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FlowerChild
04-30-2008, 08:16 PM
Fumarase Deficiency
Fifteen years ago, a strange-looking child suffering from severe physical maladies and acute retardation was brought into the office of Dr. Theodore Tarby.
Tarby's young patient was afflicted with an extremely rare disease called fumarase deficiency. "I had never seen a patient with it," Tarby says. "Right away I asked the parents if there were any other children with the same problem."
The parents said their daughter had cerebral palsy. Tarby asked them to bring the girl to him for an examination."As soon as I saw her, I knew she had the same thing as her brother," Tarby says.
By the late 1990s, Tarby and his team had discovered fumarase deficiency was occurring in the greatest concentration in the world among the fundamentalist Mormon polygamists of northern Arizona and southern Utah. Of even greater concern was the fact that the recessive gene that triggers the disease was rapidly spreading to thousands of individuals living in the community because of decades of inbreeding.

"We have and will have a continual output of children with this condition," Tarby says. "If you cross a Barlow and Jessop, you stand a high risk of getting this condition," Tarby says.

There is no cure for the disease, which impedes the body's ability to process food at the cellular level.

"This problem is going to get worse and worse and worse," predicts 40-year-old Isaac Wyler, another lifelong Colorado City resident who was excommunicated from the FLDS in January 2004. Wyler's ex-wife's sister has had two babies afflicted with fumarase deficiency. "Right now, we are just looking at the tip of the iceberg."
For more than 70 years, all marriages in the isolated towns have been arranged by the leader of the FLDS, a breakaway sect of the Salt Lake City-based Mormon Church. Marriages among first and second cousins have been common for decades in the community, where religious doctrine requires men to have at least three wives to gain eternal salvation. Only the FLDS prophet can arrange and perform polygamous marriages, and those marriages are taking place in a community in which almost everybody is related.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit/

FlowerChild
04-30-2008, 08:29 PM
Inbreeding. Consanguinity refers to the property of being from the same genetic lineage as another person. In that respect, consanguinity is the quality of being descended from the same ancestor as another person.

Some of the genetic disorders associated with inbreeding aka consanguineous marriage was, bronchial asthma, mental retardation, epilepsy and diabetes were significantly more common in offspring of the consanguineous than non- consanguineous couples.

A 5-year prospective study of 4,934 children of different ethnic groups has demonstrated a 3-fold increase of postneonatal mortality and childhood morbidity in the offspring of consanguineous Pakistani parents. Most of these families contained more than one consanguineous union, resulting in a mean inbreeding coefficient for their children of 0.0686. It is estimated that 60% of the mortality and severe morbidity of this group of children could be eliminated if inbreeding ceased. However consanguinity is much favoured in this minority group, and health education will have to be carefully and sensitively handled.

55 per cent of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins, resulting in an increasing rate of genetic defects and high rates of infant mortality.

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/02/british-muslim-inbreeding-causing.html

FlowerChild
04-30-2008, 08:35 PM
The lysosomal storage diseases are a group of over forty human genetic disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_disorder) that result from defects in lysosomal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysosome) function.

(E75) lipid storage disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_storage_disorder) (including Gaucher's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaucher%27s_disease) and Niemann-Pick diseases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niemann-Pick_disease))
(E75.0-E75.1) gangliosidosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangliosidosis) (including Tay-Sachs disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease))
(E75.2) leukodystrophies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leukodystrophy)
(E76.0) mucopolysaccharidoses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucopolysaccharidosis) (including Hunter syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_syndrome) and Hurler disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurler_disease))
(E77) glycoprotein storage disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycoproteinosis)
(E77.0-E77.1) mucolipidoses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucolipidosis)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysosomal_storage_disease

mysteriew
04-30-2008, 08:50 PM
I am getting a bit concerned because we aren't officially hearing about evidence of incest. I do hope that they are checking for that. Of course they may not have gotten a chance to look at the geneological info yet.

Leila
04-30-2008, 09:11 PM
I am getting a bit concerned because we aren't officially hearing about evidence of incest. I do hope that they are checking for that. Of course they may not have gotten a chance to look at the geneological info yet.

I think it's going to take some time. The children were only moved into foster care facilities within the week. Once they get comfortable with their surroundings, I think they'll be more inclined to open up with social workers. Given time, I think they'll be reporting physical and sexual abuse.

mysteriew
04-30-2008, 09:33 PM
I think it's going to take some time. The children were only moved into foster care facilities within the week. Once they get comfortable with their surroundings, I think they'll be more inclined to open up with social workers. Given time, I think they'll be reporting physical and sexual abuse.

But how much will the kids know about their geneology? They have said that some kids don't know who their birth mothers are, they get passed around and today bio daddy is this man, but daddy might be different tomorrow.

Info on the incest will have to come from the church records if they cannot get the mothers to tell. And I guess the church records are what are being reviewed right now. (Da Judge is reviewing them now, not the FLDS attorneys! :woohoo:)

mollymalone
05-01-2008, 01:01 AM
But how much will the kids know about their geneology? They have said that some kids don't know who their birth mothers are, they get passed around and today bio daddy is this man, but daddy might be different tomorrow.

Info on the incest will have to come from the church records if they cannot get the mothers to tell. And I guess the church records are what are being reviewed right now. (Da Judge is reviewing them now, not the FLDS attorneys! :woohoo:)The genealogy records, journals they found, and don't forget, Flora and Carolyn are related to many of these people as are others who left who can quote lineages in a heartbeat. I'm sure the authorities are getting plenty of help in that direction.

mysteriew
05-01-2008, 01:20 AM
FLDS attorneys are attributing the childrens broken bones to "brittle bone disease."

Would that be a genetic issue?

ETA: If you Google "brittle bone disease," this is on of the things that comes up.


What is osteogenesis imperfecta?

Osteogenesis imperfecta (OI) is the most common disease causing fractures in childhood. It also causes fractures in adults.

