Missing in WV (Sodder Family) #3

[christine2448]

Continue General Discussion here please.


Missing in WV (Sodder Family) #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22973)

Missing in WV (Sodder Family) #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35000)

[catsy101]

Ok just so you guys all know, I am not giving up. But here is what a fire cheif sent me on my inquiry. Again, I have NOT dropped the case. We're still awaiting the photograph of potentially what may have been Betty Sodder.

Carla,

Yours is a difficult question to answer for sure without all the facts, but it is not uncommon for very little to remain of the victim of a fire death. So many things contribute to the destruction of items or victims in a fire. The amount of heat generated in a house fire will vary depending upon the contents and construction type. In 1945 the chances are good that this was a wood framed structure and this would often generate a lot of heat. Ultimately, the temperature obtained in a fire will greatly determine the amount of destruction to everything, including people. These days we see different types of body damage to fire victims that range from no burns at all as a result of smoke inhalation, to the extreme almost cremation of the remains. Again, there is no rule of thumb, this is very dependent on the situation. To try and answer your question I would have to say, it is possible that not much of the remains were left. Also remember technology has greatly improved since 1945 in all aspects of firefighting, building construction, and even fire investigation. We may recognize items today that we can define as human remains, whereas in 1945 they may have gone unnoticed or remained covered in debris. Your story is a sad situation that we still see today as my department responded to a fire in Dec 06 with 5 fire deaths including children. I hope this information helped as I tried to answer as best I can without all the facts.

Scott Schill
Fire Chief
Bedington VFD - Martinsburg, WV

[catsy101]

All right. I have some unfortunate news. The magazine I thought it might be in has photos of a ballet class, but that ballet class was located in California. So it cannot be right. I can't believe that George would be that wrong about the photo. I'm really starting to become confused, are we sure he saw what he believed to be his daughter in a magazine? From Walt Whitman school? And are we positive this school was located in New York, NY?

[catsy101]

the reason I ask is because I am not big on conspiracy theories. Please don't try and tell me that every magazine with this photo shoot was destroyed by mobsters, I won't buy it. I mean, and I hate to say this, could it be possible that George was mistaken?

[catsy101]

Granddaughter, the lead you had we heard about some time ago, have you gotten anywhere with it? Do you know anything new? Anything new can help us.

[catsy101]

http://www.jstandard.com/articles/1436/1/Local-woman-takes-%91Pride%92-in-her-childhood (http://www.jstandard.com/articles/1436/1/Local-woman-takes-%91Pride%92-in-her-childhood)

Can somebody find photos related to this children's home? I am beginning to wonder if Betty had been placed in an orphanage if she was taken.

[christine2448]

Here is a webpage on them with photos

http://www.kesh.com/hnoh/PJCH.html#PHOTO


try this, maybe a few

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1T4GWYE_enUS234US234&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Pride+of+Judea+Orphans+Home+Brooklyn&spell=1

[fox1950]

could it be possible that George was mistaken?

:bang:The picture is a mystery to me also. But I know it is out there somewhere. My mind keeps coming up with the fact that there were children in the May 14, 1946, Look Magazine that were art students. Now I that I have moved, I have lost track of my magazine, but I definately want to find it to look again. I know there isn't a mistake as to it being a ballet class, but isn't it odd that there are actually small children in that issue?

[catsy101]

Just sent them a photo of the real Betty Sodder. They can use this to compare it to photos they have there, and can also circulate it to people who stayed there at the time, they can see if they knew or remember her, or even maybe still know her.

[catsy101]

And if she stayed there, they might even circulate it to her.

[catsy101]

Fox, if you can find your magazine, would you please post some of the photos for us to see? I am trying to get a feel of the look of their magazine, the feel of it, etc.

[fox1950]

Fox, if you can find your magazine, would you please post some of the photos for us to see? I am trying to get a feel of the look of their magazine, the feel of it, etc.
I will look for it, but it will be next week before I can get to it. Can't download the picture but could copy and send it to someone who could. My printer and scanner are not set up yet.

[catsy101]

Thank you fox.

[catsy101]

I asked the fire dept about the questions Marian had in her letter I have on my comp. Here are their answers.

Carla,

Again, I do not like to speculate but will try and answer your questions as best I can.

1. There was no screaming from the children. Is this typical?
If the children died in their sleep from smoke inhalation there would most likely be no screaming.

2. We could not smell any burning flesh, something we are sure that with five children we would have smelled. Could a strong wind have totally taken that away?
I was not around in 45 to know for sure, but I have been on many fatal fires in today's type of construction materials. There are so many different fumes and odors present at a fire scene due to the many types of materials that have burned, you may or may not get a distinctive flesh odor, more often than not we just smell burned odors from plastics, paint, household chemicals and things like that.

3. The fire is believed to have begun on the roof, yet we were told that this fire was due to electrical. I would think the fire would have started in the walls had it been due to a fire. What do you think?
I cannot speculate on this one, but I will say electrical wires often traveled in attic areas and inner roof supports in older balloon frame construction. I have also seen lightning start fires on roof areas.

4. We were told as stated above that this fire was due to faulty electrical problems, yet the lights of our home remained lit, even as the fire progressed. Have you ever witnessed such an event, where although it was an electrical fire, the lights stayed on throughout most of the fire? If you have, would you say this is typical?
What I do know is that even in older home wiring, homes were divided into different circuits, often fused in those days, mostly breakers these days. Based on that school of thought it would be possible to have 1 circuit short out or blow the fuse, and the power remain on in a different circuit of the house. Many times we arrive to find the main power is still live during the process of us fighting the fire, that is why we often request the power company to expedite. Sometimes even after the fire burns the main feed wire into, the wire falls to the ground and is still live from that point to the pole, sometimes even arcing or jumping around.

Once again, I can image how bad this experience would have been for the family, and I know they have doubts and or hopes as to the outcome. I realize they are searching for the truth as to what really happened, and I really don't think that can truly be determined at this point over 50 years later. So many things have changed since then, included the training we receive to investigate fires, and DNA and forensic testing. Fire departments in those days, especially rural departments just were not trained at the levels we are today, and they did not have the equipment or resources that we have now. Even with modern technology, and a highly trained and skilled investigator such as a fire marshal, sometimes even today we do not always know for sure exactly what happened on every fire. As a fire chief and almost 30 years of experience I can recognize the pain of the family with unanswered questions. I would remind them that even through we can never go back and change what happened that night, they can take steps to prevent this from happening again by installing smoke detectors and recognize signs of faulty wiring or other hazards. Again I am sorry for your loss.

Scott Schill
Fire Chief
Bedington VFD - Martinsburg, WV

[catsy101]

I have not given up. I want to prove that either the children DID die or DID NOT die in that fire. If they did, I think we need some definite proof, not just a possibility or a probability. If they did not, we need to find out what happened to them, why they never came back, and what they know, IE --- If we find one of them, do they know what happened to their brothers or sisters?

[Granddaughter]

My mom thought you might be interested in the attached document. I have not seen in elsewhere before. We calculated the date as approximately 1951 based on the comment on page 3 that "Maurice would now be 20 years old."

[Teresa Larson]

My mom thought you might be interested in the attached document. I have not seen in elsewhere before. We calculated the date as approximately 1951 based on the comment on page 3 that "Maurice would now be 20 years old."

Thank you for posting this Granddaughter! This confirms some of the things I have been saying all along. The house burned to the ground in about 35 minutes. Which tells you that the fire burned hot and fast BUT not long enough to cremate the children's bodies and even if they died of smoke inhalation there would have been some bones left there after the fire. It also says the Mafia was probably involved I am sure that's the reason the people that investigated this did a very poor job. They knew why and how it happened and weren't about to risk their own lives. I wish we could talk to someone that was living around the area when it happened. This many years later they might be willing to talk.

[catsy101]

Do we have any people in West Virginia? If we do, we could have someone go door to door. Someone who has lived there their whole lives, and was in their teens or early twenties at the time, may still be alive and may be willing to talk. Or families of the people there at the time.

[birdie74]

Hi everyone. This is my 1st post, so I'm sorry it's so long. I just have a lot of questions I've been wanting to ask, mainly about the Cipriani side of the family, and I was hoping maybe Granddaughter could ask her mother about it.

I don't want to sound like I'm accusing anyone, especially part of their family, but since Mr. Sodder went all the way to FL to try to get answers and didn't get them, I think it's worth exploring. If they were involved, it may have been to protect them as others have suggested.

Why was the man who threatened them before the fire upset that Mr. Sodder wouldn't settle his father-in-law's estate? Had there been a falling out between Mrs. Sodder and her family, maybe after her father's death? Were they contesting the will? Why did this man care? Was he an attorney for any of the Ciprianis or connected to them in any other way? Did the Ciprianis have pull with the other leaders of the community? Do you think they had mob ties?

Why were the 2 oldest sons listed twice in the 1930 census, shown living with both the Sodders and Ciprianis? Did they live with their grandparents a while, or did they spend of lot of time staying there?

