Sect to forbid underage marriage...

[mykodiak]

Could it be?? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080602/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat Late Monday, elder Willie Jessop said the church won't allow underage girls to marry. Jessop said the new policy will forbid any girl to marry who is not of legal consent age in the state where she lives. Can we believe them?

The article also states that there are many parents that may not return to the YFZ ranch. It's not clear how many might return to the ranch right away. Many of the parents have purchased or rented homes in Amarillo, San Antonio and other places around the state.
Rod Parker, a spokesman for the FLDS church, said some of the attorneys have advised parents to stay away from the ranch for now, but most families want to return so the children can continue the education they were getting at the sect's schoolhouse before the raid.
So, Warren Jeff's little kingdom is unraveling. :rolleyes:

[Details]

Which legal age of consent? The full 18 years old adult - OR - the 16 years old you can do with your parents consent and a legal recorded marriage? Very different things - especially if they don't go out and get that legal marriage license (which is important because letting the girl go out in public and publically say Yes or No somewhere not inside a compound - huge thing they have not had up until now).

I don't really believe them. Not while Jeffs or any of his cronies are in command.

[jubie]

They were pretty clear about the fact that they are allowed to lie to police if it is to protect their religion...

[txsvicki]

I don't believe them. Pedophiles don't want grown women. They've gotten by with all this for a long time, all they have to do is lie and groom the kids to lie until the state loses interest or the whole bunch of them move to another state.

[mollymalone]

Even at "age of consent" if that turns out to be 18, still leaves the young women without much "choice." "Marry X or lose your soul" isn't going to go away imo.

[cheko1]

They'll just figure out a 'NEW WAY' to get away with it...like start getting many more birth certificates from the state then babies that are born with ficticious names & give them to the girls when they get married. Hope this is making sense......make all girls 3-5 yrs older then they actually are when they get married.

FLDS is lieing & will never change nothing!!!

[mollymalone]

Ah, now I see. The wording of his statement is key. They'll marry according to the law in whichever state they are in. Utah, it's age 14 according to Lisa Bloom's show in TruTv.
So they'll just continue what they want to do. Since the law in Texas says you can marry with parental consent earlier than 18 they'll just get the parents to sign off on the younger marriage.

[Ladybass0711]

I will beleive it when i see it, but I am NOT holding my breath on this one.

[mollymalone]

TruTv (formerly CTV) is carrying the Bateman trial, Bateman is an FLDS member who is on trial for sex/impregnanting an underage girl. The girl is older now and is absent from the courtroom, refusing to participate in court. However, there is a document trail which the prosecution is using in its case.

Edited to add: He was convicted and sentenced to 9 months in jail. Prior to sentencing the young woman was in court and read a plea to the court not to punish him.

[mysteriew]

I will beleive it when i see it, but I am NOT holding my breath on this one.

I've been trying to avoid this thread because I want to believe, I really do. But every time I come into the forum I see "Sect to forbid underage marriage" and I think But, but, but...... before they denied that underage marriages existed!!!

With CPS coming to the compound, it will be harder for them to get by with it- but not impossible.

[mykodiak]

Marriage with parental consent will only be allowed if they get a legal (county clerk issued) marriage license. I'm betting that the county clerks will be demanding ID's on anyone that signs the written declaration form and will double-check the birth certificate to make sure everything matches. I don't like the idea of some old man marrying a 16 year old, but that is much more palatable than a 12 year old. I'm wondering how much effort they're going to go through to locate a mother if she's been re-assigned over and over. I do see one loophole that our legislators might have to close soon. From Texas Family Code (bolding & underline mine): Except as otherwise provided by this section, consent must be acknowledged before a county clerk. If the person giving parental consent resides in another state, the consent may be acknowledged before an officer authorized to issue marriage licenses in that state. They'll just get some of their FLDS cronies in Hildale or Colorado City to sign off. But, if they lie on the consent form about their parental status this is also in the Family Code: A person commits an offense if the person knowingly provides parental consent for an underage applicant under this section and the person is not a parent or a person who has the court-ordered right to consent to marriage for the applicant. An offense under this subsection is a Class A misdemeanor.

[TGIRecovered]

Jessop said the new policy will forbid any girl to marry who is not of legal consent age in the state where she lives.


I don't believe for a second, anything the FLDS leadership says.

But take a look at this statement. Why are they forbidding only the girls to marry under-age? Are the men not forbidden? They told these innocent children that they must marry these old men and It is the men who run the place, and the husbands and fathers rule all the women. So...what? If a man marries an under-age girl, is it the little girl who has broken the rules, not the man? How ridiculous is that?

These FLDS leaders are so screwed up they can't even tell a convincing lie. They tell these innocent children that they will burn in hell if they don't obey the men, then the men scheme together to come up with their perverted evil rituals in the name of God.

Totally disgusting.:sick:

Susan

[mykodiak]

You're right. I didn't think of it that way. :sick: :furious:

[mysteriew]

Good point TGI, I hadn't thought of it either.

[Fairy1]

I don't believe for a second, anything the FLDS leadership says.

But take a look at this statement. Why are they forbidding only the girls to marry under-age? Are the men not forbidden? They told these innocent children that they must marry these old men and It is the men who run the place, and the husbands and fathers rule all the women. So...what? If a man marries an under-age girl, is it the little girl who has broken the rules, not the man? How ridiculous is that?

These FLDS leaders are so screwed up they can't even tell a convincing lie. They tell these innocent children that they will burn in hell if they don't obey the men, then the men scheme together to come up with their perverted evil rituals in the name of God.

Totally disgusting.:sick:

Susan

You're right - but they're not "screwed up" - the men know EXACTLY what they're doing and they've found the perfect way to get away with it. Nothing will change. I fear it will be decades before another government entity has the ba**s to try to fix it again. :mad:

[TGIRecovered]

You're right - but they're not "screwed up" - the men know EXACTLY what they're doing and they've found the perfect way to get away with it. Nothing will change. I fear it will be decades before another government entity has the ba**s to try to fix it again. :mad:

And more generations of little girls will have to lay there while being raped and know that no one will protect them.
Any man can commit any crime he wants, and if he claims it's God's will, he's home free. Sure, he will burn in hell, but until then, how many women and children will suffer at his hands until they wish they were dead?

Our laws are in-adequate to protect these victims.

