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Pepper
04-28-2008, 05:34 PM
Just heard that more than half the underage teen girls are or have been pregnant. Suprising? Nope. Abusive? You bet!!

txsvicki
04-28-2008, 05:39 PM
No it's not suprising. That's what they were bred or born for, to be a pedophile's sex slave.

TGIRecovered
04-28-2008, 06:21 PM
The girls must become invisible when they get pregnant, since none of those women interviewed by Larry King had seen or known of young, pregnant or married teens.
Susan

FlowerChild
04-28-2008, 06:30 PM
You guys do realize that they keep a fertility chart for every married woman in the FLDS, right? Because Warren Jeffs decreed that ONLY SEX FOR PROCREATION IS ALLOWED each husband has a chart for his wives and can only have sex with them during their "fertile time". Once they are pregnant, no more sex, once they are not ovulating, no more sex....but during their fertile time, they MUST have sex....because for them, it's all about REQUIRED procreation.

These young girls are used like brood mares...they are TRYING TO GET THEM PREGNANT as soon as possible, and after that, as many TIMES as possible. And they will KEEP doing it - because it's required as a tenet of their FAITH. Once the woman cannot have children any more (for whatever reason) all sex stops. You do not have sex for FUN in the FLDS, but for making babies - no babies - no sex. This is one of the reasons each man needs minimum 3 wives, otherwise you'd run out of fertile women very quickly. Soooo, if you keep marrying younger and younger new girls, you can keep having sex, and producing offspring right up until your death...you can't do that if all your wives are as old as YOU.

Pretty darn convenient for the men, huh? He just fathers the kids but cannot possibly PARENT them, support them or even remember all of them. He just contributes some sperm and then shows up and has family night - where he "trains" the next generation of child brides and goes on about his life - OUTSIDE THE HOME. The wives bear the kids, raise the kids, provide for the kids, care for the kids and Dad just reigns over the whole bunch from afar - with an iron fist. The women take all the blame if the kids get into trouble too - the woman was obviously not "sweet" enough during pregnancy or in training the children so they turned out all wrong. If the child is perfect, the DAD is credited...if not, it's the MOTHER that ruined the child.

So it does NOT surprise me that EVERY little child-bride is pregnant or has been pregnant - the INTENT is to get every female who has reached puberty with child immediately and keep them with child from then on.

Just get out the stud book and see which mare or filly is next in line in the breeding barn.....wonder if the men sit around at night and compare "percentages"? I mean does a "98% foal rate" get him special Temple privileges?

It's just :sick::sick::sick:

My Opinion

Pepper
04-28-2008, 06:33 PM
Sorry, can't find a link, but heard it on TV - Fox. Yeah TGI, they must be invisible! Sick.

golfmom
04-28-2008, 06:37 PM
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90B44QO0

31 of 53 teen girls at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had baby

FlowerChild
04-28-2008, 06:48 PM
463 children total in CPS custody - from newborns to age 17
250 girls, 213 boys
53 girls ages 14-17
31 of those 53 girls (14-15-16 and 17 years old) are either pregnant now or have AT LEAST ONE child (some may have more than one child, CPS is not sure yet)
NONE of the girls is legally married

Pepper
04-28-2008, 06:52 PM
463 children total in CPS custody - from newborns to age 17
250 girls, 213 boys
53 girls ages 14-17
31 of those 53 girls (14-15-16 and 17 years old) are either pregnant now or have AT LEAST ONE child (some may have more than one child, CPS is not sure yet)
NONE of the girls is legally married

Wouldn't you like to know how many boys between 14-17? It should be about the same 45-55, but given their habit of sending the teen boys off, I bet there are less than 40 boys in that age bracket.

golfmom
04-28-2008, 06:57 PM
I posted an article in the news thread. They did have a doctor that was licensed to practice in Utah, Arizona and Texas in the compound. Funny, he never reported a thing.

FlowerChild
04-28-2008, 06:58 PM
One girl, younger than 16, has four children and says she is pregnant again.
Another, interviewed by law enforcement, looks at her husband when asked her age before responding that she is 18.



The affidavits also for the first time provide detail about some children first interviewed on the ranch by CPS case workers in what Meisner said Tuesday was a "very volatile situation."
Long described CPS interviews with seven girls, one of whom said she has two children but doesn't know her own age. Her 8-year-old stepdaughter, however, told CPS the girl is younger than 16 and has four children, the affidavit states.
Another young-looking girl, asked by case workers her age, looked at her husband, who said, "You are 18," according to the affidavit. The girl then told CPS she is 18 and has a 10-month-old.



Long also described overseeing the removal of marriage records from the compound - one of which documented an FLDS member with 20 wives with no records of death or divorce, according to the affidavit.
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/10/teen-girls-from-yfz-ranch-near-eldorado-have/

golfmom
04-28-2008, 06:59 PM
TEEN BOYS

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271197,00.html

SAN ANGELO, Texas More than two dozen FLDS teenage boys removed from the YFZ Ranch nearly two weeks ago are trying to maintain their way of life nearly 400 miles from the judge that will soon decide their fate.

"Every indication is that the boys are doing fine," said Dan Adams, owner of the Cal Farley's Boys Ranch, located about 400 miles from San Angelo.

Pepper
04-28-2008, 07:01 PM
TEEN BOYS

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695271197,00.html

SAN ANGELO, Texas More than two dozen FLDS teenage boys removed from the YFZ Ranch nearly two weeks ago are trying to maintain their way of life nearly 400 miles from the judge that will soon decide their fate.

"Every indication is that the boys are doing fine," said Dan Adams, owner of the Cal Farley's Boys Ranch, located about 400 miles from San Angelo.

So I made a good guess. Probably less than 30 boys 14-17. Hmmmm. :furious:

golfmom
04-28-2008, 07:02 PM
So I made a good guess. Probably less than 30 boys 14-17. Hmmmm. :furious:

Yeah, Pepper when you made that guess ... I had to google to see how close you were ... I just had a feeling you nailed it.

FlowerChild
04-28-2008, 07:04 PM
Wouldn't you like to know how many boys between 14-17? It should be about the same 45-55, but given their habit of sending the teen boys off, I bet there are less than 40 boys in that age bracket.

There are even FEWER! About 2 dozen teenage boys are reported in CPS Custody - THAT'S ALL. There are 53 age 14-17 girls and about 24 age 14-17 boys.

They are keeping the teenage boys separate - at a "Boys Ranch" - they aren't with the younger children.

golfmom
04-28-2008, 07:06 PM
Here's the girls ob-gyn ... I wouldn't mind giving a call and a piece of my mind!

Lloyd H. Barlow MD
2420 County Rd 300
Eldorado Texas 76936
Phone: 325-450-3888

http://www.azmd.gov/profile/profile.asp?LicenseType=MD&LicenseNum=31408

Pepper
04-28-2008, 07:06 PM
Yeah, Pepper when you made that guess ... I had to google to see how close you were ... I just had a feeling you nailed it.

Thanks for looking that up golfmom! So now the question is that given birth rates of boys vs. girls in a large population are similar, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BOYS? Were they exiled? Did they suffer more birth defects that caused an early death? Or, horrors, were they murdered?

golfmom
04-28-2008, 07:50 PM
Thanks for looking that up golfmom! So now the question is that given birth rates of boys vs. girls in a large population are similar, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BOYS? Were they exiled? Did they suffer more birth defects that caused an early death? Or, horrors, were they murdered?

I think that they were very selective of what teen boys were "invited" to join them at YFZ. I really don't think that the boys were abandoned in TX, but were probably left behind in UT or AZ.