Could "I love brother Frankie" be referring to to Frank Cipriani, or maybe his son, Frank Jr.? Could one of Jennie's other siblings sent it, and maybe written that as an explanation for not doing anything to stop it or to let her know where their loyalty still lies? Or maybe one of the Cipriani or Sodder kids wrote it about Frank Jr. just playing around.

I would think Mr. Sodder's trip to FL would have strained the relationship with Frank's branch of the family, but I hoped Sylvia could share what the relationship was like overall with the Ciprianis as she grew up. Were they close to her grandmother? What about her aunts and uncles?

I think if they were involved it could explain why the kids never came back, especially if they were convinced the mob killed the rest of their family, and that relatives saved them and changed their identities to protect them.

Am I completely off-track?

[Teresa Larson]

I don't think you are off at all. Anything is possible. You have brought up some interesting questions.

[Granddaughter]

I had promised to post photos of Mom and Mary Ann (Marion) when they were close to the age Louis would have been in the photo that my grandmother received. They are posted on the photo page.

I know you'd like to see the boys (Joe, John, and Ted), but Mom doesn't have any photos of them from that age. The ones we have are much older. We do have a couple of photos of Joe from the military, but you can't see his facial features, just the long, lean shape.

Which brings up the height issue also. FYI - in case you have success and are looking for similarities - my grandmother was very short (maybe 4'10"), and my mom is about 4'11." Marion was about 5'4." Joe was nearly 6' tall. My grandfather, John, and Ted fall somewhere in the middle. There was a wide variance in body size and shape.

[fox1950]

Hi everyone. This is my 1st post, so I'm sorry it's so long. I just have a lot of questions I've been wanting to ask, mainly about the Cipriani side of the family, and I was hoping maybe Granddaughter could ask her mother about it.

I don't want to sound like I'm accusing anyone, especially part of their family, but since Mr. Sodder went all the way to FL to try to get answers and didn't get them, I think it's worth exploring. If they were involved, it may have been to protect them as others have suggested.

Why was the man who threatened them before the fire upset that Mr. Sodder wouldn't settle his father-in-law's estate? Had there been a falling out between Mrs. Sodder and her family, maybe after her father's death? Were they contesting the will? Why did this man care? Was he an attorney for any of the Ciprianis or connected to them in any other way? Did the Ciprianis have pull with the other leaders of the community? Do you think they had mob ties?

Why were the 2 oldest sons listed twice in the 1930 census, shown living with both the Sodders and Ciprianis? Did they live with their grandparents a while, or did they spend of lot of time staying there?

Could "I love brother Frankie" be referring to to Frank Cipriani, or maybe his son, Frank Jr.? Could one of Jennie's other siblings sent it, and maybe written that as an explanation for not doing anything to stop it or to let her know where their loyalty still lies? Or maybe one of the Cipriani or Sodder kids wrote it about Frank Jr. just playing around.

I would think Mr. Sodder's trip to FL would have strained the relationship with Frank's branch of the family, but I hoped Sylvia could share what the relationship was like overall with the Ciprianis as she grew up. Were they close to her grandmother? What about her aunts and uncles?

I think if they were involved it could explain why the kids never came back, especially if they were convinced the mob killed the rest of their family, and that relatives saved them and changed their identities to protect them.

Am I completely off-track? I think you made some very good points.

"I Love Brother Frankie" -Could it mean I love your brother Frankie (Mrs. Sodder's brother). He is the one who was involved in saving us.

90132-35 - This is where I am living in Italy. But I am safe.

"ilil boys"- Maybe a hint that this is really me (Louis). Something that perhaps Mrs. Sodder called him as a little boy.

[birdie74]

I hadn't thought of the possibility of Louis or one of the other kids sending the picture, but that would make sense.

It had been a few months since I first heard of this case and read all the posts and articles, so I couldn't remember all of the details. I had forgotten Janutolo's name, so I reread that part today. No matter which Janutolo it was, neither one was a lawyer; both were businessmen. It seems like he would almost have to be connected to the Ciprianis in some way or have some vested interest in the estate. Could he have wanted to buy property from Joseph Cipriani's estate but couldn't since it hadn't been settled? I know wills and land records are made public, but I wonder what other details of the estate settlement can be read in public documents.

[Rhett]

But why would George and Jennie continue to so publicly and actively look for their children if they thought it was a revenge(mob, family, or whatever) kidnapping? They would know that this is the reason and they wouldn't have been so public about their search for fear of reprisal against them and the children. I think if this was the case they would have never put up two billboards, searched the property for bones, went to New York to find the little girl in the picture, etc. I honestly don't think they ever knew what happened to their children because if it was a mob hit or a family hit they would have went along with believing at least publicly that they died in the fire. If it was a mob hit because George wouldn't pay money to them then George would have known that. He would have been told so that he would start paying money to keep any more bad things from happening to the family. Does this make sense?

[christine2448]

But why would George and Jennie continue to so publicly and actively look for their children if they thought it was a revenge(mob, family, or whatever) kidnapping? They would know that this is the reason and they wouldn't have been so public about their search for fear of reprisal against them and the children. I think if this was the case they would have never put up two billboards, searched the property for bones, went to New York to find the little girl in the picture, etc. I honestly don't think they ever knew what happened to their children because if it was a mob hit or a family hit they would have went along with believing at least publicly that they died in the fire. If it was a mob hit because George wouldn't pay money to them then George would have known that. He would have been told so that he would start paying money to keep any more bad things from happening to the family. Does this make sense?


I think your post makes allota sense, FWIW.

[birdie74]

Rhett, I see what you mean and you made some good points. I don't think the Sodders knew for sure who did it and just tried to follow every lead they got, but they did go public about a lot of their suspicions. The media articles didn't name Mr. Janutolo by name, but it was known of the man who made the threats. Mr. Sodder's trip to Florida was also made public.

Who knows? Like people keep saying, nothing seems to make complete sense. I know there are holes in all the theories I read and come up with myself. It just seems that a lot of people were involved, and it seems to me that Janutolo would probably be one of the main ones behind it after his threat that was so specific.

I just have a feeling that some extended family may have been involved too, but there's no real evidence against them. Maybe they were planning to be part of arson only, and like others suggested, maybe the phone call was supposed to wake them up so they would pay but not die in the fire. Then when the kids were outside, they may have seen too much. Maybe the only options to keep them from talking would be to kill them or take them out of the country.

Again, there are holes. It doesn't seem like they would have believed their captors and stayed gone all these years if that were the case. I'm still baffled!

[fox1950]

Again, there are holes. It doesn't seem like they would have believed their captors and stayed gone all these years if that were the case. I'm still baffled!
You and me, both. I can see the youngest falling into another life and not having too many solid memories of being with their family, but the older ones baffle me also.

I wonder if there is any way possible the Sodder children forum could be cleaned up-it has turned into a porn site-and the porn being blocked so it doesn't come back after it is deleted. I would love for the site to stay up-without the porn.

[bluesky]

First time post. I have been reading for awhile and am a bit confused. How is Ciprianis and Janutolo related to the case? Are they related to the sodders?

[fox1950]

The Ciprianis were Mrs. Sodder's parents. Janotolo was a former business associate of Mr. Sodder and a prominent businessman in the Fayetteville area.

[birdie74]

There were 2 Janutolo cousins who were both prominant businessmen in the area at the time, and it's unclear which of the two it was, but one of them had apparently gotten mad at Mr. Sodder a few months before the fire because Sodder wouldn't buy insurance from him or settle his father-in-law's estate. Jennie's dad, Joseph Cipriani, had died the year before the fire. When Janutolo left, he said that Mr. Sodder would pay for all the bad things he had been saying about Mussolini and his house would burn and his children would pay. This isn't an exact quote. I'm going by memory, but most of the articles about the case mention this incident, just not Janutolo's name.

Jennie had a brother named Frank Cipriani who had moved down to Cortez, Fl sometime in the 30's or early 40's. Mr. Sodder used to travel to follow up any clues he got, and at one point he went down to where Frank was living because he heard that some of the kids were living down there. He tried to get help from the authorities to search for them there, but no one would help him and he wasn't able to find out anything. It's interesting that someone claimed to see the kids not long after the fire with people with a Fl license plate.

[catsy101]

After doing some over the phone interviews and some new searching I have a few questions for granddaughter. One old woman I talked to was in her early twenties living in Fayetteville, WV the night these children, Died/Went Missing. She told me that this mystery really got to her because she had to pass the billboard when it was put up on her way home. Her belief was that anyone would have given the kids back, even the mob, for that much money back than. She said she would hear other people talking about how they believed the kids were dead. But the bodies wouldn't be totally gone either. Than she asked me a question I could not answer, did the Sodder family have a well? I thought about that but it didn't dawn on me, at what she was getting at. Why in the heck would the kids try to play with a well, near a well, etc? She said, "Because you know, if they went to the well to get some water to try and put out the fire, and it was nighttime and dark out, couldn't they have fallen INTO the well? Did anyone check that?". I didn't know what to say. This had NEVER occurred to me. The second thing she said sent chills up my spine, she said, "And if they DIDN'T have a well, and the kids tried to walk down to a stream or something to get water if one had fallen in and was being swept away, were they the kind of children to let it happen, or would they have tried to jump in after the one who got swept away?" Both of these ideas have stuck with me. Granddaughter, you are the only one who might know the answer to this. Did they have a well, and if so was it searched? And if not, did they have a fast moving stream nearby? Was there an emergency fire plan? Back than most people didn't have them, but if the plan was say for the oldest children and the father to go down to the water to fetch some to put out the fire, but the children believed the father and older children were locked in the house, and couldn't get out, surely they would have tried to do it to save them, right? Just some thoughts. I also was called back by that orphanage, and no luck as of yet on the photo they are searching for. But they are still searching. Children's aid society is STILL looking as well. I also found a few TIME magazines and have looked through them but no luck yet on the photo. I am not quitting. Sorry for the delays.

