The Rest of the Story...

[RainbowsAndGumdrops]

OK, that puts all of the pieces of the puzzle together. Yeah, she needs to step aside as the attorney. Perhaps she is hoping that it will be a big advance in her career, thus the hesitancy to step aside.

[Glow]

I think you are right.

At the very least the court could appoint a new (and hopefully neutral) new ad litem.

The fact that the "court" meaning Judge Walthers, consistently will not modify any of her decisions even in light of new information, is very telling also.

[Glow]

Here is an example of dialog between Teresa and Malonis-

From: Teresa Jeffs
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:39 PM
To: Natalie Malonis
Subject: Re:


Natalie, quit all your lying about everything. You need to realize that I have a mind of my own and I can do things on my own if I choose to. I just want you to realize that I am not putting up with you any longer when you are acting this way and trying to make your name so great, saying to the whole world that you are "protecting Warren Jeffs' daughter". That is nothing great to do because I live in a happy family and I have been happy all my life until you and CPS have been so bothersome and nosy! Let me live a free life...........

Natalie, please don't make this case harder. Shut your mouth up and quit calling me a victim of sexual abuse. I am so sick of being called that when I am absolutely not a victim of sexual abuse and you have no evidence to prove that I have ever had sexual relations. The most help you will be to me now is for you to step aside and let me get a different lawyer that I feel like can help me. Don't feel bad and try to fight so hard to make yourself look like your doing your JOB, so everyone can praise YOU! Thank you.

Now, don't jump to conclusions again, thinking that Willie told me to talk to you like this or told me to stay away from my subpoena. It is my own dear feelings and doings. Right now I am just at home, sitting on my bed. Does it sound like I have dissappeared? To tell you the truth, I havn't tried very hard at all to dodge this subpoena. Of course I am not just going to go running for it! I know how to think for myself, if you can believe it! This is how I feel and I just thought I would let you know.

-Teresa


another -

From: Teresa Jeffs
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:11 PM
To: Natalie Malonis


Natalie, I have just gone over this pleading that you filed yesterday. It is very ashaming to me that you as my attorney would do this. I am continually amazed at how you have been acting lately..............

If I feel like I need protection in one way or another, I will tell someone. I feel like I need protection from you right now! If you can believe such a thing! My attorney is going against my wishes. Maybe you need a restraining order that you can absolutely have nothing to do with me and you have to stay 1000 ft away from me! What do you think of that? I think that would be most wonderful.

Please don't feel bad. I just want to get this straight with you. Now don't think that someone else is typing this note to you. I wish you were standing by me to watch me type it so I can show you proof that this is me all the way. Nobody told me to come and type this. In fact, I haven't showed this restraining order to anyone yet. I am the only one that has seen it. I will show it to my mother as soon as I email this letter to you.

Straighten up your back and realize that you cannot keep playing around with me. With the help of the Lord I will stand for the right, no matter what you or anyone else threatens me with. No one around me that loves me has threatened me that if I don't stand for the right then they will do something to me. Never in my life have I been threatened so much until I had to do with you and CPS.

Well, thank you Natalie for stepping aside. I am expecting it of you. Go live a happy, merry life!
-Teresa Jeffs

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=75

another -

In a later e-mail communication to Malonis, Teresa expresses again her concern that Malonis is attempting to intimidate her and to control her decisions:

You are threatening me so much and those that I love. I am through with you. You are doing to me what you are accusing Willie of doing. I will not put up with you any longer and do not want to ask you for advice at all because I know where it will take me if I do. It will take me down the wrong road which I do not want to do. I feel like you are trying to change my mind of what I want in my life. I am stubborn and I won't change my mind.


so this gives us a glimpse into Teresa's character

so now for a little insight into Malonis style - in her own words...


On June 20, after Teresa had written her letter to Judge Walther requesting a new attorney, Malonis sent to Teresa the following in an e-mail message:

Writing that letter to the Judge was about the most foolish thing you could have done. The Judge is now convinced that you are not able to make good decisions for yourself, and she is convinced also that your mother is not able to make proper decisions for you either Teresa, the Judge wants to take you back in custody and what's worse is that these poor choices may end up with your siblings back in custody if the Judge and CPS think your mother is not able to reign you in. The judge would probably not allow me to withdraw right now even if I requested it because the Judge sees me as the only person who is looking out for what is in your legal interests.




One of the major criticisms of the FLDS women and children is that they are brainwashed and unable to think for themselves. Yet when Malonis encounters a young lady who does think for herself and has the determination to stand by her decisions, she threatens her that if she continues in such a course both she and her brothers and sisters will be returned to CPS custody. Obviously Malonis wants Teresa to make her own decisions only when they are the ones that she and Judge Walther want her to make, and she is quite willing to use threats and intimidation to achieve this result.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=79

What kind of a lawyer does this? If you took the names and particulars out of the above and asked someone to gauge the maturity level of the writer...Teresa sounds more mature in her thinking than Malonis.

[yolorado]

I think you are right.

At the very least the court could appoint a new (and hopefully neutral) new ad litem.

The fact that the "court" meaning Judge Walthers, consistently will not modify any of her decisions even in light of new information, is very telling also.

When I read these Donald Richter articles which often seem crafted to smear anyone who comes against the FLDS, I begin to see why someone might fear contradicting these FLDS folks--as many ex-members warn is dangerous to do. 'Appostates,' as well as other perceived enemies of the FDLS realm, have been depicted by Richter (and other FLDS defenders) as lying profligates, but I think his own approach gives much truth to their accusations. I have no idea what the facts of Malonis' life are, but it seems to me that she truly was acting in the best interest of her client, the child Teressa, who it does appear was indeed married by her own father one day after her 14th birthday to a 30 something year old man, with her mother apparently present and encouraging the union. Malonis was apparently privy to this information somehow, probably because Teresa, or Annette, conveyed it to her in some 'weak' moment of theirs. Under the circumstances, seeking to keep Teresa away from her father and her 'husband' seems entirely rational to me and very much in the best interests of Teresa, whether she thinks so or not, which is the role of an ad-leitem. Personally, I don't think she went far enough. I think she might have gotten a restraining order against Annette as well if the 'good mother' was present and allowed it to happen.

When I read the Richter question, (paraphrasing) Who would want a woman like Malonis for a lawyer?, the first thought that popped into my head was, "Who would want a law-breaking, justice-dodging, wife-abusing, child-abusing peophile for a prophet?" That would be YOUR PEOPLE, Donald. Perhaps people who live in glass rustic log cabins shouldn't throw so many stones!

For those of you who want to see what Donald thinks of those opposing the FLDS, there are a lot of chances at the link below. Odd though, for some reason, he never seems to go after Jeffs, or the people who would follow such a man like, for example, the celebrants, witnesses and photographers at those weddings to 12 year-olds.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/

Edited to say-- The actual headline question is "Natalie Malonis-Would You Let This Woman Represent Your Daughter?"

To which I'd personally reply, 'Maybe not, but Warren Jeffs-would you let this man marry your daughter?!

[Glow]

I don't care how well an article is "crafted"

If I were that easily swayed I would have been totally roped in by the CPS "crafted"


"they have "Sarah" a young woman being beaten crying out for help on a cell phone"

"while they rape virgins in the temple"


"next to the mass graves of babies"

"the ones that aren't full of broken bones"

or my favorite -

"30 or more pregnant under aged girls!"

But I dont go for "crafted" I look for the facts.

The facts about Natalie Malonis are documented by court records and witnesses.

Unlike the "crafted" CPS stories I mentioned above.

Those fell apart upon examination of the facts.

The facts-

no "sarah"

no rapes in the temple

3 graves - all accounted for as natural causes

less broken bones than the statistical average and lets dont forget the FLDS child who got a broken bone while in CPS custody.

No pregnant girls unless you count backward and as long as you only look back 3 years....go any furthur than that and you see the State of Texas okaying the age of 14 and over.

Facts, gotta love em.

[Ciara]

When I read these Donald Richter articles which often seem crafted to smear anyone who comes against the FLDS, I begin to see why someone might fear contradicting these FLDS folks--as many ex-members warn is dangerous to do. 'Appostates,' as well as other perceived enemies of the FDLS realm, have been depicted by Richter (and other FLDS defenders) as lying profligates, but I think his own approach gives much truth to their accusations. I have no idea what the facts of Malonis' life are, but it seems to me that she truly was acting in the best interest of her client, the child Teressa, who it does appear was indeed married by her own father one day after her 14th birthday to a 30 something year old man, with her mother apparently present and encouraging the union. Malonis was apparently privy to this information somehow, probably because Teresa, or Annette, conveyed it to her in some 'weak' moment of theirs. Under the circumstances, seeking to keep Teresa away from her father and her 'husband' seems entirely rational to me and very much in the best interests of Teresa, whether she thinks so or not, which is the role of an ad-leitem. Personally, I don't think she went far enough. I think she might have gotten a restraining order against Annette as well if the 'good mother' was present and allowed it to happen.

When I read the Richter question, (paraphrasing) Who would want a woman like Malonis for a lawyer?, the first thought that popped into my head was, "Who would want a law-breaking, justice-dodging, wife-abusing, child-abusing peophile for a prophet?" That would be YOUR PEOPLE, Donald. Perhaps people who live in glass rustic log cabins shouldn't throw so many stones!

For those of you who want to see what Donald thinks of those opposing the FLDS, there are a lot of chances at the link below. Odd though, for some reason, he never seems to go after Jeffs, or the people who would follow such a man like, for example, the celebrants, witnesses and photographers at those weddings to 12 year-olds.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/

Edited to say-- The actual headline question is "Natalie Malonis-Would You Let This Woman Represent Your Daughter?"

To which I'd personally reply, 'Maybe not, but Warren Jeffs-would you let this man marry your daughter?!

I have to say I totally agree with this post:clap:

Oh and Thanks Glow for all these links you provide. I read them all:)

[Glow]

Oh and Thanks Glow for all these links you provide. I read them all:)

Your welcome Ciara. Im glad you read the links. I think at this point reading everything we can is our best resource for finding the facts.

[Glow]

INQUISITION ON THE HILL, THE TRUTH ON THE INTERNET
by Bill

Harry Reid’s dog and pony show begins this morning on Capital Hill, and all the scam artists, lairs and paid professional “Victims” will be there to tell the Judiciary only what they want to hear about the FLDS and skip over the rights of the accused to be heard. Nobody from within the FLDS who knows the truth will be allowed to speak. So much for the Due Process myth.

Voices will be heard, and they will be heard at 3:00 EASTERN time on RIGHT TALK, an internet talk show where the Government does not have the power to suppress the truth as well as it would like.

I have been told by many people that they heard me talk before on radio, and some even liked what I had to say. I Thank those people for their kindness, but it simply wasn’t me, I have not been on any radio shows in my life before today.

