Evidence of Torture used at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib

[believe09]

So much for the idea that Abu Ghraib was an anomaly...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080618/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/detainees_rights_report;_ylt=AgzFEdRPX2h168wJAJ1_0 ZOs0NUE

I want to be clear that the former prisoners were released without charges-so the idea that they were high level enemy combatants who were giving information of critical importance is suspect...

[Trino]

So much for the idea that Abu Ghraib was an anomaly...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080618/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/detainees_rights_report;_ylt=AgzFEdRPX2h168wJAJ1_0 ZOs0NUE

I want to be clear that the former prisoners were released without charges-so the idea that they were high level enemy combatants who were giving information of critical importance is suspect...

Certainly makes a person proud to be an American these days, doesn't it? IMO Bush and Cheney should be tried for war crimes.

[angelmom]

Certainly makes a person proud to be an American these days, doesn't it? IMO Bush and Cheney should be tried for war crimes.

Why? Were they there?

I don't mean to be callous, but some of these allegations of "torture" are stretching it pretty far. One guy claims to have been sodomized but won't allow a medical exam, so who knows if it is true? Who knows if one of his fellow prisoners did it and he is blaming it on the soldiers? Or maybe it is true, but one case does not make a pattern of abuse that goes all the way to the commander in chief.

The other 3 sexual accusations were "anal probes" (hello? Cavity search?) or being "threatened with rape." I think we've all watched enough TV shows to imagine an interrogation technique where it is suggested that the suspect might be put in jail with the general population and what might happen there. Is that a crime? If so, handcuff our police force b/c I think they might make those same suggestions when trying to convince a suspect to confess.

This paragraph from the link above probably made John McCain laugh out loud:

The abuse of some prisoners by their American captors is well documented by the government's own reports. Once-secret documents show that the Pentagon and Justice Department allowed, at least for a time, forced nakedness, isolation, sleep deprivation and humiliation at both Guantanamo Bay Naval Base and at Abu Ghraib.

Wow. I'd much rather be beaten and starved near to death.

Of course, this one isn't until the bottom of the article:

Because the medical examiners did not have access to the 11 patients' medical histories prior to their imprisonment, it was not possible to know whether any of the prisoners' ailments, disabilities and scars pre-dated their confinement. The U.S. military says an al-Qaida training manual instructs members, if captured, to assert they were tortured during interrogation.

[Cypros]

Of course the Gitmo detainees are/were tortured. That is the entire purpose of the Gitmo facility -- so that the US can bypass international laws.

While I have little concern about individuals who truly are terrorists, the major problem with Gitmo is that there is no trial and no proof that any of the detainees are terrorists or that they did ANYTHING wrong. According to the American justice system, if you are Arab you are a terrorist and subject to torture. It is despicable!

"Road to Guantanamo" is based on a true story of young British men who traveled to Afghanistan via Pakistan for a family wedding at the time of the US invasion of Afghanistan and ended up spending years as detainees at Gitmo. The farce was eventually revealed but not all made it home alive.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468094/

[Trino]

angelmom, not to dispute that there is a possibility that the detainees are following instructions, but doesn't the article mention that examines have verified abuse?

[Karole28]

angelmom, not to dispute that there is a possibility that the detainees are following instructions, but doesn't the article mention that examines have verified abuse?

One Iraqi prisoner, identified only as Yasser
Another Iraqi, identified only as Rahman

Yeah sorry, hurting their feelings and making them uncomfortable, really doesn't qualify as torture to me.

[Claycat]

They were tortured! Believe it!

Cheney and Bush do need to be tried for war crimes and then hanged!

[ember]

One Iraqi prisoner, identified only as Yasser
Another Iraqi, identified only as Rahman

Yeah sorry, hurting their feelings and making them uncomfortable, really doesn't qualify as torture to me.


I'm with you Karole....at least not when they behead innocent civilians like Nick Berg....no comparison in my book!

I just saw Lyndie England the other day at our local video store. She is from the same small town that I live in. She walks around with her head down, not making eye contact because she is unsure what people around here think of her. I smiled at her and said hello. She smiled back. I feel sorry for her because, imo, she really was fed to the wolves for something that she was told to do......

[Trino]

I'm with you Karole....at least not when they behead innocent civilians like Nick Berg....no comparison in my book!

THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg. If someone is innocent, they should have an opportunity to defend themselves.

Try this story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

It is my understanding that there were detainees that were actually spies for America that were turned in as insurgents by our enemies. We detained abused and detained these guys w/o any opportunity to defend themselves.

[Karole28]

I'm with you Karole....at least not when they behead innocent civilians like Nick Berg....no comparison in my book!

I just saw Lyndie England the other day at our local video store. She is from the same small town that I live in. She walks around with her head down, not making eye contact because she is unsure what people around here think of her. I smiled at her and said hello. She smiled back. I feel sorry for her because, imo, she really was fed to the wolves for something that she was told to do......

Yeah, I can imagine she'll never be the same person she was before that happened. My sympathy to her.


I just cannot get too worked up over the "humiliation" and "scare tactics" outlined in this article.

What does get me worked up is that people refer to it as torture.
""They took off even my underwear. They asked me to do some movements that make me look in a very bad way so they can take photographs. ... They were trying to make me look like an animal," Laith told examiners, according to the report"

============================

Oh nooooes! Not an animal!


Yeah sorry, can't work up any outrage here.

[Karole28]

THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg. If someone is innocent, they should have an opportunity to defend themselves.

Try this story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

That's a sad story. Unfortunately the same thing has happened in American courts (innocents imprisoned) thankfully, he got sorted out.

It is my understanding that there were detainees that were actually spies for America that were turned in as insurgents by our enemies. We detained abused and detained these guys w/o any opportunity to defend themselves.

Link or it didn't happen.

[lew657]

I don't really understand the outrage here - they are being treated better than an American would be if they were accused of a crime in their country? Or even if they were accused? The presumption of innocence does not exist in all countries.

