Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #4

[SuziQ]

New Thread

Previous threads:

Thread #1
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64034

Thread #2

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64230

Thread #3

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64382

[Morag]

AC360 tonight at 10EDT.

[SheerLuck]

Sheerluck, thanks for the links.

******
What I don't get about the Jailhouse informant is, if his/her info is so good that it changed the COD on Chris' autopsy report, then why doesn't it lead to someone?

Excellent question. The only thing i can think is that the FBI's ego is bruised because the detectives appear to be much smarter than the FBI. The FBI missed the connections 5 years ago and now they're embarrassed. Also the detectives idea of setting up a nationwide investigation service probably bothers the FBI because that's supposed to be the FBI's job. Sometimes men are more prone to ego related issues than women.......

[lizzybeth]

Thanks Morag. I haven't posted but I've been keeping up on all the threads.

[SuziQ]

PIEHL: More congressional interest in 'Smiley-Face' case (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S451897.shtml?cat=10830)

Second congressman asks FBI to investigate 'Smiley-Face' killers case (http://kstp.com/article/stories/S451821.shtml?cat=10830)

[SuziQ]

Originally posted by SS in thread #3

"The type of person that would be the opposite, not smart, someone not good in school, maybe doesn't have a job, not popular," said Duarte.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/...ler/index.html

[SuziQ]

Here is the link to the CNN video:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/...ew#cnnSTCVideo (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/smiley.face.killer/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo)

[SuziQ]

To continue the discussion about the smarts the killer(s) have. Not sure how smart the killers are, I think it might be more that LE was clueless enabling the killers to get away with this for so long.

[SuziQ]

I still think the jailhouse informant is either John Lilly or Jaramy Alford or maybe even Jaramy's brother. I'm leaning towards Lilly because he was a member of the drowning fetish website. He's a perfect example of how he's not a smart guy and LE ignored him for years.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64096

[DeltaDawn]

I still think the jailhouse informant is either John Lilly or Jaramy Alford or maybe even Jaramy's brother. I'm leaning towards Lilly because he was a member of the drowning fetish website. He's a perfect example of how he's not a smart guy and LE ignored him for years.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64096

Personally I don't think it is either. The idea of pods and groups with an heirarchy speaks to me of a systematic group..where those at the top control the direction of the group and the followers carry out those orders. On thread three when I put the CNN link in I referred to this theory. It is important to remember there is an heirarchy. I don't see either Lilly or the Alford's being followers, nor do I think they possess the intelligence to devise this plan of an undetectable criminal death. They could carry it out..but I don't think they are people this particular group would trust to carry it out.

[SuziQ]

Personally I don't think it is either. The idea of pods and groups with an heirarchy speaks to me of a systematic group..where those at the top control the direction of the group and the followers carry out those orders. On thread three when I put the CNN link in I referred to this theory. It is important to remember there is an heirarchy. I don't see either Lilly or the Alford's being followers, nor do I think they possess the intelligence to devise this plan of an undetectable criminal death. They could carry it out..but I don't think they are people this particular group would trust to carry it out.


The informant may not have been an actual member or an active participant. And I do see a possibility of an organization through a drowning fetish club that Lilly was involved in.

ETA: Pdf page 50 is why I feel Lilly is the informant.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/mpdcasefile.pdf

[Blink34]

[quote=SeriouslySearching;2239047]I thought they were intelligent people doing this and not some street punk types. Which, I might add confuses me as to how a "not smart, not good in school" person or people could pull off as perfect of murder repeatedly as I have ever heard of!! Makes no sense to me.
/quote]

Most serial killers are men who use brute force without a lot of thought. That's why I thought these were simple street abductions on quiet dark streets. I didn't think the killers would be showing up and entering the bar first though; that would surprise me unless there are 2 teams of killers--1 team to socialize in the bar and slip a cap of GHB in a victims drink and another team in a van that waits outside

SL- I completely disagree with your statement of "brute force without a lot of thought" the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160- all they are is thought, root cause varies, but you could never accuse any true SK that I am aware of as being thoughtless. I thought you were reading the posts, please read my theory upthread on each role of alleged perp team-

[Blink34]

Does this point to the killer carrying something with a set dose of GHB that's not enough to knock out a large person? Or so strong that a small person would go toes up on the spot, rather than leaving the bar?

I'm thinking syringe or pipette.

I think it does, but they have encountered differences in tolerances, imo. I think Seriously Searching theorized an eye drop bottle. It's that easy

[DeltaDawn]

If it was Lilly I would think they would have gotten to him by now..or think that his thoughts are so outlandish no one would believe him.

[Blink34]

I think if we go back to the issue of the detectives saying that there was an hierarchy then what he says does not destroy any theory of thinking that the ones at the top of the food chain, order these killings, probably are, very intelligent and very organized. They are not the ones doing the physical kidnapping and may not be the ones placing the Vic's in the water. Think of the Mafia, the people at the top come up with the plans and strategies. They hire punks and thugs to take care of the work they don't want to dirty their hands with. Yet they call the shots.

I think we are looking at a similar structure here, just not the Mafia. The top of this particular group is intelligent and organized..thrilled they have found a way to do this for so long without being caught. The people that are part of their group are the followers , who will do what they are told, exactly as they are told or risk their own demise. There are probably both personal and private gains for them. These people who are acting for the top would be the ones who would not have done well in school, nor been popular. They are more then willing to help with the demise of these targets that the intelligent top has picked.

I think the detectives are putting the message out there to let these people know they are getting closer and they know how the group functions. And also beware to the worker bees in the group..they are saying they have their number. Maybe they are hoping some of them will give up info to save their own selves.

DD- I totally agree with you. Based on your analogy, think the differences between Sonny and Fredo- The Leader, based on either birthrite or promotion, different levels shielding the "leader" and the soldiers which are expendable, and that sometimes it is an example, and sometimes it is for the bigger picture. To think a group could get away with this kind of chaos without serious planning and acumen, imo, is not possible.

[Blink34]

The informant may not have been an actual member or an active participant. And I do see a possibility of an organization through a drowning fetish club that Lilly was involved in.

ETA: Pdf page 50 is why I feel Lilly is the informant.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/mpdcasefile.pdf

Because he was listed as living in PA- Do you mean they took his address at face value? Glad to see you Suzie Q!

[Blink34]

If it was Lilly I would think they would have gotten to him by now..or think that his thoughts are so outlandish no one would believe him.

Im betting on Jaramy Alford- his murder conviction and the MOD exacted on his vic by he and his brother was remarkably vicious and brutal- But I still maintain the info came from a cellmate at least on paper, via Jaramy.
I know he plead guilty and testified that his minor brother was not involved; makes me think he tried to swing a deal and that's where it came from-

[SuziQ]

Im betting on Jaramy Alford- his murder conviction and the MOD exacted on his vic by he and his brother was remarkably vicious and brutal- But I still maintain the info came from a cellmate at least on paper, via Jaramy.
I know he plead guilty and testified that his minor brother was not involved; makes me think he tried to swing a deal and that's where it came from-

Glad to see you too! The weather went back to winterlike so I'm inside again. Anyways, good point about Jaramy wanting to cut a deal. And unfortunately MPLS did take the PA address for Lilly at face value and closed the tip.

[SuziQ]

If it was Lilly I would think they would have gotten to him by now..or think that his thoughts are so outlandish no one would believe him.

A little of both I think. LE in Missouri was so scared of the guy because he was so kooky, they filed a restraining order keeping him out of their station. I can't remember which one, Lilly or Alford, but LE was looking at pressing charges in relation to Chris Jenkins case and then they said they didn't have enough evidence.

[KR2tonenow]

I'll just put this out there...Could this be the makings for some sort of "College initiation??". I am curious why similiar drownings are happening in different states on the same day. It has to be more than coincedence.

[SuziQ]

Randi Kaye's 360 blog:

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/21/behind-the-scenes-investigating-the-smiley-face-killer/

As a reporter, I’ve moved around a lot. Little Rock, Arkansas. Dallas, Texas. New York, New York. Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Some stories stick with you along the way, some actually haunt you, like the story I am reporting on tonight on Anderson Cooper 360°.
While I lived and worked in the Midwest for seven years, I reported on at least half a dozen college-age men who had simply vanished. (more at link)

[SuziQ]

I'll just put this out there...Could this be the makings for some sort of "College initiation??". I am curious why similiar drownings are happening in different states on the same day. It has to be more than coincedence.

A possible group initiation of somesort.

[BethInAK]

Group initiation sounds like a good guess.

I don't think the operation is that sophisticated that they pick victims ahead of time. I think they wait outside of drinking establishments, pick someone that looks clean cut and follow them in a vehicle. Simple as that.

[SheerLuck]

[quote=Blink34;2239647][quote=SheerLuck;2239364]

SL- I completely disagree with your statement of "brute force without a lot of thought" the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160- all they are is thought, root cause varies, but you could never accuse any true SK that I am aware of as being thoughtless. I thought you were reading the posts, please read my theory quote]

Now Blink; first of all; you tell me to post facts but when I say young white males who are leaving bars and parties appear to be the target; you disagree. Now when I say that I thought these crimes are being done mostly by brute force through basic street thug abductions on quiet side streets; you attack another post of mine. Seeing as nothing is definite except that the victims are mostly young, white males who have been drinking; maybe you shouldn't be so quick to disagree or attack my ideas. My basic idea remains the same: young white males who leave a bar or party and are separated by their friends are being abducted and drowned by evil, twisted killers who I do not think are very bright

[SeriouslySearching]

My basic idea remains the same: young white males who leave a bar or party and are separated by their friends are being abducted and drowned by evil, twisted killers who I do not think are very brightThey weren't all white and that is not an original idea as it is what we have been saying all along...except for the intelligence factor.

The comment from the detective threw me for a minute, but I think he is wrong or he was being misleading on purpose. I don't imagine the group likes hearing that they are stupid! Maybe it is his way of "calling them out".