This afternoon, Headmistress from “The Common Room”, Kurt Schutzke from “I Perceive” and I will be the guests for an hour to discuss the attack on the Ranch, Texas foster care, CPS’s quest for Federal dollars, the abuse of children in their “Care” and the un Constitutional attack on Mormons by people whose only agenda is to complete their genocidal pogrom against their neighbors.

I have promised to behave myself and not rip certain folks to shreds, but I cannot promise to “Keep sweet” because of the haunting images in my mind of the children these jackals were fully ready to destroy. I leave it to the good parents on the Ranch, in almost every State in the Union and in the mountains of Canada to forgive their enemies, but I am not FLDS, and I fight fire with fire.

I strongly believe in “Do unto other’s” and I’ve seen how they want to “Do” the FLDS into extinction. IT AIN”T GONNA HAPPEN HARRY!

The Name of the show is RIGHT TALK, and the call in number is toll free at: 1-866-884-8255

http://www.rightalk.com/rightalk.asx

The petiton to ask the Senate to give the FLDS a voice in todays “Hearings” now has over 1,100 signatures of all those who would be affected by the decisions made at the “Hearing”, and that includes the children. I have been asked why we allow the children to sign the petition. My answer is simple; The petition is about their future. On this 161st Anniversary of their ancestors reaching the Salt Lake Valley, they are no closer to religious freedom than they were when Brother Brigham arrived, but still they keep the Prophets above the apostates in their daily lives. Who better deserves to sign their own destiny?

In so far as the goons quest for the 5 men named in the indictments:
Instead of hiding in bushes and cars, wouldn’t it be so much easier to name the men and have them freely walk into your arms knowing they are innocent, or do you have another agenda in the works?
http://www.flds.ws/

[yolorado]

To me, if there is FACTUAL evidence, or if one has good reason to believe, that a man married off his barely 15 year old daughter to a 35 year-old man the same night he, himself, married a 11-13 year old child, there should be a court order prohibiting him and the 35 year-old man from contact with that child. Malonis sought that court ordered protection for her client. I see no fault in that.

No Sarah, but there is a Teresa. There's probably a daughter of Wendell Neilson and another wife of Raymond. And there is apparently also one or more 11-13 year-old daughter(s) of Merrill Jessop. TX may have also discovered a few others too. Personally, I'm glad we found them. Maybe we can help them and prevent other abuse by knowing about them. Their existance exposes a problem and gives truth to many of those pesky 'apostates' accustions, those accusations the FLDS have said are the lies of profligates out to get them.

CPS had to go in if they believed the calls by 'Sarah' to be genuine (and there are no facts to prove they did not.)

Rapes in the temple, who knows? That may or may not come up later on in court. It would be icky, but not a major deal. These people were marrying too young teens. THAT is the issue. It seems (although hasn't been yet proven in court) to be a FACT.

Graves? Who cares? As long as everyone had a death certificate, I don't see what the problem is. They did have death associated death certificates, right?

Broken bones, that seems to have been nothing. But that was basically just grist for Nancy Grace anyway.

What facts can be proven in court, who knows? But, I'm betting the FLDS ain't going to love "them facts."

[Ciara]

Your welcome Ciara. Im glad you read the links. I think at this point reading everything we can is our best resource for finding the facts.

I'll second that Glow. We do need to read everything:)

[Glow]

To me, if there is FACTUAL evidence, or if one has good reason to believe, that a man married off his barely 15 year old daughter to a 35 year-old man the same night he, himself, married a 11-13 year old child, there should be a court order prohibiting him and the 35 year-old man from contact with that child. Malonis sought that court ordered protection for her client. I see no fault in that.

Me either. But the restraining order isnt for either of those men. It was for Willie Jessop. They didnt want him to as they put it "threaten" her.


No Sarah, but there is a Teresa. There's probably a daughter of Wendell Neilson and another wife of Raymond. And there is apparently also one or more 11-13 year-old daughter(s) of Merrill Jessop. TX may have also discovered a few others too. Personally, I'm glad we found them. Maybe we can help them and prevent other abuse by knowing about them. Their existance exposes a problem and gives truth to many of those pesky 'apostates' accustions, those accusations the FLDS have said are the lies of profligates out to get them.

What are your thoughts on the fact that "we" also found Billy Dan Carroll, the CPS worker who raped over 20 girls some as young as 8?


CPS had to go in if they believed the calls by 'Sarah' to be genuine (and there are no facts to prove they did not.)

1) She was calling from out of state

2) They waited 3 days after getting her distress calls to go in. A lot went on during that 3 days, no?


Rapes in the temple, who knows? That may or may not come up later on in court. It would be icky, but not a major deal.

Either you have just cut yourself out of the group thinking that predominated threads #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 and #6 in this forum or you were a cool headed thinker all along. Either way, I appreciate and respect what you are saying.


These people were marrying too young teens. THAT is the issue. It seems (although hasn't been yet proven in court) to be a FACT.

YES! A fact! They should have kept up when Texas said 14 wasnt ok anymore!

Graves? Who cares?

Again I am impressed with your cool head on this.

As long as everyone had a death certificate, I don't see what the problem is. They did have death associated death certificates, right?

I dont know what they had but they had enough to make CPS and the state back off and view it as legit. One grave was a toddler that died in a car accident. One was a woman who died of breast cancer. One was an old woman. (I think going on memory - maybe someone else will know)

Broken bones, that seems to have been nothing. But that was basically just grist for Nancy Grace anyway.

I completey agree that it was.

What facts can be proven in court, who knows? But, I'm betting the FLDS ain't going to love "them facts."

Well we will have to see how it all plays out. With Billy Dan Carroll, we have a clear cut case of a 53 yr old man having sex with an 8 year old little girl.
If people were equally concerned about that case I would feel this was really about justice and the well being of children - instead of being about something else entirely

[Glow]

Anyone think we will EVER see the same amount of outrage expressed over this as has been expressed over the FLDS men?

Billy Dan Carroll spent the better part of the past three decades assaulting and raping dozens of victims -- from girls as young as two years of age to adult women whom he lured to his home and then drugged into unconsciousness.

His alleged acts ("alleged" because Mr. Carroll has yet to be convicted of a crime) are reportedly documented on videotapes kept in his possession.

Austin police Sgt. Brian Lloyd, a 22-year veteran child abuse investigator, has rarely seen the like of Mr. Carroll, who he describes as “the worst of the worst….

Several of these children were abused multiple times.”

One six-year-old girl was allegedly raped twenty-three times.

This was done, incidentally, without sending in SWAT operators in paramilitary drag and deploying an APC and sniper teams.


The search warrants and all photographic evidence against Mr. Carroll have been sealed, which is entirely appropriate: It wouldn't be wise to taint the jury pool against the suspect by publicizing salacious (and speculative) details or circulating lurid photographs.




Carroll isn't the only opportunistic sexual predator recently uncovered in the Texas child welfare system.


Roughly a year ago, a 13-year veteran Child Protective Services caseworker named Frederick Shavers was arrested and charged with sexual misconduct involving a 15-year-old girl whom he was supervising. According to police in Grand Prairie, there was "a mountain of evidence" that Shavers began a sexual "relationship" with the young girl -- an unwed teenage mother -- when she was thirteen years of age.


Shavers was 37 years old and married with two children at the time of his arrest.

This means he was 35, and his inamorata was 13, when they began their affair.

Gee golly Ned, it seems to me that Mr. Shavers was doing exactly what the agency that employed him said was happening at the YFZ Ranch. The significant difference here, of course, is that CPS didn't bother to prove any of the things it professed to "know" about the FLDS community -- and Shavers was forced to resign in April before being arrested last June.


Furthermore, it appears that this was not the first time that Shavers had been accused of sexual misconduct and other improprieties. According to the Dallas News, Shavers "has been the subject of several prior CPS inquiries" regarding his conduct.


In 1994, a 12-year-old girl "accused Mr. Shavers of kissing her during horseplay at a pool in Greenville."


Remember, Shavers at the time of his 2007 resignation had been with CPS for thirteen years; that meant that the first allegation of sexual misbehavior came immediately after he was hired by the agency. And his work record ended with allegations of suborning perjury from a child witness.


Shavers supervised an estimated 600 children during his career as a caseworker. His case records are under police scrutiny on the assumption that other children were abused in various ways by the former child-saver.


But CPS, of course, did nothing wrong in keeping Shavers on the payroll for over a decade. Agency spokeswoman Marissa Gonzalez insisted that CPS "handled Mr. Shavers appropriately during his career," observes the News: "I think each of those incidents was handled appropriately."


Let us be clear about an important distinction: There are no due process considerations regarding a job on the public payroll.
It's not necessary to prove an allegation beyond reasonable doubt in order to terminate the employment of a bureaucrat accused of a sexual offense against a child.
Had CPS been genuinely interested in child safety it would have excised Frederick Shavers from their roster in 1994.


But Shavers was given the benefit of every doubt. The same was quite possibly true of Billy Dan Carroll. The innocent FLDS parents, of course, enjoyed no such deference.

[Ciara]

Billy Dan Carroll is scum and I for one am just as outraged by him as I am of the FLDS men. I would show absolutely No Mercy to a sick pervert like that:mad:

An eight year old child and him 53:mad::mad::mad:

[Ciara]

Sen. Reid says Polygamy is a "Form of organised Crime"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,390070,00.html

[Glow]

Sen. Reid says Polygamy is a "Form of organised Crime"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,390070,00.html

I read your links too Ciara! :)


I think Sen Reid is a grandstander (IMO)

But I did like the thinking of the Utah Attorney~


Utah U.S. Attorney Brett Tolman, however, warned against using too blunt an instrument against polygamists, who are reclusive and cloistered. Saying rather than forming a task force to crack the surface of polygamist organizations, "subtle, more covert methods may be properly employed."

Thanks for the link!

[Ciara]

I figured it was about time I stuck one up Glow instead of letting everyone else do all the work:)

[Glow]

Yes, LOL. Get to work girl! :crazy:

[Glow]

Instead of an "aggressive effort" to apprehend (as the Texas Attorney General recommends) couldnt they just tell the FLDS who they want and let the men step forward?



FLDS Willing to Cooperate with Texas Authorities



On Tuesday, July 22, 2008, the grand jury in Schleicher County, Texas, delivered indictments against Warren S. Jeffs and five unnamed members of the FLDS Church. An indictment is a formal accusation and does not amount to a finding of guilt. The grand jury merely determines if there is enough evidence to require the accused person to stand trial on the alleged offense.

According to an AP article of July 23, “The identities of the Jeffs’ followers who were indicted were not released Tuesday because the indictments remain sealed until authorities can arrest the men.” Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott is quoted as saying, “There will be an aggressive effort to apprehend them.”

We are deeply concerned that this “aggressive effort” not involve another raid by Texas authorities on the YFZ community near Eldorado. The last thing our women and children need is the additional trauma associated with such an action.

