Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #4

[Peculiar Petunia]

[quote=DeltaDawn;2268238] It just keeps growing as we keep researching. quote]

Not sure there's much more to research. Gannon said the smiley faces are "1/13th" of the "taggings" and he's brought in tagging experts. As far as I know, tagging graffiti always refers to gang graffiti. Previously he referred to other graffiti as "symbols", but now he says he's brought in tagging experts for "tagging graffiti". So unless Gannon is playing games and throwing out a red herring; which I don't think he'd do at this point; then what he's got to be saying is that these are street gang killings and I would think Mexican. I'm guessing he said the smileys are "1/13th" of the taggings; as a hint that the killings are either MS-13 or Sur 13. Just weird how he arrived at "1/13th". If this is MS 13, Sur 13 or another street gang; then the motive would be the only mystery left

Agree. 1/13 is a very weird fraction, unless there's another meaning.

But wouldn't a Mexican-American be rather noteworthy in Wisconsin? Outside of Milwaukee/Waukesha, there's not much of a population. Is there a large Latino population in any of the areas where there have been killings, besides the Welzien murder in Chicago?

[Pixie72]

Hi All~ Been busy this week and wasn't able to post. I've just been reading over the posts from the last week.

This may be something that was posted on this string a while back and maybe I missed it but even if it has been I think it is worth bringing up. I have read on some other sites that have discussion threads abouth the college kids drowning about a company called Trane. There is a theory circulating that the killer works for this company. I find this very interesting as my gut still tells me this is one person acting alone. Someone who travels for a living would very well be able to pull off the type of pattern seen with these dissappearances. This company, Trane (specializing in HVAC), has a large facility in LaCrosse. They also have locations, sales offices, or clients all near where these drownings have occurred. Their headquarters is in New Jersey I believe. They recently got a contract with the school in Vermont that Nick Garza attended. If you go to this company's website you will see that they also offer alot of training, they list schedules for classes. Many of which are in LaCrosse, oddly the dates these classes start are in the fall.

I would be curious if there is any employee of this company that could be matched up with being in any of the places where these kids dissapeared from.

I also have to comment on the discussion of people here in the Midwest deciding to take a dip in the lake, river, etc. I would think this type of behavior, though it doesn't make alot of sense, would be more likely to occur if they were with a group of friends. You know someone saying "I dare ya to go jump in the river". I do not see any of these young men consciously making the decision to go down by the lake/river for a swim in the middle of the night. Even if they just had to take a piss, do that many men "fall in" when relieving themselves? I don't think so. Also my fiance has been to LaCrosse, it would not be easy to get down to the Mississippi from where the bars are located, I think it's pretty rocky. Now if any of them did "fall" in don't you think they would have bumps, bruises, etc. from a fall. I think someone earlier pointed this out, I just want to reiterate how silly it sounds that they just "fell" in by accident.

Anyway that's my thoughts for today.............

[SheerLuck]

I would like LE to look the parents and friends of the following listed young men directly in they eye and tell them "It's all just a coincidence."

2007-2008 School Year

* 09/30/07 Christopher Melancom, 24, drowned,…. Iraqi Vet--La Crosse, Wi
Fact is, these may not all be related,...............but,............how many of them are?

JMHO
fran

LE and the FBI are stretched out enough, so why go back and reopen 90 cases that have practically no evidence to go on; when Gannon has now told us these drownings are gang related? Maybe none of you listened to Gannon yesterday on WGY??? The recent cases and in particular the Szostak case which absolutely reeks of murder with different evidence from all the other cases; like a stolen car; should be reopened because he might not be connected to these others. But the focus on gangs; really needs to be on the present; not the past(IMO). For those who did not hear WGY; Gannon said he shared 1,000's of photos of gang taggings and gang graffitti with Professor Gilbertson because the professor is an expert in the taggings of gangs nationwide; while him and Duarte have just some familiararity with the Bronx street gang taggings. He said different states had different taggings and thats where his idea of separate pods came from. I guess there's the possibility that Gannon is throwing the public a red herring, but more likely he's realizing that LE and the FBI simply see no reason to go back many years and try to solve perfect crimes; unless there are pictures of the same people in different bars when different abductions happened; but without pictures of people it's near impossible to make any arrests outside of maybe the Jenkins case. But even that one would be tough; based on a statement from a guy in jail. What isn't solved is motive; or at least Gannon was honest and upfront and he said he won't discuss motive; at least not yet. So maybe there's a bit left here; although its probably just racism and gang initiation. As for families; it's possible that Gannon has privately told some or all of the families of his conclusions; I wouldn't know. Unless Gannon was bullshi****** yesterday; then this case might be done unless some big business money rolls in to help Gannon or LE hire a task force. Looking back; it was obvious that these were racial crimes, but I thought these were satanist losers; not street gangs. It's been nice sharing ideas with everyone. Best of luckhttp://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif!

[SheerLuck]

[quote=SheerLuck;2268601]

Agree. 1/13 is a very weird fraction, unless there's another meaning.

But wouldn't a Mexican-American be rather noteworthy in Wisconsin? Outside of Milwaukee/Waukesha, there's not much of a population. Is there a large Latino population in any of the areas where there have been killings, besides the Welzien murder in Chicago?

Hi Delta Dawn; there doesn't need to be any Latino population in a community for a Mexican street gang to move and take over. Some street gangs like to just control 1 city but some are nationwide like the 2 main black gangs; the Blood and the Crypts. MS-13 has stated their goal is to be the number gang in America and Sur 13 is also big; as are some of the other Mexican/Central American gangs. To be number 1 it means slowly going nationwide and getting your foot in the door and gaining a stronghold in every state eventually; even in "white" states like Wisconsin or West Virginia. What sucks is that young members who join these gangs usually are extremely misguided and will do anything to be a part of any gang who they think cares for them. You talked about hierarchy here and seem to have read up on it to understand why these kids would even kill if told to

[vermontn03]

[quote=Peculiar Petunia;2268821]

Hi Delta Dawn; there doesn't need to be any Latino population in a community for a Mexican street gang to move and take over. Some street gangs like to just control 1 city but some are nationwide like the 2 main black gangs; the Blood and the Crypts. MS-13 has stated their goal is to be the number gang in America and Sur 13 is also big; as are some of the other Mexican/Central American gangs. To be number 1 it means slowly going nationwide and getting your foot in the door and gaining a stronghold in every state eventually; even in "white" states like Wisconsin or West Virginia. What sucks is that young members who join these gangs usually are extremely misguided and will do anything to be a part of any gang who they think cares for them. You talked about hierarchy here and seem to have read up on it to understand why these kids would even kill if told to

Bloods and Crypts in Vermont.

BURLINGTON, Vt. -- Members of Killer Bronx Committee or KBC, a drug gang based in New York City, moved their drug operation to Winooski five years ago.

The group set up in a Winooski woman's apartment, selling crack cocaine.

"We were actually dumbfounded by it. They literally disappeared off the corner," said retired New York City police Detective George Duguid.

Duguid, a member of the NYPD's Bronx Gang Squad, had been investigating the gang for more than two years.

Duguid followed the drug gang to Vermont.

http://www.wptz.com/2008/0226/15418506_240X180.jpg

http://www.wptz.com/news/15417626/detail.html

[vermontn03]

Didn't see any posts from her; hopefully she's okay because she seems to have the time to really search the web in detail. Here's link for interviews from this morning of Gannon. I didn't have a chance to listen yet, but WGY's Albany's Al Roney is a great interviewer; much better than CNN and GMA, who threw Gannon a bunch of softballs; without addressing some of the questionable parts of their case. Hopefully he asked a few of the tough questions; especially the "scientific" method used by Gannon to determine where the bodies go in is questionable. Here's link; just scroll down page half way or so and look to your left for parts 1 and 2.

http://www.wgy.com/pages/onair/onair_roney.html

I have heard this and they are coming here to vermont this week to look more and the Nicholas Garza Case, as they had said this case is suspicious and they do not like it.

[vermontn03]

ST. ALBANS, Vt. -- Some neighbors in St. Albans said they're sick of crime in their city.

At a crime forum Wednesday, more than 150 residents gathered with police to talk about what's driving crime.

Police said the number of assaults and robberies are up 124 percent in the past seven years.

They said much of the problem is gang violence and confirmed that members of several national gangs including the Bloods, the Latin Kings and the Los Solidos are in the area.

St. Albans Police Chief Gary Taylor also believes there is a home-grown gang known as the Franklin County White Boys.

http://www.wptz.com/news/16420486/detail.html

I live in the next town up from st. Albans. dark_shadows is from St. albans. I have a police scanner and in the last two weeks there has been at least 10 assaults. 1-2 happen everyday.

My Fiancee works with a man who is a soldier and is heading back to iraq and has meet up with these gangs, It seems like that they just pick anyone. No they didn't hurt him. The first assault that I heard on the scanner was a young woman who was standing infront of the sameratin house and was attacked. The Sameratin house is a place for homeless people to live.

On memorial day there was a huge fight in St. Albans, where 20-30 men were fighting they called in at least 3-4 different police departments to help break it up.

[SheerLuck]

[quote=SheerLuck;2269067]

Bloods and Crypts in Vermont.

BURLINGTON, Vt. -- Members of Killer Bronx Committee or KBC, a drug gang based in New York City, moved their drug operation to Winooski five years ago.

The group set up in a Winooski woman's apartment, selling crack cocaine.

"We were actually dumbfounded by it. They literally disappeared off the corner," said retired New York City police Detective George Duguid.

Duguid, a member of the NYPD's Bronx Gang Squad, had been investigating the gang for more than two years.

Duguid followed the drug gang to Vermont.

http://www.wptz.com/2008/0226/15418506_240X180.jpg

http://www.wptz.com/news/15417626/detail.html

Hi; good post as you point out the Bloods and Crypts are powerful in NYC which is Gannons backyard; The Bronx. So he's got to know some of their taggings, but as a retired detective for 10 years he might no know of these Mexican/Central American gangs. Maybe I shouldn't assume "1/13th" means Mexican but it jumps out because so many including their 2 biggest have the number 13 in their name. Gannons been to Vermont and is really working hard on Booth, Szostak and Garza. Nothing much said about the Ithaca case from April 27th which was within 3 hours or so of these 3 as well--that one is very odd also

[RR0004]

I have heard this and they are coming here to vermont this week to look more and the Nicholas Garza Case, as they had said this case is suspicious and they do not like it.