[catsy101]

I have another question. Someone else I spoke with told me that she was only eight when the kids went missing. She said she and other children were terrified of what might have happened, while most of the adults agreed with the fire department that the children had been killed in the fire and their bodies destroyed. Anyway, she said when she was ten she heard some grown-ups talking about "sparing parents" from seeing "that". She said it was so odd she remembers it to this day. She told me it was while she was cleaning the kitchen. She said during the same conversation she had heard them mention in quiet tones the Sodder kids. Still wondering if it was an unofficial thing to hide the bodies from the parents if the bodies were severely mutilated, were like watching a horror movie. Could Fayetteville firemen have taken it upon themselves to hide these bodies? I mean the thing is it sounds as though they were hiding something, thus the bringing out some bones, (much less tramatic to see), bringing out the liver, etc. If they had just buried the bodies after hiding them someplace, we'd never know where the real burial places were, but I would guess that they would be buried not too far from the Sodder's home. Just a thought. Perhaps they thought it was a kindness, but it turned out to be just a cruelty. Sometimes people try to be kind and end up being quite cruel without meaning to.

[catsy101]

It is entirely possible I guess for those children to have been stolen by family from Florida. But WHY? That's what I want to know. Could it be possible that Frank was called by someone from Fayetteville and told the kids were in danger? And would Frank have taken this into his own hands to save the children? Without telling his brother? Another weird thing to this is why in the world would he have set fire to the home if he cared that much? Wouldn't he be frightened that George and Jennie and the older children might have perished in the fire? The only other possibility I could think of is the following scenario:::

George is frightened when he is told his children would pay and his home would burn

So instead of waiting for it to happen he does it himself.

And by this I mean he has his wife and children sitting outside, he has his wife's brother waiting for the kids he tries to send the baby but his wife cannot part with the baby so they make up the excuse that the baby was in the bedroom with Jennie and George

He sets the house ablaze

He runs his ladder far away so he can try and say that it wasn't there to get to the kids

They pour sugar in their own gastanks so the cars won't start and says I couldn't get up to my kids rooms

But if this is the truth why did he search for the kids? To get the mob off of his tail? It just doesn't make sense. Most of this doesn't make sense. And I don't think George would send his kids away and than spend (Literally) the rest of his life searching for them

[Granddaughter]

I'm printing again for Mom. I think I know most of the questions, but before I misspeak, I'll run it all past her.

[catsy101]

Okay just had a thought. Here is another scenario which makes a little more sense than the first one I had.

Jennie's brother has an informant call him and tell him to get to Fayetteville right away, and that the mob is going to hit the house, set it ablaze on Christmas eve, and if this was done, is it possible that he called the house to wake Jennie up, anonymously of course, and maybe even potentially threw something onto the roof to wake them up? If that happened, and say, the smaller kids were playing outside when the brother showed up maybe he told them to come with him. And of course, if they knew or were close to their uncle they would go. Could it be possible that he took them away because he wanted to protect them or was afraid that if the children ever told their parents or someone in Fayetteville it would get back that he was the one who helped to save the children from the mob? That he saved George and Jennie and the kids? By making the phone call, and throwing something on the roof? And one other things, they had a partial tin roof, right? In my letter from the fire dept, he said he has seen fires that started from Lighting hitting the roof. Would a tin roof be like a calling card for lightning to hit it? I'm wondering, would tin attract lightning? And if it did, would it sound like a big bang like what Mrs. Sodder reportedly heard on the roof? Another question about that, if she heard a big boom that sounded like it came from the roof, could that have just been some lightning and thunder? Okay cause if lightning struck the roof, could it be plausible that she heard thunder boom in the sky really loud? That could prove there was a lightning storm outside. You don't need rain to have an all out lightning storm, right? So if there was no stealing of children, etc, it could have just been a freak lightning strike that hit the roof which started the fire.

[bluesky]

Was Janutolo in the mafia? What was the connection with Janutolo and Joseph Cipriani?

[fox1950]

George is frightened when he is told his children would pay and his home would burn

So instead of waiting for it to happen he does it himself.

And by this I mean he has his wife and children sitting outside, he has his wife's brother waiting for the kids he tries to send the baby but his wife cannot part with the baby so they make up the excuse that the baby was But if this is the truth why did he search for the kids? To get the mob off of his tail? It just doesn't make sense. Most of this doesn't make sense. And I don't think George would send his kids away and than spend (Literally) the rest of his life searching for them
Catsy, great to see you back and in full swing! This one theory I seriously doubt because Mr. Sodder laid in the back of a car and had his son drive him around looking for the children in the last year of his life when he was dying of cancer. Mr. Sodder's arm was also cut and the older boys hair was burned trying to save the children.

I trend to go with your theory of the Cipriani family taking the children out of fear that Sodder's children would be killed, as was threatened. The theory of the "well" is interesting too. I am sure there were many in the area during that time period. Good way to get rid of them without anyone ever finding them.

Remember, also Frank Cipriani had a son named Frank, Jr. who was close in age (within a couple of years) of Louis. He could be "Brother Frankie".

Still haven't found the magazine but will keep looking.

This is probably the most confusing case I have ever seen. I think hiding the bodies and never letting the family know for sure that they had burned in the fire would be far worse than letting them see the bodies. At least seeing the bodies, or knowing there were reminds found would have brought closure which never happened while the Sodder's were living.

[fox1950]

Was Janutolo in the mafia? What was the connection with Janutolo and Joseph Cipriani? I don't know if Janutolo was in the mafia. However, both cousins were prominent business men in Fayetteville however. Even today, there is a park named for them (I think they donated the land), in Fayetteville.

I don't know the real connection between Janutolo and the Cipriani's but undoubtly there was since Janutolo was concerned about settling Cipriani's estate.

[Teresa Larson]

Okay just had a thought. Here is another scenario which makes a little more sense than the first one I had.

Jennie's brother has an informant call him and tell him to get to Fayetteville right away, and that the mob is going to hit the house, set it ablaze on Christmas eve, and if this was done, is it possible that he called the house to wake Jennie up, anonymously of course, and maybe even potentially threw something onto the roof to wake them up? If that happened, and say, the smaller kids were playing outside when the brother showed up maybe he told them to come with him. And of course, if they knew or were close to their uncle they would go. Could it be possible that he took them away because he wanted to protect them or was afraid that if the children ever told their parents or someone in Fayetteville it would get back that he was the one who helped to save the children from the mob? That he saved George and Jennie and the kids? By making the phone call, and throwing something on the roof? And one other things, they had a partial tin roof, right? In my letter from the fire dept, he said he has seen fires that started from Lighting hitting the roof. Would a tin roof be like a calling card for lightning to hit it? I'm wondering, would tin attract lightning? And if it did, would it sound like a big bang like what Mrs. Sodder reportedly heard on the roof? Another question about that, if she heard a big boom that sounded like it came from the roof, could that have just been some lightning and thunder? Okay cause if lightning struck the roof, could it be plausible that she heard thunder boom in the sky really loud? That could prove there was a lightning storm outside. You don't need rain to have an all out lightning storm, right? So if there was no stealing of children, etc, it could have just been a freak lightning strike that hit the roof which started the fire.


It was the middle of winter so I highly doubt there was any lightening and even if it did the roof was tin. I don't think anybody would have put sugar in the gas tanks of the truck(s) It was winter and probably below zero so that alone could have kept them from starting and even if they did put sugar in the gas tanks they would have at least started and ran for who knows how long. I also do not buy the theory of Mr Sodder doing this all himself. He searched for those kids until the day he died. The well or creek idea is something to think about.

[Teresa Larson]

I don't know if Janutolo was in the mafia. However, both cousins were prominent business men in Fayetteville however. Even today, there is a park named for them (I think they donated the land), in Fayetteville.

I don't know the real connection between Janutolo and the Cipriani's but undoubtly there was since Janutolo was concerned about setting Cipriani's estate.

Did I miss something? Where did the name Janutolo come from? Who was he? I have never heard of him until now :waitasec:

[birdie74]

In the older articles about this case they mentioned the incident about the man his threats and that Mr. Sodder later learned he was part of the inquest jury that ruled the deaths accidental, but they don't mention the man's name. When Stacy Horn got involved and did her story for NPR, she did include Janutolo's name. I can't remember if it was in her original story or in the info she posted later on her website. After that, there was some discussion about it on this website. I think it was the first thread, but it may have been the second.