When Sheriff Doran and the Texas Rangers arrived at the gate of the YFZ Ranch in April searching for Dale Evans Barlow, our people gave full cooperation, located the man requested, and allowed the sheriff to talk to him on the telephone. The massive military force used to invade the community was entirely uncalled for. As the raid by Arizona authorities in 1953 also attests, the FLDS are a peaceful, nonviolent people.

The same AP article of July 23 quotes FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop as saying, "We're actually quite shocked. As soon as we know who they're looking for, we'll try to face it. We believe in our innocence."

Willie Jessop told the Salt Lake Tribune, "As soon as we know who they are looking for we will make contact with the sheriff's office and make arrangements for those people to appear on the charges."

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?index=0&parentid=1

[Glow]

One of the most alarming things surrounding the FLDS case has been the issue of government and its power.

How much is too much? Who ultimately has control of what goes on in our homes? "

Who decides what is enough - what is too much?

Where are the lines drawn in parenting? Educational choices? Religion?

The U.S. House of Representatives is scheduled to debate two bills that could give the federal government unprecedented control over the way parents raise their children – even providing funds for state workers to come into homes and screen babies for emotional and developmental problems.

The Pre-K Act (HR 3289) and the Education Begins at Home Act (HR 2343) are two bills geared toward military and families who fall below state poverty lines. The measures are said to be a way to prevent child abuse, close the achievement gap in education between poor and minority infants versus middle-class children and evaluate babies younger than 5 for medical conditions."

If you're not in the military or below the poverty line - as determined by the state- maybe this wont interest you.

The ongoing government harassment of the FLDS is where precedents will be set that either hold the line on the Constitution as it reads now, or change where that line is.

Another good reason to pay close attention to what happens with the FLDS.

[Glow]

Some new developments....

First here is a description of a term that appears in the linked article...

Suspending Discovery :

Suspends everything. Stops the process. Covers up the State’s lack of evidence to support probable cause.


and here is the article -

FLDS order: Judge Walther in Texas CPS con game with Charles Childressby Kurt Schulzke

Tonight, Judge Barbara Walther and U. of Texas law prof Charles Childress cackle quietly, together, in her chambers, while big media applaud Walther’s order severing the case of 330 FLDS children into mother-based groups. Meanwhile, other attorneys on the case stare in disbelief at yet another constitutional and ethical violation by Judge Walther and Texas CPS.

It is good that Judge Walther has finally accepted — at least superficially — that individual FLDS families are entitled to separate consideration. However, this order and the process that produced it carry distinctly bad news for the FLDS or for other Americans who believe in due process and the rule of law. Some of the bad news is this:



“Discovery” refers to the process whereby the FLDS parents and children get access to whatever evidence the State may have to justify the continuing presence of CPS in the lives of FLDS families. Ever since the State stole personal records and gather DNA samples back in April, it has refused to share that information with attorneys representing FLDS parents and children. Staying discovery allows the State to continue to stall and pretend is has evidence justifying the State’s refusal to allow the FLDS to return to their homes in Eldorado, Texas.

The worst news is that the entire, unconstitutional case against the 330 children in the order (yes, it is against the children) should have been dismissed, period, and was not. CPS or the Texas Rangers should be required to open new cases, one-by-one on the basis of individualized probable cause which, for most of these people, does not exist.

Why FLDS attorneys did not insist that Walthers hold a hearing on a motion to dismiss is itself worthy of some investigative reporting. I think a game theory dynamic has set in, in which individual attorneys are in a dysfunctional equilibrium, thinking they are best right where they are when, in fact, they are not. I don’t want to call it a prisoner’s dilemma, because unlike the classic prisoner’s dilemma, few or none of the FLDS hostages (they’re still hostages) have likely committed any crime. But equilibrium has set in, preventing individual FLDS attorneys from objecting to Walther’s crimes against the Constitution.

This is a perfect illustration of Justice Harriett O’Neill’s collaborative, therapeutic justice* approach to CPS cases: CPS and the courts working together in blatant disregard of essential constitutional checks and balances. Judge Walther secretly signed the severance order on Thursday, July 24 — while Harry “Wormtongue” Reid distracted the FLDS in Washington — and held it back until just after noon on Friday.

It came as a complete surprise to the AALs representing the FLDS kids. One remarked, off the record, “I bet the press release failed to mention the suspension of discovery or that this was all ex parte with no notice to any of the attorneys.”

Ex parte, for non-lawyers, means in essence, “talking to only one side of the case.” Judges are not supposed to do it. Fundamental to our Constitution is the idea that all parties to a case must be given the right to be there, participating when any other party communicates with the judge. The Texas Code of Judicial Conduct, Canon 3(B)(8), flatly prohibits ex parte communications (see below).

Only Texas CPS knew that Charles G. Childress (one of Harriet O’Neill’s fixers) had delivered a motion to sever the cases and stay discovery. As with Harry Reid, in Washington, no one but the anti-FLDS Texas CPS had any opportunity to be heard on the merits of the CPS motion. Her Honor just signed the order, kids, parents, Constitution and statutes be damned. Her first love is Texas CPS. The order and her excuse for “process” prove it. (Childress, by the way, having trained the AALs against whom he will now litigate, has taken over as lead Texas CPS counsel on the FLDS case.)

The order means that hundreds of children, mothers and fathers will remain in limbo — unable to disprove their guilt (that’s how things work in a CPS case, not just in Texas) — for as long as Judge Walther wants them to be there.

Not for the last time, let me say: Every father and mother in America should be afraid, very afraid. This could just as easily happen to you. And no one would hear you scream because you would be all alone.

If you’re interested in know how Judge Walther is supposed to behave, take a close look at the following excerpts from the Texas Code of Judicial Conduct, with special attention to Canon 3(B), Section 8:

Texas Code of Judicial Conduct

Canon 3(B)

(5) A judge shall perform judicial duties without bias or prejudice.

(6) A judge shall not, in the performance of judicial duties, by words or conduct manifest bias or prejudice, including but not limited to bias or prejudice based upon race, sex, religion, national origin, disability, age, sexual orientation or socioeconomic status, and shall not knowingly permit staff, court officials and others subject to the judge’s direction and control to do so.

(7) A judge shall require lawyers in proceedings before the court to refrain from manifesting, by words or conduct, bias or prejudice based on race, sex, religion, national origin, disability, age, sexual orientation or socioeconomic status against parties, witnesses, counsel or others.This requirement does not preclude legitimate advocacy when any of these factors is an issue in the proceeding.

(8) A judge shall accord to every person who has a legal interest in a proceeding, or that person’s lawyer, the right to be heard according to law. A judge shall not initiate, permit, or consider ex parte communications or other communications made to the judge outside the presence of the parties between the judge and a party, an attorney, a guardian or attorney ad litem, an alternative dispute resolution neutral, or any other court appointee concerning the merits of a pending or impending judicial proceeding. A judge shall require compliance with this subsection by court personnel subject to the judge’s direction and control.


http://iperceive.net/flds-order-judge-walther-in-texas-cps-con-game-with-charles-childress/

[Glow]

Also in the news -

TEXAS ISN’T FINISHED ABUSING THE CHILDREN ON THE RANCH

In a mindless maneuver that had to come from the Governor’s office, 3 Apache Attack helicopters swooped into the Ranch compound in Eldorado Texas, sending children working their gardens and milking cows screaming for shelter believing another attack by armored personnel carriers, snipers with machine guns and swat teams in full dress battle gear were once again coming back to kidnap them.

Coming in low and fast, the aircraft, with guns bristling from every hole and door available, circled feet off the ground as clouds of sand and dirt billowed into the air pelting the children as they ran terrorized by the site and the remembrence of the earlier attack just month’s earlier.

If this is the State of Texas’s idea of how not to abuse children, they are doing as miserable a job of it as CPS did while their victim’s were in their care for 8 weeks beginning on April 3, 2008

It takes a very special breed of people to abuse, terrorize, emotionally and psychologically cripple women and children, but CPS, the Texas Rangers and the local residents appear to have what it takes to be really good at their jobs.

http://www.flds.ws/

[Glow]

DYESS AIR FORCE BASE TAKES JOY RIDE TO RANCH


With nothing better to do for kicks, 3 Apache Attack helicopter crews based out of Dyess Air Force Base took a joy ride Saturday and had nothing better to do than fly at roof top level scattering children already terrorized by Texas Law Enforcement and CPS.

I had thought that all the macho Rambo garbage was taken up between the Rangers and the local Barney Fife’s, but I guess I was wrong. I don’t really understand why grown adults receive such pleasure out of seeing how much harm and pain they can heap on people, especially children, but I guess it must be this “Texas” thing.

Haven’t you done enough to these people? Don’t you have even ONE decent bone in your body? Have you no SHAME!

It’s not credible that this was an “Accident”. That Temple is now one of the most recognized buildings across the United States. In the middle of barren nothingness it sits there visible for miles from the air. These children have been hurt enough, leave them alone

http://www.flds.ws/2008/07/26/dyess-air-force-base-takes-joy-ride-to-ranch/

[Glow]

I havent been able to find a press release on this but apparently the link above this one stated the wrong type of helicopter. Here is his correction.


TEXASS UPSET: “JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS” DECRIED.

Let me begin this post by saying to all those English major’s out there that the headline contains no typo.

Yesterday’s little stunt of terrorizing the children of the Ranch is being met with a great deal of criticism out there from the good old boys. The fact that the appearance of three helicopters hovering mere feet of the grounds of the Ranch directly over the heads of the children who were running in stark fear of yet one more attack on them didn’t bother the good old boys one bit, they never addressed the moronic move. What they are enraged about is my “Jumping to conclusions” about the great State of Texas, and my audacity of blaming them.

I hear no outrage from them about “Jumping to conclusions” concerning the original kidnappings. They sit back now on their barstool’s (There I go again!) and point to 6 indictments as justification for the original hoax attack and the taking of the children . NOT ONE of the original conclusions that the State used for taking the children has born any fruit for them. Are the good old boys “Outraged” at CPS?

Are they outraged at Cockerell’s idiotic conclusion that the “Broken bones “Seen” on the children was indicative of a pattern of abuse? Can we now conclude that since two children who received broken bones while kidnapped indicates a pattern of abuse by the State? Why not?

The good old boys scoff at the term “Tank” when describing the armored personell carrier that rolled against the children. In fact, it’s very existence, no matter what we called it was denied right up until the time the pictures were distributed to the press and they could no longer lie their way out of it.

They are outraged that the choppers were NOT Apache Attack helicopter’s, they were blackhawk helicopter’s. This, in their eyes excuses the incursion.

They are outraged that the choppers did not come from this Air Force Base, they had to come from that Air Force Base. This makes it somehow different to the children’s fear and terror?

Were it not for “Jumping to conclusions”, malfeasance, ignorance, fraud, deceit, greed, incompetence, child abuse and neglect, un Constitutionally depriving people of their rights and kidnapping by the State of Texas, we would not have 465 running away from helicopters, but running towards them as any normal child would do.

