Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #2

[RR0004]

Oh, Suzi...thanks so much for posting that. I read that a while back, but didn't want to open that can of worms. The sudents were p.o. that LE was denied entry.

[SuziQ]

Collegeville and Mpls are about 77 miles apart.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=&saddr=Collegeville,+Minnesota&daddr=minneapolis&sll=45.59265,-94.36787&sspn=0.081562,0.160675&ie=UTF8&ll=45.290335,-93.827545&spn=1.311983,2.570801&z=9

[RR0004]

Luthersmama...how far is the school from Philadelphia? I don't think this kid driving around in the type of car he was had robbery in mind? Do you?

[RR0004]

Also...do you think it will ever be revealed what "torture" Chris endured? Has there been any suggestion that the abduction was sexually motivated?

[SeriouslySearching]

Attempted abduction of male Swarthmore student:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6117371

http://www.delcotimes.com:80/WebApp/appmanager/JRC/Daily?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pg_article&r21.pgpath=%2FDCT%2FNews&r21.content=%2FDCT%2FNews%2FTopStoryList_Story_199 2692

Chiang is a Temple U. Dental student:

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080503_Temple_student_charged_with_kidnapping_tr y.htmlTemple is 21.3 miles/35 minutes from Swarthmore. This case is very curious to me. I don't think robbery was a motive here for some reason. He could have cracked the kid over the head and taken his wallet.

I found this statement to be quite interesting: The defendant, Tom T. Chiang, 28, of the 6100 block of Henry Avenue, was driving a tan, four-door 1997 Lexus when he stopped the student walking from the McCabe Library shortly after 2 a.m., and asked for directions to the president’s house, according to an affidavit of probable cause for his arrest.

I don't know why it stands out to me that he was asking for directions to the president's house. This ruse could mean that Chiang wanted this kid to associate him in someway to the president perhaps in an attempt to gain credibility to get him in the car?

While I don't know if this is connected in any way, it should be looked at by the two detectives as a possibility. Chiang fits exactly the type I have in mind for the drowning cases.

Thanks for posting this, Luthersmama. :)

[SuziQ]

Oh, Suzi...thanks so much for posting that. I read that a while back, but didn't want to open that can of worms. The sudents were p.o. that LE was denied entry.


A slow newsday or a lull in info is always a good time for me to go back and review. Which is what I'm doing today. The SJU Monastary has always bothered me greatly.

[SuziQ]

More on St Johns Monastary

http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_2.html

December 9, 2004

St. John's website officially advises that the character of the university is shaped by the Benedictine communities that founded the college: "By living according to Saint Benedict's Rule, members of the monastic communities cultivate love of God, neighbor and self through the art of listening, worship and balanced, humane living. They challenge students to embrace these values as well." (http://www.csbsju.edu/studentlife/spirituality.htm)

St. John's has also challenged the father of a student who, two years ago, mysteriously disappeared after attending a party on campus. The loving, balanced, humane folks at the university demanded Brian Guimond stay off their property or face arrest from Stearns County authorities.

Not that the Order of St. Benedict had anything to hide, mind you -- it's just that Mr. Guimond was upsetting all that listening, worshipping and embracing when he'd repeatedly visit the school looking for answers about his missing child, Josh.

Michael Hemmesch, a spokesperson for St. John's, insisted the flesh was willing. "We have continued to discuss, through Mr. Guimond's attorney, an out-of-court settlement," he said, "or a resolution to this matter out of court." Unfortunately, the spirit at SJU was weak and quickly worn-out by Brian Guimond's dogged determination. For a year, the school has held a restraining order against him.

Just as St. John's was about to have their loving values reviewed in a court of law, announcement came that a settlement had been reached.

Of course, the devil's in the details.

Josh Guimond's dad says the on-going dispute with the Order of St. Benedict about his visits to St. John's has ended. He says he now feels there is no legal order preventing him from going to the campus to continue the private investigation of his son's disappearance.

Stearns County Sheriff, John Sanner, feels differently. Sanner told reporters, as far as he's concerned, if Brian Guimond goes to the college campus without an escort to look for answers about his missing boy -- he will promptly be put in jail.

Having carefully cultivated the art of listening, I'm sure St. John's University can hear concerned parents in Stearns County, in the state of Minnesota, and all over the country saying, "IF THAT WERE MY CHILD -- NOTHING AND NOBODY COULD STOP ME FROM LOOKING FOR HIM."

"You don't just vanish into thin air," said Brian Guimond. "Somebody knows something."

Whether somebody on that campus is hiding information about the missing student has yet to be determined, but based on the treatment Mr. Guimond has endured -- God knows -- something is terribly wrong at St. John's University.

[RR0004]

Absolutely vital info, though. I thought there was a restraining order against the dad (?). Whether there was or wasn't, the school's/church's attitude seems a bit extreme to me.

[DeltaDawn]

Question : If you suffocated someone then put them in water , would it appeared they were drowned during the autopsy?

[SeriouslySearching]

Also...do you think it will ever be revealed what "torture" Chris endured? Has there been any suggestion that the abduction was sexually motivated?There are all forms of torture. In the clips I found of people acting out the game Manhunt, one showed a scene of a college aged boy being bound and held in a building while being taunted about how they were going to kill him.

I don't think sexual abuse can be ruled out completely as the water would wash away DNA evidence (that is only providing there were no physical markings to indicate assault). I just don't feel sex had anything to do with it tho.

[SeriouslySearching]

Question : If you suffocated someone then put them in water , would it appeared they were drowned during the autopsy?No. You would have definite petechial hemorrhaging in the eyes which is not present in drownings.

[DeltaDawn]

I live near West Chester. I am confident that the burglaries are just people looking for drugs and/or money and/or stuff to sell to buy drugs. The rapes have mostly been date rapes. Not that this is a good thing, but I don't think we should expect any escalation.

The "spree" that has hit the news is really just a matter of enhanced reporting by the University of off-campus crimes against students. The other thing going on is that the locals have been complaining more and more about bad behavior of students - public urination, noise, parties etc.. I think the University is trying to point out that the students are often victims rather than perpetrators. The rate of crime is about the same as always. If the economy doesn't pick up, there will be more burglaries targeting students.


Thanks Luthersmamma, my neice attends college in West Chester, she's an arts major. I worry about her though, she's only 18 and has lived in a small town most of her life..she' a very sweet trusting individual.

[RR0004]

I'm no expert, but if they were already dead then they wouldn't find water in the lungs (active respiration would be necessary for that...if I'm not mistaken).

PS- I've thought the same thing. But, IMO, the "holding the legs up theory" may be a good working theory instead.

[DeltaDawn]

No. You would have definite petechial hemorrhaging in the eyes which is not present in drownings.

Thanks SS..I hope the docs looked for that during autopsy.

[SeriouslySearching]

Absolutely vital info, though. I thought there was a restraining order against the dad (?). Whether there was or wasn't, the school's/church's attitude seems a bit extreme to me.I don't find it extreme actually. I am sure his father, in a desperate attempt to find out any information, probably became quite disruptive on campus. I can see him badgering anyone and everyone with questions...stopping students, faculty, or anyone to find answers. While I understand why he was there, as I would do the same thing, maybe the way he was going about it was considered almost a threat to other students. They have a responsibility to their students and faculty to protect them, too.

[DeltaDawn]

Absolutely vital info, though. I thought there was a restraining order against the dad (?). Whether there was or wasn't, the school's/church's attitude seems a bit extreme to me.

There was a restraining order against his Dad, who was a Wis sheriff or something to do with LE. However he was persistent and the restraining order was lifted.

[RR0004]

Working under the assumption that many of these drownings weren't accidental, there's a lot of anger there on the part of the those responsible (JMO).

[SuziQ]

St. John's monastic community definitely has their issues.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2006/09_10/2006_09_07_Smith_AbuseAllegations.htm

[RR0004]

The students of the local university, not sure if it was U of W or St. John's, or both, had posted their frustration at not having the grounds examined. I think it was his insistence on searching the Abbey that got him in a SLOT.

[RR0004]

Yup, Suzi!

[SeriouslySearching]

I'm no expert, but if they were already dead then they wouldn't find water in the lungs (active respiration would be necessary for that...if I'm not mistaken).

PS- I've thought the same thing. But, IMO, the "holding the legs up theory" may be a good working theory instead.As much as we have gotten into this, what I have understood is that there are several "schools of thought" on this. At some point in drownings where the body remains submerged, the muscles relax and the lungs are flooded (IIRC). Drowning deaths where the people are taken out of the water soon after will show if they inhaled water or not as an indiction they were already dead.

[DeltaDawn]

What I found interesting from the People article was that in all 40 of the cases the detectives tie together..there was either a smiley face, or one of 12 different symbols. So each of these crimes had some sort of symbol or two left at the site, many even with gang memebers names.

Any ideas what the other 12 symbols are?

[RR0004]

SS-exactly...doesn't mean they didn't go in the water unconscious...and that's where I rack my brains.

[SeriouslySearching]

No, but I would love to know. I think the smiley was released because it is one of those universal type symbols. I would have to assume the others are more specific to a certain group.

[DeltaDawn]

As much as we have gotten into this, what I have understood is that there are several "schools of thought" on this. At some point in drownings where the body remains submerged, the muscles relax and the lungs are flooded (IIRC). Drowning deaths where the people are taken out of the water soon after will show if they inhaled water or not as an indiction they were already dead.

I was thinking in terms of Chris Jenkins only having a teaspoon or so of water in his lungs. Then I wondered how much water was in the other Vic's lungs? Then I wondered if that water was tested against the water in the river/pond the vics were found in to be sure that was where they drowned?

