Two Oklahoma Girls (11 & 13yo) Found Murdered #5

[Littledeer]

Please Continue Here.

Thread 1: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65845
Thread 2: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66012
Thread 3: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66072 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66072)
Thread 4: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66136

POI:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/SeriouslySearching/POI1.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,366464,00.html

[Littledeer]

Originally Posted by MissHolmes http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2302509#post2302509)
The family tree has been partially updated. I will be working on it throughout the day.

http://placker.tribalpages.com/tribe...rand=767200765 (http://placker.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=placker&view=9&rand=767200765)
Stars added to the front of the name have been added to note they may not be in the
proper place in the tree. But it did seem necessary to add them at this time.

Thanks to those who have sent me additional information :blowkiss:
Please continue to send me any info you may have to add.

[KR2tonenow]

agreed, this puts the Placker Family Tree into perspective, hearty TY!!

[Littledeer]

Bringing forward last topic of discussion prior to article coming out above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyn1001 http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2302865#post2302865)
In regards to the position of the bodies, I know Skyla's grandmother saw them face up, but could that be because of the EMTs? Is it possible they were face down but turned over by the EMTs? I know there has been a lot of discussion on how we think they would have fallen after being shot. I thought if they were moved in the course of the EMTs work, it may make more sense.

[Littledeer]

Thank you KR, I agree!!

I will bring over Thread #4 once no one posts there any more. I hope some people are taking snap shots of some of the articles before they are not available to us anymore. I got a feeling this thread of topic is going to be around for a long while.

[evelyn24]

http://www.koco.com/news/16629920/detail.html

OK..POI is not in custody. The first story mistakenly thought the man arrested for the school incident was also the POI in the murder of the girls.

[Littledeer]

Pretty soon, maybe even a forum!!

[MissHolmes]

Pretty soon, maybe even a forum!!

Yes! It would be great to have a forum for this....hint hint :clap:

[KR2tonenow]

http://www.koco.com/news/16629920/detail.html

OK..POI is not in custody. The first story mistakenly thought the man arrested for the school incident was also the POI in the murder of the girls.

The POS was at the Weleeka school, and is quoted as being mentally ill, armed with a rifle.

I know people want this POS caught, but publishing it on the WEB prior to the correct info, is not good.

[EnvoyDriver61]

This event happened at 10:15 a.m. this morning. The mentally ill man was supposedly shouting that he had killed the Weleetka girls. Any number of people could have heard this, or a deputy could have and called it in to a news organization.

To me, it's not so much the news folks to blame for not waiting to get all the facts, but the LE or locals who are calling the people with heresay, etc. Like it our not, our media are focused more on getting the story first for an exclusive rather than getting the facts 100 percent straight.

Remember too that the average news media reader is interested in the details but not at the level of details we here on this website are.

[SuziQ]

Thanks Littledeer! Can you edit your first post in this thread to add links to the first 4 threads?

[Spazkat9696]

I really hoped the POI was in custody. I thought it seemed to good to be true. I see this as a case that may take a while, if ever, to solve. I hope I'm wrong.

[KR2tonenow]

This event happened at 10:15 a.m. this morning. The mentally ill man was supposedly shouting that he had killed the Weleetka girls. Any number of people could have heard this, or a deputy could have and called it in to a news organization.

To me, it's not so much the news folks to blame for not waiting to get all the facts, but the LE or locals who are calling the people with heresay, etc. Like it our not, our media are focused more on getting the story first for an exclusive rather than getting the facts 100 percent straight.

Remember too that the average news media reader is interested in the details but not at the level of details we here on this website are.

Your right, but its frustrating!:)

[Beyond Belief]

Just a question: Is it possible for a profiler to place the poi with a tribe affiliation?
That didn't sound right, I mean by looks.

[KR2tonenow]

Please Continue Here.

Thread 1: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65845
Thread 2: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66012
Thread 3: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66072 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66072)
Thread 4: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66136

POI:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/SeriouslySearching/POI1.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,366464,00.html

Great JOB!

[Littledeer]

SuziQ:

I did. All good things come to those who wait! LOL

:blowkiss:

[Littledeer]

If you posters have anything that should definately be brought over, help yourselves. I know there might be some information that should be here before it gets lost in all the theads.

If we keep up with it, it will be easier when we get our forum. :)

[KR2tonenow]

Just a question: Is it possible for a profiler to place the poi with a tribe affiliation?
That didn't sound right, I mean by looks.

It would be great to see a profiler from OSBI give us so more info.

[Littledeer]

Thanks KR!

I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds by doing this since I'm not a mod. But I thought it was getting too long over on the last thread.

[Littledeer]

Can you imagine the horror those poor kids and parents had to go through with this lunatic?? I just shudder thinking about it.

[SeriouslySearching]

Oh, gosh...I wish it had been accurate. :( Not him I see.

[Littledeer]

SS:

Not so fast. IT'S NOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

Okay, Guys;

I still cannot find that stupid page that showed Joe at the same adddy as Vicky, Ruth, Charles, and Linda,

BUT
here's what I do have

Joe's middle name is Richard.

AND

Christopher was married to Touia Duncan.

this is from oklahoma docket search..
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=1949752&db=Oklahoma



IN THE DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR OKLAHOMA COUNTY, OKLAHOMA
TOUIA ANN DUNCAN,
Plaintiff,
MINOR CHILD,
Plaintiff,
v.
CHRISTOPHER RYAN PLACKER,
Defendant. No. PO-2005-2068
(Protective Order:
PROTECTIVE ORDER)

Filed: 08/17/2005
Closed: 09/30/2005

Judge: Unassigned

Parties
DUNCAN, TOUIA ANN , Plaintiff MINOR CHILD , Plaintiff PLACKER, CHRISTOPHER RYAN , Defendant


Now, should I go x out the Joe stuff since I cannot find the link. Or should I just keep looking??????

[Albert18]

Like others have said, I am starting to get a not so good feeling about this crime being solved. I think it is starting to evolve from a crime the police solve to a crime that will only be solved with considerable help from the public.

The problem is, I think OSBI is being too coy with information. Plus, I think the quality of the local media coverage is suspect.

OSBI needs to understand they are dealing with a rural crime. People notice other people in rural areas. The person or persons who did this did not just materalize on that road. Someone locally may have noticed something at 10AM or at noon but they may not be aware of the significance of what they saw. People need to have things explained to them and maybe that will jog someone's memory.

I am also worried about the way OBSI keeps redoing things. It sounds like they are doing an incremental investigation. That works for adding salt to your food but the third person walking through the woods can't be looking for tracks.

[DeltaDawn]

SS I think that they are now saying this is not the right guy..that this person is mentally ill and just saying this.

http://www.koco.com/news/16629920/detail.html

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

And putting 2+2 together,

from the photo on v4mp b1tch page referring to her brother Willey(sic) and Touia, added to Christopher's offender page from prison that states he has a Wylie Coyote tattoo

NameCHRISTOPHER R PLACKER
ODOC# 282586http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/images/pobtrans.gif PIC REMOVEDimage 1 of 2 > (javascript:x=new String(window.location);location.replace(x.replace (/\&imageindex=[^\&$]*/,'')+'&imageindex=2');) 13 Sep 2004http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/images/pobtrans.gif AliasNo data availablehttp://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/images/pobtrans.gif IDsODOC#:282586Birth Date:05/29/1980 AppearanceWhite Male; 5 ft. 5 in. tall; 130 pounds; Brown hair; Brown eyes;http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/images/pobtrans.gif Body MarksCONV: LFT KNEE; TATTOSS "LIL ****" RTTHIGH "WYLIE COYOTE" LFT SHLD
Willey(sic) = Christopher

[Littledeer]

Paula:

I had posted in Thead 4 somewhere that I found the following at Intelius People Search:

Joe R. Placker

Previous Cities
Oklahoma City, OK
Edmond, OK
Del City, OK

Age 55

Relatives
Ann M. Placker
Jessica K. Placker
Rick M. Placker
Cissy K. Placker

Not sure if it's the same Joe R. Placker you are looking for.

[Spazkat9696]

Oh, gosh...I wish it had been accurate. :( Not him I see.



I think you all are reading what SS wrote, wrong. SS says it's not him.

[Littledeer]

Actually Spazkat, we know it's not him from the latter part of Thread 4.

SS's first post was thinking it was him, until she read some more and realized that it was NOT HIM, which she posted in her second post.

[FlowerChild]

Okay, Guys;

I still cannot find that stupid page that showed Joe at the same adddy as Vicky, Ruth, Charles, and Linda,

BUT
here's what I do have

Joe's middle name is Richard.

AND

Christopher was married to Touia Duncan.

this is from oklahoma docket search..
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=1949752&db=Oklahoma



IN THE DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR OKLAHOMA COUNTY, OKLAHOMA
TOUIA ANN DUNCAN,
Plaintiff,
MINOR CHILD,
Plaintiff,
v.
CHRISTOPHER RYAN PLACKER,
Defendant. No. PO-2005-2068
(Protective Order:
PROTECTIVE ORDER)

Filed: 08/17/2005
Closed: 09/30/2005

Judge: Unassigned

Parties
DUNCAN, TOUIA ANN , Plaintiff MINOR CHILD , Plaintiff PLACKER, CHRISTOPHER RYAN , Defendant


Now, should I go x out the Joe stuff since I cannot find the link. Or should I just keep looking??????

We have an Obit that shows Joe as Peter's brother - so there is a related Joe Placker.

http://placker.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=placker&view=0&pid=16&rand=810492332

[Spazkat9696]

I don't like your tone Littledear. I know it's not him you know it's not him, now, but you can still be nice to your fellow posters.