Boy, wouldn't I like to be there as well. I have the utmost respect for these detectives...I remember the McNeill drowning very well.

[vermontn03]

I have heard this and they are coming here to vermont this week to look more and the Nicholas Garza Case, as they had said this case is suspicious and they do not like it.

Boy, wouldn't I like to be there as well. I have the utmost respect for these detectives...I remember the McNeill drowning very well.


So would I.

[looneymama]

hmm...this is creepy read the top one for the 5th precinct. http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/crimealert/2008-04-22-MPD-Highlights.asp

[looneymama]

I think it's crips not crypts

[SheerLuck]

ST. ALBANS, Vt. -- Some neighbors in St. Albans said they're sick of crime in their city.

At a crime forum Wednesday, more than 150 residents gathered with police to talk about what's driving crime.

.

Having a bad economy sure doesn't help. To me I've always thought of Vermont as a clean friendly state; quite different than NY; so it sucks this stuff is happening there. If you start seeing groups of black kids with blue or red shirts and other idiots all with their hats turned the same way or maybe matching bandanas; then the gangs are there and the fighting will escalate unless it's squashed now. In Albany a 10 year old girl was shot and killed a few days ago from a stray bullet~just totally sucks

[SheerLuck]

I think it's crips not crypts

You're right; crips. that news article you posted might indicate a person in the cab cracked open a beer or sometihing, which would infuriate some muslims. A lot of muslim cab drivers in minneapolis are radical muslims and they refuse to pick up anyone who has alcohol They also won't even pick up a blind person who has a dog because they view the dog as dirty; thats how they interpret the koran. So I don't think that article relates to these gang drownings. It's just another enemy within that has to be dealt with

[looneymama]

You're right; crips. that news article you posted might indicate a person in the cab cracked open a beer or sometihing, which would infuriate some muslims. A lot of muslim cab drivers in minneapolis are radical muslims and they refuse to pick up anyone who has alcohol They also won't even pick up a blind person who has a dog because they view the dog as dirty; thats how they interpret the koran. So I don't think that article relates to these gang drownings. It's just another enemy within that has to be dealt with

It's actually an update that you can subscribe to from the Minneapolis Police Department. Kind of gives you an overview of what's gone on during the week but yeah, you are probably right. That is a big issue in Minneapolis...frustrating for people on both sides.

I ran across that particular one by doing a search for surenos 13...most of the time when they are mentioned, it has to do with a shooting. I guess I don't really see them being part of this...

[Pixie72]

I just would like to point out that gangs are more interested in killing people who are in their territory, i.e. rival gangs. They would not be targeting innocent college men, they would have no reason to be involved in any of these killings.

Also please go back and read my previous post from yesterday, regarding the company Trane. I think this is more logical than gang involvement.

[SuziQ]

Blink's missing too...any sighting of her as well?

She's away on business, but will be back on Saturday.

[DeltaDawn]

[quote=Peculiar Petunia;2268821]

Hi Delta Dawn; there doesn't need to be any Latino population in a community for a Mexican street gang to move and take over. Some street gangs like to just control 1 city but some are nationwide like the 2 main black gangs; the Blood and the Crypts. MS-13 has stated their goal is to be the number gang in America and Sur 13 is also big; as are some of the other Mexican/Central American gangs. To be number 1 it means slowly going nationwide and getting your foot in the door and gaining a stronghold in every state eventually; even in "white" states like Wisconsin or West Virginia. What sucks is that young members who join these gangs usually are extremely misguided and will do anything to be a part of any gang who they think cares for them. You talked about hierarchy here and seem to have read up on it to understand why these kids would even kill if told to


That post was from Peculiar Petunia..not me.

[DeltaDawn]

I just would like to point out that gangs are more interested in killing people who are in their territory, i.e. rival gangs. They would not be targeting innocent college men, they would have no reason to be involved in any of these killings.

Also please go back and read my previous post from yesterday, regarding the company Trane. I think this is more logical than gang involvement.


Back a thread or two and also in some other topics..Eathan posted about the Trane theory and it was discussed. Use search and put in Trane and the threads and posts should be available to you to read.

[looneymama]

I just would like to point out that gangs are more interested in killing people who are in their territory, i.e. rival gangs.

I agree, and when I listened to that podcast where gangs were mentioned...it didn't to me sound any different than any other time he's mentioned gangs. Just because he's got people who are knowledgeable when it comes to graffiti, doesn't necessarily mean that he thinks that it's that type of gang. I think if anything, they want to know what tags are common for local gangs so they can see if the ones that they are finding are out of place.

Some of these gangs shoot people in broad day light in busy areas. They want respect based on fear and they wouldn't get that by doing this.

[SheerLuck]

I just would like to point out that gangs are more interested in killing people who are in their territory, i.e. rival gangs. They would not be targeting innocent college men, they would have no reason to be involved in any of these killings.

Also please go back and read my previous post from yesterday, regarding the company Trane. I think this is more logical than gang involvement.

Gannon has told us the killings are done by street gangs. Inless you think Gannon is playing games and lieing; the case is solved as to who the killers are. I'm sure Gannon is being truthful; so for anyone who trusts Gannon and listened to the podcast I posted; the whodunit part of the mystery is solved. The only mystery left is motive. I'd guess the motive is most likely gang initiation and racism. I won't speculate on other theories for motive

[looneymama]

Gannon has told us the killings are done by street gangs. Inless you think Gannon is playing games and lieing; the case is solved as to who the killers are. I'm sure Gannon is being truthful; so for anyone who trusts Gannon and listened to the podcast I posted; the whodunit part of the mystery is solved. The only mystery left is motive. I'd guess the motive is most likely gang initiation and racism. I won't speculate on other theories for motive

I don't recall him specifically saying "street gangs" I'll have to listen to it again when I have a chance.

[SheerLuck]

I agree, and when I listened to that podcast where gangs were mentioned...it didn't to me sound any different than any other time he's mentioned gangs. Just because he's got people who are knowledgeable when it comes to graffiti, doesn't necessarily mean that he thinks that it's that type of gang. I think if anything, they want to know what tags are common for local gangs so they can see if the ones that they are finding are out of place.
.
I'll keep an open mind but "tagging" has always been street gang specific. You're right about Dr. Gilbertson though because he is an expert in street gangs, but also satanists and cults. I thought satanists were the killers, not street gangs; but I've never heard anyone in LE refer to tagging as anything but street gangs

[looneymama]

I'll keep an open mind but "tagging" has always been street gang specific.

There are a lot of people that are into "tagging" that have no connections at all to gangs. Some just do it for the excitement of trying not to get caught, some do it to spread political messages, gangs are just a percentage of the different types of graffiti and are not the only people that refer to their specific marks or signatures as "tags"

[pixies]

I just watched the video about a missing college student named Brandon Swanson, the interviewer on Fox asked the father if he thinks the "smiley face" gang could be responsible...
I am kinda pissed the lady asked the father that question (seemed very uncaring) but the father said he didnt know.

It was on Fox but I can no longer find the video.


Brandon Swanson is from Minnesota

[thefragile7393]

I truely feel these are not street-gang related. They are more into drugs and the smuggling of drugs, human trafficking, racketeering, sometimes money laundering. This appears to be a gang (or several persons or one person) of a totally different sort.

And yes, tagging is NOT only street gang related. In high school I knew several and they were not gang-affliated. Some are rather talented and do it for art purposes. It's already been brought out some do it for political purposes, some are bored and like being destructive. Also, I'm not buying into the cult theory/"satanists," as true Satanists do not do things like this....though anyone can do horrible things and call themselves one. This seems to reek more of something outside those lines.

[RR0004]

She's away on business, but will be back on Saturday.
Thanks, Suzi!!

[Pixie72]

I don't think there was anyone who had a theory that these drownings were related to some sort of gang until Gannon and Duarte came out with their theory. Dr. Gillbertson and his students very clearly indicated that they felt it was one person and even came up with a profile of that one person. I think some people on here are getting their information confused.

I believe everyone has a right to their own theories and beliefs on this case but I truly believe it is not some sort of gang, that is my opinion. As far as it being proven that this is a gang, I don't think the "tagging" or "graffiti" proves Gannon's and Duarte's theory very convincingly. Smiley faces are a very commonly used type of graffiti and I believe it is more of a coincidence than anything. How do they know that someone didn't go back and put the smiley face there at a later time. Did Gannon and Duarte go and investigate each and everyone of these cases at the same time local LE was on the case?

Why I am not convinced of any of this still is that the smiley faces have NOT been found at all drowning sites, primarily the ones in Minnesota & Wisconsin, including Chris Jenkins. If these were truly all linked by the smiley graffiti then it would be at ALL of the places these drownings occurred.

If there truly was this hard evidence that Gannon and Duarte claim to have there would not be all the questions still looming and there would be charges filed.

Am I off my rocker??!! I need something logical and proven for me to believe them, isn't this why the FBI and LE have done nothing? Someone has figured out how to commit the perfect murder. I think it's just that simple.

So I hope I haven't offended anyone~this is just what I believe.

[Peculiar Petunia]

I don't think there was anyone who had a theory that these drownings were related to some sort of gang until Gannon and Duarte came out with their theory. Dr. Gillbertson and his students very clearly indicated that they felt it was one person and even came up with a profile of that one person. I think some people on here are getting their information confused.

I believe everyone has a right to their own theories and beliefs on this case but I truly believe it is not some sort of gang, that is my opinion. As far as it being proven that this is a gang, I don't think the "tagging" or "graffiti" proves Gannon's and Duarte's theory very convincingly. Smiley faces are a very commonly used type of graffiti and I believe it is more of a coincidence than anything. How do they know that someone didn't go back and put the smiley face there at a later time. Did Gannon and Duarte go and investigate each and everyone of these cases at the same time local LE was on the case?