[DeltaDawn]

No, but I would love to know. I think the smiley was released because it is one of those universal type symbols. I would have to assume the others are more specific to a certain group.


That's what I thought too SS and I have been scouring those pics and enlarging them , but cannot make out anything else...great cropping job by the detectives.

[RR0004]

DD- could the "symbols" be more like a symbolic representation such as personal items left somewhere away from the body?

[DeltaDawn]

Something else interesting Sinsinawa Moound is where the nuns have a retreat center. Hmm...do the perps have something against religion, especially the Catholic religion? Maybe the perps were molested as children.

[SeriouslySearching]

SS-exactly...doesn't mean they didn't go in the water unconscious...and that's where I rack my brains.The problem being they were submerged and left in the water for an extended period of time..making this call almost impossible in an autopsy unless I am wrong about this. Either unconscious or already dead...they would not be able to distinguish after a period of time being submerged. The COD would still have to be considered drowning if there are no other wounds or damage to organs to determine an exact cause. In other words...without a bullet...you have no crime and they have to rule it as an "accidental drowning". It is done by process of elimination much like Hypothermia.

[RR0004]

DD-I'd like to know as well about the water. They would have had to test the rivers, lakes, ponds, to match, wouldn't they have?

[SuziQ]

A snippet from a letter regarding an observation someone made of the monks that were supposed to be on restriction because of the sex abuse case fallout, during a visit in (2004?). It seems no one was monitoring and insuring those restrictions were being followed:

http://www.richardsipe.com/Dialogue/Dialogue-15-2007-09-30.html


30 September 2007
St. John's Troubled Abbey
Dialogue # 15

The last time I was on the campus was three years ago, during the summer. I strolled the campus without any particular goal except to see the new additions and renew pleasant old memories. My path crossed with six monks. Five of them where men who had been alleged sexual abusers and I knew they were on “restriction.” Two were accompanying groups that I presumed were visitors. Two were around the Guest master’s office located in the vestibule of the old church. The other was just crossing campus. None spoke with me. A victim of abuse had reported to me that one of the priests giving tours had propositioned him several months before in the campus Pub. So much for a program of supervision and restriction. The one monk who spoke to me is an old friend sweating on a work gang taking out an old concrete walkway. Ora et Labora: an authentic expression of old St. John’s.

[SeriouslySearching]

Something else interesting Sinsinawa Moound is where the nuns have a retreat center. Hmm...do the perps have something against religion.LOL Yes, I am thinking this group isn't very religious for some reason.

ETA: Sorry...I had to say it. :) LOL

[RR0004]

SS-gotcha- the path of least resistence.

[Armchairsleuth]

Hello all. I'm new here and have been reading or 'trolling' I believe it's called. I saw someone on a recent posting ask about a drowning in PA possibly connected. Here's where I found it. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6118869

[RR0004]

There's definitely anger/hatred of males.

[SeriouslySearching]

I was thinking in terms of Chris Jenkins only having a teaspoon or so of water in his lungs. Then I wondered how much water was in the other Vic's lungs? Then I wondered if that water was tested against the water in the river/pond the vics were found in to be sure that was where they drowned?My guess is they did not test it. There were a lot of things that should have been covered in his autopsy which were not. It is curious that there was only a teaspoon of water in his lungs with everything I have been reading on the subject.

[RR0004]

You know even before I happened upon this site, I wondered how come so many young men were ending up in the Hudson River (NY). First, you'd hear they were missing...the next thing you knew they were the latest "floater' (forgive me). It got to the point that I just grew to expect it. These guys weren't being "rolled" (for cash, jewelry, etc.) they were being abducted and tossed.

[SeriouslySearching]

So Suzi where are you going with all the talk of the Monastery? Are you thinking that a gang of monks are responsible?

[RR0004]

In 8 feet of water, a teaspoon? That's enough to kill you? I realize I know so little about drowning.

[SuziQ]

Hello all. I'm new here and have been reading or 'trolling' I believe it's called. I saw someone on a recent posting ask about a drowning in PA possibly connected. Here's where I found it. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6118869

Welcome! From your link:

On a hunch, Willoughby asked his detectives to take another look behind Bootleggers.
"When they went down into the area where we thought he went into the water, they noticed the graffiti and they noticed this smiley face painted on the wall," said Willoughby.
It's a smiley face with a crown on its head.
It's on the wall of the bar under the party deck, just 30 feet from the creek.
Detective Willoughby called Tommy's mom who had also seen the news report.
"When he told me about the smiley face, it just gave me chills," she said.
The New York detectives believe there's more than one killer, perhaps a gang, since all of the smiley faces are painted differently.
Detective Willoughby has sent them pictures of the smiley face found near Ridley Creek.
He also contacted the FBI, even though they've looked at the other cases and dismissed the possibility of a link.
"I just think we need to look a little further into this case," Willoughby said.

[SuziQ]

So Suzi where are you going with all the talk of the Monastery? Are you thinking that a gang of monks are responsible?

I'm not sure a gang of anyone has anything to do with these cases. We could be looking at several different serial killers.

I'm basically trying to track down why Chris Jenkins would have been the subject of a search at St. John's Monastery at all. He has no connection to St John's that I know of, especially the monestary. In the process I'm finding all kinds of info. IMO, the monastery and the monks need to be looked at closer.

[shadowraiths]

St. John's monastic community definitely has their issues.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2006/09_10/2006_09_07_Smith_AbuseAllegations.htm
Here's the website mentioned in the article: http://www.behindthepinecurtain.com

[SeriouslySearching]

Hello all. I'm new here and have been reading or 'trolling' I believe it's called. I saw someone on a recent posting ask about a drowning in PA possibly connected. Here's where I found it. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6118869Welcome to WS, Armchairsleuth!! Great first post! I will include those photos on the photo thread and put his name on the PA list.

At least, their PD is going to look for answers and are not swayed by the FBI's attitude on it. It does sound as if it could be connected, but even if it isn't...someone still needs to take a serious look at Tommy's case.

[SeriouslySearching]

Suzi~ Are the monks related to all the different areas where we believe these men were murdered in different parts of the country? Have you checked out that relationship?

[DeltaDawn]

Hello all. I'm new here and have been reading or 'trolling' I believe it's called. I saw someone on a recent posting ask about a drowning in PA possibly connected. Here's where I found it. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6118869


Wow thank you..atleast this officer immediately noticed a pattern . He has called the FBI nad the the detectives.

That creek looked very shallow too. Like if you could stand up you could easily walk out..unless you were drugged and held down.

[Armchairsleuth]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm trying to figure out how to get around here. When I first heard this story on the news it took several times of it running before I really paid attention. What really caught my interest was why the FBI would dismiss any notion of a possible seriel killer(s). I didn't go threw FBI training (thus my name....), but even I can see there MAY be a connection to each of them.

[SuziQ]

Suzi~ Are the monks related to all the different areas where we believe these men were murdered in different parts of the country? Have you checked out that relationship?

There are monastic groups all over the U.S. I haven't started searching anything geographic yet.

[SuziQ]

Here's the website mentioned in the article: http://www.behindthepinecurtain.com

Thank you!

[shadowraiths]

Hello all. I'm new here and have been reading or 'trolling' I believe it's called. I saw someone on a recent posting ask about a drowning in PA possibly connected. Here's where I found it. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6118869
From the above link:
None of the other cases appear to be robberies. The only thing missing, usually, is the victim's cell phone. Tommy was found with his wallet in his pocket. The only thing missing -- his cell phone.
Does anyone know if other victims were missing their cell phones when they were found? If so, hopefully LE has contacted the teclos to tag the sims.

[DeltaDawn]

Suzi Q, I think this what you are looking for. http://www.vanceholmes.com/court/trial_missing_students.html

"We absolutely believe they are connected. With Interstate 94 there -- they are the same in height, weight, all active on campus, there is something there. We spoke with the parents of the other ones and that's how we found out about all --the similarities they are high achievers, heights and weights -- they are all very similar."
-- Josh Guimond's father, Brian Guimond


Scott's parents and Josh's parents spoke to each other, thought there were links and started pursuing that idea. That's why I think they took tracker dogs there for both Josh and also Chris.

[SeriouslySearching]

Another interesting note about Tommy Booth's drowning in Ridley Township...it is less 3 miles from where Chiang was arrested in Swarthmore, PA.

[Armchairsleuth]

Didn't I read where one of the victims called someone with his cell phone and told them he was in the woods being chased by a bunch of people and was scared to death? I wonder if police found his cell phone? Maybe the person keeps the cell phones as trophy.

[dairybest]

From the above link:None of the other cases appear to be robberies. The only thing missing, usually, is the victim's cell phone. Tommy was found with his wallet in his pocket. The only thing missing -- his cell phone.Does anyone know if other victims were missing their cell phones when they were found? If so, hopefully LE has contacted the teclos to tag the sims.

Is is possible for the cell phones to be trophies?

[RR0004]

I believe so Shadow.

I thought that as far as why the monastery came into question in the first place was due to the proimity of the grounds being rather close to the river (?)

OMG- that PA story is chilling. I was just searching for "missing person" cases in PA. I had remembered there was a student who went missing from PSU while my son was there. It was a female, though, but eerily she was last seen after partying on Halloween. Then, I come back to this.

[dairybest]

Welcome Armchairsleuth! Didn't mean to duplicate, guess we were riding the same wave. (Still trying to figure out how to navigate here!)

[RR0004]

OK, SS. Now I'm seriously spooked!!

[RR0004]

OMG!!!!!! The girl was Korean and there had been a sighting in (of all places) Philadelphia with a man of asian descent, supposedly yelling for help. How old was that guy in PA that got picked up?

My imagination is running away from me. Sorry guys.

[SuziQ]

I believe so Shadow.