Peculiar Petunia
04-28-2008, 07:55 PM
If you have 2 carriers of fumarase deficiency, there's a 25% chance of any child of theirs dying from it, 50% chance of producing another carrier, and a 25% chance of having the disease stop with the child because neither gene is passed on. I wonder if there's something that is sex-linked and lethal in this population, such as Duchenne muscular dystrophy, where it kills the boys. Or perhaps there's something sex-linked, like color blindness, that might drive the leaders to do away with them.
Just my opinion: I've got lots!

Leila
04-28-2008, 08:25 PM
I haven't read this whole thread yet, but Nancy Grace is covering this now. It's being reported that 31 underage girls ARE pregnant. The statistics are 3 out of 5 teenage girls. 31 girls out of 53, ages 14 to 17

Warren Jeffs refers to sexual intercourse as "Heavenly Relations."

Nancy Grace is also addressing the alleged 2 missing children. Interestingly, the mother said originally 2 boys are missing, but now says the 2-year-old is a girl.

Pepper
04-28-2008, 08:31 PM
I think that they were very selective of what teen boys were "invited" to join them at YFZ. I really don't think that the boys were abandoned in TX, but were probably left behind in UT or AZ.
Oh, I didn't think of that. That would mean that either there are parents in TX with kids left behind in AZ/UT or there are parents in AZ/UT whose kids were sent to TX without the parents. Abusive either way you look at it.

Leila
04-28-2008, 08:34 PM
Here's the girls ob-gyn ... I wouldn't mind giving a call and a piece of my mind!

Lloyd H. Barlow MD
2420 County Rd 300
Eldorado Texas 76936
Phone: 325-450-3888

http://www.azmd.gov/profile/profile.asp?LicenseType=MD&LicenseNum=31408

Two legal experts on Nancy Grace are discussing the doctor now, and both agree that if the doctor was aware he was delivering babies to underage girls, and not reporting it, he could be charged with aiding and abetting in a crime, or covering up a crime.

cheko1
04-28-2008, 08:46 PM
They need to castrate every old geezer who laid a hand on them young girls!!!!!

Drs a party to this abuse too??? What were they thinking? Charge them right along with the rest.

mollymalone
04-28-2008, 08:50 PM
Two legal experts on Nancy Grace are discussing the doctor now, and both agree that if the doctor was aware he was delivering babies to underage girls, and not reporting it, he could be charged with aiding and abetting in a crime, or covering up a crime.
When was he licensed? In other words how long has he been delivering the babies? I read where a few would be taken into hospitals, but the hubby would be right there with them, and when they were asked who the father was, they'd answer "I don't know," so they could apply for benefits. There were also midwives who delivered babies, at least in the Canadian community.

I hope they nail his butt.

mollymalone
04-28-2008, 08:52 PM
They need to castrate every old geezer who laid a hand on them young girls!!!!!

Drs a party to this abuse too??? What were they thinking? Charge them right along with the rest.He's related to them..and he's an FLDS member I believe. That's what they were thinking, get a family member as a doc and then that removes the risk of taking any of them to a real hospital.

mollymalone
04-28-2008, 08:53 PM
I haven't read this whole thread yet, but Nancy Grace is covering this now. It's being reported that 31 underage girls ARE pregnant. The statistics are 3 out of 5 teenage girls. 31 girls out of 53, ages 14 to 17

Warren Jeffs refers to sexual intercourse as "Heavenly Relations."

Nancy Grace is also addressing the alleged 2 missing children. Interestingly, the mother said originally 2 boys are missing, but now says the 2-year-old is a girl.:bang: Now that's a "mother!" She can't remember the sex of the child? GMAB it's probably not her child anyway, and told CPS so many lies about how many, their names and whether they were boys or girls that she's forgotten which lie she's told to whom.

FlowerChild
04-28-2008, 09:08 PM
The words are all so "pretty"
"Be Sweet"
"Celestial Marriage"
"Heavenly Relations"

and the reality is so UGLY
OBEY, LIE, SUBMIT
POLYGAMY,BIGAMY,ADULTERY
RAPE, SEXUAL ASSAULT, PEDOPHELIA

My Opinion

mollymalone
04-28-2008, 09:20 PM
The words are all so "pretty"
"Be Sweet"
"Celestial Marriage"
"Heavenly Relations"

and the reality is so UGLY
OBEY, LIE, SUBMIT
POLYGAMY,BIGAMY,ADULTERY
RAPE, SEXUAL ASSAULT, PEDOPHELIA

My OpinionHave you heard the "keep clean" or "keep sweet" in Jeff's own voice? Sickening. They're fond of euphemisms for what is essentially a pit of personal hell for people they abuse.

mollymalone
04-28-2008, 09:27 PM
QUOTE golfmom
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/32701
SAN ANGELO, Texas -- Here's what's known about Dr. Lloyd H. Barlow:
-- He's licensed to practice medicine in Utah, in Arizona and -- since June 2005 -- in Texas.
-- He has no disciplinary actions against him in the states in which he's licensed to practice.
-- He operates a medical clinic at the YFZ Ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the polygamist compound raided by Texas authorities beginning April 3.
------------
A physician has a heightened duty to report suspected child abuse under Texas law, he said. Professionals must report it to authorities within 48 hours.

Anyone who suspects but doesn't report child abuse can be held liable for a Class B misdemeanor, which is punishable by up to 180 days in jail and a fine up to $2,000, according to the Department of Family and Protective Services.
__________________ UNQUOTE

So if he's been there since 2005, and all of those 35 young girls are preggers, then he's probably been the only doctor they've seen, would that be a separate class B misdemeanor for EACH girl? And for any others he's treated, delivered and not reported?

FlowerChild
04-28-2008, 09:42 PM
QUOTE golfmom
http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/32701
SAN ANGELO, Texas -- Here's what's known about Dr. Lloyd H. Barlow:
-- He's licensed to practice medicine in Utah, in Arizona and -- since June 2005 -- in Texas.
-- He has no disciplinary actions against him in the states in which he's licensed to practice.
-- He operates a medical clinic at the YFZ Ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the polygamist compound raided by Texas authorities beginning April 3.
------------
A physician has a heightened duty to report suspected child abuse under Texas law, he said. Professionals must report it to authorities within 48 hours.

Anyone who suspects but doesn't report child abuse can be held liable for a Class B misdemeanor, which is punishable by up to 180 days in jail and a fine up to $2,000, according to the Department of Family and Protective Services.
__________________ UNQUOTE

So if he's been there since 2005, and all of those 35 young girls are preggers, then he's probably been the only doctor they've seen, would that be a separate class B misdemeanor for EACH girl? And for any others he's treated, delivered and not reported?

You wanna bet that Dr Barlow and his "wives" and family are enjoying the warm Mexican sunshine right now? I betcha Dr Barlow was gone before the ink was dry on the search warrants - he KNOWS TOO MUCH to be left vulnerable or REACHABLE by LE or CPS. And I am sure they need a good US Dr at the compound in Mexico. Wanna bet Dr Barlow won't be testifying to ANYTHING or facing ANY CHARGES? If the FLDS can make him vanish, new name, new life...they will. He could SINK the FLDS and they aren't ABOUT to let a mere DR do that. Heck, for all we know he had a few wives and several KIDS at the YFZ Ranch himself - CPS may have some of his kids in custody...

Ugh, I am drinking Pepto like water these days - just how deep does gangrene that is the FLDS GO???
My Opinion

mollymalone
04-28-2008, 09:50 PM
You wanna bet that Dr Barlow and his "wives" and family are enjoying the warm Mexican sunshine right now? I betcha Dr Barlow was gone before the ink was dry on the search warrants - he KNOWS TOO MUCH to be left vulnerable or REACHABLE by LE or CPS. And I am sure they need a good US Dr at the compound in Mexico. Wanna bet Dr Barlow won't be testifying to ANYTHING or facing ANY CHARGES? If the FLDS can make him vanish, new name, new life...they will. He could SINK the FLDS and they aren't ABOUT to let a mere DR do that. Heck, for all we know he had a few wives and several KIDS at the YFZ Ranch himself - CPS may have some of his kids in custody...

