Killer Cults?

[shadowraiths]

Yes, they exist. Of course they do. One need only look at Adolfo de Jesús Constanzo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolfo_Constanzo), who tortured and murdered Mark Kilroy during a death ritual. Kilroy was a 21-year-old pre-med Texas university student, who was kidnapped for Constanzo's by his "gang" of drug runners, and spirited away to Constanzo's ranch in Matomoros, Mexico (http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism49.html). Was Constanzo's "death cult" Satanic? No. He practiced Palo Mayombe, the dark side of the Afro-Caribbean offshoot of Voudoun, Santeria.

That being said, I really don't want to derail the main thread about very real tragedies with a debate on whether (or not) a nation-wide Satanic Cult is running around murdering college students in Satanic rituals. So I've started this thread. Debate away!

[nursebeeme]

http://truthbeknown2000.tripod.com/Truthbeknown2000/id22.html
http://www.reflectionsinthenight.com/walpurgisnacht_baby.htm
http://truthbeknown2000.tripod.com/
http://gabster.fm1071.com/fm107_ian/blog/2008/04/22/ip_freely

[nursebeeme]

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/sm...96?icid=acvsv3 (http://video.aol.com/video-detail/smiley-face-serial-killers-update-a1/3480240596?icid=acvsv3)

[nursebeeme]

Seems there is such a thing as a water cult that dates back to prechristianity where water was worshiped...sometimes with the use of sacrifice via drowning in the name of pagan gods. Then along came the christians and ~snip~ Consequently, with a veneer of Christianity, and the substitution of a saint's name, water worship has held its own to our day." (Bonser 1974 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#bonser1974), 29).

entire archeological article can be found here : http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html

Additionaly, ~snip~
"Where fresh water runs there runs spirit, and this is particularly so wherever water springs up from below the earth, for it comes from the realm of the earth goddess and bears her gifts. Properly every spring has its season of efficacy when its virtues are most generously displayed. In times before doctors, psychiatrists, marriage guidance officials, newspaper horoscopes, drugs and artificial fertilisers, all their functions were exercised by the spirits of the local springs, who required no payment but respect and attention" (Michell 1975 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#michell1975), quoted in Whelan and Taylor 1989 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#whelan1989), 8).


Perhaps there IS a connection to the catholic school?? These cases were all in different bodies of water 'from the earth'. Why did blood hounds pick up Chris Jenkins' scent at the catholic school when he did not go there to school? Hmmmm....

[eve]

Seems there is such a thing as a water cult that dates back to prechristianity where water was worshiped...sometimes with the use of sacrifice via drowning in the name of pagan gods. Then along came the christians and ~snip~ Consequently, with a veneer of Christianity, and the substitution of a saint's name, water worship has held its own to our day." (Bonser 1974 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#bonser1974), 29).

entire archeological article can be found here : http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html

Additionaly, ~snip~
"Where fresh water runs there runs spirit, and this is particularly so wherever water springs up from below the earth, for it comes from the realm of the earth goddess and bears her gifts. Properly every spring has its season of efficacy when its virtues are most generously displayed. In times before doctors, psychiatrists, marriage guidance officials, newspaper horoscopes, drugs and artificial fertilisers, all their functions were exercised by the spirits of the local springs, who required no payment but respect and attention" (Michell 1975 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#michell1975), quoted in Whelan and Taylor 1989 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#whelan1989), 8).


Perhaps there IS a connection to the catholic school?? These cases were all in different bodies of water 'from the earth'. Why did blood hounds pick up Chris Jenkins' scent at the catholic school when he did not go there to school? Hmmmm....


Someone else mentioned (can't remember who or what thread) that they had once thought there was a Catholic connection...anyone know how many of the victims were Catholic?

I guess I assumed the scent was carried to the St John's site by the killer/s somehow?

Eve

[DeltaDawn]

http://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/satan1.htm

SNIP/

The USA undoubtedly manifests the greatest concentration of satanic sects which we could define as well-known, that is, which act more or less in the open, and it is always in this country that we can find the most bibliographical references to contemporary satanism. Among the well-known groups which have arisen in the USA and which are still active we find: Church of Satan, Temple of Set, Order of the Black Ram, Werewolf Order, Worldwide Church of Satanic Liberation, Church of War. Among those which seem to have ceased their activity after a few years we find: Church of Satanic Brotherhood, Brotherhood of the Ram, Our Lady of Endor Coven, The Satanic Orthodox Church of Nethilum Rite, The Satanic Church. In addition, there are other organizations for which it is difficult to determine whether they have ceased their activity or not, for example the so-called Order Templi Satanis, whose writings are distributed on the Internet.

/SNIP

[DeltaDawn]

http://biphome.spray.se/d.scot/Satanism/Ots/ots.htm

Info on various satanic orders as well as , Order Templi Santanis, which also has almost a paramilitary feel to it.

[Eire]

I know I'll get jumped all over again for saying this,but since the question was asked, I feel I have just as much right as everyone else to answer it. No, there is no cult, Satanic or otherwise at work here. There hasn't ever been any evidence of an organized Satanic cult murdering or kidnapping people. We went through this in the 80's. Yes, Satanic organizations exist. To call any religion a cult simply because we dont' follow it, I feel is mislabeling that faith. There are Satanic religions out there, no doubt. But, they don't as a matter of course do these sorts of things.

The problem with looking them up online is considering the source. Most of the sites I've run across are fundamentalist or at least Christian in nature, thus not very reliable when trying to determine what a paticular sect may or may not do. I can speak from experience and knowledge of both the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set, neither does this sort of thing. Are there people who claim to be members and commit crimes? Oh, yes. Ramirez did. It was rumored that Manson himself was a member of the Church of Satan, he wasn't. Neither was the Son of Sam.

It's easier to think some dark, evil force is at work than to think it's one or two people who we would never suspect. That's the sad reality of cases like this, we need a boogeyman because the alternative is too upsetting. There is no boogeyman in my opinion. Not in the traditional sense, anyway.

I know someone will jump my butt for what I'm about to say, so be it. The basic problem here is a lack of knowledge as to what Satanist groups do and believe. If we took the time to learn about what they do, they'd not be so dark and scary.

Personally, and I'm sorry if this sounds glib, I'd think of Satanists all of the sudden turned organized murder machine, they'd be targeting pseudo-goths who like to do stupid things then claim they're doing Satanic rituals. Not that I condone organized murder under any circumstances, mind you. I'm just saying college boys with athletic builds and high GPAs aren't a problem for Satanist groups. Kids playing dark, scary Satanic, demon child are.

[kline]

This where it can get kind of confusing.
I know people who consider satanism thier religion and belong to an organized group are offended by the word 'satanic cult'.
Which I can understand.
Im a Christian and Ive grown weary of having various high profile political loud mouth bigots and killers from the crusades thrown in my face as if I co-sign thier madness by virtue of my Faith when what they define as "Christianity'to me is a gross misrepresentation of what I believe it to be.
Having said that how do we define a group of really bad people who arent organized satanists but pick and choose from various forms of thought such as the Process and others to legitimize the evil they commit?
Clearly they are psychopaths and view evil as something to exalt.
Yes 'real' satanists wouldnt do this.
Real Christians wouldnt do the things Jim Jones,David Koresh,hundreds of disease carrying 'missionaries' or several lynchmobs have done either but that doesnt mean those attrocities didnt happen.
But perhaps it matters less how we define these people then how they define themselves however illegitimately.
The Sam cult is a good example.
And yes inspite of the talk show hysteria of the '80's I beleive members of this group were responsible for much of what Maury Terry attributed to them .
I dont think its fair to blame him for the nonsense his investigation into that specific case inspired a bunch of ratings hungry network idiots to indulge in.
Ive yet to see any of his allegations about the Son Of Sam case refuted by any reliable source.
In this particular case,yes I think ( though they are most certainly not a group of 'satanists' in the pure sense of the word) a group of people simular to the Sam group or perhaps some mutation of it could very well be responsible.

[Blink34]

I know I'll get jumped all over again for saying this,but since the question was asked, I feel I have just as much right as everyone else to answer it. No, there is no cult, Satanic or otherwise at work here. There hasn't ever been any evidence of an organized Satanic cult murdering or kidnapping people. We went through this in the 80's. Yes, Satanic organizations exist. To call any religion a cult simply because we dont' follow it, I feel is mislabeling that faith. There are Satanic religions out there, no doubt. But, they don't as a matter of course do these sorts of things.

The problem with looking them up online is considering the source. Most of the sites I've run across are fundamentalist or at least Christian in nature, thus not very reliable when trying to determine what a paticular sect may or may not do. I can speak from experience and knowledge of both the Church of Satan and the Temple of Set, neither does this sort of thing. Are there people who claim to be members and commit crimes? Oh, yes. Ramirez did. It was rumored that Manson himself was a member of the Church of Satan, he wasn't. Neither was the Son of Sam.

It's easier to think some dark, evil force is at work than to think it's one or two people who we would never suspect. That's the sad reality of cases like this, we need a boogeyman because the alternative is too upsetting. There is no boogeyman in my opinion. Not in the traditional sense, anyway.

I know someone will jump my butt for what I'm about to say, so be it. The basic problem here is a lack of knowledge as to what Satanist groups do and believe. If we took the time to learn about what they do, they'd not be so dark and scary.