OI is a genetic disorder usually resulting from abnormalities of the genes that control the production of a protein called collagen; which is the main protein in bone and essential for its strength. The fragility of bone in OI is due to the collagen problems; it has nothing to do with the calcium part of bone, which is what shows up on X-rays.
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/brittlebones.htm

And according to the attorney, "several" of the kids have it.

mysteriew
05-01-2008, 01:52 AM
I noticed the attorney has said that "several" of the children had "brittle bone disease." I found the OI website and the info is interesting.

OI website
http://www.oif.org/site/PageServer?pagename=RES_Glossary

Prevalence of OI or "brittle bone disease" in the population is thought to be
1 in 20,000 births, including those diagnosed after birth.

http://www.oif.org/site/DocServer?docID=181

Leila
05-01-2008, 03:22 AM
But how much will the kids know about their geneology? They have said that some kids don't know who their birth mothers are, they get passed around and today bio daddy is this man, but daddy might be different tomorrow.

Info on the incest will have to come from the church records if they cannot get the mothers to tell. And I guess the church records are what are being reviewed right now. (Da Judge is reviewing them now, not the FLDS attorneys! :woohoo:)

The state of Texas seized a lot of records, including genealogical records. I would think that those records would be readily accessible as genealogy is considered a public record. They wouldn't be something that has to be reviewed by the judge.

As a genealogist with almost 30 years experience, I'm familiar with the LDS approved lineage charts and family group sheets. Of the two, the most beneficial to LE will be the family group sheets, as they will list husband and his data (including his parents), wife and her data (including her parents), and then list the children in chronological order with their date of birth, place of birth, date of marriage and to whom, and death date (if applicable). There would have to be a separate family group sheet for the husband and each of his wives. If the husband has 8 wives, there would be 8 family group sheets. LE would be able to verify which child belongs to the husband and which wife. There's spaces for 11 children on each family group sheet. There's also a space for "Husband's other wives" and "Wife's other husbands."

The one thing that may prove difficult is the commonality of names, as I'm sure there are a number of people within the FLDS with the same names. Hopefully, there won't be two with the same names who are the same age or near the same age.

FlowerChild
05-01-2008, 08:32 AM
The state of Texas seized a lot of records, including genealogical records. I would think that those records would be readily accessible as genealogy is considered a public record. They wouldn't be something that has to be reviewed by the judge.

As a genealogist with almost 30 years experience, I'm familiar with the LDS approved lineage charts and family group sheets. Of the two, the most beneficial to LE will be the family group sheets, as they will list husband and his data (including his parents), wife and her data (including her parents), and then list the children in chronological order with their date of birth, place of birth, date of marriage and to whom, and death date (if applicable). There would have to be a separate family group sheet for the husband and each of his wives. If the husband has 8 wives, there would be 8 family group sheets. LE would be able to verify which child belongs to the husband and which wife. There's spaces for 11 children on each family group sheet. There's also a space for "Husband's other wives" and "Wife's other husbands."

The one thing that may prove difficult is the commonality of names, as I'm sure there are a number of people within the FLDS with the same names. Hopefully, there won't be two with the same names who are the same age or near the same age.
There are about a dozen "families" who seem to pop up in EVERY group. Barlow, Jessop, Jeffs.....etc
According to what is already known probably 80% - 90% of the marriages are between cousins - including FIRST COUSINS. Men often marry sisters, making the kids of both as close as real siblings and yes, sometimes men marry their "step -daughters" who are also often cousins. - it's incestual on TWO levels.
The gene pool in the FLDS is quite small and despite the occasional addition of a "new" male from mainstream FLDS and OTHER polygamous groups, it seems that within a generation or two, that genetic diversity is canceled out by the continual repetition of the same few families.
According to the Fumarase expert, if you cross the Jessop and Barlow lines, Fumarase is almost guaranteed - at LEAST 25% of the kids WILL have it....and if you look at the relationships you'll see that probably half of the FLDS population is already a CLOSE cross between the Jessop and Barlow lines.

There is a genetic reason incest is BAD even once and the FLDS has been doing it for 100 years. Eventually - say within another 150 years - the FLDS will be gone - not because of the laws or the Govt intervention, but because genetically the group cannot survive. Eventually ALL the members will be so closely related that if they are fertile, ALL the children will carry some debilitating gene (physical and/or mental) or not survive infancy. Basically the Polygamous groups as they are now are genetic equivalent of roulette and the odds are getting worse very quickly with girls having their 1st child at 12 and women becoming great grandmothers at 36. Time is VERY compressed - a new generation every 15 years.

It's going to end up very confusing for the lay-person or a person with a casual interest. - but if you know ANYTHING about genetics, this is the ugly underbelly of the FLDS that goes FAR beyond child-brides and abuse (and will last MUCH MUCH LONGER).

My Opinion

Peculiar Petunia
05-01-2008, 10:18 AM
OI is autosomal dominant, meaning that normally there's a 50% chance of inheritance. If both parents have OI, it's 75%, but none of the men they've shown seem to show signs of the disease.
What sort of twisted person allows a trampoline in a group of children with brittle bone disease? Yikes! (Sorry, I can't wrap my mind around that choice of allowable toys.) It's like the leaders want to kill off the affected kids, if the brittle bone disease excuse is correct.
I agree with Flower Child--this cult will self-destruct.

Pepper
05-01-2008, 10:25 AM
There is a genetic reason incest is BAD even once and the FLDS has been doing it for 100 years. Eventually - say within another 150 years - the FLDS will be gone - not because of the laws or the Govt intervention, but because genetically the group cannot survive. Eventually ALL the members will be so closely related that if they are fertile, ALL the children will carry some debilitating gene (physical and/or mental) or not survive infancy. Basically the Polygamous groups as they are now are genetic equivalent of roulette and the odds are getting worse very quickly with girls having their 1st child at 12 and women becoming great grandmothers at 36. Time is VERY compressed - a new generation every 15 years.