Ugh, I am drinking Pepto like water these days - just how deep does gangrene that is the FLDS GO???
My OpinionWith 10,000 persons and how many compounds, not to mention the individual homes that have been assimilated into the neighborhoods of Salt Lake and other cities? Add in those who helped them do their nefarious schemes. That's how deep. You're right, he's probably vanished from the YFZ over the border or elsewhere.

biggirl
04-28-2008, 09:58 PM
The words are all so "pretty"
"Be Sweet"
"Celestial Marriage"
"Heavenly Relations"

and the reality is so UGLY
OBEY, LIE, SUBMIT
POLYGAMY,BIGAMY,ADULTERY
RAPE, SEXUAL ASSAULT, PEDOPHELIA

My Opinion

FC, you took the word right outta my mouth. I will not ever think about the word "sweet" in the same way again.

The more you hear about these people the more outragious it all is.:furious:

I am all for the freedoms we all enjoy as Americans. I am just not all for a forced breeding stable of young girls by old fart men.

I think castration is a bit too good for those men. Maybe prison and bubbas would work.

golfmom
04-28-2008, 10:23 PM
Oh, I didn't think of that. That would mean that either there are parents in TX with kids left behind in AZ/UT or there are parents in AZ/UT whose kids were sent to TX without the parents. Abusive either way you look at it.

OH Pepper we were WAY off . . .


Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split 197 girls and 196 boys but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90B77NG0

Trino
04-28-2008, 10:25 PM
I think castration is a bit too good for those men. Maybe prison and bubbas would work.

How about adding a lawsuit by these women?

I know the children are being protected, but IMO it would be best for these kids to be integrated into society/reality ASAP. Certainly, they should not go back to the mess they were in. I doubt the brainwashed (IMO) women would be able to care for them outside of what they have been taught. If there is a possibility they could be placed for adoption, they cannot be sheltered forever.

Pepper
04-28-2008, 10:31 PM
OH Pepper we were WAY off . . .


Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split 197 girls and 196 boys but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90B77NG0

WHOA! They have some serious 'spainin to do. I hope to God the CPS/LE get to the bottom of this. That is just way too off balance to be natural.

I watched that Flora Jessop tape on Utube where she talks about the runaway girls that were found bound and murdered in the water. I think murder is not beyond the capabilities of this group.

Leila
04-28-2008, 10:47 PM
OH Pepper we were WAY off . . .


Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split 197 girls and 196 boys but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90B77NG0

So, suddenly, when we reach the teenage years the numbers change drastically. In the teenage population, there's 3 girls for every 1 boy.

mysteriew
04-28-2008, 11:38 PM
Wouldn't you like to know how many boys between 14-17? It should be about the same 45-55, but given their habit of sending the teen boys off, I bet there are less than 40 boys in that age bracket.

They removed the older boys early on, though I don't know exactly what ages. There were a couple of dozen of the boys.

mollymalone
04-29-2008, 01:05 AM
WHOA! They have some serious 'spainin to do. I hope to God the CPS/LE get to the bottom of this. That is just way too off balance to be natural.

I watched that Flora Jessop tape on Utube where she talks about the runaway girls that were found bound and murdered in the water. I think murder is not beyond the capabilities of this group.A lot of disparity in the numbers. I think you're right. I listened to the video as well and read this:

http://www.correntewire.com/flds_stealing_the_schools_money_changing_texas_law
"They are right to be fearful. Over the years at least 25 murders are known to have been committed by polygamist leaders and their followers, under the principle of Blood Atonement "the article of faith that any sin against the various Prophets, any defiance of his authority, is punishable by death. There have been many unsolved murders and disappearances in the Four Corners region; people down there don't discuss the polygs, much less criticize them."

mollymalone
04-29-2008, 01:09 AM
I also found there was a movie made about the FLDS and the practice of underage girls. I never heard about this film. Does anyone remember it?

A 1981 made-for-TV film Child Bride of Short Creek starring Helen Hunt, Dee Wallace and Diane Lane exposed the tyranny and exploitation to wide notice, an uproar that just as quickly faded.

Pepper
04-29-2008, 01:14 AM
A lot of disparity in the numbers. I think you're right. I listened to the video as well and read this:

http://www.correntewire.com/flds_stealing_the_schools_money_changing_texas_law
"They are right to be fearful. Over the years at least 25 murders are known to have been committed by polygamist leaders and their followers, under the principle of Blood Atonement "the article of faith that any sin against the various Prophets, any defiance of his authority, is punishable by death. There have been many unsolved murders and disappearances in the Four Corners region; people down there don't discuss the polygs, much less criticize them."

Molly the link above didn't work for me. Said "Page Not Found".

Floh
04-29-2008, 01:18 AM
I also found there was a movie made about the FLDS and the practice of underage girls. I never heard about this film. Does anyone remember it?

A 1981 made-for-TV film Child Bride of Short Creek starring Helen Hunt, Dee Wallace and Diane Lane exposed the tyranny and exploitation to wide notice, an uproar that just as quickly faded.

Just what i fear will happen this time over the Texas raid. :(

mollymalone
04-29-2008, 01:23 AM
Molly the link above didn't work for me. Said "Page Not Found".Okay, for some reason it didn't work this time for me either so I got into it this way:

http://www.correntewire.com/flds_stealing_the_schools_money_changing_texas_law s

If it doesn't work again, go to google, paste that url into the search thingy and it will come up with it, click from there and it should work.

Edited to add: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082169/
That's for the movie Child Bride of Short Creek

mysteriew
04-29-2008, 01:48 AM
Okay, for some reason it didn't work this time for me either so I got into it this way:

http://www.correntewire.com/flds_stealing_the_schools_money_changing_texas_law s

If it doesn't work again, go to google, paste that url into the search thingy and it will come up with it, click from there and it should work.

Edited to add: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082169/
That's for the movie Child Bride of Short Creek

The article in question is titled
FLDS: Stealing the Schools' Money, Changing Texas' Laws

And the tidbits are from a comment titled
FLDS: domination, crime, the law & social conscience
Submitted by bringiton on Fri, 2008-04-25 23:23.

mollymalone
04-29-2008, 03:11 AM
The article in question is titled
FLDS: Stealing the Schools' Money, Changing Texas' Laws

And the tidbits are from a comment titled
FLDS: domination, crime, the law & social conscience
Submitted by bringiton on Fri, 2008-04-25 23:23.Thanks for adding that. It's amazing what kind of
information is out there on the FLDS, but not really that surprising considering there are people who've been
trying to get something done for years.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5737904.html
There also is one pregnant 13-year-old, "but most are in the 15 and 16 range at the time they
conceived," Azar said. "Some teens have multiple children.

mykodiak
04-29-2008, 08:13 AM
Here's the exact numbers and age ranges of the children:

Texas child welfare officials released to The AP statistics of children taken into state custody from the Schleicher County polygamist sect's ranch. Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar said some numbers could change:
Total children: 463
Birth-2 years, girls: 49
Birth-2 years, boys: 52
3-5 years, girls: 46
3-5 years, boys: 53
6-9 years, girls: 68
6-9 years, boys: 63
10-13 years, girls: 34
10-13 years, boys: 28
14-17 years, girls: 53
14-17 years, boys: 17
Number of girls 14 to 17 who've been pregnant: 31http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/29/state-31-sect-girls-pregnant-or-moms/

Boy to girl ratio stays equal until the age of 14. :furious:

golfmom
04-29-2008, 08:47 AM
Somewhere in one of the massive threads I posted a link and response from an attorney representing FLDS regarding the "lost boys" situation.

The upshot was, he didn't deny that the church removed teen boys. His argument was that the church had the right to determine the membership and that there was no protection of age in relation to membership.

