Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #3

[SeriouslySearching]

And keeping in mind that LE and media reads here. Shadow probably remembers the case of the guy who went on another board, and gloated about inside info he knew. Well it was all fine and dandy until LE and media tracked this guy down to find out what he knew. Which turned out to be nothing.LOL That wasn't very long ago either.

[SuziQ]

LOL That wasn't very long ago either.

Ah you remember that too?!!. lol, I wish I had the vid from the newstation when he came to the door.

[fran]

I’ve been cruising and googling for the past few days about ‘missing college students,’ ‘college student drinking and binge drinking,’ etc…..Drinking among college students and deaths and accidents involving ‘drunk students’ is a HUGE problem and has been studied quite extensively. There are reports and studies used to counsel students and programs by many colleges. The most likely time for binge drinking is the first three weeks of school, the HOLIDAYS of Xmas and New Years, and Spring Break. (21st birthday celebration appear critical as well.) But these that we’ve been studying are spread throughout the school year.

The below study is dated 2002, but none the less, it’s very sobering in realizing what goes on at our college campuses.

http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/NIAAACollegeMaterials/TaskForce/Intro_03.aspx
A Snapshot of Annual High-Risk College Drinking Consequences


I only studied a handful of OTHER states not involved in the most recent disappearances, and I don’t understand why there aren’t a number of unsolved missing and drowning in the OTHER states. Usually in the OTHER states, when there’s a death due to excessive alcohol, it’s solved. The student is in an accident or found dead in their bed, or IF missing, found. OR, IF there’s a student in another state ’missing,’ it’s perhaps ONE in that state over a five year period, or as in one state recently, there’s one unsolved from 30 years ago and it was a female.(not involving alcohol, fwiw)

THESE cases presently being studied, many of the students and young people did NOT drink or their blood alcohol was too low to have been ‘alcohol poisoning.’ PLUS, in other states, there are ‘female victims’ as well AND they’re solved. OR IF it’s a female, it could be ‘murder’ etc., AND it’s solved. OR, if they did appear to have a very high blood alcohol level (present cases study), they were TOO DRUNK to have made it to the water (IF FOUND).

The few car accidents and disappeared driver, the few run into a body of water and body found in car, or outside of car, COULD be legitimate accidents or……….maybe not. IF a car is found wrecked out in the country or rural road, the driver is NOT there, a search ensues and the driver is NEVER located, then……where are they? What happened to them? Curious. FWIW, we have at least one of those for ‘females’ in New England. (car found, student NOT)

The majority of these victims DO fit into the ‘risk age,’ 18-24, and then some a little older or younger, look as if they COULD be that age group. So, is someone targeting them? I have NO idea. SOME could be legitimate accidents, but even breaking it down into 2/3’s being accidents, it leaves a HUGE # of ’mysterious’ deaths and missing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I was almost beginning to think maybe these were just a string of accidents. However, what these detectives have uncovered is interesting and IMHO, SHOULD be investigated. We’re not talking about just one student here, we’re talking about a NUMBER of students. IF a link can be found with even two, or say two in each state, it’s worth the time and money that would be used, imo. After all, it could be OUR children they save from being the next victim of this phenomena…………or predator(s).

JMHO
fran

[SuziQ]

Thanks fran! That's very interesting.

[SeriouslySearching]

OK...so if the ME in the Booth case feels the GHB was out of the system in his autopsy which took place two weeks after he went missing...I would like to know how long that ME believes that GHB could stay IN the system after death. Anyone want to call and ask?

Glad you are coming around to my way of thinking, Fran. :) Good post!!

[SuziQ]

I know there are ME and or Patholigists that have posted here, particularly the Rose Cole thread. You should PM them. lol.

[SeriouslySearching]

I was thinking since Dark and Vermont broke the possible connection in that case...they might have an "in" there and could ask. Since it is nothing I have heard an ME say before...I would like his opinion on it.

[SuziQ]

I was thinking since Dark and Vermont broke the possible connection in that case...they might have an "in" there and could ask. Since it is nothing I have heard an ME say before...I would like his opinion on it.


Good idea. I've heard over the years that GHB related crimes are hard to prosecute because of the lack of tox evidence. I couldn't tell you though why I know that. I think it was from following that creepy date rape drug rapist case from Santa Barbara. Was his name Chambers? I know there was alot of info regarding GHB submitted at his trial.

ETA: it's not Chambers. The guy I'm thinking of was related to the Max Factor family. BRB.

Found him: Andrew Luster, here's the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Luster

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, Suzi. Trust me, I don't need a refresher on that creep. I know his case very well.

The question here tho is what happens in a dead body that would allow the drug to dissipate or otherwise leave no indication if it was administered before death? Makes no sense it would be gone before autopsy to me.

[dark_shadows]

Geraldo Rivera is going to be in Middlebury, Vermont tommorow to do a story on Nick Garza.
Respectfully,
dark_shadows

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for the update, Dark!! I look forward to seeing it.

[SuziQ]

Thanks, Suzi. Trust me, I don't need a refresher on that creep. I know his case very well.

The question here tho is what happens in a dead body that would allow the drug to dissipate or otherwise leave no indication if it was administered before death? Makes no sense it would be gone before autopsy to me.

I guess it would depend on how much time went by before death. I've been searching and searching and it appears that there is no conclusive way to determine much about GHB after the fact. Like you suggested, we need a pro to weigh in, and that's not me. But! I do remember reading that GHB is not a standard tox screen tested at autopsy.

[SuziQ]

Also, I have read in date rape cases, vics have gone straight to the ER and rarely do they test positive for GHB. That's how fast it leaves a body. I guess the question is, how long is the half life?

[Peculiar Petunia]

http://books.google.com/books?id=BfdighlyGiwC&pg=PA1098&lpg=PA1098&dq=ghb+metabolic+pathway&source=web&ots=Kr90tHp625&sig=CM6YLOxrqV2-Ck7mfB8cNsDn0us&hl=en

I don't know how to do a neat little "mini-link" here, but can make the toxicology a little more understandable. Basically, the pathways a person uses to break down GHB are also found in many bacteria. So, gut bacteria (or water bacteria, for that matter) can keep breaking down GHB even if there's something present after death. And a person metabolizes the compund really fast!

[Peculiar Petunia]

Also, I have read in date rape cases, vics have gone straight to the ER and rarely do they test positive for GHB. That's how fast it leaves a body. I guess the question is, how long is the half life?
Less than 30 minutes, according to the above book.

[SuziQ]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/418321_3

Elimination
Less than 2% of GHB is eliminated unchanged in the urine.[162, 164] Owing to the short half-life, there is no accumulation of GHB with repeated dosing and GHB doses of up to 100 mg/kg are no longer detectable in the blood from 2-8 hours or in the urine after 8-12 hours.[162, 165] The variability of these findings may depend on the sensitivity of the assay used, or it may be due to interindividual variability. In summary, it has been suggested that regardless of the dose given, the elimination of GHB is so rapid, even in those with compromised liver function, that the drug is completely eliminated within 4-6 hours after ingestion.[162]

[SuziQ]

Less than 30 minutes, according to the above book.

JC! That's faster than what I found!

[Peculiar Petunia]

Well, it's a half-life, and it seems like the breakdown is not a linear function. So I could see there being a remainder up to 4 hours afterward.

[SuziQ]

Well, it's a half-life, and it seems like the breakdown is not a linear function. So I could see there being a remainder up to 4 hours afterward.

So exactly what would be left after how long? It seems that because GHB is normally in the body, that it's hard for a pathologist to determine what is a normal level. Let's say TOD is at one hour after ingestion, and we are lucky that an ME tests for GHB, can he even tell if it's enough to relate to foul play or not?

[ArizonaGiGi]

Anybody know if ghb would show up in the hair like some other drugs do?

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for the info, Suzi and Petunia. :)

Good question, Arizona! I wonder if it can even be detected at all in the hair? I would have to assume as quickly as it leaves the body, the chemical wouldn't affect changes in the hair follicles...but I could be very wrong. Would be another interesting question to ask an ME.

[Indigator]

Bodies in water are the most difficult to determine time of death, cause of death etc. Ina sense, a wet body is a perfect way to disguise what happened before death. I wonder if any bodies had unusual fibers on them, hair etc. That would be very important but again, all of that might also be lost in water.

[Indigator]

Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?

[SeriouslySearching]

Indigator, the most unusual hair was found in Chris Jenkins' hand...it was his own where he had pulled it out. There was also a mention of perhaps something else of significant evidence found there, too.

I think the water would also wash away an hair or fiber evidence unless, like the hair, was clutched or otherwise entwined with the clothing/body.

[SeriouslySearching]

Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?I feel the motive had an urgency associated with it at the time the acts were committed, but not in the time between deaths. I think there was a "need" as perceived by the people involved and having some type of reward for the killings.

I fall into the camp of multiple people because of the various locations and the timing of certain deaths. I am beginning to believe the groups are both male and female with all of them involved on some level.

As I believe these people are above average intelligence, I think an internet connection is quite probable.

The only motives I could come up with have to do with drugs, sexual orientation (them not the vics), religion, hazing rituals, or the alcohol/male/age mixture and a definite hatred of all three.

You know, I made a flip comment about MADD...but could they have a splinter group within that organization as a payback for the deaths of their own children? Could the victims represent the man/men responsible for those deaths?

[SuziQ]

Bodies in water are the most difficult to determine time of death, cause of death etc. Ina sense, a wet body is a perfect way to disguise what happened before death. I wonder if any bodies had unusual fibers on them, hair etc. That would be very important but again, all of that might also be lost in water.

On that note we can remember the quote from Duarte, IIRC and paraphraising, leaving the vics in the water is the perfect crime.

[SuziQ]

You know, I made a flip comment about MADD...but could they have a splinter group within that organization as a payback for the deaths of their own children? Could the victims represent the man/men responsible for those deaths?

You did make a flip comment, but it made me think about the possibility. IMO, you should put that in the theory thread just in case. I mean it makes as much if not more sense than my crazy monk theory, which BTW, cracks me up everytime I look at it. They creep me out though! A bunch of sick bastids they are!

