Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #3

[SuziQ]

New thread here.

Thread #1
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64034

Thread #2

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64230

[nursebeeme]

SS, I have just cross posted all the links at the new thread that shadow started.

Welcome ArizonaGG!

Last but not least one last post here on why I am on this, as Reannan says, 'like a bulldog on a bone' LOL: This is my reasoning to investigate it further.

The case breaks wide open with the Dicks on kstp. The "nationwide gang" piece is introduced to the world. It is truly a crazy and unbelievable thought.
~~
The Chris Jenkins case comes to the fore. His death is now a homicide. It is similar to others around the nation.
~~
Chris's mother makes a statement about the depth and breadth of the evil and discusses her conviction that Chris was abducted, driven around in a van, tortured, and murdered in the river. She states the group is widespread.
~~
Ian Punnet of afterdark does a follow up interview with Kristi Piehl. They talked off the record about getting a neutral party to interface with the fbi to hear out all of the facts gathered by the dicks. Ian states the fbi man (unnamed) said, "yes" he would
~~
Chris's older sister, in interviews, states that she has viewed all of the info the dicks have and is convinced she knows the motive and why her brother was murdered but cannot disclose it.
~~
Ian had a strange odometer incident
~~
list goes on... Discuss at the cult thread....

Thanks SuziQ...
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[SuziQ]

One last post before I call it a night. Kristi said that 20/20 is working on an entire hour on this case. No air date yet.

The Jenkins family is upset at a recent article from a local Mpls mag that attacked the Jenkins family. I have not found said article.

[porkchop]

I have a feeling this case will be broken open by a parole officer finding pictures or video that one of the parolees had or some Geek Squad guy finding pictures or video on a computer somebody brought in to be fixed. If there are truly "pods" I believe they would be taking picture or video of the murders and sharing them with others.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for the new thread, Suzi~

Nurse, I believe the Congressman is the person called by the talk show host and he has already sent a letter to the head of the FBI addressing this issue.

Porkchop, I think it is possible they do have video or photos. I don't expect them to be found on computers tho. They are more intelligent, imo.

[porkchop]

Thanks for the new thread, Suzi~

Nurse, I believe the Congressman is the person called by the talk show host and he has already sent a letter to the head of the FBI addressing this issue.

Porkchop, I think it is possible they do have video or photos. I don't expect them to be found on computers tho. They are more intelligent, imo.

Just because they haven't been caught doesn't mean they are intelligent it just means that nobody seriously investigated it. If there are sevaral pods like the dectectives think then they would probably be trading proof of there killings and the easiest way would be via internet.

[SeriouslySearching]

You do have a point there, Porkchop. :)

[dairybest]

I have two questions that have been annoying me and may already have been asked.

1) Why don't these supposedly drunken tragedies happen on "Spring Break" when thousands of college students get blistered ON the water?

2) Why doesn't the concentration of tragedies from the Central U.S. through New England (and not on the West Coast) NOT send up a flag for the FBI?

Thanks ~ db

[shorty0927]

Yay...I'm in! Cheers to the webmaster!

Maybe this theory has already been ruled unlikely, but now that I can post a response, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in...

I went to school at U of WI-Eau Claire in the 90's. Moved away about the time this all got started. Unless it was a minority fraternity/sorority from a much larger school that came in to town to do the deed, it wasn't a sorority/frat at UWEC doing this. I think it has become a bit more diverse in the last few years, but at the time I was there, you could count the number of African-American students attending on one hand. There were more Asian and Asian-American students than anything else, but many were ESL, so I doubt there was a highly organized minority fraternity/sorority operating there. Besides, the Greek system at UWEC barely had a pulse--they could barely get enough members to keep going. I was in one of the sororities, so I know.

The only 'gang' in Eau Claire that may have had an axe to grind with white males might be the semi-oppressed Laotian population in Eau Claire. But there wasn't normally violence associated with that population, so it's hard to imagine that someone there is the perp.

---------
Ok, on to Michael Noll. I read a post not long ago dismissing Noll's drowning in Eau Claire as accidental because he was so drunk that he walked into some old lady's house by accident. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss. His house was right on the Chippewa River, but he was found on Half Moon Lake in Carson Park in Eau Claire. I found this mapped data online, so I don't know if this is exactly where Noll was found on Half Moon, but at the nearest part of the lake, it's a half mile from his house. To the point were the map indicates, it's over a mile.

http://www.strangelove.net/%7Eshorty/Noll.jpg

A couple hours before he was spotted in the neighborhood of his house, he was at the bars on Water Sreet, which is right where that Josh Snell pin is. If he was as drunk as it sounds, he probably got a ride home (upper green pin) from Water Street (no one living in that neighborhood walks to the bars--too far). And honestly, no one would have a reason to go to Carson Park (lake area) early in the morning. Not even for a walk. Anyone that would go to the park at that time (mostly high school kids go to smoke weed or make out) would go in their cars. It's not an inherently dangerous place, there's just not much to see except a bunch of trees. Frankly, I would find it a spooky place to be walking at night without a few other people around. But that's just me--I'm easily creeped out by dark solitude.

From the UWEC newspaper:
http://media.www.spectatornews.com/media/storage/paper218/news/2003/03/27/CampusNews/Noll-Found.In.Half.Moon.Lake-400974.shtml

{snip}

Senior Kim Lucas, a friend of Noll, said the discovery was a relief. Lucas said, however, she was surprised that Noll's body was in the lake, because most of the search had focused on the Chippewa River.

"I am absolutely just shocked," Lucas said. "Half Moon Lake was just out of the question."

{snip}

Authorities have not suspected foul play to this point.

Preliminary autopsy results released Wednesday list the cause of death as "probable fresh water drowning." Noll's body showed no sign of trauma, according to the report.

Lucas, however, isn't so sure.

"I honestly doubted (foul play) up until yesterday," she said. "(Now) I'm definitely questioning it."

Finding Noll's body there doesn't make sense, she said, because Half Moon Lake is so far from both his house and the Water Street bar area.

{snip}

[shorty0927]

db~

Having lived in Wisconsin, Delaware, and the Pacific NW, I can tell you that the culture surrounding alcohol consumption in the upper midwest is not norm around much of the rest of the country. Since leaving Wisconsin, I haven't experienced a party/drinking atmosphere that rivals an autumn Saturday in Madison (for example). Binge drinking is a much bigger problem among college-age people in the upper midwest. Many college students (males mostly) go out with the intention of getting hammered. I don't think they want to be vomiting at the end of the night, but they certainly want to be numb. I haven't seen that anywhere else I've lived.

As for why it doesn't happen more during spring break, I think it's because there ARE so many people around. I'm sure there's extra lifeguards and cops running around--certainly enough people to pull someone out of the water if they accidentally fell in. And as mentioned earlier, the colder water is harder to swim in. It might be easier for a drunk individual to get out of the water in the warmer spring break spots.

[eve]

db~

Having lived in Wisconsin, Delaware, and the Pacific NW, I can tell you that the culture surrounding alcohol consumption in the upper midwest is not norm around much of the rest of the country. Since leaving Wisconsin, I haven't experienced a party/drinking atmosphere that rivals an autumn Saturday in Madison (for example). Binge drinking is a much bigger problem among college-age people in the upper midwest. Many college students (males mostly) go out with the intention of getting hammered. I don't think they want to be vomiting at the end of the night, but they certainly want to be numb. I haven't seen that anywhere else I've lived.

As for why it doesn't happen more during spring break, I think it's because there ARE so many people around. I'm sure there's extra lifeguards and cops running around--certainly enough people to pull someone out of the water if they accidentally fell in. And as mentioned earlier, the colder water is harder to swim in. It might be easier for a drunk individual to get out of the water in the warmer spring break spots.

Why do you think this is? Do you think it has anything to do with there being more victims in the midwest?

Eve

[dairybest]

db~

Having lived in Wisconsin, Delaware, and the Pacific NW, I can tell you that the culture surrounding alcohol consumption in the upper midwest is not norm around much of the rest of the country. Since leaving Wisconsin, I haven't experienced a party/drinking atmosphere that rivals an autumn Saturday in Madison (for example). Binge drinking is a much bigger problem among college-age people in the upper midwest. Many college students (males mostly) go out with the intention of getting hammered. I don't think they want to be vomiting at the end of the night, but they certainly want to be numb. I haven't seen that anywhere else I've lived.

quote]
Thank you for responding to my post and giving your "first person observation" of the differences in culture. That was very helpful.

I guess I am still concerned about the concentration of deaths because according to post # 179 of the second thread by Shadowraiths - [QUOTE]Accidental drownings as a direct result of alcohol consumption. At most, explainable for 38-40% of the missing/drowning cases. The remaing 60-62% (per both witness and autopsy accounts) did not involve alcohol or any other drug.


~db

[shorty0927]

I think the degree of binge drinking in the upper midwest makes it seem more likely that they could be accidental drownings (maybe in the FBI's eyes, anyway). And for the local LE, binge drinking is pretty typical behavior for college students.

I think that it might be appealing for the perp(s) to go after college-aged guys in the upper midwest, because chances are pretty good that they're plastered and have their guard down. Out east, they might not have such an easy time finding victims, because I don't think there'd be quite as many people to choose from.

Oh, and generally among Eau Claire students, the weekend begins on Thursday night and goes all weekend (same window as the drownings). There's no "date night" over the weekend where it's mostly just couples out on the town. It's like singles night every night. I think it's that way elsewhere on Wisconsin campuses, too (including LaCrosse).

[dairybest]

Fran,

Now that I am reading further in the threads, I see that you originally echoed the same geographic concern WAY back there. Have you thought any further about it or uncovered anything else?

~db

P.S. I apologize for the mess I made in Post # 12. Posting is obviously not one of the things I do best!

[dairybest]

I think the degree of binge drinking in the upper midwest makes it seem more likely that they could be accidental drownings (maybe in the FBI's eyes, anyway). And for the local LE, binge drinking is pretty typical behavior for college students.

I think that it might be appealing for the perp(s) to go after college-aged guys in the upper midwest, because chances are pretty good that they're plastered and have their guard down. Out east, they might not have such an easy time finding victims, because I don't think there'd be quite as many people to choose from.