Susan

[FlowerChild]

I LOVE how they are using that excuse for a "school" as an excuse to return to YFZ - because an 8th grade education consisting mostly of religious instruction, "testimony" farm work and caring for younger children and taught by other women with a similarly "enriching" 8th grade education is so superior to all other forms of education out here in the infidel world. That "school" is nothing but another form of indoctrination in the FLDS "way" - they aren't even permitted to read anything but the Bible and Religious texts "approved" or written by the leadership.

I really hope that a proper education with AT LEAST certified instructors checking up on them and their "education" is mandated. That "school" is a crock o' crappola - one of many similar "looks good the outside", is "ugly on the inside" scenes CREATED by the FLDS to sell wholesome, devout,"sweet" families abused and persecuted by the evil CPS Infidels.

Like the big white sparkling "pure" "Temple" the "School" at YFZ is 1890''s, "Little House On The Prairie" pretty and wholesome on the outside, but in reality it's just another method used to indoctrinate children into the belief system that considers women little better than brood mares in the barn and celebrates a man more than God. I am sure Warren Jeffs wrote most of the "material" taught at that school and that his tapes about "being sweet" and going to hell if you even LOOK at someone not "chosen" by him for you are played non-stop.

It isn't "School", it's community indoctrination - making the children a part of the whole "control" structure and teaching them to snitch, lie and "obey" their prophet without question.

Did the FLDS also "agree" to stop dumping their unwanted boys on the roadside? I am sure they said all those boys "ran away" - funny how all but a few "run away" every year...always before they turn 18. The BOYS are just as abused as the GIRLS - but by neglect and abandonment instead of underage marriage...and once again, nobody seems to care about THEM.

My Opinion

[SewingDeb]

Maybe their school should be required to do the no child left behind testing that all the other schools in this country have to administer.

[mollymalone]

http://www.childbrides.org/news_sex_KSL_Poll_Utahns_dont_believe_FLDS_promise .html
"A new KSL poll reveals even more skepticism about their church's pledge to abolish underage marriage. Now, an old sermon by FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs may add fuel to that skepticism." "Almost half believe the FLDS will probably or definitely not follow the court orders. Only one-third believe they will. Almost three-fourths are skeptical of the promise to halt underage marriage, and only 2 percent believe the FLDS definitely will give it up."

"Years ago, Jeffs recorded a sermon about a similar promise by former FLDS leader John Y. Barlow. Barlow was released from prison after signing a pledge to give up plural marriage. But he broke the promise as soon as he was released. "He agreed with his enemies while they had a hold of him so he could get out of their hands. But he didn't obey them. He obeyed the Lord," Jeffs taught. Jeffs' old sermon justified Barlow's false promise with scripture and as dishonesty authorized by God. "But whatever the Lord commands is right, and the Lord told him to sign that paper," Jeffs said."

[southcitymom]

......It isn't "School", it's community indoctrination - making the children a part of the whole "control" structure and teaching them to snitch, lie and "obey" their prophet without question."


I know some folks who think the US public schools do the same thing - except in your statement above they would replace the word "prophet" with "government."

[southcitymom]

Maybe their school should be required to do the no child left behind testing that all the other schools in this country have to administer.

Aren't they homeschoolers? Do other Texas homeschoolers have to administer that test? I know we don't here in GA. I don't think they should be required to do anything beyond meeting the standard TX homsechooling laws.

[mollymalone]

Aren't they homeschoolers? Do other Texas homeschoolers have to administer that test? I know we don't here in GA. I don't think they should be required to do anything beyond meeting the standard TX homsechooling laws.I doubt they'll have to meet anything other than any other Texan who is homeschooling and whatever tests they have to administer. However, if those children are being schooled only until the 8th grade, then they should be mandated to provide them with education albeit homeschooled, through the 12th.

[southcitymom]

I doubt they'll have to meet anything other than any other Texan who is homeschooling and whatever tests they have to administer. However, if those children are being schooled only until the 8th grade, then they should be mandated to provide them with education albeit homeschooled, through the 12th.

What do TX laws require in that regard? Do homeschoolers in TX have to educate through 12th grade? Close friends of ours here in GA homeschool via a method called unschooling - no curriculum or anything.

[mollymalone]

What do TX laws require in that regard? Do homeschoolers in TX have to educate through 12th grade? Close friends of ours here in GA homeschool via a method called unschooling - no curriculum or anything.Perhaps one of our Texas sleuthers can enlighten us on that?

[southcitymom]

Perhaps one of our Texas sleuthers can enlighten us on that?

Yes - I would be interested. The states I am most familiar with don't have a lot of hoops for homeschoolers to jump through. Just wondering about TX.

[SewingDeb]

Aren't they homeschoolers? Do other Texas homeschoolers have to administer that test? I know we don't here in GA. I don't think they should be required to do anything beyond meeting the standard TX homsechooling laws.

I don't know the TX homeschooling laws but I think if children in our public school system have to take end of grade tests, all students should have to take them, home schooled or not (and in all 50 states).

I'm also wondering about schooling only until the 8th grade. In NC, you have to be 16 to drop out of school. Does TX have the same kind of law? I don't think many are 16 in the 8th grade.

[southcitymom]

I don't know the TX homeschooling laws but I think if children in our public school system have to take end of grade tests, all students should have to take them, home schooled or not (and in all 50 states).

I'm also wondering about schooling only until the 8th grade. In NC, you have to be 16 to drop out of school. Does TX have the same kind of law? I don't think many are 16 in the 8th grade.

Yes - these are the sort of questions I am asking too, SD. Maybe I will quit being lazy and go do some research.:)

I am a big fan of homeschooling with very limited government interference (ie - I surely don't think kids should have to take state tests - they don't have to take them in other "private" schools). I don't think GA requires tests. I'll see what I can find on Google about TX.

[southcitymom]

Texas Education Code For Homeschooling

Parental responsibility protected & upheld by the Texas Constitution.
The Governor of Texas says: "In Texas, we view home schooling as something to be respected and protected - respected for the energy and commitment of parents; protected from the interference of government. Texas does not index or monitor home school programs."
This is not intended to be legal advice and is distributed for information purposes only. At this point in time, in spite of the title of this page, there is no education code applicable to homeschooling in Texas. Parental responsibility is protected & upheld by the Texas Constitution. The Texas legislature is given authority over the public free school system only; furthermore, the Texas Education Code is specifically designed for and applicable only to state tax funded educational institutions, per its applicability section which is quoted below.

