Bad News or Overdramatization?

[mysteriew]

As children from the Fundamentalist LDS Church settled into new foster homes this weekend, the whereabouts of two young boys remains uncertain.
Child welfare workers in Texas say they're not worried. But the mother of the boys and attorneys representing the mothers are not sure whether they should be or not.

"We just don't know where they are," Cynthia Martinez told the Deseret News Saturday.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274226,00.html

On this one, I am thinking the alleged mothers forgot what name they told CPS.

At least three children taken from a polygamous sect's ranch are in the hospital and attorneys for their mothers say they have received little or no information about their conditions.
Attorneys for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid (TRLA) are working to identify the children, the hospitals, and to arrange for their mothers to visit the children.
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9075298

On this one I am wondering if there isn't some overdramatization. Allegedly the parents aren't being given any info- but they seem to have a lot of info. And according to the doctors who examined the children early on, the children were healthy. But CPS has announced that the kids had chicken pox, and I am thinking that using an abundance of caution that the CPS is taking extra precautions on the sick kids and taking kids to the hospital if there is any problems at all. It will take time for the chicken pox to run it's course.

[Leila]

I believe the FLDS propaganda machine is coming out in full force. I think they're purposely trying to gain public sympathy and distorting the real situation.

In regards to the two boys who are allegedly missing, I think it's likely the mother lied about their names, as so many have done, and is now using their real names and reporting that those two (real names) are missing. They are probably among the children who've been placed in homes, under the false names the mother originally gave.

[FlowerChild]

I believe the FLDS propaganda machine is coming out in full force. I think they're purposely trying to gain public sympathy and distorting the real situation.

In regards to the two boys who are allegedly missing, I think it's likely the mother lied about their names, as so many have done, and is now using their real names and reporting that those two (real names) are missing. They are probably among the children who've been placed in homes, under the false names the mother originally gave.
I have a few questions for Mom
....WHERE ARE THE BIRTH CERTIFICATES?
What are the boy's LEGAL NAMES?
Their Social Security #?
DOB?
Did you do DNA??
Who is their BIO father?
What NAMES did you use when CPS took custody of your children?
Did the boys CALL you Mother - or did they come in with some other woman that they ID'd as their mother?

I'm sorry - I can prove my DOGS and CATS are mine and this Mother can't seem to provide any tangible PROOF to verify for CPS which boys are her sons??? NO WONDER CPS isn't giving her any information about these children - she may not even be able to prove she IS THEIR MOTHER!!!

We don't have any PROOF (right now) that she has ANY children in the custody of CPS. It's just HER WORD that CPS has her sons and they are now "missing". This Mother SAYS CPS has her sons (proof?) - but knows somehow now that they are "lost" (if CPS isn't giving her any info, how does she know they are "lost"?).

Again - NORMAL RULES don't apply - and it isn't the fault of CPS either. How is CPS supposed to verify the welfare of 2 "random" boys among 462 kids when we KNOW that the children have lied about EVERYTHING - including their name, age and who their parents are? Which LIE do you believe? And if CPS produced her sons today, how would their mother PROVE they were, (or were not), her sons. How would CPS KNOW that the Mother was being truthful - ya know with NO DOCUMENTATION or DNA CPS could trot out 100 boys - only to have the Mother say "nope, they aren't here".

I am sure that IF she has two sons and CPS took custody of them, that CPS still has custody of them and they are safe. I am sure that once she can PROVE which boys are hers (without a doubt) - CPS will be happy to keep her informed of their welfare.

This Mom is just stirring up a dust-storm in hopes that while we're all running around focused on the dust in the air, we'll forget that NORMAL families would experience NONE of these issues.I am SURE the FLDS Leaders did a bit of research and saw that CPS has had issues in the past with kids in the system being "lost" and CPS not knowing where they are FOR SURE...and yes..bad things sometimes happened. It's just a way to get the public on their side - and wanna bet once these kids are verified OK, this will drop away like in never existed - only to be replaced with another "urban myth" story - maybe the one with the "bloody hook" hanging from the car door??

This is NOT a story, it's a piece of propaganda - it's a diversion by the FLDS to make us forget that the REAL story is almost 50 underage girls pregnant or with children. This won't stand up to even the most vague of investigations by the REAL media (or even amateur sleuths) because it's a work of fiction....but it doesn't have to - because the FLDS knows from experience that MOST people won't look past the surface - the FLDS is COUNTING ON the support of other strongly religious people who also fear persecution and the stripping of their religious freedoms. THIS is genius - feed the fear and hysteria and you'll get a much bigger group of people to stand around YOU and protect you, while you do nothing but rouse the rabble every so often. And one day the crowd will finally turn inward and find that the thing/person/ideal they were so focused on protecting...slipped away in the night while they weren't looking and is now nowhere to be found......

My Opinion

[golfmom]

I think that this is the first of a lot of tactics we'll see to just stir stuff up and try to turn public opinion against the state of Texas.

[golfmom]

I started thinking of the IRONY of them claiming that CPS lost taken children ...

Seems like the group has LOST a few hundred or so of their children intentionally ... i.e., THE LOST BOYS.

[mollymalone]

Not just the boys, there are those girls who tried to run several times who were retrieved by the local LE which was FLDS, and they ended up in the river tied together with their arms around each other. How many other of the girls were "thrown away" in this manner? Were there any boys that were "thrown away" in this manner?

[Vegas Bride]

The way things stand right now, I'm not willing to believe anything that comes from the flds camp. Many have their heads together right now trying to come up with ideas to make Tx look bad. I'm sure more will be said and tried.
Me thinks the days of lying and intimidating others to get your way isn't going to work, at least in Tx.

VB

[Vegas Bride]

Not just the boys, there are those girls who tried to run several times who were retrieved by the local LE which was FLDS, and they ended up in the river tied together with their arms around each other. How many other of the girls were "thrown away" in this manner? Were there any boys that were "thrown away" in this manner?

Since they didn't ever have birth certificates, who's to say how many children could just be discarded. A child could be born on the compound, live there without ever leaving the gates and done away with if they became to much of a bother. Who out here would even know that child ever existed?

VB

[Floh]

Since they didn't ever have birth certificates, who's to say how many children could just be discarded. A child could be born on the compound, live there without ever leaving the gates and done away with if they became to much of a bother. Who out here would even know that child ever existed?

VB

This crosses my mind. disposable children. it's a horror story.

[Vegas Bride]

This crosses my mind. disposable children. it's a horror story.

Yes it is, and what about that cemetery where the babies are buried, how did those babies die? Was anyone ever notified when there was a death? I'm betting no birth certificate = no death certificate.

VB

[Floh]

Yes it is, and what about that cemetery where the babies are buried, how did those babies die? Was anyone ever notified when there was a death? I'm betting no birth certificate = no death certificate.

VB

I won't be betting against you. :(

[FlowerChild]

Yes it is, and what about that cemetery where the babies are buried, how did those babies die? Was anyone ever notified when there was a death? I'm betting no birth certificate = no death certificate.

