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....While Adams was pressing the State of Texas hard on their methods, most national news outlets were doing just the opposite. Newspapers, wire services and cable television programs all told a different story. They relied heavily on Texas authorities, many of them unnamed and leaking information about the case. They turned to academics who have studied polygamy. And they told the stories of women who have left polygamist compounds
Adams' work was initially brought to my attention by a student who was writing a paper alleging just such a bias. But when I looked more closely, what I saw was a journalist asking tough questions.
Avoiding pack journalism has always been difficult. We've heard a lot about the failures of the media leading up to the Iraq War. But similar failures take place on a smaller level every day in American journalism. So what does it take?
http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=67&aid=144620
To save time lets start at the tail end of this case and work our way back...
CPS invited some mental health workers to the various shelters to help care for the hundreds of children. The mental health workers were disturbed by what they saw of CPS’s treatment of the women and children, and their written reports corroborate the bitter complaints of the FLDS mothers. I don’t think the news media has given this aspect of the story the attention it deserves — so here are some excerpts from the various reports that have been made public:
*“The CPS workers were openly rude to the mothers and the children, yelled at them for trying to wave to friends and family members in surrounding shelters, threatened them with arrest if they did not stop waving to others, continually reminded them that the women were guests only and could be made to leave if they did not cooperate, threatened the mothers with never seeing their children again if they did not cooperate, and ignored requests for anything.”
*“Try to imagine all these children from age 1 to 12 years, left in that coliseum [separated from their mothers] with only CPS and [police officers] to care for them. The only others were mothers whom CPS decided were under 18 and kept in their custody along with their children. The floor was literally slick with tears in places. A baby was left in a stroller without food and water for 24 hours and ended up in the hospital.
"By the second day, I was ready to run in front of the CNN cameras to shout that there was a travesty happening inside those walls…. Of course I was cautioned not to interfere in a ‘crime scene investigation.’”
“I have always been proud to be an American and a Texan but this incident is not what America or Texas stands for and something must be done to undo the horrible injustice that has been done.”
theres LOTS more if you dare...
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/05/30/texas-supreme-court-return-the-children/
A lot has been written in the press about an FLDS custom called bleeding the beast.
Was that the case specifically in the Texas group at YFZ?
Prior to the raid the YFZ community was self sustaining. According to the Deseret News of May 18, 2008, “the Texas Health and Human Services Commission has reported that none of the families who are members of the west Texas FLDS sect targeted by child protective services were on welfare.” In addition, the children were attending a private school, which received no public funds.
The cost to taxpayers since the raid, however, has been staggering. The Austin American-Statesman of May 21, 2008 estimates the entire population of Schleicher County as about 3,000, with an annual budget of $3.9 million. Court costs for the raid are expected to top $2.25 million even before attorney fees are added. Most of these expenses the county is obligated to pay.
Far from being a burden to taxpayers, the YFZ community prior to the raid was one of the largest taxpaying entities in Schleicher County. According to the Schleicher County Appraisal District, the assessed valuation of the community, including land and improvements, is $21 million. From 2004 to 2007, the FLDS have paid $1 million in property taxes, and the figure has been climbing every year.
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=41
mykodiak
06-07-2008, 08:24 PM
I don't believe that the Texas FLDS group has ever been accused of "bleeding the beast" in Texas. In fact, many people have questioned whether or not this was happening and have always been told it didn't happen in Eldorado. However, there are a lot of missing funds from the UEP that appear to have been used in Texas. I realize that the depletion of the fund is not solely a Texas problem, but funds taken from other state and federal government sources will cause other entities to take a second look at the reasons behind said depletion.
Whitewashing the FLDS won't make their actions any more palatable.
Hi mykodiak,
Some people (such as myself) have had a hard time separating out the actions of the YFZ members from the actions of the FLDS group as a whole. I actually didn't know that they (the YFZ) DIDNT receive government checks. I posted that link in case maybe some other readers were as in the dark on that as I was.
I appreciate your point that the funds from the UEP might have been misappropriated for use at the YFZ ranch. That seems likely in fact.
Of course funds shouldn't be misappropriated and I also don't think that the American tax payers should have to "fund" women and children living a polygamous life.
As for your concluding statement, I agree. That statement could be flipped over to say that whitewashing the actions of CPS won't make their actions any more palatable. Both your statement and mine are correct.
Remember when we were being told that there was practically no way to match the mothers with the children?
That seems to have not been true.
All the children taken from the Yearning for Zion Ranch are out of state custody and have been reunited with parents, the sect and state officials said Wednesday.
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9485607
mykodiak
06-07-2008, 09:34 PM
In a round-about way, they HAVE been receiving government funds since the benefits received in Utah and Arizona were deposited into the UEP and it financed a large portion of the YFZ ranch. They simply have not received any directed to them while living in Texas.
I agree, CPS has a lot work to do as well. CPS made many, many mistakes...but I still believe that society will now see a change in the FLDS's ability to hide behind the screen of "religion". There remains, at the root of all of the conflict and discussion, the enduring problem of FLDS continuing to demand that we allow underage marriage and the resultant sexual abuse simply because it is their religion. It is against the law and if they do not want to abide by the law of the land, they should not expect it to protect them when they choose to break it.
I agree with you on the 3 issues that you mentioned. Funds, underage marriage and sexual abuse are problems that need change.
I would add an additional issue though. I think that there are civil rights issues also.
oh I guess I would have to add one more while I am at it
the role of CPS and the media in perpetuating falsehoods and lies in this case. When FLDS lies, the outcry is huge. When it is discovered that CPS has lied, things get eerily silent.
IMO the truth needs to be looked at. No matter what it is.
southcitymom
06-07-2008, 10:40 PM
Incredible links, Glow. Thank you for posting them. As you know, I was appalled from the beginning at what seemed to be going down, but it was very difficult to get a full picture. I am deeply grateful that parents and children are being reunited and that they are all leaving the clutches of CPS and the state of Texas.
southcitymom
06-07-2008, 10:45 PM
....When FLDS lies, the outcry is huge. When it is discovered that CPS has lied, things get eerily silent....
The truth of this statement is deafening.
Organizations that have the extraordinary power to do what was done in this case must be held to an impeccable standard. Yet again, I fail to be impressed with the groups entrusted to keep some of our most vulnerable members safe.
PSUfan
06-07-2008, 11:00 PM
I agree with you on the 3 issues that you mentioned. Funds, underage marriage and sexual abuse are problems that need change.
I would add an additional issue though. I think that there are civil rights issues also.
oh I guess I would have to add one more while I am at it
the role of CPS and the media in perpetuating falsehoods and lies in this case. When FLDS lies, the outcry is huge. When it is discovered that CPS has lied, things get eerily silent.
IMO the truth needs to be looked at. No matter what it is. I have heard so many rumors about what went on there, from pets all being killed to boys being tossed out, having to turn to prostitution to survive.
I wondered how many of those things were even true, even though they were being presented as fact.
I also believe CPS way way way overstepped their bounds, and my heart breaks for these children who were ripped from their mothers.
I hope the truth comes out and if charges need to be filed, they be filed appropriately.
The truth of this statement is deafening.
Organizations that have the extraordinary power to do what was done in this case must be held to an impeccable standard. Yet again, I fail to be impressed with the groups entrusted to keep some of our most vulnerable members safe.
I know that you have had much concern for this situation and these children SM. :blowkiss:
My children are grown but if they were not I would be beside myself at the thought that any organization could take my children first and sort it out later. The ability of a government, any government, to reach into a home needs to be watched carefully.
I have heard so many rumors about what went on there, from pets all being killed to boys being tossed out, having to turn to prostitution to survive.
I wondered how many of those things were even true, even though they were being presented as fact.
I also believe CPS way way way overstepped their bounds, and my heart breaks for these children who were ripped from their mothers.
I hope the truth comes out and if charges need to be filed, they be filed appropriately.
I agree with you PSUfan. We all have a chance here to learn a better way for in the future dont we?
Did you ever read this before? It was written about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power. I first read it here at WS several years ago when a poster had it as their sig line.
"In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up."
-Martin Niemöller
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2008/04/96681.html
"Why you should care about the raids on the FLDS.
Imagine you live in an apartment complex. Someone calls a tip into the police alleging that a child living in one of the units has been raped. The police respond by surrounding the apartment complex with military vehicles. They storm the complex, remove each and every child from the apartment complex, and put each and every child in foster care. The offense of the parents of these children is that they live in the same apartment complex as a resident accused of child rape by an anonymous party. Next, imagine that the anonymous party's call is a hoax and a Judge refuses to return the children to their parents.
Could this happen in the United States? It has. The victims were the residents of theYFZ Ranch. The caller was a woman in Colorado with a history of making false accusations and anonymous telephone calls similar to this one.
My understanding is that some of the families in the YFZ Ranch are monogamous and there is a case of a single mother as well. These people too have had their children removed.
Why should you care?
Flash back in time. What does it mean when a government begins to oppress its citizens based on their religion and beliefs? What does it mean when a government displays its willingness to cart people away en masse? What does it mean when the people of a country sit back and let it happen? What is next? Will the come after the children of Muslims? Will they come after the children of anarchists, communists, or objectors to war? You can be confident that when they do, they will do it in the name of the safety and well being of the children.
Oh, the children. How tyrants fawn over children! They drop bombs on them in one place and declare their love for them in another. And so, when these tyrants tell us that it is all about the children we should question their true motivations.
Perhaps you find the lifestyle or beliefs of the FLDS offensive to your sensibilities. Catholic conquistadors thought the same of Native Americans. Invading protestant Puritans thought likewise of the kind locals who shared Thanksgiving with them in Plymouth. Nazis thought similarly about Jews. In all of these cases they knew the majority would turn a blind eye to violations of human rights and genocide.
I am not a member of the FLDS. I am a leftist radical. I care about the FLDS because they are human beings and their rights are being violated. I also care because I cannot avoid the question: "Whose rights next will be disregarded?" You should care too."
Sally
06-07-2008, 11:44 PM
I know that you have had much concern for this situation and these children SM. :blowkiss:
My children are grown but if they were not I would be beside myself at the thought that any organization could take my children first and sort it out later. The ability of a government, any government, to reach into a home needs to be watched carefully.