I first read about this case last November and became so interested that I spent a few days just reading all the old articles and WS posts about the case. I wanted to post my ideas back then, but had trouble joining with my email at the time. Now that I have joined, I keep posting things about things I read a while back, so I'm sorry I'm confusing people.

Once in a while I think it might have been an accident and they died that night too, because none of the conspiracy stories completely make sense, but then when I go back and read about all of the weird things that happened, it seems there must be more to it. Janutolo is part of it, but also the guy who cut the phone lines and stole the block and tackle, then the ladder being moved. I just can't believe it's all coincidental.

[catsy101]

I agree as stated in the message I really do not believe that George would have looked for the children if he knew darned well where they were. The only thing I can conceive of for doing that if he knew what happened to the kids would be to keep the mob off the kid's trail, but he wouldn't have gone so far. It would have been the biggest most elaborate hoax in history with no end and no real good reasoning behind it. Everything I have heard or read about George suggests he was of a good mind and wasn't a crazy person just searching for no reason. As for a well, it could have been accidental or it could have been a place to hide bodies. Whether it was a mob hit or a kindness by local firefighters to spare the parents remains yet to be seen. Does anyone also know if anytime around this time any bodies were fished out of a local stream? Back than it would have been hard to identify bodies and no one would have thought to ask Mr or Mrs Sodder about it because everyone agreed the kid's bodies were burned in the fire to ashes.

[catsy101]

Were the kids close to their uncle? Would they have gone with him willingly? Would he have been the kind of person not to tell his sister and let her go through this kind of grief? Did George AND Jennie believe her family had the kids, or was it George who insisted they had the kids and went out there? Anyone know?

ALSO have another idea here totally unrelated to the first ---

I wish I could see the back of the photograph of the supposed "Louis Sodder". Ilil Boys. Was It written that way? Or could it have been Ill boys? If it was Ill boys, perhaps he was saying the boys were sick in the house or something of that nature. I would think though that perhaps the numbers were not an area in Italy. Because the brother frankie part doesn't work if Frankie was living in Florida. Unless... Anyone know if Frankie was sent to Italy? Like to a boarding school or to visit family or something? And if he was sent there, perhaps Louis was sent with him? Kind of, until the police got off of the family's trail?

Granddaughter can you find this out please? if Frankie JR was ever sent with his family or to a boarding school or something in Italy? Do you have any contact with that side of the family?

[catsy101]

Also on a side note, any predators in that area? Animals I mean at the time? Anything that would have attacked five small children playing outside in the dark?

[catsy101]

One more idea sorry to bombard everyone but

If it was Ill Boys and Brother Frankie could Louis have been placed in an orphanage? Brother Frankie could be referring to a holy man who ran an orphanage Ill Boys could mean the boys staying there were sick, something very common in large orphanages were sickness ran rampant most of the time, the photo could have been a photo taken, (I read somewhere that a lot of the orphans in New York were photographed and sometime placed in newspapers to find potential parents), and the numbers, well not sure about the numbers. Could be anything with the numbers.

[Teresa Larson]

I agree as stated in the message I really do not believe that George would have looked for the children if he knew darned well where they were. The only thing I can conceive of for doing that if he knew what happened to the kids would be to keep the mob off the kid's trail, but he wouldn't have gone so far. It would have been the biggest most elaborate hoax in history with no end and no real good reasoning behind it. Everything I have heard or read about George suggests he was of a good mind and wasn't a crazy person just searching for no reason. As for a well, it could have been accidental or it could have been a place to hide bodies. Whether it was a mob hit or a kindness by local firefighters to spare the parents remains yet to be seen. Does anyone also know if anytime around this time any bodies were fished out of a local stream? Back than it would have been hard to identify bodies and no one would have thought to ask Mr or Mrs Sodder about it because everyone agreed the kid's bodies were burned in the fire to ashes.

The fire could not have burned hot enough to cremate them to ashes. There would have been bones left behind and there wasn't

[christine2448]

OK...this might be a crazy question..but, I'm askin' anyway.

This happened so long ago. Could we go back now, to this area, and resift, re go through, test, yada yada? Technology has come so far. Or nahhhh. ?

[Teresa Larson]

I am pretty sure they already did this or were going to. I'd have to go back and reread near the beginning of the thread.

[birdie74]

I hope the area is resifted and searched again with modern equipment. It seems like I read on one of the earlier threads that the great-grandson Jonathan was trying to get that done. I think he said the current owners had agreed to it, but I don't remember reading that it ever happened.

I've been rereading the first thread tonight, and the first mention I see of Janutolo is post #347, and then several messages after that give alot of info about both of the Janutolo cousins.

LButler had a lot of interesting posts and I formed some of my opinions from them. In one of them she said that her father had worked for Janutolo and that she thought that Fire Chief Morris had been his bookkeeper. Could this be checked out somehow? I still think Janutolo's connection to the Cipriani estate might be something that could be uncovered somehow. Also, was he involved in selling legitimate life insurance? I still don't know if he was a mobster, but you always see the stereotypical mob guys on TV and in the movies who make innocent small businessmen pay for protection to keep bad things from happening to them, and that's the impression I get from this insurance thing.

Many of the old posts on the original thread keep talking about another forum that has a lot of good info, particularly about the Ciprianis. They keep mentioning someone on it called Lablover who had been trying to join WS. I can't find the forum, so can anyone lead me to it if it's still running?

Catsy, I like your idea about Frank possibly getting a phone call of warning it would happen. It makes more sense to me than most theories.

One last thing: the boys were reminded to do there chores before going to bed, apparently feeding the cows and locking the chicken coop. I remember reading something about Mrs. Sodder finding the lights stiil on and I can't remember if I read the door was open or not, but I guess she found it that way when she was woken by the phone call, so she turned off the lights and went to bed. Does anyone know whether it appeared the chores had been done or not? Were the chickens locked up? In all the commotion of the fire, who knows if anone would have even noticed.

[Teresa Larson]

#155 was posted by granddaughter concerning the dig.

Quote...Mom remains convinced that the excavation done by Oscar Hunter, MD, was thorough and conclusive. He was an impressive man and a national leader in pathology. Anyone who would return to the site now would have no greater credentials than he did. Photos of the excavation are posted on the Sodder children website. http://www.sodderchildren.com (http://www.sodderchildren.com/).

[catsy101]

Wait a second, I just had a thought. Birdie you made me think of it with your post. I remember reading in earlier posts that the curtains were open, the lights were on. So the mother, believing the children had gone to bed had closed them and turned off the lights, figuring the children in their excitement over the toys had forgotten to turn off the lights and close the curtains. That was a job they were supposed to do each night. So... Here's a question. let's say the door was open too. And the kids were outside of the house taking care of the chickens and other outdoor duties. If she closed and locked the door they'd be stuck outside. Um... Would they have banged on the door to be let in? or could it be a possibility that instead they went to say a neighbor's house or something, perhaps someone was still awake in a home nearby if they didn't want to wake their parents.

[catsy101]

GUYS! Check out girl in the magazine page I think I may have found the photo finally!!! Take a look and tell me what you all think! It is a 1947 picture of girls in a ballet class and one of them I think looks a lot like Betty!!! Not good at sizing that up but want to know what you guys think!!!!

Thanks!

[catsy101]

One more idea I was thinking of. I remember distinctly reading that there was NO christmas tree that year. That it was a sad time for the family because the oldest brother was stationed in the armed services somewhere and could not be home for christmas. I remember that Jennie said that a fire could not have started from a tree because there was no christmas tree. Did anyone notice anything missing from the shed? Welp I do know a ladder was missing and was found aways down the road by the telephone line but I am talking about an axe or something. Any possibility the kids thought if they went out and got a tree that the family would be less sad? Or did the kids want a tree? Or something of that nature?

[TallCoolOne]

GUYS! Check out girl in the magazine page I think I may have found the photo finally!!! Take a look and tell me what you all think! It is a 1947 picture of girls in a ballet class and one of them I think looks a lot like Betty!!! Not good at sizing that up but want to know what you guys think!!!!

Thanks!Heh, heh....... me thinks you forgot the link to the picture......

[birdie74]

Catsy, I reread an article last night that did say the lights were on, the shades were up, and the door was opened, so she drew the shades, locked the door, turned off the lights, and went back to bed.

I also wondered if they had been locked out. I doubt they would have wandered off and gotten hurt though because of all the other weird things surrounding the case. I tend to believe the inn keeper who claimed to have seen them later. I also think if bodies had been found anywhere in the region, even way down the river, that it would have been checked out. It didn't take long before the parents started suspecting there was more to the story and hired a PI.

[catsy101]

I didn't forget it tall cool one, it is in the other forum under Sodder, the one that says "george saw a picture..." I put the link there.

[birdie74]

I don't think this detail is too significant, but I should correct myself. I've been saying that Mr. Sodder went to Fl to search for the kids, but he had sent a PI to do it instead. I reread all the old posts this weekend, so hopefully the details will be fresher in my mind now.

I wanted to ask Granddaughter about her great-grandmother Maria Cipriani. I know she was living when her husband passed away in 1944, but I don't see her death certificate on the WV culture website. Did she move away?