It's going to end up very confusing for the lay-person or a person with a casual interest. - but if you know ANYTHING about genetics, this is the ugly underbelly of the FLDS that goes FAR beyond child-brides and abuse (and will last MUCH MUCH LONGER).

My Opinion

You are probably right, but the sad thing is that we aren't talking about lab rats. These are PEOPLE. This is about innocent CHILDREN. The whole thing makes me ill.

Floh
05-01-2008, 10:35 AM
You are probably right, but the sad thing is that we aren't talking about lab rats. These are PEOPLE. This is about innocent CHILDREN. The whole thing makes me sill.

They ARE going to be studied like lab rats though. you can bet on it.

Floh
05-01-2008, 10:36 AM
OI is autosomal dominant, meaning that normally there's a 50% chance of inheritance. If both parents have OI, it's 75%, but none of the men they've shown seem to show signs of the disease.
What sort of twisted person allows a trampoline in a group of children with brittle bone disease? Yikes! (Sorry, I can't wrap my mind around that choice of allowable toys.) It's like the leaders want to kill off the affected kids, if the brittle bone disease excuse is correct.
I agree with Flower Child--this cult will self-destruct.

Of course they do. Warren Jeffs' eugenics experiment. :(

Moe
05-01-2008, 10:42 AM
They ARE going to be studied like lab rats though. you can bet on it.
Sadly this is the only way to get to the bottom of this mess.

FlowerChild
05-01-2008, 10:44 AM
Well, they are aware of the issues (even tho many members are in denial) and yet they continue. Having more children by multiple wives and getting into the highest tier of heaven is MORE important than the health of future generations. What they are is SELFISH and self centered. Having children isn't about the children, it's ALL ABOUT THEM! The children (and to some degree the many wives) are only important as they relate to getting the FATHER into a "better heaven".

My Opinion

SewingDeb
05-01-2008, 11:22 AM
From NG transcript from last night. Nancy Grace interviewing Carolyn Jessop (author of Escape):

GRACE: You know, Carolyn, I was just thinking about my two twins and how I did a back flip when John David scratched his face with his fingernail, because it left a little scratch right here. And I was so worried about hurting him that I filed his nails because I didn`t want to cut them with a fingernail clipper.

And now I`m hearing your stories and about 41 broken bones. And you know, you don`t just dream up broken bones.

JESSOP: No.

GRACE: You see them on an X-ray. You can tell a bone has been fractured or broken in the past.

JESSOP: The other element here is this society has no genetic condition for brittle bones. I`ve never heard of that before. There is no such thing that exists in this community.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/30/ng.01.html

FlowerChild
05-01-2008, 01:48 PM
They can't just "say" the kids have brittle bones (or some condition that makes bones vulnerable) and have it be true. This will have to be verified and PROVEN medically/scientifically - and not by some FLDS Dr. either. We have many good Medical Schools and Research Facilities here in Texas and you can bet they will ALL stand in line to research and testify - the Good PR they would get for "helping children" is priceless.

Right now it appears TO ME that the FLDS is scrambling - throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the wall of public opinion and hoping something resonates or sticks. I feel certain the FLDS is in CYA mode - but they are getting hit from every direction because Texas obviously has someone pretty sharp working for CPS in the PR Dept. The judges and CPS aren't just sitting back and defending themselves, but playing some offense too. And here in Texas, it's unlikely that the mainstream Mormon Church is going to pull much weight with the legislature or politicians - certainly it's NOT LIKE NV, AZ and UT in that regard. I feel the prevalence of Mormon faithful in some western states has hindered the prosecution of the FLDS and other similar groups because its embarrassing to them and they fear being tarred themselves with the same broad "Mormon" brush. They don't want to associate mainstream LDS with the FLDS in any way and they feel "regular people" can't discriminate between the two (or don't want to). They have FOR YEARS gone by the rule that if they ignore the FLDS maybe it will just go away. Texas has no such worries or constraints and they frankly don't care WHO looks bad as this all shakes out. Short Creek didn't happen here so Texas did what UTAH, ARIZONA AND NEVADA have spent 50 years trying to AVOID doing. Stopped the FLDS COLD!

Perhaps NOW the FLDS genetic issues (affecting innocent children) due to inbreeding will get NATIONAL ATTENTION instead of being shoved into a closet (literally and figuratively) behind a walled compound.

My Opinion

southcitymom
05-01-2008, 01:57 PM
Sadly this is the only way to get to the bottom of this mess.

I agree, and it is heartbreaking.

mysteriew
05-01-2008, 02:15 PM
They can't just "say" the kids have brittle bones (or some condition that makes bones vulnerable) and have it be true. This will have to be verified and PROVEN medically/scientifically - and not by some FLDS Dr. either. We have many good Medical Schools and Research Facilities here in Texas and you can bet they will ALL stand in line to research and testify - the Good PR they would get for "helping children" is priceless.

Right now it appears TO ME that the FLDS is scrambling - throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the wall of public opinion and hoping something resonates or sticks. I feel certain the FLDS is in CYA mode - but they are getting hit from every direction because Texas obviously has someone pretty sharp working for CPS in the PR Dept. The judges and CPS aren't just sitting back and defending themselves, but playing some offense too. And here in Texas, it's unlikely that the mainstream Mormon Church is going to pull much weight with the legislature or politicians - certainly it's NOT LIKE NV, AZ and UT in that regard. I feel the prevalence of Mormon faithful in some western states has hindered the prosecution of the FLDS and other similar groups because its embarrassing to them and they fear being tarred themselves with the same broad "Mormon" brush. They don't want to associate mainstream LDS with the FLDS in any way and they feel "regular people" can't discriminate between the two (or don't want to). They have FOR YEARS gone by the rule that if they ignore the FLDS maybe it will just go away. Texas has no such worries or constraints and they frankly don't care WHO looks bad as this all shakes out. Short Creek didn't happen here so Texas did what UTAH, ARIZONA AND NEVADA have spent 50 years trying to AVOID doing. Stopped the FLDS COLD!

