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View Full Version : George Sodder saw a picture of a young girl in a magazine that he believed was Betty



christine2448
05-13-2008, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Shadow205
I need help researching and trying to find an old magazine. You will remember mentioned that George Sodder saw a picture of a young girl in a magazine that he beleived was Betty. He traveled to New York in an attempt to identify the girl but was not allowed to see her. Here is the letter that he wrote to the school;

Walt Whitman School
25 East 78th Street
New York, NY
Attn: Miss Louise Krueger, Director

Dear Miss Krueger:

The enclosed picture of several of your students appearing in the May 14, 1946, edition of LOOK magazine is self-explanatory.

For your information, the little girl to which the arrow points quite definitely resembles one of our children who disappeared during the latter part of 1945, and I shall appreciate it greatly if you will, at your earliest convenience, favor me with the following information:

1. Her name
2. The date of her enrollment
3. Any further information you may feel at liberty to supply.

Needless to say, your cooperation in this matter will be more than appreciated.

Yours very truly,

George Sodder
According to Jennie(Granddaughter) it is not known if he received a reply to the letter or not. She thought that she located the correct magazine and purchased it but the picture that she was looking for was not in it. So, evidently there was a mistake on which issue the picture appeared in. Anyone that would like to help could search for anything to do with the school, classmates.com, reunion sites, any place where we might find pictures of students from that time period, any info on "Ms.Krueger".

Any ideas on where we might go with this information?

Jennie also said: My mom remembers the picture showing little girls lined up at a ballet class.
I found a site that lists old issues of Look Magazine and describes some of the topics featured in them:

http://www.pastpaper.com/List-Look40s.htm (http://www.pastpaper.com/List-Look40s.htm)

The February 5, 1946 issue lists "Ballet Fashion Show". Not sure if that is what we are looking for. I find it hard to believe that Mr. Sodder would get the date of the magazine wrong. Perhaps the magazine has pages missing from it?



ALSO
Copied over from #2 thread...

I found this posted in thread one, but I can't get it to open...anyone?


http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Ewvrcbiog/WhatReallyHappenedToChildrena.html (http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Ewvrcbiog/WhatReallyHappenedToChildrena.html)

catsy101
05-13-2008, 05:54 PM
I couldn't get it to open either christine. My husband works with computers for a living in an IT dept at a bank. Going to ask him to take a look at that link tonight. He may not be able to do anything tho, because it may have to be done from the comp of the person who put it up in the first place. But I'll ask him anyway.

drema
05-13-2008, 09:04 PM
I can't open it either. I think looking for the picture is a good idea-for 60 some years it has been part of this mystery. So why not try to prove or disprove it is Betty? Just like the 1968 photo. It would be wonderful if the person would come forward if it is not Louis and say "Hey, that's me when I was 26 but I have no idea who could have sent it to you or why they did that to you." That would end the mystery of who it is, whether it is Louis or not.

TallCoolOne
05-13-2008, 09:48 PM
Well I for one am keeping my fingers crossed (which by the way makes it real challenging to type........ heh, heh) that the photo can be located.

~TCO~ trying to be patient............which I am NOT good at.

Teresa Larson
05-14-2008, 01:27 AM
I am not trying to be negative at all. I am just saying this has already been done by Mr Sodder or a PI he hired. I hope you find out that it was Betty I know any small piece could lead to more information. I do searches for a living so yes I do know all about how one little thing can solve the whole puzzle. :)

Shadow205
05-14-2008, 09:50 AM
I couldn't get it to open either christine. My husband works with computers for a living in an IT dept at a bank. Going to ask him to take a look at that link tonight. He may not be able to do anything tho, because it may have to be done from the comp of the person who put it up in the first place. But I'll ask him anyway.

I couldn't get it to open either and I am the one who posted it :eek:.

catsy101, congrats on making contact with someone willing to help at the Library of Congress! I have thought all along that finding that picture was important. George basically "didn't even get his foot in the door" when he went to the school. They would not give him any info on the identity of the child in the picture. IMHO, Until we can identify that child, then it "could" be Betty. Good job.:clap:

catsy101
05-16-2008, 11:06 AM
I have just recieved this response

16 May 2008
Ms. Hume,

So far, I haven't found the photograph. I looked through the entire May 14, 1946
issue and there was no such image. That definitely confirms what the
granddaughter thought about that specific issue. There was not a May 14, 1948
issue.

I have also used the yearly indexes published by LOOK in an attempt to find the
photo. There were no references to the Walt Whitman School or Louise Krueger in
the years 1946, 1947, or 1948. Since Mr. Sodder knew to write to the Walt
Whitman School and more specifically to Louise Krueger, I would think that those
names would have been mentioned in the article.

I then broadened my search to New York City, schools, and education and still
didn't find the photo. I will still do a bit more looking early next week but
I'm beginning to lose confidence in my ability to find the photo. Do you think
it is possible that the photo appeared in a magazine other than LOOK? That
would make it even harder, if not impossible, to locate the photo, but I suppose it could be a possibility.

Jan Grenci
Reference Specialist

catsy101
05-16-2008, 11:09 AM
Granddaughter, tell me please, do you think the photo could have been in LIFE magazine? They had similar composistion, they each contained mostly photos, etc. And at the time they put a lot of children's photos in their magazine

Granddaughter
05-16-2008, 03:56 PM
Duh ... It took me a while to find this subforum. I just realized that the other thread was closed this morning.

Yes, I do think it's a possibility that ther was some confusion about the magazine. Mom found the letter that my aunt Marion typed, and I will scan it and post it over the weekend after I retrieve it from her.

I also will get some photos of Mom and Marion (Mary Ann) from about the same age as the age progression Louis. In the age progression, the face is too wide and the eyes too small. I think the photos might help you to see why the photo is so credible for Louis.

The subforum is wonderful. Mom will be excited! I'll try to get her to my office to see it over the weekend.

christine2448
05-16-2008, 03:58 PM
The subforum is wonderful. Mom will be excited! I'll try to get her to my office to see it over the weekend.

Hoping to bring more eyes to the case. You/family are always in our thoughts.

fox1950
05-16-2008, 04:03 PM
Granddaughter, Thanks for commenting on the age progression. Can't wait to see your pictures!

You are great Christine.

catsy101
05-16-2008, 10:53 PM
I am going to ask her to look at LIFE for that year and date. And also, for the 1948 issue, because, had there been an issue with the typewriter, the 6 could have ended up looking a lot like the 8 or an 8 could look a lot like a 6. Very similar numbers and lots of probs with those old fashioned typewriters too. Okay, here is why I think it could have been in LIFE magazine.

1. LIFE had almost all pictures, still does.

2. At that time especially, children were photographed a lot for that magazine.

3. LIFE and LOOK both begin with an L.

4. LIFE and LOOK are both single word titled magazines.

5. LIFE and LOOK both have 4 letters.

Easy to mix up.

catsy101
05-16-2008, 11:35 PM
Granddaughter, there is a LIFE magazine with the cover indicating the contents are all about a children's ballet school. The date does NOT coincide.

Jul 26, 1948
Ballet school
Photo: Peter Stackpole

I saw the cover but NOT the inside of the magazine. The cover shows two small girls in ballet costumes doing different poses, but they are definitly not a Betty Sodder lookalike. HOWEVER, I do think this warrants furthur investigation. I am going to send this info to the nice lady at the library of congress and ask her to start on this issue of LIFE.

catsy101
05-16-2008, 11:39 PM
Your search for "Ballet"
from Jan 1946 to Dec 1949 found 2 results
Back to Thumbnails View (http://www.life.com/Life/cover_search/results?coverkeyword=Ballet&startMonth=1&startYear=1946&endMonth=12&endYear=1949&pageNumber=1)
http://img.timeinc.net/Life/covers/1948/cv072648.jpg
Jul 26, 1948
Ballet school
Photo: Peter Stackpole
Back to Thumbnails View (http://www.life.com/Life/cover_search/results?coverkeyword=Ballet&startMonth=1&startYear=1946&endMonth=12&endYear=1949&pageNumber=1)

fox1950
05-17-2008, 12:22 PM
Keep going Catsy!


