Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #2

[SeriouslySearching]

Continue here:

Thread #1: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64034

[SuziQ]

Thank you!

[SeriouslySearching]

Would you mind asking a mod to close the other one, please? :)

OK where were we? LOL

[SuziQ]

Would you mind asking a mod to close the other one, please? :)

OK where were we? LOL

I'll do that right now.

We were discussing where Lilly really may have been when Chris was murdered. I too would hope that LE checked past just the mailing address of a check...but....we know how that's been going.

[SuziQ]

Shadow did say she had more info on Lilly. I think she needs to cough it up! lol.

[SeriouslySearching]

I don't dare click on the sites, but if you go look at all of the breathplay asphyxiation and drowning fetish stuff on Google...it looks very disturbing. But...I don't relate these deaths with anything sexual. There aren't any signs that sex entered into the picture with any of them and so I don't see the connection or motive being there.

[SeriouslySearching]

I wish the Detectives would release even more information now. I thought maybe today because of William Jacobson's death they would have.

By the way, thank you. :)

Where is Shadow anyway?

[SuziQ]

I don't dare click on the sites, but if you go look at all of the breathplay asphyxiation and drowning fetish stuff on Google...it looks very disturbing. But...I don't relate these deaths with anything sexual. There aren't any signs that sex entered into the picture with any of them and so I don't see the connection or motive being there.

Unless the killer is getting his jollies that way. He uses the memory of the event to please himself later? I haven't dared to go into any water fetish sites to see if sex is the motivator. Sex is usually the motivator in any fetish. I'm also having a hard time coming up with a reasonable motive if sex isn't involved.

ETA: Also, a perp could do alot of things sexually that doesn't involve touching the vic, KWIM?

[SeriouslySearching]

Yes, but for some reason...it doesn't make sense. The sex fetish part, that is. If the person has control over them enough to drown them...then they could do just about anything else if they just drugged them enough to pass out before they killed them...if it was sexual.

I think the motive has to go to who they are or who they represent as a whole. Athletic, intelligent, college men...plus status, power, money, and good looks? In other words, they have it all going for them.

Do we know if they all come from upper class backgrounds or not? I do know it was stated the Jenkins had money to spend for various things to investigate, but what about the other men?

[Blink34]

Yes, but for some reason...it doesn't make sense. The sex fetish part, that is. If the person has control over them enough to drown them...then they could do just about anything else if they just drugged them enough to pass out before they killed them...if it was sexual.

I think the motive has to go to who they are or who they represent as a whole. Athletic, intelligent, college men...plus status, power, money, and good looks? In other words, they have it all going for them.

Do we know if they all come from upper class backgrounds or not? I do know it was stated the Jenkins had money to spend for various things to investigate, but what about the other men?

SS- I believe that exactly, the group on their own represents a symbol, not individuals if you will.

[eve]

SS- I believe that exactly, the group on their own represents a symbol, not individuals if you will.

I strongly believe this too. And yes, I think I've read that a good number of these victims were, or perhaps would have been perceived to be, upper middle class. Ironically, I believe the very reasons these young men are being targeted play into why their deaths are being minimized by Joe Cop.

Eve

[Blink34]

Interesting, please expand, Eve

[Salem]

Not to break up Eve's post - I too would like to hear more.

Question - is it not reasonable to think that whoever the perp(s) is/are, they are also going into the water? It seems if they were holding Chris' head down they would have gotten wet also. Or do you think they accomplish this from the shore somehow?

Who's coming home at 4-7:00 a.m. all wet?

Salem

[eve]

Interesting, please expand, Eve

In my experience, police in college towns can have a somewhat contemptuous and even resentful view of the typical "college boy." Obviously I am generalizing, and indeed, stereotyping, but I must do that to explain myself, even while knowing that is exactly what I am accusing the police of doing. Does that make sense? I apologize to those LE officers to which this description doesn't apply. But I have observed it. I have also heard about it for the last 3 years, from my son who is a 21-year old student in Madison.

Anyway, I think some cops, especially in smaller towns, possibly partially because of their experiences with college parties, brawls, highjinx, etc. tend to think college kids are partying 24/7 and are in school only for that purpose, usually on mommy and daddy's dime. They may believe college boys are selfish, careless, rebellious, disrespectful and/or spoiled. I think they tend to dismiss these drownings as the consequence of binge drinking by preps, jocks or frat boys. I think some of them say "Hell, what do these smart azz pretty boys expect?"

Now that may sound unduly harsh and I presented it the way I did to make a point. But I really think this mindset exists within LE here. It is that element that is hindering these investigations, along with ego and public relations issues.

And, I firmly believe the killer/s shares this view of the victims. To an evil and sinister end. I think the killer is getting a huge kick out of this.

Eve

[Blink34]

In my experience, police in college towns can have a somewhat contemptuous and even resentful view of the typical "college boy." Obviously I am generalizing, and indeed, stereotyping, but I must do that to explain myself, even while knowing that is exactly what I am accusing the police of doing. Does that make sense? I apologize to those LE officers to which this description doesn't apply. But I have observed it. I have also heard about it for the last 3 years, from my son who is a 21-year old student in Madison.

Anyway, I think some cops, especially in smaller towns, possibly partially because of their experiences with college parties, brawls, highjinx, etc. tend to think college kids are partying 24/7 and are in school only for that purpose, usually on mommy and daddy's dime. They may believe college boys are selfish, careless, rebellious, disrespectful and/or spoiled. I think they tend to dismiss these drownings as the consequence of binge drinking by preps, jocks or frat boys. I think some of them say "Hell, what do these smart azz pretty boys expect?"

Now that may sound unduly harsh and I presented it the way I did to make a point. But I really think this mindset exists within LE here. It is that element that is hindering these investigations, along with ego and public relations issues.

And, I firmly believe the killer/s shares this view of the victims. To an evil and sinister end. I think the killer is getting a huge kick out of this.

Eve
Thanks Eve, I have to say unfortunately I have had personal experience in this area to have to agree that in my situation, I believe your opinion to be true. Although I am not sure so much that it is the killers hatred of this stereotype that's driving them as it is their wish to be like them.

[Blink34]

Not to break up Eve's post - I too would like to hear more.

Question - is it not reasonable to think that whoever the perp(s) is/are, they are also going into the water? It seems if they were holding Chris' head down they would have gotten wet also. Or do you think they accomplish this from the shore somehow?

Who's coming home at 4-7:00 a.m. all wet?

Salem

That's a really good question Salem. For me, I do not, I think they are unconcious by some means, or close to it, and they are thrown off a bridge in the cases that are found to be accidental drownings, personally.
I dont see them risking their own lives at the same time or perhaps we would see a double drowning here or there with this many cases.

[dairybest]

In my experience, police in college towns can have a somewhat contemptuous and even resentful view of the typical "college boy." Obviously I am generalizing, and indeed, stereotyping, but I must do that to explain myself, even while knowing that is exactly what I am accusing the police of doing. Does that make sense? I apologize to those LE officers to which this description doesn't apply. But I have observed it. I have also heard about it for the last 3 years, from my son who is a 21-year old student in Madison.

Anyway, I think some cops, especially in smaller towns, possibly partially because of their experiences with college parties, brawls, highjinx, etc. tend to think college kids are partying 24/7 and are in school only for that purpose, usually on mommy and daddy's dime. They may believe college boys are selfish, careless, rebellious, disrespectful and/or spoiled. I think they tend to dismiss these drownings as the consequence of binge drinking by preps, jocks or frat boys. I think some of them say "Hell, what do these smart azz pretty boys expect?"

Now that may sound unduly harsh and I presented it the way I did to make a point. But I really think this mindset exists within LE here. It is that element that is hindering these investigations, along with ego and public relations issues.

And, I firmly believe the killer/s shares this view of the victims. To an evil and sinister end. I think the killer is getting a huge kick out of this.

Eve

WOW! :clap: Very well defined!

Do you think the media exposure will act as a catalyst and give the killer(s) more momentum?

~dairybest

[Blink34]

WOW! :clap: Very well defined!

Do you think the media exposure will act as a catalyst and give the killer(s) more momentum?

~dairybest

At this point I think they are breathing a sigh of relief, and I do NOT think they believe LE will ever buy in and they are safe, thus Will Jacobson.

[DeltaDawn]

At this point I think they are breathing a sigh of relief, and I do NOT think they believe LE will ever buy in and they are safe, thus Will Jacobson.

I also think they are happy with the publicity..see what we can do..but like any murderer they do not want to be caught.

My question is why the geographic concentration around Minn/Wisc? There are many more deaths in that area.

[Blink34]

Personally, I think it started there and fanned out.

[SuziQ]

Personally, I think it started there and fanned out.

I tend to agree, especially since Gannon and Duarte mentioned that some of the vics were targeted through the internet. A person living in WI, can easily network with someone in New Jersey. Also while Kristi didn't know specifics, she stated, IIRC, that while the gang operates under a hiearchy, at the same time each group has it's own method. Which would explain why some of the cases have a smiley and others don't.

[eve]

Thanks Eve, I have to say unfortunately I have had personal experience in this area to have to agree that in my situation, I believe your opinion to be true. Although I am not sure so much that it is the killers hatred of this stereotype that's driving them as it is their wish to be like them.

I don't think we would really disagree. For me it feels like a love-hate thing. But definitely with a strong aura of envy.

Delta, I think maybe the killer/s either lived in this area orginally (MN-WI), work/ed or went to school here.

dairy and Blink, don't you think the recent exposure was a trigger in the Jacobson death? I think this is true whether it is the smiley face killer/s or a copy cat.

Eve

[Silver~Bell]

Okay, this woke me up last night, startled me out of sleep. It may just be totally off, but...

When bodies have been in the water, marks are obliterated.

