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BrittMontero
04-07-2004, 09:40 PM
Hi Everyone,

Yesterday I believe I saw a promo ad for an upcoming TV news program about kiddie pageants/showbiz moms, etc. -- now I can't remember what network, night and time it will be on. Can anyone enlighten me? It was probably one of the cable networks. thanks!!!

Cypros
04-07-2004, 10:20 PM
Hi Regina,

It was on last night (Tues). I didn't see it but I remember seeing the promos and wanting to watch it -- but then I forgot about it. I'm sure there will be a repeat. Sorry can't remember what network.

drew
04-08-2004, 08:52 AM
http://www.bravotv.com/Showbiz_Moms_&_Dads/

ReginaV, maybe this is what you are thinking of. It's on Bravo and starts April 13.

Brefie
04-08-2004, 02:34 PM
Sounds very interesting. I hope it will lend some insight in to this case, for me, anyhow.

MysteryMomma
04-08-2004, 03:35 PM
A&E did a story about pageant moms....it was sad to see how many of the parents both moms and dad want fame via their children. I would never spend the thousands of dollars it takes to be a contender in a show. Many of these families can't afford it and take on several jobs or loads of debt.....CRAZY

LP Moderator
04-08-2004, 03:43 PM
Mystery, I saw that one too! They were trying to talk me into letting my daughter either do that or child modeling. I chose not to. I don't mind so much the "cute baby" contests, but when they start putting makeup or tons of hairspray on little girls, it creeps me out.

why_nutt
04-08-2004, 03:47 PM
A&E did a story about pageant moms....it was sad to see how many of the parents both moms and dad want fame via their children. I would never spend the thousands of dollars it takes to be a contender in a show. Many of these families can't afford it and take on several jobs or loads of debt.....CRAZY

People bring that up, how much it costs to be in the pageants, then justify Patsy's desire to put JonBenet in them as something which was just fine because the family had the money to compete with. But that brings up a dichotomy Ramsey defenders do not want to deal with. There was no need to put JonBenet in pageants so she could win big prizes, so the money spent on her was not an investment the family would hope would pay off in profit of cars and money. The other justification offered is that pageant participation helps children gain confidence in themselves in get over being shy, but JonBenet was completely confident in herself and had no problem with shyness. So what real reason was there for JonBenet to be in the pageants, competing against children who arguably needed to win more than she did, except to inflate Patsy's ego even more than it already was?

tipper
04-08-2004, 04:29 PM
From what I've read the 'real" reason JonBenet wanted to be in the pageants was because she enjoyed being in them.

Toth
04-08-2004, 05:17 PM
From what I've read the 'real" reason JonBenet wanted to be in the pageants was because she enjoyed being in them. Precisely, she even did them at home, insisting that John Ramsey say "Presenting JonBenet" as if it were a real pageant.
As with many of the former contestants who attended the reunion dinner, Patsy brought her children and JonBenet loved the pageant and wanted to do it. So they indulged her, just as they bought a gerbil cage, mathematics book, etc. and did all the other stuff parents do in similar situations.

Toltec
04-08-2004, 05:28 PM
Precisely, she even did them at home, insisting that John Ramsey say "Presenting JonBenet" as if it were a real pageant.
As with many of the former contestants who attended the reunion dinner, Patsy brought her children and JonBenet loved the pageant and wanted to do it. So they indulged her, just as they bought a gerbil cage, mathematics book, etc. and did all the other stuff parents do in similar situations.

Excuse me Toth but I do recall what John said in DOI regarding the pageants. He told a tale about a newspaper article JonBenet was "reading" about pageants and then deciding she wanted to participate.

why_nutt
04-08-2004, 05:49 PM
From what I've read the 'real" reason JonBenet wanted to be in the pageants was because she enjoyed being in them.

Actually, if you read everything said about JonBenet, you will know that she never wanted to be in competitive pageants. She liked to dress up, but she did that at home for free until Patsy made her start to compete for her approval. There is not a person on earth who has said that JonBenet ever, in her short life, said she wanted to win anything by dressing up. Winning was Patsy's priority, not JonBenet's. Even John Ramsey disapproved of the pageants except for the talent performance portion, which required demonstrable skills.