Perhaps NOW the FLDS genetic issues (affecting innocent children) due to inbreeding will get NATIONAL ATTENTION instead of being shoved into a closet (literally and figuratively) behind a walled compound.

My Opinion

But in this case, they have chosen a double edged sword to lay out and fall on. OI is considered a rare condition. So if they don't have it, it proves lying and a knowlege of their doing wrong. If it is true, then the fact and the concentration of the disease proves that the is due to the fact and consequences of incest in the compound.

You know when I heard the only toy allowed in the compound was a trampoline, I thought that was odd and weird. No toys but a trampoline is allowed.... Yes, I am wondering if perhaps this wasn't a "test" by Jeffs. A test for brittle bone disease.

Leila
05-01-2008, 02:32 PM
Two hundred years ago, it was quite common for cousins to marry and have children. As we became aware of the role of genetics in the furtherance of diseases and disabilities, states began to enact laws pertaining to who could marry. Today, every state has laws on the books regarding marriage between relatives. You cannot marry your brother, cousin, uncle, or anyone within a close genetic relationship.

Unfortunately, the FLDS children will be studied for their genetics as it pertains to incest and family intermarriage.

I agree that genetics will be the downfall of the FLDS civilization, but we can't wait for that to happen through the natural process. Imagine how difficult it would be if the FLDS were closely monitored by outside agencies and forced to adhere to strict policies.

Vegas Bride
05-02-2008, 12:01 AM
I was reading on one website about the flds and it was listing the history and said that Warren Jeffs married many of his father's wives including his own mother! Has anyone else heard of this?
Every day this whole mess just gets sicker and sicker.

VB

mysteriew
05-02-2008, 12:17 AM
I was reading on one website about the flds and it was listing the history and said that Warren Jeffs married many of his father's wives including his own mother! Has anyone else heard of this?
Every day this whole mess just gets sicker and sicker.

VB

We had discussed that he married all but two of his father's wives. But we weren't sure if he had married his mother or not.

mykodiak
05-02-2008, 07:27 AM
Or if he actually had sex with her. He's sick enough to do it...question is...is SHE?

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 01:15 PM
Or if he actually had sex with her. He's sick enough to do it...question is...is SHE?If she was raised the same, which is likely, whatever her own personal feelings about it she probably would do it for her own safety. However, it's my feeling that since she's one of the older women that gets taken on as a wife that she would be among those wives that are relegated to supporting him and reflecting his glory and nothing more. it seemed he was much more interested in the younger wives but I wouldn't put anything past him, especially since he was intent upon showing everyone, including his mother that HE was the one in charge.

southcitymom
05-02-2008, 01:33 PM
If she was raised the same, which is likely, whatever her own personal feelings about it she probably would do it for her own safety. However, it's my feeling that since she's one of the older women that gets taken on as a wife that she would be among those wives that are relegated to supporting him and reflecting his glory and nothing more. it seemed he was much more interested in the younger wives but I wouldn't put anything past him, especially since he was intent upon showing everyone, including his mother that HE was the one in charge.

She might also do it because incest was a common way of life for their religious beliefs and was handed down from generation to generation with the Bible used to back it up. Like any other behavior, if you see it enough and it is practiced enough by those around you, you will come to perceive it as normal - in this case, perhaps, even as righteous.

Incest is repugnant to most of us because its "taboo" has been drilled into our consciousness over the years. The FLDS may have had a completely different viewpoint drilled into theirs.

mysteriew
05-02-2008, 01:37 PM
If she was raised the same, which is likely, whatever her own personal feelings about it she probably would do it for her own safety. However, it's my feeling that since she's one of the older women that gets taken on as a wife that she would be among those wives that are relegated to supporting him and reflecting his glory and nothing more. it seemed he was much more interested in the younger wives but I wouldn't put anything past him, especially since he was intent upon showing everyone, including his mother that HE was the one in charge.

Actually it has crossed my mind to wonder if perhaps his mother might have been part of the reason Jeffs is as warped as he is. A young woman whose 'husband' moved onto a newer woman or women, being neglected, craving attention- maybe even craving power. Could she, would she have turned to her son to fill the space?

Floh
05-02-2008, 01:38 PM
Actually it has crossed my mind to wonder if perhaps his mother might have been part of the reason Jeffs is as warped as he is. A young woman whose 'husband' moved onto a newer woman or women, being neglected, craving attention- maybe even craving power. Could she, would she have turned to her son to fill the space?

Whoa! OMG! :eek:

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 01:49 PM
She might also do it because incest was a common way of life for their religious beliefs and was handed down from generation to generation with the Bible used to back it up. Like any other behavior, if you see it enough and it is practiced enough by those around you, you will come to perceive it as normal - in this case, perhaps, even as righteous.

Incest is repugnant to most of us because its "taboo" has been drilled into our consciousness over the years. The FLDS may have had a completely different viewpoint drilled into theirs.Absolutely. She would perceive it as normal. Rulon Jeffs fostered the idea that he would live forever and reportedly his wives were shocked that he didn't. Imagine being taught that for most of your life that he's a god on earth, that he'll live forever and you beside him, and then he dies and all of a sudden your son says you're MY wife now. Even if she perceives this as normal there has to be some angst over this, although they're taught never to express it.

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 02:07 PM
Actually it has crossed my mind to wonder if perhaps his mother might have been part of the reason Jeffs is as warped as he is. A young woman whose 'husband' moved onto a newer woman or women, being neglected, craving attention- maybe even craving power. Could she, would she have turned to her son to fill the space?

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchentable/msg040039125187.html?7Rulon Jeffs was an FLDS prophet (their words, not mine) for his entire life and a more abusive man you'll never know. He is Warren Jeff's father. (On the side, and the woman on Dr Phil confirmed this, Warren Jeff's sisters were known to be vicious and abusive mothers, disciplining their children with beatings and emotional abuse as well.)