VB

As it applies to the UTAH/AZ FLDS in Hilldale and Colorado City I am sure that if they NEEDED a STATE SANCTIONED Death Certificate, one of the FLDS Drs would be HAPPY to give them one - stating SIDS or some other innocuous cause of death. It may be that there IS paperwork for those deaths - but the PROBLEM is that the whole AREA belongs to the FLDS - the DRs, the Coroner, the Police...EVERYONE. The officials will do/say what they are TOLD by the leadership. THAT isn't the case everywhere, but it certainly is in Hilldale and Colorado City. The FLDS has effectively taken over the Govt and all the public services in those towns.

In Texas I believe they also have their own Dr at the ranch...at least SOME of the time. I presume if an ADULT died, that the state would get involved but there is no guarantee - it's pretty easy to hide or disappear without a trace if you barely existed in the eyes of the Govt to begin with.

The women do not usually give birth at hospitals so if they don't want to register the birth, there is no mechanism to FORCE them to do so. I am MOST concerned that all the births and deaths of infants are NOT BEING RECORDED at ANY of the FLDS properties. Since the women are "single mothers" and have no INCOME (pay no taxes) the Govt would not be too interested in their children's records - they are "off the grid" so to speak. The women might register 5 kids legally (to get WIC and Food Stamps) and NOT REGISTER 5 more. Who Knows???

It's a MESS and it's just going to get WORSE - we have just scratched the surface.

My Opinion

[southcitymom]

May I ask y'all to take a leap and imagine that CPS has lost two of the children? It is not unheard of for that to happen - and I feel sure CPS was not entirely ready for the onslaught of charges.

If CPS had lost two children, would y'all feel any sympathy at all for the children and their mothers or would you just say its their own fault?

[TGIRecovered]

It sems to me that there are many young men from the FLDS who are unaccounted for. Where are all of these "lost boys" who were forced to leave? Why aren't they coming forth, now that the evils of the FLDS have been exposed?

I suspect that while some of these young men may have escaped or been forced out, others may have been beaten to death or purposely murdered. I would also be interested to know if there are more male babies buried at the ranch than female.

Warren Jeffs and his cohorts seem to have been making the rules as they went along; claiming to have received "word from God" whenever they needed a new rule to justify whatever behavior suited them at the time. Any human who would deliberately blaspheme God should have no problem justifying murder.

I think there needs to be some kind of public outreach to see if we can get more male survivors to speak up, if they are out there. They may have been privy to inner workings of the cult not accessible to the women. They are needed as witnesses to reveal the truth and help protect the children from being returned to mothers incapable of protecting them from abuse.

Susan

[mysteriew]

The thought just crossed my mind on the two "lost" boys. What if they are really lost. But it happened before the raid? What if the older boy was driven off the ranch and the child died? Wouldn't it convenient to cover that by blaming "the state and CPS"?

[mysteriew]

One report is of a 2-year-old boy who is in a San Angelo hospital. The child's mother told TRLA the boy had lost a "severe amount of weight" while staying at the makeshift shelter at the coliseum, said communications director Cynthia Martinez.

snip...Department of Family and Protective Services spokesman Patrick Crimmins said some of the children have minor medical issues, as would any group of 462 children.

"But there aren't any children with any serious illnesses that I'm aware of,' he said Sunday.

snip...But Crimmins reiterated Sunday that DFPS can account for all the children.

"There are no unaccounted for children. Our list reconciles," he said

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695274459,00.html

Remember the doc who said all the children taken in the raid were happy, healthy and had no appearance of abuse? LOL, the FLDS is determined to make a liar out of him!

[mysteriew]

Child welfare workers in Texas say they're not worried.

They told the Corpus Christi Caller-Times that no children have been lost, but that parent-child relationships have been difficult to determine.

A Department of Family and Protective Services spokesman says he's not aware of children being unaccounted for.

http://www.localnews8.com/Global/story.asp?S=8233683&nav=menu554_2_4

[mysteriew]

At least nine children taken from a polygamous sect's ranch are or have been in the hospital and attorneys for most of the mothers say they have received little or no information about their conditions.

Depending on the assigned caseworker, some FLDS mothers are being allowed to see their children and some are not, Chisholm said.
Texas Child Protective Services said Friday that one child had been hospitalized because of dehydration.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9079761

FLDS says 9, Texas CPS says one.

[Floh]

May I ask y'all to take a leap and imagine that CPS has lost two of the children? It is not unheard of for that to happen - and I feel sure CPS was not entirely ready for the onslaught of charges.

If CPS had lost two children, would y'all feel any sympathy at all for the children and their mothers or would you just say its their own fault?

If they really have lost two children, i'd be appalled and yes of course i'd feel sympathy for the children and their mothers. but i don't believe it to be so. not for a millisecond because i think CPS are going strictly by the book and ensurely nothing can be leveled at them. IMO.

[mysteriew]

May I ask y'all to take a leap and imagine that CPS has lost two of the children? It is not unheard of for that to happen - and I feel sure CPS was not entirely ready for the onslaught of charges.

If CPS had lost two children, would y'all feel any sympathy at all for the children and their mothers or would you just say its their own fault?

Oh I believe it has probably happened. It would be easy. In the shelter when asked, alleged mother says the two boys are named Joshua and Mark. Now when she is looking for them, she says she is looking for James and Jeff. Of course they can't find them! It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't done on purpose. After all, they are just boys. The 11 year old would probably be leaving the compound in a couple of years anyway. And the little one? Well, alleged mother most likely has a little girl that needs her attention more. After all, alleged mother is going to be fighting the evil influence that is telling the little girl that she shouldn't be ordered to marry at age 12 or 13.

[FlowerChild]

CPS has already SAID that ALL 462 Children from the FLDS that were removed from their parent's custody are healthy and accounted for. I don't know WHICH children these two boys are, but IF they were turned over to CPS, CPS has them. Perhaps CPS doesn't WANT this particular mother to know precisely where the boys are? Perhaps CPS isn't even sure the two boys she says are her sons, are really her sons? Perhaps there are signs of physical ABUSE with her sons?

This was too big and too important, and too scrutinized by the WORLD for CPS to have "lost" two children. These boys are in CPS custody in one of the shelters - and if they are ill, they are getting medical treatment..probably the BEST medical treatment possible. With 462 kids from newborn up to 18 there is ALWAYS going to be at least a few kids that are sick with SOMETHING - they will be fine - they are being VERY CLOSELY monitored almost non-stop - I don't think TX is gonna screw this up by missing even a TINY detail. I am NOT worried that CPS is "losing" children ... but I am worried that the FLDS has "lost" a few children.

Funny how it's OK (private business, you know) to dump your boys on the road outside town when they are 15 or 16 but if CPS takes your boys to STOP this dumping from happening you turn around and begin screaming to the heavens about "the lost children".

These people cannot have it BOTH WAYS. You cannot DUMP BOYS one day and then complain about someone else taking them the next. Either you WANT the boys - (all of them) - or you DON'T. They aren't puppies, parents can't just keep the pick of the litter and dump the rest.

My Opinion

[Leila]

May I ask y'all to take a leap and imagine that CPS has lost two of the children? It is not unheard of for that to happen - and I feel sure CPS was not entirely ready for the onslaught of charges.

If CPS had lost two children, would y'all feel any sympathy at all for the children and their mothers or would you just say its their own fault?

How would anyone ever prove that CPS lost two children?

The FLDS mothers have created this mess by refusing to cooperate with CPS in the first place. They refused to give names, dates of birth, and could not/would not produce any documentation to identify children.

