Appeals Court: TX Had No Right to Remove Kids

[Shamrock]

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- The state of Texas should not have removed more than 400 children it took from a polygamist sect's ranch, an appeals court ruled Thursday.

Earlier this year, authorities raided the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, Texas, after they received reports of child abuse.

About 460 children were taken from the ranch, which is run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a polygamist sect linked to the jailed "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

[Pepper]

This is NOT good news, but I expect it will go to a higher court. The ruling did not say the children have to be returned, and it did not say the investigation had to be stopped.

I just hope this doesn't garner sympathy for this group.

[Ladybass0711]

I am DUMBFOUNDED! Holy crap, what are these judes thinking!!!!!!!!!

[Shamrock]

I guess I should have put this under 'court rulings' instead of starting a new thread. Oops.

[Ladybass0711]

no we needed a new thread.


But, if this flies, EVERY parent who has there children taken away by STATE now has a leg to stand on. Some people just don't think about the ramifications!

[Linda7NJ]

Geeez...I am shocked! Please take good notes of the press conference as I have to go out and will miss it:)

[Ladybass0711]

Will Do, I guess there is international law as well. Hubby says if all else fails Federal agents can put them in federal protective custody due to the vioolation of the "Man act" That is if Texas supreme court rules against CPS.

[mysteriew]

no we needed a new thread.


But, if this flies, EVERY parent who has there children taken away by STATE now has a leg to stand on. Some people just don't think about the ramifications!

Not necessarily. The procedure for removing kids in general is pretty tested and proved. The new issue here is that CPS is treating the compound as one household. That is most likely what the court is questioning.

[Shamrock]

Geeez...I am shocked! Please take good notes of the press conference as I have to go out and will miss it:)

Yes, please. I can't watch it either so if someone is available to take notes, it would be greatly appreciated. :blowkiss:

[Ladybass0711]

I will catch it on CNN, I don't know if MSNBC will have anything extra.

[tnajk]

Here is the ruling:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/05/22/mandamus.decision.pdf

It's terrible! I'm outraged. Those poor children. :mad:

[Ladybass0711]

As per CNN

Per FLDS Attorney

Its not clear when families will be reunited.

The court of Appeals, gives the trial court 10 days to follow the order.
The court order only covers 39 woman and children, but they feel it will apply to all children because the appelate court did not find CPS had legal right to take the children.

Within 10 days the trial court that originally made the ruling must reverse that ruling, and allow the children to be returned, or the appelate court will mandate return. UNLESS CPS files an appeal with the state supreme court in which case the original ruling would remain in affect until after the supreme court rules.

The court ruled that cps was wrong in saying that the whole compoound was a household. There was evidence to the contrary that there were individual households. They cannot apply "abuse" to the entire ranch as there was individual households.

grrr they broke away to cover the tornadoes in colorado

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

This goes back to the issue of "Did Texas overstep their bounds" and "why hasn't Utah/ Arizona etc done this before. I hate to say this, but the system in America is set up in such a way that it is very difficult to do what is right (ie, stop the sexual assults on young girls). Texas took a strong position. Unfortunately, it is going to be very tough to uphold their stance.

I actually really liked the plans for getting the kids back. I agree that they were vague, but they made it clear that the children had to be in a home free of abuse, be educated, and understand and abide by the law. I thought the steps were reasonable and beneficial to the long term health, safety, and mental status of the people involved.

[Sally]

Well I know that this opinion is unpopular but I'm glad for this ruling. I voted in the poll somewhere on this forum that Texas had overstepped their bounds.

[mykodiak]

Well, Texas knew it was in for a hard battle from day one. I don't think that all of their cards have been played yet. With the FLDS's documented history of re-assigning women and children at the whim of their "prophet", I think CPS had a valid reason to consider the compound as one household. To them it was simply one large dorm...albeit split into different buildings.

[Pepper]

Well I know that this opinion is unpopular but I'm glad for this ruling. I voted in the poll somewhere on this forum that Texas had overstepped their bounds.

It isn't about whether this is a "popular" decision or not. It is about the welfare of the children. So I am curious about how closely you've followed this story. Have you read the links where former FLDS women have spoken of the child abuse that routinely goes on? Have you read any books about this cult? Are you aware of the changes in the cult rules after Warren Jeffs took over?

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I just want know that it is an informed opinion, and not just relying on headlines to color your belief.

[mysteriew]

I think of the compound like a huge college or terrorist paramilitary post. They are there for one purpose. Instead of education or terrorist training it is the pursuit of one religous ideal. And that religious ideal is in direct violation of current law. Instead of remaining in the states where the law has made allowances for them, they set out to 'colonize' a new state. And instead of trying to change that states laws, they only flouted the current laws- just like a paramilitary organization. And just like a college, they 'teach' others how to violate the law.

If this were a large company, like maybe a drug running company, when police came on site they would arrest everyone who resided there. Whether they were actively there to engage in the drug running or whether they were only there to cook meals. Whether they were in an active or supportive role, they were all engaged in the drug running.

Texas doesn't have much choice, they will have to fight this in the courts, and they will now have to begin their criminal case to bolster their court case.

[Ladybass0711]

Supposedly God is punishing all outsiders, for taking the FLDS children. The prophet controls the weather etc. As reported by Flora Jessops, who has heard this throught the grapevine.

[mollymalone]

I think of the compound like a huge college or terrorist paramilitary post. They are there for one purpose. Instead of education or terrorist training it is the pursuit of one religous ideal. And that religious ideal is in direct violation of current law. Instead of remaining in the states where the law has made allowances for them, they set out to 'colonize' a new state. And instead of trying to change that states laws, they only flouted the current laws- just like a paramilitary organization. And just like a college, they 'teach' others how to violate the law.

SNIP

Texas doesn't have much choice, they will have to fight this in the courts, and they will now have to begin their criminal case to bolster their court case.Perhaps this is how CPS will explain that to the supreme court. They've actually started colonizing more than just Texas and they are flouting not only state laws, but federal. Between Rico laws and the Mann Act, there are more than enough candidates for prosecution among them.

[Sally]

It isn't about whether this is a "popular" decision or not. It is about the welfare of the children. So I am curious about how closely you've followed this story. Have you read the links where former FLDS women have spoken of the child abuse that routinely goes on? Have you read any books about this cult? Are you aware of the changes in the cult rules after Warren Jeffs took over?

Certainly you are entitled to your opinion. I just want know that it is an informed opinion, and not just relying on headlines to color your belief.

With all due respect, I don't feel that I need to justify or qualify the legitimacy of my opinion. The FLDS cult is an old one and you can't live or travel in Colorado, Utah or Arizona without having some awareness of them. I feel I'm pretty well informed on the topic and am well aware of the abuse. My opinion of which I hold firm to, is that the state of Texas overstepped it's bounds. Yes, as you said this is about the welfare of the children and it's also about civil rights.

[mysteriew]

Supposedly God is punishing all outsiders, for taking the FLDS children. The prophet controls the weather etc. As reported by Flora Jessops, who has heard this throught the grapevine.

Well gee, if I promise to say "I Believe" three times, can Warren assure me of a warm dry summer, not too hot not too cold with just enough rain that my garden will grow? And a mild winter?

[Shamrock]

Supposedly God is punishing all outsiders, for taking the FLDS children. The prophet controls the weather etc. As reported by Flora Jessops, who has heard this throught the grapevine.

Riiiiiight. :bang:These people are nuts!!

[mollymalone]

It's absolutely about civil rights...the rights of the children not to be abused or forced into underage marriages.