I thought that as far as why the monastery came into question in the first place was due to the proimity of the grounds being rather close to the river (?)

OMG- that PA story is chilling. I was just searching for "missing person" cases in PA. I had remembered there was a student who went missing from PSU while my son was there. It was a female, though, but eerily she was last seen after partying on Halloween. Then, I come back to this.

Actually the monastery came into question because the entire campus was being searched because Josh disappeared from St Johns campus.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/110902-josh-guimond-collegeville-mn.html

Josh Guimond left a small card party at Metten Court on the St. John's University campus in Collegeville, MN, to walk back to his own dorm room at St. Maur House. It was a three minute walk, but he never made it home.

[Armchairsleuth]

My nephew travels in differnt circle, he goes to these clubs. The first thing he said when he saw the smiley face left behind at the bar in PA where Tommy Booth went missing was it looked like the 'tag' of a visious female gang out of Queens New York. He said the eyes looked like they had eye lashes and the tree dots above the head was a crown. He said they kidnap male victims, have sex with them and kill them. Has anyone else heard of such a gang? That smiley face does look differnt from the others.

[SuziQ]

Didn't I read where one of the victims called someone with his cell phone and told them he was in the woods being chased by a bunch of people and was scared to death? I wonder if police found his cell phone? Maybe the person keeps the cell phones as trophy.

Was it this case? No mention of whether his cell phone was found or not.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/061205-josh-snell-22-eau-claire-wi.html

[DeltaDawn]

I don't know that the cell phones are trophies..as much as just taken from the vic at some point in this hellious scene. Many of the cellphones I thought were found in other locations, in the opposite direction of the body.

[RR0004]

Right, thanks Suzi. If you haven't already seen it, there's a message posted by Josh's dad just yesterday on his website. I can feel the man right through the board.

[RR0004]

DD-you're right. Could that have been symbolic staging of some sort?

[Armchairsleuth]

Was it this case? No mention of whether his cell phone was found or not.

No it wasn't this case. While I was reading other 'possible related' cases, I remember reading early on where one of the guys went to a wedding or something and got separated and called his girlfriend and told her he was in the woods being chased by a group of people and was scared to death. I believe he told her he would call when he could and the police told the girlfriend he was just trying to get her sympathy or something like that. I don't recall if they found his cell phone or not.

[RR0004]

http://www.findjoshua.com

[DeltaDawn]

Was it this case? No mention of whether his cell phone was found or not.

I think that was the Josh Snell case where he was in the brush and being chased. He was back in the area for a wedding, left the bar to go to a friends house, never seen again. But they did get a phone call that he was being chased, he didn't know by who or why.
I'll look for a link.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/061205-josh-snell-22-eau-claire-wi.html


http://www.weau.com/news/headlines/18353369.html
snip/
In a phone call with a friend "he said he was scared, that he was hiding in a brushy area, that he was running from someone, that he didn’t know who it was or how he was going to get away. (He said) he didn’t do anything, but he was terrified and he was scared for his life,” Jon Snell says.
/snip

[SuziQ]

I think that was the Justin Dion case where he was in the brush and being chased.

Do you mean Jared Dion? I'm not seeing any info that he was chased or makind a call.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/041004-jared-dion-21-la-crosse-wi.html

I forgot the link and fixed my above post.

[SuziQ]

No it wasn't this case. While I was reading other 'possible related' cases, I remember reading early on where one of the guys went to a wedding or something and got separated and called his girlfriend and told her he was in the woods being chased by a group of people and was scared to death. I believe he told her he would call when he could and the police told the girlfriend he was just trying to get her sympathy or something like that. I don't recall if they found his cell phone or not.

Sorry, I forgot the link earlier.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/061205-josh-snell-22-eau-claire-wi.html

Twenty-two year old Josh Snell, from Hastings, MN was in Eau Claire, WI on 6/11/05 to attend the wedding of a former classmate from Immanuel Lutheran College

[Armchairsleuth]

Sorry, I forgot the link earlier.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/061205-josh-snell-22-eau-claire-wi.html

Twenty-two year old Josh Snell, from Hastings, MN was in Eau Claire, WI on 6/11/05 to attend the wedding of a former classmate from Immanuel Lutheran College

Thanks. I knew I read it somewhere. I can't keep them all straight....

[dairybest]

Just flashed on the WCAX-TV NEWS on TV : "A search crew from Maine believes they spotted Nick Garza's body two weeks ago in the Otter Creek..."

[DeltaDawn]

Do you mean Jared Dion? I'm not seeing any info that he was chased or makind a call.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/041004-jared-dion-21-la-crosse-wi.html

I forgot the link and fixed my above post.


No I meant Josh Snell..I went back and edited my post to a more recent article where his brother verifies the phone call from Josh to a friend where he is in the brushy area hiding and terrified. Sorry..all these names that start with J are getting confusing..because there are way too many of them. My mistake.

http://www.weau.com/news/headlines/18353369.html

snip/
In a phone call with a friend "he said he was scared, that he was hiding in a brushy area, that he was running from someone, that he didn’t know who it was or how he was going to get away. (He said) he didn’t do anything, but he was terrified and he was scared for his life,” Jon Snell says.
/snip

[SuziQ]

Just flashed on the WCAX-TV NEWS on TV : "A search crew from Maine believes they spotted Nick Garza's body two weeks ago in the Otter Creek..."

I think it might be related to this article. Maybe there is an update to this?

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=8192669

[DeltaDawn]

Just flashed on the WCAX-TV NEWS on TV : "A search crew from Maine believes they spotted Nick Garza's body two weeks ago in the Otter Creek..."

There was a preliminary search by air where they thought they had found something..but evidently due to the flooding of the creek and the currents they have not been able to sufficiently search that area. They are saying it may be as long as two weeks before they are able to place divers in the water there safely.

[dairybest]

Just flashed on the WCAX-TV NEWS on TV : "A search crew from Maine believes they spotted Nick Garza's body two weeks ago in the Otter Creek..."

Apparently, they believe that his body is trapped in the rushing water beneath the Middlebury Falls. I don't want to misquote anything from the newscast so if you would like more info:

MPD – Middlebury Police Department http://www.middleburypolice.org/news_garza.htm (http://www.middleburypolice.org/news_garza.htm)

Burlington, VT TV Station
http://www.wcax.com/ (http://www.wcax.com/)

There are more links on the WS /Vermont/Nicholas Garza thread.

I am numb about this. The words just aren't there.

[emmcee]

There's definitely anger/hatred of males.


I've been trying to catch up with all the comments and this one of yours made me log in. This was the very FIRST thing that my husband said when I was telling him about these cases. His gut reaction was that the perp(s) has to be a man hater (maybe lezzies?). Could Monks also be man haters (as in masculine-envy?) The victims were all good looking, smart, normal masculine guys who had everything going for them . . . . lots of possible reasons for envy.

[DeltaDawn]

Apparently, they believe that his body is trapped in the rushing water beneath the Middlebury Falls. I don't want to misquote anything from the newscast so if you would like more info:

MPD – Middlebury Police Department http://www.middleburypolice.org/news_garza.htm (http://www.middleburypolice.org/news_garza.htm)

Burlington, VT TV Station
http://www.wcax.com/ (http://www.wcax.com/)

There are more links on the WS /Vermont/Nicholas Garza thread.

I am numb about this. The words just aren't there.


Thank you db. This is heart breaking.

[Armchairsleuth]

I know I'm new here and this may not be anything but has anyone else given thought to the smiley face being a symbom for the drug escasty?

http://www.ecstasydata.org/viewtablet.php?ID=472

[SuziQ]

I know I'm new here and this may not be anything but has anyone else given thought to the smiley face being a symbom for the drug escasty?

http://www.ecstasydata.org/viewtablet.php?ID=472

Yeah, it was discussed in the very beginning.

[SuziQ]

Right, thanks Suzi. If you haven't already seen it, there's a message posted by Josh's dad just yesterday on his website. I can feel the man right through the board.

That is hearbreaking. Unfortunately not too many adults are abducted and kept alive for over five years. What a henious position for these parents to be in.

[SeriouslySearching]

I know I'm new here and this may not be anything but has anyone else given thought to the smiley face being a symbom for the drug escasty?

http://www.ecstasydata.org/viewtablet.php?ID=472There is a thread on GHB etc. that could be associated to these cases, too.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64040

[SuziQ]

There is a thread on GHB etc. that could be associated to these cases, too.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64040

Armchair, you should put that ecstacy link into the drugs thread. We may need to refer to it later.

[DeltaDawn]

That is hearbreaking. Unfortunately not too many adults are abducted and kept alive for over five years. What a henious position for these parents to be in.


Which Josh is this about?

There are so many Josh's and Justin's and a Jared it is heartbreakingly hard to keep them straight. Not trying to deminish any of them here. Prayers to their families and friends.

[SeriouslySearching]

Apparently, they believe that his body is trapped in the rushing water beneath the Middlebury Falls. I don't want to misquote anything from the newscast so if you would like more info:

MPD – Middlebury Police Department http://www.middleburypolice.org/news_garza.htm (http://www.middleburypolice.org/news_garza.htm)

Burlington, VT TV Station
http://www.wcax.com/ (http://www.wcax.com/)

There are more links on the WS /Vermont/Nicholas Garza thread.

I am numb about this. The words just aren't there.:( Thanks for letting us know.

[SeriouslySearching]

Armchair, you should put that ecstacy link into the drugs thread. We may need to refer to it later.Taken care of. :)

[DeltaDawn]

I know I'm new here and this may not be anything but has anyone else given thought to the smiley face being a symbom for the drug escasty?

http://www.ecstasydata.org/viewtablet.php?ID=472


Somehow I think this whole case is linked to symbolism. The smiley, the 12 other symbols, the way Chris Jenkins body was postioned, etc.