[believe09]

I knew when I posted the story that since there were not videos included of the abuses with USA Servicemen participating in the abuse, that it would be a sufficient out for some in terms of the story's authenticity. I am extremely familiar with the Physicians group that did the exams, and to a physician they have been beyond reproach and objective. If this were a finding against Al Quaida then there would be hot moral outrage here that would be overwhelming.

I started the thread because I think it is a great byline to the Supreme Court's ruling on the writ of habeus corpus for these folks. My expectation is that there will be large releases of some of these prisoners prior to any documentation of evidence or charges-they will be put on a plane home, the documents will be destroyed or lost and the price of their freedom will be either their silence or being smeared as to the accuracy of what they are reporting.

JMO

[ember]

THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg. If someone is innocent, they should have an opportunity to defend themselves.

Try this story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

It is my understanding that there were detainees that were actually spies for America that were turned in as insurgents by our enemies. We detained abused and detained these guys w/o any opportunity to defend themselves.

True torture I do not agree with at all, but I don't believe that humiliation and intimidation count as torture as far as I'm concerned. That is what I was stating. It's my opinion.

And no, not everyone beheaded Nick Berg or Daniel Pearle or Paul Johnson but for the most part, they are worse than animals over there...they behead their own women for their desire to make free choices....so you'll have to excuse me if I don't think that that pushing them around a bit is a crime.

Does anyone remember that some of these "people" who have screamed foul ATTACKED OUR COUNTRY and would like to see us all dead????
Sorry to say but I really don't give a d*mn about their rights!!!

[believe09]

I don't really understand the outrage here - they are being treated better than an American would be if they were accused of a crime in their country? Or even if they were accused? The presumption of innocence does not exist in all countries.

Are ya kidding me? Would that hold water for you if you were the prisoner or the parent of one? "Quit yer b**chin while I up the volts; imagine how bad you would have it if you weren't being held by the USA..."????

[Claycat]

Actually, I believe there is a physician who has since come about about Gitmo. I'll see if I can find that info.

In the meantime, here is a 60 Minutes video about a German born man of Turkish heritage who lost 5 years of his life at Gitmo and was tortured as well.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/rights/80806/

[believe09]

True torture I do not agree with at all, but I don't believe that humiliation and intimidation doesn't count as torture as far as I'm concerned. That is what I was stating. It's my opinion. Don't attack me for it. And no not everyone beheaded Nick Berg or Daniel Pearle or Paul Johnson but for the most part, they are worse than animals over there...they behead their own women for their desire to make free choices....so you'll have to excuse me if I don't think that that pushing them around a bit is a crime.

Does anyone remember that some of these "people" who have screamed foul ATTACKED OUR COUNTRY and would like to see us all dead????
Sorry to say but I really don't give a d*mn about their rights!!!

It was by and large SAUDI ARABIANS who attacked this country friend.

[Claycat]

I am in the camp of those who believe 9/11 was an inside job and that the Mossad were involved as much as the Saudis, maybe more.

[Claycat]

Physicians find evidence of torture.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25218584/

[believe09]

I adore this country-It is the greatest industrialized nation in the world-the principles that this government are formed on are the the fairest, most rationale, most humanistic IMO of any other government out there-we have gone astray...our strength is not in emulating the weaknesses of other regimes. Our strength is in maintaining our own unique strengths.

Again, IMO.

[angelmom]

angelmom, not to dispute that there is a possibility that the detainees are following instructions, but doesn't the article mention that examines have verified abuse?

Trino, the "verification" comes from psychologists who have "confirmed" the trauma to these 11 men (out of how many detainees?). My problems are that a) the only admitted "torture" doesn't sound like what I call torture. See my post above. It sounds like jail. I have a hard time feeling sorry for them. Now in the case of people detained for no reason, then yes that is wrong. But it does happen, even here, and in other countries all the time. Does that make Bush a war criminal? Please.
b) there is absolutely no physical proof that any of the scars or damage took place once they were in custody b/c there are no medical records predating that. They only have the word of the detainees. Could they be lying? Maybe. al-Quaeda training teaches them to lie about torture b/c they know that the American media will eat it up and the American public cannot stomach it.
c) The torture that has been "confirmed" by a doctor is by a psychologist, who can only say that these men have PTSD. Again, who is to say that it isn't from previous events? Or that they aren't lying? We know that prisoners here in the US have faked mental illness to avoid justice, so why couldn't these men? And does having PTSD mean that they were tortured? I have heard of people having PTSD from bad car accidents and other traumatic events. It doesn't mean that they were tortured.

I really don't mean to make light of a serious subject, but to paint the entire military (and the president) with a broad brush b/c of this psychologist who has decided jail is unpleasant really makes me ill. Maybe he should do a tour and then reassess the situation.

They were tortured! Believe it!

Cheney and Bush do need to be tried for war crimes and then hanged!

Whatever! :hand:s

[T-Rex]

There was a video on YouTube of soldiers relaxing. Two were asking a third what it had been like to serve at Abu Ghraib. He told a story of a young female captive who was gang-raped all day, until she finally hung herself. He laughed. (It was my impression the other two were setting him up, and he didn't know he was being recorded.)

[angelmom]

Physicians find evidence of torture.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25218584/

From your link:

Because the medical examiners did not have access to the 11 patients' medical histories prior to their imprisonment, it was not possible to know whether any of the prisoners' ailments, disabilities and scars pre-dated their confinement. The U.S. military says an al-Qaida training manual instructs members, if captured, to assert they were tortured during interrogation.

[Claycat]

Of course, there will always be the little disclaimer at the end, because MSNBC is main stream media, and they are totally controlled.


Whatever?

You must have voted for Bush!

[Karole28]

This guy knows about torture.