JonBenet also wanted to be a pediatrician, but Patsy did not take JonBenet to a children's hospital and let her help make sick children feel better. I suspect that was because there was nothing in it for Patsy; nobody gives out awards and pretty crowns to a child who makes other children laugh and forget their troubles. JonBenet loved to make other children feel good (for an example, see the cupcake-at-school story); Patsy only helped people other than herself when she was amply rewarded for it. So when you observe that JonBenet wanted to do the pageants, be honest in saying also that JonBenet only participated when Patsy decided she could win.

why_nutt
04-08-2004, 06:01 PM
Precisely, she even did them at home, insisting that John Ramsey say "Presenting JonBenet" as if it were a real pageant.
As with many of the former contestants who attended the reunion dinner, Patsy brought her children and JonBenet loved the pageant and wanted to do it. So they indulged her, just as they bought a gerbil cage, mathematics book, etc. and did all the other stuff parents do in similar situations.

It is a good thing you no longer present yourself as an upholder of truth, because it has escaped you. John Ramsey never played the "Presenting JonBenet" game; it was Patsy who did. John has gone on record of disapproving of the pageants in every way except for the talent portion, which requires demonstrable skill. And so what if JonBenet saw Patsy walking the runway at the pageant reunion? I have news for you; there was no competition at that reunion. Patsy did not have to try to convince a panel of judges that she was the Prettiest Former Contestant, only to lose to Miss West Virginia 1991. Patsy did not have to have her mother Nedra pay fifty dollars to submit a picture of Patsy so that Patsy might win Most Photogenic. All JonBenet saw at the reunion was Patsy dressing up and being applauded. That is what JonBenet wanted. That is all she wanted. Everything else, the crowns and the trophies, JonBenet did not want. They were imposed on her.

Shawna
04-08-2004, 06:48 PM
I wonder if Patsy Ramsey watches that new reality series called The Swan.The show does plastic sugery on ugly ducklings so they can compete in a beauty pageant. :sick:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/Today/2004/04/07/411300.html

BrotherMoon
04-09-2004, 03:27 AM
Patsy did to JonBenet what Nedra did to Patsy and Pam.

Nedra was an intrusive narcissist.

Patsy has a srewed up sense of self and did what MOM did.

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 08:58 AM
Again, I say that the pageant interest is very cultural. There are signs everywhere I go announcing upcoming pageants of every type, for all age groups. I have never been in the pageant circuit, but have friends who have been and who are--they, and now their daughters. I can't claim to know anything about Patsy's true personality but I do know that her interest in pageantry can be normal to her southern culture. I really don't see it any differently than my husband/I spending thousands of dollars over the years for our sons to have private batting lessons, attend baseball camps, basketball camps, football clinics, etc... We allowed those things because our sons had those interests, and because they and we wanted them to be the best. Did it make them the best? Not always. They aren't professional athletes nor did they ever win any money to repay us for all we spent. It was a family-thing~~something to be involved in as a family, something to rally around, something to help build their self esteem, something to spend all the extra money we had that we needed to get rid of (NOT) LOL.

Perhaps Patsy is a narcissist; I don't know her. I do know other people personally who could be catergorized as such. I'm sure that if I were put under a microscope I would have many personality flaws and characteristics that would come to light. JBR is portrayed by her parents as being a certain way. That may not even be accurate. In reality, she may have been a selfish bratty little girl who loved the limelight and wanted all the attention for herself. People have a way of idolizing loved ones in death.

I think it comes down to the fact that Patsy's hobby was pageantry. This flowed over onto JBR, who also liked pageantry, for whatever reasons. They spent lots of time and money on it for whatever reasons. Unless we know them personally, then I don't think we can truly know for what reasons.

IMO

tipper
04-09-2004, 10:10 AM
Excellent!

Toth
04-09-2004, 11:10 AM
John Ramsey never played the "Presenting JonBenet" game; it was Patsy who did. John has gone on record of disapproving of the pageants in every way except for the talent portion, which requires demonstrable skill. .... That is all she wanted. Everything else, the crowns and the trophies, JonBenet did not want. They were imposed on her.
I knew I could get you to admit Patsy said that at home at JonBenet's insistence and that therefore the pageants were not imposed upon her but were things she liked to do.
Crowns and trophies were not imposed on her at all, by the way. Judges select winners, JonBenet merely desired to be an entrant.
note: Do you think Cowboy's Sweetheart would go over well at a pediatric ward?

Jayelles
04-09-2004, 11:11 AM
Pageants are culturally alien to me and I have always refrained from commenting on them. I don't feel it's my place any more than I would welcome comments from others about me allowing my son to risk having his face mutilated in a game of shinty (a Scottish sport which is kind of like hockey without the rules).

