The Rest of the Story... [Archive] - Page 2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Pepper

06-23-2008, 02:57 PM

The Salt Lake Tribune had withheld Jeffs' name because Malonis alleged she was a victim of sexual abuse - something Jeffs adamantly denies.
"I am so sick of being called that when I am absolutely not a victim of sexual abuse and you have no evidence to prove that I have ever had sexual relations," she said in her e-mail to Malonis.
Malonis had told Walther during a court hearing in May that she suspected Jeffs had a child, but later acknowledged that is not the case. In her restraint motion, Malonis said she had been told by CPS and law enforcement that Jeffs was spiritually married to an older man when she was 15.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9668662

CPS, LE, Malonis are all on the same side and part of the same system, its funny to see how they all pass the buck and blame each other.

Glow, I'm having trouble trying to understand why you think that the FLDS only speaks truthfully! What is it about brainwashing that you don't understand? There is plenty of truth and testimony that underage girls have been given to old men against their free will for the purpose of bearing as many children as possible between puberty and menopause. Yet you are constantly trying to ignore these facts. Of course the Jeffs girl is going to lie. If she tells the truth she is condemned to eternal hell. That's what she believes, and there is absolutely no sin in lying to the "beast."

One thing is for certain. This so-called "Christian" religion bears no resemblance to following the Ten Commandments!

"Thou shalt not bear false witness" only means with each other, not the outside world.
"Thou shalt not commit adultry" certainly does not speak of monogamy.
"Thou shalt not kill" excuses the act of "blood atonement." If Jeffs says kill, you can bet they will.
"Thou shalt not steal" unless it is from the "beast."
And I won't even go into the one about having "no other gods before me."

They make up their own rules to suit their own purposes. And their main purpose is to enrich the Prophet and other male "officials" of their cult at the expense and degradation of everyone else. It reminds me of a colony of ants, with one queen (in this case, king) and a whole colony of workers that make sure the queen/king is well taken care of, often sacrificing their lives to that end.

Pepper

06-23-2008, 03:08 PM

Ahh but see I am "evil" and probably "work for" the FLDS and at best I am viewed as a sympathizer of perverted old men.

so that sums me up as to why I am a problem.

Now if Carolyn and I are on the same page what is her problem exactly?

Huh? This makes no sense to me. I NEVER said you were EVIL or WORKED FOR THE FLDS, or that you were a "problem." I just think you are uninformed, and are enjoying the role of "devil's advocate"!

If you read Carolyn's book you will learn that she had the benefit of a college education before that right was stripped of other younger women. She is perhaps a tad more intelligent than the rest of the women, and saw in her heart that the practices of the FLDS were mind control and unhealthy. That is why she plotted and carefully orchestrated her escape.

But once Jeffs came into power, she saw the handwriting on the wall.

Glow

06-23-2008, 03:10 PM

There is perpetual outrage over all the ills of general society you decribe.

No there isnt. There is a lethargic feeling that it is bad but "oh well"
You will never get the kind of outrage over mainstream societies ills that you will get if you take a small group of people that dress funny and talk funny and get the ball rolling on their faults and misdeeds.

Sorry, I think I was the one unclear. My basic question was, in essence, do you think it's a good thing that children have been returned to the FLDS society which reveres and follows a pervert? Won't that condone and encourage more perverse behaviour?

I think it is a very good thing that the children were returned. The Texas CPS system is in worse shape than the FLDS system.

I posted links back awhile ago about the state of the CPS system in Texas. The raping of children. The drugging of children. The lack of follow thru for the teen aged boys. It is all a matter of public record.

I dont think a child should ever be taken from a parent and handed over to a government unless the childs literal life is in danger. It should only be done to stop death from occurring. Governments dont know how to raise children. If their parents dont know how either, then that is sad but just means that the government and the parents are both not qualified. Bad parents dont automatically assure good government parenting.

Governments are run by laws. Laws are set by precedents. If we allow the Texas government to walk in unannounced and take children when they KNOW the call they got was bogus, then we have a problem. If the government was allowed to get away with that it could set a precedent. Once that happens the people lose a say over where that power is applied next. The governments power grows stronger - the peoples power grows weaker. I am against that.

As far as the second part of your question about the FLDS. I think it is a shame the raid was carried out for two reasons

#1 reason The children.
Everyone else seems to be very quiet about how badly these kids got treated by CPS. It seems as though to simply acknowledge what CPS did that really was bad is to somehow "side" with the FLDS. That isnt true. I think I would feel a lot better if someone who is on the opposing side of this discussion would actually acknowledge that. The total defense of CPS and the total attack of FLDS seems unbalanced to me. They have both done wrong.

#2 The need to bring about change.
There are things about the FLDS that are in need of change. I think the state of Texas missed a great opportunity to lead the way for Utah and Az and Co in showing them how to bring about effective change.

If you took all the money that was actually spent on this whole mess and all the other resources that were used and handled things differently? Some real good could have come out of it. As it is the state actually handed the FLDS cause to use against the state. So now the water is murky and there will be lots of arguing and issues that dont have anything to do with bringing about positive change. That is a shame and the blame lies totally on the state of Texas for that since they are the ones who chose to get SO worked up that they ended up charging in to YFZ even though they knew Sarah wasnt there and Dale Barlow hadnt been there in years.

That was just a really bad idea.

Pepper

06-23-2008, 03:36 PM

I posted links back awhile ago about the state of the CPS system in Texas. The raping of children. The drugging of children. The lack of follow thru for the teen aged boys. It is all a matter of public record.

I dont think a child should ever be taken from a parent and handed over to a government unless the childs literal life is in danger. It should only be done to stop death from occurring. So the cult can beat them and sexually abuse them as long as they stop short of killing them? Governments dont know how to raise children. If their parents dont know how either, then that is sad but just means that the government and the parents are both not qualified. Bad parents dont automatically assure good government parenting.

Governments are run by laws. Laws are set by precedents. If we allow the Texas government to walk in unannounced and take children when they KNOW the call they got was bogus, then we have a problem. At the time the call was made they didn't know it was bogus. If the government was allowed to get away with that it could set a precedent. Once that happens the people lose a say over where that power is applied next. The governments power grows stronger - the peoples power grows weaker. I am against that.

As far as the second part of your question about the FLDS. I think it is a shame the raid was carried out for two reasons

#1 reason The children.
Everyone else seems to be very quiet about how badly these kids got treated by CPS. How badly were they treated? It looked like the group homes they were in were clean and pleasant. I didn't see any "abuse." It seems as though to simply acknowledge what CPS did that really was bad is to somehow "side" with the FLDS. That isnt true. I think I would feel a lot better if someone who is on the opposing side of this discussion would actually acknowledge that. The total defense of CPS and the total attack of FLDS seems unbalanced to me. They have both done wrong. I am not a member of the Texas CPS. I didn't visit the foster homes while the children were there. I have no first hand knowledge of what you think was abusive treatment. I suspect you weren't there either to judge first hand. I will just plead ignorant on the accusuation unless you can provide some verifiable proof. On the other hand I have studied this cult for several years and read several books about them, and as a result I believe that they have mistreated women and children to the point of being dangerously abusive. I also believe that they have murdered deformed and disobedient children as evidenced by the cemetery Flora Jessops speaks of near Colorado City.

#2 The need to bring about change.
There are things about the FLDS that are in need of change. I think the state of Texas missed a great opportunity to lead the way for Utah and Az and Co in showing them how to bring about effective change. And how would you propose doing that? The powerful men don't want change! Why should they? They are living the good life off the backs of their women and children. What if this "religion" practiced human sacrifice of their first born? Would you still want a hands off approach under the freedom of religion argument?

If you took all the money that was actually spent on this whole mess and all the other resources that were used and handled things differently? Some real good could have come out of it. As it is the state actually handed the FLDS cause to use against the state. So now the water is murky and there will be lots of arguing and issues that dont have anything to do with bringing about positive change. That is a shame and the blame lies totally on the state of Texas for that since they are the ones who chose to get SO worked up that they ended up charging in to YFZ even though they knew Sarah wasnt there and Dale Barlow hadnt been there in years.

That was just a really bad idea.

But again they didn't know about the phony "Sarah" at the time they received the call and made the decision to enter the compound. I am firmly convinced that their actions were in the best interest of protecting the children whom they were convinced were in danger.

Pepper

06-23-2008, 03:50 PM

I should add that the one thing about the raid and subsequent action of the CPS that should have been different is they should have mobilized former FLDS people like Flora Jessops and Carolyn Jessops and Laurie Allen to talk to the women - people that could understand the lifestyle and perhaps guide them in a different direction. I did not see that this was done, and I believe that might have made a difference in the outcome.

yolorado

06-23-2008, 04:13 PM

Glow, I'm having trouble trying to understand why you think that the FLDS only speaks truthfully! What is it about brainwashing that you don't understand? There is plenty of truth and testimony that underage girls have been given to old men against their free will for the purpose of bearing as many children as possible between puberty and menopause. Yet you are constantly trying to ignore these facts. Of course the Jeffs girl is going to lie. If she tells the truth she is condemned to eternal hell. That's what she believes, and there is absolutely no sin in lying to the "beast." Not only that, but she'll condem her mother to hell to for raising her wrong and she'll be cast out and never see her mother or brothers and sisters again, and her brothers and sisters will be glad to see her go because they are going to suffer for the rest of their lives for what she's done, if they live for the rest of their lives, if she does.... She'll be responsible for the persecution of her society. If the leaders think she tried to get out or will testify against them, they might even lock her up send her to Canada or Mexico where no one can find her, or worse. No, she just needs to be a good girl, remember how she was raised, remember that she's married to loyal member. (My guess that's who the other guy mentioned in the restraining order is.) All this can be forgotten. All she needs to do is help Uncle Willie get her a new lawyer, and probably go back to her husband. Apparently, once the courts released Jeffs to her mom under an agreement they had both wanted at the time and supported, both Annette (is that Merrill's daughter or Carolyn's sister or some other Annette?) and Teresa sat by silently while Willie started doing all the talking. He threatened her ad litem if she didn't act more supportively toward the FLDS. It appears he's now following through. I read the ad litem's petition. Willie sounds like one scary enforcer. This ad litem isn't the first to think so.