Someone has been smart enough to plan and pull off perfect murders without getting caught for ten plus years. This certainly doesn't speak to "brute force without thought" at all.

[SeriouslySearching]

I think they are stalking their victims before and not just waiting on the next Joe Blow that leaves alone. This seems more calculated than opportunistic to me.

[RR0004]

I agree with you SS. I just watched the segment on CNN and it didn't appear to me that the detective truly believed what he was saying. I also think it's an attempt to flush the killers out...get them to react and, perhaps, do something that may slip them up. What concerns me is that it could incite them as well. This is generally the "quiet" time of the year for these killings, isn't it?

[SeriouslySearching]

I agree with you SS. I just watched the segment on CNN and it didn't appear to me that the detective truly believed what he was saying. I also think it's an attempt to flush the killers out...get them to react and, perhaps, do something that may slip them up. What concerns me is that it could incite them as well. This is generally the "quiet" time of the year for these killings, isn't it?Yes and may be the reason he feels safer saying it.

[Blink34]

[quote=Blink34;2239647][quote=SheerLuck;2239364]

SL- I completely disagree with your statement of "brute force without a lot of thought" the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160- all they are is thought, root cause varies, but you could never accuse any true SK that I am aware of as being thoughtless. I thought you were reading the posts, please read my theory quote]

Now Blink; first of all; you tell me to post facts but when I say young white males who are leaving bars and parties appear to be the target; you disagree. Now when I say that I thought these crimes are being done mostly by brute force through basic street thug abductions on quiet side streets; you attack another post of mine. Seeing as nothing is definite except that the victims are mostly young, white males who have been drinking; maybe you shouldn't be so quick to disagree or attack my ideas. My basic idea remains the same: young white males who leave a bar or party and are separated by their friends are being abducted and drowned by evil, twisted killers who I do not think are very bright

SL- here is where you consistently run into trouble- Read EXACTLY what I disagreed with, and EXACTLY what you posted. Then compare what you have said above- they do not match.

I disagree with your asessment that serial killers always use brutal force and without thought. This is not my lone opinion. Crack a case at Quantico and read for yourself. I'm simply disagreeing with a single statement you made, which the antethisis of which, is factual, er go- my
dissention. That's all. I am not quick to dismiss your or anybody's ideas, I considered your opinion, know that facts exist to compell a different one- viola!

[Blink34]

Glad to see you too! The weather went back to winterlike so I'm inside again. Anyways, good point about Jaramy wanting to cut a deal. And unfortunately MPLS did take the PA address for Lilly at face value and closed the tip.

Do we know what that address is- a PO? I want to say even in the redacted report it was in Fort Washington, PA?

[Blink34]

Yes and may be the reason he feels safer saying it.

While I am not saying that I agree particullarly with the detectives mentality about now being a safe time- I do not. I think that we are a week- 10 days from a lull, I agree with you that he said it for that reason. Offtopic- congrats on David Cook:blowkiss:

[SheerLuck]

[quote=Blink34;2239647][quote=SheerLuck;2239364]

SL- I completely disagree with your statement of "brute force without a lot of thought" the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160 quote]

Blink: You might be right, by what I did is I formed a profile of the killers and a visualization of how I think these crimes went down; based mainly on the Jenkins case and what the informant confessed; who watched Chris Jenkins get murdered. To me it sounds like Jenkins was drunk and alone and got abducted in a van; tortured and killed. So I thought brute force. Now Dawn brings up an interesting idea; in that there might be a hierarchy with some brains at the top. Basically my profile is that the killers are evil and stupid

John Wayne Gacy: High school dropout, shoe sales man, KFC restaurant manager and a clown. Abducted and killed over 30 men before being caught. Not much brain work in being a clown and handicuffing unsuspecting 17 year olds and burying them in your basement

David Berkowitz: no college; instead joined the army and worked at the post office; considered to have above average intelligience. Not much brains in driving to an isolated area and seeing a car with a couple making out and shooting them in the head

Jeffrey Dahmer: attended Ohio State for a year and dropped out; joined the army and was discharged quickly. Those who knew him thought he was a stupid and obnoxious drunk. He went to bars and lured gay men to his house where he killed them.

[SheerLuck]

I'm leaning towards Lilly because he was a member of the drowning fetish website. He's a perfect example of how he's not a smart guy and LE ignored him for years.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64096

Drowning fetish website??? What the **** is that??? Was that on CNN?

[Blink34]

Drowning fetish website??? What the **** is that??? Was that on CNN?



Thread #1 I believe, SL.. this is what I mean about reading all posts:crazy:

[SuziQ]

Blink, I've never seen the entire address anywhere, but that doesn't mean it's not out there. Shadow might even have it.

SL, Profiler Pat Brown, at the request of Mo. LE made contact with Lilly through a drowning fetish site. I would have to go look, but there is an article in Crime Library.

[SheerLuck]

The informant may not have been an actual member or an active participant. And I do see a possibility of an organization through a drowning fetish club that Lilly was involved in.

ETA: Pdf page 50 is why I feel Lilly is the informant.

http://kstp.com/kstpImages/mpdcasefile.pdf

The informant has to be an informant/suspect. Another words he or she is ratting on the others and saying that he or she was in the van, but only witnessed the crime, but did not take part in it

[Blink34]

[quote=Blink34;2239647][quote=SheerLuck;2239364]

SL- I completely disagree with your statement of "brute force without a lot of thought" the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160 quote]

Blink: You might be right, by what I did is I formed a profile of the killers and a visualization of how I think these crimes went down; based mainly on the Jenkins case and what the informant confessed; who watched Chris Jenkins get murdered. To me it sounds like Jenkins was drunk and alone and got abducted in a van; tortured and killed. So I thought brute force. Now Dawn brings up an interesting idea; in that there might be a hierarchy with some brains at the top. Basically my profile is that the killers are evil and stupid

John Wayne Gacy: High school dropout, shoe sales man, KFC restaurant manager and a clown. Abducted and killed over 30 men before being caught. Not much brain work in being a clown and handicuffing unsuspecting 17 year olds and burying them in your basement

David Berkowitz: no college; instead joined the army and worked at the post office; considered to have above average intelligience. Not much brains in driving to an isolated area and seeing a car with a couple making out and shooting them in the head

Jeffrey Dahmer: attended Ohio State for a year and dropped out; joined the army and was discharged quickly. Those who knew him thought he was a stupid and obnoxious drunk. He went to bars and lured gay men to his house where he killed them.

Your killing me SL- read your post, it is YOUR OPINION, not fact- High IQ, but other mental defficiancies are coomon.
http://dead-silence.org/?p=260

Mundane tasks associated with murder do not a serial killer make-

[SuziQ]

SL, here is the crime library article regarding Lilly. The discussion starts at Chapter 7.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/la_crosse_wisconsin/7.html

[RR0004]

Blink, I figured the "lull" would be soon. IMHO, and I'm sure all will concur, it's a welcome "respite" from this horror. I suppose it was too soon for the detectives to comment on the Garza case, as that was the last Smiley Face to be uncovered, if I'm not mistaken. Being that Duarte and Gannon work backwards to the point of entry (of the body) into the water, without knowing where Nick is it's not likely a case they can tie in just yet.
SL- I see your point about SKs. I do believe this is the working of a much more organized group (?), though. Needless to say, taking the life of anyone involves "force" of some kind...and sickness of the mind...no matter how smart the killers may be.

[SheerLuck]

[quote=Blink34;2240070][quote=SheerLuck;2239996][quote=Blink34;2239647]

SL- here is where you consistently run into trouble- Read EXACTLY what I disagreed with, and EXACTLY what you posted. Then compare what you have said above- they do not match.

I disagree with your asessment that serial killers always use brutal force and without thought. This is not my lone opinion. Crack a case at Quantico and read for yourself. I'm simply disagreeing with a single statement you made, which the antethisis of which, is factual, er go- my
dissention. That's all. I am not quick to dismiss your or anybody's ideas, I considered your opinion, know that facts exist to compell a different one- viola! [/quote

It's good people are posting their ideas now, which makes websleuths a lot better. Blink; I noticed that me and you agree on some parts of this, but we seem to clash when we don't agree. It could be you didn't like some of my early posts that maybe were a bit abrasive(I say this faceciously). I'm trying to post better now. Blink; I never said serial killers "always" use brute force; but what I said is that "male" serial killers "usually" use brute force. There's a difference. I think with women and crime, there sometimes is a bit more thought involved. Also women usually either commit robbery or hurt family members, but women don't usually kill for senseless, dimented reasons. Senseless crimes are usually men.

[SuziQ]

Transcript of tonights Anderson Cooper. They start discussing the case more than halfway down the page:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0805/21/acd.01.html

[RR0004]

SL- I know we have discussed women as a "lure" in these cases. They could very well be a part of the hierarchy mentioned.

[RR0004]

I would love to sit down and pick those detectives brains. It was a lengthy piece IMO. Kudos to Cooper for focusing on these mysterious drownings for what they may be...acts of violence.

[SuziQ]

The below snip is what I found interesting. A little more detail than we had before.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0805/21/acd.01.html

GANNON: We were -- we actually -- the smiley face is only 1/13th of the total piece of information that we've uncovered at the scene. What we've done is we found other symbols, and markings and taggings, always specific to these regions, and broken them down, whether we thought they were different pods, which is what some of the symbols would be specific to just Minnesota and Wisconsin and the 12 or 18 victims were there.

And then there were other ones that were specific to the region of Illinois and Indiana, and another set of symbols to Pennsylvania, Ohio and New York.

COOPER: So is it, in your mind, a -- it's, what, a group of serial killers? Or is it a gang? Or who do you think is doing this?

GANNON: Gang not in the traditional sense of a gang, but the same type of organizational structure of a gang. And we believe that they're communicating with each other.

COOPER: But you don't have any idea of how?

GANNON: No -- well, I mean, I just -- hypotheses of either cell phones, got cell phones, disposable cell phones or, obviously, through the Internet. We actually had one of the investigations where there was a message on a -- on the computer that we were very interested in.

