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faw720
05-03-2008, 11:28 AM
Here is the link to the Bishop's List that was seized in the raid on the compound. It identified at least some of the residents of YFZ.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/BishopsList.pdf

Texana, sorry about using this name again. I sent you a PM.

cheko1
05-03-2008, 01:54 PM
Thank you....

Many, many 16 yr olds spiritually married according to these documents.

Wendell Nielson had 21 wives & 36 kids.

Johnathan Jessop has a wife & child in hiding

Then Jacob Johnson wife Faithann & daughter was in 'house of hiding'
wonder what that means?????

LinasK
05-03-2008, 10:14 PM
Thank you....

Many, many 16 yr olds spiritually married according to these documents.

Wendell Nielson had 21 wives & 36 kids.

Johnathan Jessop has a wife & child in hiding

Then Jacob Johnson wife Faithann & daughter was in 'house of hiding'
wonder what that means?????

I also noticed 16 and 17 year olds listed as wives. Many women had 4 last names. Most residences are R17, but Alice Marie Jessop is listed as "hiding".

Can't they prosecute these guys on this evidence alone???

Jute
05-04-2008, 12:34 AM
Thank you....

Many, many 16 yr olds spiritually married according to these documents.

Wendell Nielson had 21 wives & 36 kids.

Johnathan Jessop has a wife & child in hiding

Then Jacob Johnson wife Faithann & daughter was in 'house of hiding'
wonder what that means?????
I found a reference to "house of hiding" in the transcript for the second day of the custody hearings.

"3:40 p.m. - A father's attorney asks the expert witness on religion: What do you know of a "house of hiding" mentioned in some documents?
The FLDS has been persecuted at times in its 180-year history, the expert says, so it has had to have places for people to go to hide out. But, he says, if authorities were seeking a child molester among the FLDS, then the other members would not be prone to help him."

The expert is someone named W. John Walsh.

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/live-from-the-courthouse-day-2-of-updates-from/


His answer doesn't answer why the wives and daughters of two men are in hiding.

cheko1
05-04-2008, 01:05 AM
I also noticed 16 and 17 year olds listed as wives. Many women had 4 last names. Most residences are R17, but Alice Marie Jessop is listed as "hiding".

Can't they prosecute these guys on this evidence alone???

I am quite certain they can & will prosecute the guys.

I know I never liked that terminology of the English language.To me it means she tried to get away & is in jail!!!

Leila
05-04-2008, 02:56 AM
Thank you....

Many, many 16 yr olds spiritually married according to these documents.

Wendell Nielson had 21 wives & 36 kids.

Johnathan Jessop has a wife & child in hiding

Then Jacob Johnson wife Faithann & daughter was in 'house of hiding'
wonder what that means?????

I saw that too and wondered. It could mean some sort of safe house, where people are sent to be kept away from authorities???

mysteriew
05-04-2008, 03:20 AM
Since we have heard that the favored are the ones who get wives, the more favored the more wives, I thought it would be interesting to have a sort of who's who in the FLDS.

Joseph Nevel Jessop
2 wives
1 son
2 daughters

Nephi Jeffs
14 wives
1 son deceased
15 sons
9 daughters

Leroy Steed
7 wives
11 sons
16 daughters

Allan Keote
6 wives
7 daughters
7 sons

David Jessop
2 wives
4 daughters
2 sons

Keith Dutson
5 wives
10 sons
4 daughters

Jackson Jessop
1 wife
1 son

Lehi Allred
3 wives
2 sons
1 daughters

Michael Emack
4 wives
8 daughters
4 sons

Keith Dutson Jr
1 wife

Luke Neilson
1 wife

Abram Jeffs
5 wives
4 sons
5 daughters

Wendel Neilsen
21 wives
15 sons
21 daughters

James Dockstader
1 wife
5 sons
1 daughter

Isaac Jeffs
10 wives
10 sons
5 daughters

Leland Ricter
2 wives
3 sons
4 daughters

Lloyd Barlow
4 wives
8 sons
7 daughters

Nephi Barlow
1 wife
2 sons

Joseph S. Jessop
1 wife
1 daughter
2 sons

Richard Jessop
3 wives
5 sons
1 daughter

Merrill Keate
1 wife
1 son

David Jessop
2 wives
5 sons
4 daughters

Edmund Allred
8 wives
19 sons
17 daughters

David Johnson
1 wife
1 daughter
1 son

Dan Jessop
1 wife

Paul Allred
2 mother(wives?)
3 sons

Thomas Cox
1 wife?
1 son

Jacob Jessop Jr
1 wife

Fred Lindsay Jr.
1 wife

James J Jessop
3 wives
4 sons
3 daughters

Wendall Nielsen
1 wife

Don Jessop
2 wives
2 sons

William Jessop
2 wives
2 daughers
2 sons

Jonathon Jessop
2 wives

Jacob Johnson
2 wives
4 daughters
1 son

Richard J Barlow
3 wives
9 daughters
4 sons

Edson Jessop
6 wives
25 sons
23 daughters

FlowerChild
05-04-2008, 04:43 AM
AT YFZ
37 Men ages 21 -67
88 Wives age 16-67
194 Children