One thing is for certain. This so-called "Christian" religion bears no resemblance to following the Ten Commandments!

"Thou shalt not bear false witness" only means with each other, not the outside world.
"Thou shalt not commit adultry" certainly does not speak of monogamy.
"Thou shalt not kill" excuses the act of "blood atonement." If Jeffs says kill, you can bet they will.
"Thou shalt not steal" unless it is from the "beast."
And I won't even go into the one about having "no other gods before me."

They make up their own rules to suit their own purposes. And their main purpose is to enrich the Prophet and other male "officials" of their cult at the expense and degradation of everyone else. It reminds me of a colony of ants, with one queen (in this case, king) and a whole colony of workers that make sure the queen/king is well taken care of, often sacrificing their lives to that end.

Sigh. :mad::confused:

Pepper

06-23-2008, 04:23 PM

Excellent points yolorado! This poor girl has been threatened. You can take that to the bank.

Glow

06-23-2008, 04:39 PM

But again they didn't know about the phony "Sarah" at the time they received the call and made the decision to enter the compound. I am firmly convinced that their actions were in the best interest of protecting the children whom they were convinced were in danger.

Pepper,

It is all over the media that they knew the "sarah" that Flora was talking to wasnt in Tx. They also knew that Barlow hadnt been in Texas. They talked to his parole officer. Brooke Adams is a reporter (for the Salt Lake Tribune), and she knew the call was a hoax within a week of the raid, using no more information than was available to any other reporter.

Glow

06-23-2008, 05:15 PM

We could go back and forth with words and how we personally feel all day long and accomplish little. I really think that the facts are there we just have to set aside our feelings and look at them.

I thought I would post some links to some of the "allegations" I myself have made.

#1 The Mistreatment of the children
http://iperceive.net/eye-witnesses-c...ck-with-tears/

Salvation Army wanted no part of this debacle.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/inde...tid=1&index=48

#2 CPS charges of underaged pregnant teens Proven False

The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services had all the power in the world to structure status hearings held this week in any order it wanted. It kept telling us, the media and the public, that there were 31 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who were pregnant, mothers or both.

Now we know the truth: There are only five girls in that group. All but one are or will be 18 this year. One gave birth when she was 17, three when they were 16. One is pregnant.

I kept asking the state for a breakdown by age of the 31 girls, the 60 percent, it claimed were pregnant or mothers. They refused weeks ago and still haven't done it.
Now we know why.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/05/crumbling-case.htm

The rate of teen pregnancy in Texas
While the national teen birth rate has slowed, Texas has made far less headway, alarming public health officials and child advocates. .
Texas teens lead the nation in having babies. Last month, the nonprofit group Child Trends conferred another No. 1 ranking on Texas. In the latest statistics available, 24 percent of the state's teen births in 2004 were not the girl's first delivery.
"That astounded me," said Kathryn Allen, senior vice president for community relations at Planned Parenthood of North Texas. "I mean, what are we doing wrong?"

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-teenbirths_05tex.ART.State.Edition2.4238fb3.html

#3 The Validity of the Intital Raid

Authorities knew before hand not only that Dale Barlow wasn't on the ranch (they'd spoken to him by phone and confirmed he was in Arizona), but they knew the supposed caller wasn't from Texas. According to the petition (if you want to read the whole thing, download the ginormous 75-page pdf file;
http://gritsforbreakfast.blogspot.com/search?q=flds

also

As CPS prepared to visit the ranch, Texas Rangers asked the agency to hold off until it readied its own response. That helps explain why four days lapsed between the call - now known to be a hoax - and the raid, initiated on April 3.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9534517

SewingDeb

06-23-2008, 06:09 PM

Jolynna

06-23-2008, 06:21 PM

In looking in to "who can marry whom" I found some interesting facts.

Fact: It is estimated that 20 percent of all couples worldwide are first cousins. It is also estimated that 80 percent of all marriages historically have been between first cousins!

Fact: In some cultures, the term cousin and mate are synonymous.

Fact: The range of consanguinity in Saudi Arabia is between 34 to 80+ percent. A study has been done on birth defects resulting from consanguineous marriages in this country. Read about it.

Fact: Albert Einstein married his first cousin. And so did Charles Darwin, who had exceptional children.

Fact: Franklin D. Roosevelt, the longest serving US president in history married his cousin (not a first cousin, however they shared the same last name).

Fact: The first Prime Minister of Canada, Sir John A. MacDonald married his first cousin.

Fact: Leviticus 18 lists all forbidden sexual relationships. Cousin relationships are not included.

Fact: God commanded many cousins to marry, including Zelophehad's 5 daughters, Eleazar's daughters, Jacob (who married both Rachel and Leah, first cousins), and Isaac and Rebekkah (first cousins once removed). All were ancestors of Jesus Christ.

Fact: Current studies indicate that cousin couples have a lower ratio of miscarriages -- perhaps because body chemistry of cousins is more similar. The verdict is still out.

http://www.cousincouples.com/info/facts.shtml

In Tennessee marriage between first cousins is legal.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/marriagelicenses/p/tennessee.htm

SewingDeb

06-23-2008, 06:28 PM

SewingDeb

06-23-2008, 06:29 PM

I should add that as cousins or other related members have children together and their children marry related people and their children do the same and on and on, the chances become very high for all kinds of birth defects. That's why most states outlaw it.

yolorado

06-23-2008, 07:18 PM

Jolynna

06-23-2008, 08:25 PM

Jolynna,

Would you recommend it?

I would be worried sick about birth defects if I were married to my first cousin. Actually, not that many defects show up in the first mating of family members but it does show up in later generations (from some reading I did a long time ago...don't have a link handy).

My experience from breeding animals is that crossbred & unrelated make for hardy and healthy animals.

That being said, scientifically, I wouldn't be worried sick to marry a first cousin. If it was a one-generational occurance, I'd barely worry at all. In rural Indian 1/3 of all marriages are between first cousins. In the Arabian Peninsula the rate is 50% or higher.

http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_8.htm

I think when inbreeding is that common generation after generation after generation it does make for more health risks. But, the genetic lines in those parts of the world go back to before written history.

According to the linked article the governments there ARE trying to discourage the practice.

I don't think it is probably a good idea for generation after generation to marry and have children. I was pointing out that it IS legal in some states.

MOO

Glow

06-23-2008, 08:49 PM

Interesting that you would mention that Jolynna,

I have a friend who is Arabic but was born and raised in the States. She is married to an Arab from Ramallah. They are cousins even though they were raised in seperate parts of the world. They have been married 40 years. She was 17 when they got married.

They seem just about as happy as everyone else among my married friends. :crazy:

Jolynna

06-23-2008, 10:27 PM

My final point here will be this. This is a group that wants nothing to do with US general society, a closed society within the US but not of the US. They want their own society in which they call all the shots and make all the laws. They don't want to be a part of 'us.' I don't see why US general society has any responsiblity to make nice with this group, to understand them, to respect their 'rights' when they don't respect those same rights of their own members or the laws of the land and when 'respecting their rights' will almost certainly lead to continued abuse of many of their members and generation after generation of more abusers and more abuse. Why should general society exert efforts to 'get them to trust us'...to what end? They won't. They are determined not to. They see themselves as separate, superior, better, God's chosen. Why don't they leave the country, find somewhere else to go? They are determined to structure their own society, make their own laws and ignore whatever local, state and federal laws they want to ignore. It seems like the best solution for them, and certainly for the rest of us. We have enough problems without having to worry about these people too. They aren't 'us,' they are 'them.' That's the way they want it. Why can't they just be 'them' somewhere else where they are none of our problem?

Us? Them?

In my neighborhood us are mostly Amish and Mennonite. Their forefathers came to the U.S. to be SEPARATE from the mainstream.

They don't pay social security. Their children don't go to school past the 8th grade.

The family buying a business from my husband and I are from India. They are Sikh. Their marriage is arranged. All Sikh marriages are arranged. The wife doesn't sit at the same table as her husband.

Arabs own the restaurant my husband and I frequent. Their marriage was arranged.

My daughter's husband is Asian. He is the grandson of a second wife in a polygamous marriage.

Are my Amish and Mennonite neighbors, the Sikh family, the arabs or my son-in-law not one of us because their culture or religious beliefs are not the same as yours or mine?

I think most follow their faith from a sincere desire to be one of the creator's "chosen". Isn't that the point?

MOO

And yes, I think everyone's rights must be respected. No exceptions.

IMO

Glow

06-24-2008, 01:41 AM

Glow, have you heard about No Child Left Behind and the End of Grade testing before they can be promoted. This has been in place in the public schools in this country for years. They are no longer graduating people who cannot read.

Hi SewingDeb,

I have heard of that but I forgot about it until you mentioned it.

Here is a link I found -

U.S. falls in education rank compared to other countries

Story posted: 10-04-2005 07:07

By Elaine Wu
U-Wire

The United States is falling when it comes to international education rankings, as recent studies show that other nations in the developed world have more effective education systems.

In a 2003 study conducted by UNICEF that took the averages from five different international education studies, the researchers ranked the United States No. 18 out of 24 nations in terms of the relative effectiveness of its educational system.

Another prominent 2003 study, the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study, shows a steady decline in the performance of American students from grades 4 to 12 in comparison to their peers in other countries.

In both studies, Finland, Australia, Belgium, Austria, Hungary, Netherlands and the United Kingdom beat the United States, while the Asian nations of South Korea, Japan and Singapore ranked first through third, respectively.

The TIMSS study is a comprehensive study done on a four-year cycle that measures the progress of students in math and science in 46 participating countries. It evaluates fourth, eighth and 12th-graders through questionnaires, tests and extensive videotaping of classroom environments.