How carefully really have they checked Will's body, may he rest in peace? Because his body was recovered very quickly compared to the others...and just as quickly the s.o.s. of "alcohol" was declared as being the problem.

HOW CAREFULLY HAVE THEY CHECKED FOR THE VERY SMALL MARKS a stun gun leaves?

If you hit someone with a stun gun, they are incapacitated. If placed in water, they will drown. No holding the head under, no strangling, etc.

I am wondering if the perps use a stun gun on them. I can recall other cases where the victims were incapacitated by a stun gun, and healthy young males were thus subdued.

[dairybest]

Eve,

I do agree. And, it is definitely conceivable that there could be parallel killers out there as well as people trying to stimulate attention by leaving graffiti.

(Off topic) Does anyone know anything about this one?


"Claremont, New Hampshire - April 25, 2008
Police in Claremont New Hampshire have identified the body of a man who was found floating in the Sugar River Thursday....."

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8226114&nav=4QcSdleL

~dairybest

[Blink34]

I havent decided yet if I think the smiley is put their by the killers or by persons "in the know" that are trying to expose them?

[Blink34]

I don't think we would really disagree. For me it feels like a love-hate thing. But definitely with a strong aura of envy.

Delta, I think maybe the killer/s either lived in this area orginally (MN-WI), work/ed or went to school here.

dairy and Blink, don't you think the recent exposure was a trigger in the Jacobson death? I think this is true whether it is the smiley face killer/s or a copy cat.

Eve

Not sure exactly yet, but I am sure it was planned.

[Salem]

I havent decided yet if I think the smiley is put their by the killers or by persons "in the know" that are trying to expose them?

Well that's a definite idea. Not sure what I think about it yet LOL, but it is a good idea because these symbols are not found at every scene OR they have not located the point of entry at every scene.

Back to the "all wet" theory. If the young men were drugged and unconscious, wouldn't there be a lot of water in the lungs? It seems if they were drugged, they would continue to reflexivly (sp?) breathe and would suck in water.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems a lot of these young men show signs of "dry" drowning, and to my non-medical mind, that just seems illogical. From Chris' situation, I think it is logical to assume his head was held under. Somebody else had to get wet. If you throw someone in, wouldn't there be evidence of bruises, etc. that would show they had hit rocks, brush, etc.? Maybe all that falls under the "no signs of foul play" analysis.

And what about the pond in Will Jacobson's case? It seems there would not be a lot of debris in a pond that would cause bruising, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out about that.

And eve - I agree that Will could have been a "ha ha." I think he was being stalked prior to the news breaking and the publicity just added to the situation. That's very sad.

You said your son was a student in WI. Please, please tell him to be very careful (I'm sure you do).

Salem

[eve]

Well that's a definite idea. Not sure what I think about it yet LOL, but it is a good idea because these symbols are not found at every scene OR they have not located the point of entry at every scene.

Back to the "all wet" theory. If the young men were drugged and unconscious, wouldn't there be a lot of water in the lungs? It seems if they were drugged, they would continue to reflexivly (sp?) breathe and would suck in water.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems a lot of these young men show signs of "dry" drowning, and to my non-medical mind, that just seems illogical. From Chris' situation, I think it is logical to assume his head was held under. Somebody else had to get wet. If you throw someone in, wouldn't there be evidence of bruises, etc. that would show they had hit rocks, brush, etc.? Maybe all that falls under the "no signs of foul play" analysis.

And what about the pond in Will Jacobson's case? It seems there would not be a lot of debris in a pond that would cause bruising, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out about that.

And eve - I agree that Will could have been a "ha ha." I think he was being stalked prior to the news breaking and the publicity just added to the situation. That's very sad.

You said your son was a student in WI. Please, please tell him to be very careful (I'm sure you do).

Salem

Also one of the NY student posters said the pond is shallow and has no current - is basically stagnant. How did Will get into the middle like he did? If he just drunkenly toppled in while walking home he wouldn't have been that far out. Doesn't make sense.

Salem, my son and his roomates at UW-Madison are so much like these victims it's scary. I have heard the victims are mostly around 5'9" - my son is 6'1" but his best friend is an athletic, burly 5'9" - they and the 4 guys they live with are all cute, fun-loving, athletic, high achievers who are also very social. And yes, they drink on the weekends - attend all the parties.

I have told him about this and send him links. Whether he takes it seriously or just thinks, "Aw, Mom!" I don't know. I think at some level my warnings about life have sunken in though, he's a real good kid and I have to trust he's being careful. He did promise to use the buddy system when out at night. We have always stressed that a great deal. And of course, they never drive while drinking - they don't drive on campus anyway. He rides a bike a lot and he and his BFF have a tandem! LOL! They are kinda famous around campus for their tandem!

This case really worries me though. For all young men in college. It hits very close to home.


Eve

[DeltaDawn]

Just a quick comment on the states the smiley's have been found..Minnesota is not one of them. They have been found in Wisc..but according to the states listed no in Minnesota.

Second could this be that the guys are actually drowned in a bucket or barrel of water in the van or close proximity to the water..thereby they are already dead when they reach the water and no more water would enter the lungs.

[hockeymom]

Okay, this woke me up last night, startled me out of sleep. It may just be totally off, but...

When bodies have been in the water, marks are obliterated.

How carefully really have they checked Will's body, may he rest in peace? Because his body was recovered very quickly compared to the others...and just as quickly the s.o.s. of "alcohol" was declared as being the problem.

HOW CAREFULLY HAVE THEY CHECKED FOR THE VERY SMALL MARKS a stun gun leaves?

If you hit someone with a stun gun, they are incapacitated. If placed in water, they will drown. No holding the head under, no strangling, etc.

I am wondering if the perps use a stun gun on them. I can recall other cases where the victims were incapacitated by a stun gun, and healthy young males were thus subdued.

Wow, I was trying to think of a possable method of rendering someone helpless,but couldn't put my finger on it. This could be it. And maybe because these are just "drunken boys",nodody would pay much attention to a small mark. What exactly are the markings like?

I will be posting a lengthy response in a bit. Josh Szostak's Dad was on our local talk radio for 3 hours today. He was very interesting. i will try to cover some key points he said.

[Salem]

Just a quick comment on the states the smiley's have been found..Minnesota is not one of them. They have been found in Wisc..but according to the states listed no in Minnesota.

Second could this be that the guys are actually drowned in a bucket or barrel of water in the van or close proximity to the water..thereby they are already dead when they reach the water and no more water would enter the lungs.

Good point. I have serious suspicions that all these young men go in the water alive. I don't think that is what is happening. I mean really, if the perp(s) have to go in the water too, wouldn't you think that they (perps) would find it just too uncomfortable? Many of these drownings are happening in the middle of winter when the water is ice cold. BUT - here's another thought - maybe they have winter wetsuits........

How uncomfortable generally is a perp willing to be to accomplish his mission, considering they are getting some sort of gratification out of all this?

My mind is spinning........

Salem

[Silver~Bell]

hockeymom, I think a stun gun can leave a small mark, like two red dots, and the width between them depends on the model of the gun used. That is where the contacts are discharging their electricity.

On a hairy man, a tanned man, or if the gun is applied out of the way, the marks could be hard to see.

[shadowraiths]

I firmly believe the killer/s shares this view of the victims.
Or... the killer(s) [assuming said exist outside of speculation] could depend upon this view. Hmmm... that I think of it, here's something else to ponder...

Richard Hlavaty was the first reported drowning case (that I could find) in La Crosse. He drowned (was murdered, actually) in La Crosse in July of 1997. Quite close, if not exactly where these other men have drowned. Since his death, there have been 7 drownings. All, in a 10 year period. Of these seven, Nathan Kapfer, Jared Dion, Lucas Homan, and Patrick Runningen were all found near riverside park (where Hlavaty's death took place). The remaining three, Anthony Skifton, Charles Blatz, and Jeff Geesey were found downstream.

What differentiates Hlavaty's death from the others was that he and his brother, James, were "chased" into the river by seven men after they got into a fight. They had both been drinking heavily and Richard's BAC was 0.271. No one was ever arrested for his death bc witness accounts were too sketchy to identify anyone. And the case was eventually closed. Here's the article that goes into that bit, btw: http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2004/04/18/news/02second.txt

From the above article, it seems a number of people were speculating that the (by then) four deaths following Hlavaty's were the result of a similar scenario (i.e., shadowy group chases drunk young men into river), which, from my read, really ticked LE off.

I ruled Hlavaty's death out of the "serial killer" scenario, simply bc it involved both a witness and the claim that his tragic death was the result of, for all practical purposes, a "bar room brawl."

Iow if it is possible the two detectives think these seven men developed a taste for killing? If so, I personally, highly doubt that to be the case. At best, I could see the two October deaths that same year (the 3rd & the 20th, respectively) to have been a result of some sort of revenge killing. Though, even that seems slim, since the Hlavaty's were visitors, as opposed to residence of La Crosse.

Anyway, just some more fodder for the cannons... Fire away! ^_~

[Cirrus]

My first thought in these cases has always been stun gun. In addition - think about it. With the water doing what water does to a body, who's to say that the small marks (which can be hard to see on a body that HASN'T been underwater for days/weeks) would even be visible at all?

I know William Jacobson was only underwater for three days, but when they pulled him out they were at first only "tentatively" identifying him - which leads me to believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in just those three days, his body had become difficult to identify.

Also, in the school newspaper this morning, it was reported that Jacobson had no bruising at all, and thus they were ruling out foul play. To me, this seems completely counter-intuitive. Had he stumbled down the incline and somehow managed to go unconscious and wind up in the pond, presumably he would've HAD to hit SOMETHING on his way down. And since, according to the last person that talked to him, he wasn't that drunk - presumably he would've had to hit his head in a fall like that in order to be out enough to actually drown.