Her mother (Jeff's sister, bred, born and raised in polygamy) took her children and ran many years ago.
--------------
http://www.amw.com/fugitives/video_photos.cfm?id=33750
Warren Jeffs' own half brother Ward Jeffs says Jeffs would take advantage of his position as father's favorite to engage in sexual indulgences and activitys with boys, with girls, young girls, it didn't seem to matter. "If you tell on me and you know what Daddy will do to you." Warren stuck to daddy.
He got put through college which was rare, rare out there. He was fascinated with Hitler books, obsessed with the power and control."

I'm trying to find the link/article that stated that Warren Jeffs almost died as a baby and as a result he became his father's favorite, grooming him for the "priesthood" etc. Since their way of doing things requires the biological mothers not to show favoritism or love towards their own children, and the children are to be rasied by multiple mothers, I'm doubtful that his mother would turn to him to fill the space. As we've heard the men rule and it's possibly unlikely that Warren would have turned to her as she as a mere woman would have no power in that group. He stuck close to Rulon from all accounts.


Edited to add: If the neice and Jeffs sister and brother are to believed other family members are violent and abusive. Now, was that because of nature or nuture?

mysteriew
05-02-2008, 02:21 PM
Not saying it is fact, I'm just saying I wondered. The other siblings may be vicious, but that doesn't mean they have sexual perversions. But it seems that Jeffs does. Raped by his father? Probably. But we have heard from other households that sometimes favoritism of their own children does exist, esp. among senior wives... it is just something that they don't want to come to the alleged father's attention.

Love is a basic human need. If a woman doesn't get it from her husband, she will look for it among others around her, including her children. With the sister wives there is unexpressed jealousy and rivalry. So that leaves the kids. How does a woman forbidden to show favoritism and raised in a sexually charged atmosphere show her child love?

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 02:29 PM
Not saying it is fact, I'm just saying I wondered. The other siblings may be vicious, but that doesn't mean they have sexual perversions. But it seems that Jeffs does. Raped by his father? Probably. But we have heard from other households that sometimes favoritism of their own children does exist, esp. among senior wives... it is just something that they don't want to come to the alleged father's attention.

Love is a basic human need. If a woman doesn't get it from her husband, she will look for it among others around her, including her children. With the sister wives there is unexpressed jealousy and rivalry. So that leaves the kids. How does a woman forbidden to show favoritism and raised in a sexually charged atmosphere show her child love?If she doesn't want to be beaten, she doesn't. I'm sure there's some sort of favoritism going on when possible.
If it's true that Jeffs almost died as a baby and Rulon was attached to him, he might have allowed the mother to have a little more to do with him than would otherwise be allowed, but from what I've read of Rulon...I doubt he was any kinder to her than anyone else, but perhaps she managed to find time to be with him.

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 03:05 PM
"Jeff's mother and other Flds members see him weekly and attend his hearings." I suspect she's among the "trusted" women in the sect and her visits might indicate that they share some affection.

FlowerChild
05-02-2008, 03:12 PM
Start with Rulon Jeffs, add a mother who was 1 of 40, mix in the brainwashing and isolation of the FLDS and add a dash of complete unquestioned power and what comes out of the oven? A man who was sickly as a child, not physically strong, and grew up unattractive and wimpy but with a growing power of his own and with no need to be anything more "human" because Daddy was hand-picking his child brides from the whole FLDS - his young wives were handed to Warren, along with the mantle of power of FLDS "Prophet-hood". It was a recipe for a twisted, cruel, egomaniac sociopathic man who cares for nothing or no-one outside himself and his own schemes, perversions and power.


Rulon Jeffs "created" Warren in his own image - but as warped as Rulon was, Warren is worse...Warren knows right from wrong (he is very smart and intuitive and manipulative) but he doesn't believe the rules (any rules) apply to HIM - basically he is spoiled AND sociopathic.

And just think - there is ANOTHER future leader working his way thru the FLDS ranks right now - Heaven Help the members of the FLDS....

My Opinion

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 09:14 PM
Well, the below may be in many of the cases, but Jeffs is unpredictable and a control freak.

http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/the_experts_corner/index.html
Brooke Adams: There are a few men who have many, many wives” I call them mega-families” but it is far more common for a plural family to consist of a man and two or three women, with about 20 to 30 children. I've been told that some of these men with really big families organize outings with their children by age range. All the 10-year-olds get together and go do something with dad, for instance.

Warren Jeffs is said to have a huge number of wives, too, as did his father. But in the Jeffs' case, many of those are wives only in the caretaker sense, not in real, procreative marriages.

mysteriew
05-02-2008, 11:04 PM
Well, the below may be in many of the cases, but Jeffs is unpredictable and a control freak.

http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/the_experts_corner/index.html
Brooke Adams: There are a few men who have many, many wives” I call them mega-families” but it is far more common for a plural family to consist of a man and two or three women, with about 20 to 30 children. I've been told that some of these men with really big families organize outings with their children by age range. All the 10-year-olds get together and go do something with dad, for instance.

Warren Jeffs is said to have a huge number of wives, too, as did his father. But in the Jeffs' case, many of those are wives only in the caretaker sense, not in real, procreative marriages.


I have to confess, this seems supportive of my theory that Jeffs is a closet pedo that is attracted to boys. How better to hide the fact that he is a pedo than by many wives- most of whom are caretaker wives. Sort of like the old days when a closet gay guy might marry to hide his sexual inclinations.

Was it Jeffs who declared that the "holy underwear" was to be worn during sex?

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 11:10 PM
I have to confess, this seems supportive of my theory that Jeffs is a closet pedo that is attracted to boys. How better to hide the fact that he is a pedo than by many wives- most of whom are caretaker wives. Sort of like the old days when a closet gay guy might marry to hide his sexual inclinations.

Was it Jeffs who declared that the "holy underwear" was to be worn during sex?No, that has been something that was dictated over time by various leaders.

That's true, in fact his brother Ward Jeffs stated on a video clip at AMW, that Warren used his power to indulge in his sexual activities with boys, girls, young girls, it didn't seem to matter.