Why I am not convinced of any of this still is that the smiley faces have NOT been found at all drowning sites, primarily the ones in Minnesota & Wisconsin, including Chris Jenkins. If these were truly all linked by the smiley graffiti then it would be at ALL of the places these drownings occurred.

If there truly was this hard evidence that Gannon and Duarte claim to have there would not be all the questions still looming and there would be charges filed.

Am I off my rocker??!! I need something logical and proven for me to believe them, isn't this why the FBI and LE have done nothing? Someone has figured out how to commit the perfect murder. I think it's just that simple.

So I hope I haven't offended anyone~this is just what I believe.

Pixie72--I'm right there with you. I think if there's any gang connection, it lies with the producers/sellers of any drugs used.
To me, the Wisconsin and Minnesota cases are the most clearly linked, and as you said, this is where there are no smiley face graffiti.
But, I am not discounting a woman's involvement, either as soloist or with a mate. Serial killing couples have existed, and who can forget Bonnie & Clyde?

[Pixie72]

Thank you PP! I can see there being a possibility that there is a woman involved or a couple as you suggest, the gang thing just seems highly unlikely. There is just too much room for error when you involve alot of people in that type of a crime. Who ever has orchestrated this weather it be one person or two is highly intelligent. They have to be in order to have eluded authorities for this long.

There is a case of a young man who they believe got away, his last name was Cullen I think. I found a link to an email his mother wrote describing what happened to him. He was in WI, he says he woke up in the river and found his way to Gunderson Lutheran ER. He says from a certain point, sometime after midnight he doesn't remember anything. This case leads me to believe there is a drug such as GHB involved.

With all the hype surrounding the "smiley face gang" important pieces of information I feel is now being over looked.

Somehow there is a connection between all these young men, something so simple that is right there in front of our face yet we just don't see it. SO FRUSTRATING!! I just want this to stop............

[Pixie72]

Okay the guy who got away is Cullen Fortney. I looked it up. Here is a link to a blog that has the email his mother sent about his ordeal. You have to scroll down a little to get to it:

http://www.rivervalleyblogs.com/archives/january2006.php

[RR0004]

Vermont-clear your messages, please...

[looneymama]

I just watched the video about a missing college student named Brandon Swanson, the interviewer on Fox asked the father if he thinks the "smiley face" gang could be responsible...
I am kinda pissed the lady asked the father that question (seemed very uncaring) but the father said he didnt know.

I agree, I don't think she needed to ask that. It sounded like he was having a hard time getting through that interview. I don't blame him...

[SheerLuck]

There are a lot of people that are into "tagging" that have no connections at all to gangs. Some just do it for the excitement of trying not to get caught, some do it to spread political messages, gangs are just a percentage of the different types of graffiti and are not the only people that refer to their specific marks or signatures as "tags"

Well; like I said; I'll keep an open mind. You're right that actual taggers by trade do more artistic artwork and they're usually not violent like street gangs; but if a cop uses the expression "grafitti tagging" in describing the scene of a killing; 99 out of 100 cops would immediately assume street gang killing. The grafitti behind the bar where Tommy Booth died; confused me; because it really matches what artistic taggers do; but artistic taggers don't commit senseless murders. It didn't have a lot of letters or numbers like street gang grafitti usually does and it didn't have satanist symbols either(at least none I'm aware of). The crown on the smiley reminded me of the Latin Kings from NYC and there was 1 symbol that was a bit like the Zodiac killer's signature, but the other symbols are a mystery to me. Here's link to video and midway through it has a full view of the grafitti wall which can be paused. Maybe someone here would know what a few of these symbols mean. To me it looks like a street gang hired an artistic tagger after Booth died. I think this is the only full wall of grafitti from 1 of these drownings

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6118869

[SheerLuck]

I don't think there was anyone who had a theory that these drownings were related to some sort of gang until Gannon and Duarte came out with their theory. Dr. Gillbertson and his students very clearly indicated that they felt it was one person and even came up with a profile of that one person. I think some people on here are getting their information confused.

I believe everyone has a right to their own theories and beliefs on this case but I truly believe it is not some sort of gang, that is my opinion. As far as it being proven that this is a gang, I don't think the "tagging" or "graffiti" proves Gannon's and Duarte's theory very convincingly. Smiley faces are a very commonly used type of graffiti and I believe it is more of a coincidence than anything. How do they know that someone didn't go back and put the smiley face there at a later time. Did Gannon and Duarte go and investigate each and everyone of these cases at the same time local LE was on the case?

Why I am not convinced of any of this still is that the smiley faces have NOT been found at all drowning sites, primarily the ones in Minnesota & Wisconsin, including Chris Jenkins. If these were truly all linked by the smiley graffiti then it would be at ALL of the places these drownings occurred.

If there truly was this hard evidence that Gannon and Duarte claim to have there would not be all the questions still looming and there would be charges filed.

Am I off my rocker??!! I need something logical and proven for me to believe them, isn't this why the FBI and LE have done nothing? Someone has figured out how to commit the perfect murder. I think it's just that simple.

So I hope I haven't offended anyone~this is just what I believe.

I didn't think these were street gangs either; but we'll see. You're not off your rocker; these are near perfect crimes and the detectives are still choosing to only show smileys and not the other graffitti. These crimes go back 11 years; so a lot of smileys could have faded away or been cleaned off. Also it's no guarantee that Gannon's technique using flow currents and GPS tracking figured out all the entry points accurately; so they might have missed some grafitti. In albany they investigated and found nothing and a week later a smiley was found by the father's daughter, so they missed that one or it was drawn later as either a twisted hoax; or to taunt Gannon

[SheerLuck]

Who ever has orchestrated this weather it be one person or two is highly intelligent.
Somehow there is a connection between all these young men, something so simple that is right there in front of our face yet we just don't see it. SO FRUSTRATING!! I just want this to stop............

The easiest person to harm is a young white drunk college male who's a good person, with little street sense. You don't have to be smart to make friends with them and drug their beer when they go to the bathroom. You just have to be a psychotic asshole. Since going public; Gannon said there were some close calls where the killers almost got caught. He said a kid and his friends contacted him. They said they left a bar and started to separate and 2 of the kids looked back and saw their friend being pushed into a van by 2 guys. They rescued their friend, had a fist fight and left. But didn't think to get the plate number

[DeltaDawn]

The easiest person to harm is a young white drunk college male who's a good person, with little street sense. You don't have to be smart to make friends with them and drug their beer when they go to the bathroom. You just have to be a psychotic asshole. Since going public; Gannon said there were some close calls where the killers almost got caught. He said a kid and his friends contacted him. They said they left a bar and started to separate and 2 of the kids looked back and saw their friend being pushed into a van by 2 guys. They rescued their friend, had a fist fight and left. But didn't think to get the plate number

On another site also discussing these crimes, I found that same incident described by the young man who was a few feet away literally of being put in the van. He was lucky his friends were so alert to what was happening. And he had been drugged, a female was used as bait, and two guys were leading him to a van holding him by his belt loops. When his friends realized what was going on they intervened. Since we aren't supposed to link to other forums I can't provide the link. But it was either another forum or a comment he wrote after one of the news articles..where people write in their own comments on the article.

[SeriouslySearching]

OK Back and have tons to catch up on. Where are we? Anything really new?

[RR0004]

OK Back and have tons to catch up on. Where are we? Anything really new?
So glad you're ok!!

[RR0004]

I've been reading all the recent posts about Gannon's theory not jiving with the Professor's and I was just wondering, could there be a connection between the killers? I'm trying to see outside the box, so to speak, 'cause I'm having a difficult time invisioning gangs...in the true sense of the word. But, what if it did all start with one psychotic killer who then got a network going online, perhaps? There are a bunch of sick people out there. I don't think it would take much. The internet (and it's information highway) has IMO created a very different kind of generation. You just never know.

Hope this makes sense. I just have this feeling...hard to put into words.

[SheerLuck]

On another site also discussing these crimes, I found that same incident described by the young man who was a few feet away literally of being put in the van. He was lucky his friends were so alert to what was happening. And he had been drugged, a female was used as bait, and two guys were leading him to a van holding him by his belt loops. When his friends realized what was going on they intervened. Since we aren't supposed to link to other forums I can't provide the link. But it was either another forum or a comment he wrote after one of the news articles..where people write in their own comments on the article.

If you can't send a link; can you cut and paste what the person wrote? Thats interesting; although its impossible to know if any given atempted abduction is the same gang that Gannon suspects in the other cases or an isolated incident. But if the kid was drugged, led out of the bar with a girl and 2 guys heading towards a van; that would seem to be the way. A good looking girl as bait makes sense, but friends of the victims seem to always say they got separated but they never say that they saw their friend with a girl. There's a case in the south; I think North Carolina last November; which I don't think has been mentioned by Gannon yet; but video shows the victim leaving the bar with a blonde girl in front of him and 2 guys behind him. I'll post that after work later and a few other cases I foubd that might be connected; 1 was Idaho I think

[nursebeeme]

Hey SS! I just finished catching up too! I have been busy in my huge vegetable garden (that I hope does not get sucked up by tornados! I am stationed in Kansas now and we have been having tons of those lately and right now actually LOL).

IMHOO, this is not the bloods and the crips. Again, it is just a feeling.

I also tend to think that the way these kids are abducted varies depending on the situation as some of the cases did not originate in bars. Most of the earlier cases did but then it was almost watcing this alleged group flower and bloom into even sicker and more perverse methodology.

I think that it is about WHO these kids are and them being "picked" and then whatever method meets that end.... it is used....but they all end up in water.

I think the dicks are for sure measuring their words in interviews and public statements to either "out" these persons or to inflame them....such to perhaps insight mistakes that could end in their undoing.