The TIMSS results reveal a lot about the weaknesses of the U.S. education system, said David Marsh, a professor at the University of Southern California Rossier School of Education.
“In fourth grade, American kids do above average internationally. By eighth grade, they slip a bit, and by 12th-grade, they’ve slipped a lot,” Marsh said. “We’re the only country that slides down that much from fourth to 12th grade.”
http://kapio.kcc.hawaii.edu/upload/fullnews.php?id=52

barb0301

06-24-2008, 02:18 AM

Us? Them?

In my neighborhood us are mostly Amish and Mennonite. Their forefathers came to the U.S. to be SEPARATE from the mainstream.

They don't pay social security. Their children don't go to school past the 8th grade. Do they work in a business that requires ss to be paid? If so, they should not be exempt. If not, then I have no problem, as long as they dont' expect to receive ss retirement benefits when they reach retirement age. As for the children going to school, I think it is a shame that they are not allowed to go to school past 8th grade. It leaves them at a disadvantage with their peers on a number of levels. What they could learn in grades 9-12 would seem to greatly benefit the entire community, imo.

The family buying a business from my husband and I are from India. They are Sikh. Their marriage is arranged. All Sikh marriages are arranged. The wife doesn't sit at the same table as her husband. As long as the marriages are arranged between 2 consenting adults, I have no problem. It is when underage girls are forced to marry men many years older than them, and then to bear children at a young age that the protests from the mainstream America begin, me being one of them. Follow the laws on the age a child can be married, and all will be well.

Arabs own the restaurant my husband and I frequent. Their marriage was arranged.

My daughter's husband is Asian. He is the grandson of a second wife in a polygamous marriage.

Are my Amish and Mennonite neighbors, the Sikh family, the arabs or my son-in-law not one of us because their culture or religious beliefs are not the same as yours or mine?

I think most follow their faith from a sincere desire to be one of the creator's "chosen". Isn't that the point? I agree with you here. It is when people follow their "faith" and do what many consider "ungodly things" such as marry young, underage children, force them to have babies and sometimes give them up to other "mothers" in the sect" that it becomes something other than a religious group. It becomes a group of lawbreakers, holding a banner above their heads stating "WE ARE A RELIGIOUS GROUP, AND YOU CANNOT PERSECUTE US FOR OUR BELIEFS", when in reality, all sorts of sick perversions are going on behind that banner.

MOO

And yes, I think everyone's rights must be respected. No exceptions. Including the childrens' rights?

IMO

The quotes in red are simply my opinions.

lynie

06-24-2008, 03:51 AM

Glow, have you heard about No Child Left Behind and the End of Grade testing before they can be promoted. This has been in place in the public schools in this country for years. They are no longer graduating people who cannot read.

Ummmm....that isn't exactly true....

I just read a transcript the other day of a student that just graduated with
a 1.0 and know several that should never have been promoted. NCLB is a joke, and End of Grade testing is not a national program.....

Lynie

SewingDeb

06-24-2008, 10:15 AM

Lynie, could those students read? I was answering Glow's claim that we are still graduating students who cannot read.

I didn't realize EOG testing is not national. I know we have it in NC and just assumed it was part of the national mandate from NCLB.

Pepper

06-24-2008, 10:48 AM

The quotes in red are simply my opinions.

Bravo Barb! I completely agree - especially about the children's rights. To me that is what this case is all about - THE CHILDREN.

Parents say they have the right to raise their children any way they want.

But what about the children? Should the girls be forced into bed with an uncle, half brother or even their own biological father because the parent says they must?

Should underage boys with no education be dumped along the side of the road to fend for themselves because they dared roll up their shirt sleeves on a hot day?

Should these children be denied an education that would make them self-sufficient, when denying this education makes them dependent upon the cult for support?

Their whole "religion" is based around child abuse, and that is what is so wrong. I don't care that they wear prairie dresses or have long hair or ban the color red. I do care that the children are the victims of brain washing and mind control to the point that they have no choices.

SewingDeb

06-24-2008, 02:21 PM

Great post Pepper.

I would like to think if I were raised FLDS and the prophet ordered my child to be married to an older man, I would raise holy h*ll. Maybe I would lose my place in heaven but my child would come first.

Glow

06-24-2008, 03:36 PM

Bravo Barb! I completely agree - especially about the children's rights. To me that is what this case is all about - THE CHILDREN.
Parents say they have the right to raise their children any way they want.

But what about the children? Should the girls be forced into bed with an uncle, half brother or even their own biological father because the parent says they must?

Should underage boys with no education be dumped along the side of the road to fend for themselves because they dared roll up their shirt sleeves on a hot day?

Should these children be denied an education that would make them self-sufficient, when denying this education makes them dependent upon the cult for support?

Their whole "religion" is based around child abuse, and that is what is so wrong. I don't care that they wear prairie dresses or have long hair or ban the color red. I do care that the children are the victims of brain washing and mind control to the point that they have no choices.

Should children be forced out of bed in the middle of the night and interrogated by strangers?

Should breastfeeding babies be physically torn out of their mothers arms with no proof that they have ever been harmed and without any charges OR legal representation?

Should children be corralled in mass in stable where there is still hay on the floor to live basically like animals with only a bucket to bathe in?

Should young girls have to lay down and be forcibly poked and prodded in their vagina by a stranger looking for "proof"of virginity?

See where I am going with this?

All the statements you made Pepper are inflammatory and geared in one direction. All of my statements above are inflammatory and geared in one direction. It doesn't matter that all of your statements and mine are both true. What matters is that they invoke intense emotion and outrage. That is not ever a climate in which a childs best interest should be decided. That is what has been wrong with this case from the beginning.

Where are they calm cool heads? CPS got calls from an alleged Sarah. Flora was talking with her on her cell phone. As we all know it is easy to see where a call is coming from on a cell phone. She wasn't calling with a Texas area code! The Texas Rangers wanted to go in and raid and went looking for a Judge to sign a warrent. The first Judge refused so they kept looking. Finally found Judge Walthers and she agreed to do it. CPS wasn't sincere in trying to "save" Sarah. They waited 4 days because the Rangers said THEY werent ready. All along it was meant to be just as massive as it was. True, they didn't know how many children were in there BUT they knew how much muscle they planned to bring in on their end! So CPS sits..................and they wait.............hour after hour.............day after day................for 4 days and then they go in to "rescue Sarah?

Why isnt everyone SO upset with CPS for delaying by DAYS the rescue of Sarah? Poor Sarah being beaten by her mean old husband and picked on by the sister wives. Flora Jessop is personal friends with the head Ranger that gave the command to raid YFZ. Couldn't she have told him that they would meet with passive resistance because that is part of their religion?

And on that note...what is that exactly that Ranger Long and Flora were choreographing the whole raid? That has a very fishy smell.

This case is not just about whether young women are being married off to old men. Would that it were that simple. This case is about a small and strange religion or cult. Also, apostates from that religion - and EVERY religion has them - are being lauded as the "experts" on that religion. They are apostate for a reason, obviously they did not mesh with the group. That may be the because of the group OR it could be because of them. Surely they should just be ONE of the many voices that are taken into account here.

This case is also about how much power a government appointed entity can and should have. An entity that is under its own governments scrutiny for doing the SAME things to children that the FLDS is accused of. How much unlimited power is TOO much?

This case is also about what a persons civil rights are and that especially includes the children. If the most innocent among us do not even have the right to due process then who does?

Also the women. I have seen these women made fun of because of how they dress. How they wear their hair. Even how they speak. How sad. How sad that we mainstream women who claim such great pride in our liberated views and the empowerment of women have reduced ourselves to trashing these women on such petty things. What about our own horrendous beehive hairdo's of the 60's? What about some of the clothes that went along with those hairdo's? Think Go- Go boots and fishnet stockings for example. We really have room to criticize their clothes? What does that have to do with anything??? As far as how they speak it is completely moronic to criticize them. Any people in a closed community begin to talk alike. That is not unique to them. Have you ever noticed the entire Kennedy family? From Ted to Maria. They all have the same jawline the same mannarisms the same accent and the same inflection. The FLDS are not alone in that.

Those are just some of the petty and shallow points that we "mainstream" women have offered up about these women that we know very little about. We know very little about them because

a) we only read the words of their enemies to inform oursleves
b) we find out there is abuse and we can hear no more - ears are closed.

There are no words to describe how sad that is. That in this day and age women are reduced to that level of cattiness towards fellow women. Ethnocentrism is alive and well especially among us liberated and mainstream women it seems.

And lastly this case is about religion. Everybody gets a little scared to mention that but it is still true. These people practice and believe some things that are putting them at odds with the laws of the state they live in. Naturally SOMETHING is going to have to be decided. This age old and global clash of religion VS government is in part, why we even have a country called America.

These reasons (and there are more) are what need to be looked at in this case. We need to have conversations that are cool headed and based on facts. The goal here should be change for these children. Change comes through enlightenment NOT through raids and threats and hate.

Yes, hate. Some, not all, HATE these people and they use they "ick" factor of the young girls/forced marriage as their "rightful" basis to do so. Nothing good in the history of the world was ever accomplished for the sake of children, when it was based on hate. We need to hope that changes - for the children.

Truly

06-24-2008, 04:37 PM

...

Those are just some of the petty and shallow points that we "mainstream" women have offered up about these women that we know very little about.

...

Yes, hate. Some, not all, HATE these people and they use they "ick" factor of the young girls/forced marriage as their "rightful" basis to do so.
Glow, you are the only one who has remained steadfastedly focused only upon the shallow issues while ignoring the elephant in the room. You refuse to acknowledge or discuss our rightful concerns that the FLDS children have been enslaved in armed compounds and forced to submit to sex with older male relatives, and insult all of us who care about the victims of child abuse by dismissing our desire to seek justice for the children as some sort of warrantless, infantile emotion you have christened 'the ick factor'. It is insulting and demeaning, especially to those of us who have actually survived childhood sexual assault.