Compulsory attendance - Between 6 and 17 years of age.


Legislature given authority over public free school system only
Texas Education Code specifically designed for and applicable o state tax funded educational institutions only
No minimum number of days taught per year.
No testing requirements.
No formal filing required, though recommended you tell the school's office you are withdrawing your child.
You are not required to file any papers or notify anyone that you are homeschooling your children in Texas. If they are already enrolled in a public school, you can tell the school's office that the child is going to be homeschooled or is going to be attending a private school. In Texas, a homeschool is a private school. Some districts may want to give you a hard time, but you have every legal right to homeschool without their blessings.

more at link http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/laws/blTX.htm

So, it looks like no testing, minimum days, formal filing or anything in TX if this is current. But when I read at the site further, it does seem to conflict with some unschooling philosophies. I am going to look into that a little more.

[SewingDeb]

Yes - these are the sort of questions I am asking too, SD. Maybe I will quit bneing lazy and go do some research.:)

I am a big fan of homeschooling with very limited government interference (ie - I surely don't think kids should have to take state tests - they don't have to take them in other "private" schools). I don't think GA requires tests. I'll see what I can find on Google about TX.

I didn't realize private schools didn't have to take the tests either. Maybe they should have to just to make sure they are on grade level.

In some states, homeschoolers do have to take a test now and then. Not sure which tests those are.

[southcitymom]

This site gives a great overview of the Texas homeschool laws: http://www.carwrecks.com/homeschool.html.

They are very liberal, though the legislature does not define "bona fide curriculum." However, it sounds like if you are truly unschooling without a set curriculum, they probably won't give you any grief.

I would think the FLDS could label any instruction past 8th grade "unschooling" - which is just a term for learning by living/doing.

[southcitymom]

I didn't realize private schools didn't have to take the tests either. Maybe they should have to just to make sure they are on grade level.

In some states, homeschoolers do have to take a test now and then. Not sure which tests those are.

I do not think private schoolers or homeschoolers should have to take any such tests, but I know that some states (few though - not the majority) do require it.

[SewingDeb]

I do not think private schoolers or homeschoolers should have to take any such tests, but I know that some states (few though - not the majority) do require it.

It seems like the state, by requiring an education to a certain age, would want proof that the child is actually learning and not just playing. It surprises me that most states do not require any testing of home schoolers.

[SewingDeb]

SCM, from your link:

Now children must attend school from age 6 through 18.

----

If the FLDS don't school past the 8th grade, they are in violation. I do get what you are saying about unschooling (learning by living, doing) but is that the same as studying a set curriculum?

My feeling is that home schoolers should have to meet minimum requirements for the grade level and the only way to be sure the home schooling is done in a "bona fide manner" is administering tests. They could be administered by the parent who is doing the home schooling.

[southcitymom]

SCM, from your link:

Now children must attend school from age 6 through 18.

----

If the FLDS don't school past the 8th grade, they are in violation. I do get what you are saying about unschooling (learning by living, doing) but is that the same as studying a set curriculum?

My feeling is that home schoolers should have to meet minimum requirements for the grade level and the only way to be sure the home schooling is done in a "bona fide manner" is administering tests. They could be administered by the parent who is doing the home schooling.


That was my question, SD (about the unschooling). The way I read it, unschooling is not prohibited by the Texas case law because "bonafide curriculum" is undefined - and there are plenty of bonfide unschoolers out there. In any event, what I read also seems to state that it would be very very rare for the state to come check out the curriculum. It would not be difficult to call what you are doing unschooling through age 18 - if that was a hoop you had to jump through. (thinking of the FLDS here)

With unschooling, testing would be difficult, IMHO. Some unschoolers don't have children who learn to read until much later than the average - and - with no set curriculum, they learn things at different times and perhaps a different rate.

While I understand that there are abuses of "homsechooling," my strong belief is that the government needs to remain as hands off as possible. Private schools (parents!) should be able to instruct as they see fit and not according to our government's standards. Some homeschool, in part, to get away from the arbitrary silliness of "testing."

[SewingDeb]

I do understand that SCM but it seems that if the majority of the children in this country have to show they have met certain standards then all of them should have to. Otherwise, just drop the testing done in the public schools so it will be fair to all.

[southcitymom]

I do understand that SCM but it seems that if the majority of the children in this country have to show they have met certain standards then all of them should have to. Otherwise, just drop the testing done in the public schools so it will be fair to all.

I am fine with dropping public school testing. I think it's a bunch of hooey (is that a word?):crazy:! I feel like there should always be options outside the structure of compulsory government schools that are completely free from the rules and regulations of those schools. Hence, private schools!:blowkiss:

[Details]

They should both be tested. A child should be guarenteed a certain level of education if at all possible (barring extremely low IQ or other mental issues) in this society. Some parent who decides they never needed to learn to read so their child doesn't either should not be able to neglect their child to that degree. Reading to a 10th grade level, writing, reasonable math, history, science, etc. should never be an option. I knew about homeschooling - but never that it was so lax on what it requires from parents.

And every citizen should learn what the government requires from them too - taxes, laws, all that civics course stuff that tells you how the country you live in operates. Especially when the parents don't want their kids to know.

[mollymalone]

They should both be tested. A child should be guarenteed a certain level of education if at all possible (barring extremely low IQ or other mental issues) in this society. Some parent who decides they never needed to learn to read so their child doesn't either should not be able to neglect their child to that degree. Reading to a 10th grade level, writing, reasonable math, history, science, etc. should never be an option. I knew about homeschooling - but never that it was so lax on what it requires from parents.

And every citizen should learn what the government requires from them too - taxes, laws, all that civics course stuff that tells you how the country you live in operates. Especially when the parents don't want their kids to know.And with the requirement that one has to have a high school diploma for employment, that's just as important. I've heard of employers sending new employees to courses to teach them to read or write/spell properly, skills they should have learned either in school or at home if home schooled. Most companies won't go to that trouble, they'll just hire someone else.

The flds employ only their own and thus a diploma doesn't seem to be required by their workers, children or otherwise. That's a distinct handicap to those that become "lost boys" or the girls who choose not to follow the strictures of that sect and leave.