I know I have bumped this up so very many times....but I want to bump it again on methods of cult torture that do not involve leaving ANY marks whatsoever (one of them being near drowning as if you are going to end up putting a person in water near drowning torture is not going to show up on a post). Some others are hanging upside down, spinning, confining to a box, application of things to induce fear such as maggots, etc....list goes on...

http://truthbeknown2000.tripod.com/Truthbeknown2000/id22.html

Also another bump on some research I had done a while back on water cults:

Seems there is such a thing as a water cult that dates back to prechristianity where water was worshiped...sometimes with the use of sacrifice via drowning in the name of pagan gods. Then along came the christians and ~snip~ Consequently, with a veneer of Christianity, and the substitution of a saint's name, water worship has held its own to our day." (Bonser 1974 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#bonser1974), 29).

entire archeological article can be found here : http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html

Additionaly, ~snip~ "Where fresh water runs there runs spirit, and this is particularly so wherever water springs up from below the earth, for it comes from the realm of the earth goddess and bears her gifts. Properly every spring has its season of efficacy when its virtues are most generously displayed. In times before doctors, psychiatrists, marriage guidance officials, newspaper horoscopes, drugs and artificial fertilisers, all their functions were exercised by the spirits of the local springs, who required no payment but respect and attention" (Michell 1975 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#michell1975), quoted in Whelan and Taylor 1989 (http://www.antipope.org/feorag/wells/perth-talk.html#whelan1989), 8).


Perhaps there IS a connection to the catholic school?? These cases were all in different bodies of water 'from the earth'. Why did blood hounds pick up Chris Jenkins' scent at the catholic school when he did not go there to school? Hmmmm....

[SuziQ]

I just listened to the WGY podcast with Josh Szostak's father. Towards the end he discusses the evidence he's been able to go through. He's been able to determine that Josh left the bar wearing a hoodie over a white t-shirt with a leather jacket tied around his waist. But when he was found, the hoodie was gone, and the white t-shirt was over the jacket. Who puts a tshirt over a leather jacket?

Josh Szostak Case
Update with Bill Szostak.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/ALBANY-NY/WGY-AM/szostak.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=ALBANY-NY&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1155&STATION_ID=WGY-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=WGY&PCAST_CAT=news&PCAST_TITLE=Al_Roney_On-Demand

[nursebeeme]

dude...that is strange about the clothing changes. If we were to work backwards...what would be the reason to take the shirts off and then put them back on in that order? It seems like posing to me....

[SuziQ]

There weren't many with clothing removed and I found none with all of their clothing removed, but here is the break down for anyone interested;
Charles Blatz 9/28/97 missing one shoe/sock
Nathan Kapfer 2-22-98 hat, wallet & citations were neatly arranged near Indian Statue in the park
Chris Nordby 11/07/01 his bag was later discovered near Miss. river
Michael Noll 11/-06-02 he dropped his baseball hat inside of the house of an elderly woman, whose home he had walked into in the early morn hrs
Jared Dion 4-10-04 cap found hanging on a post nearby
Marlon Blue 4-17-04 shirt & cell ph found outside of bldg he was last seen
Adam Falcon 11-13-04 cell ph & hat found several blocks from bar last seen at
Josh Snell 6-12-05 two shirts found in owen park along W. bank of river



I'm bumping part of a post Az made regarding the clothing in other cases.

[SuziQ]

dude...that is strange about the clothing changes. If we were to work backwards...what would be the reason to take the shirts off and then put them back on in that order? It seems like posing to me....

I don't know. And it's going to drive me crazy.

[nursebeeme]

Also, SuziQ...one other thing I took from that radio broadcast above during the Gannon interview was this: Gannon stated that many of the possible vics had previous connections such as same town, same highschools, shared similar friends etc, but he would not go any further on it.

During that same interview, pertaining to the marks, tags, and regions...Gannon stated that the smiley was common in 1/13th...but that there were 12 other tags with 2-3 distinct ones being used in each region. Just using my common third grade multiplication and division I am surmising there are four known regions of gang activity but I have to listen back to it to get which states were part of which region.

Would it make sense to lump the cases by region instead of state due to what Gannon seems to be saying.

Ohio, PA and NY were one region for sure (and VT may also be included in this region as well...depending on what the dicks find after they go back to VT to investigate further)..

If these kids had common connections the connections could be regional and not just by state.....

[SuziQ]

Would it make sense to lump the cases by region instead of state due to what Gannon seems to be saying.

Ohio, PA and NY were one region for sure (and VT may also be included in this region as well...depending on what the dicks find after they go back to VT to investigate further)..

If these kids had common connections the connections could be regional and not just by state.....

It definitely would if we knew for sure what states were in which regions.

At the footprints site it does discuss connections in some of the cases. I'll have to go back and look.

[nursebeeme]

going back to listen again about the regions.....

[SuziQ]

Whoa, went to Footprints and right on the front page is a new post regarding coincidences. I'm hearing twilight zone music. I'm just snipping part for copyright reasons. You'll have to go to the link to read the rest:

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2008/06/six-degrees-of-separation.html

(snip)
Sunday, June 1, 2008

Six degrees of separation (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2008/06/six-degrees-of-separation.html)


#fullpost {display:none;}I am just starting the process of coming up with a list of odd coincidences between these cases. Here are a few I've found. I will try to keep adding to this list.

Lincoln: Olsen was last seen on Lincoln Hwy. Nick Rossini and Nathan Edberg's mothers worked at Lincoln Elementary School. Max Walker was from Lincoln, NE. Josh Stostak is believed to have last passed by Lincoln Park by Martin Luther King Monument. Brian Welzien spent his evening at a bar on Lincoln Street. [Note: There is also an area in Chicago known as Lincoln Park, but at this point, I do not know whether there is a connection to any of the Chicago men.] And, it may be a stretch, but Willie Jacobson was a member of a student group called Youth Against War and Racism (Lincoln was instrumental in ending slavery). (much more at link)

ETA: the two comments at the bottom of the page are interesting.

[nursebeeme]

suziQ...I hear ya! I am tingling too! Also...from part one of the radio interview around minute 17ish Gannon goes into a little regional detail and here is what I have taken notes on:

1)Wisconsin
2)Ohio, PA, and NY
3)Michigan and Minnisota
4)Illinois and Indiana

[nursebeeme]

those four things I posted above being regions that have regional specific tagging and also....could possibly have vics that are related within that region as well....at least worth looking into that is...

other things to look at regionally would be clothing issues (as mentioned above), cell phone locations, and other similarities in the situations surrounding the vanishings

[nursebeeme]

Suzi, as per footprints.... I agree about the two comments at the bottom of the page. They interested me the most after hearing Gannon speak about the connections between victims (even going so far as stating that some went to same highschools, had same friends etc).

For anyone thinking I am speaking to Gannon by tinfoil hat don't worry...it was from the previously linked radio interview that is earlier on this thread :-)

[nursebeeme]

interesting...on gang tagging and how it has moved to the internet and gone high tech. Gannon has already alluded to one email that had an isp that was untracable. I wouldn't be surprised if the gang grafitti is not all scratched on walls.....

http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1350153/gang_tagging_moves_to_the_internet/index.html

[SuziQ]

interesting...on gang tagging and how it has moved to the internet and gone high tech. Gannon has already alluded to one email that had an isp that was untracable. I wouldn't be surprised if the gang grafitti is not all scratched on walls.....

http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1350153/gang_tagging_moves_to_the_internet/index.html

I had not heard of that before. Very interesting.

[nursebeeme]

some more that I took from that radio spot linked above:

Gannon stated that the smilies were1/13 of the linked tags. He stated that the words written under the smiley tag were most likely left to taunt LE and was the one of the tags they had released to to MSM when they went national and that the media had latched onto the smiley and dubbed it the smiley gang. He further stated that in their own investigation they referred to it as the river killers....that they themselves had never centered all the cases around the smiley.

The smiley may not be a common linking factor in all the regions whatsoever.

IMHOO

[nursebeeme]

some possible new gang tag photos in Iowa related to Abel Bolanos case

http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-photos-in-smiley-face-killers.html

[daisygirl]

Whoa, went to Footprints and right on the front page is a new post regarding coincidences. I'm hearing twilight zone music. I'm just snipping part for copyright reasons. You'll have to go to the link to read the rest:

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2008/06/six-degrees-of-separation.html

(snip)
Sunday, June 1, 2008

Six degrees of separation (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2008/06/six-degrees-of-separation.html)


#fullpost {display:none;}I am just starting the process of coming up with a list of odd coincidences between these cases. Here are a few I've found. I will try to keep adding to this list.

Lincoln: Olsen was last seen on Lincoln Hwy. Nick Rossini and Nathan Edberg's mothers worked at Lincoln Elementary School. Max Walker was from Lincoln, NE. Josh Stostak is believed to have last passed by Lincoln Park by Martin Luther King Monument. Brian Welzien spent his evening at a bar on Lincoln Street. [Note: There is also an area in Chicago known as Lincoln Park, but at this point, I do not know whether there is a connection to any of the Chicago men.] And, it may be a stretch, but Willie Jacobson was a member of a student group called Youth Against War and Racism (Lincoln was instrumental in ending slavery). (much more at link)

ETA: the two comments at the bottom of the page are interesting.

Another coincidence, at least 3 victims were all college radio dj's.

[SheerLuck]

some possible new gang tag photos in Iowa related to Abel Bolanos case

http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-photos-in-smiley-face-killers.html

Never saw that link before; great post; if Gannon is broke he should have had those on CNN to attract real money. Those 3 sets of grafitti at one site is compelling. If these murders are connected; then I would think the monkey with the smiley is Gannon; that is; that it's being used to poke fun at Gannon. An obvious sign that this kid was probably murdered; especially if similiar monkey grafitti with a smiley is found at other sites. Sometimes murders go unsolved when the killers are smarter than the police; or when LE allows their egos to get in the way of getting help from the public. These murders are 11 years and counting. The Unabomber was 17 years and would have gone longer if the NY Times had listened to the morons at the FBI and not printed the manifesto.

[SuziQ]

Because of the year "2001" being scrawled on the monkey, I tend to believe it's not connected to the Belanos case. Unless there is some connected meaning to "2001". So far I'm not seeing it.

Link to the year 2001 at Footprints:
http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2001-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&updated-max=2002-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&max-results=4 (http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2001-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&updated-max=2002-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&max-results=4)

Link to the monkey grafitti:
http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-photos-in-smiley-face-killers.html

ETA: I assume the pic was taken recently and IMO, the paint looks too new to have been there since 2001. So who knows? What does 2001 mean?

[SuziQ]

Another coincidence, at least 3 victims were all college radio dj's.

I wonder if that includes Nick Garza. Wasn't he a DJ as well?