If the theory is that he fell in (down an incline) while walking home, the lack of injuries/bruises makes no sense at all.

[hockeymom]

For anyone interested you can listen to the radio show with Josh Szostak's father at this link
http://www.wgy.com/pages/onair/onair_roney.html

A key point that he revealed and LE has totally discounted,is that Josh was wearing a hoodie type sweatshirt when last seen. (remember this is upstate NY in December). It was black and white with skull and cross bone on it. I believe it was Southpole brand. When his body was found last week,he was missing this sweatshirt,along with a watch,and I believe a necklace.
Wouldn't that be important information to at least consider? Why wasn't that released to the press? Why would Josh willingly remove his outer garment in the middle of the winter?

In regard to the smiley face found at the Port,Albany PD will run tests on the paint to see how fresh it is,but still have dismissed the case and claim the 2 NYC detectives have "no credability"

The dogs tracked Josh's scent to one block away from his car. LE wants us to believe he then turned around and either walked or willingly got in a car and turned around and went down to the river!!

I know there are some of you who will take issue with this,but,Bill Szostak was asked if he used a psychic at all. His story is pretty amazing. He said in desperation,he called a local psychic(I think I know which one. She is a very well known in the area and if someone doen't know better they would call her. I can't say she is a fraud,but she is not very credable). Anyway,she did mislead him,and he was very bitter.Sometime in March, a woman, contacted him. She wants no publicity,no money. She is a medium and told him many things that have now come true. Even the Albany detective working the case is a believer. He did not reveal details,but she did feel his son was murdered.
When the body was found last week,the detective told Mr. Szostak to forget everything he was told by the medium and go on with his life.
When you listen to this man,you can tell,he is not someone who would normally go for this psychic stuff. He is quite the skeptic,but he is absolutly convinced that this particular woman is the real deal.
Sorry this is so long,but it was a long show.
Also,Mr. Szostak may be on Greta tonight.

[SuziQ]

I would have to go back and compare the cases. But IIRC, some were not exactly dressed the same when found vs when they were last seen. And in one case they were dressed completely different. Bad witness memory, media reporting or more?

I think any suspicious marks would have been missed because no one of authority cared to look for any. It's been mentioned that the Jenkins and the investigator found marks that they believe were not caused by Chris being in the water. If the poster who posted that info could identify themselves again and elaborate more, it would be greatly appreciated. I would like to follow up on what those marks were.

The stun gun theory is a good one. I'm also inclined to think these may be dry drownings. Water is a good form of torture. Think waterboarding.

I also think that the key to the internet connection, informants and the info Gannon and Duarte are talking about leads back to Lilly and the drowning fetish website he posted on.

[Cirrus]

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.

[Blink34]

For anyone interested you can listen to the radio show with Josh Szostak's father at this link
http://www.wgy.com/pages/onair/onair_roney.html

A key point that he revealed and LE has totally discounted,is that Josh was wearing a hoodie type sweatshirt when last seen. (remember this is upstate NY in December). It was black and white with skull and cross bone on it. I believe it was Southpole brand. When his body was found last week,he was missing this sweatshirt,along with a watch,and I believe a necklace.
Wouldn't that be important information to at least consider? Why wasn't that released to the press? Why would Josh willingly remove his outer garment in the middle of the winter?

In regard to the smiley face found at the Port,Albany PD will run tests on the paint to see how fresh it is,but still have dismissed the case and claim the 2 NYC detectives have "no credability"

The dogs tracked Josh's scent to one block away from his car. LE wants us to believe he then turned around and either walked or willingly got in a car and turned around and went down to the river!!

I know there are some of you who will take issue with this,but,Bill Szostak was asked if he used a psychic at all. His story is pretty amazing. He said in desperation,he called a local psychic(I think I know which one. She is a very well known in the area and if someone doen't know better they would call her. I can't say she is a fraud,but she is not very credable). Anyway,she did mislead him,and he was very bitter.Sometime in March, a woman, contacted him. She wants no publicity,no money. She is a medium and told him many things that have now come true. Even the Albany detective working the case is a believer. He did not reveal details,but she did feel his son was murdered.
When the body was found last week,the detective told Mr. Szostak to forget everything he was told by the medium and go on with his life.
When you listen to this man,you can tell,he is not someone who would normally go for this psychic stuff. He is quite the skeptic,but he is absolutly convinced that this particular woman is the real deal.
Sorry this is so long,but it was a long show.
Also,Mr. Szostak may be on Greta tonight.

OK- I am BITTERLY tired of this so here goes, strap in-

There is an INVESTIGATIVE standard as to how cases are worked, both in process and classification.

The scene indicated he did not in all probability, get on his own where he was found, corroberated by K9.

He left ALONE, and his cell phone was found AT THE SCENE OF A CRIME, that coincidently, he went missing but the stolen car did not, as his was found as well. Corroberating the possibility he did not leave on his own.

There was no evidence of mental problems or potential for suicide.

He is found in an UNLIKELY area given the incident, and is MISSING JEWELRY..

This is a missing person's case, turned into a possible criminal investigation period... The reason this keeps happening to be closed before it's really even worked is because the BURDEN for subpeonas for records, interviewing witnesses, etc. is different in a criminal investigation. Prior to that classification, nobody really has any investigative power.

These victims and their families deserve 2 things:
1) everyone doing everything in their power to give them the answers they need.
2) everyone doing everything in their power to stop these murders, and change the LE process in investigating them from the onset.

[Silver~Bell]

Thanks hockeymom for that information about Mr. Szostak's remarks. I personally believe sometimes people can "know" information through some manner of "ESP" for lack of a better term.

Thanks Cirrus for your active detective work! It's so valuable to have the observations and knowledge of someone actually on the scene.

SuziQ do you think they could have been stunned, then partially suffocated before being put in the water after a second stun? Don't forget that the water was so cold that it quickly shuts down your systems.

[Blink34]

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.

Thanks Cirrus- is WJ's autopsy due today?

[shadowraiths]

FBI News Statement. They have to be saying this in order to protect the investigation, right?
Imho, their statement is not the least bit surprising.

For starters, for the "gang" bit does not fit the pattern of gang killings. Most of which involve a firearm or knives. That, and the victims of these kinds of murders are primarily rival gang members or innocent bystanders who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time during a drive-by shooting. The most horrendous in recent history was the death of a 4-year-old girl who was killed in March of last year. (click here (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20070310/ai_n18711175)) And other are victims of B&E.

Furthermore, if we are to believe the nation wide smiley face gang bit, then, imnsho, the serial killer moniker should be completely discarded. At best, and assuming these detectives are even remotely on to something, they would be characterized as "thrill killers" as opposed to "serial killers." Although Hickey argues that anyone who "kills over time" should be classified as a "serial killer," imho, broad-brushing multiple (possible) murders is a dangerous proposition. But anyway...

And finally, if they are so certain these cases are the result of some group of individuals, then their next step (imho) is to provide the FBI with a VICAP Crime Analysis Report for all of the individuals they believe to be a victim to this so-called gang. Esp considering that the VICAP CAR has 188 data points from which solid stats can be applied to rule these young men in or out of the equation.

[SuziQ]

Thanks for this article, it's a good one. Well the problem I see is the criteria LE is using to determine whether a serial killer is involved in the four cases discussed. It's a bit flawed. In bold is by me.

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2004/04/18/news/02second.txt

In reviewing the last four river deaths, police said here's why they and the medical examiner think the deaths were not caused by a serial killer or the same person or persons:

Absolutely no trauma before the drownings. In most homicides, usually there is some trauma.

No evidence of struggle.

I agree with the above two.

None of the victims knew each other.

Serial Killer victims rarely know each other.

No robbery. Victims had identification, wallets or money on them.

Robbery is usually not a motive for serial killers.

Some of the victims were big, strong men.

Lmao! Was that based on a scientific gathering of information? I doubt this is listed anywhere by a legit criminal psychologist and or profiler.

[Blink34]

OK- I am BITTERLY tired of this so here goes, strap in-

There is an INVESTIGATIVE standard as to how cases are worked, both in process and classification.

The scene indicated he did not in all probability, get on his own where he was found, corroberated by K9.

He left ALONE, and his cell phone was found AT THE SCENE OF A CRIME, that coincidently, he went missing but the stolen car did not, as his was found as well. Corroberating the possibility he did not leave on his own.

There was no evidence of mental problems or potential for suicide.

He is found in an UNLIKELY area given the incident, and is MISSING JEWELRY..

This is a missing person's case, turned into a possible criminal investigation period... The reason this keeps happening to be closed before it's really even worked is because the BURDEN for subpeonas for records, interviewing witnesses, etc. is different in a criminal investigation. Prior to that classification, nobody really has any investigative power.

These victims and their families deserve 2 things:
1) everyone doing everything in their power to give them the answers they need.
2) everyone doing everything in their power to stop these murders, and change the LE process in investigating them from the onset.

You know, just dawned on me, maybe they took the jewelry to show proof of Josh's death- big sigh

[SeriouslySearching]

Eve,

I do agree. And, it is definitely conceivable that there could be parallel killers out there as well as people trying to stimulate attention by leaving graffiti.

(Off topic) Does anyone know anything about this one?


"Claremont, New Hampshire - April 25, 2008
Police in Claremont New Hampshire have identified the body of a man who was found floating in the Sugar River Thursday....."

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8226114&nav=4QcSdleL

~dairybestWelcome to WS, Dairybest! Yes, this is another one that sounds suspicious. Thanks for posting it! It is odd the father didn't report him missing tho. We don't know any circumstances of where he was before. Still...drowning and no signs of foul play certainly fit.

[SuziQ]

An interesting snippet I found:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2004/04/18/news/02second.txt

John Steers, La Crosse County medical examiner, said the investigations ``covered all the bases.'' He said the victims were tested for everything including the presence of a date rape drug, which was not found in the bodies.