SewingDeb
04-29-2008, 10:17 AM
OH Pepper we were WAY off . . .


Of those 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split 197 girls and 196 boys but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90B77NG0

From your link:
There are a total of 463 FLDS children - 250 females, 213 males - in state custody in Texas. Here is a breakdown of that count:
* 0-2: 101, 49 females, 52 males
* 3-5: 99, 46 females, 53 males
* 6-9: 131, 68 females, 63 males
* 10-13: 62, 34 females, 28 males
* 14-17: 42, 27 females, 15 males
* Disputed age: 26 females, now classified as 17 or younger.
* Two boys who turned 18 while in state custody also have voluntarily chosen to stay with younger boys.

FlowerChild
04-29-2008, 11:29 AM
Somewhere in one of the massive threads I posted a link and response from an attorney representing FLDS regarding the "lost boys" situation.

The upshot was, he didn't deny that the church removed teen boys. His argument was that the church had the right to determine the membership and that there was no protection of age in relation to membership.

Well Geeze, it's all so clear now....that makes constantly abandoning/dumping 90% of 14-17 year old BOYS on a highway outside town OK then.......
(removing tongue from cheek)

I guess mothers who abandon their newborn infants in dumpsters and trash cans should just start telling LE and the authorities that their "Church" determined that there is no protection of AGE in relation to membership and that their "Church" had the "right" to determine that newborns can't be members.....

My Opinion

Clearly Confused
04-29-2008, 11:59 AM
I have wondered since this first started about the number of boys. This is scary.

I an also curious about the cementery at that freak palace.

mollymalone
04-29-2008, 12:32 PM
These women have been going on tv saying "I need the children" "We need the children" and
that's because the girls are currency within their sect.

Here's the other reason they are saying they "NEED" the children back:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/flds.openness/
To really enjoy heaven, you have to be married and you have to have your kids with
you," Walsh said. "Everything experienced on Earth will be in its more perfected form in
heaven." If you haven't learned the lessons you needed to learn on Earth, "you would have
to learn these lessons in the spirit world" before entering heaven, he said. If your children
are taken away, you may have to learn how to be a good parent in the spirit world, thereby
postponing your passage to heaven, Walsh said.

Vegas Bride
04-29-2008, 01:32 PM
So what about the children that have been taken away from their parents and given to others to raise? Why don't the women cry out for them?
I think that in time, when the children who have been taken away have been able to readjust we will hear many of them say how happy they are that they were rescued. No, their life wont be all warm and fuzzy and wonderful, it will be a struggle, but now they will have a chance to become the people they want to be, not just a piece of property to be used by Jeffs and his cronies.

VB

mollymalone
04-29-2008, 01:40 PM
Those who are older children who are already entrenched may choose to go back to the sect. Some might try to run away from their group foster homes.
I'm hoping that if not all of them, at least the majority of them choose to stay out. The younger children, if they're not returned to the parents, (either those at the ranch or in other states who let them be taken to Texas,) probably will adjust rather quickly with counseling. I hope that they do and that they have a better life than being a sex slave or groomed to be an abuser.

ThoughtFox
04-29-2008, 02:23 PM
Somewhere in one of the massive threads I posted a link and response from an attorney representing FLDS regarding the "lost boys" situation.

The upshot was, he didn't deny that the church removed teen boys. His argument was that the church had the right to determine the membership and that there was no protection of age in relation to membership.
That is just despicable because by denying them "membership" they are throwing these boys out on the street in a world they know nothing about.

I saw one of the women who had run away from a similar sect and her own brother had been tossed out and had to live with her. She said he had alot of problems understanding it. (Well, who in their right mind wouldn't?)

I mean what that attorney is saying is that they have a God-given right to abandon their children at a certain age. Does anyone else in the U.S. of A. have that right? No. I don't think religion allows for child abandonment.

They ought to ask all those girls how many of them had brothers who disappeared, and then haul those Moms to jail until they speak up for their sons and nephews. Witches. They've been out now for weeks, and they are still trying to go back and crawl inside their shells instead of taking control of their lives and children. Don't they miss their sons?

It makes me so mad I could spit - I have two sons and three brothers, and love them all dearly. This case makes me crazy every time I start reading about it. :furious:

LinasK
04-29-2008, 04:11 PM
The Associated Press
Published: April 29, 2008SAN ANTONIO, Texas (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/29/america/texas.php#): Texas child welfare officials say nearly 60 percent of the underage girls taken in a raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas either have children or are pregnant. more at link:http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/29/america/texas.php

Trino
04-29-2008, 05:14 PM
That is just despicable because by denying them "membership" they are throwing these boys out on the street in a world they know nothing about.

I saw one of the women who had run away from a similar sect and her own brother had been tossed out and had to live with her. She said he had alot of problems understanding it. (Well, who in their right mind wouldn't?)

I mean what that attorney is saying is that they have a God-given right to abandon their children at a certain age. Does anyone else in the U.S. of A. have that right? No. I don't think religion allows for child abandonment.

They ought to ask all those girls how many of them had brothers who disappeared, and then haul those Moms to jail until they speak up for their sons and nephews. Witches. They've been out now for weeks, and they are still trying to go back and crawl inside their shells instead of taking control of their lives and children. Don't they miss their sons?

It makes me so mad I could spit - I have two sons and three brothers, and love them all dearly. This case makes me crazy every time I start reading about it. :furious:

Thank you for saying this on behalf of boys. It seems so much emphasis has been on the girls, but a mother is a mother of both sexes. How could a woman let her son(s) go and not be concerned?

Leila
04-29-2008, 05:20 PM
Thanks for adding that. It's amazing what kind of
information is out there on the FLDS, but not really that surprising considering there are people who've been
trying to get something done for years.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/5737904.html
There also is one pregnant 13-year-old, "but most are in the 15 and 16 range at the time they
conceived," Azar said. "Some teens have multiple children.

The teenage girls who are pregnant or who already have children, are not considered a child by FLDS standards. They are wives and mothers. So, there won't be any FLDS members trying to claim these girls as "their child." I can't see any FLDS man claiming, "hey you're holding my 6th wife captive."

These teens need help. I'd like to see them go to individual homes. Ideally, an older couple with college-age or beyond children, who may have room in their home for a young teen and their child/children. The teenage mother could be tutored to bring her up to her grade level, with the goal of entering high school eventually. The older couple could provide child care while the girl is in school, and help the teen mother to adapt to life outside the cult.

This type of setting would give these teenagers the more one-on-one help they need, and place them in a family situation that could help them. The homes don't necessarily have to be in the foster care system. I'm sure there's a lot of "empty nest" parents in the state of Texas who would volunteer, and once approved, make a good home for a young teen and her child, giving them a fresh start. The state could provide some educational grants to help these teens achieve goals beyond high school.

jubie
04-29-2008, 07:12 PM
That is just despicable because by denying them "membership" they are throwing these boys out on the street in a world they know nothing about.

I saw one of the women who had run away from a similar sect and her own brother had been tossed out and had to live with her. She said he had alot of problems understanding it. (Well, who in their right mind wouldn't?)

I mean what that attorney is saying is that they have a God-given right to abandon their children at a certain age. Does anyone else in the U.S. of A. have that right? No. I don't think religion allows for child abandonment.

They ought to ask all those girls how many of them had brothers who disappeared, and then haul those Moms to jail until they speak up for their sons and nephews. Witches. They've been out now for weeks, and they are still trying to go back and crawl inside their shells instead of taking control of their lives and children. Don't they miss their sons?

It makes me so mad I could spit - I have two sons and three brothers, and love them all dearly. This case makes me crazy every time I start reading about it. :furious:

:clap: Excellent post about the lostboys, Thoughtfox, I too have a son and other young men in our family and it makes my heart ache to imagine losing any of them... how on earth could a mother allow (or father for that matter) send their child away. Makes me ill and I wish them severe punishment.