Pepper

06-24-2008, 05:31 PM

Glow, I must agree with Truly.
Glow, you are the only one who has remained steadfastedly focused only upon the shallow issues while ignoring the elephant in the room. You refuse to acknowledge or discuss our rightful concerns that the FLDS children have been enslaved in armed compounds and forced to submit to sex with older male relatives, and insult all of us who care about the victims of child abuse by dismissing our desire to seek justice for the children as some sort of warrantless, infantile emotion you have christened 'the ick factor'. It is insulting and demeaning, especially to those of us who have actually survived childhood sexual assault.

You ignored the important part of my post:
Their whole "religion" is based around child abuse, and that is what is so wrong. I don't care that they wear prairie dresses or have long hair or ban the color red. I do care that the children are the victims of brain washing and mind control to the point that they have no choices.

I don't think we are ever going to agree. I don't hate these people or laugh at them because of their dress. I PITY them because they are so clueless to the degree they are being manipulated by the men they believe have a direct pipeline to God.

Frankly I think you are being condescending and insulting to even hint that those of us on the children's side of this issue would feel the way you describe. I'm beginning to think you have a personal vendetta against the CPS as if they were agents of the devil! As I've said before, I have no personal reason to judge the CPS one way or another, especially the Texas people. I do know that here in California children DIE way too often at the hands of their parents because the CA CPS does not act quickly enough to protect the children and they are often returned to abusive parents prematurely.

I think you are way underestimating the degree of mind control that has gone on within the walls of the FLDS. Children and mothers have been "reassigned" to other families when the father head has been found to be "unworthy." Glow, you keep trying to paint these people with your value system, and that just doesn't work. Mothers are kept from bonding with the children they bore. I firmly believe that if the father decides to kill one of his children because of some egregious error, the mother would accept that decision with very little or any protest. These people are trained to become robots.

Jolynna

06-24-2008, 06:33 PM

The quotes in red are simply my opinions.

I have posted many, many times that I oppose anyone having sex with a minor. I don't condone that.

I don't think children should be dumped by the side of the road.

Anyone guilty of either of those acts should be prosecuted. Absolutely.

But, yes, there does need to be evidence those crimes were committed.

I think it possible to oppose having sex with or dumping children and also to support everyone's right to due process.

IMO

SewingDeb

06-24-2008, 06:33 PM

Glow, how would you propose enlightenment for these people?

SewingDeb

06-24-2008, 06:40 PM

It is my understanding that the investigation is ongoing and the parents have rules to abide by and CPS will be checking on the children. Am I wrong?

Everyone has a right to due process...that is correct. It was the lies about who belonged to who, etc. that forced the taking of the children and the mass hearing right after the raid.

CPS did not take the children the first day. They were there to find Sarah. While they were there, they found other things (broken bones and pregnant teens as well as very young looking mothers) that concerned them and it was the next day and with paperwork that they returned, iirc.

Jolynna

06-24-2008, 06:59 PM

Glow

06-24-2008, 07:51 PM

Im sorry Pepper I didnt mean to ignore part of your post. I try to only ignore rudeness OR redundancy and yours was neither.

My apologies.

Their whole "religion" is based around child abuse, and that is what is so wrong. I don't care that they wear prairie dresses or have long hair or ban the color red. I do care that the children are the victims of brain washing and mind control to the point that they have no choices.

If you want to know what any religion believes you refer to their Articles of Faith. Every religion has this. That will tell you what their religion is based on-

Articles of Faith
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535-541
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith.

****

The girls marrying underage, is a concern that has reached a new level under the maniacal leadership of Warren Jeffs. Hopefully between his imprisonment and all the publicity brought about by the raid, we will see this end.

Frankly I think you are being condescending and insulting to even hint that those of us on the children's side of this issue would feel the way you describe..

Arent we all on the childrens side?

I'm beginning to think you have a personal vendetta against the CPS as if they were agents of the devil! As I've said before, I have no personal reason to judge the CPS one way or another, especially the Texas people..

I have no vendetta against anything except the abuse of children and their civil rights. When that happens I am going to speak up. I understand you feel you have no personal reason to judge the Texas CPS. I feel I do. They have one of the worst track records of any state. When they snatch an additional 460 children into a system that is already under investigation for its own abuse - I am going to judge that.

I do know that here in California children DIE way too often at the hands of their parents because the CA CPS does not act quickly enough to protect the children and they are often returned to abusive parents prematurely.

I know what you mean. We have the same situation here in Fla. which is another state with a bad rap as far as CPS. However, we cannot let the fact that tragedy happens, cause CPS to go to such a hyper alert level that they cause tragedy TO happen. That is my whole point.

I think you are way underestimating the degree of mind control that has gone on within the walls of the FLDS. Children and mothers have been "reassigned" to other families when the father head has been found to be "unworthy." Glow, you keep trying to paint these people with your value system, and that just doesn't work. Mothers are kept from bonding with the children they bore. I firmly believe that if the father decides to kill one of his children because of some egregious error, the mother would accept that decision with very little or any protest. These people are trained to become robots.

CPS made claims that the children didnt know who their parents were.Yet when the Supreme Court ruled that parents were to be given their children back once proof of parenthood was established, the children were reunited within hours. If there was ONE child that CPS could have claimed as "unidentifiable" as to parentage they would have. There wasnt one.

Glow

06-24-2008, 08:14 PM

Glow, how would you propose enlightenment for these people?

Well they already had their backs up after the raid at Short Creek so I definitely wouldn't have gone in with the same appearance!

I would have also accepted the drivers licenses and other documents I was offered as to proof of age instead of refusing them. That would have lowered the amount of women and children that needed to be displaced.

IF anyone HAD to be displaced - I would have treated them with the same kindness that the FLDS say they received from the mental health workers and the Dr's and the volunteers. They are telling us how they were treated and they are not coloring all of the outside world with one color. The FLDS have been very clear as to the many acts of kindness that was shown to them during what was a difficult situation all the way around. They have been equally clear as to who was rude and treated them with less then they are entitled to morally and legally and constitutionally. That was CPS.

Once I had gained entry and had some sort of sifting and sorting program going as to who was who, I would have sat down with the leadership and tried to work on finding some common ground. I would have tried to build trust by demonstrating respect for the positives that they have in place.

Basically it will all have to begin from a place of respect and education. That is how it is going to have to be approached now anyway. Its just to bad it couldnt have gone that way in the first place.

This isnt just an "American" problem The WHO has been fighting genital mutilation of women for years. They have had some success. I would look at their success as a blueprint for what DOES work. Notice that guns, bullying, middle of the night interrogation and the taking of children are NOT listed as being effective.

quote-
there are cases where attempts at ending FGC have been successful. One example is in Senegal, where initiative was taken by native women working at the local level in connection with the Tostan Project. Since 1997, 1,271 villages (600,000 people), some 12% of the practicing population in Senegal, have voluntarily given up FGC and are also working to end early and forced marriage. This has come about through the voluntary efforts of locals carrying the message out to other villages within their marriage networks in a self-replicating process. By 2003, 563 villages had participated in public declarations, and the number continues to rise. By then, at least 23 villages in Burkina Faso had also held such community wide ceremonies, marking "the first public declaration to end FGC outside of Senegal and showing the replicability of the Tostan program for large-scale abandonment of this practice". Molly Melching of TOSTAN believes that in Senegal the practice of female genital mutilation could be ended within 2–5 years. She credits education, instead of cultural imperialism, for the rapid and significant changes which have occurred in Senegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Truly

06-24-2008, 09:41 PM

Im sorry Pepper I didnt mean to ignore part of your post. I try to only ignore rudeness OR redundancy and yours was neither.

Here are the key phrases from Pepper's excellent post which you have refused to discuss: 'child abuse'...'no choices'.
Care to take one more stab at it?

As far as rudeness is concerned, you are outstanding in a league all your own. No matter. Life is too beautiful to spend any of my time or energy worrying about it. All of my concern is for the victims of the abuse. The abusers and their defenders do not deserve any of my time or attention.

Truly

06-24-2008, 09:55 PM

Well they already had their backs up after the raid at Short Creek so I definitely wouldn't have gone in with the same appearance!
Short Creek was 50 years ago. If the FLDS were going to change their behavior on their own, they have had plenty of time to do so.

Once I had gained entry and had some sort of sifting and sorting program going as to who was who, I would have sat down with the leadership and tried to work on finding some common ground. I would have tried to build trust by demonstrating respect for the positives that they have in place.

This is the approach that the police used to take when responding to domestic violence or reports of child abuse. The male officer would take the man aside and buddy-buddy laugh it off, while telling the woman to obey the abuser. That approach was a dismal failure. The woman and children were forced to remain in the home with the abuser and suffer his further beatings, knowing that if she called the police, she would be in even more danger. Hence, the current approach of removing the victims from the abuser was established.

Basically it will all have to begin from a place of respect and education.

It starts inside. Respecting the women and educating the children would certainly be a start for the FLDS.

(My comments are in red.)

Glow

06-25-2008, 12:04 AM

I have posted many, many times that I oppose anyone having sex with a minor. I don't condone that.

I don't think children should be dumped by the side of the road.

Anyone guilty of either of those acts should be prosecuted. Absolutely.

But, yes, there does need to be evidence those crimes were committed.

I think it possible to oppose having sex with or dumping children and also to support everyone's right to due process.

IMO

I agree with you Jolynna. I think everyone agrees with the things you have outlined above.

One of the things I havent felt I could give an opinion on is the "lost boys" I am still reading the various statements on that and trying to discern where the truth lies.

SewingDeb

06-25-2008, 12:48 PM

Glow, you don't believe the lost boys stories?

Glow

06-25-2008, 01:56 PM

Glow, you don't believe the lost boys stories?

I think based on simple math - polygamy creates a problem for itself.