Interesting read on one person's theory on the Sodder children and the mystery of the picture-

Remember the Innocents (http://search.aol.com/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=8af3377fde36ccc&clickedItemRank=9&userQuery=Searching+for+the+Sodder+children&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fremembertheinnocents.w ordpress.com%2F&title=Remember+the+Innocents&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=9&clickedItemPage=2&clickedItemDescription=WebResults)
A massive search began, the carnival was shut down, and the park emptied of people .... The Sodder Children-missing (1); Timothy Jacob Davison-missing (1) ...
remembertheinnocents.wordpress.com/ - 36k - Similar pages (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=similarPages.search&query=related%3Aremembertheinnocents.wordpress.com %2F&clickedItemPageDescription=similarPages) Check under catagories-Sodder children missing

christine2448
05-19-2008, 01:54 PM
I was born/raised in Philly/So. Jersey....Walt Whitman was a name for a major bridge in Philly...maybe Philadelphia not NY?

catsy101
05-19-2008, 01:57 PM
Some observations, and please I need all of your help.

Could Walt Whitman School have been a ballet school? If it was, it no longer exists. My letter sent to that school at the address came back to me as non-deliverable.

Could this have been an ad to send your child to this ballet class?

catsy101
05-19-2008, 01:58 PM
Good observation. Let's look.

christine2448
05-19-2008, 02:01 PM
Walt Whitman High School, South Huntington

This is a HS in Huntington, NY....not even sure what your looking for..just trying to pitch in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Whitman_High_School,_South_Huntington


Here is a dance school on Walt Whitman Rd in NY
CHILDREN IN COMMACK, NY (http://www.citidexli-commack.com/180.htm)Posey School of Dance Children and Adult Programs in Dance, Art, Music & Drama. .... 895 Walt Whitman Rd. Rt. 110 so of Rt 25, Melville (Hunt). ...

christine2448
05-19-2008, 02:09 PM
I have been searching Walt Whitman, Ballet, Dance, School, Studio, and tons of stuff is coming up.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 02:23 PM
http://images.nypl.org/?id=98F1578&t=w Digital ID: 98F1578

Creator(s):

Wood, Roger -- Photographer


Kirov Ballet School / Roger Wood, photographer.

In:

[Photographic prints of dancers and dance companies.] > Kirov Ballet School.


Created Date:

1958.

Mr. E
05-19-2008, 02:23 PM
Can someone tell again what the story is regarding the picture in the magazine? I looked for that information and couldn't find it in the mountain of information about the case!

catsy101
05-19-2008, 02:24 PM
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/image/small_logo37NYPLDigitalGallery5.gif
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/image/mcurverleft5.gifClose Window (javascript:self.close())http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/image/mcurverright6.gif

Item 7 of 11
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/image/btn_add_to_selc3.gifAdd to Selections (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgselections.cfm?trg=2&flag=3&strucID=181280&imageID=98F1581&word=Ballet%20class&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&num=0&imgs=12&total=11&pos=7)
< Previous (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgdisplaylargemeta.cfm?trg=1&strucID=181278&imageID=98F1579&total=11&num=0&word=Ballet%20class&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=12&pos=6) | Next > (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgdisplaylargemeta.cfm?trg=1&strucID=181374&imageID=98F1678&total=11&num=0&word=Ballet%20class&s=1&notword=&d=&c=&f=&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=12&pos=8)

http://images.nypl.org/?id=98F1581&t=w

catsy101
05-19-2008, 02:26 PM
This is what I found at the New York Public library site.

christine2448
05-19-2008, 02:26 PM
Can someone tell again what the story is regarding the picture in the magazine? I looked for that information and couldn't find it in the mountain of information about the case!

Thanks Ed, I was looking too..and I have just been searching strings to see if anything popped out, LOL!

catsy101
05-19-2008, 02:27 PM
Look at page 7 of the 2nd set of posts
George Sodder believed he saw his daughter's pictures a couple of years or so after the fire. He swore that a little girl in a magazine of a photo of ballet students was Betty Sodder, the youngest child.

christine2448
05-19-2008, 02:31 PM
What do you think if I start a thread about this picture/magazine and copy all posts relating from this thread to there? Would that help?

catsy101
05-19-2008, 03:05 PM
That would definitly be a big help. Thank you Christine.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 04:19 PM
The February 5, 1946 issue lists "Ballet Fashion Show".

I sent this to our friend over at the library of congress. Everyone hope/pray/whatever you do.

NewMom2003
05-19-2008, 04:35 PM
I did a google search of Walt Whitman School and several schools came up.

This discussion forum also came up. Might be worth a try. I can't register as I'm on my work computer.

http://www.gothamcenter.org/discussions/

On another note, I could almost swear that I've heard the term "Walt Whitman School of Dance" mentioned in a movie or something. I'm thinking it may be Beaches, but I could be wrong. I'm racking my brain trying to remember where I've heard it before.

Hope this helps.

Rhett
05-19-2008, 06:02 PM
I think it could have been an ad not a story about the ballet company.

fox1950
05-19-2008, 07:27 PM
I think someone mentioned earlier that they may have been pages missing from the Look Magazine. There were not because I went through the mazazine page by page and all pages were there. I was so excited to find that copy-paid around $14.00 for it and couldn't wait to get it. I was also very disappointed that the article was not in the magazine. I was just thinking-maybe it was a typo on the year. Could it have been May 1948 rather than 1946. I have searched and searched the internet but can't find a thing on it-even requesting people selling old Look magazines to look for it.

There is a person registered on classmates com. (a woman) that went to school there at that time. I do not have a gold account so I can't write to her. Anyone have a gold account?

catsy101
05-19-2008, 07:44 PM
Anyone know how much it costs to get a gold account?

catsy101
05-19-2008, 07:50 PM
Okay everyone I am going to try something

catsy101
05-19-2008, 07:52 PM
I am getting a free membership and am going to place Betty Sodder's photo up as if it is my photo. Perhaps someone will write to us, based off of her photo. Even if it isn't actually Betty, a lookalike and than someone seeing this photo of the other lookalike might be enough to jog someone's memory and they may write to my email.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 07:55 PM
We even have something new to go on now. Walt Whitman of New York, NY was a private school.

fox1950
05-19-2008, 07:58 PM
I think it is $15.00 for 3 months. My problem was they kept billing by credit card every 3 months after until I complained and cancelled.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 08:08 PM
It was not a dance school, therefore this tells me it was not an ad for a dance school, but probably an ad to send your child to this private school.

christine2448
05-19-2008, 08:24 PM
Anyone know how much it costs to get a gold account?


I have one. Have several things, and share with others other things, LOL! We gotta work together! What are we lookin' for?

fox1950
05-19-2008, 08:47 PM
Christine, I am getting ready to email you with the girls name and a picture. Went to Walt Whitman Intermediate 44-48 and graduated from St. Joseph, 1956. She may know something.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 09:03 PM
can you please forward that to me as well? I will start looking for her using her name and whitepages.com

Thanks

fox1950
05-19-2008, 09:04 PM
Christine, I am getting ready to email you with the girls name and a picture. Went to Walt Whitman Intermediate 44-48 and graduated from St. Joseph, 1956. She may know something.
Picture has been sent. Email titled Girl from Walt Whitman School. Yes, Catsy, will forward to you, also. Can you pm me your email address-can't insert picture in pm.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 09:06 PM
Oh sorry
she has a gold account perfect send it to christine

Christine she went to the same school either A. Betty Sodder, or her lookalike went to.

We need to know if she knew her, I think the best way to do this would be to send her a photo of Betty Sodder, and ask her if she knew her. Don't give away the name Betty Sodder, because odds are, her name was changed, I would just send her the photo and say "Did you know this girl?" We are trying to track her down or something like that. Just let her know that family is searching for her. And see what she knows if anything. It could potentially help us a great deal in this case.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 09:07 PM
And yes Fox wouldn't mind having it forwarded to me too. Might find something.

Thanks Fox and Christine. Your both great!

catsy101
05-19-2008, 09:08 PM
Newmom this is a big help! I just went there, registered, and asked if anyone knew of the photo or the school. I also mentioned Louise Kruger in the hopes someone knew of her. THANKS!

Teresa Larson
05-19-2008, 09:25 PM
It was already established years ago that the school did exist because Mr Sodder went there however they wouldn't give him any information about the little girl. So YES the school did exist I am sure it has been closed for many years though.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 10:56 PM
No longer exists Meaning Is no longer in operation and was probably torn down at some point

catsy101
05-19-2008, 10:59 PM
And what school? I mean this is kind of the point. Does granddaughter or her family know what type of school?