[MissHolmes]

Okay, Guys;

I still cannot find that stupid page that showed Joe at the same adddy as Vicky, Ruth, Charles, and Linda,

BUT
here's what I do have

Joe's middle name is Richard.

AND

Christopher was married to Touia Duncan.

this is from oklahoma docket search..
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=1949752&db=Oklahoma



IN THE DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR OKLAHOMA COUNTY, OKLAHOMA
TOUIA ANN DUNCAN,
Plaintiff,
MINOR CHILD,
Plaintiff,
v.
CHRISTOPHER RYAN PLACKER,
Defendant. No. PO-2005-2068
(Protective Order:
PROTECTIVE ORDER)

Filed: 08/17/2005
Closed: 09/30/2005

Judge: Unassigned

Parties
DUNCAN, TOUIA ANN , Plaintiff MINOR CHILD , Plaintiff PLACKER, CHRISTOPHER RYAN , Defendant


Now, should I go x out the Joe stuff since I cannot find the link. Or should I just keep looking??????

It sure is looking like they are Taylor's parents.

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

We have an Obit that shows Joe as Peter's brother - so there is a related Joe Placker.

http://placker.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=placker&view=0&pid=16&rand=810492332


YES!!!!!!!!!

Joe R, Joe Richard Placker....he's the Bandidos one.
BINGO

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

Here's addresses for Christopher from court dockets


Requested Party Record:
PLACKER, CHRISTOPHER RYAN
Alias or Alternate Names:
None Found.
Personal Profile* Record DateMarital StatusBirth DateBirth City BirthPlace December 17, 2001 at 4:53:59 PM -05/29/1980 --
Physical Profile* Record DateHairEyeSex Race Skin Weight Height Blood Type No Records Found.
Address Information* Record DateStatusTypeAddress October 4, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM

Current Home Address RT 1 BOX 8B WELEETKA, Oklahoma 74880 October 4, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM

-Unknown 340 SE 43RD OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma 73129 October 4, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM
-Unknown 36 N TUTTLE OKC, Oklahoma 73160 October 4, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM
-Unknown 1210 W BROADWAY HENRYETTA, Oklahoma 74437 October 4, 2006 at 10:47:12 AM
-Unknown P.O.BOX 1144 HENRYETTA, Oklahoma 74437 September 23, 2004 at 3:44:48 PM
-Unknown 1801 W DIVISION HENRYETTA, Oklahoma 74437 May 23, 2000 at 1:2:58 PM
-Unknown 817 NW 23RD #2 MOORE , Oklahoma

http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/getpartyrecord.asp?partynamesid=6677174

[Littledeer]

Spazkat:

I'm so sorry if I came off the wrong way!! Didn't mean to. In rereading my post, I can see it was a little terse.

Sorry. If you read my posts, you can see I'm not that way.

Sorry!!

[Spazkat9696]

Spazkat:

I'm so sorry if I came off the wrong way!! Didn't mean to. In rereading my post, I can see it was a little terse.

Sorry. If you read my posts, you can see I'm not that way.

Sorry!!


I guess we all come off the wrong way from time to time. :)

[winteryns]

YES!!!!!!!!!

Joe R, Joe Richard Placker....he's the Bandidos one.
BINGO

Hi PoorPaula,

I may have missed it but where did you see that he is a Bandidos? I am reading while at work so I may have skimmed past when my supervisor walked past...lol

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

Hi PoorPaula,

I may have missed it but where did you see that he is a Bandidos? I am reading while at work so I may have skimmed past when my supervisor walked past...lol

I put a link up about it yesterday. I cannot find the indictment. I find that HIGHLY suspicious.
And I wasn't implying that find the info meant the parents were in on it or caused it. It just showed me that there are some very dangerous people who may be around them.

[evelyn24]

ugh..This family tree stuff is making my head spin.
I understand the boredom factor because there hasn't been any new information in the case lately. However, are we sure the people being listed are indeed family to Taylor, and even if they are do they have something to do with the murders?
If the answer is no, then who cares? It's becoming a tad bit confusing.

Now I don't want anybody to get offended, because I know a few people are really interested in the family tree stuff, and it's good work in pasting it all together, but IMO it's irrelevant to the murders.

JMO

[Littledeer]

:blowkiss:

Thanks for accepting apology.

Other than Chris (if I am not mistaken who was arrested), does anyone know if there are any other family members who are no longer in the vincity since the girls were murdered? I'm just wondering if the police, FBI, etc. might have moved them to a safer place? Other than SS who lives I believe approx. 70 miles away, do we have any other local posters that live in the area?

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

ugh..This family tree stuff is making my head spin.
I understand the boredom factor because there hasn't been any new information in the case lately. However, are we sure the people being listed are indeed family to Taylor, and even if they are do they have something to do with the murders?
If the answer is no, then who cares?

Now I don't want anybody to get offended, because I know a few people are really interested in the family tree stuff, and it's good work in pasting it all together, but IMO it's irrelevant to the murders.

JMO

It can be boring sometimes; you're right. But I've found that more often than not, it leads directly to and/or is part of the crime.

[harleysnana]

Okay, Guys;
Now, should I go x out the Joe stuff since I cannot find the link. Or should I just keep looking??????

Paula~
Was it on the page that showed his picture?
I'm leaving right now but I do believe it had an address below his
booking picture...
I can check when I get back.

[Littledeer]

Is this what one of you are looking for?

OKLAHOMA CITY
Seven indicted in contraband scheme
Seven alleged members of a motorcycle gang are facing federal charges of selling stolen guns and contraband cigarettes.
Thomas Kirby (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON), 63; Wesley George (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Wesley+George&CATEGORY=PERSON), 49; James Oleson (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=James+Oleson&CATEGORY=PERSON), 42; Dennis Shepherd (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Dennis+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; Smith Justin Beal (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Smith+Justin+Beal&CATEGORY=PERSON), 58; Joe Placker (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Joe+Placker&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; and Linda Shepherd (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Linda+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), age not given, were indicted July 24 by a federal grand jury in Oklahoma City. All of them are members or associates of the Bandidos motorcycle gang (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Bandidos+Motorcycle+Club&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION), the indictment states. They allegedly conspired to sell guns and cigarettes out of Kirby (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON)'s Oklahoma City apartment between November 2004 and June 2006, according to court papers.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:49MfJkJOV7oJ:newsok.com/article/3098530+placker+site:http://newsok.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=45&gl=us (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:49MfJkJOV7oJ:newsok.com/article/3098530+placker+site:http://newsok.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=45&gl=us)

[winteryns]

I put a link up about it yesterday. I cannot find the indictment. I find that HIGHLY suspicious.
And I wasn't implying that find the info meant the parents were in on it or caused it. It just showed me that there are some very dangerous people who may be around them.

I'll look for it. Thanks

[evelyn24]

It can be boring sometimes; you're right. But I've found that more often than not, it leads directly to and/or is part of the crime.

yea..I understand the need to figure it out, but I can't help thinking the family tree angle is the wrong direction. I guess it's worth looking at, but it makes my eyes glaze over reading it..lol

[winteryns]

Is this what one of you are looking for?

OKLAHOMA CITY
Seven indicted in contraband scheme
Seven alleged members of a motorcycle gang are facing federal charges of selling stolen guns and contraband cigarettes.
Thomas Kirby (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON), 63; Wesley George (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Wesley+George&CATEGORY=PERSON), 49; James Oleson (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=James+Oleson&CATEGORY=PERSON), 42; Dennis Shepherd (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Dennis+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; Smith Justin Beal (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Smith+Justin+Beal&CATEGORY=PERSON), 58; Joe Placker (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Joe+Placker&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; and Linda Shepherd (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Linda+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), age not given, were indicted July 24 by a federal grand jury in Oklahoma City. All of them are members or associates of the Bandidos motorcycle gang (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Bandidos+Motorcycle+Club&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION), the indictment states. They allegedly conspired to sell guns and cigarettes out of Kirby (http://72.14.205.104/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON)'s Oklahoma City apartment between November 2004 and June 2006, according to court papers.

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:49MfJkJOV7oJ:newsok.com/article/3098530+placker+site:http://newsok.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=45&gl=us (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:49MfJkJOV7oJ:newsok.com/article/3098530+placker+site:http://newsok.com&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=45&gl=us)


Thanks!!!

[FlowerChild]

So, now that we are NOT SPECULATING but KNOW there is a connection between Joe (Bandidos) Placker and his brother Peter (Taylor's GP) Placker the theories that it might have been a "retaliation" murder by someone within the criminal element that is (and surrounds) the Bandidos ARE possible. As in - perhaps the killer wasn't a Bandidos member but a friend of a member or a family member of a Bandidos member?? Since we have no info about the Cigarette/Guns Bandidos case or it's disposition there are at least a dozen scenarios that MIGHT have led to someone being angry enough at "A (Joe or his wife or his brother?) Placker" to retaliate by killing Taylor and Skyla - possibly without even knowing who either of them was - just that they walked out of the Placker house. Maybe the killer though they were Joe's Grandkids or something???

It sounds like the killing was done by someone with "experience" and Oklahoma prisons are filled with those types and they get paroled every day. It wouldn't be a stretch for someone in or around a group like the Bandidos to find someone like that (totally unreleted to the Plackers or the area) and send them to give the Plackers a message. And despite what OSBI says, if WE can Google the address and find the Plackers listed online - so can anyone else who can walk into a library. That house isn't THAT remote and is actually very close to HWY 75 and it's clearly easy to locate in Google Earth with a detailed map including topography. I don't think the location makes it definite in any way that the killer knew the area or was from around there. With the internet, he could have been from ANYWHERE and still have found the house and been able to exit right back onto HWY 75 in minutes.