Regardless of whether CPS went the right way about it or the wrong way, it has certainly focused attention upon the sect and its practices, the abuse;underage marriages; lost boys; and its financial finagling. That's something the flds can't be happy about and its long overdue.

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

Well gee, if I promise to say "I Believe" three times, can Warren assure me of a warm dry summer, not too hot not too cold with just enough rain that my garden will grow? And a mild winter?

No, but global warming will do that.

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

With all due respect, I don't feel that I need to justify or qualify the legitimacy of my opinion. The FLDS cult is an old one and you can't live or travel in Colroado, Utah or Arizona without having some awareness of them. I feel I'm pretty well informed on the topic and am well aware of the abuse. My opinion of which I hold firm to, is that the state of Texas overstepped it's bounds. Yes, as you said this is about the welfare of the children and it's also about civil rights.

Sally,
I will stand behind you on this one. I am not saying whether i agree or disagree that Texas over stepped their bounds. But, the judge obviously agrees that Texas over stepped their bounds. It isn't just about the kids. It is also about following the correct procedures. Texas took a pretty bold step in this case that will be tough to uphold.

[Pepper]

With all due respect, I don't feel that I need to justify or qualify the legitimacy of my opinion. The FLDS cult is an old one and you can't live or travel in Colorado, Utah or Arizona without having some awareness of them. I feel I'm pretty well informed on the topic and am well aware of the abuse. My opinion of which I hold firm to, is that the state of Texas overstepped it's bounds. Yes, as you said this is about the welfare of the children and it's also about civil rights.

Yep, and when the rights of the child are weighed against the civil rights of the parents, I will always be on th side of the children. Parent's don't own their children, and these kids have a right to live without the fear of an unwarranted beating or being forced to sleep with their uncle.

It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. My prayers and concerns will always be for the children.

[mysteriew]

Sally,
I will stand behind you on this one. I am not saying whether i agree or disagree that Texas over stepped their bounds. But, the judge obviously agrees that Texas over stepped their bounds. It isn't just about the kids. It is also about following the correct procedures. Texas took a pretty bold step in this case that will be tough to uphold.

That is true, the appeals court upheld the FLDS. So it puts the action in question, but doesn't necessarily make it a bad action. Instead it will have to work it's way up the justice chain. I think this one will go to the Supreme Court- and that could take years. Many of these kids will have aged out of the system before this will be final.

[Leila]

I heard this on Fox News.............I'm shocked! I hope this is appealed to a higher court ASAP!

I fear that when and if the FLDS recovers their children, they will disappear.

[believe09]

It's absolutely about civil rights...the rights of the children not to be abused or forced into underage marriages.

Regardless of whether CPS went the right way about it or the wrong way, it has certainly focused attention upon the sect and its practices, the abuse;underage marriages; lost boys; and its financial finagling. That's something the flds can't be happy about and its long overdue.

I am unaware that CPS proved that there were underage marriages in place. My understanding of the ruling today was that CPS did not prove to the appeals court that the children were in clear and imminent physical danger when they were taken, and that the potential of future abuse in the households affiliated with the sect was not sufficient proof that the harm would take place. Further, that CPS did not do enough to attempt to keep the children with the parents as they are mandated to do....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

In terms of the appeals court not vacating the ruling or specifically ordering the children returned, I think that this a common courtesy in a case where there is not some egregious ruling on the part of the lower court; it was clear this action would not hold up without blatant evidence-I think what is more shocking to me is that in 460 children, they could not find a single compelling case of documented abuse? 'Cause man, the state could at least hang their hat on one and show that they at least truly rescued one child....

[Ladybass0711]

I heard this on Fox News.............I'm shocked! I hope this is appealed to a higher court ASAP!

I fear that when and if the FLDS recovers their children, they will disappear.


I just heard that even if they are returned to the parents. The texas courts could put a requirment, that NONE of the children be taken out of Texas. Which is a good thing, dunno if it would be followed, but worth a shot.

[golfmom]

Wow ... just simply ... wow.

[Sally]

Yep, and when the rights of the child are weighed against the civil rights of the parents, I will always be on th side of the children. Parent's don't own their children, and these kids have a right to live without the fear of an unwarranted beating or being forced to sleep with their uncle.

It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. My prayers and concerns will always be for the children.

Nor does the state "own" them; and they better have some very strong evidence that they should be removed from their homes before they do it. What they do to the FLDS they could do to any one of us.

[Rino]

Yep, and when the rights of the child are weighed against the civil rights of the parents, I will always be on th side of the children. Parent's don't own their children, and these kids have a right to live without the fear of an unwarranted beating or being forced to sleep with their uncle.

It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. My prayers and concerns will always be for the children.
Is there an accusation that those who think TX overstepped don't care about the children?

[Trino]

I think what is more shocking to me is that in 460 children, they could not find a single compelling case of documented abuse? 'Cause man, the state could at least hang their hat on one and show that they at least truly rescued one child....

It's ridiculous what it takes to show abuse in today's courts. As long as the kids have food, shelter, and clothing, and no signs of physical trauma, the courts do not see abuse. It's really sad what a life of psychological issues these children will face if returned, but there are non-FLDS kids in the US that are certainly in worse shape.

According to the courts, pologamy, although against the law, must be okay.

If Texas loses big time, I predict FLDS will sue for damages to their compound, maybe even sue because their civil rights were violated. Texas could be facing big time compensation.

[ttrachel04]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Leila]

Nancy Grace is covering this tonight and she's got Flora Jessop as her guest.

[mollymalone]

I am unaware that CPS proved that there were underage marriages in place. My understanding of the ruling today was that CPS did not prove to the appeals court that the children were in clear and imminent physical danger when they were taken, and that the potential of future abuse in the households affiliated with the sect was not sufficient proof that the harm would take place. Further, that CPS did not do enough to attempt to keep the children with the parents as they are mandated to do....

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

In terms of the appeals court not vacating the ruling or specifically ordering the children returned, I think that this a common courtesy in a case where there is not some egregious ruling on the part of the lower court; it was clear this action would not hold up without blatant evidence-I think what is more shocking to me is that in 460 children, they could not find a single compelling case of documented abuse? 'Cause man, the state could at least hang their hat on one and show that they at least truly rescued one child.... When CPS took custody of the children, a lot of former flds members and from the media provided information on the flds practices, including the under age marriages that take place within this sect. Many following this case were/are aware of the flds from way back, but many others were not.

Whatever evidence or information CPS has, I doubt all of it would be presented at this point in time until the investigation(s) were complete, whether that be into the broken bones as they reported, or the underage pregnancies (E.D. Hill reported on Fox tonight that 15 girls were in that category) etc.

We'll see how this turns out eventually, whether it goes to a higher court or not.

[mollymalone]

Journalist: This is only 38 of 170 mothers, the state can appeal, so it will be some time before the children go back to the compound. No, it doesn't mean this case is over, CPS can do individual investigations, independent investigations and sue each family individually, but the court is saying they can't do it as one lumped block.

Nancy: where will each of the children be? Right now, unless this decision is overturned where are the children headed?

Journalist: Most likely they would go home with their parents.

Nancy asked Flora how she felt.
Flora: I'm horrified and I'm hoping that we can appeal the decision. It's important that people realize that this isn't a community, one where you can drive in off the street. This is a compound. You can't get in unless as the guys say you can. They're saying you have to bring your tanks if you want to come back in here. CPS won't have any kind of control at this point.