I found out that there was a Walt Whitman School in New York city, NY that was a private grade school. But is this the one we are looking for? Or could we be looking for something else? Like a ballet school? Or a boarding school? Or a public grammar school? Or what? Did George ever talk about what happened when he went to that school? Like did he actually get to speak with Ms. Louise Kruger? Or did someone else stop him?

The more knowledge about this school, a name of someone that George spoke to, etc, could be a huge break in this case. We have very little to go on, but I'm certainly not finished.

catsy101
05-19-2008, 11:02 PM
Actually Teresa, here is where the wording comes in. I know I read somewhere that George was not allowed to see the little girl. So does that mean that this little girl was at the school when he got there? Did he perhaps see her on her way into the school, and when he went into the office they stopped him there? Did he catch a glimpse of her, because the wording suggests she was at the school and someone stopped him from speaking with her.

Teresa Larson
05-20-2008, 01:01 AM
Actually Teresa, here is where the wording comes in. I know I read somewhere that George was not allowed to see the little girl. So does that mean that this little girl was at the school when he got there? Did he perhaps see her on her way into the school, and when he went into the office they stopped him there? Did he catch a glimpse of her, because the wording suggests she was at the school and someone stopped him from speaking with her.


If you read the story/posts it says Mr Sodder went to the school but they wouldn't let him see her or give him any information. I have no idea who he spoke to it doesn't say. I don't know if anybody knows who he spoke with either.

catsy101
05-20-2008, 11:46 AM
Our library friend had just written to us. She found the ballet fashion show, and wrote to tell me that this is just another dead end. The fashion show has older teenagers, not children. It says nothing about Walt Whitman school or anything else. She hasn't given up yet, but she is quickly running out of ways to find this photo. Any ideas would be appreciated. I just wrote to her and asked about an ad for either a private school or a ballet school just to see if that helps give her a new angle to search.

catsy101
05-20-2008, 07:14 PM
This is what I got off of the Gotham center discussion. May be a lead. Going to give the school a call tomorrow, because I have unlimited long distance.



There is a Walt Whitman school in Brooklyn, built in the early 30's.
Now it's I.S. 246/ Walt Whitman School.
72 Veronica Place
Brooklyn, NY 11226
(718) 282-5230
It's very close to Erasmus Hall High School.
I know that ballet and many other creative classes were available in the school system in that era, not like today....
I hope this lead helps.
Good luck, catsy!

NewMom2003
05-21-2008, 11:00 AM
That's wonderful that you got a reply on that discussion board. Keeping my fingers crossed that others see it and hopefully it will jog someone's memory.

catsy101
05-21-2008, 12:07 PM
Granddaughter,

With a court order you and your family can search through all of the photos from the schools from that year, and find the one supposedly of Betty Sodder. Finding info now on how you can get that court order.

catsy101
05-21-2008, 12:08 PM
Need to know if your willing to do this granddaughter. May be our only lead on this case.

catsy101
05-21-2008, 12:24 PM
Okay guys I just called that orphanage and they are doing some digging for us. They have my phone number and are going to search for this photo. I really tend to believe the photo may have been from their orphanage, and they are searching for it now. As for the school, granddaughter it's all you. You need to call that school number, and they will help you learn of how to get that court order you need, and once you get it you can sift through all of the photos and find Betty's photo, if it did come from that school.

catsy101
05-21-2008, 12:47 PM
Sent them Betty's photo by email.

fox1950
05-21-2008, 01:16 PM
Granddaughter,

With a court order you and your family can search through all of the photos from the schools from that year, and find the one supposedly of Betty Sodder. Finding info now on how you can get that court order. Catsy, you are great! The only thing with finding a picture of Betty, if she went to that school, is she would have gotten there after school pictures were taken in the fall-since she disappeared in December and probably would not have gone back to school to early January eliminating (sp?)her from the pictures taken that year. The picture of the ballet class appeared in May 46 some five months after her disappearance. One good thing is, however, if she went to the school the following year there should be a picture of her that fall.

Keep going!

catsy101
05-21-2008, 02:08 PM
The thing is that if this photo was placed in a magazine, it could have been taken at any time at all. I hear that LOOK took a lot of kid's photos at the time, to put in their magazine. So did Life and Time. Now, I was told by the orphanage people that if Betty's photo was put into a magazine, they have a lot of people who made scrapbooks who went to that orphanage, and families of people who made scrapbooks of their moms and dads, grandmas and grandpas and kept a lot of the photos, and magazine pictures. We may be in luck if she was put there. I am beginning to think that these children were spread out, if you will. One sent here, one sent there. Or perhaps, and I hate to say this, some of them killed. Why Betty was placed in New York? It's possible that someone maybe fell in love with her. She was only five, and it takes a very hardened person to kill a five year old defenseless child. Perhaps someone fell in love with her, was too scared of jail time or the mob to keep her, and knew this orphanage would take any child and was a good place to send a child.

catsy101
05-21-2008, 02:10 PM
ALSO --- If the magazine put the wrong info on the photo... Welp that would explain the wrong date, the wrong address, etc.

fox1950
05-21-2008, 02:49 PM
JSTOR: Rugg on Rugg: His Theories and His Curriculum (http://search.aol.com/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=e02cc9935c870495&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=Louise+Krueger&#37;2C+Walt+Whitman+School%2C +NY.+1940%27s&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Flinks.jstor.org%2Fsici %3Fsici%3D0362-6784%28197822%298%253A2%253C119%253ARORHTA%253E2.0 .CO%253B2-N&title=JSTOR%3A+Rugg+on+Rugg%3A+His+Theories+and+Hi s+Curriculum&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=1&clickedItemPage=1&clickedItemDescription=WebResults) The revised editions of the textbooks appeared from 1936 to 1940 with some ... in collaboration with Louise Krueger of the Walt Whitman School in New York, ...

Definately the right spelling on Louise Krueger. Floyd Social Studies Textbooks: Indiana State University Lib... (http://search.aol.com/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=b602a1527f52f3ed&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=Louise+Rugg&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Flib.indstate.edu%2Fabo ut%2Funits%2Frbsc%2Ffloyd%2Fsocial.html&title=Floyd+Social+Studies+Textbooks%3A+Indiana+St ate+University+Library&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=1&clickedItemPage=3&clickedItemDescription=WebResults)
Harold O. Rugg and Louise Krueger. Rugg, Harold, and Louise Krueger. NATURE PEOPLES. Man and His Changing Society. The Rugg Social Science Series. ...Harold Rugg | UXL Encyclopedia of World Biography | Find Art... (http://search.aol.com/aol/redir?src=websearch&requestId=99dfe5f2f784f601&clickedItemRank=5&userQuery=Harold+and+Louise+Rugg&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Ffindarticles.com%2Fp%2 Farticles%2Fmi_gx5229%2Fis_2003%2Fai_n19149908&title=%3Cb%3EHarold+Rugg%3C%2Fb%3E+%7C+UXL+Encyclo pedia+of+World+Biography+%7C+Find+Articles+%3Cb%3E ...%3C%2Fb%3E&moduleId=matchingsites.jsp.M&clickedItemPageRanking=5&clickedItemPage=1&clickedItemDescription=WebResults)
Harold Rugg from UXL Encyclopedia of World Biography in Reference provided free ... (Louise Krueger, who had become Rugg&#x0027;s second wife on August 25, ...

catsy101
05-21-2008, 03:13 PM
Great job Fox! I am afraid this woman may be dead. But let's check whitepages anyway. Does it say anything else? Like where she was located at the time?

fox1950
05-21-2008, 03:21 PM
Still looking.

LinetteH
05-21-2008, 03:39 PM
Has anyone looked through this site: http://www.classmates.com/community/school/list?communityId=20359491

christine2448
05-21-2008, 03:41 PM
Has anyone looked through this site: http://www.classmates.com/community/school/list?communityId=20359491


OT...linette, I love your avatar!

LinetteH
05-21-2008, 03:45 PM
OT...linette, I love your avatar!

