FLDS - The Children

[Leila]

The following is a very interesting article on the guidelines given to foster care workers, with a few things that I haven't seen included in other articles.

Polygamist sect children present a cultural challenge for foster-care facilities

The two guides were crafted this week to help foster care workers at 16 different residential facilities, including those in the Houston area, who will interact with children from the reclusive breakaway Mormon sect.


"Help them with self-esteem, guilty feelings, shame, confusion about mainstream culture, and learning basic decision making skills," stated the "Model for Care For Children From the Yearning For Zion Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Sect," released to the Houston Chronicle by CPS.


The second guide, the "Cultural Awareness Guide for Children From Eldorado," offered child care staffers a laundry list of the children's dietary and clothing needs.


Further in the article it addresses the women who were separated from their children.


An FLDS Web site set up to accept donations for the legal custody battle said that 40 mothers who decided to go to battered women's shelters in San Antonio and San Angelo did so because CPS workers told them they would have a better chance of seeing the children.


Azar (CPS spokesperson) called those allegations "blatantly untrue" and said CPS will work to ensure that all mothers can visit their children in foster care.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5731553.html

(http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5731553.html)

One of the things I noted was that the guide covered discipline, and cautioned foster care workers to be aware of potentially harsh practices the children may have experienced.

In regards to the women who returned to the YFZ ranch or went to a battered women's shelter, it's evident that the FLDS doesn't want to acknowledge that some of the women may be seeking to leave the FLDS. Only 7 women returned to the ranch, while 40 went to a shelter.



(http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5731553.html)

[FlowerChild]

The following is a very interesting article on the guidelines given to foster care workers, with a few things that I haven't seen included in other articles.
Polygamist sect children present a cultural challenge for foster-care facilities
The two guides were crafted this week to help foster care workers at 16 different residential facilities, including those in the Houston area, who will interact with children from the reclusive breakaway Mormon sect.
"Help them with self-esteem, guilty feelings, shame, confusion about mainstream culture, and learning basic decision making skills," stated the "Model for Care For Children From the Yearning For Zion Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints Sect," released to the Houston Chronicle by CPS.
The second guide, the "Cultural Awareness Guide for Children From Eldorado," offered child care staffers a laundry list of the children's dietary and clothing needs.
Further in the article it addresses the women who were separated from their children.
An FLDS Web site set up to accept donations for the legal custody battle said that 40 mothers who decided to go to battered women's shelters in San Antonio and San Angelo did so because CPS workers told them they would have a better chance of seeing the children.
Azar (CPS spokesperson) called those allegations "blatantly untrue" and said CPS will work to ensure that all mothers can visit their children in foster care. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5731553.html (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5731553.html)
(http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5731553.html)One of the things I noted was that the guide covered discipline, and cautioned foster care workers to be aware of potentially harsh practices the children may have experienced.

In regards to the women who returned to the YFZ ranch or went to a battered women's shelter, it's evident that the FLDS doesn't want to acknowledge that some of the women may be seeking to leave the FLDS. Only 7 women returned to the ranch, while 40 went to a shelter.

Except that LATER when the FLDS got all lawyered up, those 40 women went right back to the ranch and/or their husbands. Some of the women NOT at the ranch are elsewhere in Texas WITH the FLDS "leaders". They did NOT leave and IMO, will NOT leave - the FLDS has told them if they leave, they will NOT get legal help to get the children back and since they have no jobs and no income, they will LOSE the kids to Daddy or another FLDS relative picked by the FLDS. They have trapped those women neatly and it will take WAY WAY more than the usual kinds of assistance to get those mothers out of the FLDS - if it's even possible.

Of course the mothers will LIE and say and do whatever CPS says they need to do get custody of their kids, but unless CPS does very strict and frequent follow-up, those kids will go right back into the FLDS with their mothers. These mothers DON'T WANT TO ESCAPE THE FLDS - they believe in it and they don't know any other life. They'd be useless without their husband and leaders and can't begin to deal with the real world and MOST IMPORTANT they have no desire to change or get away. It will take YEARS of intense deprogramming to get even a FEW of these mothers to even THINK about leaving the FLDS....I think they will give up their kids 1st in most cases - they are THAT BRAINWASHED!

WE cannot understand, but to these women they way they live is the ONLY RIGHT WAY and they have been taught this since BIRTH. They think WE are the wrong ones. You don't change a lifestyle and a belief that strong by taking their children - in fact, you may only make them MORE determined to get back to "normal" - even if that means they sacrifice their children. A human being will ALWAYS reach for the familiar and the KNOWN when stressed and these women are no different - that drive to get something back to "normal" while the chaos goes on means they will fight to get their own lives back, even at the expense of their children.

We cannot rescue those who do not WANT to be saved. Trying only means we risk allowing them to drag us down with them. WE MIGHT be able to save the children and we should focus on them.

My Opinion

[FlowerChild]

Warning, this may make you sick....

Life in the FLDS is tightly controlled, and always has been. Anything that might facilitate contact with the outside world is forbidden. No television, radio, newspapers or magazines are allowed. Reading matter is restricted to the Bible, the Book of Mormon and a couple of other Mormon religious manuals and FLDS tracts. No movies are allowed, no secular music, and the internet is restricted to a chosen few.
Also banned is having a dog, swimming, celebrating worldly holidays, wearing short-sleeved shirts or blouses, women wearing pants or skirts above the ankle, talking with people outside the FLDS faith, being outside after dark, and any romantic contact between boys and girls; no flirting, no hanging out, no holding hands and no kissing.
The list of banned items and activities goes on and on, is subject to change at any time; interpretation is at the discretion of the Prophet and not subject to appeal. All members watch each other at all times, are expected to report any infraction, and punishment is meted out again at the Prophet’s whim.

Education for most members is highly restricted, and everything taught is through a religious filter. Prophet Jeffs ordered all FLDS to be homeschooled, following a church-approved curriculum with no history or biology, teaching that the moon landing was faked and the creationist version of science; schooling ends for most with the eighth grade.
While girls are expected to learn and practice only homemaking skills, boys begin working in construction or the fields at age 8 and by 14 are operating heavy equipment. All wages, if they are paid at all, go to the communal United Effort Plan that owns the whole town and all FLDS businesses. The boys get nothing for their labor but room and board. There have been multiple incidents of child laborers being seriously injured, but no state complaints have ever been filed.
All children are taught to fear outsiders, especially blacks who are portrayed as tools of Satan bearing the Mark of Cain, cursed by god and planning on torturing and killing any white children they can capture. Along with the usual Mormon doctrine of male domination, FLDS children are taught that if they leave the faith or are expelled they will forever lose their soul and dwell in eternal darkness.

The level of physical abuse is utterly appalling. Babies as soon as they begin to crawl are routinely brutalized by beatings and having their faces held under open taps or forced into sinks full of water until they are no longer able to struggle, and this is repeated at random intervals throughout early childhood with no warning and for no stated reason. It isn’t punishment, but domination; the process is called “Breaking” and is meant to instill unreasoning, unquestioning fear and obedience.
Women and children are routinely “reassigned” from one man to another, to intimidate and keep in line both the men and the women. Once placed with a new man, the children are required to view him as their real father and shun the father they have always known. Women who persist or repeat their defiance can have their children taken away and given to other women; the children are taught that their original mother is evil, and that the new woman is their real mother. This can happen again and again during a child’s life; no wonder that the children in Texas could not identify their true parents.
http://www.correntewire.com/flds_stealing_the_schools_money_changing_texas_law s

[Leila]

Except that LATER when the FLDS got all lawyered up, those 40 women went right back to the ranch and/or their husbands. Some of the women NOT at the ranch are elsewhere in Texas WITH the FLDS "leaders". They did NOT leave and IMO, will NOT leave - the FLDS has told them if they leave, they will NOT get legal help to get the children back and since they have no jobs and no income, they will LOSE the kids to Daddy or another FLDS relative picked by the FLDS. They have trapped those women neatly and it will take WAY WAY more than the usual kinds of assistance to get those mothers out of the FLDS - if it's even possible.

Of course the mothers will LIE and say and do whatever CPS says they need to do get custody of their kids, but unless CPS does very strict and frequent follow-up, those kids will go right back into the FLDS with their mothers. These mothers DON'T WANT TO ESCAPE THE FLDS - they believe in it and they don't know any other life. They'd be useless without their husband and leaders and can't begin to deal with the real world and MOST IMPORTANT they have no desire to change or get away. It will take YEARS of intense deprogramming to get even a FEW of these mothers to even THINK about leaving the FLDS....I think they will give up their kids 1st in most cases - they are THAT BRAINWASHED!

WE cannot understand, but to these women they way they live is the ONLY RIGHT WAY and they have been taught this since BIRTH. They think WE are the wrong ones. You don't change a lifestyle and a belief that strong by taking their children - in fact, you may only make them MORE determined to get back to "normal" - even if that means they sacrifice their children. A human being will ALWAYS reach for the familiar and the KNOWN when stressed and these women are no different - that drive to get something back to "normal" while the chaos goes on means they will fight to get their own lives back, even at the expense of their children.

We cannot rescue those who do not WANT to be saved. Trying only means we risk allowing them to drag us down with them. WE MIGHT be able to save the children and we should focus on them.

My Opinion

The indoctrination is not only from birth, but is multi-generational. But, I keep hoping, and perhaps it's wishful hoping, that at least a few will emerge from this and be counted among those who've escaped.

I'm still hopeful that the underage teenagers, who are either now pregnant or have already given birth, will make the decision to leave. As the victims, CPS will not allow them to be returned to the FLDS, but when they turn 18, there's nothing to prevent their return if that's their decision. With a 15 or 16 year-old, two or three years outside the cult may provide them with options.

[Trino]

The indoctrination is not only from birth, but is multi-generational. But, I keep hoping, and perhaps it's wishful hoping, that at least a few will emerge from this and be counted among those who've escaped.

I'm still hopeful that the underage teenagers, who are either now pregnant or have already given birth, will make the decision to leave. As the victims, CPS will not allow them to be returned to the FLDS, but when they turn 18, there's nothing to prevent their return if that's their decision. With a 15 or 16 year-old, two or three years outside the cult may provide them with options.

All this is why I feel the children should see the outside world now. Sheltering them from reality will not enable them, especially those near 18, to make an intelligent decision about returning to a life they've always known or living a life in the real world.