I think that one of the factors is that these are changed times we live in. 20 years ago, the old man who lived next door to us was such a hit with the kids in the neighbourhood that they used to call at his house to see "Is Davie coming out to play?". He never sought the kids out, it was always they who came looking for him. He was a prize-winning gardener you see so he was always pottering about in his garden and the kids would gather round to watch him. He was just a lovely old man and indeed a good friend of ours. He adored children and was a wonderful grandfather and honorary grandfather to our children. He died about 10 years ago but even since then, he would be treading on thin ice to even talk to the neighbourhood children. Someone would be bound to see a sordid motive.

why_nutt
04-09-2004, 12:29 PM
I knew I could get you to admit Patsy said that at home at JonBenet's insistence and that therefore the pageants were not imposed upon her but were things she liked to do.
Crowns and trophies were not imposed on her at all, by the way. Judges select winners, JonBenet merely desired to be an entrant.
note: Do you think Cowboy's Sweetheart would go over well at a pediatric ward?

Playing with ordinary dresses at home in a non-competitive environment for fun and for free does not equal wanting to compete for financial profit against unfamiliar other little girls and their manipulative parents by being ripped away from a familiar neighborhood to travel across the country solely for the purpose of wearing dresses which, sadly, were too valuable to be allowed to play with at home.

I see nobody, yourself included, saying that Burke's whittling at home was Patsy's cue to put him into woodcarving competitions, even though there are such things. Burke loved playing videogames, yet Patsy did not try to get him into various videogame contests which existed. Would you like to know what the difference is between how Patsy treated JonBenet's desires and how she treated Burke's? The difference is that Patsy had no interest in woodcarving and videogames. Her ego was not boosted by being associated with Burke's interests and loves. Therefore her son could go climb a tree for all she cared about encouraging him to do what he loved.

Note: I think JonBenet performing Cowboy's Sweetheart in a pediatric ward would have been a fine thing, much better than performing it only for purposes of being judged by adult men and women, with the opinions of her fellow children counting for absolutely nothing. In the ward, she could have taught the other children the song and had them sing and dance along as best as they were able. Even better, given her generous nature, JonBenet would probably have let all the children dress themselves up in her hat and boots if they wanted to. Because that is the best kind of play: the kind that is shared. Tell me what the competitive pageants taught JonBenet about sharing, Toth.

Britt
04-09-2004, 12:52 PM
Patsy did to JonBenet what Nedra did to Patsy and Pam.

Nedra was an intrusive narcissist.

Patsy has a srewed up sense of self and did what MOM did.
Exactly, BrotherMoon.

Cherokee
04-09-2004, 01:08 PM
... I really don't see it any differently than my husband/I spending thousands of dollars over the years for our sons to have private batting lessons, attend baseball camps, basketball camps, football clinics, etc... We allowed those things because our sons had those interests, and because they and we wanted them to be the best. Did it make them the best? Not always. They aren't professional athletes nor did they ever win any money to repay us for all we spent. It was a family-thing~~something to be involved in as a family, something to rally around, something to help build their self esteem, something to spend all the extra money we had that we needed to get rid of (NOT) LOL.

Nehemiah, my friend, I understand what you are saying, but there IS a difference between pageantry as a hobby and sports as a hobby (or anything else). Pageantry is based on HOW YOU LOOK, not on on well you play or any real innate ability.

Yeah sure, there's a "talent" portion thrown in to try to make the pageants more palatable ... but everyone knows it's a minor part that doesn't really mean anything. Have you ever seen a homely contestant with superb talent win a pageant?

Pageants reward the current notion of exterior beauty. Women, girls, toddlers, even babies are awarded status as a result of inherited (and then enhanced) physical features. What could be more wrong than that? It is rewarding a person for something purely superficial.

"Beauty" pageants are toxic. They are based on a principle that does damage to the human psyche ... that how you look is a basis for self-worth. It is the same poison we are fed by Hollywood. All the emphasis is on the outer person, not the inner self.

Pageants do not build true self-esteem; rather, they tear it down and substitute a false security (and emphasis) in outward appearance. They are not a harmless, little hobby nor even a true competition of skill as in sports. Many things may be culturally acceptable, but that does not make them right, or even worthwhile.

We are more than the outward appearance of our physical bodies. We are more than this clay shell. We need to emphasize the sacred worth of every individual, not pander to the false illusion of exterior beauty.



IMO

BrotherMoon
04-09-2004, 01:13 PM
The extravagant costumes were not designed or chosen by a six year old.

The poses and gestures were not characteristic of a child.

The expressions in the still photos, such as the one that used to be on the home page of this forum, are suggestive of sexual knowing far beyond the capability of a child.

All of these things were "imposed" onto JonBenet by her mother.

Britt
04-09-2004, 01:44 PM
Cherokee and BrotherMoon:


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

And furthermore... I try to understand the "cultural" justifications for child pageantry, I really do... but IMO when a child is as obviously inappropriately sexualized as JonBenet was, the justifications don't seem much different from any other rationalization for perversion, IMO.