[SeriouslySearching]

There is so much gang graffiti around that it is hard to distinguish if any of the symbols are related to the drownings.

I have been researching all afternoon about graffiti (I know I have seen the lines with the two straight marks coming out on the sides somewhere, but haven't found it again.). I think the graffiti in Ridley looks like standard gang art. The smiley face with the crown having 3 points could be associated to the LK's.

I am finding nothing on female gangs in Queens, NY (Thanks for that tip, Arm.) or anywhere else in the country.

[Armchairsleuth]

Taken care of. :)

Thank you. I did tell everyone I ws new which = slow for now.:blushing:

[Masterj]

My nephew travels in differnt circle, he goes to these clubs. The first thing he said when he saw the smiley face left behind at the bar in PA where Tommy Booth went missing was it looked like the 'tag' of a visious female gang out of Queens New York. He said the eyes looked like they had eye lashes and the tree dots above the head was a crown. He said they kidnap male victims, have sex with them and kill them. Has anyone else heard of such a gang? That smiley face does look differnt from the others.

In what part of Queens? I live in Queens and never heard of anything like that. Hmmm, I am going to pay attention to graffiti now. I will say that graffiti is all over the place in much of Queens.

As for cell phones, I know Chris Jenkin's girlfriend Ashley has his cell phone. She returned it to his parents the next day. Along with his wallet, I think?

[SeriouslySearching]

Thank you. I did tell everyone I was new which = slow for now.:blushing:LOL It wasn't that you were slow! I just added it to bump up that thread for you to see. :blowkiss:

[Armchairsleuth]

In what part of Queens? I live in Queens and never heard of anything like that. Hmmm, I am going to pay attention to graffiti now. I will say that graffiti is all over the place in much of Queens.

As for cell phones, I know Chris Jenkin's girlfriend Ashley has his cell phone. She returned it to his parents the next day. Along with his wallet, I think?

I'm afraid I know nothing about Queens, I was just repeating what my nephew said. I didn't even know there were different parts. I thought it was something that should be mentioned and looked at. You never know.

[SeriouslySearching]

I am still checking on the female gang angle, Arm. Just because I haven't run across much on the internet doesn't mean they don't exist. It is an interesting angle because we have discussed these possibly having a female approach or lure even.

It is such an odd way to a commit murder, imo. The majority of gang members would simply shoot them. Another male on male murder would seem to me to have more aggressive behaviors associated with it such as a brutal beating, stabbing, etc. The whole aspect of how these men are drowned with no physical signs of trauma is so different.

To me, it has this element of someone who is savy about forensics and is intelligent. Someone who is practiced at this particular way of killing. They obviously know exactly what they are doing and have spent time perfecting it. I don't know if the average killer or street gang could pull this off time after time with such precision and not be caught.

After the various murders around Madison, WI for years...I have often wondered if the person wasn't trying out different methods of murder. While they were females and the COD was different...they still shared some commonalities with the male drownings.

[RR0004]

SS- definitely agree with you!

[DeltaDawn]

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2003/03/03/38102
SNIP/
He also said the family is having the body tested specifically for drugs and for properties of the water in his lungs to see if it matches the water in the Mississippi River.

Froberg said testing for river water in the lungs is probably useless because water would eventually fill them anyway.
/SNIP

This article is from 2003 it would be interesting to know what that autopsy found.

[RR0004]

Yes, I wonder what the autopsy revealed as far as that is concerned. I would think, though, that it would show bacteria that's found in a river.

[SeriouslySearching]

That statement supports what I have been reading: Froberg said testing for river water in the lungs is probably useless because water would eventually fill them anyway.
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2003/03/03/38102

[RR0004]

Yes, Emmcee...something very dark is the driving force behind these deaths (which may be obvious in the numbers)...as you've mentioned there's something to the selection of victims.

[SeriouslySearching]

The only reporter that I have seen mention females in all this. However, he is way off on his number of only two.:

For at least the past 10 years, a number of Midwestern college students (mostly men, but there are at least two women) have either gone missing or have been mysteriously found dead after going out drinking with friends. All seem to have somehow become separated from other people and were apparently alone, except for the perpetrator(s) of the crime.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2008/05/02/72167032

[SeriouslySearching]

I've been trying to catch up with all the comments and this one of yours made me log in. This was the very FIRST thing that my husband said when I was telling him about these cases. His gut reaction was that the perp(s) has to be a man hater (maybe lezzies?). Could Monks also be man haters (as in masculine-envy?) The victims were all good looking, smart, normal masculine guys who had everything going for them . . . . lots of possible reasons for envy.Or total nerds who seriously have a hatred of their "type".

[DeltaDawn]

My post above #343 were Freburg claims before the autopsy the lungs would be filled with water.

This a post from his sister Sara on 4/26/08 at the family website:

Remember Chris Jenkins

http://www.rememberchrisjenkins.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=149


snip/
We knew right away it was murder. Why? He was found floating face up, hands crossed across his chest with one hand clenched, clog type shoes still on (they had a very small lip on the back), shirt tucked in, and less than a tsp. of water in his lungs. Bodies in moving water do not show up like this. It was clear Chris was probably along the shore encased in ice where the rushing water didn't affect his clothing in that amount of time. We felt there was NO WAY his body hung out around Nicollet Island all winter, he would have been seen. Part of his face and hands were exposed to the elements most of the time because the rate of decomposition on them was much more than the trunk of his body, his legs, back etc.

There is a group in the country with "cells" scattered in numerous cities large and small alike. There is a hierarchy in this group, it is very organized, and they are killing our loved ones. They usually choose males as their kill of choice and often these result in missing persons later found in bodies of water. Knowledge is power and we want to prevent this from ever happening to another family.
/snip


I knew I read somewhere there was less then a teaspoon of water in his lungs. Also the first comments in my previous post were prior to the first autopsy. But it was driving me crazy to find this quote again about the amount of actual water in his lungs.

Notice his sister says usually choose males..not the word always. I would think by now her family knows pretty well exactly who they are dealing with here. And I would say they believe that there have been female vics.

[SeriouslySearching]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12836.html

[DeltaDawn]

I don't know the answer to that one, because they are just saying homicide..not how. But with his face exposed to the elements then we wouldn't know if he was suffocated first then immediately placed in water.

Interesting her comment that they usually choose males..that doesn't say always..so some of our missing young ladies may be part of this bigger case too.

I read the scuba board on drowning that you posted. They have some interesting information, yet seem to be at odds over their theories. Thanky SS for posting that link.

[SeriouslySearching]

I just don't want to get bogged down on one fact of one case here. I don't know if it makes a difference of how much water was in his lungs...unless all of the cases share that common thread.

[cheko1]

I just retrieved this from one of the links for Nick Rossini, who was from White Bear Lake Mn:



https://www.blogger.com/img/b16-rounded.gif mykel_ls (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13826384143799254358) said... I came across an article on this subject and it made my hair stand up. When I got out of the Military in 2000-2001, I was in Minneapolis,Mn. and had been partying with people at a night club, then we went back to a hotel. I remember accidentally locking myself out of the room and ending up on the street in front of the hotel. I had been drinking and I was a little drunk. I remember a van pulling up beside me, then side door opened...then everything went black. I woke up on a matress, in the back of the van, hands bound...covered with a piece of plywood. I was able to get out and make my way back to downtown Minneapolis and to the hotel. The van was at some tall projects with, I think, blue and red panels...close to a rail road track. I thought I would mention this because I read a few articles on this where they thought these victims may have been abducted with a van.

[cheko1]

mykel from my above post stated he had called LE & could say no more!

I've thought for ages there was something to all the guys drowning in our area (WISCONSIN) but holy moley there is 16.....thats way to many for it not to be a serial killer.

[SeriouslySearching]

Excellent find, Cheko!! I was hoping people would start coming out about their own experiences after the media got this story out!! Wow! (Does it mean he didn't call LE when it first happened?)

[SuziQ]

Great find Cheko, the links you have don't take me to the comment though. Can you provide a better one?

SS, I've been waiting to start hearing about the "ones who got away".

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes, Suzi. That is what is going to really "break" this case wide open...when they find "the ones who got away" to testify against the people.

[SuziQ]

I found the Nick Rossini discussion here:

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/12/121606-nick-rossini-21-white-bear-lake.html

[RR0004]

Then there was this terrible disappearance of a U of W student (Madison) who was found in NM...also a military man...death ruled a suicide. What was particularly disturbing, besides the manner of death and the fact that he was found near a canal, was that they (University, city of Madison) didn't know he was missing until they found his body.

[SuziQ]

Riverside Plaza mentioned in the Nick Rossini discussion:

http://www.riversideplaza.net/

google map:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1600+South+6th+Street,+Minneapolis,+MN+55454&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.946584,82.265625&ie=UTF8&ll=44.968851,-93.2494&spn=0.020616,0.040169&z=15

[SeriouslySearching]

I found the Nick Rossini discussion here:

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/12/121606-nick-rossini-21-white-bear-lake.htmlIt is odd that both of them were involved in accidents. Nathan Edberg's disappearance happened after he went off into a ditch and Nick's after he wrecked his mom's car. There are two sets of people who knew about both incidents: The police and the tow truck drivers. The latter is a group we haven't considered, but would be out and about at that time of morning when the disappearances occurred.

[cheko1]

Great find Cheko, the links you have don't take me to the comment though. Can you provide a better one?

SS, I've been waiting to start hearing about the "ones who got away".

Sorry Suzi I would of posted it but was reading other things trying to find out more info!