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 11:14 PM
Back to the genetic issues, it's crazy that the doc at the ranch, Barlow, would come out and make statements about the bone disease when there are already statistics out there that show his comments to be lies.

mysteriew
05-02-2008, 11:25 PM
Back to the genetic issues, it's crazy that the doc at the ranch, Barlow, would come out and make statements about the bone disease when there are already statistics out there that show his comments to be lies.

What statistics is that?

FlowerChild
05-02-2008, 11:52 PM
I have to confess, this seems supportive of my theory that Jeffs is a closet pedo that is attracted to boys. How better to hide the fact that he is a pedo than by many wives- most of whom are caretaker wives. Sort of like the old days when a closet gay guy might marry to hide his sexual inclinations.

Was it Jeffs who declared that the "holy underwear" was to be worn during sex?
While the FLDS Undergarment is more "extensive" than in the mainstream LDS, ALL married LDS members are supposed to wear a shorter, less restrictive (like shorty pajamas) undergarment - and yes, many LDS members wear theirs during sex as well - it's felt to be "protective" in nature. ALL the FLDS does is make the undergarment cover more (more like REAL long underwear) and make ALL members wear it 24/7 including the children.

The undergarment is from mainstream LDS, the FLDS just took it to the extreme - like they seem to do with a LOT of things. And in mainstream LDS, you only HAVE to start wearing the undergarment when you marry. If you look closely at a married Mormon man or woman, you can often see the outline of the undergarment under their clothing and since it goes on UNDER every other clothing item, it does restrict them to very modest attire (so as not to "show" the any part of the undergarment). Ladies in particular can find it difficult - no sleeveless clothing, no swimsuits, no cleavage, no shorter shorts etc.

The FLDS has turned it into a fabric chastity belt and made it SO restrictive that the poor women MUST wear those long-sleeved, buttoned to the chin, ill fitting, down to the ankles dresses with PANTS underneath so as NOT to show their undergarment (the pants under the dress are so as to not show the undergarment if the dress lifts above the ankles by accident).

It's one of the tenets of the LDS faith I find most odd, but hey, each to their own, I just couldn't (wouldn't) wear it, and I am not a person who dresses in a revealing way. I am probably equally well covered 90% of the time anyway but I do wear tank tops, shorts, swimsuits and things like that... I live in Texas - the land of 105 every day for 3 months of the year and sleeveless tops are almost required casual wear. Those poor FLDS folks must be VERY heat tolerant - it's got to be unbearable working outdoors in that many clothes (and layers) when it's 105 out.

My Opinion

mollymalone
05-02-2008, 11:58 PM
What statistics is that?I was rereading your post about OI, and if Barlow is saying that that many of the children have brittle bone disease and yet medical exams show that's not the case, I mean, maybe I'm muddled here and need to reread it again, but the statistics don't match what he's saying. There's been boys who've suffered broken bones while operating heavy equipment, and some of them were teen or pre-teen, but CPS is saying they were very young children. What's the odds that 41 children would have OI in one segment of the population?

mollymalone
05-03-2008, 12:00 AM
Flowerchild, I dress fairly modestly but I know I couldn't tolerate wearing that. Can you imagine going through menopause and hot flashes wearing the extreme version??

mysteriew
05-03-2008, 12:17 AM
I was rereading your post about OI, and if Barlow is saying that that many of the children have brittle bone disease and yet medical exams show that's not the case, I mean, maybe I'm muddled here and need to reread it again, but the statistics don't match what he's saying. There's been boys who've suffered broken bones while operating heavy equipment, and some of them were teen or pre-teen, but CPS is saying they were very young children. What's the odds that 41 children would have OI in one segment of the population?

I haven't seen where CPS has either verified or denied the OI. Yes, the statistics show that it is an extremely rare condition. But it is a genetic disease and if it was introduced into the genetic pool, the alleged incest would give them a higher rate of OI. Since the FLDS allegedly didn't report things to the public health department, then any inflicted here wouldn't be counted in the overall statistics.

And it is possible. The word got out about the fumerase (sp) disease and medical doctors were asking questions about why the FLDS has such a high rate. So if/once the OI was found in the FLDS population, I think it is likely they would try to hide it.

Basically I think it is one of those wait and see things. Yes, it is possible they have it. But yes, it could also be a lie. And yes, it could be a case of malpractice- a doctor who doesn't know what he is doing. If he set a bone and it didn't heal correctly, he could blame it on OI. His patient's parents aren't likely to get a second opinion.

FlowerChild
05-03-2008, 12:17 AM
Flowerchild, I dress fairly modestly but I know I couldn't tolerate wearing that. Can you imagine going through menopause and hot flashes wearing the extreme version??

All those clothes and all that HAIR - OH MY! And I know 'bout hot flashes - and even for a cold natured person like me - well I think I'd be passing out daily with heat stroke! They'd have to give me a job in the walk-in freezer! It seems unbearable - and I see it as just another way to control and "punish", and subjugate women while removing any power they might gain from their appearance. So a pretty one doesn't stand out, you have to make all woman really ugly.

My Opinion

AlwaysShocked
05-03-2008, 01:15 AM
I don't know much about DNA, so I have the following questions for anyone who knows:

Since Warren Jeffs is in prison, his DNA is on file, right? When the DNA results come back in on all of the children, if he is the father of any of them, it can be determined by comparing to his DNA, right?

On the 462 children - whether DNA is or is not available from either parent, the DNA of each of them can be compared to all the others. Would that determine which of the children have the same father? Which have the same mother?

I think the reason you don't see any of the men is that they have run away to hide somewhere so that nobody can get their DNA. I also think it is going to turn out that probably 5 or 10 men fathered all of the 462 kids.

The TV footage of the crying women, designed to garner public sympathy, is having the opposite effect on some of us. They set my teet on edge every time I see the footage. Espeically the uni-brow girl.

The crying mothers may have gotten public sympathy in 1953 during the Short Creek raid, but it is a different time and place all these years later.
The physical and sexual abuse of children will not be tolerated in the name of "religion" no matter how many women in long dresses stand around and cry!