My Opinion

[SuziQ]

Now I don't want anybody to get offended, because I know a few people are really interested in the family tree stuff, and it's good work in pasting it all together, but IMO it's irrelevant to the murders.

JMO

As long as the OSBI is quesitoning everyone around the girls it's relevant.

[SuziQ]

yea..I understand the need to figure it out, but I can't help thinking the family tree angle is the wrong direction. I guess it's worth looking at, but it makes my eyes glaze over reading it..lol

Me too! lol

[harleysnana]

Here are the two links to Joe Placker
the first one has a picture of him.
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=530544&offender_book_id=315025
And this is the one about the bad check from 2003 and the warrant
issued for it on 6-12-2008.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2308432&db=Oklahoma

[Busylady]

The first protective order 08/05 was denied, then another one was filed 11/27/2007 it was also denied.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2234688&db=Oklahoma

Wondering why these are requested then denied?

[SuziQ]

Here are the two links to Joe Placker
the first one has a picture of him.
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=530544&offender_book_id=315025
And this is the one about the bad check from 2003 and the warrant
issued for it on 6-12-2008.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2308432&db=Oklahoma

I'd have to go back and look at the family website, but Joe looks like Tony. Brothers maybe?

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

yea..I understand the need to figure it out, but I can't help thinking the family tree angle is the wrong direction. I guess it's worth looking at, but it makes my eyes glaze over reading it..lol

My eyes are glazed over too. There's soooooooo much. Usually there's a dearth, but not this time. Plus everyone goes to court using nicknames as well as legal names.

[Littledeer]

Suzi:

I just had the same thought now when I saw Joe's picture. Can you bring forward the pics?

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

Here are the two links to Joe Placker
the first one has a picture of him.
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=530544&offender_book_id=315025
And this is the one about the bad check from 2003 and the warrant
issued for it on 6-12-2008.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2308432&db=Oklahoma

LOL! No wonder couldn't find him. He's in the pokey. Duh! I must have looked at him a jillion times, but it didn't click. Double Duh!

[Trino]

ugh..This family tree stuff is making my head spin.
I understand the boredom factor because there hasn't been any new information in the case lately. However, are we sure the people being listed are indeed family to Taylor, and even if they are do they have something to do with the murders?
If the answer is no, then who cares? It's becoming a tad bit confusing.

Now I don't want anybody to get offended, because I know a few people are really interested in the family tree stuff, and it's good work in pasting it all together, but IMO it's irrelevant to the murders. JMO

Thank you for posting this. I, too, believe the concentration should be elsewhere. LE has stated the family is not suspect. I would assume this means extended family. There also has been no statement to indicate involvement with anyone connected to a family member. IMO it would be more productive to concentrate on the murder scene and possible links to drawings of the POI.

The grandparents obviously know why the parents weren't listed in the obit. It appears it's not something they wish to be public information, and I, for one, respect their decision not to involve the natural parents. They have gone through enough w/o their family history and problems being opened to the public.

[Littledeer]

The good news, that's just the Placker side.

The Paschal side is worse.......................way too many of them!! And if it's related to that side, I doubt we will ever find out. But I am tending to lean to the Placker name and the gang Joe is affiliated with.

Even though, it can be anything.

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

The first protective order 08/05 was denied, then another one was filed 11/27/2007 it was also denied.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2234688&db=Oklahoma

Wondering why these are requested then denied?

I think a lot of times that happens because the parties fall back in like/love, or someone doesn't show up to court to finish it.

[winteryns]

I think a lot of times that happens because the parties fall back in like/love, or someone doesn't show up to court to finish it.

I think if that was the case it would be dismissed not denied. Sorry to say I did this once.

[PoorPaulaNNJ]

I have to run for a bit. Be back later.

But to whoever made the family tree thingy, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

See you guys later.

[FlowerChild]

Tony isn't Joe's brother - Joe is one of Peter's brothers - the Placker Brothers are
Joe, Arvey, James, Charley, Darrell, Peter
There are also 3 sisters
Phyllis, Rosemary and Beverly

[Littledeer]

PoorPaula:

It was MissHolmes that gets the credit for the family tree!!!!

Thank you again MissHolmes.

[luthersmama]

I have access to the docket for the federal case as well as all of the filings. I can't link to it because it is a fee-based service of the court.

Joe is also known as "Renegade Rick". He pled guilty to one count in January and is on three years probation.

According to the indictment, Joe was a minor player involved only in the contraband cigarettes and not the guns. They were all associated with the Bandidos and other Bandidos chapters were the customers.

What else would you like to know?

[Littledeer]

This guys picture needs to be splashed on the tv screen all around. Any word on AMW, NG, Greta, Larry King or anyone going to do a special on this????

Do the LE automatically fax a pic out to all LE's across the state?? I guess that's a stupid question, if that could happen, there would be thousands of faxes going state to state every minute!!

[evelyn24]

I have access to the docket for the federal case as well as all of the filings. I can't link to it because it is a fee-based service of the court.

Joe is also known as "Renegade Rick". He pled guilty to one count in January and is on three years probation.

According to the indictment, Joe was a minor player involved only in the contraband cigarettes and not the guns. They were all associated with the Bandidos and other Bandidos chapters were the customers.

What else would you like to know?


I'd like to know if he is indeed related to Taylor?

[OrdinaryLife]

In my *very* humble opinion, it seems that this case is only focusing on family trees and court/trouble issues within them.

I think that without having LE give any more information than we have, it is very difficult, at best, to discuss the "other" possibilities concerning this case.

It's no posters fault that there is so VERY little to go on. I honestly don't understand why we cannot reach farther than we are. It's very frustrating, eh? That said....

Did this family go to any events, fairs, or carnivals over the weekend? Is it not possible that one or both of these angels hooked up with "someone" via email, mobile phone, or in person and told the POS where they lived? When they could meet?

One more thing, if you do not mind? Please? If a poster is responding to a post, could they please quote the poster they are responding to? It would make it so much less confusing. Responses happen to fast here!! Also, if you edit a post, could you please note you have edited your post? I have found that has happened here and it makes the post you are reading and thinking of responding confusing as well. Thank you *so* much! That would be a huge help when you go back and forth to pages. :)

[Claycat]

I have access to the docket for the federal case as well as all of the filings. I can't link to it because it is a fee-based service of the court.

Joe is also known as "Renegade Rick". He pled guilty to one count in January and is on three years probation.

According to the indictment, Joe was a minor player involved only in the contraband cigarettes and not the guns. They were all associated with the Bandidos and other Bandidos chapters were the customers.

What else would you like to know?

What if he turned evidence, and that is why he got a lesser charge? Is that possible?

[luthersmama]

What if he turned evidence, and that is why he got a lesser charge? Is that possible?

He was a minor player to begin with and he "accepted responsibility" for what he did. There was a big undercover sting. The plea deal doesn't reference anything about giving evidence, but he might have done for sure.

[Littledeer]

Data:

You raise some good points. But it is hard as you said with out knowing anything. We can ask the questions that you did, but how do we get the answers??

We would also like to know what the girls did for the days preceding the event. Who did they talk to? LE already has the computer and they have the cell phone. Has it been mentioned if Skylar also had a cell phone?

Was this just a one night sleep over? Maybe this was Skylar's second night over or maybe the night before Taylor had slept over at Skylar's house??

Does anyone know how deep the water is under the bridge?? Are there any trails that were obvious in the ariel maps that showed County Line Road where the Plackers lived that maybe someone was on, including the girls?

However, I would still like to see the family tree, etc. as it helps me keep who is who correct.

[CarpeDiem]

Did this family go to any events, fairs, or carnivals over the weekend? Is it not possible that one or both of these angels hooked up with "someone" via email, mobile phone, or in person and told the POS where they lived? When they could meet?



I want to know those things too. Though the motive seems different in these cases, remember Couey first was face to face with Jessica Lunsford at a garage sale, Danielle Van Dam was exposed to her murderer when she sold girl scout cookies. Both perps were neighbors.

My parents kind of made enemies with the neighbors when I was growing up, over stuff like animals, stupid things. But everyone was always kind to the kids. Maybe we were just lucky.

[luthersmama]

I'd like to know if he is indeed related to Taylor?

Nothing in the court filings about that. Not even an address. I know he was born in 1953.

[evelyn24]

Nothing in the court filings about that. Not even an address. I know he was born in 1953.


Ok, thank you.

[Albert18]

I think those of you who don't think there is a family connection are missing the point.

Nobody is saying somebody in the family killed the girls. That isn't what this is about.

There has to be a reason the girls came into contact with the killer or killers. Ted Bundy didn't kill just any girl, he had to see her first. He had to be in the area to see the girl.

This was an incredibly ruthless killer and so how did someone like that just happen to be on that rural road on a Sunday afternoon? Almost every time girls are killed like this it is a sexual attack. Apparently not this time so this is a very unusual crime.

As Greta says, this was an execution. There has to be a reason.

For a crime like this to happen in a small community there has to be talk. Apparently that talk isn't getting to OSBI. Why? If it involved a local loser or losers that talk should be getting to OSBI.

So why would an outsider be on that road on that Sunday and it not be sexual?

[FlowerChild]

Thank you for posting this. I, too, believe the concentration should be elsewhere. LE has stated the family is not suspect. I would assume this means extended family. There also has been no statement to indicate involvement with anyone connected to a family member. IMO it would be more productive to concentrate on the murder scene and possible links to drawings of the POI.