Thanks! :)

catsy101
05-21-2008, 03:55 PM
christine have you heard from granddaughter lately? She hasn't been on for a while. I just talked to the orphanage again, they listened to the entire story of the Sodder's, and promised to send all of that information to their alumni people. They are going to search using Betty Sodder's photo I sent them, and are also going to look for any children bought together, just in case Betty was with her four siblings when she showed up, are going to check into the name in case it wasn't changed, and are going to look through all of the photos they have of their dance and ballet classes.

fox1950
05-21-2008, 05:44 PM
Seems Louise was married to Rugg:

Wife 1- On September 4, 1912, Rugg married Bertha Miller; they adopted two children.The marriage was the first of three for Rugg, two of which ended in divorce. Wife 2-Louise Krueger, who had become Rugg&#x0027;s second wife on August 25, 1930&#x2014;they had one child&#x2014. Wife 3-Following his retirement in 1951, Rugg continued his study of creativity for the remaining nine years of his life. He died in 1960 at Woodstock, New York, his home since his marriage in 1947 to his third wife, Elizabeth May Howe .

catsy101
05-21-2008, 05:45 PM
Okay guys have a new question

In Inside detective magazine, it states

Mr. Sodder made one trip to New York to investigate the likeness of a picture in a magazine to one of his children. The picture was one of two beginners in a ballet class at the West Side Center of the New York Children's Aid Society.

catsy101
05-21-2008, 05:48 PM
They had one child. This is nothing more than a shot in the dark. Was the child Rugg's? Was it a boy or a girl?

Teresa Larson
05-22-2008, 01:45 AM
Why would somebody kidnap Betty and put her in an orphanage? That doesn't make much sense to me. A Jewish one no less?? I am sorry but I really doubt she was ever there. :twocents:

catsy101
05-22-2008, 11:25 AM
When it comes to the mob, which a lot of people on here believe had something to do with this, the children were most likely taken and killed, and if that is so their bodies would have been hidden. Although the mob is good at making a person disappear, I would think those bodies would have been found because of how many years have gone by. But I have looked and looked through bodies that have been found and can not find any bodies except for the two boys I put on here, that correspond. So my thought is this. It is possible that someone took the girls and couldn't bring themselves to kill these girls. It's very easy to fall in love with a child. But if someone did, I doubt they would have kept these kids for themselves. The mob would find out that the person who was supposed to kill and dispose of the kids suddenly had a kid, of the same age, and description.

catsy101
05-22-2008, 11:26 AM
So what better to do with a child that you can't keep, but you also can't bring yourself to murder? This orphanage took children for any reason from any background. They were famous for taking any child, black, white, red it didn't matter. Any religion was welcome. It didn't matter. They took the kids, and would instruct them in the ways of their religion no matter who they were.

catsy101
05-22-2008, 11:31 AM
Now, add the fact that their orphanage was frequented by magazines, taking photos and putting them into their magazines. They had ballet classes that were instructed by someone from the New York Children's Aide society. Now given these facts, I would like you to look up a magazine entitled "Inside Detective". It has a story about the Sodder children and inside it claims the following and I quote, "Mr. Sodder made one trip to New York to investigate the likeness of a picture in a magazine to one of his children. The picture was one of two beginners in a ballet class at the West Side Center of the New York children's aid society. But he was informed there could be "no question about the child's parentage" and therefore it could not possibly be the child he sought."

catsy101
05-22-2008, 11:34 AM
Given this new information, I believed it imperative for us to track down this orphanage. Even if this child is just a lookalike, it helps us to know that she is not the real Betty Sodder, and if she is still alive and we can talk to her, it will help us immensely. And with the people from this orphanage so willing to help us, I think that this us a great thing. I want to prove one way or another who the child in this photograph is. And incidentally, I sent our library of congress lady the information stating the photo is from the aid society to see what she comes up with if anything.

catsy101
05-22-2008, 11:38 AM
I think I am going to call the children's aid society of New York, and ask them about the photo as well. Any beyond that, in the article in Inside Detective it also states,

"The family recieved a letter from St Louis who said the oldest girl Martha was in a convent there. But that too proved to be a false lead." But isn't it worth another look? Can anyone check into this St Louis lead, and granddaughter do you know anything about this supposed letter from St Louis and this convent?

catsy101
05-22-2008, 11:49 AM
Oh one more thing. I think if the mob had a hand in this, it was done to show their power so to speak. The children disappear, never to be seen again. It might have been enough just to have the children gone, disappeared without a trace, to have George start paying his dues. This could have been about a show of power, look what we can do. Or even perhaps, your kids are gone, now if you want them dead go ahead and don't pay your dues. Sort of a ransom. We'll keep your kids safe as long as you pay us from now on. That could be a reason to dump them anywhere they could, and to split them up so they didn't have any power. It's easy to feel powerless when you are in a strange place, all alone, no money, etc. An orphan too, if they were told their parents and other siblings died in a fire.

catsy101
05-22-2008, 11:50 AM
And the photo supposedly of their son could have been part of that ransom. See? We're keeping your kids safe here is a picture to prove it, keep paying your damned dues.

catsy101
05-22-2008, 12:58 PM
Just called the New York Children's Aid society. We are running into some bad luck. The guy who did all the archives is dying, the photos have all been sent to a new place to be catalouged, and although the lady on the phone said she would do a little digging to see if she can speak with the people who currently have the photos, she didn't sound too enthusiastic or positive about it. She sounded pretty negative and said, "I'll see what I can do". I'm gonna pray.

Granddaughter
05-25-2008, 01:55 PM
As promised, I scanned the carbon copy of the letter my aunt typed for my grandfather to send to Miss Krueger.

fox1950
05-26-2008, 08:56 PM
Ok, the letter was typed January 27, 1947 which was 1 year,1 month, and 2 days after the fire that destroyed the home which gives credence to the fact that this was a 1946 magazine that the picture appeared in.

drema
05-27-2008, 03:50 PM
I have a question for granddaughter to ask her mom-Is she positively sure that this was a ballet class, or could she have dreamed she saw the picture of the ballet class. I know there must have been much talk about it when she was a child, and I was just wondering if perhaps she could have dreamed the part about it being a ballet class.

I was telling my mother a story one day about visiting an aunt's house (which was empty and falling down at the time I was a kid and we kids thought it was ghosty) when she was living there. My mother's reply was "No one has lived in that house since 1948, way before you were born." I was an adult at the time of my dream(?) and I can vividly remember a gathering there with people all around and in my dream I was a little girl.

But it could not have happened. Till this day, it seems so real to me and I still can't believe it was a dream.
Thank you ahead of time.

christine2448
05-27-2008, 04:11 PM
I have been searching every where for LOOK magazines....I finally found some!

Not sure this helps, I am still searching, but wanted to post..

http://www.rubylane.com/shops/bozestates/item/LookM67


ETA, I must be dumb er somethin'....I was searching it wrong before or something...this time I changed the search string and it came right up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_(American_magazine)

christine2448
05-27-2008, 04:30 PM
Stanley Kubrick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Kubrick) was a staff photographer for Look before starting his feature film career. Of the more than 300 assignments Kubrick did for Look from 1946 to 1951, more than 100 are in the Library of Congress collection. Because of a heightened interest in Kubrick's photography, all Look jobs with which he was associated have been cataloged with descriptions focusing on the images that were printed. Other related Kubrick material is located at the Museum of the City of New York. [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_(American_magazine)#cite_note-10)

fox1950
05-27-2008, 06:39 PM
They had one child. This is nothing more than a shot in the dark. Was the child Rugg's? Was it a boy or a girl?Can't find any information on the child-whether it was a boy or girl. Still looking for the Look Magazine.

Teresa Larson
05-28-2008, 02:48 AM
[quote=drema;2252905]I have a question for granddaughter to ask her mom-Is she positively sure that this was a ballet class, or could she have dreamed she saw the picture of the ballet class. I know there must have been much talk about it when she was a child, and I was just wondering if perhaps she could have dreamed the part about it being a ballet class.

I was telling my mother a story one day about visiting an aunt's house (which was empty and falling down at the time I was a kid and we kids thought it was ghosty) when she was living there. My mother's reply was "No one has lived in that house since 1948, way before you were born." I was an adult at the time of my dream(?) and I can vividly remember a gathering there with people all around and in my dream I was a little girl.

But it could not have happened. Till this day, it seems so real to me and I still can't believe it was a dream.
Thank you ahead of time.[/quote


The Sodder's saw the picture. That's the reason George went to the school. Many other people saw the picture. Nobody just dreamed of seeing it.