Personally, and I'm sorry if this sounds glib, I'd think of Satanists all of the sudden turned organized murder machine, they'd be targeting pseudo-goths who like to do stupid things then claim they're doing Satanic rituals. Not that I condone organized murder under any circumstances, mind you. I'm just saying college boys with athletic builds and high GPAs aren't a problem for Satanist groups. Kids playing dark, scary Satanic, demon child are.

ok then Eire- I would be interested in any knowledge as to what Satanists do and believe as you say if you feel for the most part that that is what we are lacking in forming a better hypothesis-
Your post took guts, I'll give you that, and I felt you were eloquent in it's presentation. I do agree with the last line.

[Blink34]

This where it can get kind of confusing.
I know people who consider satanism thier religion and belong to an organized group are offended by the word 'satanic cult'.
Which I can understand.
Im a Christian and Ive grown weary of having various high profile political loud mouth bigots and killers from the crusades thrown in my face as if I co-sign thier madness by virtue of my Faith when what they define as "Christianity'to me is a gross misrepresentation of what I believe it to be.
Having said that how do we define a group of really bad people who arent organized satanists but pick and choose from various forms of thought such as the Process and others to legitimize the evil they commit?
Clearly they are psychopaths and view evil as something to exalt.
Yes 'real' satanists wouldnt do this.
Real Christians wouldnt do the things Jim Jones,David Koresh,hundreds of disease carrying 'missionaries' or several lynchmobs have done either but that doesnt mean those attrocities didnt happen.
But perhaps it matters less how we define these people then how they define themselves however illegitimately.
The Sam cult is a good example.
And yes inspite of the talk show hysteria of the '80's I beleive members of this group were responsible for much of what Maury Terry attributed to them .
I dont think its fair to blame him for the nonsense his investigation into that specific case inspired a bunch of ratings hungry network idiots to indulge in.
Ive yet to see any of his allegations about the Son Of Sam case refuted by any reliable source.
In this particular case,yes I think ( though they are most certainly not a group of 'satanists' in the pure sense of the word) a group of people simular to the Sam group or perhaps some mutation of it could very well be responsible.

well said, I think the most poignant thing you stated for me as I bolded above is this. Imo, any person or persons, group, or gang, whatever you want to refer to it as, will use whatever means, teachings, rituals, they can find to further their cause. If their cause is evil, how else are you going to entice others to participate, there has to be an example of it's success (real or perceived) somewhere-

[shadowraiths]

well said, I think the most poignant thing you stated for me as I bolded above is this. Imo, any person or persons, group, or gang, whatever you want to refer to it as, will use whatever means, teachings, rituals, they can find to further their cause. If their cause is evil, how else are you going to entice others to participate, there has to be an example of it's success (real or perceived) somewhere-
Nazi Germany

[Blink34]

Yes, sadly.

[SuziQ]

What's interesting is when murderers commit their crimes in the name of Satan, they really have no knowledge about Satanism. They are usually young adults who are in love with the romance part of being a Satanist and that's it. They are another example of someone who uses a cult or religion to further their own agenda. Which in many cases is to merely hurt something or someone. Then there are the one's who are mentally ill, that are grasping for something to hold on to, so that their screwed up minds make sense. Some of those go the way of Jesus, some go the way of Satan.

[Eire]

ok then Eire- I would be interested in any knowledge as to what Satanists do and believe as you say if you feel for the most part that that is what we are lacking in forming a better hypothesis-
Your post took guts, I'll give you that, and I felt you were eloquent in it's presentation. I do agree with the last line.

Nah, it didn't take guts at all. Just a big mouth and a large soapbox :) Satanists, and when I say that, I'm refering to groups like the Church of Satan, don't worship Satan at all. The thing to remember about Anton LaVey is, he was a showman. He knew what would really rile people up and he named his belief system after it. Thus, Satanism. It worked, especially in the late 60's in San Francisco. Piss off the Hippies and Middle America all at once, that was LaVey's style. They don't worship Satan or dark, evil demons. They're really more into themselves than worshiping anything when you get right down to it. It's what some of my Satanist friends call a self-centered religion. Satanism the way LaVey taught it, it was more about being intelligent, taking personal responsiblity for your actions and your failings and basically living for yourself. That's why many consider it a self-centered faith. LaVey added some guidelines about how a Satanist is to behave and what is important. Two of those guidelines are "Do no kill animals" and "Do not harm little children." There are guidelines about not harassing women sexually and not stealing as well. As it was put to me by a friend years ago, there's nothing stopping your standard Satanist from punching random strangers in the nose, but he has to be ready to face the consequences for his actions. No excuses, no "I didn't have a puppy when I was 7." Whatever you do, you and you alone are responsible for. If you choose to be a miserable jackass, you'll be a lonely miserable jackass and nobody will make excuses for you. He has some social Darwinist leanings I find distasteful on a personal level, but the faith is against killing, torturing and maiming. There aren't any rituals which would require a new member to prover his or her "worth" so to speak to the group. Actually, all you need to join the LaVeyan path is about $200. That's right, you buy your way in. Not condoning it, just putting it out there.

The Temple of Set was founded by a man who was a member of the Church of Satan. He and LaVey had a falling out. Nobody will ever get the true story behind that one as LaVey said one thing and Temple of Set guy said another and the truth is probably more like there wasn't enough space in any given room for both egos to exist at the same time. I personally don't care for the way Set is run, but I dobut he's losing any sleep over that one. :) They like to play up the dark stuff, but they aren't into killing or maiming or hurting either. I'm pretty sure you just buy your way in there too. I'd have to seek clarification on that though. The truth is, a Satanic gathering would probably either bore the pants off most people or make them giggle insanely. Personally, I giggled insanely, but I was polite enough to do so behind closed doors. My dearest friend in all of this world and the next was a Satanist. I said somewhere else that his passing from this world left a deep wound in the hearts of many. He was a wonderful human being with a heart of gold. He just happened to follow a belief system most of us find scary or off-putting. There was nothing scary or off-putting about it. I used to be scared half to death of the whole thing, but I learned about it and it stopped being scary.

Yes, there are many groups of practicing Satanists in many countries around the world. They don't generally participate in mass homicides or crime sprees because personal responsibility plays a big role in the beliefs. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that someone claiming to be a Satanist can commit crimes, history proves that happens. I'm sure certain Satanists commit crimes too. But, an organized group of them, no.

The main reason I spoke up in the first place is, I'm a practicing Pagan and have been for over 10 years. When things like this happen and the murderous cult theories get bandied about, we're all mashed together into one huge lump of evil. We aren't evil people practicing evil and worshiping demons. We are just like everyone else. In fact, you'd most likel not be able to recognize a Pagan or a Satanist in a crowd. You'd be able to pick out a few, but most of us are just your average guy/gal on the street.

Hope my little novel has cleared things up a tad bit. I didn't mean to go on so, I was planning on the "Reader's Digest" version. :) If you want to know more, I'm always happy to educate.

[SeriouslySearching]

Very fascinating stuff, Eire! I think every religion has extremists and this applies across the board. People have a definite problem with being openminded enough to explore other religions or alternative spiritualities. Fear is a natural response to something we are not familiar with that sounds negative. Thanks for posting.

[MeoW333]

Water is a natural conduit. We may have a couple individuals with twisted beliefs of some sort doing the killings. I'm not sure about a cult type scenario. Most cults like to keep their members confined from outsiders in order to brainwash them better. At the least, say for example, Manson, the members still returned to him and the ranch after they were out doing wrongdoings. There would have to be a cult in each of the states where a college boy has drowned and the odds of this and them having the same m.o. would seem to be slim. If it is to be a religious evil cult, they are highly organized and secretive and the smiley face symbol seems out of place for that. I wish we were privy to more information that the detectives know. As for a cult, it's more believable if it were a couple or few different people doing the killings; even if they do not know each other.

[Eire]

This where it can get kind of confusing.
I know people who consider satanism thier religion and belong to an organized group are offended by the word 'satanic cult'.
Which I can understand.
Im a Christian and Ive grown weary of having various high profile political loud mouth bigots and killers from the crusades thrown in my face as if I co-sign thier madness by virtue of my Faith when what they define as "Christianity'to me is a gross misrepresentation of what I believe it to be.
Having said that how do we define a group of really bad people who arent organized satanists but pick and choose from various forms of thought such as the Process and others to legitimize the evil they commit?
Clearly they are psychopaths and view evil as something to exalt.
Yes 'real' satanists wouldnt do this.
Real Christians wouldnt do the things Jim Jones,David Koresh,hundreds of disease carrying 'missionaries' or several lynchmobs have done either but that doesnt mean those attrocities didnt happen.
But perhaps it matters less how we define these people then how they define themselves however illegitimately.
The Sam cult is a good example.
And yes inspite of the talk show hysteria of the '80's I beleive members of this group were responsible for much of what Maury Terry attributed to them .
I dont think its fair to blame him for the nonsense his investigation into that specific case inspired a bunch of ratings hungry network idiots to indulge in.
Ive yet to see any of his allegations about the Son Of Sam case refuted by any reliable source.
In this particular case,yes I think ( though they are most certainly not a group of 'satanists' in the pure sense of the word) a group of people simular to the Sam group or perhaps some mutation of it could very well be responsible.