[SeriouslySearching]

Shadow~ Another reason I ruled Hlavaty's death out of the equation, they stated they were being pelted with rocks etc. while being chased. Bruises on his Hlavaty's body verified this as did his brother's statement. It would appear that it was a fight which carried over into the water in that particular case.

[Blink34]

Welcome to WS, Dairybest! Yes, this is another one that sounds suspicious. Thanks for posting it! It is odd the father didn't report him missing tho. We don't know any circumstances of where he was before. Still...drowning and no signs of foul play certainly fit.

For real- ugh?? Do we have a New Hampshire possible vics thread?

[Blink34]

Shadow~ Another reason I ruled Hlavaty's death out of the equation, they stated they were being pelted with rocks etc. while being chased. Bruises on his Hlavaty's body verified this as did his brother's statement. It would appear that it was a fight which carried over into the water in that particular case.

I tend to agree, only thing though, Josh Snell (hope I got this right) was chased as well.

[Blink34]

[quote=SuziQ;2180595]Thanks for this article, it's a good one.


That article may be old or did they miss that Jared Dion, Luke Holman and one other wrestled together on the same team in HS?

[shadowraiths]

You know, just dawned on me, maybe they took the jewelry to show proof of Josh's death- big sigh
I'm not so sure about this bit. From my read, enough odd circumstances surround his death to raise the reasonable possibility that he was murdered. Whether said jewelry was stolen or not.

[SuziQ]

Cirrus, than you for the info. It confirms my impression that the deepest part of the pond is in the middle and the perimeter around it is shallow.

Silver Bell, I think it's likely that some of the victims were dead before they were put into the water. I base that on the fact that less than a tsp of water was found in Chris Jenkins lungs, and the fact he was on his back with his arms crossed. I think he was found exactly the way he was put into the water. Also Gannon and Duarte said, paraphraising, that the victims were placed into the water and pushed out. IMO, the vics would have to be dead or completely unconcious (sp?).

[SeriouslySearching]

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.Thanks for checking that out! I agree. It sounds like he could have simply stood up or crawled to the bank from the water in this scenario. If he had to wade to the middle...it further adds to the mystery of how he got there. He would know he was walking in the water at 3:30 am and walk out. I don't understand how can LE explain this in their investigation. It appears they are not taking this into account. I hope the school and local newspapers are all over them on this point.

[SuziQ]

[quote=SuziQ;2180595]Thanks for this article, it's a good one.


That article may be old or did they miss that Jared Dion, Luke Holman and one other wrestled together on the same team in HS?

Very good point!

[shadowraiths]

That article may be old or did they miss that Jared Dion, Luke Holman and one other wrestled together on the same team in HS?
The article appears to have been written on Apr 18, 2004, prior to Lucas Homan's death (Feb 10, 2006), though right on the heels of Jared Dion's death (Apr 15, 2004).

[shadowraiths]

I don't understand how can LE explain this in their investigation.
Prolly the same way SFPD explained this (http://huguesdelaplaza.blogspot.com/). Of course, we all know that when a person commits suicide by knife, they stab themselves repeatedly, then walk several feet to the kitchen to wash said knife off before walking back to the living room to die. Sure we do. :rolleyes:

[Blink34]

Prolly the same way SFPD explained this (http://huguesdelaplaza.blogspot.com/). Of course, we all know that when a person commits suicide by knife, they stab themselves repeatedly, then walk several feet to the kitchen to wash said knife off before walking back to the living room to die. Sure we do. :rolleyes:

Did you use the word prolly as opposed to probably on purpose?

[shadowraiths]

Did you use the word prolly as opposed to probably on purpose?
Yup. It's but one of many an old habit I picked up from the juicenet (Usenet). ^_~

[hockeymom]

Well,I can tell you one common thread these cases all have for sure,LE who don't want to look outside the box and are just passing all these off as drunk college students. Even if none or only some of these cases are connected,they should all be looked at individually again. I'm frustrated,I can only imagine how their families feel.

Now another question,and forgive me for asking cause it may be totally ridiculous. Is there any kind of technique someone can use on someone where one touch and they pass out? You know Dr. Spockish? Just wondering if there is such a thing say in martial arts?

[SuziQ]

Prolly the same way SFPD explained this (http://huguesdelaplaza.blogspot.com/). Of course, we all know that when a person commits suicide by knife, they stab themselves repeatedly, then walk several feet to the kitchen to wash said knife off before walking back to the living room to die. Sure we do. :rolleyes:

Omg, that's absurd! This poor family.

[Blink34]

Yup. It's but one of many an old habit I picked up from the juicenet (Usenet). ^_~

love it, my college roomate and I invited an entire "quicker" language before the web- that's one of our words, I digress- we're kin!!

[SeriouslySearching]

Prolly the same way SFPD explained this (http://huguesdelaplaza.blogspot.com/). Of course, we all know that when a person commits suicide by knife, they stab themselves repeatedly, then walk several feet to the kitchen to wash said knife off before walking back to the living room to die. Sure we do. :rolleyes:Exactly! Where does common sense fit into their notebook of working a case anymore?! (The one you cited is not unlike Gerwing in Hilton Head, SC! http://www.nowpublic.com/world/man-linked-missing-sc-couple-commits-suicide)

[Blink34]

Omg, that's absurd! This poor family.

Shadow, you forgot about yanking your own computer out of the wall first :) Un- believable

[SeriouslySearching]

The article appears to have been written on Apr 18, 2004, prior to Lucas Homan's death (Feb 10, 2006), though right on the heels of Jared Dion's death (Apr 15, 2004).Maybe we need to comb through all news reports of these men/boys before their deaths and crossreference them, too. I do know I have come across several articles and also listings on the schools websites for the athletes. (You are prolly way ahead of me on that tho. LOL)

[Blink34]

Welcome to WS, Dairybest! Yes, this is another one that sounds suspicious. Thanks for posting it! It is odd the father didn't report him missing tho. We don't know any circumstances of where he was before. Still...drowning and no signs of foul play certainly fit.

Does he go in? I'll start the NH thread if you think.

sorry, didnt carry your entire post, I was referring to the April 25th NH vic, missing 3/21

[Blink34]

Has anyone run across Jaramy Alford's birthday anywhere? Runnng down an alias issue.

[SeriouslySearching]

2/25/1983

Name: JARAMY LYNN ALFORD. Birth Date: 2/25/1983. Current Status: Incarcerated. Location: Minnesota Correctional Facility Stillwater. Admit Date: 10/18/2006 ...

[Blink34]

Thank you SS- and you prob didnt have to look- that's how you roll :)

[SeriouslySearching]

Does he go in? I'll start the NH thread if you think.

sorry, didnt carry your entire post, I was referring to the April 25th NH vic, missing 3/21Since we are listing possibles...yes. Thanks for doing that! :) We might as well include him until we can rule him out at this point. This way people might come across new information on him.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thank you SS- and you prob didnt have to look- that's how you roll :)Gosh! I am so glad you think so highly of my instant recall n all....but I put this in Google: Jaramy Alford's birth date. :blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

Congressman calls on FBI to reopen drowning cases

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S430604.shtml?cat=1

[SuziQ]

Read the Congressman's letter to the FBI

http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/sensenbrenner%20letter%20to%20fbi.pdf (http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/sensenbrenner%20letter%20to%20fbi.pdf)

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for posting, Woofie and Suzi! The letter does show that the pressure is being applied as I assumed to be taking place behind the scenes. We will see more from other politicians in the near future. I don't think this is directly related to letters coming into his office from constituents, but more along the lines of people in influential places applying the pressure. (I still want to discourage letter writing campaigns at this point.)

http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/sensenbrenner%20letter%20to%20fbi.pdf

[eve]

Read the Congressman's letter to the FBI

http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/sensenbrenner%20letter%20to%20fbi.pdf


:clap: :clap: :clap:

Eve

[Blink34]

Thanks for posting, Woofie and Suzi! The letter does show that the pressure is being applied as I assumed to be taking place behind the scenes. We will see more from other politicians in the near future. I don't think this is directly related to letters coming into his office from constituents, but more along the lines of people in influential places applying the pressure. (I still want to discourage letter writing campaigns at this point.)

http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/sensenbrenner%20letter%20to%20fbi.pdf

Agreed, good posts all, the letter writing thing is a good idea to hold off on for now, hopefully this is the first of many

[SeriouslySearching]

My relative was a Congressional aide and I watched closely how things worked. Yes, the letters and calls were considered...but when the pressure came from their campaign contributors...things happened. The letters and calls were fielded by staff members and mentioned to the Congressman...but a polite form letter response was usually what they got.

[Randal Graves]

In my experience, police in college towns can have a somewhat contemptuous and even resentful view of the typical "college boy."

I agree. Most of the college cops here only interact with students when they're drunk or in trouble. 90% of their time is spent breaking up parties. They have a very skewed view of students and it's a shame WJ's case is being closed prematurely as a result.



When bodies have been in the water, marks are obliterated.

HOW CAREFULLY HAVE THEY CHECKED FOR THE VERY SMALL MARKS a stun gun leaves?


Doubt a stun gun was used. Whatever the case, the autopsy will probably have valuable info...


Back to the "all wet" theory. If the young men were drugged and unconscious, wouldn't there be a lot of water in the lungs? It seems if they were drugged, they would continue to reflexivly (sp?) breathe and would suck in water.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems a lot of these young men show signs of "dry" drowning, and to my non-medical mind, that just seems illogical. From Chris' situation, I think it is logical to assume his head was held under. Somebody else had to get wet. If you throw someone in, wouldn't there be evidence of bruises, etc. that would show they had hit rocks, brush, etc.? Maybe all that falls under the "no signs of foul play" analysis.

