Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #1

[SuziQ]

New discussion thread for the forum.

[shadowraiths]

Thanks Suzi & Mods/Admins for making this happen!

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j304/shadowraiths/Smilies/5fabdb77.gif


Btw, I think the following would be good candidates for this forum as well.

Erika Dalquist, Chris Jenkins, & Michael Noll
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6815

Scott Radel
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35959

Patrick Kycia
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29829

[SeriouslySearching]

Great! Thanks, Mods! WOOHOO!

[SuziQ]

Ok guys, how do we want to do this? List cases under State grouping. Or create a new thread for every single case? Do we want to bring existing cases over from the missing forum? If we do that then they might have to be moved back. I'll let you guys fight it out. It makes no difference to me. lol.

ETA: if you decide that each case is to have it's own thread can we title them with Name, State, Date missing?

[shadowraiths]

From the other thread...

The way the factoids were so jumbled it looked like LE didn't want to find a unifying theme other than drunk near water. A lot of paper was dedicated to outlining male-female relationships in detail, but little attention was paid to questions such as, exactly what time did the CI see Chris other than “after supper”?

I thought the dust-up around the Tobacco Shop would lead somewhere, but LE didn’t seem to pursue very hard. Several witnesses to that incident were not interviewed by MPD, only by FBI, whose reports were not corroborated. Other witnesses or informants seem to not have been brought in for questioning and their street interviews stood, even if the result was only that they didn’t want to talk to MPD at that time.

In short, nothing was pursued very vigorously before the discovery of the body and very little since if this is the complete record. Your take??
I agree, that they did not seem to take tabacco shop bit particularly seriously did seem odd. Though, I think they had already made up their minds and were simply going through the motions. Which is one thing I totally agree with the two NYC detectives (i.e., investigate it as a possible homicide and rule it out). I also found the off-duty officer's statements to be rather odd. It seemed as if they were working a bit too hard to buttress the "inebriated story." And, of course, I found the girlfriend's behavior strange. Why wasn't she concerned about where Jenkins was at closing? And why did it take the parents to report him missing? Then there's the investigating officers and their seeming lack of actually trying to get to the bottom of things. Maybe all of this was nothing. Then again...

[SeriouslySearching]

The way we handled it on the Hilton case forum was to leave the individual cases where they were and copy them into the forum in individual threads for discussion. It seemed to work well that way. We did use States as a point with Hilton since he was up and down the East Coast. I don't know if there are enough states to go this route here tho or we could go by the years instead of individual cases. Make sense?

I started a Media Links thread and decided to include the women in a thread for a reason. I don't know if they are actually related in any way...however, the age, location, and many of them went missing from bars, too.

[RR0004]

Thanks, SS.

[SeriouslySearching]

This is well worth the read: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

[RR0004]

SS- informative read. Thanks for sharing.

[SeriouslySearching]

Here is one from Fairbanks, Alaska found last year. (Die we already have him listed somewhere?)

The body was found around 6 p.m. Monday by Chris Sandland, a diver who was searching the water for the body of 20-year-old Will Bergeson, who has been missing since Nov. 11, 2006.

Bergeson was last seen leaving the Midnite Mine Bar, in downtown Fairbanks, Griffin Park, located just in front of the Chena River.

http://www.aksuperstation.com/home/7073412.html

[RR0004]

Interesting. Would that river have been frozen over in November?

[Blink34]

The way we handled it on the Hilton case forum was to leave the individual cases where they were and copy them into the forum in individual threads for discussion. It seemed to work well that way. We did use States as a point with Hilton since he was up and down the East Coast. I don't know if there are enough states to go this route here tho or we could go by the years instead of individual cases. Make sense?

I started a Media Links thread and decided to include the women in a thread for a reason. I don't know if they are actually related in any way...however, the age, location, and many of them went missing from bars, too.

I'm fine with that, or we could develop a template for case appropriateness? Either way I think there is enough of us on here to weigh in pretty quickly if it fits, thanks for the forum SQ

[Blink34]

Here is one from Fairbanks, Alaska found last year. (Die we already have him listed somewhere?)

The body was found around 6 p.m. Monday by Chris Sandland, a diver who was searching the water for the body of 20-year-old Will Bergeson, who has been missing since Nov. 11, 2006.

Bergeson was last seen leaving the Midnite Mine Bar, in downtown Fairbanks, Griffin Park, located just in front of the Chena River.

http://www.aksuperstation.com/home/7073412.html

I dont think so SS, good find, from the article, he fits.

[Salem]

Good find on the Alaska article, SS. I'm wondering if Fairbanks LE should be alerted to the many other similar cases? I know, I know, you would think that LE across the states would inform each other, but I think it is apparent that they don't, jmo.

Salem

[SeriouslySearching]

I am debating now on doing this forum in states...then individual threads of peak interest cases (ones the detectives have reason to believe are already connected). I thought about going by years, but it could get messier that way, I think. Any ideas? I have the time at the moment to get these up and going since no one has done it yet.

[Salem]

SS - I like the state idea. It will help to "group" the cases I think.

Salem

[Salem]

Crypto and Shado - the link to Shado's work did not work for me. Any chance you can repost it or tell me how to search for it and I will go find it?

Thanks,

Salem

[Blink34]

Having the time I think lets you make the call- does it hurt us from posting on the overall issue, which is the connection to all cases per state?
The positve side is is posters locally in their state will be quick to update news links?

[SeriouslySearching]

Right! I am on it now. :) Not at all! Post away!

[shadowraiths]

Crypto and Shado - the link to Shado's work did not work for me. Any chance you can repost it or tell me how to search for it and I will go find it?

Here you go:

Moved: see General Links (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64049)

Imho, we need a general links thread. Or is it okay to post non-media links to the "media links" thread?

[SeriouslySearching]

Excellent work, Shadow! Wow! You can start a general links thread if you want. Anyone is free to jump in there and start threads! :) Whatever you choose to list from your site is great, too.

[ohwell1971]

Not sure if this helps any, but thought I'd put the link here anyway
http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing.html

[SeriouslySearching]

Everything helps! Thanks, Ohwell!

I noticed we aren't discussing much about the case at the moment. Where is everyone? :confused: We finally get a forum and everyone gets very quiet. :silenced: LOL

[ohwell1971]

Well, I'm looking around for more info :) I wish more info on the "similarities" would be released, but that's asking for a lot.

[shadowraiths]

Everything helps! Thanks, Ohwell!

I noticed we aren't discussing much about the case at the moment. Where is everyone? :confused: We finally get a forum and everyone gets very quiet. :silenced: LOL
LOL. Now that we have a forum, I'm going through my archives of things I haven't yet posted. ^_~

[SeriouslySearching]

Hmmm...I ran across that earlier.

[SuziQ]

Everyone, thank you for getting the forum up and running. It looks great. Sorry for being MIA, I had family over for dinner.

A reminder that Kristi from Channel5 news will be on Good Morning America tomorrow AM.

[shadowraiths]

Hmmm...I ran across that earlier.
Yup. Found it and added it to the General links thread.

[SeriouslySearching]

LOL Thanks...guess I will be getting up very early then! Ugh!

Thank you, too, Shadow!

[RR0004]

I've contacted my daughter out in Wisconsin. She came up with a name. Just want to make sure I spell it correctly 'cause I googled the subject line and it didn't come up. She mentioned it was a suicide in one of the lakes near her school. Never thought that there may be more ruled just that...and they wouldn't necessarily make the papers or news because of the delicacy of the matter. Plus, it can be a PR nightmare for the school involved. Also want to see how more I can find in the NY area. This whole business sounds very familiar.

[RR0004]

Oh...BTW...this forum is not that easy to find on the general board...unless I've missed it...I went through the old link.

[SeriouslySearching]

It is located under spotlighted cases...it is the first one listed. :)

[SuziQ]

The below case is the type of thing that freaks me out. The guys just vanish. And within minutes. Why would this man leave if he was waiting for a girl to come out of the bathroom? Why would he just up and wander on down to a river and fall in?

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s414698.shtml?cat=63

Patrick McNeill was drinking with friends at an Upper East Side bar on February 16, 1997. His parents tell 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS that he was waiting for a girl to come out of the restroom and then they were going to return to Fordham University together. When the woman left the restroom, McNeill was gone. His body was recovered 11 miles down river near a Brooklyn pier on April 7, 1997. Officials found no signs of foul play and ruled his death a drowning.

[crypto6]

Everything helps! Thanks, Ohwell!

I noticed we aren't discussing much about the case at the moment. Where is everyone? :confused: We finally get a forum and everyone gets very quiet. :silenced: LOL

The threadkiller again!

[aussie_mum]

Hey guys, I have just been reading the last day or so. And this case is intriguing. I am totally sucked in. Is it possible please for a map of where this is happening to be put up? I have no idea where it is or how the states are near each other. Also maybe another map that shows where bodies have been found and where they went missing.

I am guessing it is fairly cold there..... I find it interesting that no drownings in the summer? Here is a Oz drinkers tend to go for a swim without thinking of the dangers of swimming drunk. If no drownings in warmer weather then death by misadventure can surely be ruled out in some of these cases. What was the weather like at the times when these young men went missing?

Are these college towns? Are there less people around in the holidays so less oportunity? Do all colleges have their holidays at the same time?

And it seems so many have gone just like that.... what are some reasons they would just up and leave without telling friends? One idea of mine is if they have been drugged they may have an urge to be sick or get some fresh air and think they will be back in a minute.