Rhett
05-29-2008, 03:26 PM
Teresa, I think what drema meant was: was she sure it was a BALLET class and not a picture of chilren in some other activity. Also, if this was a mob hit to make George pay his dues why would he try and find the children. What I mean is wouldn't he be afraid to bring them home again? Also, wouldn't it have perhaps cost more for the mob to take care of these children than what they would get from George in the long run? Also, if it was a mob hit to get George to pay his dues he would have known it.

drema
05-29-2008, 06:14 PM
Teresa, I think what drema meant was: was she sure it was a BALLET class and not a picture of chilren in some other activity. Thank you Rhett. That is exactly what I meant. There is no doubt that a picture existed and Mr. Sodder went to NY. What I meant was since there was a picture in the magazine of May 14, 1946, Look Magazine that were of children in an art class could the part about the ballet class be something that got mixed up. I meant nothing more, nothing less.

I think, no matter how crazy some ideas may seem, it is all a part of getting this puzzle solved. And everyones ideas are important. Someday, someone will come up with the extra way it happened, whether it can be proven or not. I had a pretty good idea as to what happened when I started on this board, but now my opinions have changed altogether because of all the information others have contributed to this board. Whether I agree with all or think some are off the wall, they have given me food for thought.

Where's Catsy?

missmuffit
05-30-2008, 07:43 PM
The address listed by Mr. Sodder in the letter: 25 East 78th Street New York, NY, do we know if this address is really in New York or is it located in Brooklyn? If I read my map correctly the address that is located in NY, NY (Manhattan) is only like 5 miles from Little Italy. I plugged in a restaurant that I know is in Little Italy and those were the miles listed. So my question is could this school that Mr. Sodder was looking at in or very close to Little Italy?

My other question is has anyone looked at the yearbooks that are kept in the library's for Betty's picture? All school yearbooks are usually kept even if the school is no longer in existent and are usually at the library's. The family would not need a court order to look at yearbooks so this might be a faster outlet for them to use.

Mel ~

catsy101
06-02-2008, 12:58 PM
Sorry been away for a while but I am back

mysteriew
06-02-2008, 01:35 PM
I don't know if this will help. But I found a little background on the Louise Krueger of Walt Whitman School.


http://books.google.com/books?id=ibw2kj5joKMC&pg=PA303&lpg=PA303&dq=&#37;22Walt+Whitman+School%22+%22Louise+Krueger%22&source=web&ots=GXwzF-2tpF&sig=jgAi62MLcbM2LJcNaElhAaDDaeI&hl=en

It looks like she and her husband wrote several books on education. I think it is the Walt Whitman Elementary School.


LOL, I also found a Louise Krueger on a current teachers list (in Phoenix) ,but that couldn't be the same Louise Krueger could it?
http://ww2.chandler.k12.az.us/santan-k8/teachers/default.asp

A history of the building and address of 25 East 78th Street
New York, NY

The school is vaguely mentioned.

It was later sold to a school and a cultural organization.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/realestate/19scap.html

My guess is that Look did an article on the "school and cultural organization"

mysteriew
06-02-2008, 03:12 PM
There is more info online about Louise Krueger's husband Harold Rugg than there is about Louise. Harold wrote several books about education and he wrote several textbooks. Louise collaborated on many of the books. He proposed changes in the teaching methods, allowing for more individual expression by the children and addressing their individual needs. He was backed by some big money names including the Rockefellers. Early on his methods were well received, but later the educational community backed off on him and his methods- there were comments like subversive and controversial. Along with the differences in the teaching methods, Rugg was believed to be proposing social changes thru the children's education.

By the time the Sodder children disappeared, Harold and Louise had divorced. I could find where he went and what he did after the divorce, but not what Louise was doing. My "guess" is that most likely if she became director of a school, she was most likely using the methods that she and Harold wrote about. So any creativity would be a big thing. So we may be looking at the wrong focus for the article. Possibly the article was more about the fact that in the new school she was continuing the teaching methods that she and Rugg wrote about instead of being about the children? At the address that is listed, she had to have had some big backing too, it is a mansion.

Stella
06-02-2008, 11:51 PM
Maybe someone at NYC's Little Red School House would know something about Louise Krueger. It's a well known "progressive" school that has been around since 1921.

becksterh
06-07-2008, 01:12 AM
I googled the address on the letter and found this article in the NYT about the building.

By CHRISTOPHER GRAY (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=CHRISTOPHER GRAY&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=CHRISTOPHER GRAY&inline=nyt-per)
Published: August 19, 2007

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/realestate/19scap.html?_r=1&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/W/White,%20Stanford&oref=slogin (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/realestate/19scap.html?_r=1&n=Top/Reference/Times&#37;20Topics/People/W/White,%20Stanford&oref=slogin)

A small quote near the end of the article does show that the building was a school. Mayor Bloomburg now owns the building, and there are pictures of it shown.

Mrs. Fish died later that year, and Mr. Fish continued to live in the East 78th Street house until his death in 1923. It was later sold to a school and a cultural organization.

anthrobones
06-10-2008, 01:02 AM
Louise Krueger must have existed, since she published this in 1950, in association with the school?

http://www.amazon.com/Creating-fragments-music-young-children/dp/B0007H7DLK/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213074014&sr=1-9

anthrobones
06-10-2008, 01:05 AM
A google search also associated her with this article:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1179674

catsy101
06-13-2008, 01:04 PM
Has said she has been forced to quit. She could find no photos that resembled the girl and/or what we were looking for. I am sorry to say. The next thing I have been working on is some new info and questions I have. Hoping granddaughter can answer these for me. Cross your fingers, I have done some over the phone interviews and may have a new piece of information or two.

catsy101
06-15-2008, 02:36 AM
Need some help sending photos for all to see how do I do this?

catsy101
06-15-2008, 02:39 AM
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/michaelwalford/2007/08/21/bellissima_7.jpg

Is this the pic? The girl on the far right looks like Betty I think.

Teresa Larson
06-16-2008, 12:52 AM
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/michaelwalford/2007/08/21/bellissima_7.jpg

Is this the pic? The girl on the far right looks like Betty I think.

Where did you find this picture and what year was it taken??

Shadow205
06-16-2008, 07:51 AM
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/michaelwalford/2007/08/21/bellissima_7.jpg

Is this the pic? The girl on the far right looks like Betty I think.

http://images91.imikimi.com/image/images_full/77642991.jpg (http://imikimi.org/link/link_through/77642991)

Here is the picture enlarged

catsy101
06-16-2008, 12:54 PM
On the website it said 1947 but I couldn't find any more info about it. IE - Who took it or where it was taken. I looked under GOOGLE for photo 1947 children

NewMom2003
06-16-2008, 04:33 PM
That is an amazing find catsy. I hope this is the pic.

catsy101
06-16-2008, 07:43 PM
Okay guys, what do you think? Can someone please contact granddaughter? We need her mom to look at this photo. She actually saw it and would probably know if this is the right one or not.

missmuffit
06-17-2008, 03:41 AM
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/michaelwalford/2007/08/21/bellissima_7.jpg

Is this the pic? The girl on the far right looks like Betty I think.

I went to the link and then searched through the blog for Michael Walford who is the one who posted the picture. I am pretty sure that the picture of the little girls at ballet class is from the 1951 Italian film titled Bellissima.

Here is the link of where the blogger talks about the movie, director, and the political nature of the film. Once you pull up the link you will need to scroll down to the blog that is dated 21 August 2007. http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/michaelwalford/?num=10&start=150

Hope this helps.

MM ~

missmuffit
06-17-2008, 04:04 AM
Here is another link to a review of the movie: http://www.iicnewdelhi.esteri.it/IIC_NewDelhi/webform/SchedaEvento.aspx?id=30

The little girl who plays the wanna be dancer is Tina Apicella. The picture is more of a close up. I got to thinking after I made the first post that if little Betty was indeed taken and then shipped back to Italy this "could" be her however I think that that theory is way, way out in left field. Especially since the letter that Mr. Sodder sent to the school in NYC was in 1947 and the film was most likely filmed closer to its release date which was 1951 and the film was filmed in Italy.

I hate to sound pessimistic but I honestly feel that the little girl is this Italian actress named Tina Apicella and is not little Betty Sodder.