I think the facilities are great for the children, but it's interesting that there is a religious book and a wall poster of Jesus at Kidz Harbor, Liverpool. I wonder how this plays with the sect.

http://www.chron.com/channel/houstonbelief/photogallery/NEW_HOMES_FOR_POLYGAMIST_SECTS_KIDS.html

[HappyChic727]

I watched a little of Nancy Grace last night. I'm falling away from that show because all she does is repeat herself and the same pictures and videos are shown over and over and over. I am still a fan of hers. I guess she doesn't have much to report on so she has to fill the hour.

Anyway, this whole situation makes me sick. I hope and pray that anyone who has been held hostage to this lifestyle can overcome it and live a normal life.

[Linda7NJ]

What the deal with not owning dogs?:waitasec:

[Floh]

What the deal with not owning dogs?:waitasec:

Probably because they give fun and pleasure to their owners and cause their owners to laugh and smile. :(

now about FLDS members not being allowed to swim: no chance of them being able to save their own lives should they fall into deep water, huh? :(

accidentally or no . . .

[mollymalone]

http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2008/04/sect-married-girls-at-puberty.php

When Carolyn J. made her escape at one point she met with Utah's attorney general, Mark Shurtleff
and told him of the abuse and extremism that had taken hold of FLDS, because of Warren Jeffs. She described how women were arbitarily taken from husbands and given to other men.

How Warren had terrorized young children by having animals tortured to death in front of them. She told them about the day all the dogs were destroyed and how Warren taught that a society
that treated animals humanely was corrupt and had turned away from God.

[mollymalone]

IMO Warren is a psychopath who seized control and had his own personal playground for several years in which he practiced his cruelty to both humans and animals. There is no punishment great enough in my view that could be meted out to this ...thing that would bring justice to those he abused.

[mysteriew]

All this is why I feel the children should see the outside world now. Sheltering them from reality will not enable them, especially those near 18, to make an intelligent decision about returning to a life they've always known or living a life in the real world.

I think the facilities are great for the children, but it's interesting that there is a religious book and a wall poster of Jesus at Kidz Harbor, Liverpool. I wonder how this plays with the sect.

http://www.chron.com/channel/houstonbelief/photogallery/NEW_HOMES_FOR_POLYGAMIST_SECTS_KIDS.html

At this point CPS only has temporary custody of the children. There is still the possibility of sending them back dependent on what the investigation reveals about abuse and of course on the court's decision. To expose them to more right now, could make it more difficult on them if they should be returned. So until things are more permanent, then it is probably best for the kids if exposure is limited.

Now if the court allows them to be taken for longer term, I think that they will receive more exposure. From what I have read, CPS can only hold them in the shelters for 90 days- unless the judge extends that. If they end up in foster homes, then there will be more exposure. They will be attending school, they will have exposure to other foster kids, there will be TV's, sports and a whole lot of other things.

[Leila]

All this is why I feel the children should see the outside world now. Sheltering them from reality will not enable them, especially those near 18, to make an intelligent decision about returning to a life they've always known or living a life in the real world.

I think the facilities are great for the children, but it's interesting that there is a religious book and a wall poster of Jesus at Kidz Harbor, Liverpool. I wonder how this plays with the sect.

http://www.chron.com/channel/houstonbelief/photogallery/NEW_HOMES_FOR_POLYGAMIST_SECTS_KIDS.html

Kidz Harbor appears to be the perfect setting to place these children. I'm hopeful the court decisions will allow the children to remain apart from the FLDS and gradually be introduced to the outside world.

One thing that wasn't addressed that I wonder about is how the foster care workers and social workers will answer children's questions. Certainly the older children, the pre-teen and teens will have questions about what is happening to them, why they were taken from their homes.

I hope that with the teens that are pregnant or have already given birth, there will be a more intensive learning about the real world. These teens don't have parents to claim them, as they're considered a "wife" to one of the FLDS men.

[mysteriew]

Q: State District Judge Barbara Walther ruled on April 18 that the children remain in CPS custody. What is the next legal step for the children?

A: CPS must adhere to a strict set of court deadlines. An initial hearing is held first, within 24 hours after the child is taken from the home. At that hearing and every subsequent one, CPS workers must state why the child was taken and whether conditions exist that would prevent the child from returning home. A 14-day hearing is held to determine if the child should remain in state custody. Walther ruled that the FLDS children should remain until the 60-day status hearings, which will begin by June 5.

Q: And after the status hearing?

A: CPS meets with the judge at the six-month, 10-month and year marks after a child is taken into custody. At the final hearing, parents have to show how they've made their home safe so the children can be returned. If they can't prove that, their parental rights are terminated and the child is put up for adoption.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5737874.html

[txsvicki]

I hope these kids realize what the real God and real people are like instead of living with demons. Hopefully, after getting to watch some tv, play, not be raped and beaten, dress and fix their hair like real people do they won't ever want to live around a bunch of freaks again. They'll even have some black men and women caring for them I'm sure. They'll see that they care more about them than their so called families and false prophet.

[Leila]

Q: State District Judge Barbara Walther ruled on April 18 that the children remain in CPS custody. What is the next legal step for the children?

A: CPS must adhere to a strict set of court deadlines. An initial hearing is held first, within 24 hours after the child is taken from the home. At that hearing and every subsequent one, CPS workers must state why the child was taken and whether conditions exist that would prevent the child from returning home. A 14-day hearing is held to determine if the child should remain in state custody. Walther ruled that the FLDS children should remain until the 60-day status hearings, which will begin by June 5.

Q: And after the status hearing?

A: CPS meets with the judge at the six-month, 10-month and year marks after a child is taken into custody. At the final hearing, parents have to show how they've made their home safe so the children can be returned. If they can't prove that, their parental rights are terminated and the child is put up for adoption.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5737874.html

Thanks Mysteriew! With this protocol, I can't see many, if any, of the children returning to the FLDS parents. I think it will be dependent on what the state presents in court as evidence of abuse when the status hearings begin on June 5th. Certainly, none of the underage girls that are pregnant or have already given birth will be allowed to return to the YFZ ranch. Their status at the YFZ ranch was a wife, not a child.

In addition to the civil proceedings, there's the likelihood of criminal charges.

[mysteriew]

Thanks Mysteriew! With this protocol, I can't see many, if any, of the children returning to the FLDS parents. I think it will be dependent on what the state presents in court as evidence of abuse when the status hearings begin on June 5th. Certainly, none of the underage girls that are pregnant or have already given birth will be allowed to return to the YFZ ranch. Their status at the YFZ ranch was a wife, not a child.

In addition to the civil proceedings, there's the likelihood of criminal charges.

According to the article, possible criminal charges is where the issue of probable cause comes up. But somehow I have faith that it will be ruled that seeing evidence of a criminal act gives the probable cause.

I do have a question though. If anyone is given criminal charges, taken to trial and convicted, and imprisoned.... will they be forced to wear prison wear or will that be considered religious persecution, lol?

[galvino]

FYI- NPR's Talk of the Nation devoted an hour to this yesterday- including an update on the kids by one of the foster homes. I don't know how to provide links, but I believe they archive the radio programs!

[Peculiar Petunia]

Link for Talk of the Nation:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90006302

[Linda7NJ]

AUSTIN - The chief of protective services in Texas is telling legislators that investigators have uncovered a history of physical injuries, including broken bones, in children taken from a polygamst sect.
Commissioner Carey Cockerell, who oversees the state agency now caring for the children, said medical examinations have revealed numerous physical injuries, including broken bones in "very young children."
Cockerell also told a state legislative committee that mothers who stayed with their children in state custody launched a coordinated effort to stymie investigators, coaching their children to not answer questions.
State authorities raided a ranch owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on April 3. More than 450 children are in state foster facilities from the raid.

ap news wire

[SweetPea2]

Texas officials looking at possible abuse among FLDS boys



AUSTIN, Texas - Texas officials have told legislators they're looking at the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from the polygamist sect's ranch.

In a written update provided to lawmakers Wednesday, the state Child Protective Services division says it is looking into possible sexual abuse of boys based on interviews and journal entries.
The agency provided no other details.
Earlier, Commissioner Carey Cockerell — in charge of the umbrella Department of Family and Protective Services — told lawmakers 41 children have evidence of broken bones.
The disclosures are the first suggestions that anyone other than teen girls may have been physically or sexually abused. The state has custody of 464 children taking from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in the west Texas prairie town of Eldorado, including a baby born to a teen mother Tuesday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

[SweetPea2]

Shortened for space:
Warning, this may make you sick....

no wonder that the children in Texas could not identify their true parents.
http://www.correntewire.com/flds_stealing_the_schools_money_changing_texas_law s


It made me :furious::furious::furious::furious: These people are truly SICK! They are doing far more damage to their children than any "outsider" could do :furious::furious::furious::furious:

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

I just read online the comments noted above that 41 kids may currently or previously had broken bones. My initial reaction was thank goodness we removed the kids. Then it occurred to me that that is 10% of the kids. I think that if we go to the general public, the percentage of kids that have ever broken a bone would be higher. I actually agree with the FLDS that this fact is being mentioned in a political fashion against the FLDS. If the broken bones are from accidents and not abuse AND if they were treated propperly and followed up on, then that statistic itself doesn't worry me. That number alone doesn't provide enough information to decide one way or the other whether there was abuse going on - in the form of broken bones that is.

My opinion.

[Floh]

Texas officials looking at possible abuse among FLDS boys



AUSTIN, Texas - Texas officials have told legislators they're looking at the possible sexual abuse of some young boys taken from the polygamist sect's ranch.

In a written update provided to lawmakers Wednesday, the state Child Protective Services division says it is looking into possible sexual abuse of boys based on interviews and journal entries.
The agency provided no other details.
Earlier, Commissioner Carey Cockerell — in charge of the umbrella Department of Family and Protective Services — told lawmakers 41 children have evidence of broken bones.
The disclosures are the first suggestions that anyone other than teen girls may have been physically or sexually abused. The state has custody of 464 children taking from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in the west Texas prairie town of Eldorado, including a baby born to a teen mother Tuesday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Journal entries? whose journal entries, i'm pondering?:confused:

if these boys have been sexually abused and someone recorded the abuse in a journal, i don't know what to think as to why! :furious:

and all the girls too . . . :furious:

the broken bones . . . what a horrible life for children raised in this culture!