And the law enforcement agency, without mentioning which case, was unable to track it back to the original IP number, which obviously would have been very crucial to us.

[RR0004]

SuziQ- that info about the message on the computer was new to me. How long ago did we think it was wise for LE to check the computers? Having classified these deaths as drownings, I believe we determined they may not have. It all makes me wonder...

[SuziQ]

SuziQ- that info about the message on the computer was new to me. How long ago did we think it was wise for LE to check the computers? Having classified these deaths as drownings, I believe we determined they may not have. It all makes me wonder...

You have to wonder how much was not looked at since these cases were so quickly written off as drunken accidents. I know in the presser it was stated that the detectives believe the vics might be targeted via the internet.

[RR0004]

It very well may be the link to how these victims are chosen. I found the idea of disposable cell phones to be very interesting. I have to say, I hadn't thought of that before. I have this BIG question rolling around in my brain. What ties these "members" to the time frame that had been established as a pattern?

[SheerLuck]

Thread #1 I believe, SL.. this is what I mean about reading all posts:crazy:

Okay; I see what you mean. I never read that post. I don't think drowning fetish is connected to any of these, but I guess they can't be ruled out. To me that sounds like more of a thing a sick man would do alone; not as an organized group. There really are some sick people out there who should be locked up; I think I had the right idea skipping over that post

[SeriouslySearching]

Okay; I see what you mean. I never read that post. I don't think drowning fetish is connected to any of these, but I guess they can't be ruled out. To me that sounds like more of a thing a sick man would do alone; not as an organized group. There really are some sick people out there who should be locked up; I think I had the right idea skipping over that postWe don't skip any posts here. Most of us not only read them once, but will go back over past threads to keep things fresher in our minds. This is why we get rather exasperated when people don't bother to read them the first time.

[SheerLuck]

[quote=Blink34;2240102][quote=SheerLuck;2240087][quote=Blink34;2239647]

Your killing me SL- read your post, it is YOUR OPINION, not fact- High IQ, but other mental defficiancies are coomon.
quote]

Killing you with what??? In disagreeing with me you wrote

"SL- I completely disagree with your statement of "brute force without a lot of thought" the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160"

And I said that its fine we disagree on our opinions and that you might be right and the killers might be smart. But I used 3 of the most famous seriial killers as an example to show that its simply not true that the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160. That's genius level and most are not genius level or 160. Maybe no one agrees with me; but I don't think its that hard for these killers to be "stupid and evil"; as I put it; and do these crimes 4 or 5 times a year for 11 years; without getting caught. The best example I can think of is John Gacy; who was a high school drop out and who used very little brains in his killings; yet he wasn't caught by LE until he had killed over 30 men in the course of 6 years; all in the same town. It doesn't take a 160 IQ to drive into a college town; walk into a bar and make friends with someone; and then dump GHB in their drink when they go to the bathroom. And then kill them later; or have a friend waiting outside; kill them.

[SeriouslySearching]

To kill them without leaving a trace of evidence and knowing that LE and the ME will automatically term it as an accidental drowning then close the case is not the same thing as what the men you pointed out did. They left TONS of evidence. Frankly, it was LE that was stupid in that respect as well as the killers. This is entirely different. Only LE has held the lesser of the intelligence in these cases, imo.

[SheerLuck]

SL, here is the crime library article regarding Lilly. The discussion starts at Chapter 7.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/la_crosse_wisconsin/7.html

Hi SuziQ; thanx; but I started reading your link and just get too turned off seeing Dahmer's face and then reading about drowning fetish. I won't read about sick mens fetishes, but my gut tells me gay men are not involved in the drownings

[SeriouslySearching]

When you are studying cases that involve people killing or torturing other people, everything you read or learn could come into play. It is advisable to know what is going on with criminals who could be involved in many cases so you can relate it to certain situations.

[SheerLuck]

We don't skip any posts here. Most of us not only read them once, but will go back over past threads to keep things fresher in our minds. This is why we get rather exasperated when people don't bother to read them the first time.

Everyone has their own method or style and mine is different. I try to read every post, but I don't reread posts and I guess I missed a few. No one's perfect. But don't get exasperated; just figure you have 1 person here who sometimes thinks and acts like a criminal, but maybe that's a good thing

[SheerLuck]

When you are studying cases that involve people killing or torturing other people, everything you read or learn could come into play. It is advisable to know what is going on with criminals who could be involved in many cases so you can relate it to certain situations.

SS, you're right and I agree with you totally, but I don't read about sex fetishes that I think are sick; so I'd let someone else reasearch it and I wouldn't solve it. But I see a different kind of hatred here, that has no relation to sex

[SeriouslySearching]

Everyone has their own method or style and mine is different. I try to read every post, but I don't reread posts and I guess I missed a few. No one's perfect. But don't get exasperated; just figure you have 1 person here who sometimes thinks and acts like a criminal, but maybe that's a good thingYou "act" like a criminal?! :confused: No one is perfect, but I can't recall the last time I heard that one on our board here. No, I don't find that a good thing at all.

We are not here playing games and we take this very seriously (Refer to my sn).

[ArizonaGiGi]

jeez you guys, let go of the egos!

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks, AzGigi~ However, I am not talking out of my ego (that I am aware of, at least). I would like it if people took the time to at least read the posts which build to the points of conversation later. When you ignore them altogether on purpose...it is frustrating.

[Blink34]

Blink, I figured the "lull" would be soon. IMHO, and I'm sure all will concur, it's a welcome "respite" from this horror. I suppose it was too soon for the detectives to comment on the Garza case, as that was the last Smiley Face to be uncovered, if I'm not mistaken. Being that Duarte and Gannon work backwards to the point of entry (of the body) into the water, without knowing where Nick is it's not likely a case they can tie in just yet.
SL- I see your point about SKs. I do believe this is the working of a much more organized group (?), though. Needless to say, taking the life of anyone involves "force" of some kind...and sickness of the mind...no matter how smart the killers may be.

Yes, RR, your correct, they have not gotten to Nick Garza's case yet. It was Josh's case last week and they left Ridley Twsp. from Tommy Booth's yesterday.

[Blink34]

jeez you guys, let go of the egos!

I'm not sure who that was directed at AG, but as Seriously said this is a serious matter for me and for those who want to contribute but don't take the time to review previous topic or evidence and attempt to comment anyway bottleknecks the discussion, that's all. I like productive contribution from any vantage point, just appreciate the courtesy of staying on topic. For me, if there is an area where I am not sure of the thread info/topic, I don't post until I do as a courtesy to those that are on point.

[SuziQ]

AzGigi, thanks. Unfortunately I forgot that Sheerluck "has it all figured out". And I commited a faux paus by giving Sheerluck link to info that Sheerluck obviously doesn't need because Sheerluck...."has it all figured out."

Sheerluck, when was the last time a murder was presented in a G-rated fashion, boxed all neat and wrapped up in a pretty bow? Sorry to burst your bubble, but murder is NOT G-rated. You seriously have added nothing new to this thread other than your own inflated ego and sense of self importance.

[vermontn03]

ON my AOL main Page!

Do 'Smiley Face Killers' Hunt Students?


By Randi Kaye,
CNN
Posted: 2008-05-22 12:53:01
Filed Under: Nation News (http://news.aol.com/nation)
ALBANY, New York (May 22) -- At the age of 21, Christopher Jenkins appeared to have everything going for him. The University of Minnesota senior was good-looking, had a near perfect grade-point average and had a future in business.

Then, suddenly, he vanished.




http://news.aol.com/story/_a/do-smiley-face-killers-hunt-students/20080522094509990001?icid=1615988631x1202944446x12 00306346

[SheerLuck]

You "act" like a criminal?! :confused: No one is perfect, but I can't recall the last time I heard that one on our board here. No, I don't find that a good thing at all.

We are not here playing games and we take this very seriously (Refer to my sn).

Sometimes to catch a criminal and catch on to how they are committing their crimes; you have to think like a criminal and put yourself in their shoes and try to figure out how you would do the crimes. Thats how I profile and for simplistic murder cases; its often the best approach. The informant was in the van and witnessed Chris Jenkins get murdered; so I formed my profile based on the idea that this was not a hard murder to pull off. The only brains would be what Dawn suggested; that maybe a cowardly hierarchy is running the show and calling the shots. Now it appears from CNN's show last night; that my killer profile; which I began posting several days ago; is almost identical to Gannons; so maybe just read my posts; without scrutinizing every noun and verb

[SheerLuck]

AzGigi, thanks. Unfortunately I forgot that Sheerluck "has it all figured out". And I commited a faux paus by giving Sheerluck link to info that Sheerluck obviously doesn't need because Sheerluck...."has it all figured out."

Sheerluck, when was the last time a murder was presented in a G-rated fashion, boxed all neat and wrapped up in a pretty bow? Sorry to burst your bubble, but murder is NOT G-rated. You seriously have added nothing new to this thread other than your own inflated ego and sense of self importance.

What you perceive as "inflated ego" is actually just someone who's experienced and working hard. Now I profiled the killers several days ago and my profile was identical to Gannons. That's ego? I've told people here exactly who the informant is. It is a person who was in the van who witnessed Chris Jenkins death. Posting that is ego? I've detailed exactly how GHB works because GHB is the perfect immobolizing drug. Here's another idea that can be helpful to people who might have children in college or to family members reading this. The criminals might not always use GHB and have a killer in the bar first. They simply abduct a victim on a quiet dark street and immbolize him with a stun gun; which is another excellent way to immoblize a victim. Just another idea that to the smart people here and familily members; might be helpful. If thats "ego"; then thats your problem

[RR0004]

SL- the stun gun theory may have been ruled out due to the lack of corroborating evidence of such on the bodies. As far as I know, there hasn't been a mark on the victims. I'm not sure if this could be removed with the bodies being submerged in the water for extended periods of time. If I'm not mistaken, stun guns do leave a mark of some sort..burn-like in nature. I've been of the mind that it was a drug that immobilized these victims.