Oh, and generally among Eau Claire students, the weekend begins on Thursday night and goes all weekend (same window as the drownings). There's no "date night" over the weekend where it's mostly just couples out on the town. It's like singles night every night. I think it's that way elsewhere on Wisconsin campuses, too (including LaCrosse).
Again, great feedback. I don't have anything to add. I just wanted to acknowledge your response. ~db

[shorty0927]

db~
I agree. There's more going on here than the occasional drowning drunk. I was at UWEC between 1991-98. There weren't any "drinking-related drownings" in Eau Claire during that time, then all of a sudden in two-years time, there's three. I don't remember hearing about any drownings on other Wisconsin campuses during my tenure, either, certainly not at the frequency that they began happening at the end of the 90's.

[Randal Graves]

So Willie Jacobson's death has been ruled an accidental drowning. But they didn't even get the toxicology report back yet. The ignorance of the people reporting this **** disgusts me. For all they know his BAC was .40 and he had traces of barbituates in his blood- pretty much confirming an accidental drowning. Or maybe he was sober but had cyanide in his blood- pretty much confirming foul play. Nothing can be ruled out until the tox report comes back.

But I guess people like assuming it was an accident so they can sleep soundly at night.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/331634958_387617c29f.jpg

[fran]

I have two questions that have been annoying me and may already have been asked.

1) Why don't these supposedly drunken tragedies happen on "Spring Break" when thousands of college students get blistered ON the water?

2) Why doesn't the concentration of tragedies from the Central U.S. through New England (and not on the West Coast) NOT send up a flag for the FBI?

Thanks ~ db

I so agree with you about 'WHY doesn't this happen on the West Coast?'
IF people think the mid West and East Coast are more wild, think again! There are lakes, rivers, and whole ocean, and 'party schools,' especially on the West Coast, this sort of thing rarely happens. I've looked.

The Santa Barbara area, San Francisco, Long Beach, San Diego, all have huge colleges and this does NOT happen there.

Something sinister is going on here. That I am CERTAIN of. I haven't figured it out YET, but I'm still looking.

The first years these were concentrated more around the Great Lakes and this year they're in Southern States and Eastern States. Me thinks they're trying to trick LE. :eek:

JMHO
fran

[eve]

I so agree with you about 'WHY doesn't this happen on the West Coast?'
IF people think the mid West and East Coast are more wild, think again! There are lakes, rivers, and whole ocean, and 'party schools,' especially on the West Coast, this sort of thing rarely happens. I've looked.

The Santa Barbara area, San Francisco, Long Beach, San Diego, all have huge colleges and this does NOT happen there.

Something sinister is going on here. That I am CERTAIN of. I haven't figured it out YET, but I'm still looking.

The first years these were concentrated more around the Great Lakes and this year they're in Southern States and Eastern States. Me thinks they're trying to trick LE. :eek:

JMHO
fran


I agree, fran.

Is it a location thing or a drinking thing? I guess I never thought of California as being full of tee-totallers, myself! (Is that how you spell tee-totallers? Scratching my head...)

Eve

[SuziQ]

Thanks for the local input on alcohol consumption. And welcome to all new members. I can't keep up with you all!

I can only add my experience from the West Coast and of course it's been decades since I've been in the H/S and College crowd. When I lived in the NW, Alcohol was a big problem because basically due to the incliment weather, there was nothing else to do but drink. Especially in small towns on the coast. And in So Cal., it was basically hard to do because of law enforcement and those traps they set up forcing everyone to drive through. Makes you wonder if it's also not a different in laws and enforcement from state to state. I have family and friends in the midwest and South and it amazes me that when they visit they think nothing about heading to my car with an open beer in their hand. They claim it's ok where they live and I have to explain to them it's not here. I had a friend that grew up in La. and swears their are drive through mixed drink shacks like we have drive through coffee shacks here. I still think he's full of chit and I will welcome anyone who can prove him wrong. lol.

[eve]

So Willie Jacobson's death has been ruled an accidental drowning. But they didn't even get the toxicology report back yet. The ignorance of the people reporting this **** disgusts me. For all they know his BAC was .40 and he had traces of barbituates in his blood- pretty much confirming an accidental drowning. Or maybe he was sober but had cyanide in his blood- pretty much confirming foul play. Nothing can be ruled out until the tox report comes back.

But I guess people like assuming it was an accident so they can sleep soundly at night.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/331634958_387617c29f.jpg

RG,

This just blows me away, but my brother died recently and it was ruled an accident even though tox screens were to take 12 weeks to complete! It involved a fall and a head injury in the home and he was alone, but believe me, my other brother and I have had moments where we've wondered if there was foul play. In the end, I have concluded not - that it was a freak accident - but typically, family members, who know the person, would have good intuition and many in these "drownings" aren't buying the accident rulings. I would be screaming from the roof tops if this were my beloved child.

Eve

[SuziQ]

The Santa Barbara area, San Francisco, Long Beach, San Diego, all have huge colleges and this does NOT happen there.

Something sinister is going on here. That I am CERTAIN of. I haven't figured it out YET, but I'm still looking.

The first years these were concentrated more around the Great Lakes and this year they're in Southern States and Eastern States. Me thinks they're trying to trick LE. :eek:

JMHO
fran

Omg, I had forgotten about SB! My sis lived there and I was always there. Places like that we'd drink to access because we'd walk everywhere. Same with SD.

ETA: I'm fondly recalling the days of $5 dollar pitchers of very strong margaritas and endless bowls of chips and salsa.

[eve]

Thanks for the local input on alcohol consumption. And welcome to all new members. I can't keep up with you all!

I can only add my experience from the West Coast and of course it's been decades since I've been in the H/S and College crowd. When I lived in the NW, Alcohol was a big problem because basically due to the incliment weather, there was nothing else to do but drink. Especially in small towns on the coast. And in So Cal., it was basically hard to do because of law enforcement and those traps they set up forcing everyone to drive through. Makes you wonder if it's also not a different in laws and enforcement from state to state. I have family and friends in the midwest and South and it amazes me that when they visit they think nothing about heading to my car with an open beer in their hand. They claim it's ok where they live and I have to explain to them it's not here. I had a friend that grew up in La. and swears their are drive through mixed drink shacks like we have drive through coffee shacks here. I still think he's full of chit and I will welcome anyone who can prove him wrong. lol.

Hi SuziQ!:blowkiss:

I was in Iowa City (U of I) last weekend and the streets were just filled with drunk students on Friday night! My friend and I (both alums) were shocked - we drank tons back in the late 70's early 80's, but we were inside the bars - we weren't moving in throngs on the streets. I know this to be true of Wis. schools too. So much wandering around outside while trashed! Still, I was observing and never saw one person alone -all were in groups of varying sizes. These killer/s have to be stunning or drugging the victims to get them alone (my vote) or they are lurking on the perimeters of the party locations
waiting for someone to be walking home alone. When I attended law school in IN it was pefectly legal to have/drink an alcoholic beverage in a car while driving as long as you weren't intoxicated. LOL.

Eve

[luthersmama]

So Willie Jacobson's death has been ruled an accidental drowning. But they didn't even get the toxicology report back yet. The ignorance of the people reporting this **** disgusts me. For all they know his BAC was .40 and he had traces of barbituates in his blood- pretty much confirming an accidental drowning. Or maybe he was sober but had cyanide in his blood- pretty much confirming foul play. Nothing can be ruled out until the tox report comes back.

But I guess people like assuming it was an accident so they can sleep soundly at night.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/331634958_387617c29f.jpg

The latest article I saw was on Friday and it says the investigation is ongoing.

[emmcee]

As unlikely as it sounds, the Trane theory (or something similar) might very well provide a connection. It would at least explain why other heavy-drinking party schools (such as Univ of Colo or Berkeley) aren't included, or why other schools in the midwest (such as KSU) don't appear to be involved.

I think the locations of the incidents have to be a major factor.
What other common denominators do the locations have?

On a separate note, regarding ckhagen's desire to see the toxicology report, is that something that can be obtained through the FOIA?

[DeltaDawn]

So Willie Jacobson's death has been ruled an accidental drowning. But they didn't even get the toxicology report back yet. The ignorance of the people reporting this **** disgusts me. For all they know his BAC was .40 and he had traces of barbituates in his blood- pretty much confirming an accidental drowning. Or maybe he was sober but had cyanide in his blood- pretty much confirming foul play. Nothing can be ruled out until the tox report comes back.

But I guess people like assuming it was an accident so they can sleep soundly at night.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/331634958_387617c29f.jpg

Interesting that they already have basically closed the case with some of the info still not in..tox screens. Pretty much what happened in all these cases.

What is the talk around campus? Are people scared, confused, or just taking what they hear from LE as the Truth?

[dairybest]

I think the locations of the incidents have to be a major factor.
What other common denominators do the locations have?


Construction?

[fran]

Fran,

Now that I am reading further in the threads, I see that you originally echoed the same geographic concern WAY back there. Have you thought any further about it or uncovered anything else?

~db

P.S. I apologize for the mess I made in Post # 12. Posting is obviously not one of the things I do best!

I saw your post after I posted. Oh, don't aplogize for anything, LOL. I've been here for ages and still don't know how to use 1/2 the functions.

I have company from out of town so haven't been able to spend too much time on this. But I do notice that they have changed the target areas, a lot!

They're moving away from the Great Lakes and traveling the South and Eastern portion. But they're also hitting Mi 1, Pa 1, Ia 1, and so on. Not sure yet how it works. Two, maybe three groups.

Southern gang
On 11/01/07, Justine Gaines, Duluth, Ga, and next possible 11/09/07, Kyle Fleischman, Charlotte, NC

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/duluth+ga/charlotte+nc/


I have another possibility in Fl, 01/27/08, Tim Chipley, Carrollwood, Fl, from NC.

Another straight shot, double 'missing dated,' 11/09/07, indicates to ME there's at least two groups.


http://www.mapquest.com/maps/Charlotte+NC/tampa+fl/


Eastern gang
IF you take, say 11/09/07, Matt LaCrosse, Bangor, Maine, and next possible connections, 11/30/07, James DeVine, Manhattan, NY,

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/bangor++me/manhattan+ny/

Almost a straight shot.