It's hard to say if he actually died from drowning because eventually some time after death the laryngeal passages relax and allow water to completely fill the lungs. After 3 full days under water, WJ's lungs were most likely full of water and so they didn't indicate whether he died from drowning or whether he was dead before entering the water.


I know William Jacobson was only underwater for three days, but when they pulled him out they were at first only "tentatively" identifying him - which leads me to believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in just those three days, his body had become difficult to identify.

Also, in the school newspaper this morning, it was reported that Jacobson had no bruising at all, and thus they were ruling out foul play. To me, this seems completely counter-intuitive. Had he stumbled down the incline and somehow managed to go unconscious and wind up in the pond, presumably he would've HAD to hit SOMETHING on his way down. And since, according to the last person that talked to him, he wasn't that drunk - presumably he would've had to hit his head in a fall like that in order to be out enough to actually drown.

If the theory is that he fell in (down an incline) while walking home, the lack of injuries/bruises makes no sense at all.

They "tentatively" IDed him because that's just how the law works. They needed definitive proof that it's the person they're looking for. He was probably pretty well preserved in that cold water.

I agree about the injuries though. And their faulty reasoning says a lot about the way this case is being handled. It wouldn't be very difficult for the perps to kill without causing visible trauma. Suffocation leaves virtually no evidence as a cause of death- except for very small pin-point hemorrhages around the eyes. Again, the autopsy will say a lot....

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.

Yeah, I saw that too today. That foot trail wasn't always there, but now that it is the possibility of him falling in by accident seems even less likely. There is maybe one spot where someone could possibly fall off the path and into the water, but it's still very unlikely. This also happens to be the area of the pond where he was found. However, it is coincidentally also the closest area of the pond to the road and one of the easiest ways to access the water.

We should get a brave person to wade in a little way to see how deep it actually is. That would be kind of creepy though.

btw, there are pics here:
http://theithacan.org/include/gallery/2008/0430_jacobson/

[RR0004]

Eve...was thinking of you...bar crawl today in Madison. All fingers and toes crossed.

Randal...great post...I always did think that over time, and with the body bloating, many signs of trauma would disappear. As far as them looking into a date rape drug or such, I was under the impression that it left the body pretty quickly. With these drownings, have they ever been able to pinpoint an actual TOD? Is there anything to say he was immediately put into the water? Could someone have dragged him towards the middle of the pond? A boat dump him later?

[SuziQ]

In bold is by me.



It's hard to say if he actually died from drowning because eventually some time after death the laryngeal passages relax and allow water to completely fill the lungs. After 3 full days under water, WJ's lungs were most likely full of water and so they didn't indicate whether he died from drowning or whether he was dead before entering the water.

Now this I find interesting. It could be that drowning has nothing to do in many of these cases.

Yeah, I saw that too today. That foot trail wasn't always there, but now that it is the possibility of him falling in by accident seems even less likely. There is maybe one spot where someone could possibly fall off the path and into the water, but it's still very unlikely. This also happens to be the area of the pond where he was found. However, it is coincidentally also the closest area of the pond to the road and one of the easiest ways to access the water.

Is the inlet/outlet cement box thing the only area where the bank is steep and is this where the vic went in?

We should get a brave person to wade in a little way to see how deep it actually is. That would be kind of creepy though.

I volunteer you! lol. :crazy:

btw, there are pics here:
http://theithacan.org/include/gallery/2008/0430_jacobson/

Pic #10 is a good one.

[RR0004]

Going back a few pages, I also agree this is about "privilege"...whether it's LEs view of the victims involved...or the actual killers.

[SuziQ]

Going back a few pages, I also agree this is about "privilege"...whether it's LEs view of the victims involved...or the actual killers.

So sad that it could be the cause of their death's and the reason their death's aren't investigated.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for posting those photos. They looked serious about the task at hand. I am sure it wasn't a pleasant experience for any of them.

I think you are correct that most of the time LE's contact with male students is to deal with the aftermath of alcohol being applied. It would tend to skew their judgement, imo.

Petechial Hemorrhaging would be present if they were suffocated first.

The pathological findings of drowning are variable and non-specific. Petechial hemorrhages involving the periorbital region and the conjunctiva have been described in many causes of death, but are thought to be exceedingly uncommon in cases of drowning.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17719193

I don't think this is something which would go undetected by MEs repeatedly in all of these cases and neither would being tased. The distinct pattern of a taser (stun gun or taser) should be quite evident on the body even if it were in the water an extended period of time, imo. The normal Taser has barbs and they would have to be removed by someone. They leave injection sites as well as reddened skin behind. A police stun gun directly applied leaves distinct burn marks.

I wish we knew details of the costume he was wearing...if it was very thick material such as velvet, vested, etc.. Was it from a costume shop or was it something he threw together? Was he wearing a heavy coat or jacket? Do we know any of those things?

[SeriouslySearching]

I wonder if they are gambling on these deaths?

The Rotten.com Dead Pool, the largest in the world[1], uses NNDB as its source of qualified celebrities, and as arbiter of their life status. Ghoulpool.us uses a variety of sources to verify celebrity status, includes a checklist on the site to measure prospective names. Points for the Ghoulpool.us game are based on age at death, cause of death, the ranking of the celebrity on a player's list, and the uniqueness of the pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_pool

An assassination market is a prediction market or dead pool where any party can place a bet (using anonymous electronic money, and pseudonymous remailers) on the date of death of a given individual, and collect a payoff if they "guess" the date accurately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_markets

[Randal Graves]

\

Petechial Hemorrhaging would be present if they were suffocated first.

The pathological findings of drowning are variable and non-specific. Petechial hemorrhages involving the periorbital region and the conjunctiva have been described in many causes of death, but are thought to be exceedingly uncommon in cases of drowning.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17719193



Yeah that's what i'm saying- if he was murdered it could have been done without causing much damage, except the red spots around his eyes. The autopsy could really change things. What if they find out his neck was broken? Or an ankle. The hemorrhages could be found or he could have traces of poisons. I don't know how long alcohol stays in a dead person's body (it can still be converted to other nontoxic chemicals by enzymes), particularly submerged in a pond, but that could be important too. We'll see...

[fran]

Ok, so they say that Jenkins was held in a van for quite awhile and tortured. How did he get into the van?

Either someone offered him a ride or he was forced into the van and maybe by more than one person.

One common thing I've found in a few of the cases, is they were able to make a phone call to someone and said someone was chasing them. How many other students that drowned or are missing, didn't have a chance to make a phone call and were chased also? We'll probably never know.

Several of the students were kicked out or asked to leave a bar.

A # of them were NOT dressed for the elements. ie they left their jacket at the bar or they were just running from one dorm to the other sort of thing.

There are also a number of them who had contact with local LE. I do not know if they're in the same locations. Just the LE had contact with them prior to them disappearing and maybe ended up drowned or still missing.

I came across another student missing from campus who drowned, no drinking and he had on a hoody. He is the only non white suspected of being connected.

There are several Asian males.

FWIW, there's only been four cases since '96 in the month of May. Hopefully this has ended for this school year.

IMHO, the ONE thing that is common for ALL of the cases, the lack of concern by LE. Their dismissive attitude about these cases. I would venture to say there are a number of these that involve foul play that has gone undetected because LE too easily dismissed it as a person having too much to drink and causing his own demise.

JMHO
fran

[DeltaDawn]

The interesting thing about these cases to me are the clues left at the site where the body entered the water. If you wanted to leave a message for LE that would be your only recourse in mocking them..where the body entered the water. You would have no idea where the body would end up due to weather and water conditions.
Until the NY detectives put this together, no one in LE was researching, or even trying to find, the spot where the body entered the water. All evidence was collected at the scene of where the body was found. This is profound thinking on the part of these detectives.

[SeriouslySearching]

Yeah that's what i'm saying- if he was murdered it could have been done without causing much damage, except the red spots around his eyes. The autopsy could really change things. What if they find out his neck was broken? Or an ankle. The hemorrhages could be found or he could have traces of poisons. I don't know how long alcohol stays in a dead person's body (it can still be converted to other nontoxic chemicals by enzymes), particularly submerged in a pond, but that could be important too. We'll see...On Alphonse Michael Barbiere's case here, we have extensively gone through BAC and BAL in response to TOD scenarios. His case involved hypothermia as opposed to drowning, but we covered a lot of ground in the breakdown of alcohol there.

Yes, the autopsy results and tox screen will be interesting in Jacobson's case. I wonder if we will be privy to those.

[DeltaDawn]

Ok, so they say that Jenkins was held in a van for quite awhile and tortured. How did he get into the van?

Either someone offered him a ride or he was forced into the van and maybe by more than one person.

One common thing I've found in a few of the cases, is they were able to make a phone call to someone and said someone was chasing them. How many other students that drowned or are missing, didn't have a chance to make a phone call and were chased also? We'll probably never know.

Several of the students were kicked out or asked to leave a bar.

A # of them were NOT dressed for the elements. ie they left their jacket at the bar or they were just running from one dorm to the other sort of thing.

There are also a number of them who had contact with local LE. I do not know if they're in the same locations. Just the LE had contact with them prior to them disappearing and maybe ended up drowned or still missing.

I came across another student missing from campus who drowned, no drinking and he had on a hoody. He is the only non white suspected of being connected.

There are several Asian males.

FWIW, there's only been four cases since '96 in the month of May. Hopefully this has ended for this school year.

IMHO, the ONE thing that is common for ALL of the cases, the lack of concern by LE. Their dismissive attitude about these cases. I would venture to say there are a number of these that involve foul play that has gone undetected because LE too easily dismissed it as a person having too much to drink and causing his own demise.