[SuziQ]

Just another idea that to the smart people here and familily members; might be helpful. If thats "ego"; then thats your problem

Oh please, what you posted is nothing new or different than what was already discussed a dozen times over a dozen different ways for weeks by WS'ers here before you popped into this thread. You wouldn't know that though, because "you have it all figured out", you don't read all the posts. You think you've brought something new or interesting to this thread and you haven't. But your ego and self importance tells you otherwise.

[SeriouslySearching]

What you perceive as "inflated ego" is actually just someone who's experienced and working hard. Now I profiled the killers several days ago and my profile was identical to Gannons. That's ego? I've told people here exactly who the informant is. It is a person who was in the van who witnessed Chris Jenkins death. Posting that is ego? I've detailed exactly how GHB works because GHB is the perfect immobolizing drug. Here's another idea that can be helpful to people who might have children in college or to family members reading this. The criminals might not always use GHB and have a killer in the bar first. They simply abduct a victim on a quiet dark street and immbolize him with a stun gun; which is another excellent way to immoblize a victim. Just another idea that to the smart people here and familily members; might be helpful. If thats "ego"; then thats your problemActually, we did that over a month ago and if you ever looked through the other threads you would have seen it. We have a thread specifically on GHB and other drugs possibly used:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64040

There are no marks of a stun gun which would still be visible during autopsies. You haven't come up with anything so far that we haven't, but you are still touting it as if these are your ideas. This really isn't fair to the people who DO work hard here to bring these things to the forefront. There are smart people and family members here who want real answers and not a recap of things already said or done.

[SeriouslySearching]

Oh please, what you posted is nothing new or different than what was already discussed a dozen times over a dozen different ways for weeks by WS'ers here before you popped into this thread. You wouldn't know that though, because "you have it all figured out", you don't read all the posts. You think you've brought something new or interesting to this thread and you haven't. But your ego and self importance tells you otherwise.I agree. It seems the only posts read are the ones where hardworking WSers or the Detectives have brought up these theories before evidently!

Frankly, I think some people may only want the reward money as opposed to helping solve cases for the families and bringing justice to the victims. As far as I know, no one until now has said the heck with the families and the smart people here because I solved the case on my very own using everything they came up with prior to my arrival.

[SeriouslySearching]

OK Let's get back on track here and forget about nonsense.

About Lilly, I understand about his fetish group. I don't get the connection here. I think if we were seeing younger men perhaps, but this particular grouping doesn't scream fetish killings to me. Their clothing remains intact and nothing has pointed to them being sexually abused before their deaths. I would think that the fetish group would want their victims literally stripped to raise the level of their excitement and to make the victims more vulnerable.

As I have said before...I believe they were mentally abused by being told they were going to die then letting them agonize over it and pleading for their lives. This type of torture is seen in that video I brought up from Youtube from the Manhunt game. It shows a man fitting the same description as our victims bound to a chair in a bare room begging for his life.

[SuziQ]

I agree. It seems the only posts read are the ones where hardworking WSers or the Detectives have brought up these theories before evidently!

Frankly, I think some people may only want the reward money as opposed to helping solve cases for the families and bringing justice to the victims. As far as I know, no one until now has said the heck with the families and the smart people here because I solved the case on my very own using everything they came up with prior to my arrival.

Lol SS. Too true.

[SheerLuck]

SL- the stun gun theory may have been ruled out due to the lack of corroborating evidence of such on the bodies. As far as I know, there hasn't been a mark on the victims. I'm not sure if this could be removed with the bodies being submerged in the water for extended periods of time. If I'm not mistaken, stun guns do leave a mark of some sort..burn-like in nature. I've been of the mind that it was a drug that immobilized these victims.

Hello RR; GHB makes more sense than a taser, but a taser leaves almost no visible marks, which is why it's a possible angle if some of these crimes are simply side street abductions. Some of the kids disappeared after small dorm parties; like Nick Garza from Vermont; so I didn't think GHB would have been used on them; unless the detectives feel only the bar victims are connected. A sidenote to the taser is that part of the taser controversy is that human rights groups including the United Nations want them banned for a lot of reasons but 1 reason is that a taser allows a bad cop or a sadistic cop to torture, while hiding the abuse that a baton or a pair of fists would show. When Mrs Jenkins said her son was driven around and tortured I couldn't help but think maybe the torture was taser abuse because his body showed no trauma or signs of torture

[SuziQ]

SS, the Manhunt game is very disturbing to me. In the CNN report yesterday it was stated the act of fearing death was as important as the death itself. Something like that anyways, I don't remember the exact wording.

[SheerLuck]

You haven't come up with anything so far that we haven't

Someone else posted that the informant was in the van and witnessed Chris Jenkins die?

[SheerLuck]

OK Let's get back on track here and forget about nonsense.

About Lilly, I understand about his fetish group. I don't get the connection here.

That's because there isn't one

[SeriouslySearching]

Again, SL...you are wrong about the tasers or stun guns not leaving visible marks. We did the research already and covered that weeks ago. However, I am not going to keep going back to find the posts or threads. If you care to look...I am sure you will come across them so you can learn what we did come up with concerning them.

[SeriouslySearching]

SS, the Manhunt game is very disturbing to me. In the CNN report yesterday it was stated the act of fearing death was as important as the death itself. Something like that anyways, I don't remember the exact wording.This would certainly fit. The game has a subculture or at least added to a subculture already headed down that path. The video was very troubling to me as parts of it looked incredibly real.

[SheerLuck]

There are smart people and family members here who want real answers and not a recap of things already said or done.

If you want to help family members; here's an idea that maybe Gannon and his friend don't have the time for yet that miaybe you could help with. Gannon said yesterday that at least some of these kids are abducted inside of the bars they're at. Was he asking for help? I think so and I think your best shot in helping family members; was your idea to search the web for pictures from the bar and the night that Tommy Booth was abducted. His relative mentioned that she studied the pictures in detail, but the key would be to connect those pictures with other pictures from other bars where other kids were also abducted and to see if any person was in both pictures. If the same person from Bootleggers in Pennylvania is seen in any other picture in another state; then send those pictures to the detectives. Thank you

[SeriouslySearching]

Suzi~ Let's check more into other videos involving the game and see if we can get a better sense of who the people are not only in the video, but making them. I would like to know where the people are from and maybe we can track down other videos they have made, too.

I still think it is quite possible that either photos or videos were made before or after of the murders maybe not during, but say going back to the scene during the daylight hours to "spot" the body before LE did.

[SuziQ]

Someone else posted that the informant was in the van and witnessed Chris Jenkins die?

Yes, several have posted that theory already.

[SuziQ]

Suzi~ Let's check more into other videos involving the game and see if we can get a better sense of who the people are not only in the video, but making them. I would like to know where the people are from and maybe we can track down other videos they have made, too.

I still think it is quite possible that either photos or videos were made before or after of the murders maybe not during, but say going back to the scene during the daylight hours to "spot" the body before LE did.

I'll have to go back and find the myspace like page on Youtube that claims to be the makers of the manhunt films and they said they planned on making more. They were from Detroit or Chicago.

[SeriouslySearching]

I will search for more on Youtube now, too. Thanks, Suzi! I just think it is their "mentality" factor which bothers me.

[SuziQ]

Found my post from thread #1.

04-28-2008, 09:30 PM
SuziQ (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=16842) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,179


http://www.youtube.com/user/starkweather00

Above is a Myspace type Youtube page with more videos:

Name: s
Age: 31

manhunt projects underway! stay tuned for many more manhunt fan fiction shorts.
Hometown: detroit
Country: United States http://www.youtube.com/img/flags/en_US-orig.gif
Interests and Hobbies: horror movies, drinking beer, smoking.

[DeltaDawn]

SS, the Manhunt game is very disturbing to me. In the CNN report yesterday it was stated the act of fearing death was as important as the death itself. Something like that anyways, I don't remember the exact wording.

I know you were addressing this to SS, but I wanted to chime in here too. Sorry ... A while back I posted about a book called the Manhattan Hunt Club. It was about very rich and powerful people in NY, who thought it sport to take people then let them go in NYC and pursue them as a hunt. I have also read other fiction that is similar. Could this be a club, group, cult that has gone too far in that respect. In the Manhattan Hunt Club these people that they hunted were usually criminals, on their way to jail, for lesser crimes, then released in the homeless community and then hunted by this elite group.

Suppose the tables were turned and instead the idea was capturing and releasing fine physical, mental and moral individuals to the same end? It has seemed at times the hunt has been involved because a couple of the men were able to call on their cellphones saying they were being chased, but didn't know by who or why.

[Blink34]

SS, the Manhunt game is very disturbing to me. In the CNN report yesterday it was stated the act of fearing death was as important as the death itself. Something like that anyways, I don't remember the exact wording.

Yes SQ, if not the quote, close enough. I noticed that too and I very much remember we covered that in much earlier thread- I saw it as confirmation. It isn't the torture physically, it is what is floabw, gleaned from the fear from the victim as it relates to the motive we need to hone in on.

[SeriouslySearching]

I will check more into that, too, DD! Thanks for bringing it back up. It shows the same mentality of the hunting and killing of certain groups of people.

[SuziQ]

Suppose the tables were turned and instead the idea was capturing and releasing fine physical, mental and moral individuals to the same end? It has seemed at times the hunt has been involved because a couple of the men were able to call on their cellphones saying they were being chased, but didn't know by who or why.

IMO, Very possible. The cases where they describe being chased, or appeared to have been chased is particularly disturbing.

[SuziQ]

DD, I hope you don't mind me reposting your post from thread #1. Is it me or is the WS search function working much better these days?
******
04-29-2008, 02:12 PM
DeltaDawn (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/member.php?u=18815) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,829


Did anyone ever read the book The Manhattan Hunt Club by John Saul?

It isn't exactly like this but it was about very powerful people who had a little club where they would let someone go free, but then the object was to hunt them down and kill them. Very similiar in some ways.