[Salem]

I think everyone is out trying to catch up on all the reading :)

Okay - in Shado's general thread - I would really like to PrayersforMaura's list, Shado's links and SS's drug stuff. If we could keep that where we can go back and refer to it quickly that would be so great!

Then some thoughts - WalMart uses the smiley face. Possible connection for a traveling salesperson? They also have pharmacies in many of their stores, so could be a drug connection.

Then, some of these men went missing after leaving a party. That means the perp had to know about the party and be in the general vicinity or maybe even at the party? I think there are fewer men leaving parties scenarios - so it might be easier to track down.

Salem

[crypto6]

The below case is the type of thing that freaks me out. The guys just vanish. And within minutes. Why would this man leave if he was waiting for a girl to come out of the bathroom? Why would he just up and wander on down to a river and fall in?

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s414698.shtml?cat=63

Patrick McNeill was drinking with friends at an Upper East Side bar on February 16, 1997. His parents tell 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS that he was waiting for a girl to come out of the restroom and then they were going to return to Fordham University together. When the woman left the restroom, McNeill was gone. His body was recovered 11 miles down river near a Brooklyn pier on April 7, 1997. Officials found no signs of foul play and ruled his death a drowning.

Offhanded thought after reading the McNeill story, although it applies to others in our loose group of victims: What will make a young male leave a young lady waiting for a ride? Or disappear suddenly from his friends at a bar? The only thing I can think of to accomplish this in a discreet manner is an(other) attractive female. Although some of the cases had notable confrontations (Chris Jenkins) associated with the disappearance, others have a “vanished into thin air” feel. Is it possible a woman is involved?

C6

[Salem]

I'm so far behind - I didn't even know we were on page 2, now I have to go back and catch up again :)

Salem

[RR0004]

Thanks, Crypto...that's one of the stories I remember hearing about firsthand on the news. I think, if my memory serves me correctly (not always the case, I'm afraid), there was a news item on the "Smiley Face" killer(s) out of the NY metro area.

[RR0004]

OOPS- THANKS SUZIQ!

It must be late!

[Salem]

Aussiemom - there is a map in the general links. Shadowraith has put together a very nice map that shows the locations of the victims as it travels across the northern US.

Very possible a woman is involved Crypto. Shadow mentions something about a female truck driver.

What would make someone disappear like that? I think in the Chris Jenkins story there is a clue. There were some off duty cops there that night working security. One of them mentions in his report how "drunk" Chris looked, glassy eyed, etc. However, IIRC Chris had a fairly low BAC. I'm thinking that this cop was looking at Chris as the drug was taking effect. So whoever slipped him the drug, then discreetly slipped Chris out.

Depending on what type of drug is being used, it would take 10-20 minutes for it to take affect. Big question.... would the beginning "feelings" of the drug make someone want to go outside for air? Like when you drink to much, or dance to much and you just need to go outside and breathe?

And SusieQ - thinking about your ex-boyfriend story. It could have something to do with this. Maybe the drug had not taken complete effect and when the perp tried to encourage your boyfriend to go with him, your boyfriend got pissed off and started making noise. So far, it doesn't appear that the state of Colorado is involved, but you never know.

Okay - I think I wrote a short book here. Enough for the moment.

Salem

[aussie_mum]

Thanks salem, I am unable to get that map to work..... :( It just comes up with a blank screen. I am just having a look on google earth at the moment..... but it has no state lines (lol obviously).... will have to search for just a normal map.

[SeriouslySearching]

C6~ I never thought about that angle...a woman luring them away. Reminds me of the Sirens. Interesting theory. Sure...it could happen.

[aussie_mum]

Ok so I have just worked out where everything is.... silly mummy... it's not all about technology! I used the atlas sitting within arms reach. *sigh*

Anyway of getting info on similar deaths from Canada? Do you guys have to use a passport to travel to and from Cananda?

[RR0004]

From what I've heard...it makes you feel REALLY drunk. I had an experience once when I could have sworn someone put something in my drink at a club. I HAD to leave and proceeded to get ill outside. Thank goodness I was with a friend. I didn't know what was happening to me as I hadn't had much to drink up to that point. Actually, my drink tasted kinda funny so I stopped drinking it. So, to answer the question...yup you sure would want to leave to get some air!

[SeriouslySearching]

Depending on what type of drug is being used, it would take 10-20 minutes for it to take affect. Big question.... would the beginning "feelings" of the drug make someone want to go outside for air? Like when you drink to much, or dance to much and you just need to go outside and breathe?I can speak to this first hand. First thing I noticed was feeling "flushed" or lightheaded. I felt a warm rush. Within the next few minutes, I began to feel somewhat dizzy and a bit disoriented. I still knew what I was doing, but felt somehow disconnected from what was going on. I was told later at that point I had begun to slur my words like I had too much to drink (which I had only two very small glasses of wine about 45 minutes apart), but I was still walking. I had the presence of mind to ask the bartender to call a taxi for me. I did step outside to get fresh air because I was queasy while waiting on the taxi, but people could still see me. By the time the taxi arrived, I went blank and could no longer stand alone or walk. I woke up the next morning very groggy and found it difficult to breathe. It was hours later before my head cleared completely.

[shadowraiths]

Thanks salem, I am unable to get that map to work..... :( It just comes up with a blank screen.
If you have either javascript or view remote images disabled, it won't work. I'm using the googlemaps interface (which requires javascript and loads their remote mapping images).

C6~ I never thought about that angle...a woman luring them away. Reminds me of the Sirens. Interesting theory. Sure...it could happen.

Yup. It seems plausible to me. Esp if they've been drugged. No need for too much strength to "tip" them into the water, so to speak...

[aussie_mum]

If you have either javascript or view remote images disabled, it won't work. I'm using the googlemaps interface (which requires javascript and loads their remote mapping images).

Oh I don't know what that means! But I am using google maps now... hmmmm I will just leave it for now I guess. Probably I touched something I shouldn't have.

[SeriouslySearching]

Chris Jenkins fought hard against his assailant. He pulled out a lot of his own hair in an effort to get his head out of the water which they believe means he was doing it in a fight for his life trying to remove their hands. Not sure a female would fit there. However, it doesn't mean that a female wasn't used as a lure.

[Salem]

Wow! That's two sleuthers in 30 seconds that have experience with these drugs.......:eek:

So... these guys get slipped a drug, walk outside, someone just casually grabs their arm and keeps walking them.... No one notices a thing because it all looks so natural. And the "being aware" but "being disconnected" part could keep them from protesting, especially if they were feeling queasy.

And if all else fails, you just wait for them to leave where ever they are, but this can't be the preferred method, because there would be no guarantee that they would leave on their own, especially because they came with friends.

There has to be a pattern to the "separation from friends part". It almost feels like the perp has to be someone these guys are familiar with, but given all the different demographics, how could that be?

Salem

[SuziQ]

Thanks everyone for sharing your personal drugging experiences. They are downright scary. I really feel this is the key here.

[SuziQ]

There has to be a pattern to the "separation from friends part". It almost feels like the perp has to be someone these guys are familiar with, but given all the different demographics, how could that be?

Salem

Maybe it was someone they met that night?

[SeriouslySearching]

Exactly. They aren't drugging a lot of people...just the one and then systematically waiting for them to be alone. Now that doesn't make sense, does it? You are right. How do they know they aren't going to go with their friends at some point?

One thing I noted on Chris' case in the paperwork was the discrepancy between the head bouncer and the other three. The other three indicate they were given orders by him to kick Chris out and not allow him back in. Then he totally rebutts them and they shut up. Did anyone catch that?

[aussie_mum]

Wow! That's two sleuthers in 30 seconds that have experience with these drugs.......:eek:

So... these guys get slipped a drug, walk outside, someone just casually grabs their arm and keeps walking them.... No one notices a thing because it all looks so natural. And the "being aware" but "being disconnected" part could keep them from protesting, especially if they were feeling queasy.

And if all else fails, you just wait for them to leave where ever they are, but this can't be the preferred method, because there would be no guarantee that they would leave on their own, especially because they came with friends.

There has to be a pattern to the "separation from friends part". It almost feels like the perp has to be someone these guys are familiar with, but given all the different demographics, how could that be?

Salem


Some ideas...

* band members
* security guys
* the guys behind the bar
* guy in a car waiting outside ready to help and offer a lift home

[RR0004]

Was an arrest made in the case of Chris Jenkins? I was reading that there was (back in 2006). In the case of Allan Radel they noticed footprints that led the police to believe that he was running away from someone.

[SeriouslySearching]

No, there has been no arrest made in Chris Jenkin's case.

[shadowraiths]

There has to be a pattern to the "separation from friends part". It almost feels like the perp has to be someone these guys are familiar with, but given all the different demographics, how could that be?
How about a nutty (adjunct) professor? Adjunct profs do stints at various colleges and university—sometimes, more than one, even, during any given semester.

[aussie_mum]

If there is one killer as such, he may drug someone every time he goes out, but he might not have a 100% pick up rate if that makes sense. Which maybe why there is no absolute pattern of Friday nights oevery second week, just groups of months.... I wish I had better ability to get whats in my brain out.

[shadowraiths]

No, there has been no arrest made in Chris Jenkin's case.
And from my understanding, they've actually closed that case. :waitasec:

[Salem]

I agree - could be someone they met that night. So someone that appears trustworthy and charming? Why don't any of the friends remember meeting anyone new that night though? Hmmmm

I like the band members idea and the guy outside waiting in a car, which goes very nicely with being lured out by a female. I'm not so sure about the bartenders and security folks though, because generally they would have to close up the bar, wipe the counters, do the dishes and get all the drunks out, so they wouldn't be able to leave right away at closing or before. But the band would stop 1/2 hour or so before the bar closed and bands often use vans to carry their equipment in.....