I can start with a few simple refutations. Son of Sam claimed to be a member of The Process church at the time of the killings. The Process Church was defunct at the time of the killings. He claims the "Sam" in Son of Sam came from Samhain, the Celtic lord of the dead, there is no such Celtic God. Samhain is a Celtic celebration to mark the end of summer. It means "Summers end.' The "Sam" part isn't even pronounced Sam, it's prononuced "Sow." The worst of what is said of The Process Chruch comes from two books. They successfully sued the publishers of one of them and had mention of the group removed. David also claims he was a member of a Satanic group, The Process were not Satanic in nature. Further, Satanic groups don't worship Celtic Gods, they don't worship any Gods. I don't believe there ever was a Sam group. If there was, their knowledge of the God they claimed to worship is pathetic. No such God existed. How on Earth a harvest celebration got turned into the big, bad, evil Celtic lord of the dead is beyond me. It's one of those urban myths two minutes of research clears up easily, but it's taken on a life of its own nonetheless.

[Eire]

Very fascinating stuff, Eire! I think every religion has extremists and this applies across the board. People have a definite problem with being openminded enough to explore other religions or alternative spiritualities. Fear is a natural response to something we are not familiar with that sounds negative. Thanks for posting.

Thanking you. :) You are correct, every faith has extremists and nut jobs. They don't define the belief system, but they do get most of the attention. I call it the newspaper factor. "Satanic group kicks puppies" sells more papers than "Satanic group feeds the homelsee." It's the same with "Christian blows up abortion clinic" that sells papers where "Christian youths aid disaster victims" wouldn't. It's a shame, people just don't want to read about the good. In the words of Don Henley "We love dirty laundry." When I quote Don Henley, it's a sure sign I need coffee and/or a nap. :)

[shadowraiths]

It's one of those urban myths two minutes of research clears up easily, but it's taken on a life of its own nonetheless.
Urban legends die hard, esp the juicy ones (the son of sam, process church, conspiracy theory, not really falling into that category, imho, more like a grade D pulp fiction). Take La Llorona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona) (The Weeping Woman), for example? Or how about e'l Chucacabra (http://paranormal.about.com/cs/chupacabra/) (The Goat Sucker)? And who could forget Sasquatch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigfoot) (Big Foot)? All of these urban legends have a rich history within the culture from which they sprouted. And, just perhaps, turns what might otherwise be a boring, even tragic (in some instances), existence, into something bordering on magical. Imho, Christian Nestell Bovee says it best:

"Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities. No man is happy without a delusion of some kind." - Christian Nestell Bovee

As for the claims of Maury Terry? I have tracked down his claims and found... well... nothing. I was however intrigued wrt how so many came to embrace the claims arising out of the "satanic panic" mess and in fact, wrote an article, Sins of our Fathers (http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/68/49/), that attempts to explore just that.

[Eire]

The goat sucker is a favorite among my friends and I. One went to Mexico a few years ago and we all asked her to bring us back some as pets. :) The Process, Son of Sam myth, you're right it's more like a trashy pulp fiction novel than an urban myth.

I look forward to reading your article and will do so shortly. But first, I must struggle through my Statistics homework. If I have one brain cell left with which to process your piece I will enjoy it after my homework. That will be my motivation for completing it. :crazy: You're helping me diet too, my usual motivation is chocolate.

[kline]

Thanking you. :) You are correct, every faith has extremists and nut jobs. They don't define the belief system, but they do get most of the attention. I call it the newspaper factor. "Satanic group kicks puppies" sells more papers than "Satanic group feeds the homelsee." It's the same with "Christian blows up abortion clinic" that sells papers where "Christian youths aid disaster victims" wouldn't. It's a shame, people just don't want to read about the good. In the words of Don Henley "We love dirty laundry." When I quote Don Henley, it's a sure sign I need coffee and/or a nap. :)
I couldnt agree more which was part of my point.
I appreciate your informative posts.
People that perpetuate these crimes are psychopaths first.
And tend to borrow bits and pieces of whatever philosophy they use to co sign their madness.
Im sure Richard Ramirez would take exception to the notion that he's not really a satanist yet it obvious he was sick killer who found the imagery he percieved to be 'satanic' inspiring and wanted to associate it with his crimes.
Your comments on the inaccuricies of the Sam group are prime example.
They couldnt get it right because they are eclectic dabblers borrowing from several sources.

I remain unconvinced as to a far reaching satanic conspiracy in that case Ive always felt it was a core group of several individuals which is well within the realm of possibilty.
I am convinced Berkowitz was not the only gunman.
I beleive Paganism to be a benign philosophy though I couldnt say the same for the OTO or the Process.
I invite anybody to do the necessary research into what these two groups truly believe(and dont just take Ed Sanders or Maury Terry's word for it)
And draw your own conclusions.
But it can be maddening though.
Im a Christian but reading the post in todays "Up To The Minute "Forum about the family that left the dead grandmother on the toilet waiting for her to be resurected.
I can understand how a Wiccan or Pagan must feel when reading about "Killer Satanic Cults"

[Eire]

I share your feelings about the OTO, though I do not know enough about them to truly comment. I've asked questions of followers, but information straight from the source is hard to come by. I prefer to ask followers rather than read what others have written because followers are closer to the source. All I can say is the OTO has put me off and I'm a bit leery of them. My mind is open to change, though. The Process, I've read so many mixed writings about them, I want to learn more before I form an opinion.

You and I, my friend, are on different sides of the same coin. We follow our faiths, but we aren't any more accountable for the actions of the wackos than the next guy. I recognized that in your postings. You and many others here are the type of people I look to when I get all militant about what the wackos do. You remind me that the stable certainly outnumber the wackos. :) May you have a blessed day.

[DeltaDawn]

What about a renegade group that was part gang, part cult? I think there are gangs that are in that arena.

[kline]

I share your feelings about the OTO, though I do not know enough about them to truly comment. I've asked questions of followers, but information straight from the source is hard to come by. I prefer to ask followers rather than read what others have written because followers are closer to the source. All I can say is the OTO has put me off and I'm a bit leery of them. My mind is open to change, though. The Process, I've read so many mixed writings about them, I want to learn more before I form an opinion.

You and I, my friend, are on different sides of the same coin. We follow our faiths, but we aren't any more accountable for the actions of the wackos than the next guy. I recognized that in your postings. You and many others here are the type of people I look to when I get all militant about what the wackos do. You remind me that the stable certainly outnumber the wackos. :) May you have a blessed day.
Thanks Eire!
I appreciate your articulate and informative posts.
You have a blessed day as well!:)

[nursebeeme]

May I just say that I have found your posts very informative, Eire.

May I also say that a cult does not have to be satanic or pagan in origin.

http://truthbeknown2000.tripod.com/T...2000/id22.html (http://truthbeknown2000.tripod.com/Truthbeknown2000/id22.html) I wanted to bump this link back up to the top on forms of torture that cults use (there are many that do not leave a mark like, spinning, near drowning, locking in boxes or coffins, blinding light, hanging upside down, forced ingestion of body fluids, list goes on.

Has anyone ever tossed around the idea that, if a gang does exist, they are filming the torture and deaths...like snuff film...as I recall the dicks saying that Chris Jenkins was most likely killed before his body was put in the water due to the position, clothes, etc

[Indigator]

I am still on the fence with certain elements of this case, although I do believe that it is unusual and unlikely to have so many accidental drownings in certain geographical areas and none in other areas. I am not sure about the "smiley face" feature and feel that some cases may be suicides or accidents but all deserve a second look. So, if one thinks these murders are part of a "cult", we have to assume that it is a cult that can be very quiet. That rules out criminal gangs and such, since these people would likely talk if arrested for a seperate crime and thought that trading information would help reduce their jail time. In that vein, the cult would have to be made of members that never run into the law-religious sorts maybe-priests, nuns, ministers or even military. In that case, what would be the motive?

[DeltaDawn]

I thought from what the detectives said someone who is in jail has talked. That they know who some of these people are, they are in small cells or pods located in many areas. The graffiti definitely looks gang related to me, but maybe they do that to throw LE off. Personally though I think they do it to leave their tag or mark for other members, as well as other gangs to see.

Dark Shadows and Vermont 03's uncle worked together in corrections. They took pictures of the tags because they both collect/photo graffiti. I bet they would have some real insight into what is going on here and the nature of these cells/pods.

[Blink34]

I am still on the fence with certain elements of this case, although I do believe that it is unusual and unlikely to have so many accidental drownings in certain geographical areas and none in other areas. I am not sure about the "smiley face" feature and feel that some cases may be suicides or accidents but all deserve a second look.
For me, Indie makes a very strong point. Whether or not just a few of these cases are connected, it is inconceivable that this amount of similar circumstances are accidents and they must therefore be re-investigated.
The potential victim, and the families deserve that.

So, if one thinks these murders are part of a "cult", we have to assume that it is a cult that can be very quiet. That rules out criminal gangs and such, since these people would likely talk if arrested for a seperate crime and thought that trading information would help reduce their jail time. In that vein, the cult would have to be made of members that never run into the law-religious sorts maybe-priests, nuns, ministers or even military. In that case, what would be the motive?