Jubie

mykodiak
04-29-2008, 07:16 PM
SAN MARCOS, Texas - One of the hundreds of young polygamist-sect members taken into state custody gave birth Tuesday to a healthy boy while child welfare officials, state troopers and fellow sect members stood watch outside the maternity ward.I sincerely hope this baby boy doesn't become another "lost boy" of the FLDS. Of course, since he is a "ward of the state", maybe he will be saved.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080429/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

txsvicki
04-29-2008, 07:43 PM
This case makes me angry every time I try to read about it or see it on TV, too. Those horrible women repulse me even if they are brainwashed. I think the men and adult women both are just evil, the men especially. I doubt if the state will let just individuals take any of the underage kids without actually becoming foster parents and going through the training. I can't see many people just suddenly wanting to become foster parents and taking in only one older troubled child either, and many older couples are already raising grandkids.

Blue_Dolphin308
04-29-2008, 09:14 PM
Under guard, polygamist teen has a baby boy

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

SAN MARCOS, Texas (AP) -- One of the hundreds of young polygamist-sect members taken into state custody gave birth Tuesday to a healthy boy while child welfare officials, state troopers and fellow sect members stood watch outside the maternity ward

Trino
04-29-2008, 09:31 PM
Cripes. Charge these people, and do it now!

The men IMO are pedophiles. I don't have much empathy for the women either. How can they say they love their children so much but allow molestation and abandonment of these same childen?

mykodiak
04-29-2008, 09:48 PM
I seriously doubt LE is going to rush into anything. They will make sure they have an ironclad case before they charge anybody with anything.

mysteriew
04-29-2008, 11:37 PM
I seriously doubt LE is going to rush into anything. They will make sure they have an ironclad case before they charge anybody with anything.

I agree. I don't think they will rush into anything, and they would be fools if they did. I think they will still be waiting on the DNA, then reviewing the DNA along with the genealogy and the marriage records for quite a while. (I think they will go after incest charges)

One of the major hurdles they have to overcome is to prove that each person is who they (authorities) say they are, prove their ages, and then prove their crimes. For them to say that adult Jimmy "spiritually married" minor Susie, then Susie standing up and saying my name is Sarah and I am 18, it could blow their whole case.

I read that when they took the DNA, they assigned a number to each child, took a picture of the child and put the number on it, put the number on the DNA sample and they tried to obtain as much info as possible about the child. The same would have been done for each alleged parent. So if Susie stands up and says "no, I am Sarah" the difference in names won't have quite the same impact because they will have pictures and the samples will have been tracked by number instead of a name. Now they just need to connect the persons with each marital and geneology record.

I also think the charges will come in small groups at first, three or four at a time. Then it may pick up.

philamena
04-29-2008, 11:45 PM
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90B44QO0

31 of 53 teen girls at FLDS ranch are pregnant or had baby

So where are the naysayers now?
The number of pregnant teens makes me sick.
Those teens should have been attending high school and going to ball games were used as sex slave baby making machines by old psycho men who used religion as an excuse! bleckkkkkkkkk

LinasK
04-30-2008, 01:18 AM
These teens need help. I'd like to see them go to individual homes. Ideally, an older couple with college-age or beyond children, who may have room in their home for a young teen and their child/children. The teenage mother could be tutored to bring her up to her grade level, with the goal of entering high school eventually. The older couple could provide child care while the girl is in school, and help the teen mother to adapt to life outside the cult.

This type of setting would give these teenagers the more one-on-one help they need, and place them in a family situation that could help them. The homes don't necessarily have to be in the foster care system. I'm sure there's a lot of "empty nest" parents in the state of Texas who would volunteer, and once approved, make a good home for a young teen and her child, giving them a fresh start. The state could provide some educational grants to help these teens achieve goals beyond high school.

Excellent idea Leila!:clap:

LinasK
04-30-2008, 01:20 AM
Under guard, polygamist teen has a baby boy

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

SAN MARCOS, Texas (AP) -- One of the hundreds of young polygamist-sect members taken into state custody gave birth Tuesday to a healthy boy while child welfare officials, state troopers and fellow sect members stood watch outside the maternity ward

Hopefully the girl didn't have to have a silent birth and could scream her head off as much as she needed or got an epidural for the pain!

This is one baby who won't be waterboarded!

Pepper
04-30-2008, 01:21 AM
Under guard, polygamist teen has a baby boy

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/29/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

SAN MARCOS, Texas (AP) -- One of the hundreds of young polygamist-sect members taken into state custody gave birth Tuesday to a healthy boy while child welfare officials, state troopers and fellow sect members stood watch outside the maternity ward

Wonder if she was given pain meds or if she was allowed to scream? :mad:

Pepper
04-30-2008, 01:22 AM
LinasK we were posting the same thing at the same time!

LinasK
04-30-2008, 01:23 AM
LinasK we were posting the same thing at the same time!

Great minds think alike!

cheko1
04-30-2008, 02:04 AM
So where are the naysayers now?
The number of pregnant teens makes me sick.
Those teens should have been attending high school and going to ball games were used as sex slave baby making machines by old psycho men who used religion as an excuse! bleckkkkkkkkk

Hubby heard on the radio this morning the older kids had never watched TV before & one of there famorite shows is American Idol. Can you imagine never watching TV? Wow them parents are total azzes!!!!

LinasK
04-30-2008, 02:08 AM
Hubby heard on the radio this morning the older kids had never watched TV before & one of there famorite shows is American Idol. Can you imagine never watching TV? Wow them parents are total azzes!!!!

I sure hope the TV sets are turned on and the kids get to see stuff like this. Not all TV is bad, there are also educational shows for kids. It will open up their minds.

P.S. American Idol is a favorite in our household too. Especially for the 7-year-old!

Leila
04-30-2008, 03:48 AM
Here's an interesting article on the birth of a baby boy to one of the FLDS teens in state custody. The state says she's under 18, while the FLDS, who identified her as Pamela Jeffs, says she's 18. But they do admit that she's got a 16-month-old child too.

Of particular interest is the comment at the end of the article by a local pilot.............

Eldorado pilot J.D. Doyle said between 60 and 80 people can usually be seen from the air working on the ranch during the day. On Tuesday, however, not a single person was out.
"It's just barren," he said.


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9103069

mysteriew
04-30-2008, 11:07 AM
Here's an interesting article on the birth of a baby boy to one of the FLDS teens in state custody. The state says she's under 18, while the FLDS, who identified her as Pamela Jeffs, says she's 18. But they do admit that she's got a 16-month-old child too.

Of particular interest is the comment at the end of the article by a local pilot.............

Eldorado pilot J.D. Doyle said between 60 and 80 people can usually be seen from the air working on the ranch during the day. On Tuesday, however, not a single person was out.
"It's just barren," he said.


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9103069

The article says that the 40 women who went to the shelter are now back in the compound. I wish the state would discuss that. I am not sure if it is true, or just a FLDS claim. If they left, I hope the state investigates and tries to find out if they had received any threats or just why they did leave.

Moe
04-30-2008, 11:32 AM
I would like to know how many DNA tests the men have taken, can't find any updates on this. Are they all gone?

FlowerChild
04-30-2008, 11:43 AM
The article says that the 40 women who went to the shelter are now back in the compound. I wish the state would discuss that. I am not sure if it is true, or just a FLDS claim. If they left, I hope the state investigates and tries to find out if they had received any threats or just why they did leave.
The woman of the FLDS are NOT GOING TO LEAVE the FLDS while CPS has their kids. They have no money, no job and no HOME if they leave and the FLDS is certainly NOT going to get lawyers for a woman who has LEFT the FLDS. The FLDS is holding the Mothers Hostage with their kids - something they have done for 100 years. Sure, ANYONE can leave...you just don't get to take your kids with you when you do.