Glow, great links. Thanks so much for posting them. The bolded part of your statement above is the crux of my disagreement with this raid. Perhaps more frightening than the way this was handled, is that so many people support the actions of CPS.
Glow, great links. Thanks so much for posting them. The bolded part of your statement above is the crux of my disagreement with this raid. Perhaps more frightening than the way this was handled, is that so many people support the actions of CPS.
I agree Sally. Once a precedent is set we cannot control where (or against which people) it goes next.
Details
06-08-2008, 12:12 AM
If the FLDS was an apartment complex the children would not have been taken. This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked, run by a bunch of sex offenders, peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.
If any excuse other than religion were given for this, there'd be no one doubting that the children had to be removed until the parents agreed to stop handing their children's fates over to the sex offenders.
Details
06-08-2008, 12:14 AM
I agree with you PSUfan. We all have a chance here to learn a better way for in the future dont we?
Did you ever read this before? It was written about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power. I first read it here at WS several years ago when a poster had it as their sig line.
"In Germany they first came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up."
-Martin NiemöllerThis line could as well work for the children - first they come for your friends, then for your sisters, then for you. And through it all, your parents don't speak up.
Sally
06-08-2008, 12:47 AM
This line could as well work for the children - first they come for your friends, then for your sisters, then for you. And through it all, your parents don't speak up.
“The children arrived healthy and happy and left sick and crying.”
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/05/30/texas-supreme-court-return-the-children/
If the FLDS was an apartment complex the children would not have been taken. This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked, run by a bunch of sex offenders, peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.
If any excuse other than religion were given for this, there'd be no one doubting that the children had to be removed until the parents agreed to stop handing their children's fates over to the sex offenders.
Details,
We have been "fed" a lot of information in all of this. I think you and I both agree that we need to sift through it all and find out what is really true. In an attempt to do that I am asking you the following,
This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked,
do we know this to be true?
run by a bunch of sex offenders
who specifically?
peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.
I understand that this religion needs to bring itself up to a higher standard. I am sure that we cannot lump ALL the parents together anymore than I would want to be "lumped" together with "all" the parents in my subdivision OR apartment complex OR congregation.
“The children arrived healthy and happy and left sick and crying.”
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/05/30/texas-supreme-court-return-the-children/
Thanks Sally. This link and the words of these people carry a lot of weight with me. They were there. They are eye witnesses. They have nothing to gain by telling us what they are. In their words, there is the ring of truth.
Details
06-08-2008, 02:29 AM
Details,
We have been "fed" a lot of information in all of this. I think you and I both agree that we need to sift through it all and find out what is really true. In an attempt to do that I am asking you the following,
This is an apartment complex with doors to the outside locked,
do we know this to be true?
run by a bunch of sex offenders
who specifically?
peopled by parents who believe they must do whatever the sex offenders tell them to with their children.
I understand that this religion needs to bring itself up to a higher standard. I am sure that we cannot lump ALL the parents together anymore than I would want to be "lumped" together with "all" the parents in my subdivision OR apartment complex OR congregation.I can't think of how many more people I need to hear from - ex-FLDS, current FLDS, the media, LE - everyone agrees on these points. They were in a compound - not a place you can leave easily. Sex offenders - Warren Jeffs - even if we omit all of the bishops records, all of the records of underage marrieage of all of these guys, right there we have a convicted sex offender. The last - a key belief of FLDS, confirmed by ex-FLDS (including husbands kicked out for insufficient following of Jeffs) and current alike - they follow Warren Jeffs. They appeal in court for their children to have pictures of him while in foster care.
It's not about following a religion, it's about giving control of your children to another - when you do that, you should be judged by the person who you've given control to.
mykodiak
06-08-2008, 11:28 AM
There are two very interesting articles in today's edition of the San Angelo Standard Times giving CPS and law enforcement's side of the story. I will post a link as soon as it comes available. One article is giving Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran's viewpoint and is extremely detailed, the other gives CPS Angela Voss's viewpoint. From what I'm reading in these articles, the FLDS are cultivating outside sources to skew the story in their favor.
One thing that caught my attention in one article was the fact that Merrill Jessop refused to allow any men to enter the compound during the initial visit by CPS. Why would he do that? It makes no sense to me.
During the interviews of children and parents during the "raid", Doran said Men from the ranch moved around through the first night with night-vision goggles and videotaped CPS workers and law enforcement, Doran said. "There was never aggression on either side, " Doran said." We allowed them to move freely to the point they cut off cooperation and started tampering with evidence and moving children about the property and avoiding CPS." Innocent people don't feel a need to observe with night-vision goggles. Why would they feel they needed night-vision goggles to begin with unless it was for "another" reason?
Oh, btw...I have not verified this personally, but Sheriff Doran states that there were at least five Sarah's on the ranch...one named Sarah Barlow.
blaize
06-08-2008, 12:13 PM
I haven't followed this case as closely as I should and I have to admit up front that the FLDS give me the heebie-jeebies because of the way their interpretation of religion seems to oppress and disadvantage children & women.
Warren Jeffs is a sex offender plain and simple, he's also a dangerous manipulative man who doesn't seem to care what he does to the women and children suppossedly in his spiritual care. The bishops and the parents who are members of Jeffs cult do follow him and seem intent on sweeping his abuse under the carpet.
Having said that the circumstances leading up to the raid are of concern because as it seems now the calls were a hoax. Because of that it appears the authorities were looking for any reason to raid the compound and when the chance came they jumped at it prematurely & now the mess that's left will cloud any investigation that follows.
I'm sure CPS had the best of intentions but in their eagerness they seem to have jumped the gun and over stepped their boundaries or as the court ruling said 'abused their discretion'.
If the written reports of the mental health workers drafted in to help are accurate then yes, there's more of a problem here than just the FLDS.
mykodiak
06-08-2008, 12:32 PM
Link to the article on LE viewpoint. http://gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/08/environment-of-influence/
Link to the article on CPS viewpoint. http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/jun/08/cps-workers-recount-events/
southcitymom
06-08-2008, 02:22 PM
I agree Sally. Once a precedent is set we cannot control where (or against which people) it goes next.
Thank goodness for the Court in this matter, which did its job and did not bend to the furor of public opinion.
Pepper
06-08-2008, 03:10 PM
I just want to know if everyone who believes the FLDS over the CPS, have you read anything by the former FLDS? I don't think you can form an educated opinion without reading/watching one or more of the following:
"Escape" by Carolyn Jessop
"Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer
"Banking on Heaven" by Laurie Allen (DVD)
"Stolen Innocence" by Elissa Wall
Flora Jessop Autobiography, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/florajessopautobio.htm
Personal stories - Experiences from polygamy, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm
I think many of you are putting your own personal feelings as a mother onto these women. Unfortunately most of these FLDS women are brainwashed into believing their children belong to the cult and are not their own to raise. This results in distancing any love they may have had, and not having the normal bonding that we have as parents of our children.
I believe we all have the best interests of the children at heart, but some of you believe it is best for the children to continue to be raised in this cult, while others like me think it is best for the children to be deprogramed away from the influence of the cult.
I can't think of how many more people I need to hear from - ex-FLDS, current FLDS, the media, LE - everyone agrees on these points.
Well not everyone but you are right in saying that the majority agree on those points. That does not make them correct necessarily. At one time, the majority of people in leadership positions thought the earth was flat. Turns out, the facts proved otherwise. The lesson I take from that personally is to NEVER assume that what the leadership says or the majority thinks is automatically correct. The facts are what we should listen to. The facts can and should speak for themselves.
They were in a compound - not a place you can leave easily. Sex offenders - Warren Jeffs - even if we omit all of the bishops records, all of the records of underage marriage of all of these guys, right there we have a convicted sex offender. .
Yes he is and he is also a deluded religious leader who lost sight of the "road" a long time ago. Therefore he shouldn't be allowed to "drive" (speaking in a spiritual sense) but that is going to take time. The leadership of FLDS is going to have to go through an internal sifting.
The last - a key belief of FLDS, confirmed by ex-FLDS (including husbands kicked out for insufficient following of Jeffs) and current alike - they follow Warren Jeffs. They appeal in court for their children to have pictures of him while in foster care.
He is for now their spiritual leader or "prophet" who was his picture in a Bible hurting exactly? CPS said that state "policy" prohibits children in state custody having anything that has to do with a convicted felon.
Oh really? I wonder how many R. Kelly CDs the state has aggressively ripped out of foster homes across Texas? The truth is, that picture wasnt harming the children in any way in the few weeks that they were in TEMPORARY custody. Its just a picture and it could have easily been removed at a later date - after the state proved its case. As it was, it was personal property ( I can hardly think of anything a religious person would assume to be MORE their personal property than their own Bible) and not illegal. Once again, the state over assumed its reach.
It's not about following a religion, it's about giving control of your children to another - when you do that, you should be judged by the person who you've given control to.
I think if I understand what you are saying here is that the FLDS have given control over to Warren Jeffs and thus deserve what CPS did? I am asking for clarification as I dont want to assume something other than what you meant to say.
I read these two links mykodiak, thank you for posting them.
I think the timeline here is interesting.
First, the supreme court overturns the lower court. Added to that, mental health care workers give their eye witness testimony to the atrocities that occurred in the stadium where the women and children were being held.
The public starts to realize that the titillating tidbits they've been fed by CPS via the mainstream media may not be the real truth....
The story starts to get a larger voice in the mainstream media even following Gov Perry to France to talk about........................ why he was in France?........... No, to talk about the FLDS case. Im sure that is NOT what he wanted to be talking about while in France. In addition, he didn't do himself any favors by saying the FLDS should "just leave Texas", after his own state had just ordered that the FLDS not travel more than 60 miles without permission of the state. The right hand didn't seem to know what the left was doing.
Not surprisingly, 2 days (and a flurry of news articles) later, Doran and Voss, two of the point people in this whole affair are giving interviews. What is interesting, is to read the statements CPS made at their own website (I am assuming they haevnt been removed, they were still there last night) about how many underaged pregnant girls OR underage mothers they had. This latest article ( the first one)has added a word. They say there was the "appearance" of underage/pregnant teens. Having to carefully add that word "appearance" is the only way they can still try to sell the original story to us. So basically this raid happened not based on how things factually were but rather on how they "appeared".