The motive would be whatever their belief structure feels they get, as a group or individual. Power? Promotion in the heirarchy? Power over others in some way. My gut feels the perception is that it has to be pretty big for such a large amount of possible victims and geography. I think the analysis on the grafitti is still out, the actual street name being written at a different location I find more compelling.

[Capt.]

Son of Sam, Charles Manson connection
from Geraldo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSyRbtQgOyo

[Blink34]

I'm confused, Capt. this is the "Satanic panic" shows that Geraldo ultimately had to apologize for and allegedly involved children, in what particular way might you think this relates to these cases?

[Capt.]

It's just something I came across. Dispite any panic Geraldo was generating, there was this person saying there was a connection between these two people as a cult. It appeared that the person that took part in both locations was known. I remember Berkowitz saying he was not working alone. So is there any more information? Was Geraldo being held accountable for what his guests said?

I understood that the branch of the thread called "Killer Cults" was started by shadowraith to discuss this aspect without derailing the main thread.

[Eire]

Even the people who run charlesmanson.com scoff at the notion that Berkowitz and/or Manson were involved in a murderous cult. Geraldo apologized in public for his special on the subject, and while he is not accountable for what his guests said, I'd wager that he found the ones with the most way out there stories to generate more revenue for th show.

[Capt.]

I would call the book writer likely questionable, but I'm not sure I can call the officer as being in Geraldo's pocket.

[Capt.]

Aside from any possible son of sam cult, there is a cult that operates that Wis area, stretching down to Dubuque and over to Milwaukee. They started as a self styled group.

[Blink34]

It's just something I came across. Dispite any panic Geraldo was generating, there was this person saying there was a connection between these two people as a cult. It appeared that the person that took part in both locations was known. I remember Berkowitz saying he was not working alone. So is there any more information? Was Geraldo being held accountable for what his guests said?

I understood that the branch of the thread called "Killer Cults" was started by shadowraith to discuss this aspect without derailing the main thread.

No captain, your exactly right, all possible cult theories are open to discussion here, I dont think you can have a "cult" thread and not run the sublime to the ridiculous!

I was just asking you what your thoughts were about that particular avenue in relations to these cases-

[Blink34]

Even the people who run charlesmanson.com scoff at the notion that Berkowitz and/or Manson were involved in a murderous cult. Geraldo apologized in public for his special on the subject, and while he is not accountable for what his guests said, I'd wager that he found the ones with the most way out there stories to generate more revenue for th show.

Ok not debating the editorial integrity of Geraldo, but how can anyone say Manson was not part of a murderous cult? That would seem a matter of fact- no?

[Blink34]

Aside from any possible son of sam cult, there is a cult that operates that Wis area, stretching down to Dubuque and over to Milwaukee. They started as a self styled group.

What is the name of that cult, capt? What's their- "thing" or belief system, etc? Who is it made up of?

[Capt.]

What is the name of that cult, capt? What's their- "thing" or belief system, etc? Who is it made up of?

The belief system would be wide base satanism. I am not able to tell more due to hipaa concerns.

[Blink34]

The belief system would be wide base satanism. I am not able to tell more due to hipaa concerns.

ok, trying to be delicate, tell me if I can't ask- do you mean because of injuries reflecting satanism that you see or are aware of in some way?

[DeltaDawn]

Welcome to the River Killers case Capt. What does hipaa have to do with this..confidentality over medical records..so either you saw something or someone told you something in medical confidence..interesting.

Also I have done some research into Berkowitz. The detectives on his case as well as the prosecutor felt he did not act alone and the case was reopened in the mid to late 90's. They believe this was a group effort, that he was at each of the murders, but wasn't the shooter at each murder. He also did belong to a cult at that time, that LE was aware of. And he has spoken about briefly, Manson II, whether that was another group or an individual was never clear. Right after that he had his throat slit in prison..and he refuses to speak about it any longer.

As far as Mason goes if he wasn't running his own version of a killer cult then I don't know how someone would describe what the Manson did..they murdered people and continued to murder people even after he was arrested. He even ran a website from prison.

[Capt.]

some physical, mental injuries, and first hand accounts from participants.

In short HIPAA deals with confidentiality of client concerns within health care.

[Blink34]

Um ok, got it.

Then can I ask you a general question, non specific to any member-

Who makes up these groups and what do they worship, what is their end goal?
Are there any similarities to the victims in these cases of young men?

[Capt.]

Not really sure I could say they really worship anything. Maybe appreciate darkness of humanity, esoteric knowledge, growth of self and mainly control. I believe their goals are related to that, and the individual seeking of identity, meaning, and value. I don't see similarities to the victims being all young men. Maybe that is because it might be easier to lure men by women?

[Indigator]

Capt-As long is it is non-identifiable information, you don't need to be concerned about HIPAA. Theoretically, you can discuss any clinical case as long as you don't discuss WHO the case is about.

[SeriouslySearching]

Welcome to WS, Capt.! You have certainly caught my attention here. I understand the rules, but if you are not discussing specific medically related issues or divulging the origins...you would not be going against HIPAA. Then again, I am not a lawyer.

Generalizing the concept of this widebased cult theory, is it associated with a "hazing" process to prove their loyalty or to enter a cult? Are they professional people (college graduates)? Are they related to colleges in such a way that would put them in contact with the victims besides being in a bar?

[Capt.]

Capt-As long is it is non-identifiable information, you don't need to be concerned about HIPAA. Theoretically, you can discuss any clinical case as long as you don't discuss WHO the case is about.

Another problem is, giving information that can place someone in danger by identifing methods and situations related to that person by others in the group. I'll give what I feel I can give safely for those involved. I am sure if one of the group read what I have wrote so far, they would know I am talking about them. Because this was in a health care situation, I am more concerned with the individuals health than I am trying to solve some crime which if I did, would only be by some "ham fisted" attempt.

Welcome to WS, Capt.! You have certainly caught my attention here. I understand the rules, but if you are not discussing specific medically related issues or divulging the origins...you would not be going against HIPAA. Then again, I am not a lawyer.

Generalizing the concept of this widebased cult theory, is it associated with a "hazing" process to prove their loyalty or to enter a cult? Are they professional people (college graduates)? Are they related to colleges in such a way that would put them in contact with the victims besides being in a bar?

I would say most if not all are college graduates and professional people. They do not need the colleges for victims. It is my belief that their own group provides many victims. Might be able to call it hazing after a year or so. More so, I do feel they want the members to "believe" they are guilty of a felony for control over them.

[Blink34]

Another problem is, giving information that can place someone in danger by identifing methods and situations related to that person by others in the group. I'll give what I feel I can give safely for those involved. I am sure if one of the group read what I have wrote so far, they would know I am talking about them. Because this was in a health care situation, I am more concerned with the individuals health than I am trying to solve some crime which if I did, would only be by some "ham fisted" attempt.



I would say most if not all are college graduates and professional people. They do not need the colleges for victims. It is my belief that their own group provides many victims. Might be able to call it hazing after a year or so. More so, I do feel they want the members to "believe" they are guilty of a felony for control over them.


Capt- Im really appreciative of your input and am sensitive to your conerns of course, but to what end does a ritual or sacrifice matter for them in the aforementioned areas?
ie: Killer A sacrifices his vic for the reason he thinks it will bring success and money.
Killer B offers a sacrifice for the group for all to prosper
Killer C tortures vic to keep those in line

Can you suggest a scenario along those lines based on your expereince?

[Indigator]

I am confused. Sometimes it doesn't take much.

[Blink34]

I am confused. Sometimes it doesn't take much.
from my post Indie?

[Indigator]

Not just your post-the whole cult thing. I have trouble understanding this and probably should do some background reading. I don't understand the line of thinking that Cap'n is explaining and the questions make it even more confusing to me.

[Indigator]

Just overall with the conversation :)

[Blink34]

May be me, Im having trouble asking it correctly-
I want any theory on why men are dieing potentially, at the hands of a cult as the theory is being explored. Im not familiar with a "cult" sacrificing anything without a motive. I was hoping Capt, could shed some light-

[Indigator]

Maybe the motive is simply to please the gods, very primitive but certainly around for a long time...please the gods and get favors in return.

[SeriouslySearching]

I would say most if not all are college graduates and professional people. They do not need the colleges for victims. It is my belief that their own group provides many victims. Might be able to call it hazing after a year or so. More so, I do feel they want the members to "believe" they are guilty of a felony for control over them.So they are intelligent. They are controlling over others in the group. They insure their silence by creating scenarios where they are led to believe they will go to jail when in fact...they could be innocent. Others in the group did not gain their status until a couple of years into it after they "proved" themselves to be loyal and willing participants. Colleges aren't the key which leaves the bars, the bands, the streets, LE, friends, and families.

Am I off base on what I gleaned from your comment?

[Eire]

Ok not debating the editorial integrity of Geraldo, but how can anyone say Manson was not part of a murderous cult? That would seem a matter of fact- no?

Manson was not part of the Process Church, that's what I'm saying. There are those who would link Manson, Son of Sam and Zodiac to the same group which they believe is a wide-spread Satanic murder cult. No such thing exists.