Then from NY, to 12/07/07 Gabriel Smith, Ludington, Mi.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/manhattan+ny/Ludington+mi/


Basically what you see are straight roadway drives from one to the other. I'm not clear if it's two or three groups, or more?? You could take it south, east, midwest, it all could fit, IMO. OR.......two groups which would mean the East is combined with the midWest, and very busy.

This is all just speculation, of course.

I liked the way everyone was discussing the other night with the possibility of being connected to the monestary, my thinking of possibilities. ALSO, they need to be sure and analyze ALL of, especially the students computers and cell phones. LINKS!? Possible.

Specific targets? Maybe some! Something like Geocaching? The 'happy face' is the proof it was the participant?

Cell phones found NOT with the bodies. The student they're looking for now, they were trying to find him by his cell phone, but they said it must be OFF.

PS.......ONE common thing I found with THREE is one was from Ireland, one had three or more Irish tatoos, and another was pictured in a hat with an Irish clover....coincidence? or the fact they are PERHAPS Catholic Irish?

PPS......What about a priest? Could these students and young people be FORMER victims and had never told anyone???????hhmmmmmmmmmm..................

[kemo]

I'm pretty familiar with west coast universities and There are definitly quite a few, mostly north of San Francisco, that have significant bodies of water on or near campus. I can't believe there is that much less heavy drinking; California at least ,very strictly enforces age 21 and there are restrictions on drikning establishments within a mile of campus. This would mean that more drinking is done in homes/residences/ parties and less in bars. There may be shorter walks home. Also, the weather, even in the Seattle area, in milder than the mid-west. It is rarely below freezing so a fall in the water would be less likely fatal.

This raises the big question I have had: in warmer areas, or during warmer months, do drunken students "fall" into bodies of water at a clip that is comparable to the wintertime occuances in the upper mid-west? In other words, is it the extremely cold water/weather that makes a not particulaly unusual mishap fatal?

I can't imagine being so drunk that I could fall of a bridge or otherwise end up in water while walking home on a city street but I don't doubt it can happen. Some of these case seem to involve young men who were alone when they entered the water. Is anyone aware of any information as to how common these "misadventures" are? Most of the time, it wouldn't be reported to any authorities, It would only be noticed by dorm-mates or passerbys or joked about during future bull sessions.

[emmcee]

. . .

I liked the way everyone was discussing the other night with the possibility of being connected to the monestary . . .

. . .

PS.......ONE common thing I found with THREE is one was from Ireland, one had three or more Irish tatoos, and another was pictured in a hat with an Irish clover....coincidence? or the fact they are PERHAPS Catholic Irish?

PPS......What about a priest? Could these students and young people be FORMER victims and had never told anyone???????hhmmmmmmmmmm..................

Great comments. I think the Monks need to stay under consideration. I had thought they might be involved because of "envy" but your last comment here might be more appropriate.


Specific targets? Maybe some! Something like Geocaching? The 'happy face' is the proof it was the participant?

Now HERE is another very interesting thought. Geocaching is becoming a pretty popular hobby.

Not only the 'happy face' proofs, but also the numbers involved with the latitudes and longitudes where the bodies were found (or put into the water) might turn something up.

hmmmm

[fran]

While my daughter attened school in San Diego, I know of one student who committed suicide (in his home) and one who drowned while surfing (there were witnesses during the day).

NOT ONE mysterious disappearance and then showed up drowned. Believe me, those students knew how to drink! AND, they were within walking distance to the Pacific Ocean from campus. IF this was so common, it would be happening there, believe me. The same for Santa Barabara!

IIRC, the biggest danger in the San Diego area is going across the border and getting yourself arrested! The San Diego students get a LOT of lectures about that. But, I also don't recall any of those students going 'missing,' from a night of drinking in Mexico. Although now, I would HIGHLY discourage it as they are having MANY problems there, with gun battles in the streets.

I know there's one student, can't recall the name right now, recently went missing from campus in San Francisco. He's not been located. But, that is ONE case in how many years compared to these other, 'mysterious drownings and disappearances?'

IMHO, there is something sinister here. Maybe not involving ALL the disappearances and drownings, but a significant amount.

JMHO
fran

PS.....The water temperature in the Pacific Ocean drops sigificant enough to cause hyperthermia, like the Great Lakes and East Coast. It may not be AS cold, but the same sort of thing could happen here,...........but does NOT...fran

[fran]

Now HERE is another very interesting thought. Geocaching is becoming a pretty popular hobby.

Not only the 'happy face' proofs, but also the numbers involved with the latitudes and longitudes where the bodies were found (or put into the water) might turn something up.

hmmmm

FWIW, Joseph Duncan participated in geocaching. Ehh, he also participated in scuba diving. Although he lived in North Dakota, he traveled to Minnesota to go scuba diving (also to commit lude acts). I am NOT saying he's involved in THIS CASE, but just that the mentality of a serial killer, molester, does this sort of thing. Games, water, etc.

Another thing he did (Duncan) was make a computer game where he didn't know what to do with the conquered, so he destroyed (ie killed them), which doctors have said that's the same mind set he used with his victims.

Conquer, kill 'em. {spooky}

JMHO
fran

[SuziQ]

http://www.thepost.ohiou.edu/Articles/News/2008/05/05/24309/

Although the 1998 drowning of an Ohio University freshman is similar to a string of deaths being investigated as murders by private investigators, local police aren’t sure if there’s any connection at all.
The death of Keith Noble Jr. of Worthington, Ohio, shares some similarities with a string of drownings in the Great Lakes region that two retired police detectives feel are the work of a serial killer, said Athens Police Department Lt. David Williams. But those investigators have yet to contact Athens police, he added.
“I’d like to get together and compare notes with them,” said Williams, the lead investigator in the Noble case. (more at link)

[SuziQ]

Although some LE agencies are wanting to talk to Gannon and Duarte, it seems none of them are succesful at being able to get in contact with them.

http://media.www.spectatornews.com/media/storage/paper218/news/2008/05/05/News/Detectives.Link.Deaths.Serial.Killers-3364006.shtml

(snip)
Many of those students attended universities in Minnesota and Wisconsin, including two UW-Eau Claire students and a visiting Minnesotan. Craig Burrows, Michael Nolls and Joshua Snell were all included on Gannon's list of Midwestern students possibly murdered and left in bodies of water.

However, Eau Claire Police Chief Jerry Matysik doesn't believe any foul play was involved in the three Eau Claire drownings.

[RR0004]

Well, I can tell you one thing Suzi...my daughter has reported that the students out at her school in Wisconsin are fed up with the ineptitude of LE (me, too!). She actually said she's lucky to be graduating this month 'cause it's time to get out of Dodge.

[RR0004]

Oh, and welcome to all new posters.

Eve, I'm sorry for your loss.

[eve]

Oh, and welcome to all new posters.

Eve, I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you RR. My son has said the same thing as your daughter has. Although I think he intends to stay in school quite awhile (grad or med), somewhere. I'm thinking in a safe bubble somewhere if I could choose. :rolleyes:

Eve

[Blink34]

Although some LE agencies are wanting to talk to Gannon and Duarte, it seems none of them are succesful at being able to get in contact with them.

http://media.www.spectatornews.com/media/storage/paper218/news/2008/05/05/News/Detectives.Link.Deaths.Serial.Killers-3364006.shtml

(snip)
Many of those students attended universities in Minnesota and Wisconsin, including two UW-Eau Claire students and a visiting Minnesotan. Craig Burrows, Michael Nolls and Joshua Snell were all included on Gannon's list of Midwestern students possibly murdered and left in bodies of water.

However, Eau Claire Police Chief Jerry Matysik doesn't believe any foul play was involved in the three Eau Claire drownings.

He seriously is going to regret the quote about no foul play absent trauma- what an inept thig to say- watch a CSI for the love of Pete

[SuziQ]

He seriously is going to regret the quote about no foul play absent trauma- what an inept thig to say- watch a CSI for the love of Pete

Lacrosse PD is just as adamant. Rudely so.

[Blink34]

ok, call me crazy, but I am going to put this young man as a possible victim in CA, where there has not been any, you will see why-
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/williams-body-death-2005804-police-diego

Dane Chandler Williams
Date Missing: 1/26/08
Date Found 1/29/08

COD: Undetermined
Tox: booze, valium (parents said no prescription) And - quinine? None of which killed him. Had small cuts all over his body
It's mho, that this could be an evolution of our vic profile. He was in water, but found in the alley, dumped there. Let me know your thoughts.

[SuziQ]

ok, call me crazy, but I am going to put this young man as a possible victim in CA, where there has not been any, you will see why-
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/williams-body-death-2005804-police-diego

Dane Chandler Williams
Date Missing: 1/26/08
Date Found 1/29/08

COD: Undetermined
Tox: booze, valium (parents said no prescription) And - quinine? None of which killed him. Had small cuts all over his body
It's mho, that this could be an evolution of our vic profile. He was in water, but found in the alley, dumped there. Let me know your thoughts.

Well quinine was a weird one for me. The only thing I've heard about quinine was mention in historic fiction and non fiction publications. So of course I had to Wiki it and look what I found:

Quinine is often added to street drugs cocaine or ketamine in order to "cut" the product and make more profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine

[DeltaDawn]

ok, call me crazy, but I am going to put this young man as a possible victim in CA, where there has not been any, you will see why-
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/williams-body-death-2005804-police-diego

Dane Chandler Williams
Date Missing: 1/26/08
Date Found 1/29/08

COD: Undetermined
Tox: booze, valium (parents said no prescription) And - quinine? None of which killed him. Had small cuts all over his body
It's mho, that this could be an evolution of our vic profile. He was in water, but found in the alley, dumped there. Let me know your thoughts.


Also it seems his body was postioned to an extent. I think he should be added to the possible vics list.

[Blink34]

Well quinine was a weird one for me. The only thing I've heard about quinine was mention in historic fiction and non fiction publications. So of course I had to Wiki it and look what I found:

Quinine is often added to street drugs cocaine or ketamine in order to "cut" the product and make more profit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine

Ketamine:
What are some consequences of Ketamine use?