[fran]

Motive? Single individual, multiple people, gangs? An e-mail/internet connection? If random then back to motive. Male or female? MOTIVE?

One potential victim was last seen at a bar talking to a bearded older man.

Another potential victim, sorry don't know if he's on their list, was seen talking to a 'masculine type' woman in a convenience store.

hmmmmmm.........would that make for two or more groups? The different drowned or missing? Missing from pubs or walking? found in rivers not at all? duplicate dates of disappearances?

So many questions and not enough answers!

JMHO
fran

[fran]

On that note we can remember the quote from Duarte, IIRC and paraphraising, leaving the vics in the water is the perfect crime.

I heard it once said that the PERFECT CRIME IS WHEN A CRIME ISN'T DETECTED.

It was in other words,.... but it mainly said, "a perfect crime is when no one knows there's been a crime."

Which, btw, fits in very well with this scenario of these..... 'accidents.'

JMHO
fran

[SuziQ]

I heard it once said that the PERFECT CRIME IS WHEN A CRIME ISN'T DETECTED.

It was in other words,.... but it mainly said, "a perfect crime is when no one knows there's been a crime."

Which, btw, fits in very well with this scenario of these..... 'accidents.'

JMHO
fran

Exactly.

[ArizonaGiGi]

I got this off of a website called doctordeluca.com ;


"11
UI - 13
AU - Kalasinsky KS
AU - Dixon MM
AU - Schmunk GA
AU - Kish SJ
AD - Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Rockville, MD 20850, USA. kalasink@afip.osd.mil
TI - Blood, brain, and hair GHB concentrations following fatal ingestion
AB - Despite the increasing incidence of illicit use of gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB), little information is available documenting levels of the drug in GHB fatalities. We measured GHB levels in postmortem blood, brain and hair specimens from a suspected overdose case by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) following solid phase extraction (SPE) and derivatization with bis(trimethyl-silyl) trifluoroacetamide (BSTFA). Examination found 330 microg/mL GHB in femoral blood and 221 ng/mg GHB in frontal cortex brain tissue, values higher than those typically reported in the literature. The hair shaft was negative for GHB whereas the plucked root bulbs with outer root sheath attached (2,221 ng/mg) and root bulbs after washing and removal of the outer root sheath (47 ng/mg) contained the drug.Our results are consistent with an acute single dose of GHB and, as the toxicology screen was negative for other drugs of abuse, emphasize the significant danger of this drug
UR - PM:11373018
SO - J Forensic Sci 2001 May ;46(3):728-730"

*********
The above test was done on a GHB fatal overdose subject so perhaps that's why the GHB showed up in the first place (that non-fatal doses do not show up).

-Makes me think that the victims might have died from an overdose of GHB and that is why there is so little water in their lungs.
-Wonder if ME tested victims hair ROOT for GHB?

[SeriouslySearching]

Great information, Arizona! (I copied it over to the Drug thread, too. I hope you don't mind.) It would be worth asking if the root bulb was checked in the autopsies.

Could there be a connection in numbers...phone numbers, social security numbers, banking numbers, ip addresses, birthdates, student ID numbers, or drivers license numbers?

[shorty0927]

Ok, so I started wondering if the killer(s) are really smart enough to know that disposing of bodies in water would wash away evidence...did they get the idea from a book, movie, or tv show perhaps? Or did they just get lucky?

[CSI can be ruled out--it started airing in 2000]

I came across this wikipedia entry about disposing of bodies in water...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_disposal_of_bodies_in_the_water

"Many criminals dispose of bodies in a river, hoping that the body is carried away. However, this method will most likely lead to a quick detection of the body, because the body gets entangled at the side of the river, or stopped at a dam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dam), or is simply seen floating by others...
{snip}
Very cold water with little oxygen may even preserve bodies, allowing for an easier identification..."

If they were smart enough to know that water would wash away evidence, did they also know that cold water would preserve the victim (to some degree)? Or that the chances were good that the body would get hung up along the way if put in a river vs. a lake?

Are these happening in winter months in an attempt to preserve the body? If the victim is put in a lake, are they hoping that ice will keep the victim hidden for awhile (until spring), but well preserved? If the victim is put in a river, are they hoping that the victim is found SOONER, but still preserved?

Maybe if there's a pattern to their "pickups", it doesn't really matter which body of water the victim is put in--they just need water nearby.

Just things that have been rattling around in my brain today...

[eve]

I know there are ME and or Patholigists that have posted here, particularly the Rose Cole thread. You should PM them. lol.

I love Janis Amatuzzio - forensic pathologist /Coroner here in MN. She has written some great books and I have seen her on Court TV (I think it was Court TV). I wish she would get interested in this case. Maybe I will try to email her. I know she has a website. Anyone else know of her?

Eve

[Blink34]

In the case of Dane Williams, from the possible vics Cali thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64407

If you review the slideshow by choosing the View images link in images 3 and 9 you can SEE GRAFFITTI, the only panel of it in the entire alley, on the fence where his body is found- Can't see what it is, but I'd be willing to make a guess??
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/15156526/detail.html

[Peculiar Petunia]

To me it looked like that common "puffy letter" graffiti plus an angular line and another letter above--maybe "Vi"?

[Blink34]

To me it looked like that common "puffy letter" graffiti plus an angular line and another letter above--maybe "Vi"?

I can't even make that out- did you save it and view elsewhere?

[Blink34]

http://video.nbcsandiego.com/player/?id=212013

[kemo]

I've been following this case with interest and a little skeptitism. A "gang" doing this seens like something out of fiction, as I can think of nothing remotely similar ever happening. One individual doing "some" of these seems possible. I don't have any way to assess the credibility of the retired cops who discovered the smiley faces but I would expect some sort of "peer review" from Law Enforcement or the media. This seems potentially bigger than any missing white girl yet Cable News hasn't really picked it up yet. Perhaps, as we prattle on, an army of reporters are visiting sites, photographing "smiley faces" and other graffiti and other wise putting the story together. Perhaps the FBI has got them to agree to "put it on hold" while they make their move. ON THE OTHER HAND, perhaps this is all a big hoax and and all of the real insiders know it.

Does anyone out there know whats really going on?

For what its worth, I went over a list of 42 potential victims and two definitely left bars very drunk; wandered around disoriented and probably lost; and then found their way into the water on their own. 4 or 5 others were seen alone, apparently drunk, appearing lost or disoriented very late at night and subsequentally found their way into the water. I am beginning to suspect that these could all be improbable accidents. We all associate alcohol poisoniong with rash behavior, loss of coordination and loss of consciousness but could a very high BAC lead some to disoriented "wandering" behavior? (something like what happens to folks with dementia)

[MissHolmes]

:silenced:

[PMLsmom]

I am new at posting here (but a loooong time lurker), so please be kind :)

Just a really wild thought I had...Some ultra sub-culture, kind of like Dungeons and Dragons, connected to lyrics of a particular band/song???

I went to Wikipedia.com, typed in Smiley, and came to this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley_%28disambiguation%29

I clicked on a couple of the links concerning song lyrics and got this website http://www.lyricsdownload.com/

I then typed in "Smiley song lyrics" in their search engine. I was amazed at the number of songs that have "smiley face" in the lyrics.

I would post a couple of the songs' lyrics, but don't know if I am allowed to. Some of the songs are pretty weird, and some are pretty violent.

[Denisenevergivesup]

Just wanted to let you guys know that the bar that Tommy Booth went missing from, only has a camera on that front glass door. There is also a front door that is off camera, as well as a back door that leads to a small parking strip...then the creek. This bar is located in a strip mall so if he went out the other front door (not on camera), as the bar claims he must have, why would he walk all the way around the strip mall to get to the creek??

Maybe he went out the back door by MISTAKE? Not likely. Even the detective thought that his BAC wasn't high enough to be totally wasted like that. He came in through double glass doors, but mistook a dark single door in a dark corner with a push-bar handle as the front door?? I highly doubt that. So now the question is "WHY did he go out the back door?" Did someone prompt him to go that way?

I have faith that these deaths will be linked and eventually the "why" will be answered. Thanks to Det. Willoughby, the M.E. is taking another look at the autopsy results so maybe he'll find something he missed because he wasn't looking for anything suspicious the first time around. And you're right....we, the families, have never believed it was "accidental."

[Blink34]

Denise, thank you for your post and welcome to WS, albeit under such tragic circumstances. We are here to help get answers and support!:blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

Does anyone out there know whats really going on?

For what its worth, I went over a list of 42 potential victims and two definitely left bars very drunk; wandered around disoriented and probably lost; and then found their way into the water on their own. 4 or 5 others were seen alone, apparently drunk, appearing lost or disoriented very late at night and subsequentally found their way into the water. I am beginning to suspect that these could all be improbable accidents. We all associate alcohol poisoniong with rash behavior, loss of coordination and loss of consciousness but could a very high BAC lead some to disoriented "wandering" behavior? (something like what happens to folks with dementia)

Your statement of 6-7 cases, IMO, isn't ALL of the cases. Certainly some cases can probably be attributed to accidents or suicide. And keep in mind that these possible cases don't jive with national drowning statistics. Most young men die of drowning during warmer months, in the presence of others and while engaged in a water sport. These possible cases happened during very cold and freezing weather, with no one around. Their are also no signs of injuries usually found in a drowning accident attributed to a fall.

Another thing to consider about high BAC is, how does one, who is falling down drunk, navigate themselves, blocks or a mile, across traffic, and in one case an 8 lane highway? Then navigate down to the banks of a river that is designed to prevent accidents of this exact type? In many cases there is a sidewalk or promenade then at least a dozen feet of large rip rap, etc. etc. Ever walk on rip rap? Nearly impossible while sober. I would say impossible when it's dark and someone has a high BAC.

[SuziQ]

Denise, thank you for your post. I am so sorry that this has happened to you. And welcome to WS. You don't have to answer, are you related to Tommy?

[ArizonaGiGi]

Just found this article about gang symbols. Some Latino and black? gang members are now shaving vertical lines/slashes in the middle of their eyebrows to signify that they are members. Looks similar to the slash eyes of some of the smiley face graffiti. If it is street type gangs targeting the white college boys, race could be enough motive for latino or black gangs.

http://www.newhouse.com/shaved-lines-in-eyebrows-raise-gang-concerns-in-schools.html

[SuziQ]

This is the typical drowning scenario for young men. This just happened today. Very sad.