Where's the proof that these two children ever existed, were removed by CPS, and are now lost?

Warren Jeffs preached to his followers that it's ok to lie to the enemy, and it appears the FLDS is following his command.

[southcitymom]

How would anyone ever prove that CPS lost two children?

The FLDS mothers have created this mess by refusing to cooperate with CPS in the first place. They refused to give names, dates of birth, and could not/would not produce any documentation to identify children.

Where's the proof that these two children ever existed, were removed by CPS, and are now lost?

Warren Jeffs preached to his followers that it's ok to lie to the enemy, and it appears the FLDS is following his command.

Uhm, CPS would say "Hey - we've lost some." That has happened before to children in the foster system - though no one usually admits it until the child is dead.

I don't have a hard time believing - due to the confusion surrounding the situation - that there are FLDS mothers who don't know where the heck their kids are and that communication between the mothers and CPS might not be terrific. I don't even find it a tiny stretch to believe that.

[TGIRecovered]

Mysteriew, do you think I should start a seperate "Lost Boys" thread to discuss FLDS boys in general, or is it okay to discuss all of the boys on this one? I don't want to mess up your thread about the two boys whose "mothers" say they are missing.

[mysteriew]

Mysteriew, do you think I should start a seperate "Lost Boys" thread to discuss FLDS boys in general, or is it okay to discuss all of the boys on this one? I don't want to mess up your thread about the two boys whose "mothers" say they are missing.

LOL, TGRI I'm not the boss.

My original intention on this thread was to have a place to put the FLDS claims for discussion. So if we continue in that vein, then probably a separate thread for the lost boys. They certainly deserve their own thread. There is a lot of info on them and hopefully will soon be more info about them.

[mysteriew]

Azar said that six children remain in area hospitals, where they are being treated for illnesses such as ear infections. Three other children were treated and released.
TRLA praised CPS on Monday for setting up a supervised visiting schedule for parents whose children are being treated at Shannon West Texas Memorial Hospital.
Azar said all children are accounted for and caseworkers each have been assigned 15 children to represent. Arrangements also are being made that will allow mothers to visit their children while in foster care, he said.
http://origin.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9091635

FLDS is also disputing the number of pregnant teens. They are alleging that some of the alleged teens are actually in their mid to upper 20's.

[golfmom]

Well, if these folks quit changing their names and ages . . . . .

[FlowerChild]

Mysteriew, do you think I should start a seperate "Lost Boys" thread to discuss FLDS boys in general, or is it okay to discuss all of the boys on this one? I don't want to mess up your thread about the two boys whose "mothers" say they are missing.
I created a thread "The Lost Boys Of The FLDS"
It's very sad that people can be prosecuted for abandoning or mistreating their pets or livestock, but not for throwing away a CHILD. They make these boys dependent upon them for everything, deny them education and stunt their maturity - only to throw them away like a used coffee cup with no warning - toss them into a world they have been systematically denied/forbidden access to their entire lives - abandoning them with no more than the clothes on their backs.

Even when we release long-term PRISONERS (convicted criminals) we allow them a phone call, give them a bus ticket, provide them with shoes and a couple of changes of new clothes and give them enough money to get a cheap room and some food for a week or two. And they DO have access to help/counseling and FREE resources.

We are pretty dismal if we sit back and silently CONDONE treating a convicted murderer BETTER than an innocent BOY excommunicated by the FLDS because the FLDS HIDES behind "religion" and "Church Membership".

My Opinion

[Leila]

Azar said that six children remain in area hospitals, where they are being treated for illnesses such as ear infections. Three other children were treated and released.
TRLA praised CPS on Monday for setting up a supervised visiting schedule for parents whose children are being treated at Shannon West Texas Memorial Hospital.
Azar said all children are accounted for and caseworkers each have been assigned 15 children to represent. Arrangements also are being made that will allow mothers to visit their children while in foster care, he said.
http://origin.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9091635

FLDS is also disputing the number of pregnant teens. They are alleging that some of the alleged teens are actually in their mid to upper 20's.

I think the FLDS is purposely trying to create a problem where no problem exists. The CPS seems to be confident they've accounted for all children and none are lost. I'd believe CPS over the FLDS, who are in an adversarial position to begin with.

[mysteriew]

I think the FLDS is purposely trying to create a problem where no problem exists. The CPS seems to be confident they've accounted for all children and none are lost. I'd believe CPS over the FLDS, who are in an adversarial position to begin with.

I also believe the CPS over the FLDS. But out of fairness, I also believe we do have to look at the FLDS complaints. And watch over the CPS.

However, what I am seeing is that the FLDS is doing a lot of complaining and overdramatization. And that they believe they can issue demands and that those demands should be met immediately. I am seeing a lot of pity party, but little substance in the complaints.

The only issue I have so far is probably more of a tactical issue. Evidently there are 6 kids in the hospital. And CPS has been slow about letting media know about that. While I believe the kids were probably hospitalized in an abundance of caution, by not letting media know about it CPS set themselves up for the FLDS to use that against them. In defense of CPS though, I also believe they pretty much have their hands full with the kids and making arrangements. So their first priority should be the kids- not the media, not the parents, and not responding to the FLDS complaints.

[Peculiar Petunia]

Wouldn't the HIPAA (hope I've got the acronym right) actually forbid the information about hospitalization being released?

[legallee]

Wouldn't the HIPAA (hope I've got the acronym right) actually forbid the information about hospitalization being released?
CPS isn't under the HIPPA laws, only the Hospitals and Clinics, so they could tell the info.

[Vegas Bride]

CPS isn't under the HIPPA laws, only the Hospitals and Clinics, so they could tell the info.

When I worked for the department of mental health, hippa was very important and we would never be allowed to give out information.

VB

[mysteriew]

When I worked for the department of mental health, hippa was very important and we would never be allowed to give out information.

VB

HIPPA is taken seriously in the medical arena. Dept. of Mental Health falls under the medical arena. CPS falls under protection. And anyway, the parent or guardian can release the info. CPS is the temporary guardians at present. So yes, they could release the info, and have released the info now.

[LinasK]

I just read an article that stated generally what the illnesses were and they were minor- ear infections and respiratory illnesses I think. One girl also did just give birth.

[mollymalone]

I just read an article that stated generally what the illnesses were and they were minor- ear infections and respiratory illnesses I think. One girl also did just give birth.There were those few who had the chicken pox also.

[mysteriew]

Salt Lake City attorney Rod Parker accused the department of putting out "misleading information" to malign the polygamous sect.

snip... "That makes some of the children more susceptible to broken bones," Parker said. "The mothers told CPS about that when they were taken in. They've known all along that the reason they might see higher incidence of broken bones was due to this condition. They have no evidence to support the implication it is due to child abuse."
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9106612

Brittle bones, is that a genetic condition?

I think the alleged mothers saying the kids have brittle bones gives an indication that they were being questioned about multiple fractures on a child. And the way the attorney talks, there are "several".

I notice the attorneys are not addressing the sexal abuse of the boys directly.

[mysteriew]

I did some checking around. There is a disease called brittle bone disease, osteogenesis imperfecta that does cause fractures in children. So if it is proven that the kids have this, then it could explain the fractures.