Higher doses produce an effect referred to as "K-Hole," an "out of body," or "near-death" experience.6 (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/ketamine_factsheet.html#6)
Use of the drug can cause delirium, amnesia, depression, and long-term memory and cognitive difficulties. Due to its dissociative effect, it is reportedly used as a date-rape drug.7 (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/ketamine_factsheet.html#7)
BAM, so Im guessing that is not a routinely given tox test?

[Blink34]

Also it seems his body was postioned to an extent. I think he should be added to the possible vics list.

yes, and he was out of town, convention..
No known West Coast vics, different final place (not water), but he was wet, having not been found in water, they might not look for a "dry drowning."
New coast, new MO, new "blonde" vic, turf war?

[SeriouslySearching]

Quinine is present in tonic water used in mixed drinks. I don't know how much you would have to drink for it to show up as significant. It can also be used to "cut" drugs according to Wiki.

After looking it up, I found it can be used to treat nocturnal leg cramps and has other uses besides treating Malaria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine

We can always add people and systematically rule them out as we learn more about their cases.

ETA: Suzi beat me to it! LOL

[SuziQ]

Ketamine:

What are some consequences of Ketamine use?

Higher doses produce an effect referred to as "K-Hole," an "out of body," or "near-death" experience.6 (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/ketamine_factsheet.html#6)
Use of the drug can cause delirium, amnesia, depression, and long-term memory and cognitive difficulties. Due to its dissociative effect, it is reportedly used as a date-rape drug.7 (http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/concern/ketamine_factsheet.html#7)
BAM, so Im guessing that is not a routinely given tox test?

The video mentions he was drinking tonic water. At Wiki it says quinine is also in tonic water. Maybe because it showed up the ME wrongly assumes it's tonic water instead of Special K.

[SuziQ]

yes, and he was out of town, convention..
No known West Coast vics, different final place (not water), but he was wet, having not been found in water, they might not look for a "dry drowning."
New coast, new MO, new "blonde" vic, turf war?

There is one vic from Washington, but nothing yet so far in the Southwest. Doesn't mean there isn't any though.

[SuziQ]

lol SS, great minds think alike you know.

[SeriouslySearching]

Welcome to WS, Kemo and Shorty! (Sorry, if I have missed someone!) I am still catching up on my reading here. Great input everyone!

[Silver~Bell]

For those wondering about being so intoxicated that you'd fall into water -- and doubting it -- be aware that when someone is intoxicated, they lose many abilities, including that of self-preservation, and they do things no sensible person would do and that they would not ordinarily do.

Just to note, when reading about the Maura Murray case today, a side story spoke of a young man who was either "hit by a car" or "fell out of a car" the same night Maura got upset after the phone call near the end of her workshift at the dorm (someone was trying to say maybe she hit him and that's why she was crying, what a longshot). Here's the amazing part: HE COULDN'T TELL what had happened! That's how drunk he was, how altered his perceptions! No idea, just a fuzzy notion that it involved a vehicle...

Some people unfortunately are able to locomote to other locations when their blood alcohol level indicates they should be falling down drunk. And others get totally fuzzy-minded when their blood alcohol level indicates they should just be buzzed. Alcohol can do terrible things.

[Blink34]

lol SS, great minds think alike you know.

Yes, you two are like lightening-

Staying on the Dane Williams thing for a moment- very similar to Jesse Ross case. he has never been found, but he was also at a convention, and also an intern?

[Blink34]

Seems nobody but local LE buys these cases:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/15835589/detail.html

[MCDRAW]

For those wondering about being so intoxicated that you'd fall into water -- and doubting it -- be aware that when someone is intoxicated, they lose many abilities, including that of self-preservation, and they do things no sensible person would do and that they would not ordinarily do.

Just to note, when reading about the Maura Murray case today, a side story spoke of a young man who was either "hit by a car" or "fell out of a car" the same night Maura got upset after the phone call near the end of her workshift at the dorm (someone was trying to say maybe she hit him and that's why she was crying, what a longshot). Here's the amazing part: HE COULDN'T TELL what had happened! That's how drunk he was, how altered his perceptions! No idea, just a fuzzy notion that it involved a vehicle...

Some people unfortunately are able to locomote to other locations when their blood alcohol level indicates they should be falling down drunk. And others get totally fuzzy-minded when their blood alcohol level indicates they should just be buzzed. Alcohol can do terrible things.


I'm not saying it can't happen. I know alcohol changes your preceptions. If it happened once or twice I would only blame it on the alcohol. There are just too many young males that are ending up drowning after leaving bars. Some of these young men are having to go a long ways before "falling" in the water. If they are so drunk they can't save themselves from drowning, I wonder how they ever made it to the water in the first place.

[SuziQ]

Jeff Geesey had cuts all over him as well. Curiously enough, when Kristi first broke the story she said his was the strangest case and that they would be covering it more. However, we haven't heard anything more about him. Also, Geesey's BAC was so high (.42), that many wonder how he could have even walked down to the river to begin with. A snip and link regarding Jeff Geesey.

http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=817

A bloodhound is used to search for Geesey. After four weeks, the dog hits on a scent that indicates Geesey experienced trauma in several locations. Someone apparently drove him more than a mile from the bar-heavy Third Street area to Niedbalski Bridge. Penny Bell, the bloodhound’s handler, says the dog found Geesey’s blood. “She was licking the pavement. But there was no forensics follow-up.”

La Crosse police chief Ed Kondracki remains skeptical. “Things she said those dogs could do, dogs can’t do,” he says.

On May 22, 1999, 41 days after Geesey vanished, two fishermen found his body. The medical examiner classified the manner of death as undetermined, but unofficially, some police officers consider it a suicide, based on four shallow self-inflicted scars on Geesey’s arms. But Geesey’s angry father says that an overnight hospital visit and a psychological evaluation determined that when Jeff cut himself, he was upset—but not suicidal.

[luthersmama]

Interesting that they already have basically closed the case with some of the info still not in..tox screens. Pretty much what happened in all these cases.

What is the talk around campus? Are people scared, confused, or just taking what they hear from LE as the Truth?


I checked with some friends in Ithaca. FWIW, they are not concerned. This case is getting more press than others in the past, but it isn't an uncommon occurrence in Ithaca for a student to drown or otherwise end up dead after a party.

And I repeat: the case is NOT CLOSED. There just isn't much else to be done while awaiting the tox tests.

[SuziQ]

LOL, MCDRAW, we just posted the same thought about how some of these guys were able to navigate to the river if they were so drunk.

[eve]

I'm not saying it can't happen. I know alcohol changes your preceptions. If it happened once or twice I would only blame it on the alcohol. There are just too many young males that are ending up drowning after leaving bars. Some of these young men are having to go a long ways before "falling" in the water. If they are so drunk they can't save themselves from drowning, I wonder how they ever made it to the water in the first place.

Very true. The numbers are too high, the locations too clustered, the vics too similar. Also, girls drink like sailors, too, why no girls? Doesn't add up.

Eve

[Blink34]

Jeff Geesey had cuts all over him as well. Curiously enough, when Kristi first broke the story she said his was the strangest case and that they would be covering it more. However, we haven't heard anything more about him. Also, Geesey's BAC was so high (.42), that many wonder how he could have even walked down to the river to begin with. A snip and link regarding Jeff Geesey.

http://www.stuffmagazine.com/articles/index.aspx?id=817

A bloodhound is used to search for Geesey. After four weeks, the dog hits on a scent that indicates Geesey experienced trauma in several locations. Someone apparently drove him more than a mile from the bar-heavy Third Street area to Niedbalski Bridge. Penny Bell, the bloodhound’s handler, says the dog found Geesey’s blood. “She was licking the pavement. But there was no forensics follow-up.”

La Crosse police chief Ed Kondracki remains skeptical. “Things she said those dogs could do, dogs can’t do,” he says.

On May 22, 1999, 41 days after Geesey vanished, two fishermen found his body. The medical examiner classified the manner of death as undetermined, but unofficially, some police officers consider it a suicide, based on four shallow self-inflicted scars on Geesey’s arms. But Geesey’s angry father says that an overnight hospital visit and a psychological evaluation determined that when Jeff cut himself, he was upset—but not suicidal.
I think if I'm reading that correctly, his father is admitting he cut himself prior to him going missing- is it stated somewhere else he had other cuts on his bod?

[SuziQ]

I think if I'm reading that correctly, his father is admitting he cut himself prior to him going missing- is it stated somewhere else he had other cuts on his bod?

No, just the fresh ones.

ETA: I mean I've seen no mention of previous cutting scars. Though I'm sure they are in the autopsy.

[SeriouslySearching]

For those wondering about being so intoxicated that you'd fall into water -- and doubting it -- be aware that when someone is intoxicated, they lose many abilities, including that of self-preservation, and they do things no sensible person would do and that they would not ordinarily do.

While everything you say is true, how do you explain that our local bar area is only a few blocks from the Arkansas river and we aren't plucking dead boys out of there every weekend? The bars are on a strip mixed with some college age and others for the older crowd so I have been in the middle of that crowd. I know how drunk the 21 somethings do get...yet they don't walk to the river and jump in. Why? Are you insinuating that somehow the boys in other parts of the country are immune to doing this? Are they more intelligent in their drunken states? I don't think there is ANY difference in the boys, locations, or how drunk they get. The difference is that no one is here tossing them into the river, imo.

Just to note, when reading about the Maura Murray case today, a side story spoke of a young man who was either "hit by a car" or "fell out of a car" the same night Maura got upset after the phone call near the end of her workshift at the dorm (someone was trying to say maybe she hit him and that's why she was crying, what a longshot). Here's the amazing part: HE COULDN'T TELL what had happened! That's how drunk he was, how altered his perceptions! No idea, just a fuzzy notion that it involved a vehicle...

When people drunk or not experience a traumatic event such as being hit with a car or a bad fall, it is not uncommon to have no recollection of the event. Even people who have simple falls have been known to experience "event amnesia". I don't think that would apply here anyway as we know these young men didn't have any physical injuries indicating that kind of trauma, so I don't know why it is being mentioned (?). Alcohol blackouts do happen with frequency, but drownings associated with them don't.