[Eire]

Not to be rude, snide or otherwise snotty, but we had this discussion on the Johnny Gosch thread. Apparently, the Temple of Set is behind everything form Johnny Gosch to this case if you believe the heavy hint dropping. Again, I'm sincerely not trying to be rude, but the conspiracy theories about some deep rooted, Satanic group operating underground for decades don't serve us well as they are unfounded. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions. This is pretty much why I'm so prickly about the subject of cult killings. Every time they get brought up, the same Satanic cult things get thrown out there and they are not true. HIPPA laws don't apply to naming a group in public anyway, they only apply to naming a specific patient who is or was under one's care.

Simply put, there are those who would love to turn this into another Johnny Gosch conspiracy theory festival.

[Blink34]

Eire-
I have read your posts with great interest, and frankly have been educated by them on subject matter that is new to me personally.

That being said, let's establish that there ARE several occurances, in history, that have had some sort of verifiable, floabw, cult undercurrent or involvement. That is not a slam on Paganism or Satanism, because that I am aware, neither of those followings openly or otherwise condones ritualistic murder or other. People imo, who want to do things that are by all of our agreements "evil"- are going to do what they have to to reign others in under some guise, or in some cases, fear. I would like to refer to them going forward as fringe. I say that because it is no different than I feel when I see someone/occurance that is manifested in God's name. I am christian, and I have never been told by my higher power to marry a dude with 7 wives, throw my baby in the bathtub or stalk young males.

Like it or not, if even 2 of these cases are connected, and personally I feel there are several, this IS a conspiracy. You can't blame an entire religion (whether you believe in it's teachings or not) because it is the PEOPLE that commit these crimes, because they have the need to justify the actions they seemed to be called from a very young age. I may take the heat for this, but I truly believe that sometimes people are born evil, pure and simple. They simply find the inspiration out there to develop themselves, or group, to commit evil upon others.

[Eire]

And I would agree with you, but blaming one specific group which has nothing at all to do with any of the horrible things we read about is wrong. It is wrong and it is irresponsible. This isn't the first time people have come here trying to blame the Temple of Set for things they had nothing to do with and I feel that is irresponsible and I will speak up about it. He's not talking about one person in a group, he's talking about the entire group. One person killing people is not a conspiracy. Two people is not a conspiracy. Blaming an entire group and in this case an entire religion is. That is exactly what happened in the Johnny Gosch thread and that's what's going to happen here. We'll just blame the Satanists because we want to. It's easier to let that myth cloud our judgment than it is to look at anything else. Trying to be the voice of reason on the subject is especially difficult around here.

[Blink34]

Unless I'm missing it, I dont see anyone doing that, I have seen references to KNOWN cases where some stated religious or cult influences which are self-proclaimed and verifiable facts in investigations. So, again. basically, just stating the possibility of an origin of someone's membership or knowledge base of a specific belief system is not indicting the rest and respectfully, imo, your running the risk of "reverse conspiracying" by being cart blanche defensive about known facts. I'm intersted in finding the people responsible for whatever crimes were committed to these young men, NOT a witch hunt. I personally loathe Jim Jones but I still let my kids drink Kool-Aid on occasion. Point is, Im not going to blame an entire group for the acts of a fringe former or other member- I feel WS posts so far are able to seperate and be objective. Your a good source of info and a good contributor to this thread, for me your religion or congregates in general are not being examined here so carry on:)

[DeltaDawn]

And I would agree with you, but blaming one specific group which has nothing at all to do with any of the horrible things we read about is wrong. It is wrong and it is irresponsible. This isn't the first time people have come here trying to blame the Temple of Set for things they had nothing to do with and I feel that is irresponsible and I will speak up about it. He's not talking about one person in a group, he's talking about the entire group. One person killing people is not a conspiracy. Two people is not a conspiracy. Blaming an entire group and in this case an entire religion is. That is exactly what happened in the Johnny Gosch thread and that's what's going to happen here. We'll just blame the Satanists because we want to. It's easier to let that myth cloud our judgment than it is to look at anything else. Trying to be the voice of reason on the subject is especially difficult around here.

Who is the he you are referring to in your post? Did you mean Geraldo?

I honestly don't believe that anyone here is blaming the Temple of Set over any other religion or group. I think we all are thinking this is more of an extremist fringe group of someone's own making, doing their own thing, obviously very much unbeknownst to others. I am beginning to think of this group almost as a murder club..along the lines of fightclubs. That somehow found each other on the internet and were able to organize and expand. Somone like Manson perhaps..who would never in his life have been able to be a follower of any other belief system or rules but his own.

What are your particular theories on who might be behind this group of individuals?

[nursebeeme]

Capt...welcome...you said this:


Another problem is, giving information that can place someone in danger by identifing methods and situations related to that person by others in the group. I'll give what I feel I can give safely for those involved. I am sure if one of the group read what I have wrote so far, they would know I am talking about them. Because this was in a health care situation, I am more concerned with the individuals health than I am trying to solve some crime which if I did, would only be by some "ham fisted" attempt.


Capt, were any of those 'methods' you mentioned in common with the way that cults can use to torture someone without leaving a mark (previous link above a few times)?

Without disclosing any info that could harm yourself or other professionals...have you been concerned that members you have interfaced with could have the motive and connection to be responsible here?

TIA, capt... I am respect your distance as a fellow health care professional.

[nursebeeme]

Capt, I again echo what you are saying and I have been "thinking" what you said in the following from the get~go in one way, shape or form:


I would say most if not all are college graduates and professional people. They do not need the colleges for victims. It is my belief that their own group provides many victims. Might be able to call it hazing after a year or so. More so, I do feel they want the members to "believe" they are guilty of a felony for control over them.


Have you contacted authorities, or at least the NY dicks, retired, with this info...or are they already on it (from msm interviews I would assume that they are already very well aware of this group you are talking about since they were confident they even had enough data to arrest POIs...)

You also, with your professional respect of HIPAA, must surely struggle with personal (including your family) safety vs the laws of mandatory reporting. I do not not know you or your family but as a healthcare professional, I know that in a time like this the mandatory reporting would absolutely take a backseat to personal safety. If you happen to be in this boat I would pass the info on either annonymously or through another channel. However, if you have info on anything hinkey that can stop this absolutly WRONG series of crimes...you should FOR SURE pass this on in some way, shape, or form to someone who can stop it right in it's tracks immediately. This story has the attention of the MSM and they are a powerful tool.

I wish you God speed and pray that, if you know anything that can truly help, that you forward it to the change agents that can put this dog in his doghouse. Simply posting it here and stating personal fear and HIPAA are not enough. There are many lives already lost and many more that could follow.

[Blink34]

Who is the he you are referring to in your post? Did you mean Geraldo?

I honestly don't believe that anyone here is blaming the Temple of Set over any other religion or group. I think we all are thinking this is more of an extremist fringe group of someone's own making, doing their own thing, obviously very much unbeknownst to others. I am beginning to think of this group almost as a murder club..along the lines of fightclubs. That somehow found each other on the internet and were able to organize and expand. Somone like Manson perhaps..who would never in his life have been able to be a follower of any other belief system or rules but his own.

What are your particular theories on who might be behind this group of individuals?

I echo DD sentiments and am interested in any input you might have as to theory-

[Blink34]

Capt, I again echo what you are saying and I have been "thinking" what you said in the following from the get~go in one way, shape or form:



Have you contacted authorities, or at least the NY dicks, retired, with this info...or are they already on it (from msm interviews I would assume that they are already very well aware of this group you are talking about since they were confident they even had enough data to arrest POIs...)

You also, with your professional respect of HIPAA, must surely struggle with personal (including your family) safety vs the laws of mandatory reporting. I do not not know you or your family but as a healthcare professional, I know that in a time like this the mandatory reporting would absolutely take a backseat to personal safety. If you happen to be in this boat I would pass the info on either annonymously or through another channel. However, if you have info on anything hinkey that can stop this absolutly WRONG series of crimes...you should FOR SURE pass this on in some way, shape, or form to someone who can stop it right in it's tracks immediately. This story has the attention of the MSM and they are a powerful tool.

I wish you God speed and pray that, if you know anything that can truly help, that you forward it to the change agents that can put this dog in his doghouse. Simply posting it here and stating personal fear and HIPAA are not enough. There are many lives already lost and many more that could follow.
NBM- just closing the loop, I posted this on the general thread to you as well-
The detectives have this info, I thought your post was responsible and eloquent.

[Capt.]

If I recall, nobody has mentioned Temple of Set, Gosch, or any organised groups of the Church of Satan until Eire mentioned it.

I was describing a group of nondescript, self-styled, wide based satanists, who I have had personal experience with.
(I would describe Richard Ramirez the same way)

It goes without saying that there are people that are not happy that I have had this experience and more displeased that I talk about it. Since it is my experience, they find it hard to argue its happening and can only try to discredit the source.


Since this thread is about killing cults in regards to the area in question, I mentioned it.

I don't have a scenario for the male drownings other than proof of allegiance of other members to the group. I suppose if the victims were members, it might have something to do with a suicide pact, but I think that is highly unlikely.

I am sure local authorities are informed. I have a good friend in the public defender office in the area and he knows about them.

Just a note: I don't look at these things from a religious background as I am an atheist.

[Capt.]

Without a mark? Sure it's possible with chemicals/meds, but there might be a needle mark.

As far as the other question, yes it is possible, but still conjecture.