However, should note- it is a rare genetic disease. And the attorneys have said there are "several" of the children with this disease.


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/brittlebones.htm

[mysteriew]

A judge ordered that the baby boy born to a teenager taken from a polygamist sect's ranch in West Texas be placed in state custody, according to documents released Thursday.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order Wednesday giving the state custody of the 1-day-old infant born to a teen believed to be 15 or 16 years old.

The girl has claimed to be 18 and based on a bishop's record used during the custody hearing two weeks ago, she would be 18 now. But officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5747774.html

Even though the CPS believes she is under 18, the Bishop's record lists her age as 18. Which is an issue only in that CPS has taken her into custody. However, besides the newborn, she also has a 20 month old baby. Am I calculating correctly to believe that she was probably under the age of 16 when she conceived the first child?

[Leila]

A judge ordered that the baby boy born to a teenager taken from a polygamist sect's ranch in West Texas be placed in state custody, according to documents released Thursday.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order Wednesday giving the state custody of the 1-day-old infant born to a teen believed to be 15 or 16 years old.

The girl has claimed to be 18 and based on a bishop's record used during the custody hearing two weeks ago, she would be 18 now. But officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5747774.html

Even though the CPS believes she is under 18, the Bishop's record lists her age as 18. Which is an issue only in that CPS has taken her into custody. However, besides the newborn, she also has a 20 month old baby. Am I calculating correctly to believe that she was probably under the age of 16 when she conceived the first child?

It sounds like the girl was probably about 15 years old when she conceived the now 20-month-old child. 20 months, plus 9 months for a normal pregnancy, would be 29 months subtracted from 18, would be 15 years, 7 months. If records later prove that the girl is now under 18 - perhaps 17 soon to be 18 - she was likely 15.

[Jute]

How would anyone ever prove that CPS lost two children?

The FLDS mothers have created this mess by refusing to cooperate with CPS in the first place. They refused to give names, dates of birth, and could not/would not produce any documentation to identify children.

Where's the proof that these two children ever existed, were removed by CPS, and are now lost?

Warren Jeffs preached to his followers that it's ok to lie to the enemy, and it appears the FLDS is following his command.
I've read articles about multiple mothers breastfeeding the same babies; removing or tampering with their own and children's wristbands to confuse identities; instructing the children to lie about their names. I have lost virtually all sympathy for these women; if they sincerely wanted their children back, they would not continue to do everything in their power to ensure that won't happen.

Another name-related issue that I've wondered about, but haven't found an answer to is, when a woman is re-assigned to a new "husband," does her name - and those of her children - change to that of the new "husband"? If that's the case, can you imagine how confused these children are?

[Jute]

A judge ordered that the baby boy born to a teenager taken from a polygamist sect's ranch in West Texas be placed in state custody, according to documents released Thursday.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order Wednesday giving the state custody of the 1-day-old infant born to a teen believed to be 15 or 16 years old.

The girl has claimed to be 18 and based on a bishop's record used during the custody hearing two weeks ago, she would be 18 now. But officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5747774.html

Even though the CPS believes she is under 18, the Bishop's record lists her age as 18. Which is an issue only in that CPS has taken her into custody. However, besides the newborn, she also has a 20 month old baby. Am I calculating correctly to believe that she was probably under the age of 16 when she conceived the first child?
Also from the article:
"The newborn is the teen's second child; the first is a 20-month-old boy. The father of both children was identified as Jackson Jessop, 22, but state officials say they don't know his whereabouts." :mad:

[Jute]

I did some checking around. There is a disease called brittle bone disease, osteogenesis imperfecta that does cause fractures in children. So if it is proven that the kids have this, then it could explain the fractures.

However, should note- it is a rare genetic disease. And the attorneys have said there are "several" of the children with this disease.


http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/brittlebones.htm
There are many articles about a genetic disorder that the FLDS are handing down to their children, but it isn't brittle bones, it's Fumarase Deficiency.
"— and began handing down to their descendants a recessive gene for a severe form of mental retardation called Fumarase Deficiency. The birth defect has become increasingly prevalent within the FLDS community since 1990 when it was first identified by Dr. Theodore Tarby, an Arizona pediatric neurologist"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1732498,00.html

As many articles as I've read on this and other FLDS topics, I've never seen anything relating to brittle bones. Considering that there is genetic proof that there is already one tragic disorder being spread within FLDS because of inbreeding, I'm surprised that Parker would make such a foolish statement.

[Leila]

I've read articles about multiple mothers breastfeeding the same babies; removing or tampering with their own and children's wristbands to confuse identities; instructing the children to lie about their names. I have lost virtually all sympathy for these women; if they sincerely wanted their children back, they would not continue to do everything in their power to ensure that won't happen.

Another name-related issue that I've wondered about, but haven't found an answer to is, when a woman is re-assigned to a new "husband," does her name - and those of her children - change to that of the new "husband"? If that's the case, can you imagine how confused these children are?

I don't have any sympathy for the mothers either. Their failure to cooperate indicates that they're hiding something, and knowing the history of the FLDS, we can guess that they've got a lot to hide. It also indicates they're aware that they are guilty of wrong-doing.

You've asked a good question regarding re-assigned wives. I don't know the answer, but I would think that if re-assigning a wife means only that another man is responsible for the well-being of her and her children, she would retain her original married name. If re-assigning means being married and sealed to another husband, then I would think her name would change, although I don't know if the children's names would change too. It's very confusing!

[Amraann]

What sorry excuses for mothers!

CPS not divulging the whereabouts of the children does not mean the children are "lost"

I thought it was pretty common for parents not to know what foster home their children where in to avoid abduction by the parents?

[Jute]

What sorry excuses for mothers!

CPS not divulging the whereabouts of the children does not mean the children are "lost"

I thought it was pretty common for parents not to know what foster home their children where in to avoid abduction by the parents?
Exactly! The children are in protective custody - while allegations of parental abuse are investigated. Why on earth would CPS tell the parents where the children are?

The people who make up the court and CPS system are human, and humans are far from perfect. The pressure CPS is under in most locations due to too-heavy caseloads results in mistakes and caseworkers make poor judgement calls - they'll even admit it. In this situation, I honestly believe that everyone involved is, at least for now, being SUPER cautious. The children each have an atty. ad litem and a guadian ad litem; each mother has an atty. Every time I see another accusation about critically ill or lost children with no proof - like maybe a full name and those of the parents?? - it makes my blood boil. Parker is beginning to make some some of the less savory "celebrity" attorneys look good - at least they don't generally defend or try to cover up crimes against children. :furious:

[Jute]

I don't have any sympathy for the mothers either. Their failure to cooperate indicates that they're hiding something, and knowing the history of the FLDS, we can guess that they've got a lot to hide. It also indicates they're aware that they are guilty of wrong-doing.

You've asked a good question regarding re-assigned wives. I don't know the answer, but I would think that if re-assigning a wife means only that another man is responsible for the well-being of her and her children, she would retain her original married name. If re-assigning means being married and sealed to another husband, then I would think her name would change, although I don't know if the children's names would change too. It's very confusing!
There are different scenarios. If a man dies, his wife is reassigned. If Jeffs got angry at a man and kicked him out, his wife was reassigned. I don't know if that would make a difference or not. More secretiveness. :confused:

[Leila]

There are different scenarios. If a man dies, his wife is reassigned. If Jeffs got angry at a man and kicked him out, his wife was reassigned. I don't know if that would make a difference or not. More secretiveness. :confused:

That would be an excellent question for one of the people who've escaped the FLDS. I believe the women's surname would change, but not the children's surnames. If the FLDS follows the LDS tradition, genealogy is important, and the children would retain their birth name.