[SeriouslySearching]

I just retrieved this from one of the links for Nick Rossini, who was from White Bear Lake Mn:

https://www.blogger.com/img/b16-rounded.gif mykel_ls (http://www.blogger.com/profile/13826384143799254358) said... I came across an article on this subject and it made my hair stand up. When I got out of the Military in 2000-2001, I was in Minneapolis,Mn. and had been partying with people at a night club, then we went back to a hotel. I remember accidentally locking myself out of the room and ending up on the street in front of the hotel. I had been drinking and I was a little drunk. I remember a van pulling up beside me, then side door opened...then everything went black. I woke up on a matress, in the back of the van, hands bound...covered with a piece of plywood. I was able to get out and make my way back to downtown Minneapolis and to the hotel. The van was at some tall projects with, I think, blue and red panels...close to a rail road track. I thought I would mention this because I read a few articles on this where they thought these victims may have been abducted with a van.This sounds like the picture you just brought up! http://www.riversideplaza.net/

[cheko1]

Excellent find, Cheko!! I was hoping people would start coming out about their own experiences after the media got this story out!! Wow! (Does it mean he didn't call LE when it first happened?)

He DID NOT call LE when it first happened! He wouldn't of now but people asked him to call so he did!

[SeriouslySearching]

Well...it would be understandable for a man who was even a little drunk not to call LE even if they were abducted not to call if they didn't want to go to jail or deal with LE in that state. It is a typical response more for a male under those circumstances. I think a female would call no matter what.

[SuziQ]

It is odd that both of them were involved in accidents. Nathan Edberg's disappearance happened after he went off into a ditch and Nick's after he wrecked his mom's car. There are two sets of people who knew about both incidents: The police and the tow truck drivers. The latter is a group we haven't considered, but would be out and about at that time of morning when the disappearances occurred.

Tow truck driver is very interesting. I also found this:

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/12/121606-nick-rossini-21-white-bear-lake.html

After graduating from White Bear Lake high school in 2004, Nick attended St. John's University, where just two years earlier, student Joshua Guimond disappeared.

[cheko1]

This sounds like the picture you just brought up! http://www.riversideplaza.net/

Yes it sure does....I'm just not sure where the railroad tracks are?

[cheko1]

Hubby is at the lake or I'd ask him where the tracks are? He'd know without a doubt. I'll ask him when he returns in the morning.....

[cheko1]

SS Did you get my PM?

[SeriouslySearching]

Hmmmm...when did you send it?

[SuziQ]

Yes it sure does....I'm just not sure where the railroad tracks are?


Here is a google map. The train tracks is the blue marker on the left. Riverside Plaza is the blue marker on the right.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=44.968908,-93.250628&spn=0.002577,0.005021&t=h&z=18&msid=105453785967947919432.00044c600ee5652be0cb3

[SeriouslySearching]

Well, that would fit then. Thanks, Suzi. (It was funny because I went back later and read the rest of those comments. Here I thought I arrived at that on my own. LOL I didn't know where you came up with it tho.)

[cecileew]

Full Article:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/artic...ews/00lead.prt




Nick Thompson, 25, of Viroqua, an acquaintance of Fortney’s who police said is thought to have been at the same bar Saturday night, also is having trouble piecing together a similar time frame. Thompson turned up Sunday morning at the hospital as well, passed out in the lobby, police said. He told police he didn’t know how he got there and that his pickup truck, which he had parked in the Wettstein’s lot, was missing.



Police found the vehicle Thursday in the 900 block of King Street. Video footage of the parking lot showed a man entering the vehicle with keys about 3 a.m. Sunday and driving away, Police Capt. Rob Abraham said.



The footage isn’t sharp, but police believe the man who entered the vehicle was, in fact, Thompson, Abraham said. Thompson told police he doesn’t remember driving the truck, leaving it on King Street or how he ended up at the hospital.



Police initially believed the missing truck was connected with Fortney’s mysterious night, but now consider them separate cases, Abraham said.

[SuziQ]

Full Article:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/artic...ews/00lead.prt

Nick Thompson, 25, of Viroqua, an acquaintance of Fortney’s who police said is thought to have been at the same bar Saturday night, also is having trouble piecing together a similar time frame. Thompson turned up Sunday morning at the hospital as well, passed out in the lobby, police said. He told police he didn’t know how he got there and that his pickup truck, which he had parked in the Wettstein’s lot, was missing.



Very good find, thank you! Nick and Cullen didn't go to the bar together but had the same memory lapse. Something was up at that bar that night. It would be nice to find out the name of the bar to see if it's linked to any of the other cases. Below is a snippet from an article that names two friends that Cullen was with. Did they experience anything odd? ETA: I see from re reading the email that his friends were fine.

http://badgerherald.com/news/2006/01/15/student_survives_fal.php

(snip)
According to a police report, Fortney said he left the downtown bars around 1:45 a.m. following a night of drinking beer and mixed drinks. He separated from friends Ryan Larson and Jay Hoffland before ending up in the river.

[SuziQ]

Reposting snips of the email from Cullen's dad.

http://digg.com/world_news/Smiley_Face_Serial_Killer_of_College_Men_Nationwid e?t=14832000

And at bar time Cullen was no where to be seen. Ryan and Jay were up until 5:30 trying to find him.
***
He remembers being in John's Bar. And the next thing he remembers is being in the water.
***
So on Sunday I am thinking he had had way too much to drink and I was upset for several reasons. Well, the blood alcohol came back Monday. Cullen was not drunk. His blood alcohol was .04. Yet Cullen can not recall anything from 1:30 AM until waking up in the river. What did someone put in Cullen's drink?
***
I do know that John's Bar is under surveillance. Just what that means I am not sure.

[SuziQ]

More info on Cullen's BAC and drug screen. IMO, if GHB was involved, it may not have shown up 8+ hours later.

Roger Putnam, Fortney’s uncle and family spokesman, said a full toxicology report revealed no suspicious substances in Fortney’s system. This supports La Crosse police’s earlier conclusion that foul play was not involved, Putnam said.
***
An e-mail that circulated widely in the days after the incident had speculated someone slipped another substance into Fortney’s drink that night, since his blood-alcohol level registered 0.043 when tested about 9 a.m. at the hospital. The same e-mail implied the incident might have been tied to past river drownings of other young men who had been at downtown La Crosse bars.

But Fortney’s blood-alcohol level would have been 0.163 percent at about 1:30 a.m., police said.

ETA: I forgot the link, now I can't find it.

[luthersmama]

Luthersmama...how far is the school from Philadelphia? I don't think this kid driving around in the type of car he was had robbery in mind? Do you?

I don't know what to think about Chiang. It is odd that a Temple student would drive to Swarthmore to do anything. There are thousands of college kids in Philadelphia. There are no bars in Swarthmore, so he wasn't hanging out in one.

My hunch is that he is just a delusional sick puppy who had some idea of picking up a kid for some reason but couldn't pull it off. It is a good thing he was caught.

[Blink34]

More info on Cullen's BAC and drug screen. IMO, if GHB was involved, it may not have shown up 8+ hours later.

Roger Putnam, Fortney’s uncle and family spokesman, said a full toxicology report revealed no suspicious substances in Fortney’s system. This supports La Crosse police’s earlier conclusion that foul play was not involved, Putnam said.
***
An e-mail that circulated widely in the days after the incident had speculated someone slipped another substance into Fortney’s drink that night, since his blood-alcohol level registered 0.043 when tested about 9 a.m. at the hospital. The same e-mail implied the incident might have been tied to past river drownings of other young men who had been at downtown La Crosse bars.



But Fortney’s blood-alcohol level would have been 0.163 percent at about 1:30 a.m., police said.

ETA: I forgot the link, now I can't find it.

SQ- I have almost time on here today through tomorrow, but I'm almost positive , but either on this thread or in the possible vics, in reference to either Luke Holman's or Matt Kruziki case, there is an "Austin" person who they actaully charged with obstruction, very similar scenario- could there be a pattern here? One guy makes it out but doesnt remember anything?

[Masterj]

I have been discussing this case a lot with Mr. Masterj. He loved the tv show Alias and suggested maybe these young men were being recruited/watched by some sort of secret organization who then turned against them. I don't know about that.

He also pointed something out to me that I completely forgot about. A friend of our best friend works in tv production and previously worked on that MTV show Buzz Kill. In fact, he was in the episode early mentioned, and he acted as one of the kidnappers. I don't see him very often, but when I do, I will be sure to ask him about working on that show. I do know from him that most of MTV's shows are 100% scripted, including their dating shows like Next or RoomRaiders.

[shadowraiths]

SS, I've been waiting to start hearing about the "ones who got away".
Started a thread for the ones who got away (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64347). Also, let's also keep Alcohol-induced blackouts (http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/Blackouts/index.html) in mind. Short term memory is a tenuous thing when drugs of any kind are invovled.

[SuziQ]

SQ- I have almost time on here today through tomorrow, but I'm almost positive , but either on this thread or in the possible vics, in reference to either Luke Holman's or Matt Kruziki case, there is an "Austin" person who they actaully charged with obstruction, very similar scenario- could there be a pattern here? One guy makes it out but doesnt remember anything?

I've done some searches and the only thing I've found is in a couple of cases there were alcohol related charges against the party hosts. Whenever you can research that would be fine. I would be interested in knowing more about Austin.

[SuziQ]

Started a thread for the ones who got away (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64347). Also, let's also keep Alcohol-induced blackouts (http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/Blackouts/index.html) in mind. Short term memory is a tenuous thing when drugs of any kind are invovled.

Thank you for starting that thread. Very interesting link you provided. Unfortunately for me, I remember every stupid thing I've ever said or done while drunk. So I can't relate at all. Now I have to wonder what affect black-outs have on the difference between forgetting where you put away that debit card during the night vs falling in a river.