Some people unfortunately are able to locomote to other locations when their blood alcohol level indicates they should be falling down drunk. And others get totally fuzzy-minded when their blood alcohol level indicates they should just be buzzed. Alcohol can do terrible things.

Yes, alcohol can do terrible things. Yes, you do find some people who can still function and not remember. However, I don't think you can say that most of the young men with significantly high levels in the BAC have that kind of tolerance or reaction to alcohol.

Sorry, I just can't buy the theory that so many people get drunk and during a blackout go jump in a river! Doesn't happen here...EVER! If it were happening with regularity in other places, we could understand...but it is not.

[SuziQ]

The teaser for tonights broadcast

http://www.kstp.com/

TONIGHT AT 10:00:
Penn. police find new evidence in an old case that may be connected to the 'Smiley Face Killers'...

[Blink34]

I agree, I think the booze is the conduit for other, not how they are ending up dead or dead in water.

[SeriouslySearching]

I checked with some friends in Ithaca. FWIW, they are not concerned. This case is getting more press than others in the past, but it isn't an uncommon occurrence in Ithaca for a student to drown or otherwise end up dead after a party.
And I repeat: the case is NOT CLOSED. There just isn't much else to be done while awaiting the tox tests.I would like to know more about this particular statement. Could we get a list or some names to follow up on...the drownings and other causes?

I don't think anyone said the case was actually closed, but basically closed. They have really made their determination as to COD and it does sound like, save the tox screen, their minds are already made up. They should not have drawn their conclusions so quickly until all of the facts were in. The problem is exactly that...LE thinks there isn't anything to do except wait. Wrong! They need a more thorough investigation into what happened leading up to the exact time of his death. They need to look at his computer, who he talked to, and other factors which LE has neglected to do in all of the other cases.

[Love_Mama]

ok, call me crazy, but I am going to put this young man as a possible victim in CA, where there has not been any, you will see why-
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/williams-body-death-2005804-police-diego

Dane Chandler Williams
Date Missing: 1/26/08
Date Found 1/29/08

COD: Undetermined
Tox: booze, valium (parents said no prescription) And - quinine? None of which killed him. Had small cuts all over his body
It's mho, that this could be an evolution of our vic profile. He was in water, but found in the alley, dumped there. Let me know your thoughts.

Blink. Interesting you should post this. Dane was a friend of my son.....who is Multimedia Director for Hurley International. Dane was at the Sports show with the rest of the Hurley Crew in San Diego so I was in on this right after Dane went missing. My son was one of the people looking for him, and he said they were even looking in trash bins.

I called Dane's mom right away and told her who I was, and told her that my son was getting a group together to look for him.

My son is 42, and well known in the surfing industry, told me that Dane absolutely did NOT do drugs. Two days later they found him in the alley! I was just devasted. I couldn't belive it. I know the area well, where he was found. I've lived in San Diego for 72 years and I used to live near that area when I was real little. It is now a terrible neighborhood, lots of gangs etc.

My son's first take on who might have killed him is that he might have been picked up by a 'gay' gang. Dane was VERY tall, very handsome, just like a model. I've heard other people say that too. I have no idea... but I do know that is that it would only have taken about 8 to 10 minutes to have taken Dane to the neighborhood where he was found.


Dane would certainly fit into the bright, hard working, nice looking, getting ahead young man as most of these college students were.

By the way......my daughter who is 45 and been a teacher for 14 years...has worked in 3 of the toughest schools in San Diego. She told me today that she remember's seeing grafitti in lots of places near the schools. AND she remember's seeing a number of 'smilie faces"

Hope any of this helps. Maybe I'll get in touch with the two detectives who have been working so long on this case. What do you guy's think!

xxxxxxxooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

[Blink34]

LLM-
First let me say how sorry I am that you have a personal tie to one of these cases.
That is excellent information, for sure. I can tell you that due to my own involvement in a former missing person's case, the detectives are aware of WS and it is a resource for them in cases going forward.

I hope you will update us with any other local info you can, this man and his family deserve answers.

[SeriouslySearching]

The teaser for tonights broadcast

http://www.kstp.com/

TONIGHT AT 10:00:
Penn. police find new evidence in an old case that may be connected to the 'Smiley Face Killers'...Thanks for the heads up, Suzi. :blowkiss: I will be waiting...impatiently as usual. LOL

[shorty0927]

http://media.www.spectatornews.com/media/storage/paper218/news/2008/05/05/News/Detectives.Link.Deaths.Serial.Killers-3364006.shtml


A comment from the story Suzi linked above (with other theories):

"The serial killers mind is in someways not unlike that of our own. Killers want recognition for their "beautiful" work. The problem with this is that being recognized directly prevents them from doing further "work". In this case the smiley face graffiti is the signature.

The detectives mention a link with the word sinsinawa and how that graffiti pointed to the street where they had also murdered. Sadly this is exactly what the serial killer wanted (yes I said this singularly). The one person serial killer is living in or near SinSinawa, WI. This small area of the state is a 4 to 7 hour drive from the majority of these murders.

Any good criminal knows that you never poop in your own backyard, it attracts flies. This serial killer is driving just far enough out of his/her yard to prevent effective cross-jurisdiction co-operation. Even the SinSinawa reference occurred quite outside of the normal killing circle. Of course, this had to. Reveling this word in WI would be almost too risky.

Because this type of murder is so similar to a common type of accident, it will be difficult to catch this killer. Many will simply dismiss all the drownings as accidents even though as many as 10 or 15 are really murders. In the end, all serial killers want to be caught. Wisconsin will soon have another fine serial killer to "brag" about. I just hope they catch the killer before he/she kills again."

[dairybest]

I think the locations of the incidents have to be a major factor.
What other common denominators do the locations have?

I was on here earlier today and I responded to your post with one word (I was in a hurry!). The word was “construction” and it has bothered me ever since.

In one of my previous lives I worked for a cabling contractor and we did jobs all over the place and in all types of businesses. This included colleges, hospitals, realtors’ offices, etc.

One of the most remarkable things about that occupation is that people don’t tend to notice you because you are just the common “Joe” doing a common job. That’s one point.

Another point is that I have worked on some big jobs (like at colleges) for a GC (General Contractor) who has pulled in other specialists and Job Shoppers from God doesn’t even know where. (Job Shoppers, if you aren’t familiar with them, are specialized tradesmen who go where the money is. Their area of specialty might be sheetrocking or HVAC or whatever.) These Job Shoppers can blow in from two states away and be there for a week and the next morning they’re running pipe three states away. It is not uncommon for them (sometimes its one person, sometimes its a group) to arrive in a van or panel truck.

Given the forum that I am posting on, How Disturbing Is This? I mean, just the thought…. So please. Someone. Blow this scenerio full of holes.

I mean, I'm on-board with the "monks" for a localized possibility. But, I can't think of any other possibilities for travelers. Who else gets around yet would blend into any locality?

[ASU2USC]

I was on here earlier today and I responded to your post with one word (I was in a hurry!). The word was “construction” and it has bothered me ever since.


The shopping center in which the bar that Brian Shaffer (OH, 4/1/06)disappeared from was located in was under construction at the time he disappeared. I have read people's speculations on his thread that maybe his body was encased in concrete, but supposedly cadaver dogs have not found anything among the new construction. So there's at least one with a construction connection.

[dairybest]

What makes my stomach churn is that there is always construction. That's why we don't notice it so much.

[SuziQ]

The shopping center in which the bar that Brian Shaffer (OH, 4/1/06)disappeared from was located in was under construction at the time he disappeared. I have read people's speculations on his thread that maybe his body was encased in concrete, but supposedly cadaver dogs have not found anything among the new construction. So there's at least one with a construction connection.

That's right it was. An interesting theory since two cameras did not show him leaving the bar.

[dairybest]

A lot of these Job Shoppers look like regular family men. They work during the day and then a lot of them hit the bars at night before they go to the hotel. Because they move around so much, many of them could make small talk with anyone.

[dairybest]

A student could cross paths with them during the day and then have their guard down when they are out drinking at night. Maybe even accept a ride. God! I want to hurl!

[RR0004]

Luthersmama- Just my 2 cents about Ithaca. From what I've heard, kids think it's great fun to drop into the gorge...and yes, drownings do occur. I have never heard of the pond being the sight of a drowning...maybe I'm wrong.

[DeltaDawn]

Blink. Interesting you should post this. Dane was a friend of my son.....who is Multimedia Director for Hurley International. Dane was at the Sports show with the rest of the Hurley Crew in San Diego so I was in on this right after Dane went missing. My son was one of the people looking for him, and he said they were even looking in trash bins.

I called Dane's mom right away and told her who I was, and told her that my son was getting a group together to look for him.

My son is 42, and well known in the surfing industry, told me that Dane absolutely did NOT do drugs. Two days later they found him in the alley! I was just devasted. I couldn't belive it. I know the area well, where he was found. I've lived in San Diego for 72 years and I used to live near that area when I was real little. It is now a terrible neighborhood, lots of gangs etc.

My son's first take on who might have killed him is that he might have been picked up by a 'gay' gang. Dane was VERY tall, very handsome, just like a model. I've heard other people say that too. I have no idea... but I do know that is that it would only have taken about 8 to 10 minutes to have taken Dane to the neighborhood where he was found.


Dane would certainly fit into the bright, hard working, nice looking, getting ahead young man as most of these college students were.

By the way......my daughter who is 45 and been a teacher for 14 years...has worked in 3 of the toughest schools in San Diego. She told me today that she remember's seeing grafitti in lots of places near the schools. AND she remember's seeing a number of 'smilie faces"

Hope any of this helps. Maybe I'll get in touch with the two detectives who have been working so long on this case. What do you guy's think!

xxxxxxxooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

Mama,

First let me say I am so sorry that you and your family have a friend who is a vic of this awful violence. Secondly..I would at least try to phone or email these 2 detectives...this looks very similar.

Again prayers and blessings to all Dane's family members, coworkers and friends...as well as other WS members trying to see the light at the end of this heinous tunnel.

