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Salem
07-10-2008, 11:53 PM
Does anyone still have the email for Portugese LE? I know we had it once, but I can't find it now ):

Salem

colomom
07-11-2008, 08:49 AM
From: http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/

The Attorney General of the Republic (PGR), Pinto Monteiro, has asked the magistrates of the Public Ministry to send him the final report of the Madeleine McCann case, the whole lot, within three weeks.

Pinto Monteiro aims to decide on the follow-up to the PJ's investigations after the inspectors have sent to the Public Ministry a report about the investigation work carried out since Madeleine's disappearance. A report more than d**ning in the facts, but in which the inspectors, voluntarily, have not wanted to draw conclusions or accusations, leaving to the magistrates the responsibility for deciding what follows.
According to a senior PJ office in the Algarve region, "the absence of conclusions or accusations in the report sent to the Public Ministry should be interpreted as the magistrates being given the responsibility and political power in this case."

"The PJ have not had the possibilty of conducting the investigation in a calm way....there was interferance and pressure, in particular from the British authorities and their representatives in Portugal," the same officer accused, stressing that in the United Kingdom, the police officers who had gone to Portugal, "admitted having been under the same pressure."

The Attorney General Pinto Monteiro has analysed dozens of pages of the PJ's report and is only waiting for the magistrates' decision: carry out more work, wait for more evidence or clues, knowing that the investigation cannot purely and simply be archived, contrary to what certain media have claimed.

"Now, the magistrates must have the courage to read, understand and analyse our report. It is up to them to decide on what follows and to find out if they have the courage to face the British." the senior PJ officer concluded.

Barnaby
07-11-2008, 09:01 AM
".......to find out if they have the courage to face the British........." Wow!

colomom
07-11-2008, 09:03 AM
Thanks to ISAR on Proboards (he rocks!)

PJ Criminal Department, Portimão

Rua Pé da Cruz, 2, 8500-640 Portimão
Phone number: +351-282 405 400
Permanence Service: +351-282 427 671
Fax number: +351-282 412 763
E-mail: dic.portimao@pj.pt

Salem
07-11-2008, 04:03 PM
".......to find out if they have the courage to face the British........." Wow!

Exactly what I thought Barnaby! WOW!

Salem

Salem
07-11-2008, 04:04 PM
Thanks to ISAR on Proboards (he rocks!)

PJ Criminal Department, Portimão

Rua Pé da Cruz, 2, 8500-640 Portimão
Phone number: +351-282 405 400
Permanence Service: +351-282 427 671
Fax number: +351-282 412 763
E-mail: dic.portimao@pj.pt

Oh Colomom! You ROCK! Thank you so much for this. I will update all, when and if, I have something to tell you!

Salem

PS - Please thank ISAR for me!

colomom
07-11-2008, 04:55 PM
Oh Colomom! You ROCK!
:blushing:


Thank you so much for this. I will update all, when and if, I have something to tell you!

Salem

PS - Please thank ISAR for me!

I will!!!

nicola
07-11-2008, 07:23 PM
Just a thought. Could it be possible for maddie to have woke in middle of night and wandered outside to find parents, (then maybe got lost/injured herself in some concealed location). No intruder, no parents involvemnt in disappearance. Its just idea not what I believed happened at all, does anyone think it could be possible? I heard maddies toy was placed high on shelf. Maybe she threw it & it got stuck and she wanted mam/dad to get it down so she goes looking?

Ciara
07-11-2008, 07:50 PM
you know what nicola.....anything is possible. Who really knows what happened. You have to wonder though if that were the case would they have not found her body by now unless it was some deep hole or something and they just missed it. I just wish we knew.

Texana
07-11-2008, 08:37 PM
Just a thought. Could it be possible for maddie to have woke in middle of night and wandered outside to find parents, (then maybe got lost/injured herself in some concealed location). No intruder, no parents involvemnt in disappearance. Its just idea not what I believed happened at all, does anyone think it could be possible? I heard maddies toy was placed high on shelf. Maybe she threw it & it got stuck and she wanted mam/dad to get it down so she goes looking?

I think it's entirely possible. It's more likely that she would have wandered off rather than been abducted, but that brings to question why Kate's first assumption was, "They've taken her."

Salem
07-12-2008, 01:28 AM
Just a thought. Could it be possible for maddie to have woke in middle of night and wandered outside to find parents, (then maybe got lost/injured herself in some concealed location). No intruder, no parents involvemnt in disappearance. Its just idea not what I believed happened at all, does anyone think it could be possible? I heard maddies toy was placed high on shelf. Maybe she threw it & it got stuck and she wanted mam/dad to get it down so she goes looking?


According to Gerry, cuddlecat was in Maddie's bed and according to Kate, several months later, cuddlecat was on a shelf. So..... difficult to base theories on cuddlecat.