The grandparents obviously know why the parents weren't listed in the obit. It appears it's not something they wish to be public information, and I, for one, respect their decision not to involve the natural parents. They have gone through enough w/o their family history and problems being opened to the public.
No, the Families are not "suspect" in the murders, but saying the family has been cleared just means no-one in the family killed the girls or had them killed...NOT that someone associated with a family member or in their circle of current or past "associates" didn't.

Sadly, most in the Placker/Paschal family but Peter and Vicky seem to have some significant difficulty staying on the right side of the law and several of them who aren't in some sort of criminal/legal trouble are dating or married to, or living with or involved with someone who is, or has been incarcerated.

The family associations could be the KEY to this whole case...especially since G-Pa Placker reportedly screamed "they killed them" when he found the girls shot dead.

There are a LOT of criminal types hanging around the whole
Placker/Paschal Family - and there are so many of these associates and relatives revolving constantly in and out of jail/prison it is difficult to figure out which are "in" and which are "out" at any given time. This cannot be ignored in a murder that was "execution style" where evidence is slim and the POI in a detailed sketch cannot be located despite national coverage.

It is highly unlikely that this murder was done by a stranger who just drove down the road and shot "someone" - chances are this murder is related somehow to someone in the Placker Family or associated with the family. It was an "execution" by someone who knew what they were doing and wasn't just screwing around - vengeance, retaliation and "pay backs" come to mind. And with criminals, it could have started with something as small as a slight or an insult or as big as a snitch or ratting someone out.

I think the family tree is very important - it's telling us that the family may have had criminals in their home and the girls may have been exposed to such people. It's telling us that some family members had associates who were capable of ordering a hit and had access to guns and cash and probably stolen vehicles.

My Opinion

[OrdinaryLife]

I want to know those things too. Though the motive seems different in these cases, remember Couey first was face to face with Jessica Lunsford at a garage sale, Danielle Van Dam was exposed to her murderer when she sold girl scout cookies. Both perps were neighbors.

CarpeDiem, I cannot help but feel there is something more to this. Perhaps even a small detail that could have a huge part in this that may be overlooked.

It's in my gut and no matter how I have tried, I cannot dismiss it. Family stuff just doesn't ~feel~ right. That's not to say family may have known POS, but I do not think it's retaliation. More like an opportunity..... Possibly.

[Littledeer]

I say continue the family tree and discussing the family dynamics. You never know what you might find.

For others who don't think it's relevant, post what you do find relevant and that can also be discussed. I can't see why both can't be discussed here in this thread with any problems.

IMO

[FlowerChild]

I'd like to know if he is indeed related to Taylor?
He (Joe Placker) is her "great uncle". He is her Grandfather's (Peter Placker) Brother.

[Claycat]

Albert18, the reason we keep bringing up the family is because we are looking for a motive. If someone in the family was involved with criminals, there might have been a payback element. That's the main reason, not that someone in the family did the shooting.

[Littledeer]

Data05:

Can you expand on your "opportunity" theory?

[Dobler]

http://www.whosarat.com/

Does anyone have membership to the website above? I don't know if anything will come of it, but I came across this checking out the bandidos. It lists informants (rats) for the motorcycle gangs.

Great job on the family tree!

[OrdinaryLife]

I think those of you who don't think there is a family connection are missing the point.

Nobody is saying somebody in the family killed the girls. That isn't what this is about.

There has to be a reason the girls came into contact with the killer or killers. Ted Bundy didn't kill just any girl, he had to see her first. He had to be in the area to see the girl.

This was an incredibly ruthless killer and so how did someone like that just happen to be on that rural road on a Sunday afternoon? Almost every time girls are killed like this it is a sexual attack. Apparently not this time so this is a very unusual crime.

As Greta says, this was an execution. There has to be a reason.

For a crime like this to happen in a small community there has to be talk. Apparently that talk isn't getting to OSBI. Why? If it involved a local loser or losers that talk should be getting to OSBI.

So why would an outsider be on that road on that Sunday and it not be sexual?

Not missing any point. There are many more possibilities that we cannot discuss as LE has kept everything very tight and closed. Until LE decides to reveal what forensics has found (ie: computer, mobile phones, and activities for that weekend) or release what more they do know, this is it.

When or until LE decides to share more possible info, meaning they have changed their focus on family deals (close and extended), we are all stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Not every murder is a plan for sexual assault though some who murder find sexual pleasure in the act of murder.....

IMHO

[Leila]

Originally Posted by MissHolmes http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2302509#post2302509)
The family tree has been partially updated. I will be working on it throughout the day.

http://placker.tribalpages.com/tribe...rand=767200765 (http://placker.tribalpages.com/tribe/browse?userid=placker&view=9&rand=767200765)
Stars added to the front of the name have been added to note they may not be in the
proper place in the tree. But it did seem necessary to add them at this time.

Thanks to those who have sent me additional information :blowkiss:
Please continue to send me any info you may have to add.

I'm just getting online today and was on thread #4 and saw the update of the family tree data by MissHolmes! The obituary find, showing that there's a Joe and a Peter who are brothers is a VERY important clue!

She was married to Arvey Placker and he precedes her in death. She is survived by 6 sons, Joe, Arvey, James, Peter, Charlie and Darrell Placker

The surname, Placker, is not a common name, and I suspect that Peter Placker's brother is the 55-year-old, Joe Richard Placker of Oklahoma City. His son, Joe Richard Placker jr. is the one who is serving a five-year term for selling stolen guns. He's been married (to Ann Marie Davis) and divorced, and has three children. He would be Peter Placker's nephew. Interestingly, in the custody of the three children, primary custody of the oldest child was given to Joe Placker jr, and primary custody of the two younger children to his ex-wife, Ann Marie. With Joe in prison, who now has custody of his oldest child? Who IS his oldest child?

[evelyn24]

He (Joe Placker) is her "great uncle". He is her Grandfather's (Peter Placker) Brother.

The man in the Bandidos who was arrested for the contraband is Taylor's great uncle?

[FlowerChild]

The Daily Oklahoman-August 6, 1995 PLACKER Petra Teresa, 67, of OKC, Ok., passed away Aug. 2, 1995 in OKC, Ok. She was born on May 19, 1928 in Lyons, Kansas to Pilar and Jose Sambrano. She was married to Arvey Placker and he precedes her in death. She is survived by 6 sons, Joe, Arvey, James, Peter, Charlie and Darrell Placker, 3 daughters, Phyllis Placker, Rosemary Mares and Beverly Bales, 1 sister, Molly Sepeda, all of OKC, Ok.; 38 grandchildren and 7 great grandchildren; 12 nieces and nephews. Rosary services will be 6:00 p.m. Sunda y, Aug. 6, 1995, at Baggerley-Marler South Funeral Chapel. Mass of Christian Burial will be 10:00 a.m. Monday, Aug. 7, 1995, at Little Flower Catholic Church, OKC, Ok. Burial will be at Resthaven Memorial Gardens.

[oceanblueeyes]

CarpeDiem, I cannot help but feel there is something more to this. Perhaps even a small detail that could have a huge part in this that may be overlooked.

It's in my gut and no matter how I have tried, I cannot dismiss it. Family stuff just doesn't ~feel~ right. That's not to say family may have known POS, but I do not think it's retaliation. More like an opportunity..... Possibly.

I agree and now we know that Joe Placker wasn't even a big player in the Federal case. I just still do not see why any family members would do this...even the family members that have less than spotless records. That seems even more unrealistic that they would just go shoot two girls, one who was their own kin.:waitasec:

I think it is like you are suggesting. Sometime between 4:30pm and 5:20pm I do think he saw them on the road somewhere before they were killed. What happened before they were killed when he did see them, I have no clue but imo he then formed the intent he was going to kill them both.

He certainly had the opportunity and he took it.

imoo

[FlowerChild]

The man in the Bandidos who was arrested for the contraband is Taylor's great uncle?
YES!!! I just posted the obit here for everyone to see.

[Mygirlsadie]

So out of curiousity here... I noticed that alot of emphasis has been put on the family / family tree. Do you guys suspect the family is involved or responsible for these two little girls deaths?

[rccook555]

http://www.koco.com/news/16623209/detail.html

Agents Refuse To Release 911 Call
An OSBI spokeswoman said Monday that her office would not be releasing an "extremely emotional" 911 call because agents don't believe it will advance their efforts to find whoever killed two girls in Okfuskee County on June 8.

[evelyn24]

YES!!! I just posted the obit here for everyone to see.


First of all, don't shout at me please.

I'm not seeing all the family links/posts made, there are a million of them here and easy to miss one or two.
Also, you posted the obit information AFTER I asked the question.
Also, that really doesn't PROVE anything.
Joe is a common name, no?
I thought his wife had the same address as Vicki and Peter Placker? Where is that information?

[Lyn1001]

So out of curiousity here... I noticed that alot of emphasis has been put on the family / family tree. Do you guys suspect the family is involved or responsible for these two little girls deaths?

I can't speak for anyone, but from what I can gather is that no one thinks the family was involved. It is hypothesized that the family's associations with various criminal acts/people may have lead to a motive.

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me!

[evelyn24]

I agree and now we know that Joe Placker wasn't even a big player in the Federal case. I just still do not see why any family members would do this...even the family members that have less than spotless records. That seems even more unrealistic that they would just go shoot two girls, one who was their own kin.:waitasec:

I think it is like you are suggesting. Sometime between 4:30pm and 5:20pm I do think he saw them on the road somewhere before they were killed. What happened before they were killed when he did see them, I have no clue but imo he then formed the intent he was going to kill them both.