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 02:13 PM
Nehemiah, my friend, I understand what you are saying, but there IS a difference between pageantry as a hobby and sports as a hobby (or anything else). Pageantry is based on HOW YOU LOOK, not on on well you play or any real innate ability.

Yeah sure, there's a "talent" portion thrown in to try to make the pageants more palatable ... but everyone knows it's a minor part that doesn't really mean anything. Have you ever seen a homely contestant with superb talent win a pageant?

Pageants reward the current notion of exterior beauty. Women, girls, toddlers, even babies are awarded status as a result of inherited (and then enhanced) physical features. What could be more wrong than that? It is rewarding a person for something purely superficial.

"Beauty" pageants are toxic. They are based on a principle that does damage to the human psyche ... that how you look is a basis for self-worth. It is the same poison we are fed by Hollywood. All the emphasis is on the outer person, not the inner self.

Pageants do not build true self-esteem; rather, they tear it down and substitute a false security (and emphasis) in outward appearance. They are not a harmless, little hobby nor even a true competition of skill as in sports. Many things may be culturally acceptable, but that does not make them right, or even worthwhile.

We are more than the outward appearance of our physical bodies. We are more than this clay shell. We need to emphasize the sacred worth of every individual, not pander to the false illusion of exterior beauty.



IMO


Cherokee,
Thanks for responding. I totally agree with you. I honestly do. I am just saying that in the South, right or wrong, pageantry is looked at as more normalized behavior. It is viewed as a hobby. There are surely parents who take it to the extreme. There are those who say that kids entering into competitive sports is wrong and they do not allow scorekeeping. These same people also say that it is wrong to put so much emphasis on athleticism as opposed to brains. I know that there can be cases made for most anything that we do, or that we allow our kids to do. I don't know what Patsy's true motivation was for pageantry. I can have an opinion about it myself, but I still do not know her heart, just as she doesn't know mine, or what my motivation was/is for spending big bucks on athletics.

Cultural differences are very pronounced, whether I like that or not. I posted last fall about my trip to Boulder. In all honesty, I looked like a hooker there. My clothes were totally NOT what was the norm there. People actually stared at me, and I just wore clothes that I wear to work everyday here. A few weeks later I had a reporter come to my town from NYC to interview me for an article. She was dressed totally "inappropriately" for our area. I even had some people comment to me about how she was attired. I say "inappropriately" because her clothes were what was noticed about her~~not her heart, or her communication skills, or her writing abilities, etc...I know this is a little off topic about pageantry, but culturally speaking, the South is different from other areas of the country. (Perhaps the North is very different from the West, East, etc...I don't know)

As far as emphasizing the worth of every individual, and not beauty....I hear you. I am with you! And I will even admit....I have been a pageant judge, several times in my lifetime. :innocent:

IMO

Jayelles
04-09-2004, 02:30 PM
Cherokee,

Cultural differences are very pronounced, whether I like that or not. I posted last fall about my trip to Boulder. In all honesty, I looked like a hooker there.


In Scotland a hooker is a rugby player. I had imagined you quite differently ;-)

Britt
04-09-2004, 02:51 PM
All of these things were "imposed" onto JonBenet by her mother.
IMO this quote from PMPT - a conversation about the pageants between Judith Phillips and Patsy's mother Nedra - is very revealing:

"And what if JonBenet isn't willing?" I asked. "What if she says, 'I'm not going to do it!' How would you respond to that"?

"Oh, Judith, we would never consider her saying no. We would tell JonBenet, 'You must do it. You will be a Miss Pageant.'"

PMPT, p.249, paperback.

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 02:56 PM
In Scotland a hooker is a rugby player. I had imagined you quite differently ;-)

You imagined me as not being a rugby player, or as not being a prostitute? LOL

Toth
04-09-2004, 02:58 PM
I do not know of ANY parent who encourages their kids to play video games, much less enters them into contests, no matter what the prizes might be.

Ivy
04-09-2004, 03:00 PM
Well, they should, Toth. I heard on CNN the other day that kids who are adept at playing video games have good eye/hand coordination and make excellent surgeons.

imo

Nehemiah
04-09-2004, 03:02 PM
I do not know of ANY parent who encourages their kids to play video games, much less enters them into contests, no matter what the prizes might be.

Uhhh...well, I do, Toth. It seems I'm giving the South a bad name. :o

IMO

cookie
04-10-2004, 09:38 AM
Pageants aren't just a "southern thing". These contests are held all over the United States. JonBenet was supposed to attend one in Hawaii right after Christmas. The biggest contests are NOT held in the south. Each and every state holds several in order to come up with their own state candidate in the Miss USA contests. They begin in the local level, go to area levels, and so on. To say that they are a southern thing just isn't correct. Unless, of course, the northern states only hold one contest to find their one contest to send to the national final. There are also many different pageants such as Miss Teen USA and so on. They occur on different levels of age all the way up.