What is the difference between a "cargo" van and a regular van?

Salem

[SuziQ]

Exactly. They aren't drugging a lot of people...just the one and then systematically waiting for them to be alone. Now that doesn't make sense, does it? You are right. How do they know they aren't going to go with their friends at some point?

One thing I noted on Chris' case in the paperwork was the discrepancy between the head bouncer and the other three. The other three indicate they were given orders by him to kick Chris out and not allow him back in. Then he totally rebutts them and they shut up. Did anyone catch that?

I noticed that too. Now what would be the big deal about saying you kicked someone out of the bar? Bouncers rightly have to do that all the time.

[RR0004]

...on godlikeproductions it says there was...and a second suspect who was in an out of state jail. Now this was a couple of years ago so I'm not sure whatever became of them.

[SuziQ]

If there is one killer as such, he may drug someone every time he goes out, but he might not have a 100% pick up rate if that makes sense. Which maybe why there is no absolute pattern of Friday nights oevery second week, just groups of months.... I wish I had better ability to get whats in my brain out.

He waits until the perfect set of circumstances come into play and makes his move.

[Salem]

How about a nutty (adjunct) professor? Adjunct profs do stints at various colleges and university—sometimes, more than one, even, during any given semester.

Its a good possibility. Do they work like substitute teachers? A week here, a week there? Does each state require its own license so that whoever this professor might be, he/she would have to have a license to teach in each of these states the victims are coming from? Or do you even need a license at the college level, is that just for grammer/high school?

If this is only one or two people, they appear to travel frequently. If the Alaska case is related, maybe they were on vacation?

I'm beginning to think we have two perps, minimum, here. I think that is because of the way the "friend separation" and the "drugs" are involved.


Salem

[RR0004]

What I've noticed reading through a lot of these stories is that someone in the bar notices HOW DRUNK these guys "seem"...some later have showed very little BAC. Now, that could be the effect of a drug.

[RR0004]

Before I call it a night, I also think it's quite plausible that someone outside throws them in a van.

[SuziQ]

But the band would stop 1/2 hour or so before the bar closed and bands often use vans to carry their equipment in.....

What is the difference between a "cargo" van and a regular van?

Salem

And most of these guys vanish at or near closing time. Bands travel. And they usually use a cargo van. A cargo van is boxier with no windows in the back like a passenger van would have. They also don't have back seats. Just the two up front.

[shadowraiths]

What is the difference between a "cargo" van and a regular van?
A cargo van doesn't have windows in the back section. Here's an example of what they look like.

http://www.tomthetoyman.com/images/Van1.jpg

http://www.tomthetoyman.com/images/Van3.jpg

[SuziQ]

RR, true. The level of intoxication doesn't always match the BAC. And remember Chris' mother mentions that he was driven around in a van.

[Salem]

Okay - I'm thinking this band thing shows some real good possibilities. Now it is time to see if any of these bars had live music and if so, who....

Only - I have a headache and have to go to bed now so it will have to wait till tomorrow.

Thank you SusieQ & Shadow for the cargo van descriptions!

And I agree RR - I think it is very important that some folks thought these young men might have been pretty drunk when in fact they were not.

Night all!

Salem

[shadowraiths]

And remember Chris' mother mentions that he was driven around in a van.
That's one of the things that had me :waitasec:

She also mentioned that he was tortured. Yet, when the talking head pointed out that they found no signs of physical trauma, she (or one of the detectives, don't recall which) said he was mentally tortured. Which again had me :waitasec:

[RR0004]

Night everyone. Hold down the fort!!

Those cargo vans seem to be the mode of transportation for all kinds of abductions. It seems to explain their disappearance "into thin air", as was mentioned.

[SuziQ]

I keep remembering that Brian Schaffer told his friends he was going to go up and talk to the band. He's then on video outside the front doors talking to some girls, goes back in and is never seen going back out. There was an employee entrance door that had a camera that took a pic everytime someone came or went through that door. Brian was never found in those pics. How the heck did he leave the bar? Was he stuffed inside something? A fricken drumset case or something? I sure would like to see the pics of the employee entrance.

Shado, Mom's comment was puzzling. But I'm thinking she's gotten good info about a van. Probably from the detectives?

[SeriouslySearching]

And from my understanding, they've actually closed that case. :waitasec:Yes, but that was before it was declared a Homicide. Now, they have no suspect or POI...and have also decided not to pursue it further. :confused: WTH?!

[SeriouslySearching]

I think it is possible she got the information from the PI and not the detectives. If you recall, they were given information that he was taken to a cargo van in the parking garage where part of the feather was found. According to those reports, it was part of the gang which confronted him outside.

I think the band might be out of the question. By the time they get their gear loaded up into whatever they have (it isn't always a cargo van!)...it is usually getting very early into the wee hours well after 2:00 am. They don't load out until the bar officially closes as a rule. I also don't know many bands that don't have buddies hanging out with them until then either.

[SeriouslySearching]

I hope this case goes to fruition and they close many of these cases in spite of LE's efforts to thwart them. I know many of you disagree with me calling LE and the FBI into question time and time again...but if what these men (might I mention are highly decorated retired LE officers) are saying is true...then it will show how ineffective these agencies have been when it comes to missing person cases across the country. It could be the best thing that ever happened to forward how things are approached with LE in the future. One of the smartest things that the Jenkins did was to hire a PI to run a parallel investigation. I applaud them!

[aussie_mum]

I didn't want to start another thread, but how about Justin Gaines as another possible victim?

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55860&highlight=college+student+body

Justin Gaines, 18, college student missing in Atlanta
GWINNETT COUNTY, Ga. -- A college student has been reported missing when he did not come home after going out to Wild Bill's in Gwinnett County.

Officials said they have started an investigation into the case of an 18-year-old missing since Thursday night. Gwinnett County authorities said Justin Gaines' mother filed a police report Sunday after he didn't return home.

According to the police report, Gaine's mother, Erika Wilson, said that her son came home Thursday and told her he was going out with friends. He was dropped off at Wild Bill's that night. Later that evening, Gaines called a friend to pick him up but the friend told him he couldn't. Gaines has not been seen or heard from since.

Also http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/knapp_jason.html (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/knapp_jason.html) not exactly the same either but also a male college student.

[SeriouslySearching]

Absolutely he should be included in the lists! I will get right on making a thread for people in his area. Thanks and keep it up! There are so many around the country which have many similarities that we should be aware of here. :) Great job!

[shadowraiths]

I think it is possible she got the information from the PI and not the detectives. If you recall, they were given information that he was taken to a cargo van in the parking garage where part of the feather was found. According to those reports, it was part of the gang which confronted him outside.
Oh, that's right. The feather in the parking garage! I completely forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder! So that explains the van theory. What is still questionable is the mental torture allegation.

Imho, unless they can provide some sort of credible evidence that said psychological torture was over and above what a kidnap victim experiences, then the torture comment really makes no sense. And, while, the stages an abductee experiences can most certainly be characterized as torturous, such is not technically considered psychological torture. Nor can it be assumed that he was psychologically tortured without some sort of reliable and valid corroborating evidence.

If however they do have compelling evidence that this is the case, then that really raises the bar for this alleged group of killers. For example, physical torture can be carried out by thugs. Those who really know what they're doing can carry out such without leaving visible signs of trauma. Though, a thorough autopsy would still reveal signs of physical torture. Psychological torture on the other hand requires a great deal of sophistication and reasonable knowledge as it pertains to psychology. Which means someone with knowledge in the field would be involved. And, if it's pods, as they claim, then it would need to be several someones with said knowledge.

Whatever the case, it will be most interesting to hear what they come up with.

[aussie_mum]

Absolutely he should be included in the lists! I will get right on making a thread for people in his area. Thanks and keep it up! There are so many around the country which have many similarities that we should be aware of here. :) Great job!

Thanks ss. I am still fairly new to this and just throw ideas around here and there every so often. I was too shy to start a thread on him.:blushing: But I hope either way excluded or included it is helpful.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks ss. I am still fairly new to this and just throw ideas around here and there every so often. I was too shy to start a thread on him.:blushing: But I hope either way excluded or included it is helpful.Awww, don't be shy! We don't bite much. LOL :blowkiss:

Keep in mind you are more than welcome to start any thread you want!! It is helpful to put it in states tho...so more can be added to the list. :)

If I didn't properly welcome you: Welcome to WS, Aussie_mum!! I warn you...it is addictive and making new friends reaps large rewards in my book.

[aussie_mum]

thanks ss.... I have been around a while, but really only started threads in the jury room.... about stuff I know for sure about lol. I understand the keeping within the states thing, but I didn't want to make a fool of myself lol.

[SeriouslySearching]

Stop worrying about what other people think! Just go for it! :) We are all in this thing together here.

[SeriouslySearching]

I don't mind saying after just reviewing what we already have...I am just blown away by this and I hope that everything the Detectives have to connect the cases is accurate. I want to believe it, but a part of me still says "caution...too good to be true".