Some good old boys are outraged that I will not post opposing comments on this site. I have no problem with any post that contains a legitimate e mail address (Which is not made public). If you have convictions, be man or woman enough to stand behind your comments unless of course if you are ashamed of them and feel the need to hide in anonymity. Y’all may not like what I have to say, but you know exactly who said it, and I stand behind what I have to say with my name out front and center.

The children of the Ranch are no longer “Normal”. The State of Texas made them that way by “Jumping to conclusions.”, so if you want to be outraged, look to that moron of a Judge, CPS, “Sheriff” Doran, and the paid professional victims you were so willing to give credence to.

The atmosphere around the ranch is one of concern, mistrust of the outside world, fear, apprehension and extreme vigilance. Texas made it that way by illegally taking their children from them (Your Supreme Court) If they see a formation of military aircraft bearing down on them and their children, they get understandably upset and sound the alarm to people outside their wall’s that they know will tell the outside world what is really going on, and not the softball pablum that the State spoon feeds to the mainstream media.

If it eases your conscience that they were not State helicopters but Federal, if it eases your conscience that were Blackhawk helicopters instead of Apache, if it eases your conscience that they didn’t come from a particular Air Force Base (Which the Air Force is not discussing), then congratulations, go back to your beer and pat yourselves on the backs.

For our part, we are not going to stand by and watch another Waco develop on that Ranch. If they are threatened as they were yesterday, we’re going to be jumping to a whole lot of conclusions, this I promise you.

NOBODY outside of the parents has told you the truth about what they have gone through and why. My conclusion to that is that you need to go back to the very beginning and read the stories you were told and figure out exactly who jumped to conclusions and how is it going to be fixed to bring Texas back from it’s shame and humiliation for what it has done to these innocent children.

http://www.flds.ws/2008/07/27/texass-upset-jumping-to-conclusions-decried/#comments

[Glow]

Rozita Swinton in Newsweek


Rozita is profiled in Newsweek, and for the first time the press (apart from your Modern Pharisee) wakes up to the cold calculating nature of the instigator of the YFZ raid.
"Yet there's a highly rational and calculating aspect to Swinton's alleged deeds. In the past few years, she has used at least nine cell-phone numbers—many of them prepaid, avoiding the need to register them—to orchestrate her ruses, according to police. And rather than slipping uncontrollably into one character or another, she has seemed to switch between them at will."
I pointed this out early on, saying that she showed calculating behavior by avoiding the camera in the police questioning she went through. I also pointed out the similarities between her mug shot and other calculating child abusers.
"Psychiatrists interviewed by NEWSWEEK say that although they wouldn't rule out multiple-personality disorder—a controversial diagnosis technically known as dissociative identity disorder (DID)—Swinton's behavior doesn't match the usual profile (none of them has personally examined her). 'People with DID typically have intense stories of their own abuse' and don't 'run around reporting on other people's abuse,' says David Spiegel, associate chair of psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Richard Kluft, a clinical professor of psychiatry at Temple University School of Medicine, says it's possible that Swinton suffers from other conditions, like factitious disorder, in which people have a need to be seen as ill and deliberately create symptoms to prove it."
I still strongly suspect the KEY phrases that Rozita keeps using need to be paid attention to. "You're saying I'm lying" she tends to say, or seems amazed that people think she didn't tell the truth, and then protests that it IS the truth, that it's "HER STORY."
Lies always have an anchor in the truth in my experience. Rozita is intent on proclaiming that the stories she tells are TRUE. Someone has fed her these stories or she has read them in case files. She now feels the need to tell them. I think it's important to know where these stories came from. I think Rozita BELIEVES they are true. Another alternative is that she is changing details of the story to mask their origin.
The Newsweek article also identifies Mary Catharine Nelson as her foster parent, but does not touch on the "Reverend" Nelson's connections with the publishing company that she published her books through. The article also uses stock photographs that were supplied by Swinton herself.
There is STILL more to the story, but at least someone looked at her in an unsympathetic way for the first time, in the mainstream media.


http://hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/

[Glow]

Monday, July 28, 2008

Fugitive Five do what's right


In light of the fact that I think the state of Texas is in the wrong, the FLDS Fugitive Five did what was right, they turned themselves in.

The Salt Lake Tribune had been reporting that they could not be found. Since they've turned themselves in, it's now time to know who they are.

The Dallas Morning News.-

"Three of the men — Merril “Leroy” Jessop, 33; Raymond Jessop, 36; and Allan Keate, 56 — face charges of sexual assault of a child and are purported to be “spiritual husbands” of young women who testified before the Schleicher County grand jury last week. A fourth man, Michael Emack, 57, also faces charges of sexual assault of a child. The fifth man, Dr. Lloyd Barlow, 38, faces three misdemeanor counts of failing to report child abuse. He’s purported to be the chief physician at the sect's compound outside Eldorado and is thought to have had information about young mothers there."


I guessed two of them, I should have guessed the Dr. Are we now going to start charging abortion clinic Doctors?

http://hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/

[Glow]

Are we now going to start charging abortion clinic Doctors?






That is of course a rhetorical question. We all know the answer is a big resounding NO.

We dare not take away the rights of thousands of lecherous mainstream men to impregnate girls and get rid of the consequences. Why that would interfere with their "rights"! :eek:


Meanwhile I feel I must be a pest and bring up reality and ask does anyone have any information on the case of Billy Dan Carroll?


I mean, after all, he spent the better part of the past three decades assaulting and raping dozens of victims while in the employ of the State of Texas.

Girls as young as two years of age on up.

Multiple times.

He has yet to be charged.

And he didn't turn himself in :rolleyes:


I'm sure that is just as big of a news item as the FLDS 5 is.


It must be me and my ineptness at finding ALL the links to the active pursuit of the case against
Billy Carroll.

[lisalei321]

I posted this in the links thread as well.

http://www.sltrib.com/Salt%20Lake%20Tribune%20Home%20Page/ci_10027362


Five FLDS men turn themselves in to Texas authorities
By Emily Ramshaw
The Dallas Morning News

Article Last Updated: 07/28/2008 10:09:02 PM MDT


Posted: 10:05 PM- AUSTIN, Texas - Five men from a West Texas polygamous sect wanted on charges ranging from sexual assault of a child to bigamy turned themselves in Monday, Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott announced.
The men are being held at the Schleicher County jail. Those charged with felonies are being held in lieu of $100,000 bail each. Those men face sentences ranging from five years to life in prison.


And I'd like to also state that I have a hard time believing anything on the FLDS website.

[Glow]

Thanks for the link Lisalei!


I appreciate you stating your opinion also. :)

[Glow]

Link to pictures of the men arrested-

http://ydr.inyork.com/portlet/article/html/render_gallery.jsp?articleId=10023591&siteId=515&startImage=1

[Glow]

So what we have -


Warren Jeffs- already in jail, and DA Abbott says he wants him extradited to Texas.

Leroy Jessop, 33 — Sexual Assault of a Child and Felony Bigamy

Raymond Jessop, 36 — Sexual Assault of a Child

Allan Keate, 56 — Sexual Assault of a Child

Michael Emack, 57 — Sexual Assault of a Child

And Barlow on 3 misdemeanors.

[Glow]

So while the ever mindful State of Texas diligently keeps track of underaged FLDS births, I was curious to see how this stacks up with the general population....

How Often Does a Teenager in Texas Get Pregnant?

Every 10 minutes, a teen in Texas gets pregnant.

Every 10 hours, a 14-year-old teen gets pregnant.

Every 3 hours, a 15-year-old teen gets pregnant.

Every 1.5 hours, a 16-year-old teen gets pregnant.

Every 52 minutes, a 17-year-old-teen gets pregnant.

Every 35 minutes, an 18-year-old teen gets pregnant.

Every 28 minutes, a 19-year-old teen gets pregnant.


What are the Outcomes?

Every 10 minutes a teen gives birth.

Every 48 minutes a teen has an abortion

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/famplan/tpp.shtm


hmmm...

[Glow]

Questions & Info -

Warren Jeffs- already in jail, and DA Abbott says he wants him extradited to Texas.

The charges on which he has already been convicted were more indirect. His participation was in authorizing the marriage of an under aged girl to a 19 yr old man.

If Texas can prove the allegation of sexual assault of a child IN the state of Texas, would that be sufficient grounds for expedition?

This current charge is no doubt connected to the cheek swabbing incident involving Veda Keate recently.

She is 19 and has a two year old daughter. Texas authorities believe the child was fathered by Jeffs when she was under the legal age of consent - which is 16 for a legal marriage and 17 for sexual contact when there is an age difference of three years or less.

Jeffs is accused of a sexual assault occurring in Jan of 2005.

The law changed in Texas in - September of 2005. So how does that apply?



Leroy Jessop, 33 — Sexual Assault of a Child and Felony Bigamy

Why is he the only one charged with Bigamy? If this was a "spiritual" marriage only - can the State bring bigamy charges?

Raymond Jessop, 36 — Sexual Assault of a Child

This may not be about Teresa Jeffs, but lets assume for the moment that it is....

She was checked by a gynecologist and found to have an intact hymen. She has not had sexual intercourse. So what did her sexual assault consist of?

She also turned 17 this weekend. Does this have any affect on this case?

Allan Keate, 56 — Sexual Assault of a Child

Merilyn Barrow is 18. Her son is 1- 1/2, that indicates that Barrow was underage when he was born and may lead to criminal charges once the father is identified. Allen is the alleged father.

Merilyn gave birth to her son Robert on Dec. 30, 2006, a week before she turned 17.


Michael Emack, 57 — Sexual Assault of a Child - Don't know anything about this one.

And Barlow on 3 misdemeanors. He is the Doctor.

[Glow]

As far as Barlow and the 3 misdemeanors....

One of TX arguments is that the FLDS create a 'pervasive climate of abuse.' Is there another institution that might compare?
Yes.
Across the nation Planned Parenthood gets away with violating laws on mandatory reporting DAILY.
They have been caught in more than one sting actually counseling girls they believed to be as young as 13 on how to lie so as to avoid getting their adult abuser/boyfriends into trouble. They seldom, if ever, report as required by law when under-aged girls come into their offices and clinics for abortions- proving they have been abused by state law. And does Texas care?

I don't think so. THAT pervasive climate of abuse has the approval of the state- they even get taxpayer funding to carry on their activities of helping adult men hide the evidence of their crimes.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=10775661&postID=8855480955698431820

[Glow]

Arizona judge may remand charges against polygamous leader
The Associated Press
Article Last Updated: 07/29/2008 01:40:29 PM MDT

Posted: 1:38 PM- KINGMAN, Ariz. - An Arizona judge has scheduled an Aug. 22 hearing to decide whether four remaining charges against polygamist leader Warren Jeffs will be sent back to a grand jury for reconsideration.
The charges stem from the arranged marriages of two teenage girls and their older male relatives.
Defense attorney Mike Piccarreta is arguing that Jeffs was denied a fair, impartial and unbiased grand jury, and that the prosecution presented false or misleading evidence to the grand jury.
Jeffs originally faced 10 charges in Arizona.
Four of them were dropped at the request of the defense because Arizona's incest law doesn't apply to Jeffs' cases. Two of them were dropped at the request of the prosecution because the alleged victim refused to testify.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10033842

[Glow]

Tuesday, July 29, 2008
Details continue to trickle out, Texas is NOT so sure.
The Deseret News;



"A Bishop's Record seized by law enforcement and entered into court evidence in a San Angelo court said Allan Keate had a 17-year-old wife, and may have fathered an underage child with her. (Michael George) Emack, according to the same records, has a 19-year-old wife and had a 1 1/2-year-old son with her."