[shadowraiths]

Thank you for starting that thread. Very interesting link you provided. Unfortunately for me, I remember every stupid thing I've ever said or done while drunk. So I can't relate at all. Now I have to wonder what affect black-outs have on the difference between forgetting where you put away that debit card during the night vs falling in a river.
Performing complex tasks, as well as engaging in behaviors one would not generally engage, while being completely amnestic of such, is a well-known hallmark of acute alcohol poisoning. Alcohol interferes with short term memory, hence, events are never committed to long term memory to recall later. In fact, alcohol is not only significantly correlated to short term memory loss but, over time and through extended use, gross memory impairments (i.e., Korsakoff's Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsakoff's_syndrome)). This memory interference does not necessarily result in an interference of executive functioning however. In other words, not everyone gets "falling down" drunk. We see this in the death tolls on our city streets and highways all across the country.

There is also the other part of this equation. For example, someone who usually would not, say dance naked on a bar room table, have sex with a stranger, commit suicide or homicide, or even jump into a body of freezing water, may very well do so while under the influence of alcohol. This is also a well-known and researched phenomenon, and is referred to as the disinhibition effect. And these (alcohol-induced blackouts & the disinhibition effect), together, are dangerous ingredients, whose outcome can be disastrous.

Edwin Jellinek's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Morton_Jellinek) identified much of the above in his considered ground-breaking research of alcohol abuse in the 1930s. The research was eventually published in book form in 1942. And the criteria he outlined remains as diagnostic criteria in the DSMs. The primary problem with his resulting theory was the proposition that people forget what they did. The fact is, the memory was never committed to short term memory and therefore could not be moved to long term memory. Hence, there is nothing there for them to remember or forget in the first place.

[shadowraiths]

Something else occurred to me, that I've been meaning to mention, Sudden drowning syndrome or what is now known as cold-shock response (which also has a long history and has been well researched). Being a good swimmer does not protect one from drowning if they fall (or jump) into a body of cold water. Though most research focuses upon water-related sports and/or work, the phenomenon, itself describes what occurs when someone suddenly finds themselves immersed in body of cold water.

As soon as you hit the cold water, you gasp for breath and there is a sudden increase in your breathing rate, heart rate, blood pressure and a dramatic decrease in your ability to hold your breath.

If your head is underwater when cold-shock response kicks in, you could take in water and drown. The Coast Guard calls this sudden drowning syndrome, says Rear Adm. Dr. Alan M. Steinman, former director of Health and Safety for the Coast Guard, who wrote about cold-shock response in the Feb. 11 issue of the New Bedford (Mass.) Standard-Times.

[...]

After the cold-shock reflexes have subsided, a fisherman has other things to worry about. It becomes rapidly harder to swim as your hands, arms and legs become colder. And because cold water is more viscous, Steinman says, a person has to work harder than normal to stay afloat and keep his head out of the water.
Full article: click here (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4279749/The-PFD-conundrum-there-is.html)

[Armchairsleuth]

Something else occurred to me, that I've been meaning to mention, Sudden drowning syndrome or what is now known as cold-shock response (which also has a long history and has been well researched). Being a good swimmer does not protect one from drowning if they fall (or jump) into a body of cold water. Though most research focuses upon water-related sports and/or work, the phenomenon, itself describes what occurs when someone suddenly finds themselves immersed in body of cold water.


Full article: click here (http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4279749/The-PFD-conundrum-there-is.html)

Hello Shadowraiths....Let me say that I'm very impressed with and enjoy reading your postings.

However, If that were the case that they fell or jumped into the water, how would that explain the fact that several victims were found with their arms folded across their chest. If I'm in cold water, trust me, my arms are going to be everywhere trying to get out. I think that is the natural thing that happens. At least I know it would be for me.

[RR0004]

In the case of the Ithaca College student, was it even possible to jump into that pond? From the descriptions I've read, it was fairly shallow. The fact that he was found in the middle of the pond even stranger. I haven't read of any bridge that transversed it. It may explain some of the incidents though. I know of a young person who dove into a pool in Colorado and basically died. Granted the pool was no doubt heated, but the change in temperature may have shocked his system. There was no COD. Point being...drastic temperature change can shock the system. I question, though, if a person were into jumping in to a river for "fun" as opposed to a suicide attempt, my feeling iwould be that it's part of a rebel-rousing activity with a bunch of friends; not alone.

[Ethann]

this is my theory.they get stuck with a needle-knocked out-it is not enough to be detected with tests ,but does the job until they get them in the back of their vehicle.they then keep them sedated with refrigerant-r22,while they sit in the front with the windows cracked open.since they are an air conditioner technician they travel to Wisconsin,White Bear Lake,Colubus ohio,Evansville indiana ,and Clarksville tennessee,for classes at the Trane factories ,where they get specialized training for Trane products.Since they work for a major contractor,they would also be working in some of the other cities as well.They then move to albany and are sent to middlebury ,where Trane of Albany has a contract.

[SeriouslySearching]

I found something interesting on a Sorority, Gamma Phi Chapter.

The Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. chapter at Alcorn State University in Mississippi, once referred to as "Gangster Phi" for its brutal hazing rituals, is under fire for allegedly engaging in underground hazing activities.

~snip~

The sorority was forced to suspend intake for all chapters in 2002 after Kristin High and Kenitha Saafir were drowned during alleged underground hazing activities at California State University at Los Angeles.

Grrrrrr...it won't let me get the rest of it without joining. There was a mention in the comments about some man having been kidnapped by this group of women...but it seemed they had removed the comment from the man who made it. I thought it was quite interesting.

AKA Chapter Accused of Hazing - NewsMar 28, 2007 ... The Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. chapter at Alcorn State ... Hazing accusations are very serious, and could cost these girls their ...
www.alcornchronicle.com/news/2007/03/28/News/Aka-Chapter.Accused.Of.Hazing-

Kristin High, 22, and Kenitha Saafir, 24, both drowned Sept. 9 at Dockweiler State Beach near Playa del Rey.

The lawsuit filed by the High family says the students were “blindfolded and tied by their hands and their bodies and led into the riptide conditions of the ocean.”
http://badgerherald.com/news/2002/09/25/alleged_hazing_incid.php

[SeriouslySearching]

Welcome to WS, Ethann! That is quite an intriguing theory, but what reason do they have for killing the male students? What motive would an AC man have to pick on athletic college males? I guess I don't get a connection.

What is r-22? What does it do to you?

[Ethann]

There is a Trane connection.That is the connection.Columbus-Clarksville-LaCrosse-Evansville-white bear Lake.I am just letting the facts speak for themselves.

[SeriouslySearching]

I would have to agee with you, Arm. Even the detectives felt the way Chris' arms were laying out in front was highly unusual for a drowning victim. I would have to say in those cases...someone had to position them post-mortem. (Providing they were not bound in that position when they died.)

While they haven't found any ligature markings that we know of...it doesn't mean they may not have been bound and blindfolded. I thought about that when I read the article above. If Chris had been trying to remove a blindfold...it could be another reason his hair was in his hands.

[SeriouslySearching]

There is a Trane connection.That is the connection.Columbus-Clarksville-LaCrosse-Evansville-white bear Lake.I am just letting the facts speak for themselves.Interesting. So what does this r-22 do to a person?

[Ethann]

R-22 can be used almost like a knockout gas
wouldn't be too hard for someone who knows a little about HVAC to use that. Has almost a nitrious oxide effect, people do get high on it. Cargo van....victims half hammered.... roll your window down a little, the other window doesn't work, open the valve and sleepy time drunken stupor land for a short while. I doubt there would be a whole lot of traces of it either.

[SeriouslySearching]

Hmmmm...good point. No one would be looking for it certainly.

So when these people go for training, do they stay in hotels, rent apartments, or what? Do they use their own vehicles to go to training?

[Ethann]

Hmmmm...good point. No one would be looking for it certainly.

So when these people go for training, do they stay in hotels, rent apartments, or what? Do they use their own vehicles to go to training?

That would depend on who they are working for.some of them would be using a company vehicle,some would not.some might have their own transportation and get reimbursed for travel.they would probably be staying in a motel.

[hockeymom]

That would depend on who they are working for.some of them would be using a company vehicle,some would not.some might have their own transportation and get reimbursed for travel.they would probably be staying in a motel.

Thats pretty good connecting the dots. How did you even come up with the Trane thing?
I'm with you on some sort of gas or something that makes the victims pass out,but wouldn't show in an autopsy.

[shadowraiths]

While I remain unconvinced wrt the gang bit, here's an interesting read about what is considered to be among the most dangerous (and growing) gangs, and what makes them so dangerous:

The middle-aged man had fled Cambodia to save his family from the genocidal Khmer Rouge. Now, as he stalked furiously back and forth across the grimy patio behind a cramped bungalow in the Little Phnom Penh section of Long Beach, he saw a very different threat materializing -- within his own family. His 14-year-old son, gang-named Flipper, and another homeboy, Slicc, 18, were bragging to a stranger about a shoot-out.

[...]

Many Cambodian gang members became hardened to violence during their escape from the killing fields of Southeast Asia. "I remember walking and walking," recalls Little Devil, 16, describing his family's trek out of Cambodia when he was five. "If we didn't keep up, we'd be lost." Perhaps because of their past globe trotting, Cambodian gang members can be astonishingly mobile. When Long Beach cops saturated the "Anaheim corridor" this summer after a burst of shoot-outs, the Cambodian gangs vanished. "They took off for Stockton and Modesto -- maybe farther," says Mike Nen, an ethnic-Cambodian cop. Adds gang detective Sorenson: "The Hispanics sit on the corner and stare at you. The Asians might fly to Chicago."
Full article: click here (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101911118-155910,00.html)

[Ethann]

I live in clarksville tennessee.We have a Trane plant here and because there were so many vicitms in lacrosse i was able to make the connection.If a technician was doing it and he worked for a Trane contractor ,he would probably take classes in Lacrosse .