Capt...welcome...you said this:

Capt, were any of those 'methods' you mentioned in common with the way that cults can use to torture someone without leaving a mark (previous link above a few times)?

Without disclosing any info that could harm yourself or other professionals...have you been concerned that members you have interfaced with could have the motive and connection to be responsible here?

TIA, capt... I am respect your distance as a fellow health care professional.

[Blink34]

Without a mark? Sure it's possible with chemicals/meds, but there might be a needle mark.

As far as the other question, yes it is possible, but still conjecture.


Following up on SS question is a general way-
What is the obligation if any, on a part of a Health Care or Medical provider, in the event that suspicion would become more than coonjecture to alert LE?

[Capt.]

Following up on SS question is a general way-
What is the obligation if any, on a part of a Health Care or Medical provider, in the event that suspicion would become more than coonjecture to alert LE?

I think SS statements would be correct. As far as the threshold of alert, I would say it is prior knowledge of a illegal upcoming event, which would place the client in 72hr observation, and possibly destroy any trust bond that existed. So the LE would not be called unless there was reason to believe a crime will be commited. Anything else on past crimes is hearsay and unless the client would be willing to testify is useless.
That is the way I see it.
Bye now I gotta get some work done.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for the response, Capt. At least, it tells me a few things reading between the lines. I understand where you are coming from in that you are trying to give only generalized information. (I also understand where Nurse is coming from, too.)

We all want this to stop and would want all information directly given to the people who are willing to make it stop. I was encouraged by the blog on the news site today of people who were sending in tips and knowing they were being forwarded to those concerned. It has been difficult to sit here day after day and knowing that the various police departments have literally turned a blind eye to people wanting this solved and offering help to that end.

I can't imagine how the families must feel! The frustration, the brickwalls, and the possibility they will never know what happened to their rising stars. I applaud the Detectives. They are their only hope to right the injustice and bring to light the incompetence surrounding each of the investigations. My hope is that when this all comes out, LE is going to have to rethink the way they handle situations in the future to save other families from going through such hell.

By the way, Capt. I have no doubt about what you are saying is true. Thanks for bringing it to the table. People need to understand it isn't about attacking one group or another as Eire seems to think. I know for a fact these groups DO exist and have seen proof of it (LE has that proof). Being from the midsection of America, you would never expect it to happen here...but it has and I have to believe it continues. This isn't anything new and it has been going on for 20 years plus (only from my direct knowledge as I am sure it went on long before).

[shadowraiths]

Without a mark? Sure it's possible with chemicals/meds, but there might be a needle mark.
Speaking of ... from June 2007 article:

Danielle Duggan: Investigating a mystery in Campustown (http://www.midiowanews.com/site/tab1.cfm?newsid=18453015&BRD=2700&PAG=461&dept_id=554432&rfi=6)
By: Danielle Duggan/The Tribune
06/08/2007
Updated 06/16/2007 12:06:04 AM CDT

(...) Ten minutes later, they came out and were happy to report they didn't find any hypodermic needles (...)

[shadowraiths]

I think SS statements would be correct. As far as the threshold of alert, I would say it is prior knowledge of a illegal upcoming event, which would place the client in 72hr observation, and possibly destroy any trust bond that existed. So the LE would not be called unless there was reason to believe a crime will be committed. Anything else on past crimes is hearsay and unless the client would be willing to testify is useless.
That is the way I see it.
While I realize "That is the way [you] see it," I do hope, as a mental health provider (MHP), your informed consent covers the following two legal exceptions to the confidentiality clause.

Duty to report => if the MHP suspects their client is abusing a child, the MHP must report said "suspected abuse" to the proper authorities. This is a direct result of the 1974 CAPTA legislation (http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/about.cfm).


Duty to warn => if the client conveys a threat of future harm to a known party, the MHP must not only contact LE but must also make a reasonable effort to contact the potential victim. This ruling was a direct result of Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_Californi a)

As far as the 72-hour hold bit? Involuntary psychiatric holds vary from state to state and are expressly dependent upon the state's MH treatment codes. For example, Florida has a 72 hour hold, under the "Baker Act," California has a 72 hour hold, referred to as a "5150" under the "Lanterman-Petris-Short Act," and Pennsylvania has a 120 hour hold under the "Mental Health Procedures Act." What "involuntary psychiatric holds" do share however is the basic criteria of a person being a danger to self or others. The latter, not to be confused with "duty to warn." Furthermore, an MHP cannot put anyone on a psychiatric hold. In fact, LE are responsible for putting an individual on psychiatric hold by transporting said individual to a designated facility, at which point an acting licensed physician (PhD or MD) is the only one who can release the individual from the hold prior to the maximum alloted hold time as designated by that state's MH treatment code.

As for the HIPAA bit? HIPAA was enacted in 1996 to address electronic storage and communications issues for insurance providers, primarily, and actuarial researchers, secondarily. Under HIPAA, as with paper records, electronic records must be kept for a minimum of 7 years. Additionally, the stored data must be deidentified and the electronic transfer of data must conform to x.25 protocol as set forth by the HIPAA steering committee. And finally, while confidentiality—which has been around since well before anyone ever dreamed up the HIPAA acronym—is the basis of this law, HIPAA addresses a very narrow area with regard to confidentiality rules. Or otherwise put, HIPAA simply does not apply to this particular discussion.

[Capt.]

Thanks shadow for the specifics, I gave the quick and easy answer.


these 2 didn't apply to this situation. No child involved and no future upcoming event with a known person.
*******
Duty to report => if the MHP suspects their client is abusing a child, the MHP must report said "suspected abuse" to the proper authorities. This is a direct result of the 1974 CAPTA legislation (http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/about.cfm)



Duty to warn => if the client conveys a threat of future harm to a known party, the MHP must not only contact LE but must also make a reasonable effort to contact the potential victim. This ruling was a direct result of Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_Californi a)

[nursebeeme]

capt, nice that no child was involved. But can that make you sleep any easier keeping it private as a 'professional'?

Duty to report and compelled to report as a professional are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FEELING GROUPS.

Your lack of reporting SPEAKS VOLUMES TO ME AS A FELLOW MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL!

[Capt.]

could you, be more direct?

Are you accusing me of not reporting something that in my situation was really impossible to report with hard info? Wouldn't you need to know the particulars of that situation to accuse somebody of that? What EXACTLY did I fail to report?

I'll admit that I am not that vested in this site(certainly not a sleuth) and sometimes try to give the quick and easy answer to questions to give room to my real life.

[SeriouslySearching]

I appreciate your input, Capt. People are frustrated about these cases and want answers.

I respect that without any hard evidence it is just hearsay. However, I would like to know as much as you are comfortable with saying. There is no reason for you to have to be defensive here and sorry that has happened. We all have one goal and that is to find everything we can which can shed some light on these occurances.

[Blink34]

Maybe the motive is simply to please the gods, very primitive but certainly around for a long time...please the gods and get favors in return.


BINGO

[Blink34]

could you, be more direct?

Are you accusing me of not reporting something that in my situation was really impossible to report with hard info? Wouldn't you need to know the particulars of that situation to accuse somebody of that? What EXACTLY did I fail to report?

I'll admit that I am not that vested in this site(certainly not a sleuth) and sometimes try to give the quick and easy answer to questions to give room to my real life.

Capt- I do not feel I am in a position to judge you and I feel you have been upfront that your posts must be floabw, "loose". We are all entitled to our anonymity here, especially considering the subject matter on this thread. Please continue to contribute as I feel strongly that you have more to offer even as "generalizations"

[Capt.]

If I have read the post wrong then I apologize to nursebeeme. I have reported all that I should legally and withheld all that I legally should. I really have few generalizations to share as most my experience is with this particular group and with past members that want to stay that way. It would be very easy for me to go into depth of the extremes I have heard, seen, or learned, but I see no reason to become a lightening rod for those that think it is unbelievable, plus that's not what this thread is for. Debate is not what I'm after, nor am I trying to make someone believe.

If you would like insight from a survivor of abuse, please go to this site.

http://lynnsart.net

[DeltaDawn]

Interesting Capt and I agree you have legally done what is right by all accounts. I also agree that there is more to this group then meets the eye and the detectives are being as open as they can without over stepping ..an early arrest of a few would not solve this entire case..because much and many more are involved and it goes deeper then we expect..again those are just my feelings..I have no credible info or facts to base this premise.

[Blink34]

If I have read the post wrong then I apologize to nursebeeme. I have reported all that I should legally and withheld all that I legally should. I really have few generalizations to share as most my experience is with this particular group and with past members that want to stay that way. It would be very easy for me to go into depth of the extremes I have heard, seen, or learned, but I see no reason to become a lightening rod for those that think it is unbelievable, plus that's not what this thread is for. Debate is not what I'm after, nor am I trying to make someone believe.

If you would like insight from a survivor of abuse, please go to this site.

http://lynnsart.net

Capt- If you can, there are those of us on this thread for exactly what you are willing to share, your experience. I personally feel your indepth knowledge is exactly what this thread was designed for. Please don't do the "pillbug"- share:blowkiss:

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for sharing that site, Capt. It is fascinating and disturbing. I won't say I don't believe it because after some of the things we have seen on this site alone...the freaks are out there. People doing horrific things we could not imagine before we started studying cases is almost mindboggling. When I swear I have seen all the depravity a human can come up with...another case hits the desk. They are all quite unbelievable before facts come to the surface. Then it just goes directly to sickening.