That being said.... anything is possible. Maddie could have wandered away and someone found her, she could have fallen into an old well or something. I would think though, that there would have been noticable odors after a period of time if she was anywhere near where people gather.

Salem

Shazza
07-12-2008, 02:13 AM
Anything is possible.

The fact is no one here knows what happened to Madelaine, but there is someone out there that does, I believe in Karma, what goes around comes around.

How some people can sleep and carry on living a normal life when they know something very bad has happened to someone is well beyond my comprehension.

We are no closer to finding out the truth about Madelaine than the very first day she went missing.

Will we ever know the truth, sadly imo I don't think we will.

I think about Madelaine daily and it hurts to not know what happened to this beautiful little girl.

Sheromom
07-12-2008, 03:55 AM
Regardless of what happened to Madeleine, her parents are the ones that caused it. I tend to think she is dead and that they are responsible for her death- whether or not they murdered her themselves. Just like a drunk driver who kills someone is responsible for their death, so are the McCanns GUILTY!!! For the life of me, I cannot understand why they haven't been charged.:furious:

Barnaby
07-12-2008, 09:36 AM
According to Gerry, cuddlecat was in Maddie's bed and according to Kate, several months later, cuddlecat was on a shelf. So..... difficult to base theories on cuddlecat.

That being said.... anything is possible. Maddie could have wandered away and someone found her, she could have fallen into an old well or something. I would think though, that there would have been noticable odors after a period of time if she was anywhere near where people gather.

Salem

I agree Salem & it so baffles me why someone has not asked them directly & publicly why they both told different stories about Cuddle cat. I mean it was one or the other, cannot be both; on the bed or on the high shelf? so they need to tell us which it was & why one of them lied!
It was so surprising that the contradiction came so much later, was it bad memory on Kate's part or a subconscious need to tell the truth?
One would think that they would have gotten their stories straight at least! Not only are they nasty, they are stupid!
Which brings me again to the UK conspiracy theory, I wonder would these people really have had the brains to pull all of this off unassisted?

ceeaura
07-12-2008, 09:58 AM
Regardless of what happened to Madeleine, her parents are the ones that caused it. I tend to think she is dead and that they are responsible for her death- whether or not they murdered her themselves. Just like a drunk driver who kills someone is responsible for their death, so are the McCanns GUILTY!!! For the life of me, I cannot understand why they haven't been charged.:furious:


I so agree with you.

Tony Bennett
07-12-2008, 06:24 PM
Barnaby wrote: "I agree Salem & it so baffles me why someone has not asked them directly & publicly why they both told different stories about Cuddle Cat"

REPLY: Yes, Barnaby. Thousands of highly-paid journalists have written reams and reams about Madeleine's 'disappearance', and NOT ONE who has asked this question.

And there are many more similar basic ones that could and should be asked.

I believe it has been virtually admitted that the McCanns do not do interviews unless their PR and legal advisers tie the media down in advance as to what questions they are allowed to ask.

So much for investigative journalism! It has to be forum members and bloggers who ask these very basic questions - unbelievable. No wonder newspaper sales are slumping and Internet news-reading is sky-rocketing.

Whilst on the subject of Cuddle Cat, the way Kate McCann traipsed everywhere with Cuddle Cat, whenever the cameras were trained on her, was for me quite a telling example of how media-savvy this couple were from the outset. Kate was even seen getting Cuddle Cat out of her bag on occasions and placing it in her hands so that she could be sure that the cameras picked her up clutching 'Madeleine's favourite toy' while she was looking suitably 'distraught'.

Was it an act for the cameras?

Cuddle Cat, Cuddle Cat
Where have you been?
On a shelf, on a ledge,
In a bed I've been seen

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnaby
07-12-2008, 07:46 PM
Barnaby wrote: "I agree Salem & it so baffles me why someone has not asked them directly & publicly why they both told different stories about Cuddle Cat"

REPLY: Yes, Barnaby. Thousands of highly-paid journalists have written reams and reams about Madeleine's 'disappearance', and NOT ONE who has asked this question.

And there are many more similar basic ones that could and should be asked.

I believe it has been virtually admitted that the McCanns do not do interviews unless their PR and legal advisers tie the media down in advance as to what questions they are allowed to ask.

So much for investigative journalism! It has to be forum members and bloggers who ask these very basic questions - unbelievable. No wonder newspaper sales are slumping and Internet news-reading is sky-rocketing.

Whilst on the subject of Cuddle Cat, the way Kate McCann traipsed everywhere with Cuddle Cat, whenever the cameras were trained on her, was for me quite a telling example of how media-savvy this couple were from the outset. Kate was even seen getting Cuddle Cat out of her bag on occasions and placing it in her hands so that she could be sure that the cameras picked her up clutching 'Madeleine's favourite toy' while she was looking suitably 'distraught'.

Was it an act for the cameras?