MM ~

Kiki
06-17-2008, 05:07 AM
If she is not Betty Sodder the resemblance is uncanny. The little girl certainly has Betty's eyes. I checked the internet movie database. If someone has IMDB Pro they may be able to contect Tina Apicella and ask her. I looked at Bellissima's entry in Wikipedia and I didn't see a resemblance between the girl on the poster and Betty Sodder.

catsy101
06-17-2008, 11:32 AM
That is really odd. Granddaughter is having her mother look at the photo anyway. But damn. When I found that photo it didn't say anything about being from a movie. It was just a photo posted on google saying 1947 underneath it. Weird. Well if this is from a movie and not from a magazine or someone's old set of photos I am going to have to go straight back to the drawing board. I still say it is worth having Granddaughter's mom look at it. Is it at all possible that George saw this photo and believed it was his daughter? Could the photo have been in a magazine about the movie, but have had the wrong caption underneath it? Or something of that nature?

catsy101
06-17-2008, 11:36 AM
Okay photo after photo of Tina looks nothing like the girl

catsy101
06-17-2008, 11:41 AM
Let me show you

catsy101
06-17-2008, 11:43 AM
Can't be the same child the girl in the pigtails looks nothing Like the real Betty photo or the photo of the ballerina girl. Look at them closely.

catsy101
06-17-2008, 11:48 AM
1. Tina looks much younger than the girl in the ballet getup
2. Tina has thinner eyebrows than the girl in the ballet getup
3. Tina's eyes don't look the same as ballet girl
4. Tina's nose is not the same either
5. Tina does not have a widow's peak which in both Betty and the ballet girl it appears they do
6. Tina is scrawnier smaller and does not have as much substance, (in other words she is much thinner) than both ballet girl and Betty
7. The hair, although the same color for ballet girl and Betty and Tina, looks to be straight as a pin for Tina, whereas both Betty and Ballet photo show a child that has some waviness to her hair

This does not by any means prove that this is betty

It just makes me believe that ballet girl and Tina are NOT the same person

catsy101
06-17-2008, 11:54 AM
Hold on the photo is not of Tina it's of another little girl playing in the same movie I think We need to find out her name ESPECIALLY if granddaughter's mother looks at it and identifies this child as betty

missmuffit
06-17-2008, 11:51 PM
That is really odd. Granddaughter is having her mother look at the photo anyway. But damn. When I found that photo it didn't say anything about being from a movie. It was just a photo posted on google saying 1947 underneath it. Weird. Well if this is from a movie and not from a magazine or someone's old set of photos I am going to have to go straight back to the drawing board. I still say it is worth having Granddaughter's mom look at it. Is it at all possible that George saw this photo and believed it was his daughter? Could the photo have been in a magazine about the movie, but have had the wrong caption underneath it? Or something of that nature?

Catsy, do you still have the link for the website? The reason why I ask is that the link that pulled the picture is to a blog. The actual blog is from some town in England and that is where I got the name Michael Walford from. He is the one who posted the picture from the movie because he was doing a review of the actual movie. The only reason why I know this is I looked up the blogger thinking he was the actual photographer who took the picture and was wondering if there was anyway in which to contact him about the specifics of the photo. It is always possible that the picture used was not from the movie but when I googled the movie that still shot came up. I even found some Italian site (not sure where it is I was just clicking on links) that I think was a review with the same picture. I am assuming it was a review but it was in Italian and I do not speak or read Italian.

I guess that my second post was kind of vague. I just meant that there could still be a chance (a very long one) that the girl in the photo is little Betty IF this is indeed a still shot from the movie. I just can not see someone kidnapping Betty, then sending her to Italy, and then having her play a part in a movie. But like I said I am looking at the picture as if it is the movie picture and not the one that Mr. Sodder saw in Look magazine.

I really hope all of that made sense.

MM ~

catsy101
06-18-2008, 02:59 PM
Well all I can think is that if she was sent to Italy to be with family, they probably just would have treated her like any other kid. If she was sent for ballet lessons, perhaps the entire ballet class was asked to do the movie. I dunno. It IS a very long shot, but geeze, she looks a LOT like the children, she looks a LOT like Betty, and the two photos side by side look really close. I just dunno it's such a weird case and I know the photo of the supposed Betty has to be out there somewhere it couldn't have just been destroyed and every copy gone. And it is soooooooooooo weird that it wasn't in the magazine that George said it was in. I am beginning to wonder something else too... Hold on let me check on my soup than I will post a scenario.

catsy101
06-18-2008, 03:05 PM
So we know that there were five children who went missing. Their ages ranged from 14 all the way down to 5. Would everyone on here agree that if someone tried to take them from the home there would have been some sort of commotion? I think there would have been. I talked to my grandma and she said that a boy was 14 was almost considered a man at the time, and she said the oldest would have fought even if there was a gun and smaller siblings involved. Back than a boy of that age would not have just gone quietly. She also said the smaller siblings would have been harder to control. The 5 year old would not go quietly even if she saw a gun because she wouldn't completely understand, and the kids would have been screaming and crying and making all kinds of noise. Grandma said that the oldest daughter on the couch would have probably heard the commotion and awakened. But there was no commotion. I also asked her about the woman who was going around stealing children to sell on the black market. And grandma told me that it would be very difficult for a woman to take on 5 children of those ages. Plus, she said, the older children, Maurice and Martha Lee would have run away from their new homes the first chance they got to get back home. Which makes sense.

catsy101
06-18-2008, 03:11 PM
So what does this leave us? With two possibilities, the children left on their own, potentially starting the fire to make it look as though they died in the fire or for some other unknown reason, or it was just bad luck, that the same night the children run off the house catches fire, or that the children did die in the fire and by some freak of nature nothing is left to be found. My grandma told me, and she was born in 1931, that she had seen fires in her youth. If someone died in a burning building she told me there WAS the smell of burning bodies, even in situations where it was only one person who burned up and they lived in a big house. She has also stated that the fire department never would have tried to spare the families and hide the body, that they were actually MORE blunt than today when it came to identifying bodies. She also told me that she has never in all her years of living heard of a fire where something wasn't left. Bone fragments, teeth, SOMETHING. So she told me she didn't buy that not for one bit.

Granddaughter
06-23-2008, 09:12 AM
Mom looked at the photo, and it is not the one that Mom recalls. She remembers the photo being of a few students at a barre, and the little girl had the same posture as Betty and appeared very timid. My first thought when I saw the photo that Catsy found is that the little girl could not be part of our family if she had that much poise! None of us are Type A personalities. Mom tells me that Betty was the most shy of the children.

Angels_Not_Forgotten
09-26-2008, 11:57 PM
Ok, maybe im confused i have read all these threads in the last 2 days, but wasnt it said that in the detective magazine it was said the pic was of 2 new students in a ballett class? Is there anyway to narrow th search for the picture in Look magazine that way, by saying looking for 2 girls in a dance class?

Teresa Larson
09-27-2008, 01:37 AM
Look magazine was already searched if you read further back in the posts. The picture wasn't ever found We even wondered if it was a mistake and it was another magazine. The magazine for that supposed date was searched and it didn't contain the picture of the Sodder girl.

Angels_Not_Forgotten
09-27-2008, 12:44 PM
I remember reading it was searched, but I also remember someone saying they were looking for a class, didn't know if just 2 girls would be a better discription that may jogg someones memory, sorry...you guys are doing awesome work!

Laura_Bean
10-06-2008, 03:35 PM
this took me a long time, and I hope this is the right photo. Let's all cross our fingers.http://s496.photobucket/albums/rr329/Catsy101_1978/?action=tageditmany

Laura_Bean
10-06-2008, 03:39 PM
This is a photo from the 1940's. Person selling it via ebay does not know the exact year but said mid to late 40's when asked. Also told me the photo he thinks was taken in New York. By his great-grandpa. He inherited a lot of different photos. Said the man was an avid photographer.http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr329/Catsy101_1978/?action=view&current=6434_1.jpg

Laura_Bean
10-06-2008, 03:39 PM
http://s496.photobucket.com/albums/rr329/Catsy101_1978/?action=view&current=6434_1.jpg

Laura_Bean
10-06-2008, 04:31 PM
Okay so in the photo it is not of two girls, but not a lot either. They are standing in line for a class. The barre is right behind them. The girl 2nd to the left looks like Betty. I think a lot. Enough to make you want to look closer. I cannot afford to buy the photo on Ebay, I don't have the money the man wants who is selling it. I wish I could so I could see it up close.

birdie74
10-06-2008, 09:46 PM
I couldn't see it up close either, but I could see some resemblance.

fox1950
10-06-2008, 10:32 PM
Brought the picture down and cropped it-but can't tell much about the little girl. I remember granddaughter saying the girl in the picture had Betty's demeanor-shy and bashful.

Laura_Bean
10-07-2008, 10:55 AM
Granddaughter should look at it. She may be able to tell us more. If it is the photo or not. If not, it is back to the drawing board, right?