[SeriouslySearching]

I want to say that no matter if a person ends up with a death besides drowning...they should be included if they fit the other criteria. Men are going missing from the bar scene far too often and even if they are found in different circumstances...we should include them in what we believe are possibly connected...just in case. At this point, we have no other real explanation of how they ended up dead or missing after leaving a bar. It is the connection. Which I don't mind mentioning...we have many women from the same area with the same connection. It is the reason I put their thread here, too. This might not just be a gender thing or a drowning thing...this might be a killing thing.

[Blink34]

I want to say that no matter if a person ends up with a death besides drowning...they should be included if they fit the other criteria. Men are going missing from the bar scene far too often and even if they are found in different circumstances...we should include them in what we believe are possibly connected...just in case. At this point, we have no other real explanation of how they ended up dead or missing after leaving a bar. It is the connection. Which I don't mind mentioning...we have many women from the same area with the same connection. It is the reason I put their thread here, too. This might not just be a gender thing or a drowning thing...this might be a killing thing.

I second this and feel it is critical- think inclusion of a case and then work backwords.

[SeriouslySearching]

Have you taken a look at the women who have been missing or found murdered in the area? If not, I would say everyone should. Women walk out of a bar in Madison...and end up dead, too. Kelly Nolan is one of those. I want so much to find what happened to her. It makes me angry.

[Blink34]

I dont know if anyone caught the detectives appearance on GMA this morning, Here's my feedback:

1) I did not learn anything new, but note that the smiley appeared in 5 cases, and the sinsiwa appeared in 1, and was related to another site.
2) The detectives said they are going public because they are out of funds for further investigation, but unless I missed it, did not mention a way for them to get more, which I think was an error. Not suggesting they solicit publicly, but are there grants, can they get "manhours" from LE locally on a per case basis, etc.. I would have liked to see them be more specific on what they need to continue their efforts.. This absolutely needs to be seen through, or it's just another "theory".
3) There are 19 other cases they have not even had a chance to review in relation to this theory, they believe 10-15 could be connected.
4) Odd that they did not comment on the suspected origin of the smiley face, and when asked about their theory about "who or "whom" is involved, they said they were hopeful of a successful prosecution so they would NOT be more specific..
5) I believe there is an error in the entire report in that they are reporting Chris Jenkins case is the only one "classified" as a homicide. Scott Javins, who disappeared on 5/24/2002 found 5 years later on 10/12/07 remains in his car in river, is classified as a homicide but police won't say why.
6) When prrompted to give more info on "who fits the profile"- they stated very high GPA, seperated from friends, and young men in age group. My take on that is that if these men are mostly out of school, what is the relevance? They did not mention the alcohol link which I found unusual.

[SeriouslySearching]

Let's be clear...the PEOPLE that should expend funds are the local PD and the FBI. They don't have to give people their address to add to the funds. The people who should be working this case...left them behind as closed or even open with no evidence.

I don't have any thought other than this is going against the grain. I am glad they are, but they are going to find many things that come up against them. They know this and they are willing to buck everyone...I am all for them and what they know. Bring it on.

[Blink34]

Let's be clear...the PEOPLE that should expend funds are the local PD and the FBI. They don't have to give people their address to add to the funds.

I don't have any thought other than this is going against the grain. I am glad they are, but they are going to find many things that come up against them. They know this and they are willing to buck everyone...I am all for them and what they know. Bring it on.

Agreed, I would seek to have them acknowledge how the GP can go about requesting that from their LE sources- how do we support them getting what they need?? These cases have been linked several times and "died on the vine"- I dont want to see this happen again

[SeriouslySearching]

I can tell you exactly how they "died on the vine"...lack of evidence. They did not pursue it like these Detectives did. It is always what we hear..."We cannot establish this or that because of lack of evidence." This statement alone has closed many cases. I believe they bring new evidence.

[Blink34]

I can tell you exactly how they "died on the vine"...lack of evidence. They did not pursue it like these Detectives did. It is always what we hear..."We cannot establish this or that because of lack of evidence." This statement alone has closed many cases. I believe they bring new evidence.

I agree, and would add that he philosophy of Start with homicide and exclude as you go is a practice that should be followed by persons investigating MP cases as a standard, it has been my ecperience, that is not the case.

[SuziQ]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S426475.shtml?cat=1

A 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS investigation into the mysterious river deaths of young men around the country has now gone national.

Investigative reporter Kristi Piehl appeared on ABC NEWS’ ‘Good Morning America’ to discuss the case with detectives Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duarte.

Watch Monday morning’s interview in the viewer on the right….

[SuziQ]

Christopher Jenkins Timeline-Channel5 Investigation
A series of investigative videos over the past two years. Click on the player on the right of the page:

FEB. 17, 2006: We reveal that the case is open

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s417975.shtml?v=1

MARCH 29, 2006: Water testing done with fake body

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s417976.shtml?v=1

JULY 31, 2007: County decides not to file charges

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s417977.shtml?v=1

ETA: the last link is missing the video. I have sent an email to the station asking for the vid.

[eve]

Oh, that's right. The feather in the parking garage! I completely forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder! So that explains the van theory. What is still questionable is the mental torture allegation.

Imho, unless they can provide some sort of credible evidence that said psychological torture was over and above what a kidnap victim experiences, then the torture comment really makes no sense. And, while, the stages an abductee experiences can most certainly be characterized as torturous, such is not technically considered psychological torture. Nor can it be assumed that he was psychologically tortured without some sort of reliable and valid corroborating evidence.

If however they do have compelling evidence that this is the case, then that really raises the bar for this alleged group of killers. For example, physical torture can be carried out by thugs. Those who really know what they're doing can carry out such without leaving visible signs of trauma. Though, a thorough autopsy would still reveal signs of physical torture. Psychological torture on the other hand requires a great deal of sophistication and reasonable knowledge as it pertains to psychology. Which means someone with knowledge in the field would be involved. And, if it's pods, as they claim, then it would need to be several someones with said knowledge.

Whatever the case, it will be most interesting to hear what they come up with.

Ok, I'm catching up after a busy weekend. Glad to have a forum for this, thanks to all!

I think the torture information is being held close to the vest. I think the Jenkins have a source for this info through their PI and the detectives pursuing this case. I think it is more than mere speculation because it has been mentioned with some specificity - mental torture, riding around in a van, etc., although the source has not been revealed. I am beginning to think they have a snitch. I can't see how they would come up with so much theory about these "pods" without an informant.

Eve

[SuziQ]

Detectives Chase 'Smiley Face' Murder Mystery


Retired NYC Detectives Spend 11 Years Connecting the Drowning Deaths of 40 Young Men Across the Country


By KRISTI PIEHL
April 28, 2008

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4738621&page=1

A link to reader comments:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=4738621

I found this comment interesting:

Pertaining to the "Smiley Murder---" It may be the work of an unknown college Fraternal group to get accepted in the fraternal organization, such as "skull". See what colleges the missing kids went to, are these Frats also in those areas? How about the disapearance time, are they at the same time of the year where the frats initiation taks place? Since most the missing were smart and above average, is this Frat or "Gangs" trying to prove that they are smarter? Detectives Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duarte may need to dig deeper in these and other common areas. ZO, Texas

[aj1020]

Yay for the forum!! Nice work on getting things organized everyone! I'll be back... need to go catch up! :)

[aj1020]

I find it interesting that one of the commonalities that "fits the profile" for these young men is a high GPA. I mean you could walk into any bar in a college town and see handsome, outgoing, college-age guys that don't necessarily excel in the classroom. The fact that they had high GPAs almost makes me think that they were "followed" in some capacity for a certain amount of time before their deaths - perhaps the killers tracked their activities and picked their targets - choosing men who had above-average success in the classroom.

That said, I don't know why a higher GPA/book smarts would be sought by the killers.

[SuziQ]

Did a Serial Killer Group Hit Chicago?


With all the hoopla that surrounded Y2K festivities, you might remember the news story of Brian Welzien. Welzien wandered away from the Ambassador East hotel on New Year's Eve of 1999 and did not return. At the time police speculated that he may have possibly been drunk, fell into Lake Michigan and drowned. That scenario seemed to be correct when Welzien's body was eventually found in March of 2000 along a Gary, Indiana beach. More at link:

http://chicagoist.com/2008/04/26/did_a_serial_ki.php

[SuziQ]

Hockeymom, I hope you don't mind me bringing your post over from the victims thread. I thought it was interesting and didn't want anyone to miss it.

Today, 07:35 AM
hockeymom (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=110) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_2169898", true);
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: clifton park,ny
Posts: 2,090


Doctor Michael Baden to do 2nd autopsy on Josh Szostak.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/sto...date=4/28/2008 (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684276&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=4/28/2008)

[shadowraiths]

I found this comment interesting:

Pertaining to the "Smiley Murder---" It may be the work of an unknown college Fraternal group to get accepted in the fraternal organization, such as "skull". See what colleges the missing kids went to, are these Frats also in those areas? How about the disapearance time, are they at the same time of the year where the frats initiation taks place? Since most the missing were smart and above average, is this Frat or "Gangs" trying to prove that they are smarter? Detectives Kevin Gannon and Anthony Duarte may need to dig deeper in these and other common areas. ZO, Texas
The reader is possibly taking of the Skull and Bones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones). It's been around for ages and a lot of conspiracy stories surround this particular college fraternity.

[Blink34]

I hope this case goes to fruition and they close many of these cases in spite of LE's efforts to thwart them. I know many of you disagree with me calling LE and the FBI into question time and time again...but if what these men (might I mention are highly decorated retired LE officers) are saying is true...then it will show how ineffective these agencies have been when it comes to missing person cases across the country. It could be the best thing that ever happened to forward how things are approached with LE in the future. One of the smartest things that the Jenkins did was to hire a PI to run a parallel investigation. I applaud them!