The FLDS Moms will stay with the FLDS - and frankly, I think that they will abandon their children before they will leave the only life they have ever known. they fear "Hell" more than they fear anything CPS or the LAW can do to them. The FLDS Leadership is going to use every resource they have to MAKE SURE not a single mother from YFZ "turns traitor". The woman may not realize it, but they actually hold all the power in this game - but I am also certain that "keeping sweet" does not allow a woman to leverage this advantage....so most of the women would NEVER think that way - it would never occur to them.

Ahh, it will just take ONE WOMAN with a spine - one woman who has a spark of independence that hasn't been beaten and "controlled" out of her. Just one woman who doesn't "feel sweet". One woman from the YFZ group could literally take down the whole FLDS single handedly.

My opinion

Moe
04-30-2008, 11:48 AM
The woman of the FLDS are NOT GOING TO LEAVE the FLDS while CPS has their kids. They have no money, no job and no HOME if they leave and the FLDS is certainly NOT going to get lawyers for a woman who has LEFT the FLDS. The FLDS is holding the Mothers Hostage with their kids - something they have done for 100 years. Sure, ANYONE can leave...you just don't get to take your kids with you when you do.

The FLDS Moms will stay with the FLDS - and frankly, I think that they will abandon their children before they will leave the only life they have ever known. they fear "Hell" more than they fear anything CPS or the LAW can do to them. The FLDS Leadership is going to use every resource they have to MAKE SURE not a single mother from YFZ "turns traitor". The woman may not realize it, but they actually hold all the power in this game - but I am also certain that "keeping sweet" does not allow a woman to leverage this advantage....so most of the women would NEVER think that way - it would never occur to them.

Ahh, it will just take ONE WOMAN with a spine - one woman who has a spark of independence that hasn't been beaten and "controlled" out of her. Just one woman who doesn't "feel sweet". One woman from the YFZ group could literally take down the whole FLDS single handedly.

My opinion
That would take a miracle, but miracles do happen!

mysteriew
04-30-2008, 12:03 PM
The woman of the FLDS are NOT GOING TO LEAVE the FLDS while CPS has their kids. They have no money, no job and no HOME if they leave and the FLDS is certainly NOT going to get lawyers for a woman who has LEFT the FLDS. The FLDS is holding the Mothers Hostage with their kids - something they have done for 100 years. Sure, ANYONE can leave...you just don't get to take your kids with you when you do.

The FLDS Moms will stay with the FLDS - and frankly, I think that they will abandon their children before they will leave the only life they have ever known. they fear "Hell" more than they fear anything CPS or the LAW can do to them. The FLDS Leadership is going to use every resource they have to MAKE SURE not a single mother from YFZ "turns traitor". The woman may not realize it, but they actually hold all the power in this game - but I am also certain that "keeping sweet" does not allow a woman to leverage this advantage....so most of the women would NEVER think that way - it would never occur to them.

Ahh, it will just take ONE WOMAN with a spine - one woman who has a spark of independence that hasn't been beaten and "controlled" out of her. Just one woman who doesn't "feel sweet". One woman from the YFZ group could literally take down the whole FLDS single handedly.

My opinion

I agree about the one woman. One woman leaving and staying away right now would be a huge example for the other women. And would also be a huge morale booster for the other women. They would shun her, but I think that secretly they would be cheering her on and looking up at her.

jubie
04-30-2008, 01:08 PM
I agree about the one woman. One woman leaving and staying away right now would be a huge example for the other women. And would also be a huge morale booster for the other women. They would shun her, but I think that secretly they would be cheering her on and looking up at her.

I love the passion both you and FC post about the FLDS but on this note I sadly have to disagree because we've already seen women leave and try their best to get other women to leave and see how victimized they are but still almost all stay.:mad:


J.

yolorado
04-30-2008, 01:19 PM
I also found there was a movie made about the FLDS and the practice of underage girls. I never heard about this film. Does anyone remember it?

A 1981 made-for-TV film Child Bride of Short Creek starring Helen Hunt, Dee Wallace and Diane Lane exposed the tyranny and exploitation to wide notice, an uproar that just as quickly faded.

That was a good movie. Diane Lane was very young, and did quite a good job.

(Oh, and thanks to all for the 'welcome' comments in the older thread.)

yolorado
04-30-2008, 01:56 PM
The girls must become invisible when they get pregnant, since none of those women interviewed by Larry King had seen or known of young, pregnant or married teens.
Susan

That's probably because they are not seen as 'teens.' They're 'adults.' After all, they're married 'women.' It's all in the definition of words. There's obviously a cultural difference which extends to the dictionary, among other societal differences. Apparently, if stories of escapees, or in some cases testimony in open court, hold any credence, 'caring' FLDS mothers also don't see, or care about, the tears their daughters cry on the way to or at their weddings, or can't or won't hear the objections and pleadings of their daughters when they beg not to be forced to marry or object to being raped afterwards.

FlowerChild
04-30-2008, 02:17 PM
I love the passion both you and FC post about the FLDS but on this note I sadly have to disagree because we've already seen women leave and try their best to get other women to leave and see how victimized they are but still almost all stay.:mad:
J.

The devil you know is always preferable to the devil you don't know.

100 years of being "bred" for obedience and compliance will create a group that never questions and always accepts the status quo. The women who don't "fit" leave and the ones that do fit stay and have 10 children. The FLDS gets rid of ANYONE who doesn't subjugate easily - members who "think" or "question" or "defy" are quickly shoved out. I am sure that personality wise the majority are very much followers and the "training" basically enhances this. Plus, I get the idea that IQ-Wise these folks are GENERALLY very "average" or low average - education beyond 8th grade is rare and a thirst for knowledge is PUNISHED, not encouraged. They don't even READ (there are only 10 books total approved to read), they watch no TV, no news, no movies, no DVD's - they hear no music, read no newspapers, magazines or books, they don't "create", they don't have art, nor are they exposed to any. The girls learn to garden, cook, sew, clean and care for children, the boys learn to farm and do construction. Their life as a long trail of obedience and following and working at menial, repetitive tasks. And the LEADERSHIP wants/demands it that way - they don't want followers who question them - and so they "remove" those who dissent or are smarter than the average.

I look at it and see a "Breeding Operation" - maybe a dairy farm, where girls are desired and boys are unwanted...(you only need one or two BULLS, after all). You breed selectively for the sweetest, most compliant, cooperative "high-producing" females. Soon you keep ONLY the cows that work best for your operation and you keep breeding back to the same lines to select for those same qualities. You get the cows pregnant very young and from then on you keep "milking" them until they can't produce any more. And the BOYS? Well they are used to increase your "cash flow" because they get sold out for "veal".

It just takes ONE WOMAN (or girl) from the YFZ Ranch to break the FLDS and perhaps there is still one there with the "right stuff". Even when you think you have bred very carefully for the perfect offspring, a mutation or a throw-back slips in and ruins everything. Somewhere in the FLDS history there is a smart pioneer woman with a constitution of steel and drive to push the envelope and forge new territory. A woman NOT accepting of the status quo OR the control of a man. I PRAY that that legacy lives strong in a woman from the YFZ and that she gets a revelation - not like the abominations Warren Jeffs is always blabbing about - but a REAL ONE - from GOD!

My Opinion

RainbowsAndGumdrops
04-30-2008, 03:13 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat


"The report also said mothers at first refused to let the children undergo basic health screenings and that "many" teen girls declined to take pregnancy tests."

I'm not sure if the girls refused pregancy tests at first, or still refuse pregnancy tests. There could still be more pregnancies to be reported. If the girls had full exams, I am sure whether they are pregnant was already determined. Still, I am putting this out there as a possibility that they may not be sure whether there are more pregnancies.

jubie
04-30-2008, 03:34 PM
The devil you know is always preferable to the devil you don't know.