Shylock
04-10-2004, 09:58 AM
These contests are held all over the United States. JonBenet was supposed to attend one in Hawaii right after Christmas.

Hawaii... I guess this "pageant thing" was not just "something to do on weekends" as Patsy claimed.

I don't think this pageant obsession relates at all to normal child activities like Little League baseball. Parents get their kids into baseball or soccer for very little money, where a single pageant gown can cost big bucks. I'd like to see how many kids would be playing Little League baseball if it cost their parents thousands of dollars for the equipment to play in.

cookie
04-10-2004, 10:09 AM
"I'd like to see how many kids would be playing Little League baseball if it cost their parents thousands of dollars for the equipment to play in."

Oh, there would certainly be some no matter what the costs. There are many goofy parents out there that just can't accept the fact that their little Johnny or Joanie might actually be in something and not be a standout when it comes to their ability. My grandson falls into that classification. He is getting private batting lessons for little league for Pete's sake and he is only seven years old. Little League baseball and other young sports like that should be strictly for their entertainment and not to further the parents ego. I have a HUGE problem with parents who want and expect their children to be the best of everything in everything they do. Simply teach them to try to DO their best and be happy with themselves, the rest is parent gratification.

tipper
04-10-2004, 10:49 AM
Hawaii... I guess this "pageant thing" was not just "something to do on weekends" as Patsy claimed.

I don't think this pageant obsession relates at all to normal child activities like Little League baseball. Parents get their kids into baseball or soccer for very little money, where a single pageant gown can cost big bucks. I'd like to see how many kids would be playing Little League baseball if it cost their parents thousands of dollars for the equipment to play in.
My recollection is that in three years JonBenet was in 12-15 pageants.

While it's true parents can get their kids into soccer or baseball for little money, if your kid is interested in show-jumping or gymnastics or dance or ice-skating then the cost of soccer or baseball doesn't matter.

There is a spin in ice-skating called "the $50,000 spin" because that is about how much you (or your parents) will have spent to get you to that level.

Whatever the Ramseys spent on the pageants they could afford it. Nobody was working a second job or taking out loans so she could compete. JonBenet and her mother enjoyed doing them as obviously, a lot of other little girls did too.

Shylock
04-10-2004, 11:16 AM
JonBenet and her mother enjoyed doing them as obviously, a lot of other little girls did too.
We don't know what JonBenet enjoyed, do we? For all we know JonBenet had told Patsy that she didn't want to do pageants any more which is what lead to Patsy's rage that night. She refused to wear the same shirt that day so she looked like Patsy, maybe she was tired of pageants as well.

Patsy even admits to an unhealthy obsession with pageants in her deposition:

Q. I just have one other question. Did you at any time tell anyone that JonBenet was going to be the next Ms. America, or that she was being groomed to be the next Ms. America?

A. Well, she could hardly be the next Ms. America since she was only six years old.

Q. I understand. But at the time you were taking her to the beauty pageants, did you at any time say to anybody that you were grooming JonBenet to be the next Ms. America?

A. I don't know. I may have said something like that.

Grooming a 6-year old to be Ms. America? - That pretty much tells us what a sicko Patsy really is.

tipper
04-10-2004, 11:35 AM
We don't know what JonBenet enjoyed, do we? For all we know JonBenet had told Patsy that she didn't want to do pageants any more which is what lead to Patsy's rage that night. She refused to wear the same shirt that day so she looked like Patsy, maybe she was tired of pageants as well.

Patsy even admits to an unhealthy obsession with pageants in her deposition:

Q. I just have one other question. Did you at any time tell anyone that JonBenet was going to be the next Ms. America, or that she was being groomed to be the next Ms. America?

A. Well, she could hardly be the next Ms. America since she was only six years old.

Q. I understand. But at the time you were taking her to the beauty pageants, did you at any time say to anybody that you were grooming JonBenet to be the next Ms. America?

A. I don't know. I may have said something like that.

Grooming a 6-year old to be Ms. America? - That pretty much tells us what a sicko Patsy really is.
Actually it doesn't tell me anything without a context and voice. Did she say it with a fervid tone and a fire in her eye or was she laughing about it? Am I a "sicko" because I once said to my daughter I expected her to split her Nobel Prize earnings as payment for being an overnight chaperone at the Biology Club sleepover? Based on other things she has said I think Patsy has a somewhat wry sense of humor. Unfortunately every word she has spoken gets treated as though she was utterly serious when she said it.