The basic structure of polygamy is going to cause an imbalance. Just doing the math shows that. If you have a (roughly) 50/50 split of boy babies to girl babies and the females are later clustered in 3 to 1 ratios or greater with the males, what happens to the "extra" males?

The FLDS practice polygamy because mistaken or not they view it as a spiritual injunction. The problem is that in ancient (biblical) times polygamy would work because the young men comprised the fighting army and there would have at times been an actual shortage of young men. To keep the "tribe" growing at a fast clip, polygamy would have been a very practical answer. There wouldn't be any widows, all children would have a father, the number of children born each year would hold steady and so on.

But in the FLDS world of today, the young men aren't going in to battle. If they were set free to find wives and bring them back that would be one way of handling the problem - but they are not supposed to marry outsiders. There appears to be a dilemma.

Also, when you look at the CPS official count, there was a striking difference between the numbers of teen aged boys taken into custody VS teen aged girls. Among the young children the numbers are more consistent. So why the difference with the older kids? Was it because CPS's primary concern was under aged pregnant girls and so boys that appeared older were left on the ranch? Or is because of the "lost boys" factor?

I really dont know...SO much of what goes on around this case is political that it can be hard to find that one clear line of truth and follow it.

For example -

The term “lost boys” was coined by Shem and Dan Fischer in 2004, when Dan Fischer began his Diversity Foundation in Salt Lake City to help troubled boys who had left the FLDS culture. People are a combination of many traits, and it is easy to oversimplify. Dan Fischer likely is motivated in part by a desire to help these boys, and he no doubt has done much good for some who have made such a radical departure from FLDS beliefs that they no longer feel comfortable in their former culture; but being a bitter ex-FLDS member, Dan also is motivated by a desire to attack the religion he was once a part of. As a successful dentist and businessman, he differs from other anti-FLDS crusaders in maintaining a greater professional distance and manipulating others into making more direct attacks on the FLDS religion.

Needing a group of young men to make public statements at the July 31, 2004, news conference on the steps of the Utah State Capitol Building held to launch his Diversity Foundation, Dan hosted a party at his home the week before. The Deseret News of August 26, 2004, included statements from several of the teenagers who attended this party, showing that they felt manipulated and exploited.
George Barlow, who was 20 years old at the time, married and working full time, reported, “One of his guys called me and asked if I wanted to start some stuff against Warren Jeffs. He said they were willing to pay me $500 for the trip up, to take me to a game, put me up in top-of-the-line hotels in Salt Lake City. I told him I didn’t care for it.”

Dan Timpson, 19, who left home two years before, also refused a similar offer. “I didn’t have to run away from home,” he said. “My dad helped me; he let me do that and let me make my own choice. I have no problem with the folks out there. I left the place with a good feeling. They’re good people, and I personally think people should live the way they want.” At the time of the Deseret News article, Dan Timpson was working with his father in the tile-setting business.
Some who attended the party reported that beer and wine were made available to any of the young people who desired to partake and that many had done so. One 16-year-old girl reported that an attorney talked to each teen to see who was willing to make statements about why they were “kicked out.” “They got a lot of those kids drunk,” she said. “Every last child there was underage. Alcohol was given to any child who wanted it. I told my mom about it as soon as we got back. It was crazy. Most of the things the kids said up there, they were drunk and they lied. It was just sad. Those kids were all saying their parents kicked them out. But they weren’t; they had a choice.” At the time of the article, this girl was living in St. George, working part-time, and attending high school.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=68

This a quite lengthy article containing letters from some of the boys as well as from the parents of "the boys."

There is a man who grew up FLDS and has removed himself from the the group. He blogs under the name of "Pligchild" and he is one of the rare ones who have left the group but without anger. He is pretty straight forward in his assessment of things. As you know, the link I posted above is definitely "pro" FLDS viewpoint. The mainstream media has done a prolific job of giving us the "con" FLDS viewpoint. So I was looking for someone more in the middle. That is why I like to read what pligchild has to say.

I am at work and cant look right now but I will find his link and post it later.

Glow

06-25-2008, 03:32 PM

I found the blog that I had mentioned earlier of Pligchilds.

quote
"I want to address the ridiculous story that these guys were “kicked out” to reduce competition for brides. I am sorry, I am laughing just to type this. If it wasn’t all over the news I would think it was a cartoon. If these guys wanted to compete for the girls, they sure didn’t try very hard. All you had to do was obey the doctrines of the church. I am sure some men in the FLDS have as many wives as they do because there weren't enough young guys who would settle down and obey the church doctrines.

http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/lost-and-found-boys.html

Glow

06-25-2008, 04:43 PM

Some enterprising ladies have begun offering FLDS children's clothing to the public. You will find dresses, overalls, shirts, nightgowns, sleepers and, yes, ankle-to-wrist underwear at fldsdress.com.

The "About Us" page says the site is dedicated to providing ''children with clothing that meets the FLDS standards for modesty and neatness. . . . Each piece is made with joy and care." The page features quotes from the Book of Mormon and smiling, beautific children as models.

You will find handmade denim jeans for boys and ''teen princess'' dresses in plain, jacket and vest styles in pastels shades: pink, peach, yellow, green, aqua, blue, lavender and lilac. They sell for $35.65.

Apparently, some enterprising FLDS women figured that with all the talk about the way they dress and a pressing need to support themselves, they might as well do what they do best: Sew.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Glow

06-25-2008, 05:27 PM

This Natalie Malonis is really something! She is the lawyer appointed to care for the "best interests" of Teresa Jeffs.

The Teresa Jeffs-Natalie Malonis dispute, will be taken up in court today. Teresa is the 16-year-old daughter of Warren S. Jeffs.

Imagine being her. Now replay the past three years, and imagine being her: The FBI's Most Wanted List, the news shows, YouTube parodies, the T-shirts, the Big Love, the Lost Boys, the Escape and Stolen Innocence, the Oprah shows -- all of it centered on your father.

It is easy to focus on the man, forget about the sons and daughters.

And now, Teresa finds herself, or at least her life, in the kleig lights.

Already, Natalie has revealed all kinds of things about Teresa in courtroom statements or filings, from suspicions the teenager had a child (wrong) to an alleged spiritual marriage (unclear) to having had sexual relations (denied) and the girl's scheduled appearance before the grand jury meeting in Schleicher County this week.

So much for grand jury secrecy.

Natalie says her source for most of this information about Teresa is CPS and law enforcement. Are CPS and law enforcement queuing up other attorneys, too? We'll see.

Natalie has said other teenagers are in similar situations but she is the only attorney to seek special conditions for her client and to take the details public.

Teresa has gone public now, as well, letting Judge Barbara Walther and all the world know she wants a new attorney, one who won't oppose her desire to write her father and move, along with her mother and siblings, back to the YFZ Ranch.

Natalie told me yesterday that yes, she is supposed to represent Teresa's wishes to the court. But, Texas Family Code allows an attorney ad litem to ''substitute'' his or her judgment when a child's desires are not deemed appropriate.

And Natalie is asserting that Teresa's requests are being shaped by those around her -- specifically Willie Jessop, an FLDS member and spokesman for the sect.

Teresa adamantly insists that is not the case, that she lost confidence in Natalie months ago because of the way the attorney treated and talked about her, her father and her faith.

Here are a few questions: If Willie is the problem, why is the temporary order Walther issued last week fixated on Annette, Teresa's mother? Why is Annette being subpoenaed to appear in court rather than Willie? What are the possibilities? That Annette will be charged with failure to protect her daughter and be jailed? Or have Teresa, if not her other children, taken away?

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Glow

06-25-2008, 07:54 PM

What do you do when you get bored with sitting outside a courthouse waiting to testify to a grand jury?

If you are Teresa Jeffs, you climb a towering live oak.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/uploaded_images/flds-grand-jury-tn-9701-744937.JPG

Teresa, the 16-year-old daughter of FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs, got four women and several attorneys to help her haul a picnic table over to the tree. Despite her long blue dress, Teresa clambered up and found a nice branch where she perched about 30-feet off the ground.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Glow

06-25-2008, 08:53 PM

The level of misinformation about the FLDS and their ways is astounding. I, myself, began with the same picture of these people as is commonly held–an extremist cult who practices a perverted form of the restorationist doctrine of celestial plural marriage wherein young girls are forced into early marriage and pregnancy, kept in poor conditions, mistreated–all to serve the lusts of the ruling body of old men, who oust young boys to keep them from stealing their would-be brides. Sensationally salcious to say the least, and those who spread such an image, such as Carolyn and Flora Jessop or Elissa Wall, undoubtedly sell many more books painting the FLDS that way than they would if the picture were a little truer to life.

http://naiah.synthian.org/?p=216

SewingDeb

06-25-2008, 10:47 PM

Glow

06-25-2008, 11:15 PM

Hi SewingDeb,

I thought about you when I posted that link - I was guessing that you probably sew!

As for your link, I think it is wonderful that they got this stopped AND that they got attention from the press. That is good.

Truly

06-25-2008, 11:24 PM

About the sewing website. I don't think it's going to catch on in the mainstream America. They probably sell these to other FLDS parents all the time.

I thought this was interesting from Ernie Allen, president and chief executive officer of NCMEC:

"These kids are victims. This is 21st century slavery," Allen said. "They lack the ability to walk away."

LOL, Well...Halloween is just around the corner! Imagine the possibilities! Some kids could dye their costumes black and they might as well be wearing burquas! It could be a horror parade for oppressed women everywhere! Might open some eyes to the similiarities amongst the unfortunate women worldwide who are forced to live in fear and slavery just because some man decided he owns them.

The comment about 21st century slavery is definitely appropriately applied to the women and girls who are locked into sexual slavery by the men of the FLDS. I still wonder if the multi-million-dollar compound in Eldorado, Texas was not actually built to entertain corporate clients from Las Vegas, (as the FLDS claimed when they purchased the property). The manicured grounds, the pristine little girls trained to sexually satisfy old men...What was the business plan for the YFZ ranch? Child Prostitution? We know that many of the lost boys have been dumped in Las Vegas to work as prostitutes. There is a group trying to help them who have realized that these boys are not gay prostitutes; they are homeless FLDS boys who have been dumped on the street and told to sell their bodies to men.