Click! (http://www.glynn.k12.ga.us/BHS/academics/junior/durham/resdent35456/home.html)

Re: The Bataan death march (my parents have a friend who survived this)

They didn't even want to waste bullets on us, just stabbed us to death." Those who didn't fall were forced to keep going by being beaten with razor sharp bamboo sticks or rifle butts.

Picture of the Bataan deathmarch

Suffering from dysentery, diarrhea, beriberi, and malaria, the POW's were crammed on to barges and sent to Manila. From there they were marched another 75-100 miles to POW camp Cabawon #1. All they were fed was rice and watery soup. Those that were too weak or ill to work were given even less food. At the camp, my grandfather was given a work detail of cutting lumber. He also worked in a steel factory for Mitibishi, and now he refuses to buy a Japanese made car. There were constant beatings, torturing, and arbitrary executions. The men never knew if they would live or die each day. My Grandfather still has nightmares from the expert torture he received at the hands of his Japanese captors. Because of some of the ways they tortured him he was not able to have any children. My grandfather now has two-step children, one of which is my mother. One time they tied his hands and legs together and left him in the tropical sun for 3 days, which just about killed him. Every now and then he still has flash backs and he doesn't know where he is and tries to escape. He told me, "They worked us as slave labor-loading and unloading boxcars. We stole anything we could get our hands on. If we were caught, we would get severely beaten. Some lost their life over a few grains of rice."
==========================

What is outlined in that article re: Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, is not torture.

[Karole28]

I am in the camp of those who believe 9/11 was an inside job and that the Mossad were involved as much as the Saudis, maybe more.

Uhh..yeah. You have fun with that.

:silenced:

[Karole28]

Gitmo guards often attacked by detainees

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press
Monday, July 31, 2006

WASHINGTON — The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons, Pentagon reports say.

Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.

They’ve been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small "bean holes" used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say. Serious assaults requiring medical attention, however, are rare, the reports indicate.

Click (http://sweetness-light.com/archive/prisoners-have-attacked-gitmo-guards-440-times)

Define torture again?

[ember]

I am in the camp of those who believe 9/11 was an inside job and that the Mossad were involved as much as the Saudis, maybe more.


I work for the military and am privy to things that most aren't. I have listened to the black box tapes from plane that went down in Pennsylvania. It was not Americans controlling that plane.

Those BS conspiracy theories just destroy our country from within.

Some of those hijackers may have come from Saudi Arabia but that doesn't mean that the Saudi's initialized 911.

Least we forget that President Clinton pardoned one of the guys who then thanked our country by hijacking one of those planes and in turn, brought great grief to our country.

[Claycat]

"None so blind as those who refuse to see!"

[believe09]

Gitmo guards often attacked by detainees

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press
Monday, July 31, 2006

WASHINGTON — The prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay during the war on terror have attacked their military guards hundreds of times, turning broken toilet parts, utensils, radios and even a bloody lizard tail into makeshift weapons, Pentagon reports say.

Incident reports reviewed by The Associated Press indicate Military Police guards are routinely head-butted, spat upon and doused by "cocktails" of feces, urine, vomit and sperm collected in meal cups by the prisoners.

They’ve been repeatedly grabbed, punched or assaulted by prisoners who reach through the small "bean holes" used to deliver food and blankets through cell doors, the reports say. Serious assaults requiring medical attention, however, are rare, the reports indicate.

Click (http://sweetness-light.com/archive/prisoners-have-attacked-gitmo-guards-440-times)

Define torture again?

This is day to day in the prison system as well....so let's give corrections officers the same freedom. BTW, notice that service people brought up on charges at Abu Ghraib were former corrections officers before being brought over to Iraq...there was a plan.

The Geneva Convention clearly defines what torture is. I understand those who feel these inmates got off easily with barely defined torture. Hanoi Hilton and Bataan Death march are black and white examples-however you cannot tell me that electrocution, sodomy, stress positions, isolation and sleep deprivation are not torture. Or waterboarding. Or gang rape. Or dog bites.

Did they achieve their objectives in getting inmates to disclose information that would save the lives of the US service people and the contractors? Probably we will never know...but given the casualty count of both...hmmmmm.

[ember]

"None so blind as those who refuse to see!"


Ok, if you can see it...where is your proof?
Post it for all to see.
Make us a believer that 9/11 was an inside job.

I know better and have seen proof.

[Karole28]

Ok, if you can see it...where is your proof?
Post it for all to see.
Make us a believer that 9/11 was an inside job.

Now they're going to post that crazy chicken wire/concrete block video!

in 3-2-1

:doh:

[believe09]

I work for the military and am privy to things that most aren't. I have listened to the black box tapes from plane that went down in Pennsylvania. It was not Americans controlling that plane.

Those BS conspiracy theories just destroy our country from within.

Some of those hijackers may have come from Saudi Arabia but that doesn't mean that the Saudi's initialized 911.

Least we forget that President Clinton pardoned one of the guys who then thanked our country by hijacking one of those planes and in turn, brought great grief to our country.

Some?????? 11 out of 19, wasn't it or was it 15? Al Qaida and Iraq is like saying the Black Panthers work hand in hand with the Klan here in the US, but we can leave that discussion for another thread.

Clinton and Bush were not the architects of 9/11-that is way too simplistic.

Of course Americans were not in control of the planes-but what we are talking about here on this thread is whether we are torturing detainees and what we gain/lose from doing that.

[Karole28]

This is day to day in the prison system as well....so let's give corrections officers the same freedom. BTW, notice that service people brought up on charges at Abu Ghraib were former corrections officers before being brought over to Iraq...there was a plan.

The Geneva Convention clearly defines what torture is. I understand those who feel these inmates got off easily with barely defined torture. Hanoi Hilton and Bataan Death march are black and white examples-however you cannot tell me that electrocution, sodomy, stress positions, isolation and sleep deprivation are not torture. Or waterboarding. Or gang rape. Or dog bites.

Did they achieve their objectives in getting inmates to disclose information that would save the lives of the US service people and the contractors? Probably we will never know...but given the casualty count of both...hmmmmm.