Last but not least, has anyone but me noticed how a lot of the women look alike? There is one shot with about 10 or so of them sitting there in two rows in blue dresses. Look at their noses, look at their foreheads.

SeekingJana
05-03-2008, 01:34 AM
I'm not sure I am saying this exactly correctly, so if I am not, please be gentle. I know what I need to ask, but it is so strange to me that it is hard to find the words.

One of the many things which puzzles me about the FLDS vs the LDS is the disparity of education of at least the valued members, the males.
I do not want to stereotype but all the LDS members I have known who are in the workplace have a high level of education and an extremely productive work ethic. They stand out because of their excellence in many places I have worked... One only had to pay attention for a bit to realize that they were LDS because of the no caffeine, calling each other Brother and Sister, etc..( The LDS women I knew were past child-rearing age, the men were of all ages).

Now, to the FLDS.
WHY are the FLDS men against the younger men, at least, getting educations? How exactly do they support their communal style of living? Do they recruit wealthy men into the promise of virginal brides forever more, then empty their bank accounts? Exactly how are they self-supporting with so many members and no education to produce skilled workers?

The LDS do not believe in social welfare programs. They have storehouses and canneries and clothing storage facilites, furniture, housing, you name it for members in time of temporary need. And I know it is temporary, because of their work ethic and personal ethics and church mandate to take care of their families and personal needs so well. Mormons are the best prepared people on the planet for food shortages if they practice the Word of Wisdom and have a year's supply of food for each family member.

It is a basic tenet that every society which has flourished has increased in knowledge and wisdom from generation to generation. The flow of education and learning does NOT go backwards in civilized societies. In today's society in industrialized nations, this means that children go to school, from kindergarten through 4 years of college, at least. Education has made millionaires out of paupers, has created scientists and fostered brillance in all disciplines and arts. Education has created lives of equity and equality for those who started out as disadvantaged.

Why are the male FLDS children and teenagers not valued as the future leaders?
Why do the male FLDS children not receive formal education? I can wrap my mind around the sexual deviancy a bit better because of everything I have read here at WS and in the news, etc. Deprativy is rampant in our world, whether in a relgious cult or a man who locks his daughter in a closet and she bears his seven children over many years.. We all have read the sickness.

One thing that I have not seen addressed, and I mean NO disrespect, but if Warren Jeffs had the early physical problems he is said to have, and if he has propogated all these incestuous families under his wing, then isn't there a possiblity that a great percentage of the third and fourth generation children who were taken from the compound are mentally retarded or otherwise mentally handicapped, as can certainly rapidly occur with the genetic Fumarase deficiency?
Is it legal for the state of Texas to test the chidren's mental capabilites and IQ?

I have read statements several times from Texas CPS workers that " These children could not survive in the outside world", which now, after reading this thread about genetic diseases, causes me to think that they do not mean cannot adapt due to cultural differences.
Perhaps they are referring to what they see but we cannot--- that they lack the mental capacity for learning, which is necessary for survival of the individual.

It would maybe partially explain why the children are used and abused, and not even given individual identities by human beings who gave them life.. they are expected to die.
Maybe so many children die from disease that this generation of adults has been told not to bond with their children? I know of no other civilization which does not and has not valued its offspring. Animals will abandon a deformed or inactive offspring. It seems that the FLDS operate on an animalistic level rather than a humanistic level.
Is it possible that many of the FLDS children are deemed unworthy of basic loving because the genetic diseases have caused physical and mental problems? That they are deemed to be deficient in the eyes of the males who produced them and are given to the women to deal with? IF a percentage of them do have an inborn error of metabolism, which the fumarase deficiency is, then mental abilities are affected very early in life. If they have Osteogenesis Imperfecta then they are not able to perform daily tasks or bear children. Read up on it. There are degrees of bone involvement, but if it is the most severe form where both parents have the gene, then there's no way the female children with the disease could bear a child, if she lived to the age of puberty. All of this is so foreign and certainly repugnant to me, but I am trying to understand how any sort of closed sect can survive if the male children, at least, are not given advantages, status, education..

Maybe the genetic diseases and deficiencies have been problems in polygamous cults for a longer time than we can imagine due to the secrecy. Everything about them is secretive because of the law-breaking polygamy.
I don't know what the situation is with the children and women in Texas, and it's probably something we will not know due to the HiPAA act, but someone knows something.. the women who left know.
If you are interested in the FLDS cult, I would love to read your opinion based on what is written here, and what has been officially stated by Tx CPS about the very young women and the children not being able to survive outside their native environment.

Maria

mysteriew
05-03-2008, 01:50 AM
AlwaysShocked, I don't know what criteria Utah uses on collecting DNA. In some states it is only sex offenders and violent crimes who give their DNA, in other states they collect DNA on anyone who has committed a felony. But yes, if they have his DNA, and if Utah agrees to give it up they can compare his DNA to all of the children.

I would assume (which really means a guess) that if they receive a DNA from a male FLDS they will compare it to all the kids since they have had so much trouble with lying about parentage.

As far as them all looking alike, many of them are thought to have the same or close genetic heiritage. In other words, common genes which would cause certain traits to show up in all of them.

mollymalone
05-03-2008, 02:10 AM
Some articles have commented upon the high foreheads and ruddy faces and those they say are a result of inbreeding of close relatives.

If the authorities in Texas need Jeffs DNA a court order could achieve that.

SeekingJana, the reason they don't allow higher education for either boys or girls is that knowledge, education empowers a person. In addition, the boys are competition for the older geezers. If a young boy is paying court to a young girl his age, the older guy with umpteen wives isn't going to be as appealing. So the older men remove the younger so they have a clear field. More girls for them, none for the boys, except for those they groom to take over once they're doddering or in the grave.

There are those who left the FLDS with very little education who have gone on to regain their education by attending high school or college and have done very well. Those who left are closely related to those in Texas as well as those left in Colorado City and Hilldale.

mysteriew
05-03-2008, 02:18 AM
I'm not sure I am saying this exactly correctly, so if I am not, please be gentle. I know what I need to ask, but it is so strange to me that it is hard to find the words.