8 Wives listed under age 18 (and at least 6 more girls have children of an age that would have meant they gave birth at ages 15 -17

NOT AT YFZ
46 Wives and 137 Children Listed at at Other Locations (Hilldale, Short Creek, "Hiding" Etc)

TOTALS LISTED
134 wives
331 children
8 wives under age 18 (at least 6 more older girls have children of an age that would have meant they gave birth at ages 15-17)

We KNOW CPS is listing 462 kids total (not adding in 1 just born) of which there are 53 girls 14-17 - 31 of whom are pregnant or have given birth at least once. So we do not have ANY info on 23 girls under 18 not listed who are obviously "wives" of somebody because they have children.

And this list shows only 194 children located at YFZ - if you subtract the 31 underage mothers, we are still missing info on 237 children.
WHO/WHERE ARE THEIR PARENTS???

The oldest man listed in 67 - he has 21 wives and 37 children
The man with the most children is age 50 and has 48 children with 6 wives
The youngest married man is 18 - his wife is 16 (There is also a 22 year old with a 16 year old wife and a 21 year old with a 17 year old wife and a 19 year old with a 16 year old wife)
The oldest wife is 79 - her husband is 67
The wife with the most children listed has 12

Some men have several wives and children at YFZ and several other wives and children in other locations like Short Creek and Hilldale

Of the 37 married men listed 6 have no children and 11 have only one wife...that means that the 331 children listed come from only 31 fathers (at least on paper) - which gives each man an average of 10.6 kids each and with 134 wives listed each man has an average of 3.6 wives...and we know 11 don't have multiple wives so the average among the "plurally" married men is and average of 5.1 wives each.

Luke Nielsen (son of Wendell SR ?) must be a very outstanding young "priest" because he got his 1st wife (age 16) at age 18...following in Daddy's footsteps maybe? Wendell Sr has 21 wives and 37 children listed. Wendell Jr also was allowed to marry young - he is 21 with a 19 year old wife.

I an looking forward to MORE factual info and records coming out. CPS and Texas LE is doing an excellent job of investigating this! And they are releasing/"leaking" the INFO to the PUBLIC - HOORAY!

My Opinion

mysteriew
05-04-2008, 05:31 AM
FC, one thing I looked at but couldn't figure out was the housing arrangements. There is one sheet with the names of all of the buildings and who is allocated to each building and how many bedrooms are available. I started out trying to determine how many bedrooms were allocated to each family, but lol I got confused.

I was suprised that in some households there were teens, even older teen girls and boys listed as sons and daughters. I wondered why an 18 year old girl wasn't married.

faw720
05-04-2008, 08:59 AM
I'm not sure, but I don't think we know the date the Bishop's List was compiled. Could it be that this was the list of members who first moved to the compound? Just a thought.

mollymalone
05-04-2008, 10:04 AM
The list was from 2007, and the compound was built in 2003/2004.

Flowerchild and mysteriew, those are very interesting posts!

Absent from that list are two obvious names and their families.. Warren Jeffs and Merrill Jessop and their families. Even though WJ wasn't living at the Tx compound, it is likely that many of his family members/children are since they were of the "elite" social class within the sect. So some of their children/underage wives could be in CPS custody, and by now, some of the women perhaps have been spirited away.

Other high ranking officials within the sect could also have been there at the ranch with their families and their
names weren't on the list for some reason. Wendell Neilson's name/family were listed, and he's reported
to be counselor to Warren Jeffs.

FlowerChild
05-04-2008, 11:49 AM
I'm not sure, but I don't think we know the date the Bishop's List was compiled. Could it be that this was the list of members who first moved to the compound? Just a thought.
Dates on the documents (by the FLDS member show March, May and August of 2007. I don't think the 88 YFZ wives listed could have had 237 Kids in that time frame?