I'm not convinced any of that happened!

Go into any prison in the US, take a "torture" poll. I'm sure those men will claim the same type of abuses.

They're fed Halal meals for G*d's sake! If you glance sideways at a Koran they'll scream for their lawyers.

[Rino]

Ok, if you can see it...where is your proof?
Post it for all to see.
Make us a believer that 9/11 was an inside job.



Originally Posted by Claycat http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2305125#post2305125)
They were tortured! Believe it!


We don't need no stinkin' proof :snooty:

[believe09]

I'm not convinced any of that happened!

Go into any prison in the US, take a "torture" poll. I'm sure those men will claim the same type of abuses.

They're fed Halal meals for G*d's sake! If you glance sideways at a Koran they'll scream for their lawyers.


What lawyers?? What are you talking about? Detainees do not get attorneys-they are being held as enemy combatants and were about to face military tribunals with no representation.

[ember]

:laugh:Now they're going to post that crazy chicken wire/concrete block video!

in 3-2-1

:doh:

You crack me up!



Some?????? 11 out of 19, wasn't it or was it 15? Al Qaida and Iraq is like saying the Black Panthers work hand in hand with the Klan here in the US, but we can leave that discussion for another thread.

Clinton and Bush were not the architects of 9/11-that is way too simplistic.

Of course Americans were not in control of the planes-but what we are talking about here on this thread is whether we are torturing detainees and what we gain/lose from doing that.


You're right...I got off track. Sorry about that but this is very touchy subject with me. I have 3 generations of military men behind me and work every day with the bravest, most unselfish men and women in the world. I have always been very patriotic so any words against my country brings my claws out.

[Karole28]

What lawyers?? What are you talking about? Detainees do not get attorneys-they are being held as enemy combatants and were about to face military tribunals with no representation.

Oh rlly?

U.S. Won’t Limit Detainees’ Visits With Attorneys

By WILLIAM GLABERSON
Published: May 12, 2007
The Justice Department yesterday withdrew one of its proposals to tighten restrictions on lawyers representing detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, but said it would continue to press a federal appeals court for other limitations on the lawyers.

In a court filing yesterday morning, department lawyers said they were no longer asking the appeals court in Washington to limit the lawyers to three visits with detainees at the Guantánamo naval base, where about 380 men are now held.

A series of department proposals to curtail detainees’ lawyers drew wide attention and was criticized by legal groups and in Congress, with opponents saying the Bush administration was denying detainees the most rudimentary tools to challenge their confinement.

“After further consideration of this issue by the Department of Defense,” the tersely worded filing said, the government “is no longer seeking to incorporate a three-visit threshold for the number of counsel visits.”

Click! (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/washington/12gitmo.html)

[angelmom]

This is day to day in the prison system as well....so let's give corrections officers the same freedom. BTW, notice that service people brought up on charges at Abu Ghraib were former corrections officers before being brought over to Iraq...there was a plan.

The Geneva Convention clearly defines what torture is. I understand those who feel these inmates got off easily with barely defined torture. Hanoi Hilton and Bataan Death march are black and white examples-however you cannot tell me that electrocution, sodomy, stress positions, isolation and sleep deprivation are not torture. Or waterboarding. Or gang rape. Or dog bites.

Did they achieve their objectives in getting inmates to disclose information that would save the lives of the US service people and the contractors? Probably we will never know...but given the casualty count of both...hmmmmm.

Okay, this article did not mention waterboarding, gang rape or dog bites. There was one allegation, not confirmed, of sodomy. The evidence of electrocution was scars that could not be verified if it happened during or before the detention. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but just like in a court of law in the US, I want some actual evidence. We would never convict someone here on just a witness statement (especially a biased one) and no proof, so I expect the same degree of justice for our military.

Stress positions I will give you, depending on the position. Some people would call being handcuffed a stress position. If you throw feces at me, you can bet your ass I'm going to restrain you so you can't do it again, though.

Sleep deprivation, forced nakedness, and isolation isn't fun but I don't know if I'd call it torture. Actually it sounds like childbirth and parenting a newborn to me, but I digress. Again, no proof, except a psychologist's report. Could go either way.

[believe09]

:laugh:

You crack me up!






You're right...I got off track. Sorry about that but this is very touchy subject with me. I have 3 generations of military men behind me and work every day with the bravest, most unselfish men and women in the world. I have always been very patriotic so any words against my country bring my claws out.

Ditto-but that means I do not have the right to explore it's weaknesses? I would die for this country, no problem, ok unless I had to choose my children first then all bets are off maybe, but part of being a patriot is questioning...

[ember]

We don't need no stinkin' proof :snooty:


We always need proof! And I mean good solid proof.
Claims without proof are counter productive and disruptive.
I'm a "show me the money" the kind of girl. :D

but again....I'm getting O/T....I better behave!

[believe09]

Okay, this article did not mention waterboarding, gang rape or dog bites. There was one allegation, not confirmed, of sodomy. The evidence of electrocution was scars that could not be verified if it happened during or before the detention. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but just like in a court of law in the US, I want some actual evidence. We would never convict someone here on just a witness statement (especially a biased one) and no proof, so I expect the same degree of justice for our military.

Stress positions I will give you, depending on the position. Some people would call being handcuffed a stress position. If you throw feces at me, you can bet your ass I'm going to restrain you so you can't do it again, though.

Sleep deprivation, forced nakedness, and isolation isn't fun but I don't know if I'd call it torture. Actually it sounds like childbirth and parenting a newborn to me, but I digress. Again, no proof, except a psychologist's report. Could go either way.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/27/060227fa_fact
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080310/tuttle2
http://www.thestate.com/nationwire/story/436641.html

[believe09]

Oh rlly?

U.S. Won’t Limit Detainees’ Visits With Attorneys

By WILLIAM GLABERSON
Published: May 12, 2007
The Justice Department yesterday withdrew one of its proposals to tighten restrictions on lawyers representing detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, but said it would continue to press a federal appeals court for other limitations on the lawyers.