[SuziQ]

Going back to the clothing. In Szostak's case, info out there did not indicate a discrephancy in clothing until his father investigated further. Makes you wonder how many more clothing discrephancies there are in other cases.

[daisygirl]

I wonder if that includes Nick Garza. Wasn't he a DJ as well?

Yes, looks like it -Nick introduced and hosted his own rock show (“W.R.M. Sweet”) on WRMC, the College’s radio station.

http://www.middlebury.edu/administration/garza/

[daisygirl]

Suzi, as per footprints.... I agree about the two comments at the bottom of the page. They interested me the most after hearing Gannon speak about the connections between victims (even going so far as stating that some went to same highschools, had same friends etc).

For anyone thinking I am speaking to Gannon by tinfoil hat don't worry...it was from the previously linked radio interview that is earlier on this thread :-)

I also read somewhere that two of the drowning victims were teammates on the same wrestling team.

[SuziQ]

I also read somewhere that two of the drowning victims were teammates on the same wrestling team.

I remember that. I don't remember who though.

[daisygirl]

I remember that. I don't remember who though.

Okay, I found it. It was Matt Kruzinski and Jared Dion.

[SuziQ]

I've been reading all the recent posts about Gannon's theory not jiving with the Professor's and I was just wondering, could there be a connection between the killers? I'm trying to see outside the box, so to speak, 'cause I'm having a difficult time invisioning gangs...in the true sense of the word. But, what if it did all start with one psychotic killer who then got a network going online, perhaps? There are a bunch of sick people out there. I don't think it would take much. The internet (and it's information highway) has IMO created a very different kind of generation. You just never know.

Hope this makes sense. I just have this feeling...hard to put into words.

I know some don't agree with Lilly's connection to these cases, but again, he was part of an online drowning fetish club. Whether Lilly is connected or not, IMO, the online aspect is something that needs to be seriously considered. Especially since Gannon has stated that they believe some of the vics were targeted via the internet.

[SuziQ]

Okay, I found it. It was Matt Kruzinski and Jared Dion.

Thanks! I think there is a coincidences thread somewhere here isn't there? If there isn't there should be to keep track of these.

ETA: There is a thread for Similarities.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64051

[SheerLuck]

Because of the year "2001" being scrawled on the monkey, I tend to believe it's not connected to the Belanos case. Unless there is some connected meaning to "2001". So far I'm not seeing it.

Link to the year 2001 at Footprints:
http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2001-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&updated-max=2002-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-06%3A00&max-results=4

Link to the monkey grafitti:
http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-photos-in-smiley-face-killers.html

ETA: I assume the pic was taken recently and IMO, the paint looks too new to have been there since 2001. So who knows? What does 2001 mean?

I reread the link and all 3 were found on the same drainage ditch near Abel Bolanos drowning. I know taggers like to use a tag; which is their own unique signature. In NYC where much of this started;these people had their own little community and knew each other by their tags or signatures. So I guess Gannon is worried if he reveals the different tags; these people will be driven underground and bolt. But by saying he has 1,000's of pictures they might have all moved away anyway and set up shop in a new part of the country. Taggers often date their work, but I agree the 2001 looks much newer than 2001 and I don't think taggers use numbers as their signature. So maybe some other meaning. So now we have these 3 taggings at 1 site and the full wall of artistic taggings on the Botleggers back wall where Tommy Booth drowned. Also I think there was a smiley with a crown at the Nick Garza site in Vermont on a small shed; plus some artistc taggings drawn around the smiley on the shed. The shed in Vermont was wiped clean of the smiley and its grafitti, but I think there was an internet link that had the picture before someone cleaned off the grafitti. So far outside of the matching crowns in vermont and Pennsylvania; I dont think any of the other artwork has matched up.

[Blink34]

Okay, I found it. It was Matt Kruzinski and Jared Dion.

I'm coming back from a week abroad, so sorry if somebody's already addressed this, but Luke Homan was on the same team with Jared Dion.

[SheerLuck]

I just listened to the WGY podcast with Josh Szostak's father. Towards the end he discusses the evidence he's been able to go through. He's been able to determine that Josh left the bar wearing a hoodie over a white t-shirt with a leather jacket tied around his waist. But when he was found, the hoodie was gone, and the white t-shirt was over the jacket. Who puts a tshirt over a leather jacket?

Josh Szostak Case
Update with Bill Szostak.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/ALBANY-NY/WGY-AM/szostak.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=ALBANY-NY&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1155&STATION_ID=WGY-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=WGY&PCAST_CAT=news&PCAST_TITLE=Al_Roney_On-Demand

That's an odd one but also another example of why the idea of shutting the public out is often foolish and is the best way to never get a murder solved. My sympathies are with Bill Szostak, but it took him 5 months to catch this odd clothes change. What else has he missed that others would find right away? And Gannon met with him for hours so he to have also watched this film; yet he also missed that Josh put his t-shirt OVER a leather jacket??? And Szostak first said his son had $500 on him but was found with just $28; so maybe this was a simple abduction and robbery by a local crackhead who someone in Albany might quickly recognize in the film. What all these police units and now these families who are muzzled by Gannon; continue to miss; is that the countries best eyes and best defense are those of the general public.

[SheerLuck]

I just listened to the WGY podcast with Josh Szostak's father. Towards the end he discusses the evidence he's been able to go through. He's been able to determine that Josh left the bar wearing a hoodie over a white t-shirt with a leather jacket tied around his waist. But when he was found, the hoodie was gone, and the white t-shirt was over the jacket. Who puts a tshirt over a leather jacket?

Josh Szostak Case
Update with Bill Szostak.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/ALBANY-NY/WGY-AM/szostak.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=ALBANY-NY&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1155&STATION_ID=WGY-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=WGY&PCAST_CAT=news&PCAST_TITLE=Al_Roney_On-Demand

Listening to this podcast link reminded me of something. Al Roney starts near the beginning by saying how college kids have always drank so why are they falling in rivers now. He asks what's changed. I couldn't help but think about ecstacy when he said that because it was in the mid '90's when ecstacy started getting really popular at the club scene. I know the past 5 years or so has seen a lot of kids switch from ecstacy to GHB as their drug of choice, but I'm wondering now if maybe kids switched to GHB more than 5 years ago; like maybe 10 years ago and maybe a lot of these drownings are really just accidents. Read what kids say who have quit taking GHB for recreation and its amazing more kids aren't dieing from this crap

[SuziQ]

I'm coming back from a week abroad, so sorry if somebody's already addressed this, but Luke Homan was on the same team with Jared Dion.

Welcome back! I found this though.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2006/11/122305-matt-kruziki-dubuque-ia.html

Strange coincidence
In a strange coincidence, Matt was the second Arrowhead graduate to go missing near the Mississippi River. For a time, Matt and drowning victim, Jared Dion, were varsity wrestling teammates.

[SeriouslySearching]

Sadly, I see it is still being fed here.

OK Internet is back up and I am ready to get back to business here.

[SeriouslySearching]

I'm coming back from a week abroad, so sorry if somebody's already addressed this, but Luke Homan was on the same team with Jared Dion.Welcome home, Blink!! :blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

That's an odd one but also another example of why the idea of shutting the public out is often foolish and is the best way to never get a murder solved. My sympathies are with Bill Szostak, but it took him 5 months to catch this odd clothes change. What else has he missed that others would find right away? And Gannon met with him for hours so he to have also watched this film; yet he also missed that Josh put his t-shirt OVER a leather jacket??? And Szostak first said his son had $500 on him but was found with just $28; so maybe this was a simple abduction and robbery by a local crackhead who someone in Albany might quickly recognize in the film. What all these police units and now these families who are muzzled by Gannon; continue to miss; is that the countries best eyes and best defense are those of the general public.

It boggles my mind that Albany PD would close this case as accidental drowning with the clothing and money details here. And after listening to Gannon's podcast on what Szostak would have had to do to accomplish everything Albany PD said is absurd. Breaking through a locked gate, wiping everything clean, etc. etc. That's quite an accomplishment for someone that's been written off as a drunk that accidentally drowned!

In so many of these cases it's the same thing. LE says they were so drunk they fell in a river. But at the same time they were able to have walked blocks to the river, walk across sharp rip rap to the water, and in one case cross a busy eight lane highway.

[SeriouslySearching]

I just listened to the WGY podcast with Josh Szostak's father. Towards the end he discusses the evidence he's been able to go through. He's been able to determine that Josh left the bar wearing a hoodie over a white t-shirt with a leather jacket tied around his waist. But when he was found, the hoodie was gone, and the white t-shirt was over the jacket. Who puts a tshirt over a leather jacket?

Josh Szostak Case
Update with Bill Szostak.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/ALBANY-NY/WGY-AM/szostak.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=ALBANY-NY&NG_FORMAT=newstalk&SITE_ID=1155&STATION_ID=WGY-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=WGY&PCAST_CAT=news&PCAST_TITLE=Al_Roney_On-DemandNo one would put a tee on over a leather jacket. Makes no logical sense and would mean he had to be undressed at least from the waist up at one point. It sounds like the person/persons who redressed him did it on purpose this way...so why?

[SuziQ]

No one would put a tee on over a leather jacket. Makes no logical sense and would mean he had to be undressed at least from the waist up at one point. It sounds like the person/persons who redressed him did it on purpose this way...so why?

And that is driving me nuts. And where is his hoodie?

[SeriouslySearching]

Exactly! Trophy?! Is someone wearing it right now?

[ArizonaGiGi]

Also, SuziQ...one other thing I took from that radio broadcast above during the Gannon interview was this: Gannon stated that many of the possible vics had previous connections such as same town, same highschools, shared similar friends etc, but he would not go any further on it.

During that same interview, pertaining to the marks, tags, and regions...Gannon stated that the smiley was common in 1/13th...but that there were 12 other tags with 2-3 distinct ones being used in each region. Just using my common third grade multiplication and division I am surmising there are four known regions of gang activity but I have to listen back to it to get which states were part of which region.

Would it make sense to lump the cases by region instead of state due to what Gannon seems to be saying.

this region as well...depending on what the dicks find after they go back to VT to investigate further)..

If these kids had common connections the connections could be regional and not just by state.....