Nancy: If they can force LE, Texas authorities not to set foot in there, what about a 13 year old girl, how is she going to get out?

Flora: she's not going to be able to get out or get help. They won't let the state come in and check on the children's welfare? There's no way these children can go back there.

Nancy: Checking on the children through monitored visits. How difficult is it going to be?

Jim Elliot: the spokesman said if you have a search warrant, and tanks..
(CPS) they're not there to find evidence, they're there to protect the children.

Guest (Lawyer for FLDS?) They lumped the bad people in with the good people. Court said give us an individual child with imminent harm.They didn't do it.

Nancy: With approximately 100 children, we don't know who their biological parents are. They don't get married in local courthouse with papers.. how are these underage marriages to be found?

Jim : CPS has to figure out a way to go in and protect these girls.
Nancy: what way?
Jim: File an individual case against individual people, and a court order to do the investigation. The court did not say CPS was wrong in going in or that they could not go in and take the children away, court did not say that.

They said at the 14 day hearing they had to have the individual case by case adversarial hearing showing imminent harm, at that point CPS basically blew it.

Caller: If polygamy is illegal in every state...then what makes these 3 judges think they're above Federal law?

Nancy: women not giving name of father's, we're only in a civil proceeding, not in a prosecution of criminal hearing..

Other Guest: Child welfare, burden of proof is so low, they don't need beyond a reasonable doubt, what they need is the preponderance of evidence.. it's hard to believe that they can't prove that with even the bishop's list.
That should be enough for bigamy charges.. Steed, listed a lot of wives and one was a 16 year old wife..They can't find Steed, he's long gone.

Nancy: They're ruling there has to be individual hearings for each child. They live communally, the children aren't sure who the biological mom is!

Flora: children are taken away at 1 year of age and are raised communally. They call them caretakers, not mothers. These kids don't know who their parents are or who their dads are.

Guest: Court ruling is correct because CPS didn't give them what they wanted. In the ...footnotes you can get married in Texas with parental consent. Under 16 you could get married with court order. It's like they're saying go see the parents, see if they gave consent.

Nancy: can you explain the girls that are underage married and pregnant?
Richard: 5, (holds up one hand fingers outspread) 5.
Nancy: Isn't one enough?

[mollymalone]

Nancy: The court stated "If the lower judge does not amend her order, in ten days they will give their own order sending the children back." In lieu of an appeal these children will be headed back.

Nancy: I don't think they understand this is a community, 5 known young girls that have just given birth, it's not about just those 5, they were wedded by the community to older men, the community condoned this. How many more do we have to know of before the panel of judges can accept that this is what goes on behind these walls?

Flora: I don't know how to answer that. We've brought forward hundreds of underage marriages to authorities in Utah and AZ and still nothing was done. The FLDS has stated that they will not keep their children on that compound. They're afraid CPS will come back in. They will be taken to Mexico and Canada, these children will never be seen again. If CPS has no children, they have no case.

Flora explained about abuse: Bruises, they don't touch your face, they hit you where bruises won't show, mentions the long underclothing. This is a white supremacist cult, they teach them hate and violence. These children are brought up in terror and horror.

If you get pregnant when you are in your wife training by your father.. (I think she said something about no medicine or something..) because you ....... you aren't supposed to get pregnant.

Nancy: This ruling acknowledges these girls..
Guest: The court acknowledges this..

Caller: if these women are getting welfare all these years? If they go back will they get welfare again?

Attorney is investigating this. People from his office, even if they leave the state of texas they will go after them.

Nancy: how can you date injuries as to when they occurred?
Guest: Look for multiple fractures that are of different ages, you can tell if in different ages of healing,
especially bruises in shape of hand or objects, or twisting movement.
Nancy: sect members wouldn't allow authorities into the ranch.

Guest: They'll eventually get back on, get a court order. They have every right to be on it, but they'll go get a court order.

Dr. : They'll move the molester out when CPS comes in to check, and when they leave they'll come back in.

[mysteriew]

Legally they are testing new territory so it isn't surprising that it is being kicked upstairs in the system.

[Fairy1]

This ruling makes me sick! If the courts do not find a way to enforce US laws in this case, they will set a tragically dangerous precedent and open floodgates to unspeakable horrors. I pray that TX authorities have what they need to get better reslults than this going forward. These people need to be stopped not just for the children's sake, but for all who are victimized within the "sect."

[cheko1]

I can't imagine the state of Texas leaving themselves wide open for all of the lawsuits which will follow.

CPS has had a awful job. The mothers lie about which child is theirs. They have lied constantly. The kids have been abused, the state don't know who, many of the parents are.

What a catastrophe for the kids! They'll never be able to get out now.

[Fairy1]

I can't imagine the state of Texas leaving themselves wide open for all of the lawsuits which will follow.

CPS has had a awful job. The mothers lie about which child is theirs. They have lied constantly. The kids have been abused, the state don't know who, many of the parents are.

What a catastrophe for the kids! They'll never be able to get out now.

You're right Cheko - these people have not been truthful or forthcoming. These are not trademarks of people who have nothing to hide. But I'm at a loss as to how this court came to the conclusion they did today. I believe Warren Jeffs is laughing his azz off tonight. His people have discovered the perfect way to commit pedophelia - and GOD knows what else - in the name of religion. There will be no stopping freaks who want to commit these acts after this. Call it "religion" and build huge walls around your compound - then do whatever you want. On US soil. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! :banghead::banghead:

[mysteriew]

Don't panic yet. Texas still has the right to file an appeal of the appeal. And like Cheko, I can't imagine them leaving themselves open to lawsuits by not filing it.

The big issue is a legal definition of 'household'. Yes, CPS can remove all the children in the household if they determine abuse is occurring- under the presumption that all of the kids are in danger of being abused. But in this case, they counted the compound one household.

What FLDS is alleging is that if there were no underage married girls in the home unit, then there was no abuse in the home. Texas CPS is trying to justify that all of the home units were in danger because of the underage/plural/incestuous marriage policies and that all of the home units should be counted as one household.

Texas is just now having the opportunity to get the names straight, they haven't had time to work on who is married to who and how they are related yet. This appeal was filed and heard immediately, so Texas really didn't have much time to prepare for the appeal with all the evidence they had.

But the number of 'minor' girls who are turning out to be adults aren't helping things.

[Fairy1]

[quote=mysteriew;2243690]Don't panic yet. Texas still has the right to file an appeal of the appeal. And like Cheko, I can't imagine them leaving themselves open to lawsuits by not filing it.

The big issue is a legal definition of 'household'. Yes, CPS can remove all the children in the household if they determine abuse is occurring- under the presumption that all of the kids are in danger of being abused. But in this case, they counted the compound one household.

What FLDS is alleging is that if there were no underage married girls in the home unit, then there was no abuse in the home. Texas CPS is trying to justify that all of the home units were in danger because of the underage/plural/incestuous marriage policies and that all of the home units should be counted as one household.

Snipped - for space only....

Thank you -I'm trying not to panic and I sincerely hope TX is on top of the situation. I know that most of the posters here are concerned right now about the children - as am I. However, many of the women of this sect were born, raised and married into it and they are victims too. As are the "lost boys" who have been banished for no valid reason. There are many victims here and I would hope that the courts look at the matter in totality - if they can.

[mysteriew]

Well, it looks like I am wrong. The issue the FLDS is complaining about is the general mass hearings that were held for the kids, instead of individual hearings where they outlined the dangers for each individual child.

And though the FLDS seems to be celebrating and counting on the kids coming home, I am reading things a bit differently.