[SheerLuck]

[quote=SeriouslySearching;2242934]Again, SL...you are wrong about the tasers or stun guns not leaving visible marks. We did the research already quote]

You sure I'm wrong? As far as I know tasers often leave no marks and sometimes they leave just tiny pin pricks. If you have a friend who's a cop ask him or her. Sometimes its beter than a google search; or research google for words like maybe taser leave no marks. As I know it, for the sadistic cop; they've replaced the baton because you can torture and leave almost no sign of torture. And for autopsies of bodies pulled out of ice water; "no trauma" means no broken bones or major bruises, but do you think a couple of tiny pin pricks from a taser would be noticed? As I said; I think GHB was the drug of choice in these drownings, but I also think a taser is possible if some of these kids were abducted off the street. Its been nice talking with you and your lady friends; I'm leaving town for the weekend; so have a nice weekend

[SuziQ]

Yes SQ, if not the quote, close enough. I noticed that too and I very much remember we covered that in much earlier thread- I saw it as confirmation. It isn't the torture physically, it is what is floabw, gleaned from the fear from the victim as it relates to the motive we need to hone in on.

Way back when the poss of snuff or torture films was discussed. And I keep going back to the comment from MLPS PD regarding wanting a photo or video of Chris Jenkins murder. Were they being sarcastic in their requestt? Or were they asking for something that might be out there based on info they have?

[Blink34]

I know you were addressing this to SS, but I wanted to chime in here too. Sorry ... A while back I posted about a book called the Manhattan Hunt Club. It was about very rich and powerful people in NY, who thought it sport to take people then let them go in NYC and pursue them as a hunt. I have also read other fiction that is similar. Could this be a club, group, cult that has gone too far in that respect. In the Manhattan Hunt Club these people that they hunted were usually criminals, on their way to jail, for lesser crimes, then released in the homeless community and then hunted by this elite group.

Suppose the tables were turned and instead the idea was capturing and releasing fine physical, mental and moral individuals to the same end? It has seemed at times the hunt has been involved because a couple of the men were able to call on their cellphones saying they were being chased, but didn't know by who or why.

Personally, if we buy the drugging, that scenario seems unlikely. However, I think it entirely possible that a group could be either "schooled" by such a novel and even glorify it. I just think there is too much room for error- witnesses, running into cops, payphone- jumping into someones car to escape being chased?

[Blink34]

Way back when the poss of snuff or torture films was discussed. And I keep going back to the comment from MLPS PD regarding wanting a photo or video of Chris Jenkins murder. Were they being sarcastic in their requestt? Or were they asking for something that might be out there based on info they have?

I think it is for 2 reasons:

1) Even if Alford CONFESSED to being either a party to or witness during the act of a murder, legally LE MUST have a corroberating piece of evidence before they could charge him. (I'll wait now for 14 posts to go by and then Captain Obvious, aka: SL will post same :)
A confession in this instance is not enough, as crazy as that sounds. If it were we would have people pleading to all kinds of things for all kinds or reasons and the real perps would be at SL's house all one step ahead of us.:bang:

2) I agree with you, he has said it was taped. I'll go out on a limb so far as to say that someone with that particular knowledge has been on this thread briefly.

[DeltaDawn]

SL I for one am not sure if anybody is wrong at this point. I think all options are still on the table, because I think the level of evil and mental maladjustment in this case is huge. I think that covers all the spans of our great society, from the intelligent, wealthy upper crust, to the street thugs who work for them. Only it isn't considered work..more of a mission or belief system.

There are many people at many levels involved here, IMHO. They feed off of each other and their is an hierarchy if you will. So the more intelligent, wealthy and controlling are at the top, followed by many followers of similar belief, each hoping to up their own position in this group.

They have a code of silence among themselves. They work at many levels. They are going to be very hard to detect enmass..but unless that is done..there will always be more to follow. This is why, even though the detectives have resources to a few, they have not acted..because a few would expose, but not stop this from happening again. This will become a very big exposure if the track they are on pans out. Otherwise I believe they would have already done so.

[Blink34]

[quote=SeriouslySearching;2242934]Again, SL...you are wrong about the tasers or stun guns not leaving visible marks. We did the research already quote]

You sure I'm wrong? As far as I know tasers often leave no marks and sometimes they leave just tiny pin pricks. If you have a friend who's a cop ask him or her. Sometimes its beter than a google search; or research google for words like maybe taser leave no marks. As I know it, for the sadistic cop; they've replaced the baton because you can torture and leave almost no sign of torture. And for autopsies of bodies pulled out of ice water; "no trauma" means no broken bones or major bruises, but do you think a couple of tiny pin pricks from a taser would be noticed? As I said; I think GHB was the drug of choice in these drownings, but I also think a taser is possible if some of these kids were abducted off the street. Its been nice talking with you and your lady friends; I'm leaving town for the weekend; so have a nice weekend

Enjoy the lost friends of Baretta convention!

PS- First of all, I guess no-one has ever explained to you that in order to be condescending, you cannot be a half wit.

Secondly, if you can actually find a "cop friend" that you haven't made up in your head or alienated because of your meritless rants, you could ask them specifically what KIND of taser (which is the namebrand, there are others, btw..) that can be used and may not leave marks.

It is NOT the hand-held garden variety, which has been PROVEN to leave small burn-like marks (ala Lou Smitt). It is the "firable" variety that is used when you are at a distance from a person and a coil with a charge is released and can be conducted anywhere on the body, including clothing, thus the NON- Marks.

[Blink34]

SL I for one am not sure if anybody is wrong at this point. I think all options are still on the table, because I think the level of evil and mental maladjustment in this case is huge. I think that covers all the spans of our great society, from the intelligent, wealthy upper crust, to the street thugs who work for them. Only it isn't considered work..more of a mission or belief system.

There are many people at many levels involved here, IMHO. They feed off of each other and their is an hierarchy if you will. So the more intelligent, wealthy and controlling are at the top, followed by many followers of similar belief, each hoping to up their own position in this group.

They have a code of silence among themselves. They work at many levels. They are going to be very hard to detect enmass..but unless that is done..there will always be more to follow. This is why, even though the detectives have resources to a few, they have not acted..because a few would expose, but not stop this from happening again. This will become a very big exposure if the track they are on pans out. Otherwise I believe they would have already done so.

I agree strongly DD, and would only add that I do not think this is just one "group"- I think it is several, all stemmed from the same "sorta" seed, but like everything else in life, somtimes people just want to be the boss and get tired of listening to others, or they get a better deal-

[SuziQ]

Thanks Blink...very interesting.

[Blink34]

Group chat needs attention already:blowkiss:

[DeltaDawn]

What is group chat?

[SheerLuck]

A while back I posted about a book called the Manhattan Hunt Club. It was about very rich and powerful people in NY, who thought it sport to take people then let them go in NYC and pursue them as a hunt. I have also read other fiction that is similar. Could this be a club, group, cult that has gone too far in that respect. In the Manhattan Hunt Club these people that they hunted were usually criminals, on their way to jail, for lesser crimes, then released in the homeless community and then hunted by this elite group.

Suppose the tables were turned and instead the idea was capturing and releasing fine physical, mental and moral individuals to the same end? It has seemed at times the hunt has been involved because a couple of the men were able to call on their cellphones saying they were being chased, but didn't know by who or why.

Hi Dawn; you send in good posts-I like your ideas about a possible hierarchy in these crimes and the possibility of 2 sets of killers; plus your reminder that life in general has a hierarchy. I think probably the kid broke away from the killers; who mistakenly lost control of him and that he was running for his life. It's a long shot if video games are being simulated to kill these kids, but as you said; anything is possible here, so nothing should be excluded. I still see stupid evil satanist losers who are full of hate who simply dump GHB in a kids drink and kill him when he leaves the bar. One last thing; from Gannon's expression last night; I'm sure Gannon was quietly asking the public last night for any help in relation to the bars the kids were hanging at on the night they were abducted. He needs help from those nights. Maybe a band that toured near some of these bars where abductions happened; where a roadie might slither over from. But that's why Gannon showed his cards and said, "abducted from within the bars". Nice trading ideas with everyone. It's been fun. The economy sucks so I'll go for the reward money. Take care.

[SuziQ]

Szostak's father responds to autopsy report

By DAVID FILKINS (http://timesunion.com/TUNews/author/AuthorPage.aspx?AuthorNum=187) and CATHY WOODRUFF (http://timesunion.com/TUNews/author/AuthorPage.aspx?AuthorNum=132), Staff writers

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=690630&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=5/22/2008

[SuziQ]

At the bottom of the page at the below link is a motherlode of articles related to Josh Szostak's case:

http://capitalnews9.com/content/head...n/Default.aspx (http://capitalnews9.com/content/headlines/116620/szostak-death-featured-on-cnn/Default.aspx)

[DeltaDawn]

Thanks Suzi .. I will read these with rapt attention.

[RR0004]

Just an aside here...but have I missed something?

[DeltaDawn]

Hi Dawn; you send in good posts-I like your ideas about a possible hierarchy in these crimes and the possibility of 2 sets of killers; plus your reminder that life in general has a hierarchy. I think probably the kid broke away from the killers; who mistakenly lost control of him and that he was running for his life. It's a long shot if video games are being simulated to kill these kids, but as you said; anything is possible here, so nothing should be excluded. I still see stupid evil satanist losers who are full of hate who simply dump GHB in a kids drink and kill him when he leaves the bar. One last thing; from Gannon's expression last night; I'm sure Gannon was quietly asking the public last night for any help in relation to the bars the kids were hanging at on the night they were abducted. He needs help from those nights. Maybe a band that toured near some of these bars where abductions happened; where a roadie might slither over from. But that's why Gannon showed his cards and said, "abducted from within the bars". Nice trading ideas with everyone. It's been fun. The economy sucks so I'll go for the reward money. Take care.


Well.. the cards have not all been laid on the table yet, the end is still not known. I do believe very soon, over the summer into early Fall, this case will come to a conclusion.
Best of luck in attaining any reward money out there. I think that the detectives will solve this before anyone else will.