Gray
10-28-2008, 12:09 PM
It's possible that Walt Whitman school wasn't in that building until 1948, looking at the date of this article.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60914F93E58177B93C1A9178DD85F4C 8485F9

Don't know if this has been posted... if so, sorry I'm so late. :o

I don't know... that's confusing to me. If he wrote the letter in 1947 (in January, no less) then why is this article dated June 3, 1948? Maybe they moved into a different building on 78th street? :confused:

belimom
11-20-2008, 09:47 AM
After looking at the pictures, I don't believe Betty is in them... I don't believe they died in the fire but that just doesn't look like her to me... JMHO.

Granddaughter
11-28-2008, 12:04 PM
Hi all -

Mom looked at the photo of the ballet class, and she does not believe it to be the right one. She recalls a barre, as in the photo, but she also remembers that the girl had Betty's shy posture. I tried to locate the photo through magazines, but also have had no luck.

jashrema
12-23-2009, 01:01 AM
I know everyone has been talking about the photo being Betty Sodder, but to me...it looks like a match to Jennie Sodder. Everything is there, even the "shadow" on the chin...see what you think...

http://media.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2005/dec/sodder/jennie200.jpg?t=1248630579

pic of Jennie Sodder


http://images91.imikimi.com/image/images_full/77642991.jpg

cats pic she found

jashrema
12-23-2009, 01:05 AM
I think they look very similar...much more likely than Betty being the one in the pic. The arch of the eyebrow is the same, but jennie's eyebrows came over onto her nose more. Of course, that is something that easily "plucks" away! Does jennie have a cleft chin? Does the girl in Cats photo have a cleft? A cleft is genetic. One parent MUST have a cleft chin for it to be passed to child...so if we agree that the child in Cats pic HAS a cleft chin, and neither one of the Sodders has a cleft...then the child in Cats pic cannot be a Sodder child.
Any close up pics of the Sodder parents?

dogperson
12-25-2009, 12:53 PM
There is currently a copy of this magazine for sale on eBay under the store name shoppinglollypop. It shows a two-page spread of photos of the little girls in the ballet school. I can't enlarge it enough to see them very well. Only 2 or 3 of them have dark enough hair to be Betty Sodder. It is a Buy It Now magazine for $10.49.

SunnieRN
08-24-2010, 03:44 AM
I know everyone has been talking about the photo being Betty Sodder, but to me...it looks like a match to Jennie Sodder. Everything is there, even the "shadow" on the chin...see what you think...

http://media.npr.org/programs/atc/features/2005/dec/sodder/jennie200.jpg?t=1248630579

pic of Jennie Sodder


http://images91.imikimi.com/image/images_full/77642991.jpg

cats pic she found

This made the hair on the back of my neck stand up!

Bennettras
08-24-2010, 03:49 AM
This made the hair on the back of my neck stand up!

Nose and brows look totally different to me.

DIRK SCHILLER
12-03-2010, 06:26 AM
I can't open it either. I think looking for the picture is a good idea-for 60 some years it has been part of this mystery. So why not try to prove or disprove it is Betty? Just like the 1968 photo. It would be wonderful if the person would come forward if it is not Louis and say "Hey, that's me when I was 26 but I have no idea who could have sent it to you or why they did that to you." That would end the mystery of who it is, whether it is Louis or not.

well why not showing that pic in one of that crime shows, kinda Nancy Grace, you guys have that possibility over there

DIRK SCHILLER
12-03-2010, 06:41 AM
I have just recieved this response

16 May 2008
Ms. Hume,

So far, I haven't found the photograph. I looked through the entire May 14, 1946
issue and there was no such image. That definitely confirms what the
granddaughter thought about that specific issue. There was not a May 14, 1948
issue.

I have also used the yearly indexes published by LOOK in an attempt to find the
photo. There were no references to the Walt Whitman School or Louise Krueger in
the years 1946, 1947, or 1948. Since Mr. Sodder knew to write to the Walt
Whitman School and more specifically to Louise Krueger, I would think that those
names would have been mentioned in the article.

I then broadened my search to New York City, schools, and education and still
didn't find the photo. I will still do a bit more looking early next week but
I'm beginning to lose confidence in my ability to find the photo. Do you think
it is possible that the photo appeared in a magazine other than LOOK? That
would make it even harder, if not impossible, to locate the photo, but I suppose it could be a possibility.

Jan Grenci
Reference Specialist




http://2neat.com/magazines/images/LOOK-Magazine-1946-05-14.jpg

http://2neat.com/magazines/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_12

http://2neat.com/magazines/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_12&products_id=111

DIRK SCHILLER
12-03-2010, 07:24 AM
Why would somebody kidnap Betty and put her in an orphanage? That doesn't make much sense to me. A Jewish one no less?? I am sorry but I really doubt she was ever there. :twocents:

well why would somebody kidnap Betty and let them take photographs for one of the most important magazines, I would not take that riesk if I did illegally adopt her except parents did not know they adopted a kidnapped girl

Peliman
12-03-2010, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by Shadow205
I need help researching and trying to find an old magazine. You will remember mentioned that George Sodder saw a picture of a young girl in a magazine that he beleived was Betty. He traveled to New York in an attempt to identify the girl but was not allowed to see her. Here is the letter that he wrote to the school;


ALSO
Copied over from #2 thread...

I found this posted in thread one, but I can't get it to open...anyone?

First time looking at this thread, didn't see if anyone cracked this link. Here's the working link requested. (two pages)

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wvrcbiog/WhatReallyHappenedToChildrena.html

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wvrcbiog/WhatReallyHappenedToChildrenb.html

dogperson
07-17-2011, 04:37 PM
The part about this picture is one of the strangest aspects, to me, about this whole case. Several people have looked through the magazine issue that George Sodder specified in his letter but there is no photo like the one we are looking for. It's hard to believe he could possibly have gotten such an important fact wrong, such as the date or the name of the magazine. I have been checking some LOOK and TIME magazines for the period of May 1946 and cannot find it in them either so far. There are ballet pictures in some issues, but not around the specific date. I found a LOOK magazine for June 1948 with a photo of girls in a ballet class but this date is way too late.

Fluttershy
08-04-2011, 11:00 AM
Jennie, since the original letter doesn't mention ballet, or dancing, is there any chance your mother is misremembering that?
Are there any photos of children in New York in that edition of the magazine?

Teresa Larson
08-05-2011, 08:36 AM
Jennie, since the original letter doesn't mention ballet, or dancing, is there any chance your mother is misremembering that?
Are there any photos of children in New York in that edition of the magazine?
Misremembering???? Her mother was a young child back then. How would she or could she know anything about that? There wasn't anything ever reported about any of the other children being in the magazine.

Fluttershy
08-07-2011, 04:16 PM
Sorry Teresa, I was referencing this

Jennie also said: My mom remembers the picture showing little girls lined up at a ballet class.
from the original post.
As far as I can tell, this is the only piece of information we have referencing ballet or dancing at all. Mr Sodder's original letter doesn't mention dancing or ballet, just that this particular issue features children who are attending Walt Whitman school in New York. I was wondering if there are any photos of children at all in this specific issue of Look Magazine. If Jennie's mother is mis-remembering that the photo was of little girls dancing, then we're looking for the wrong thing altogether.
Sorry if I'm not being very clear. :(

dogperson
08-08-2011, 12:39 PM
Sorry Teresa, I was referencing this

from the original post.
As far as I can tell, this is the only piece of information we have referencing ballet or dancing at all. Mr Sodder's original letter doesn't mention dancing or ballet, just that this particular issue features children who are attending Walt Whitman school in New York. I was wondering if there are any photos of children at all in this specific issue of Look Magazine. If Jennie's mother is mis-remembering that the photo was of little girls dancing, then we're looking for the wrong thing altogether.
Sorry if I'm not being very clear. :(

That is a great point you made. If Jennie's mom misremembered what was in the photo, then that would explain all the confusion and problems with this particular issue of the magazine. Maybe she remembers there being a photo of a ballet class in the magazine, but the picture of the child in question was altogether another picture.

dogperson
04-04-2013, 04:47 PM
Still thinking about this one and puzzling about why we can't find the photo. I have looked through a number of issues and can find nothing exactly like the photo described.
I don't blame the teacher for not letting Mr. Sodder see the student. If the teacher really was certain about the little girl's parentage then she wasn't about to show her to a stranger who she may have believed was delusional about this being his daughter. I tend to believe it wasn't Betty unless the teacher was covering up for someone or truly believed the child's parents were her biological parents. It sounds like the teacher was being protective of the little girl but probably not for sinister reasons.