This article outlines the possible actions that Texas can take.

At a press conference earlier in the day, Balovich had said there was a 10-day period for the district judge to vacate the order placing children in state custody. That is incorrect, Balovich said Thursday evening.
CPS could choose to comply with the order and return some or all children. It could seek a stay of the appellate ruling. And it could appeal, a move it has already indicated to TRLA attorneys that it intends to make.
If CPS and the district judge do nothing, the appeals court will order the children returned to their parents, Balovich said.
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9347022

[Ladybass0711]

I think that the CPS will wait until the 9th day to file the appeal. That way they buy themselves more time. Because once it is filed it will give them a few days to get a court date. Then extra days for the Supreme court to hear the case, and extra days to come to a decision etc. By the time all is said and done, they could end up with an extra two weeks to a month to investigate it more. Because once they file it, it automatically sets the Appeletes, motion to a stay. And it could take up to 30 days for Texas Supreme court to hear the case. It has been known the US Supreme court to take YEARS to hear a case.

[mysteriew]

I agree, I think they will wait until the last minute to file the appeal. And yes, if they go to the US Supreme Court, many many of those kids will be aged out of the system before it is heard.

Financially it will cost Texas. But right now Texas holds most of the cards. And now may be the only time they have to take this action, if they wait then the FLDS could very well begin entering the political arena which could block any chance to do it later. Just like it has in Co and Ut. And just like one of the leaders has threatened to do.

[Ladybass0711]

The first step was the third court of appeals, who ruled in favor of the FLDS the next step is the Texas supreme court but that could take weeks to months to hear as well. Then its off to the Federal Court system.

[mysteriew]

I don't think they have any choice but to do it though. If they don't then the FLDS will be filing lawsuits out the kazoo.

[anneinchicago]

Hallelujah, justice has been served.

Doesn't anyone care that one of the so called child brides is actually 27? Or that the original call has been determined to be a hoax? Or that there is no proof that these children were abused?

And, if I may also ask, even if these children are at risk of being married off before the age of consent, does that mean that they do not love their mothers or that their mothers might love them? So why are they being separated? Why are they not being removed from the ranch and then being kept together? What purpose does separating a mother and her child serve?

Why are the men not being punished?

I also know that I certainly wouldn't my children taken from me simply because of rumors and a prank phone call.

[Seven]

Texas Rio Grande Legal Aide response:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

The spokeswoman says "this is a great day for families" but she never once said the word "father." She talked about the mothers and the children and the "families."

Big Pink Elephant ~ ~ ~ F A T H E R S

Where are they?
How many individual homes are there on YFZ?


Is it not abuse to brain wash a girl that she is not the equal of a boy? Is it not a girl's civil right to learn that, in our society, girls are the equals of boys?

[believe09]

Hallelujah, justice has been served.

Doesn't anyone care that one of the so called child brides is actually 27? Or that the original call has been determined to be a hoax? Or that there is no proof that these children were abused?

And, if I may also ask, even if these children are at risk of being married off before the age of consent, does that mean that they do not love their mothers or that their mothers might love them? So why are they being separated? Why are they not being removed from the ranch and then being kept together? What purpose does separating a mother and her child serve?

Why are the men not being punished?

I also know that I certainly wouldn't my children taken from me simply because of rumors and a prank phone call.

I agree substantially with this, and I want to add that I read a statement today that just brought everything into perspective for me in terms of why there was such a push to classify some of the women as children:

Characterizing them as children allowed the state to question them without attorneys present because there was no clear representation of who was a parent...think about it-the members of the sect had been coached to change their last names, etc...and perhaps to be intentionally confusing as to whom their mothers were much less their fathers.

It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out....

[Trino]

If the children are returned to the mothers, hey, Texas, go after the fathers for child support. I cannot understand why there is no emphasis upon the fathers. The mothers are collecting welfare; the fathers enablers who aren't paying for support of their many kids.

The first of the law suits?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.mother/index.html

[mysteriew]

If the children are returned to the mothers, hey, Texas, go after the fathers for child support. I cannot understand why there is no emphasis upon the fathers. The mothers are collecting welfare; the fathers enablers who aren't paying for support of their many kids.

The first of the law suits?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.mother/index.html

Pamela Jessop does look younger than 18, so I really don't blame CPS for questioning her age. Also at the age of 18, she already had one child age 1. So that means she was most likely under the age of consent when she conceived that first child.

If they file a federal lawsuit, it will be hard going. First it will mainly be a matter of 'he said, she said'. CPS will have their witnesses as to what she said, and FLDS will have their witnesses. She says she told them her name and age and she may have. But was she one of the ones who kept changing her name and age, switching ID bracelets and etc.? I am also wondering if this is one of the ones who when the mothers were ordered to leave, and changed their age again and said they were minors so they could stay with their children?

The only problem I see is the confusion that would have been going on with CPS in the compound. In the paperwork the CPS completed about who they had in custody, and who was who, I would imagine that paperwork had to be redone several times as people kept changing their names. If one caseworker put her age down as an adult and the worker following her made her a minor again that is going to hurt- unless there are witnesses that she kept telling them different ages.

[mykodiak]

Texas CPS will appeal. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

[cheko1]

You're right Cheko - these people have not been truthful or forthcoming. These are not trademarks of people who have nothing to hide. But I'm at a loss as to how this court came to the conclusion they did today. I believe Warren Jeffs is laughing his azz off tonight. His people have discovered the perfect way to commit pedophelia - and GOD knows what else - in the name of religion. There will be no stopping freaks who want to commit these acts after this. Call it "religion" and build huge walls around your compound - then do whatever you want. On US soil. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! :banghead::banghead:

For sure Fairy1 they went over & bombed Iraq for injustices. That wasn't much worse then what is going on here in the USA in many states. They hung Saddam Hussein.........so I am really anxious to see where the court system thinks this is all ok to do here! Just don't get it.....:furious::furious::furious:

[cheko1]

[quote=Fairy1;2243693
Snipped - for space only....

Thank you -I'm trying not to panic and I sincerely hope TX is on top of the situation. I know that most of the posters here are concerned right now about the children - as am I. However, many of the women of this sect were born, raised and married into it and they are victims too. As are the "lost boys" who have been banished for no valid reason. There are many victims here and I would hope that the courts look at the matter in totality - if they can.[/quote]

I am now reading Escape by Carolyn Jessop she had stated twice in the first 64 pages that boy chilren are looked upon more highly then the girls in the FLDS. I was surprised she stated that 2 times & knowing about the LOST BOYS it made very little sense to me.

I understand it is hard for the women but now they have seen what it is like to be out of the compound & could leave with there kids & never go back. I have not a ounce of pity for ANY of them.

[Rino]

For sure Fairy1 they went over & bombed Iraq for injustices. That wasn't much worse then what is going on here in the USA in many states. They hung Saddam Hussein.........so I am really anxious to see where the court system thinks this is all ok to do here! Just don't get it.....:furious::furious::furious:
I just don't get your post. The Iraqi gov't hung SH for starters....

[cheko1]

Hallelujah, justice has been served.

Doesn't anyone care that one of the so called child brides is actually 27? Or that the original call has been determined to be a hoax? Or that there is no proof that these children were abused?

And, if I may also ask, even if these children are at risk of being married off before the age of consent, does that mean that they do not love their mothers or that their mothers might love them? So why are they being separated? Why are they not being removed from the ranch and then being kept together? What purpose does separating a mother and her child serve?

Why are the men not being punished?

I also know that I certainly wouldn't my children taken from me simply because of rumors and a prank phone call.