I remember reading (footprintsattheriversedge) that some of the guys had parents that worked at the same place etc.
I am currently out of town, but when I get back I will research this and post asap.

[SuziQ]

Exactly! Trophy?! Is someone wearing it right now?

This entire case is so puzzling. Just trying to figure out what happened where is enough to give you a headache. I may have this wrong. So correct me if I do. Josh heads one way, changes his mind and goes another to steal a vehicle that's behind a locked gate. Later determined not to have stolen the vehicle but his cell phone is found by said vehicle that was abandoned a block away from where it was stolen. Then he is found in water much farther than walking distance from where he was last seen and where his phone was found. And to top it off his clothing is rearranged in a bizarre manner.

[SuziQ]

I remember reading (footprintsattheriversedge) that some of the guys had parents that worked at the same place etc.
I am currently out of town, but when I get back I will research this a post asap.

Thank you! Tomorrow I will gather up all this info and put it into the similarities thread so we don't lose it.

[ArizonaGiGi]

hey, suzyQ u still there?

[ArizonaGiGi]

I was just on the Nick Garza thread forum thingy
They said that Nick was last seen in a RED T SHIRT BUT WHEN THEY FOUND HIM HE HAD THE A BLUE HOODIE OVER THE RED T :eek::eek:


EDIT; Just listened to Josh's dad on the radio, he was wearing a BLACK sweatshirt with skull and crossbones. Nick Garza was found with a BLUE hoodie.

[SheerLuck]

It boggles my mind that Albany PD would close this case as accidental drowning with the clothing and money details here. And after listening to Gannon's podcast on what Szostak would have had to do to accomplish everything Albany PD said is absurd. Breaking through a locked gate, wiping everything clean, etc. etc. That's quite an accomplishment for someone that's been written off as a drunk that accidentally drowned!

In so many of these cases it's the same thing. LE says they were so drunk they fell in a river. But at the same time they were able to have walked blocks to the river, walk across sharp rip rap to the water, and in one case cross a busy eight lane highway.

You're exactly right and if you knew the Albany area where Josh Szostak disappeared from; it would be even more mind boggling to you and others. There are no colleges near either of the bars he drank at; unlike most of these drownings. Szostak went from a decent place(Blue Bayou) in a fairly rough neighborhood; to a bar called the Elbo Room; which is located in a terrible neightborhood. 5 weeks after Szostak disapearred; there was a triple homocide a block away from the Elbo Room; comitted by a drunk drug addict. Its a crack neighborhood; so he had to be drugged or extremely drunk to be walking alone in that neighborhood. The Albany Police are a fine unit so I hope they reconsider opening the case

[SheerLuck]

This entire case is so puzzling. Just trying to figure out what happened where is enough to give you a headache. I may have this wrong. So correct me if I do. Josh heads one way, changes his mind and goes another to steal a vehicle that's behind a locked gate. Later determined not to have stolen the vehicle but his cell phone is found by said vehicle that was abandoned a block away from where it was stolen. Then he is found in water much farther than walking distance from where he was last seen and where his phone was found. And to top it off his clothing is rearranged in a bizarre manner.

Thats basically it. Although where his body was found was 28 miles downstream from his cell phone; but it 4 months later after he disappeared. The Albany Police determined about where his body might have gone in the water; which was a few miles from the cell phone; and when Bill Szostak went to that general area; his daughter saw the smiley. Then the autopsy was done and the case was immediately closed; even befoe toxicology had come back

[SeriouslySearching]

I was just on the Nick Garza thread forum thingy
They said that Nick was last seen in a RED T SHIRT BUT WHEN THEY FOUND HIM HE HAD THE A BLUE HOODIE OVER THE RED T :eek::eek:That is interesting. What is the reason for the clothing discrepancies? If they are undressing them...this would indicate a physical implication of torture possibly. I wonder if it was in fact his own blue hoodie?

[SheerLuck]

No one would put a tee on over a leather jacket. Makes no logical sense and would mean he had to be undressed at least from the waist up at one point. It sounds like the person/persons who redressed him did it on purpose this way...so why?

To get noticed and to taunt Gannon. He has a good heart, so it makes it all the more fun. And his partner is a big muscle guy, which adds to the fun. It's become a game

[SuziQ]

I was just on the Nick Garza thread forum thingy
They said that Nick was last seen in a RED T SHIRT BUT WHEN THEY FOUND HIM HE HAD THE A BLUE HOODIE OVER THE RED T :eek::eek:


EDIT; Just listened to Josh's dad on the radio, he was wearing a BLACK sweatshirt with skull and crossbones. Nick Garza was found with a BLUE hoodie.

I've been following the clothing discussion today in Nicks thread with great interest.

[ArizonaGiGi]

That is interesting. What is the reason for the clothing discrepancies? If they are undressing them...this would indicate a physical implication of torture possibly. I wonder if it was in fact his own blue hoodie?

Ya I wanna know if the blue hoodie Nick was found in belonged to HIM? Anybody able to ask his Mom?

[ArizonaGiGi]

Josh's dad also said that Josh was missing not only the hoodie but his undershirt. So Josh was wearing an undershirt, a white Union Firefighters T shirt a "South Pole (brand?) black hoodie with skull and crossbones, and a lighter jacket tied around his waist.
When he was found he had the lighter jacket next to his skin with the fire dept. T over the jacket.

I couldn't figure out why they put the T OVER the jacket until I found out it was a UNION FIREFIGHTERS T-shirt.
They wanted to make sure the police saw the Union Firefighters logo. duh

[SeriouslySearching]

That could be the message, but for some reason I think that is too blatent. LE would have seen it anyway.

I will have to give this some thought.

[ArizonaGiGi]

Blatant it was. I think that was their point.
I was waffling between accident and murder. Up until now.
After hearing about the T-shirt OVER the jacket, I now am convinced it's murder.

[SeriouslySearching]

A young male concerned about his appearance (which most boys are)...would NEVER wear a tee over the jacket...no matter how drunk they were! They would have simply put the jacket on with nothing under it instead if they were that out of it. Shirtless...would make much more sense.

I am more concerned with why his shirt was off in the first place. It is significant.

[Blink34]

It boggles my mind that Albany PD would close this case as accidental drowning with the clothing and money details here. And after listening to Gannon's podcast on what Szostak would have had to do to accomplish everything Albany PD said is absurd. Breaking through a locked gate, wiping everything clean, etc. etc. That's quite an accomplishment for someone that's been written off as a drunk that accidentally drowned!

In so many of these cases it's the same thing. LE says they were so drunk they fell in a river. But at the same time they were able to have walked blocks to the river, walk across sharp rip rap to the water, and in one case cross a busy eight lane highway.

S
Remind you of any case?? Of course Im being facetious-
The more I see this scenario, the more convinced I am that depending on the area and chain of jurisdiction, its really not that hard to get away with "offing" somebody. So many of us are diligent in our research and study on forensics, theories, crime mapping, profiles, etc.. It's like the murder handbook written by the folks who penned the popular 80's K.I.S.S. Sales methodology, but for murder. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to truly get to the bottom of this is to NOT connect the cases, analyze each one on it's own as a sort of Monday am quarterback, and following that distillation, see what's left.

[Blink34]

A young male concerned about his appearance (which most boys are)...would NEVER wear a tee over the jacket...no matter how drunk they were! They would have simply put the jacket on with nothing under it instead if they were that out of it. Shirtless...would make much more sense.

I am more concerned with why his shirt was off in the first place. It is significant.

Was there anything found in the pockets of the lighter jacket?

[DeltaDawn]

I wonder if his body was positioned..arms folded across his chest..in atleast two of the cases Chris Jenkins and Tommy Booth..that was the case. I think there are probably more that were positioned, but we haven't been told that by the detectives or LE.

[Blink34]

DD, OT-
heard you were ill- you ok?

In my research, I cannot find where the detectives believe that Tommy was posed. I think it was posted by a family member, but I could not find it

[SuziQ]

I wonder if his body was positioned..arms folded across his chest..in atleast two of the cases Chris Jenkins and Tommy Booth..that was the case. I think there are probably more that were positioned, but we haven't been told that by the detectives or LE.

Or oddly dressed. The question is did anyone bother to take the time to look and make notes?

[SheerLuck]

A young male concerned about his appearance (which most boys are)...would NEVER wear a tee over the jacket...no matter how drunk they were! They would have simply put the jacket on with nothing under it instead if they were that out of it. Shirtless...would make much more sense.

I am more concerned with why his shirt was off in the first place. It is significant.

I guess it could mean a lot of things. It could be a way of just taunting Gannon. Maybe there's a killer who wants to be recognized. It could mean there was something sexual involved. And to the skeptics who might blame the victim due to overindulgence and too much alcohol mixed with drugs; it could mean a kid who was so wasted they just didn't know what they were doing

[SuziQ]

S
Remind you of any case?? Of course Im being facetious-
The more I see this scenario, the more convinced I am that depending on the area and chain of jurisdiction, its really not that hard to get away with "offing" somebody. So many of us are diligent in our research and study on forensics, theories, crime mapping, profiles, etc.. It's like the murder handbook written by the folks who penned the popular 80's K.I.S.S. Sales methodology, but for murder. I have come to the conclusion that the only way to truly get to the bottom of this is to NOT connect the cases, analyze each one on it's own as a sort of Monday am quarterback, and following that distillation, see what's left.

There is probably so much info out there, if anyone noted it, that we haven't seen. It would mean so much more to us than to LE who immediately wrote the cases off as accidents. I would love to see the autopsy reports for starters.

[Blink34]

I guess it could mean a lot of things. It could be a way of just taunting Gannon. Maybe there's a killer who wants to be recognized. It could mean there was something sexual involved. And to the skeptics who might blame the victim due to overindulgence and too much alcohol mixed with drugs; it could mean a kid who was so wasted they just didn't know what they were doing

Gannon's involvement was only made public in late April. Josh went missing 12/23/07. What does the shirt have to do with something sexual?
As far as I know, the tox is not back yet on Josh, so not sure where you are going with the blame the victim scenario?

I'm with SS and AG on this one, it is significant to the killer (s) and it has a subtle message to someone. Question is- who?