I am hoping an accomplice comes forward with info they have and want to leave this life choice behind. If they are reading here..your life is a choice..you made a choice or someone else in control made a choice for you, to be a part of these groups, you can also make a choice to leave this group..people are there within the mental health community to help you, so are Detectives Gannon and Duarte. Do the right thing. Make a phone call, make a meeting..save yourself.

[SuziQ]

Just an aside here...but have I missed something?

I'm not sure...can you be more specific?

[Blink34]

Well.. the cards have not all been laid on the table yet, the end is still not known. I do believe very soon, over the summer into early Fall, this case will come to a conclusion.
Best of luck in attaining any reward money out there. I think that the detectives will solve this before anyone else will.

I am hoping an accomplice comes forward with info they have and want to leave this life choice behind. If they are reading here..your life is a choice..you made a choice or someone else in control made a choice for you, to be a part of these groups, you can also make a choice to leave this group..people are there within the mental health community to help you, so are Detectives Gannon and Duarte. Do the right thing. Make a phone call, make a meeting..save yourself.


Great advice

[SeriouslySearching]

What bites is that our ideas could be used to forward agendas towards that end.

[RR0004]

SuziQ- sorry that I bailed so quickly without responding...had lost track of time...there just seemed to be so much tension on the board...I couldn't figure out why.

I don't think SL was really out for any reward...just being sarcastic I suppose. No room for that here.

[Blink34]

What bites is that our ideas could be used to forward agendas towards that end.

For me, it is worth it if it stops this- or catches a perp- I also believe it is easy enough to track- they don't just cough over reward cash without reviewing the claimant- Also, KARMA..

[MCDRAW]

I have pretty much stayed away because of the tension too. There are people that love to argue, they don't care what they argue about, they just love to argue. SL appears to be that type of person. I hope he was only being sarcastic about the reward.

[SeriouslySearching]

For me, it is worth it if it stops this- or catches a perp- I also believe it is easy enough to track- they don't just cough over reward cash without reviewing the claimant- Also, KARMA..Excellent points, Blink! :) Karma. My favorite fact of life. LOL

[fran]

FWIW they still haven't found Brandon Swanson in Minnesota yet. :(

Here's a snippet I added to his 'missing' thread. I guess he may have been out drinking prior to his disappearance.

fran

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=511468

Investigators have learned Swanson was drinking earlier in the evening on the night he disappeared, but Dahl says there isn't evidence he was impaired.

Swanson's father says his son seemed fine when he called from his cell phone to tell his parents he had driven into the ditch.

Searchers are concentrating their efforts on a branch of the Yellow Medicine River near Taunton, about a quarter mile from where Swanson's car was found.

"We're looking in the water again today," said Stella Swanson, Brandon's Grandmother. "We just hope it doesn't turn out to be foul play, because it just seems like we can't find him."

[DeltaDawn]

FWIW they still haven't found Brandon Swanson in Minnesota yet. :(

Here's a snippet I added to his 'missing' thread. I guess he may have been out drinking prior to his disappearance.

fran

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=511468

Investigators have learned Swanson was drinking earlier in the evening on the night he disappeared, but Dahl says there isn't evidence he was impaired.

Swanson's father says his son seemed fine when he called from his cell phone to tell his parents he had driven into the ditch.

Searchers are concentrating their efforts on a branch of the Yellow Medicine River near Taunton, about a quarter mile from where Swanson's car was found.

"We're looking in the water again today," said Stella Swanson, Brandon's Grandmother. "We just hope it doesn't turn out to be foul play, because it just seems like we can't find him."

Geez..it isn't looking too good for Brandon. If his is the case I am thinking of he was talking on the cell phone with his parents and said he was in Lynd or around Lynd at the time..but cellphone records don't show that at all. Somehow he was very confused in relation to where he actually was..yet didn't sound drunk or confused to his parents on the phone?

[DeltaDawn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_(video_game)

WIKI article about the game MANHUNT. The problem is the timing, this game wasn't released until 2003. The drowning deaths started to take place much earlier. But I am wondering if the deaths took a high spike after the release of this game? Maybe the number of deaths have increased over the last few years?

[looneymama]

FWIW they still haven't found Brandon Swanson in Minnesota yet. :(

Here's a snippet I added to his 'missing' thread. I guess he may have been out drinking prior to his disappearance.



If that's the case, I wonder if he got out of the car because he is a minor since we have the "not a drop" law.

[fran]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhunt_(video_game)

WIKI article about the game MANHUNT. The problem is the timing, this game wasn't released until 2003. The drowning deaths started to take place much earlier. But I am wondering if the deaths took a high spike after the release of this game? Maybe the number of deaths have increased over the last few years?

Most definitely, have they increased!

JMHO
fran

[fran]

Geez..it isn't looking too good for Brandon. If his is the case I am thinking of he was talking on the cell phone with his parents and said he was in Lynd or around Lynd at the time..but cellphone records don't show that at all. Somehow he was very confused in relation to where he actually was..yet didn't sound drunk or confused to his parents on the phone?

He had been in Lynd earlier in the evening. I don't think his car was located not all that far, time-wise, from Lynd, so he may have just said that because that's the last city' name he remembered.

Just a thought,
fran

[fran]

If that's the case, I wonder if he got out of the car because he is a minor since we have the "not a drop" law.

I thought maybe he thought he'd try and walk back to town to meet his dad. I think they may have arranged to meet at the Lyndon, or something like that.

JMHO
fran

[cheko1]

FWIW they still haven't found Brandon Swanson in Minnesota yet. :(

Here's a snippet I added to his 'missing' thread. I guess he may have been out drinking prior to his disappearance.

fran

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=511468

Investigators have learned Swanson was drinking earlier in the evening on the night he disappeared, but Dahl says there isn't evidence he was impaired.

Swanson's father says his son seemed fine when he called from his cell phone to tell his parents he had driven into the ditch.

Searchers are concentrating their efforts on a branch of the Yellow Medicine River near Taunton, about a quarter mile from where Swanson's car was found.

"We're looking in the water again today," said Stella Swanson, Brandon's Grandmother. "We just hope it doesn't turn out to be foul play, because it just seems like we can't find him."

Thanks for the update Fran!
I don't think this is going to have a very good outcome.

[Blink34]

I have pretty much stayed away because of the tension too. There are people that love to argue, they don't care what they argue about, they just love to argue. SL appears to be that type of person. I hope he was only being sarcastic about the reward.

MCDraw- you have insightful posts, it would be unfortunate if you or anyone else stays away because of one poster, that is also my fear.
Your help is needed and wanted:blowkiss:

[SuziQ]

Fran, thank you for the update on Brandon. It doesn't look good for him.

[shadowraiths]

the mean IQ of known serial killers is in excess of 160
Not sure where you got this idea as the research on serial killers does not even remotely support this contention. In fact, research indicates that the mean IQ of serial killers is average to below average (see Eric Hickey, Serial Murders and their Victims, 2006).

[RR0004]

For me, it is worth it if it stops this- or catches a perp- I also believe it is easy enough to track- they don't just cough over reward cash without reviewing the claimant- Also, KARMA..
Ah, karma! I do hold stock in that.
Thanks for the explanation.

[Blink34]

Not sure where you got this idea as the research on serial killers does not even remotely support this contention. In fact, research indicates that the mean IQ of serial killers is average to below average (see Eric Hickey, Serial Murders and their Victims, 2006).

Shadow- I was referring to the "organized variety" of serial killers, which I think by all accounts we would agree if that is who is responsible, their MO would match vs. disorganized- However, I meant 120+, not 160, so that was my error. My point was that I did not think the perp profile here is either disorganized or thoughtless as they poster indicated. Thanks for the correction.
Ted Bundy 120-140 depending upon who was testing
Michael Ross 122
Joel Rifkin 128

From Wiki:
Organized/Nonsocial Offenders are usually of high intelligence, have an above average IQ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient) (120+ range), and plan their crimes quite methodically, usually abducting victims, killing them in one place and disposing of them in another. They will often lure the victims with ploys appealing to their sense of sympathy. For example, Ted Bundy would put his arm in a fake plaster cast and ask women to help him carry something to his car, where he would beat them unconscious with a metal bar (e.g. a crowbar), and carry them away. Others specifically target prostitutes, who are likely to voluntarily go with a serial killer posing as a customer. They maintain a high degree of control over the crime scene, and usually have a solid knowledge of forensic science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_science) that enables them to cover their tracks, such as by burying the body or weighing it down and sinking it in a river. They follow their crimes in the media carefully and often take pride in their actions, as if it were a grand project. The organized killer is usually socially adequate, has friends and lovers, and sometimes even a spouse and children. They are the type who, when captured, are most likely to be described by acquaintances as kind and unlikely to hurt anyone. Some serial killers go to lengths to make their crimes difficult to discover, such as falsifying suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide) notes, setting up others to take the blame for their crimes, and faking gang warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_warfare) or natural deaths. Coral Watts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Eugene_Watts), Ted Bundy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy), and John Wayne Gacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy) are well-known examples of this type of serial killer.

[ArizonaGiGi]

I do believe that this is the work of killers and not just drunk college boys simply falling into water and drowning but I can't understand one thing.

- :confused: Why has no one ever heard or seen anything out of the ordinary near the rivers where the boys died? Wouldn't the boys scream or yell if they were being forcibly drowned? Wouldn't SOMEONE hear the scuffle or see it? I have read all the posts, over time, so pls forgive me if this has been addressed earlier on here.

[fran]

I do believe that this is the work of killers and not just drunk college boys simply falling into water and drowning but I can't understand one thing.

- :confused: Why has no one ever heard or seen anything out of the ordinary near the rivers where the boys died? Wouldn't the boys scream or yell if they were being forcibly drowned? Wouldn't SOMEONE hear the scuffle or see it? I have read all the posts, over time, so pls forgive me if this has been addressed earlier on here.