Cuddle Cat, Cuddle Cat
Where have you been?
On a shelf, on a ledge,
In a bed I've been seen

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh I think it was definitely an act for the cameras Tony & on the subject of Cuddle cat, it has been reported to have been purchased at the airport for Madeleine's 4th birthday which was after she disappeared. It could hardly have been her treasured toy at that rate! However, Kate McCann claimed that there was cadaver odour on the toy because she had attended six cadavers in the weeks preceeding her holiday.
Again why has noone asked which is the truth & if it wasn't so serious it would be amusing to ask - Why the heck would a doctor go to such a sombre occasion as to certify a dead body carrying a child's cuddly toy? Slightly disrespectful imo. I am sure the grieving relatives were impressed!

I do believe that the McCanns do only allow certain questions at interviews but I wish someone would find a way of asking these & other pertinent questions or do journalists only have a pack mentality & no brains or initiative?

Salem
07-12-2008, 09:24 PM
Maybe we should send a list of questions to Oprah in preparation for their appearance on her show?

What do you think?

Salem

Barnaby
07-12-2008, 11:11 PM
Maybe we should send a list of questions to Oprah in preparation for their appearance on her show?

What do you think?

Salem

Yes all for it if I thought for one minute it would do any good. Do you think that Oprah would overstep the boundaries?

Salem
07-12-2008, 11:11 PM
You know, seriously, maybe we should send questions to Oprah. The "secrecy" will be lifted by then so the McCanns will be able to answer. Oprah could figure out how to phrase the questions in a "nonaccussory" manner......

Salem

Salem
07-12-2008, 11:13 PM
Hey Barnaby, we were posting at the same time. I don't know if Oprah will ask the hard questions. BUT no one else has. It may be that the McCanns will review the advance list and refuse to go on the show? It's worth a shot though, I think.

Salem

Salem
07-12-2008, 11:20 PM
1. Did you really leave your daughter and the twins alone again, after they let you know they had been crying for you the night before?
2. What exactly was the state of the windows and shutters when you returned to the apartment?
3. Was the door locked or unlocked?
4. Did Gerry enter the apartment and look down upon Maddie, or did he only listen at the door? Recent reports on the final police report indicate he did not actually enter the apartment.
5. Where exactly was cuddlecat? Was cuddlecat Maddie's favorite toy or was it planned as a birthday gift for Maddie's 4th birthday?
6. When David (or was it Matthew) stopped by the apartment that evening to "check on Kate" did he actually see Maddie?
7. Were you, or were you not, warned by MW staff that there had been a rash of burgarlies in the apartments and that you should not leave the children alone, as reported by MW staff?


What else guys?

Salem

Barnaby
07-13-2008, 08:55 AM
Hey Barnaby, we were posting at the same time. I don't know if Oprah will ask the hard questions. BUT no one else has. It may be that the McCanns will review the advance list and refuse to go on the show? It's worth a shot though, I think.

Salem


It's certainly worth a shot Salem. It will be interesting when the secrecy is lifted to see if any journalist has the courage to ask pertinent questions. If there truly is a government cover up they will be gagged of course!

A few more questions:

1. Kate, if you truly thought that Madeleine had been abducted why did you leave the twins unattended in an unlocked apartment to run back to the Tapas bar?
2. If Jane was next door as she said she was why not just call or run for her?
3. Did neither of you honestly have mobile phones or watches at dinner on May 3rd? If the answer is no then how come Gerry was texting & you were so sure of the times of checks etc?
4. Just who did check on the kids that evening?
5. How many kids were in 3a?
6. As a mother you really must know if Madeleine had a cut or a nose bleed in the apartment, did she?
7. How could you have done your make up, coordinated your clothes & jewellery & lounged by the pool when your daughter was maybe with paedophiles? Where did you find the energy to jog?
8. Why did you not go out & look for your child?
9. Regardless of what you were advised, how the heck did you hide your emotions? Did you cry at home & if so what is your secret for keeping your eyelids from swelling & being obvious the next day?
10. Were you not afraid of something happening the twins while you jetted away? If you really thought that you were being watched why did you not keep a better eye on your children & did you not worry after Madeleine disappeared that this might be personal & someone would come to snatch the twins?
11. If Cuddle Cat was not purchased at the airport & you really did carry it around when you were working, can you tell us why you did that? Would it not be unusual for a doctor to go to a sombre occasion carrying a cuddly toy?
12. Why would you not answer all of PJs questions in the interest of helping to find your daughter?
13. Why would you not participate in a reconstruction if only to prove to PJ that your story was the truth?
14. Why did you not avail of the lie detector test that a newspaper offered to pay for? Ok it may not have been admissable in court but you were anxious to put paid to rumours of your guilt, surely that would have helped? You did say that you would take one!
15. When you shouted "They've taken her" Who exactly did you think "they" were?


I have loads more but these will do for starters!

Texana
07-13-2008, 01:19 PM
All good questions, although the last one from Barnaby--"They've" taken her? Curious and curiouser, to say a "they" instead of Someone.