Based on my personal experience and reviewing these cases, I agree completely. Not placing blame, just saying the "approach" is wrong and allowing perps to thrive- I would not go to my dentist for a gyn exam (not to be glib but trying to drive the point) so missing person's cases should be investigated by "specialists trained just for that..", imo

[eve]

The reader is possibly taking of the Skull and Bones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_Bones). It's been around for ages and a lot of conspiracy stories surround this particular college fraternity.

Bush Sr. and John Kerry were members. Among other esteemed politicians and businessmen. Somehow I highly doubt this group is murdering young men who in fact seem somewhat similar in demographics to its own members. Most of these young men, while not of the prominence and wealth of Bush and Kerry, perhaps, have been described as scholastic achievers from "good" families. Good-looking, well-spoken, athletic, fun-loving, like to party and popular, for the most part. Almost fraternity-types, themselves, imo.

Eve

[Blink34]

Bush Sr. and John Kerry were members. Among other esteemed politicians and businessmen. Somehow I highly doubt this group is murdering young men who in fact seem somewhat similar in demographics to its own members. Most of these young men, while not of the prominence and wealth of Bush and Kerry, perhaps, have been described as scholastic achievers from "good" families. Good-looking, well-spoken, athletic, fun-loving, like to party and popular, for the most part. Almost fraternity-types, themselves, imo.

Eve

I dont think they are involved certainly, per se, but I believe there are similarities in terms of structure, maybe even in the reverse, like perhaps making the men that COULD be in the actual Bones club are there targets? Sorry for the bad analogy but for lack of a better one, revenge of the nerds

[fran]

Hockeymom, I hope you don't mind me bringing your post over from the victims thread. I thought it was interesting and didn't want anyone to miss it.

Today, 07:35 AM
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: clifton park,ny
Posts: 2,090


Doctor Michael Baden to do 2nd autopsy on Josh Szostak.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/sto...date=4/28/2008 (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684276&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=4/28/2008)


I wonder if they checked that recovered stolen vehicle for any traces of Joshua? IF NOT, they SHOULD! IMHO

I'm glad Dr. Baden is getting involved. He definitely knows his stuff!

fran


http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684276&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=4/28/2008

<<snip>>

After his disappearance on Dec. 23, 2007, Joshua Szostak's cellphone was found outside a Port of Albany Department of Environmental Conservation garage where a car had been stolen. The car was driven to the Port of Albany and abandoned. There was no trace of Szostak at that location.

[Blink34]

I wonder if they checked that recovered stolen vehicle for any traces of Joshua? IF NOT, they SHOULD! IMHO

I'm glad Dr. Baden is getting involved. He definitely knows his stuff!

fran


http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=684276&category=FRONTPG&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=4/28/2008

<<snip>>

After his disappearance on Dec. 23, 2007, Joshua Szostak's cellphone was found outside a Port of Albany Department of Environmental Conservation garage where a car had been stolen. The car was driven to the Port of Albany and abandoned. There was no trace of Szostak at that location.

Was the car recovered?

[DeltaDawn]

When I watched GMA this morning I did pick up one new fact which the detectives had not said before, atleast I missed it before.

The dates and times of some of the dissappearances coincide and yet are 400 to 600 miles apart.

That is what has lead them to believe that there is a cult or group spread out over the country doing this at specific times. Then the smiley faces and similiar graffitti at the sites, members names etc.

I think if they ever put out a list of all the vics they suspect then we will be able to see which occurred in different parts of the country on the exact same night.

Maybe we should start to go through the missing men's dates of going missing and we may be able to find some that are on their list they haven't made public.

There are over 80 comments now on the GMA site and they are quite an interesting read.

[MCDRAW]

Offhanded thought after reading the McNeill story, although it applies to others in our loose group of victims: What will make a young male leave a young lady waiting for a ride? Or disappear suddenly from his friends at a bar? The only thing I can think of to accomplish this in a discreet manner is an(other) attractive female. Although some of the cases had notable confrontations (Chris Jenkins) associated with the disappearance, others have a “vanished into thin air” feel. Is it possible a woman is involved?

C6
Good idea. Maybe she is the one that picks the target. I think there is a good chance that a woman is involved.

[SeriouslySearching]

When I watched GMA this morning I did pick up one new fact which the detectives had not said before, atleast I missed it before.

The dates and times of some of the dissappearances coincide and yet are 400 to 600 miles apart.

That is what has lead them to believe that there is a cult or group spread out over the country doing this at specific times. Then the smiley faces and similiar graffitti at the sites, members names etc.

I think if they ever put out a list of all the vics they suspect then we will be able to see which occurred in different parts of the country on the exact same night.

Maybe we should start to go through the missing men's dates of going missing and we may be able to find some that are on their list they haven't made public.

There are over 80 comments now on the GMA site and they are quite an interesting read.We have their list in the forum. I haven't checked on that yet tho.

[hockeymom]

Was the car recovered?

The car was recovered,and at the Port of Albany where supposedly the body went in the water. The Albany PD,only checked for fingerprints on the steering wheel,and the drivers side handle (none found that I know of,but it was winter). No DNA or testing in any other part of the vehicle. Also I'm not positive,but I believe his cell phone was found not at the place the car was stolen from,but where they found the car.
I listened to the interview with the Dad and I'm positive there was foul play.The Port of Albany is in the total opposite direction of where Josh's car was parked. He would have had to steal a vehicle and then drive in the opposite direction from his car/home. He also would have had to park the car and walk another 1,000 feet or so to get to the river. It was winter in upstate NY,not exactly a time for a nice stroll along the water.

[DeltaDawn]

We have their list in the forum. I haven't checked on that yet tho.

I thought their entire list wasn't public yet, just the Minna and WIsc cases? They also have linked cases in PA, NY etc but those names were not released from the detectives

[SuziQ]

I thought their entire list wasn't public yet, just the Minna and WIsc cases? They also have linked cases in PA, NY etc but those names were not released from the detectives

On a map in a Channel5 vid, they also show the state of Washington.

Thanks for the GMA link. The video is more complete than the one I found and posted this morning. Going to watch in now, then off to read the comments there.

[shadowraiths]

The dates and times of some of the dissappearances coincide and yet are 400 to 600 miles apart.
Here's what I have, though, this may not even be remotely accurate:
1997-12-31: Ryan Getz, Student, 21, East Lansing, MI [Drowning]
1997-12-31: Larry Andrews, N/A, 22, NYC, NY [Drowning]

[removed non-identical dates]

2006-04-01: Wade Michael Lurk, Student, 17, Ste. Genevieve, MO [Drowning]
2006-04-01: Brian Shaffer, Student, 27, Columbus, OH [Missing]

[DeltaDawn]

Here's what I have, though, this may not even be remotely accurate:1997-12-31: Ryan Getz, Student, 21, East Lansing, MI [Drowning]

1997-12-31: Larry Andrews, N/A, 22, NYC, NY [Drowning]


[removed non-identical dates]


2006-04-01: Wade Michael Lurk, Student, 17, Ste. Genevieve, MO [Drowning]

2006-04-01: Brian Shaffer, Student, 27, Columbus, OH
[Missing]



Thank you Shadow ..I also thought that there maybe a couple on Halloween night of the same year. But I am not sure on that at this point.

[DeltaDawn]

On a map in a Channel5 vic, they also show the state of Washington.

Thanks for the GMA link. The video is more complete than the one I found and posted this morning. Going to watch in now, then off to read the comments there.


Some of those comments , esspecially one or two from a lady who'se son possiblity had a similiar circumstance in a bar in one of these areas is interesting. He put a purple glass on the bar and asked for a refill. Three women came up and he turned to talk to them , quickly turned back and was watching the bartender take a green glass from in front of a group of men and give it to him. The men didn't protest either. The next thing he took a sip it was bitter. He drank very little but still was effected by the drink.

[MissHolmes]

While reading the comments over on the GMA site regarding these murders, I came across this post:

Look for the Walking man who was mentioned in Stephen Kings book "The Stand"...he is also called Randall Flagg and he wore a Smiley face button on his jacket..he was pure Evil ...his other name is "Legion"
Posted by:
whymustIbethechosenone (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=user&loginCode=%7B5B5B6AED-F3EC-43C8-92C8-D3E746A99ED7%7D) 12:37 PM

I went to Wiki and looked up Randall Flagg, there is a pic of him wearing buttons on his jacket, one of them is a smiley face with a bullet hole at the top of his head. And a quote from Stephen King, the creator of Randall Flagg, said about him ".......somebody who was always on the outside looking in and hated people who had good fellowship and good conversation and friends."

This may be way off base, but wanted to share as far as the smiley face goes.

[SeriouslySearching]

I thought their entire list wasn't public yet, just the Minna and WIsc cases? They also have linked cases in PA, NY etc but those names were not released from the detectivesOh, OK! My mind isn't clicking today. You are right, of course. :) I wonder why they haven't released those? Interesting.

Welcome to WS, MsHolmes! We did throw that one around a bit on an earlier thread. While it is odd, I couldn't make a real connection from the story to the crimes in this case.

[SuziQ]

A question that I've been meaning to post and got sidetracked this weekend.

Do we know exactly why the ME changed the COD for Chris Jenkins from accidental to Homicide? It couldn't have been just because his parents knew in their hearts it was a homicide. What did the ME see when he took a second look, that he didn't see the first time around? What was there that made him change his mind?