They could be unconscious when they are placed into the water? It's early morning hours and no one around?

See the Indiana thread. There's an interesting post, 2nd or 3rd I believe. A letter from a mother of a student who MAY have been one who 'got away.'

Hope this helps,
fran

[DeltaDawn]

The thing with fresh water drowning is that very little, maybe a teaspoon to a tablespoon of water is in the lungs are death. This to me leaves options available, meaning these young men could've been so drugged and so sedated that placed in water, within time, just the current washing over them could have caused death by drowning. Prior to that, I believe, they went through heinous mental and physical torture.

[DeltaDawn]

As far as intelligence goes within these groups, I believe that at the top you have very intelligent, very organized perps..who oversee this whole nationwide network and are in collaboration with each other. The people who actually carry out the abductions are less informed and simply followers, maybe even paid to kidnap, who are very adept at these things and doing what they are told. In the middle comes more followers participating in the ritual deaths of these young men. All hoping to up their status within the group.

[SheerLuck]

I do believe that this is the work of killers and not just drunk college boys simply falling into water and drowning but I can't understand one thing.

- :confused: Why has no one ever heard or seen anything out of the ordinary near the rivers where the boys died? Wouldn't the boys scream or yell if they were being forcibly drowned? Wouldn't SOMEONE hear the scuffle or see it? I have read all the posts, over time, so pls forgive me if this has been addressed earlier on here.

If your dead or unconscious from GHB, there isn't much of a scuffle. slowly lowering a bidy into ice water at 4:00 a.m. can be done quietly

[SheerLuck]

SuziQ- sorry that I bailed so quickly without responding...had lost track of time...there just seemed to be so much tension on the board...I couldn't figure out why.

I don't think SL was really out for any reward...just being sarcastic I suppose. No room for that here.

Obviously I'm not out for "reward money". Through a friend I've sent helpful info to a family member. My profile of the killers was posted here several days before Gannons which matched mine to a t. Angry, Stupid, Evil Morons is the profile. The best help for the detectives is pictures from inside of any bars on any nights these kids were abducted. Older retired detectives from NYC tend to like the chase and the hunt; the real investigation. They like to be out there in the woods more than searching the internet. If the evil morons are stupid enough to be committing the crimes starting from within the bars; then there's a slim chance a kid might be caught in photos from different bars on the same night that a kid died. I have nothing more to offer except that a kid who drives drunk and crashes is most likely not connected; neither are video games or books made or written after 1997 when the crimes began(if they are connected). I'm trying to help, I know what I'm doing and have a good understanding of the criminal mind, but I'm the combative type. Thats all; I need a week off now

[looneymama]

The best help for the detectives is pictures from inside of any bars on any nights these kids were abducted.

Good idea...I bet SS wishes she would've thought of that! Oh wait...she did http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64751 :crazy:

[ArizonaGiGi]

They could be unconscious when they are placed into the water? It's early morning hours and no one around?

See the Indiana thread. There's an interesting post, 2nd or 3rd I believe. A letter from a mother of a student who MAY have been one who 'got away.'

Hope this helps,
fran


thanks fran. so the bartender is responsible for spiking that kids drink. and he has a small group at the bar that are in on it too. that would pretty much make it random selection of victim. ie; how in the world did the bartender know that "joe blow" was going to be in the bar drinking THAT night? perhaps some of the crimes are random and some are targeted. who knows.
interesting story posted by the mom, thanks again

[ArizonaGiGi]

If your dead or unconscious from GHB, there isn't much of a scuffle. slowly lowering a bidy into ice water at 4:00 a.m. can be done quietly

ya but the me/le rule it drowning. m.e. should be able to tell if they were dead or alive when the water got into their lungs i would think. will hafta research that one and get back to ya asap.

[RR0004]

Obviously I'm not out for "reward money". Through a friend I've sent helpful info to a family member. My profile of the killers was posted here several days before Gannons which matched mine to a t. Angry, Stupid, Evil Morons is the profile. The best help for the detectives is pictures from inside of any bars on any nights these kids were abducted. Older retired detectives from NYC tend to like the chase and the hunt; the real investigation. They like to be out there in the woods more than searching the internet. If the evil morons are stupid enough to be committing the crimes starting from within the bars; then there's a slim chance a kid might be caught in photos from different bars on the same night that a kid died. I have nothing more to offer except that a kid who drives drunk and crashes is most likely not connected; neither are video games or books made or written after 1997 when the crimes began(if they are connected). I'm trying to help, I know what I'm doing and have a good understanding of the criminal mind, but I'm the combative type. Thats all; I need a week off now
Ok-SL-now I am confused...I thought you were away this weekend.
FYI- most cameras are on a loop...generally a limited number of hours...before they are taped over. These bodies are usually not found for some time. Checking out bars' cameras months later won't be of much use IMO. It would be different if they could target a bar that has been associated with multiple disappearances, but that's not the case. Also, the detectives asked for help funding their investigation. If you think they need more help in searching the internet, perhaps money could be sent that's earmarked for setting up a special "division" to do just that. We've also recently discussed that the detectives demeanor belies their words. Perhaps, they are trying to flush out the killers some how?

[RR0004]

ya but the me/le rule it drowning. m.e. should be able to tell if they were dead or alive when the water got into their lungs i would think. will hafta research that one and get back to ya asap.
Arizona...that's been discussed. I believe the premise to be they're unconscious at the time of entry into the water. Or they're being held down in the water. I've been going over some pictures of these rivers where the bodies have been found, pretty scary bodies of water. Though we don't know all points of entry, and yes, some of these rivers/bodies of water have been close to where the victims were last seen, many of the bodies of water were a way off and I just find it difficult to believe that some of these victims wandered off to these very scary places and decided to walk into them in the dead of night!

[looneymama]

Arizona...that's been discussed. I believe the premise to be they're unconscious at the time of entry into the water. Or they're being held down in the water. I've been going over some pictures of these rivers where the bodies have been found, pretty scary bodies of water. Though we don't know all points of entry, and yes, some of these rivers/bodies of water have been close to where the victims were last seen, many of the bodies of water were a way off and I just find it difficult to believe that some of these victims wandered off to these very scary places and decided to walk into them in the dead of night!

This is something that makes me wonder as well. I don't know about many of these places but I do know that certain areas of the Mississippi are hard enough to walk to sober on a sunny day let alone drunk enough to "accidentally" stumble into the river in the dark. Some parts are so wooded you hardly feel like you're in the middle of the city.

[SeriouslySearching]

I feel for the family or families being contacted by anyone here with lame theories. We don't do that for the simple reason they are in such an emotional place and to add to their pain is unneccessary plus highly irresponsible.

It is even worse that they could consider this something that WS members are responsible for doing! Just in a time where WS is being recognized in so many areas for the good work we do, having someone come in and prey upon the families is wrong on so many levels. It isn't the way we do things nor should we sit by and allow other members to prey on the families of victims.

I have gotten to the point where I don't care to put out ideas because of the situation here. I would hate to think it has come to this, but as you can clearly see...whatever we do come up with...is being used for less than credible, personal purposes. It needs to stop.

We can't stop trolls, but we can quit feeding them.

[Blink34]

Ok-SL-now I am confused...I thought you were away this weekend.
FYI- most cameras are on a loop...generally a limited number of hours...before they are taped over. These bodies are usually not found for some time. Checking out bars' cameras months later won't be of much use IMO. It would be different if they could target a bar that has been associated with multiple disappearances, but that's not the case. Also, the detectives asked for help funding their investigation. If you think they need more help in searching the internet, perhaps money could be sent that's earmarked for setting up a special "division" to do just that. We've also recently discussed that the detectives demeanor belies their words. Perhaps, they are trying to flush out the killers some how?

To expand on RR's very good point. One of the major mistakes in these investigtions is exactly how they ar handled from the onset.. ie: in the case of Nick Garza, and others, there is a common LE attitude that these kids wither contributed to their own situation and they lag in opening a mp investigation. OR, and has been recently addressed in some of the newer cases, the MP case NEVER turns into a potential criminal investigation.
Reason- there is no obvious evidence of foul play. This has critically wounded any attempts to USE immediate available evidence (footage from bars/nightclubs before it copies over) question and/or find bar participants, utilize on-scene evidence, etc.. I hope that one of the outcomes of these cases is that the way MP cases are handled in this country is radically changed.

[Blink34]

ya but the me/le rule it drowning. m.e. should be able to tell if they were dead or alive when the water got into their lungs i would think. will hafta research that one and get back to ya asap.

It is possible to drown close to immediately if you are already unconscious when going into the water. Additionally GHB is nearly undetectable after I think 8 hours, TOD is unrelated. Several vics had very little water in the lungs, and the Coroner (most cases- this is a whole 'nother issue if you ask me). The accidental drowning becomes more of an exclusionary COD based on absence of any other, which unfortunately is correct under the finding of fact.

[Silver~Bell]

Guys and Gals, I am in a big rush and I apologize if this has been posted earlier, I can't go thru the thread thoroughly right now, and frankly, what I have read in #4 I just don't understand what is going on!!!!!!!!! :blowkiss: Yes I'm slow.

But here is my tidbit, from an AP story, it is about the Russian ice dancer who was drugged with a drug LIKE GHB but different:

~snip~ abcnews.go.com:

Deputies initially said Grishuk's drinks had been spiked with the date-rape drug GHB. On Friday, Amormino said the drug was Nimetazepam, which is similar to GHB but usually found in Asia and Europe.


You know, toxicology isn't "magic." It doesn't automatically test the tissue/water/whatever and spit out EVERY CHEMICAL in there. They test for certain things.

I bet you a bright shiny Euro they are not testing for this horrible Asia/Europe version of the date-rape drug!!!! OMG will the bad guys ever stop inventing things to hurt others???

Well it's got me thinking...

Ta 'till later, stay safe everyone...