I honestly don't feel that justice was served. The gal who was a child bride is actually 27 should of spoken up & not lied about who she was / who her kids were / denied kids / then reclaimed them. Same way with the poor kids.........what a travesty for them to not know who there parents are!

The mothers DO NOT raise there kids. The kids are kept from there moms & most of the time DON'T know which Dad is theres. Once a girl is married off she is to cut all ties with her family.

I'm pretty certain once it is proven who the parents of the kids actually are charges will be filed ASAP for all abuse performed to the kids. I'm quite certain it will be massive. The FLDS shouldn't be crowing to loudly yet.

[Pepper]

The problem with the adults and laying blame is at what point to you stop claiming victim status and start saying they are the perpetrators?

For the most part, all of the adults have been raised in this cult and conditioned to accept the prophet as the embodied word of God. You can say that they know no different. But as they have matured they go from being the abused to being the abusers, and now it is their children that are suffering. Somewhere and somehow we must protect the children and break the cycle of abuse. It is a very complicated problem, but it can't be allowed to continue unchallenged.

[cheko1]

I just don't get your post. The Iraqi gov't hung SH for starters....


With the Bush administration standing firmly behind them. Sorry if I never made myself clear.

[cheko1]

The problem with the adults and laying blame is at what point to you stop claiming victim status and start saying they are the perpetrators?

For the most part, all of the adults have been raised in this cult and conditioned to accept the prophet as the embodied word of God. You can say that they know no different. But as they have matured they go from being the abused to being the abusers, and now it is their children that are suffering. Somewhere and somehow we must protect the children and break the cycle of abuse. It is a very complicated problem, but it can't be allowed to continue unchallenged.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Well stated Pepper!

[mysteriew]

The problem with the adults and laying blame is at what point to you stop claiming victim status and start saying they are the perpetrators?

For the most part, all of the adults have been raised in this cult and conditioned to accept the prophet as the embodied word of God. You can say that they know no different. But as they have matured they go from being the abused to being the abusers, and now it is their children that are suffering. Somewhere and somehow we must protect the children and break the cycle of abuse. It is a very complicated problem, but it can't be allowed to continue unchallenged.

I agree. A child abuser was often abused as a child. A child molester was often molested as a child. But somewhere, somehow the cycle has to be broken. At some point you have to say, they were adults and they continued the cycle so they have to take responsibility.

At first I was hoping they wouldn't file on the polygamy. Mainly because it is such a hot button issue. But now I am hoping they begin filing the criminal charges soon. And that they file on the child abuse, child sexual abuse, fraud, tax evasion, welfare fraud, incest, obstruction of justice and polygamy and any other crime they find. Because that is what it is going to take to change that culture.

I am starting to see the polygamy as more than just a religous ideal. Polygamy is against the law. And when they break one law and get by with it, due to religous ideals- then they just believe they can break another law and get by with it if they call it religous ideals. They also seem to believe that they can go on TV and cry and lie and manipulate the public. They seem to believe they can lie to authorities without being held accountable. Then try to hold those same lies against the state.

Everyone is holding CPS accountable for losing the appeal. But from the way I am reading it, the appeals court was not so much objecting to the removal, they were objecting to the mass hearings in which CPS was not given opportunity to list the individual abuses and dangers. That was the courts decision, not the CPS. I understand why they did it, because the sheer numbers were overwhelming and due to the time limitations.

What they really need to do is start setting 'family' hearings' with the alleged father of each family determining the family unit. Alleged father has 5 'wives' then then that is one family, one hearing, 5 mothers and X number of children. That will make the alleged fathers come out of the woodwork. Units without an alleged father could be held in group and the mothers charged with obstruction of justice for refusing to name their child's fathers. That could also be deemed as evidence that the mother's were endangering the children by adhering to the religous ideals.

LOL, this may be bad of me. But I am kinda hoping that as they do the DNA tests that they get a few surprise paternity results. You know the old saying "Mommy's Baby, Daddy's Maybe". Well I am hoping they do get some surprises.

[KOOL LOOK]

I haven't been keeping up and as closely following as some of you here dedicated sleuthers have been. I removed myself when I felt I had my say and not whole lot more to contribute a few weeks ago.

Truly, and some others who posted with me. Here I am again. I made my opinions clear, and this ruling is only the beginnings of straightning out this mess. The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents.

Our Governemnt crossed the line once again, and I'm big on my Government, love it and support it. I love America. Home of the Brave.

But it was an ego power pushing control jerks in the midst of this chaos who had some authority and did this autrocity to not only these people, but traumatized every parent in America who has enough vision to see what could happen in their very own homes too, just because somebody says so, or cuz somebody thinks they have more say so over your home and children than I do. I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.

I welcome my fellow sleuthers comments, either way of the side you may stand, hey to my buddies here, even the ones that we didn't see eye to eye on, but snicker, I said so. I told ya this wasn't gonna fly.

This is a serious matter, and I'm jokin with my buds, peace everyone.

[barb0301]

Texas CPS will appeal. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

:clap::clap::clap:

I hope they win.

[southcitymom]

SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- The state of Texas should not have removed more than 400 children it took from a polygamist sect's ranch, an appeals court ruled Thursday.

Earlier this year, authorities raided the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, Texas, after they received reports of child abuse.

About 460 children were taken from the ranch, which is run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a polygamist sect linked to the jailed "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs.



http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/22/flds.ruling/index.html

I can't say I'm surprised. Of course they will appeal it but there's a good chance the higher Court will agree.

ETA: I personally am delighted the Court agrees that families shouldn't be ripped apart unless danger is imminent. I know others probably feel differently.

[southcitymom]

Hallelujah, justice has been served.

Doesn't anyone care that one of the so called child brides is actually 27? Or that the original call has been determined to be a hoax? Or that there is no proof that these children were abused?

And, if I may also ask, even if these children are at risk of being married off before the age of consent, does that mean that they do not love their mothers or that their mothers might love them? So why are they being separated? Why are they not being removed from the ranch and then being kept together? What purpose does separating a mother and her child serve?

Why are the men not being punished?

I also know that I certainly wouldn't my children taken from me simply because of rumors and a prank phone call.

Excellent post!

[southcitymom]

I haven't been keeping up and as closely following as some of you here dedicated sleuthers have been. I removed myself when I felt I had my say and not whole lot more to contribute a few weeks ago.

Truly, and some others who posted with me. Here I am again. I made my opinions clear, and this ruling is only the beginnings of straightning out this mess. The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents.

Our Governemnt crossed the line once again, and I'm big on my Government, love it and support it. I love America. Home of the Brave.

But it was an ego power pushing control jerks in the midst of this chaos who had some authority and did this autrocity to not only these people, but traumatized every parent in America who has enough vision to see what could happen in their very own homes too, just because somebody says so, or cuz somebody thinks they have more say so over your home and children than I do. I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.

I welcoem my fellow sleuthers comments, either way of the side you may stand, hey to my buddies here, even the ones that we didn't see eye to eye on, but snicker, I said so. I told ya this wasn't gonna fly.

This is a serious matter, and I'm jokin with my buds, peace everyone.

Another excellent post.

[Pepper]

I know that there are some in the cult who are not practicing polygamy and are raising their own children in a family unit with one mother and one father, but they are exceptions to what is expected and dictated by their prophet.

It is a very complicated issue. However we must listen to those who have escaped the cult - like Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop and Laurie Allen - all of whom say that the majority of the children are physically and emotionally abused, many teen boys are abandoned, and young girls are being forced into marriages they don't want, and often with close blood relatives.