As for the Cuddle Cat questions, the McCanns and their spokesmen were very careful in making comments about that--and obviously, not answering questions.
It was never actually said that Kate took the cat with her to work, I believe, rather, just that Kate had been around 6 corpses in the previous weeks and the cadaver odor was on her clothes, belts, shoes, etc. So it was merely "transferred" to the toy.

Sound like a familiar line? Same as the DNA evidence and everything else. It's much easier to start throwing around words like "transfer" and confuse people.

I'm going to bet if these questions were ever allowed to be answered, the answers would be: "I don't recall, I can't say, I can't reveal that because of the investigation" and if pushed, "It's quite boring/useless/hurtful/harmful to Maddie to go over these things."

Well scripted answers to very troubling questions.

Salem
07-13-2008, 02:21 PM
I sent the Oprah show the following email:

"Rumor has it that the Oprah show is working towards having Gerry and Kate McCann on the show. First, I am wondering if this is true (last time the rumors were false) and if it is, what type of show will it be? Will Oprah interview the McCanns and ask them questions or will the McCanns have control over what is said?
Thank you for your consideration of this matter."

Let's see what they have to say. If Oprah is going to ask questions - I'll combine ours and condense it down and submit it - sound like a plan?

Salem

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-13-2008, 02:28 PM
My one and only question I would like answered is: "Why won't you voluntarily turn over your cell phone records to the police?"

If Madeleine was truly abducted as the McCanns insist, there could very well be a ransom call attempt made...even if it was a hang up, or private caller blocked number. For them to refuse to turn these records over to the police prove their guilt IMO. If they were truly innocent, and had nothing to hide, they would have turned the records over the day they became available from the cell phone provider.

colomom
07-13-2008, 03:18 PM
I think Oprah should do a show where audience members can ask questions!!! You can bet I would figure out a way to be there. I am afraid that if they are interviewed by Oprah it will be with a pre-approved list of questions and questions that absolutely cannot be asked. Funny thing though, this crime has barely been reported on in this country and I find it hard to believe that Oprah would be willing to pay big bucks and have her show hijacked by a couple and a crime that Americans know so little about. I don't think the ratings would be all that great, except for us, of course. If it is confirmed that they will be appearing I will write to Oprah and remind her of a certain author named James Frey and a book called a Million Little Pieces....

My question would be...."is it true that you had booked a babysitter for the evening of May 3rd that was cancelled shortly before the scheduled time of arrival, and if so, why was it cancelled?"

I am with you on this one Salem!

Texana
07-13-2008, 07:21 PM
I have two more questions:

How did the photographers know to be at the airport at the right time to get those post vacation photos?

Do they stake out the airport, and why do the McCanns go overseas to another foreign country for a vacation again?

I don't know that much about vacationing in Britain, I've only been there myself on a sort of combined business/little sightseeing trip. Are all the usual places to vacation there pretty crowded?

And as a side note: The TV series Joan of Arcadia was back on Sci Fi channel, it's rather complicated, but the secondary plot is the family recovering from the tragic accident that paralyzed their teenage son. The mother wants to take a vacation at Christmas to get the family's mind off the tragedy, etc, and the father suggests Canada, and she says "Canada! That's where people go when they can't afford a real vacation."

I think the story is set up North, as it didn't make much sense to me. I think it must be a regional joke, like Texans going down to resorts near the border back before all the drug war violence started.

Anyways, the words "real vacation" and "Canada" are now stuck in my mind.

Morag
07-13-2008, 07:21 PM
I seem to remember that Gayle and Oprah gave the cruise ship "widow", Jennifer Smith (hubby fell overboard on honeymoon), a real hard time when she appeared on the show. They were incredulous and it showed. Gayle is a former television newswoman and has some interview skills. Do they have the nerve to rake the poor parents over the coals? (Hope so).

colomom
07-13-2008, 07:49 PM
Hiya Tex,

The word is that Canada is in dire need of doctors, specifically in British Columbia and specifically cardiac doctors. I saw a reference to a "fast track" on the immigration process for those who fit the bill.

Perhaps this trip was to scope out the possibilities?

Did you notice how thin they looked in those pictures? Your question about the airport pictures is a good one. Perhaps a call was made to the local media or perhaps Jon Corner accompanied them like on the Huelva trip.

Where is Creepy Cat??

Barnaby
07-13-2008, 08:13 PM
I sent the Oprah show the following email:

"Rumor has it that the Oprah show is working towards having Gerry and Kate McCann on the show. First, I am wondering if this is true (last time the rumors were false) and if it is, what type of show will it be? Will Oprah interview the McCanns and ask them questions or will the McCanns have control over what is said?
Thank you for your consideration of this matter."

Let's see what they have to say. If Oprah is going to ask questions - I'll combine ours and condense it down and submit it - sound like a plan?