[PSUfan]

Ah, now I see. The wording of his statement is key. They'll marry according to the law in whichever state they are in. Utah, it's age 14 according to Lisa Bloom's show in TruTv.
So they'll just continue what they want to do. Since the law in Texas says you can marry with parental consent earlier than 18 they'll just get the parents to sign off on the younger marriage. Here is where I am confused... since they can only legally marry one time, would a parent be able to consent for a "spiritual marriage", for an underage person to have sex with a much older person?

I'm not just asking you.. I am just curious. In PA, I think it would be illegal for a 30 yr old to have sex with a 15 yr old.

[PSUfan]

SCM, from your link:

Now children must attend school from age 6 through 18.

----

If the FLDS don't school past the 8th grade, they are in violation. I do get what you are saying about unschooling (learning by living, doing) but is that the same as studying a set curriculum?

My feeling is that home schoolers should have to meet minimum requirements for the grade level and the only way to be sure the home schooling is done in a "bona fide manner" is administering tests. They could be administered by the parent who is doing the home schooling. That is odd... in PA, my mother never made it past 8th grade. Arlen Specter has always been an advocate for the rights of our local Amish.. he is a big voice though. FLDS does not have a Specter on their side just yet, I suppose. I wonder why the FLDS would be in violation for not schooling past the 8th grade, yet with the Amish, it is a given that they quit school after 8th grade.

[southcitymom]

They should both be tested. A child should be guarenteed a certain level of education if at all possible (barring extremely low IQ or other mental issues) in this society. Some parent who decides they never needed to learn to read so their child doesn't either should not be able to neglect their child to that degree. Reading to a 10th grade level, writing, reasonable math, history, science, etc. should never be an option. I knew about homeschooling - but never that it was so lax on what it requires from parents.

And every citizen should learn what the government requires from them too - taxes, laws, all that civics course stuff that tells you how the country you live in operates. Especially when the parents don't want their kids to know.

I adore you Details, but hope this point of view never ever catches on in our Courts! Parents have the right to teach their kids whatever the heck they want without government interference. They do anyway!

If we want everyone to pass a citizenship test when they're 18 to be official - fine. But government should be far far removed from curriculum (formal and informal) of private educational pursuits. If the gov sticks their nose in private schooling, we'll have much of the BS private schoolers seek to escape - evolution, history, compulsory moral stances. Yuck! Yuck, yuck, yuck!

[SewingDeb]

I am fine with dropping public school testing. I think it's a bunch of hooey (is that a word?):crazy:! I feel like there should always be options outside the structure of compulsory government schools that are completely free from the rules and regulations of those schools. Hence, private schools!:blowkiss:

The testing in the public schools has gotten ridiculous too. I'm just the opposite, just because someone can afford private school or has the time and inclination to home school should not exempt them from the rules and a real education should be assured whether it's testing or not.

[SewingDeb]

That is odd... in PA, my mother never made it past 8th grade. Arlen Specter has always been an advocate for the rights of our local Amish.. he is a big voice though. FLDS does not have a Specter on their side just yet, I suppose. I wonder why the FLDS would be in violation for not schooling past the 8th grade, yet with the Amish, it is a given that they quit school after 8th grade.

In TX, schooling is required to age 18 and that's where this particular FLDS compound is located. I don't know what the rules are in PA for the drop out age.

[SewingDeb]

Found the PA rules, PSUfan. Keep in mind that they may have been different in your mother's day.

In Pennsylvania children are required to attend school until the age of 17. One exception to this is if a student has reached age 16 and is employed during the time the public schools are in session. In that case, he/she is not required to attend school. The student must hold "an employment certificate" which is usually issued by the school district.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/At_what_age_can_you_drop_out_of_school_with_parent al_consent_in_Pennsylvania


Also, the spiritual marriages are not recognized by the state since they are not legally filed. I think if a parent gives permission, they should be held responsible if statuatory rape laws are violated in whatever state they live in, and the older man should be charged as well.

[southcitymom]

The testing in the public schools has gotten ridiculous too. I'm just the opposite, just because someone can afford private school or has the time and inclination to home school should not exempt them from the rules and a real education should be assured whether it's testing or not.

What rules? Who defines "a real education"? You favor the government doing so, I think. I don't!!

[SewingDeb]

What rules? Who defines "a real education"? You favor the government doing so, I think. I don't!!

I have no problem with the public schools my children have attended. 3 daughter have graduated high school with honors. One daughter graduates from college this year and I will have two daughters in college and one son in high school next year. I say they are receiving (have received) a real education. My middle daughter was placed as a sophomore in college her first year of attendance.

I guess since I have no problem with evolution being taught, I have no problem with the government's idea of a real education. Of course, there are things I would do differently if I was in charge...lol...but all in all, they have learned a lot.

We're really off topic here. The thread is about discontinuing underage marriage. : )

[southcitymom]

I have no problem with the public schools my children have attended. 3 daughter have graduated high school with honors. One daughter graduates from college this year and I will have two daughters in college and one son in high school next year. I say they are receiving (have received) a real education. My middle daughter was placed as a sophomore in college her first year of attendance.

I guess since I have no problem with evolution being taught, I have no problem with the government's idea of a real education. Of course, there are things I would do differently if I was in charge...lol...but all in all, they have learned a lot.

We're really off topic here. The thread is about discontinuing underage marriage. : )

I attended a private school for 12 years and a private college for 4. My kids are currently in public school and I am happy as a clam about that. But I don't think the government should fiddle into private schools or determine what a real education is. It should not be the only game in town or the alpha determinator!

Yes - we've gotten offtrack. I'll bet we agree about the underage marriage thing - I'm against it!!:)

[SewingDeb]

I attended a private school for 12 years and a private college for 4. My kids are currently in public school and I am happy as a clam about that. But I don't think the government should fiddle into private schools or determine what a real education is. It should not be the only game in town or the alpha determinator!

Yes - we've gotten offtrack. I'll bet we agree about the underage marriage thing - I'm against it!!:)

Yes, we definitely agree on that! LOL.