In the second article, Voss keeps stating that CPS were not rude when they began taking the children at the ranch. I guess that is a perception statement, depending on whether you are CPS just doing your job, or a mom with a frightened child clinging to you in the middle of the night. Regardless, CPS and the FLDS agree on the FACT that Jessop had to tell the mothers to make the children go with CPS. That alone tells us that it was a tense and involuntary situation.
Voss doesn't seem to realize that much of the public outcry on the poor antics perpetrated by CPS are ones that occurred later at the stadium. She seems to keep stressing that everything at the ranch was calm while not realizing that the outcry coming from hearing the stories of the mental health workers was days later...
again, typical of government no one knows what the other hand is doing.
To me, these stories sound like an attempt at defending what CPS did. I would have been more impressed with them just being honest.
i cant help remembering Waco and Ruby Ridge. i hope nobody has to die for THIS mess.
most if not all religions have things that people dont like, or find offensive. i have to wonder if ALL of this is true. poligamy may be wrong, forced child brides are certainly wrong, but were ALL of them practicing these things? these children and their mothers are being punished for what others did. the children are too young to have been married more than once, and the child brides are the victims, not the criminals.
i think this could have been done differently, but for the life of me i cant see why they did this to the kids instead of the 'men' who supposedly married too much and too young.
my opinion, dont shoot!!
Pepper
06-08-2008, 06:00 PM
Well Glow, I think it depends on who you believe is the more credible source, the CPS or the FLDS.
For me there is no contest. If you've read even some of the former FLDS books or articles I've linked above, I would be very surprised if you continue to believe the FLDS were victims in this investigation.
Again, it is all in whom you choose to believe.
Pepper
06-08-2008, 06:04 PM
i cant help remembering Waco and Ruby Ridge. i hope nobody has to die for THIS mess.
most if not all religions have things that people dont like, or find offensive. i have to wonder if ALL of this is true. poligamy may be wrong, forced child brides are certainly wrong, but were ALL of them practicing these things? these children and their mothers are being punished for what others did. the children are too young to have been married more than once, and the child brides are the victims, not the criminals.
i think this could have been done differently, but for the life of me i cant see why they did this to the kids instead of the 'men' who supposedly married too much and too young.
my opinion, dont shoot!!
Mira, this is an ongoing investigation. The action was about protecting the children, not arresting the men! You can't arrest someone without evidence and due process. But you can protect children if you have reason to believe they are in danger. And that is what was done in this case.
I'm telling you that the majority of these women are not "mothers" in the same sense we think of mothers. If you have not read some of the links and books I've posted above, then you are not getting the full picture. Please read and listen to what former FLDS women have to say about this cult and the people in it.
mykodiak
06-08-2008, 06:21 PM
I keep picking up on tidbits that have been thrown around about CPS's horrible treatment of the FLDS women & children. I'm not saying that all are wrong. I'm not saying that all are right. One that stands out is the one about the baby/toddler that supposedly was left in a stroller for 24 hours with nobody giving it any attention. Well, there were still many, many FLDS women in the stadium with that baby. Why didn't THEY notice a child sitting alone? Why didn't they pick the child up and make sure that it had food and water? We've heard nothing about CPS refusing to allow anyone to touch that child, and yet all we hear is that the child was ignored by CPS. Where were these "wonderful FLDS mothers" when this child was sitting there?
Glow, How do you know that Doran and Voss aren't being honest? People defend the FLDS and say that they are merely stating the truth as they see it. Well, it is also possible that LE and CPS are doing the same.
CPS and the FLDS agree on the FACT that Jessop had to tell the mothers to make the children go with CPS. That alone tells us that it was a tense and involuntary situation. No, that tells me that the FLDS women are brainwashed to ONLY take orders from the FLDS men. Voss stated that she was surprised at how willingly they complied after he gave the order. It was described as "an incident" in court. It was not the standard for the reaction of all of the FLDS women, only a few. There was also no "ripping children from their mother's arms" as was publicized by FLDS sources. Many people were witnesses as to how calm and orderly the members were loaded onto buses with NO contact by investigators.
Hi Pepper!
I understand what you are saying. But doesnt every group have its dissadents? And do we let them define the group as a whole?
I have read Carolyn Jessop and Elissa Wall. I think they both are honest and are telling their story. I do not get the same impression of Flora Jessop. I have seen her interviews starting way back when she was on Oprah years ago. She doesnt resonant with me at all. Im sure that is just me personally and I would feel that way if she had left the Muslim faith and was speaking out against it too. She strikes me as someone with an axe to grind and while I will listen to her.....I cant assume that she is the definitive word. That would make as much sense as if someone wanted to know who I really was and what I was really about....so they went out and rounded up everyone who cant stand me and said "tell me about Glow?" The individual wouldnt get a well rounded picture. But if that individual went and talked to my neighbors, my friends, my children, my minister, AS WELL as my Ex husband and any enemies I might have, then the bits and fragments put together would begin to form a picture of who I really am and what I am all about. That is what I am trying to do here. I am not "pro" FLDS. I am not "anti" CPS. I AM "pro" families belong together and protected and I am "anti" governments legislating our behavoir as families other than in a VERY limited way.
The problem with this case is it makes me examine my prejudices. Do I think these people act funny and dress weird and have strange customs? Yes I do. Do I have a right to attempt to change them? No I dont. Where is it established that any of my ways and customs are better? The thing I keep seeing over and over is that the minute one mentions underaged girls being married to older men the "ick" factor goes through the roof and the ears shut down and there is a broad net thrown around the group as a whole. The thing is, as it has turned out, there have been innocent women and children and men caught in that net who have been treated horrendously. One for example, a female adult in her mid 20s the state had declared a child, legally married to one man and his only wife. They had a toddler together. Her husband asked to see her knowing birth was imminent. He was denied. She asked to be able to prove her age with a Utah birth certificate and a Utah drivers license and was told no. That proof was from out of state and therefore unacceptable. She ended up giving birth in custody and the state was with her but not her husband. The state was there so they could assume immediate custody of her newborn. When she was released from the hospital, CPS had nowhere to take her since they did not have a safe house available that was certified to foster a newborn. So they took her to CPS headquarters. I cant remember now if she had to spend the night camped in an office until they found an opening for her or not, but it doesnt matter. The whole situation was beyond ridiculous. Her toddler was yanked away, her husband was kept away, she was trying to give birth...the state couldnt even provide her a bed. This story and more just like it and some worse are part of what happened here.
PSUfan
06-08-2008, 06:44 PM
Mira, this is an ongoing investigation. The action was about protecting the children, not arresting the men! You can't arrest someone without evidence and due process. But you can protect children if you have reason to believe they are in danger. And that is what was done in this case.
I'm telling you that the majority of these women are not "mothers" in the same sense we think of mothers. If you have not read some of the links and books I've posted above, then you are not getting the full picture. Please read and listen to what former FLDS women have to say about this cult and the people in it.Look at myspace.. you have 12-13 yr old girls "pimping" themselves out. You have young teenage girls being indoctrinated into gangs. THONGS sold at preteen shops.
I personally know of a girl who was 13, and moved into an apartment with her 18 year old boyfriend. She was pregnant. Her grandmother (who raised her) gave permission for her to move in with him.
Do we take the babies from all of the above families?? Grab the kids, ask questions later. On to foster homes.. :rolleyes: and the horror of that. Good luck with that, because this type of behavior is rampant in our society.
CPS apparantly thought they were above the law in that raid. I do believe in protecting children, but this group is drunk on their own power. I hope they get their asses sued.
The FLDS raid was carried out on a HOAX. Warren Jeffs is a pedophile, and he is in jail for it, as he should be. To take all of these babies and children from a mother as punishment for Warren Jeffs, with NO evidence that these children were being harmed.. that is very scary to me.
The other side of the story on this is horrific.
I find it repugnant that this group advocates marrying young girls to older men, but I find the myspace profiles of so many young girls.. the sexual initiation into gangs, the latchkey kids turning tricks for spending money, to be equally repugnant.
At least the FLDS kids have some economic safety net, and a social role in their society.
On another note, I would bet that we still have arranged marriages with old school Asians in this country.
i cant help remembering Waco and Ruby Ridge. i hope nobody has to die for THIS mess.
most if not all religions have things that people dont like, or find offensive. i have to wonder if ALL of this is true. poligamy may be wrong, forced child brides are certainly wrong, but were ALL of them practicing these things? these children and their mothers are being punished for what others did. the children are too young to have been married more than once, and the child brides are the victims, not the criminals.
i think this could have been done differently, but for the life of me i cant see why they did this to the kids instead of the 'men' who supposedly married too much and too young.
my opinion, dont shoot!!
LOL on the dont shoot!
I dont think you have to worry about that Mira :blowkiss: Everybody discussing this is pretty calm and logical about things. The thing is the men offered to leave pretty early on but CPS said that is not their protocol. They are correct it isnt. But this situation was highly unusual and would have been an excellent time to review protocol. But that is the problem when you are dealing with an entity. It functions more like a machine or a robot. The "letter" of the law tends to violate or at least take precedence over the "spirit" of the law.
Look at myspace.. you have 12-13 yr old girls "pimping" themselves out. You have young teenage girls being indoctrinated into gangs. THONGS sold at preteen shops.
I personally know of a girl who was 13, and moved into an apartment with her 18 year old boyfriend. She was pregnant. Her grandmother (who raised her) gave permission for her to move in with him.
Do we take the babies from all of the above families?? Grab the kids, ask questions later. On to foster homes.. :rolleyes: and the horror of that. Good luck with that, because this type of behavior is rampant in our society.
CPS apparantly thought they were above the law in that raid. I do believe in protecting children, but this group is drunk on their own power. I hope they get their asses sued.
The FLDS raid was carried out on a HOAX. Warren Jeffs is a pedophile, and he is in jail for it, as he should be. To take all of these babies and children from a mother as punishment for Warren Jeffs, with NO evidence that these children were being harmed.. that is very scary to me.
The other side of the story on this is horrific.
I find it repugnant that this group advocates marrying young girls to older men, but I find the myspace profiles of so many young girls.. the sexual initiation into gangs, the latchkey kids turning tricks for spending money, to be equally repugnant.