Going back to the women not cooperating with the authorities, I was thinking about this last night, and I would term the FLDS women "enablers." Just like alcoholics, whose friends or relatives enable them to continue their destructive behavior by making excuses for them, covering up for them, or giving them the means to continue to drink. The FLDS women are no different, they are enablers as they allow the destructive behavior to continue.

[mollymalone]

That would be an excellent question for one of the people who've escaped the FLDS. I believe the women's surname would change, but not the children's surnames. If the FLDS follows the LDS tradition, genealogy is important, and the children would retain their birth name.

Going back to the women not cooperating with the authorities, I was thinking about this last night, and I would term the FLDS women "enablers." Just like alcoholics, whose friends or relatives enable them to continue their destructive behavior by making excuses for them, covering up for them, or giving them the means to continue to drink. The FLDS women are no different, they are enablers as they allow the destructive behavior to continue.Yes, as many have a vested interest in it, especially if they are wives to someone in the hierarchy who gets their fingers on the money. They dress better, they have better vehicles, homes, goods, etc.
Their children might be chosen to be groomed for better jobs, college even.
If they're a first wife or a favored wife, they wield power over the other wives and all their children. If they're married to someone like Jeffs, or Jessop, that power is increased.

[mysteriew]

That would be an excellent question for one of the people who've escaped the FLDS. I believe the women's surname would change, but not the children's surnames. If the FLDS follows the LDS tradition, genealogy is important, and the children would retain their birth name.

Going back to the women not cooperating with the authorities, I was thinking about this last night, and I would term the FLDS women "enablers." Just like alcoholics, whose friends or relatives enable them to continue their destructive behavior by making excuses for them, covering up for them, or giving them the means to continue to drink. The FLDS women are no different, they are enablers as they allow the destructive behavior to continue.

But one thing that differs from the LDS is the reassignment of wives and children. Remember according to what has been said if a wife and her children are reassigned, the children must address the new hubby as their father and may not acknowlege their old father. The new father takes the new children as his own.As they don't allow acknowlegment of the old bonds, that makes me wonder if perhaps they don't also rename the children (last names.) If they follow the LDS at all in geneological records, this might be and probably is recorded in a book somewhere- and the records would also be helpful for breeding purposes.

[mysteriew]

Willie Jessop, an FLDS spokesman, said attempts to offer DFPS information about the children's schooling, dietary habits and medical treatment preferences have all been spurned.
Texas officials say the FLDS have had more-than-normal involvement with their children given that this is an ongoing abuse investigation. But John Walsh, a religious studies scholar who is an expert in fundamentalist Mormons, said his overtures to help were rejected.

''CPS wasn't interested in even talking to a Texas resident with a Ph.D. with special expertise on fundamentalist Mormonism,'' said Walsh, who testified at a two-day hearing earlier this month for an attorney representing FLDS fathers. "If I was investigating a Roman Catholic family for child abuse, I think I personally would be more interested in a Ph.D. for background information than I would in someone who had been molested by a priest."
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9148959

He seems to be a bit miffed that he wasn't "consulted." Personally, I find that PhD's many times do not connect with the average person. Sort of like politicians say they do what the people want, but many times have no idea what the people want.

They make a good point about Walsh in the comments.
http://166.70.44.77/comments/read_comments.asp?ref=9148959&sec=News

Essentially that Walsh testified for the FLDS in the hearing, and that Walsh has written several pro FLDS articles.

[mysteriew]

"(FLDS) families are upset because many of these guidelines come from dissidents and the parents have been excluded from the process," he said. "When it comes right down to it, this whole situation is about Texas acting on the basis of anti-FLDS propaganda."

Parker said he didn't know of any insensitive remarks from children, but he questioned the motive of Texas reporting such statements. "To characterize the remarks of a child as derogatory remarks is inherently culturally insensitive," he said.

One of the cultural tips incorrectly lists April 6 as Joseph Smith's birthday, indicating it is the sect's only significant holiday.

Jessop said FLDS members celebrate the birth and resurrection of Christ on that date. "That's also when God's New Year begins," she said. Growing up, she said they also celebrated Pioneer Day on July 24, held a "harvest festival" in the fall, and they used to celebrate Thanksgiving, but "Warren took that away, too."
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275974,00.html

Also interesting in the article is Jessop telling an anecdote about what happened when Warren banned the color red.

[mysteriew]

A little more than a third of the foster-care institutions that took FLDS children in state custody are faith-based providers with long and rich histories of helping people.
The fact that some of these Texas facilities have religious ties could be a concern for some because many mainstream Christian religions admittedly do not know a lot about Fundamentalist LDS Church beliefs and practices.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695276465,00.html

[mysteriew]

A break down of what is in the model for care.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695276464,00.html

You know I have read the FLDS general complaints about the model for care- but they don't really say that anything is wrong or should be different other than the error about Smith's birthday. If they had complaints and concern about it's affect on the children, you would think they would be asking for a meeting to correct any info they felt was wrong.

I have also been thinking about the model. Does anyone know of any kids of another religion where the CPS has publicly and actively requested their caseworkers make any changes due to the religion? You know they do pick up kids of all religions- Hindu, Buddist, Jewish, Islamic as well as mainstream religions and other lesser known religions. As far as I know, once in the system- they may end up not going to church services or to a different religious service than their own religion.

Yet the FLDS seems to think that these kids should have every aspect of their religion duplicated.

[mysteriew]

The federal government should intervene to speed up the return to Canada of a 17-year-old girl who was apprehended during a raid of the Yearning For Zion polygamist compound in Texas, the parents' lawyer says.

The Canadian teenager was among 463 children under 18 years old who were taken into custody during a raid of the isolated compound run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, 523 kilometres southwest of Dallas.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080505.POLYGAMY05/TPStory/National

Parents say they have now talked with their daughter. They say their daughter went to YFZ a few weeks before the raid- not to marry, but to visit her grandmother. Parents complain that no one at CPS or the child's attorney will talk to them. But Canadian consular officials say they have talked with the child's attorney and is providing assistance.

Parents have offered to provide DNA. Allegedly CPS is willing to release the girl if a valid birth certificate is provided.

The tone of the article is harsh. They say the girl was "apprehended."

[LinasK]

"(FLDS) families are upset because many of these guidelines come from dissidents and the parents have been excluded from the process," he said. "When it comes right down to it, this whole situation is about Texas acting on the basis of anti-FLDS propaganda."

Parker said he didn't know of any insensitive remarks from children, but he questioned the motive of Texas reporting such statements. "To characterize the remarks of a child as derogatory remarks is inherently culturally insensitive," he said.

One of the cultural tips incorrectly lists April 6 as Joseph Smith's birthday, indicating it is the sect's only significant holiday.