[Silver~Bell]

[quote=SeriouslySearching;2242934]Again, SL...you are wrong about the tasers or stun guns not leaving visible marks. We did the research already quote]

You sure I'm wrong? As far as I know tasers often leave no marks and sometimes they leave just tiny pin pricks. If you have a friend who's a cop ask him or her. Sometimes its beter than a google search; or research google for words like maybe taser leave no marks. As I know it, for the sadistic cop; they've replaced the baton because you can torture and leave almost no sign of torture. And for autopsies of bodies pulled out of ice water; "no trauma" means no broken bones or major bruises, but do you think a couple of tiny pin pricks from a taser would be noticed? As I said; I think GHB was the drug of choice in these drownings, but I also think a taser is possible if some of these kids were abducted off the street. Its been nice talking with you and your lady friends; I'm leaving town for the weekend; so have a nice weekend


I put forth the stun gun idea way back, and it was also shot down.

But I do think my fellow WSers are wrong :blowkiss: about the marks, they can be EXTREMELY light and they can also be obliterated in the water very quickly! Remember that many of these guys are not found for a long time. Stun Guns could certainly be used. This is from the horses' mouths, my LE neighbors. They actually SHOT one another with Tasers and used Stun Guns on each other as part of their SWAT training. They also ate raw chicken but that's another story. I still think stun guns are "in" the realm of possibility, along with the drugging.

[fran]

thanks fran. so the bartender is responsible for spiking that kids drink. and he has a small group at the bar that are in on it too. that would pretty much make it random selection of victim. ie; how in the world did the bartender know that "joe blow" was going to be in the bar drinking THAT night? perhaps some of the crimes are random and some are targeted. who knows.
interesting story posted by the mom, thanks again


The detectives said they believe the students are targeted. I believe that's possible in part, but also random. I think some of the cases are as simple as opportunity.

There are a couple of the cases, including Tommy Booth, where they were drinking in a bar with their friend one minute and the next minute they're missing and found later drowned.

This points to 'inside the bar,' possibly the bartender involvement.

There's a couple of other cases where the victim was seen talking to a 'stranger(s).'

This COULD point to bartender involvement or someone 'inside the bar' slipping something in their drink.

One thing I've found is there are two bartenders 'missing.' Their cars have been located but the bartenders are missing without a trace. I haven't located a drowned student from their particular bars, however, interestingly enough, one of the bartenders was at a bootleggers. It is in another state from the one in which a student is missing, but what IF he knew of this alleged bigger plot of murders?

For the first few years, these happenings seemed to be concentrated in a specific area. But, as time progressed, it spread. It's like when the 'heat' started rising in the Wisconsin area in particular, they then 'moved' their location. Once the 'serial killer' idea began to be discussed, they realized in order to NOT get caught, or fuel this was the work of the 'same person(s),' they began in new locations.

IF a number of this year's drownings and disappearances are related, it appears these cases have hit a frenzied pitch. There are more than 20 cases. Some could be isolated incidents, but good grief!

The original cases appeared to be along the I94. But, now that this fact of the I94 somehow being one of the connecting facts, the cases have started popping up in a number of locations all over the Great Lakes area, New England states, all the way down to North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia. I have three cases alone in North Carolina for this school year. (two missing (one bartender) one drowned)

FWIW, in the southern states, more of the guys are missing and not found drowned. Many of them, their car was located but the young man is 'missing without a trace.'

Either these serial killers are very good at hiding their tracks, or there is a definit danger of a young man being alone late at night into the early morning hours. :(

JMHO
fran

[RR0004]

I feel for the family or families being contacted by anyone here with lame theories. We don't do that for the simple reason they are in such an emotional place and to add to their pain is unneccessary plus highly irresponsible.

It is even worse that they could consider this something that WS members are responsible for doing! Just in a time where WS is being recognized in so many areas for the good work we do, having someone come in and prey upon the families is wrong on so many levels. It isn't the way we do things nor should we sit by and allow other members to prey on the families of victims.

I have gotten to the point where I don't care to put out ideas because of the situation here. I would hate to think it has come to this, but as you can clearly see...whatever we do come up with...is being used for less than credible, personal purposes. It needs to stop.

We can't stop trolls, but we can quit feeding them.
SS- Now I'm afraid I really DID miss something. Families are being contacted? That's reprehensible IMO. I have found information we've discussed cited elsewhere (by reporters), but for the good as it's purpose has been to highlight these cases. There's no room here for personal agendas. These boards should be solely for intelligent discussion and elaboration of the facts. I, for one, would like to know how to recognize the "negative" impact (if you know what I mean). Can you be more specific?

[SuziQ]

SS- Now I'm afraid I really DID miss something. Families are being contacted? That's reprehensible IMO. I have found information we've discussed cited elsewhere (by reporters), but for the good as it's purpose has been to highlight these cases. There's no room here for personal agendas. These boards should be solely for intelligent discussion and elaboration of the facts. I, for one, would like to know how to recognize the "negative" impact (if you know what I mean). Can you be more specific?

SL has stated in several posts that they are contacting grieving family members of the vics in this thread. SL's agendas could be several, reward money maybe. To say the least, SL will be yanking the chain of grieving and desperate family members for the sole purpose of getting SL's own rocks off. THAT'S completely disgusting, predatory, and a potential PR nightmare for WS. I will not take part in it. I've reported Sheerluck to the mods and will no longer feed the troll.

ETA: I know you addressed SS. But I wanted to jump in.

[SuziQ]

~snip~ abcnews.go.com:

Deputies initially said Grishuk's drinks had been spiked with the date-rape drug GHB. On Friday, Amormino said the drug was Nimetazepam, which is similar to GHB but usually found in Asia and Europe.


You know, toxicology isn't "magic." It doesn't automatically test the tissue/water/whatever and spit out EVERY CHEMICAL in there. They test for certain things.

I bet you a bright shiny Euro they are not testing for this horrible Asia/Europe version of the date-rape drug!!!! OMG will the bad guys ever stop inventing things to hurt others???

Well it's got me thinking...

Ta 'till later, stay safe everyone...

Very interesting! It would seem that a halfway decent hobby chemist could create their own concoction with no problem. And how would an ME hazard to guess what to test for?

[Blink34]

SL has stated in several posts that they are contacting grieving family members of the vics in this thread. SL's agendas could be several, reward money maybe. To say the least, SL will be yanking the chain of grieving and desperate family members for the sole purpose of getting SL's own rocks off. THAT'S completely disgusting, predatory, and a potential PR nightmare for WS. I will not take part in it. I've reported Sheerluck to the mods and will no longer feed the troll.

ETA: I know you addressed SS. But I wanted to jump in.

Thank you SS, SQ, RR- I missed any earlier post that SL was contacting family members on this thread- that may be the sickest form of cruelty I can think of- and I pray that it is dealt with appropriately. Unbelievable.
My husband constantly tells me I am niave, now I gotta cop to it, again.

[Blink34]

The detectives said they believe the students are targeted. I believe that's possible in part, but also random. I think some of the cases are as simple as opportunity.

There are a couple of the cases, including Tommy Booth, where they were drinking in a bar with their friend one minute and the next minute they're missing and found later drowned.

This points to 'inside the bar,' possibly the bartender involvement.

There's a couple of other cases where the victim was seen talking to a 'stranger(s).'

This COULD point to bartender involvement or someone 'inside the bar' slipping something in their drink.

One thing I've found is there are two bartenders 'missing.' Their cars have been located but the bartenders are missing without a trace. I haven't located a drowned student from their particular bars, however, interestingly enough, one of the bartenders was at a bootleggers. It is in another state from the one in which a student is missing, but what IF he knew of this alleged bigger plot of murders?

For the first few years, these happenings seemed to be concentrated in a specific area. But, as time progressed, it spread. It's like when the 'heat' started rising in the Wisconsin area in particular, they then 'moved' their location. Once the 'serial killer' idea began to be discussed, they realized in order to NOT get caught, or fuel this was the work of the 'same person(s),' they began in new locations.

IF a number of this year's drownings and disappearances are related, it appears these cases have hit a frenzied pitch. There are more than 20 cases. Some could be isolated incidents, but good grief!

The original cases appeared to be along the I94. But, now that this fact of the I94 somehow being one of the connecting facts, the cases have started popping up in a number of locations all over the Great Lakes area, New England states, all the way down to North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia. I have three cases alone in North Carolina for this school year. (two missing (one bartender) one drowned)

FWIW, in the southern states, more of the guys are missing and not found drowned. Many of them, their car was located but the young man is 'missing without a trace.'

Either these serial killers are very good at hiding their tracks, or there is a definit danger of a young man being alone late at night into the early morning hours. :(

JMHO
fran

Unfortunately Fran, I fear the latter-
Have you posted the names/potential vics of the bartenders/club owner you refereneced and their stats, here or on potential vics thread?

[fran]

Very interesting! It would seem that a halfway decent hobby chemist could create their own concoction with no problem. And how would an ME hazard to guess what to test for?

SuzieQ, a few weeks ago I linked a site that talked about GHB and how the ingredients vary, making it almost impossible for LE to trace because they have to know what to look for before they can test for it. It's kinda' like meth. These guys are constantly changing the recipe to include drugs that aren't on the 'watch list,' and they end up getting off of their drug charges.

From what I could gather, there's a number of ingredients that can be added and subtracted to have the same effect. Oh, and GHB is a HUGE problem, even people becoming addicted to it.

FWIW, ehhh, I know someone who's a forensic chemist. ;)

JMHO
fran

[fran]

Unfortunately Fran, I fear the latter-
Have you posted the names/potential vics of the bartenders/club owner you refereneced and their stats, here or on potential vics thread?

Blink:

You know, I've added a few here and there, but as far as these go, I don't know if I've added them. I'm a little hesitant to add all the names I've come up with.

Seriously, you all would think I'm nuts!:eek:

fran

[fran]

SL has stated in several posts that they are contacting grieving family members of the vics in this thread. SL's agendas could be several, reward money maybe. To say the least, SL will be yanking the chain of grieving and desperate family members for the sole purpose of getting SL's own rocks off. THAT'S comp