Shylock
04-10-2004, 11:51 AM
Unfortunately every word she has spoken gets treated as though she was utterly serious when she said it.
Seeing it was in a deposition where she was essentially on trial in a civil court for her daughter's murder, I would think the woman might have maintained a "serious" attitude.


Am I a "sicko" because I once said to my daughter I expected her to split her Nobel Prize earnings as payment for being an overnight chaperone at the Biology Club sleepover?
Hardly Tipper. But maybe you should be considered a "sicko" if you don't see the difference between Patsy's actions and your daughter's Biology Club sleepover...

tipper
04-10-2004, 12:04 PM
Seeing it was in a deposition where she was essentially on trial in a civil court for her daughter's murder, I would think the woman might have maintained a "serious" attitude.

...

No, you missed the point. The "grooming" statement wasn't made during the deposition. It was a prior comment to some unnamed person.

Trino
04-10-2004, 12:59 PM
I wonder how Burke has been "groomed" since JB's death. Is he into sports? Chess?

BrotherMoon
04-10-2004, 01:15 PM
I wonder how Burke has been "groomed" since JB's death. Is he into sports? Chess?

BINGO! Groomed for Church I'll bet.

BrotherMoon
04-10-2004, 01:27 PM
Whatever the Ramseys spent on the pageants they could afford it.

And therein lies the problem. What happens when you give a wino on the street money? Give him enough and he''ll drink himself to death.

The Ramsey's money eased the constraints on a personality that had difficulty mediating it's impulses. Twelve Christmas trees???? Remodeling a house to the tune of 50% of the purchase price???? It's like giving Erric Harris the keys to the gun store.

Texana
04-11-2004, 09:24 PM
The odd thing to me is that Patsy downplays the amount of money/time spent on the pageants.

Most people I know--especially the more "noveau riche" type--and even to some extent the old money types--will not hesitate to openly admit the costs of the more expensive activities or sports. It is more or less a source of pride to be able to say "I can afford this for my kid," even if it's done in a sort of "Oh my God, I can't BELIEVE how much I spent last week on this ....but you know it's all for little Johnny or Janie!"

Did Patsy feel guilty about the involvement required for the pageants, and she wasn't willing to openly admit the emotional and financial investment in them? Pageants are far more than a "weekend" thing. Nobody with children NEEDS something to do "on the weekends." Pageants in particular are very time-consuming--not like a two hour soccer or baseball game--they require hours of prep before hand with the costume plans and purchases, the talent rehearsals, etc--dancing and singing lessons and rehearsals--

It isn't the pageants, it's Patsy's attitude of downplaying them that has me puzzled. She seems defensive about them in most every comment she made. Why? Was it because pageants seem to be more the hobby (lack of better word) of more lower-income people--or was she aware that it was more her choice of activity rather than JB's? (I actually have a former relative who did the pageants thing with her child...Despite the money involved it seems more of a lower class/income "ticket to riches" activity--the upper classes going for horses, ballet, tennis, golf...all sports involving private facilities and teachers for practise as well as $$$)

Again, it's not the activity, it's the whole attitude that has me suspicious of something else going on here.

Charlie
04-14-2004, 07:18 AM
An interesting and somewhat humorous look at Kiddie Pageants is on the Show Ruby Wax's American Pie. There is even a reference to JonBenet.

Nehemiah
04-14-2004, 10:48 AM
Cherokee, just had to tell you that our town has a "Miss Cherokee" pageant. I know you are honored. :p LOL

Sleuthie_lu
04-14-2004, 11:09 AM
The following is my opinion and meant solely for discussion purposes.

I have some very strong opinions about the industry of pageants for children and the show on Bravo.

First the show on Bravo - I watched last night. They showcased 5 families and out of the 5, I'd say ONLY one kid and mother had it on the ball and were doing it for the right reasons.

The mother of the boy in Florida is convinced her kid will be a teen idol. The child has no talent. Quit pushing him or find pros to tell you that. You are NOT Paula Abdul in a garage.

The mother of two daughters in CA has put her life on hold to focus on the career of one child. She has forgotten about school, grades and her husband and IMO stands to lose everything. Plus her daughter is beginning to be an all American PITA teen. Deal with what you need to deal with and find some balance in your lives.

The single black mom in CA has the right attitude for her child. It appears acting is what Jordan wants to do and she has a talent, but her mom is in the right place providing support and love with a balanced lifestyle and will step back and let the pros (directors, etc) do the acting work, while she remains mom. I bet if her daughter decided to not act and to play sports she'd be just as supportive and Jordan will be a success.