At least the FLDS kids have some economic safety net, and a social role in their society.
On another note, I would bet that we still have arranged marriages with old school Asians in this country.
I like the fact that your post paints the big picture on what we are really looking at in our society today.
I keep picking up on tidbits that have been thrown around about CPS's horrible treatment of the FLDS women & children. I'm not saying that all are wrong. I'm not saying that all are right. One that stands out is the one about the baby/toddler that supposedly was left in a stroller for 24 hours with nobody giving it any attention. Well, there were still many, many FLDS women in the stadium with that baby. Why didn't THEY notice a child sitting alone? Why didn't they pick the child up and make sure that it had food and water? We've heard nothing about CPS refusing to allow anyone to touch that child, and yet all we hear is that the child was ignored by CPS. Where were these "wonderful FLDS mothers" when this child was sitting there?.
This information is coming from sworn statements from mental health workers that were invited by CPS to assist with the children. The events they are talking about happened AFTER the seperation of the mothers and children at the stadium. I dont know where the young women who were still there were. I dont know how CPS had things sectioned off. I do know that even when the mothers were still with the children at the fort they said it was mass confusion with women being woken up in the middle of the night to be interviewed and having to leave a crying child behind while they were....."interviewed" so I cant imagine the situation got better once they forcibly seperated the mothers and children later at the stadium.
Glow, How do you know that Doran and Voss aren't being honest? People defend the FLDS and say that they are merely stating the truth as they see it. Well, it is also possible that LE and CPS are doing the same.
I dont know that Doran isnt honest. In the earliest days of the raid I watched him interviewed on TV and he seemed very torn up about things and it seemed he very much wanted the FLDS to be seen as people. Now I think he is just an elected official that is fighting for his job. The FLDS are calling him out because they thought he was their friend and they feel betrayed. If he doesnt "stand up" for the state now, there is no way he will be reelected in November. If the FLDS do like some think and form a voting block I doubt he will get re elected at all. So he is just a man jockying for position and trying to keep his job IMO.
Angie Voss on the other hand is a liar. Doesnt matter to me that she hid behind her state issued badge to do it. Did you read her sworn testimony? She is who the judge relied on as the "expert" as to whether the children would remain in state custody. She said that she witnessed broken bones and or abuse in every home. That would later be proven to be a lie. I wonder how that woman sleeps at night.
No, that tells me that the FLDS women are brainwashed to ONLY take orders from the FLDS men. Voss stated that she was surprised at how willingly they complied after he gave the order. It was described as "an incident" in court. It was not the standard for the reaction of all of the FLDS women, only a few. There was also no "ripping children from their mother's arms" as was publicized by FLDS sources. Many people were witnesses as to how calm and orderly the members were loaded onto buses with NO contact by investigators.
Actually there was a ripping of children from their mothers arms. It happened at the stadium. Eyewitnesses said even the policemen were crying. Interesting that the Salvation Army wanted no part of this debacle.
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=48
As far as the women being brainwashed, do you really think they are? I see them as articulate and determined to keep their emotions in check. I dont know how they got through all of this without Valium personally.
In their society, they seem to be very structured in their patriarchal leadership. Its not dissimilar to the way we are taught from an early age to obey the police. With most law abiding society if we were told to evacuate or given some other order, most of us would follow it. These women were doing a similar thing. The law said one thing, their gut said another. A person who they viewed in a postion of leadership told them to acquiesce. I dont see these women as brainwashed anymore so then the rest of us that think we have to buy a certain breakfast cereal or drive a certain car or let Simon Cowell tell us who sings good.
Thank goodness for the Court in this matter, which did its job and did not bend to the furor of public opinion.
I know. I was suprised and heartened by that. I knew from the first days that there was no way that this was going to hold up, but my fear was that these children would be trapped in mid space for years while the courts wrangled. At least now the kids are out of the middle and the wrangling can proceed! :crazy:
Pepper
06-08-2008, 07:48 PM
I know. I was suprised and heartened by that. I knew from the first days that there was no way that this was going to hold up, but my fear was that these children would be trapped in mid space for years while the courts wrangled. At least now the kids are out of the middle and the wrangling can proceed! :crazy:
And back in danger, I fear...:(
I haven't followed this case as closely as I should and I have to admit up front that the FLDS give me the heebie-jeebies because of the way their interpretation of religion seems to oppress and disadvantage children & women.
Warren Jeffs is a sex offender plain and simple, he's also a dangerous manipulative man who doesn't seem to care what he does to the women and children suppossedly in his spiritual care. The bishops and the parents who are members of Jeffs cult do follow him and seem intent on sweeping his abuse under the carpet.
Having said that the circumstances leading up to the raid are of concern because as it seems now the calls were a hoax. Because of that it appears the authorities were looking for any reason to raid the compound and when the chance came they jumped at it prematurely & now the mess that's left will cloud any investigation that follows.
I'm sure CPS had the best of intentions but in their eagerness they seem to have jumped the gun and over stepped their boundaries or as the court ruling said 'abused their discretion'.
If the written reports of the mental health workers drafted in to help are accurate then yes, there's more of a problem here than just the FLDS.
This is defintely an interesting case isnt it Blaize? I know it has had my heart from the beginning. I have gathered from other posts that you have made in other threads that you are a great advocate for women and children. So am I. I think we all want the same thing for these children and that is the very best.
PSUfan
06-08-2008, 07:53 PM
And back in danger, I fear...:( I agree... foster care has a terrible track record, even though some foster parents are wonderful. I hope they do not end up in foster care.
From Wendy McElroy, raging feminist, which I am not :crazy: but here's her point of view
http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1577
I don't like the FLDS religious sect. I think the ideology that they inculcate into children is worse than drek -- it is dangerous to their intellectual and emotional well-being. But how is this different from families in which the parents are fundamentalist Christian or raving Marxists or radically Muslim? Are we going to have a State-imposed purity test for ideology before allowing parents to raise their children? Unless and until there is clear evidence of physical abuse, no third party has any business using force to step between a parent and a child. PERIOD.
The FLDS is one of those litmus tests by which you can separate true libertarians (who believe that rights apply to ALL individuals) from those who believe rights apply only to the nice people of the world. You know, OUR sort. Well...the FLDS is not my sort. It is not in the next county from being my sort. But each individual member of the FLDS has the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. etc. as I do.
Pepper
06-08-2008, 08:29 PM
From Wendy McElroy, raging feminest, which I am not :crazy: but here's her point of view
http://www.wendymcelroy.com/news.php?extend.1577
I don't like the FLDS religious sect. I think the ideology that they inculcate into children is worse than drek -- it is dangerous to their intellectual and emotional well-being. But how is this different from families in which the parents are fundamentalist Christian or raving Marxists or radically Muslim? Are we going to have a State-imposed purity test for ideology before allowing parents to raise their children? Unless and until there is clear evidence of physical abuse, no third party has any business using force to step between a parent and a child. PERIOD.
The FLDS is one of those litmus tests by which you can separate true libertarians (who believe that rights apply to ALL individuals) from those who believe rights apply only to the nice people of the world. You know, OUR sort. Well...the FLDS is not my sort. It is not in the next county from being my sort. But each individual member of the FLDS has the same right to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. etc. as I do.
But the Supreme Court has already ruled that a religion cannot trump the laws of the land. You cannot commit murder in the name of religion and be exempt from prosecution. Neither can you commit child abuse in the name of religion and be exempt from prosecution. Those laws take precidence over religious "freedom." And when the rights of a child are pited against the rights of an adult, the child should be given preference. A bunch of horney old men cannot rape a child and call it "religious teaching."
Pepper
06-08-2008, 08:30 PM
I agree... foster care has a terrible track record, even though some foster parents are wonderful. I hope they do not end up in foster care.
I hope they do. At least the ones in danger. But I also hope it is in a loving foster care environment and not a "Mrs. Hannigan" type.
mykodiak
06-08-2008, 08:34 PM
Well, Glow, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
I find it impossible to believe that they are not brainwashed when a young mother stands there WITH her husband and tells the media that she believes Warren Jeffs is "perfect in every way". That is not a free-thinker. But then, her information was always vetted by the men in that cult. :rolleyes:
As for Doran worrying about his job...I seriously doubt he's as worried as you seem to believe. The FLDS members still have to face possible criminal charges and voting him out won't automatically insure day-to-day acceptance by the rest of the county population. Playing dirty politics with votes will ultimately undermine any revenge they may desire today.
Assuming standard examinations for child abuse have been conducted, the FLDS children have been subject to genital exams and in some cases may have been subjected to manual penetration.
Many FLDS children have been placed in foster homes. Foster parents have been referred by DFPS to its Cultural Awareness Guide for Children from Eldorado. In this guide, the department makes the following unsubstantiated statement:
"Children [from the YFZ Ranch] are socialized to believe that sexual activity with adults is positive."
We have no idea how many damaging conversations are now being held between the children and foster parents regarding child/adult sexual activity.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/05/post_14.html
Well, Glow, we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
Nothing wrong with that, right?
I have enjoyed posting with you and hearing your thoughts. :blowkiss:
PSUfan
06-08-2008, 09:06 PM
I hope they do. At least the ones in danger. But I also hope it is in a loving foster care environment and not a "Mrs. Hannigan" type. The ones not in danger had no reason to be taken from their mothers.. If we were to yank "potentially in danger" children from families, we would be clearing out every inner city family in the country, and lots of upperclass ones as well. (see myspace youngsters). But I agree with you otherwise.
I know our hearts are in the right place here.