Many of you who feel that the children need to be reunited with their parents are viewing this personally, as if these cultist people have the same feelings for their children as you and I. Sadly that is not always the case. These people are conditioned to view child bearing as their duty to produce as many children as their fertility will allow. The women are breeding machines. They are taught to NOT establish close emotional ties with their children and to allow them to be raised and diciplined by their plural mothers and father who often doesn't know their name or which mother bore that child. These poor kids are communal property of the cult. This is totally contrary to how we are conditioned to love and care for our children.

I understand how we would all like to believe that these families mirror our own and that they just wear funny clothes. But the sad fact is that it goes much deeper than this.

[Ladybass0711]

12 kids are being returned to parents

SAN ANTONIO -- Three couples whose children were seized during a raid at a West Texas polygamist sect's compound were granted temporary custody of their children pending an appeal of a state court's ruling that Texas officials failed to prove the children were in danger.

The couples' attornies negotiated a deal with state Child Protective Service officials about 3:30 p.m. in a Bexar County court. The children will remain in the custody of their parents until a ruling is handed down by the Texas Supreme Court or until June 9, when a hearing is scheduled on a temporary restraining order previously filed in a Bexar County court.

http://www.ksat.com/news/16377887/detail.html

[tnajk]

I have a feeling them allowing 12 children go back with their parents is a test of sorts. Will those families up and dissapear now? Is DHS waiting and watching to see what they do? Hmmmm.... what do you think?

[Ladybass0711]

I beleive it is a test of some sort. However from my understanding, they have STRICT guidelines to follow, and they MUST remain in an undisclosed location in San Angelo.

[Ladybass0711]

BTW Nancy Grace is covering this now

[Ladybass0711]

Judge Barbra Walthers, is really IRATE with the appealt Judges, who said that she was in the wrong. She is going to draw out the custody hearing, to gather all evidence, so she can decide whether a child is to remain in state custody. The newborn that was just born, is now in limbo, to wait for Judge Walthers on Tuesday to make the decision on whether he/she can return home.

[Ladybass0711]

Flora is reporting that retribution will be in store for the kids, if they are returned home. The kids will be punished for speaking out, more beatings, abuse... These kids will suffer when returned. Flora Jessops, mother has been missing for years because of the work that Flora is doing. They did something with her, when Flora started to speak out against the FLDS.

[Pepper]

I notice that in the article it mentions "three couples" are receiving custody of their children. I wonder if this means that these three "couples" are not practicing polygamy? Could this be the reason they, and not others, are getting their children?

[mykodiak]

It could be that these were among the few couples that had their own "home" and did not live in the dormitories.

Under the agreement, the families cannot return to the Yearning For Zion ranch, where they lived before the raid. So, they will have to stay in a location where CPS will not have a problem gaining easy access. I wonder how long they can bar them from moving back?

[Trino]

I think these families probably WILL practice pologamy if they don't now. Maybe it's just that the daddy hasn't been assigned another wife yet.

I wonder if the outside world has influenced the children in a positive way. Just an add on, I have little sympathy for the mothers who tolerate this lifestyle for themselves and their children. In their hearts they must question their surroundings and know this isn't right.

[ThoughtFox]

I think these families probably WILL practice pologamy if they don't now. Maybe it's just that the daddy hasn't been assigned another wife yet.

I wonder if the outside world has influenced the children in a positive way. Just and add on, I have little sympathy for the mothers who tolerate this lifestyle for themselves and their children. In their hearts they must question their surroundings and know this isn't right.
I agree.

It's great that some of you like this new ruling, but nothing has addressed those ceremonial beds they found inside the church, which prompted the removal of the kids in the first place.

I believe those mothers love their children. I also see those women as dominated by religious leaders and and out of control of their own lives. The guy representing the cult last night on Larry King said he didn't understand why polygamy is wrong in the U.S. so of course they are practicing polygamy and will continue to break the law.

These folks aren't suddenly "reformed" because they got into one tussle with the law - they know exactly what laws they are breaking and why they have to stay quiet. They also believe teenage girls should all be pregnant as early as possible and that is child abuse - those girls don't have a choice. Those women had a choice and now they want to go back home and keep this lifestyle.

So be it, but they live in the U.S. and they have to follow the laws, some of which are there to protect children even from abusive or just plain crazy parents.

[mykodiak]

I have to admit that this one surprised even me! http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/24/shocking-pics-of-jeffs-shown-in-hearing/

They have the actual pic in a slideshow on the front page of gosanangelo.com. Wow! :eek:

[Moe]

http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9361767?source=rv

From the Salt Lake Tribune, disgusting.

[SewingDeb]

Kissing pics at this link:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/23/hearing-includes-photos-of-sect-leader-kissing/

[tnajk]

Jessop's attorney, Pat Matassarin, dismissed the photos.
"For one thing, the guy who did it is in jail," she said, referring to Jeffs and adding that the actions of a family member should not be used to remove his child.


Perhaps, but the fact that the mans photo is EVERYWHERE, in all of the houses, in every room, even taped inside the childrens Bibles and Book of Moman tells us that it DOESN'T MATTER that he's in jail. He is like a God to these people. Of course, they follow in his footsteps.

I'm SOOOOOOO glad the state is filing an appeal!

[mysteriew]

Go Judge Mather,go!!!

Under the previous circumstances without the evidence being given in full court, it wouldn't get publicized. And if need be I think that Mather would have kept it under seal. But they got her po'd now!

The CPS was bound by confidentialty rules, the state was being circumspect. And the Judge was trying to handle the hearings in as confidential a manner as possible. As such the FLDS had the upper hand publicity wise. Whatever they chose to say in the media, no one could really contradict. But with the Appeal court ruling, now all gloves are off! I hope they publicize every bit of the evidence!

[Trino]

Kissing pics at this link:

http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/23/hearing-includes-photos-of-sect-leader-kissing/


Gross. Her brother is just as messed up as Jeffs:

"Rulon Daniel Jessop, the girl's brother and the infant's father, said he sees nothing wrong with his children being in the same house with underage "sister wives" of much older men. "It seemed a little wild to me," Jessop testified, "but you see a lot more wild things driving down the streets of the city at night. I do not consider a girl kissing a man sexual abuse."

[SewingDeb]

Yes, he is.

[mysteriew]

The impression I had over what was said in the articles, was that perhaps/maybe the young girl might be married to Jeffs.

They made a point of saying that in the FLDS touching between males and females is discouraged unless they are married. Yet here is this pic of Warren with a young girl doing more than touching. And certainly the state has a strong interest in that pic, by them bringing it up in her brother's hearing. I think they were probing and hoping to get an admission.

[faw720]

What a gross photo!! However, I have to say that the young girl didn't look as if she was being forced. Evidently they had done an excellent job of brainwashing her.

[barb0301]

What a gross photo!! However, I have to say that the young girl didn't look as if she was being forced. Evidently they had done an excellent job of brainwashing her.

Unfortunately, that's what happens. And that's what CPS is so up in arms against. The girls in the FLDS are all raised to think that it is not only right, but a "privilege" to be married off to a man at a young age and to bear children.