Also, one old post mentioned a forum called justice quest. I don't know if that's the one that they kept talking about with lablover who was posting so much good info, but I've searched and don't think it's up anymore. Is there anyone who used to read the other forum who remembers any info listed there but not here? If so, it would be great if you would post it.

[fox1950]

Also, one old post mentioned a forum called justice quest. I don't know if that's the one that they kept talking about with lablover who was posting so much good info, but I've searched and don't think it's up anymore. Is there anyone who used to read the other forum who remembers any info listed there but not here? If so, it would be great if you would post it.Lablover, if I am not mistaken, was on the "Hey Martha board" for the Register Herald, Beckley, WV. If my memory serves be right, he knew alot about Smithers, WV and the goings on during that time. Lablover wanted to get on Websleuths but never could. The Hey Martha board was taken down. I don't think you can read any of the old posts. There is, however, and interesting comment on Stacy Horn's blog (after she did her story). Would take some searching to find it but someone who was familiar with Smithers posted a few interesting "tales" about the town. I think Lablover was living in Arizona at the time he posted.

[birdie74]

Thanks fox.

[Teresa Larson]

Have you read the the download statements on the sodder children's web site? There is a one from Mary Ann the oldest daughter. The missing children were still playing when she fell asleep on the couch the night of the fire. There is also a letter from Mr Sodder and a few others. It's all worth reading.

[catsy101]

I have that downloaded on my computer. Let me see if I can post. Not sure how to do this am not all that comp savvy like my husband is

[birdie74]

Catsy, that does look a lot like Betty. I didn't think it did as much at first until I saw it enlarged. Then I minimized the screen some and viewed it side-by-side with the picture we know is Betty and I saw a lot of similarities.

BTW, since I only live about 4 hrs from the Cortez/Bradenton, Fl area, I'll be taking a couple of days off work soon to go down and see if I can find out anything. I'd like to try to find out what I can that might help me before I go, so I'll put a few questions out there in case anyone can answer them:

When did Frank Cipriani move to FL? (I just know it was sometime between the census of April 1930 and his father's death in October 1944.)

How many kids did he have? Any dates and ages would help too. (I know he had 2 in the 1930 census, Edward, 8, and Joseph, 5. I know there's a Frank Jr too, but he might be one of the same boys who went by a middle name. He's likely to have had many more, and while I'm on my trip I'll look up any births down here, but if anyone in WV has already looked up the WV births or could, that would be great. If not, I'll do it next month when I visit WV.)

When were the children supposedly seen down there, and when did the private investigator go there?

I read one place that there were 3 people who claimed to see them there. Is there any record of who these witnesses were?

I plan to see what I can find out from the local library and courthouse. Maybe the library will have old yearbooks. Also, if I can find out what public or Catholic school they might have attended if they were there long, I'll try to see what I can find out there (if it isn't abandoned for summer). I'll see if I can find the church they attended, too.

If anyone else has ideas of where I can check, please let me know.

[catsy101]

Thanks Fox interesting information. I think it would be great to have someone go there and check it out.

[catsy101]

Okay on a whim I just looked up Sodder in FL in the white pages online Came up with three names and ages all in different areas in FL.

Cynthia Sodder lives in Plant City It states that she is 36 years of age but she is unlisted so no phone number

Ricky Sodder also lives in Plant City It states that he is 51 years of age but he is also unlisted so no phone number

John Sodder lives in Gulf Breeze It states that he is 72 years of age but is also unlisted No Number

Russel Sodder lives in Jacksonville it does not say an age and again unlisted so no number

These are the only sodders it shows in all of FL but might be worth a look. Could the younger ones potentially be the children of some of these children or grandchildren?

[catsy101]

Okay on the other side of the coin, tons of cipriani's live in FL.

I'll get a list

(I think we each need to take some names and start making some phone calls, if granddaughter does not know which ones are family and which aren't. Perhaps, given it has been so long, some of them will talk to us). So let me know who can do what.

Who wants to take the first list?

Here it is:

A Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=1&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
654 Hummingbird Ln
Delray Beach, FL 33445-1882

(561) 498-8471

A Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=2&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
1501 Middle Gulf Dr
Sanibel, FL 33957-6528

(239) 395-0815
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=2&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

A Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=3&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
1501 Middle Gulf Dr
Sanibel, FL 33957-6528

(239) 395-0815
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=3&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

Adolph Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=4&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
8300 Southwind Bay Cir
Fort Myers, FL 33908-6028

(239) 454-5430
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=4&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

Andrea Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=5&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
8515 Bent Creek Way
Naples, FL 34114-9423

(239) 774-2248
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=5&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

Ann Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=6&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

work
5 Harvard Cir
West Palm Bch, FL 33409-1979

(561) 683-3313
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Ann D Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=7&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
5 Harvard Cir
West Palm Beach, FL 33409-1979

(561) 683-3313
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Anthony J Jr & Jacqueline A Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=8&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
723 Espanola Way
Melbourne, FL 32901-4101

(321) 951-4854
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Anthony Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=9&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

work
14510 Black Lake Rd
Odessa, FL 33556-3662

(813) 920-8725
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=9&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

[catsy101]

List 2 who can take it? BTW anyone without a phone number should be sent a letter with a number they can reach one of us at.

Antonio Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=10&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
22100 SW 194th Ave
Miami, FL 33170-1212

(305) 242-9300
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=10&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

Antonio Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=11&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

work
PO Box 0862
Miami, FL 33152-0862

phone number unavailable
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Bruno & Mae Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=12&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
8703 N Packwood Ave
Tampa, FL 33604-1033

(813) 932-0257
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=12&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

Carlo R Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=13&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
16258 SW 44th Ln
Miami, FL 33185-3857

(305) 228-6477
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Carmela I & Joseph T Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=14&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
9064 Thunderbird Dr
Coral Springs, FL 33065-4323

(954) 344-3959
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=14&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

Cecilia Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=15&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
10423 Old Cutler Rd, Apt 205
Cutler Bay, FL 33190-1724

(305) 238-2761
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Charles Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=16&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

work
11135 Quality Dr
Spring Hill, FL 34609-9605

(352) 797-7085
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Choylan & Gabriel A Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=17&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
15670 SW 100th Ave, Apt 10
Miami, FL 33157-1617

(305) 252-8436
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Choylan & Kesa Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=18&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
15670 SW 100th Ave
Miami, FL 33157-1617

(305) 252-8436
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Christian Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=19&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

work
PO Box 0566
Miami, FL 33137-0566

(305) 756-6200
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Christian A Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=20&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
500 NE 26th St, Apt 5D
Miami, FL 33137-5202

phone number unavailable
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Christian J & Lenore M Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=21&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
1020 Blackwater Dr
Wesley Chapel, FL 33543-3950

phone number unavailable
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=21&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

Cinzia Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=22&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
9149 Collins Ave, Apt 208
Surfside, FL 33154-3154

phone number unavailable
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=22&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

[catsy101]

List 3



Donna C Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=35&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
315 Timberwood Ct
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33418-3596

phone number unavailable
Listing Details (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=35&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)
716 Jamestown Blvd
Altamonte Springs, FL 32714-4656

(407) 682-8758
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Daniel J Jr Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=24&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
2144 SE Harlow St
Port Saint Lucie, FL 34952-4990

(772) 337-4783
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Daniel J Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=25&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

home
3521 SW Dellamano St
Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953-5240

phone number unavailable
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Danielle Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=26&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

work
200 S Parker St
Tampa, FL 33606-2308

(813) 221-5788
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David M Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=27&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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234 SW Ridgecrest Dr
Port Saint Lucie, FL 34953-5915

(772) 785-5495
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David & Rachael G Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=28&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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3724 Bellewater Blvd
Riverview, FL 33578-3109

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103 13th Ave, Apt 12
St Pete Beach, FL 33706-4257

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2806 18th St W
Bradenton, FL 34205-6344

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3900 Biscayne Blvd
Miami, FL 33137-3721

(305) 325-2370
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268 Egret Way
Weston, FL 33327-1105

(954) 349-4990
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5440 N Ocean Dr
West Palm Bch, FL 33404-2528

(561) 881-7389
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5440 N Ocean Dr, Ph 301
West Palm Beach, FL 33404-2530

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5344 Woodland Lakes Dr, Apt 224
Palm Beach Gardens, FL 33418-3958

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11615 Pure Pebble Dr
Riverview, FL 33569-9007

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4370 NW 107th Ave, Apt 107-4
Doral, FL 33178-1879

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[catsy101]

List 4

Fay M Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161392334301456579&lower=40&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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13811 Willow Bridge Dr
North Fort Myers, FL 33903-7217

(239) 995-0975
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7900 SW 102nd Pl
Miami, FL 33173-3962

(305) 412-4000
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307 Winfield Way
Nokomis, FL 34275-1978

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3135 37th St E
Palmetto, FL 34221-8806

(941) 722-6099
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39650 Us Highway 19 N
Tarpon Springs, FL 34689-7902

(727) 939-3355
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3201 Collins Ave
Miami Beach, FL 33140-4023