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/16213736/detail.html

Two teenage boys drowned Friday during a 'senior skip day' outing with classmates at Lake Allatoona.

The victims, 18- and 15-years-old, both attended North Cobb High School.

Officials told WSB-TV Channel 2 reporter Tiffani Reynolds the teens were at the Red Top Mountain area of the lake with a group of about a dozen other students.

[RR0004]

Welcome, Denise...

[SuziQ]

The latest report on Tommy Booth. I don't think the smiley faces should be used to determine whether a case is related or not. They've only been spotted near the water entry point in 22 cases out of 40+. I think the facts in Tommy's case speaks louder than the smiley.

http://www.nbc10.com/news/16217089/detail.html

(snip)
Ridley Township police said they believe this could be the lead they were looking for, but the owner of Bootlegger's Bar said that ominous smiley face has been there for two years. But it's not stopping the investigation from going forward.

[SuziQ]

I love Janis Amatuzzio - forensic pathologist /Coroner here in MN. She has written some great books and I have seen her on Court TV (I think it was Court TV). I wish she would get interested in this case. Maybe I will try to email her. I know she has a website. Anyone else know of her?

Eve

Her name isn't ringing a bell. That would be great if you contacted her.

[SuziQ]

I apologize if this was already posted. There's a good video at the below link.

http://www.nbc5.com/news/16205707/detail.html

(snip)
After a 77-day search, Welzien's body washed up on a Gary, Ind., beach. Police said Welzien must have simply fallen into the lake and drowned, but Stephany Welzien never believed it.

"He would have had to find a way to cross Lake Shore Drive from the Gold Coast where he was staying. He couldn't have just walked out, crossed eight lanes of traffic and fallen into the water. There's barriers," she said.

She's not alone.

Dr. Lee Gilbertson, of Minnesota's St. Cloud State University, said he has discovered a series of almost identical, seemingly accidental drownings of college-aged men in 11 states throughout the Midwest; at least 40 in all.

[SuziQ]

Bill Kruziki speaks. Video and article at the below link. There are also several articles from the time Matt went missing.

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/18780009.html

Related Content


National TV Report Raises Questions About East Dubuque Drowning (http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/18340619.html)
KCRG-TV9 Coverage of the Kruziki Case: Autopsy says Matt Kruziki was Intoxicated (http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/2788861.html)
KCRG-TV9 Coverage of the Kruziki Case: Matt's Body Found (http://www.kcrg.com/home/related/18345094.html)
KCRG-TV9 Coverage of the Kruziki Case: Looking for Matt (http://www.kcrg.com/home/related/18344999.html)
KCRG-TV9 Coverage of the Kruziki Case: A Father Waits (http://www.kcrg.com/home/related/18344419.html)
Also, the above linked article states:

East Dubuque police led the investigation of Matt Kruziki's death. Police ruled his death as a drowning. Chief Steve O'Connell says the New York investigators have not contacted him for information about the Kruziki case. But O'Connell says the investigator's information seems inaccurate.

O’Connell said, "On December 24th, 2005 the Mississippi River was frozen from shore bank to shore bank so it would be impossible to slide a body into the water."

I agree with the below comments:

12:30 AM Justin wrote ...

So they say it'd be impossible to slip a body into the water since it was frozen shore-to-shore... but then how did he drown? If it's possible to fall through ice, it should certainly be possible to also drop somebody into a hole in the ice.
Flag for moderation (http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/18780009.html?f=y&orderpar=reverse&com=1)
7:55 AM anon wrote ...

Excellent point Justin. I was thinking the same thing..
Flag for moderation (http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/18780009.html?f=y&orderpar=reverse&com=2)
7:56 AM Anonymous wrote ...

Yeah, holy hell...I agree with Justin.

[shorty0927]

O’Connell said, "On December 24th, 2005 the Mississippi River was frozen from shore bank to shore bank so it would be impossible to slide a body into the water."


They could have takenhim upriver to Lock & Dam No. 11 North of Dubuque, IA...the downriver side of the locks are rarely frozen from one bank to the other. Of course, that would totally blow holes in the Sinsinawa Avenue theory.

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&q=42.540278,-90.644167&ie=UTF8&ll=42.52285,-90.6427&spn=0.064017,0.170975&z=13

[fran]

First I'd like to welcome Denisenevergivesup! I've seen your postings on another forum and am aware of who you are. My deepest condolences on your loss. I can't even imagine how you feel. I hope you will soon get answers. It appears there MAY be some people listening to these detectives and the right fork in the road is looking more traveled......fran


Having said that, I must say, I have searched high and low for any other state, college areas, or whatever, over what we have been studying the past days, and I can NOT find anywhere that even comes close. Close in 'unexplained drownings,' unexplained disappearances, guys being lost while on the way home from a bar, mysterious one car accidents and the driver never to be heard from again, lone drunk or drinking young men being found drowned, social gatherings of college aged young men AND women and ONE mysteriously disappears and ends up dead, drowned, missing without a trace.

Of course there will be an occasional occurrence, which means per state, one in five years. But the frequency and concentration of these happenings leads me to believe that there's NO other explanation except the deaths and drownings and disappearances are at the hand of 'others.' I do NOT know if they're organized with ONE central figure pulling the strings, but then I'm not privy to the information the detectives possess.

No, there's definitely something else at work here. Even if 2/3's of the cases in the midwest, east coast, and southern states are 'accidental,' the REST can't possibly be. NO WAY! imho.

There is NO conincidence when it comes to murder.

Oh, I can't find it again but there have been literally hundreds of young people od'ing on GHB during the past few years, not JUST having it slipped to them. I located the below site which is most informative about GHB.

What I'd like to know is how LE can say they've absolutely ruled out these students and young people were drugged, when there are so many drugs and combinations that it would be impossible to check for with certainty.

Now granted this below response is written about a 'test kit,' but if it's impossible to have an effective 'test kit' (which is to detect the presence of GHB from a potential victim), how would LE be able to detect it post mortum with 100% certainty? IMO, the couldn't without knowing what they're looking for.

JMHO
fran


http://www.projectghb.org/ghb_testing_problem.htm

The GHB Testing Dilemma

REPLY FROM TRINKA PORRATA RE GHB TEST PRODUCTS

It is my heartfelt and expert opinion that there is no test kit for GHB that is adequate to endorse and in fact the products currently on the market give a false sense of security that I personally cannot support. The problem is that there are more than 36 drugs used to facilitate sexual assault. Having a test kit that addresses only one or two of them is meaningless. This is particularly true since these test products do NOT even adequately address GHB. There is no field test kit for GHB for law enforcement that addresses the analogs of GHB and yet the analogs are about two-thirds of what we see.

Generally speaking, when I say "GHB" I mean all forms of GHB and that includes the analogs. There is no point in distinguishing between them in terms of dosing. This testing problem makes tackling GHB very difficult for law enforcement. Your website doesn't seem to mention GHB analogs and doesn't tell potential customers that it doesn't react to the analogs. The drink test coasters on the market are supposed to react to GHB and ketamine, but again, do NOT identify the analogs. The coasters don't work with milk-based drinks, with dark liquids, etc., and don't work for GHB analogs or the other 34+ drugs typically used. Ketamine isn't often used in rapes and when it is involved, may more likely have been taken voluntarily by a victim who is then abused while in a disoriented state. The two primary analogs of GHB (GBL and BD) convert to GHB in the human body. No matter which of the three you are given, you will urinate GHB. So, how does it help for someone to test their drink (and thus believe it is free of GHB) and get raped anyway because the substance in the drink was GBL or BD??? Or it contained one of the dozens of other drugs used??????? I see no benefit whatsoever!!! No matter how well-intentioned the creators were, the concept doesn't work well enough to use!!! I have therefore personally avoided any impression of endorsing these products. In fact, some of the pushers of these three products have been far less than professional (one even quite profane) in their efforts to DEMAND endorsement.

It is far better to simply educate re being careful:

protecting one's drink

don't take drinks from strangers

don't leave drinks unattended

if in doubt--throw it out

beware even of bartenders who have on occasion been the culprit dosing drinks with GHB, etc.

Give out coasters that say to beware and watch their drinks.

Put the darned coaster on top of the glass so the culprit would at least have to move it to dose it!!!!!

I simply don't see the benefit of the test products that do so little and leave a false impression that the drink is now "safe." It isn't.

[SuziQ]

They could have takenhim upriver to Lock & Dam No. 11 North of Dubuque, IA...the downriver side of the locks are rarely frozen from one bank to the other. Of course, that would totally blow holes in the Sinsinawa Avenue theory.

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&q=42.540278,-90.644167&ie=UTF8&ll=42.52285,-90.6427&spn=0.064017,0.170975&z=13

Thank you. How far away is Lock & Dam No. 11 from Massey Marina?

http://www.kcrg.com/home/related/18345094.html

A Wisconsin couple is trying to cop. A body found in the Mississippi River is that of their missing son.

Police now confirm Matthew Kruziki's body turned up in the Massey Marina Saturday night.

[shorty0927]

Thank you. How far away is Lock & Dam No. 11 from Massey Marina?

http://www.kcrg.com/home/related/18345094.html

A Wisconsin couple is trying to cop. A body found in the Mississippi River is that of their missing son.

Police now confirm Matthew Kruziki's body turned up in the Massey Marina Saturday night.

Hmmm. Probably not, then. It's much farther downriver from East Dubuque. (The marina is at 'A')

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=l&hl=en&geocode=&q=massey+marina&near=42.540278,-90.644167&ie=UTF8&ll=42.490454,-90.618324&spn=0.128101,0.341949&t=h&z=12

[Blink34]

It is far better to simply educate re being careful:

protecting one's drink

don't take drinks from strangers

don't leave drinks unattended

if in doubt--throw it out

beware even of bartenders who have on occasion been the culprit dosing drinks with GHB, etc.

Give out coasters that say to beware and watch their drinks.

Put the darned coaster on top of the glass so the culprit would at least have to move it to dose it!!!!!