[TheShadow]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352960,00.html

At least 40 young men who drowned may have died by far more sinister means — serial killings at the hands of a national gang that revels in murdering young men and leaving smiley-face markings at the scene, a team of retired New York City police detectives and criminal justice investigators said Monday.
They believe the victims, including University of Minnesota (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352960,00.html#) student Chris Jenkins and Fordham University student Patrick McNeill, didn't accidentally drown but were actually killed by members of the so-called "Smiley Face Gang."

Man this is so insane!

[SuziQ]

Another interesting comment from the GMA article:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=4738621
superexcitedguy 12 - I was also a native of La Crosse and attended college there. I also worked in law enforcement for the county of LaX. I will back up your claims that many people speculate the involvement of an officer or somebody dressed up as one. I remember a few of my friends and I would go out after midnight and sit in our car....doing a "look out" at RiverSide and how we had many thoughts going through our "heads" of who could be doing this.
Posted by:
Oceangreen22 (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=user&loginCode={5D97C512-1D1B-4D6B-BEB8-BBE5FD7EB5E0}) 12:39 PM

[SeriouslySearching]

Excellent question, Suzi. I don't know unless it was the circumstances of his clothing being left on, the way his arms were in front of him, and various other things which preclude a normal drowning in the decision LE came to. Their theory didn't match the evidence.

Here is what they said: When the detectives took a look at Jenkins' death, they discovered that the position of his body and other physical evidence proved that the college student didn't drown accidentally. The cause of death on Jenkins' death certificate was changed to "homicide."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4738621&page=1

[Jeana (DP)]

Detectives: 40 Drowning Victims May Have Been Murdered by 'Smiley Face Gang'

Monday , April 28, 2008

At least 40 young men who drowned may have died by far more sinister means — serial killings at the hands of a national gang that revels in murdering young men and leaving smiley-face markings at the scene, a team of retired New York City police detectives and criminal justice investigators said Monday.

They believe the victims, including University of Minnesota student Chris Jenkins and Fordham University student Patrick McNeill, didn't accidentally drown but were actually killed by members of the so-called "Smiley Face Gang."

A smiley-face symbol was found painted at some of the drowning locations — in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Wisconsin and Iowa, they said.

"They're telling you here that they're into evil, they're very happy as most serial killers are," said retired NYPD Det. Kevin Gannon. "They're content with their work and what they're doing and the fact that they're thwarting the police."

Jenkins' body was discovered in the Mississippi River about four months after he disappeared in 2003. To police, his death looked like an accidental fall after a night of drinking.

McNeill drowned in New York City in 1997, also after bar-hopping.

The task force that formed to solve the crimes believes a national crime network has killed at least 40 men — mostly white college students and 20-somethings, often with high grades and impressive athletic records — in about 10 different states.

The team investigated 89 separate cases dating back a decade and said it had connected 40 of them through a variety of evidence — including matching sets of gang graffiti.

It was Jenkins' death, however, that tipped off police. His body was found encased in ice in the Mississippi, his hands folded across his chest in an odd pose that was inconsistent with a chance drowning.

Gannon and another NYPD detective, Anthony Duarte — along with the other investigators — believe a gang of killers has been trolling interstates from New York to Wisconsin, staging the drownings.

The FBI and local authorities don't agree with the theory that all the drownings are linked and the work of a gang.

But families of the victims have long believed their loved ones' deaths were suspicious.

"The people that murdered Chris have murdered before him and they've also murdered people after him, Jan Jenkins said on "Good Morning America." "Those people are still at large."

[SieSie]

We just got a forum for this, here's the link:
Deaths of Male College Students/The River Killers (http://websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=146)

I definitely have a lot of catching up to do - some of these cases are 10 years old and it's in multiple states. This is going to be a hard one to follow, thank heavens the mods gave us the new forum for it!! :D

[MissHolmes]

Another interesting comment from the GMA article:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=story&id=4738621
superexcitedguy 12 - I was also a native of La Crosse and attended college there. I also worked in law enforcement for the county of LaX. I will back up your claims that many people speculate the involvement of an officer or somebody dressed up as one. I remember a few of my friends and I would go out after midnight and sit in our car....doing a "look out" at RiverSide and how we had many thoughts going through our "heads" of who could be doing this.
Posted by:
Oceangreen22 (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/comments?type=user&loginCode=%7B5D97C512-1D1B-4D6B-BEB8-BBE5FD7EB5E0%7D) 12:39 PM

SuziQ, that one also really stuck out to me. These young men would probably trust an officer. Say for instance the "officer" comes up to them, threatens them with arrest for being drunk in public, the young man goes with them or follows them. Maybe the officer says he wont arrest them if they do this or that, or offers them "a ride home". Makes sense to me :)

[TheShadow]

How would the kilers know that these guys had high GPA's and were often top athletes unless they actually KNEW them from the school and specifically targetted them?

[SuziQ]

Excellent question, Suzi. I don't know unless it was the circumstances of his clothing being left on, the way his arms were in front of him, and various other things which preclude a normal drowning in the decision LE came to. Their theory didn't match the evidence.

Here is what they said: When the detectives took a look at Jenkins' death, they discovered that the position of his body and other physical evidence proved that the college student didn't drown accidentally. The cause of death on Jenkins' death certificate was changed to "homicide."

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4738621&page=1

Maybe it was a matter of just looking at the existing evidence differently. Or having someone point out things that the ME merely didn't take into consideration. Yeah, the slip on clogs remaining on his feet and shirt remaining tucked in doesn't make since if the official LE theory is that Chris was thrown from a bridge. And what evidence does LE have that Chris was thrown from a bridge?

[DeltaDawn]

The officer angle struck me two because in reading of the drowning death of the young man in WVA he was with friends, an officer came up , he ran, they never saw him again.

In more then a few of these an officer seems to be the last person to see them? Hmm..if they were so intoxicated wouldn't they take them either to jail or detox unit?

[SuziQ]

How would the kilers know that these guys had high GPA's and were often top athletes unless they actually KNEW them from the school and specifically targetted them?

It's worked on female vics before.

[DeltaDawn]

Oh, OK! My mind isn't clicking today. You are right, of course. :) I wonder why they haven't released those? Interesting.

Welcome to WS, MsHolmes! We did throw that one around a bit on an earlier thread. While it is odd, I couldn't make a real connection from the story to the crimes in this case.

I thought maybe it was part of the agreement they made with the reporter. She had to keep this quiet for two years, but she may have said then when we start to go forward I want the names of the MIN/WIS vics released first.

[SuziQ]

This is on the front page of Fox now:

Detectives: 40 Drowning Victims May Have Been Murdered by 'Smiley Face Gang'

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352960,00.html

[SeriouslySearching]

I wish we had WSers in those areas to go look for the "smiley faces".

I had another thought, too. Will there be people out there that want their case researched badly enough to go and possibly paint these themselves to try to get the detectives interested? Horrible thought, isn't it?

[SuziQ]

I wish we had WSers in those areas to go look for the "smiley faces".

I had another thought, too. Will there be people out there that want their case researched badly enough to go and possibly paint these themselves to try to get the detectives interested? Horrible thought, isn't it?

Horrible thought but something to consider. Shows why some info should never be released to the public.

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes, I considered that...but they should be able to tell if the paint is old or not for some cases. Maybe they haven't disclosed other things about the smiley faces for that very reason.

[aj1020]

How would the kilers know that these guys had high GPA's and were often top athletes unless they actually KNEW them from the school and specifically targetted them?

I'm with you - especially the high GPAs that was common among many of the victims. Like I said in a previous post, if it was a random target and the killer(s) walked into any given bar in a college town, they'd get a wide selection of handsome college-aged men, but it would be a crapshoot trying to pick the ones with "high GPAs". I realize that probably not every victim had a high GPA or was even in college, but it must be a pretty noticeable trend for the detectives to mention it as a commonality.

[shadowraiths]

Something occurred to me that I keep forgetting to mention... imho, it would be useful to compile info and run stats on the following:

Missing date
Found date
Estimated date of death

Missing location
Found location
Estimated point of entry

[Blink34]

Horrible thought but something to consider. Shows why some info should never be released to the public.

Unfortunately without that info I dont think we would have this forum. I'm going to keep the faith they have enough going to have presumed that may happen unfortunately. But honestly when your desperate about what happened to somone you love, you'd do almost anything. Hopefully our work will help facilitate their cases being reviewed.

[SuziQ]

Unfortunately without that info I dont think we would have this forum. I'm going to keep the faith they have enough going to have presumed that may happen unfortunately. But honestly when your desperate about what happened to somone you love, you'd do almost anything. Hopefully our work will help facilitate their cases being reviewed.

What information to release and when is a tough call for an investigator.

[Filly]

Hope I'm not throwing more in the game here. If this has been posted already my apologies. There's a guy who was a college student and in a band who planted pipe bombs. His name is Lucas John Helder and he planted them in Nebraska, Illinois, Iowa, Colorado and Texas. He told authorities he wanted to plant these mailbox bombs geographically in a smiley face pattern. I don't know my geography and I'm sure these murderers have nothing to do with this but hey I found it interesting.http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/09/mailbox.pipebombs/

[SuziQ]

I haven't watched the entire vid yet. But wanted to get it up asap as they are disclosing new info. Including a message that was left with a smiley face. The vid is on the right side of the page.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S426475.shtml?cat=1

[SuziQ]

At the above linked video a new piece of graffiti with a message is revealed. The detectives say they have spoken with people inside the gang. They can prove some victims were kept alive for awhile and at least one was drugged.