[mykodiak]

An article in the San Angelo Standard Times has a new twist on the appeals court decision. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/may/26/court-ruling-puts-everyone-on-hold/

The appellate court's strongly worded opinion - which wiped out large portions of the state's case against the FLDS parents - was perhaps too strong, said Malonis, an attorney for a mother and several children in the case.
"Just looking at the ruling from the Court of Appeals, there are a lot of gaps," she said. "The Court of Appeals had some very strong language. I could see a (higher) court taking issue with it."
For example, she said, the three justices who issued the opinion - W. Kenneth Law, Bob Pemberton and Alan Waldrop - said the state presented "no evidence" of physical harm. In fact, a CPS witness testified at length during the April 17-18 hearing that children were at risk of hampered brain development under the authoritarian sect lifestyle.
Further down in the article it mentions that Judge Walther was preferring mediation prior to reconciliation of families. Now the appeals process could hold everyone in limbo for a lengthy amount of time.

[Details]

...The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents....I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.....See - as I see it - the difference is that these parents have relinquished their rights and authority in their homes, property, and particularly children. Belonging to the cult means that when Jeffs points to your child and says, "She marries him" - that's what happens. That's not what I call love and compassion, nor a capable parent - if they are even the parents of the children. Their reluctance to identify mothers and fathers speaks volumes about the real issues here. Many ex-FLDS have said that the children are shuffled around - even they don't know who their real mother is.

The appelate court was wrong, IMO, and I look forward to the appeal. The compound was all one household under the complete and utter control of a group that institutionalized child abuse (not only the underage marriages, but the child labor, reassigning wives and children, under-education, and grooming of the children). It's not about who the parents are, not even about the people who the children call mother and father - it's about who has control over those children. Since it's the same people for the entire compound, considering the compound as one household is correct.

[Pepper]

I haven't been keeping up and as closely following as some of you here dedicated sleuthers have been. I removed myself when I felt I had my say and not whole lot more to contribute a few weeks ago.

Truly, and some others who posted with me. Here I am again. I made my opinions clear, and this ruling is only the beginnings of straightning out this mess. The children as I've said should never have been separated from the love and compassion of caring willing capable parents.

Our Governemnt crossed the line once again, and I'm big on my Government, love it and support it. I love America. Home of the Brave.

But it was an ego power pushing control jerks in the midst of this chaos who had some authority and did this autrocity to not only these people, but traumatized every parent in America who has enough vision to see what could happen in their very own homes too, just because somebody says so, or cuz somebody thinks they have more say so over your home and children than I do. I do not relinquish my rights and authority in my home, property and children.

I welcome my fellow sleuthers comments, either way of the side you may stand, hey to my buddies here, even the ones that we didn't see eye to eye on, but snicker, I said so. I told ya this wasn't gonna fly.

This is a serious matter, and I'm jokin with my buds, peace everyone.

OK KL, you asked for it, so here goes! PLEASE, I beg of you, read Flora Jessop's website, read Carolyn Jessop's book, watch Laurie Allen's documentary! Please be informed!

I understand your fear and your compassion for "loving, compassionate, willing, caring parents." But I don't believe that we are dealing with those feelings with these parents. You are projecting your feelings for your children and/or your parents on these people. These people have been stripped of all their maternal/paternal love for their children by the FLDS, who discourages that kind of bonding. You must understand that many of these children cannot identify their natural parents! Many or most do not know when they were born! Of course the children want to return to the only home they know with the only parents they know. They don't know or understand that what they've been brought up with is unnatural.

I certainly have no fear that CPS or any governmental equilivant will barge into your home and steal your children away unless they have a concrete belief that the children are in danger.

[mysteriew]

I always find the Christian Science Monitor's view to be amusing.

But in this case, they do have something.



Page 1 of 2

Phoenix - Are the beliefs of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), the polygamous sect that the state of Texas has also accused of child abuse, sufficient grounds for removing all the children from the group's compound in Eldorado, Texas?

The answer now lies in the hands of the Texas Supreme Court, and how it rules will help resolve a major church-state clash that began when Texas officials last month took some 460 minors from the sect's Yearning for Zion ranch after receiving phone calls from an alleged underage spouse complaining of physical abuse. That complaint, it turns out, was almost certainly a hoax – the first in a series of bad news for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS).

It also now appears that evidence about the sect's belief system that the state collected during the raid – and presented to a district court to justify its temporary removal of the children – is probably flawed. In the DFPS's biggest setback so far, a Texas appeals court on May 22 overturned the district court's decision to keep the children in state custody temporarily.

"Existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the [DFPS] witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the ruling read. "It is the imposition of certain alleged tenets of that system on specific individuals that may put them in physical danger."

The state's Supreme Court is expected to rule this week on DFPS's petition for emergency relief from the appeals court decision, possibly as early as Tuesday. If the appeals court decision stands, most of the children will be returned to their parents at the sect's ranch.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0527/p02s02-usju.html

[Pepper]

"Existence of the FLDS belief system as described by the [DFPS] witnesses, by itself, does not put children of FLDS parents in physical danger," the ruling read. "It is the imposition of certain alleged tenets of that system on specific individuals that may put them in physical danger."

Huh? :confused:

[gitana1]

If you read Elissa Wall's book, Stolen Innocence, you will not see evidence of horrific physical abuse in the home, as in Carolyn Jessop's book Escape. EW paints a picture of a fairly loving family and a very gentle, sweet mother who was a refuge, as all mother's should be, to EW. However, EW's mom was so religious, so highly enmeshed in the FLDS mindset, that she obeyed, almost entirely without question, what her "priesthood head" (husband) said, or what the prophet or his mouthpieces said. And therein lies the problem. Because of the dictates of the males whom she was compelled to obey, EW's mom abandoned several of her sons (one who she drove to the side of the highway and let out with not much more than the clothes on his back, another who was only around 12 years of age at the time), she allowed herself to be "reassigned" to another husband, taking all of her her children away from their father, not even able to say goodbye, and she allowed her 14 year old little girl to marry the 19 year old cousin the child loathed. According to the book, EW's mom was devasted by all of these things, but she felt she had no choice but to obey the dictates of this patriarchy. She even tried to keep encouraing her 14 year old daughter to obey and learn to love the cousin, despite knowing her daughter was traumatized, being raped by the man and wanting nothing more than to just be allowed to go home to her mommy. I believe there are families in the FLDS in which physical and sexual abuse are not occurring. I believe there are FLDS families that are affectionate with their children, adore their children and allow their kids to have fun. But, when you couple stories like Elissa Walls with the testimony of people like the couple who were fighting for the return of their infant, it is clear that the FLDS children are at great risk of harm under the care of their parents. These people are capitivated by their prophet and will obey him and their priesthood heads without question. Come on! The mother testifying stated that the photo of the 12 year old girl being embraced and kissed by Warren Jeffs was inappropriate, but she also said people are free to do what they want and that the prophet is "perfect"! Her husband stated that the photo of his little sister being kissed by Jeffs was "wild" and that it went against his religion, but he also said it was not sexual abuse! So, when it happens to his little girl I guess it will not be abuse then either? These people know that in their religion, behavior like that does not occur unless the parties are married. They are well aware that this little girl is married to 52 year old Warren Jeffs. But they denied knowing. So, we know they lie and we cannot believe anything they say, including that they will protect their kids and keep them from underage marriage. That's why CPS needed to act and needs to maintain involvement for years to come. It seems so clear to me. By the way, I saw a close up of some of the photos of WJ kissing the little girl and one was framed with the caption "Warren and Loretta, First Anniversary." It was also dated 2005, not 2006. So, I'm confused why the media keeps saying 2006. Also, that would make the little girl closer to 11 years old in the photo, and 10 when they married, if the media is right in saying she was born in 1994. This is their leader! They follow this man! How can anyone not be scared by this?