I simply don't see the benefit of the test products that do so little and leave a false impression that the drink is now "safe." It isn't.[/quote]

You need to adopt the Buddy System in every area of your life, assume that anyone can spike your drink-because in that setting, they can.

Ref Case of Andrew Luster- multi-millionaire and heir to more- filmed several date rapes induced by drugs- point being, if someone like that is a perp, assume everyone is- you simply have to-

[SuziQ]

Fran, thanks for the GHB info! There certainly doesn't seem to be a way to test for this stuff. I thought the comment about bartenders was interesting.

[ArizonaGiGi]

It is far better to simply educate re being careful:

protecting one's drink

don't take drinks from strangers

don't leave drinks unattended

if in doubt--throw it out

beware even of bartenders who have on occasion been the culprit dosing drinks with GHB, etc.

Give out coasters that say to beware and watch their drinks.

Put the darned coaster on top of the glass so the culprit would at least have to move it to dose it!!!!!

I simply don't see the benefit of the test products that do so little and leave a false impression that the drink is now "safe." It isn't.

You need to adopt the Buddy System in every area of your life, assume that anyone can spike your drink-because in that setting, they can.

Ref Case of Andrew Luster- multi-millionaire and heir to more- filmed several date rapes induced by drugs- point being, if someone like that is a perp, assume everyone is- you simply have to-[/quote]
OOOPS somehow the above two sentences didn't get highlighted from the quote.

My college aged step daughter tells me that all the girls she knows drink bottled beer at bars, and keep their thumb on the top of the bottle to prevent someone from drugging it. Gone are the disco days of my youth where we even left our purses sitting at the table, much less our drinks.

That said I wonder what the victims were drinking ie; mixed drinks, glass of beer OR bottle of beer? It would be much much harder to drug a bottle of beer (but not impossible) than to drug a glass or pitcher of beer.

[Peculiar Petunia]

I can't even make that out- did you save it and view elsewhere?
I have a very large monitor with excellent resolution. Only problem I have is when there's a lot of light coming from behind it.

[Peculiar Petunia]

~snip~
My college aged step daughter tells me that all the girls she knows drink bottled beer at bars, and keep their thumb on the top of the bottle to prevent someone from drugging it. Gone are the disco days of my youth where we even left our purses sitting at the table, much less our drinks.

That said I wonder what the victims were drinking ie; mixed drinks, glass of beer OR bottle of beer? It would be much much harder to drug a bottle of beer (but not impossible) than to drug a glass or pitcher of beer.

Seems like when I was in college, we always drank from long-necks.
I've wondered if the oddball cocktails that are popular today might be part of the problem, since it's hard to tell if that's the way a drink is "supposed to taste." Beer always tastes consistent.

[Blink34]

You need to adopt the Buddy System in every area of your life, assume that anyone can spike your drink-because in that setting, they can.

Ref Case of Andrew Luster- multi-millionaire and heir to more- filmed several date rapes induced by drugs- point being, if someone like that is a perp, assume everyone is- you simply have to-
OOOPS somehow the above two sentences didn't get highlighted from the quote.

My college aged step daughter tells me that all the girls she knows drink bottled beer at bars, and keep their thumb on the top of the bottle to prevent someone from drugging it. Gone are the disco days of my youth where we even left our purses sitting at the table, much less our drinks.

That said I wonder what the victims were drinking ie; mixed drinks, glass of beer OR bottle of beer? It would be much much harder to drug a bottle of beer (but not impossible) than to drug a glass or pitcher of beer. [/quote]


You know, she's right and I almost said that, but the reality is, your not going to take your beer to the ladies room (I was raised to never even be at a bar un-escorted, not saying it's right, just my vantage point). And it is better than leaving an open beverage I agree. I still say you have to assume the potential is there, and act accordingly for safety?

[SeriouslySearching]

It isn't that difficult to spike bottled beer. I was told by a professional that it just takes a hand passing over the top with a visine bottle and a good squirt. It happens so quickly it isn't noticed even if you are sitting right there watching it. If it drips down the side...no one usually notices that either as there is usually condensation on the outside of a bottle or glass. The liquid is usually clear and undetectable.

I recommend you wait until you finish your drink before going to the bathroom then you don't have to worry about it. Watching the bartenders is another thing that has come up from time to time. (It came up in the Holloway case, IIRC.) Never accept a drink from a stranger who offers to get it for you. Either yourself or your friends should watch the bartender closely make your drinks or open them. You never know who is behind that bar. (Or who might tip them heavily to spike a drink!)

[DeltaDawn]

Just wanted to let you guys know that the bar that Tommy Booth went missing from, only has a camera on that front glass door. There is also a front door that is off camera, as well as a back door that leads to a small parking strip...then the creek. This bar is located in a strip mall so if he went out the other front door (not on camera), as the bar claims he must have, why would he walk all the way around the strip mall to get to the creek??

Maybe he went out the back door by MISTAKE? Not likely. Even the detective thought that his BAC wasn't high enough to be totally wasted like that. He came in through double glass doors, but mistook a dark single door in a dark corner with a push-bar handle as the front door?? I highly doubt that. So now the question is "WHY did he go out the back door?" Did someone prompt him to go that way?

I have faith that these deaths will be linked and eventually the "why" will be answered. Thanks to Det. Willoughby, the M.E. is taking another look at the autopsy results so maybe he'll find something he missed because he wasn't looking for anything suspicious the first time around. And you're right....we, the families, have never believed it was "accidental."

Denise,

Welcome to WS. Thank you for that info about the doors and video camera at the bar Tommy disappeared from. I have read your posts on another forum and my heart goes out to your and your family and Tommy's friends. Please pass our heartfelt condolences on to your family.

Has your family or the LE in your area had a chance to speak with or meet the NY retired detectives? The pics of the graffiti look to be very similar in Tommy's case to those in Nick Garza's case. Many of the same images.

I hope you will stay in join in discussions with us. We value your personal input.

Prayers to you and Tommy's family.

[SuziQ]

They could have takenhim upriver to Lock & Dam No. 11 North of Dubuque, IA...the downriver side of the locks are rarely frozen from one bank to the other. Of course, that would totally blow holes in the Sinsinawa Avenue theory.

http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&q=42.540278,-90.644167&ie=UTF8&ll=42.52285,-90.6427&spn=0.064017,0.170975&z=13

BTW, Sinsinawa Road runs along the Wisconsin/Illinois state line on the map. You can follow it right to the river.

[Denisenevergivesup]

Thank you all for welcoming me. As those who've read the other forum know, I am Tommy's cousin. His disappearance and subsequent death has stunned our family. You can read about these stories, but deep down you always believe that it happens to other people, not you.

There are a lot of things about Tommy's case that don't add up. As much as I want to investigate & basically harrass people until I get answers, I have to remind myself that Det. Willoughby is actively pursuing the same answers and he's an awesome cop. Det. Gannon is supposed to be coming down to Ridley in a couple weeks to check things out for himself. The M.E. actually hadn't officially ruled Tommy's cause of death. Det. Willoughby spoke very highly of this M.E. so I trust he will do everything he can to provide more answers.

Unlike other families, we've got the comfort of knowing our detective is fully engaged in this case. I can't say enough good things about him. I can imagine that without him, my frustration would be overwhelming. I feel so badly for the Garza family, who continually gets nowhere with their local authorities. On the other hand, I hope that the similarities between Tommy's & Nick's cases will help solve both.

I do know that Tommy was drinking Goldschlagger that night. The bartenders remember he bought drinks for his friends. They said he wasn't loud or rowdy. Nothing that might've raised flags, like an arguement or something. In other words, I don't believe he was falling down drunk or aggresively drunk. His BAC was like .22, which for his size, with his tolerance, would be about the same as 80% of the people in the bar. I actually expected it to be higher, since we were supposed to believe he "fell" into the creek -- and then drowned in 2 ft. of icy water.

We don't know for sure where he went into the creek. It's my personal opinion that it was directly behind the bar, but that's not based on any facts. Talk about a "perfect crime"... No wonder it took so long for someone to connect the dots. A river or creek has so many variables, it's impossible to retrace the path of a body. You won't find any clues in the water and by the time you figure out (if you get lucky enough to figure out) the entry point into the water, that scene is so compromised, it doesn't even matter. Any trace on the body is washed away, there's no actual crime scene, so what are you left with?? A whole lot of speculation.

I can believe that a single deranged killer may be super smart and never get caught. But if more than one person is involved, there will be mistakes, and thus clues. These deaths are related and there is definately more than one killer.

Keep up the good work. I think you guys are awesome and value your thoughts.

[vermontn03]

Denise,

Welcome to WS. Thank you for that info about the doors and video camera at the bar Tommy disappeared from. I have read your posts on another forum and my heart goes out to your and your family and Tommy's friends. Please pass our heartfelt condolences on to your family.

Has your family or the LE in your area had a chance to speak with or meet the NY retired detectives? The pics of the graffiti look to be very similar in Tommy's case to those in Nick Garza's case. Many of the same images.

I hope you will stay in join in discussions with us. We value your personal input.

Prayers to you and Tommy's family.

Dear DeltaDawn,
Thank you for bringing Nick's case to the attention of Denise.

[DeltaDawn]

Thank you so much for sharing that info with us Denise. I am so sorry for your families grief and what they must be going through. I hope that the NY detectives can shed some light on this for you, your family and Det Willougby.

I know the smiley faces are similar and some of the additional graffiti to Nick Garza's case. Are there any other similarities to the other drownings in these cases that you can share with us?

DD

[SeriouslySearching]

Welcome to WS, Denise! Sorry it has to be under these circumstances. Hopefully soon your family will have some answers into Tommy's death and can find something in knowing what really happened to ease your breaking hearts. I am sure it isn't easy to keep going back over it time and again. (I will try to be gentle with my questions and I hope you know I don't mean to be too blunt...I just have so many questions.) Hugs~

The information on the doors and the bar is really interesting to me. Also, the mention of goldschlagger. I know people might not be aware, but it actually has gold flakes in it. Was this something he drank before?
Did they interview everyone in the bar before and after Tommy went missing? Was there anyone they could not track down to interview?