[Truly]

I expect there is a rather strong correlation between lack of a basic education and underage marriage. I recently attended an end-of-year homeschoolers association banquet to applaud some of my favorite kids who presented stunning speeches, excellent skills, and stirring musical abilities at the event. There was one man there who got up and said that his son was excelling at math, but that his daughter would only be taught 'consumer math'. I asked him about this and he said that she only needed the math skills necessary to balance a checkbook. Basic addition and subtraction at grade-two level. He is effectively cutting off her future by denying her an education. What options will she have to earn any money to fill up a checking account? What will happen when she meets kids outside of her family and realizes that she knows nothing about science, math, history...etc.? What if she decides she wants to become a doctor? No math. No science. No hope.

Parents who refuse to educate their children are committing child abuse, IMO. Denying them their own liberty and pursuit of happiness. And, in the case of the FLDS, the right to their own lives. FLDS children are not permitted to become free citizens when they turn 18. Everyone has the right to have the opportunity to grow up and decide their own lives for themeselves. Parents who intentionally force their young girls to be sexually assaulted by creepy old men are guilty of the exact same thing as Warren Jeffs. A person can try to call it 'underage spiritual marriage', and whitewash the sickening habits of the child molestors. They can lie to the girls and refuse to let them learn anything except what is indoctrinated by the criminal adults in their cult . It is still sexual abuse of a child and it will forever be wrong.

[SewingDeb]

Truly, it is shocking that this kind of attitude toward a young girl's education even exists. I agree with you that is child abuse.

I also agree that the FDLS effectively cut off any choice for the future for their members. It is wrong that they teach the girls that they are expected to marry early (and to whomever their prophet gives them to) and have a baby a year.

I think it is this patriarchal attitude that really gets to me. Young girls deserves the same choices for their futures as everyone else in this country, including choosing their marriage partner. Pairing them with old men is disgusting!

[Truly]

I know, Deb! It was shocking! Fortunately, the next speaker at the banquet was a doctor who spoke eloquently about how her and her husband are providing an exceptional education to their young daughter. It is the patriarchal nonsense that bothers most people. Nobody wants kids in America to be raised by Taliban-like religious extremists, (With the exception, of course, of the religious extremists like the Fundamentalist LDS and their supporters! That is exactly what they are forcing upon children. No choice on who or when to marry. No chance for girls and women to make their own decisions. It is quite twisted.) The one nasty 'father' at the banquet was such an arrogant man. Calling himself a Christian. Ha! And he didn't even do any of the teaching... that was his wife's (unpaid) job. People who refuse to educate their kids have a big wake-up call awaiting them when the children grow up and resent the parents for denying them an education. The FLDS have imprisoned their children in locked compounds; they are 400 times worse than the father who imprisoned Elisabeth Fritzl in the basement in Austria.

I don't know why there are some American parents who don't ensure that their kids learn math, science, history...etc., in addition to whatever their personal beliefs are. Because, provided they don't lock the kids up in armed compounds like the FLDS do, the kids are going to become aware of all that they have missed. But no. The fundamentalist extremists of all stripes teach nothing but their dogma. I want popcorn when these kids wake up!

Fortunately, everyone besides the FLDS lived through the seventies in America, and will never go back to the days when women were nothing but the property and chattle of men. People will fight and die to protect the rights which so many women have fought and died for.

[Details]

I adore you Details, but hope this point of view never ever catches on in our Courts! Parents have the right to teach their kids whatever the heck they want without government interference. They do anyway!

If we want everyone to pass a citizenship test when they're 18 to be official - fine. But government should be far far removed from curriculum (formal and informal) of private educational pursuits. If the gov sticks their nose in private schooling, we'll have much of the BS private schoolers seek to escape - evolution, history, compulsory moral stances. Yuck! Yuck, yuck, yuck!Nope - simple education. Parents should have the right to teach their children whatever the heck they want - but children should have the right to enough education to choose their own path in the world. A child should learn that they have a right not to be abused - particularly if the parent doesn't want them to learn that. A child must be taught the basics about the laws in the world. And a child deserves an education that allows them to move on in the world - the basics of reading, writing, math, history (FLDS members say they didn't even know who the president was - thought it might be Jeffs), etc. No parent should have the right to educate their child only to the role they want to force them into.

Children are not our posessions, they are our responsibilities. And we've got tons of leeway in how we raise them - but I do think there are minimum standards.

[southcitymom]

Nope - simple education. Parents should have the right to teach their children whatever the heck they want - but children should have the right to enough education to choose their own path in the world. A child should learn that they have a right not to be abused - particularly if the parent doesn't want them to learn that. A child must be taught the basics about the laws in the world. And a child deserves an education that allows them to move on in the world - the basics of reading, writing, math, history (FLDS members say they didn't even know who the president was - thought it might be Jeffs), etc. No parent should have the right to educate their child only to the role they want to force them into.

Children are not our posessions, they are our responsibilities. And we've got tons of leeway in how we raise them - but I do think there are minimum standards.

I agree completely - and it is our (the parents, not the government)responsibility to decide what their educational standards (minimum and otherwise) will be!

[SewingDeb]

I agree Details. There should definitely be minimum standards for education.

You said: Fortunately, everyone besides the FLDS lived through the seventies in America, and will never go back to the days when women were nothing but the property and chattle of men. People will fight and die to protect the rights which so many women have fought and died for.

Imo, it should be a crime not to give these women their equality as human beings. Religion or not!

[southcitymom]

I agree Details. There should definitely be minimum standards for education.

You said: Fortunately, everyone besides the FLDS lived through the seventies in America, and will never go back to the days when women were nothing but the property and chattle of men. People will fight and die to protect the rights which so many women have fought and died for.

Imo, it should be a crime not to give these women their equality as human beings. Religion or not!

I think we all agree with this. I think the disgreement is about what entity should set those standards and what those standards should be.