He certainly had the opportunity and he took it.

imoo

Agreed, it's all small time criminal stuff on these records. Not to say they didn't make someone mad in jail, or rip off the wrong nutcase.

[MissHolmes]

So out of curiousity here... I noticed that alot of emphasis has been put on the family / family tree. Do you guys suspect the family is involved or responsible for these two little girls deaths?

No one suspects any member of this family in the deaths of these two little girls. But, if you look at their history going back you will see that many immediate family members have been in and out of prison for along time. And have associated with alot of people that are not your model citizens. They obviously know alot of unsavory people and alot of unsavory people must know them. This is just another angle, out of many other angles that have been focused on. And there has been little to no information coming from the cops to lead in new directions or to expand in current directions. Thus some have been discussing the family connections more.

[FlowerChild]

No-one here thinks the Placker/Paschal family had anything to do with these murders! The family is involved with a lot of criminals though and THOSE associations might have brought a killer into their midst. There is no honor among thieves and murderers and sometimes they kill people for the smallest reasons. Yes, even children.

Vicky and Peter are NOT criminal types but their children are openly involved with convicts and at least one has been in jail/prison. Peter's Brother was involved with selling weapons and the Bandidos Motorcycle Gang. It isn't a stellar family for sure and some rather suspect people could have been around Taylor and Sky and known where Peter and Vicky lived. We have no idea who they socialized with or who was in their home - or could tell someone else where they lived.


My Opinion

[MissHolmes]

Agreed, it's all small time criminal stuff on these records. Not to say they didn't make someone mad in jail, or rip off the wrong nutcase.

I wouldnt consider manslaughter, domestic abuse, dealing drugs and running guns small time.

[Leila]

Here are the two links to Joe Placker
the first one has a picture of him.
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=530544&offender_book_id=315025
And this is the one about the bad check from 2003 and the warrant
issued for it on 6-12-2008.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=2308432&db=Oklahoma

It's important to note that there's two Joe Richard Plackers - one is Joe Placker senior and he's 55-years-old, and the other is his son, Joe Placker junior.

It appears that the Joe Placker that's a member of the Banditos motorcycle gang is Joe Placker senior, now age 55.

It's Joe Placker junior that's currently serving a prison sentence according to the court record that shows his picture - release date of 2011.

But..........the Joe Placker that has an arrest warrant for the 2003 bad check is ALSO Joe Placker junior. If he's got an arrest warrant, that must mean he was recently released from prison.

Even though the release date says 2011, he probably got credit for time served between arrest and conviction, and if Oklahoma is anything like other states, he may only have to serve two thirds of his sentence before being eligible for parole. So, I guess it's possible he's out of prison.

Edited to add............Joe Placker could still be in prison, the arrest warrant would be served there.

[Littledeer]

And speaking for myself, I am trying to be level headed and interested in both the family side aspect and have asked other questions that have nothing to do with the family.

In fact, those questions have not been responded to yet. :confused:

I have also asked Data05 to expand on the opportunity theory, which I am interested in, as that is also a viable theory. IMO

[OrdinaryLife]

Data05:

Can you expand on your "opportunity" theory?



Well, maybe the angels met this POS (or POS plural) during their walks, at an event, or someone (again, it could be plural..couple of guys) ~somewhere~.

Let me be *me* in the thought process... These two angels were 13 and 11 years old. Young teens or becoming a teen. Could it not be possible that POS's chatted with them, flattered them, and the angels told them where they were from? When they could meet up? Or, it was POS's that they have seen, but not spoken with in that area. I think that's possible as well. It would explain, possibly, why these did not run. I do not think it was an older man/men.

These murders were an over kill. Someone did not want the girls to talk. It may not have mattered if they were not sexually assaulted, but the possibilty of them talking....not worth any risk.

Younger guys. Teen, late teens. People know them. They have a reputation to protect, they have bothered girls before, and this time they lost it.

People have been murdered for less. Pardon my ramblings of thought. They are literally ramblings. Heck, I'll most likely change my rambles again! Just tossing it out there in no sequence... :)

[SailorMoon]

I don't suspect any family member in these tragic deaths. However, I do think it is very possible, especially in light of their criminal background, that someone known to them or associated to them had something to do with it.

Or...along another avenue...perhaps Taylor did take Skyla along to show her something or meet someone and Skyla threatened to tell?? I have no evidence or theory that this is what occurred or might have occurred...but we just don't know.

[Littledeer]

Let me be *me* in the thought process... These two angels were 13 and 11 years old. Young teens or becoming a teen. Could it not be possible that POS's chatted with them, flattered them, and the angels told them where they were from? When they could meet up? Or, it was POS's that they have seen, but not spoken with in that area. I think that's possible as well. It would explain, possibly, why these did not run. I do not think it was an older man/men.

These murders were an over kill. Someone did not want the girls to talk. It may not have mattered if they were not sexually assaulted, but the possibilty of them talking....not worth any risk.

Younger guys. Teen, late teens. People know them. They have a reputation to protect, they have bothered girls before, and this time they lost it.

Your right that it was an overkill. IMO, if someone didn't want them to talk, it would just be a simple shot to the heart, or any vital organ. But it wasn't, they had to do an execution style of killing. IMO, I just can't see this being done by younger teens to late teens.

Those ages IMO do not have the expertise to kill the way these angels were killed.

No problem on the ramblings, I understand. It comes from complete frustration with a senseless crime against two innocent angels. BTW, I love that you call them that. :blowkiss:

[oceanblueeyes]

No-one here thinks the Placker/Paschal family had anything to do with these murders! The family is involved with a lot of criminals though and THOSE associations might have brought a killer into their midst. There is no honor among thieves and murderers and sometimes they kill people for the smallest reasons. Yes, even children.

Vicky and Peter are NOT criminal types but their children are openly involved with convicts and at least one has been in jail/prison. Peter's Brother was involved with selling weapons and the Bandidos Motorcycle Gang. It isn't a stellar family for sure and some rather suspect people could have been around Taylor and Sky and known where Peter and Vicky lived. We have no idea who they socialized with or who was in their home - or could tell someone else where they lived.


My Opinion

But the police seem very sure about the POI since Brown said when he is found she thinks this case will be resolved quickly........so wouldn't all or some of the family members know who this man is? Especially if they had recently socialized in their homes.

imoo

[luthersmama]

I agree and now we know that Joe Placker wasn't even a big player in the Federal case. I just still do not see why any family members would do this...even the family members that have less than spotless records. That seems even more unrealistic that they would just go shoot two girls, one who was their own kin.:waitasec:

I think it is like you are suggesting. Sometime between 4:30pm and 5:20pm I do think he saw them on the road somewhere before they were killed. What happened before they were killed when he did see them, I have no clue but imo he then formed the intent he was going to kill them both.

He certainly had the opportunity and he took it.

imoo

He was a small player in the case, but there must have been alot of money changing hands. I was thinking about this while I was driving home. The contraband ciggies might actually have been more profitable than the stolen guns. If the ciggies were being removed from warehouses on a reservation, it could explain why the POI may be N.A. Either he was the link for getting the cigarettes or the Bandidos were horning in on his turf? :waitasec:

He also got out of the case relatively early. Some of the other defendants are still on the hook. I think it is possible that this was a warning to him. But wouldn't it be better to just kill him to shut him up? :waitasec:

[Leila]

So out of curiousity here... I noticed that alot of emphasis has been put on the family / family tree. Do you guys suspect the family is involved or responsible for these two little girls deaths?

I think the general consensus is that a family member did not kill the two girls, but that a family member who's involved in criminal activity, has created enemies who took revenge against that family member involved in criminal activity, by killing one of his family members - Taylor. Skyla was killed because she was with Taylor.

[Littledeer]

:clap::clap:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygirlsadie http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2303516#post2303516)
So out of curiousity here... I noticed that alot of emphasis has been put on the family / family tree. Do you guys suspect the family is involved or responsible for these two little girls deaths?

I think the general consensus is that a family member did not kill the two girls, but that a family member who's involved in criminal activity, has created enemies who took revenge against that family member involved in criminal activity, by killing one of his family members - Taylor. Skyla was killed because she was with Taylor.

[OrdinaryLife]

Your right that it was an overkill. IMO, if someone didn't want them to talk, it would just be a simple shot to the heart, or any vital organ. But it wasn't, they had to do an execution style of killing. IMO, I just can't see this being done by younger teens to late teens.

Those ages IMO do not have the expertise to kill the way these angels were killed.

No problem on the ramblings, I understand. It comes from complete frustration with a senseless crime against two innocent angels. BTW, I love that you call them that. :blowkiss:

Littledeer, if these POS's had any shooting/hunting experience, they could have done this. Even in their teens if they have been shooting over a long period of time even as a child. You do not need to be a "pro" to complete the job that this/these killers did.

If a pro wanted them dead, one shot to the head, maybe two. Period.

Hey, I'll have more "ramblings" I am sure! Just give me more time...I should reorganize my brain and thought process!!!!:crazy:

Thanks for reading my "stuff"...:blowkiss::blowkiss:

[MissHolmes]

He was a small player in the case, but there must have been alot of money changing hands. I was thinking about this while I was driving home. The contraband ciggies might actually have been more profitable than the stolen guns. If the ciggies were being removed from warehouses on a reservation, it could explain why the POI may be N.A. Either he was the link for getting the cigarettes or the Bandidos were horning in on his turf? :waitasec:

He also got out of the case relatively early. Some of the other defendants are still on the hook. I think it is possible that this was a warning to him. But wouldn't it be better to just kill him to shut him up? :waitasec:

Your reasoning makes sense luthersmama :)

[Lyn1001]

No specific reason for my thoughts, just some thoughts so I thought I would post them.