Did Tommy have any fender-benders or contact with LE in the day or so before he went missing?

[SuziQ]

This is last nights report on KSTP. Short video included at link. They will now be looking for a date rape drug in Tommy's system.

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S438829.shtml?cat=10830

The area medical examiner’s office told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS that they’re willing to reopen the autopsy, depending on what Gannon finds.
Officials say they’re now specifically looking for signs of a date rape drug in Booth’s system.

[nursebeeme]

top of the Saturday to everyone! http://truthbeknown2000.tripod.com/Truthbeknown2000/id22.html I wanted to bump this link back up to the top on forms of torture that cults use (there are many that do not leave a mark like, spinning, near drowning, locking in boxes or coffins, blinding light, hanging upside down, forced ingestion of body fluids, list goes on.

Has anyone ever tossed around the idea that, if a gang does exist, they are filming the torture and deaths...like snuff film...as I recall the dicks saying that He was most likely killed before his body was put in the water due to the position, clothes, etc

[nursebeeme]

SuziQ, hey my friend! I think they should also look (during follow up autopsies in these cases) at very discrete signs of the kind of torture that I posted above in #321

[nursebeeme]

being lockes in a wooden box could leave small cuts, splinters, etc.

[nursebeeme]

locked...sorry....shadow person just possesed my keyboard

[SuziQ]

SuziQ, hey my friend! I think they should also look (during follow up autopsies in these cases) at very discrete signs of the kind of torture that I posted above in #321

Good afternoon Nurse! I agree. Thanks for reposting that link.

[dimples37398]

Not sure if this has been posted, I didn't see it when I looked around the links in this forum.

This is about all the drownings and all kinds of links and possible connections.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg1

[SeriouslySearching]

Not sure if this has been posted, I didn't see it when I looked around the links in this forum.

This is about all the drownings and all kinds of links and possible connections.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message542174/pg1LOL Well, I guess that explains where Ethann's theory came from. I thought by the way he posted, it was his idea alone. I had no idea so many people were working on such a theory.

There is no motive so to me it doesn't seem at all plausible...unless someone knows from first hand information about a person with that company working in concert with others and can prove it.

[dimples37398]

I found another site that some of the stuff posted there is hmmm...different. I can't tell if they are being sarcastic in the couple of posts that I read....Here is the site, it is different, so be forewarned.

Read the 2nd post on this page, I just so happened to read this post first.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread351428/pg12

[nursebeeme]

Hey SS. Happy Saturday to you and hi there dimples! I agree with SS about Ethan's theory. I also went to where he linked that his theory had been posted (link is in thread #2 somewhere), and found it to be a woman's lib bashing site. After that little induction I cannot swallow this theory without a grain of salt (A LARGE GRAIN). MOO. I will try to dig back and find where he stated his theory had been posted on a blog...but let me tell you.....the whole site was about poor men this, and women suck, and dang....keep going with that sucky thought process (sorry Ethan but I AM A WOMAN and I found that blog highly degrading, offensive, and way outside the normal logic...someone grab me a berka).

This has more to do, in my opinion, with a method of choosing certain vic types and the connectedness of killers...whatever that connection is. I do not seeing this being a group within a corporation, due to the alluding by the dicks on a serial killer gang with a hierarchy, but rather a sub group within a sub, sub, sub~group linked by the internet. And thanks SuziQ for hashing out those numbers.....the cases have went up syonymously with the growth of the internet.

I have no clue what this could be. But it 'aint' right and it is damn hinky. I also could never imagine a person with a barbie doll head garden in a clothset but BTK proved me wrong.

The TRANE thing....I don't see it. This is a group of predators attracted to one another by their love of what they are doing and the aberrancy of it... We see the numbers of similar cases go up and up over the years along with internet growth. We need to do a line graph of cases vs internet growth stats. When my hubby gets home (he is a colonel in the army...signal corps that this is his thing...graphing..) I will see what he can extrapolate from loose numbers. Perhaps it is not so much location as it is the spread of a bad seed that started to grow in La Crosse?

again.

IMHoo.

[RR0004]

Hi, Everyone! Interesting "Criminal Minds' on right now. Talking about a killer that hits males only...out with friends...drinking...what would lure these men away from their friends? When they would be most vulnerable?Their theory "a woman". Sound familiar? Interesting to say the least. And, obviously, a theory that's been entertained here.

[DeltaDawn]

The Trane theory is based on the commonality of a business being in these areas. Well, lets add every fast food restaurant you can think of, home improvement centers that are nationwide, and lets add in tax services like H&R Block. His theory was based on a business having access and locations in all these areas..well there are many nationwide business that are everywhere..small towns to big cities. That is where the theory falls apart..you might as well blame it on MacDonald's, Hardy's,Wendy's, and Burger King.

[Blink34]

The Trane theory is based on the commonality of a business being in these areas. Well, lets add every fast food restaurant you can think of, home improvement centers that are nationwide, and lets add in tax services like H&R Block. His theory was based on a business having access and locations in all these areas..well there are many nationwide business that are everywhere..small towns to big cities. That is where the theory falls apart..you might as well blame it on MacDonald's, Hardy's,Wendy's, and Burger King.

Anytime someone has, imo, a loose theory, is adamant about it, ignores the facts, and seeks every avenue to promote it, there is definately a personal vantage point in it, an agenda if you will. I personally feel the victims and families in these cases deserve a respectful, objective effort to help support them and progress this investigation.
The conspiracy theory without facts is exactly what hinders an investigation. Thanks to all that pointed that out.

[SeriouslySearching]

This brings me to a question....Do you feel we are "Conspiracy Theorists" as we have been called in several blogs?

[DeltaDawn]

Dear SS,
I don't even fathom why we are called that..there are several sites for that type of theory. I think this is more of an open discussion ..but we better have facts and links to back them up.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, DD. Makes me feel a bit better! As I mentioned on another thread here, I followed these drownings for a long time and always felt something was just wrong. It is common sense and actually the lack of evidence in the drownings which led me to believe that a connection was possible.

[Blink34]

This brings me to a question....Do you feel we are "Conspiracy Theorists" as we have been called in several blogs?

Honestly I don't even know what that means-
For me, as a novice, I react to evidence, the hinky factor and my gut. Pure and simple. I dont feel I latch on to public opinion, and I am open to other's perspectives. I think of our work as just that - a "work" in progress. You examine a hypothesis, establish it's merit, then rule it out or accept it.

Couldn't resist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory

I did not find my photo or logo there, so for today I'm safe :blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

This brings me to a question....Do you feel we are "Conspiracy Theorists" as we have been called in several blogs?

I don't think so, because we are still asking questions and researching facts that will either prove or disprove. The truth is all we are after.

People making that claim about us and this case should think about this. It's a scary thing when people quit asking questions, accept a rubber stamp explanation, quit thinking for themselves and are afraid to speak up against the majority, for fear of the backlash. THAT is how true conspiracies happen. By doing this they unkowingly allow a true conspiracy to take place and continue.

[SeriouslySearching]

Well said, Suzi! :)

[Denisenevergivesup]

As far as the Trane theory, it appealed to me not because of the actual company, but certain aspects of their job made sense. A work van, especially HVAC, is never out of place. These techs routinely have R-22 in their vans, which from what I've read, could easily render someone unconcious just by breathing it in. They travel the interstates, often upgrading systems in colleges. The techs they hire aren't exactly always pillars of society -- I've read that some are straight outta prison.

Whoever is doing this is obviously discreet. I don't think these guys are just jumped and kidnapped out in the open. It's planned and deliberate. A HVAC van just seems like a good theory to me, especially because of the R-22 accessibility. I still think there are one or more females involved, maybe just random prostitutes that are easily picked up (drugs are an easy carrot to dangle in exchange for luring these guys outside. and they aren't likely to talk..).

Maybe they heard about a certain internet "gang" through another tech at work and that's how these guys get involved. What they get out of these crimes is beyond me. Initiation sounds as good a reason as any other I guess.

So while Ethan is extremely adamant about his Trane theory, I wouldn't completely dismiss it...it has some very valid points. The closeness to these interstates is a big part of these cases...

[nursebeeme]

This brings me to a question....Do you feel we are "Conspiracy Theorists" as we have been called in several blogs?


:laugh:HECK NO! LOL.... In medicine we rule things OUT. That means usually getting the easiest differential diagnoses ruled out first before you call in the infectious disease consult to rule out rare african viruses and other "zebra~like" diagnoses.

Obviously the first thing has been pretty much been put to rest....that being all these guys were at a bar and jumped willy~nilly into bodies of water. There are still those who think that is all it is.....but then along came the dicks and evidence they have gathered. So now we need to rule other things out. If they didn't get drunk and do a swam dive into the nearest body of water than obviously we have to think about how they got there. Add the dicks alluding to connected gangs with a hierarchy and we must at least branch out from there especially after their credibility has pretty much been verified in hard form.

So, if the dicks say this is a gang that is widespread with pods in several states and with a heirarchy that has some sort of internet connectivity OF COURSE what ever thinking we do next will be right up there with JFK and the Satanic Cult Scare of the 80's.

Calling any theories from this point on, a 'conspiracy theory' is just plain blindly stupid (sorry to be so blunt...but I have no sympathy for people that call websleuthers conspiracy theorists when the trail of logic is so, well....LOGICAL:doh::banghead:). Anyone who dismisses completely what these dicks have to say are still on step one of logic and thinking all these white (90% of related cases), smart, athletic, similarly built, similarly aged, college students all followed the same progression of drinking, getting separated from friends, and ending up, strangely, in water...meaning no witnesses saw them jump or fall, but it was just accidental and drunken in nature. Dude! Pulling out hair here. That just is not logical. We must move on to the next step and that means they didn't get in that water by themselves. Since local LE pretty much threw away any evidence they could have gleened at the time we need to entertain that gleened by the private eyes.

Again, if these vics were women....would it have went on so long or would the emerging pattern been spotted for what it was YEARS AGO? :confused: Perhaps this victim type was picked just for that very reason and that reason alone????:confused:

As an aside....we must also, again keeping with the what info the dicks have released, entertain the possibility that several of the cases they have connected happened on the same day hundreds of miles apart reinforcing that there is more than one person going about their evil deeds. More than one person "conspiring" to carry out murder. Conspire. Conspiracy. Conspiracy is not always a theory. :bang:

Didn't mean to anger any of those who believe it is accidental in nature. This is my opinion only.