[yolorado]

It's deeply disturbing to me that the FLDS exists and thrives in this country. Why do we even have laws if we don't enforce them? The FLDS society continues to repress its women and children and to thrive while thwarting the laws of this land regarding bigamy, under age marriage, and various court orders in addition to the possibility of labor code violations and welfare abuse. Beyond that, they evoke the constitution whenever it suits them while ignoring it if it doesn't. They cry out for public understanding and assistance if they consider themselves oppressed but thumb their noses at 'us' all other times. They rant and rave against 'us.' They see themselves as having done no wrong. They think 'we' are all bad. They insist 'they' are only good. They whine that everyone is persecuting them and lying, but apparently, they can lie with impunity. They lie about who they are when they purchase land. They sheltered and protected Jeffs when he was a fugitive from the law. Indeed, they continue to venerate Warren Jeffs as their prophet. His picture was on their walls after the raid. This is a man who re-assigns wives, who casts out unwanted male members, dumping them on 'us,' who is in jail for child abuse, who kisses twelve year olds and whose own nephew says Jeffs molested him. These people have no use for American society in general unless it's to line their pockets with tax dollars from government contracts or to take government assistance to support their lifestyle, one which the majority of US citizens find abhorrent. It's completely annoying that these people continue to ply their cult in this country. Why can't they find some place to be other than here?

[southcitymom]

It's deeply disturbing to me that the FLDS exists and thrives in this country. Why do we even have laws if we don't enforce them? The FLDS society continues to repress its women and children and to thrive while thwarting the laws of this land regarding bigamy, under age marriage, and various court orders in addition to the possibility of labor code violations and welfare abuse. Beyond that, they evoke the constitution whenever it suits them while ignoring it if it doesn't. They cry out for public understanding and assistance if they consider themselves oppressed but thumb their noses at 'us' all other times. They rant and rave against 'us.' They see themselves as having done no wrong. They think 'we' are all bad. They insist 'they' are only good. They whine that everyone is persecuting them and lying, but apparently, they can lie with impunity. They lie about who they are when they purchase land. They sheltered and protected Jeffs when he was a fugitive from the law. Indeed, they continue to venerate Warren Jeffs as their prophet. His picture was on their walls after the raid. This is a man who re-assigns wives, who casts out unwanted male members, dumping them on 'us,' who is in jail for child abuse, who kisses twelve year olds and whose own nephew says Jeffs molested him. These people have no use for American society in general unless it's to line their pockets with tax dollars from government contracts or to take government assistance to support their lifestyle, one which the majority of US citizens find abhorrent. It's completely annoying that these people continue to ply their cult in this country. Why can't they find some place to be other than here?

Thanks for your input, vol.

I did want to repost a link Glow posted on another thread in this forum that states unequivocally that these folks were self-sustaining and not on welfare. In fact, they paid a good deal of taxes into the system. It looks like a lot of the noise about them funding themselves via givernment assistance was smoke and mirrors:

Prior to the raid the YFZ community was self sustaining. According to the Deseret News of May 18, 2008, “the Texas Health and Human Services Commission has reported that none of the families who are members of the west Texas FLDS sect targeted by child protective services were on welfare.” In addition, the children were attending a private school, which received no public funds.
The cost to taxpayers since the raid, however, has been staggering. The Austin American-Statesman of May 21, 2008 estimates the entire population of Schleicher County as about 3,000, with an annual budget of $3.9 million. Court costs for the raid are expected to top $2.25 million even before attorney fees are added. Most of these expenses the county is obligated to pay.
Far from being a burden to taxpayers, the YFZ community prior to the raid was one of the largest taxpaying entities in Schleicher County. According to the Schleicher County Appraisal District, the assessed valuation of the community, including land and improvements, is $21 million. From 2004 to 2007, the FLDS have paid $1 million in property taxes, and the figure has been climbing every year.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/inde...tid=1&index=41 (http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=41)

[yolorado]

Thanks for your input, vol.

I did want to repost a link Glow posted on another thread in this forum that states unequivocally that these folks were self-sustaining and not on welfare. In fact, they paid a good deal of taxes into the system. It looks like a lot of the noise about them funding themselves via givernment assistance was smoke and mirrors:

Prior to the raid the YFZ community was self sustaining. According to the Deseret News of May 18, 2008, “the Texas Health and Human Services Commission has reported that none of the families who are members of the west Texas FLDS sect targeted by child protective services were on welfare.” In addition, the children were attending a private school, which received no public funds.
The cost to taxpayers since the raid, however, has been staggering. The Austin American-Statesman of May 21, 2008 estimates the entire population of Schleicher County as about 3,000, with an annual budget of $3.9 million. Court costs for the raid are expected to top $2.25 million even before attorney fees are added. Most of these expenses the county is obligated to pay.
Far from being a burden to taxpayers, the YFZ community prior to the raid was one of the largest taxpaying entities in Schleicher County. According to the Schleicher County Appraisal District, the assessed valuation of the community, including land and improvements, is $21 million. From 2004 to 2007, the FLDS have paid $1 million in property taxes, and the figure has been climbing every year.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/inde...tid=1&index=41

No government contracts? No WIC? No food stamps? NO EIC? No AFCD? No state education funds? No government funds toward the sustinance of cast out young males or escaped young women dumped on society? No CPS investigations necesitated by the cults known 'religious practices.' You assume the CPS investigation wasn't necessary. I assume it was and blame the FLDS for necesitating it. I'm not just talking about TX. I'm talking about UT and AZ as well and thinking about a Youtube video I saw with a state legislator talking about the disproportinate share of welfare (and other government funds) having been paid to recipients in Hilldale. What about the costs to the states of UT and AZ to prosecute cases against Jeffs and other convicted child abusers, like the man who married two of his 12 or 13 year old daughters or step daughters ? Anyone who owned the TX land would pay the property taxes and I wish it was anyone but this group, someone who had been honest about who they were and why they were buying the property when they bought it. They are in the vast minority, so I don't understand why they can't find some other country. Maybe they'll have less chance of being 'misunderstood' or 'persucuted' somewhere else.

'They' think 'we're' misguided and evil. Most of 'us' think exactly the same thing about 'them.' Oh, I know, they insist haven't done anything wrong. They assert they are all sweetness and light. It's all other people persecuting them. They're pure and good and honest. Everyone else is lying. Everyone else is wrong. Everyone else baaaaad. Blah, blah, blah. If they want to live this way, if they don't want to participate with us in a general society, why can't they just go somewhere else? Mexico, Guatemala, Saudi Arabia. Anywhere out of here. They don't like us or our way. We don't like them or their ways. Why do they stay?