Jessop said FLDS members celebrate the birth and resurrection of Christ on that date. "That's also when God's New Year begins," she said. Growing up, she said they also celebrated Pioneer Day on July 24, held a "harvest festival" in the fall, and they used to celebrate Thanksgiving, but "Warren took that away, too."
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275974,00.html

Also interesting in the article is Jessop telling an anecdote about what happened when Warren banned the color red.

From this article:
The color red is "not acceptable for clothing" for boys or girls, the guide states. Black Nikes and Crocs shoes of all colors are preferred for girls, except for red Crocs. The guide also indicates FLDS children do not play with red toys.
The red edict also stems from Jeffs, who banned the color after announcing it was reserved for Christ, who would return wearing a crimson robe. "To wear that color before he returned was mocking Christ," she explained.
People reacted differently to Jeffs' red announcement, Jessop said. Some women continued to wear red but didn't replace the clothing with that color once it was worn out, while others immediately threw away all red items, including one woman who ripped out the red rose bushes in her yard and changed them to pink roses.



Okay, now aren't we being a little bit hypocritical about the Red Crocs, what makes them okay when red roses are not even acceptable???:waitasec:

[LinasK]

A break down of what is in the model for care.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695276464,00.html

You know I have read the FLDS general complaints about the model for care- but they don't really say that anything is wrong or should be different other than the error about Smith's birthday. If they had complaints and concern about it's affect on the children, you would think they would be asking for a meeting to correct any info they felt was wrong.

I have also been thinking about the model. Does anyone know of any kids of another religion where the CPS has publicly and actively requested their caseworkers make any changes due to the religion? You know they do pick up kids of all religions- Hindu, Buddist, Jewish, Islamic as well as mainstream religions and other lesser known religions. As far as I know, once in the system- they may end up not going to church services or to a different religious service than their own religion.

Yet the FLDS seems to think that these kids should have every aspect of their religion duplicated.

I agree that it's BS!:mad: CPS is already bending over backwards to accomodate them, e.g. making sure they don't see TV, etc. They are even accomodating their dietary preferences. But come on, to request that everyone dress like them and look like them????:banghead::banghead::banghead: What do they think they're trying to do, convert the social services workers? I have no pity for them having to deal with a black person or a Jewish person. :boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:They should be glad they're not being beaten and abused on a daily basis.:behindbar

[Vegas Bride]

Next thing the mothers will be complaining about is that CPS is allowing the babies to cry when they're hungry or need a changing rather than teaching them to stay silent and "sweet"

VB

[LinasK]

:laugh:Next thing the mothers will be complaining about is that CPS is allowing the babies to cry when they're hungry or need a changing rather than teaching them to stay silent and "sweet"

VB
Good one!

[FlowerChild]

Next thing the mothers will be complaining about is that CPS is allowing the babies to cry when they're hungry or need a changing rather than teaching them to stay silent and "sweet"

VB
Yeah, just think of all the "training" the children have already missed :eek:
Tsk Tsk Tsk CPS is doing horrible damage to those children......the babies aren't being "broken" with a hand over the mouth, the toddlers aren't being held under water until they are "sweet" and not a single child has gotten a black eye or fallen down and "broken" - despite those "brittle bones" of theirs.

Did anybody read the smoothie recipe the kids ask for (which also seems to be a baby formula)? Almonds, olive oil and honey? What's up with THAT? All that talk about organic, whole foods etc and the kids and babies are being fed smoothies made from almonds, oil and honey? Don't these folks grow any fruit? Oh, I forgot -- probably can't eat strawberries (red), tomatoes (red) raspberries (red) apples (red) some grapes (red) watermelon (red) - I guess it's hard to eat a balanced diet within a color spectrum - even some potatoes and vegetables would be off the list. I looked at the Bible and I didn't see any mention of Jesus making a fashion statement anywhere, when did he have his "colors" done? Who KNEW that red was "his" color? I would think white (you know, indicative of true purity) but what do I know? I guess all us poor infidels that happen to be wearing RED when Jesus comes back are just outta luck in the whole "rapture" department because Jesus will be so PISSED that we appropriated "His" personal color.

All of this "revelation" by the Prophet is so much horsepuckey. Not only is Warren Jeffs a sick twisted little man with a Napoleon Complex, he is either an incredible con man or he needs some serious meds to stop the voices and visions and delusions. IMO he just sits around and pulls ridiculous crap outta his azz and throws it out there to the masses to see just how much they will swallow. It's gotta be a real ego trip to see everyone running around digging up the "wrong color" roses just to follow his "revelation". Sadly, the FLDS are all so brainwashed, they never question anything - they just act in blind obedience to a man - not GOD) a MAN!

I say show the children the REAL WORLD , the one in EVERY COLOR imaginable! A color cannot HURT ANYONE!

My Opinion

[mysteriew]

From this article:
The color red is "not acceptable for clothing" for boys or girls, the guide states. Black Nikes and Crocs shoes of all colors are preferred for girls, except for red Crocs. The guide also indicates FLDS children do not play with red toys.
The red edict also stems from Jeffs, who banned the color after announcing it was reserved for Christ, who would return wearing a crimson robe. "To wear that color before he returned was mocking Christ," she explained.
People reacted differently to Jeffs' red announcement, Jessop said. Some women continued to wear red but didn't replace the clothing with that color once it was worn out, while others immediately threw away all red items, including one woman who ripped out the red rose bushes in her yard and changed them to pink roses.


Okay, now aren't we being a little bit hypocritical about the Red Crocs, what makes them okay when red roses are not even acceptable???:waitasec:

To me, it was encouraging to hear that some women continued to wear red clothing but just didn't replace it when it wore out. To me that means there is some hope, there may be some practical women there. The kind of woman who still thinks for herself.

I wonder about Warren's making that particular proclamation. Was it a way of testing the followers? Did he just not like the color red? Or is it a sign of weakness, that at least on that particular day he needed the ego boost that the others would obey him over a stupid order?

[Peculiar Petunia]

First a trampoline, now honey, which is not supposed to be fed to infants because of the (admittedly low) risk of botulism. Did only the baby boys get the smoothies?

[Leila]

After this next round of hearings, the individual hearings, is over, I think CPS will be looking at more long-term care for the children. When that happens, I hope CPS will ease up and gradually allow the children to start adjusting to the outside world.

There's some excellent children's programing on television and it wouldn't hurt for the younger children be watch some educational television.

With the summer months coming up, a picnic to a nearby park or lake would give them a chance to see other people and perhaps experience interaction with other children.

A trip to a local museum would also be a good outing, or to a children's theater.

There's a lot that could be done to slowly adjust the children to the outside world.

As far as I'm concerned, the FLDS will find fault no matter what is done, so why not expose the children to the outside world.

[mysteriew]

I read somewhere that since they are in group homes but segregated from other kids that once the hearings were over they plan to allow gradual but limited contact with the other kids in the shelters. In 90 days a decision has to be made on whether to keep them in shelters or put them in foster homes. Right now they are being tested and tutored, but school will be out soon. Though many of might be tutored through the summer in order to help get them school ready.

I think a summer camp with both FLDS and non-FLDS would be good. Because a lot of times the best way to connect to a kid is through another kid.

[Spazkat9696]

Question?? I skimmed the thread but did they find the "missing children"? Were they actually missing, or was this just confusion compounded by lies?

[mysteriew]

Question?? I skimmed the thread but did they find the "missing children"? Were they actually missing, or was this just confusion compounded by lies?