The father in NY who uprooted his family from a home in Vermont to a two bedroom apartment in NY to pursue HIS dream for them all, is just plain NUTS. Somewhere this guy with seven kids has not come out of the closet and the entire family is headed for therapy if one of his kids don't murder him first. He has a bad holier than thou attitude and is headed for disaster.

And the mother in FL who, with the grandmother, is pushing her four year old in pageants to obtain that great collection of crowns and trophies is just wrong. I agree it is one thing to try a pretty baby contest, but I personally am against children's pageant where glitz and glamour is the highlight and those fluffly little dresses cost over $400. IMHO the bottom line with those are the organizers are in it for the money. Pageants, when run like this, working off the insecurities of mothers and babies are run by people who's sole purpose is to make money. There is no higher purpose in it.

I also have some strong opinions about why JonBenet was in pageants. From Patsy's perspective there was a need or an emptyness to fill and I think it was a generational one. Both she and Pam were pushed by Nedra to fill a void and prove themselves. Kinda tough, when no matter what you do, it's not good enough. I have seen the claim that Nedra was so proud that she was the mother of the first sister team at Miss America. A claim that is totally false. There were sister teams at Miss America long before Patsy and Pam. Something was wrong in the Paugh household for many years and it drifted down to JonBenet. There was no need to submit this child to this type of routine. If she wanted to be "presented" she need only sing or dance in school or church. Not compete in expensive clothing as a prized posession. I have always maintained the most telling piece of evidence as to what Patsy thought of her children was on a Christmas video where she (sitting with Burke and JB in matching sweaters) says, "Hi, I'm Patsy Ramsey, this is burke and THIS IS JONBENET!" Poor burke (with a lower case) must not have mattered much to his mom.

Sleuthie

(Official Disclaimer - as in all items, this is my opinion, based on fact, experience and sometimes conjecture!)

Britt
04-14-2004, 01:18 PM
From Patsy's perspective there was a need or an emptyness to fill and I think it was a generational one. Both she and Pam were pushed by Nedra to fill a void and prove themselves. Kinda tough, when no matter what you do, it's not good enough...

Something was wrong in the Paugh household for many years and it drifted down to JonBenet.
I completely agree, Sleuthie_lu.

Thanks for posting your report of the show. :) Interesting. I wonder if the show will be on again ?

Toth
04-14-2004, 03:53 PM
Well, they should, Toth. I heard on CNN the other day that kids who are adept at playing video games have good eye/hand coordination and make excellent surgeons.Or sharpshooters, or folely artists, etc.
But surgeon-hopefuls would do better to study chemistry and biology and anatomy rather than video games.

sadiesue
04-14-2004, 08:54 PM
Sleuthie said "Somewhere this guy with seven kids has not come out of the closet and the entire family is headed for therapy if one of his kids don't murder him first."

That is exactly how I felt about this guy! Plus he kinda gave me the creeps!

I also totally agree about the cute little black girl. I fell asleep before it was over, but that little 4 year old broke my heart, with her fake tan, big hair and crazy mom pouring pixie sticks down her throat.

And you are correct again, the Aaron Carter lookalike has no singing talent whatsoever!

MysteryMomma
04-14-2004, 09:50 PM
"Meet the Nutters" sounds like a big hit to me :D NOT!

I agree with the two recaps above. I too fell asleep before the show ended.

Texana
04-15-2004, 12:14 AM
I didn't watch the show, I have a former sister-in-law who did the pageant thing, I saw enough of it with her.

Fortunately, (for the child) she had NO talent whatsoever that could be exploited, so her mama put her in cheerleading instead.

My parents once when looking at homes for sale, saw one with a "pageant" daughter. The family had mirrored the walls of the study and filled them with glass shelves, upon which were dozens of trophies, many of them as tall as a child.

It was obvious that the pageants were equally, if not more so, important to the parents, than the child. I've never seen a parent who displayed their son's baseball trophies in a special room, for example. (At least until they entered the majors!)

BlueCrab
04-15-2004, 09:19 AM
I've never seen a parent who displayed their son's baseball trophies in a special room, for example. (At least until they entered the majors!)


Texana, that's an interesting comment. It reminded me of this comment:

"Mom, am I fat? What's wrong with me? Everybody's oohing and aahing over her. You know, because of course, she's so perfect."

Burke Ramsey

JMO

Brefie
04-15-2004, 05:38 PM
As far as I am concerned, child beauty pageants should be illegal. I don't care how much fun they are or could be. Children need to look like children, not small sex kittens. Quite apart from the fact they it teaches children at a very young age that being good looking is all that counts.