I think the girls were specifically targeted for some reason. Don't have any idea about the reason.
I think there were two people, one a bit older and more experienced. I think that the older one told the younger one to start shooting. I think the older one did the kill shots and enjoyed it. The ME's evidence may or may not support this, we'll see!
I think the girls knew at least one of the guys.
I don't think the POI is the killer, although he may be involved.

As I said, I have no idea why those thoughts popped into my head, but I figured since we don't really have much to go on, I may as well share!

[Busylady]

The sentence says deferred and the facility says inactive. I don't think he is incarcerated at this time. I think the 2011 days is the date the 5yr deferred sentence expires?

It's important to note that there's two Joe Richard Plackers - one is Joe Placker senior and he's 55-years-old, and the other is his son, Joe Placker junior.

It appears that the Joe Placker that's a member of the Banditos motorcycle gang is Joe Placker senior, now age 55.

It's Joe Placker junior that's currently serving a prison sentence according to the court record that shows his picture - release date of 2011.

But..........the Joe Placker that has an arrest warrant for the 2003 bad check is ALSO Joe Placker junior. If he's got an arrest warrant, that must mean he was recently released from prison.

Even though the release date says 2011, he probably got credit for time served between arrest and conviction, and if Oklahoma is anything like other states, he may only have to serve two thirds of his sentence before being eligible for parole. So, I guess it's possible he's out of prison.

Edited to add............Joe Placker could still be in prison, the arrest warrant would be served there.

[evelyn24]

Doesn't this Joe Placker (Bandidos) have children of his own who would be targeted over a great niece out in the "middle of nowhere?"...if Taylor is even his relative.

[Littledeer]

Hope no one minds. But here are all the NON-FAMILY questions/discussions that have been held so far in this thread.

Why am I doing this? So posters can see that we are not all about just the "family".

Some of these I have not seen any responses to.

In regards to the position of the bodies, I know Skyla's grandmother saw them face up, but could that be because of the EMTs? Is it possible they were face down but turned over by the EMTs? I know there has been a lot of discussion on how we think they would have fallen after being shot. I thought if they were moved in the course of the EMTs work, it may make more sense.

Just a question: Is it possible for a profiler to place the poi with a tribe affiliation?
That didn't sound right, I mean by looks.

Other than Chris (if I am not mistaken who was arrested), does anyone know if there are any other family members who are no longer in the vincity since the girls were murdered? I'm just wondering if the police, FBI, etc. might have moved them to a safer place? Other than SS who lives I believe approx. 70 miles away, do we have any other local posters that live in the area?
This guys picture needs to be splashed on the tv screen all around. Any word on AMW, NG, Greta, Larry King or anyone going to do a special on this????


Did this family go to any events, fairs, or carnivals over the weekend? Is it not possible that one or both of these angels hooked up with "someone" via email, mobile phone, or in person and told the POS where they lived? When they could meet?


We would also like to know what the girls did for the days preceding the event. Who did they talk to? LE already has the computer and they have the cell phone. Has it been mentioned if Skylar also had a cell phone?

Was this just a one night sleep over? Maybe this was Skylar's second night over or maybe the night before Taylor had slept over at Skylar's house??

Does anyone know how deep the water is under the bridge?? Are there any trails that were obvious in the ariel maps that showed County Line Road where the Plackers lived that maybe someone was on, including the girls?


So why would an outsider be on that road on that Sunday and it not be sexual?
Or...along another avenue...perhaps Taylor did take Skyla along to show her something or meet someone and Skyla threatened to tell?? I have no evidence or theory that this is what occurred or might have occurred...but we just don't know.

[Busylady]

This Tony Paschal matches the picture on Linda Kaye Plackers page - if I am reading this right he was just released 5/19/2008?

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=96494&offender_book_id=7634

linda's site for reference http://v4mp-b1tch.tripod.com/id14.html

[rccook555]

This Tony Paschal matches the picture on Linda Kaye Plackers page - if I am reading this right he was just released 5/19/2008?

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=96494&offender_book_id=7634

linda's site for reference http://v4mp-b1tch.tripod.com/id14.html

Good Catch! I think thats definitely him. Interesting on the parole date..
Pic number 6 is the same pic Linda has on her page.

[Littledeer]

Lyn:

I think that the older one told the younger one to start shooting. I think the older one did the kill shots and enjoyed it.

Your post reminded me of the Malvo or Salvo case with the older man and the youger man shooting for the thrill of it on the East Coast until they got caught. Sorry, I don't have a link handy right now. The older man also did the kill shots until the younger one started.

[oceanblueeyes]

Doesn't this Joe Placker (Bandidos) have children of his own who would be targeted over a great niece out in the "middle of nowhere?"...if Taylor is even his relative.

That is the part I don't understand.

Peter wasn't even involved in the gun running was he?

If someone was going to hit the bad Placker boys why would they go all the way to Weleetka to kill Peter's child and not one of Joe Placker's kids or grandkids?:waitasec:

imoo

[looneymama]

Joe Richard Placker jr. is the one who is serving a five-year term for selling stolen guns. He's been married (to Ann Marie Davis) and divorced, and has three children. He would be Peter Placker's nephew. Interestingly, in the custody of the three children, primary custody of the oldest child was given to Joe Placker jr, and primary custody of the two younger children to his ex-wife, Ann Marie. With Joe in prison, who now has custody of his oldest child? Who IS his oldest child?

Do you think Taylor's dad could be Joe Richard Placker jr? I know it's been said that Taylor lives with her grandparents...but she calls them her parents. With all the confusion I wouldn't be too surprised if she called her great aunt and uncle grandma and grandpa...

[MsBashterd]

This Tony Paschal matches the picture on Linda Kaye Plackers page - if I am reading this right he was just released 5/19/2008?

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=96494&offender_book_id=7634

linda's site for reference http://v4mp-b1tch.tripod.com/id14.html

My goodness at least he is consistent with his offenses!!!!! :eek:

[luthersmama]

Bandidos have been known to leave bullet-riddled bodies in rural areas before:


http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/235107

[oceanblueeyes]

Good Catch! I think thats definitely him. Interesting on the parole date..
Pic number 6 is the same pic Linda has on her page.

I think it said he was released in March but his parole time ended 5/19/08

OOPS Sorry.............that was right. I read it wrong.

[rccook555]

Do you think Taylor's dad could be Joe Richard Placker jr? I know it's been said that Taylor lives with her grandparents...but she calls them her parents. With all the confusion I wouldn't be too surprised if she called her great aunt and uncle grandma and grandpa...

Ok this is interesting, going back to the Greta clip where it sounded like he said Richard Placker as her father, im wondering now if that is what he said, since there is Joe Sr. and Joe Jr, maybe he goes by Richard, and maybe he did say Richard as a freudian slip?? Or i could just be hearing it wrong still... thought that was interesting thou

[Littledeer]

oceanblueeyes:

If someone was going to hit the bad Placker boys why would they go all the way to Weleetka to kill Peter's child and not one of Joe Placker's kids or grandkids?:waitasec:

Not sure I understand your question. But according to LE the truck did have OK plates on it. I would think by now it it was a stolen truck, it would have been released by LE. Since they have not said it, then obviously whoever got the plates for the truck lives in OK.

Can you expand on your "go all the way to Weleetka" statement and if Peter and Joe both live in the area, that wouldn't make any difference of travel. IMO

[evelyn24]

This Tony Paschal matches the picture on Linda Kaye Plackers page - if I am reading this right he was just released 5/19/2008?

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=96494&offender_book_id=7634

linda's site for reference http://v4mp-b1tch.tripod.com/id14.html

Yep..same person.

[oceanblueeyes]

Do you think Taylor's dad could be Joe Richard Placker jr? I know it's been said that Taylor lives with her grandparents...but she calls them her parents. With all the confusion I wouldn't be too surprised if she called her great aunt and uncle grandma and grandpa...

Joe Mosher who is Vicky's brother calls Taylor his niece.

I think mostly Taylor was raised from birth by Peter and Vicky and that is why she called them mom and dad. In her mind I am sure they were.

imoo

[evelyn24]

Ok this is interesting, going back to the Greta clip where it sounded like he said Richard Placker as her father, im wondering now if that is what he said, since there is Joe Sr. and Joe Jr, maybe he goes by Richard, and maybe he did say Richard as a freudian slip?? Or i could just be hearing it wrong still... thought that was interesting thou

Everyone hears MISTER Placker, not Richard Placker, on the video.
I'm sure it's mister. I've listened a couple of times.

[Littledeer]

You know one of these days I hope this happens within the ODMV office.

We know they have all the license plates issued with names, etc. But with the capabilities we have with our computers these days, they should make a file sorted by vehicle type, then license plate #, then name.

That way when all LE has is a type of vehicle and a partial plate #, they run it and see what comes up.

Sorry, I know off topic. But we have 6 and probably more witnesses that either saw the vehicle and/or Taylor and Skylar that day. I am sure at least 2 or 3 if not more, saw some part of the license plate.

[oceanblueeyes]

oceanblueeyes:



Not sure I understand your question. But according to LE the truck did have OK plates on it. I would think by now it it was a stolen truck, it would have been released by LE. Since they have not said it, then obviously whoever got the plates for the truck lives in OK.