(305) 535-3009
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1167 NW 128th Ct
Miami, FL 33182-2504

(305) 553-9687
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Giuseppe Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161331668702249303&lower=49&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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3201 Collins Ave
Miami Beach, FL 33140-4023

(305) 535-3009
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PO Box 5940
Pinecrest, FL 33256-5940

(904) 247-4993
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PO Box 6411
Sarasota, FL 34230-6411

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Joe Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161331668702249303&lower=57&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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605 Suwannee St
Tallahassee, FL 32399-3601

(850) 414-5203
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[catsy101]

List 5

John L & Bonnie M Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161331668702249303&lower=58&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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1 Seminole Dr
Saint Augustine, FL 32084-1224

(904) 823-8624
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Leonardo Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161331668702249303&lower=68&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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998 Bluewood Ter
Weston, FL 33327-2050

(954) 384-1076
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1710 NW Second Ave
Gainesville, FL 32603-2829

(352) 376-0139
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10010 Skinner Lake Dr
Jacksonville, FL 32246-8408

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Judith A & Charles F Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161331668702249303&lower=65&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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15276 Alba Dr
Brooksville, FL 34604-0729

(352) 796-4349
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182 N Sunset Dr
Mount Dora, FL 32757-5409

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Lorraine Cipriani (http://www.whitepages.com/search/Replay?search_id=61161331668702249303&lower=74&more_info=1&form_mode=opt_b)

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130 NW 108th Ter
Pembroke Pines, FL 33026-4075

(954) 442-0012
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[Teresa Larson]

I would ask Granddaughter about this before starting to make all the phone calls surely her mother knows who her relatives are.

[birdie74]

Thank you Fox and Catsy for looking all of that up! BTW, I think it's kind of funny that we're a fox, cat, and bird. I hope nobody's hungry because I would be at the bottom of that food chain!

The people finder idea helped a lot and some other googling led me to a list of Frank Sr. and Louise's heirs, so that gives me a good idea of who the kids were.

I mainly want to know who they are so that if I find anything that indicates other kids lived with them, I can narrow it down. I also figure if I can find his biological kids in yearbooks or something, I might be able to find the Sodders among other kids there, most likely with different names.

It looks like Edward and Frank Jr. still live there. I know someone needs to question them about they know know of their cousins, but I don't want to do it myself just yet. I know they're probably nice guys, and even if their family was involved, they likely were told the same story as the Sodder kids, but I don't want to take any chances just yet. Maybe by some miracle I'll come across some evidence that proves they were there, and if I do I'll take it to law enforcement and let them ask the questions. After all, a lot of people have been afraid to talk for many years, and we still don't know if the family has mafia connections. I'd rather talk to people who knew the family (like schoolmates) before I talk to the family themselves. If I find nothing useful, I'll probably go back on a later trip and talk directly to family members if I can. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I am a young lady who will be traveling there alone.

[catsy101]

No your not paranoid. You never know. They could be the nicest people in the world or they could turn out the be the exact opposite and may not like it if you bring the kids up. I would be worried too. It's too bad you don't have a friend willing to go with you who loves mysteries.

And your probably right teresa. But there is one thing I would be concerned about and that's if the family got angry with each other because of the accusations, there's a possibility that they just stopped talking and maybe she doesn't know who is who in that part of the family. She would only know Frank and his wife and kids, but she may not know their kids or their kid's kids.

Anyone know, was there bad blood after George went to florida? Or did the Cipriani's understand because of how tragic everything was?

[catsy101]

And don't worry. This cat doesn't chase birds. Just hope the fox feels the same about the cat in this forum. LOL

[birdie74]

Fox, I had downloaded and read the detective mag articles a few months ago. Now I can't find the link. Do you know which posted message has it?

[birdie74]

Actually, I did read the Inside Detective article again over the weekend, but it just says several people claimed to have seen the kids down here so the detective went. I'm pretty sure I read the one you're talking about back in November though, because I felt sure Mr. Sodder had gone there himself. After I didn't find that detail over the last few days though, I figured I must have gotten mixed up in my mind.

[birdie74]

Fox, your post disappeared, too. Is there maybe a problem because of copyrights or something, so maybe the links and quotes from the other magazine had to be removed?

[catsy101]

Okay guys my husband worked on this so let me send it to you. Hold on a sec.

[catsy101]

Just so you know, am unsure as to whether or not they are the same girl. Seem similar but one issue I have that my husband pointed out is one girl, the ballet student, seems to have a turned up nose with bigger nostrils than the Betty photo, also he pointed out that the ballet girl seems to have a chin cleft (or he said it may be just a shadow) while the other girl, Betty, seems to have a more smooth chin in her photo. What do you guys think? They still seem so similar. And the year is right.

[catsy101]

Everyone what do you think?

[birdie74]

Catsy, it's hard to say about the nose and chin since the angle is so different. Nostrils usually seem more flared when we hold our heads high instead of looking down. I think it's possible.

Also, that's a good idea about taking a friend with me. I've been hesitant to tell friends about this because I think they'd think I'm crazy for getting so involved, but who knows. Maybe one of them would enjoy too, so I'll ask.

[catsy101]

Birdie want you to be careful when you go, even if you do have a friend with you. Make sure you tell all your family you are leaving on this trip and ensure they know the day and time you are to return. Odds are this family is very nice and even if they DID have something to do with the children, they might either tell you they can't or won't talk about it or be willing to talk. Or, on the other side of the coin, all I can think about is Robin Williams saying "Donner party of four". So just be careful. You never know. And if your friend comes with you, make sure your friend comes with you to meet that family, and a suggestion here is to call the family first, test the waters, talk to them and than ask them to meet you somewhere public. A local McDonalds or something, during a time when few people will be there, like early morning or later evening. So you can still talk fairly privatly but you are still in a public place where you are safer and you have your friend with you, two is safer than one.

[catsy101]

One more suggestion, "Pepper Spray". You can never be too careful.

[birdie74]

Catsy, thank you for the concern and advice. I really will be careful and won't take chances. I won't be contacting the family on this trip and I probably won't be talking to too many people about it unless I happen to meet them. I will mainly just be checking records to find out more about the family and looking for things like yearbooks and other things that may have pictures from the area from the '40s and '50s. It's likely I won't find too much right now, but if I can learn more about them, maybe I'll do more later. I'll just take it one step at a time so I don't get over my head.

I checked the Manatee Co. Library catalog online, but they don't have any school yearbooks listed.

[catsy101]

Well all I can think is that if she was sent to Italy to be with family, they probably just would have treated her like any other kid. If she was sent for ballet lessons, perhaps the entire ballet class was asked to do the movie. I dunno. It IS a very long shot, but geeze, she looks a LOT like the children, she looks a LOT like Betty, and the two photos side by side look really close. I just dunno it's such a weird case and I know the photo of the supposed Betty has to be out there somewhere it couldn't have just been destroyed and every copy gone. And it is soooooooooooo weird that it wasn't in the magazine that George said it was in. I am beginning to wonder something else too... Hold on let me check on my soup than I will post a scenario.

[catsy101]

So we know that there were five children who went missing. Their ages ranged from 14 all the way down to 5. Would everyone on here agree that if someone tried to take them from the home there would have been some sort of commotion? I think there would have been. I talked to my grandma and she said that a boy was 14 was almost considered a man at the time, and she said the oldest would have fought even if there was a gun and smaller siblings involved. Back than a boy of that age would not have just gone quietly. She also said the smaller siblings would have been harder to control. The 5 year old would not go quietly even if she saw a gun because she wouldn't completely understand, and the kids would have been screaming and crying and making all kinds of noise. Grandma said that the oldest daughter on the couch would have probably heard the commotion and awakened. But there was no commotion. I also asked her about the woman who was going around stealing children to sell on the black market. And grandma told me that it would be very difficult for a woman to take on 5 children of those ages. Plus, she said, the older children, Maurice and Martha Lee would have run away from their new homes the first chance they got to get back home. Which makes sense.
http://websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

[catsy101]

So what does this leave us? With two possibilities, the children left on their own, potentially starting the fire to make it look as though they died in the fire or for some other unknown reason, or it was just bad luck, that the same night the children run off the house catches fire, or that the children did die in the fire and by some freak of nature nothing is left to be found. My grandma told me, and she was born in 1931, that she had seen fires in her youth. If someone died in a burning building she told me there WAS the smell of burning bodies, even in situations where it was only one person who burned up and they lived in a big house. She has also stated that the fire department never would have tried to spare the families and hide the body, that they were actually MORE blunt than today when it came to identifying bodies. She also told me that she has never in all her years of living heard of a fire where something wasn't left. Bone fragments, teeth, SOMETHING. So she told me she didn't buy that not for one bit.

[catsy101]

So she said her conclusions would be that either A. The kids left of their own free will, or B. The kids were tricked into going somewhere with someone or C. The kids went with someone because they knew the person

She said that if the kids were tricked into going somewhere, IE Going to a neighbor's home for say a Christmas party or something that odds are with 5 of them one of them would have escaped and gotten to someone to get help. So she said it didn't make sense. It is difficult also, to get one child to agree to go someplace with you, harder still to get two children to go with you, even harder to get 3 kids to go with you. She also said Maurice, being 14 would probably have stood up to his siblings and said, "No that's a BAD idea we aren't going, and the younger kids would have listened to him. Because that's the way kids were raised back than.