[southcitymom]

No government contracts? No WIC? No food stamps? NO EIC? No AFCD? No state education funds? No government funds toward the sustinance of cast out young males or escaped young women dumped on society? No CPS investigations necesitated by the cults known 'religious practices.' You assume the CPS investigation wasn't necessary. I assume it was and blame the FLDS for necesitating it. I'm not just talking about TX. I'm talking about UT and AZ as well and thinking about a Youtube video I saw with a state legislator talking about the disproportinate share of welfare (and other government funds) having been paid to recipients in Hilldale. What about the costs to the states of UT and AZ to prosecute cases against Jeffs and other convicted child abusers, like the man who married two of his 12 or 13 year old daughters or step daughters ? Anyone who owned the TX land would pay the property taxes and I wish it was anyone but this group, someone who had been honest about who they were and why they were buying the property when they bought it. They are in the vast minority, so I don't understand why they can't find some other country. Maybe they'll have less chance of being 'misunderstood' or 'persucuted' somewhere else.

'They' think 'we're' misguided and evil. Most of 'us' think exactly the same thing about 'them.' Oh, I know, they insist haven't done anything wrong. They assert they are all sweetness and light. It's all other people persecuting them. They're pure and good and honest. Everyone else is lying. Everyone else is wrong. Everyone else baaaaad. Blah, blah, blah. If they want to live this way, if they don't want to participate with us in a general society, why can't they just go somewhere else? Mexico, Guatemala, Saudi Arabia. Anywhere out of here. They don't like us or our way. We don't like them or their ways. Why do they stay?

The link I posted only spoke about this particular FLDS compound.

Other than the fact that they have lived here for so long, I suspect they stay because America is famous for religious tolerance and takes it seriously. I do not, of course, think members of religious groups should escape prosecution when they break our laws, and I do not mind paying to prosecute those who break our laws.

But I love that our country is grounded, in part, by individual freedom to practice religion as one sees fit - even if some of those practices are unpopular or repugnant to the majority of us.

It is a balancing act though. So much of living in a free nation is a balancing act.

[yolorado]

The following exerpt says well what I've been thinking feeling and praying about every since this raid occurred. I will continue to wonder, when the FLDS seem so determined to separate their 'righteous selves' themselves from the rest of us 'sinful cretins, ' why they don't do so more forcefully, more geograhpically? There are other countries and places.

By Sarah Holland
San Angelo Standard-Times
Originally published Thursday, June 12, 2008


"The YFZ Ranch does appear to have, in a manner of speaking, its own laws; financial and food regulations; sexual code; peculiar version of world history; perception of wicked, if not demonized, outsiders and, by definition, its own borders, for which no passport or visa save obedience to the FLDS is deemed good enough to allow entry.

On their own testimony and according to their faith, the people of the YFZ Ranch are a group of reclusive devotees who built a gated community to emulate a city so righteous that its residents ascended to heaven, or to quote Ken Driggs, attorney and expert on the FLDS; " taken to Heaven to meet Christ and be rescued from the wicked Earth." Presumably, the rest of us will be stuck down here forever on our "wicked Earth," which is hardly a belief system that endears this sect to me or, indeed, the rest of my fellow "wicked Earth" dwellers.

Furthermore and also on their own testimony, the FLDS are trained, apparently from birth, to be afraid of us - our food, our lifestyles and our technology. Like paranoid loners, they hide behind high walls and, when questioned, destroy legal documents to ensure that "we" never find out what they're doing.

Finally, they appear, once again on their own testimony, to be teaching their children that underage sex is acceptable, and multiple sexual partners within "spiritual marriage" is the norm.

Outside the high walls of the YFZ compound, we call that list of practices and behaviors: brainwashing, conspiracy, child abuse, statutory rape, fraud and adultery. Yet the YFZ folk seem to have reclassified it along with a number of other trifling laws from "wicked Earth" such as being legally married and registering the birth of a child with the names of both parents.

In fact, the more one hears of this situation, the more one wonders whether their brains have been completely reversed. It reminds me of that scene in Oliver Stone's movie, "JFK," where Kevin Costner says: "We're through the looking glass, people. Black is white and white is black. "

But this astonishing ability for denying reality pales into insignificance beside the alleged worship of their great spiritual leader, Warren Jeffs, the man who is serving five years to life in a Utah jail for "rape by accomplice."

Here is another thing for which we must thank CPS: The weeklong raid begun April 3 is precisely what finally destroyed Warren Jeffs' reputation at the YFZ Ranch. Clearly, up until the raid, his people had been able to turn a blind eye to his illegal practices along with his arrest, conviction and imprisonment.

But thanks to the CPS, Jeffs was suddenly on every news channel in America, paraded every 15 minutes like the Demon King at the pantomime in his orange suit and chains, and no matter what else can be said for television news, it is regulated, monitored and simply not allowed to tell lies.

It must have been quite a shock to his followers to see him so completely exposed as a con man and a criminal, but it would be a much nastier and infinitely more damaging shock if one of their 12-year-old daughters lost her innocence to him or one of his sinister accomplices.

I'm sure every woman who saw that photograph of Jeffs kissing a 12-year-old girl remembered being 12 and felt a pang of sadness for what looked like her shining-eyed adoration of this monster. Most 12-year-old girls assume all romantic attention from men is just that: romantic.

In the case of Jeffs, it was rather more sinister. And if just one mother at the YFZ compound has recognized this and taken steps to protect her children, then she really ought to thank the CPS along with the rest of us."

Exactly, Sarah. Exactly.

[yolorado]

The link I posted only spoke about this particular FLDS compound.

Other than the fact that they have lived here for so long, I suspect they stay because America is famous for religious tolerance and takes it seriously. I do not, of course, think members of religious groups should escape prosecution when they break our laws, and I do not mind paying to prosecute those who break our laws.

But I love that our country is grounded, in part, by individual freedom to practice religion as one sees fit - even if some of those practices are unpopular or repugnant to the majority of us.

It is a balancing act though. So much of living in a free nation is a balancing act.

The rub, though, is that some of their religious practices do violate the law. Underage marriage is against the law here. Polygamy is against the law here. The authorities have often turned a blind eye to these practices but I do not think they should have in the past and certainly hope they do not do so in the future. Why shouldn't this closed FLDS society, so openly contemptuous of so much of America and Americans as a whole, find another place where basic tenets of their religion are not illegal and where the surrounding society is more to their liking? I too love the reality that freedom to practice religion is a hallmark of US society as well as other freedoms, but, based on what I've read and heard over the past several months, it does not appear to me that freedom is a hallmark of FLDS society, in fact quite the opposite.