[Capt.]

Another quick and easy link with good data
I find the archives/newsletters especially interesting for a better understanding.


http://www.coreintegrity.org/ (http://www.coreintegrity.org/)

[MeoW333]

Capt, you are doing right by following procedure with Hippa laws.
Also, if any information you know could put you personally, or your family in harm's way, do not risk it.

[nursebeeme]

Another problem is, giving information that can place someone in danger by identifing methods and situations related to that person by others in the group. I'll give what I feel I can give safely for those involved. I am sure if one of the group read what I have wrote so far, they would know I am talking about them. Because this was in a health care situation, I am more concerned with the individuals health than I am trying to solve some crime which if I did, would only be by some "ham fisted" attempt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriouslySearching http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2212042#post2212042)
Welcome to WS, Capt.! You have certainly caught my attention here. I understand the rules, but if you are not discussing specific medically related issues or divulging the origins...you would not be going against HIPAA. Then again, I am not a lawyer.

Generalizing the concept of this widebased cult theory, is it associated with a "hazing" process to prove their loyalty or to enter a cult? Are they professional people (college graduates)? Are they related to colleges in such a way that would put them in contact with the victims besides being in a bar?

I would say most if not all are college graduates and professional people. They do not need the colleges for victims. It is my belief that their own group provides many victims. Might be able to call it hazing after a year or so. More so, I do feel they want the members to "believe" they are guilty of a felony for control over them.


Sorry if I seemed like I was flaming, capt. When you stated the above it sure came off that you had more specific knowledge....enough to perhaps prevent another crime. I can see, and respect, that you are protecting the trust in your therapeutic relationship.

Sorry again.

[DeltaDawn]

Okay..let's get real here for just a moment..

We all know that no single individual, or even a pair, could have accomplished this large scale operation on their own over this many years..

I believe that we are looking at a group of individuals who are using this method, so far undetected, as an initiation. Be they cult or gang..they are evil.. and I am still thinking that they are a combo of both..a cult you can never leave..a gang you can never leave..because you have participated in the ultimate horror..killing someone for no reason other then to kill..no social issue, no ethnic issue, no war..just to kill to..and prove that you are one with them.

Sad comment on our world society in general..because I think that if people would look..similiar things are going on around the world.

[Blink34]

I agree with DD, absolutely. Before I post this, I want to remind all on here that this is a cult theory thread, and I would not post this anywhere but here as a result.
But if your running down the above, meaning working through the theory to either disprove or conclude, and you consider the input on this thread already; we need to entertain the possibility that in all these cases, it is probable that more than one of the victims may have been a previous participant- that's how some of these cults work, they sacrifice one of their own to keep others in line- anybody have any thoughts on that?

[DeltaDawn]

I agree Blink. These murders of young, intelligent, athletic men who are, by that description alone, a conquest of sorts for this group. To show ultimate control, over the men murdered and the others in the group. And at this point even ultimate control over society and LE as they have not been caught yet. In fact not even detected.

I think it is possible that one or two of the vics knew these people and either chose to leave or not participate..but this is not a group where those are choices. You either chose to belong and belong for life or you are dealt with in a heinous manner.

[Blink34]

I agree Blink. These murders of young, intelligent, athletic men who are, by that description alone, a conquest of sorts for this group. To show ultimate control, over the men murdered and the others in the group. And at this point even ultimate control over society and LE as they have not been caught yet. In fact not even detected.

I think it is possible that one or two of the vics knew these people and either chose to leave or not participate..but this is not a group where those are choices. You either chose to belong and belong for life or you are dealt with in a heinous manner.

I think this happens in these "groups"- it was verified on this thread by a professional. It is the last thing anyone wants to think about but isn't that then how they continue to function undetected??

[SeriouslySearching]

Hmmm...until you mentioned it, Blink...I had not thought of that possibility. I definitely have something to ponder now.

[Blink34]

Hmmm...until you mentioned it, Blink...I had not thought of that possibility. I definitely have something to ponder now.

I think the confirmation lies in the Lacrosse coincidences, just can't get there yet..

[DeltaDawn]

I think it also lies in the nights when 2 abductions and murders take place states apart. It is almost like a hit. And either those dates or those individuals have a very specific meaning to this group..otherwise why 2 on one given date?

[SeriouslySearching]

Gangs are getting rather sophisticated even hiring PIs to check up on members:

An established source with excellent internal access to the MS-13 gang reported members are using private investigators to investigate members who are suspected to be cooperating with law enforcement. Purportedly in one case, two MS-13 members hired a private investigator to look into the source of the information for the most recent gang enforcement action in Los Angeles. Information obtained by the private investigator is used to place "green lights" on identified individuals who are working with law enforcement.

~snip~

Documented communication between gang members in El Salvador and the leaders of MS-13 cliques in Maryland, just outside the U.S. capital, suggests a high level of central command as well. As Virginia contains a heavy MS-13 presence in the National Capitol Region it is possible this practice is being utilized in Virginia as well.

http://www.ogia.us/news/ms13.htm

[Blink34]

I think it also lies in the nights when 2 abductions and murders take place states apart. It is almost like a hit. And either those dates or those individuals have a very specific meaning to this group..otherwise why 2 on one given date?

DD- can you say which ones you are referring to? I'm not sure I am following you- are you saying there are 2 murders occurring simultaneously states apart?

[DeltaDawn]

Hi Blink..yes that is what I mean. Here are some names to start. These are from Shadowraith.
1997-12-31: Ryan Getz, Student, 21, East Lansing, MI [Drowning]
1997-12-31: Larry Andrews, N/A, 22, NYC, NY [Drowning]
2006-04-01: Wade Michael Lurk, Student, 17, Ste. Genevieve, MO [Drowning]
2006-04-01: Brian Shaffer, Student, 27, Columbus, OH
[Missing]


I think Fran has more in her timeline from this year..on the general discussion thread#4, post #241.

I think there are possibly more because the detectives have at times made reference to the fact that /abductions/murders took place states apart on the same date.

[Blink34]

Hi Blink..yes that is what I mean. Here are some names to start. These are from Shadowraith.
1997-12-31: Ryan Getz, Student, 21, East Lansing, MI [Drowning]
1997-12-31: Larry Andrews, N/A, 22, NYC, NY [Drowning]
2006-04-01: Wade Michael Lurk, Student, 17, Ste. Genevieve, MO [Drowning]
2006-04-01: Brian Shaffer, Student, 27, Columbus, OH
[Missing]


I think Fran has more in her timeline from this year..on the general discussion thread#4, post #241.


Yes, ok, DD- I'm with you, thanks for clarifying for me :)

[DeltaDawn]

So does anyone have any ideas of a current cult, gang, or group that we might be dealing with? We know that a couple of the members, if we call them that, were in jail from Gannon's appearance on Al Rooney's show on WGY last week. I believe he said they had talked to a couple of the people when they were incarcerated?

[Blink34]

So does anyone have any ideas of a current cult, gang, or group that we might be dealing with? We know that a couple of the members, if we call them that, were in jail from Gannon's appearance on Al Rooney's show on WGY last week. I believe he said they had talked to a couple of the people when they were incarcerated?

UM, creepy-*ss comments from Huff's site:

http://www.4p2.org/

From Huff site, Georgie:

Ok, did some more research on four pi, what the hell IS the smiley face doing on 4p2? This is from rigorousintuition.blogspot.com- On July 13, 1970, CA highway patrol arrested two men on suspicion of hit and run. Stanley Baker and his buddy admiited to fleeing the scene, and also to being cannibals. Human finger bones were found in their pockets, belonging to a victim whose mutilated body was also missing the heart, which Baker said he ate. Get this-"Baker claimed he had been recruited into a neo-Nazi cult while in a Wyoming college, which he identified as the "Four Pi Movement", also known as 4P. It was a splinter of the Process Church, which itself had broken away from the Church of Scientology. The name was derived from the Processean symbol of 4 P's arranged in a stylized Swastika, representing Jehovah, Jesus, Lucifer and Satan. (Members were urged to pick one that they could identify with and devote themselves to that deity). Four P rituals were conducted on the basis of a stellar timetable, including the sacrifice of Doberman and German Shepard dogs." 4p2=Smiley Face gang???

From the same poster, 2 diff sign ins:
~snip~

I get the "Neo Process Church of Final Judgment"
I get the "4p2" "4pi squared"
I get the German shepherd fixation
I get the four pi symbol
I get the "As it is" and "So be it"
I get the "now taking requests for entry"
I get the "Manson2" reference
I get the David Berkowitz symbol

SO WHAT IS THE SMILEY DOING THERE??
(it is the famous red smiley, not the dot-nose smiley's)

Is the a joke site or is this somebody recruiting for four pi?
Whats the deal here? Anybody...~snip~
Nognihc Dnarg Siht Llik Su Tel

[Blink34]

http://www.process.org/discept/

Note the invitation to darknet or TOR

[DeltaDawn]

Blink I am right there speculating with you. I do not think this is gang involvement.

I do believe that this is a cult that is active across the US..that is an off-shoot of The Process and Manson2 and that Berkowitz may know more then he has ever publically revealed.