[catsy101]

So that leaves us with two more options. And those options are the kids left of their own free will or the kids went with someone because they knew them.

So if the kids went with someone because they knew them, IE family members or something, the question becomes why? Why would they go with them? She told me that odds are, if say their mother's brother had shown up, Maurice probably still would have thrown a fuss that would have been heard inside the home. Because he would have been the responsible adult and would have most likely insisted they all go into the house and tell the parents where they were headed. If the house was on fire at the time the brother showed up, grandma said that Maurice probably still wouldn't have left. He most likely would have insisted on insuring the parents got out safetly and would have asked the brother to help them.

[catsy101]

Very unlikely he would have allowed the house to burn to the ground without anyone making sure the other siblings and parents got out of the home.

[catsy101]

I asked grandma about an accident. She told me unless the kids were very stupid ALL of them would not have fallen into a well. She said it was possible for one or even two children to fall down a well. She said that it was not very possible or likely for more than two of them to fall down a well. I asked about a stream and she was quick to tell me that again, one or two could have fallen down a well. But not three or four. She said that even in rural West Virginia in the 1940's there would have been a house nearby and one of the children at least would have run there to try and get help for the children who did fall in a well or fall in a fast moving stream or creek. And if a creek was frozen solid and a child or two fell in, the rest would have gone back and tried to get help. So an accident is out.

[catsy101]

So what do we have left?

She said it is possible for jealousy to come into play. If the parents had canceled Christmas, IE - No tree etc because the oldest brother couldn't come home the result could be some unhappy and potentially angry children who were thinking, "They love our older brother more than us because they canceled Christmas for him". But she said even if this were the case, she didn't think they would be willing to leave forever just because of that. So why would they leave forever? She said if they got angry and started doing something stupid and accidentally set the house on fire, they could very well get scared and run off. If you set your house on fire would you want to be there when your parents found out? Probably not. She also told me it would be easy for Maurice to lie and say "I'm 18 and our parents died in a car accident and I am 18 so therefore I can legally take care of my siblings." She told me children as young as 14 could easily get hired for a job, and told me if Maurice and Martha Lee both lied about their ages they could get jobs and work to care for their siblings. She also let me know that it was very easy to get a different name by looking through newspapers and finding death notices for people around the same age as you, walk into the local records office, and request that person's birth certificate, saying you were that person. She said they pretty much trusted you on your word, and would hand it on over.

[catsy101]

So why would they do that, if it wasn't over anger and jealousy over their older brother? Welp she gave me several scenarios as to why the children could have done this, and some of it will not be easy to hear. Granddaughter, if you read this I mean no harm, these are simply scenarios and we have no proof of them. Please take them with a grain of salt and please do not get angry or upset with me. In order to properly look through this case we need to look at every single scenario which could come into play.

[catsy101]

Wonderful and amazing grandparents does not neccessarily mean wonderful and amazing parents.

--- If and please don't get angry I have no proof---
If... The parent's were not so great parents, in the 1940's nobody aired dirty laundry in public. This means no one told people about their problems in the 1940's. If George or one of the older brothers were hurting the girls or the boys or both could they have left due to that? The youngest child to disappear was Betty and we all know Betty was 5 years old. What if someone in the home was doing something to Martha Lee, and than had moved on to Jennie, and one day Betty turned up and said, "So and so touched me here." ? If this happened I am sure that Martha Lee and Jennie would have done anything to prevent it from happening to their little sister as well. And perhaps both Maurice and Louis decided to help them escape. Or they may have been abused as well. My grandma remembered a story about a man who had lived down the block from her when she was only ten. One of her best friends was that man's daughter. He had six children and his wife living with him. She remembered the day when the man's mother took the children with her for good because the daughter had turned up pregnant. Much later she found out that the kids had been raped by the father, and the daughter had turned up pregnant by her own dad. Sick sad but true. She told me the family had seemed totally normal, happy kids, happy wife, happy husband. But that was only through outsiders. Grandma also told me that a lot of times when a person ages, he or she changes and may not do the same things to his grandchildren.

[catsy101]

Okay not that we bite the bullet and look at the worst case let's take er down a notch.

Money troubles--- Grandma said that if the parents were worried about money and even if they talked about it when the kids were out of the room, they could have overheard the discussions. The kids could have believed that by setting the house on fire, calling the parents to ensure they were awake, (which could have been done according to my grandma with a LADDER and something to tap into the phone line, (easily done at the time), their parents could have gotten their home insurance money and been rich. Also, by subtracting 5 children from the mix, the parents would have been much better off financially.

[catsy101]

Or it could have been some sort of game gone wrong. Let's say the kids recieved war toys from the five and dime for christmas. Let's just take that scenario. In fact let's take this up a notch. Grandma said that granaids were used back than, not a pineapple. But she said a granaid looked very similar to a pineapple. Now let's say the daughter, Marian or Marion or how do you spell her name? Anyway if she bought home what she believed was a TOY granaid but it was actually a real granaid and it was thrown and hit the roof, and began a fire and the kids were terrified of their parents finding out what happened... So one of them grabs a ladder and runs to the phone line to make the call to wake up the parents. I am thinking Maurice would have done this he taps into the phone line, disguises his voice to sound like a girl, asks for someone, just to make sure the parents are awake. THan he and the other kids run for the hills figuring they are in trouble. Grandma said they probably would have to go to a new state so no one knew or recognized them. She said back than the cops would have come to the house and Maurice and the others would have been in it deep. So they would know that and be terrified to go home. They could have talked their way onto a bus or a train or something to get out of there as quickly as humanly possible. Grandma said if they showed up at a bus or train station someone probably would have shown pity on them. Picture it Christmas eve they say our parents just died in a car accident/our parents died of an illness or etc, than say We have family who is going to take us in but we need to get to this place, odds are someone would have allowed them to get on the train to get there. Or the bus or whatever.

[catsy101]

This would explain why the kids never showed back up. The kids would never show up if they set the home on fire. They would be too scared. I also asked my grandmother wouldn't they tell their children or grandchildren about what happened? She told me absolutly not! Why? Welp, do people who try drugs tell their kids they did it when they were young? Usually not. Do parents who skipped school to hang out with friends at the beach tell their kids about it? Nope. Would a child who set his house on fire and burned it to the ground tell his or her kids about it? Probably not.

[catsy101]

She said our only hope is that one or more than one of these kids are still alive, and somehow we can track them down through photographs or something and she also said we need to hope that any survivors do NOT have altizmers or something.

[birdie74]

None of these scenarios seem to fit to me. All accounts of the family are that they were loving and happy. No family is perfect, and I know people tend to hide their dirty laundry, but it doesn't seem that way to me when I hear quotes from Sylvia and see the way the parents reacted. I don't believe they would have run away. I don't think they would have been that upset about about Christmas since they had just gotten presents. If that pineapple-like device had been a Christmas gift, the parents and Marion would have known it.

I don't know how big their property was, but if they had cows and chickens, it was probably pretty big and the kids were likely pretty far from the house for a while.

I also don't think kids would necessarily have fought a kidnapper. Whether kids or adults, people have different reactions in different situations, and nobody knows how they will react until in that situation. I think kids were probably even more likely to submit back then when authority was more respected. It's also hard to say how they would react after the fact. I know it's hard to imagine someone staying, but look at the Smart and Hornbeck cases, and we don't know what they were told, like something had happened to the rest of their family.

I can't imagine it being an accident or a runaway situation. When you look at how weird the adults acted in this case (except the parents) I can't imagine it was all a coincidence. There's Janutolo, Fire Chief Morris, the priest, the guy who cut the phone lines and stole the block and tackle, the comments by the prosecutor about having to eat with the ones involved, some indications the Ciprianis could be involved, all the witnesses who are too afraid to talk, possible sightings of them with adults. Could all of this stuff be involved, then it turn out the kids had started the fire and left on their own? I just can't buy it.

[catsy101]

But if the kids were still alive they would probably have come forward by now.

[catsy101]

It's been a long time. A very long time.

[catsy101]

I hope I am wrong. I do. But I just don't know. And if the kids set the fire accidentally, say they even Found the gradnade when they were out doing the chores and two of the kids start fighting over it and one throws it and it lands on the roof, or something of that nature they would be scared enough to run off and not to go back. The police would have come and the kids would have been in very deep trouble, even if it were an accident. In the 1940's even the best parents in the world were stricter than the parents of today, and the kids may have feared their parents hating them or something for setting the fire and burning the house to the ground. And had the kids left and run off, once they started running going back would be even more scary. Kind of like lying. Once you start lying, stopping gets harder and harder.

So say the kids run away from home that night because they are afraid of going to jail for burning the house to the ground, than they are gone, and their parents at first think they are dead. Now they feel like wow, we can't go back because they think we are dead.