In a court filing yesterday morning, department lawyers said they were no longer asking the appeals court in Washington to limit the lawyers to three visits with detainees at the Guantánamo naval base, where about 380 men are now held.

A series of department proposals to curtail detainees’ lawyers drew wide attention and was criticized by legal groups and in Congress, with opponents saying the Bush administration was denying detainees the most rudimentary tools to challenge their confinement.

“After further consideration of this issue by the Department of Defense,” the tersely worded filing said, the government “is no longer seeking to incorporate a three-visit threshold for the number of counsel visits.”

Click! (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/washington/12gitmo.html)

U.S. to Allow Key Detainees to Request Lawyers

14 Terrorism Suspects Given Legal Forms at Guantanamo

By Josh White and Joby Warrick (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/email/josh+white+and+joby+warrick/)
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 28, 2007; Page A01


Fourteen "high-value" terrorism suspects who were transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Guantanamo+Bay?tid=informline), from secret CIA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Central+Intelligence+Agency?tid=informline) prisons last year have been formally offered the right to request lawyers, a move that could allow them to join other detainees in challenging their status as enemy combatants in a U.S. appellate court.
The move, confirmed by Defense Department (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Department+of+Defense?tid=informline) officials, will allow the suspects their first contact with anyone other than their captors and representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/International+Federation+of+Red+Cross+and+Red+Cres cent+Societies?tid=informline) since they were taken into custody.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/27/AR2007092702458.html

[Karole28]

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/27/060227fa_fact

Yeah, proof. Fom an unbiased source. Not something with this next to the article (alleging an internal memo)

http://www.newyorker.com/images/covers/2006/2006_02_27_v256.jpg

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080310/tuttle2

Ditto for the Nation. Sample byline: McRats for McCain

http://www.thestate.com/nationwire/story/436641.html

Do a google search for Tom Lasseter. Every article is anti American military. ex (paraphrasing): "Military morale low under Bush", "More abuse at Gitmo outlined".

C'mon now. I'm not gonna bombard you with Ann Coulter articles.

[Rino]

What lawyers?? What are you talking about? Detainees do not get attorneys-they are being held as enemy combatants and were about to face military tribunals with no representation.
thats not so.

[angelmom]

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/02/27/060227fa_fact
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080310/tuttle2
http://www.thestate.com/nationwire/story/436641.html

I read all three of these. I didn't see anywhere where it said that the administration argued that dog bites, gang rape, or even waterboarding were permissable. The first article said Rumsfeld withheld judgement on waterboarding.

The big debate was how long detainees could be forced to stand - 4 hours max - when factory workers frequently stand for longer; how long they could be put in isolation or deprived of sleep; if their phobias could be exploited (fear of dogs, for example); or if they could be humiliated (forced to wear a bra or be naked). Again, I think some of our POWs would gladly change places. Not that it makes it right, but let's not forget we are at war.

And even Mr. Mora in the New Yorker article says that he feels these were patriots who, in the fear of more bodies after 9/11, got off track.

[Karole28]

I started the thread because I think it is a great byline to the Supreme Court's ruling on the writ of habeus corpus for these folks. My expectation is that there will be large releases of some of these prisoners prior to any documentation of evidence or charges-they will be put on a plane home, the documents will be destroyed or lost and the price of their freedom will be either their silence or being smeared as to the accuracy of what they are reporting.

JMO

Here's an example of how bad this ruling is. When one Islamic goon was managed to get access to the U.S. courts his attorney filed some discovery motions that forced our government to turn over intelligence gathering information. Contained in that information was the fact that we had been monitoring bin Laden's cell phone. Guess what happened within days? You got it. Osama's cell phone went dead. We haven't picked up on his new one yet. Good work.


(Credit, Neal Boortz)

[Karole28]

We always need proof! And I mean good solid proof.
Claims without proof are counter productive and disruptive.
I'm a "show me the money" the kind of girl. :D

but again....I'm getting O/T....I better behave!


Haditha comes to mind.

[ember]

Haditha comes to mind.

I had gotten off topic when I posted that....I meant I wanted proof that 9/11 was an inside job. But that's for another thread!

Haditha was horrible and unjust....no reason for killing innocent civilians....but I guess when those Marines had to endure their buddies dying, they saw red and became what they were trained to be....killing machines....it's no excuse of course......

Only our guys over there know what they go through every day. I see them come back so very haunted and have all of the resepect in the world for them, regardless of the mistakes some of them may make. I'd never want to be in their shoes but am very, very thankful for them.

[Karole28]

I had gotten off topic when I posted that....I meant I wanted proof that 9/11 was an inside job. But that's for another thread!

Haditha was horrible and unjust....no reason for killing innocent civilians....but I guess when those Marines had to endure their buddies dying, they saw red and became what they were trained to be....killing machines....it's no excuse of course......

Only our guys over there know what they go through every day. I see them come back so very haunted and have all of the resepect in the world for them, regardless of the mistakes some of them may make. I'd never want to be in their shoes but am very, very thankful for them.


No hon, you misunderstood. The Haditha marines are being cleared of all charges. It was a put up. Here: Click (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/16/haditha-watch-the-fate-of-lt-col-jeffrey-chessani/) and Murtha Lied; Marines Were Tried (And Acquitted) (http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5592C7D8-5C37-4C59-AC3C-F95CE4E3D179)
It's not your fault you haven't heard a lot about it, the mainstream isn't really reporting it.

I just meant, people shouldn't believe everything they hear bad about our military and our country.

[ember]

No hon, you misunderstood. The Haditha marines are being cleared of all charges. It was a put up. Here: Click (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/16/haditha-watch-the-fate-of-lt-col-jeffrey-chessani/) and Murtha Lied; Marines Were Tried (And Acquitted) (http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5592C7D8-5C37-4C59-AC3C-F95CE4E3D179)
It's not your fault you haven't heard a lot about it, the mainstream isn't really reporting it.