Report: Texas had secret plan to seize kids, moms and then separate them
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9477021
southcitymom
06-08-2008, 10:07 PM
I know. I was suprised and heartened by that. I knew from the first days that there was no way that this was going to hold up, but my fear was that these children would be trapped in mid space for years while the courts wrangled. At least now the kids are out of the middle and the wrangling can proceed! :crazy:
I am amazed at the speed with which this happened! I too felt this was going to drag out forever and harm more children and families in the process.
southcitymom
06-08-2008, 10:08 PM
Report: Texas had secret plan to seize kids, moms and then separate them
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9477021
WOW! :eek: Again, thank God for a Court with a clue.
southcitymom
06-08-2008, 10:14 PM
I just want to know if everyone who believes the FLDS over the CPS, have you read anything by the former FLDS? I don't think you can form an educated opinion without reading/watching one or more of the following:
"Escape" by Carolyn Jessop
"Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer
"Banking on Heaven" by Laurie Allen (DVD)
"Stolen Innocence" by Elissa Wall
Flora Jessop Autobiography, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/florajessopautobio.htm
Personal stories - Experiences from polygamy, http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories.htm
I think many of you are putting your own personal feelings as a mother onto these women. Unfortunately most of these FLDS women are brainwashed into believing their children belong to the cult and are not their own to raise. This results in distancing any love they may have had, and not having the normal bonding that we have as parents of our children.
I believe we all have the best interests of the children at heart, but some of you believe it is best for the children to continue to be raised in this cult, while others like me think it is best for the children to be deprogramed away from the influence of the cult.
I have read Under the Banner of Heaven (twice) and Jessop's autobiography as well as several of the personal stories at that last link. The FLDS do things that I don't consider right and, like most folks looking to protect their self interests, everything that comes out of their mouths is probably not the whole truth. That said, I absolutely believe that CPS behaved very very badly.
Should we hold members of an extremely powerful agency entrusted with caring for and protecting innocents to a higher standard of truth, compassion, care and kindness than members of a "fringe cult" group who have been unjustly ripped from their homes? Maybe!
blaize
06-08-2008, 10:26 PM
There's no maybe about it SCM, we should absolutely hold Government agencies, and the institutions of State and Law to a very high standard.
After all part of the covenant we have between governments and people in the democratic countries of the west is that we accept the rule of law in return for just laws and fair & equitable treatment of everyone.
I have read Under the Banner of Heaven (twice) and Jessop's autobiography as well as several of the personal stories at that last link. The FLDS do things that I don't consider right and, like most folks looking to protect their self interests, everything that comes out of their mouths is probably not the whole truth. That said, I absolutely believe that CPS behaved very very badly.
Should we hold members of an extremely powerful agency entrusted with caring for and protecting innocents to a higher standard of truth, compassion, care and kindness than members of a "fringe cult" group who have been unjustly ripped from their homes? Maybe!
A well written article on polygamy.
http://poligazette.com/2008/06/03/the-other-polygamy/
southcitymom
06-08-2008, 11:21 PM
There's no maybe about it SCM, we should absolutely hold Government agencies, and the institutions of State and Law to a very high standard.
After all part of the covenant we have between governments and people in the democratic countries of the west is that we accept the rule of law in return for just laws and fair & equitable treatment of everyone.
I agree, blaize - so much! My maybe was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, but there's no icon!!:)
Who is Rozita Swinton?
Rozita was placed in Tennessee's foster care system at 14.
Rozita had reported that her father had sexually abused her and she remained afraid of him, the state said.
After turning 19, Swinton lived with a Tennessee woman who was caring for foster children. "One of the counselors working with [Rozita] knew me and called to ask if I would take her in," the woman wrote in her book, After Disclosure, under the pen name Kate Rosemary.
in her book, she wrote Rozita, who also rejected interview requests, was "tragically abused" and had been diagnosed with multiple personality disorder.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9439383
Flora Jessop to Rozita after the raid:
"You got a bunch of people getting searched over a bunch of lies, honey. You've got to understand that's not all right."
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9439392
Offshoot polygamous Mormon sects are about as popular in West Texas as neo-Nazis are in Skokie. Texas law was changed in 2005, raising the marriage age to 16 from 14 explicitly to target polygamous sects. The police watched the sect’s compound, the Yearning for Zion Ranch, like hawks, but were stymied by a lack of evidence. What they needed was an outcry, a credible victim’s complaint.
In early April, they conveniently got one in the form of a phone call to a local abuse hot line...
In their first incursion, to search for “Sarah,” the S.W.A.T.-like team ransacked the place, scared the children and scooped up books, records, bibles and photographs. With the new evidence in hand, they got a second search warrant the next day that allowed them to take into custody all children on the ranch, of all ages and both genders, and to place them, at least temporarily, in foster care.
Nearly all of the mothers were separated from their children, the only exceptions being a handful of nursing mothers with infants under 12 months. Siblings were separated from each other and placed in different foster care locations hundreds of miles apart, making it impossible for many mothers regularly to see their children, a fact that was reported in the local press in Texas and Utah weeks before it made it into The New York Times.
The state painted all of the members of the community with the same broad brush. Individualized hearings, the state argued to the appellate court, would have taken “weeks or even months and would have been an extraordinary waste of judicial resources.”
In other words, why bother? They are all guilty.
In the intermediate appellate court, and in its appeal to the Texas Supreme Court, the state has baldly argued what appears to be the only evidence it really has against the mothers: their appalling religion.
Well, that is just not enough. In America, we punish conduct, not belief systems.
And by the way, the “Sarah” call was a hoax. She is apparently a troubled woman in Colorado Springs with a history of making such calls. Texas authorities don’t deny that, but they say it does not matter because, in effect, the ends justified the means.
Not always, and not this time.
Kathleen Peratis, a partner at the New York law firm Outten & Golden, is a board member emerita of Human Rights Watch.
http://www.forward.com/articles/13462/
Are any of you readers/posters here feminists? Is our duty to our gender to support only when we approve of the choice a woman is making, or is it our duty to support her right to chose?
This case in Texas seems to be causing a lot of angst for feminists. Some, like Gloria Allred, decry the FLDS as keeping women subject through the practice of polygamy. Others disagree
Interesting reading at this link
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9374627?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com
But while feminists will defend battered women every time, they have been strangely silent since Texas child welfare agents first yanked 460 children from their mothers.
I don't expect feminists to defend prostitution, pornography or the latest round of YouTube junior high catfights. So I'm not really surprised advocates for women's rights are reluctant to defend polygamy - certainly not the patriarchs and their complicitous wives, who teach their daughters to sweetly obey.
In my mind, a feminist defends every other woman's right to choose, no matter how repugnant the choice - posing for Playboy, sleeping with New York's governor for money or joining the WWF. At the very least, I hoped feminists would defend the FLDS women's right to keep their children while the state investigated.
But polygamy leaves feminists conflicted.
Feminists, now is your chance to speak up.
blaize
06-09-2008, 02:23 PM
Thanks for the compliment Glow, I guess I come across as an advocate for women and children because most of the crimes and abuse we read about here and in the media are of crimes against women and children. I'm not saying that there aren't men and older boys who aren't abused or mistreated but that women, girls and young children are the ones who are most likely to be the victims.
This case in particular though has some serious hot spots for us all, not least the known fact that Jeffs is a RSO but also that the potential for abuse of the most vulnerable members of the sect is a clear concern because of the perceived dominance and lack of accountability of the male members of the sect. In a way that aspect reminds me a little of the struggle to get the Catholic Church to accept that it wasn't ok to sexually abuse children & then just move the offending priest on to the next parish.
I think the FLDS have to be investigated and they have to allow themselves to be open to a certain degree of scrutiny but the institutions who are conducting the investigations have themselves to be transparent and accountable in their methods and conduct.
I'm sure everyone here wants what's best for the children but also that justice is seen to be done.
Keep up the good work Glow.
This is defintely an interesting case isnt it Blaize? I know it has had my heart from the beginning. I have gathered from other posts that you have made in other threads that you are a great advocate for women and children. So am I. I think we all want the same thing for these children and that is the very best.
blaize
06-09-2008, 02:37 PM
I believe in freedom of choice. If the adult women want to be part of a polygamous sect more power to them but when they have children they have to ensure that the children aren't mistreated or abused in any way first. I guess I'm saying that their loyalty to their children should come first and their loyalty to the sect second.
This isn't meant to imply that only FLDS women are faced with these choices. How many times have we seen women stay with men who are accused of physical or sexual abuse but the quote below is still the crux of the problem now facing the courts and the investigators no matter where we stand on the issue.
(Source (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9374627?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com))
The appeals court justices ruled that Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) had "simply no evidence" of imminent abuse, certainly not enough to remove all the children at once.
Thanks for the compliment Glow, I guess I come across as an advocate for women and children because most of the crimes and abuse we read about here and in the media are of crimes against women and children. I'm not saying that there aren't men and older boys who aren't abused or mistreated but that women, girls and young children are the ones who are most likely to be the victims.
This case in particular though has some serious hot spots for us all, not least the known fact that Jeffs is a RSO but also that the potential for abuse of the most vulnerable members of the sect is a clear concern because of the perceived dominance and lack of accountability of the male members of the sect. In a way that aspect reminds me a little of the struggle to get the Catholic Church to accept that it wasn't ok to sexually abuse children & then just move the offending priest on to the next parish.
I think the FLDS have to be investigated and they have to allow themselves to be open to a certain degree of scrutiny but the institutions who are conducting the investigations have themselves to be transparent and accountable in their methods and conduct.
I'm sure everyone here wants what's best for the children but also that justice is seen to be done.
Keep up the good work Glow.
You are such a clear thinker and I totally agree with you. Any chance we could get you to a) move to Texas and b) run for office in Schleicher County?
I agree with you Blaize about supporting adult women in their choices. Even if we dont particularly like their choice. From what I hear, women who run abuse shelters deal with this on a daily basis. It is the norm to see an abused wife come in seeking shelter in the middle of the night, children in tow...only to leave a few days later to go back to her spouse who will abuse her again.
Yet there are many women who recognize the support needed even though the choice is often undesirable.
I have been a little surprised by how many main stream women have turned an indifferent eye to the women of FLDS. Even more surprised by those who are actually derisive to them. I myself cannot do that unless I have a clear reason. I just dont feel I know enough about these women. I have never met one , never talked to one etc... so how can I say with any truth that they are bad? Or brainwashed? Who am I to say that? I would drive to Texas if I thought there was a way that I could actually interview some of these women, just to see for myself. I dont think I will need to do that though. I think that now that the mainstream media is not so afraid of the "ick factor" that marked the early days of this case, there will be fair minded lawyers and health care workers that will be willing to speak out. And there will be journalists that will write their words.
One womans story,
This is Sarah's story.