Can you expand on your "go all the way to Weleetka" statement and if Peter and Joe both live in the area, that wouldn't make any difference of travel. IMO

But OK is a big state. What I am saying since no one knows this guy locally why would he go all the way from wherever he came from to retaliate against Peter who seems to not be involved in crime? If he had a beef with one of the Plackers that was known for their criminal wrongdoings then why not go and take out a close family member of that pack of Plackers?

imo

[FlowerChild]

From what I have gathered the bodies were both lying with their heads toward the road - one about 5' further back from the road than the other. IF they were shot under the chin then they would have been found face up - no other way to shoot them under the chin. From the video it appeared that neither girl was more than 10' off the road surface - one lying in the ditch just off the road and one just to the other (woods) side of the ditch. All the shots were reportedly made from the front - meaning the girls were facing their killer when they were shot and remained facing him thru-out the shots.

Witnesses saw the girls on the road - no-one reported the girls running up the road and the evidence (boot prints, casings) were all there at the crime scene - not elsewhere. The area has been gone over by OSBI - at least 3 times - including the area in the woods, around the bridge and along the road.

At least one girl had a cell phone with her - GPa Placker used it to call 911 when he found them.

Most of the area along the road would be fenced with at least barbed wire and have a drainage ditch at the edge of the road. It would be hard to pull a vehicle off the road unless there was a driveway or gate - which would not be in a heavily wooded area like where the girls were shot. A vehicle in the road in that location would have been clearly visible to the girls and anyone driving by.

My Opinion

[oceanblueeyes]

You know one of these days I hope this happens within the ODMV office.

We know they have all the license plates issued with names, etc. But with the capabilities we have with our computers these days, they should make a file sorted by vehicle type, then license plate #, then name.

That way when all LE has is a type of vehicle and a partial plate #, they run it and see what comes up.

Sorry, I know off topic. But we have 6 and probably more witnesses that either saw the vehicle and/or Taylor and Skylar that day. I am sure at least 2 or 3 if not more, saw some part of the license plate.

And the truck being white hurts too. White trucks are the number one color on our roads. So many companies buy white trucks for their fleets.

imoo

[evelyn24]

You know one of these days I hope this happens within the ODMV office.

We know they have all the license plates issued with names, etc. But with the capabilities we have with our computers these days, they should make a file sorted by vehicle type, then license plate #, then name.

That way when all LE has is a type of vehicle and a partial plate #, they run it and see what comes up.

Sorry, I know off topic. But we have 6 and probably more witnesses that either saw the vehicle and/or Taylor and Skylar that day. I am sure at least 2 or 3 if not more, saw some part of the license plate.


I think they can do that now if one or more people saw a number or letter in the plate. They'll try to narrow it down to white pickup trucks with Oklahoma tags. White truck, native american male, around 6 ft, with _____ letter/number on the plate.
The PC might kick back 5 thousand names matching that criteria, but at least it's a start.
Something tells me the police have an idea who the POI is, but right now it's just a waiting game to see if he turns up somewhere and someone calls to turn him into the police. At least that is what I'm hoping.

[oceanblueeyes]

I think they can do that now if one or more people saw a number or letter in the plate. They'll try to narrow it down to a white pickup trucks with Oklahoma tags.
Something tells me the police have an idea who the POI is, but right now it's just a waiting game to see if he turns up somewhere and someone calls to turn him into the police.

They seemed very confident yesterday that they are going to know who this man is.

imoo

[evelyn24]

They seemed very confident yesterday that they are going to know who this man is.

imoo

I agree. It's a big country if you want to hide, though.
Especially in the midwest, and southwest.
I pray he didn't make it to Mexico in the first 24 hours after the shootings.

[FlowerChild]

Has there been any reference to dealing drugs (or distribution) amongst the Weleetka Placker/Paschal Family members or spouses/partners?

Could someone have been upset about that? Could someone have been looking for their money? Were the Peter Plackers LISTED? As in their address? Could this person have known these Plackers were associated with the OTHER Plackers they were upset with or could this be a case of "mistaken identity? Do we know WHO lived in the house with Taylor, Vicky and Peter? Were any other family members living there, getting mail there or staying there recently?

Another thought - If he didn't look closely (or was looking from a distance) perhaps the killer didn't realize these were girls until it was too late. Pehaps he was watching and saw the girls leave from a distance and laid in wait for them to return, not realizing they were so young until he had started shooting?

My Opinion

[strach304]

Lyn:



Your post reminded me of the Malvo or Salvo case with the older man and the youger man shooting for the thrill of it on the East Coast until they got caught. Sorry, I don't have a link handy right now. The older man also did the kill shots until the younger one started.

The DC sniper. I used them as an example on the last thread.

[OrdinaryLife]

What if, *if*, the POI drove on the lane and found the girls on the side of the road? What if his truck was parked at the angle it was because he came across their bodies? Maybe that could explain the questionable behaviour and how the truck was seen on the side of the road. If he has not been found nor come out to speak to LE, perhaps he is afraid of being held accountable for their deaths???

Again, just throwing it out there. :)

[luthersmama]

It reminds me of the Lee Vanluvender case from the Poconos.

Young man out hunting was found full of bullets next to his truck. He had also fired his weapon, but there is no indication that he wounded his killer.

The thing that makes them similar to me is that they both happened in very rural areas that have recently become infested with meth labs. Criminals from NYC find it convenient to do their dirty work where police patrols are infrequent and neighbors are not too close by.

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=NEWS0933

There is nothing to suggest that Lee was involved in any criminal activity, but perhaps he saw something he shouldn't have that morning.

[harleysnana]

So out of curiousity here... I noticed that alot of emphasis has been put on the family / family tree. Do you guys suspect the family is involved or responsible for these two little girls deaths?

I don't think a family member is responsible for the girls death.
Seeing the pictures from the funeral you can see that they are suffering
and you can tell they loved her.

I do however think the murder may be someone that is know to someone if the family.

I think that Joe Placker may be one of the main witnesses
and I also think that the arrest warrant that was put out on 6-12-08 for him
may be a way to keep him safe.

Just my opinion.
I may be way off.

[Busylady]

I can't figure out how Joe Mosher is Vickys brother. Vickys maiden name is Paschal not Mosher?

Joe Mosher who is Vicky's brother calls Taylor his niece.

I think mostly Taylor was raised from birth by Peter and Vicky and that is why she called them mom and dad. In her mind I am sure they were.

imoo

[oceanblueeyes]

I can't figure out how Joe Mosher is Vickys brother. Vickys maiden name is Paschal not Mosher?

Hmmm does she have a sister? Maybe he is Vicky's brother in law?

imoo

[MissHolmes]

Regarding Joe Mosher he is hard to pin down. But please look at these two pictures. Are they one and the same? When I searched the offenders I clicked to show the alias too and Joe Mosher came up for this guy William Mosher. Are they one and the same? They look like it to me.

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=74503&offender_book_id=792

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/stuffed-animals/photo//080610/480/160737f5fd7b4304b0799dec992f6ed1//s:/ap/20080610/ap_on_re_us/girls_killed

[Busylady]

Very good find. I think they are one and the same!

Regarding Joe Mosher he is hard to pin down. But please look at these two pictures. Are they one and the same? When I searched the offenders I clicked to show the alias too and Joe Mosher came up for this guy William Mosher. Are they one and the same? They look like it to me.

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=74503&offender_book_id=792

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/stuffed-animals/photo//080610/480/160737f5fd7b4304b0799dec992f6ed1//s:/ap/20080610/ap_on_re_us/girls_killed

[Busylady]

There is a marriage record for William Lewis Mosher and Nelda Dishman

Nelda could be Nell?
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=244942&db=Cleveland

[Littledeer]

There is definately similarites there. The ears aren't exactly the same.

Btw, I noticed a large tattoo on his left lower arm on the front above his wrist area. Can anyone blow that up and see what kind of tatto it is?

[Littledeer]

strach304:

The DC sniper. I used them as an example on the last thread.

Yep, that's the one I was talking about. And now I remember it was Malvo. Sorry, I didn't catch it when you first mentioned it.

[Littledeer]

oceaneyes:

You said most of the trucks are white on your roads. You live in OK?
So seeing a white truck would not normally bring suspicion then if people are used to seeing them as utility trucks, etc?

Just went back to your post, and see you are "nestled in southern hospitality". So guess, you don't live in OK.

Wonder if this is the case in OK though for utility trucks, being a white color that is.

[Mickie Mouse]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd301/SeriouslySearching/POI1.jpg

TONY C PASCHAL
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/pls/portal30/off_lookup.get_image?no=251681

[looneymama]

Joe Mosher who is Vicky's brother calls Taylor his niece.


imoo

I guess I still don't see how that would make it impossible. I mean normally yes, if you were to say this is my grandma, this is my uncle etc... one could figure out how that all works... but this one is kind of confusing.

Plus...tight knit families may do that from time to time. I am close to my brother's wife's family and I'm called auntie by her brother's son even though I'm not really. I know it's a stretch....but it would make more sense as to why she was targeted.

[FlowerChild]

There is definately similarites there. The ears aren't exactly the same.

Btw, I noticed a large tattoo on his left lower arm on the front above his wrist area. Can anyone blow that up and see what kind of tatto it is?

The photo isn't hi rez - when I blow up the tattoo turns into blue mush. I wish the recent photo showed his right eye because the mug shot shows a scar beside his right eye. It does appear he has had a mole on his left cheek removed - there is a round scar where the mole in the mug shot was.
My Opinion

[Littledeer]

Mickie Mouse:

Don't you think the LE, etc. would know this by now and have given his name out?????????????

I agree the resemblence is there, but find it hard to believe that his name has not been release by LE as the POI.

[Claycat]

On the alternative idea, that teenagers could have done this, I believe they could have. Teens are capable of shooting or stabbing someone multiple times, especially if they are in a rage. Older killers were young at one time.