Age of Consent in Texas after 2005, is 17. They are not that confident yet, in their case. A 19 year old wife with a one and a half year old son was impregnated two years and three months ago. How old a 19 year old are we talking here? 19 years and 2 months? Saying that Allan Keate may have fathered and "underage child" with her (strange phrasing) doesn't speak of great confidence either.

Teresa Jeffs swears she is a virgin from what I've heard, that makes her "spiritual marriage" a betrothal and not a consumated relationship. The Doctor is charged with failure to report. That's four of the five. As I said, the charge of Bigamy against Merrill Jessop indicates the only charge that Texas has confidence in. Sorry to keep repeating myself but the evidence keeps stacking up, bit by bit. They would have charged the three other men with Bigamy if they thought the charges were good enough to stick. Of course, all of this may change.

http://hughmcbryde.blogspot.com/

[faw720]

[quote=Glow;2429274]



Leroy Jessop, 33 — Sexual Assault of a Child and Felony Bigamy

Why is he the only one charged with Bigamy? If this was a "spiritual" marriage only - can the State bring bigamy charges?

[quote]

I am guessing that he is charged with bigamy because Texas recognizes common law marriage. The last I knew there were only 2 requirements to constitute a common law marriage. (1)The couple must live together X amount of time & (2) must also represent themselves as man & wife. Under Texas law they are then considered as legally married as someone whose marriage was performed by the Pope. A divorce is legally required to disolve the union. Of course, most people don't know this & in theory Texas could have thousands of bigamist, but there's never been any push to enforce this. I'm also guessing that Texas has found some evidence such as a driver's license( 2 women with driver's license in the name of Mrs.Leroy Jessop), car title(2 women on the title listed as Mrs. Leroy (Joann) Jessop & Mrs. Leroy (Jean) Jessop, or other public record where Leroy Jessop has multiple wives that can be officially tied to him. I'm sure Texas is digging into literally everything that could possibly support a bigamy charge & they'll probably succeed in charging others in the FLDS/

[Glow]

Well that makes sense faw.

I agree that we will see more bigamy charges to follow.

Bigamy is as you said probably more prevelent than we know, but without someone actively looking for it, not talked about much.

As for the under age marrying, for thinking individuals intent of the law should come in to play.

Prior to 2005, the law was written in a way intended to stop predatory behavior of adult men, but to leave the actual "marriage" decisions up to the parents and the couple involved.

The intent of the law AFTER 2005 was clearly to stop FLDS from practicing polygamy or from marrying below aged 16.

[Glow]

There is some very disturbing evidence that Judge Walthers and CPS head counsel Charles Childress did have a private meeting without the presence of the AALs for the FLDS. The writer (he is a lawyer) at the link below has an inside contact, and he asked that contact why exhibit A was removed from the ruling before it was sent out to opposing counsel. Here's the response:


A1: The judge removed the exhibit, after it [the motion?] was presented to her for signature. The CPS lead attorney indicated that attorneys had received a copy of the attachment. He also informed the court, after the confusion arose of “no attachment,” that he would send out a letter explaining the court’s reason for removing the exhibit.


The motion was physically filed on Thursday, but wasn't e-filed until late Friday afternoon. The blog writer asked about that and was told:

A2: The motion was filed at approximately 11:00 am on the 21st in person and was walked directly up to the Judge for her consideration. The motion and signed order was not returned to the clerk until the following day . . .


There's more at his site- this is pretty disturbing:

I believe it was walked up by Mr. Childress. Although I was not present, I understand that the exhibit was detached during the course of the judge reviewing the motion, exhibit and order, prior to signature.


Furthermore, Childress has promised to draft a letter to the opposing counsels to explain the Judge's reasoning for removing exhibit A.

The question to ask is how Childress would be privy to such information if he hadn't had an ex parte meeting with Judge Walthers. He asks some other excellent questions as well-

http://iperceive.net/

[Glow]

The indictments have been posted at

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/07-08/0730yfzranchindictments.pdf

[faw720]

Bigamy is as you said probably more prevelent than we know, but without someone actively looking for it, not talked about much.



Well the thing is, with the Texas common law, many people here are actually legally married & don't even realize it. When you have people living together & then after a time, moving on to other partners the possibility for bigamy is great.

[Glow]

In looking at information on the women who testified before the Grand Jury, I came across this picture of Sarah Barlow Draper.

She was originally judged by CPS as being an under aged teen mother. She is 37.

I am not CPS "trained" but not for one minute would I have gauged this women as being a teenager.





http://www.deseretnews.com/photos/midres/5588155.jpg

[Glow]

Well the thing is, with the Texas common law, many people here are actually legally married & don't even realize it. When you have people living together & then after a time, moving on to other partners the possibility for bigamy is great.


Wouldnt if be a hoot if the state of Texas would take one week and just a fraction of the money they have spent trying to zero in on the FLDS and look at the mainstream populations bigamists?

That will never happen of course, but just thinking about it is smile inducing! :crazy:

[Glow]

It is incorrect to say that religious persecution plays no role here-

The truth is, it was just fine for more than a hundred years for 14 year old Texas Baptist girls to get married with parental consent, but apparently immoral for 14 year old girls amongst the FLDS membership to get similarly married.

Even today, if local Baptist parents in the Texas Hill Country asked for a court to approve the marriage of their 14 year old daughter, they would get that order with very little bother. But if a set of FLDS parents asked for a similar order, they would be put through a wringer by the judge, and might not get the order at all, not even if the reasons were to be the same for the Baptists.

It is incorrect to say that polygamy plays no part in peoples thinking -

Some have heard of the Short Creek Raid. It has been compared to the YFZ raid recently. The concern of the "people" when the Short Creek Raid occurred was over the "so called" welfare of the children living in a polygamous arrangement.

Today 55 years later, with divorce and single parent homes being the norm, gay marriage gaining increasing acceptance among mainstream society, it is harder for us to cast the first stone at polygamous families without looking completely ridiculous. So now we say its not the polygamy OR the religion.

So what is it really about?

Today, what we do instead, is we say it is about the children. We don't care if our own mainstream statistics are worse than theirs as far as teen pregnancy, sexual abuse of children or education.

We don't care that when using scientifically measurable indicators of what constitutes insuring a happy life (if such a thing is indeed measurable) that they have the edge over us.

No. We blindly insist that our way is better. Much better for the FLDS teen girls to be "rescued" by us and if they are not sexually abused in foster care then they can become our next pop culture laden young women seeking true love on Face Book or even better they can attend some "party campus" masquerading as a higher education institute! http://www.princetonreview.com/schoollist.aspx?type=r&id=737&uidbadge=%07 Then these girls can settle down with a man near their own age who will abuse them or cheat on them, or for whatever other reason simply move on, leaving them with their statistical 2.2 children towing in their wake.

Then they can go on the state dole until and unless they can find another man to marry and then they along with their children will be "reassigned" to this man (by the fatherly government entity known as whatever state they apply for a marriage license in) and if that marriage doesn't work out (statistics say odds are high it wont) they can repeat the process after adding another child or so!

Yes, if we could just rescue these teens from their "narrow" life and open them up to the unlimited excitement and "culture" and possibilities that "we" have to offer them - life would be so much better!

Instead, there they sit. They are condemned to living a life that they see as one of purpose. They are emotionally stable and are part of a loving supportive female network. They are financially secure and physically fit. They look 10 to 20 years younger than their mainstream counterparts. They are healthy, focused and content.

Until they met us, they were happy. And they did all of this without mood altering little happy pills OR Oprah and the other self help gurus that we use to aid us, as we stagger along on our own fulfilling debt laden paths.

Maybe in addition to hating them because they are different - we are a little jealous. Just by living their lives without the need for pills or booze to get through the day - they are different.

Being so thin and young looking with nary a gym membership or spa around must mean they are crazy.

And to want to have five children or ten or more, that they want to raise themselves instead of dropping them off at a perfectly good daycare? Insane.

I think on some deep primal level these women threaten us.

I mean, how dare they not live like us?

Who do they think they are?

[Glow]

I have wondered for some time about the absolute venom that drips from some womens lips about the women of FLDS. I understand it concerning the men. But the women?

They seem to only have two choices in the average mainstream womans mind. They can be a victim OR they can be a co conspirator.

That's it!

Really? Has the world become that black and white for us? Are we really that intolerant about concepts such as freedom of choice and lifestyle? Does a young woman in America have to follow the rigid mainstream path in order for us to feel she is "free". Free of what exactly?

Why is it that to marry young and devote your life to your children and home has become such a horrifying fate?

Where exactly ARE all those compelling statistics that marrying older and having fewer children is the one and only path to happiness? Could somebody please point them out to me? Because when I go looking, what I find is just the opposite.

The feminist movement told us we were unhappy and unfulfilled without freedom of choice in our careers, and our sexual lives. So many career ladders climbed tons of birth control pills swallowed and millions of aborted babies and STD's later - where are we?

I spoke with a friend yesterday. She is a 67 year old card carrying member of the feminist movement. She was mourning over the plight of her one and only child, Alison, who is the light of her life.

Seems in spite of moms best hearted attempts at raising this daughter single handedly and giving her all the options that any mother could, the 30 something yr old daughter wants to ditch her townhouse, her 6 figure salaried job and dreams of a little house in the country........ with a man.........and children..........and a garden.

But she cant sell the expensive town house in the city in todays market. And she cant quit the high paying, high stress job where her boss is a belligerent and belittling jerk because then how would she pay for the townhouse?

In addition, her best friend, also in her 30's has bilateral breast cancer. Drs say it is partially genetic and heavily influenced by the fact that she has been on BC pills since she was 15. She is having both breasts removed.

My friends daughter is stressed and miserable. She feels trapped with no way out.

Kind of like how some have described the FLDS women.

The fact that Alison is trapped in a cage that is gilded rather than the plain wooden cage of an FLDS woman does not make it any less of a cage.


When people have fewer choices they tend to be happier
(link posted earlier in this thread)


Women can even have better health from becoming pregnant. Pregnancy is a cancer fighter, especially if women conceive under the age of 20.
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/prevention/breast/Patient/page3#Keypoint13


The truth is if a woman or a girl wants to opt out of the FLDS culture she can.

She can even write a book about it and sign off on the movie rights. Now that's having options!

[southcitymom]

Hi Glow!