Salem

Great salem, keep us posted

scandi
07-13-2008, 08:19 PM
Hi Peeps,

I think it is a great idea to write to the Oprah show. There was an article on the 10th about windfall for the McCann's appearing on her show, so I went back to find a quote I remembered about $$'s and her show:

"Sky News, 28th January 2008

<snippet>

A spokeswoman for Harpo Productions, which produces the Oprah Winfrey show in the US, said: "While we've been in contact with the McCann family representatives, we are in no way involved in a bidding war.

"The Oprah Winfrey Show does not pay for news interviews."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-Ne ... 2851302507"


I doubt it is true they would get paid one red cent for doing her show, as why would they make one exception to their rule?

Like I told our dear Colomom earlier, it reeks of SPIN, and it immediately brought this song to mind:

'You Spin Me Round'
Dead or Alive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMwdAc1Dzfg

I'd love to hear the truth from Oprah and then have SKY News do a correction in their paper!

xox

Texana
07-13-2008, 09:04 PM
Hiya Tex,

The word is that Canada is in dire need of doctors, specifically in British Columbia and specifically cardiac doctors. I saw a reference to a "fast track" on the immigration process for those who fit the bill.

Perhaps this trip was to scope out the possibilities?

Did you notice how thin they looked in those pictures? Your question about the airport pictures is a good one. Perhaps a call was made to the local media or perhaps Jon Corner accompanied them like on the Huelva trip.

Where is Creepy Cat??

All good questions. Celebrities fly in and out of airports every day, all it would take for the McCanns to go unnoticed is to take separate seats with one child each, wear baseball caps and sunglasses, and they'd look like any other family.

I wanted to comment,too, on how thin Kate looks, and Gerry has obviously lost weight as well.

Interesting note about Canada needing cardiac doctors...I wouldn't be surprised at all if they left Great Britain now.

Creepy Cat was never seen again after supposedly the "cadaver odor." I guess once that was pointed out, Madeleine's favorite toy lost all its appeal.

thefragile7393
07-14-2008, 07:49 PM
Hi Peeps,

I think it is a great idea to write to the Oprah show. There was an article on the 10th about windfall for the McCann's appearing on her show, so I went back to find a quote I remembered about $$'s and her show:

"Sky News, 28th January 2008

<snippet>

A spokeswoman for Harpo Productions, which produces the Oprah Winfrey show in the US, said: "While we've been in contact with the McCann family representatives, we are in no way involved in a bidding war.

"The Oprah Winfrey Show does not pay for news interviews."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-Ne ... 2851302507"


I doubt it is true they would get paid one red cent for doing her show, as why would they make one exception to their rule?

Publicity! ANd quite probably, good positive sympathetic publicity! I believe it is true that Oprah dosn't pay for ones to come on the show, although she provides lodging and transportation. I have nothing to back that up, just memories on reading some time in the past how more respectable talk shows run.

Salem
07-14-2008, 09:41 PM
Okay - no word from the Oprah VIP's yet. Maybe tomorrow.

Salem

colomom
07-15-2008, 08:05 AM
From Pear on 3A's (http://www.the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18177)

I came across this post in the blog of the ASFICPJ, the union of the PJ:

http://asficpj.blogspot.com/2008/07/conversa-entre-polcias.html

Glorified google translation

Thursday, July 3, 2008

CONVERSATION AMONG POLICEMEN

When, in late 1983 (some 25 years ago) I and some colleagues, completed the training course in the School, we were placed in Training Group, then SCITE / CICD, at the end of the street Conde de Redondo , We found there a group of police investigators whose characteristics, individual and in group, and the way they worked, led us (at least most of us) to want to be there placed permanently .

Indeed, the motivation and dedication to service, the enthusiasm and joy with which they played their roles, the competence and professionalism that they demonstrated were for us, new trainees of the School of Barro, the assurance that the occupation we were beginning would translate in an activity full of achievement and a great career and a bright future.

Many of those colleagues of ours were about our age, little older than us, from the course that immediately preceded ours and thus with their training recently completed .

Among them was the Gon&#231;alo Amaral. Perhaps with more hair than now, and possibly a little less heavy. For the rest, he was the same. Already at that time he surprised us with his commitment to the profession, which showed the competence, the assurance with which he worked, the courage with which he would go anywhere and face all sorts of situations and opponents. Similarly, it was striking the good grace with which he faced setbacks and adversities of the function, and the tolerance with which he accepted the jokes, sometimes irreverent, of some colleague (and I can say it, because my conscience accuses me of having been the one, quite a few times).

Later Gon&#231;alo would work in Faro and in Ponta Delgada. Always with the personal availability and professional capability that are his characteristics. And in all the many aspects that are today's work of an investigator of the Judiciary Police. Investigating murders or gathering information on organized criminal networks. Analyzing documentation on complex financial movements or capturing dangerous individuals. Without evading difficulties nor losing courage when facing setbacks. Being frontal and going to fight. Always.