ETA: Scott Radel is now linked. Do we have him in our victims thread?

ETA: Once again Minnisota detectives refuse to consider Gannon's and Duarte's information.

ETA: In the intro the reporter says they learn the Smiley Face killers may have targeted their victims through the internet. IMO, that would be probably Facebook or Myspace.

[pixies]

Whoa, an entire "gang" of people picking out college aged men and drowning them?
Hmmm...I don't know. Maybe one of two are connected to ONE killer but lots and lots of victims? That is just to weird. I don't think a "gang" of people could keep this a secret, they would tell a girlfriend/boyfriend or parent...it only takes one person to slip...

Then again...we have indeed seen some weirdo crap on websleuths...

[SuziQ]

Ok, Scott Radel is on the victims list. And that info came from last week from KSTP. So I'm not sure why it was reported as if they just learned about it today.

[Salem]

A question that I've been meaning to post and got sidetracked this weekend.

Do we know exactly why the ME changed the COD for Chris Jenkins from accidental to Homicide? It couldn't have been just because his parents knew in their hearts it was a homicide. What did the ME see when he took a second look, that he didn't see the first time around? What was there that made him change his mind?

I don't know if this has been answered yet, but in some of the paperwork on this case, the parents said they saw "physical" evidence on Chris' body that they did not believe was caused by his time in the water. I think between the parents and the PI, they got the ME to take a second look.

Salem

[SuziQ]

I'm having to view a freeze frame of the Smiley face message. this smiley has what appears to be devil horns. And the message appears to say "Evil Happy Smiley Face Man".

[SuziQ]

Thanks Salem, I wonder what that evidence is?

[SeriouslySearching]

"I feel that with drowning cases, you lose a lot of evidence forensically and if they had the person and whatever they were doing went bad and it was going to show outward signs of a homicide then the body would never be recovered, hence you'd have missing persons."

http://kstp.com/article/stories/s419713.shtml?cat=1v=1

[Salem]

How would the kilers know that these guys had high GPA's and were often top athletes unless they actually KNEW them from the school and specifically targetted them?

I think so too, TheShadow. We have discussed bands, which I thought was a really good idea until I remembered some of these guys go missing after parties where there would be no band.

I'm going back to Shadowraith's idea about the "roving" professor. S/He has another name but I can't think of it right now.

Not all of these guys were in school, but many were. High GPA, athletic, friends.

The cop theory is a good one, except SOMEONE else would notice that. Oh, I just saw __________ walk off with an officer.

Apparently, no one sees what happens. Or if they do, it does not register in their brains as something to take note of. If you saw your friend walk off with a cop, you would register that. But.... if you saw your friend walk off with a girl, maybe not. So now I beg my own question... if you saw your friend walk off with the visiting female professor, would you register that? Probably. Oh wow! ________ is gonna score, check it out....

You know the banter :)

This is someone sneaky and someone that raises no concern, doesn't look unusual, wouldn't make these young men take notice, and has a plan. It is not enough that they drug the young man, they must still get him out of the place or off the street without being noticed, or if someone did notice, it does not raise any red or green flags. Meaning, it appears so common place that if some one saw what was happening, they would take no notice.

This is just a bit of a story here.... when my son was in the first grade, he used to go to the library after school. It was close to my work and then I would pick him up there. Anyway, on the way home one evening, he started telling me about this old man that was hanging out in the library. Based on what my son was saying, I became concerned and called the library. No one in that library knew who I was talking about, and I went all the way up the ladder. According to my son, the man had been hanging out there with the kids for a couple of weeks and NOT ONE librarian knew who he was. I called the Sheriff. Long story short, the guy was a registered sex offender.

The point of the story is that this guy was very adept at NOT being noticed. I'm not sure how he managed that, because all the kids knew him, but NOT one adult did........ I think we are looking for someone or someones like this. Very adept at not bringing any attention to themselves.

Salem

[SuziQ]

At the below link is a vid from today reporting on Scot Radel. His poor parents are so broke up.

http://kaaltv.com/article/stories/S426974.shtml?cat=10219

[Meyahna]

I still can't believe there could be such a gang, it's weird... If true I hope they'll get caught. It's hard to find similar cases though as they might have been listed as drowning and if mentionned in news articles they probably didn't mention the smiley face. But if drugged an autopsy would have show the presence of drugs(?)
Well I dk, still yes it's weird that someone that is drunk goes near water.

Still I have a huge listing of unsolved homicides here:

http://meyahna.tripod.com/pg11.html

but yes I'd think maybe in these cases it'd be better to look at news reporting of drunk drownings for that.

[SuziQ]

http://www.westbytimes.com/articles/2008/04/28/thisjustin/06leadthis.txt

(snip)
In Michigan, they found something strange, graffiti including the word 'Sinsiniwa.' A few months later when they arrived in Dubuque, Iowa, to investigate a death of Matt Kruziki. His body was found on Sinsiniwa Avenue. Plus, they've discovered the nicknames of people in the group at more than one location.

Sinsiniwa Creek is a tributary of Fever river, in Illinois. It partially runs in Wisconsin. A nearby land feature, “The Sinsiniwa Mound” is named for it. The Sinsiniwa Mound is the home of the Sinsiniwa Dominicans Sisters, a Catholic order convent. Many religious and cultural events are held at Sinsiniwa Mound.

[shadowraiths]

I'm having to view a freeze frame of the Smiley face message. this smiley has what appears to be devil horns. And the message appears to say "Evil Happy Smiley Face Man".

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j304/shadowraiths/Corridor%2094/48c5ecd2.jpg

[SeriouslySearching]

I uploaded the photos of the smiley face with horns and the note:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2171679#post2171679

LOL I see that Shadow beat me to it! Would you mind posting that in the photo thread, too? Thanks~

[ohwell1971]

While looking at Wikipedia on Smiley Face, I clicked on the link to the video game ManHunt - well, surprise, there is a gang on that video game named "Smiley Face Gang". That sort of floored me. The game is a little twisted and I'm wondering if anyone that has actually played it can see what the "gist" of it is.

[shadowraiths]

I uploaded the photos of the smiley face with horns and the note:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2171679#post2171679

LOL I see that Shadow beat me to it! Would you mind posting that in the photo thread, too? Thanks~
np, just saw your post and added the merged pic

[SuziQ]

Thanks SS and Shado!

[SeriouslySearching]

While looking at Wikipedia on Smiley Face, I clicked on the link to the video game ManHunt - well, surprise, there is a gang on that video game named "Smiley Face Gang". That sort of floored me. The game is a little twisted and I'm wondering if anyone that has actually played it can see what the "gist" of it is.Wow! You might have scored on this one. :eek: Check out the characters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Manhunt

Piggsy
An insane, completely naked man in a pig's mask living in Starkweather's attic. He uses a blunt chainsaw to kill his victims, signed with an X (because he is illiterate).

Lionel Starkweather
Starkweather supported himself by filming underground snuff and porn films, mostly to a Japanese market, thus beginning his slow spiral into madness. When he amassed enough money, Starkweather hired outside help to kidnap those who were instrumental in his downfall and watched them die in his special "directors cut" series of snuff films which he keeps to himself in his private collection. Uses Valiant Video Enterprises as a front to distribute his snuff films.

[shadowraiths]

ETA: In the intro the reporter says they learn the Smiley Face killers may have targeted their victims through the internet. IMO, that would be probably Facebook or Myspace.
Possibly. For example, they state, in part:
It's a profile the detectives say killers hunt for, scouring the internet for victims, and in some cases Gannon says the men aren't killed right away.
This comes across to me as active as opposed to passive predation. Though, they could be using facebook, myspace, or whatever, to make the connection, or even determine the targeted victim's planned schedule (i.e., "hey, dude, you going to [blah,blah] bar on saturday?"). I'm betting the latter, if they're using a social networking site.

Esp, since the claimed commonalities are athletic high-achieving students. In conjunction with the above, I would expect to see some sort of "award" posted somewhere online (i.e., campus news, etcetera) posted prior to the alleged abduction. Thus, supporting that they are, for example, doing a search for, say, something of that nature. At which point they would be able to easily target those people whose pic appears with the story of the "award."

And finally, they claim they've been in communication with some of the people from this alleged gang. Curious....

[Salem]

Something occurred to me that I keep forgetting to mention... imho, it would be useful to compile info and run stats on the following:

Missing date

Found date

Estimated date of death


Missing location

Found location

Estimated point of entry

Shadow - I would love to help with this. I won't be able to get to it till the weekend. Maybe we can split the states up? I'm thinking I can send my stuff to you and you can figure out how to put it on the board? You appear much more computer literate than I am :crazy:

What is the best software to use? I have the basics - Word table format or Excel.

Also, I think we should add names and flush it out a bit. I also want to know how many of these were "dry" drownings. Not sure we can dig that up on everyone. However, it ticks me off that "drowning" is the COD, but there is no water in the lungs which could be an indication that they were gone before they hit the water.

Let me know what you think and how you want to coordinate.

Salem

[ohwell1971]

See, it somewhat scared me as well...but the problem is: it doesn't mention anything about "drownings"...only completely twisted things like "severing people's, um, stuff"...

(I don't know how to say that without sounding like a complete loon...just drowning someone for the "fun of it" is completely twisted as well...)