Just popping in to say hi and to thank you for continuing to post about this fascinating story.

My love and respect to you always,

South!

[Ciara]

I just want to second what SCM said. I dont comment so much as I disagree with your views on the subject Glow but I read all the posts you put here and appreciate all the links:)

[Glow]

Hi Glow!

Just popping in to say hi and to thank you for continuing to post about this fascinating story.

My love and respect to you always,

South!

I just want to second what SCM said. I dont comment so much as I disagree with your views on the subject Glow but I read all the posts you put here and appreciate all the links:)

Thanks South & Ciara :blowkiss:

Ciara, you can feel free to comment. I know that you dont agree with me and I respect that. :)

If anyone had ever told me I would find myself in the position of defending a radical little band of religious zealots - I would have laughed at them.

People who know me in real life are laughing (affectionately I think ) at me because they know that I:

- don't personally support the concept of organized religion

- have always been an ardent supporter of abused women & children

- don't really take a great interest in most things political

so my interest in this topic has caught everyone around me by surprise - including myself.

[Glow]

Someone has asked me to please clarify a statement I made.

In a post from yesterday I said-



The truth is if a woman or a girl wants to opt out of the FLDS culture she can.

She can even write a book about it and sign off on the movie rights. Now that's having options!


I wrote that because Carolyn Jessops book has been optioned for its movie rights with Kathryn Heigl.

So no financial worries for Carolyn ever again!

heres the link
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/archives/2008_06_01_archive.htm

Thanks to the poster who pointed out the obscurity of that statement so that I could correct it.

[Glow]

I guess Flora wants in on the action too.


Friday, August 01, 2008
Church of Lies: Flora writes a book

Flora Jessop, with help from Paul T. Brown, is at work on a book to be released in January. Its title:

''Church of Lies: How Flora Jessop Escaped the Slavery and Sexual Abuse of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints and Dedicated Her Life to the Continuing Rescue and Successful Liberation of Women and Children from this Notorious Sect.''

Whew. That is a mouthful.

Here is the preface from the book, which is being published by Jossey-Bass:

''My name is Flora Jessop. I've been called apostate, vigilante, and crazy bitch, and maybe I am. But some people call me a hero, and I'd like to think they're right too. If I am a hero, maybe it's because every time I can play a part in saving a child or a woman from a life of servitude and degradation, I'm saving a little piece of me, too.

I was one of twenty-eight children born to my dad and his three wives. Indoctrinated to believe that the outside world was evil, and that I resided among the righteous, I was destined to marry a man chosen for me by the Prophet. I would then live in harmony with my sister-wives, bear many children, and obey and serve my future husband in this life and throughout eternity. But my innocence didn't last long. While still a child, I understood that the church of the righteous was nothing but a church of lies.

When I was eight years old my father sexually molested me for the first time, raping me when I was twelve. I tried to kill myself. Beaten, molested, taunted, and abused by family members alleging they only wanted to save my soul became a daily routine, I ran from this abuse more than once in my early teens, even attempting to cross the desert on foot. My family hunted me down. I thought government agencies would provide me safety if I reported my father. Instead, police and social services colluded with the FLDS to return me to my family and I ended up back inside polygamy, right where I started.''

Flora goes on from there to tell the dramatic true story of how she ultimately escaped and has been fighting against frustrating obstacles with hard fought successes in rescuing women and children from the FLDS. It's a story you can't put down.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

[Glow]

I dont think there is anyone at all who feels that Flora has an ounce of credibility anymore - judging by all the silence when her name comes up.

Even the Senate hearings preferred the more sane sounding Carolyn Jessop over Flora.

For any who havent heard the truth about Flora, here is the rest of her story...


Quotes from folks OUTSIDE the FLDS-

"The information Flora's putting out that there's a mass exodus, it just isn't happening," said Bob Curran, director of Help the Child Brides, a St. George-based anti-polygamy group. "We're trying to lower the rhetoric and the temperature. We know of no more runaways. This is just hurting us."
Tapestry Against Polygamy leaders said they also are concerned that the story is nothing but a rumor."

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,590037547,00.html

~

"One reason I have doubts about Flora Jessop's reliability as a witness against FLDS is that she was so much younger than many others when she left- a 16 year old would just not have been privy to all the 'inside' information nor would she have been particularly good at assessing it. She also left a very long time ago- the inner culture changes. And she tells stories that aren't supported by any evidence. She has been one who has spoken of stockpiles of weapons and guns and armed body guards, but the entire history of this group has been non-violent."

http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/search?q=flora


~


"It's obvious that Flora's credibility is questionable at this point. But that hasn't dampened the mainstream media's willingness to continue facilitating her propaganda campaign against the FLDS." Flora is a publicity-hungry "fanatic" whose "demands to have control over someone else's children are becoming eerily similar to the dictatorial attitude of her sworn nemesis, Warren Jeffs." She is "misguided and devious."

-The Phoenix New Times

~


"She said the “compounds” aren't like homes in that they are fortified, built with thick walls. “They are very much armed. They have many, many weapons," she warned, and even went so far as to say that Warren Jeffs is “David Koresh, Jim Jones, and 9-11 all wrapped up in one nice little package. These guys are very dangerous."

It is now evident who is the more dangerous—Flora. These views of Doran’s trusted informant explain why he called in such a dramatic show of law enforcement with extensive firepower and militant might. With SWAT-team methods they crashed through doors and entered into homes with machine guns raised in an invasion so large and with so much might that it cost Texas $5.3 million to carry out. But what kind of resistance did they encounter? Was it Flora’s forewarned apocalyptic bloodbath? No, they encountered nothing more than shocked adults and scared crying children. Where were all of Flora’s promised weapons? Once again we see why Flora Jessop cannot be believed. Truth is as elusive in her life as were the purported weapons—they did not exist whatsoever."

http://fldsview.blogspot.com/search?q=flora

~

Flora does more harm than good, is an unpredictable bad source, and not credit worthy.… She talks a good ball game, but when you look at her…. She rules over anybody who gets in her way, including me.”

-Bob Curran, founder of the anti-polygamist organization, Help the Child Brides, (personally worked with Flora)

~

"Flora has been swept up in “the TV interviews, the fame, and the glory. … She loves the attention. She's craved it her whole life.… Nobody wants anything to do with Flora.” “Flora's been getting away with these [false] stories for a long time now, and it’s time to shut her down.”

-Pennie Petersen, anti-polygamy activist who grew up with Flora in FLDS

~

"My sister Fawn's story is similar most people still believe she fled a "forced marriage" My father treated her the same way as Uncle Fred did Flora. Yet when she took her to Phoenix, Flora had Fawn give an affidavit saying she was "abused”, “faced a forced marriage” and “feared for blood atonement", despite the fact that Fawn has over ten older sisters and not one was married under eighteen or ever felt that they were forced. The CPS and authorities in Arizona investigated, the charges were dropped, and Flora was ordered to stay away from Fawn. That part of the story never made the paper.

http://fldsview.blogspot.com/search?q=flora

~


Quotes From Insiders

"Flora ran away with her cousin Phillip Jessop. He was not much older than she. I know I lived there. Flora was never in a plural marriage relationship except her father had more than one wife."

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=5458658945502484148&postID=2934930550860397775&isPopup=true

~

The FLDS website has an interesting story up. It's purportedly by the woman who raised Flora Jessop, and she wants to set the record straight. I think it's only fair to read it, since Flora has been telling her side of the story to the media and anybody who will listen for years now. Unlike Flora's version, this woman's tale has a couple details that ought to be able to be verified, or not, by a good reporter checking a few court records.


To whom it may concern:

"My name is Martha Barlow Jessop, wife of the late Fred M. Jessop, whom Flora referred to as “Grandpa.” I am an Advanced Practice Registered Nurse and a Certified Nurse Midwife. I was very closely associated with Flora from her birth until she was 16 years old. I was appointed her guardian by the State of Utah when she was 14. She was under my direct care and supervision, living in my home, until she left at age 16 years.
After listening to and hearing of the stories and lies that Flora has been telling and putting out to the world through the media—lies about how she was “abused” and “escaped” from her childhood home and religion, I feel compelled to tell the true story of Flora......

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=45
~

[Glow]

While mainstream America is busy tisk tisking those crazy "sect" people here is what we have going on in our own culture -



Child Predators Citations

Among girls 15 and younger who become pregnant, between 60 and 80 percent of them are impregnated by adult men.


Data shows that as the age of the victim goes down, the age of the perpetrator goes up.


Average age of men who father children with girls under 14 is now higher than the average age of men who father children with 18-year-olds.

When compared to girls who are sexually active with boys near their own age, these girls are more likely to:

Have multiple sex partners

Drop out of school

Engage in dangerous sexual behaviors

Become pregnant

Runaway from home and be lured into prostitution

Abuse drugs or alcohol

End up on welfare

Be estranged from friends and family

Be in physically abusive relationships

Become divorced

The highest rate of sexually transmitted diseases in America is found among females ages 15 to 19, and that the overwhelming majority of these girls contracted these diseases from adult males.

Abortion industry data showing that underage girls given abortion or birth control are not being reported. Backed up by government documentation.

http://www.lifeissues.org/misc/documentation.html

[Glow]

Here are some of the more interesting Qs & As being discussed in the comments section over on Brookes blog:

On the concept of "we must always obey the laws of the land..." the following line of reason was offered -

"Wouldn't you agree that the answer depends on what the "law" considers a "felony offense" and whether that definition is consistent with natural law or and rights of man?

It was, at one time, a felony offense in most states to assist a "negro" slave in running away from his/her master. If you had been practicing at that time, in Texas, wouldn't your "law and order" ethic require you to lock up members of the underground railroad?

Likewise, it was at one time, in Germany, a felony punishable by death to assist Jews to get out of the country. Would you take the government's position in such a case?

How is the Eldorado case any different than those? You have a government, the State of Texas, that has widely broadcast that it's purpose in writing the law it now seeks to enforce against the FLDS was, in fact, to enforce it only against the FLDS in order to drive them out of the State.

Do you support the State of Texas in this action? And if so, on what moral grounds do you do so?

Isn't it our duty as human beings to violate immoral laws?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



An observation on the underage aged girls involved with the FLDS 5-

"One thing that caught my eye is that all the girls except one are described as "under 17" and the last is described as "under 16". So all but one were sixteen.
Now a sixteen year old girl can get an abortion in this country without anybody's consent. The lawmakers (supposedly representing society)decided girls of that age are mature enough to make their own "choice" on that. Mature enough to weigh the options, understand the risks and make that decision all on her own without any input from adults. They will vehemently defend this position.

Suddenly the girls maturity level and right to make her own choices about her sexuality end at allowing her to choose whom she wishes to have sex with?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Comment about the Dr. involved in the FLDS case-

From the indictments:
"... on or about the 20th day of May, 2007 ... Lloyd Hammond Barlow ... having delivered a baby from , a child, had cause to believe that [blanked] had been abused or neglected or may be abused or neglected, or that the child was a victim of the offense of Indecency with a Child ...did fail to make a report not later than the 48th hour after he first suspected ..."