I sat on a trial where a boy had stabbed a 13 year old girl multiple times. He was 14 at the time. During his trial, he showed no emotion. He was cold and flat. We found him guilty. Unfortunately it was for juvenile misconduct. They were not trying juvenile murderers as adults at that time.

Can a teenager shoot someone multiple times? You bet!

[philamena]

Bandidos have been known to leave bullet-riddled bodies in rural areas before:


http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/235107


:eek:

[oceanblueeyes]

OK I have been thinking about something.

We know they have several ear witnesses that heard gunshots but they have not released when the witnesses are saying they heard them.

We also know it was said that the POI sort of had his truck at an angle blocking the way in the road. Even though we do not know LE knows which side of the road he was on and which shoulder was closer. I wonder if it was the same side where the girls were?

What if he had just killed the girls and he saw the car coming up ahead so that is why he blocks their view and they couldn't see what he was doing. What if he was blocking the view of the girls bodies laying there until the witness could pass where he could leave after they had gone on by? That would make it more understandable why LE said they have evidence that someone did a u-turn in the road. He would not want to run up on the people in the vehicle again that had just past him back at the scene so he would go the other way.

imoo

[Littledeer]

claycat:

Thanks for pointing out that "kids" can kill like that. How many times have I read about it here??

Guess, I still find it hard to believe and think of it last. WS has certainly opened my eyes up. But I still, don't think of it has a normal occurence.

I know what I mean, but it's not coming out right.

:bang:

[philamena]

From what I have gathered the bodies were both lying with their heads toward the road - ...

Hi Flowerchild,
If you can, watch the tape from last night's Greta.
The OSBI man said that one of the girls was found in the ditch. The other girl was laying with her head near where the stuffed bear is in the video.
I took that to mean the girls were laying perpendicular to each other. If that's true, the girls were not laying side by side next to the road.

[philamena]

SNIP
But we have 6 and probably more witnesses that either saw the vehicle and/or Taylor and Skylar that day. I am sure at least 2 or 3 if not more, saw some part of the license plate.

Hi Littledeer,
Where did you get the info that there are 6 or more witnesses? TIA

[Littledeer]

Hi Flowerchild,
If you can, watch the tape from last night's Greta.
The OFBI man said that one of the girls was found in the ditch. The other girl was laying with her head near where the stuffed bear is in the video.
I took that to mean the girls were laying perpendicular to each other. If that's true, the girls were not laying side by side next to the road.

I really wish transcripts would be made of these videos, etc. for people like me who can't see them or hear them!!

So either Tyler or Skyla was laying forward to the woods (for lack of a better description) and Tyler or Skyler was found in the ditch. (No direction or mention of face up or face down given). Is that right??

[Littledeer]

philamena:

I thought 6 was mentioned in one of the earlier threads and I threw in "or more" based on the revised timeline that came out when the girls left the house.

Will go see where I saw that at. Must have seen mention of it somewhere for me to type it.

[Claycat]

Littledeer, you explained just fine! I know what you mean. It is hard to believe teens can do that. When I forget that, I think of that trial, or I think of Columbine.

[philamena]

I really wish transcripts would be made of these videos, etc. for people like me who can't see them or hear them!!

So either Tyler or Skyla was laying forward to the woods (for lack of a better description) and Tyler or Skyler was found in the ditch. (No direction or mention of face up or face down given). Is that right??


That's how I understood it Littledeer.
I'm going to go watch the tape from Greta again.
I don't want to say the wrong thing.

[FlowerChild]

On the alternative idea, that teenagers could have done this, I believe they could have. Teens are capable of shooting or stabbing someone multiple times, especially if they are in a rage. Older killers were young at one time.

I sat on a trial where a boy had stabbed a 13 year old girl multiple times. He was 14 at the time. During his trial, he showed no emotion. He was cold and flat. We found him guilty. Unfortunately it was for juvenile misconduct. They were not trying juvenile murderers as adults at that time.

Can a teenager shoot someone multiple times? You bet!
Where did the kids get not one but TWO handguns? One a 9mm Automatic? Any parent/adult in the area with a pulse would miss those guns from their house/gun safe in the wake of this I'd think. A kid/young adult with Shotgun or a Rifle wouldn't raise an eyebrow in that part of the country but a young person with a handgun (or two) would be notable outside a target shooting environment with a parent present.

Of course kids kill - they have killed and they will kill...some things are hardwired and sociopaths only require a slight nudge to blossom into Ted Bundy.

I don't see THIS murder as done by a kid (or kids) tho - too neatly accomplished at VERY close range and with two guns. There was an experienced adult killer (of humans) involved here I am thinking.

My Opinion

[Mickie Mouse]

Mickie Mouse:

Don't you think the LE, etc. would know this by now and have given his name out?????????????

I agree the resemblence is there, but find it hard to believe that his name has not been release by LE as the POI.


Hi Littledeer:

Yes, the resemblence is certainly there, and LE, etc. no doubt does know this by now, but they probably wouldn't give his name out as the POI at this point in time, if he were the POI, if they had good reason not to.

I was just struck by the resemblence......

[Claycat]

Oh, I tried for more intuitive clues today. I got the names Brian and Lazarus (a nickname?) and the word lasso. I get these things and don't know what to do with them, because they mean nothing to me. Sometimes they mean something to the people involved.

Just like the words Pop Tarts that I got. I have no idea where that came from. I don't eat Pop Tarts. I wish things would come more clearly.

[MissHolmes]

In regards to my previous post about Joe Mosher and possibly having the alias of William Mosher. This is bizarre. I was inputting all the names of the indicted ones from the Bandidos gang in the Ok. offenders database. And who shows up? Smith Beal, indicted, has the same picture as William Mosher.
Now what is up with that?? :eek:

[FlowerChild]

Hi Flowerchild,
If you can, watch the tape from last night's Greta.
The OFBI man said that one of the girls was found in the ditch. The other girl was laying with her head near where the stuffed bear is in the video.
I took that to mean the girls were laying perpendicular to each other. If that's true, the girls were not laying side by side next to the road.
I saw the video - what I was trying to say is BOTH girls fell with their heads in the direction of the road. One in the ditch next to the road (about 5' off the road) and one about 5 -8 feet further into the woods. I am going to try and make a sketch of what Rosser described at the scene.

My Opinion

[oceanblueeyes]

Where did the kids get not one but TWO handguns? One a 9mm Automatic? Any parent/adult in the area with a pulse would miss those guns from their house/gun safe in the wake of this I'd think. A kid/young adult with Shotgun or a Rifle wouldn't raise an eyebrow in that part of the country but a young person with a handgun (or two) would be notable outside a target shooting environment with a parent present.

Of course kids kill - they have killed and they will kill...some things are hardwired and sociopaths only require a slight nudge to blossom into Ted Bundy.

I don't see THIS murder as done by a kid (or kids) tho - too neatly accomplished at VERY close range and with two guns. There was an experienced adult killer (of humans) involved here I am thinking.

My Opinion

I don't know Flower...in one way it seems like someone who had little experience that did it imo. They shot nine times that we know of and it may have been even more times than that. I think a skilled hardened killer would have killed them without having to use two guns and multiple bullets.

But if it was a cold unfeeling murderer who had gotten ticked off highly about something then I do think they would have kept shooting just out of sheer rage and meanness.

So I am back and forth on that.

imoo

[Claycat]

In regards to my previous post about Joe Mosher and possibly having the alias of William Mosher. This is bizarre. I was inputting all the names of the indicted ones from the Bandidos gang in the Ok. offenders database. And who shows up? Smith Beal, indicted, has the same picture as William Mosher.
Now what is up with that?? :eek:

OMG, you may be totally onto something, MissHolmes! :eek:

[SuziQ]

I agree and now we know that Joe Placker wasn't even a big player in the Federal case. I just still do not see why any family members would do this...even the family members that have less than spotless records. That seems even more unrealistic that they would just go shoot two girls, one who was their own kin.:waitasec:

I think it is like you are suggesting. Sometime between 4:30pm and 5:20pm I do think he saw them on the road somewhere before they were killed. What happened before they were killed when he did see them, I have no clue but imo he then formed the intent he was going to kill them both.

He certainly had the opportunity and he took it.

imoo

Joe's involvement may seem insignificant. Realize though most cases are plead down. The original involvement could have been much more serious. And I don't think anyone is suspecting the family of pulling the trigger or ordering a hit on these girls. It's the criminal element surrounding this family that is suspect and could have led to trouble.

[poco]

There is definately similarites there. The ears aren't exactly the same.

Btw, I noticed a large tattoo on his left lower arm on the front above his wrist area. Can anyone blow that up and see what kind of tatto it is?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/pocogeejo/mosher-1.jpg

Not much help, looks like a blob.........

[Claycat]

I was just looking and I don't think Smith Beal is William Mosher. The eyes and other parts of the face are not the same. That doesn't mean they couldn't be related!

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=94817&offender_book_id=6304


However, I definitely think William Mosher is Joe Mosher.


http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/se...er_book_id=792 (http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=74503&offender_book_id=792)

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/stuffe...s/girls_killed (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/stuffed-animals/photo//080610/480/160737f5fd7b4304b0799dec992f6ed1//s:/ap/20080610/ap_on_re_us/girls_killed)

[MissHolmes]

I was just looking and I don't think Smith Beal is William Mosher. The eyes and other parts of the face are not the same. That doesn't mean they couldn't be related!

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=94817&offender_book_id=6304


Your right! Gad my eyes are failing now :crazy:

[poco]

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=94817&offender_book_id=6304

to weird - Smith J. Beal...... Charles Alden...... DOB 6/3/49

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=74503&offender_boo