Sarah is the mother of 5. She was rounded up in the raid at YFZ and held as an underage mother. She is 37. She says she didnt know whether to cry in frustration or laugh at the compliment of being assumed to be 18 at the age of 37!
Fortunately for Sarah, she is a registered nurse and is putting together a life for her children in a small apartment with a strip of a garden in the backyard.
Her husband was thrown out of FLDS leadership by Warren Jeffs and is also happy the children are out of state custody.
Sarah feels lucky in one respect, her children were all housed together, unlike many children. Her oldest daughter (13) speaks of how hard the nights were n the little ones. She says her little sister cried almost every night. Im sure that is a lie though as CPS spokes people told us they were adjusting nicely :rolleyes:
here is the rest of Sarah's story
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700231372,00.html?pg=2
A lot of people, myself included have been wondering about the CPS and Texas LE spin on this case. One term that keeps getting bandied around about the women is "brainwashed". I guess at least some of them are not brainwashed enough that they cannot read what is being said about them. This woman can really write! She uses words I had to go look up, like escutcheon.:crazy:
Here are the words of Maggie Jessop, she sounds pretty feisty to me!
BOLDED WORDS ARE HERS
"So, you want to hear from the FLDS women, huh? Okay, you asked for it! However, I ought to warn you that I may not have it within my psychological or emotional capacity to communicate appropriately or effectively due to the widespread supposition that I belong to an uneducated, underprivileged, information-deprived, brainless, spineless, poor, picked on, dependent, misled class of women identified as “brain-washed”. But, I’ll give it my best shot."
Im sure she never heard of us here at WS but she pays homage in passing,to what we do here at websleuths!
"I don’t get a thrill by running up and down the state sleuthing out the location of my children."
Her position on child abuse:
"I would never allow my innocent children to be hurt or abused, not physically, not emotionally, not psychologically, and especially not sexually. If there was actually a “perpetrator” in my household, a person who was abusive in any way, I would be the first one to turn them in to the law. I wouldn’t stand for abuse for two seconds. How can the general public who is so saturated with moral crime point the finger at us? How can you do it with even a speck of clear conscience?"
Her thoughts on being brainwashed:
"Who is brainwashed after all, may I ask? The closest I come to being brainwashed is the fact that I have a clean mind. Excuse me, please, but I feel completely indignant that authorities in the state of Texas would insult my level of intelligence, however minimal it may be, and label me a half-wit when I have witnessed hundreds of numbskulls, CPS workers, law-enforcement officials, and even the great and the noble, the epitome of unflinching courage and timeless valor, the Texas Rangers, lower themselves so pathetically, descending in all their pride and power, without conscience responding in blind obedience to orders from the Gestapo, and they call me brainwashed? Amazing."
Her feelings:
"I don’t know how long it will take, but I will continue to lug around my fifty pound briefcase as I continue my search for my children. You know, that briefcase really ought to be a diaper bag. My day planner really ought to be filled with plans and ideas for a day of learning and improvement with my children, Besides that, my cell phone really ought to be a microphone in which to sing soft lullabies to four hundred broken-hearted children to fill their hearts with courage and the hope of a new tomorrow. My pillow really ought to be a place where I can rest my weary head after a satisfying day not a sponge of sorrow to mop and absorb the tears of a childless mother."
one more thing....
"I have eyes and ears, not to mention a big mouth, and I have a heart to feel my way through life, and I have a brain to reason and discern and choose."
gosh she is starting to sound a lot like "us" isnt she?
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=3
letter by Maggie Jessop, Mother of four children in captivity
Maggie has updated her thoughts since she found out the children would be released.
I have been trying very hard to look at the feelings and thoughts of the women who are experiencing this scrutiny of their way of life. I "thought" that I comprehended how difficult it was for them. But really I had no idea. I just had the big picture thoughts. Things like how hard it would be to have your children taken by force. How hard to have a nursing baby taken away. The guilt you would feel that your child now knows that there are some things you cant keep them safe from, that kind of thing.
But just the sheer day to day practical things I really never thought of. If someone took my child and I had to move to another town and get a job that would be traumatic. But at least I have my own things to move with me. I have my mixing bowl that makes the best bread dough and all my dishes that I am familiar with and so on. These women are having to get all of that for the first time.
I think the shock of going from a home that I live in now to trying to live in an institutional setting would be very hard for me. These women are experiencing just the opposite. They are going from a big well organized setting of communal living to having to literally start from scratch. I really had no idea.
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=46
"To make a long story short, our prior situation was such that, for example, a single kitchen equipped with many varied and quality appliances could adequately serve a dozen mothers and children; but now, with the need to scatter, that presents an interesting circumstance. Now, I need my own kitchen appliances, garden tools, office equipment, sewing commodities, etc., etc., etc., a condition of inefficiency. Now, I need to stock a home with food. I used to have a nice garden filled with home-grown vegetables, and a dairy to provide milk, butter, cheese, cream, yogurt, and ice cream. I used to have access to a wheat grinder to provide fresh wheat flour, and I also had a commercial bread mixer available to make large batches, as well as a fine commercial oven to turn out many loaves of steaming hot, fresh, wholesome bread.
I have been spoiled, I admit. I have lived very, very well in my chosen lifestyle, and now I find I must stoop to a strange and inadequate environment. I feel a little lost and bewildered, yet grateful and determined. I know that this, too, shall pass, and eventually, all wrong will be made right. I want to express my gratitude to any and all that have voiced kind and sympathetic expressions in our behalf."
I think it is an amazing dichotomy that we view them as living in opression while she felt "spoiled" by her rich life.
gosh she is starting to sound a lot like "us" isnt she?
NO! Ignorance may be bliss, but it's ignorance all the same. If one chooses to live a life cut off and uninformed without choices, that's fine, but free will is also a god given right. They live lives isolated in fear. The whole set-up is to defraud, to deny rights to everyone but the elders.
FLDS Blog (http://flds101.blogspot.com/2008/05/flds-beliefs-101-apostates.html)
Hi Lola, thank you for posting, I was lonely!
I dont like the way they isolate themselves either. Other religious groups (like the Amish) are able to live in and yet apart from modern society. I think it would fare better for the FLDS if they did that too. Do you think maybe it is the polygamy that makes them isolate? I dont think it is the money because in every religion people hand the money upwards. Religous leaders of every faith are some of the richest among us right?
Thanks again for sharing your take on things!
Ive been thinking a lot about the isolation of the FLDS women.
It does seem their isolation is by choice though. These women have cell phones iPods, blackberrys computers etc... They know what is going on. Then know that we in the outside world are calling them "brainwashed". They are responding to those statements with statements of their own.
It was interesting hearing what Dorothy Emma had to say. She must be a rare FLDS member. She was not born or married in to the church. She went seeking a faith and decided on this one.
She was not one of them when she heard of the Utah raid back in 44 but I like her style...when she heard the negativity she said
“I have never met any of these people, so I don’t feel that I can judge them.”
good on her for that.
A couple of years later she became an FLDS member. This was her impression-
These people are Builders, Workers, Thinkers, Doers—hardly the oppressed or deprived people we’ve been accused of being.
I am here of my free choice. I have never been forced or coerced. I am living a full and rewarding life. My wonderful husband and I have raised thirteen children. Each one was yearned for, planned for, prayed for, loved, and cherished. I taught in elementary schools for twenty-three years and practiced as a speech pathologist in two public schools. I have hiked many mountains and have led children and grandchildren on several long hikes. I grow herbs, teach about their properties and uses, and make all kinds of herbal “concoctions” for health and well-being. As a farmer/gardener, I've raised everything from corn and apples to gladiolus and sweet peas.
Does that sound as if I have been “brainwashed,” forced, coerced against my better judgment, or ill-treated? I say I am very blessed and privileged to be where the Lord led me, so tenderly cared for, and with my free agency well in place!
Here is the link if you want to look at her picture. She doesnt have the "odd" look that bother some. She actually looks pretty awesome and interesting.
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=38
PSUfan
06-09-2008, 11:34 PM
Hi Lola, thank you for posting, I was lonely!
I dont like the way they isolate themselves either. Other religious groups (like the Amish) are able to live in and yet apart from modern society. I think it would fare better for the FLDS if they did that too. Do you think maybe it is the polygamy that makes them isolate? I dont think it is the money because in every religion people hand the money upwards. Religous leaders of every faith are some of the richest among us right?
Thanks again for sharing your take on things! Outside of the polygamy thing, and the sicko pedophile leader, they remind me of our Lancaster County Amish... many of them relatives of mine. Although, from what I have read, the FLDS group takes in LOTS of money with public assistance, and the Amish rarely, if ever, accept welfare money.
They had to fight legally to protect their way of life as well. Allowing their children to work on the farm, younger than most kids are allowed to work. Arlen Specter was always an advocate for their rights.
They have been forced to adapt to society in some ways.. having lights on their buggies, and turn signals.
I am enjoying your posts, and links. It really is the other side of the story.
Outside of the polygamy thing, and the sicko pedophile leader, they remind me of our Lancaster County Amish... many of them relatives of mine. Although, from what I have read, the FLDS group takes in LOTS of money with public assistance, and the Amish rarely, if ever, accept welfare money.
They had to fight legally to protect their way of life as well. Allowing their children to work on the farm, younger than most kids are allowed to work. Arlen Specter was always an advocate for their rights.
They have been forced to adapt to society in some ways.. having lights on their buggies, and turn signals.
I am enjoying your posts, and links. It really is the other side of the story.
I think knowing the Amish gives you a perspective on fundamentalist groups that mainstream America doesn't get. I had the privilege of meeting some Mennonite people in the past that helped me to look at things in a completely different way then I would have. It really is all about stretching the boundaries of our minds and our "known" world to try to encompass the thoughts and feelings of those different than ourselves. That shouldn't be hard, but in reality it seems to be the hardest thing for us to do.
mykodiak
06-10-2008, 08:25 AM
Texas is receiving a lot of flack from people that believe we are persecuting the YFZ residents because of their religion, or their way of life, or their appearance. No, the focus is the continued belief among the YFZ residents that underage marriage and pregnancies is perfectly "normal". Well, it may be in other countries, but it is ILLEGAL in all 50 states of the USA. Accept it...or leave. That's pretty simple, right?