With one of the nation's highest birthrates coming from under aged 'children', there wouldn't be a Texas hospital that could birth babies IF there was any --even the tiniest shred-- of equal enforcement. Of course that law's been in effect two years and no effort's been made to actually use it ... until the FLDS.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[B]A comparison of the same events using a mainstream minority situation-

I call a child abuse hotline and tell them I know of a specific public park that has a number of young men, all past high school age hanging out, and there are always several of the 'baby mamas' hanging out with them, and I know several of those 'baby mamas' to be under fifteen yrs of age....
and further, I know one is named Shanique, and she feels as though coercion is being used to force her to have babies...
You're telling me that CPS is going to go into that public park, take all the stroller babies and toddlers on the gym set into custody, as well as all the 'baby mamas' that LOOK underage, even if they produce identification...and they're further going to ask all the young men for swabs for DNA testing....
and then they're going to convene a grand jury...and, so on and so forth....and they're going to prosecute all these folks for sexual assault....
Puhleeeeees
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I personally pause at calling the FLDS situation genocide. It is hard to use that term in light of more serious extremes such as what occurred in Germany with the Jews or what occurred here in America with the Native Americans. Nevertheless, this comment was thought provoking.


http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm

Genocide is narrowly defined by international law ratified by the United Nations and as a member nation the US is subject to this law.

What is it you are confused by TBM? It's pretty clear how the law defines genocide. Very specifically the removal of children is included in the definition.

"Forcible transfer of children may be imposed by direct force or by fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion. The Convention on the Rights of the Child defines children as persons under the age of 18 years."

Also, it clearly states that nobody has to be killed:

"Genocidal acts need not kill or cause the death of members of a group. Causing serious bodily or mental harm, prevention of births and TRANSFER OF CHILDREN are acts of genocide when committed as part of a policy to destroy a group’s existence." (emphasis supplied)

. The law is clearly written, applicable and enforceable in the US.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some observations about the Indictments -

"Leroy Jessops bigamy charge is probably a "test" case, and the one that they have the least evidence of "assault"

In Texas, it is against the law for an adult to have sex with anyone under the age of 17, unless they are legally married. So each of the indictments for sexual assault refer to the victim as "under 17".

The indictment that refers to the girl who is "under 16" is for bigamy. In Texas it is unlawful to marry someone who is under the age of 16. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that the same girl is mentioned in both of Merril Jessop's indictments, yet she is referred to as "under 17" in the sexual assault indictment and "under 16" in the bigamy indictment.

However, these five indictments are being used to support the original accusation of CPS, that there is a 'pervasive' belief in and practice of adult men having sex with under-aged girls.

And while the Supreme Court did return the children, I do not think it's moot to point out that CPS' goal was to remove ALL YfZ children regardless of evidence of abuse, complaints, reports, or anything else, and including children NOT YET BORN. The reason I don't think it's moot is because CPS hasn't closed out a single case yet. I think we need to keep our eyes on what they are doing so they don't try it again, just more quietly.

And these five men, even if they are guilty (and personally, I'm not going to be shocked or deeply dismayed if it turns out they are convicted) do not a 'pervasive climate' make. Adult men having sex with under-aged girls is clearly less 'pervasive' in the YfZ than the rest of Texas, since Texas leads the nation in teen pregnancies, some 40 percent of those are adult men with teen girls, yet Texas has a far less than one percent rate of charging and convicting those adult fathers who are not members of the FLDS."

Here is the link if you would like to read more

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=23675089&postID=3610162069277297013

[Glow]

Can you guess correctly?


Parents & children: A natural right of constitutional dimensions
by Kurt Schulzke

Here’s a reader quiz. Please read the following two (relatively short) paragraphs and then choose the author/editor from the options provided below.

In the case of parental rights, “[t]he natural right which exists between parents and their children is one of constitutional dimensions.” A parent’s right to uninterrupted access to and care of her child ranks as “far more precious than property rights,” and indeed is a “fundamental liberty interest protected by the Fourteenth Amendment.” . . . the right of the individual to … marry, establish a home and bring up children, [and] to worship God according to the dictates of one’s own conscience” [are] liberty interests entitled to due process.

Accordingly, courts have singled out for heightened protection that “most essential and basic aspect of familial privacy – the right of the family to remain together without the coercive interference of the awesome power of the state.” “This right to the preservation of family integrity encompasses the reciprocal rights of both parent and children. It is the interest of the parent in the companionship, care, custody and management of his or her children, and of the children in not being dislocated from the emotional attachments that derive from the intimacy of daily association, with the parent.”

Please record in a comment one of the following as your choice:

a. Judge Barbara “Defarge” Walther

b. Abraham Lincoln

c. Justice John Roberts

d. Justice Antonin Scalia

e. Governor Rick “Shoot-First” Perry

f. ACLU of Texas

The answer is in the next post :)

[Glow]

And the winner is . . . (drum roll) . . .



It’s from the ACLU’s brief in the Eldorado case.


The language was lifted, of course, from a number of appellate and SCOTUS decisions.

FYI -

the Supreme Court of the United States is colloquially referred to by the acronym SCOTUS


link for the above two posts -

http://iperceive.net/parents-children-a-natural-right-of-constitutional-dimensions/#more-664

[Glow]

Clashing stories, similar DNA hurt FLDS prosecution
But state's case may be helped by records girls kept in their journals
By TERRI LANGFORD
Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle

Indicting members of a polygamist sect on child sexual assault is one thing.
But prosecuting anyone on child sexual assault charges is a much different, and tougher, thing to accomplish, according to legal experts.
Even if Texas Child Protective Services comes back with a finding that sexual abuse happened at the sect's Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas, the standard for a child sexual assault conviction is much higher, said professor Ellen Marrus, who heads the University of Houston's Center for Children, Law and Policy.
"The problem isn't so much proving the issue that there had been sexual contact," Marrus said. "The bigger issue is proving who did it. ... So unless the child testifies that she had sex with a Mr. A or Mr. B, you don't have any proof who did it."

On July 22, FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, 52, and four of his followers — Raymond Merrill Jessop, 36; Allan Eugene Keate, 56; Michael George Emack, 57; and Merrill Leroy Jessop, 33 — were indicted on sexual assault of a child charges. A sixth man, Lloyd Hammon Barlow, 38, was charged with three counts of failure to report child abuse. Jeffs is in custody in Arizona, where he is accused of arranging underage marriages. The other five surrendered to authorities last week.

Under Texas law, sexual assault of a child occurs when an adult has sexual contact with someone younger than 17.

What started with a March 28 complaint that at least one girl was being physically and sexually abused by a man decades her senior — a call now considered a hoax — quickly escalated into the largest, and arguably one of the most complex, child custody cases in the U.S. after CPS and law enforcement officers reached the remote 1,700-acre ranch that sits northeast of the tiny town of Eldorado.

But from the start, the sect's own demographic makeup and culture of providing little information about themselves to outsiders, particularly after a 1953 raid on their homes by Arizona officials, has made this case difficult.......
"We told them the day (of the indictments) we were going to face that thing," Willie Jessop said. "The people are honorable. We don't believe we're criminals."

The level of evidence needed to indict someone is far lower than the type of evidence needed to convict someone "beyond a reasonable doubt." And to convict, prosecutors will need much more than is required by CPS to confirm child sexual abuse occurred.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5922407.html

[Glow]

Wisan makes a move in Canada
Here is a story from The Globe and Mail:

LAWSUIT
U.S. official vies for control of polygamist private school

ROBERT MATAS

August 4, 2008
The Globe and Mail

VANCOUVER -- In an unprecedented cross-border initiative, a court-appointed official from the United States is trying to take over a private school in British Columbia run by the polygamist Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Bruce Wisan, who was appointed by a U.S. court to protect the assets of the FLDS, has launched a lawsuit in B.C. Supreme Court seeking authority to gain control of the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School located in a rural area outside Creston, B.C.

Mr. Wisan said in a telephone interview from Salt Lake City, Utah, that he became involved in Canada as a result of the split within the community between followers of FLDS leader Warren Jeffs and supporters of Canadian Winston Blackmore.

He said his interest in the school arises from the refusal of the FLDS group to allow children from families supporting Mr. Blackmore to attend the school. ''The non-FLDS, which is in the majority, got kicked out of the school. They are not even allowed to use the school playgrounds,'' Mr. Wisan said.

Mr. Wisan is also considering a contentious scheme to impose a monthly assessment on Canadian members to pay for sewage and maintenance costs for 48 rural properties in the southeast corner of B.C.

The aggressive moves by the U.S. certified accountant based in Salt Lake City are a sharp contrast to the approach of B.C. authorities.

Despite controversy over polygamy and the teachings at the school run by the religious sect, the provincial Education Ministry continues to contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to the school's operations.

Also, for more than 15 years, the B.C. government has been debating whether to take any action against members of the religious sect.

Mr. Wisan said he launched the lawsuit to force an equitable distribution of FLDS assets in Canada. He has asked the court to remove the FLDS members as directors of the society that runs the school and to appoint him as the trustee to regulate its affairs. He has also asked the court to designate him as the beneficial owner of the school properties.

Mr. Wisan is considering an assessment on FLDS members in Canada to pay for infrastructure maintenance on the properties. ''The FLDS living on the property will not contribute or deal with any community infrastructure issues,'' he said.

This fee could spark further confrontation, Mr. Wisan conceded.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

[Glow]

[B]
This fee could spark further confrontation, Mr. Wisan conceded.

http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/

Here is a little bit of what that confrontation could consist of -

The school directors in a statement of defense deny the society acquired the school properties in trust for the UEP. They also challenge whether Mr. Wisan has a right to initiate the court action in Canada.

[Glow]

On the idea that the FLDS are a "cult and not an authentic religion....


"Authentic is in the eyes of the beholder. All religion is bizarre. Look at Christianity. Three separate entities (father, Son, Holy Ghost) rolled into one God, the Holy Ghost comes down and impregnates virgins and the Son could walk on water, turn water into wine, cast out demons, instantly clone fish and bread and raise himself from the dead. Yet, his closet companions couldn’t recognize him upon his resurrection.

How is it not institutional abuse to teach that, or that the Earth is 6,000 years old, or that Evolution doesn’t exist?"

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:NB374slpNJkJ:letters.salon.com/c0c4ded3f7cde9ed0b00abf93e1dba4e/author/index136.html+FLDS+welfare+fraud+investigation+a+y ear+no+charges&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a

[Glow]

On the issue of reassigning families in the FLDS.
The article below was written by one who is neither FLDS nor LDS. It gives a very clear and concise overview on what it is exactly that makes a practice that to mainstream people seems ridiculous, actually makes sense if you begin with the core beliefs the FLDS are beginning with.
Once again it becomes important for all of us who would like to make sense of this deeply complicated case that we listen with ears that hear beyond our own values and belief systems. We can do this when we first of all understand one basic principle which is that a person can understand something without approving of it. The difference in understanding and agreeing is beautifully covered below -



"I don't like the reassigning of wives (and I do not think it's antithetical to Joseph Smith's own teachings and practices), and I think it's a problem that isn't going to go away so long as the faulty underlying theology that supports it remains in place.