Montana

06-26-2008, 12:05 AM

Can we just retitle this thread Glow's bias and be done with it? It has become pointless.

Glow

06-26-2008, 12:32 AM

Can we just retitle this thread Glow's bias and be done with it? It has become pointless.

Montana,

Im sorry that this thread bothers you that much. I have thought at times what would I do if I was on the opposing side of my own argument.

If I hated the FLDS and wanted the truth to come out.

My answer to myself was that I would dig and find the links that would support what CPS did. I would disprove their unkindness to the innocent children they took into custody.

I would disprove the cloudy questions about the constitutionality of their actions.

I would find ONE thing other than the under aged marriage to bury these people with. I think I would begin with

their financial operations (highly suspect)

the reputations of their "leaders" (ditto)

and the problem of the "lost boys" (that one really bothers me personally)

What I know I would NOT do insult a poster (by name) rather than the post.

But that is just me. I respect the fact that you have your own approach. I welcome any FACTS that you would like me to look at to change my mind on one thing...

My one and only stand here is to tell the rest of the story about the raid which I feel was wrong. If you can bring facts to show that it was the right thing to do that would be productive.

Truly

06-26-2008, 12:38 AM

Glow, everybody already did all of that. Over and over. Did you read all of mollymalones posts? flowerchild? etc., etc., etc.,

You flat-out refuse to entertain the reality that the men of the FLDS abuse women and children. You think it is a big joke to ignore the abuse and point out the pretty dresses and degrade all of us who get it. Montana is right. This is pointless.

Glow

06-26-2008, 12:57 AM

I asked this question earlier, but I wanted to post it again. So many seem to feel these girls are being denied an education. I was wondering about the educational level of all of us posting here. We are free and mainstream and can get as much education as we want. So how much did you get? How about your moms? Your daughters? Your sisters? Your friends?

Good grief I am actually qouting my own post - I was too lazy to retype :doh:

A lot of concern has been expressed over the education that the young women get in the FLDS. I was wanting to pose the same question again. Logically, if we are going to fault these women for not getting a good education, then we on the outside are availing ourselves of that I assume. I would really like to hear whatanyone thinks on that topic.

SewingDeb

06-26-2008, 01:48 AM

SewingDeb

06-26-2008, 01:50 AM

Glow, also wondering why you find anything other than underage marriages. Isn't that enough? Especially when the young girl is not in love and would never choose that particular man to be married to.

Glow

06-26-2008, 02:18 AM

Glow, my parents were college graduates. My oldest daughter graduated from college this year, my middle daughter is in college and my youngest daughter just graduated high school and will go to college in the fall.

I don't know about everyone else but I imagine they believe in education as well. Why are you so intent on comparing mainstream society with FLDS?

I'm not so much trying to compare as I am trying to eliminate the negatives. Thank for responding by the way...you are the only one who has. I would think that talking about education would be bring a bigger response than it has, given all the criticism.

Pepper

06-26-2008, 02:22 AM

I agree with you Jolynna. I think everyone agrees with the things you have outlined above.

One of the things I havent felt I could give an opinion on is the "lost boys" I am still reading the various statements on that and trying to discern where the truth lies.

Again, if you would read Carolyn Jessop's book or view Laurie Allen's documentary you would have your answer. I loaned the book to a friend, so I don't have it back yet, but she talks about a wealthy dentist in Salt Lake City who took her family in for awhile. This dentist has a foundation for the benefit of the Lost Boys and gives them food and housing (a half-way house of sorts) until they can get it together. Many have turned to male prostitution and drugs. In Laurie Allen's documentary there are several who are interviewed. Dr. Phil also had a show on them and two were interviewed. I don't know why you think this isn't factual. There is plenty of evidence.

Glow

06-26-2008, 02:25 AM

Hi Pepper,

When you have time go back and read my link about the "dentist."

Pepper

06-26-2008, 02:27 AM

Good grief I am actually qouting my own post - I was too lazy to retype :doh:

A lot of concern has been expressed over the education that the young women get in the FLDS. I was wanting to pose the same question again. Logically, if we are going to fault these women for not getting a good education, then we on the outside are availing ourselves of that I assume. I would really like to hear whatanyone thinks on that topic.

Again, you are missing the point! NO ONE IS FAULTING THE WOMEN FOR NOT GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION. We are faulting the FLDS MALE LEADERSHIP for not allowing women a public education that includes high school and college IF THEY CHOOSE TO GO TO COLLEGE.

AND NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED! Some of us are and some are not. So what's your point?
:bang:

SewingDeb

06-26-2008, 02:37 AM

Amen Pepper! No one is faulting the FLDS women for their lack of higher education. That is certainly not their fault.

SewingDeb

06-26-2008, 02:38 AM

And, I might add, those outside the FLDS compound at least have a chance to continue our education (and not just in school).

Glow

06-26-2008, 02:43 AM

Again, if you would read Carolyn Jessop's book or view Laurie Allen's documentary you would have your answer. I loaned the book to a friend, so I don't have it back yet, but she talks about a wealthy dentist in Salt Lake City who took her family in for awhile. This dentist has a foundation for the benefit of the Lost Boys and gives them food and housing (a half-way house of sorts) until they can get it together. Many have turned to male prostitution and drugs. In Laurie Allen's documentary there are several who are interviewed. Dr. Phil also had a show on them and two were interviewed. I don't know why you think this isn't factual. There is plenty of evidence.

I posted above, please go back and read my links about this "wealthy dentist"

thanks Pepper.

Glow

06-26-2008, 11:46 AM

Again, you are missing the point! NO ONE IS FAULTING THE WOMEN FOR NOT GETTING A GOOD EDUCATION. We are faulting the FLDS MALE LEADERSHIP for not allowing women a public education that includes high school and college IF THEY CHOOSE TO GO TO COLLEGE.

AND NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE COLLEGE EDUCATED! Some of us are and some are not. So what's your point?
:bang:

My point is that most mainstream women do not avail themselves of the opportunity to go to college either. How many women among us have a college education? In one of the FLDS towns 1/3 of the paramedics are FLDS women. That requires going to college. Also, the Amish dont stress a higher education for their girls either and no one decry's that. No one is saying "what about their right to chose" That is only said about the FLDS.

For American women in general, the idea of going to college is just beginning to grow. Just in the last decade. We all know that the FLDS are trying to live a lifestyle that goes back 100 years or more. Their educational system is consistant with the rest of their lifestyle.

A generation ago, it was expected that most middle-class boys would go on to college after high school and land high-paying, white-collar jobs after that. Women were presumed to be headed for a life of homemaking or low-paid administrative or service labor.

sound like the FLDS? It isnt. This is an article about mainstream American women

http://education-portal.com/articles/Leaving_Men_Behind:_Women_Go_to_College_in_Ever-Greater_Numbers.html

There have been some interesting studies done that show a correlation between women taking on administrative positions formally held by men and increased rates of disease. Diseases formally seen as more "men's" diseases. Heart disease for one. It appears that the more women move up the career ladder, the more the stress begins to get to them physically. We will have to wait and see if those correlations prove correct, but in the meantime why encourage other cultures within us to do something that we dont know is actually "better" in the long run. We dont know at this point if highly educating our daughters and pushing them out into corporate America to use those degrees is the course to a life time of health and happiness.

Until we know that we have something better to offer, why criticize?

Pepper

06-26-2008, 11:57 AM

I posted above, please go back and read my links about this "wealthy dentist"

thanks Pepper.

I did and I think your sources are biased.

First of all FLDS people lie. That is a given. That is how they were taught, and it's a part of their belief system. You simply cannot trust an FLDS person to tell the truth.

Secondly even former FLDS can't always be believed. Some are "former" because the leadership decided the person wasn't worthy. But that doesn't automatically mean that the ex-communicated person renounced the belief, only that the leadership renounced that person. And just because a person either voluntarily chooses to leave FLDS or if that person is kicked to the curb by FLDS elders does not mean that the former FLDS will renounce the religion. They may continue to defend it, because to deny it would mean that they would have to admit to themselves and others that it was a "false" religion and they were duped. That's hard for the egos of many people, especially men. I've read alot on the subject, and I've seen former FLDS (especially men) continue to defend the beliefs of the religion and the propaganda of the leaders.

SewingDeb

06-26-2008, 01:11 PM

SewingDeb

06-26-2008, 01:14 PM

SewingDeb

06-26-2008, 01:19 PM

Pepper, some choose to believe only the FLDS not withstanding all the books and interviews with former FLDS members. I guess we can't get past that on this thread.

Pepper

06-26-2008, 01:31 PM

Glow, you said:

Amish dont stress a higher education for their girls either and no one decry's that. No one is saying "what about their right to chose" That is only said about the FLDS.

That's because this thread is about the FLDS and not the Amish. To my knowlege the Amish are not forcing marriage on very young girls so scrutiny is not on them.

FWIW I have written plenty on the Amish, child abuse (physical and sexual), and their lack of independent higher education for both sexes right here on Websleuths. There are some similarities between the two groups, but the Amish do not force marriage on underage girls, do not practice polygamy, and allow their young freedom of choice, both in their selection of a spouse, but also in their decision to remain in the religion. But SewingDeb is right. This discussion is about the FLDS.

Glow

06-26-2008, 02:33 PM

FWIW I have written plenty on the Amish, child abuse (physical and sexual), and their lack of independent higher education for both sexes right here on Websleuths. There are some similarities between the two groups, but the Amish do not force marriage on underage girls, do not practice polygamy, and allow their young freedom of choice, both in their selection of a spouse, but also in their decision to remain in the religion. But SewingDeb is right. This discussion is about the FLDS.