One of the many things which puzzles me about the FLDS vs the LDS is the disparity of education of at least the valued members, the males.
I do not want to stereotype but all the LDS members I have known who are in the workplace have a high level of education and an extremely productive work ethic. They stand out because of their excellence in many places I have worked... One only had to pay attention for a bit to realize that they were LDS because of the no caffeine, calling each other Brother and Sister, etc..( The LDS women I knew were past child-rearing age, the men were of all ages).

Now, to the FLDS.
WHY are the FLDS men against the younger men, at least, getting educations? How exactly do they support their communal style of living? Do they recruit wealthy men into the promise of virginal brides forever more, then empty their bank accounts? Exactly how are they self-supporting with so many members and no education to produce skilled workers?

The LDS do not believe in social welfare programs. They have storehouses and canneries and clothing storage facilites, furniture, housing, you name it for members in time of temporary need. And I know it is temporary, because of their work ethic and personal ethics and church mandate to take care of their families and personal needs so well. Mormons are the best prepared people on the planet for food shortages if they practice the Word of Wisdom and have a year's supply of food for each family member.

It is a basic tenet that every society which has flourished has increased in knowledge and wisdom from generation to generation. The flow of education and learning does NOT go backwards in civilized societies. In today's society in industrialized nations, this means that children go to school, from kindergarten through 4 years of college, at least. Education has made millionaires out of paupers, has created scientists and fostered brillance in all disciplines and arts. Education has created lives of equity and equality for those who started out as disadvantaged.

Why are the male FLDS children and teenagers not valued as the future leaders?
Why do the male FLDS children not receive formal education? I can wrap my mind around the sexual deviancy a bit better because of everything I have read here at WS and in the news, etc. Deprativy is rampant in our world, whether in a relgious cult or a man who locks his daughter in a closet and she bears his seven children over many years.. We all have read the sickness.

One thing that I have not seen addressed, and I mean NO disrespect, but if Warren Jeffs had the early physical problems he is said to have, and if he has propogated all these incestuous families under his wing, then isn't there a possiblity that a great percentage of the third and fourth generation children who were taken from the compound are mentally retarded or otherwise mentally handicapped, as can certainly rapidly occur with the genetic Fumarase deficiency?
Is it legal for the state of Texas to test the chidren's mental capabilites and IQ?

I have read statements several times from Texas CPS workers that " These children could not survive in the outside world", which now, after reading this thread about genetic diseases, causes me to think that they do not mean cannot adapt due to cultural differences.
Perhaps they are referring to what they see but we cannot--- that they lack the mental capacity for learning, which is necessary for survival of the individual.

It would maybe partially explain why the children are used and abused, and not even given individual identities by human beings who gave them life.. they are expected to die.
Maybe so many children die from disease that this generation of adults has been told not to bond with their children? I know of no other civilization which does not and has not valued its offspring. Animals will abandon a deformed or inactive offspring. It seems that the FLDS operate on an animalistic level rather than a humanistic level.
Is it possible that many of the FLDS children are deemed unworthy of basic loving because the genetic diseases have caused physical and mental problems? That they are deemed to be deficient in the eyes of the males who produced them and are given to the women to deal with? IF a percentage of them do have an inborn error of metabolism, which the fumarase deficiency is, then mental abilities are affected very early in life. If they have Osteogenesis Imperfecta then they are not able to perform daily tasks or bear children. Read up on it. There are degrees of bone involvement, but if it is the most severe form where both parents have the gene, then there's no way the female children with the disease could bear a child, if she lived to the age of puberty. All of this is so foreign and certainly repugnant to me, but I am trying to understand how any sort of closed sect can survive if the male children, at least, are not given advantages, status, education..

Maybe the genetic diseases and deficiencies have been problems in polygamous cults for a longer time than we can imagine due to the secrecy. Everything about them is secretive because of the law-breaking polygamy.
I don't know what the situation is with the children and women in Texas, and it's probably something we will not know due to the HiPAA act, but someone knows something.. the women who left know.
If you are interested in the FLDS cult, I would love to read your opinion based on what is written here, and what has been officially stated by Tx CPS about the very young women and the children not being able to survive outside their native environment.

Maria

This is all in my opinion but...
As far as education, first of all education often leads to thinking, which might lead to questioning. Also, the more time kids spend in a classroom, the less time they are able to work and earn money. They do some government work and own industries that bring money in.

They not only don't recruit, they don't allow outsiders to join. They believe their blood is "pure" because it descends from the prophet and they plan for it to stay that way.

Certain of the males are probably valued as future leaders. But they must be totally obedient to the prophet. They cannot question. They must work and earn their way to the top. Some of the most obedient may receive further education- if that person/profession is needed to fill a need for the church.

There is documentation of fumerase (sp) disease in the FLDS. But we have all questioned why we didn't see it in the children on TV. One of the former FLDS women has said there is a baby cemetary in Utah and she has allegedly said that they have a high rate of infant death and that it isn't unknown for babies who aren't perfect at birth to be killed. But so far that hasn't been officially verified.

As far as why the children couldn't adapt to our society, I didn't see the quote. But all kids who are taken from an abusive environment have challenges. Adjustments that they have to make. But with these kids, they have no other experiences to compare a new life to. Their friends lived in the same type of household they did. Their other family members also. They are taught total belief in the FLDS and the prophet. They aren't taught to make independent decisions. They are taught they don't have individual value other than their value to the church. They are taught to fear outsiders, even outsiders offering help. They aren't educated, so it is hard for them to get anything other than low paying jobs. If they are kicked out at a very young age, they may not even be able to get that low paying job. Since they know nothing about the outside, they don't even know where to go to get outside help and they are too afraid to ask for it.

The only comparisons I can make is it is like putting them up on a pole, and that pole is the church. If you jerk the pole out, what happens to them?