DD

[Silver~Bell]

Interesting newspaper article touching on the "river serial killer" aspect of a book by a local author about Wisconsin crime. The comments section is very interesting, lots of local people weighing in.

I'm still not impressed with in effect a death a year in LaCrosse, making the "gang" or "serial killer" happy with a kill a year and aging all the time and still keeping it all so quiet and secret -- very unlike them -- and the more I read about LaCrosse and the way the bodies of water are there, and the number of drunken young men walking ALONE who are stopped from walking right into the river by vigilant locals, the less and less I think there's any serial killer link. BUT BUT BUT I do indeed think that there may be copycat killings starting because of the idea being put in people's heads. As for the detectives: Where's the beef?

I hope this link will work, may have to copy and paste it in your browser.

the short story in the lacrosse trib (http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2007/09/06/news/03book0906.txt#READ_COMMENT)

[SuziQ]

I'm still not impressed with in effect a death a year in LaCrosse, making the "gang" or "serial killer" happy with a kill a year and aging all the time and still keeping it all so quiet and secret -- very unlike them -- and the more I read about LaCrosse and the way the bodies of water are there, and the number of drunken young men walking ALONE who are stopped from walking right into the river by vigilant locals, the less and less I think there's any serial killer link.

the short story in the lacrosse trib (http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2007/09/06/news/03book0906.txt#READ_COMMENT)

The serial killer talk actually started because of six similar drownings in two years in Wisconsin not just one a year. There were 3 in 2002, 1 in 2003, 2 in 2004. What vigilant locals are stopping young men from walking into the river? How many?

[SuziQ]

Also, serial killers love to travel, it's their thing. They drive and drive. Gary Hilton is connected to three states so far. God knows how many Joseph Duncan was connected to. So if you include other states, well that would be alot more than one murder a year.

[SuziQ]

In eight states between the years 1994-2001, there were 18 similar drownings. Between 2002-2007, there were 38.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/

ETA: A few of the cases at the above link can easily be atributed to foul play.

[SeriouslySearching]

I think construction workers, AC workers, and everyone in between are suspects at this point until we know more details of what the "dicks" (thanks, Nursebeeme.) have uncovered. What we do know is that Al Cohol is not one of their suspects, but a facilitator or an accomplice.

I put credence into what two decorated NY police Detectives say. If it were two guys from another walk of life, I would think twice. These men are experienced and have the training to investigate such cases. For them, this isn't a whim or a book title.

We have discussed many times here on how you have to find the "missing puzzle piece" for things to fall into place and take you down the right path. I believe it is exactly what has happened for these two men. Upon their investigation into one case...they found the piece and it moved them quickly along the correct path. This enabled them to look for it in other cases. Only they know exactly which piece and I am sure this is information they are witholding for now. It isn't the smiley faces.

I am not going to doubt their conclusions...but I would like to make sure they have all the possible victims brought to the forefront for them to investigate and possibly more suspects. To me, this is where we can be beneficial. They seem to have found the motive, the means, and the rest. We have to insure they have the people in their sites to be included or excluded.

[SuziQ]

There's not enough info to show whether Justin fits the vic profile.

http://www.ketv.com/news/16165935/detail.html

Family members confirmed the body is that of an Atlantic man who was reported missing over the weekend. The man has been identified as Justin Hoeck, 26. Investigators could not confirm if the death was suspicious but said there were no indications of self-inflicted injuries.

Family members of Hoeck said he was last seen leaving a house party alone at about 4 a.m. Saturday.

[SeriouslySearching]

The story doesn't mention water...but common sense looking at that photo tells me there was it being Iowa, too. I would say we should include him and we can exclude him later.

While I realize we are building an almost unrealistic list to most here, but once we know what the detectives are looking for exactly...it is better, imo, to know they exist and follow their stories.

[SuziQ]

Lol, sorry, I should have mentioned the video talks about a culvert and being under a bridge. I'll have to rewatch it. Anyways, here is an earlier article with a pic.

http://www.nonpareilonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19661827&BRD=2703&PAG=461&dept_id=555106&rfi=6

Hoeck was believed to be wearing a black T-shirt, blue jeans and blue and green tennis shoes. He is 5 feet, 9 inches tall, weighs 145 pounds and has short, brown hair and glasses.

I assumed it meant water. Maybe not. I'll put him in the Iowa list. Poor guy

[SeriouslySearching]

In case you missed this post on the other thread...it is #7 and in reference to Tommy Booth and Nick Garza:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2190753#post2190753

[SuziQ]

In case you missed this post on the other thread...it is #7 and in reference to Tommy Booth and Nick Garza:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2190753#post2190753

That is very interesting.

[SeriouslySearching]

I started a new thread for theories! Please feel free to post your own! I would discourage discussion because it will make it a longer read in the end, but left that open.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2190800#post2190800

[SeriouslySearching]

That is very interesting.I think I might know the connection they are talking about so it will be very interesting to find out what they believe it is.

[Silver~Bell]

The serial killer talk actually started because of six similar drownings in two years in Wisconsin not just one a year. There were 3 in 2002, 1 in 2003, 2 in 2004. What vigilant locals are stopping young men from walking into the river? How many?

SuziQ, that's why I put the link, so others can read the article and the comments for themselves and see if they give credence to them. The commentators are noting that at least 40 drunk guys have been prevented from walking into the river, as they have some sort of volunteer organization there. I'm always interested in what people at the scene are saying and observing. There is nothing like actual local knowledge. As an example, I lived in Tucson. Even today, I hear people who know nothing about Tucson say that it "gets cold" in the summer and you "need a sweater" after sundown. But you won't hear anyone with real knowledge of the town say that. Just as in the comments section of quite a few articles about the LaCrosse drownings, locals are painting a VERY different story of the river and its edge than I have read elsewhere.

I'd be interested if any posters here on WS live in LaCrosse and can give their "local" viewpoints as well.

I understood the "serial killers gang" idea to have picked up speed in 2005, and at that time, I believe it was 8 or 9 deaths w/in 9 years, thus the "one a year" remark.

I notice that with every passing day, "victims" from thousands of miles away, in some cases, are being "counted in" and thrown into the mix.

[SuziQ]

I think I might know the connection they are talking about so it will be very interesting to find out what they believe it is.

Yeah, been reading back and scratching my head here. I haven't followed Nick's thread closely. But I know we have some dedicated WS'ers over there.

[SuziQ]

SuziQ, that's why I put the link, so others can read the article and the comments for themselves and see if they give credence to them. The commentators are noting that at least 40 drunk guys have been prevented from walking into the river, as they have some sort of volunteer organization there. I'm always interested in what people at the scene are saying and observing. There is nothing like actual local knowledge. As an example, I lived in Tucson. Even today, I hear people who know nothing about Tucson say that it "gets cold" in the summer and you "need a sweater" after sundown. But you won't hear anyone with real knowledge of the town say that. Just as in the comments section of quite a few articles about the LaCrosse drownings, locals are painting a VERY different story of the river and its edge than I have read elsewhere.

I'd be interested if any posters here on WS live in LaCrosse and can give their "local" viewpoints as well.

I understood the "serial killers gang" idea to have picked up speed in 2005, and at that time, I believe it was 8 or 9 deaths w/in 9 years, thus the "one a year" remark.

I notice that with every passing day, "victims" from thousands of miles away, in some cases, are being "counted in" and thrown into the mix.

Personally, I would take what someone posts in an article comment with a grain of salt. Those posters could be local LE or talking heads and we all know their opinion. Potential victims are being thrown into the mix by us here in the forum, until they can be ruled out.

[Blink34]

are we talking about the smiley?

ETA: sorry wrong thread- I was referring to SS post re link??

[SuziQ]

are we talking about the smiley?

ETA: sorry wrong thread- I was referring to SS post re link??

Lol, I got ya. But I don't know the answer. I guess will find out tomorrow. I'm still waiting for KSTP to update their site with their 10pm story.

[SuziQ]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=10830

Pennsylvania police have found new evidence in a closed drowning case, discovered after 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS’ investigation into the drowning deaths of over 40 other young men.
Police in Ridley Township, PA say they may have hit a major breakthrough for a family searching for answers after the death of their son. (more at link)

Video isn't up yet.

(snip)
The medical examiner is also interested in the recent developments and is taking another look at the autopsy.
"Too many similarities. I have read that a lot of them, either their wallet or their cell phone was missing and that is the only thing that we don't have is his cell phone," Mackay said.
Willoughby considers the case active and is in talks with retired NYPD Det. Kevin Gannon about the evidence and any possible like to the ‘Smiley Face Killers.’

[Blink34]

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S434838.shtml?cat=10830

Pennsylvania police have found new evidence in a closed drowning case, discovered after 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS’ investigation into the drowning deaths of over 40 other young men.
Police in Ridley Township, PA say they may have hit a major breakthrough for a family searching for answers after the death of their son. (more at link)

Video isn't up yet.

(snip)
The medical examiner is also interested in the recent developments and is taking another look at the autopsy.
"Too many similarities. I have read that a lot of them, either their wallet or their cell phone was missing and that is the only thing that we don't have is his cell phone," Mackay said.
Willoughby considers the case active and is in talks with retired NYPD Det. Kevin Gannon about the evidence and any possible like to the ‘Smiley Face Killers.’

yeesh- your quick, thanks..

[RR0004]

Suzi- I totally agree with you about who is commenting.

[SuziQ]

yeesh- your quick, thanks..

I think I wore out that refresh button. I was hoping there would be a little more info. But it's good to know the ME and LE is taking a serious look.

[Blink34]

LOL- it is interesting how some LE automatically takes a second look and is "open", as opposed to others unfortunately- Every family deserves the truth and justice, imo.

[RR0004]

I read in one of the articles that he did have his cell phone on him...and his wallet...and his medication. BTW...need I tell anyone...drinking and epilepsy medication is a BIG no-no.

[Ethann]

As unlikely as it sounds, the Trane theory (or something similar) might very well provide a connection. It would at least explain why other heavy-drinking party schools (such as Univ of Colo or Berkeley) aren't included, or why other schools in the midwest (such as KSU) don't appear to be involved.