annoulzz
04-15-2013, 03:26 PM
i wonder what ballet school was featured on this cover..

http://services.tomfolio.com/gibsonsbooks/images/lifechildrenballet.jpg

Laura_Bean
04-18-2013, 06:05 PM
I have come to the bizarre conclusion that this picture does not exist. I went through the library of congress and the lady there was so helpful and soooo excited to help, and she checked every publication at the time. First off, the date is wrong it has to be. Because she checked all those magazines and there was no such date in any from the time. She searched Time, she searched 20+ others. Nothing, not a match not even a possibility. The lady had to stop because well there was no where else to look. I have come to the conclusion this magazine did not exist. I think graddaughter's memories are of her dad talking about the photo in vivid detail to her, and not a real memory of the actual photo and what it looked like. I don't know what happened, if Mr. Sodder was so hopeful he dreamed it and thought it was real maybe asked what happened to the magazine and no one had seen it the next day and he thought he lost or misplaced it, or if he just saw a photo and it looked nothing like his dear daughter but his hopes made him hallucinate, or if he lied just to keep people looking and talking. But I just cannot understand how there is zero trace of this photo. I have written to collectors of several of the publications, some who had dates close to the one but there was no publication printed on the date Mr. Sodder claimed the photo showed up in. We looked in others too, like Look, etc. Nothing. Nada. Checked into the school too, and found some old photos of kids at the school and still nothing. No one knows about the photo, no one has seen such a photo, nothing has come up in all this time. I just don't get it, but I truly am at the point that I don't believe it EVER EXISTED. And to cover up an entire issue from a magazine as big as Time or Look or any of the big ones, would have been IMPOSSIBLE, so the conspiracy theory doesn't fly with me. Could Mr. Sodder have lied about the existence of this photo, and lied and said he was going to that school in NY, and actually went somewhere else?

Laura_Bean
04-24-2013, 08:22 PM
So did George have more than 1 picture? Because he says he SENT IT to Ms. Krueger. Given how upset she was that he showed up at the school, I doubt she sent it back.... How did granddaughter see it if he sent it? Did he buy several copies of the magazine? Remember we are talking before photocopying so....



Originally Posted by Shadow205
I need help researching and trying to find an old magazine. You will remember mentioned that George Sodder saw a picture of a young girl in a magazine that he beleived was Betty. He traveled to New York in an attempt to identify the girl but was not allowed to see her. Here is the letter that he wrote to the school;

Walt Whitman School
25 East 78th Street
New York, NY
Attn: Miss Louise Krueger, Director

Dear Miss Krueger:

The enclosed picture of several of your students appearing in the May 14, 1946, edition of LOOK magazine is self-explanatory.

For your information, the little girl to which the arrow points quite definitely resembles one of our children who disappeared during the latter part of 1945, and I shall appreciate it greatly if you will, at your earliest convenience, favor me with the following information:

1. Her name
2. The date of her enrollment
3. Any further information you may feel at liberty to supply.

Needless to say, your cooperation in this matter will be more than appreciated.

Yours very truly,

George Sodder
According to Jennie(Granddaughter) it is not known if he received a reply to the letter or not. She thought that she located the correct magazine and purchased it but the picture that she was looking for was not in it. So, evidently there was a mistake on which issue the picture appeared in. Anyone that would like to help could search for anything to do with the school, classmates.com, reunion sites, any place where we might find pictures of students from that time period, any info on "Ms.Krueger".

Any ideas on where we might go with this information?

Jennie also said: My mom remembers the picture showing little girls lined up at a ballet class.
I found a site that lists old issues of Look Magazine and describes some of the topics featured in them:

http://www.pastpaper.com/List-Look40s.htm (http://www.pastpaper.com/List-Look40s.htm)

The February 5, 1946 issue lists "Ballet Fashion Show". Not sure if that is what we are looking for. I find it hard to believe that Mr. Sodder would get the date of the magazine wrong. Perhaps the magazine has pages missing from it?



ALSO
Copied over from #2 thread...

I found this posted in thread one, but I can't get it to open...anyone?

horselightning
11-20-2013, 06:47 PM
Well the current article or blogs on the case are saying Mr. Sodder saw the picture in the new papers. I would say some one will have to go to the local towns library were the Sodder's lived and see if they can find the picture in the archives in the local paper in the year he would have saw the picture.

dogperson
11-21-2013, 01:37 PM
There is definitely something hugely wrong with Mr Sodder's letter, grandmother's or the mom's memories, or something. I don't know what kind of publication the photo actually appeared in but his letter itself is where we got the name of the magazine and the issue date, so he obviously believed it was from the magazine. Could someone have found the picture or sent him the picture? Because years later someone anonymously mailed the family a picture that may have been Louis Sodder as a grown man. I can't recall, did Mr Sodder claim to have found the magazine photo himself or could someone have sent it to him? If he received it from another party then they may have incorrectly or purposely given him the wrong information.
Memories can definitely be wrong. There was an incident in my teen years which I remembered very very differently than according to how it actually happened, which I found out some time back when a relative gave me copies of old letters she and I wrote to each other back at that time. You would not believe how vastly different my memories were (20+ years later) from the written letter I sent when the incident actually occurred. So it does happen.

AddysMom7610
01-30-2014, 10:44 AM
I am still researching the magazine angle and havent found much but what I did find was...

Per ancestry.com the Manhattan, NY City Directories lists

Louise Krueger as being employed at the Walt Whitman School on 25 East 78th Street from 1942-1953.

Let me explain what I mean. There are city directories for random years and so the earliest year I could find her working there was 1942 and the last year I could find her working there was 1953 so it could have been longer than this time period.

Will post when I have more.

ETA:

Louise Krueger and Harold Rugg married Aug 25, 1930 in Nevada. They had one child, a boy, Harold Rugg Jr. born in (or around) 1937 in New York. After marrying, they lived in Bearsville, New York which is two hours away from Manhattan. However, as someone already said, they were divorced by the time she started working at Walt Whitman. I do not have dates for her divorce yet.

UVB76
04-12-2014, 11:14 AM
This story haunts me! I want to find this photo crazy bad. Not sure if anyone followed up, but a woman replied to Catsy's post on the Gotham Center discussion boards.
http://www.gothamcenter.org/discussions/viewtopic.php?id=4076

UVB76
04-12-2014, 11:44 AM
Talking to a woman who attended the school... She said they were very big in incorporating the arts and Dance into the curriculum. Said Ms. Kruegar was very big on that stuff. Maybe that's why she was so defensive?

Also, the First grade teacher at Walt Whitman in 1946, her last name was Albanese. Using my Ancestry account to see if I can find anything else out.

Amy74
06-19-2014, 10:41 PM
To satisfy my own curiosity, I purchased a copy of the Look magazine mentioned here. After seeing it I really believe the the ballet photo does not exist. I think it was most likely just mis-remembered. There is a photo of a group of young kids at an art class (mentioned earlier in this thread.) There is a little girl pictured twice (main photo and an individual) who I suspect is the little girl in question. The photos and accompanying story don't mention names or schools, but the photographer is listed in the photo credits. He was a staff photographer at Look Magazine.I suspect the Sodder's contacted the magazine and were then referred to the W.Whitman School. I will try to scan and upload the photos sometime this weekend.

dogperson
06-20-2014, 12:48 PM
Thanks for offering to upload the photos, that would be great to see them. I too think the photo doesn't exist. I think maybe somehow 2 different photos got mixed up in some family members' minds maybe. Time changes our memories and blends things together in odd ways. George Sodder's letter didn't specifically say the photo was of a ballet class did it? I was thinking it didn't.

dogperson
06-20-2014, 12:49 PM
I just rechecked the letter and it does not specify what type of photo the child was in. It was another family member who thought it had been a ballet class.

Medebbie
08-25-2014, 12:34 PM
It was actually the Look magazine from Feb. 5th, 1946. It has the ballet fashion show in it. I have reposted the photo we have seen before. This has to be the one he was referring to. The little girl in the front with the curls could be her. I'm going to keep looking around.

NDMagoo
08-26-2014, 02:49 AM
The girl in the photo looks somewhat similar to Betty Sodder, but I can see some likely differences. The ballet girl's eyebrows look quite bushier, and her nose appears to be a different shape (upturned, even when considering the angle of shot).