It's not really clear. I did read that CPS said they found one of the two, but the parents were disputing it. CPS does say that they have accounted for every child that they took out of the compound. But that there may be problems related to the fact that the mothers were not telling the truth about the children's names or the parent's names. Making it now difficult to connect mothers and children.

[Leila]

I read somewhere that since they are in group homes but segregated from other kids that once the hearings were over they plan to allow gradual but limited contact with the other kids in the shelters. In 90 days a decision has to be made on whether to keep them in shelters or put them in foster homes. Right now they are being tested and tutored, but school will be out soon. Though many of might be tutored through the summer in order to help get them school ready.

I think a summer camp with both FLDS and non-FLDS would be good. Because a lot of times the best way to connect to a kid is through another kid.

Mysteriew..............that's an excellent idea! Peer influence will play an important role.

I think it's likely that many of these children won't be returned to the FLDS. In this case, they need to slowly be integrated into the outside world.

[LinasK]

Mysteriew..............that's an excellent idea! Peer influence will play an important role.

I think it's likely that many of these children won't be returned to the FLDS. In this case, they need to slowly be integrated into the outside world.

Let's hope they don't try to convert the non-FLDS kids!:eek::eek::eek:

[Leila]

Let's hope they don't try to convert the non-FLDS kids!:eek::eek::eek:

Yikes..........I never thought of that! :eek:

[mysteriew]

How many 16 year old kids do you know who would be willing to give up their makeup, TV's, video games, fast food and so forth for very long?

[mysteriew]

As Richard Barlow walked eight of his children to a bus that would take them away from the YFZ Ranch, he gave each one advice.
"I spoke very freely. I said, 'Let us be at peace,' " he said.
And: "Be strong."

snip...The couple said they gave the state accurate names and birth dates for all of their children. And later they submitted DNA samples.
"We have nothing to hide," said Susan, 37.
But Barlow does have a plural family, which is something he declines to discuss in any detail.
As for underage marriage, neither he nor Susan supports it and both believe their own children should be adults before they marry. "Underage marriage is not one of our doctrines or covenants," he said.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9155045

This is going to be the hardest type of PR for CPS to deal with- alleged reasonableness. The Barlows say their children are all spread out.

In fairness I would like to point out that although Barlow evidently admitted to plural wives in the interview (and he said they were over 18), they were not interviewed, not named and they and their children are barely even mentioned.

[mysteriew]

Steve Pickell, an attorney ad litem for for Isaac, asked why the boy's Book of Mormon had been taken away and not returned. Pickell also asked whether the state's service plan requires the boys' mother to renounce her faith in the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Caseworker Missy McCarty said such a pronouncement by mothers would not be required, and added she did not know why the book was taken.
Judge Marilyn Aboussie said the state does not intend to interfere with the children's religious texts, and said she wants to know why the book was taken.
"I would like to hear if there was a good reason for that. I can't think of one," she said. "We would need an excellent reason for that."
Outside court, CPS spokesperson Bit Whitaker said many of the FLDS children's copies of the Book of Mormon had photos of Warren Jeffs taped into them. Workers had to remove them, Whitaker said, as Warren Jeffs is a convicted sex offender.
http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9310669

[mysteriew]

Lawyers for the parents, who are in hearings in five courtrooms, are questioning the Child Protective Services plans for the children, which the state says are needed to protect them. The hearings began today.

The parents' lawyers said the plans are vague and at the same time call for requirements they consider questionable, such as testing the educational backgrounds of the parents, not just the children.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5789935.html

[mysteriew]

Remember the Canadian teen whose parents have said she is 17, she was only in the US a few weeks and was visiting her grandmother?

A historian who has compiled geneological maps of BC community says there is no grandmother in Texas, and that the girl has been gone for a much longer time than a few weeks- possibly as much as 2 yrs. And CPS says the girl is 16, not 17. There are also questions about her citizenship.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080519.POLYGAMY19/TPStory/National

[mollymalone]

I read that article and it's more smoke and mirrors from flds members. I read where there were at least 5 Canadian girls and two of those were married to Warren Jeffs. There's no telling yet if this particular girl is one of those two. Regardless, the usual reason the girls are sent from one place to the other is for marriages.

[mysteriew]

I read a previous article from the Globe and Mail and it seemed totally for the FLDS members, with no hint that the girl could be anything other than visiting her grandmother. This article is the first that offers any question that it could be anything else and it does raise the question that the girl might be married at the YFZ.

I haven't seen any suggestion so far in the Canadian papers that there could be any other Canadian kids involved. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just that the papers I've seen haven't acknowledged it. Info releases to the media are more tightly controlled in Canada, so they might not have been able to get info on the other kids yet.

[mollymalone]

I read a previous article from the Globe and Mail and it seemed totally for the FLDS members, with no hint that the girl could be anything other than visiting her grandmother. This article is the first that offers any question that it could be anything else and it does raise the question that the girl might be married at the YFZ.

I haven't seen any suggestion so far in the Canadian papers that there could be any other Canadian kids involved. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just that the papers I've seen haven't acknowledged it. Info releases to the media are more tightly controlled in Canada, so they might not have been able to get info on the other kids yet.This is the first article I'd seen about the Canadians.

Children of Canadian women may be among those seized from Texas sect
At least 5 women living at polygamist compound came from B.C.
Daphne Bramham, Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, April 22, 2008

At least five Canadian women live in the fundamentalist Mormon compound in
Eldorado, Texas, and their children may be among the 416 children now in
protective custody. Teressa Wall Blackmore, who left the reclusive sect nearly two years ago, can name five young women sent from Bountiful, B.C. to marry American members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who are now living in Eldorado. Of the five, she says, two are married to FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs.

No one -- not Blackmore, Canadian government officials, B.C. Attorney-General Wally Oppal or the Texas authorities -- can say exactly how many underage Canadian mothers and children are in protective custody.
Not only are Texas authorities having trouble determining how many Canadians there are, they can't figure out who the children's parents are.

[mollymalone]

These articles are about the trafficing of women between Canada and AZ/Utah FLhttp://www.rickross.com/reference/p...olygamy103.html

From the link: Frequently, the girls are shipped out of town, to a sister FLDS town in Creston, British Columbia. In turn, that town ships girls to the Colorado City area.


http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy65.html
Trafficing in women

And I ran across this post by someone who lives near the Bountiful FLDS site:http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/the-yfz-flds-plight-some-interim-thoughts/
modest in 2008 Says:
April 24, 2008 1:28 PM
"I live close to the Canadian FLDS community and news here is that some of the children in Texas were Canadian kids sent to the ranch without their parents. The Canadian authorities are now getting involved too, making this an international, not just a Texas issue."

[mollymalone]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080502.polygamy031/BNStory/International/home
When the handsome ones go to the leaders
"And the discovery of a 17-year-old girl at the ranch from an FLDS community in British Columbia could expose a part of the church's life that governments on both sides of the border have long ignored. Her parents say she had been visiting her grandmother who was living at the Texas ranch. But a weeklong Globe and Mail investigation indicates the trip may have been a ride on a little-known underground railway that takes young girls across the Canada-U.S. border – in both directions – for one purpose: to be assigned as a so-called celestial bride to FLDS men.