As to the "residences" I looked a few up and there are not enough bedrooms for each wife to have her own room. For instance Keith Dutson has 5 wives and 14 kids living at YFZ in a 4 bedroom house. Assume they divide the kids into "boys/girls" - that leaves only 2 bedrooms for "wives" and Keith. Perhaps Keith has the "master" and the wives not "with him" that night sleep together in the remaining bedroom? That arrangement does not explain the 3 bedroom residences tho- once you make two "dorms" (boys/girls) then have a private master bedroom for the man...where do the other wives sleep? With the kids in the dorms? The largest residence I saw listed was 4 bedrooms.

Warren Jeffs doesn't have to "report" on himself - he GETS the report - as do the BISHOPS - the report is done to give TO the BISHOPS/the PROPHET - they probably wouldn't include themselves in their own report?? I believe a HOUSE is shown for Merrill Jessop though.

My Opinion

mysteriew
05-04-2008, 03:03 PM
On Dutson, that means 20 people in a 4 bedroom home. 5 of those people (wives) who would be competitive among each other. 14 people (kids) who would need to be kept occupied.

With 20 people in the home, there is no privacy. Anything you do will be seen by someone. Any facial expression will be seen by someone. Any independent thought or action will be observed.

FlowerChild
05-04-2008, 04:30 PM
On Dutson, that means 20 people in a 4 bedroom home. 5 of those people (wives) who would be competitive among each other. 14 people (kids) who would need to be kept occupied.

With 20 people in the home, there is no privacy. Anything you do will be seen by someone. Any facial expression will be seen by someone. Any independent thought or action will be observed.

Not to mention that most of the dwellings are duplexes or fourplexes - either 2 or 4 units per building. So each "family" would have neighbors either above or below AND beside your unit. And I did note many of the units have no real kitchen - just a "kitchenette" - I am sure there is one industrial/commercial type kitchen per building - or a centrally located commercial type kitchen. I have seen photos of one kitchen there - the girls were taking "home-ec" and they were shown in a HUGE kitchen and the room had many long banquet style tables in it as well.

The FLDS doesn't INTEND for it's members to have any privacy - ratting out your neighbors, friends and even family members for doing something "bad" or against the rules is highly rewarded. Having everyone living in such close proximity is just another way to control everyone. You never know who is watching or who to trust (if anyone).

I did notice a number of smaller units housed what appeared to be single men, men who's wives were elsewhere or older/teenage boys. I have read that the children are separated almost at birth by sex - boys together, girls together. It seems the ONLY time the children (even siblings) are in a mixed group is at church, home night or at meals. I betcha the "bachelor's quarters" are FAR AWAY from the regular dwellings with an older married man in good standing, who doesn't have any of his wives at YFZ, supervising - wouldn't want those men/boys to so much as SEE a girl...ever!

And of course there are no "single women" units - girls are either in their father's home or their husband's home - guests stay with a family - I saw a few "guests" listed - all older (past childbearing age) woman. Evidently women and girls must be accompanied by a man when traveling and must stay in the home of a married man wherever they are visiting.

As far as the lists themselves, it appears to show very few boys 13+. I assume the remainder were "excommunicated". The boys cannot be "counted" separately until they marry so any sons would be listed with their father/mother until they marry - or are "lost" (even if they are working elsewhere, they would be shown on their family's "Bishops List" with the notation that they were in Short Creek, etc). As for the older girls and young men still living at home - I am suspicious that some might be ill with Fumarase or perhaps handicapped in some other significant way that prevents the boys from going off to "work" on their "mission" and the girls from being married at the usual age of 12-16.

My Opinion

LinasK
05-04-2008, 08:58 PM
Since we have heard that the favored are the ones who get wives, the more favored the more wives, I thought it would be interesting to have a sort of who's who in the FLDS.