I just meant, people shouldn't believe everything they hear bad about our military and our country.

Yes, I did misunderstand. Thanks for clearing that up.

And no....I've heard nothing of that!
Why haven't we heard more about it? :banghead:
Why does our media insist on portraying us in such a poor light?!!!

I'm glad they are being cleared and admit I don't know much about the Haditha incident but I truly believe that our soldiers are good souls, for the most part, and would not do heinous things to others without strong justification.

And I agree with you that people need to think for themselves and not listen to our anti- American media!

I truly believe that if people here in America think we're doing it all wrong, they should go live in those other countries and see for theirselves that America is not all that bad!
Freedom is soooo taken for granted!

[Karole28]

Yes, I did misunderstand. Thanks for clearing that up.

And no....I've heard nothing of that!
Why haven't we heard more about it? :banghead:
Why does our media insist on portraying us in such a poor light?!!!

I'm glad they are being cleared and admit I don't know much about the Haditha incident but I truly believe that our soldiers are good souls, for the most part, and would not do heinous things to others without strong justification.

And I agree with you that people need to think for themselves and not listen to our anti- American media!


I think the media puts us in a bad light to put the Democrats in a better one. If we're winning in Iraq, it means Bush was right and nobody wants that (but that's for another thread)

:blowkiss:

[believe09]

Here's an example of how bad this ruling is. When one Islamic goon was managed to get access to the U.S. courts his attorney filed some discovery motions that forced our government to turn over intelligence gathering information. Contained in that information was the fact that we had been monitoring bin Laden's cell phone. Guess what happened within days? You got it. Osama's cell phone went dead. We haven't picked up on his new one yet. Good work.


(Credit, Neal Boortz)

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what? perhaps I am naive when it comes to technology but surely if we were monitoring the man we could have picked him or his cell phone up....just sayin. Ya think it might have prevented some of the nonsense that just occurred in Afghanistan that is so egregious, Karzai has to threated Pakistan with military force? So hmmmmm

So if I am getting all of the follow up correctly the allegations of torture are some kind of concerted effort between the detainees and the liberal media to give the administration and our soldiers a black eye.

Got it.

[Karole28]

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what? perhaps I am naive when it comes to technology but surely if we were monitoring the man we could have picked him or his cell phone up....just sayin. Ya think it might have prevented some of the nonsense that just occurred in Afghanistan that is so egregious, Karzai has to threated Pakistan with military force? So hmmmmm

Perhaps you are. Perhaps our intell was waiting for a good time to do this, only they lost their chance.
I'm just sayin'

What does Karzai's insanity have to do with this? How much do you think we need to rule Afghanistan? You don't want us in Iraq (I'm assuming) but you think we should exert complete control over Afghanistan? Which is it? What do you want?

So if I am getting all of the follow up correctly the allegations of torture are some kind of concerted effort between the detainees and the liberal media to give the administration and our soldiers a black eye.

Got it.

No, I don't think you do.

[believe09]

No hon, you misunderstood. The Haditha marines are being cleared of all charges. It was a put up. Here: Click (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/16/haditha-watch-the-fate-of-lt-col-jeffrey-chessani/) and Murtha Lied; Marines Were Tried (And Acquitted) (http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=5592C7D8-5C37-4C59-AC3C-F95CE4E3D179)
It's not your fault you haven't heard a lot about it, the mainstream isn't really reporting it.

I just meant, people shouldn't believe everything they hear bad about our military and our country.

Now I disagree that the mainstream didn't report this, but well, this thread is not about Haditha, so I will refrain.

If the articles I submitted from various media sources were reporting about torture in Al Qaida prisons or detention centers, there would be a greater likelihood that people would be outraged on this board-I am intrigued that some of you feel that there is a spin to this story which includes you being sucked into a terrorist agenda if you acknowledge the possibility of it's accuracy. To a person, those who have objected dismissed the initial story which included intensive physical and psychological examinations of 11 random prisoners who were willing to participate. Naturally the physicians giving the examinations are not sufficiently bright enough to know that they were being used as pawns...of course they staked their reputations and released this report because they are incredibly stupid, right?

What did these physician gain by releasing their report and stating their outrage?

y'all got me head shakin here, but thank you for the opportunity to debate.

[Karole28]

Now I disagree that the mainstream didn't report this, but well, this thread is not about Haditha, so I will refrain.

If the articles I submitted from various media sources were reporting about torture in Al Qaida prisons or detention centers, there would be a greater likelihood that people would be outraged on this board-I am intrigued that some of you feel that there is a spin to this story which includes you being sucked into a terrorist agenda if you acknowledge the possibility of it's accuracy. To a person, those who have objected dismissed the initial story which included intensive physical and psychological examinations of 11 random prisoners who were willing to participate. Naturally the physicians giving the examinations are not sufficiently bright enough to know that they were being used as pawns...of course they staked their reputations and released this report because they are incredibly stupid, right?

What did these physician gain by releasing their report and stating their outrage?

y'all got me head shakin here, but thank you for the opportunity to debate.

Why would you suppose that we "feel that there is a spin to this story which includes us being sucked into a terrorist agenda if we acknowledge the possibility of it's accuracy"? You're making quite the supposition there that no one here has claimed.

How did releasing this harm the physician's reputations? It's not like the media (and Dems) aren't clamoring for this kind of news.

Which is exactly why you didn't hear about the Haditha marines being exonerated in the mainstream media.

[Rino]

Which is exactly why you didn't hear about the Haditha marines being exonerated in the mainstream media.
:slap:Already covered that, believe disagrees

[Karole28]

:slap:Already covered that, believe disagrees

Oh. Well, I felt it deserved more coverage. :) Perhaps the same amount that the original accusations against the marines got.