[SuziQ]

Well here's a YouTube vid of Manhunt. More vids on the right. Take your pic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCBodn7YQ_E

[ohwell1971]

This is from a site about Grand Theft Auto 2 Gangs, which is a video game made before ManHunt, but also uses 'smiley' faces:

Symbol: winking smiley faceEscaped inmates who have overrun the city's mental institution (named "SunnySide" after the Mental Institution in Montrose, Scotland, near where the game was originally developed). They appear in the Commercial District and are quite crazy. Their gang car, the Dementia, is a green microcar with their insignia painted on the roof. They wear surgical green as their gang color.

Snipped from: http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_2/Gangs

[shadowraiths]

Shadow - I would love to help with this. I won't be able to get to it till the weekend. Maybe we can split the states up? I'm thinking I can send my stuff to you and you can figure out how to put it on the board? You appear much more computer literate than I am :crazy:

What is the best software to use? I have the basics - Word table format or Excel.

Also, I think we should add names and flush it out a bit. I also want to know how many of these were "dry" drownings. Not sure we can dig that up on everyone. However, it ticks me off that "drowning" is the COD, but there is no water in the lungs which could be an indication that they were gone before they hit the water.

Let me know what you think and how you want to coordinate.
I'd say, go with excel. Makes it easy to import into a database.

In the meantime, I'm gonna write up a widget, so people can enter info on cases, as well as view the results via various sorted parameters.

Since I already have something of this nature implemented for other proggies, it will just be a matter of snagging my other code and tweaking it. I'll prolly also set up a completely seperate database and port what I have into that to make things easier.

Oops! TMI! Sorry, there I go again! LOLOL

Btw, I absolutely agree w/you wrt "dry" v "wet" drownings... Def something to take into consideration and, imho, important info to add to the database.

[SeriouslySearching]

The Smileys
Described as being among the most intense pack of hunters you'll face, the Smileys appropriately occupy the the abandoned Carcer City asylum. Although they can be heard babbling hints about their past lives, imaginary dogs stealing their shoes, and regressing into caveman-like speech patterns, Smileys are not to be taken lightly. Some are musclebound murderers while others can be found wearing women's clothing , but they all wear homemade "smiley" masks, hence the name of the gang.

The Wardogs
A group of war veterans, hunting enthusiasts, and survivalists who are among Starkweathers most efficient killers, using tactics of flanking, baiting, and full frontal assaults. The appearance of the Wardogs consists of the obligatory jungle/urban camo along with ghille suits, combat boots, and face paint, although some wear scarves over their faces. Their speech contains the usual military phrases and slang one would expect to hear from such a group, but not all of them have a real military background, so some improvise. In one mission, they even go so far as to kidnap Cash's relatives, and will shoot them for every time Cash is spotted. Much of their skill can also can attributed to Ramirez, who heads the Wardogs.


The whole game is to stalk and then kill humans. It has been banned in several countries:

Germany: On 2004-07-19, the Amtsgericht Munich confiscated all versions of Manhunt for violation of § 131 StGB (representation of violence). The game, the court said, portrays the killing of humans as fun, and the more fun, the more violent the killing is. They also sensed a glorification of vigilantism, which they considered harmful per se.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_%28video_game%29

[shadowraiths]

Well here's a YouTube vid of Manhunt. More vids on the right. Take your pic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCBodn7YQ_E
Okay, well. If you're gonna go the youtube route, do a search for "smiley face killer." I ran across more than a few... erm... odd ones, last night. Though, nothing that struck me as particularly sinister.

[SeriouslySearching]

One thing that interests me in the game is the mention of "snuff films". Could they be filming these murders?

[SuziQ]

More on the Manhunt Smiley Face Gang. They appear at 2:22 minutes into the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DLI_JGORzY

[Blink34]

Creepy sh** - what do you think the "Innocent RIFA" stood for on the guys chest?

[shadowraiths]

One thing that interests me in the game is the mention of "snuff films". Could they be filming these murders?
Hmmm... that's an interesting angle. If so, and if they, say, sent a partial to Chris Jenkin's parents, that may be where the "mental torture" comment is coming from. Otoh, if that were the case, I would be expecting the Minneapolis Police Dept to be completely jumping on it. After all, it would mean concrete proof wrt the detectives allegations.

[Blink34]

Hmmm... that's an interesting angle. If so, and if they, say, sent a partial to Chris Jenkin's parents, that may be where the "mental torture" comment is coming from. Otoh, if that were the case, I would be expecting the Minneapolis Police Dept to be completely jumping on it. After all, it would mean concrete proof wrt the detectives allegations.

I believe that the "mental torture" info came from Jaramy Alford, a POI who at the time was facing and has since pled guilty an unrelated felony murder- can anyone run him down and post ?

[SuziQ]

You can play Manhunt on Xbox. Trying to find out if you can play it live. Sounds so far like you can't since it's a one person game.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/m/manhunt/details.page/

Another consideration is meeting people playing Xbox live. Below is a link explaining it. My son plays on it and will ask him more when he gets home. My understanding is you can chat through a headset, Instant message and email. I think under gamer profiles you can provide alot of info about yourself if you want to. I locked my son's info from day one.

Xbox live overview
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/multiplayer101.htm

Gamer profile
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/features/yourgamerprofile.htm

Xbox 360 message center
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/features/messagecenter.htm

Making a friendslist
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/features/friendslist.htm

[SuziQ]

I believe that the "mental torture" info came from Jaramy Alford, a POI who at the time was facing and has since pled guilty an unrelated felony murder- can anyone run him down and post ?

I did and his vic was a Mr. Miller. Jaramy and his brother were both convicted of the murder. I think it's in the suspect thread.

[SuziQ]

More on Jaramy Alford and the murder of Douglas Miller, 32.
Jaramy's brother was also involved and convicted for the murder.

http://wcco.com/local/Jaramy.Lynn.Alford.2.364699.html

Other related articles:


Brother Pleads Guilty In New Brighton Murder Case (http://wcco.com/topstories/Jaramy.Lynn.Alford.2.361589.html) (9/13/2006)
Brothers Face First-Degree Murder Charges (http://wcco.com/topstories/Jaramy.Lynn.Alford.2.354846.html) (1/20/2006)
Iowa Teen To Face Murder Charge In MN (http://wcco.com/topstories/Luis.Alford.Jaramy.2.353604.html) (12/7/2005)
Man Charged In New Brighton Murder (http://wcco.com/topstories/New.Brighton.fire.2.352758.html) (11/8/2005)
Two Arrested In Apparent Homicide Cover-Up (http://wcco.com/topstories/Cedar.Rapids.Iowa.2.352667.html) (11/5/2005)
Death Of Man Found After Fire Ruled Homicide (http://wcco.com/topstories/New.Brighton.fire.2.352677.html) (11/4/2005)

[Pinkhammer]

With what I have read about Jenkins, and all the articles at that TV station link, I think the NYC retired cops are on the right track. Some kind of "Murder Club" or syndicate. Done on the internet. Different groups in different states, or even college-based. Two or three in each pod. One to watch the subject, one to befriend him, one to hone in on the kill.

Forget about the FBI. They were SOOOOOOO wrong about the Baton Rouge serial killer. Their profilers said "white guy in a white pick-up truck". Actually, it was a black man, in several different vehicles, which he borrowed from relatives and friends when he went out to kill.

I believe the FBI is way behind the curve on this one.

God Bless Jenkin's Mom! She really got the ball rolling. I hope her son's murderers are caught and prosecuted soon.

[SeriouslySearching]

This is very disturbing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLqy1M7DzYI&feature=related

[Blink34]

Judging from the timing of Chris Jenkins death, and this guy's arrest it had appeared to me that it would have been more likely he got info from a jailhouse snitch, however, I believe he and his brother were caught ditching a cargo van in the river it said originally, and then it was described as Miller's car, confusing, not sure if it was a van or car..

[Blink34]

This is very disturbing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLqy1M7DzYI&feature=related

SS- could not load?

[fran]

This is very disturbing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLqy1M7DzYI&feature=related

All of these videos are disturbing. So is this case! :(

fran

[DeltaDawn]

Here's what caught my eye in the one article by a different reporter. She was pregnant at the time walking them around town..they were looking for two markers. We know about the smiley face and sometimes the cult/gang members names in the graffitti..but what was the second marker that at these scene's where the body enters the water?

http://www.midiowanews.com/site/tab1.cfm?newsid=18453015&BRD=2700&PAG=461&dept_id=554432&rfi=6

[SeriouslySearching]

This is very disturbing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLqy1M7DzYI&feature=relatedHmmmm...it works for me, Blink! I don't understand.
In this video they are supposedly acting out the murders...but I must say...they look so real.

[SeriouslySearching]

I believe it mentioned they were finding the "names" of members at the sites, too.

[Blink34]

DD- I caught that too, I took that to mean that they had both the smiley and siniswa at a different scene. Perhaps they were looking for both?

[RR0004]

Just saw the case on NY news...is Lawrence Andrews of Brewster, NY and Joshua Bender on the list?

[SeriouslySearching]

No, but you could add them under the NY thread, please! :) Is Bender from NY?

[crypto6]

With what I have read about Jenkins, and all the articles at that TV station link, I think the NYC retired cops are on the right track. Some kind of "Murder Club" or syndicate. Done on the internet. Different groups in different states, or even college-based. Two or three in each pod. One to watch the subject, one to befriend him, one to hone in on the kill.

Forget about the FBI. They were SOOOOOOO wrong about the Baton Rouge serial killer. Their profilers said "white guy in a white pick-up truck&quo