[SewingDeb]

Amen, yolorado. I don't think the FLDS has any conception of what freedom means in this country.

[cheko1]

Amen, yolorado. I don't think the FLDS has any conception of what freedom means in this country.


So very true SewingDeb!!!!

[IslandGirl]

I do know that you have to get your GED even after it's all over with since the colleged don't accept Mommy High as the name of where you graduated from.
I also know that there are various levels of homeschooling here, from the real to the "yeah, right" kids who are out cutting up around town on their bikes throughout the day.

[SewingDeb]

the "yeah, right" kids who are out cutting up around town on their bikes throughout the day.


Those are the ones I worry about, IslandGirl. Without any accountability or testing, who knows if they are really being educated or not.

[Peculiar Petunia]

Homeschooling is a valid option for some cases, for example, a child with a peanut allergy. But in my opinion, giving a child an "education" that makes them unable to compete in college is condemning them to a lifetime of low earnings.
A good high school advisor can open the doors to a host of colleges for a student that a parent can't find on her own (I use "her" because the mother tends to be the teacher) without shorting the educational process.
Think about a freshman chem student who's never lit a Bunsen burner, or a pre-med student who's opted out of dissections. Even if a student gets into college, he or she is very limited in options regarding majors.
Will a doctor, an astronaut, a language scholar, an engineer, or a lab technician come from the FLDS children, especially the lost boys? I don't think so. And that is depriving our country and the children.

[SewingDeb]

Peculiar Petunia, what you said really gets to the crux of the matter.

Will a doctor, an astronaut, a language scholar, an engineer, or a lab technician come from the FLDS children, especially the lost boys? I don't think so. And that is depriving our country and the children.

As far as the girls go, what choices do the FLDS give them other than marry young and produce one child after another? Those are wasted minds too.

[Peculiar Petunia]

SewingDeb, I agree with you about the girls, but at least they have a "home." I don't ever expect this cult to ever allow them a college option.

[SewingDeb]

Petunia, you're right. The girls do have a home but that's about all they have. Those poor boys are in a really bad place when they are dumped with no money, no education and no where to live.

[Truly]

Yes, Petunia and SewingDeb and Details and yolorado!

The girls might have a roof over their heads, (which may be better than what the boys who are dumped on the streets have), but what kind of home is it? Forced into having sex with some nasty old pervert when the girls are barely teens. They have no choice in who they will love or 'marry'. The 'homes' are full of all of the other unfortunate, uneducated, terrorized young and old women who have also been forced to submit to sex with the same creepy old perv. They are locked in and imprisoned by armed guards. They have no freedom. Every person in America should be given the opportunity to choose for themselves the life they will live. The FLDS 'parents' deny their children the basics of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They are practicing slavery and sexual trafficking of minors against their own children.

I am not concerned with what they eat, what they wear, how they do their hair, etc. They are child abusers, plain and simple. Hiding behind the guise of freedom of religion (for grown child-molestor male cult leaders only!). Sexually abusing children is the worst crime in the world, in my opinion.

Any adult who has handed their own child to an old man to be sexually abused deserves to be prosecuted and imprisoned along with Warren Jeffs, their nasty disgusting leader. This cult is repulsive. Their practices of enslavement and sexual abuse are unconstitutional. It is wrong to deny another person (especially your own kids!) life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I hope they are prosecuted and the children freed to make their own choices.

[SewingDeb]

Truly,

Excellent post. That is the heart of the matter. Religion should not excuse this kind of slavery and abuse in a free country.

[pamlet]

I do know that you have to get your GED even after it's all over with since the colleged don't accept Mommy High as the name of where you graduated from.
I also know that there are various levels of homeschooling here, from the real to the "yeah, right" kids who are out cutting up around town on their bikes throughout the day.

Regarding the GED - that is not always the case - more and more universities are accepting portfolio's of the childs work including Ivy League schools ... also there are programs that have diplomas. Schools of "higher learning" are realizing that many (not all) homeschool students are MORE prepared to enter college than many (not all) traditionally schooled children.

[Truly]

Truly,

Excellent post. That is the heart of the matter. Religion should not excuse this kind of slavery and abuse in a free country.

Thank you, Deb. I don't think that anyone here would ever wish to restrict anyone's religious beliefs. It is the slavery and sexual abuse of children on such a massive scale which most people find repulsive about the FLDS. It just seems to me that they have tried to craft a system to enslave and assault their own children. I am not concerned at all with whatever their actual spiritual beliefs are; I just wish to see the women and children freed from the enslavement and sexual abuse.

[Details]

I agree completely - and it is our (the parents, not the government)responsibility to decide what their educational standards (minimum and otherwise) will be!Collectively - sure - as represented by the government we vote in. Individually - no - not below the minimum required to function in society. If a parent wants to raise an illiterate child, if a parent wants their child to learn nothing but football stats, if a parent wants their child to learn nothing but hate in a muslim madrassa, if a parent wants their child to learn nothing but the bible - no math, no history, no reading, no science - no, it is not OK for them to decide what the minimum standard is.

[Details]

Oh - and about welfare and taxes - yeah, YFZ was not taking money from the government - aside from the government contracts that they appear to be using illegal child labor for - at least not directly. YFZ was the premiere FLDS site, to be supported on the backs - and welfare dollars - from all of the other FLDS members.

There appears to have been a decision, IMO, that FLDS wanted to give LE no excuse, no reason, no opportunity at all to see what they were doing behind their walls. They bought the land under false pretenses (a business resort, supposedly), and changed their practice used in every other location to avoid welfare and other gov't money that came with any string attached that might allow a welfare check on the children and women of the FLDS. Interesting, huh?

[SewingDeb]

Thank you, Deb. I don't think that anyone here would ever wish to restrict anyone's religious beliefs. It is the slavery and sexual abuse of children on such a massive scale which most people find repulsive about the FLDS. It just seems to me that they have tried to craft a system to enslave and assault their own children. I am not concerned at all with whatever their actual spiritual beliefs are; I just wish to see the women and children freed from the enslavement and sexual abuse.

You and me both, Truly.

[SewingDeb]

Details,

I have a feeling that many of the women and children were still receiving aid from the states where they lived before moving to Texas.