Joseph Nevel Jessop
2 wives
1 son
2 daughters

Nephi Jeffs
14 wives
1 son deceased
15 sons
9 daughters

Leroy Steed
7 wives
11 sons
16 daughters

Allan Keote
6 wives
7 daughters
7 sons

David Jessop
2 wives
4 daughters
2 sons

Keith Dutson
5 wives
10 sons
4 daughters

Jackson Jessop
1 wife
1 son

Lehi Allred
3 wives
2 sons
1 daughters

Michael Emack
4 wives
8 daughters
4 sons

Keith Dutson Jr
1 wife

Luke Neilson
1 wife

Abram Jeffs
5 wives
4 sons
5 daughters

Wendel Neilsen
21 wives
15 sons
21 daughters

James Dockstader
1 wife
5 sons
1 daughter

Isaac Jeffs
10 wives
10 sons
5 daughters

Leland Ricter
2 wives
3 sons
4 daughters

Lloyd Barlow
4 wives
8 sons
7 daughters

Nephi Barlow
1 wife
2 sons

Joseph S. Jessop
1 wife
1 daughter
2 sons

Richard Jessop
3 wives
5 sons
1 daughter

Merrill Keate
1 wife
1 son

David Jessop
2 wives
5 sons
4 daughters

Edmund Allred
8 wives
19 sons
17 daughters

David Johnson
1 wife
1 daughter
1 son

Dan Jessop
1 wife

Paul Allred
2 mother(wives?)
3 sons

Thomas Cox
1 wife?
1 son

Jacob Jessop Jr
1 wife

Fred Lindsay Jr.
1 wife

James J Jessop
3 wives
4 sons
3 daughters

Wendall Nielsen
1 wife

Don Jessop
2 wives
2 sons

William Jessop
2 wives
2 daughers
2 sons

Jonathon Jessop
2 wives

Jacob Johnson
2 wives
4 daughters
1 son

Richard J Barlow
3 wives
9 daughters
4 sons

Edson Jessop
6 wives
25 sons
23 daughters

AT YFZ
37 Men ages 21 -67
88 Wives age 16-67
194 Children

8 Wives listed under age 18 (and at least 6 more girls have children of an age that would have meant they gave birth at ages 15 -17

NOT AT YFZ
46 Wives and 137 Children Listed at at Other Locations (Hilldale, Short Creek, "Hiding" Etc)

TOTALS LISTED
134 wives
331 children
8 wives under age 18 (at least 6 more older girls have children of an age that would have meant they gave birth at ages 15-17)

We KNOW CPS is listing 462 kids total (not adding in 1 just born) of which there are 53 girls 14-17 - 31 of whom are pregnant or have given birth at least once. So we do not have ANY info on 23 girls under 18 not listed who are obviously "wives" of somebody because they have children.

And this list shows only 194 children located at YFZ - if you subtract the 31 underage mothers, we are still missing info on 237 children.
WHO/WHERE ARE THEIR PARENTS???

The oldest man listed in 67 - he has 21 wives and 37 children
The man with the most children is age 50 and has 48 children with 6 wives
The youngest married man is 18 - his wife is 16 (There is also a 22 year old with a 16 year old wife and a 21 year old with a 17 year old wife and a 19 year old with a 16 year old wife)
The oldest wife is 79 - her husband is 67
The wife with the most children listed has 12

Some men have several wives and children at YFZ and several other wives and children in other locations like Short Creek and Hilldale

Of the 37 married men listed 6 have no children and 11 have only one wife...that means that the 331 children listed come from only 31 fathers (at least on paper) - which gives each man an average of 10.6 kids each and with 134 wives listed each man has an average of 3.6 wives...and we know 11 don't have multiple wives so the average among the "plurally" married men is and average of 5.1 wives each.

Luke Nielsen (son of Wendell SR ?) must be a very outstanding young "priest" because he got his 1st wife (age 16) at age 18...following in Daddy's footsteps maybe? Wendell Sr has 21 wives and 37 children listed. Wendell Jr also was allowed to marry young - he is 21 with a 19 year old wife.

I an looking forward to MORE factual info and records coming out. CPS and Texas LE is doing an excellent job of investigating this! And they are releasing/"leaking" the INFO to the PUBLIC - HOORAY!

My OpinionThese two posts ought to be a sticky thread at the top of the forum for information!

mysteriew
05-07-2008, 03:10 AM
Statistics from the Bishops List
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9165683

Floh
05-07-2008, 03:29 AM
These two posts ought to be a sticky thread at the top of the forum for information!

I agree ask adnoid if he'll do it. i asked him to sticky the links post. :)

SewingDeb
05-10-2008, 08:54 PM
Raid on Sect in Texas Rattles Other Polygamists

“We are adding up the number of men who may be going to prison,” said Isaac Wyler, 42, the eldest of Mr. Wyler’s 34 children, who was examining the list on Sunday to see which men may have had wives under the legal age when they married.

Scenes like this have played out in recent days in polygamist communities on the Arizona-Utah border as the marriage list and other records, seized last month from the polygamist sect in Eldorado, Tex., along with 462 children in an investigation of possible under-age brides, have filtered west.

The information has families like the Wylers talking about some of polygamy’s best-kept secrets. Who would have guessed, for instance, that Wendell Nielsen, a high-ranking sect official with family here, had 21 wives in Texas, too? Or that he has 35 children on top of those here?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/us/08raid.html

mollymalone
05-10-2008, 10:47 PM
Raid on Sect in Texas Rattles Other Polygamists

“We are adding up the number of men who may be going to prison,” said Isaac Wyler, 42, the eldest of Mr. Wyler’s 34 children, who was examining the list on Sunday to see which men may have had wives under the legal age when they married.