100 years of being "bred" for obedience and compliance will create a group that never questions and always accepts the status quo. The women who don't "fit" leave and the ones that do fit stay and have 10 children. The FLDS gets rid of ANYONE who doesn't subjugate easily - members who "think" or "question" or "defy" are quickly shoved out. I am sure that personality wise the majority are very much followers and the "training" basically enhances this. Plus, I get the idea that IQ-Wise these folks are GENERALLY very "average" or low average - education beyond 8th grade is rare and a thirst for knowledge is PUNISHED, not encouraged. They don't even READ (there are only 10 books total approved to read), they watch no TV, no news, no movies, no DVD's - they hear no music, read no newspapers, magazines or books, they don't "create", they don't have art, nor are they exposed to any. The girls learn to garden, cook, sew, clean and care for children, the boys learn to farm and do construction. Their life as a long trail of obedience and following and working at menial, repetitive tasks. And the LEADERSHIP wants/demands it that way - they don't want followers who question them - and so they "remove" those who dissent or are smarter than the average.

I look at it and see a "Breeding Operation" - maybe a dairy farm, where girls are desired and boys are unwanted...(you only need one or two BULLS, after all). You breed selectively for the sweetest, most compliant, cooperative "high-producing" females. Soon you keep ONLY the cows that work best for your operation and you keep breeding back to the same lines to select for those same qualities. You get the cows pregnant very young and from then on you keep "milking" them until they can't produce any more. And the BOYS? Well they are used to increase your "cash flow" because they get sold out for "veal".

It just takes ONE WOMAN (or girl) from the YFZ Ranch to break the FLDS and perhaps there is still one there with the "right stuff". Even when you think you have bred very carefully for the perfect offspring, a mutation or a throw-back slips in and ruins everything. Somewhere in the FLDS history there is a smart pioneer woman with a constitution of steel and drive to push the envelope and forge new territory. A woman NOT accepting of the status quo OR the control of a man. I PRAY that that legacy lives strong in a woman from the YFZ and that she gets a revelation - not like the abominations Warren Jeffs is always blabbing about - but a REAL ONE - from GOD!

My Opinion

You know what? I'd like so much for that to happen, I just don't hold out much hope because of the history of women leaving and boys being disposed of. So sad. I wish we would hear some clear information of at least a few women choosing to leave FOR GOOD. I think the longer some of these young mothers are in foster care and are allowed to see an alternative to their lives at the YFZ ranch the better chance they have.

Jubie

FlowerChild
04-30-2008, 03:46 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat


"The report also said mothers at first refused to let the children undergo basic health screenings and that "many" teen girls declined to take pregnancy tests."

I'm not sure if the girls refused pregancy tests at first, or still refuse pregnancy tests. There could still be more pregnancies to be reported. If the girls had full exams, I am sure whether they are pregnant was already determined. Still, I am putting this out there as a possibility that they may not be sure whether there are more pregnancies.
Well you can assume that ALL the teen girls who refused a pregnancy test have AT LEAST had sex - otherwise why would a pregnancy test matter? Not like it's a painful test and it isn't invasive.

Since we know that the FLDS keeps very strict fertility/cycle charts on each "married woman/girl" and that sex when they are fertile is a REQUIREMENT (and all sex stops the minute they aren't ovulating or become pregnant) I would say that means that if there haven't been pregnancy tests done on EVERY GIRL who has reached puberty, they'd better get with it - because I am assuming that a LOT of the girls are pregnant already (and KNOW they are) or could be pregnant. There is no need to refuse the tests otherwise. And I wouldn't limit it to those 14+ either - if the child is having her period (even if she is 11) she is old enough to be married and having babies in the FLDS World.

From what others have told us about the "special" girls at the YFZ Ranch (they are the "best" ones from ALL of FLDS) as SOON as the girl is having a period, she is married off ASAP....no matter what her age. These are the PRIZE SPECIMENS of FLDS Woman-hood - chosen from ALL the girls in the FLDS for their "sweetness" and family history and their compliant and obedient natures. The Prophet and Apostles chose the girls by hand for the YFZ Ranch - and to be married to the most faithful and highly regarded men of the "Priesthood" (including themselves, of course). These girls are the PRIZE STOCK at the show and you naturally want to get them bred and producing MORE future winners ASAP.

One visibly pregnant girl interviewed said she was 18 and had 2 children...her STEPDAUGHTER (age 8) ratted her out and said she was actually 16 and had 4 children (currently preggers with #5). That means even if she is almost 17 and 6 mos pregnant TODAY she was pregnant with her 1st child AT LEAST 46-48 months ago - when she was no older than 12...and she could have easily been only 11.

I hope CPS now realizes that just because the girls LOOK like little girls, if they are menstruating, they may be pregnant - even at age 11. :furious: Babies with babies - with the cooperation of every adult in their lives.

My Opinion

Peculiar Petunia
04-30-2008, 04:21 PM
I udderly agree with you, FlowerChild. Bred just like a herd of Guernseys, for docility and productivity.

I'd really like to get hold of some of their records, and find out:

How old the women are at death.
What happens to post-menopausal women, if any make it to that age.
How many women die in childbirth, or from complications.
The true incidence of birth defects.However, were the people sent to Texas selected to lack fumarase deficiency in their lineage, as well as being docile?

LinasK
04-30-2008, 05:21 PM
I love the passion both you and FC post about the FLDS but on this note I sadly have to disagree because we've already seen women leave and try their best to get other women to leave and see how victimized they are but still almost all stay.:mad:


J.

That was just what I was thinking- Flora and Carolyn Jessop are just two examples who made it out, and they are in the minority. The other FLDS women are too fearful or brainwashed to willingly leave!

Floh
04-30-2008, 05:33 PM
That was just what I was thinking- Flora and Carolyn Jessop are just two examples who made it out, and they are in the minority. The other FLDS women are too fearful or brainwashed to willingly leave!

I wonder what makes Flora and Carolyn Jessop different? it would be fascinating to know why they had the determination to run and succeed in their running.

Leila
04-30-2008, 05:43 PM
The article says that the 40 women who went to the shelter are now back in the compound. I wish the state would discuss that. I am not sure if it is true, or just a FLDS claim. If they left, I hope the state investigates and tries to find out if they had received any threats or just why they did leave.

Mysteriew..................I question that statement too, since it came from a FLDS attorney, and hasn't been confirmed by anyone representing the state.

The FLDS has a vested interest in keeping up appearances that all their members are devoted followers. If even one woman went to a battered womens shelter, and remains there as of now, it's bad publicity for the FLDS.

Floh
04-30-2008, 05:43 PM
One of Flora's poems





Utah's Justice

Living out at short creek
Fearing every day
Knowing that the laws are there
Protecting adults sick ways

Knowing that he's watching me
And waiting for a day
To pick up where he left off
The filthy games he plays

The threats and lies he uses
Are spoken by forked tongue
By every last adult in town
There is no truth, not one

My cries for help were frowned on
They said 'twas I who'd sinned
And when I was to take the stand
They said my mom'd be skinned

So now I wont be talking
Cause they locked me in this room
And now I know what he meant by,
Talking will spell your doom

Now I'm the one who's punished
And he walks around scott free
All because he's a chosen son
And satan's inside me

So now you know what happens
When a child turns to the law
and cries aloud for justice
in the great state of Utah


by: Flora Jessop August 2002

Dedicated to the 5 daughters of Dan Barlow Jr. who were molested by him, their father, then punished for being brave and having the courage to tell. This event happened in Arizona, but when it comes to crimes against these children it matters not which state they are in as they will receive no help from Utah or Arizona. Barlow, who is the son of Colorado City's Mayor, was tried and convicted in Kingman Arizona and received a sentence of 13 days and probation for his crimes.

http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/poetry/poetry.htm

Two more at the above link.

And she's d*mned well talking NOW! yay, Flora!