[Peculiar Petunia]

If R-22 was involved, and it was suspected, shouldn't it be able to be found in the lungs? In most of these cases, the lungs are not full of water, and this gas is heavier than air. Could a needle be used to sample any gas pockets, and the contents analyzed with a gas chromatograph of mass spec?

[Peculiar Petunia]

Regarding how close the Interstates are, it sort of goes along with the Midwest and Eastern "bias" of these cases. More rivers, and more Interstates in these states than in the Great Plains.

[vtgirl]

I have a son in college. There are many social sites on-line that give kid's names and where they are going to college. There are also sites that rate other kids . Check out hotornot.com where you can sort by age and sex and rate other kids. This is a perfect way to sort out and choose victims. Given the longevity in these case, it would be interesting to have the date for the earliest college social sites set up on the web and when they were set up.

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, VTGirl! Great information! Here is the answer to your question:

The Early Years

According to the definition above, the first recognizable social network site launched in 1997. SixDegrees.com allowed users to create profiles, list their Friends and, beginning in 1998, surf the Friends lists. Each of these features existed in some form before SixDegrees, of course. Profiles existed on most major dating sites and many community sites. AIM and ICQ buddy lists supported lists of Friends, although those Friends were not visible to others. Classmates.com allowed people to affiliate with their high school or college and surf the network for others who were also affiliated, but users could not create profiles or list Friends until years later. SixDegrees was the first to combine these features.

From 1997 to 2001, a number of community tools began supporting various combinations of profiles and publicly articulated Friends. AsianAvenue, BlackPlanet, and MiGente allowed users to create personal, professional, and dating profiles—users could identify Friends on their personal profiles without seeking approval for those connections (O. Wasow, personal communication, August 16, 2007). Likewise, shortly after its launch in 1999, LiveJournal listed one-directional connections on user pages. LiveJournal's creator suspects that he fashioned these Friends after instant messaging buddy lists (B. Fitzpatrick, personal communication, June 15, 2007)


http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol13/issue1/boyd.ellison.html (Bolded by me)

CompuServe and AOL came into play long before that tho.

CompuServe, (CompuServe Information Service, also known by its acronym CIS), was the first major commercial online service in the United States. It dominated the field during the 1980s and remained a major player through the mid-1990s, when it was sidelined by the rise of information services such as AOL that charged monthly subscriptions rather than hourly rates.

CompuServe was founded in 1969 as Compu-Serv Network, Inc. (the earliest advertising show the name with initial caps) in Columbus, Ohio as a subsidiary of Golden United Corporation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe

AOL: Kimsey changed the company's strategy, and in 1985 launched a dedicated online service for Commodore 64 and 128 computers, originally called Quantum Link ("Q-Link" for short).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL

[vtgirl]

great info! Thanks.

[cheko1]

"CONSPIRACY THEORISTS" :waitasec: What a fancy title!!!! I'm impressed, will have to put that on my next resume!!! LOL

SS I also have been following many of these cases for a very long time 16 of the college men had drowned in Wisconsin. Since thats where I live I'd be a fool to think they all were accidental. I could possibly comprehend the fact that maybe 2 or 3 had got seperated from friends & fallen in & it was considered a accident / but 16 border lines on insanity.

I also live very close to the Mn border so I watch the Twin Cities News & have seen college guys from Mn who also vanished without a trace after a night of partying only to be found drowned also.

I sincerely can't comprehend that these young men are so careless & reckless with there lives to drown themselves. I don't buy the fact that with going to college / they can all afford to be out drinking & get so intoxicated they don't know where they're at & just decide to kill themselves. I just don't buy it. They want to make something of themselves or they wouldn't be in school. I understand there is partying at college.....but this is to many & far to frequent.

[SeriouslySearching]

LOL Cheko! I feel the same way exactly! (especially about the resume part. LMAO)

[SheerLuck]

If R-22 was involved, and it was suspected, shouldn't it be able to be found in the lungs? In most of these cases, the lungs are not full of water, and this gas is heavier than air. Could a needle be used to sample any gas pockets, and the contents analyzed with a gas chromatograph of mass spec?

If tested in an autopsy; both R-22 and carbon monoxide will be found, so most likely the killer would use GHB which leaves the blood in 3-8 hours. Why use a detectable poison or a detectable drug; instead of GHB? And for Denise; I'm very sorry about your loss. I'm working on a few ideas so I hope I can help. If this helps, it might be a better starting point to figure out who it is that appears to hate white men. And Denise, was it you or someone else who posted that your cousin was last seen drinking with some Mexican ladies? I thought I read that here but can't find it now?

[SeriouslySearching]

Did you hear about this story?

A gang of police impersonators abducted and tortured cocaine traffickers, forcing them to hand over multimillion-dollar stashes by holding their families hostage or threatening to squeeze their testicles with pliers, authorities said Tuesday.

An indictment unsealed in federal court in Brooklyn charged eight men with robbery conspiracy, drug dealing and an array of other crimes.

Since the spring of 2003, the gang injured about 100 people while committing 100 holdups targeting large-scale traffickers in New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Florida, investigators said.

~snip~

The victims were handcuffed, bound with duct tape and subjected to various means of torture during interrogations, including "simulated drowning through repeated submerging of victims' heads in water for extended periods of time," the court papers said.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/wireStory?id=4800682

The men, court papers said, "were particularly sophisticated in their tactics," often conducting surveillance on the drug dealers for weeks before arming themselves with handguns and making "a police-style car stop" in cars equipped with lights and sirens.

The defendants, all from the Dominican Republic, were ordered held without bail after pleading not guilty Tuesday in Brooklyn. If convicted, each faces a sentence of 40 years to life behind bars.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/06/police.impersonators.ap/index.html

Not that it could have anything to do with these cases per se...but I thought it was interesting the kinds of torture they were using or threatening to use. Also how easy it was for them to stalk a person then stop them at a vulnerable time while pretending to be LE.

[SeriouslySearching]

If tested in an autopsy; both R-22 and carbon monoxide will be found, so most likely the killer would use GHB which leaves the blood in 3-8 hours. Why use a detectable poison or a detectable drug; instead of GHB? And for Denise; I'm very sorry about your loss. I'm working on a few ideas so I hope I can help. If this helps, it might be a better starting point to figure out who it is that appears to hate white men. And Denise, was it you or someone else who posted that your cousin was last seen drinking with some Mexican ladies? I thought I read that here but can't find it now?Don't you feel you are painting that with a very wide brush? In other words, there are many groups which could possibly want to do harm to these young men (not all of them were caucasion).

It may not have anything to do with "hating white men" and I would hate to suggest that to Denise at the moment without something to back up such a statement. I am going to highly discourage anyone from leading her on here by giving her the false impression of solid information without coming out with it upfront so it can be challenged or moved forward.

The reason we are here is to work together. We don't play games with cases as they involve someone's child, mother, sister, father, etc. We share our information to work as a team doing research and fact finding. We work many hours to come up with everything we can find, but it is a "community" effort here. If someone has a theory...they post it so we can either move it forward or debunk it so not to waste time. If it puts us on the right track then it means with so many working on it in so many different areas of expertise...it might actually go somewhere to help a victim or victims.

[porkchop]

Here's an idea. Maybee it is a group of migrant Mexican workers that are part of a satanic or some religious cult. Maybee these young men are sacrafices. The reason why they use young men is that they discovered that they can kill this group of people without any attention being brought to it. If they are migrant workers it would also explain why the killings seem to be in so many diffrent places since they tend to work in one place and then move to another town for seasonal jobs.
I seem to remmber back in the early 90's or late 80's there was a group of drug dealers in Tijuana that were also satan worshipers. In order to protect themselves from there enemies they would sacrafise young American men that were Tijuana by luring them back to there house with the promise of drugs. As I remmber they were caught because one of them were the last to be seen with a young man that had just been reported missing. When the cops went to there house to follow up they found the missing man and remains that were able to be matched to many more missing american men.

Just saying. :confused:

[SeriouslySearching]

Now..See! That is what I am talking about, Porkchop! A place to start! Actually, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. :)

I guess we need to do a bit of back research on it and go from there. This all took place inside Mexico then?

[porkchop]

Now..See! That is what I am talking about, Porkchop! A place to start! Actually, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. :)

I guess we need to do a bit of back research on it and go from there. This all took place inside Mexico then?

Thank you SS. Yes it took place in Tijuana. It didn't get much press back then. But now all of the missing people are along the border with Mexico is finally getting some attention. Just look up Ciudad Juárez, or Tijuana. There have beenhundreds of rapes and murders there over the years. Most of the murders are believed to be drug related but their are quite a few that are believed to done by one of many cults believed to be there.

[nursebeeme]

porkchop, very interesting and just as ss says.....a place to start thinking outside of the box of accidental drownings.

[Blink34]

Now..See! That is what I am talking about, Porkchop! A place to start! Actually, it isn't out of the realm of possibilities. :)

I guess we need to do a bit of back research on it and go from there. This all took place inside Mexico then?

Porkchop is referring to the Mark Kilroy case and subsequent investigatioin in Matamoras, Mexico.
Major difference would be that those cults are know to be extremely violent, mutilations, etc. There has been none of that in these cases, do you have a theory as to what cult/ or what might be different?

[SheerLuck]

[quote=SeriouslySearching;2209899]Don't you feel you are painting that with a very wide brush? In other words, there are many groups which could possibly want to do harm to these young men (not all of them were caucasion).

It may not have anything to do with "hating white men" and I would hate to suggest that to Denise at the moment without something to back up such a statement.