JMHO
fran


Fran in this latest case in NY..Josh's father received his cell-phone back with all text messages etc erased. He doesn't know if LE did that or the perps. He knows the last message went out to one of his son's friends parents in Long Island. He doesn't have a record of that text. Someone on the call-in show was telling him how to use the Sim card in the phone to get that info.

[SeriouslySearching]

The interesting thing about these cases to me are the clues left at the site where the body entered the water. If you wanted to leave a message for LE that would be your only recourse in mocking them..where the body entered the water. You would have no idea where the body would end up due to weather and water conditions.
Until the NY detectives put this together, no one in LE was researching, or even trying to find, the spot where the body entered the water. All evidence was collected at the scene of where the body was found. This is profound thinking on the part of these detectives.This is why I think they were not a taunt for LE, but a marker for other "players" in the area instead. They were never meant to be found by the detectives, imo.

[SuziQ]

I was going to post an update to the Congressman's letter, that KSTP said they were going to have at 6PM. But their website is flat out down. Says Service is unavailable. Do you think they got slammed by traffic?

[SeriouslySearching]

Fran, they are using the information gained from the PI on the Jenkins' case about a man or men taking him into the parking garage and putting him in a cargo van. This was backed up somewhat by a piece of what they feel to be of the red feather from his costume found in the garage.

[SeriouslySearching]

I was going to post an update to the Congressman's letter, that KSTP said they were going to have at 6PM. But their website is flat out down. Says Service is unavailable. Do you think they got slammed by traffic?Could be or could be someone is messing with them, too. :rolleyes: There are people who are not happy about this investigation.

[Blink34]

This is why I think they were not a taunt for LE, but a marker for other "players" in the area instead. They were never meant to be found by the detectives, imo.

I agree, but I am also considering it may have been "tattling" on their own

[SeriouslySearching]

I agree, but I am also considering it may have been "tattling" on their ownTo me, it wouldn't make sense in that context tho...unless they went back later to add them. Is this what you are thinking?

[Blink34]

Fran in this latest case in NY..Josh's father received his cell-phone back with all text messages etc erased. He doesn't know if LE did that or the perps. He knows the last message went out to one of his son's friends parents in Long Island. He doesn't have a record of that text. Someone on the call-in show was telling him how to use the Sim card in the phone to get that info.

He can also use an attorney to subpoena it- other than the that LE can request it via subpoena as well- goes back to what I said earlier, had this been a potential criminal investigation, they would have that info already- seems like that would be an important determining factor to rule out foul play, no? Did anyone ever get prosecuted for the stolen car? Anyone print it?

[Blink34]

To me, it wouldn't make sense in that context tho...unless they went back later to add them. Is this what you are thinking?

Yes, that is what I am thinking, possibly after the body was found. Why would you go to all that trouble to have the body far away from where it went in and then mark it?

[SeriouslySearching]

I have always felt they marked it immediately as proof of their "handiwork" myself...and the reason being for others in their "group" to see.

[Cirrus]

SuziQ - Yes, the part by the cement box is the only place where the embankment is steep enough that one could conceivably tumble down. I don't know for sure where he went in.

Only thing is, though, when I was down there earlier - even right there, the water seems really really shallow. I clearly didn't wade in to see - but I really don't think it could be more than 6 inches deep.

[eve]

Eve...was thinking of you...bar crawl today in Madison. All fingers and toes crossed.

Randal...great post...I always did think that over time, and with the body bloating, many signs of trauma would disappear. As far as them looking into a date rape drug or such, I was under the impression that it left the body pretty quickly. With these drownings, have they ever been able to pinpoint an actual TOD? Is there anything to say he was immediately put into the water? Could someone have dragged him towards the middle of the pond? A boat dump him later?

Awwww, thanks RR. :blowkiss: Bar crawl? Oh, be still, my heart. I will be calling my ds. They just don't think they are vulnerable at that age, ya know?

Eve

[Blink34]

I have always felt they marked it immediately as proof of their "handiwork" myself...and the reason being for others in their "group" to see.
Maybe, just not feeling sure either way. Maybe it started as others were claiming others deeds?

[SeriouslySearching]

I wonder if they are gambling on these deaths?

The Rotten.com Dead Pool, the largest in the world[1], uses NNDB as its source of qualified celebrities, and as arbiter of their life status. Ghoulpool.us uses a variety of sources to verify celebrity status, includes a checklist on the site to measure prospective names. Points for the Ghoulpool.us game are based on age at death, cause of death, the ranking of the celebrity on a player's list, and the uniqueness of the pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_pool

An assassination market is a prediction market or dead pool where any party can place a bet (using anonymous electronic money, and pseudonymous remailers) on the date of death of a given individual, and collect a payoff if they "guess" the date accurately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_marketsIn case you missed it. :eek:

[SuziQ]

Video about the Congressman's letter is up. Video is on the right side of the page.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S430604.shtml?cat=1

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, Suzi! :)

[Silver~Bell]

Going against the flow here...

Not to rile anyone...just like everyone here, this is just IMO...but if the retired NY detectives can't come up with with more, I'm leaning towards unrelated crimes and accidents being the reason for these deaths.

Not saying there weren't some victims of foul play, but by individual criminals or pairs, not a gang...for me it's just not adding up anymore, especially the concurrent drownings in different towns, and especially the smiley-face angle...b/c criminals and kids use the smilies all the time, I mean, look at the posts even on this and every forum and IM, smilies galore...there was just a case not long ago where those 2 thugs escaped prison and left that taunting "thank you" note to the guard (who later commited suicide) with a smiley shooting the bird...there are smilies all over as graffiti.

Most troubling to me is the timeline, the decade+ -long nature of the deaths, and the lack of anything more as evidence from the detectives, as well as the flat-out statement from the FBI that these are unrelated.

I think the latest death was perhaps a copycat type of thing...I do think some of these young men certainly met with foul play, but no longer think of "the Smiley Face Gang" being involved.

[SuziQ]

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8254534&nav=4QcS

Albany police believe a painting left near the area where Joshua Szostak was last seen is a hoax. (more at link)

[shadowraiths]

17-year-old Brian Carrick is listed on the Commonalities page. He went Missing on December 20, 2002 after leaving Val's (where he also worked). Although his body has never been found, it appears he was murdered.

Terry Carrick does regret, however, that no adults at Val's examined the watery blood found in and near a walk-in produce cooler early Saturday morning before a manager, assuming it was meat drippings, told a stock boy to mop it up. Police also found blood, later identified as from Brian Carrick, on the cooler's outside and inside walls and on boxes that had been thrown in the compactor.
http://boards.aetv.com/thread.jspa?threadID=700004712

http://cbs2chicago.com/northsuburbanbureau/Brian.Carrick.William.2.337589.html

[SeriouslySearching]

The smiley faces aren't the only thing tying them together. Even if we disregard those (which could be just vandal graffiti in the areas), there are other things the detectives say they are not releasing. I agree some could very well be accidents and other could have different causes for these men to have accidently fallen into the rivers etc. There could be copycats among them, too. Still...you can't deny the multitude of these happening in the same areas.

I am not saying their theory is altogether correct, but I do think these deaths should have been investigated much better. If it means they are going to review and figure out exactly what took place before the drownings...I think it is a good thing. They should take it a step further and examine their computers for other evidence which I am sure they did not do in the original investigations.

By the way, Silver...Jacobson's isn't the only body recovered since this story broke. I think we are up to 4 now?

[SeriouslySearching]

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8254534&nav=4QcS

Albany police believe a painting left near the area where Joshua Szostak was last seen is a hoax. (more at link)I think I would have to agree with that. It didn't look like the others if you will notice on our photo thread. The circle was used as the smile part.

I also think the blue one at Ithaca was a hoax.

[DeltaDawn]

The smiley faces are only in some of the locations..which means that portion of the group uses them as a symbol. To me, that is an easily defined symbol for the rest of the group, not so much for LE or the public in general because of it's commonality. But what better symbol that would not draw attention, due to that fact.

I am not ready to totally discount a group effort in this. There are many factors that point in that direction ..and we don't have all the info the from the detectives.

It is far fetched and bizarre..but so are most serial killers, gang rapes and any other situations where several people conspire for one goal that appears twisted and abnormal to others.

These detectives had an illustrious career in NY PD. Why would they tarnish this now with outlandish claims..that makes less sense to me then a group of killers who band for one intent. Groups of killers are actually prevalent in history. The James gang, the Mafia, etc. Gangs of killers have been an age old problem. Today with the INTERNET they would have the chance to flourish across states and countrys. We need to open our minds and think outside the box.

[Cirrus]

I've talked to more people about the smiley at Ithaca. It wasn't even a hoax - it's been there since September. It's just a bad coincidence.

[SeriouslySearching]

Exactly, DD. It was the reason I brought up the Dead Pool. It is definitely outside the box, but evidently a reality in our world.

Just when I think our research has covered all the depravity that could go on...something pops up in certain investigations which always blow me away. You cannot say it can't happen or it won't happen...because they will prove you wrong everytime.

[SeriouslySearching]

I've talked to more people about the smiley at Ithaca. It wasn't even a hoax - it's been there since September. It's just a bad coincidence.Thanks, Cirrus! Good to know! You are really an excellent reporter of the facts on his case. :) Your input is very welcomed along with others from your area.

[SuziQ]

Blink, were you wanting info on what William Jacobsen was wearing? I found it here:

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2008/04/willie-jacobson-19-ithaca-ny.html

Facts of Interest in This Case:
Name/age: William ("Willie") Jacobson (originally from St. Paul)
College: Ithaca College, Ithaca
Major: writing
Physical Description: white male, 5’9” tall, 165 lbs., thin build, black wavy hair, goatee. Wearing Shakespeare costume consisting of white long-sleeved dress shirt, navy blue vest, black dress pants, and black dress shoes.
Last seen: 4/27/08, sometime between 3:30 and 4:00 am
Recovered: 4/30/08
Cause of death: pending investigation
Manner of death: pending investigation
Injuries: no signs of foul play or trauma
Air temperature: in the 40s

[SeriouslySearching]

That was me, Suzi and thanks! I was trying to get an idea of what a taser or a stun gun would have to go thru as far as clothing was concerned. It didn't mention a jacket, but it said that the temp was in the 40s. Interesting. That costume could be one he put together depending on the vest and the type of shirt he wore. I doubt if he had a blousy one readily available in his closet.