:slap:

[believe09]

Perhaps you are. Perhaps our intell was waiting for a good time to do this, only they lost their chance.
I'm just sayin'

What does Karzai's insanity have to do with this? How much do you think we need to rule Afghanistan? You don't want us in Iraq (I'm assuming) but you think we should exert complete control over Afghanistan? Which is it? What do you want?



No, I don't think you do.

Respectfully, I do get it. If this thread was not about torture, you and I could debate what Iraq has to do with Al Qaida and 9/11, but I am assuming that topic has been well covered. You do not know my feelings about Iraq and whether we should be there, so don't assume-we can discuss it on another thread.

As for your intel argument, my guess and your guess hold equal merit simply because you do not know either why BinLaden's cell phone would remain free to roam with whomever attached to it.

Why would there be hearings regarding what constitutes torture and whether the military had been given clear instructions regarding what constitutes torture if the torture was not being used? If there was not photographic evidence of such?

Here we have 11 men who claim they were subjected to such, and who were examined thoroughly by physicians who then released a report stating their allegations were true. You choose to dismiss it; I choose to be intrigued by it and appalled if this is what we have fallen to. Not because any of these guys were high level so and so's-they were released with out being charged whatsoever. One was kept for 5 years and released. These are not the bad dudes...maybe not even the junior bad dudes.

[Rino]

Oh. Well, I felt it deserved more coverage. :) Perhaps the same amount that the original accusations against the marines got.

:slap:
It'll never happen. I'm still waiting for Murtha and co. to set the record strait and apologize :silenced:

[Karole28]

It'll never happen. I'm still waiting for Murtha and co. to set the record strait and apologize :silenced:

Don't hold your breath!

[angelmom]

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what? perhaps I am naive when it comes to technology but surely if we were monitoring the man we could have picked him or his cell phone up....just sayin. Ya think it might have prevented some of the nonsense that just occurred in Afghanistan that is so egregious, Karzai has to threated Pakistan with military force? So hmmmmm

So if I am getting all of the follow up correctly the allegations of torture are some kind of concerted effort between the detainees and the liberal media to give the administration and our soldiers a black eye.

Got it.

What I'm asking is if you would suggest hanging the governor of a state for treason if a handful of prisoners in his jail claimed (without any physical proof) that they had been tortured. If one said he had been sodomized but refused a physical exam. If others said their sexual torture included a cavity search and being forced to strip. If a psychologist (their psychologist) said they must have been tortured because he has clear evidence that they are suffering from PTSD. And they have some burn marks and scarring consistent with electric shock. Oh, but we don't have any records of whether or not they came in with those marks - and BTW, they arrived via a hellhole KNOWN for torture and mass murder.

Would you paint the entire population of their jailers with the broad brush of "criminals" and "rapists" and "animals" and other such slurs on this weak evidence?

Or would you even consider the fact that some of these prisoners might not be the innocent little angels they would like us to believe, and that they might just be slanting the facts the tiniest little bit to make it sound better for the rest of the world? Have you ever raised a middle schooler?

But because some guy from the New Yorker says so, we are supposed to assume that not only is our entire military fighting force full of such scum, but our Commander in Chief knows about it, condones it, and indeed jokes about it among his staff. He loves it, because, you know, it's his whole plan of crashing 4 planes and killing 3,000 people come to fruition.

GMAFB.

[thefragile7393]

And this surprises people?:confused:

[Karole28]

Respectfully, I do get it. If this thread was not about torture, you and I could debate what Iraq has to do with Al Qaida and 9/11, but I am assuming that topic has been well covered.

In the PP (Iraq war thread) I just updated it today.


You do not know my feelings about Iraq and whether we should be there, so don't assume-we can discuss it on another thread.

Well, that's why I said "(I assume)"

As for your intel argument, my guess and your guess hold equal merit simply because you do not know either why BinLaden's cell phone would remain free to roam with whomever attached to it.

I'm assuming Bin Laden was, we have no reason to believe differently.

Why would there be hearings regarding what constitutes torture and whether the military had been given clear instructions regarding what constitutes torture if the torture was not being used? If there was not photographic evidence of such?

Because we aren't complete savages and want to ensure we follow the Geneva convention and our own laws. I would be willing to bet that the first time a combatant screamed maltreatment, investigations were launched.

Here we have 11 men who claim they were subjected to such, and who were examined thoroughly by physicians who then released a report stating their allegations were true.

Not so. Some of the men would not consent to be thoroughly examined.

You choose to dismiss it; I choose to be intrigued by it and appalled if this is what we have fallen to. Not because any of these guys were high level so and so's-they were released with out being charged whatsoever. One was kept for 5 years and released. These are not the bad dudes...maybe not even the junior bad dudes.


I choose to question it. Even if proven true, most of what I've seen alleged does not constitute "torture".

You don't know how bad they are, or aren't.

[believe09]

What I'm asking is if you would suggest hanging the governor of a state for treason if a handful of prisoners in his jail claimed (without any physical proof) that they had been tortured. If one said he had been sodomized but refused a physical exam. If others said their sexual torture included a cavity search and being forced to strip. If a psychologist (their psychologist) said they must have been tortured because he has clear evidence that they are suffering from PTSD. And they have some burn marks and scarring consistent with electric shock. Oh, but we don't have any records of whether or not they came in with those marks - and BTW, they arrived via a hellhole KNOWN for torture and mass murder.

Would you paint the entire population of their jailers with the broad brush of "criminals" and "rapists" and "animals" and other such slurs on this weak evidence?

Or would you even consider the fact that some of these prisoners might not be the innocent little angels they would like us to believe, and that they might just be slanting the facts the tiniest little bit to make it sound better for the rest of the world? Have you ever raised a middle schooler?

But because some guy from the New Yorker says so, we are supposed to assume that not only is our entire military fighting force full of such scum, but our Commander in Chief knows about it, condones it, and indeed jokes about it among his staff. He loves it, because, you know, it's his whole plan of crashing 4 planes and killing 3,000 people come to fruition.