Than they hop on a bus and end up in another state. Now they really can't go back, because it's too far away. Say Maurice lies about his age and gets a job now he has responsibilities and can't go back. And Martha gets a job and she has responsibilities. Each excuse leads to another, the kids are in school and doing well, so we can't go back. We are renting a house and we can't go back.

I'll tell you what, I was born in 1978. I am an only child. My dad was definitly no where near as strict as the parents in 1945. But had I accidentally burned down our home, and nearly, (at least in my mind), killed my parents who were in there, I would head for the hills and I would NEVER go back. Because I would be terrified at what my dad's reaction would have been.

[birdie74]

I see your point. I just don't think so many other things would have happened. There is proof a criminal was on their property that night and both cut the phone lines and stole their property. What he stole was used for removing car engines, the same night neither truck would start. I just think the adults were too guilty to put this on the kids.

I figure if the kids survived, they were probably given new identities and afraid to come back, then settled into new lives. I agree it's strange they never did after 62 years and it's a stretch, but to me it's less of a stretch than anything else I can imagine.

[Teresa Larson]

If the kids did some how set the house on fire they might have been scared but they wouldn't have run away. Those kids could have been told anything to keep them from trying to go back home. I also highly doubt they would have rebelled against any adult at least not back then. Children were taught to respect their elders. The Sodders didn't have money problems They owned a trucking company which was a lucrative business back then hauling coal. I believe Mr Sodder was a bull headed man and refused to pay his dues to the Mafia OR Mr J was the one who had the children taken and the house set on fire.

[Teresa Larson]

Just so you know, am unsure as to whether or not they are the same girl. Seem similar but one issue I have that my husband pointed out is one girl, the ballet student, seems to have a turned up nose with bigger nostrils than the Betty photo, also he pointed out that the ballet girl seems to have a chin cleft (or he said it may be just a shadow) while the other girl, Betty, seems to have a more smooth chin in her photo. What do you guys think? They still seem so similar. And the year is right.


I do not think this picture is of Betty. For one the age would be too far off. The girl in the ballerina outfit looks to be 5 years older than Betty. The ONLY thing these 2 have in common is dark hair and eyes.

[catsy101]

I was told later this was from a movie. But I was told the movie was not released in 1947, but in 1951 or sometime about there. A lot of the people on here say they do look a lot alike, same eyes, same face shape, etc. It IS a stretch that it is betty however given the fact that it is unlikely that someone who had Betty would ever allow her to be filmed for fear of being found out.

Something else my grandma told me, to let you guys know. She said, "In rural West Virginia, during the coal mining era, there were many cave-ins." She explained it would have been very easy for someone to take those children and kill them and put their bodies into a mine, and to cave it in. And I have another question, and I wonder where we could find this out. Anyone know if after that fateful Christmas Eve there was a cave in? It could have been the same night, the night after on Christmas day, the day after that... Just a thought. What if the kids went to play in say a coal mine that night and it caved in on them? No one would have known they went there to play if they didn't tell anyone, right?

This could be a crazy comedy of errors, just like the book. Only this was not a comedy, and more of a tragedy. And incidentally, anyone know if George had to have his trucks fixed after that night? Or was it from the cold, that they couldn't get them started up? It should be quite easy to figure it out, because either a couple of days later the trucks started up, and it was just very cold that night, OR George had to have them fixed because something had been done to them, such as a line was cut or pieces of the truck had been taken out.

[catsy101]

So let me just um put this out there for a scenario:::

The kids are outside playing in the snow, or they are outside doing the chores as a group, either way they are all outside right? Now if we work on this timeline things could potentially have happened this way

1. Kids go outside to do something

2. Woman calls the Sodder home probably to see if it sounds like the Sodder's are asleep so she either expects a very groggy sounding person OR she expects no answer at all

3. Mrs Sodder picks up the phone and hangs up believing it to be a prank call

4. Mrs Sodder goes downstairs and sees that the children have not closed the curtains locked the door or turned off the lights so she does all three of these things before heading back to bed

5. The woman who called tells the robber to go over, Mrs Sodder sounded pretty groggy and she couldn't hear laughing or a party going on at the party (after all it was Christmas Eve)

6. The man shows up and starts to get things he wants to steal out of the shed

7. Children hear the commotion and I am guessing perhaps one or more of the younger children would have headed over first, thinking it is Santa Claus, and if they ran off before the older children could grab them the older ones would have followed

8. Not wanting to be caught and surely knowing the kids could and would identify him he perhaps takes the kids with him. He had to have someone helping him because I DO believe Maurice would not have allowed himself and his siblings to be taken without a fight. Back than children WERE taught to be respectful of adults HOWEVER I don't think these kids were stupid either. Kids got abducted back than and killed, only it happened less frequently and usually made HEADLINES back than. So maybe there's a scuffel and maybe there is more than one person stealing.

9. Perhaps at this point the criminal is scared because this has turned from being something simple, stealing, to kidnapping. So instead of making things better he makes them worse. He sets the house on fire, probably figuring everyone will believe the kids died in the fire, can't figure out what to do with the kids, and perhaps the coal mine was the easy way out. Or perhaps he decides to try and make a profit by selling the kids on the black market. Or perhaps he just takes them to New York and tosses them into the first orphanage willing to take them. And if they are/were still alive, I would have no idea as to why they never came forward or tried to get back home. I hate to say it but if it is the honest truth that George and Jennie did not have any "dirty laundry", and the kids were loved and well taken care of, the kids would have tried to get back home. Even with the threat of "We'll hurt your dad or your mom or your other siblings". So if they didn't try and the parents were loving, it may be because they were killed soon after this whole thing took place.

[birdie74]

I mentioned the Smart and Hornbeck cases before. To me, those cases just proved that kidnapping can do some strange things to the psychology of a child, and their actions may not follow what we consider to be common sense after that. Those were two kids who were rescued by miracles, but how many other kids are still out there who were never rescued, but who also never came back voluntarily and just stayed in their traps.

[Rhett]

We have heard of many other children who never came home on Websleuths. Many after so many years believe their families have forgotten them or don't love them.

[Teresa Larson]

Yes I totally agree Those kids could have been told anything or even threatened. Pedophiles do it all of the time to children. They tell them not to say anything to anybody or they'd kill their parents etc. It could have been a case where they were told they died in the fire so they never bothered looking for the rest of their family. It's sad but things like this happen all of the time. Maurice might have put up a fight but if someone grabbed one of his sister's and said I will kill her if you don't come with me He would have went along to keep his sister from getting hurt.

[Kiki]

Yes I totally agree Those kids could have been told anything or even threatened. Pedophiles do it all of the time to children. They tell them not to say anything to anybody or they'd kill their parents etc. It could have been a case where they were told they died in the fire so they never bothered looking for the rest of their family. It's sad but things like this happen all of the time. Maurice might have put up a fight but if someone grabbed one of his sister's and said I will kill her if you don't come with me He would have went along to keep his sister from getting hurt.

Wouldn't anyone who threatened them have long since died? If they were given new identities it's odd that they never tried to trace family who survived the fire or any aunts, uncles and cousins after the person who threatened them died. If they are alive I imagine some (if not all) would have married and had children maybe even grandchildren. It's strange that not one of them would have told their children about the night they lost their family. If my mother or grandmother told me something like this had happpened to them I would do some research and find out as much as I could about it. If they were given new identities I think it would be very strange that not one of them would have told their grandchildren about their past.

[birdie74]

I still think they may have been told by extended family or whoever took them that the mob killed the rest of the family. They could have said that they killed most of them in the fire and then also shot their brother who was not back yet from the war, or something similar. They could have said that you people are out tu kill all of you now, so you have to forget the Sodder name and take on new identities. If you ever tell anyone what happened, you'll be putting the lives of everyone you love in danger.

Any descendents may have been told some other story about their past. Sometimes records are burnt or destroyed, so they could have been told that they were born in some county that had a fire or flood that had destroyed their birth records.

I definitely think they were kidnapped that night because of other strange events, but who knows what happened next. Maybe they were killed soon after that. That would explain why they never came back. It just doesn't feel that way to me though. I may be optimistic in wanting that storybook ending, but I feel like some or all of them are still out there somewhere and will be reunited with their baby sister one day. I hope and pray it's not wishful thinking.

[birdie74]

Shadow205, a few weeks ago you said there was a possibility, and you stressed just a possibility of a new lead. I know you can't get into specifics so I won't ask for that, but I just wondered if it was still a possibility or if it turned out to be a dead end. I understand if you can't answer.

[catsy101]

So I have been thinking about the kids dying in the fire and the more I think the more farfetched it sounds to me. If you think of the events in order it just sounds very strange.

1. Kids claim a car is following them home from school, someone watching the kids.

2. Dad gets in a fight and is told, "your house will burn, your kids will pay"

3. kids are allowed to stay up late to play with toys which doesn't sound like a common occurance at all

4. Sister who always makes sure they go to bed falls asleep on the couch instead

5. Weird phone call

6. Mom gets up and sees kids who always do their chores have not done them

7. Instead of checking on them she does the locking of the doors and the pulling of the shades and turns out the lights and goes back to bed

8. Guy goes and steals their stuff

9. Guy take