Hello SS; when you try to figure a case out that might involve a serial killer or killers; you look for similarities in the cases that appear connected. Since every single drowning involves a young white man; except for 2 Asians; both of whom have some circumstances that are a bit different than the other cases; it means they might not connect; and if the 2 Asian cases turn out to be accidents; then every other drowning does involve a young white man who was drinking. That is NOT a broad brush--it's an obvios clue that young white men are specifically targeted. We have no women, no completely sober people, no blacks and no mexicans yet and remember most serial killers targeted similiar victims. I asked Denise a question about Mexicans but that in no way means I think Mexicans are behind this and maybe I read that on a different thread? Everyone is here for their own reasons; my reason is that this interests me and I'm hoping to use my ideas and research and maybe get a few clues from others and connect the dots and give the info to LE. But I'm not going to throw out my conclusions now; why would I? When I post where I'm going, which for starters; is that a group of people is targeting young white men who drink; I'm met with negativity. If everything I have connects, I'll definitely contact LE, post here or contact a family member with a private message if thats possible

[Indigator]

I don't see this as that sort of murder-considering the horrible ways one person could murder another, these deaths are almost, well, "gentle". Before anyone goes ballistic over my choice of words, consider that the victim is fully clothed, not bruised or beaten (at least visibly), has all body parts etc. and may have been drowned while unconscious. This leads me back to considering that it is a woman or women and/or a group of people who can keep quiet-nuns/priests/ministers and who would never have a reason to trade information for leniency (no contact with LE for other reasons).

[SuziQ]

Sheerluck, what was met with negativity is the "I know something you don't" game you like to play.

[SheerLuck]

Maybe a gang or cult is behind this but if they are; I'm surprised they aren't robbing their victims. That and the lack of trauma is what's so bizzarre and different about these and its also why so many in LE are skeptical that these are even connected. Because there seems to be an intentional effort to to not rob the victims of their money; I take that as a clue. I think the intent of not taking the money is to send LE a message. The message is that this is not about the money, but instead the mission. My idea is that the mission could be 2 things--2 completely different ideas. One could be very simple: the person has a fascination with serial killers so he's doing this not for sex or robbery but simply because he idolizes a previous serial killers. Thats my longshot idea. My other idea is that this is a group of people who have a gripe; possibly even a political gripe; and the gripe is compounded with a hatred towards young white men. But I'm not going to single out and trash a group of people until I'm sure

[SheerLuck]

Sheerluck, what was met with negativity is the "I know something you don't" game you like to play.

Sorry if you think I'm playing games. I read some of my previous posts and I can see you are right, What I was trying to do was hint towards what I'm thinking to see if anyone here would add to it and a few people did which was helpful. My ideas are probably wrong anyway, but I guess my confusion is that I can't figure out if it would help LE more or the killers more; if someone figured this out and posted it here. Maybe a family member could help me with this. I better get to work

[eve]

Sorry if you think I'm playing games. I read some of my previous posts and I can see you are right, What I was trying to do was hint towards what I'm thinking to see if anyone here would add to it and a few people did which was helpful. My ideas are probably wrong anyway, but I guess my confusion is that I can't figure out if it would help LE more or the killers more; if someone figured this out and posted it here. Maybe a family member could help me with this. I better get to work

I am glad you clarified. I now can see what you are trying to do, but when you said we'd "kick ourselves when we figured it out" it made me crazy!

You perhaps are thinking it's a certain ethnic groupo with a beef, as has been tgheorized but others, I believe. I can see that being sensitive without supporting evidence. Still, I am very inetrested in anyone's theories!

Eve

[SeriouslySearching]

Sorry if you think I'm playing games. I read some of my previous posts and I can see you are right, What I was trying to do was hint towards what I'm thinking to see if anyone here would add to it and a few people did which was helpful. My ideas are probably wrong anyway, but I guess my confusion is that I can't figure out if it would help LE more or the killers more; if someone figured this out and posted it here. Maybe a family member could help me with this. I better get to workI am glad you understand what my message (thanks, Suzi) was about the games. I think it is one thing to do it to us...but quite another to a family member. Things are better left unsaid than to give them a false sense of solid information being witheld from them. It is a rollercoaster ride enough for them and very difficult for them to be here among our discussions. We do discuss things openly and get fairly graphic. (Sorry, Denise) However, it is the only way to develop correct theories to stop these people from harming others, imo.

Here, we don't "hint" about things and hope people pick up on them to help prove or disprove a theory. We come out with what we have and it allows people here to literally pick it apart or not. If I come up with a wild theory...which everyone knows I do sometimes...I want people to pick it apart to save time. I could be working in another direction to find the answers.

There isn't any way it helps the killers to see the theory on here or anywhere else, imo. It does quite the opposite. It puts them on notice that people are watching and they are on limited time before it all comes together. It would hopefully put a stop to what they are doing! By posting a correct theory...LE that read here will pick up on it. If by working together we can put the pieces to the puzzle in...they can take it from there. Every case starts with one piece falling into place. Too often, it is missing or overlooked by LE. We try to find it.

Right now, LE is not going to entertain ANY other ideas on the cases unless you have a photo to back it up while it was being carried out (as one father was told). The Dicks (thanks, Nurse) are in a similar situation as they are only talking to families because they are being swamped with information. They aren't going to listen to other theories because they have worked years to develop their own and feel confident they have solid evidence to back it up.

We already know it has to do with the age, status, alcohol, sex, athletic ability, intelligence, and location. We have the profile of the victims. What we don't have is the profile/profiles of the killer/killers. The Dicks (thanks, N) believe it is "pods" of people in different locations. This could be gangs or any other grouping. We already know robbery is not a motive. We already know the motive is driven by a single ideology.

[SeriouslySearching]

Porkchop is referring to the Mark Kilroy case and subsequent investigatioin in Matamoras, Mexico.
Major difference would be that those cults are know to be extremely violent, mutilations, etc. There has been none of that in these cases, do you have a theory as to what cult/ or what might be different?Great questions. I believe Porkchop mentioned they might have changed from such violent "tactics" so not to draw attention to themselves, but still carry out ritualistic behaviors to keep them "safe".

Could it be that the first murder was a "fluke", but since LE immediately ruled it an accidental death...it paved the way for them to expand on it and perfect their mode of killing? They were given carte blanche to kill with no worry of detection as long as it was carried out basically the same way each time. (It has been perfect all along. No evidence, no witnesses, and no mistakes.)

[Indigator]

Has anyone considered those men (and women) who have mysteriously disappeared from cruise ships. Different MO, but in a sense, similiar. Night of partying, young guy (usually) disappears and it is assumed that he committed suicide or it was accidental.

[SeriouslySearching]

No, Indigator...I had not considered it, but you are right. Many unanswered questions there, too. I think most of us would assume that alcohol and a ship don't mix well anyway. Then again...people think that alcohol and rivers don't either! Interesting.

[ArizonaGiGi]

[quote=SeriouslySearching;2209899]Don't you feel you are painting that with a very wide brush? In other words, there are many groups which could possibly want to do harm to these young men (not all of them were caucasion).

It may not have anything to do with "hating white men" and I would hate to suggest that to Denise at the moment without something to back up such a statement.

Hello SS; when you try to figure a case out that might involve a serial killer or killers; you look for similarities in the cases that appear connected. Since every single drowning involves a young white man; except for 2 Asians; both of whom have some circumstances that are a bit different than the other cases; it means they might not connect; and if the 2 Asian cases turn out to be accidents; then every other drowning does involve a young white man who was drinking. That is NOT a broad brush--it's an obvios clue that young white men are specifically targeted. We have no women, no completely sober people, no blacks and no mexicans yet and remember most serial killers targeted similiar victims. I asked Denise a question about Mexicans but that in no way means I think Mexicans are behind this and maybe I read that on a different thread? Everyone is here for their own reasons; my reason is that this interests me and I'm hoping to use my ideas and research and maybe get a few clues from others and connect the dots and give the info to LE. But I'm not going to throw out my conclusions now; why would I? When I post where I'm going, which for starters; is that a group of people is targeting young white men who drink; I'm met with negativity. If everything I have connects, I'll definitely contact LE, post here or contact a family member with a private message if thats possible



SHEERLUCK, LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT. YOU WANT TO GET CLUES FROM OTHERS (US) BUT WILL NOT SHARE YOUR "CONCLUSIONS" WITH US? WHAT AN A$$HOLE YOU SOUND LIKE. DID YOU REALIZE IT?

[luthersmama]

Did you hear about this story?



The victims were handcuffed, bound with duct tape and subjected to various means of torture during interrogations, including "simulated drowning through repeated submerging of victims' heads in water for extended periods of time," the court papers said.







Another name for this style of torture is "Waterboarding", and our President thinks it is just dandy. Better check and see if anyone recently discharged from Special Forces fits the geographic profile. :rolleyes:

[SeriouslySearching]

I thought waterboarding was pouring water on the subject to make them feel as if they were drowning instead of dunking them repeatedly.

Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward—known as the Trendelenburg position—and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1][2] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent.[3] In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

[Denisenevergivesup]

Hi all, sorry for the delay...I don't get a chance to check this everyday. 2 things: 1. Though I appreciate the concern, please feel free to throw out every idea/theory you may come up with, no matter how graphic or possibly offensive. I don't come here expecting things to be sugar coated for me. Part of why I'm here is because my aunt can't handle it, but she's very interested in what others are saying/thinking. I relay ideas back to her, but in a very protective way. I believe you all have good intentions and are not out to bash the victims or families.

2. I did post on the other site that Tommy's friends told the cops they last saw him at the bar talking to 3 Spanish girls. I dismissed it as lies because when I went to the bar the following Sat. night, there wasn't a single Latino person in there.

I heard a couple different stories about what happened that night according to his friends, the bartenders, and bouncers. I can't even figure out which is the correct version at this point. I've asked my aunt to keep me informed as far as what the police tell her, but I'm also not going to post anything without her permission. If I can help lead you either towards or away from something, I will. In the meantime, I'll keep following what you're writing and hopefully we'll figure this out.

I'm especially curious as to what the M.E. may or may not find in his second look at the autopsy. I'm hoping he is able to run additional tests to help rule things out...or maybe get lucky and find a trace of something unusual. I haven't heard anything about that and I don't even know when to expect any answers. Again, if I can share, I will. Thanks for your thoughts & helpful info.