If his body was in a shallow pond for all that time in the middle of campus...why wasn't he noticed before? I realize the gasses from the body will make him float up more...but if it was that shallow...the wind blowing would have created a bit of a current pushing him towards the bank of the pond...wouldn't it?

I have a challenge for Randal or someone on campus. Try getting someone with fishing experience to check out that pond. They can drop a line and tell you how deep it is without getting into the water. :)

[SuziQ]

SS, I just happen to be reading up on WJ right now. At the below link it states that the water was about 8ft deep.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2008/04/willie-jacobson-19-ithaca-ny.html

Recovery
A State Police dive team found Jacobson’s body in about eight feet of water in the Farm Road pond this morning. Acting Ithaca Police Chief Edward Vallely said there were no visible injuries on the body, and the location of the pond suggested Jacobson was taking a normal route back to his residence hall. According to college spokesperson, Dave Maley, the retention pond is just down an embankment from a sidewalk that Jacobson could have been using to get home. It is conceivable that he tumbled into the pond, said Maley, but it is "too early to know exactly what happened." Jacobson still had his wallet and his cell phone with him.

[SuziQ]

I have a challenge for Randal or someone on campus. Try getting someone with fishing experience to check out that pond. They can drop a line and tell you how deep it is without getting into the water. :)

I think our brave RG needs to put on some waders and see how far in you'd have to walk before the pond is let's say, up to your chest.

[DeltaDawn]

Also is that a retention pond..meaning water is constantly seeping in? If so that could effect where a body would float to..it wouldn't be a still pond.

Just saw your post SuziQ.. it is a retention pond..that means the water is not still. It also means that in 8 ft of water, fully clothed and if you had been stunned you would not survive at 40 degree temps..the water would be much colder and with the weight of clothing harder to swim. I wonder if his shoes or boots were still on?

[SeriouslySearching]

I think our brave RG needs to put on some waders and see how far in you'd have to walk before the pond is let's say, up to your chest.Well..someone with fishing experience would have waders, too. My ex-bf could tell you very close to how deep by the line dropped to the center of any river, lake, etc. (Obviously, a talent I never picked up and thought I would not have a need for in this lifetime. :rolleyes: )

[SeriouslySearching]

OK DD...so how did he get from the shallow part of the bank to the middle to begin with? You don't tumble into any pond and land a few feet in. Now, being a retention pond...I guess it is possible there is a trench close to the cement area where the water is probably much deeper...yes?

[dark_shadows]

My very dearest SeriouslySearching,:blowkiss:
Hello my friend!
Here is a link for you from 2003.
6 Disappearances: Coincidence Or Serial Killer?
http://www.channel3000.com/news/1973837/detail.html

Part of the article;
Since Halloween, six college-aged men have vanished -- most while walking home alone late at night after drinking at parties or bars.

Officials say the disappearances are not connected, but their families disagree.

From St. John's University west of Minneapolis to Notre Dame in South Bend, Ind., bells toll and tears flow for six young men who've vanished without a trace. Their anguished families are begging for answers and assistance from law enforcement in unraveling their heart-wrenching mysteries, 12 News investigative reporter Colleen Henry said.

"We have a sliver of hope that he's alive," Steve Jenkins said.

Three-and-a-half months ago, Steve Jenkins got the call that rocked his family's life -- his son, Chris, never made it home from a Halloween party. He was a star athlete and honor student at the University of Minnesota. Chris Jenkins was the first of six who disappeared.

Oct. 31: Friends saw the 21-year-old Jenkins, from Racine County, leaving a downtown Minneapolis bar dressed in his Halloween costume. No one's seen him since.
Nov. 6: 75 miles east, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire student Michael Noll vanished after leaving a party at the Nasty Habit tavern. It was his 22nd birthday.
Nov. 9: 75 miles west, 20-year-old Josh Guimond disappeared as he headed home from a card party in a dorm at St. John's University.
Dec. 12: 18-year-old Chad Sharon was going back to the dorm after an off-campus party near Notre Dame. There's been no trace of the northern Wisconsin teenager.
Dec. 20: 17-year-old Brian Carrick was seen walking into the Johnsburg, Ill., grocery store where he worked. No one saw him walk out.
Jan. 10: 21-year-old Nathan Herr headed home from Thursday's $10-all-you-can-drink night at a Sheboygan sports bar and vanished without a trace.Chris Jenkins' dad takes each disappearance personally.



So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

[SuziQ]

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.

DD, I'm bumping this up regarding how Shallow the entirety of the perimeter is.

[Cirrus]

There is no trench near the cement area. Even right beneath it, it's still no more than six inches-ish. You can clearly see the bottom (And this is a disgusting pond) for about three-feet from the shoreline. It's maybe ankle-to-mid-calf deep that whole time.

The cement area was the first place I checked to see if the depth looked like one could fall in and drown - but no, even if he'd tumbled in there, he'd have hit the muck and been maybe wrist/ankle deep. His knees or back or whatever (Depending on how he'd fallen) would've been wet, but it would be child's play to stand up and walk back out. Even unconscious, if he'd fallen in face-down, his body wouldn't be completely submerged, which leads me to think he wouldn't float toward the center.

Also, the cement thing is misleading - water NEVER comes in from there. There's a small spot on the OTHER side (like, the complete opposite side of the pond) that has a small trickle. But in the entire time I've been at this school (Three years, now) I've never seen water come into the pond from the cement part.

[SeriouslySearching]

That got me, Dark...."Bells toll and tears flow..." They are so accurate in their reporting.

Every single one of the young men we are talking about today are children of parents who dreamed along with them of their futures. They had crossed the barriers of college, grades, and circumstance. They were well on their way to looking forward to graduates, good jobs, and grandchildren only to have it all wiped out by a senseless death. So many of them just taken in their prime and with so many unanswered questions. Hell on earth for any parent, but they are coming in droves. How can that be?

[SeriouslySearching]

There is no trench near the cement area. Even right beneath it, it's still no more than six inches-ish. You can clearly see the bottom (And this is a disgusting pond) for about three-feet from the shoreline. It's maybe ankle-to-mid-calf deep that whole time.

The cement area was the first place I checked to see if the depth looked like one could fall in and drown - but no, even if he'd tumbled in there, he'd have hit the muck and been maybe wrist/ankle deep. His knees or back or whatever (Depending on how he'd fallen) would've been wet, but it would be child's play to stand up and walk back out. Even unconscious, if he'd fallen in face-down, his body wouldn't be completely submerged, which leads me to think he wouldn't float toward the center.

Also, the cement thing is misleading - water NEVER comes in from there. There's a small spot on the OTHER side (like, the complete opposite side of the pond) that has a small trickle. But in the entire time I've been at this school (Three years, now) I've never seen water come into the pond from the cement part.Excellent job. So this should be a "no brainer" for LE. How can they justify their automatic response?!

[dark_shadows]

That got me, Dark...."Bells toll and tears flow..." They are so accurate in their reporting.

Every single one of the young men we are talking about today are children of parents who dreamed along with them of their futures. They had crossed the barriers of college, grades, and circumstance. They were well on their way to looking forward to graduates, good jobs, and grandchildren only to have it all wiped out by a senseless death. So many of them just taken in their prime and with so many unanswered questions. Hell on earth for any parent, but they are coming in droves. How can that be?
Thank-you my very dearest SeriouslySearching.

So much Love and Respect for you,
dark_shadows

[SuziQ]

Complete list of National and international coverage. Websleuths is on page 5.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/Chris_Jenkins_Link_Report.pdf

[SeriouslySearching]

It is so heartbreaking and every parent deserves answers. I understand that some will never come. I also understand that some seek where answers are there, but they don't want to see them. In the case of these young men, I find the answers they have been given are simply not good enough.

[shadowraiths]

Piggybacking off this post:

Here is a link for you from 2003.
6 Disappearances: Coincidence Or Serial Killer?
http://www.channel3000.com/news/1973837/detail.html

Part of the article;
Since Halloween, six college-aged men have vanished -- most while walking home alone late at night after drinking at parties or bars.

Officials say the disappearances are not connected, but their families disagree.

From St. John's University west of Minneapolis to Notre Dame in South Bend, Ind., bells toll and tears flow for six young men who've vanished without a trace.

[...]
Oct. 31: Friends saw the 21-year-old Jenkins, from Racine County, leaving a downtown Minneapolis bar dressed in his Halloween costume. No one's seen him since.
Nov. 6: 75 miles east, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire student Michael Noll vanished after leaving a party at the Nasty Habit tavern. It was his 22nd birthday.
Nov. 9: 75 miles west, 20-year-old Josh Guimond disappeared as he headed home from a card party in a dorm at St. John's University.
Dec. 12: 18-year-old Chad Sharon was going back to the dorm after an off-campus party near Notre Dame. There's been no trace of the northern Wisconsin teenager.
Dec. 20: 17-year-old Brian Carrick was seen walking into the Johnsburg, Ill., grocery store where he worked. No one saw him walk out.
Jan. 10: 21-year-old Nathan Herr headed home from Thursday's $10-all-you-can-drink night at a Sheboygan sports bar and vanished without a trace.Fwiw, and imho, Carrick can be ruled out of the serial killer bit. Since his death appears involve an employee where he worked.