[Pepper]

I just read online the comments noted above that 41 kids may currently or previously had broken bones. My initial reaction was thank goodness we removed the kids. Then it occurred to me that that is 10% of the kids. I think that if we go to the general public, the percentage of kids that have ever broken a bone would be higher. I actually agree with the FLDS that this fact is being mentioned in a political fashion against the FLDS. If the broken bones are from accidents and not abuse AND if they were treated propperly and followed up on, then that statistic itself doesn't worry me. That number alone doesn't provide enough information to decide one way or the other whether there was abuse going on - in the form of broken bones that is.

My opinion.

Are these 41 kids girls or boys?

[Floh]

I just read online the comments noted above that 41 kids may currently or previously had broken bones. My initial reaction was thank goodness we removed the kids. Then it occurred to me that that is 10% of the kids. I think that if we go to the general public, the percentage of kids that have ever broken a bone would be higher. I actually agree with the FLDS that this fact is being mentioned in a political fashion against the FLDS. If the broken bones are from accidents and not abuse AND if they were treated propperly and followed up on, then that statistic itself doesn't worry me. That number alone doesn't provide enough information to decide one way or the other whether there was abuse going on - in the form of broken bones that is.

My opinion.

It crossed my mind about the broken bones and children having accidents — can experts tell if bones have been broken from abuse or accident?

[FlowerChild]

UNLESS they x-rayed all 463 kids, they are saying that 41 kids have CURRENT OUTWARD EVIDENCE of broken bones. That would NOT INCLUDE broken bones that did not present externally or weren't recent. Every child there could have had a prior broken bone and only the 41 who had SEVERE injuries or broke a bone in the last 8 weeks would show evidence in a cursory exam.

I would wager that there are MORE CHILDREN with healed injuries - and if CPS can prove there is a systematic problem with small children having broken bones currently, perhaps they will be able to do some tests on ALL the children to see if there are more with healed injuries or repetitive injuries from physical abuse. You must show cause to examine all the children - and that is what they are doing. Yes, 41 kids with broken bones is not alarming if it's OVERALL, but I'm betting its more like 41 kids who show evidence of having broken bones in the last 8 weeks - or bones broken that could not have come from an expected childhood accident. And remember, these kids don't have swings, slides, monkey bars, skateboards, bicycles or playgrounds...exactly what were they doing that they broke a bone?

I think this information may just be the TIP of the iceburg - perhaps "training" isn't just verbal at the FLDS??

Oh and now possible sexual abuse of the BOYS? Is that part of the "training" too? What's the FLDS rationale for THAT if it proves to be true? Some religious ceremony? Those disobedient boys did it to each other and that's why we have to kick so many out perhaps? Or maybe one of the boys that was recently abandoned/kicked out did it?

SEXUALLY ABUSING CHILDREN is (I think) a way of life in the FLDS and that systemized, learned sort of perversion never seems to be limited to just BOYS or just GIRLS. The FLDS I think condones abuse of ALL the children - abuse of all kinds! They have been perpetuating this way of life for 100 years...it's pretty entrenched by now and I believe it goes to the CORE. If we don't get the kids out at birth, this is never going to be stopped - its a way of life JUSTIFIED by a made-up religion and IMO, IT MUST BE ENDED and the ground salted so it can never spring forth alive again. It would be like saying pedophiles could sexually abuse children because they had been doing it for 100 years and they made up a religion that REQUIRES it. Religion has NO PART IN THIS - take that away and it's plain old garden variety ABUSE and PERVERTED SICKNESS by a group of people that live communally - live communally perhaps for the PURPOSE of having MANY CHILDREN and hiding and facilitating ABUSE OF THOSE SAME CHILDREN.

My opinion

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

Here is the link that i am reading. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

The first quote from the article seems to be somebodies snippet from the report. It seems to be written in a manner to create outrage over the situation. The second quote clarifies that the broken bones are not current.

"Earlier, the department's commissioner, Carey Cockerell, told lawmakers that at least 41 children, some of them "very young," have evidence of broken bones"


"Although Cockerell didn't elaborate on the broken bones, a report by his department's Child Protective Services division said medical exams and interviews indicated 'that at least 41 children have had broken bones in the past.'"

[Peculiar Petunia]

41 out of the whole group isn't alarming, but 41 out of the 5-and-unders would be, in my opinion. I'd like to know from the media how many have been examined.

[FlowerChild]

Carey Cockerell, told lawmakers that at least 41 children, some of them "very young," have evidence of broken bones. The state has custody of 464 children from the Yearning For Zion Ranch in the west Texas prairie town of Eldorado, including a baby born to a teen mother Tuesday.
Although Cockerell didn't elaborate on the broken bones, a report by his department's Child Protective Services division said medical exams and interviews indicated "that at least 41 children have had broken bones in the past."
"We do not have X-rays or complete medical information on many children so it is too early to draw any conclusions based on this information, but it is cause for concern and something we'll continue to examine," the CPS report said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080430/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_37

[froggierintexas]

Hi just wanted to let everyone know that the city here is starting a Garden for the children so they can grow organic produce. They said the children have expressed interest in having a garden and in helping in the garden, so they(the adult workers) have already begun tilling up dirt. And The Ark here (where some of the FLDS children are) has animal therapy too. So they will be able to be around some nature and play with the animals.

They had to turn away donations of actual items because of the items not being appropriate for their use. So they are urging our residents to give cash instead so that they may purchase items the children normally use.

The children are said to be doing well and The Ark Staff is making adjustments in their normal procedures so they children are more at peace.

The youngest one here is 2 months and her mother is a teen and is with her.

[FlowerChild]

Hi just wanted to let everyone know that the city here is starting a Garden for the children so they can grow organic produce. They said the children have expressed interest in having a garden and in helping in the garden, so they(the adult workers) have already begun tilling up dirt. And The Ark here (where some of the FLDS children are) has animal therapy too. So they will be able to be around some nature and play with the animals.

They had to turn away donations of actual items because of the items not being appropriate for their use. So they are urging our residents to give cash instead so that they may purchase items the children normally use.

The children are said to be doing well and The Ark Staff is making adjustments in their normal procedures so they children are more at peace.

The youngest one here is 2 months and her mother is a teen and is with her.

It will be so nice for the children to have the animals since Warren Jeffs FORBID pets in the FLDS and regularly ordered all pets killed. (IMO Warren Jeffs has no regard for any life except HIS OWN and he's trying to raise his very own FLDS Certified sociopaths) At least in THIS CASE the children will learn they can TRUST that no-one is going to appear and shoot all the pets on a whim. It will teach the children they can TRUST the adults there in a way just TELLING them can't do. The kids will SEE that Warren Jeffs isn't all powerful and has no control over them any more - and that outside the FLDS, the "rules" from there mean NOTHING.

Give the kids a garden - but make sure there are bees and butterflies and sweet smelling FLOWERS and beautiful things in it - not just vegetables. Make sure it's a peaceful place for children's hearts to heal, and NOT just a place for WORK or FOOD. I fear these little souls have been "trained" out of childhood joys far too young and they need to be carefree and laugh and play and see the ocean and pet a dog (or a cat) and watch a green catepillar become an orange butterfly and fly away into the big beautiful world outside the garden.

My Opinion

[mysteriew]

Not having actual details of the broken bones, it is hard to tell. And no, 41 out of 400 doesn't seem like many. But a lot of factors will be looked at.

Were the broken bones treated and set by a licensed physician?

The age of the child. A child less than a year old it is rather unusual.

The type of break. A greenstick fracture for instance will happen when a child's extremity is twisted, and no other way.

The story of how the bone was broken. A child who refuses to say how they broke their bone or says they don't remember, a child who says that someone (adult) broke the bone. Or if the injury doesn't match the story.

Also, 41 out of how many children x-rayed? If it is 41 out of 41, then I would say it is reason for concern.

So while 41 broken bones itself doesn't seem alarming, I am going to withhold judgement until more is known.

[biggirl]

It will be so nice for the children to have the animals since Warren Jeffs FORBID pets in the FLDS and regularly ordered all pets killed. (IMO Warren Jeffs has no regard for any life except HIS OWN and he's trying to raise his very own FLDS Certified sociopaths) At least in THIS CASE the children will learn they can TRUST that no-one is going to appear and shoot all the pets on a whim. It will teach the children they can TRUST the adults there in a way just TELLING them can't do. The kids will SEE that Warren Jeffs isn't all powerful and has no control over them any more - and that outside the FLDS, the "rules" from there mean NOTHING.

Give the kids a garden - but make sure there are bees and butterflies and sweet smelling FLOWERS and beautiful things in it - not just vegetables. Make sure it's a peaceful place for children's hearts to heal, and NOT just a place for WORK or FOOD. I fear these little souls have been "trained" out of childhood joys far too young and they need to be carefree and laugh and play and see the ocean and pet a dog (or a cat) and watch a green catepillar become an orange butterfly and fly away into the big beautiful world outside the garden.

My Opinion

Take away all the allegations of sexual abuse and abandonment and control and the only thing I had to hear is that he made them kill their dogs and I knew he was evil through and through. (then you can put back in the other issues and it just confirms it):furious:

[Leila]

Nancy Grace - 04-30-08:

Nancy Grace had Dr. McCarrey from John Hopkins Hospital, who says 41 children with evidence of broken bones is very high! He said national statistics say 4 cases of broken bones per thousand is normal. Edited to add that the FLDS response was that it was a case of brittle bones.

The local reporter in Texas stated that CPS observed the FLDS mothers who initially came with the children when they removed the children beginning on April 4th. Beginning at the compound, CPS put plastic bracelets on each child with their name and age.

The FLDS mothers were observed and they systematically tore the bracelets off; swapped the bracelets between children; and blacked out the names on the bracelets!
:furious:

In regards to the abuse of boys, the reporter in Texas says that when CPS went into the YFZ compound they went to the boys classroom (boys segregated from girls) and found journals. Those journals were among the items seized. The reporter said the information regarding abuse of the boys is coming from the journals and also from the boys who are being interviewed.

[mysteriew]

Nancy Grace - 04-30-08:

Nancy Grace had Dr. McCarrey from John Hopkins Hospital, who says 41 children with evidence of broken bones is very high! He said national statistics say 4 cases of broken bones per thousand is normal. Edited to add that the FLDS response was that it was a case of brittle bones.