I think the locations of the incidents have to be a major factor.
What other common denominators do the locations have?

On a separate note, regarding ckhagen's desire to see the toxicology report, is that something that can be obtained through the FOIA?


The only other thing i could think of as a common denominator is that they may be spelling Smiley face man with the first letters of the cities they commit a crime.This would explain a high concentration of killings around the same cities near trane factories.maybe we should look for a drowning death in a city with a Y

[Blink34]

RR- are you referring to Tony Booth?
I do not believe his cell was recovered, per the me, IIRC

[SuziQ]

The author of the below linked article has some serious anger issues. The way he goes on and on about KSTP's coverage reaks of jealousy IMO. Sgt Garcia is full of carp because I highly doubt the NYPD hands out 100 medals for bravery, two medals of valor and assigns lead protection detail for Mother Theresa, to a detective who was less than star of the realm.

http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/05/kstps-smiley-fa.html
Garcia also says he checked around with police union contacts in New York who, "Never heard of Duarte [one of KSTP's ex-cops] and say that Gannon [the other] had been assigned to the Missing Persons Unit." Neither apparently had exactly been a star of the realm.

Credentials, biography of Kevin Gannon
http://kstp.com/article/stories/S433345.shtml?cat=10830

ETA: if Garcia's investigation into the background of Gannon is any reflection of the investigation into Chris Jenkins. Well no wonder it was screwed up.

[Ethann]

This is from a discussion at another forum

All of those heating/ac companies work on a multitude of products for restaurants, motels, convenience stores, grocery stores, not just Air Conditioners and Heaters in homes. The way you describe your cousin, (arms crossed biting lip, no marks) it sounds like he was frozen first, and then placed in the creek. A drowning person would have debree under their nails right? In two feet of creek?

This would also fit in with the Trane theory.


Also another HVAC technician mentioned he had been to classes in Minneapolis,Lacrosse and Clarksville.It is not unusual for them to constantly updating their skills and familirizing themselves with different products

[SuziQ]

Minneapolis PD just doesn't want to admit they were wrong do they? And they certainly don't like the fact they were proven wrong. It is so easy to see between the lines reading that piece.

http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/05/kstps-smiley-fa.html
"How would you ever know someone had been 'mentally tortured' before they died?," asked Garcia. "I mean, think about it." He added that he prefers the term "suspicious death" rather than "homicide" for the Jenkins case, and that the case might be re-re-classified back to "accidental" were it not that the current classification at least leaves it open to anything that might come along.

[cheko1]

He seriously is going to regret the quote about no foul play absent trauma- what an inept thig to say- watch a CSI for the love of Pete

My good friend knows the Chief of police in Eau Claire. He is one of these guys who nobody is going to tell anything too. He is a know it all.....

Wonder if he'd change his mind if it was one of his kids???

LaCrosse LE isn't none to swift either. They moan & groan if they have to leave the Dept. So what does that tell you about LE in Wi?

[SuziQ]

Comment posted at the below article.

http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/05/kstps-smiley-fa.html

Posted by: Jed Leyland | May 03, 2008 at 06:38 AM (http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/05/kstps-smiley-fa.html#comment-113163412)
My name is Charles Loesch, I was the private investigator who worked on the Chris Jenkins case. To verify, you can contact either of the Jenkins, or Chief of Police, MPD, Tim Dolan, they all have my email address. I know both Kevin and Anthony, both retired NYPD HOMICIDE detectives. I peronally checked out both of these individuals, as did other close assiciates of mine, in law enforcement, locally. Chief Tim Dolan has a copy of Kevin Gannon's resume. Tim Knows the truth about Kevin Gannons background!! (more at link)

[RR0004]

Thomas? Let me see if I can go back and find the article.

[SuziQ]

(snip)
I have the press release photos, which, had MPD officer Garcia, had the common sense to even attempt, the most basic fundimentals of police work,he would have easily found the TRUE background on Gannon. And to say that Garcia's contacts stated that no one in the NYPD union had ever heard of Tony, is another bald-faced lie! Although retired, Tony is still a current member of that Union. In fact, he is personal friends of the president of the Union. Garcia has just publically lied, he has NO credibility!
http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/05/kstps-smiley-fa.html

[RR0004]

"Booth, who bore a tattoo on his right forearm emblazoned with the name “Booth,” was still in possession of his wallet, cell phone and medication, Willoughby said."
- The News Journal

[cheko1]

Minneapolis PD just doesn't want to admit they were wrong do they? And they certainly don't like the fact they were proven wrong. It is so easy to see between the lines reading that piece.

http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/05/kstps-smiley-fa.html
"How would you ever know someone had been 'mentally tortured' before they died?," asked Garcia. "I mean, think about it." He added that he prefers the term "suspicious death" rather than "homicide" for the Jenkins case, and that the case might be re-re-classified back to "accidental" were it not that the current classification at least leaves it open to anything that might come along.


SuziQ thank you for writing what I was thinking!
LE like this just sours my stomach! YUCK!!!!

Thats what is going on nobody wants to admit they made a mistake!

[RR0004]

(Sorry guys- a little out of sink, earlier post meant for Blink.)

Does it surprise you that they would try to discredit these detectives?

[RR0004]

oops...sync...I must be tired!!

[SuziQ]

SuziQ thank you for writing what I was thinking!
LE like this just sours my stomach! YUCK!!!!

Thats what is going on nobody wants to admit they made a mistake!

It was funny when I posted, you had just posted regarding Wi., LE. I don't know how any of them can sleep at night.

[SuziQ]

(Sorry guys- a little out of sink, earlier post meant for Blink.)

Does it surprise you that they would try to discredit these detectives?

Sadly it doesn't. I can't imagine the frustration the families are feeling.

[shorty0927]

...I'd be interested if any posters here on WS live in LaCrosse and can give their "local" viewpoints as well.
...


http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=330037&pagenumber=4

An entry in the comments from the above linked forum:

"I live close to La Crosse and Eau Claire. I am also not far from the twin cities. I have partied numberous times on 3rd street in La Crosse in my younger years. I just can not see how young men are going into the river. We would go up and down on third street all night long. It was not unusual for us to split up to go to different bars. Not once did any of us venture towards the river and I can tell you that some of them men with us were very drunk. The blood alcohol on the men found in the river in La Crosse was high enough that I would suspect they would have been falling asleep or passing out in the bars.

{snip}

Winona, MN is also between La Crosse and Eau Claire and is the home of Winona State University and St Mary's University. Winona has just as many problems with college drinkers. Tt would be just as easy if not easier for college kids to end up in the Mississippi in this town but for some reason this is not happening in Winona. This, in itself, makes me think someone is targeting La Crosse men."

[RR0004]

LE in college towns make their money off of writing tix for (student) violations. I'm sure that's a generalization, but I've heard enough to know it's partly true. Some of the offenses are just plain silly. I just don't think they have the training necessary to conduct these kinds of investigations.

[SuziQ]

Omg, is Garcia for real? I thought arresting murderers was a job for LE?

http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/04/kstps-psycho-ki.html

In Piehl's story(ies), the two former detectives insist they know enough to make an arrest. "So make an arrest," says Garcia. "What are they waiting for? If they think they've got enough, they should bring it forward. As I say, from our conversation, they had no evidence that was new to us or the FBI."

[RR0004]

Very interesting shorty!

[cheko1]

It was funny when I posted, you had just posted regarding Wi., LE. I don't know how any of them can sleep at night.

Wis / Mn close to the same the Twin Cities is only a hr drive from Eau Claire Wi.....I think most of LE just want to collect a pay check at least around here that seems true.

[cheko1]

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?threadid=330037&pagenumber=4

An entry in the comments from the above linked forum:

"I live close to La Crosse and Eau Claire. I am also not far from the twin cities. I have partied numberous times on 3rd street in La Crosse in my younger years. I just can not see how young men are going into the river. We would go up and down on third street all night long. It was not unusual for us to split up to go to different bars. Not once did any of us venture towards the river and I can tell you that some of them men with us were very drunk. The blood alcohol on the men found in the river in La Crosse was high enough that I would suspect they would have been falling asleep or passing out in the bars.

{snip}

Winona, MN is also between La Crosse and Eau Claire and is the home of Winona State University and St Mary's University. Winona has just as many problems with college drinkers. Tt would be just as easy if not easier for college kids to end up in the Mississippi in this town but for some reason this is not happening in Winona. This, in itself, makes me think someone is targeting La Crosse men."





Welcome to WS Shorty & all others new here.

Your so right Shorty it would be easier to get rid of someone at Winona then Eau Claire or LaCrosse. It sure doesn't make any sense, unless these towns are bring targeted.

I have heard that LE in Winona is awesome. That could be the reason the other towns are being targeted / LE sucks.

[cheko1]

Omg, is Garcia for real? I thought arresting murderers was a job for LE?

http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/04/kstps-psycho-ki.html

In Piehl's story(ies), the two former detectives insist they know enough to make an arrest. "So make an arrest," says Garcia. "What are they waiting for? If they think they've got enough, they should bring it forward. As I say, from our conversation, they had no evidence that was new to us or the FBI."



Hubby told me he heard on one of the radio talk thows this morning that Garcia is a pompous ass!

Also remember his dept couldn't tell Chris Jenkins was murdered either.

[SuziQ]

Hubby told me he heard on one of the radio talk thows this morning that Garcia is a pompous ass!

Also remember his dept couldn't tell Chris Jenkins was murdered either.

He certainly sounds like one!

[shadowraiths]

MS-13: Prison Gang Profile

The organization has about 30,000 members, 8,000 - 10,000 of which exist in the US. It is currently the largest gang in many states, including Northern Virginia, and according to user sources is the largest gang in North America, spreading to other nations in the east.

[...]

According to the LA Times, Gang members pay guards to smuggle in cellphones, which members use to consult and communicate with other members in Guatemala, Honduras and the US
Full article: click here (http://www.insideprison.com/prison_gang_profile_MS-13.asp)

[SeriouslySearching]

I had given thought to that gang actually, but I don't think this is their work for some reason. I think for the lack of brutality we have found.