Again in Lisbon and in the fight to drug trafficking, Gon&#231;alo was indicated, even as an agent, to head a Investigation Brigade in the DCITE. Those that were then in that department, will recall that the results achieved by the Brigade, under the charismatic leadership of Gon&#231;alo Amaral, soon exceeded the average statistics. The figures obtained by him and his men, either on the numbers of arrests, either on the amount of narcotic or goods and assets seized, or even on the convictions achieved in Court marked a time in the DCITE and set an example.

I know. I remember well. It was there.
He accumulated the leadership of the Brigade with the condition of university student. And his characteristic style of leadership, taking consistent and full responsibility, ever present and available, did not prevent him to obtain a law license, in the shortest possible time allowed. Despite his previous training in Engineering.

We found ourselves in the course of promotion to Subinspector. Again Gon&#231;alo demonstrated his remarkable work capacity because he did this course, intensive and demanding, in combination with the leadership of the Brigade of Investigation. Patent was, also, once again, his significant ability to study and he concluded the course in the first place among 99 colleagues.
Later, as a logical and natural sequence of his professional career and his life, he would compete for Coordinator of Criminal Investigation and, as expected, be promoted to that category shortly afterwards.

Then...
Well, about a year ago, we watched, amazed, a kind of show hitherto unheard among us. As in the autosdafe of the past, some media (mainly British, but unfortunately not only) "destroyed" in public a man of the Portuguese Judiciary Police. A top cadre of the career of Criminal Investigation. Our colleague, and friend of many of us. A m&#181;character assassination like no other employee of this house had been victim before. Why?
Because, as has always been his hallmark, Dr. Goncalo Amaral, Coordinator of Criminal Investigation of the Judiciary Police, went to fight, committed himself, faced, with courage and decision, the difficulties and setbacks of an extremely complex case whose and contours are still, and perhaps forever, undefined .

Perhaps for the first time in the history of Judiciary Police, an investigator is exposed in the public square and its privacy assaulted. Only because he was investigating a suspected case. Because he was working. Perhaps the Portuguese state, the government, our Judiciary Police should have mechanisms to protect their representatives in situations like this. To protect them in the exercise of their professional activity in the Public Service. Perhaps all of us, his co-workers, should have taken it up to us, and doing justice to the famous, traditional and so bandied about "Esprit de Corps" that they say is characteristic of our "House", we ought to have, in some way, expressed our support to Dr . Gon&#231;alo Amaral.

Nothing of this has happened. Gon&#231;alo was left alone.
If this strategy catches in the future, facing powerful and well connected defendants, may be other investigators will be object of this ordeal. It could be any of us. And that could be, somehow, the end of the criminal investigation. At least the way we envision it and develop it.

May this case serve as a subject of reflection. And as an example. And may it help us create ways to avoid a repetition. The very ASFICPJ should, perhaps, analyze, seriously, conscientiously and thoroughly, in a serene and constructive way, this whole situation. It is also their obligation.

Gon&#231;alo, my friend, I regret sincerely your exit of the Judiciary Police, which seems to me too early because I admit that you could give more to the cause of the Society, Justice and Public Service. Our "House", moreover, does not have many resources, in quality and quantity, to afford to not put them to profit or, even worse, to leave them to waste.

It remains for me, faced with the facts, to thank you for your friendship and wish you all the best and every success in the new stage of life thatn you decided to start.

Lisbon, 03 July 2008,

Joao Fernandes Figueira
Member of A.S.F.I.C. / P.J. No. 711
Published by ASFIC at 09:36
8 comments:

Anonymous said ...

After all there are still some guys with balls ...
Yes sir.
July 3, 2008 9:45
Anonymous said ...

Esteemed comrade


I fully subscribe...
We are not so many that we can afford to waste resources.
July 3, 2008 19:18
Anonymous said ...

Get used to it
July 3, 2008 22:42
Anonymous said ...

Give him the war cross [the victoria cross] and, why not, a little car to help him and a petrol card. Such a good man, that even payed to work
July 3, 2008 22:43
Anonymous said ...

I wish him good fortune and succes in his "new" life, outside of this institution that he served for so many years ... Hoping to have the opportunity to meet him again one day

Thanks Joao Fernandes Figueira for the tribute to my colleague and friend Gon&#231;alo Amaral.

G.B.
July 4, 2008 11:11 a.m.
Anonymous said ...

I agree, approve and praise GA, that was always a Policeman with "P". Now, that part of the "esprit de corps," I vaguely remember that twenty years ago, when I entered the "house", I think it still existed ...
July 4, 2008 17:37
Anonymous said ...