I think what is being avoided or deliberately overlooked here is the fact that the YFZ residents have CHOSEN to tie themselves to Warren Jeffs. They have CHOSEN to continue to believe in his teachings and commands. They have CHOSEN to ignore the fact that he is a CONVICTED sex offender. So, to my mind, it really doesn't matter if one or two within the group don't actually physically abuse their children. They have CHOSEN to place their children within this type of environment, therefore they are willingly and deliberately placing them in harms way. That also shows me that they are "brainwashed" because they have CHOSEN to continue to abide by Jeff's commands. Otherwise they would have left the YFZ ranch in order to live their way of life elsewhere.
Well there are a lot of unknowns about this case. For example I did not know that people are giving Texas flack. All the polls indicated that people thought what Texas did was great. To me it seems that the whole topic was divided into the FLDS supporters (mostly themselves) and the CPS supporters (A HUGE number). I have felt very alone in my viewpoint at times as I fall in between. I am not a FLDS member and dont believe their basic religious precepts even if you were to leave the under age marriage thing out of it. Once you add that in then of course I dont sponsor a thing like that. The FLDS themselves have made a public policy statement on underage marriage, they have said they will change it. What more do people want? Isnt that the problem? Havent they admitted it? Honestly up until 2005 the state of TEXAS said a girl could marry at 14. Is the state of Texas just as perverted as the FLDS or were they when they allowed a girl of 14 to marry? Is Texas a better state now that they brought the law up to 16? If so, then if the FLDS does what the state did shouldn't the whole thing be water under the bridge just like it apparently is with the state of Texas?
On the matter of Warren Jeffs. Yes he is a nutball and he is restrained. So that's good. He is limited in what he can do. One good thing that came out of this raid is that the whole hierarchy of the FLDS leadership seems to be in flux now. In reading their recent history it seems that a lot of more balanced men got run off as "trouble makers" in Warrens megalomaniac rise to power. He got where he is because of faith. Faith is the ability to believe without concrete evidence. He played (whether wittingly or unwittingly) the people around him and under him. He is a mentally ill man with delusions of grandeur in a power position within a religious structure. He is not the first. Have you ever read the history of the popes of the Catholic church? There were a few Warren Jeffs there. How about the head of the Church of England? He married young women too, only once he was done with them he chopped their heads off. That almost makes a "spiritual marriage for eternity" sound like a good thing doesn't it? Or reaching into more recent history, how about a man who enslaves a young underage girl and impregnates her? Add to that she is his wifes sister. How shocking! Yet that is what Thomas Jefferson did. So what should we do? Well according to the wisdom of the CPS of Texas we should rip his picture out of all the books we can find it in. Heck why stop there...we might as well throw out the Constitution while we are at it since his tainted hands were all over that too!
See where this is all leading? Nowhere. It leads nowhere. It takes time when you are dealing with a leader to unseat him in peoples minds. Especially when he got put in that position mostly because of faith. People need time to see him for what he is. Politics and religion always walk along hand in hand. The politics of the FLDS faith are that they are seeing now that they have to bend. The ones who have been ousted by Jeffs now see the foundation he stands on cracking. Within those "cracks" are the openings for another leader to take hold. The people that look up to them are praying and waiting to see what "God" as presented through their leaders wants them to do next. That process all takes time.
I guess the part that has me so amazed here is the hate being shown towards this group. I still cant figure out where it is coming from or what it is specifically about. Is it the underage thing soley? Well if it is then things should quiet down quickly now that they have addressed that. Is it the polygamy among consenting adults? Well, if that is the case, what a perfect opportunity for us to examine our OWN prejudices. If its not limited to those two things then it must be that they are just to "different" and that is really sad if that is what it boils down to. It wasn't that long ago that native Americans were thought to be intellectually inferior to white people and black people had to drink out of a separate fountain. I had niavely thought that as a country we had moved away from that type of thinking. I am beginning to wonder if we really have let go of our prejudices or if we have merely just "reassigned" them.
SewingDeb
06-10-2008, 02:39 PM
I think the "hatred" comes from what we have heard from those who escaped the FLDS. If even half of what they say is true, and I believe it is, evil permeates the air on their compounds.
It's not just polygamy or being different. They have an evil leader who has led them down the wrong path for a long time.
Hi SewingDeb,
I would think that if I wanted to know who you (SewingDeb:blowkiss:) really were as a person and I only asked your detractors that I wouldn't get a very clear idea of who you are. I would also need to talk to your friends and most of all YOU. Then I could get a good sense of who you are.
I have read/heard horror stories from people who have left the Catholic church too. I think a lot of us have. That doesn't make us hate the Catholic church though. Why not?
thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!
"CPS is an agency that frequently runs amok in many states, an out-of-control organization that regularly tramples on the rights of adults accused of abusing children. The horror stories of parents humiliated by the storm trooper tactics of this bunch of state bureaucrats are lengthy.
I certainly understand that CPS has an unenviable task. It is extraordinarily difficult to weed out fact from fiction, particularly in a culture where more and more children are perfectly capable of spinning tall tales in order to exact revenge upon a strict parent.
But the mantra of "protecting our children" shouldn't give a state agency the ability to shred the constitutional rights of each and every adult who comes into CPS's crosshairs.
There is obviously a peculiarity about the FLDS group. They have largely isolated themselves from the world, believing in bizarre concepts like men having numerous spiritual wives and following the teachings of the jailed "prophet" Warren Jeffs.
But when the day comes that the government comes breaking down the doors and tries to make children permanent foster or adoptive children because of the peculiar religious beliefs of a particular group, our nation is in big, big trouble.
I only hope that this fiasco will be a wake-up call to legislators and citizens about the way an agency like Child Protective Services can spin out of control and ruin people's lives right under our collective noses.
Already, the state of California has made no secret of its intention to outlaw homeschooling. It's fairly obvious that state-funded and heavily-unionized teachers don't take too kindly to loving parents who choose to educate their children at home. So could the homeschooling community in America become the next group the government goes after?
You bet your life it could.
Recently, someone shared a quote that seemed to perfectly fit what the government has been trying to do to the FLDS community in West Texas. It may very well have been spoken by one of the numerous bureaucrats who have attempted to justify this tale of the state taking all of these children from their mothers and fathers. It was written in 1925 and it said that the government can pull off pretty much anything as long as it's done under the guise of protecting the children.
Astute history students probably recognize the quote.
It was written by Adolph HItler in 'Mein Kampf.' "
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/MikeGallagher/2008/05/23/whose_kids_are_they_anyway?page=1
blaize
06-10-2008, 03:13 PM
Glow I think people can't separate the FLDS from Warren Jeffs the Sex Offender. They see the FLDS as being his project where the women and children are kept barefoot and brainwashed so to speak.
It may not be right but even the mere suggestion that any of the parents tolerated Jeffs molesting their daughter or marrying her off when she was a mere kid to some old geezer really hits a sore spot for a lot of people.
It shouldn't have to be a them or us situation where the families have to repudiate their religion to live their lives safely with their children but the FLDS need to disassociate from Jeffs because that man is trouble.
I understand the point you're making about the State of Texas only raising the age that a girl could marry from fourteen to sixteen in 2005 so now that the FLDS have brought themselves into line with Texas that aspect should at least be easier to monitor.
SewingDeb
06-10-2008, 03:32 PM
Hi SewingDeb,
I would think that if I wanted to know who you (SewingDeb:blowkiss:) really were as a person and I only asked your detractors that I wouldn't get a very clear idea of who you are. I would also need to talk to your friends and most of all YOU. Then I could get a good sense of who you are.
I have read/heard horror stories from people who have left the Catholic church too. I think a lot of us have. That doesn't make us hate the Catholic church though. Why not?
thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!
You're welcome. You have a good point and that's why I said if you believe only half of what you hear from those who have left. Too many are saying the same things. The lost boys really bother me. I'm sure it's not all bad but there is enough wrong that it needs correcting.
I'm glad they say the underage marriages will stop but with only needing the parents' signatures to continue it, I don't believe it really will stop. Things will go on as usual but under the watchful eye of the state. Maybe this will prevent some abuse. I hope so.
SewingDeb
06-10-2008, 03:33 PM
I agree with you Blaize.
You're welcome. You have a good point and that's why I said if you believe only half of what you hear from those who have left. Too many are saying the same things. The lost boys really bother me. I'm sure it's not all bad but there is enough wrong that it needs correcting.
I'm glad they say the underage marriages will stop but with only needing the parents' signatures to continue it, I don't believe it really will stop. Things will go on as usual but under the watchful eye of the state. Maybe this will prevent some abuse. I hope so.
Yes, the lost boys really bother me too. I happen to have 3 boys and they are my heartbeats. On the other hand I remember reading an article that was entitiled The State of Texas Creates It's Own Lost Boys" it was about the state of foster care in Texas and how the boys are turned out of care at 18 with no real training and no resources.
That is a fact that can be looked up just as easily as the story of the lost boys of FLDS can. Do you think that fact will make even one person that is in favor of the raid on FLDS take note? It wont. And that is what puzzles me here. Its like the facts dont matter.
SewingDeb
06-10-2008, 04:00 PM
That's true of most states and foster care. At 18 they are on their own. Some states are changing that, of which I am glad.
---------
You said:
Do you think that fact will make even one person that is in favor of the raid on FLDS take note? It wont. And that is what puzzles me here. Its like the facts dont matter.
__________________
For the lost boys, 18 is not the magic number. Many of these boys are much younger and very naive...something I don't think can be said of most foster children.
The facts do matter...the lost boys don't even have a birth certificate or social security number. That makes it hard to try to get further schooling or a job. Foster kids are at an advantage there.
Glow I think people can't separate the FLDS from Warren Jeffs the Sex Offender. They see the FLDS as being his project where the women and children are kept barefoot and brainwashed so to speak.
It may not be right but even the mere suggestion that any of the parents tolerated Jeffs molesting their daughter or marrying her off when she was a mere kid to some old geezer really hits a sore spot for a lot of people.
It shouldn't have to be a them or us situation where the families have to repudiate their religion to live their lives safely with their children but the FLDS need to disassociate from Jeffs because that man is trouble.
I understand the point you're making about the State of Texas only raising the age that a girl could marry from fourteen to sixteen in 2005 so now that the FLDS have brought themselves into line with Texas that aspect should at least be easier to monitor.