[SeriouslySearching]

Hugs to you and the family, Denise. I know it can't be easy. I am glad you are aware that we are only trying to find the truth to prevent this from happening to someone else's child and also to find answers for the family. It is good that you field things for your aunt. Some things can be quite troubling that we come up with and entirely off base at the same time. The ups and downs of any case is to explore possibilities in various directions. You never know when things are going to "hit" on something during that process or take us so far off track we hit a wall.

I must ask if anyone else can corroborate the 3 spanish girls being there at all? It would surprise me to see them there later, if they possibly were involved. However, it doesn't mean they were involved...but one could have a boyfriend who was jealous. It is an area to explore at least.

Is there a large population of Hispanics in that particular area? Are there ongoing construction projects in the area very near the bar? Do you know how many patrons were in the bar when he went missing?

[Blink34]

Has anyone considered those men (and women) who have mysteriously disappeared from cruise ships. Different MO, but in a sense, similiar. Night of partying, young guy (usually) disappears and it is assumed that he committed suicide or it was accidental.
Is there generally a robbery motive in that instance?
I see it as possible, but if there is that torture element, alot harder to stay anonymous.

[Blink34]

Hugs to you and the family, Denise. I know it can't be easy. I am glad you are aware that we are only trying to find the truth to prevent this from happening to someone else's child and also to find answers for the family. It is good that you field things for your aunt. Some things can be quite troubling that we come up with and entirely off base at the same time. The ups and downs of any case is to explore possibilities in various directions. You never know when things are going to "hit" on something during that process or take us so far off track we hit a wall.

I must ask if anyone else can corroborate the 3 spanish girls being there at all? It would surprise me to see them there later, if they possibly were involved. However, it doesn't mean they were involved...but one could have a boyfriend who was jealous. It is an area to explore at least.

Is there a large population of Hispanics in that particular area? Are there ongoing construction projects in the area very near the bar? Do you know how many patrons were in the bar when he went missing?

To add to Super SS questions-
Is there any other reason to disbelieve Tommy's friends account of that evening?

[Blink34]

OMG, Before you all question my sanity (not that it would be out of the question)

This was actually posted on another site (just providing link, cause I'm nice) but I just stopped laughing long enough to cut and paste it. This is a posters theory, and he is not kidding by the way,

http://visionandpsychosis.net/

I want to say in advance if anyone has a psychotic episode if the lights flicker on your laptop and you suddenly feel like jumping in the river I am not responsible.

I gurantee you that link gets posted on any site of someone who dies of anything from gout to murder

[SeriouslySearching]

I have heard of that before, Blink. While I think it is way out there...you can't deny that certain websites/games/tv shows because of light patterns etc. have been known to bring on seizures in people with Epilepsy.

So do I buy into this theory? No. However, I think they are really thinking outside of the box and in a way...it is a good thing. We don't know enough about the human brain today. That study is still in its infancy and there is so much to be explored. If it means some Scientist with credentials will decide to debunk the theory then it served a purpose. :)

[Blink34]

SS- I don't deny any of what you are saying re the gaming issue, for sure, but the theory itself goes against the proponderence of evidence in every one of these cases that I am aware of. I think you and I and others on this thread generally start out of the box and then narrow down, that's true, but I was floored by that-

[Indigator]

I know the area of Bootlegger's pretty well-lived there for forty years, in my day it was an after hours club, I think, called R&S Club. The area was a hotbed, in the 70's for biker gangs and there remains a long list of women found murdered, bodies dumped in the nearby Tinicum marshes. Most unexplained, never solved etc. Presently, it is a working class area, some sections better than others. The area near Bootlegger's is less desireable than other areas of Ridley Township. There is a housing project nearby as well as Widener University. Overall, mostly decent, hard working people. It was never an area with a large Hispanic population-they make up less than 1% of the population in Ridley and only 5% in nearby Chester. If there were Hispanic women in the bar, I would find that very suspicious, since that would be very unusual.

[Indigator]

Also a Marine Training Center a few miles away.

[Blink34]

I know the area of Bootlegger's pretty well-lived there for forty years, in my day it was an after hours club, I think, called R&S Club. The area was a hotbed, in the 70's for biker gangs and there remains a long list of women found murdered, bodies dumped in the nearby Tinicum marshes. Most unexplained, never solved etc. Presently, it is a working class area, some sections better than others. The area near Bootlegger's is less desireable than other areas of Ridley Township. There is a housing project nearby as well as Widener University. Overall, mostly decent, hard working people. It was never an area with a large Hispanic population-they make up less than 1% of the population in Ridley and only 5% in nearby Chester. If there were Hispanic women in the bar, I would find that very suspicious, since that would be very unusual.

Good point, Denise- in the friends descriptions or comments you are aware of, were these women spanish -looking or spanish looking with spanish accents? Had anyone seen them in the bar previously?

[Indigator]

http://www.bootleggersusa.com/

There are photos posted of the club the night Tommy went missing.

[SeriouslySearching]

http://www.bootleggersusa.com/

There are photos posted of the club the night Tommy went missing.WOW! Excellent!! Let me get this right...Tommy went missing 1/19, correct?!

If so, it looks like there was an Upper Darby Policeman there that night. Where is Upper Darby Township? There is also a photo of him with two other "buddies". Fellow officers?

Interestingly enough...the guy playing guitar seems to have a smiley face on his shirt.

If you want great photos of that night in Bootleggers...my suggestion is to follow the "fans" of Deja Vu (the band) that night on myspace. Here is their page: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=199237354

LE should follow up with the women who posted they were going to the show or went to the show. They probably have tons of photos they didn't post. Anytime you have a band with a following, they normally have a "street team" which are responsible for putting up posters and getting crowds. They are usually females and they take photos constantly at venues.

They also had a "Bachelorette Party" that night. More photos if the family or LE will contact the Bride. :)

This is a good idea for every bar we are talking about that had bands in the bars the night these men went missing.

Thanks so much, Indignator!! My lightbulb finally went on. :)

[SeriouslySearching]

I love that this bar has a website. I want to research the rest of them now! Can I get a little help?

[looneymama]

hi, I'm new I've been reading the threads about this case but haven't been unable to log in until today. I think you all are awesome!

I looked at the lone tree's website (http://www.lonetreeannex.com/documents/45.html) but Chris Jenkins was there too long ago. The pictures and videos are more recent....there is a video from last year's Halloween (not the one he was at) but interesting to look at if you've never been there and want to see what it's like on Halloween there.

I also found this (http://twincities.citysearch.com/review/5578447/2169381) review to be pretty interesting. Again though...that was from 2007 so I don't know if any of the same people work there still.

I'm from MN... the mpd's actions (and lack of) are just embarrassing!

[SeriouslySearching]

Welcome to WS, Looneymama!! Thanks for helping! It still gives us some insight to the crowds. We might be able to spot some regulars there, too. Anyone or anything to give us a clue on what could have happened in the club that night would be a good thing. This could be something the Detectives have overlooked.

Oh, I never thought about reading the reviews! Great idea! You are taking off like wildfire here. :) Awesome!

I just started a new thread to list the clubs, the bands, etc. Please add your finds to it!! It is great to have them here for discussion, but we need a list of them so we can keep them together and organized as much as possible.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64751

About MPD...I am sorry. I am probably the most outspoken on them here after Kelly Nolan's case.

[SeriouslySearching]

I was correct about that guitar player! He IS wearing a smiley face t-shirt!!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/SeriouslySearching/guitarplayerssmileyfacet.jpg

http://www.dejavurocksyou.com/1.html

[looneymama]

Thank you for the warm welcome! I'll add those links to the other thread right now. I think a separate thread is a good idea!

[looneymama]

I was correct about that guitar player! He IS wearing a smiley face t-shirt!!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/SeriouslySearching/guitarplayerssmileyfacet.jpg

ew...a creepy one too. :eek:

[SeriouslySearching]

If you will look on the photo thread, you can compare that smiley face to the one found on the back of the building where they were playing that night in graffiti. Striking resemblance. While it may not have anything to do with it...I find it very coincidental.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64110

[SuziQ]

Welcome to WS Looneymama!

SS, good idea on setting up a thread for club related info.

[SheerLuck]

WOW! Excellent!! Let me get this right...Tommy went missing 1/19, correct?!
. :)

SS, Tommy Booth went missing on 1/19/07; not 1/19/08. You need to go back a year. Also remember what Blink34 reminded the board a week ago, when Blink34 posted that often the missing dates can be misleading. Tommy Booth was reported missing on 1/19/07; so did he go to Bootleggers on the night of the 18th and go missing the following morning on the 19th or did he go out on the 19th but really go missing in the early morning hours of the 20th. Maybe Denise can help us with that. And also Denise; if you have the time; maybe tell us what the conflicting stories were that you got from Tommy's friends and the bouncers. The NYC detectives appear stumped because they say they only have released 10% of what they have; yet they're asking the public for help. Maybe they're just warning thepublic of maybe the Minn TV station did this for sweeps rating week, but I suspect the detectives are unable to nail this down and need help. If thats the case we might be dealing with an intelligient and psychotic serial killer who also might be sober. Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer and many others made mistakes due in large part when they were drinking. So maybe we have a sober serial killer who hates white men and also hates alcohol. I wonder if the bartenders would remember anyone a bit creepy that night who was only drinking sodas and either with or near the dark skinned women(an impossible longshot probably because it was 15 months ago)

[Blink34]

SS, Tommy Booth went missing on 1/19/07; not 1/19/08. You need to go back a year. Also remember what Blink34 reminded the board a week ago, when Blink34 posted that often the missing dates can be misleading. Tommy Booth was reported missing on 1/19/07; so did he go to Bootleggers on the night of the 18th and go missing the following morning on the 19th or did he go out on the 19th but really go missing in the early morning hours of the 20th. Maybe Denise can help us with that. And also Denise; if you have the time; maybe tell us what the conflicting stories were that you got from Tommy's friends and the bouncers. The NYC detectives appear stumped because they say they only have released 10% of what they have; yet they're asking the public for help. Maybe they're just warning thepublic of maybe the Minn TV station did this for sweeps rating week, but I suspect the detectives are unable to nail this down and need help. If thats the case we might be dealing with an intelligient and psychotic serial killer who also might be sober. Gacy, Bundy, Dahmer and many others made mistakes due in large part when they were drinking. So maybe we have a s