[shadowraiths]

However, If that were the case that they fell or jumped into the water, how would that explain the fact that several victims were found with their arms folded across their chest.
I've only heard of that occurring in a single case (Chris Jenkins) but anyway... I am not disputing that some of the drownings may be murders in disguise. The three drownings within days and proximity of each other (Jenkins, Noll, & Guimond), along with the fact that not only was Jenkins case quite obviously involved foul play, but also that his scent was picked up in the St. John's campus at Collegeville. Add to that, Joshua Guimond, who was a St. John's student, was last seen leaving his dorm, not a party. And then there's Michael Noll. His case, however is quite different, in that he was last seen trying to enter an elderly woman's house, and he was reportedly, quite drunk (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/110602-michael-noll-22.html). That alone, indicates that his death was very likely an accident. But anyway...

My comment wrt the alcohol-induced blackout bit is simply a cautionary not to assume that a tale of such means someone had been abducted. Imho, Nick Thompson's situation is a perfect example (i.e., they have video footage of him getting into his truck, alone).

[Ethann]

Welcome to WS, Ethann! That is quite an intriguing theory, but what reason do they have for killing the male students? What motive would an AC man have to pick on athletic college males? I guess I don't get a connection.

What is r-22? What does it do to you?


Thanks for the welcome

i also find it odd that 2 of the deaths were near the trane plant in St Paul-White Bear lake.I counted 11 victims in cities that do specialized training for employees of Trane contractors.there could be more.

[Ethann]

sorry that is 12 victims i counted where trane has classes in the midwest.i left out Cinncinati.

[nursebeeme]

This is my first post here....after four years of reading and trying to join and getting, "your email address is banned" I FINALLY contacted Admin and found out that happens with ALL yahoo address! I know many of you from steve Huff's site www.truecrimeweblog.com (http://www.truecrimeweblog.com). So hi to all friends old and new. I am so glad to finally be able to participate in this conversation. I have read every single post and link and done a little researching of my own. I also have a fraternity theory but it is a little racially sensitive. I will let you all tell me if it is okay to post (it is not disgusting or rude or anything). It especially makes sense after you listen to the friday night after dark radio show updating this case (I have not seen anyone link it yet). It has three parts. Make sure to listen to all three. It is an interview with Kristy Piel (sorry if I slaughtered her name). Some highlights from the show were (per Kristy as per the detectives) that all of the linked cases the vics were at least 90% white, same build, height, weight, gpa, and athleticism. The dicks may also reveal the reason behind the concentration in La Crosse in the near future. The Dicks have only released ten per cent of their total case findings to the general public. Kristy also states that the dicks have so much info on these cases that they can predict how many kids will go missing each month IN THE PRESENT AND THE FUTURE. She may be refering to the two new york cases and the shocking news of Nick Garza (refer back to that previous post) possibly being found underwater but his possible body having moved in the current and the water too treacherous to attempt an out and out dive. The three part update on adrs can be found here: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/smiley-face-serial-killers-update-a1/3480240596?icid=acvsv3

[nursebeeme]

:eek: More more point I failed to make about the after dark radio show update was the fact that they can predict the numbers per month as over time the numbers each month have followed a pattern....... could we perhaps get a number pattern going? For example....may 97 this many possible cases, may 98, may 99, etc?

I wonder if the numbers are higher around october, november, december? It fits with my theory if this is the case as there would be more pledges rushing the frat at this time. Once again, I will share my theory if it is okay with you all. I don't want to get kicked off after it taking four years for me to figure out how to get on here LOL :slap:

[SeriouslySearching]

Welcome to WS, Nursebeeme!! Finally, I guess I should say! :) I will go listen to those right now and thanks for posting them. It is fascinating that only ten percent of what they uncovered has been released.

[nursebeeme]

Thank you SS, for the welcome. Also, please let me know if you want me to post my theory. I have it all ready to go. I, too, found that three part interview, along with Chris Jenkins' sister's interview the most informative of all in the entire case so far.

I am not all the way on the gang side of the theory but the longer it goes on and the more facts are available, the more I am convinced. If it turns out to be a lone, traveling serial killer I will personally eat my nurse hat LOL.

[SeriouslySearching]

Go right ahead and post your theory! Most of us here have been working on theories and have been posting away. :) I am having a technical difficulty at the moment, but should be back in a bit.

Thanks for the information, Ethann. I think that is really interesting and you never know what is going to really shed light onto all of this. I would never have thought about using such a gas like that.

[nursebeeme]

Okay...here goes...and this is just a theory mind you and means no offence to any person of any color, creed, nationality, etc. I had saved my research in an email doc so bear with me.
******************************



After reading more of the Chris Jenkins docs last night involving the african american men that a witness described I went to sleep. I woke up this morning and it was still really bothering me. Please wrap your head tightly but at least entertain my thoughts:

If this murder network does exist and is organized, secretive, intelligent, networked and targeting college males could this be somehow linked to african american frats or sororities? At Kent, where I went to college, they were a big presence and a lot of reverse racism existed on campus. They were very, very secretive. http://www.straightblack.com/culture/African-American-Fraternities-Sororities/index.html (http://www.straightblack.com/culture/African-American-Fraternities-Sororities/index.html)

Could this be hazing in a murderous form???????? It would be easy to target college students if you are a student on the same campus and in the greek system (I was a pledge and know how small and subcultural the system is.)

With all the anti hazing laws and the like hazing has been driven deeply underground. Alcohol, paddling, and drinking bleach (that one happened at kent state in a black sorority while I was a student there) cannot happen as any bodily harm to pledges that comes to light will be discovered..... However, who is to say what underground hazing practices are in operation today??? http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D8103BF934A15752C0A9659582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE0D8103BF934A15752C0A9659582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) The vice president of delta sigma theta in the previous article was my RA my freshmen year and went to trial.

Could murder be the new hazing in the african american greek system? Young, white, athletic, intelligent young men are targeted. Why? Hate? Jealousy? Revenge? Did you know that the KKK used to wear a smiley on their white robes? Could it be a signiture like some sick kind of justice? ~snip~ In Blazing Saddles, when Hedley Lamar is enlisting his criminal army, the KKK members wear smiley faces and have a nice day on the back of their sheets. ~snip~ per wikipedia on smiley.

In your blog you also talked about the internet and computers and how in 97 this could have been possible but limited due to newness of the internet. I agree. However, what kind of people HAD computers in 97 or even knew how to use them and use them well? They were expensive and it was new technology. Not every home had a computer but EVERY COLLEGE DID and college students used them and networked with them I am sure more often then your average Joe impressed with online banking that was just becoming big. I think some digging on the electronic highways could net some info if this were to be the case.

If not via the computer.....fraternities and sororities are nationally and internationally linked. You have national presidents and regional presidents and chapter presidents that keep in constant contact, seminars, meetings, etc.


http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007-03-27/battle-branding (http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2007-03-27/battle-branding) the afore link is on african american fraternity branding. It has roots in the branding of slaves and once again, this fixation with slavery days is perplexing and could suggest that these members are still deeply resentful of whites. Of course it is not sanctioned (tongue in cheek) by any black frats or sorty. but at Kent that was how you could always tell frat members. It is also considered a form of HAZING.

This picture is of a latino fraternity

College boys with brands - WARNING - partial nudity (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Hearts.jpg)

Either way, thanks for hearing me out.


the urban dictionary states that the definition of BUZZKILL issomething that spoils or ruins an otherwise enjoyable event; especially when in relation to a drunk or drug induced high http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/29.gif

[Ethann]

I did not realize hinkley and minneapolis were also near their training facilities.That makes 15 deaths near a trane factory that does training for technicians and i know they do management training in Lacrosse.

[RR0004]

Welcome Nursebeeme!

Interesting theory...and I agree with you- I do believe these "accidental" drownings have been going on since the 90s.

[DeltaDawn]

Welcome to WS Nurse and Ethan.

Interesting theories Ethan as far as the geographic area that this covers being tied into Trane air conditioning and heat pumps.

Nurse, also interesting about the theory of fraternities using this as a hazing activity or a frat activity to further their own agenda. The question is were any of the vics frat members and if so what frat? I know some were not in college and at least 1 I recall, Josh Snell, had already graduated.
Which I guess goes back to their ability to stalk their victims. The detectives and Kristi have said these people were not randomly picked. Kristi mentioned the INTERNET and any articles even that could have been available on line that might give their name, etc, and possibly about a sporting event or something academic.
I think that statistically the professor has studied this to the point of being able to give a location and time that the next vic will take place. So timing is everything in this case.
I am leaning more toward a different theory, but still very similar to your frat theory. Great work Nurse and thank you for your posts and the link. I had listened to the Coast to Coast interview with Kristi the previous weekend. I am glad you posted the new interview.

[RR0004]

Welcome, Ethann. Good work...interesting link to the deaths.

[Ethann]

Welcome, Ethann. Good work...interesting link to the deaths.


Thanks. i probably should not count Hinkley ,but in the immediate area,i would say14.that is what is looks like.I have not calculated the mileage yet.I suspect the 14 disappearances are less then 15 miles away from a Trane facility.

[nursebeeme]

Just another point/thought: (bold are things that dicks leaked) If this cross country group of small pods exists and is targeting 90% white, similar build, smart, athletic, college men what kind of group could have this kind of motive? If this group has a heirarchy then who is the leader? Why are there no african american victims? Why white men? There has been, assumingly, the occasional chinese or Japanese victim. Why? Could it have been not the intended target when something fell through. Could this also account for a few of the non~college military or out of town visitors? That either the intended vic did not show in the bar, and another was taken that loosly fit the mold (these other vics that were not college students were drinking in places where college students hung out).