The local reporter in Texas stated that CPS observed the FLDS mothers who initially came with the children when they removed the children beginning on April 4th. Beginning at the compound, CPS put plastic bracelets on each child with their name and age.

The FLDS mothers were observed and they systematically tore the bracelets off; swapped the bracelets between children; and blacked out the names on the bracelets!
:furious:

In regards to the abuse of boys, the reporter in Texas says that when CPS went into the YFZ compound they went to the boys classroom (boys segregated from girls) and found journals. Those journals were among the items seized. The reporter said the information regarding abuse of the boys is coming from the journals and also from the boys who are being interviewed.

LOL, and to think of the poor, poor :sick: alleged mother who couldn't find her children. I do believe we now know why!

I hope those journals are very clear on what happened to the boys. That could be some of the best evidence yet. And the most embarrassing to the FLDS yet. They don't seem to care if the girls are abused, they seem to feel that it is essential for the girls to concieve as early and as often as possible. The boys can't conceive. There is no religious "excuse" for the boys abuse.

[Peculiar Petunia]

Don't mean to be flip here, but when your only toy is a trampoline (and what's up with that!?!), you're pretty likely to get broken bones.

[Vegas Bride]

Don't they begin using the boys at a very young age to work in construction etc? I'm thinking there would be a lot of injuries happen when those little boys are having to learn how to run the machinery etc. All to help put cash in Jeffs pockets. IMO he never should see the light of day again.

VB

[mollymalone]

Take away all the allegations of sexual abuse and abandonment and control and the only thing I had to hear is that he made them kill their dogs and I knew he was evil through and through. (then you can put back in the other issues and it just confirms it):furious:
Warren wasn't the only one who did that. Many years ago, reportedly, a dog killed a child and in retaliation his father Rulon Jeffs not only beat the dog to death but he ordered ALL dogs shot. The unsuspecting pets were taken to a gully and beaten or shot or both. In what I read there was nothing said about how the dog killed the child or the circumstances surrounding the event. Like father, like son.

[mollymalone]

froggier, that's nice to know about the children's garden and of all the good hearted people donating. :)

[mysteriew]

Don't mean to be flip here, but when your only toy is a trampoline (and what's up with that!?!), you're pretty likely to get broken bones.

You aren't being flip, that is a good point. But I until we have more details, I think it is too early to tell.

A lot of what CPS will be looking at is the number of fractures in one child. More than a couple of kids with more than one broken bone would be a lot, even with a trampoline.

The type of fracture. A greenstick fracture is most likely caused by twisting of the extremity.

The child's explanation will tell a lot. A child who says I don't know how I got it or I slept on it wrong will be looked at closely as well as the child that says an adult did it.

The age of the child. For instance, is there a large number of kids with broken bones under the age of 1?

The number of kids that have been x-rayed. If they have only xrayed 41 kids and 41 have broken bones, that is going to be suspicious.

Was the child's broken bone medically treated, and treated properly?

So yeah, it is early yet but until more details are known it is hard to know how to read that.

[mysteriew]

A little more detail but not much. Still it is saying very young, and there are kids with multiple fractures.

"Specifics about the investigation are confidential in order to protect the privacy of the children and others," Cockerell said. "But I can tell you generally, we are further investigating the following findings: historical physical injuries and fractures that we have found via medical exams and medical record review. Several of these fractures have been found in very young children and several had multiple fractures."

Most of the information about the fractures was reported to Child Protective Services by the children or their mothers. Few X-rays have been done on the children, agency officials said.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5742558.html
Note the sources of info. Their medical records, medical exams, the mothers and the children themselves. Few xrays have been done.

[mollymalone]

Good for them!

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275171,00.html

Two boys who have turned 18 since being placed in state custody have chosen to stay in the foster facilities with the others. Meisner said it isn't unusual for a teenager to "age" out of the system but choose to remain in state care while they continue their education.

"We have transitional housing programs and many other programs to help them and make sure they are armed with the skills to make it on their own," she said. "Texas has done a lot in this area."

[mollymalone]

A little more detail but not much. Still it is saying very young, and there are kids with multiple fractures.


Note the sources of info. Their medical records, medical exams, the mothers and the children themselves. Few xrays have been done.That phrase "very young children" is disturbing. Just "how young" are they referring to? Toddlers or babies...?

[mysteriew]

That phrase "very young children" is disturbing. Just "how young" are they referring to? Toddlers or babies...?

How about multiple fractures? How many per child?

[mollymalone]

How about multiple fractures? How many per child?That too! And were they set properly.

[Leila]

Good for them!

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275171,00.html

Two boys who have turned 18 since being placed in state custody have chosen to stay in the foster facilities with the others. Meisner said it isn't unusual for a teenager to "age" out of the system but choose to remain in state care while they continue their education.

"We have transitional housing programs and many other programs to help them and make sure they are armed with the skills to make it on their own," she said. "Texas has done a lot in this area."

This is good! Two boys that will have some skills. :)

[Floh]

Good for them!

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275171,00.html

Two boys who have turned 18 since being placed in state custody have chosen to stay in the foster facilities with the others. Meisner said it isn't unusual for a teenager to "age" out of the system but choose to remain in state care while they continue their education.

"We have transitional housing programs and many other programs to help them and make sure they are armed with the skills to make it on their own," she said. "Texas has done a lot in this area."

Marvelous news! these boys won't be lost! :woohoo:

but i am interested to know how come they were still around in the compound at 17? were they special in some way? out of the ordinary? of 'royal' blood?

[LinasK]

Good for them!

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695275171,00.html

Two boys who have turned 18 since being placed in state custody have chosen to stay in the foster facilities with the others. Meisner said it isn't unusual for a teenager to "age" out of the system but choose to remain in state care while they continue their education.

"We have transitional housing programs and many other programs to help them and make sure they are armed with the skills to make it on their own," she said. "Texas has done a lot in this area."

Yea Texas!:clap::dance:

[mysteriew]

What are the medical practices within the group? Dr. David Blodgett is director of public health for the southern Utah region. He said this is a very difficult community to help in terms of public health because it's a very closed community, and they're actually resistant to public health efforts. In fact, he said the public health clinic in the Colorado City/Hildale region was closed because no one was using it.

snip...So what does this isolation mean to public health? An example is they have a raw milk dairy, and Dr. Blodgett said about once a year, they have an outbreak of some type. The outbreak can be hazardous to children and pregnant women. We don't know about that, we don't hear about that, and it would be handled differently if it was happening in the valley. We'd be saying don't drink this milk, but we don't know about that down there.

And a lot of people have asked if the children are vaccinated? The view of the sect tends to be don't get vaccinated, but it's not a blanket policy. So some people do have their children vaccinated. But what that means is that we kind of don't know how the children will do now that they're out in more general populations. It could spell trouble if they are exposed to certain diseases that could have been prevented.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3193024

[Linda7NJ]

I have no problem with them drinking raw milk nor do I have a problem with them choosing not to vaccinate.

[FlowerChild]

I have no problem with them drinking raw milk nor do I have a problem with them choosing not to vaccinate.

Well then the parents shouldn't get upset with CPS when all the kids get chicken pox, measles, mumps etc. It's fine to chose not to vaccinate, but IF that is your choice and your child ends up dead or severely handicapped from diptheria or polio or ends up with vision issues from measles - well - it was their CHOICE and their chance to take. They cannot blame CPS for something directly resulting from what THEY decided to do.

The raw milk thing is a personal choice - I drank raw milk as a kid and if the herd is healthy and you are diligent with sanitary procedures in the dairy, it's not a problem. You do have to be aware of the possible issues though and be very very clean - take NO CHANCES!

My Opinion

[mysteriew]

I have no problem with them drinking raw milk nor do I have a problem with them choosing not to vaccinate.

I confess, I don't have as much of a problem with the raw milk. My grandparents had milk cows and my grandmother made butter. So I grew up drinking raw milk and eating unpasturized butter. Yes, I know that it has been proven to cause illness- but I don't know how high the incidence is.

Vaccinations however could be a bigger problem, especially right now. These kids came from a closed environment and there were limits to the number of persons they came in contact with. As long as they didn't come into contact with a person with a disease, they didn't really need the vaccinations. But the increased exposure to other people now, means an increased risk.

They are exposed to a lot of people. It would only take exposure to one person who carried an illness to cause a widespread illness in the kids. Due to the number of pregnant children, that is especially a concern. Hopefully, with most other people being vaccinated, that won't be a problem.

[SewingDeb]

I just read online the comments noted above that 41 kids may currently or previously had broken bones. My initial reaction was thank goodness we removed the kids. Then it occurred to me that that is 10% of the kids. I think that if we go to the general public, the percentage of kids that have ever broken a bone would be higher. I actually agree with the FLDS that this fact is being mentioned in a political fashion against the FLDS. If the broken bones are from accidents and not abuse AND if they were treated propperly and followed up on, then that statistic itself doesn't worry me. That number alone doesn't provide enough information to decide one way or the other whether there was abuse going on - in the form of broken bones that is.

My opinion.

A doctor from John Hopkins said on Nancy Grace last night that 5 in 1000 children break a bone by age 16.

[FlowerChild]

A doctor from John Hopkins said on Nancy Grace last night that 5 in 1000 children break a bone by age 16.
Per Dr From J-Hopkins
Broken Bones - Normal kids .05%
Broken Bones - YFZ Kids 8.5%

Theres a big difference between the normal .05% of kids with evidence of broken bones and 8.5% of kids with evidence of broken bones. And that only figures in kids age 0-16 - and we know there are about 30 YFZ kids that are supposedly age 17 - which makes the percentage even HIGHER in reality.

I would certainly say that 8.5% of the YFZ kids with OVERT evidence of broken bones indicates something VERY ABNORMAL TO ME. And I imagine to CPS as well. CPS would be derelict in their DUTY if they didn't investigate further WHY there seems to be evidence of so many broken bones with only the most cursory and minimal of investigation completed. And they did say that broken bones were found among VERY SMALL children - perhaps too young to be ON a trampoline Or "falling" hard enough to break BONES???!!! If that many little kids are falling down something is wrong - you expect such injuries to happen with parents who are drug abusers or alcoholics or mentally ill because of parental negligence - and the FLDS (with multiple Mommies per child) is the LAST group who would seem at risk for that type of negligence - so IT MUST BE SOMETHING ELSE???