[Pepper]

Welcome gitana1. You said it beautifully! I haven't read Elissa Wall's book yet. I'm hoping someone will offer it on the WS book club as a loan.

[gitana1]

Thanks Pepper. I lent it to my mom but I would be happy to loan it to you after if you would like. It made me admire EW so much for her strength. Coupled with Carolyn Jessop and Flora Jessop's stories, it made me feel that only very inherently strong personalities are able to escape this group. EW was scared batty at the thought of leaving, even after being threatened with blood atonement at one time. She knew she would never again see her mother and little sisters, all of whom she adored. She did not want to abandon them. She also was very scared of going to hell, still believing alot of what she had been taught but not being able to live the life anymore. I really admire that. I don't tolerate change and I'm ridiculously close with my mother. I don't think I could have done what she did. I can't imagine what this poor girl went through having to make such a decision. She's tough. But what about all the girls who are not as strong? You know, all of this reminds me of what girls in certain areas of the middle east, like Saudi Arabia, go through. Arranged marriages, no freedom, unquestioning obedience, being trapped, child brides, etc. It's very strange that this is happening in the US.

[mysteriew]

If you read Elissa Wall's book, Stolen Innocence, you will not see evidence of horrific physical abuse in the home, as in Carolyn Jessop's book Escape. EW paints a picture of a fairly loving family and a very gentle, sweet mother who was a refuge, as all mother's should be, to EW. However, EW's mom was so religious, so highly enmeshed in the FLDS mindset, that she obeyed, almost entirely without question, what her "priesthood head" (husband) said, or what the prophet or his mouthpieces said. And therein lies the problem. Because of the dictates of the males whom she was compelled to obey, EW's mom abandoned several of her sons (one who she drove to the side of the highway and let out with not much more than the clothes on his back, another who was only around 12 years of age at the time), she allowed herself to be "reassigned" to another husband, taking all of her her children away from their father, not even able to say goodbye, and she allowed her 14 year old little girl to marry the 19 year old cousin the child loathed. According to the book, EW's mom was devasted by all of these things, but she felt she had no choice but to obey the dictates of this patriarchy. She even tried to keep encouraing her 14 year old daughter to obey and learn to love the cousin, despite knowing her daughter was traumatized, being raped by the man and wanting nothing more than to just be allowed to go home to her mommy. I believe there are families in the FLDS in which physical and sexual abuse are not occurring. I believe there are FLDS families that are affectionate with their children, adore their children and allow their kids to have fun. But, when you couple stories like Elissa Walls with the testimony of people like the couple who were fighting for the return of their infant, it is clear that the FLDS children are at great risk of harm under the care of their parents. These people are capitivated by their prophet and will obey him and their priesthood heads without question. Come on! The mother testifying stated that the photo of the 12 year old girl being embraced and kissed by Warren Jeffs was inappropriate, but she also said people are free to do what they want and that the prophet is "perfect"! Her husband stated that the photo of his little sister being kissed by Jeffs was "wild" and that it went against his religion, but he also said it was not sexual abuse! So, when it happens to his little girl I guess it will not be abuse then either? These people know that in their religion, behavior like that does not occur unless the parties are married. They are well aware that this little girl is married to 52 year old Warren Jeffs. But they denied knowing. So, we know they lie and we cannot believe anything they say, including that they will protect their kids and keep them from underage marriage. That's why CPS needed to act and needs to maintain involvement for years to come. It seems so clear to me. By the way, I saw a close up of some of the photos of WJ kissing the little girl and one was framed with the caption "Warren and Loretta, First Anniversary." It was also dated 2005, not 2006. So, I'm confused why the media keeps saying 2006. Also, that would make the little girl closer to 11 years old in the photo, and 10 when they married, if the media is right in saying she was born in 1994. This is their leader! They follow this man! How can anyone not be scared by this?

Excellent points. I too believe that some of the parents love their kids. And I believe that in many of the homes there isn't physical or sexual abuse. But I also believe that the parents will set their prophet above their children. If the prophet orders them to use harsh punishment for their children, they will (if they can't be quiet and 'sweet'. If the prophet orders them to abandon a child, they will. If the prophet orders that their young child must be married, they will. If the prophet orders that their child become a 26th "spiritual wife" they will walk her to the temple. Because of that attitude, because that situation is so ripe for the abuse, I believe that some abuse has already occurred. But I also think they don't see it as abuse. 'It is just the way things are', the way things have always been. They see it as normal parenting.

If separated from the church (or if the church would rethink their position on childrearing and young marriage), if the parents are 'retrained' and monitored, then many of them would be very good, even excellent parents. But they will have to be willing and accepting of the separating, training and monitoring and that is where I think they will fail.

[mollymalone]

Out of reportedly 10,000 members of the sect, I find it difficult to believe that ALL of them would be practicing abuse. Rather it's probably a core group of extended families close to the "power" base of the group. Although there probably are others throughout that numer who also rule with "iron hands" and abuse to be found I'm sure.

One thing to keep in mind, the ones who are monogamous, aren't monogamous by choice, since the prophet awards wives to the men based on their merit, monetarily or otherwise. Many of those will never receive a second or third wife, and perhaps many of them are secretly happier the way they are with one wife.

[mollymalone]

Flight risk

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5803808.html
In updated filings with the Texas Supreme Court, CPS lawyers argued Tuesday that if the custody orders are rescinded and the mothers take the children out of state, "no Texas court would have any authority to enter any orders to protect these children."

The families could take refuge in Hilldale, Utah, or Colorado City, Ariz., the area where the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is based.

The state filed its original appeal on Friday, arguing that Texas law gave the lower-court judge discretion on whether to remove the children.

[mykodiak]

Ok...I guess I'm slow on this one. :rolleyes: I was wading through some comments on an article in the Salt Lake Tribune and dug out this link. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html They're displayed on separate pages and shows Warren Jeffs deeply kissing two different young girls!! :furious::sick: If that's their idea of religious freedom...I want NO part in it!! :furious:

[mysteriew]

Ok...I guess I'm slow on this one. :rolleyes: I was wading through some comments on an article in the Salt Lake Tribune and dug out this link. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html They're displayed on separate pages and shows Warren Jeffs deeply kissing two different young girls!! :furious::sick: If that's their idea of religious freedom...I want NO part in it!! :furious:

The FLDS is big on PR. Well, you can't beat those photos for PR! Both of them look very young. Merrianne looks esp. young.

So where were these girls alleged 'loving' mothers when these girls left their home? Why weren't they fighting and crying to get their little girls back then? How many of those same alleged 'loving' mothers are now crying that the state wrongly took their 'little' girls away from their 'loving' arms? If those 'little' girls get sent back to their 'loving' mothers how long will it be before they are being raped again? Rape committed with their alleged mother's permission.

[Peculiar Petunia]

Ok...I guess I'm slow on this one. :rolleyes: I was wading through some comments on an article in the Salt Lake Tribune and dug out this link. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html They're displayed on separate pages and shows Warren Jeffs deeply kissing two different young girls!! :furious::sick: If that's their idea of religious freedom...I want NO part in it!! :furious:

Blecch! That's way creepier than I thought it would be.

[mysteriew]

You know the 'Lost Boys' are a part of this too. Yet I am not seeing any of the media doing one on one interviews with them. As a matter of fact, they are usually only mentioned in passing in an article. I would really like to see some of them interviewed in depth.

I wonder why they are not interviewing them? Is it because they haven't found any in Texas? Is it that the private agency that shelters them are preventing the media from interviewing them?