[SeriouslySearching]

You are right, Blink. Investigating individual cases is the route to go. As a whole, the commonalities will begin to emerge easier and the larger picture will be more clear.

Perhaps Duarte and Gannon have holes in their theories which is the problem with them not being more forthcoming with information. I don't know that I agree with the Professor's theories either, but I do know that we are great on the research front here. Too bad we don't have more access to information gleaned from the actual investigations.

[Blink34]

There is probably so much info out there, if anyone noted it, that we haven't seen. It would mean so much more to us than to LE who immediately wrote the cases off as accidents. I would love to see the autopsy reports for starters.

That's a really good thought, anyone want to weigh in on the general availability of autopsy reports of closed cases that are obviously not sealed? Might make sense to assign the research on this by logistics for any volunteers?

[SeriouslySearching]

I believe that autopsy reports are always public even if the cases are closed. We should be able to obtain those some way. If Rotten.com can get them...we can, too! The problem is having people in that location to be able to obtain them in person. I don't know if they take mail in requests for such.

[SheerLuck]

Gannon's involvement was only made public in late April. Josh went missing 12/23/07. What does the shirt have to do with something sexual?
As far as I know, the tox is not back yet on Josh, so not sure where you are going with the blame the victim scenario?

I'm with SS and AG on this one, it is significant to the killer (s) and it has a subtle message to someone. Question is- who?

Gannon has said that the colorful orange smiley with evil happy man in Iowa from March 2007 was left to taunt him. I think what he meant is the killers are leaving these smiley faces; at least partly to taunt and make fun of the police; be it him or other cops. So I speculated that changing the shirts might also be a joke on the cops; plus a way to yell out to the FBI and to all these cops; that these murders are connected and will continue. My comment about the shirt being linked to something sexual is a simple reference that any clothes being changed; after an abduction and before or after a death; could mean there is something sexual happening to the victims. I don't see these crimes as being sex related, but at this point; I don't think it makes sense to rule anything out. As for my "blame the victim" point: Lots of people who are skeptical of Gannons case; simply blame the victims. So skeptics would say that these kids are so completely disorientated from drugs and booze that they can't even put their clothes on right.

[SheerLuck]

No one would put a tee on over a leather jacket. Makes no logical sense and would mean he had to be undressed at least from the waist up at one point. It sounds like the person/persons who redressed him did it on purpose this way...so why?

Another speculative idea about the meaning of the white t-shirt is that it could relate to street gangs. For whatever reason it sounds like the white t-shirt was intended to be noticed. Lots of gangs; including some in Albany; have moved away from blue, red and other colored t-shirts and over to the over sized white T-shirts. White attracts less attention and let's them blend in better. Picture being a cop and looking for a 5 foot 11 inch black man, with a medium build; wearing an oversized white t-shirt and baggy blue jeans.

[ArizonaGiGi]

Gannon's involvement was only made public in late April. Josh went missing 12/23/07. What does the shirt have to do with something sexual?
As far as I know, the tox is not back yet on Josh, so not sure where you are going with the blame the victim scenario?

I'm with SS and AG on this one, it is significant to the killer (s) and it has a subtle message to someone. Question is- who?

imo the msg is directly to the cops. "look what we did in your backyard".

Police and Firefighters are the unsung heroes. The fightersof crime, rescuers of victims, etc etc. I think from a criminals viewpoint Cops and Firefighters are in the same corner so to speak. I think that when the killers found the Union Firefighters T-shirt Josh was wearing they thought..."BONUS" and made sure to make their statement to the cops by putting it on the outside of Josh's jacket. As SL said, it's pretty blatant. I think it couldn't have been any more blatant or 'in your face' to the cops than to have their brethren (firefighters) logo staring the cops in the face when they discovered Josh.

[SeriouslySearching]

I think it is too blatent. It isn't their style and the reason I don't think it is directed at LE.

[SheerLuck]

imo the msg is directly to the cops. "look what we did in your backyard".


That's what I think also. These gangs are committing what they think is a near perfect crime and their laughing at the police by leaving similiar clues in different states. They're confident they'll get away with the crime because they know police hate sharing info with other cops; and that they only care about their own city. In the big picture; they're actually exposing a serious vulnerbility in America's overall defense and I guess that's why Gannon's website is Nationwide Detectives; it's sort of like we need a second FBI.

The podcast of Bill Szostak is confusing. Was the shirt over the jacket a white t-shirt or the firemens shirt?

[DeltaDawn]

The fireman's shirt was over the jacket. So someone purposely posed him in those clothes in that way.

Interestingly, the monkey with the smiley had 2001 written across his chest..the biggest thing that happened that year was 9/11, which firefighters were the true heroes.

Not saying this is associated at all...infact I was thinking that the 2001 did mean that one of the vics from 2001 was perhaps the key to solving this puzzle.
Maybe they left some crucial info at that scene that has been over looked and they keep pointing back to that...tauntingly.
Right now I cannot find the link to those 3 pics, one of which was the monkey.

I have a request. Might we start putting all articles and media links not just here, but also in the media and article threads, too? We have amassed may links that are going missing or hard to find because they aren't in the media link thread, but in the discussion threads. This way when we want to go back and research a portion of an article or podcast we know we'll be able to find it under those threads.

[SeriouslySearching]

What monkey?!

Of course! Put them wherever you like! :) Feel free to start individual threads for those media links, too.

[DeltaDawn]

What monkey?!

Of course! Put them wherever you like! :) Feel free to start individual threads for those media links, too.

That's one of the links I am trying to find now SS. It has three pics of graffiti, one was a monkey with 2001 across it's chest.

Here is the link. Scroll all the way down the page the monkey is at the bottom.

http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-photos-in-smiley-face-killers.html

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks! What gang is supposed to be associated to that hand sign?

[RR0004]

DD- I'm glad you made the reference to 9/11...when reading the conversation taking place on the board about its significance...that's exactly the reference that came to my mind.
DD- I'm glad you made the reference to 9/11...when reading the conversation taking place on the board about its significance...that's exactly the reference that came to my mind.

[SheerLuck]

Thanks! What gang is supposed to be associated to that hand sign?

Des Moines is only half hour away from Ames Iowa and researching Des Moines gangs; there are 18 prominent gangs mentioned in a link I found. The only tag or signature I can see in the monkey pic is that little s underneath one of the ears. Maybe a signature or tag is on the bottom where the picture is cut off, which would be unfortunate. A date is rarely a taggers signature. I would think 2001 is when this gang gained some turf in Iowa or maybe when they rose in power in America, but it could be what others here have speculated on. Here is a link that has the picture of the grafitti on the shed in Vermont; that might or might nor be connedtec to teh Nick Garza case. The Vermont police say it is old grafitti; but can they be trusted?

<redacted at written request of copyright holder>

[RR0004]

Des Moines is only half hour away from Ames Iowa and researching Des Moines gangs; there are 18 prominent gangs mentioned in a link I found. The only tag or signature I can see in the monkey pic is that little s underneath one of the ears. Maybe a signature or tag is on the bottom where the picture is cut off, which would be unfortunate. A date is rarely a taggers signature. I would think 2001 is when this gang gained some turf in Iowa or maybe when they rose in power in America, but it could be what others here have speculated on. Here is a link that has the picture of the grafitti on the shed in Vermont; that might or might nor be connedtec to teh Nick Garza case. The Vermont police say it is old grafitti; but can they be trusted?

<redacted at written request of copyright holder>
Well, I for sure wouldn't have run and washed it off in light of what's been going on.

Is it me, or does the "smiley-face, crown guy" look to be part of a word?

[SheerLuck]

I have a request. Might we start putting all articles and media links not just here, but also in the media and article threads, too? .

I'd ask someone here with more Websleuth experience to be even more specific and star a link that has only grafitti. I don't know how to start link s here. Gannon feels it's the grafitti and the specific tags or signatures that serves as the calling card for these kilers. So it's the grafitti and the signature tags that will solve this case; yet Gannon is purposely hiding this from the public; with the exception of a few smiley faces. He says the smileys are only 12/13th of the grafitti, but he doesn't release the 1000's of other pictures that have the killers signatures. All we have besides smileys; is the Iowa link with the monkey and the happy evil smiley in orange; plus the Nick Garza Vermont shed which I just posted and the Tommy Booth full wall of grafitti that was behind Bootleggers bar. Here is a video link that has the full wall; it's found midway through this video news report, but I don't know how to get just the picture from the video. The only other wall grafitti pic I found is ironically from Websleuths and SS. It doesn't have the full wall but is only one on web I found

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/SeriouslySearching/smileyfacewithcrown2-1.jpg

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6118869

[SheerLuck]

Well, I for sure wouldn't have run and washed it off in light of what's been going on.

Is it me, or does the "smiley-face, crown guy" look to be part of a word?

It does, but only gang experts or actual members of gangs know what the words and letters mean. I didn't think these were street gang killings but it all fits now because Gannon is purposely hiding 12/13th of the grafitti; except smileys and who else besides street gangs and artisitic taggers are into grafitti?

[nursebeeme]

That could be the message, but for some reason I think that is too blatent. LE would have seen it anyway. that was from ss....


DITTO SS! And it is so freaking simple that they do not see it beyond the bar, and the alcohol consumption, and the drowning(s)... I believe we have found our trophy people! (at least in a few of the 'regions' anyhow....and it is seeming like this is a common one in the Gannon~stated region of Ohio, PA, NY, and VT)

[nursebeeme]

I'm coming back from a week abroad, so sorry if somebody's already addressed this, but Luke Homan was on the same team with Jared Dion.


WELCOME HOME BLINKEDY~BLINKEDY~BLINK!!!! :-)

[nursebeeme]

It boggles my mind that Albany PD would close this case as accidental drowning with the clothing and money details here. And after listening to Gannon's podcast on what Szostak would have had to do to accomplish everything Albany PD said is absurd. Breaking through a locked gate, wiping everything clean, etc. etc. That's quite an accomplishment for someone that's been written off as a drunk that accidentally drowned!

In so many of these cases it's the same thing. LE says they were so drunk they fell in a river. But at the same time they were able to have walked blocks to the river, walk across sharp rip rap to the water, and in one case cross a busy eight lane highway.