Scenes like this have played out in recent days in polygamist communities on the Arizona-Utah border as the marriage list and other records, seized last month from the polygamist sect in Eldorado, Tex., along with 462 children in an investigation of possible under-age brides, have filtered west.

The information has families like the Wylers talking about some of polygamy’s best-kept secrets. Who would have guessed, for instance, that Wendell Nielsen, a high-ranking sect official with family here, had 21 wives in Texas, too? Or that he has 35 children on top of those here?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/us/08raid.html
I thought that list was rather short and in comments on a blog that discusses polygamy with posters who are current and former flds, I read a post where the poster said that the records (bishop's list) were incomplete or outdated. They further said that two major families are missing from the list, some listed as living in Colorado City were at the YFZ ranch and that some of the women they recognzied in the news weren't listed. Some of the children in custody are from elsewhere and have birth parents in other places that weren't at YFZ at the time of the raid and they aren't listed either. Someone else posted that many of these men listed had left several of their other famlies in other locations while they took a favored wife/wives and some of the children to YFZ.

So it's not surprising to find that Neilson has more children than were listed.

SewingDeb
05-10-2008, 11:26 PM
I'm not surprised, Molly. Maybe this was done on purpose, in case there ever was a raid.

mysteriew
05-10-2008, 11:50 PM
Utah and Arizona governors and media seem to want to make this about polygamy instead of child abuse. Now they are trotting out non FLDS polygamists and talking about that taboo subject, polygamy. Not child abuse. Not incest, not abandonment, just polygamy. And so far, no one has been charged with polygamy. And Texas has been relatively quiet on that issue.

You know they (Ut. and Az. officials) have indicated that they believe it was wrong for Tx. to do the raid and how they won't be doing one is failing to take into account the differences in their communities. It is my understanding that in Az. and Ut. the FLDS lives in individual homes. The homes may be owned by the FLDS, but they are individual homes. And in some cases a man's wives may live in their own homes.

But in Tx. it was a more communal lifestyle. Not one family to one home, multiple families in one home. And I think that is why Texas took the sweeping action they did (besides the fact that so many were either hiding themselves or trying to hide someone else during the raid.)

mollymalone
05-10-2008, 11:50 PM
I'm not surprised, Molly. Maybe this was done on purpose, in case there ever was a raid.That's possible, but I believe it was standard practice for some of them. Keeps the wives and children off balance and rewards the "favored" ones, they are elite and get to be at "zion" before anyone else. That didn't work out according to plan now did it?

SewingDeb
05-11-2008, 12:04 AM
It sure didn't, Molly.

cheko1
05-11-2008, 12:43 AM
Any facial expression will be seen by someone. Any independent thought or action will be observed.

I shortened your article!

LMAO....nobody needs to worry about facial expressions! I've honestly never seen a one of them show any form of emotion even when they 'honestly tried to' for the media.

mollymalone
05-11-2008, 10:45 AM
Utah and Arizona governors and media seem to want to make this about polygamy instead of child abuse. Now they are trotting out non FLDS polygamists and talking about that taboo subject, polygamy. Not child abuse. Not incest, not abandonment, just polygamy. And so far, no one has been charged with polygamy. And Texas has been relatively quiet on that issue.

You know they (Ut. and Az. officials) have indicated that they believe it was wrong for Tx. to do the raid and how they won't be doing one is failing to take into account the differences in their communities. It is my understanding that in Az. and Ut. the FLDS lives in individual homes. The homes may be owned by the FLDS, but they are individual homes. And in some cases a man's wives may live in their own homes.

But in Tx. it was a more communal lifestyle. Not one family to one home, multiple families in one home. And I think that is why Texas took the sweeping action they did (besides the fact that so many were either hiding themselves or trying to hide someone else during the raid.)That's true, there's a big difference in being enclosed within walls versus individual homes. Now that you mention it, they are seeming to concentrate on speaking about polygamy.

mollymalone
05-11-2008, 10:47 AM
I shortened your article!

LMAO....nobody needs to worry about facial expressions! I've honestly never seen a one of them show any form of emotion even when they 'honestly tried to' for the media.After years of being taught to suppress your emotions and facial expressions to "keep sweet" I imagine it's hard for some of them to react in a normal manner. However.... that being said, I've seen some posts by flds that are agressive and the language and insults used are definitely not of the sweet kind.