41 kids with broken bones out of the 464 from the YFZ Ranch is the equivalent of 85 children in a group of 1000 kids of the same ages in say in Dallas - and 85 kids with broken bones out of 1000 is a LOT of broken bones for normal, healthy kids - normal kids who play organized SPORTS, kids with trampolines and skateboards and skates, kids who play on swings and slides and monkey bars, kids who swim and climb and imitate super-heroes, little girls who aren't weighed down with ankle length dresses and who take gymnastics classes. Normal kids are involved in 100 different activities every day that potentially could result in broken bones - and yet only 5 out of a thousand of them break a bone. YFZ Kids don't do ANY of those activities (except trampoline) and 85 out of 1000 of them SOMEHOW end up with one or more broken bones before age 16....HMMMMM????

My Opinion

[thefragile7393]

Well then the parents shouldn't get upset with CPS when all the kids get chicken pox, measles, mumps etc. It's fine to chose not to vaccinate, but IF that is your choice and your child ends up dead or severely handicapped from diptheria or polio or ends up with vision issues from measles - well - it was their CHOICE and their chance to take. They cannot blame CPS for something directly resulting from what THEY decided to do.

The raw milk thing is a personal choice - I drank raw milk as a kid and if the herd is healthy and you are diligent with sanitary procedures in the dairy, it's not a problem. You do have to be aware of the possible issues though and be very very clean - take NO CHANCES!

My Opinion
When was the last time diptheria or polio was in the US? Check out the weekly MMRWR from the CDC first. Measles can be safely treated without the complications, as can all the VADs, including ones that children aren't likely to get here. They CAN blame CPS if something happens because of the vaccines, though it would be difficult, if not impossible, to prove it and it would go nowhere, as CPS was, in their mind, acting on the best interests of the children, and no one is held accountable in the vaccine world for damage that supposedly dosn't happen or rarely happens in the first place. And no vaccine is 100% effective in every person...who gets the blame should they get the illness they were vax'ed for? Note, I'm not going to start a debate, nor respond to anyone who wants to try...not the forum for it and I don't debate anyway. It's just very aggrivating to see people taking issue with minor things and slamming them, when really there are bigger issues with these kids then lack of vaccinations and raw milk....especially when there's tons of misinformation and prejudice from the un-educated and ignorant on topics like this. I'm more concerned about treating them for any abuse they may have encountered, not the non-following of mainstream parenting that a lot of people, not just this faction of the FLDS, follow.

[Leila]

There's a headline at the Fox News website that there's an outbreak of measles right now.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353800,00.html

[c2cd208]

If the state does decide to not let these chidlren return to their parents, and lets all pray they never have to go back to that living h*ll again, what will happen with the children? Will the state place them into foster care with new families or keep them together at some sort of youth ranch or something?

It seems that it may be diffictult to place over 400 children. I know there are tons of children even in my own state that pray daily to be placed with foster families. There is already a huge demand for care for children.

[mysteriew]

There's a headline at the Fox News website that there's an outbreak of measles right now.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353800,00.html

This is a problem to be concerned about. Esp. with the number of pregnant girls they have. It can cause problems with any child, but is especially bad for unborn children.

[Peculiar Petunia]

German measles can be even worse!

[mysteriew]

When was the last time diptheria or polio was in the US? Check out the weekly MMRWR from the CDC first. Measles can be safely treated without the complications, as can all the VADs, including ones that children aren't likely to get here. They CAN blame CPS if something happens because of the vaccines, though it would be difficult, if not impossible, to prove it and it would go nowhere, as CPS was, in their mind, acting on the best interests of the children, and no one is held accountable in the vaccine world for damage that supposedly dosn't happen or rarely happens in the first place. And no vaccine is 100% effective in every person...who gets the blame should they get the illness they were vax'ed for? Note, I'm not going to start a debate, nor respond to anyone who wants to try...not the forum for it and I don't debate anyway. It's just very aggrivating to see people taking issue with minor things and slamming them, when really there are bigger issues with these kids then lack of vaccinations and raw milk....especially when there's tons of misinformation and prejudice from the un-educated and ignorant on topics like this. I'm more concerned about treating them for any abuse they may have encountered, not the non-following of mainstream parenting that a lot of people, not just this faction of the FLDS, follow.

Actually I somewhat agree with you. I don't really care that the kids don't have a lot of toys or crayons. I don't care that they don't have TVs. Kids can grow up healthy, strong and well adjusted even without those. Some parents who are not FLDS also choose to parent under these conditions- and do so successfully.

I don't care so much if the kids have had to do chores, even raising a garden or helping to supervise other kids. Kids can grow up healthy and strong even in those conditions- as long as it wasn't taken to excess and as long as they weren't working long hours in commercial ventures. Some kids grow up to be more responsible adults when raised this way. I was born and raised on a farm and helped my parents in the fields at a young age. And I know of a lot of kids who have done the same. But we were all also allowed time to play and to be kids.

Physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse (fear, no bonding, trading parents, no attachments), medical neglect and incest I do think we should be looking at.

[froggierintexas]

If the state does decide to not let these chidlren return to their parents, and lets all pray they never have to go back to that living h*ll again, what will happen with the children? Will the state place them into foster care with new families or keep them together at some sort of youth ranch or something?

It seems that it may be diffictult to place over 400 children. I know there are tons of children even in my own state that pray daily to be placed with foster families. There is already a huge demand for care for children.


I wonder too. If you look at the number of children looking for a family in Texas already, it makes you wonder.

Here is a Texas site where you can look at 52 pages of children needing homes. http://tare.dfps.state.tx.us/search/SearchResults.jsp

[c2cd208]

I wonder too. If you look at the number of children looking for a family in Texas already, it makes you wonder.

Here is a Texas site where you can look at 52 pages of children needing homes. http://tare.dfps.state.tx.us/search/SearchResults.jsp
My neighbor has a social degree and she has friends who foster parent and has often talked of situations and has explained to me that there just are not enough people willing to foster due to the fact that a lot of the chidlren in the system come from such bad places that it is a really hard job to help the children balance out. I know that most states are in the same shape, then I look at the link you provided and it scares me because I worry about where these children will go. If I had the room in my home I would open it up to foster, but I just do not have any room. I will pray that someday the Lord will bless us with a larger home so that we can help out children in need like this. Seeing those faces just makes you want to open your arms and hug and kiss these children and shower them with the love they deserve. Chidren do not ask to be braught into this world especially into a cult like this. It just makes me sick.

No children do not need a lot of toy's, they need to learn to garden because the Bible teaches that if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, if you teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. So I have no problem with them wanting to be productive. But they do need love, attention, pets, and SOME toys. They need education and people to guide, protect and teach them how to go out into the world.

[mollymalone]

I was researching to see what I could find on Warren Jeffs wives, and I just had a thought... how many of those women and young girls, pregnant or otherwise belonged to him? He was marrying younger girls and I'm sure that his wives would be among the "privileged" to live at Zion, even if he was incarcerated.

[Floh]

In light of the Fritzl Austrian monster case, i'm beginning to wonder if Warren Jeffs had sex and fathered any children with his daughters?

[mollymalone]

In light of the Fritzl Austrian monster case, i'm beginning to wonder if Warren Jeffs had sex and fathered any children with his daughters?It's quite likely a good bet that he has.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/labels/William%20E.%20Jessop.htm
Warren Jeffs: Okay. I have this message. The lord has intervened and detected me to myself. He has shown me that I have not held priesthood since I was 20 years old, having been immoral with a sister and a daughter. And father pointing his finger to me was father's test on all of us.

http://www.westwoodone.com/pg/jsp/larryking/transcript.jsp;jsessionid=231C7A4DFD819F848D6685A0 C64B36A1?pid=21592

WATKISS: These are all of his most faithful followers. I bet -- when they sort everything out, Larry, I bet many of the people who they have taken out of that compound turn out to be Warren Jeffs' immediate family. And when I say that, I'm talking about his dozens of wives, his dozens and dozens of children. These are only Warren Jeffs' selected people.

He's abandoned the people in Colorado City and Hildale. They continue to send down their dollars and their daughters, but the bottom line, this is only Warren Jeffs' selected people. This is basically his little monument to himself. Thank goodness he's in jail in Kingman. But he was building this so he could escape the law and basically repopulate his flock, I think, with his own seed.

[mollymalone]

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy892.htmlTexas District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order Wednesday giving the state custody of the 1-day-old infant born to a teen believed to be 15 or 16 years old. The girl has claimed to be 18 and based on a bishop's record used during the custody hearing two weeks ago, she would be 18 now. But officials believe she is younger and placed her in foster care with other children taken from the ranch.

The newborn is the teen's second child; the first is a 20-month-old boy. The father of both children was identified as Jackson Jessop, 22, but state officials say they don't know his whereabouts.

[mollymalone]

This link is to a Bishop's list for 2007http://www.myeldorado.net/graphics/BishopsList.pdf

Remember Unibrow? She's wife #19 out of 22. Her name is Merilyn and her husband is Wendell Nielson, counselor and close confidant of Warren Jeffs.

BTW, when she testified at the hearing, she said her name was Merilyn Jeffs.

[justathought]

I just finished reading Carolyn Jessop's book, "Escape" last night. Has Carolyn Jessop had any contact with her daughter, "Betty" and does she know where she is?

The book is excellent and certainly illustrates why the state of Texas had to take action.

I've been following news and info about this cult for some time after reading Under the Banner of Heaven shortly after it was published.

[mysteriew]

ELDORADO, TEX. -- The Yearning For Zion ranch a few miles west of nowhere was built to keep the secrets of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints hidden from prying eyes.

But the church's days of splendid isolation and impenetrable secrecy - only the top fringe of the temple's white limestone walls visible from a distant rural road at the edge of the 1,700-acre spread - are rapidly ending.

The Texas Rangers raid of the secluded ranch in early April led to sensational allegations of grooming underage girls for marriage and sexual abuse. And the discovery of a 17-year-old girl at the ranch from an FLDS community in British Columbia could expose a part of the church's life that governments on both sides of the border have long ignored.