Yes, the discussion is about the FLDS. I merely mentioned the Amish as a point of reference. In the same vein, a few pages back I mentioned another group, the Catholics and how just 50 years ago a girls duty was to grow up and marry a nice Catholic guy and produce as many children as possible....

again, just a point of reference.

I didnt know that you had written about the Amish Pepper. Im sorry that I missed that as I would have loved to hear your thoughts. Was that back when the shootings took place?

Glow

06-26-2008, 02:53 PM

Glow,

Do you think it is better for women not to be highly educated? With the divorce rate in this country, I want my daughters to have careers and never have to depend on a husband who will be there one day and maybe gone the next.

As soon as my oldest daughter graduated this year, she was given a position on first shift with twice the pay at the firm she works for. Financial security is important.

Sure there is stress in any job but having a job with lower pay and maybe several children to take care of and questionable child support...isn't that stressful too?

I think that we agree 100% SewingDeb. I was relentless in getting my daughter to do just what you said for the very same reason. She did end up divorced and was able to open her own business - thanks to going to school.

My point about women and careers was more of an observation on an anthropological level. If we zoom out and look at the very big picture, I am not sure that we as women are "better off" then we were 50 years ago, or even 100. The right to vote was definitely a biggie but other than that? Divorce rates are soaring, spousal abuse, child abuse you name it. Kids are all in institutionalized settings during the day instead of home with relatives.
The number of prescriptions written for anti anxiety medications keeps going up and up and many people (especially women ) feel over worked, stressed and exhausted.

I am not so sure that the presumption that life is "better" now is correct. Especially not in terms of our health and emotions. It is different but is it better? That is what we wont know until more time has passed. I would not want to encourage a woman that has no mortgage, time to garden, extremely low rate of divorce and young children to give that up for the rat race of modern America. Why?

I just dont feel that we have all the answers as to the best way to live. Maybe our way is doing more damage to the family unit (the basic building block of society) than we know at this time.

Glow

06-26-2008, 02:58 PM

Pepper, some choose to believe only the FLDS not withstanding all the books and interviews with former FLDS members. I guess we can't get past that on this thread.

Hi SewingDeb, I saw that this post was directed to Pepper but if by the word some you meant me I just wanted to say that the man I quoted on the lost boys is FORMER FLDS. He is not FLDS anymore.

Glow

06-26-2008, 03:04 PM

I did and I think your sources are biased.

I agree. All sources are biased. That is why we have to look at each thing from every angle.

My original statement on the lost boys was I DO NOT believe the FLDS on this topic.

My reason was that simple math seems to indicate to me that clustering females with one male would lead to too many extra single males.

That seems like common sense to me. I now need to test my personal feelings against the facts that are out there in order to see if my personal opinion lines up with reality. If it does, fine.

If it does not then I need to adjust my opinion to fit the facts.

That is what I am attempting to do and I am bringing what I find here so that others may do the same for themselves if they would like.

Glow

06-27-2008, 12:31 AM

I have been reading a lot pro/con on the "lost boys". One thing overall is apparent. These young men dont have some of the coping skills that mainstream boys have. They are the kind of life skills that wouldn't have been necessary within the FDLS environment.

I know that even in mainstream American churches, the teen years can be hard with boys. That is when you see the big plunge in membership. And that is even though most churches tolerate the piercing the tattoos and turn a blind eye to engaging in sex and drinking. It is a dont ask dont tell policy and the churches CERTAINLY dont excommunicate for this. There are always girls who grow away from the church in this age group, but the number of boys seems higher.

The FLDS do practice excommunication or shunning of erring members AND they have a standard that would be almost impossible to live up to if you are a young person, especially a young man.

I really liked reading about Elaine Tyler. She runs the HOPE organization.

quote
"She has become known as the woman you go to if you need a place to stay, some clothes, diapers for your kids or money to keep your power from getting shut off at the end of the month. Her group has provided help for dozens of women, children and the so-called "Lost Boys" who have either fled or been kicked out of the polygamous communities of Hildale and Colorado City."

(interesting that they said the so called Lost Boys)

Some of them make DO have a rebel spirit apparently as she has helped them with legal run ins with the law...

quote
"For the ones who get in trouble with the law, Tyler has persuaded the Washington County attorney to ask judges to enroll them in life skills classes and Job Corps instead of sentencing them to jail.
"I'm totally receptive to this idea," Washington County Attorney Brock Belnap said last month. "I'd like to see them gain the sort of skills that can help them succeed with jobs, education and in their personal lives."

What I most liked about this woman and her group is what she has been able to accomplish with her non judgmental attitude.

A powerful polygamist group, Principle Voices praises HOPES efforts. As well another polygamist group, The Centennial Park Action Committee.

The coordinator of the Utah Attorney General's Safety Net Committee also praises her. This group was created to build bridges and deal with abuse within polygamous communities.

Here is what I mean by her non judgmental attitude,

quote
"We are not anti-polygamy at all. We are not going to debate the pros and cons of polygamy. We just help the people in that community because we feel like it's been underserved," she said. "I don't care if they practice polygamy or not, that's their decision. I don't think they've been treated well, and I think that's wrong."

So shes got the state and polygamist as well as non polygamist groups all supporting her. And shes getting things done.

I am impressed.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20060528/ai_n16434994/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

SewingDeb

06-27-2008, 11:28 AM

I am impressed too. I have to say that, for myself, polygamy is not the issue and never was. I don't care if consenting ADULTS enter into polygamous marriages. That is their choice. In the FLDS, it is very different and that is the crux of the problem they are facing now.

Glow

06-27-2008, 11:47 AM

Yes I agree with you. The under aged marriage is the big thing and they have stated that will change. So we will see. The polygamy would be an issue for me if they as a religion expected me as a tax payer to support the children created by "single' moms. It is well known now that the YFZ had NO welfare moms and took no government support from the state of Texas.

Glow

06-27-2008, 11:56 AM

CPS actions damaged children

The arrogant statements of workers who conducted the raid, claiming that only they speak for the children, indicate they've learned nothing from the harm they've inflicted. They may not stop until they've destroyed these children in order to save them.

One need only read the accounts of the only neutral eyewitnesses during the children's first days in captivity, mental health professionals sent in by the state, to understand the harm.

The observations are supported by research. A major national study of foster care "alumni" found they had twice the level of post-traumatic stress disorder of Gulf War veterans and only 20 percent could be said to be doing well.

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/23/cps-actions-damaged-children/

SewingDeb

06-27-2008, 11:56 AM

Yes, we will see if that changes because CPS will stay on this case.

Since the welfare moms in the other FLDS communities put their money in one big pool, there probably was no big need for the El Dorado parents to ask for state financial help. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the El Dorado parents were still getting welfare from the states they came from.

SewingDeb

06-27-2008, 11:58 AM

Glow

06-27-2008, 12:07 PM

At the various blogs and websites I am sifting through I find some quotes and snippets of thought that I have never seen before. Such as -

John Adams, defending the British soldiers accused of murder in the Boston Massacre, told the jury, "Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictums of our passions, they cannot alter the state of the facts and evidence."

Six years before the American Revolution, William Pitt proclaimed in Parliament, "Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it." As a subject of King George, how well he knew.

"As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."
-Adolph Hitler

“Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal”
– Martin Luther King Jr.

Glow

06-27-2008, 12:17 PM

Being taken from the only home they know would be traumatic for any child. That's not surprising at all. In this case, they allowed mothers to accompany their children which is totally unheard of when CPS removes children from their homes. I think that was one good thing they did in Texas if they saw the need to remove the children.

I understand what you are saying SewingDeb. The more I read about CPS the more I see that they are in as much need of change (or more) that the FLDS are!

To me the part above that I bolded reads like this, (in my head)

"while committing a highly unconstitutional act against American citizens, CPS allowed the mothers to be taken hostage as well."

but enough of me editing!

here is a link that says it better -

"...one-third of the children were abused in foster care - other studies show similar results. The record of institutions is worse, and most of the ranch children were institutionalized. The hideous record of Texas institutions, in particular, was documented in two scathing reports from former State Comptroller Carole Keeton Strayhorn. Indeed, had the leaders of the YFZ Ranch really wanted to abuse children with impunity, they should have labeled their compound a residential treatment center, which would guarantee that CPS would turn a blind eye to anything happening there. All this means that had this dragged on long enough, at least 100 children who never were abused on the YFZ Ranch probably would have been abused in Texas foster care.

Another study of 15,000 children found that children placed in foster care consistently fared worse than comparably maltreated children left in their own homes. Foster children were more likely arrested as juveniles, more likely to be unemployed, and more likely to become pregnant as teenagers.

http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/23/cps-actions-damaged-children/

SewingDeb

06-27-2008, 12:27 PM

I do agree that CPS needs investigating...all over this country, not just in Texas.

Glow

06-27-2008, 12:38 PM

Yes. I live in one of the states where they are notoriously out of control.

And no - I've never had any dealings with them personally! LOL :crazy:

SewingDeb

06-27-2008, 12:47 PM

Me neither and hope I never do!

Glow

06-27-2008, 02:28 PM

This sounds cautiously optomistic.

FLDS to join coalition?

For several years now, representatives of the major polygamous groups in Utah and Arizona have met annually, and more regularly in recent months because of current events, as the Principle Voices Coalition.

The coalition has representatives from the Davis County Cooperative Society (Kingstons), the Apostolic United Brethren, The Work of Jesus Christ (Centennial Park), the Nielsen/Naylor group, and independent Fundamentalist Mormons. The communities have been able to come together despite their competing claims to authority and differing practices.

Two groups have not participated in the coalition in the past: the FLDS and the True and Living Church of Saints of the Latter Days (based in Manti, Utah).

But last week, FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop met with several members of the coalition in Salt Lake City, signaling what appears to be a change in course.

The coalition has organized press conferences, public rallies and serves as a primary conduit for media information. It also works with the Utah Safety Net in providing outreach to polygamous communities, helping to educate them about state laws, abuse issues and working with the media, all of which the FLDS could use some help with right now.