DITTO SUZIQ! All of it makes me say....where were you LE people during homicide 101!

[nursebeeme]

To get noticed and to taunt Gannon. He has a good heart, so it makes it all the more fun. And his partner is a big muscle guy, which adds to the fun. It's become a game


SL....I agree.... Gannon and Duarte are the only ones really paying attention and, allegedly, also have the handle on a few of the murderers. The murderers KNOW that LE is blowing it off like the summer fluff off a dandylion....so of course they would taunt. You are right. They are more than likely taunting those onto their game. Next thing you know they will have a WS in their grafiti! Damn fools. I hope we catch them before that can ever happen (and trust me any river killers reading this...your days are numbered! We are onto you!)

[nursebeeme]

The fireman's shirt was over the jacket. So someone purposely posed him in those clothes in that way.

Interestingly, the monkey with the smiley had 2001 written across his chest..the biggest thing that happened that year was 9/11, which firefighters were the true heroes.

Not saying this is associated at all...infact I was thinking that the 2001 did mean that one of the vics from 2001 was perhaps the key to solving this puzzle.
Maybe they left some crucial info at that scene that has been over looked and they keep pointing back to that...tauntingly.
Right now I cannot find the link to those 3 pics, one of which was the monkey.


I have a request. Might we start putting all articles and media links not just here, but also in the media and article threads, too? We have amassed may links that are going missing or hard to find because they aren't in the media link thread, but in the discussion threads. This way when we want to go back and research a portion of an article or podcast we know we'll be able to find it under those threads.

amen DD! perhaps 9/11 calls out to these murdering nincompoops! In what way? Why? Could this speak a little to what age group of murderers we are dealing with (esp if we consider the starting years in the late 90's in LA CROSSE WISCONSIN????)? No matter what...we cannot forget that a large concentration of related cases not only started there but were committed there in general. It is the roots of the evil plant of the river killers. WHY?

[SeriouslySearching]

Are you aware of the huge population of Iraqis, Saudis, etc. in the Michigan area who quite possibly are Muslim extremists?

[DeltaDawn]

Des Moines is only half hour away from Ames Iowa and researching Des Moines gangs; there are 18 prominent gangs mentioned in a link I found. The only tag or signature I can see in the monkey pic is that little s underneath one of the ears. Maybe a signature or tag is on the bottom where the picture is cut off, which would be unfortunate. A date is rarely a taggers signature. I would think 2001 is when this gang gained some turf in Iowa or maybe when they rose in power in America, but it could be what others here have speculated on. Here is a link that has the picture of the grafitti on the shed in Vermont; that might or might nor be connedtec to teh Nick Garza case. The Vermont police say it is old grafitti; but can they be trusted?

<redacted at written request of copyright holder>

I noticed there is an s or a stylized s in several of the pics..Iowa, Nick's and Tommy's.

[SeriouslySearching]

The monkey is making a hand sign. The ring finger is down.

I found one like it. It looks like it could be one of the signs of the Sorenos gang.

http://www.knowgangs.com/gang_resources/handsigns/menu_009.htm

Look at the left hand of the guy in the white t-shirt on the far left side.

LOL I also found it another place calling it the "shocker" and it is a sexual thing. Hmmm..interesting.

[DeltaDawn]

SS it does look very similiar. I wonder what it means?

[nursebeeme]

SS....yes...am very aware.... perhaps we should start an, 'in your face' thread'.. We are (my family) 16 year army officer military vets (and currently in the fight) and I am frankly sick of how they can slip in here and there in various guises of supposed innocence. SS....are you thinking this could be another variation here? Please share (even if thru pm)

[nursebeeme]

again SS....along the same thread....this would well match the planning, calculation, and fame such groups crave and seek in the threads of our own society. It is an avenue well worth walking down, if you ask me... although, for this group it would seem small fish to me....to hunt down college kids....but someone on the off~side of it...someone who wished they could be on the larger scale....could well have started his or her own "off group" picking off the strong and agile on our side of the pond.

[SeriouslySearching]

I am thinking that we need to take it into consideration. To me, this isn't a normal street gang activity. I have never seen it and still don't. It is something much more.

[nursebeeme]

To me, this isn't a normal street gang activity. I have never seen it and still don't. It is something much more.

DAMN! Why didn't I see this before! Thank you SS! This makes complete sense to me and I am seriously on the horn right now to the MI guys I know (and one lives right over the sidewalk from me). This makes sense! so much so that it AT THE LEAST MUST BE RULED OUT. And local LE would not do it. never. not in a stitch. If it aint straight up murder like he said she said...it is written off.... dude...let me pass it on and see what happens here....... I am on it.

[nursebeeme]

did you ever feel like a complete idot for asking someone what they thought on a case. Hello. please indoctrinate me now! As for any possible ME gang language or tags we may look for in this case my CID neighbor states he knows none (skeptically I might add) but directed me to CID headquarters. I am crushed but will push on. And someone please send flowers to my neighbor because he thinks I am half baked LOL! (not like I care as I know that the truth is waiting to be found lol)!

[nursebeeme]

and by ANY AND ALL MEANS do not let what my peon neighbor said disturb anything among this thinking thread... we must keep thinking up it. He was not a contact that could yield even a thimblefull of yeah or ney equivacably. I do not think that previous line of thinking is dead or ruled out at all..... I myself will keep digging and posting as I find.... no matter how long or hard the dig gets. Here is to us, WSers! Keep on keepin on.....

[nursebeeme]

wow my English sucked..as usual says my family lol....in the last few posts. Sorry. My degrees belie it... though my spelling sure as hell doesn't LOL!!!!```````

[nursebeeme]

BLINK SAVE ME! i AM FEELING A NEED HERE TO KEEP THE TALK FLOWING! LOL...welcome back from your long and overseas trip!

[nursebeeme]

hi siesie...what say you?

[nursebeeme]

ok....I will shut up now....to thanks of all I am sure LOL...but for the love of all gods (big and small) keep up the convo on this very, very, very, important crime. It is cooking right under us in pots we do not even know exist.

[Blink34]

BLINK SAVE ME! i AM FEELING A NEED HERE TO KEEP THE TALK FLOWING! LOL...welcome back from your long and overseas trip!

NBM- thank you. Unfortunately, my trip abroad leaves me in an even larger quandry-
This freakin graffiti, and I do mean IDENTICAL, is all over EUROPE, in unrelated areas, with no crimes attatched- I have said early on I thought this was a red herring, now I am about 90%.

So posing the question- if the graffiti is unrelated- then what?

[nursebeeme]

blink, I hear ya...and rather am witness to what you have seen (if you were in points eastern where I lived for a good ten years of my life)..

were there any tags differing in the two cases (with the select amt we have been dished)?

It is hard, no doubt, to tell with the large amt of doodles in urban europe in general. Nonetheless....what the hell is up with the clothing disection of the vics? I BET IT MEANS SOMETHING..... hoodies, tees, jackets and socks not ending up where they should....hoodies, tees, jackets, socks, cell phones, keys, and other things, ending up in areas that the body doesnt and nothing makes sense.

Nothng makes sense at all.

[nursebeeme]

hey RR...what do you think? I am just sitting here wondering and hoping that this is solved soon...and also listening to my kansas weather radio that says I may be ripped apart by a tornado in short order! the damn thing is off the air which is unsettling when the sky is ORAGE at eleven at night!

[nursebeeme]

hi arizonagigi!

[ArizonaGiGi]

hi arizonagigi!

Hi! You twirling in the air yet?

[nursebeeme]

AGG, not twirling but still here....and trying to find out any and all army intell I can pertaining to gang tags (mid east and otherwise) that could relate to this case. Dang I am tired and need to refresh my lemondade pitcher LOL

[ArizonaGiGi]

brb, gonna go look at the monkeys hand and compare it to the link SS posted of the gangs

[nursebeeme]

After Capts posts I have myself been scubbing the net for anything on cults that stretch thru that particular band of Wisconsin. Any published has not fit the bill online yet...so far...but I am not planning on finding out any info via that means anyhow....it is just to 'out there' to be searchable by any electronic means. I cannot declare that, 'if it is out there I will find it'...but I CAN SAY....if it is out there and I didn't find it it is damn lucky! Because I looked everywhere I could think of!

[ArizonaGiGi]

nurse, i can't find the monkey graffiti. saw it last night but can't rember where tis at. u know where?

[nursebeeme]

dude...agg...I posted it back on page 12 or so...hold on and I can find the exact spot but it was related directly to the kid....post in his name....

[nursebeeme]

BUMP


some possible new gang tag photos in Iowa related to Abel Bolanos case

http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.co...e-killers.html (http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.com/2008/05/new-photos-in-smiley-face-killers.html)


I think this may have been what you were looking for...if not...let me know....

[nursebeeme]

goodnight all..... sleep well.
~the nurse

[SheerLuck]

Are you aware of the huge population of Iraqis, Saudis, etc. in the Michigan area who quite possibly are Muslim extremists?

Not just Michigan; Muslim extremeists are all over the place. New York is swamped with them. I thought about them early plus the native Indians because radicals from both these groups hate white people and they also hate alcohol, so I thought killing white kids who drink would be easier for them because these kids represent everything they hate and their drunk and more vulnerable. I eliminated the Muslims because why just men and why just college aged?

[SheerLuck]

SS it does look very similiar. I wonder what it means?
Just do a keyword search for gang hand signals shocker. It's a symbol used by lots of gangs....but not for violence

[SheerLuck]

goodnight all..... sleep well.
~the nurse

Hang in there nurse; its a frustrating case when 12/13th of the most important evidence is hidden from the public. Gannon knows the killings subside in the summer but he also knows he has to get this moving before September. The killers are playing games and maybe he's playing games and if he is then the type of gang might not be a street gang and we stil have a mystery. He's released just 1/13th of the grafitti. The other 12/13ths will solve the crime of who dun it and he knows he might have to release more grafitti if this stalls into July and August because he doesn't want more drownings happening in September when school starts up.

[MeoW333]

A lot of Chinese food take out places, dollar stores, and fast food no names use plastic bags with yellow smiley faces on them. They have words on them, although i forget what it says.