Her parents say she had been visiting her grandmother who was living at the Texas ranch. But a weeklong Globe and Mail investigation indicates the trip may have been a ride on a little-known underground railway that takes young girls across the Canada-U.S. border - in both directions - for one purpose: to be assigned as a so-called celestial bride to FLDS men.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080503.POLYGAMY03/TPStory/TPInternational/America/

This article is out of Canada and is pretty informative. I don't see a lot of bias either way, and they didn't even smirk as they wrote about what Blackmore said about the media.

[mysteriew]

Texas appears to be in it for the long haul with the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

As state officials await DNA results to help identify the parents of many of the 464 children in state custody, a Utah official said Friday that it will take time to sort out the complex web of relationships within the polygamist sect in Eldorado.

Patricia Sheffield, director of Washington County Children's Justice Center in St. George, Utah, who has dealt with abuse cases involving polygamist families, was one of several out-of-state advisers brought to Texas this week to give guidance to caseworkers overseeing the children removed from the YFZ Ranch after allegations of child abuse prompted a raid on the compound.

"I believe it will probably go into months," Sheffield said. "I don't see how it could not."

And the strain on state agencies will likely last even longer.

http://www.star-telegram.com/national_news/story/620542.html

You know I do have to give Texas CPS some kudos. They do appear to be sensitive to the kids religious orientation, to their lifestyle and culture. And they do seem to be taking those into account in their dealings with them. Many of the CPS 'norms' have and will be turned completely around before this is over.

They are working with other agencies on the terminologies used, attempting to work with the food challenges, attempting to place as many of the kids as possible together, using shelters where they can control the kids exposure rather than foster homes. No I am sure the FLDS doesn't agree with how the situation is being handled. But the CPS has gone over and above on these kids. Way beyond what they would do with other children they might take.

[cheko1]

[quote=mysteriew;

You know I do have to give Texas CPS some kudos. They do appear to be sensitive to the kids religious orientation, to their lifestyle and culture. And they do seem to be taking those into account in their dealings with them. Many of the CPS 'norms' have and will be turned completely around before this is over.

They are working with other agencies on the terminologies used, attempting to work with the food challenges, attempting to place as many of the kids as possible together, using shelters where they can control the kids exposure rather than foster homes. No I am sure the FLDS doesn't agree with how the situation is being handled. But the CPS has gone over and above on these kids. Way beyond what they would do with other children they might take.[/quote]

I shortened your post to reply mysteriew! I agree with you so much CPS are totally accomodating the kids & doing everything to make this easy on the kids. Anything they can do to make it easier & more comfortable for the kids CPS is doing it.

[cheko1]

This link is to a Bishop's list for 2007http://www.myeldorado.net/graphics/BishopsList.pdf

Remember Unibrow? She's wife #19 out of 22. Her name is Merilyn and her husband is Wendell Nielson, counselor and close confidant of Warren Jeffs.

BTW, when she testified at the hearing, she said her name was Merilyn Jeffs.


That goes to show you how much she wants her kids back she lies about her last name & who she is.

Unibrow is 1 of 21 wives & helps house 36 kids.

I wonder if there is any proof anyplace as to how old they actually are? Its easy for the Bishops list to say the wives are 16 / but how old are they really?

Even with birth certificates they could lie about who they are. They're masters at deceit.

[Moe]

They sure are, but it seems no one is buying their sob stories at the moment, because they lie.
Does anyone know how many DNA tests have been given to adults? The proof is in the pudding, no DNA no kids. I'm sorry if that sounds cold, but what else can CPS do? Did the judge order DNA testing? Is a court order being violated?

[Ca-Sun]

This link is to a Bishop's list for 2007http://www.myeldorado.net/graphics/BishopsList.pdf

Remember Unibrow? She's wife #19 out of 22. Her name is Merilyn and her husband is Wendell Nielson, counselor and close confidant of Warren Jeffs.

BTW, when she testified at the hearing, she said her name was Merilyn Jeffs.Perhaps she has been 'reassigned' to a new husband?

[yolorado]

They sure are, but it seems no one is buying their sob stories at the moment, because they lie.
Does anyone know how many DNA tests have been given to adults? The proof is in the pudding, no DNA no kids. I'm sorry if that sounds cold, but what else can CPS do?

Agreed. The court has allegations of various things, and it has all these kids with CPS not really having any confidence that they know who these kids are, when they were born, or who they were born to. Kids were changing their stories and parents were telling the authorities different birthdays and names. It was pretty obvious they were lying and trying to hide facts. Plus, you've all these rumors of 'reassignment,' and stories of members missing from other families. CPS may have had actual contacts from family members looking for children somewhere in the FLDS.

DNA is the only sane option here. Before they can 'give back children' to their parents, they're going to find out exactly who those parents actually are. That's the only sensible option under these circumstances. After that, the court can deal with each kid's situation.

[mollymalone]

Perhaps she has been 'reassigned' to a new husband?I think Jeffs is her name, she's probably closely related to Warren Jeffs, perhaps a daughter or a neice, cousin etc.. since she's not legally married to Wendall Neilson but is one of his other wives, she isn't using his last name. I'd hazard a guess and say she might be one of WJ's daughters. He and his close friends have a habit of marrying each other's daughters. What better way to bind them to you than family ties. She has to be one of the more trusted women to be allowed to go in front of the cameras and to testify in court.

[mollymalone]

That goes to show you how much she wants her kids back she lies about her last name & who she is.

Unibrow is 1 of 21 wives & helps house 36 kids.

I wonder if there is any proof anyplace as to how old they actually are? Its easy for the Bishops list to say the wives are 16 / but how old are they really?

Even with birth certificates they could lie about who they are. They're masters at deceit.Reading about how when she was testifying and asked about her sister and her sister's children she was hesitant as if a)she didn't know or b)she was considering what to say that wouldn't get her in trouble from Wendall and Merrill.

[Leila]

I think Jeffs is her name, she's probably closely related to Warren Jeffs, perhaps a daughter or a neice, cousin etc.. since she's not legally married to Wendall Neilson but is one of his other wives, she isn't using his last name. I'd hazard a guess and say she might be one of WJ's daughters. He and his close friends have a habit of marrying each other's daughters. What better way to bind them to you than family ties. She has to be one of the more trusted women to be allowed to go in front of the cameras and to testify in court.

When Merilyn gave the tour of her home, Larry King had Carolyn Jessop on and after viewing the tour, Carolyn identified Merilyn as Merilyn Jeffs, and said she had known her since she (Merilyn) was very young.

[mollymalone]

When Merilyn gave the tour of her home, Larry King had Carolyn Jessop on and after viewing the tour, Carolyn identified Merilyn as Merilyn Jeffs, and said she had known her since she (Merilyn) was very young.Carolyn didn't identify who Merilyn's father was did she? She resembles Warren Jeffs.

The name Merilyn is also the name of Warren Jeff's mother. Presumably she was named after her.

[mollymalone]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3207603

Brent says he knows of children whose bones were intentionally broken by their fathers as a form of discipline. "I know it exists. It's sad to see and hear all these stories of these kids getting their arms broken. I can't imagine what they're doing to these kids," he said. "These little boys, just like me, it's happening to them right within their own families. They're getting ruined. I mean, it's ruining these kids."

Investigators recently invited Brent to Texas to learn of life inside the FLDS community. He blames the men for not coming forward to give DNA. He believes many of them have already left Eldorado.

"They're all over. They're in South Dakota, down in Mexico, up in Canada. I'm sure they're everywhere," Brent said. "They need to face the music like every other citizen in the United States. If you do something illegal, you need to be tried in court and pay for what you've done."

[Leila]

Carolyn didn't identify who Merilyn's father was did she? She resembles Warren Jeffs.

The name Merilyn is also the name of Warren Jeff's mother. Presumably she was named after her.

Carolyn Jessop only identified her as Merilyn Jeffs and said she had known her since she was very young. If the age of Merilyn is correct - 32, and considering that Carolyn Jessop was married to Merrill Jessop for 17 years before her escape 5 years ago, Carolyn may have known Merilyn since Merilyn was about 9 or 10 years old.

Carolyn didn't mention any parentage, but Merilyn does look like Warren Jeffs. It's the shape of her face.

[mollymalone]

Carolyn Jessop only identified her as Merilyn Jeffs and said she had known her since she was very young. If the age of Merilyn is correct - 32, and considering that Carolyn Jessop was married to Merrill Jessop for 17 years before her escape 5 years ago, Carolyn may have known Merilyn since Merilyn was about 9 or 10 years old.

Carolyn didn't mention any parentage, but Merilyn does look like Warren Jeffs. It's the shape of her face.Yes, and in certain features.

BTW Annette Barlow Jeffs is Warren Jeff's legal wife, and there's an "Annette" who spoke out in the media and she was "away" when the children were removed, and Annette, WJ's wife gets to see him on visiting days. There's an Annette Jeffs who was listed on the public subpoena. I'm wondering whether they're all the same "Annette" or not. If she is, then some of the children removed probably were his.

[Leila]

Yes, and in certain features.

BTW Annette Barlow Jeffs is Warren Jeff's legal wife, and there's an "Annette" who spoke out in the media and she was "away" when the children were removed, and Annette, WJ's wife gets to see him on visiting days. There's an Annette Jeffs who was listed on the public subpoena. I'm wondering whether they're all the same "Annette" or not. If she is, then some of the children removed probably were his.

One article described Annette as having five children of her own and 6 nieces and nephews. If Annette is the Annette that's married to Warren Jeffs, then there's 5 children to begin with.

[Medusa]

Perhaps she has been 'reassigned' to a new husband?

I was thinking that, or, that she was born a Jeffs and as she isn't legally married, that is her legal name?

[mollymalone]

http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/620718.html
Arguments that children should not be separated from their mothers simply have no purchase when it is apparent that the mothers are incapable of protecting their children from sexual or other abuse, or unwilling to do so."

"If the already-disseminated knowledge about the FLDS is not enough, there were reports last week alleging an FLDS baby graveyard with 200 graves between the Arizona and Utah compounds. Advocates are telling us that these graves are the result of brutal abuse of young children to obtain their obedience, and probably medical neglect and the genetic deformities that result from generations of inbreeding. Yet many have asserted a violation of due process, as though the authorities are required to be intentionally ignorant about communities within their jurisdiction."

[mollymalone]

http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/620718.html
"FLDS lawyers have been floating to the media and public the bizarre notion that authorities were required to enter the compound with a mental blank slate, as though they knew absolutely nothing about the FLDS. It is a position that defies common sense."