GMAFB.

I am sorry-I don't get this at all...don't remember stating anyone should be painted with a broad brush etc, and that the prisoners were innocent and all the other rant here...

[believe09]

In the PP (Iraq war thread) I just updated it today.




Well, that's why I said "(I assume)"



I'm assuming Bin Laden was, we have no reason to believe differently.



Because we aren't complete savages and want to ensure we follow the Geneva convention and our own laws. I would be willing to bet that the first time a combatant screamed maltreatment, investigations were launched.



Not so. Some of the men would not consent to be thoroughly examined.




I choose to question it. Even if proven true, most of what I've seen alleged does not constitute "torture".

You don't know how bad they are, or aren't.

Ditto-that is the key here-we do not know how bad any of these dudes are except for the obvious ones.

Time may or may not tell if the US condoned torture during this war-we have seen pictures of Abu Ghraib, we have allegations made by certainly these 11 men and whomever else- we have had Congressional hearings to determine if torture is used by the military and civilian contractors in US run detention centers...I have not personally found the media to be particularly liberal leaning in the last 8 years, but if you choose to believe it is a witch hunt, so be it.

[angelmom]

I am sorry-I don't get this at all...don't remember stating anyone should be painted with a broad brush etc, and that the prisoners were innocent and all the other rant here...

Sorry, that last paragraph was not specifically directed at you. Some of the other posts on this thread have gotten me totally disgusted and POed. I need to back away from the computer.

[Trino]

I don't know if this has been posted, but it certainly doesn't paint Bush and Cheney in a good light.

http://www.twincities.com/ci_9616630

"...wasn't the product of U.S. military policy or the fault of a few rogue soldiers. It was largely the work of five White House, Pentagon and Justice Department lawyers who, following the orders of President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, reinterpreted or tossed out the U.S. and international laws that govern the treatment of prisoners in wartime, according to former U.S. defense and Bush administration officials."

[southcitymom]

......we are torturing detainees and what we gain/lose from doing that.


Of course we are. And it is heartbreaking and it is wrong. But it is how fearful people react. We have nothing to gain from it.

It will come home to roost - of this we can be certain.

[southcitymom]

Yeah-so? I mean really-we have been monitoring his phone waiting for what?

To see what he likes on his pizza, I think.

[southcitymom]

I am sorry-I don't get this at all...don't remember stating anyone should be painted with a broad brush etc, and that the prisoners were innocent and all the other rant here...

Thank God for the Surpreme Court.

[absinthe]

Of course the Gitmo detainees are/were tortured. That is the entire purpose of the Gitmo facility -- so that the US can bypass international laws.

While I have little concern about individuals who truly are terrorists, the major problem with Gitmo is that there is no trial and no proof that any of the detainees are terrorists or that they did ANYTHING wrong. According to the American justice system, if you are Arab you are a terrorist and subject to torture. It is despicable!

"Road to Guantanamo" is based on a true story of young British men who traveled to Afghanistan via Pakistan for a family wedding at the time of the US invasion of Afghanistan and ended up spending years as detainees at Gitmo. The farce was eventually revealed but not all made it home alive.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468094/


:clap::furious:

[absinthe]

THEY???? Not everyone beheaded Nick Berg.

OMG thank you thank you Trino!

[absinthe]

I don't really understand the outrage here - they are being treated better than an American would be if they were accused of a crime in their country? Or even if they were accused? The presumption of innocence does not exist in all countries.


And no, not everyone beheaded Nick Berg or Daniel Pearle or Paul Johnson but for the most part, they are worse than animals over there...they behead their own women for their desire to make free choices....so you'll have to excuse me if I don't think that that pushing them around a bit is a crime.


I will never, ever understand this logic, that because another society gives its people less rights than we give ours, this is reason to treat them in the same way. I thought our country is supposed to be above that.

[ember]

Or would you even consider the fact that some of these prisoners might not be the innocent little angels they would like us to believe, and that they might just be slanting the facts the tiniest little bit to make it sound better for the rest of the world? Have you ever raised a middle schooler?




I had to laugh at that part because I am raising a middle schooler and she's great but some of the others....wow, they're so vicious and conniving!



I will never, ever understand this logic, that because another society gives its people less rights than we give ours, this is reason to treat them in the same way. I thought our country is supposed to be above that.



Excuse me but we're not beheading anyone!
I said I don't think there's anything wrong with intimidation tactics as long as it's not true torture and I stand by that.
I just don't think that sitting down with these guys over tea and saying "pretty please" is going to get them to tell us what they need to tell us.

btw, one of our guys here just came back from a 18 month duty at Gitmo.
This guy is a real stand up, fair guy and would never do anything that was dishonorable. He told me stories of Gitmo that I am sure would change your mind. He said even he was pushed to his limits.

For instance, one of the prisoners of Middle Eastern descent screamed that he had been raped by a guard, screamed that he was violated and not fit to serve Allah because he was entered by a man. You know homosexuality is no no for them....anyway, when they reviewed the tape of him throughout the day, they saw that he was engaged in "waffling" with another prisoner. Waffling is when one backs up to the chain link fence and the other enters him through the other side of the fence. The fence leaves little waffle shaped marks on their botoms so hence the term waffling. This prisoner didn't know that cameras are always on and was trying to get his guards in trouble.

There is alot more too it but that's the quick version as I should not be telling you any of this at all......but I just can't stand the fact that so many people feel sorry for these little b*st*rds who are so deceptive and not worthy of the your loyalty to fight for their rights. Most, not all, but most are snakes that will turn on you and bite you in a heartbeat to serve their only purpose....ALLAH!

So if it makes me a bad person that I don't think anything is wrong with a little intimidation and scare tactics, then so be it.
If it saves one American life, it's worth it to me.


I will never be able to understand why so many are willing to believe the words of barbarious devils over the words of our own people! It's not always so black and white.