Comrades

After seeing the interview and analyse it, synthetise it and correlate it, subjective and objective factors suggest that...… all of us, yes all of us, deserve more than what what was given to Gon&#231;alo. I know that when my time will come, I will not get even a pat on the shoulder, but I do not expect anything else. Ungrateful HOUSE that treats us this way...
July 4, 2008 22:09
Anonymous said ...

ladies and gentlemen
let me advise you. Don't do things waiting for someone to thank you, do them only for the enjoyment they give you. If recognition is won, fine, otherwise the enjoyment is already sufficient
July 4, 2008 22:50

shoregirl
07-15-2008, 08:12 PM
Publicity! ANd quite probably, good positive sympathetic publicity! I believe it is true that Oprah dosn't pay for ones to come on the show, although she provides lodging and transportation. I have nothing to back that up, just memories on reading some time in the past how more respectable talk shows run.


Remember the Rita Cosby/Anna Nicole-Smith debacle? They may not pay for guests but it seems to be a common practice that they can get around that in other ways. My question would be "Why did you leave the twins in the same apartment Madeliene was supposedly "abducted" from to go and alert Gerry? You had a cell phone right? There was a phone in the room right?

Salem
07-15-2008, 10:10 PM
Still no word from the Oprah crew. I'll send another email tomorrow.

Salem

april4sky
07-16-2008, 01:28 AM
A small price for the press to pay for irresponsible behaviour

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/15/law.pressandpublishing

Robert Murat's libel settlement is hardly a surprise. Newspapers did overstep the mark in their reporting and, given the award to the McCanns in March, the outcome was entirely predictable.
The reason for the capitulation of 11 newspapers before the case reached court are very clear.

The facts of the matter are unarguable. Murat was libelled. Not once, but many times over. Scores of reports, and many headlines too, defamed him. Like Kate and Gerry McCann, he was often treated not as a suspect by papers but as a culprit.

Many of the stories, culled from anonymous sources (and, quite possibly, no sources at all) were utterly irresponsible and, most certainly, unprovable.

Papers were also competing against 24-hour news on TV and radio. Therefore they felt under pressure to get new angles on a story which has only ever had a couple of facts: a child vanished; the police named one man as a suspect – on the thinnest of evidence; the police later named the McCanns as suspects.
Everything else was speculation.

Tony Bennett
07-16-2008, 03:27 AM
The successful libel claim by Robert Murat makes this some kind of record, surely - $1 million for the McCanns in libel damages, and now a further $1.1 million for Robert Murat.

A total of $2.1 million paid out to the only three suspects in the probable accidental or negligently-caused death of Madeleine McCann.

There's surely never been anything quite like it.

But Robert Murat being in the news reminds us of one of the most significant comments made in the case.

Just after Robert Murat was first identified by the British press as a possible suspect, Gerry McCann was asked on camera if he knew Murat.

Clerlay irritated by the question, Gerry turned away from his questioner and answered:

"I'm not going to comment on that".

Which tells us all that he did know Murat - but is embarrassed about the connection

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

april4sky
07-16-2008, 07:31 AM
The successful libel claim by Robert Murat makes this some kind of record, surely - $1 million for the McCanns in libel damages, and now a further $1.1 million for Robert Murat.

A total of $2.1 million paid out to the only three suspects in the probable accidental or negligently-caused death of Madeleine McCann.

There's surely never been anything quite like it.

But Robert Murat being in the news reminds us of one of the most significant comments made in the case.

Just after Robert Murat was first identified by the British press as a possible suspect, Gerry McCann was asked on camera if he knew Murat.

Clerlay irritated by the question, Gerry turned away from his questioner and answered:

"I'm not going to comment on that".

Which tells us all that he did know Murat - but is embarrassed about the connection

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------It tells us these are two very big assumptions.:waitasec: IMO

Barnaby
07-16-2008, 09:29 AM
The successful libel claim by Robert Murat makes this some kind of record, surely - $1 million for the McCanns in libel damages, and now a further $1.1 million for Robert Murat.

A total of $2.1 million paid out to the only three suspects in the probable accidental or negligently-caused death of Madeleine McCann.

There's surely never been anything quite like it.

But Robert Murat being in the news reminds us of one of the most significant comments made in the case.

Just after Robert Murat was first identified by the British press as a possible suspect, Gerry McCann was asked on camera if he knew Murat.

Clerlay irritated by the question, Gerry turned away from his questioner and answered:

"I'm not going to comment on that".

Which tells us all that he did know Murat - but is embarrassed about the connection

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely Tony, if he did not know him why not just say NO!

Texana
07-16-2008, 01:34 PM
I don't understand the irritation, I can understand the "no comment" but the question is a reasonable one.

colomom
07-16-2008, 03:16 PM
New Thread for BREAKING NEWS regarding the "decision" to be announced on Monday July 21.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67478

colomom
07-17-2008, 08:47 AM
Robert Murat's statement after court

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Robert-Murat-Settles-Libel-Action-Against-British-Newspapers-Over-Madeleine-McCann-Case/Video/200807315041824?lpos=video_1&lid=VIDEO_15041824_Robert&#37;2BMurat%2BSettles%2BLibe l%2BAction%2BAgainst%2BBritish%2BNewspapers%2BOver %2BMadeleine%2BMcCann%2BCase

BBC interview

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7511919.stm

Luanne
07-18-2008, 03:22 AM
Hiya Tex,

The word is that Canada is in dire need of doctors, specifically in British Columbia and specifically cardiac doctors. I saw a reference to a "fast track" on the immigration process for those who fit the bill.