Leila
04-30-2008, 05:56 PM
The woman of the FLDS are NOT GOING TO LEAVE the FLDS while CPS has their kids. They have no money, no job and no HOME if they leave and the FLDS is certainly NOT going to get lawyers for a woman who has LEFT the FLDS. The FLDS is holding the Mothers Hostage with their kids - something they have done for 100 years. Sure, ANYONE can leave...you just don't get to take your kids with you when you do.

The FLDS Moms will stay with the FLDS - and frankly, I think that they will abandon their children before they will leave the only life they have ever known. they fear "Hell" more than they fear anything CPS or the LAW can do to them. The FLDS Leadership is going to use every resource they have to MAKE SURE not a single mother from YFZ "turns traitor". The woman may not realize it, but they actually hold all the power in this game - but I am also certain that "keeping sweet" does not allow a woman to leverage this advantage....so most of the women would NEVER think that way - it would never occur to them.

Ahh, it will just take ONE WOMAN with a spine - one woman who has a spark of independence that hasn't been beaten and "controlled" out of her. Just one woman who doesn't "feel sweet". One woman from the YFZ group could literally take down the whole FLDS single handedly.

My opinion

I think it's possible for a woman to leave the FLDS at this time and have a better chance of getting custody of their child/children.

Most battered womens shelters are more than just temporary shelters for women leaving an abusive relationship. In cases of spousal abuse, the woman is often a stay-at-home mother, who's trapped in a marriage with a controlling husband who is physically, mentally, and emotionally abusive. They fear for their lives, have no independent income to support themselves, and no place to go.

A battered womens shelter, helps these women get on their feet with a job, housing, and legal representation. Here locally, we have attorneys who donate their time one evening a week at the free legal clinic, and there's other community resources to help the women.

In the case of the FLDS, let's hope that at least one woman (I would hope for more than one) has the courage to leave. With help from community resources, she would be in a better position to regain custody of her child or children.

Trino
04-30-2008, 06:53 PM
If these women have allowed their children to be physically abused and "married" to older men and have allowed their boys to be booted from the compound, IMO they will abandon their children to foster homes before they give up this religion, AKA a cult. Who's to say they aren't in the process of making more babies right now.

Pepper
04-30-2008, 06:56 PM
If these women have allowed their children to be physically abused and "married" to older men and have allowed their boys to be booted from the compound, IMO they will abandon their children to foster homes before they give up this religion, AKA a cult. Who's to say they aren't in the process of making more babies right now. And the more children they have the more they will think of them as a commodity that can be replaced. Look at how Merrill Jessop viewed his "imperfect" son when there were 26 other children.

FlowerChild
04-30-2008, 07:10 PM
Most of us "regular women" cannot begin to understand the mindset of the FLDS woman - let me try and give a analogy

We ALL can agree that shooting oneself in the head with a large caliber pistol or drinking pure cyanide is 99.99% of the time going to leave you dead. We "know" this because we were TAUGHT this thru life - from the age of reasoning - our experiences and our education and what we saw and heard have convinced us that these are "deadly" things to do. We were "trained" into fearing death by our parents - who said "don't run with scissors" and "look both ways before crossing the street" and "don't touch the stove" and then later, we leaned about THINGS THAT MAKE YOU DEAD and why dead is a "bad thing" we wouldn't want to experience before our time. So now, as adults. there is NO WAY any of us is going to drink cyanide or shoot ourselves in the head unless we want to DIE. We didn't have to experience death ourselves to know it could happen - and certain behaviors made death an almost certain outcome.

Well what would we think if we moved to ABC Country - a place filled with beautiful, perfect people - and everyone lived to the ripe old age of 200 and never got sick a single day and had no worries. ABC Country looked like heaven on earth - a place where we knew no-one before we got there but where everyone looked the same as us and acted a lot like us EXCEPT they told us that the key to their perfect long life was they drank cyanide every day like a tonic. And that WE should also be drinking it - and chasing it with a good pistol shot to the head.

I can assure you that NONE OF US would start drinking cyanide with our morning OJ/Coffee or popping off a bullets to the head at happy hour. ...even if we didn't live to be 200 or got a head cold every week - we still wouldn't BELIEVE that we could drink cyanide or shoot ourselves in the head and LIVE. The people of ABC could tell us and show us and talk to us - but we STILL WOULDN'T TAKE THE CHANCE THAT THEY WERE WRONG - or liars. Because we had spent a lifetime believing that cyanide and gunshots to the head are DEADLY - even if we'd never personally experienced EITHER.

The people in the FLDS are in a strange country where everything looks the same as their country, but isn't the same - at least to THEM. They DO NOT believe anything we tell them because they BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY FROM US . Their experiences and life and learning are very different from ours. They can't go back and get different life experiences and different childhoods or different learning - they are a product of THEIR ENVIRONMENT - JUST LIKE WE ARE.

It doesn't seem logical or right FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE - but it is logical and "right" from THEIRS. They aren't different from us in any significant way - but their LIVES are like night to our DAY.

And THAT is why the FLDS women aren't going to shelters, trying to escape or acting the way WE WOULD.They believe we are the crazy ones telling them they should be drinking cyanide and shooting themselves in the head. And based on their experiences and lives, they aren't wrong in trusting the teachings that have proven TRUE FOR THEM. No sane person would act any differently than they ARE RIGHT NOW given the same environment and upbringing. We are SURE we are right...and they are equally sure THEY ARE.

My Opinion

biggirl
04-30-2008, 07:36 PM
Flower Child (I love your name), you always hit the nail on the head. I love to read your posts and give a big YEAH!:blowkiss:

Does anyone know what happened to the "40" women who supposedly went to undisclosed shelters instead of back to the FDLS?? It is my sincere deepest hope that they stay in shelters and learn all about abuse and talk.

I pray this is the beginning of the end for these peoples way of life.

mysteriew
04-30-2008, 08:22 PM
Yes, but I really do believe it just takes one. Right now, if a woman escapes she is there one day and gone the next. They can be told that she became a prostitute or hooked on drugs and that she is now too contaminated to come back. No one will ever tell them any different.

But if one woman manages to get out and stay out. Gets community support, a job and some independence and manages to stay out, they women would see her going to and from child visits. They could see she is ok. They might not talk to her, but they will watch her. And if they see she is ok, that she laughs and loves her kids. They will have to see a woman leaving and being successful. I think that could cause a change in how they look at leaving- at least in some of the women. Some of the women, yes, no matter what they see and hear, they will remain the same.

Leila
04-30-2008, 09:42 PM
We've got a small number of miracles - Carolyn Jessop, Flora Jessop, Kathy Jo Nickolson, Laur Chapman, Debbie Palmer, Carolyn Cook, Jenny Larson, and Annette Jessop. These are some of the women whose stories about escaping the FLDS have been chronicled at the child brides website.

Despite their upbringing, they somehow knew that there was a better life outside the FLDS, and made their escape.

We have to hope that some of the women still in the FLDS will have that same inspiration.

LinasK
04-30-2008, 10:43 PM
We've got a small number of miracles - Carolyn Jessop, Flora Jessop, Kathy Jo Nickolson, Laur Chapman, Debbie Palmer, Carolyn Cook, Jenny Larson, and Annette Jessop. These are some of the women whose stories about escaping the FLDS have been chronicled at the child brides website.

Despite their upbringing, they somehow knew that there was a better life outside the FLDS, and made their escape.

We have to hope that some of the women still in the FLDS will have that same inspiration.

There are a few more in the video with Heaven in the title. Names are escaping me at the moment...

Doris Hansen
another Hanson (Christine?)
Mary Mackert
Raquel Sturm
Susan Ray Schmidt

Add Elaine Jeffs, Laurie Allen, Elissa Wall,Ruth Stubbs, and the two Fawn's to the list of those women who have escaped.