"Authorities in Arizona, Utah and South Dakota, where other FLDS compounds are situated, have made it very clear that they would never follow the Texas authorities' lead of taking all of the children away from obvious danger. Indeed, the Utah attorney general was peeved that Texas would make such a bold move, because it could undermine his increasingly friendly relations with the FLDS in Utah. Arizona's attorney general sent out a news release essentially telling Arizonans not to expect any dramatic rescue of children obviously at high risk of abuse, because Arizona law just does not permit it. The latter has yet to explain precisely why he believes that children at imminent risk of harm cannot be brought to safety in that state. (And if he believes that is the law, surely he should call for a change in it!) In South Dakota, the authorities say they are awaiting some triggering event that will permit them to check on the girls and women.

It really is remarkable: American law enforcement routinely infiltrates criminal organizations in which the issues are drugs and money, but when the issue is widespread child abuse, they "have to" sit on their hands until somehow, some
way one of those on the inside of a cult invites them inside.

[mollymalone]

Yesterday I was struck by several different comments I'd heard. One comment was from several of the flds women stressing that their children were "clean and pure." At first I took that to mean that they were uncontaminated by outside all the usual "corrupting influences" of society. But after hearing the other comments, I don't think that anymore.

The other comments I heard were to the effect "Jeffs was trying to create a pure race"; "they don't accept members from outside the church, believing that only their blood is "pure." I posted previously that this smacked of the nazi breeding programs. That their beliefs regarding incest, that it is right and proper in order to achieve this "purity" is chilling. It's merely a euphemism to cloak their crimes against children in catch phrases.

[mysteriew]

Yesterday I was struck by several different comments I'd heard. One comment was from several of the flds women stressing that their children were "clean and pure." At first I took that to mean that they were uncontaminated by outside all the usual "corrupting influences" of society. But after hearing the other comments, I don't think that anymore.

The other comments I heard were to the effect "Jeffs was trying to create a pure race"; "they don't accept members from outside the church, believing that only their blood is "pure." I posted previously that this smacked of the nazi breeding programs. That their beliefs regarding incest, that it is right and proper in order to achieve this "purity" is chilling. It's merely a euphemism to cloak their crimes against children in catch phrases.

Good point, they aren't actually referring to their children- they are referring to their children's blood being "clean and pure" ie descended from the prophet.

[Leila]

http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/620718.html
"FLDS lawyers have been floating to the media and public the bizarre notion that authorities were required to enter the compound with a mental blank slate, as though they knew absolutely nothing about the FLDS. It is a position that defies common sense."

"Authorities in Arizona, Utah and South Dakota, where other FLDS compounds are situated, have made it very clear that they would never follow the Texas authorities' lead of taking all of the children away from obvious danger. Indeed, the Utah attorney general was peeved that Texas would make such a bold move, because it could undermine his increasingly friendly relations with the FLDS in Utah. Arizona's attorney general sent out a news release essentially telling Arizonans not to expect any dramatic rescue of children obviously at high risk of abuse, because Arizona law just does not permit it. The latter has yet to explain precisely why he believes that children at imminent risk of harm cannot be brought to safety in that state. (And if he believes that is the law, surely he should call for a change in it!) In South Dakota, the authorities say they are awaiting some triggering event that will permit them to check on the girls and women.

It really is remarkable: American law enforcement routinely infiltrates criminal organizations in which the issues are drugs and money, but when the issue is widespread child abuse, they "have to" sit on their hands until somehow, some
way one of those on the inside of a cult invites them inside.

The authorities in Utah and Arizona have been using the soft approach with the FLDS for years, and it's gotten nowhere. It's only allowed the FLDS to proliferate and allowed for further abuses, and the abuses seem to be getting worse.

[Leila]

Yesterday I was struck by several different comments I'd heard. One comment was from several of the flds women stressing that their children were "clean and pure." At first I took that to mean that they were uncontaminated by outside all the usual "corrupting influences" of society. But after hearing the other comments, I don't think that anymore.

The other comments I heard were to the effect "Jeffs was trying to create a pure race"; "they don't accept members from outside the church, believing that only their blood is "pure." I posted previously that this smacked of the nazi breeding programs. That their beliefs regarding incest, that it is right and proper in order to achieve this "purity" is chilling. It's merely a euphemism to cloak their crimes against children in catch phrases.

The concept of creating a "pure race", and the belief that other races - blacks and Jews - were inferior, was a basic belief of Hitler and Nazism. Hitler also sought to exterminate anyone who was handicapped, and performed horrific experiments on them before they died. I see a lot of similarities between the beliefs of Hitler and Warren Jeffs.

[mollymalone]

The concept of creating a "pure race", and the belief that other races - blacks and Jews - were inferior, was a basic belief of Hitler and Nazism. Hitler also sought to exterminate anyone who was handicapped, and performed horrific experiments on them before they died. I see a lot of similarities between the beliefs of Hitler and Warren Jeffs.Warren is reportedly a fan of and fascinated by hitler. It's not too far a stretch for me to believe that he's modeling his twisted practices on hitler's experiments.

[SweetPea2]

That goes to show you how much she wants her kids back she lies about her last name & who she is.

Unibrow is 1 of 21 wives & helps house 36 kids.

I wonder if there is any proof anyplace as to how old they actually are? Its easy for the Bishops list to say the wives are 16 / but how old are they really?

Even with birth certificates they could lie about who they are. They're masters at deceit.
Alot of these women go by their maiden names and not the married name so she may not be lying.

[yolorado]

The authorities in Utah and Arizona have been using the soft approach with the FLDS for years, and it's gotten nowhere. It's only allowed the FLDS to proliferate and allowed for further abuses, and the abuses seem to be getting worse.

In addition to acting in what the state felt were the best interests of the children at the El Dorado compound, I think that they also intended to fire a big shot across the FLDS's bow. Not in Texas...it ain't happening here. Maybe in Arizona or Utah. Not here. If you want to mess with Texas, get ready to deal with a more prickly entity that you've been used to up until now. Frankly, I'm glad Texas is playing hardball. It's about time someone did.

[FlowerChild]

In addition to acting in what the state felt were the best interests of the children at the El Dorado compound, I think that they also intended to fire a big shot across the FLDS's bow. Not in Texas...it ain't happening here. Maybe in Arizona or Utah. Not here. If you want to mess with Texas, get ready to deal with a more prickly entity that you've been used to up until now. Frankly, I'm glad Texas is playing hardball. It's about time someone did.
The Local and State Govt.'s of AZ and UT are FILLED with mainstream LDS members. How many of these "official" speaking out are LDS members? The LDS Church has traditionally tried to ignore the FLDS away - all they ever say is THEY don't allow polygamy - but they don't seem to do much else to discourage the splinter groups like FLDS from practicing it (and the other abusive practices they embrace). Say "WE" don't do it doesn't really have much of an effect on ANYTHING. They won't even engage in a dialog about it.

And the officials have a RELATIONSHIP with the FLDS??? My butt! What good does THAT DO? We have a relationship?? Oh yeah, you lie to us, we believe your lies and go away...some RELATIONSHIP that is! Opening up up communication and "building trust" - oh yeah - we need to build the FLDS's trust in LE and he State Govt - that's important :bang:

Texas isn't going to budge on this - we don't have entire TOWNS where every person is a member of the FLDS and we really do not spend a lot of time worrying what the LDS Church members here might say about the YFZ Raid. These "men" who say they would NEVER do what Texas did mean it - they wouldn't - because the LDS Church and it's members (80% of the population - and they VOTE) would be embarrassed and unhappy to have the LDS Church get some of the FLDS dirt splashed on THEM! The FLDS is very secretive...but so is the LDS - and the two share MANY of the same tenets and practices.

The AZ and UT folks are taking orders from their OWN PROPHET and PRESIDENT - and that (don't dig up any dirt lest some spill on YOU) approach doesn't work in Texas. I never has and it never will. Most of Texas is descended from ancestors who didn't fit the mold to begin with - outlaws, cowboys, madams and mail order brides. We ain't buying what the FLDS is selling - we wanna see the "horse's mouth" before we talk about buying him.

I guess AZ and UT will now welcome back the FLDS members with open arms. They all but said "Move back here and we'll keep ignoring you like always..oh and here's your aid and a subsidy check...because you are now HOMELESS and we must "help" you get back home again.

Somebody should be taking names...really!

My Opinion

[mykodiak]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:We ain't buying what the FLDS is selling - we wanna see the "horse's mouth" before we talk about buying him.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Well said.

[biggirl]

:clap::clap::clap:

Well said.

I agree with you mykodiak, Flowerchild nailed it. It isn't always pleasant or "sweet" to hear, but some States aren't going to turn a blind eye to the FLDS and allow the abuse to continue. If I were a taxpayer in AZ or UT I would be appalled that some of my hard earned tax money was going to these people that hate and despises the very hand that feeds them. Enough is enough!!! Yea Texas!!!!!!!!:clap::clap:

[Pepper]

I'm concerned that some in the media played the sympathy angle on the kids being "wrenched from their mother's arms" and I sure hope it doesn't turn into a big sympathy fest like in the Short Creek raid.

Merril Jessop and others proved that a father with 30+ kids can't be a father, in the sense of one-on-one relationship when he doesn't even know the names and birthdates of most of them. Likewise the mothers who have 10+ kids each with several sister wives with lots of kids cannot bond to those children in a healthy and dedicated way. These children, from the time they are born, are denied the love to which they are entitled anyway, by virtue of their religious beliefs.

I will never believe that very large families of 10+ kids can experience the same degree of bonding as stable families with fewer kids. There just isn't enough of mommy and daddy to go around to make each child feel special and equally loved. The older kids, by necessity, take on the additional task of raising the younger ones. I just believe that the more kids, the less personal is the relationship.

So while the children may be initially upset in the change in their surroundings, I seriously doubt that many of them long for their mother's caress, especially if they don't even know which one is their mother.

[Linda7NJ]

I'm concerned that some in the media played the sympathy angle on the kids being "wrenched from their mother's arms" and I sure hope it doesn't turn into a big sympathy fest like in the Short Creek raid.

Merrill Jessop and others proved that a father with 30+ kids can't be a father, in the sense of one-on-one relationship when he doesn't even know the names and birthdates of most of them. Likewise the mothers who have 10+ kids each with several sister wives with lots of kids cannot bond to those children in a healthy and dedicated way. These children, from the time they are born, are denied the love to which they are entitled anyway, by virtue of their religious beliefs.