Just food for thought

[nursebeeme]

ethan...does this company use cargo vans? Also is there one particular area that is the "mother hub" for all of the training centers? Good theory!

[nursebeeme]

oh...and thanks DD and SS for the sweet words and the welcome.

[Silver~Bell]

No insults intended to any of the theories and theorists:

"It's hard to stop a Trane."

I can't buy into the Trane training-center theory for a variety of reasons.

One, with the length of time of these mysterious drownings spanning a decade, it would imply that a great many Trane people would be involved in criminal behavior, year after year.

In fact, it would have to be formal in nature, with a hierarchy of Trane people "passing on" the secret and recruiting other Trane employees/trainees. Some of the facilities train managers, some train technicians, some installers, etc.

If the drownings were the work of one or two Trane employees, they would be SO unlikely to be moving from center to center to center either as trainers or trainees, that quickly, that often, year after year.

The Black/ethnic fraternity theory:

There are a variety of websites similar to WS, but with a completely different agenda: Their forum members work relentlessly to link crimes and deviant behavior to ethnic, sexual, and religious groups they despise. And they have come up with...nothing...

In terms of violent, crude, deviant, peculiar, and cruel behavior, complete with hidden hazing perversions that come to light when someone dies, is injured, or "tells," I think quite a few white fraternity members could match and surpass any of the "black" or Latino frats.

The Detectives

As to the detectives and their "only 10% has been told," I have to very much wonder about their credibility now. They held their news conferences, presented their 10% to the public, supposedly presented all of their findings to the FBI (neglecting to mention the smileys?) and the involved local LE -- and were rebuffed by the FBI in no uncertain terms.

They say that after 11 years, they are out of resources -- they tried the FBI -- okay, detectives, now cough up the other 90%, please, thank you.

Just my 2 Euro's worth...

[ckhagen]

Ok, I'm going to chime in now too :)
Like Nurse, I've been reading these forums for over 4 years and tried registering several times to no avail. I think I've read almost every post here for at least 3 years, lol!

Anyhow... Like many of you, I've been highly suspect of the number of accidental drownings happening in such clustered areas. You don't see guys walking off into rivers in these kinds of numbers in other areas. It's very clustered IMO.

Also, something that keeps me interested in this case is a similar situation that happened to one of my husbands best friends from high school.

http://community.emeraldcoast.com/articles/secott_10851___article.html/body_pond.html
http://ssecott01.blogspot.com
http://nhsclass98.tripod.com/secott_shaun.html

The death of his friend really shocked us because he could swim... very, very well. He dreamed of being a Navy SEAL when he was in highschool and would practice holding his breath under water and could hold it for some 5+ minutes.

Now, of course, he was apparently drunk when this occurred, but I was never able to find out what the tox reports said.

The story (or what I know of it) was that he was at a bar (a very popular, busy little hotspot in town) with friends. They walked over to the theater, which is in the same shopping complex and from what I've heard, he was buzzed and decided it probably wasn't best for him to see the movie. His friends bought tickets and went in anyway and that's the last they saw of him. He told them he was going to sleep in the truck (they rode together IIRC). When his friends got out of the movie, they supposedly figured he must have walked home (um, yeah right! that was a completely stupid assumption IMO). Two days later, they found his body in the pond behind the movie theater, which I don't understand because there's little to no parking back there. I just wish I knew what the tox reports said, but I don't exactly want to call his parents and ask since I really don't know then well at all.

Really, he was probably drunk and passed out and fell into the pond, end of story. But... I've always had this nagging bit of me that says it's just really unbelievable and there must be more to the story.

Strangest part is... that night, I really had a craving for Waffle House of all places, which I never eat. I waited until my DH got off of work at almost midnight and being the irresponsible parent that I am (j/k!), I actually dragged my two toddlers to Waffle House with me at that hour, with DH. The one 10 miles from my house smells bad, so I drove the extra 4ish miles to the one directly across the street from the pond where he drowned, at roughly that same hour, by our estimates. Haunts me to this day. It was probably one of the strangest things I've ever done in my life and he died right there in eyeshot of us (it was dark though), likely while we ate.

Anyhow, that's one of the many things that brings me here, likely not related to this case, but similar in nature.

[Silver~Bell]

One more remark, to follow up on a previous poster's remarks about cold-water drowning: If you have ever fallen into or even voluntarily entered cold water, you will find it can render even a strong swimmer incapable of response. Very, very quickly the survival thrashing can be stopped, or prevented in the first place, even in shallow water.

[nursebeeme]

[quote=Silver~Bell;2187391]No insults intended to any of the theories and theorists:

The Black/ethnic fraternity theory:

There are a variety of websites similar to WS, but with a completely different agenda: Their forum members work relentlessly to link crimes and deviant behavior to ethnic, sexual, and religious groups they despise. And they have come up with...nothing...

In terms of violent, crude, deviant, peculiar, and cruel behavior, complete with hidden hazing perversions that come to light when someone dies, is injured, or "tells," I think quite a few white fraternity members could match and surpass any of the "black" or Latino frats.
******************

When looking at the supposed victims and their race and the other similarities it does not, to me and in my opinion only, fit with a white fraternity. It is just a theory

I do not have a racist agenda. If I did I would not be here I would be on those other websites and not concerned with offending anyone. I am concerned that these could be connected and I wonder how.

If we are to refute all of the investigation of the two detectives we need to have a reason. They have good reps and backgrounds as well as professional history. They are professionals with a statistical professor now on their team. Perhaps they have a good plan for not releasing anything but ten percent. Christy Piehl mentioned that she knows the next data to be released....that sounds like a plan to me.

Like I said, I meant no offence with my "theory." I hope none was taken. :blowkiss:

[nursebeeme]

TOO FUNNY CKHAGEN!

Silverbell, Yes, I agree with the coldwater drowning. Add alcohol to the mix and you are decreasing your chancing of getting out the the water alive. Case by case, though, HOW did these kids end up IN the cold water when there, in several cases, was a good bit of rocks and edging before the water even started? How did they just "fall" in? It does not make sense. Nick Garza's body may have just been found IN WATER. Two similar cases LAST WEEK and the two men were found again...in the water.

[Ethann]

ethan...does this company use cargo vans? Also is there one particular area that is the "mother hub" for all of the training centers? Good theory!

large air conditioning companies would have cargo vans and many of the smaller companies too.Some people would have their own vehicle and get paid for using their personal transportation.A cargo van i believe,would be the preferred vehicle for anyone in the business. A large company would also tend to work on large commercial projects ,such as schools,universities,large hotels,etc

[Silver~Bell]

[
When looking at the supposed victims and their race and the other similarities it does not, to me and in my opinion only, fit with a white fraternity. It is just a theory

I do not have a racist agenda. If I did I would not be here I would be on those other websites and not concerned with offending anyone. I am concerned that these could be connected and I wonder how.



Indeed, I am not saying you have any racist agenda, and that's why I stressed that the posters on those other websites have a completely different agenda than those of us posting on WS...what I was getting at is that they have worked relentlessly to link the suspicious drownings with the work of minorities and have come up empty -- they are really quite good at ferreting out links but failed this time, leading me to think there is no link.

I had been thinking it was an anti-Catholic group at work, but ultimately couldn't support that suspicion.

My big gripe lately with the whole situation is thinking the "nationwide gang" angle has hurt the idea of foul play in various of the individual cases, by serving as a distraction. I do think quite a few of the drownings are linked, but aren't the work of gangs but of weird individuals or pairs...also, I think the detectives ought to "put up or shut up" to reuse a gambling phrase I posted earlier...b/c I do believe copycats are starting up.

[nursebeeme]

SB, I agree with you on the copycat angle. Conversely, I also think, since they seem to have the best interests of the public at heart or have attested to as much, that there is method to their madness in dribbling out a little tiny bit.

If what they say is true this is the biggest coverage and attention (congressional as well!) this has ever gotten. I, too, am skeptical. But at the same time I also think they may have a plan for what they have already released as well as what they plan to release next (sans fbi action).

As for them "hurting the idea of foul play in other cases" I think that is exactly the oposite. This attention has (many mentions in several posts in this forum) actually gotten some of these closed cases a chance for another look....even if it is just local LE asking the dicks over for a coffee and to look at what they have. (in my opinion...but I also see what you are saying)

[Ethann]

[quote=Silver~Bell;2187391]No insults intended to any of the theories and theorists:

"It's hard to stop a Trane."

I can't buy into the Trane training-center theory for a variety of reasons.


i would never assume that every possible death is related.Some probably are.Some are probably accidents.Maybe some done by an organized network.maybe others done by someone working alone or with a small group.There is a very heavy concentration of deaths near a trane factory,and that speaks for itself.Also you have the use of a van and more coincidences that i have not even got into.you would expect to be able to make some kind of link to them given that they are such a big company,but not like this.

[nursebeeme]

Ethan,
What other coincidences have you discovered?

[nursebeeme]

ckhagen,

Was your husband's best friend in college? Was he at a party or at a bar before the movies? And you said that pond was behind the movie theater but not near the parking lot?

[nursebeeme]

ck, http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64325 link to possible Florida cases. You may want to post his case there if you think it is a possible fit. The other florida case was a pond as well.

[ckhagen]

ckhagen,

Was your husband's best friend in college? Was he at a party or at a bar before the movies? And you said that pond was behind the movie theater but not near the parking lot?

Well, he was 26, but he had fiddled around with college long enough t