Mary Batchelor, the co-founder of Principle Voices, told me the first meeting went well. Jessop said the same thing. Heidi Mattingly Foster, of the Kingstons, also was there.

But I would expect the effort to bring the FLDS into the fold to move slowly for a couple reasons.

There is a deep rift between the FLDS and the Centennial Park group, whose members parted ways with the FLDS back in the mid-1980s largely over leadership issues.

Will each side be willing to come to the table now, despite their different philosophies?

And the AUB has been more outspoken than other polygamous groups in trying to distinguish itself from the FLDS.

No one from Centennial Park or the AUB was at the initial meeting. So we'll see.

Meanwhile, Mary Batchelor and Heidi Foster have been invited by Jessop to come to Texas this week to tour the ranch and meet members of the community.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Glow

06-27-2008, 02:34 PM

Head of agency that removed children from sect retiring :clap:

The head of the state agency that removed more than 400 children from a West Texas polygamist sect is retiring.

Carey Cockerell, commissioner of the Department of Family and Protective Services, will leave his post on Aug. 31. He joined the agency in January 2005

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5860069.html

Ciara

06-27-2008, 02:39 PM

Even if they do stop the underage marriages ...these girls are still going to have no choice in who they marry when they marry them, the men will still be old enough to be their fathers and they will still be too young morally to be married.:mad:

SewingDeb

06-27-2008, 02:50 PM

I'm afraid you're right Clara.

Glow

06-27-2008, 04:20 PM

No indictments were issued yesterday by the

Grand Jury.

A few weeks ago Walthers swore in another Grand Jury. She entered the Courthouse to swear in the GJ at about 12:30 in the afternoon and left in an hour:

By the end of the day, 18 indictments had been issued, although no details were immediately available. The number was more than the usual; typically, five to 15 indictments are returned, a court clerk said.

If you go to the link, that story indicates some of them 'may' have been related to the FLDS, but it turned out none of them were. So at the beginning of the month a GJ which didn't even convene until after lunch issued 18 indictments by the end of the day, and the GJ which met yesterday and heard testimony all day long hasn't been so hasty.
Thats good, they need to slow down and get accurate information.

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9456349

SewingDeb

06-27-2008, 05:11 PM

Many times it is months before the grand jury hears all the evidence and brings an indictment.

Glow

06-27-2008, 07:30 PM

Texas Harming FLDS Children, Utah Group Says

Texas authorities' attempts to save children from being abused at the YFZ Ranch are doing much more harm than good for the 437 children they removed from the FLDS Church property, a Utah child welfare advocacy group said Monday.

A byproduct of actions by child protective services in Texas is exposing children to a special kind of trauma, fear and mistrust that they are likely to have not known were it not for the raid at the compound, said Bonnie L. Peters, executive director of The Family Support Center.

While well-meaning, removing the children and keeping them sequestered "is not in the best interest of the children and will have devastating effects on their mental health," she said, starting with the heavily armed Texas law enforcement officers who arrived at the ranch of the Fundamentalist LDS Church in SWAT gear. "The children, no doubt, suffered extreme psychological abuse at the hands of the people who were seeing themselves as rescuers."

"I hope CPS is simply clueless about child development and the enormous trauma they are inflicting needlessly on these children by keeping them away from their mothers," he said, "because any other explanation would be even worse."

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695272632,00.html

Glow

06-28-2008, 02:19 AM

Texas CPS flash: Malonis refused to testify to grand jury!
by Kurt Schulzke

The court-appointed lawyer for a 16-year-old member of the Fundamentalist LDS Church refused to testify before a grand jury investigating crimes within the polygamous sect.

“I asserted my attorney-client privilege,” Natalie Malonis told the Deseret News on Thursday.

Whoa! Malonis: “I asserted my attorney-client privilege”?? The privilege belongs to the client, not the attorney. Who does Malonis think she is? The attorney or the client? Is this a Des News typo? Or is this really what Malonis said?

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700238199,00.html

Glow

06-28-2008, 08:03 PM

Attitudes about polygamy and the raid on the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch have shifted, a new poll shows.

The Deseret News/KSL-TV poll now finds that half of Utahns disagree with the decision by Texas authorities to take all of the children from the polygamous sect's property near Eldorado.

According to the poll conducted by Dan Jones & Associates, 33 percent strongly disagree with the decision to take the children and put them in state custody, and 17 percent somewhat disagree. On the other side, 22 percent strongly agree with Texas authorities, while 20 percent somewhat agree. Eight percent answered they did not know.

When a similar poll was conducted just days after the April 3 raid on the YFZ Ranch, a majority of Utahns felt authorities were justified in removing the children.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?index=0&parentid=9

Glow

06-28-2008, 08:23 PM

A Texan on why Texans should be proud of Texas.

Texas lawyers stepped up for FLDS childrenClaude Ducloux, LOCAL CONTRIBUTOR
Wednesday, June 11, 2008

Every now and then, an important news story reminds us how easy it is to slip back to the mentality of Salem and the politics of guilt by association. When this happens, we should note how well the legal profession responds to the call.

The mothers at the FLDS ranch were "easy pickins." They dressed funny, and their hairstyles brought giggles on the "Today" show. But their stunned looks of grief at the loss of their children touched a raw nerve inside every loving parent. And in the days that followed, more and more people were troubled by the continuing news reports that contained ... nothing new. But the gossip was lurid, a situation ripe for hysteria. But, thankfully, calm prevailed, primarily because of the lawyers and judges who refused to accept disaster as a given.

As a society, we make laws to serve and protect our citizens. At our best, we reflect man's highest moral aspirations: equal protection, individual rights and personal security. The framers decided centuries ago that we would not regulate society in a way that infringes on people's religious beliefs. But how do you balance a religious belief which conflicts with our duty to protect the young and vulnerable?

In Schleicher County, authorities had long worried about the possibility of sexual abuse of minor female children, under the guise of a religion that countenances polygamy and spiritual marriage. Finally, when an anonymous (and unconfirmed) report arrived from an alleged 16-year-old describing sexual and emotional abuse, Child Protective Services moved in and removed more than 450 minor children from their parents to "protect" them.

Many were stunned when hundreds of lawyers, including some from far-off cities, left their practices without hope of compensation, and came to the aid of these children, working for free and paying their own expenses to assist in a legal nightmare.

Texans should be proud of the incredible response by the legal profession to protect those children and preserve the rule of law. In a situation that portended disaster from the outset, hundreds of attorneys have worked selflessly, diligently and effectively. These attorneys did not know the women or the children involved, but they came to their aid at an important moment in our history, a time when the rule of law is being battered by changing politics.

Certainly, there are many chapters left in this story. But in a time when polemic debates disfavor the poor and unrepresented, the response by Texas attorneys embodies the nobility of this great American profession.

Ducloux, a lawyer, is past president of Austin Bar Association and past chairman of the Texas Bar Foundation.

http://www.statesman.com/search/content/editorial/stories/06/11/0612ducloux_edit.html

Glow

06-28-2008, 09:20 PM

Glow

06-29-2008, 07:42 PM

Its encouraging to see that word is getting out and that this topic is staying on peoples minds. These are the stories that people are reading and e-mailing to others. One reason may be that the AP has finally quit publishing the rhetoric from CPS and started publishing the facts. Three of the top ten spots.

Ten most e-mailed stories from gosanangelo.com:

1. RICK SMITH: Elmer Kelton statue project begins
2. CPS, judge threatened American foundation
3. Coleman 'a unique individual'
4. RICK SMITH: "She gave me my life back."
5. All-West Texas Baseball capsules
6. RICK SMITH: Huge reunion brings family together
7. San Angelo schools name new campus leaders
8. CPS actions damaged children
9. ASU programs thinking bigger
10. Sect case grand jury finishes for the day without issuing indictments

legallee

06-29-2008, 07:43 PM

Constitutionality of Texas Change in Marriage Age – Prior to the FLDS establishing YFZ the State of Texas issued over 800 legal marriage licenses per year for girls under the age of 16 to marry and often to men twice their age.

http://crustylogic.blogspot.com/

doesn't matter....that was PRIOR to new law...

My grandmother married at 14 back in her day but now it's ILLEGAL just as it's ILLEGAL in Texas now....so I don't see your point.:rolleyes:

Glow

06-29-2008, 08:33 PM

My point is laws come and go. They change with the politics and social mores of the times. If we are going to look at the morality of a law, then we have to look at it from both sides and apply things equally.

For example, lets take the laws that apply to drinking. In one state you may find an open container law and also a higher legal blood alcohol limit. In a neighboring state a driver is not allowed even have an open beer in their hand AND the legal limit is lower. So is anyone breaking the law if they follow the law of that state? No they are not. But drive 5 miles over the state line and do the same thing and god forbid have a car wreck while doing it and now you are in serious trouble. Neither one of those states is really addressing the moral issue of what role alcohol and driving play when you mix the two.

The law in the state of Texas was changed because of one man. He was a man with an agenda. State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran. In his own words he said

"I wanted to make it unappealing to them," Hilderbran said. "I hoped they wouldn't stay."

He wanted to amend Texas' marriage laws to protect minors and prevent polygamy, bigamy and interfamily marriage. But the people of Texas (not the FLDS) complained the bill would prevent THEM from marrying their second cousins!

Hilderbran successfully attached the marriage amendments to a Child Protective Services bill that also contained certain family law matters and was less controversial. (The bill received no opposition in committee and passed the House with about 85 percent of the vote.) His amendment raised the minimum marriage age from 14 to 16 and made violation of the law a first-degree felony. It also reaffirmed the state's prohibition of bigamy and polygamy and made clear that ceremonies performed in place of legal marriage would not be exempted.

This was in 2005. No one changed the law because of concern for children. The law was changed because Hilderbran didn't want this particular group around.

So many people have said "good for Texas for changing that law!"

ok

so prior to