I will never believe that very large families of 10+ kids can experience the same degree of bonding as stable families with fewer kids. There just isn't enough of mommy and daddy to go around to make each child feel special and equally loved. The older kids, by necessity, take on the additional task of raising the younger ones. I just believe that the more kids, the less personal is the relationship.

So while the children may be initially upset in the change in their surroundings, I seriously doubt that many of them long for their mother's caress, especially if they don't even know which one is their mother.

I totally disagree. My father was one of 16 children. Of course the older children take on some responsibility for the younger ones. What's wrong with learning responsibility???? If ya ask me...far too many children in small families are raised with NONE and they grow up to be selfish & immature. My fathers side of the family was always extremely close and always there for each other. There isn't enough of those kinds of sibling relationships now in my opinion.

[MCDRAW]

Large families get a bad rap now a days. Years ago they were the norm. It's amazing that there wasn't near the crime rate that we have now. I come from a large family....we are all very close. My husband only has one sister and they are not at all close. We live 15 miles from her and they only see each other at Christmas. They never talk to each other. I on the other hand talk to at least one of my siblings every day. I think it has more to do with how you are raised then how many are in your family.

[Pepper]

http://helpthechildbrides.com/news/teddybear.htm

Teddy bears, pigtails, 13-year-old girls. . .and Marriage!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In April, a 13-year-old girl described to a Utah jury the horror of her father marrying her off to a 48 year old man when a prosecutor asked if she could have fabricated having sex with older men.
``There's no way my imagination could make up what I went through,'' she answered, while clutching a teddy bear.

more at link

[Floh]

I couldn't care less about large families so long as they function in a healthy way supporting all children a part of their family. and can be financially supported by the parents of large families without 'bleeding the beast'. :furious:

but the large families displayed by the FLDS are in no way healthy at all.

IMO.

[mollymalone]

http://www.fundamentalforums.com/showthread.php?t=48360
Fumarase deficiency began to manifest in the community when three sets of Joseph Smith Jessop and Martha Moore Yeates' great-grandchildren married each other..... The children afflicted with fumarase deficiency from these three marriages include the grandchildren of Dan Barlow and his brother, the late Louis Barlow, and Merill Jessop, a top aide to fugitive prophet Warren Jeffs. It is Merill Jessop who is overseeing construction of a massive FLDS temple in Eldorado, Texas, where many believe Prophet Jeffs plans to move his faithful eventually. Dan Barlow, who has been excommunicated from the FLDS, and Merill Jessop could not be reached for comment. But Isaac Wyler, a former FLDS member who was excommunicated from the church last year, says he has firsthand knowledge of multiple fumarase deficiency children in each of the three families. "I know this off the top of my head," Wyler says. "I know these people personally.

[mollymalone]

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
According to a court document..... The document reflects the difficulty Texas is having figuring out the parents of each child. In some instances, two different women are listed as the mother of a child. There also are instances of two different fathers being listed for a child. Some children have an ''unknown father.'' There also are cases of ''unknown mother." Many men listed as fathers do not appear in the Bishop's Record documents, which I guess means they were not living at the YFZ Ranch or had even been exiled from the FLDS sect.

Several names are notable. Here is one: Lloyd Wall, listed as the father of boy. Lloyd Wall also is the father of Elissa Wall, the key witness in Utah's criminal conviction of Warren S. Jeffs, and Becky Musser..."

[mollymalone]

http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/polygamous.htm
In 2005, Flora Jessop and Linda Walker, director of the Child Protection Among the 324 marked graves were 180 of children under the age of eighteen. In addition, there were 58 unmarked graves of babies. Jessop and Walker also list 74 FLDS members who they know have died, but whose headstones are not in the Carling or Babyland cemeteries. Among them are 18 minor children plus eight stillbirths. Some of these children may be in the unmarked graves, they note. Jessop says she saw and heard of many deaths of children while she was growing up in the FLDS towns." (more at link!).........." Her room was next to the sect’s birthing center, which her uncle was in charge of; Jessop says she became aware during that period that many babies died and were buried in the backyard of the birthing center.

[mollymalone]

http://www.childrenshealthcare.org/polygamous.htm
She also has seen many children with severe birth defects. Two of her siblings have cleft palates. Another sister was born with dislocated hips. No*thing was done about it until the baby was about 18 months old. Then both of her hips had to be bro*ken, and she was put in a body cast for months. Two defectors claim that some FLDS women pray to have Down’s syndrome children because such children have docile temperaments and be*cause the mothers get $500/month in public assistance for a handicapped child.

They love their children SO much they'll NOT get them proper medical care right away. :mad:

[Pepper]

http://www.examiner.com/a-1387835~Second_sect_baby_born_in_state_custody.htm l

SAN ANTONIO (Map, News) - A mother taken from a polygamist sect and being held as a minor in state custody gave birth Monday to a baby boy who was immediately taken into child-protective custody.

State officials acknowledged the mother may be an adult, and said they were trying to determine her true age. Since state officials raided the sect's West Texas ranch on April 3, child welfare officials have taken custody of all its children on the grounds that they were endangered by the sect's underage and polygamous spiritual marriages.

[mysteriew]

It does concern me that they may have women in protective custody who are thought to be minors but who are actually adults. Not so much concern for the women as concern for Texas.

If they have a woman in protective custody, if it is eventually determined that she is over 18, what are the legal ramifications?

[FlowerChild]

It does concern me that they may have women in protective custody who are thought to be minors but who are actually adults. Not so much concern for the women as concern for Texas.

If they have a woman in protective custody, if it is eventually determined that she is over 18, what are the legal ramifications?
None - the state believes her to be under 18 and pregnant and they err on the side of caution because the girl has no legitimate proof of age....like a LEGITIMATE BIRTH CERTIFICATE OR a LEGITIMATE SOCIAL SECURITY CARD/#.

Since SHE cannot PROVE that she is over 18 the state MUST keep her in custody until her age/ID can be established LEGALLY. The FLDS doesn't believe in filing birth certificates and getting social security numbers for their children (and those children DO grow up). The result is that without any way for CPS to establish this girl's age, if she LOOKS under 18 the burden of proof of age falls on the GIRL. Right now she obviously does not have the necessary documents to establish her identity or age. She is also pregnant and the CPS may have been keeping her in custody to insure she didn't "run" with her "celestial husband" and have the baby in another FLDS stronghold.

There has been no violation of this girl's rights because it is UP TO HER to prove who she is...and she can't because she grew up the the FLDS and likely has NO legal documentation of her age. All a NORMAL person would have to do is give a SS# or show a registered copy of their birth certificate from the state they were born in - this girl obviously has neither. And I DO SUSPECT some of the members DO HAVE fake documents - those might work for a quick "look" but I am sure LE has reviewed the documents presented and found many of them were forgeries or fraudulent.

The mothers of nursing babies are allowed to STAY (if the want) with their babies in a shelter - so even if this girl is over 18, she would probably stay anyway - for her baby. If she IS over 18 and doesn't agree to stay voluntarily then her child would be placed in foster care immediately.

MOST of the issues that have arisen from this raid could have been resolved almost immediately -- IF the FLDS permitted ALL it's members to have a registered Birth Certificate and apply for a Social Security Number. Then the authorities would have had MUCH of the information they needed about maternity and paternity and AGE of the children within a few days. The FLDS is kvetching about "injustices" and "false imprisonment" and it is their own FAULT many of these things are happening.

One minute WE are the bad guys and the next minute they are pleading with the President for help...and they can't even provide a SS# for most of the members? The FLDS talks out whatever side of their mouth is the most manipulative and gathers the most sympathy - but it isn't sincere OR truthful.

My Opinion

[mollymalone]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90L2KV80
"We were presented with credible evidence that this minor is, in fact, an adult," said CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.

She declined to say what the evidence was or how old the woman is. According to an FLDS spokesman, the new mother, Pamela Jeffs, is 18.

She was one of two pregnant sect members who state officials had said were minors. The other sect member, who gave birth to a son Monday, also may be an adult, state officials have said.

Both mothers are with their babies, who are in state custody.

[MCDRAW]

I couldn't care less about large families so long as they function in a healthy way supporting all children a part of their family. and can be financially supported by the parents of large families without 'bleeding the beast'. :furious:

but the large families displayed by the FLDS are in no way healthy at all.

IMO.


I came from a large family, we knew who our parents were, we knew our age, had birth certificates and social security numbers. So I agree with you, the FLDS do not appear to be healthy.

[Fairy1]

The authorities in Utah and Arizona have been using the soft approach with the FLDS for years, and it's gotten nowhere. It's only allowed the FLDS to proliferate and allowed for further abuses, and the abuses seem to be getting worse.

I will bet money that the FLDS members are significant campaign contributors for elected officials in both Utah and Arizona. And, I don't care what they say in the media....LDS/FLDS - the apple did NOT fall far from the tree.

[Fairy1]

I live in Las Vegas and the FLDS has been in the news a great deal since Warren Jeffs was on the run. Last night, I saw on the NBC national news broadcast, a couple who claim to be living out of their pick up truck while they attempt to regularly visit their 5 children who are supposedly in foster homes across the entire state of Texas. I couldn't help but wonder where this fellow's other "wives" and children were. More fake tears and feigned hardship. They are spinning, nothing more.

[Leila]

It does concern me that they may have women in protective custody who are thought to be minors but who are actually adults. Not so much concern for the women as concern for Texas.

If they have a woman in protective custody, if it is eventually determined that she is over 18, what are the legal ramifications?

I find this concerning too, not only from the legal perspective, but also the negative publicity this will generate.

Earlier today I checked out some newspaper sources and came across this article from the Salt Lake City Tribune. This is a very negative report on the Texas CPS and is generating a lot of commentary on the newspaper's website.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9238520

We all know the terrible conditions the FLDS women and children are subjected to within the FLDS communities. We know the crimes these people have committed. We know these men who've entered into "spiritual marriages" with young underage teenagers, should be charged with rape and suffer the consequences. We know the children deserve better than a life of servitude and fear. But it appears the FLDS have the resources to run a propaganda campaign.

[mysteriew]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIdMpRHjN4hpNKBhfYyAsR4DDo4QD90L2KV80
"We were presented with cred