Flora Jessop, a former FLDS member who fled at age 16 after she was forced to marry a cousin, said the practice of “trading” young women across the border was akin to international trafficking of young women for sexual purposes. ... Brenda Jensen, who was born into a polygamist FLDS family in B.C., said the insular communities require new blood “so they will not be so badly inbred.” The girls are taken across the border quietly at night and never return, Ms. Jensen said, adding, “The handsome ones go to the leaders.”

Mary Mackert, a former sixth wife in a celestial marriage, said she heard about an FLDS bishop in the U.S. who took a young Canadian girl as his second wife. In order to arrange for her U.S. immigration, the FLDS bishop divorced his first wife – whom he had legally married – and married the Canadian. She could then apply to stay in the U.S.
People travel between the FLDS communities in Canada and the U.S. all the time, she said. They get away with it, she said, because “they do not look like they are trafficking.”

[mysteriew]

But the only family who is talking is the family of the 16/17 year old. Otherwise it is rumor and speculation about who else from Canada might be involved, at least as far as I have seen.

Have you seen anything in the Texas press about how many they think they have that might be Canadian?

[mollymalone]

I tend to think with these reports that there are Canadian women/girls or even small children there. Imagine, sending a young child or even a baby from one country to another without one of its parents, to be raised by someone else that quite likely the parents don't know, realizing that child will face an early marriage or even possible abuse and there won't be anything the parents can do or say about it. Disgusting.

Edited to add: I think that we're not hearing more about this because there's been a lack of more definite information being released.

[mysteriew]

But the number of young mothers the state used as the basis of its raid on the ranch continues to shrink.
Judge Jay Weatherby heard two cases Tuesday that involve mothers who are disputed minors. He declared Natalia Jessop, 18, an adult. The judge postponed a decision on Mildred Jessop, whom the state also now says is an adult, until Thursday when hearings are scheduled for her children.

The state has now acknowledged in various court hearings that six of 26 disputed minors are adults. Hearings this afternoon may change the status of more women in that group.
http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9322072

[mollymalone]

The UN Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women has declared polygamy a human rights violation.

[mysteriew]

A lawyer for a 14-year-old FLDS girl argues her client - listed by the state of Texas as an underage mother - is not pregnant and does not have children.
Attorney Andrea Sloan with the Texas Advocacy Project said the girl has taken a pregnancy test to confirm she is not pregnant.
Texas child welfare officials originally claimed 31 girls from the YFZ Ranch between the ages 14 to 17 were either pregnant, have children or both.
So far, however, they have acknowledged that 11 girls are actually adults. At least six more are likely to get that designation today, when status hearings resume at the Tom Green County Courthouse.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9343001

If they don't start filing criminal charges soon, this is going to fall apart. They are losing impetus, losting public opinion. Filing the polygamy, incest and abuse charges would help a lot to pick it up.

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

If you are 18 and have a child or two, it is still pretty easy to track that back to before you are conception which may have been before you were 18 (simple math). The girls being 18 does not mean they were not abused. It simply means they are adults so they are not held by CPS. It does not make the crimes go away.

[mysteriew]

If you are 18 and have a child or two, it is still pretty easy to track that back to before you are conception which may have been before you were 18 (simple math). The girls being 18 does not mean they were not abused. It simply means they are adults so they are not held by CPS. It does not make the crimes go away.

But they also have to prove where the girls were when they conceived. If they were outside of Texas when they conceived, then Texas doesn't have jurisdiction. Also, the age of consent in some states, for instance in Utah is very low. So were they over the age of consent in the state where they conceived? Were they married in another state with a lower marriage age?

[mollymalone]

But they also have to prove where the girls were when they conceived. If they were outside of Texas when they conceived, then Texas doesn't have jurisdiction. Also, the age of consent in some states, for instance in Utah is very low. So were they over the age of consent in the state where they conceived? Were they married in another state with a lower marriage age?If they were at the YFZ ranch from its beginnings, and that's been how many years? It is likely that a good many of them conceived in Texas.

As far as criminal charges, the report that one of the women, Barbara Jessop was reluctant to even acknowledge the family plan because of charges, imo, means that there are some charges pending or likely against others.

[Trino]

It's horrible what's happened at Eldorado, but, honestly, how many girls on the outside conceive when they're underage w/o anyone being prosecuted?

[believe09]

So if the girls were under 16 when they conceived, the fathers of the children could be charged with stat rape, right? So now the state has to determine which of the men fathered which children by compelling the men to be swabbed for DNA...but first they have to figure out who actually conceived a child prior to age 16, and of the 31 females they focused on, 18 were adults or of the age of consent....:waitasec:

[mysteriew]

You know I am still having a problem with the alleged mothers being allowed to stay with their children. FLDS keeps whining about how they are being persecuted, but I am seeing favoritism in their treatment.

If CPS removes any other child because of suspected abuse or neglect in the household those children will be removed: even if they are nursing, even if they are newborns. Yet the FLDS mothers are still being allowed to remain with their children in custody. I say that isn't fair to the majority and is showing favoritism to the FLDS.

[mykodiak]

The FLDS is counting on that "persecution due to religion" phrase to win them more favors than would normally be granted. They have the history of it working in Utah and Arizona to back them on this one. If Texas authorities could have the chance to breathe for a second, they would throw some brakes on this. Once again the FLDS PR machine is working at full blast.

[FlowerChild]

It's horrible what's happened at Eldorado, but, honestly, how many girls on the outside conceive when they're underage w/o anyone being prosecuted?
The word you have to remember in other cases is free will - as it relates to CONSENT!
It also matters how old the man/boy who fathered the child is.
And did the girl have access to birth control? Was the INTENT for her to get pregnant?

Yes, young girls DO have sex and get pregnant. BUT even if they are below the legal age of consent one has to consider whether the girl did give her consent (freely) or was she FORCED to "marry" a man who was over 18 by her parents and her church. And did the girl have access to birth control - was she denied any education about sex or pregnancy, cut off from health care or even access to condoms and FORCED to have sex with the sole purpose of getting pregnant as soon as possible?

An ordinary 14 year old girl who is having sex and gets pregnant is usually engaging in sex because she WANTS TO, with a boy (or man) she chose. And I doubt that her MOTHER and FATHER handed her off in a "spiritual marriage" to a stranger at least 4 or 5 years older than her who very likely is at least a cousin (and might even be as close as a 1st cousin). I doubt most mothers want their 14 year old child to be having SEX and they certainly aren't going to APPROVE or CONDONE the sex OR be a party to handing their 14 year old daughter off to a man for the sole purpose of having sex and getting pregnant as soon as possible. These girls are handed OVER WILLINGLY BY THEIR PARENTS/GUARDIANS at ages of 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17- it's celebrated and their subsequent underage pregnancies are celebrated and their husband getting an additional wife every few years is also celebrated. And on the whim of their leader they might be "re-assigned" to another husband they don't even know before they have reached the age of 18. They are treated like cattle - something owned and controlled 100% - and with the blessing of everyone in their lives there they are married with a baby before they are old enough to get a driver's license.

And THAT is NOT the norm for a 14 year old girl who is pregnant out here in the "infidel" world.

My Opinion

[Moe]

Great post Flower, it truely is all about choice. The sad part is none of these girls understand the real world.