FWIW, I think that if Patsy had JB's hair bleached she should be charged with child abuse.

Toltec
04-15-2004, 05:53 PM
JonBenet wanted to be an olympic ice skater yet I have not read anywhere where Jonbenet received any ice-skating lessons.

What did Patsy Ramsey do for Patsy Ramsey?

Cherokee
04-15-2004, 06:29 PM
As far as I am concerned, child beauty pageants should be illegal. I don't care how much fun they are or could be. Children need to look like children, not small sex kittens. Quite apart from the fact they it teaches children at a very young age that being good looking is all that counts.

I agree wholeheartedly.



FWIW, I think that if Patsy had JB's hair bleached she should be charged with child abuse.

Then charge her, because Pam Paugh (Patsy's sister) admitted that JonBenet's hair had been bleached blonde.

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09161997vanityfair.htm

>"Paugh concedes that JonBenet's hair was lightened, which Patsy always denied."<



IMO

tipper
04-15-2004, 07:36 PM
JonBenet wanted to be an olympic ice skater yet I have not read anywhere where Jonbenet received any ice-skating lessons.

What did Patsy Ramsey do for Patsy Ramsey?
Did she ask for ice-skating lessons?

Brefie
04-24-2004, 03:31 PM
>"Paugh concedes that JonBenet's hair was lightened, which Patsy always denied."<

She then goes on to brag that she designed the clothes? Is she hoping for a job offer?

"That child wore so little make up...." Honey, that child was 6. The only make up she should have been wearing was when playing dress up, and the make up should have been all over her face as though a 6 yr old applied it - not "a Chanel make up artist."

She should also be charged with child abuse. Sounds like all the Paugh women should be.

It's absolutely sickening.

vicktor
04-25-2004, 11:54 AM
Then charge her, because Pam Paugh (Patsy's sister) admitted that JonBenet's hair had been bleached blonde.





IMO

Maybe it not too late. If the statute of limitations hasn't run out, bring 3rd degree mental child abuse charges.

mindys
04-25-2004, 02:48 PM
JonBenet wanted to be an olympic ice skater yet I have not read anywhere where Jonbenet received any ice-skating lessons.

That would have required Patsy to submit control over her daughter to a coach, which includes her "style", make-up and dress. I don't think Patsy would have ever been willing to be second fiddle to another adult in total control over her daughter's life.

mindys
04-25-2004, 02:52 PM
"I'd like to see how many kids would be playing Little League baseball if it cost their parents thousands of dollars for the equipment to play in."

Oh, there would certainly be some no matter what the costs. There are many goofy parents out there that just can't accept the fact that their little Johnny or Joanie might actually be in something and not be a standout when it comes to their ability. My grandson falls into that classification. He is getting private batting lessons for little league for Pete's sake and he is only seven years old. Little League baseball and other young sports like that should be strictly for their entertainment and not to further the parents ego. I have a HUGE problem with parents who want and expect their children to be the best of everything in everything they do. Simply teach them to try to DO their best and be happy with themselves, the rest is parent gratification.We know a little league parent like that. Their son is ten, they are convinced he will be a Major League Pitcher one day. They send him to training camps all over, buy him books on the greats, the child though too is obsessed with baseball, BUT he is now have recurring injuries and stress fractures no child that age should have from wear. That's not right!

We also know soccer parents who are totally obsessed with their child getting a scholarship. These kids are on traveling competitive teams, for which the try-outs each year are big time! But, statistics show, the kids that have been doing this from 5 years of age on will burn out on soccer by then, if they are on two or three different teams at a time, and many will leave the sport once THEY have the choice.

You will find parents like this also in areas where the Cheerleading squad or Dance squad is the status symbol too. What happens when the child simply can't meet the parents expectations physcially or emotionally anymore?? I think you could search through just the court tv files or about.com and find lots of examples.

Brefie
04-25-2004, 05:43 PM
As a child I was an Irish dancer. That hobby is too expensive for words, but I can tell you this; my parents never forced me to anything. The agreement was that if I let them spend the money, then I would go to class twice a week. END OF STORY. I had very elaborate costumes and hair accessories that cost a fortune, but if I didn't want to compete, then I didn't have to and so help me if I cried for not winning, because I was going to hear all about what a brat I looked when I got home.
I used to hear the mothers promising new costumes, new anything really 'if you win'.
Not to mention all the, "Well I thought my Sarah should have won that."
My mother would never have said anything of the sort. On occassion she said to me, "I thought you deserved to do better, but that's what thought does."
Make Up - NO WAY! Mother wouldn't allow it - dance teacher wouldn't allow it. Although now I believe even Irish dancing competitions are like pageants with a specific talent section.