Police also found blood, later identified as from Brian Carrick, on the cooler's outside and inside walls and on boxes that had been thrown in the compactor.http://boards.aetv.com/thread.jspa?threadID=700004712

http://cbs2chicago.com/northsuburbanbureau/Brian.Carrick.William.2.337589.html

I still cannot help but to wonder if Lilly was in some way involved in the other cases...

While LE claims he was not in the area around the time of Chris' death, he most certainly was fairly close shortly there after (and I suspect longer than that). He was in St. Peters MO (only an 8 hour drive from Minneapolis) in March of 2003. And, since he was charged with harassment, I would argue that he was there well before. Which would have situated him in the vicinity during Jenkins disappearance and later death.

Additionally, take a look at the following cases, they're in approx sixty mile radius of Minneapolis.

NB: Chad Sharon & Nathan Herr excluded due to geographic location, and Brian Carrick excluded as per above linked article regarding his murder. Christopher Nordby
Missing: November 7, 2001
Last seen: At work
Location: Minneapolis MN
Status: body recovered (February 11, 2002)

Christopher Jenkins:
Missing: October 31, 2002
Last seen: Lone Tree bar
Location: Minneapolis MN
Status: body recovered (February 27, 2003)

Michael Noll
Missing: November 6, 2002
Last seen: Nasty Habit Saloon
Location: Eau Claire
[Eau Claire is approx 1¾ hours E of Minneapolis]
Status: body recoverd (August 19, 2003)

Josh Guimond
Missing: November 09, 2002
Last seen: Leaving his dorm
Location: Collegeville MN
[collegeville is approx 1½ hours NW of Minneapolis]
Status: still missing

Jeremy Stienkeoway
Missing: January 20, 2003
Last seen: at Grand Casino with unidentified man (captured on Casino's video)
Location Hinckley MN
[Hinckley is approx 1½ hours N of Minneapolis]
Status: body recovered (April 10, 2003)We know Jenkins wasn't drunk by any stretch of the imagination. Nordby would not have been either. Nor would Guimond. That's 4 out of the 5 who disappeared within three months, and three of the young men disappeared within days of each other. And the last one in the above list (Stienkeoway) raises more than a few interesting questions. The least of which, who was on the video???

[SeriouslySearching]

Complete list of National and international coverage. Websleuths is on page 5.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/Chris_Jenkins_Link_Report.pdf:) Nice to be mentioned. (They should realize WS is one of the better sites tho. :P)

[SuziQ]

:) Nice to be mentioned. (They should realize WS is one of the better sites tho. :P)

They absolutely should!

[SuziQ]

Shadow, I can tell you by looking at Chris Jenkin's case file that it appears the only reason Lilly was excluded was based on address verification for his disability checks through SSA. IMO, that doesn't mean he wasn't near Chris' location at the time of his murder.

ETA: I really feel that Lilly is the informant that's giving info to Gannon and Duarte and the drowning fetish site he posted on with Pat Brown is the internet connection here.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/mpdcasefile.pdf

[SeriouslySearching]

I agree the one should be ruled out as it does appear to be unrelated, Shadow. Yet the problem I am having with Lilly as a suspect means that the other deaths are totally unrelated. Lilly has no viable "following" or relation to gang or group related activities that we are aware of and from what I have read...he doesn't have the intelligence to set it all up. It leaves me at a loss if he is responsible in the deaths that you have outlined.

[SuziQ]

I wouldn't assume that Lilly was a "leader" in this. In fact I'm thinking he was low on the totem pole. When a gang is referred to here, IMO, it's not in the traditional gangbanger sense. It's more like a club or group that networks.

Also, the Jenkins family and the PI thought he was a very likely suspect and they are the ones who gave the tip to LE.

[shadowraiths]

I agree the one should be ruled out as it does appear to be unrelated, Shadow. Yet the problem I am having with Lilly as a suspect means that the other deaths are totally unrelated. Lilly has no viable "following" or relation to gang or group related activities that we are aware of and from what I have read...he doesn't have the intelligence to set it all up. It leaves me at a loss if he is responsible in the deaths that you have outlined.
I don't see the guy as a master mind, per se. However considering the online community in which he participated (which, from Brown's description included online role-play), I could see someone else picking up on his sick fantasies and deciding to expand upon them. And, if he did kill before his final imprisonment in 2005, it is possible that he shared what he did with others in that scene. People whom, if they believed him, would be less likely to say anything due to their own proclivities. And for those who might find his stories tantalizing, a seed may have been planted.

While I have not looked into that particular inet subculture, I did my master's thesis on the impact of online social networking, the subcultures that sprout from these, and real life crime. The basic gist was that immersive environs seem to be directly correlated to resulting real-life acting out. We saw this played out in the case of Kevin Underwood.

In other words, I agree with Pat Brown's contention (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/la_crosse_wisconsin/10.html):

...the man who had drowned her dozens of times in the ether of the Internet was very capable of doing the same thing in real life. While others may doubt that a serial killer might be at play in La Crosse, Brown is not particularly skeptical, and even if the man who she spent countless hours role-playing in cyber hell is not that killer, he may well be a carbon copy of him.Only, Lilly may be the original, and those who came after, the carbon copies...

[SeriouslySearching]

Granted. Not gang in the sense of gangbangers. I guess I need to study more of this Lilly character because I am envisioning a man that is very sanctimonious, lives off the cuff, and doesn't have the means to be part of such an organized group...mentally or otherwise. I think there is a definite sophistication level with a group that has pulled off such a feat for so many years. A certain intelligence, a framework of collaberation, and a loyalty. To me, he doesn't fit that mold for some reason.

I am very familiar with Kevin Underwood as it took place in our area.

I respect Pat Brown, but I also am having a difficult time believing this is sexual in any way. Yes, I would expect Lilly has some very low life friends that partake in that sort of behavior without a doubt. However, I don't see that sort of behavior being reinacted here.

[SuziQ]

More regarding Lilly. And IIRC, Pat Brown was brought in at the request of St. Charles, Mo. LE who had arrested him. They were extremely disturbed by Lilly.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

(snips)
Back in 1990, a man entered a police station in St. Charles, Missouri, and claimed to be the next Jeffrey Dahmer. The police ignored this man, but he finally got the attention of one detective when he shared his detailed fantasies about drowning young men (Conte, 2004). A well-known profiler, Pat Brown, got involved with the case and has been monitoring this man for years. Nicknamed John Doe to avoid revealing his identity, this man reportedly wanders from town to town (McGraw, 2005). Based on her interactions with Doe, Brown believes that it is very possible that Doe, or someone like him, could be behind many of these mysterious drownings (Conte; McGraw).

It is actually pretty easy to build a case around Doe. In addition to telling police that he would go on a drowning spree if not contained and that he fantasized about driving across the country making friends with and picking up 16- to 30-year-old men ("6 College-Age Men," 2003), he was just a block away when Chris Jenkins went missing and claimed to be on a road trip during the time that several of the other victims disappeared (Conte, 2004; McGraw, 2005).

Doe had charges on his record for making sexual advances toward the teenage son of the owner of a funeral home where Doe worked and making death threats to the teenager's entire family (McGraw). The police reports stated, "The defendant is a danger to the community ... because he goes for white males between the ages of 16 and 25 ... and had serial-killer tendencies" (as cited in McGraw).

Brown was able to confirm that Doe experienced sexual gratification from "watching" his victims struggle and die (McGraw).

[shadowraiths]

I respect Pat Brown, but I also am having a difficult time believing this is sexual in any way.
Not all fetishes involve overt (or even covert) sexual interaction. The idea that they not only do, but must, is a myth that most of us living in the "vanilla" world tend to believe.

[SeriouslySearching]

Not all fetishes involve overt (or even covert) sexual interaction. The idea that they not only do, but must, is a myth that most of us living in the "vanilla" world tend to believe.Ah, see...I have never heard that before. I will have to take your word for that one. :)

[shadowraiths]

Ah, see...I have never heard that before. I will have to take your word for that one. :)
LOL. Or, for starters, you could look in the DSM-IV TR. ^_~

[SeriouslySearching]

More regarding Lilly. And IIRC, Pat Brown was brought in at the request of St. Charles, Mo. LE who had arrested him. They were extremely disturbed by Lilly.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-150862797.html

(snips)
Back in 1990, a man entered a police station in St. Charles, Missouri, and claimed to be the next Jeffrey Dahmer. The police ignored this man, but he finally got the attention of one detective when he shared his detailed fantasies about drowning young men (Conte, 2004). A well-known profiler, Pat Brown, got involved with the case and has been monitoring this man for years. Nicknamed John Doe to avoid revealing his identity, this man reportedly wanders from town to town (McGraw, 2005). Based on her interactions with Doe, Brown believes that it is very possible that Doe, or someone like him, could be behind many of these mysterious drownings (Conte; McGraw).

It is actually pretty easy to build a case around Doe. In addition to telling police that he would go on a drowning spree if not contained and that he fantasized about driving across the country making friends with and picking up 16- to 30-year-old men ("6 College-Age Men," 2003), he was just a block away when Chris Jenkins went missing and claimed to be on a road trip during the time that several of the other victims disappeared (Conte, 2004; McGraw, 2005).

Doe had charges on his record for making sexual advances toward the teenage son of the owner of a funeral home where Doe worked and making death threats to the teenager's entire family (McGraw). The police reports stated, "The defendant is a danger to the community ... because he goes for white males between the ages of 16 and 25 ... and had serial-killer tendencies" (as cited in McGraw).

Brown was able to confirm that Doe experienced sexual gratification from "watching" his victims struggle and die (McGraw).Yes, that is enlightening and troubling at the same time.

[SeriouslySearching]

LOL. Or, for starters, you could look in the DSM-IV TR. ^_~LMAO WTH is DSM-IV TR.?