Gosh Blaize you put things so well....I wish I could do that. I think we will see the FLDS move away from Jeffs. That is a good thing.
I still am intersted in why so many people seem SO shocked and vitrolic towards Jeffs and act like what he has done justifies the actions of CPS.
Bernard Law was an Arch Bishop in the Catholic church. He had to resign because of his knowledge that priests under him were molesting young children while he did nothing. He only reassigned the priests if there was a complaint, giving them a new area in which to molest. Some of these priests molested children for over 23 years. Law was finally forced to resign his post in 2002. He was merely reassigned to an administrative post within the governing body of the Holy See in the Vatican. In 2005 he was selected to conductone of the funeral masses for the Pope. Why werent people hopping mad about that?
If you are like me, I barely remember the name of Bernard Law even though it made the news at the time. But you take men like that crazy whacked out David Koresh or this one, Warren Jeffs and people go nuts. If the crime here is the molestation of children then why are people not equally upset on behalf of ALL children. Whether they are Catholic or FLDS or Branch Davidian?
That's true of most states and foster care. At 18 they are on their own. Some states are changing that, of which I am glad.
---------
You said:
Do you think that fact will make even one person that is in favor of the raid on FLDS take note? It wont. And that is what puzzles me here. Its like the facts dont matter.
__________________
For the lost boys, 18 is not the magic number. Many of these boys are much younger and very naive...something I don't think can be said of most foster children.
The facts do matter...the lost boys don't even have a birth certificate or social security number. That makes it hard to try to get further schooling or a job. Foster kids are at an advantage there.
I agree with you SewingDeb. ALL boys should get the start they need and I too am glad that states are working to change that. It is ironic though that the FLDS lost boys are considered more "innocent" to the ways of the world than foster kids and yet that is exactly where some people (Im not saying you, I am speaking in generalities here) would like to put the FLDS boys and girls?
SewingDeb
06-10-2008, 04:29 PM
It is ironic, Glow.
southcitymom
06-10-2008, 04:29 PM
I think the "hatred" comes from what we have heard from those who escaped the FLDS. If even half of what they say is true, and I believe it is, evil permeates the air on their compounds.
It's not just polygamy or being different. They have an evil leader who has led them down the wrong path for a long time.
My biggest question about this viewpoint is that the same people that call all these women brainwashed liars over and over again are happy to believe that the escaped women are truthful.
I guess I just see so many shades of grey. The woman who left are disgruntled. I'm sure some of what they say is true, but it's not such a stretch to think they may want to harm the leader the left and use their stories to do that.
Jeffs is, without question, a nutter and the best thing that has come from this raid is the flux in leadership positions at the ranch.
But the hatred was consistantly thrown not just at Jeffs but at these women, who we may now fairly deduce were abused by CPS just like they were abused by Jeffs. It still doesn't make sense to me.
I have read a lot on this case and on the FLDS in general. I cannot fairly come to the conclusion that their way of life was permeated with evil. There's a lot about their way of life that I, frankly, find enviable and worthwhile.
southcitymom
06-10-2008, 04:30 PM
Glow I think people can't separate the FLDS from Warren Jeffs the Sex Offender. They see the FLDS as being his project where the women and children are kept barefoot and brainwashed so to speak.
It may not be right but even the mere suggestion that any of the parents tolerated Jeffs molesting their daughter or marrying her off when she was a mere kid to some old geezer really hits a sore spot for a lot of people.
It shouldn't have to be a them or us situation where the families have to repudiate their religion to live their lives safely with their children but the FLDS need to disassociate from Jeffs because that man is trouble.
I understand the point you're making about the State of Texas only raising the age that a girl could marry from fourteen to sixteen in 2005 so now that the FLDS have brought themselves into line with Texas that aspect should at least be easier to monitor.
Great post, blaize. I think you sum it up very well.
SewingDeb
06-10-2008, 04:38 PM
SCM, I've never felt hatred for the women, or any of the FLDS. I am angered that anyone has to be raised this way and that their choices in life are taken away from them. They are not even allowed to choose who they marry. They certainly don't have the freedom of religion that the rest of us have.
Do you really see a new leader on the horizon? I think the loyalty to Jeffs will withstand all of this. They truly think he speaks for God.
They are being led by a sociopath, imo, and nothing but evil can come from that. Yes, some parts of their lives are enviable if you have ever wished for a simpler way of life, but the patriachal attitude is something I have always fought against in my own life and I don't wish it on others, especially if it not something they choose.
southcitymom
06-10-2008, 05:08 PM
SCM, I've never felt hatred for the women, or any of the FLDS. I am angered that anyone has to be raised this way and that their choices in life are taken away from them. They are not even allowed to choose who they marry. They certainly don't have the freedom of religion that the rest of us have.
Do you really see a new leader on the horizon? I think the loyalty to Jeffs will withstand all of this. They truly think he speaks for God.
They are being led by a sociopath, imo, and nothing but evil can come from that. Yes, some parts of their lives are enviable if you have ever wished for a simpler way of life, but the patriachal attitude is something I have always fought against in my own life and I don't wish it on others, especially if it not something they choose.
I'm sorry, SewingDeb. I didn't mean my post to intimate that you felt hatred towards them - I was speaking generally in response to your explanation. I just saw that alot in this thread and other places - and I think that enmity probably comes from the belief that all these mothers are subjecting their children to horrors.
I do think there is the potential for new leadership. Only time will tell.
As for the patriarchal attitude - it's not for me, but some desire and believe in it. My mother, for instance, would like nothing better than for a man to keep her safe and lead her around and tell her what to do. That works for her. I know others like her.
I agree that some of the women who live the lifestyle of the FLDS may not have chosen it, per se, as we think of chosing. However, all of us are sold what we are sold as children and decide where to go with it as adults. Frankly, many of these women sound tough, fiesty and headstrong. I respect that they believe in their way of life, and I'll bet many of them feel very free in that belief.
A one second heartbreaker
http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Videos.php?VID=4
{he is saying "I dont want to go" for those without sound on your computer}
The interesting thing about this clip is when you compare it to media statements about how sensitive LE and CPS were around the children. At around the 2:09 mark on the tape there is a sheathed weapon inches from the little girls face. It would be hard to see how the children didn't notice those.
http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Videos.php?VID=29
This one speaks to the crowded conditions and the atmosphere that has been described as" hurricane Katrina like"
the biggest thing I saw that bothered me was the blue tub they were expected to use to bathe their children in.
All in all its no wonder that these people are angry.
http://www.captivefldschildren.org/Videos.php?VID=5
In the early days when I would read comments from readers at the various news sites covering this case, I felt I was in the minority in thinking the children should be returned. Turns out that emails 14:1 felt the same way. I guess while inaccurate, that is what I was "supposed" to think. Seems the governers office wanted it that way....
Public sentiment, as reflected in contacts with the governor of Texas, ran 449:32 in favor of sending the kids home- that's 14:1, and that was within the first three days. So the state set up a propaganda arm:
State officials kept tabs on media reports from across the country and circulated talking points to ensure public comments stayed consistent and on target.
Kathy Walt, Perry's deputy chief of staff, said in an April 18 e-mail that if media were "overlooking" testimony about alleged abuse, the staff should give reporters court documents and "talk the issues over with them."
also in print here, proof that the government planned to lie to the mothers, the ones that CPS said were complicating identification by "lying"to CPS :rolleyes:....
The women were to be told only that they were moving to the coliseum, the e-mails show.
http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9537072
southcitymom
06-10-2008, 07:46 PM
In the early days when I would read comments from readers at the various news sites covering this case, I felt I was in the minority in thinking the children should be returned. Turns out that emails 14:1 felt the same way. I guess while inaccurate, that is what I was "supposed" to think. Seems the governers office wanted it that way....
Public sentiment, as reflected in contacts with the governor of Texas, ran 449:32 in favor of sending the kids home- that's 14:1, and that was within the first three days. So the state set up a propaganda arm:
State officials kept tabs on media reports from across the country and circulated talking points to ensure public comments stayed consistent and on target.
Kathy Walt, Perry's deputy chief of staff, said in an April 18 e-mail that if media were "overlooking" testimony about alleged abuse, the staff should give reporters court documents and "talk the issues over with them."
also in print here, proof that the government planned to lie to the mothers, the ones that CPS said were complicating identification by "lying"to CPS :rolleyes:....
The women were to be told only that they were moving to the coliseum, the e-mails show.
http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9537072
Wow - that's fascinating! I felt the exact same way. Amazing numbers.
You did? I didn't know that! I tell you this case has haunted me. I am usually a very middle of the road person and I couldn't see where I was missing the point.
I guess all of regardless of where we stood on the issue, were just doing the best we could to try and understand, given the fact that we werent being told the real truth. I have zero respect right now for Governor Rick Perry and his office.
This is really despicable and manipulative. It really goes to show that it is all about the politics and these type of people would be the LAST people I would personally want in charge of the well being of children.
Remember in the early days when we were told that CPS and LE had to "rush" in to save "Sarah"?
well here is what really happened
As CPS prepared to visit the ranch, Texas Rangers asked the agency to hold off until it readied its own response. That helps explain why four days lapsed between the call - now known to be a hoax - and the raid, initiated on April 3.
http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9534517
and here is another question...remember when the Kim family was lost in the mountains in the NW and they were able to figure out where to search using pings from cell phones? That was when I realized just how quickly a cell call can be traced. We are supposed to believe that while CPS, and the Sheriffs office sat waiting for the Texas Rangers that they couldnt check and find out that those calls werent even coming from within the state of Texas? Of course they could have. Brooke Adams broke the story within a few days of the story hitting the AP. She is just a reporter. LE with all their resources could have done the same.
This is going out on a limb since I havent seen any proof, but I wouldnt be surprised if LE did know, but they went in anyway. At the very least they didnt check. So many little innocent lives at stake and they didnt even dot their I's and cross their T's.
Among other details the e-mails reveal:
•Days after the raid, the governor's office apparently did not have a copy of the "search warrant that the media seems to be reading from," which contained basic information supporting the raid. Plus, an outbreak of chicken pox at the shelter prompts emergency operations chief Jack Colley to writ