The FLDS, like the old mainstream Mormons of the 19th century, believed that when you die, if you have been faithful, worked hard enough, and have been 'sealed,'- that is married for all eternity, then you go to the Celestial Kingdom where you will become gods and goddess, procreating eternally, and participating fully in the work of creation, creating and people worlds and universes of your own, where the man will be the Heavenly Father for those children he and his wives produce and send to live on the worlds created by these new deities. The LDS used to have a slogan, "As man is, God once was, as God is, man will become." I say used to, because in 1997 then LDS President Gorden Hinkley seemed to repudiate it, or at least dismiss it as basically not much more than a couplet he didn't know much about. Whatever the current status of this teaching in the mainstream LDS, it's still what the FLDS believe.

They also believe in the same teaching mainstream Mormons used to believe (and some still do, but I understand it's dying out quietly and slowly) that the woman would not be resurrected until her husband called her name- her new name, given to her in the temple during one of the temple ceremonies. (for other once mainstream LDS teachings that have gone by the wayside but are probably still FLDS teachings, try skimming the Journal of Discourses)

If you believe that your resurrection is dependent upon your husband's sanctification and goodwill, and if you believe that the place of the younger children in Heaven is also dependent upon the holiness of the father, it is a natural progression to believe that, should the husband and father lose what the LDS and FLDS call 'priesthood authority' through immoral living or other failings, then you must be connected to a new husband and father, at best until the old one repents and returns to the fold. The reassigning is a Holy Insurance Policy, basically.If you believe that a woman and children are dependent upon the virtues and spiritual excellence of the husband and father, then it follows that earthly marriage and parent child ties not only can, but must be, broken at will for the sake of the eternal security of the woman and children.

I don't believe those things. I think they are anathema. I have been asked, as have others, why it's 'okay' for Warren Jeffs to tell a family they must separate and to reassign a wife and children to a new husband and father, but it's not okay for the State of Texas in the role of CPS to remove 450 children from their homes without any evidence that they have been abused. Isn't this hypocritical, people ask.

I think deeply flawed theological premises result in deeply flawed practices, and that's what we have here, in my opinion. We are free to discuss these issues and even try to persuade others of the correctness of our own view and the errors of somebody else's. It's not the state's job to regulate religious beliefs, so this is a role best played by private citizens.

I also think what we have in the comments of those who consider it hypocritical to judge the actions of the state differently from the actions of individuals, is a deeply flawed understanding of the function of the government and the differences between the government and a private institution.


While I object strongly to the practice of reassigning (because I disagree sharply with the theology that underlies it), there remains a fundamental difference between Warren Jeffs claiming this power and the state claiming this power. However hard it might be, if you are FLDS and you disagree with the practice, you can walk away. You can say no and leave the fold with your family intact, and there isn't much Warren can do about it. Or you can legally divorce the spouse who remains behind and go through the mess of a custody fight, no different from thousands of other Americans every year who go through the trauma of divorce and broken homes for other reasons which are not any more admirable than this one. Warren Jeffs can force you out of the FLDS. He cannot force you out of your family unless you and your family agree with him.

The state does not need your agreement. It can throw you in jail, prevent you from working with children, force you or your children to take psychotropic drugs, garnish your paycheck, give your children invasive and embarrassing medical exams and a toxic cocktail of vaccinations, move the children from one foster home to another, deny you all rights to see them, tell you that unless your husband moves out of your home (even if he is only guilty of unwittingly giving your son an alcoholic lemon-ade) you will never see your children again, and you have no right, ever, to say, "I disagree, and I won't do this." They don't even have to prove his guilt via criminal charges in a court of law.

You can say no in the FLDS. It may be hard. It may mean leaving the community and religion you love, it may mean walking away from everything else you hold dear- but the FLDS cannot come after you with all the might and power of the State and the unlimited funds taken from taxpayer pockets and force you by law to comply.

http://www.heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/

[Glow]

Texas authorities want eight FLDS children back in foster careBy Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 08/05/2008 04:08:29 PM MDT


Updated: 4:03 PM- Texas authorities have asked a judge to place eight children from a polygamous sect back in foster care after their mothers refused to sign safety plans that limit their contact with men involved in underage marriages.

The children include six girls and two boys who range in age from 5 to 17, according to Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for Texas Child Protective Services. CPS filed the motions Tuesday with 51st District Judge Barbara Walther
.
Three are children of Barbara Steed and Frederick Merril Jessop, whom are alleged to have permitted illegal marriages between minor daughters and older men or between adults sons and underage girls. Merril Jessop is a church elder who oversaw the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Among those children the state wants to place back in custody is a teenager who was 12 when she was married to sect leader Warren S. Jeffs on July 27, 2006.
That same day, two of Merril Jessop's sons - Merril Leroy Jessop and Raymond Jessop - were married to 15-year-old girls, one of whom is Jeffs' daughter. The brothers were indicted by a Schleicher County Grand Jury last month and are in jail. Merril Leroy Jessop faces felony bigamy and sexual assault charges, while Raymond Jessop faces a sexual assault charge.
The motion lists Amy E. Johnson as the mother of a 13-year-old girl the state wants placed in foster care. Johnson is alleged to have allowed a 15-year-old daughter to be married to an adult man in 2005. Merril Jessop and Wendell Loy Nielsen, to whom Johnson is now married, witnessed the ceremony, the documents state.
Two girls are daughters of Alice F. Barlow and Lloyd Hammon Barlow, a physician who was indicted by the grand jury on three counts of failure to report child abuse. The new court documents allege that one of Barlow's four plural wives was 16 at the time of their marriage and that in April he told state investigators he had overseen births to underage girls at the ranch and other places "many times."

Two other girls are daughters of Ellen G. Young and Nephi Barlow. Young is the sister of Barbara Jessop and also is married to Merril Jessop. The girls lived with the Jessops at the ranch for the past three years while their mother worked in Nevada, according to the documents.
An affidavit filed by a caseworker said Young stated that proposals to limit the girls' contact with Merril Jessop were "an insult to common sense" and allege she abandoned them.

The eight children were among those the state removed 440 children from the YFZ Ranch in April. The state alleged the children were being sexually and physically abused there.

In June, Walther returned the children to their parents after two higher courts said she did not have sufficient evidence they were being abused. Child welfare and criminal investigations into the sect continue, however.

In the past week, the state has begun offering parenting classes designed in part to educate FLDS members about state laws and how to protect their children from abuse. It also is requiring mothers of girls ages 10 to 17 to sign safety plans that include provisions that protect them from sexual abuse.
"For children who lived in a home with a man who married underage girls or agreed to an arranged marriage of an underage daughter, the safety plans include a requirement to keep the children away from that man," Meisner said in a press statement.

The mothers of the eight children listed in the court filing refused to do so, she said.

Meisner also said that CPS filed documents today to dismiss cases involving 32 children because there is either no evidence of underage marriages in their families or their parents have agreed to appropriate steps to protect them from abuse.

She said the state is working primarily with mothers, adding that in "more than half of the YFZ children, no match was found among the 26 fathers who provided DNA samples."

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_10105547

[Glow]

I finally finished reading these quit lengthy documents. Here is a brief overview of the highlights along with links to the documents themselves.

Case # 2804

THE CHILDREN
Hannah Barlow - 11
Renon Barlow - 9

mother is Ellen Grace Young age 41
She's an accountant by the way - so much for "they don't have any education"

(alleged father is Nephi Barlow)

Looks like Ellen was later married to Frederick Merrill Jessop.

Each of these affidavits goes on and on about what documents the parents must furnish.

Tax returns? Net worth? Health insurance?

This judgement if granted, gives the state the right to determine what if any and all medical care can be given.

In addition, the parents will have to submit to Psychological examinations, as determined by the state

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/2804-motion-8-5-08.pdf




CASE #2928

THE CHILD
Amy Elnora Johnson #age 13

Mother - Amy Johnson age 41
Alleged Father Orval Johnson

After consulting with her attorney she (Amy Johnson) refused to sign the CPS plan.

Mother and daughter are not living at the ranch, but rather in San Antonio.

the wording of the plan says the mother must protect her daughter from anyone who EVER entered into an underage age marriage.


Now how on earth is she supposed to do that? And what about the under aged marriages that occured before the State of Texas raised its own age limit up from 14?

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/2928-motion-8-5-08.pdf



Case 2833 THIS IS THE STATES STRONGEST CASE.

The girl, Merrianne is the one in that disgusting picture of Warren Jeffs kissing a very young girl.)

Sampson, 17 in May - Merrianne, 14 in July - Benjamin Jessop 11, will be 12 in Aug.

mother is Barbara Steed Jessop

she lives in Converse Tx.

alleged father is Frederick Merrill Jessop.

CPS feels this Father and Mother are to harsh in their discipline. One of the ways this was determined is by testimony of an ex wife.

CPS would allow "relatives to take the children as long as they do not live at the ranch.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/2833-motion-8-5-08.pdf



Case #2925 THIS IS THE STATES WEAKEST CASE

THE CHILDREN
Virginia Kloe Barlow will be 14 in Sept
Lynda Luella 5

Alice Faye 36 (mother)
Lloyd Barlow 39 father



Lloyd Barlow married a 16 year old named Sylvia in 2001. Due to this and the fact that he doesn't report under aged births he is deemed an unfit parent. If his wife will not state that she refuses him access to his children - then she is unfit also.

It is of note that the 16 year old was 'married' in 2001- before one of the children mentioned here was even born. It was also just ten days before her 17th birthday, and it occurred either in Texas, where that was not legally an under-aged relationship at the time, or it occurred in another state which makes it not the concern of the State of Texas. So which is it?

This one also contains some of the rantings and ravings of Warren Jeff's about his "visions" that actually have nothing to do with the children involved. I can only assume they are tossed in to show what a whack job the religious leader is in an attempt to use such flimsy reasons to take away this 14 year old and the 5 year old.

http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/2925-motion-8-5-08.pdf

[Glow]

I thought it was noteworthy that the lawyers advised the mothers not to sign the "plans" that CPS drew up.

This article explains why


Eight children

Texas Child Protective Services filed motions yesterday asking Judge Barbara Walther to send eight children from four FLDS families back into foster care.

CPS said in its motions that the children's mothers refused to sign safety plans that limit their contact with men who have been involved, as husbands, fathers or witnesses, in underage marriages.

Attorney Stephanie Goodman told me that she advised her client to not sign the safety plan because the document might be used against her in the future. She said her client was willing to verbally commit to the limit and that CPS had the power to see she kept the deal through unannounced home visit