[SeriouslySearching]

Omg, is Garcia for real? I thought arresting murderers was a job for LE?

http://msp.blogs.com/brianlambert/2008/04/kstps-psycho-ki.html

In Piehl's story(ies), the two former detectives insist they know enough to make an arrest. "So make an arrest," says Garcia. "What are they waiting for? If they think they've got enough, they should bring it forward. As I say, from our conversation, they had no evidence that was new to us or the FBI."They cannot do anything without the help of LE in the area...and obviously they don't have it. That is what is so frustrating to them and the reason they brought this to the media. The LE departments have had Just Cause for at least arrests or warrants...and they refuse. It is wrong. It means the local LE will have to swallow their ego and dive deeper when the detectives find things in the long run.

OK...Get this right people!! When you live in a metro area...you are better served. The guidelines are much more strict in hiring everyone. Go out to the underlying areas...and you have a different game. They do have to pass C.L.E.E.T. standards etc. Frankly...a moron can pass their tests. It is contingent on all of their "expertise" that we are relying on with some of these cases. This is what makes me so doubtful about many findings, not to mention...I think a lot of the LE is directly answering to the colleges/cities they are responsible for serving. You do NOT bring up the idea of murderers running free. Just is NOT done! You find every way possible to downplay it...drunk boys is perfect. Nothing has screamed political, but I am. All of these put into a line would be a sacrifice for a politician...now determine which one at what time and find the links that hide the truth.

[dairybest]

I started a new thread for theories! Please feel free to post your own! I would discourage discussion because it will make it a longer read in the end, but left that open.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2190800#post2190800
Thanks for the further organization!

[dairybest]

This is from a discussion at another forum

All of those heating/ac companies work ....

Thanks Ethann. Can you share which forum your quote is from?

~db

[dairybest]

Personally, I would take what someone posts in an article comment with a grain of salt. Those posters could be local LE or talking heads and we all know their opinion. Potential victims are being thrown into the mix by us here in the forum, until they can be ruled out.I absolutely agree with you. To use a relevant but unsettling analogy: No one willing opens a door for a serial killer, they open the door because the person on the other side of the door looks like someone familiar. And of course the FBI and THE killer (if there is one) is monitoring this. Don't many serial killers relish or need the attention? Aren't we giving that to them? JMHO

[dairybest]

Up here, we are always the last to get hip with the latest trends (Thank GOD!)

Check out this link from WPTZ.COM
http://www.wptz.com/news/16169906/detail.html

The headline is: Police: Illegal Drugs May Be Fueling Many Crimes

One small quote from their story:
Graffiti was popping up all over town, and police said they found a gang initiation chamber in an abandoned ice house.

FYI: The definition of "Icehouse"
From Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/icehouse

Date:1687 : a building in which ice is made or stored
(Apparently I lied. SOME things we've been doing for quite some time.)

~db

[Trino]

A Break!!!

PA police find a link in the cases - another smiley face!!!

http://kstp.com/

[SeriouslySearching]

I read some of the posts about the Detectives...I shouldn't have to remind you that people will try to discredit them every chance they get depending on who is pulling the strings in that specific department. This became a political thing before it went public. We are going to see it become more of a political thing as it goes along. Keep your eyes and ears open and you will see it. They are going to come out from even the smallest of places. It has now become CYA time.

I still believe in the Detectives. I don't care what "people" want to say about them. They at least are working and have been...which is so much more than I can say about ANY entity involving these deaths. I do not believe they are doing it for fame or fortune...I believe they are doing it to solve these crimes for the families and for the public. It is a disgrace that so many of our children have suffered death without someone questioning it. These are some of our brightest and most likely to succeed. We are going to miss them and their heirs. SOMEONE has to look it objectively. I think this falls to the Detectives who have been and are coming up with some answers.

[dairybest]

I had one last thought. Does anyone who posts on a forum generally NOT come back and look at their work or any responses to it? Being new to this type of discussion group I am seriously asking this question. No joke.

I had just one recent experience where I posted something someplace else and didn't go back (and won't). The reason for my behavior is because I am not concerned about how it was received or any feedback it might have generated. I simply didn't (JMHO) respect what was happening there so I was done. I expressed myself and have gone on with my life.

Pretty sure I owe someone credit for a quote that went "Art imitates life." ....or something to that effect.

~db

[SeriouslySearching]

A Break!!!

PA police find a link in the cases - another smiley face!!!

http://kstp.com/What I took from that was the ALL of the graffiti not just the smiley face. We have that in the photo thread. (In other words...the PD was not used to seeing ANY graffiti...listen and tell me if I am wrong.)

[SeriouslySearching]

I had one last thought. Does anyone who posts on a forum generally NOT come back and look at their work or any responses to it? Being new to this type of discussion group I am seriously asking this question. No joke.

I had just one recent experience where I posted something someplace else and didn't go back (and won't). The reason for my behavior is because I am not concerned about how it was received or any feedback it might have generated. I simply didn't (JMHO) respect what was happening there so I was done. I expressed myself and have gone on with my life.

Pretty sure I owe someone credit for a quote that went "Art imitates life." ....or something to that effect.

~dbDairy, I know the regulars do our best to address everyone. Yes, we have hit and miss people who post then leave. We don't mean anything by not addressing everyone. Most of us do read everything on a thread before we post. I used to worry about that, but I learned that people cannot respond to every post and carry on an effective thread when it has people posting so often with so many thoughts. It really is nothing personal. Keep posting your thoughts!! (Step up and make yourself heard. We are all here to interact. :))

Life imitates art is a true statement and visa versa.

[dairybest]

In case you missed this post on the other thread...it is #7 and in reference to Tommy Booth and Nick Garza:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2190753#post2190753
I wonder why they didn't go to WCAX in Burlington? I like Andy Potter myself.

[SeriouslySearching]

I don't know about WCAX...on my way. Weird...I found a 41yo man that was an accidental drowning.

They say it was Woodrow Swain, 41, of Newfane. Police are treating his death as an accidental drowning. They are unsure how long Swain's body had been in the water.
http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8272188

What did you want me to see?!

[SeriouslySearching]

OK I did find Priest sex abuse. Was that what you were talking about?
http://www.wcax.com/Global/category.asp?C=18197&nav=menu183_2

Do I think this could be connected? No. However, people here do think it might have something to do with it.

[dairybest]

I don't know about WCAX...on my way. Weird...I found a 41yo man that was an accidental drowning.

They say it was Woodrow Swain, 41, of Newfane. Police are treating his death as an accidental drowning. They are unsure how long Swain's body had been in the water.
http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8272188

What did you want me to see?!
Nothing, but you were smart enough to go and look. I like you. You are real. No offense but I really have to go this time.

Sincerely ~db

Alright, just one more thing. I can't resist. Andy Potter is a Middlebury College grad. And by the way. Stop editing without having it indicate you're doing that - That's creepy!

[SeriouslySearching]

Nothing, but you were smart enough to go and look. I like you. You are real. No offense but I really have to go this time.

Sincerely ~db

Alright, just one more thing. I can't resist. Andy Potter is a Middlebury College grad. And by the way. Stop editing without having it indicate you're doing that - That's creepy!Yes...well..you will get used to it...I rethink what I think after I post. LOL Most are used it...uhm...they probably don't like it anymore than you do tho. Ooops. I should go back to thinking on paper sometimes.

[SeriouslySearching]

OK Where were we?! Are there any more press releases of men who are missing or found dead? Please say no...I don't want anymore. :( This whole thing takes a toll on people. It is the magnitude of what it could be and the realization that they are someone's child every time. It is so hard to do this.

[Blink34]

well said. Thanks for the issue refocus- that's what we are here for:blowkiss:

[shorty0927]

...I shouldn't have to remind you that people will try to discredit them every chance they get depending on who is pulling the strings in that specific department. This became a political thing before it went public.
...

Some LE in smaller cities and towns probably don't like having cops from the "big city" coming into their jurisdiction to try to do their job, either. Of course, we all know that's a stupid way to operate. Big city cops have more experience investigating crimes and as an investigator (of sorts) myself, I appreciate having someone more skilled give me some pointers. It helps me handle the situation better the next time around. But some of these LE folks have a self-inflated image to maintain and can't imagine needing help with anything from anybody. It's unfortunate that some sacrifice the search for truth for defense of their egos.

[Blink34]

I agree, with one caveat, to a degree, LE does need to maintain a degree of de-sensitization. I dont know about you but the last thing I could do is fish young men out of water and have it not affect me.

That being said, the responsibility of LE is to "protect and serve". If they are getting in their own way, they need to have an objective investigation.
Also, there are few towns more than willing to re-look at these cases. I find the LaCross team's comments really irresponsible.

[SuziQ]

You do NOT bring up the idea of murderers running free. Just is NOT done! You find every way possible to downplay it...drunk boys is perfect. Nothing has screamed political, but I am. All of these put into a line would be a sacrifice for a politician...now determine which one at what time and find the links that hide the truth.

And when that doesn't work they start in on publicly attacking the families of the victims. The level of cruelty dished out to these families by local LE and some local talking heads is beyond reason.

An interesting thought about Garcia's comment regarding him wanting to see the MOD on Chris Jenkins autopsy reclassified as a suspicious death. Well it was his department that is adamant that Chris was thrown off a bridge. That would be a homicide not suspicious death. He's a liar and can't manage the simple task of doing a background check on Gannon. Sadly IMO, that is indicative of Mpls PD. I wish Kristi would do a piece on Garcia. I highly doubt this is the only case he has handled this way.

[Blink34]

SQ_
I must have missed something- background check on Gannon? Who? What?

[SuziQ]

I agree, with one caveat, to a degree, LE does need to maintain a degree of de-sensitization. I dont know about you but the last thing I could do is fish young men out of water and have it not affect me.

That being said, the responsibility of LE is to "protect and serve". If they are getting in their own way, they need to have an objective investigation.
Also, there are few towns more than willing to re-look at these cases. I find the LaCross team's comments really irresponsible.

Sadly, that's not true. I grew up in L.A. where I saw that on the black and white's everyday for 25 years and believed it. As Adnoid and other pointed out to me in another thre