Berkowitz was part of a satanic cult that was an off-shoot of the Process Church and Mansion2. In the park in their local area they would sacrifice German Shepard dogs. The police locally were aware of this cult and the German Shepard sacrifices. This group is also who was involved in Son of Sam Killings, along with Berkowitz. In the mid to late 90's Berkowitz started to talk to local LE and DA from prison about this group and other things he knew of happening. He was sliced from one side of this neck to the other right after that..yes while still in prison... and has refused for his family's sake to ever talk again about these groups. He fears for their safety. That tells you something. Berkowitz does not want to leave prison..he knows he is safer there then on the streets.

Through this case I have often wondered if the person that was interviewed in prison was Berkowitz. They know he knows alot because he was even able to tell them the dates one of his friends was murdered..it was after he was in jail..the friend was no longer in NY but in the midwest..Wisconsin or Minnesota I believe. This friend and his brother both were members of the same cult. His friend's brother is also dead , of a one vehicle accident........ Berkowitz is in prison in NY.

These people and their warped ideas do exist.

Previously many sites that featured Charles Manson also featured a smiley face...in the last month or two that has been taken off their sites..........Hmmmm.

[Blink34]

DD-
Were you able to locate any of these relatives names or can you provide a link?

I am holding off about saying more right now until I can check a few things out, but want to give you credit where credit is due- I think you came up with some of possibilities in these "fringes" that I am not referring to specifically right now- also I think it is a "cross pollination" of a few of these "sects."

[DeltaDawn]

DD-
Were you able to locate any of these relatives names or can you provide a link?

I am holding off about saying more right now until I can check a few things out, but want to give you credit where credit is due- I think you came up with some of possibilities in these "fringes" that I am not referring to specifically right now- also I think it is a "cross pollination" of a few of these "sects."

Blink I have spent many hours looking for relatives and contacts and they just aren't visible on the internet. I think that this group has evolved since the Manson days and the Berkowitz days ..but who and where is still a puzzle at this point.

Have a wondeful vacation and relax... that is easier said then done I know..but ths will still be here when you get back.

Peace and Hugs
DD

[Blink34]

Blink I have spent many hours looking for relatives and contacts and they just aren't visible on the internet. I think that this group has evolved since the Manson days and the Berkowitz days ..but who and where is still a puzzle at this point.

Have a wondeful vacation and relax... that is easier said then done I know..but ths will still be here when you get back.

Peace and Hugs
DD

Got it, DD, I know what a skilled researcher and educated theorist you are- no question.
For some reason, today, I feel like the answer to these cases are in some of the "organizations" we have already spoken of, albeit hybrids at this point, and I cannot shake it, not even for 5 minutes- I will try on my vacay (prepare for the middle of the night postings while my kids are sleeping-vacation for them, NOT for us :)

[Peace261]

I think this happens in these "groups"- it was verified on this thread by a professional. It is the last thing anyone wants to think about but isn't that then how they continue to function undetected??

Hello everyone ... just finished reading through this thread ... and found it from my interest in a couple of other loosely related topics on missing college students.

I honestly do not know what to say other than I am absolutely fascinated that this could be going on today ... and likely for centuries and we are just a few who are learning about the possible inner workings of these groups.

I will continue to follow and attempt to ask a question at the right time.

Just incredible.

Sincerely;
Peace

[Blink34]

Welcome, seems odd I know given the subject matter, but I'm sure I speak for all my colleague WS'rs that new perspectives are very welcome here.

[Peace261]

Welcome, seems odd I know given the subject matter, but I'm sure I speak for all my colleague WS'rs that new perspectives are very welcome here.

Crazy as it is .... thank you.

Just an amazing and fascinating subject and at the same time disturbing. With all the resources available to LE, Homeland Security, DNA, Investigation Technology, Satelitte Image, etc. ... you would think it would be nearly impossible to have a single unsolved murder occur ... much less a serial chain of murders going on from so many possible sources; random, cults, gangs, etc. .... and go undetected for sooooo long. under the ruse of "accidential".

It is truly frightning of what is discussed in this thread ... in that you really cannot trust anyone ... especially potential friends you would like to get to know but do not really know. There are cult murderers (in the name of religion) amongst us everywhere and appear to be blending into society in general.

The "blending into society scares me the most" in that from what I understand ... these people are not necessarily outcasts and loners ... but could be Politicians, LE, Teachers, Medical Doctors, Coroners, and everyday people.

They all could cover for each other ... and the innocent and unsuspected would never actually know.

Am I missing something?

Peace.

[Blink34]

Crazy as it is .... thank you.

Just an amazing and fascinating subject and at the same time disturbing. With all the resources available to LE, Homeland Security, DNA, Investigation Technology, Satelitte Image, etc. ... you would think it would be nearly impossible to have a single unsolved murder occur ... much less a serial chain of murders going on from so many possible sources; random, cults, gangs, etc. .... and go undetected for sooooo long. under the ruse of "accidential".

It is truly frightning of what is discussed in this thread ... in that you really cannot trust anyone ... especially potential friends you would like to get to know but do not really know. There are cult murderers (in the name of religion) amongst us everywhere and appear to be blending into society in general.

The "blending into society scares me the most" in that from what I understand ... these people are not necessarily outcasts and loners ... but could be Politicians, LE, Teachers, Medical Doctors, Coroners, and everyday people.

They all could cover for each other ... and the innocent and unsuspected would never actually know.

Am I missing something?

Peace.

I would say that you missed nothing, except for what all of us are wondering- to what end do they exist?? They are all different, like splinters of a base but then they "evolve"? I know a woman he is a journalist and for a thesis she claims to have "joined" a group I will not name here, and she told me I would be floored at both the members and their "walks in life" She had every intention of doing this undercover work for her profession, and literally walked away she was so scared.

[MeoW333]

IMO i think a cult is doing this.
I think they are very sophisticated and include older members who are of good respectable professions. They may recruit younger members to help with and or do the killings.
It has been said that in some cases there has not been enough water found in the lungs yet the victims are classified as a drowning.

Is there any type of drug that would make someone comatose and immobile yet still aware of their surroundings, and unable to speak or fight back?

I know that painkiller patches such as Fentayl can knock a person into a coma or death very quickly if ingested. It is why there is such a controversy about them being on the market, as kids eat the gel inside for fun then end up dead. Perhaps someone who is in the medical professional would know an amount that would knock someone out yet not kill them; or rather would know the doses to use? The victims have no needle marks. I'm wondering if the gel from the Fentayl patches would dissolve into alcohol? The killers may give them a certain amount to make them submissive enough to go along with whatever it is that is planned, then later give them more which would lead to a coma or death. If they are then placed in the water, that would explain the victims not having enough water in their lungs for cause of death to be drowning. (their oxygen was already depleted by a chemical or medication)

[Blink34]

IMO i think a cult is doing this.
I think they are very sophisticated and include older members who are of good respectable professions. They may recruit younger members to help with and or do the killings.
It has been said that in some cases there has not been enough water found in the lungs yet the victims are classified as a drowning.

Is there any type of drug that would make someone comatose and immobile yet still aware of their surroundings, and unable to speak or fight back?

I know that painkiller patches such as Fentayl can knock a person into a coma or death very quickly if ingested. It is why there is such a controversy about them being on the market, as kids eat the gel inside for fun then end up dead. Perhaps someone who is in the medical professional would know an amount that would knock someone out yet not kill them; or rather would know the doses to use? The victims have no needle marks. I'm wondering if the gel from the Fentayl patches would dissolve into alcohol? The killers may give them a certain amount to make them submissive enough to go along with whatever it is that is planned, then later give them more which would lead to a coma or death. If they are then placed in the water, that would explain the victims not having enough water in their lungs for cause of death to be drowning. (their oxygen was already depleted by a chemical or medication)

Interesting thoughts, do you have any idea of what type of cult and for what reason they might be doing this?

[MeoW333]

Interesting thoughts, do you have any idea of what type of cult and for what reason they might be doing this?

Honestly Blink, i don't know, although my guess would be it has "sexual overtones" of some sort. It would be a "power trip" type deal for the killer. Most all the victims has many things in common, which seems that the killers seek out a specific type of male victim. So we have to guess is it that the killers are mad against the normalcy of the male victims; or is it what attracts them in a sexual way?

[kline]

The brothers were John and Michael Carr.
John was murdered in Fargo North Dakota. Michael died alone in a car crash in NYC. both within a year of Berkowitz arrest.
John matched one of the shooter composites in one of the Son Of Sam attacks to a tee.
Nether the composite or John Carr looked anything like Berkowitz.

[DeltaDawn]

The brothers were John and Michael Carr.
John was murdered in Fargo North Dakota. Michael died alone in a car crash in NYC. both within a year of Berkowitz arrest.
John matched one of the shooter composites in one of the Son Of Sam attacks to a tee.
Nether the composite or John Carr looked anything like Berkowitz.

Thank you Kline that was the info I was trying to recall..I have lost all my notes on this case..so I am going to try to reassemble them.

John was murdered in a farmhouse in Fargo, where he was staying with his girlfriend. I beleive her body was never found, nor was she considered dead? Also wasn't he shot, but the house was set on fire?

Michael was killed in a single car accident..did they ever figure out why the car wrecked with just him in it and no other cars involved?

ty..DD