Perhaps this trip was to scope out the possibilities?

Did you notice how thin they looked in those pictures? Your question about the airport pictures is a good one. Perhaps a call was made to the local media or perhaps Jon Corner accompanied them like on the Huelva trip.

Where is Creepy Cat??

Canada, and my province of B.C. is definitely in need of doctors. Many doctors here aren't accepting new patients, hence many people do not have doctors.....but back to the original subject, I haven't read the whole thread, were they in Canada recently checking things out? It would be interesting to have them here. My hometown has one of the top cardiac care hospitals in the country. And it's called Royal Jubilee Hospital, wouldn't that be the obvious choice for them? ;o)

colomom
07-19-2008, 06:07 PM
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/07/english-ignored-complaint-for.html

English Ignored Complaint for Paedophilia Against One of the McCanns Friends
Statements: Doctors Friends of the McCanns talked with the British Police

David Payne, one of the friends of the McCann who were vacationing in the Algarve on the 3rd of May last year, when Madeleine disappeared, was suspected for paedophile behaviour.

Barnaby
07-19-2008, 06:16 PM
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/07/english-ignored-complaint-for.html

English Ignored Complaint for Paedophilia Against One of the McCanns Friends
Statements: Doctors Friends of the McCanns talked with the British Police

David Payne, one of the friends of the McCann who were vacationing in the Algarve on the 3rd of May last year, when Madeleine disappeared, was suspected for paedophile behaviour.

OMG! I heard this before but never said anything publicly in case it was wrong! I didn't think it was Payne though. That article insinuates that Gerry was also involved. I feel sick to my stomach but not at all surprised! B******s!!!

colomom
07-19-2008, 06:36 PM
Depositions – Doctor friends of the McCanns spoke to the English police

Payne suspected of paedophilia

Twelve days after Maddie disappeared, a couple revealed the strange behaviour of one of the group’s members. Testimonies only reached the Judiciária in January this year

David Payne, one of the McCanns’ friends that were on holidays in the Algarve on the 3rd of May last year, when Madeleine disappeared, was suspected of paedophile behaviours.

The accusations were brought by a couple of friends that spent their holidays with part of the group in the summer of 2005 – themselves also English doctors. Twelve days after the British girl disappeared, Katherina and Arul could no longer keep the secret that had bothered them for two years and went to the police to make a statement. They revealed two conversations between Dave and Gerry, during which both revealed suspicious behaviour and indiciated sex with minors.

According to what CM was able to establish, the depositions were given on the 16th of May. But they only entered the process in January 2008 and are included in the 13th volume of the process files. At that point in time, Kate and Gerry were already arguidos, the rogatory letters had already been issued and the English, including Dave, showed their reluctance in returning to Portugal.

Touching the nipple

Katherina made a statement that was eight pages long. She reported holidays in Mallorca with several English [people], including the McCanns and the Paynes. Two incidents left her with serious doubts about the friends’ behaviour and lead her to create suspicions that were never confirmed.

The first one happened on a night when Gerry and Dave were talking about Maddie. Katherina does not know what they were saying but she remembers that Dave sucked on his fingers, pushing them into the mouth and pulling them out again, while his other hand traced a circle around the nipple, with a circular movement over the clothes. “That was done in a provocative manner”, recalls Katherina, who says that it stuck to her memory.

Days later, the scene repeated itself. The doctor saw Dave making the same gestures again, while he talked about his own daughter. Scared, Katherina said nothing about the incident. But she took special caution, asking her husband never to let the doctor come close to the bathroom when her daughter was having a bath.

Arul went to the police to tell the same story. Katherina’s companion confirmed the gestures that were made by Dave during the conversation with Gerry but asserted that he wasn’t aware that they were talking about Maddie. He did find the behaviour in extremely bad taste, but didn’t see it being repeated.

The incident ended up forgotten in his memory and it was only the disappearance of Madeleine, who had also been with them on the Mallorca vacation, that revived it.

During the deposition, Katherina went even further and said she had associated the gestures to someone who likes to watch child pornography. “I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a different manner”, she concluded.

Friends from school days

Arul and Kate were friends from their school days. They have known each other for approximately 20 years and that was the motive that led the couple to accompany the McCanns on their holidays to Mallorca. Arul and Katherina did not know Fiona and Dave and they only met again once, during a dinner that gathered several couples. When Maddie disappeared from the Ocean Club, Katherina remembered the incident in Mallorca. And she immediately tried to verify whether Dave had again been accompanying the McCann couple, as the suspicions about his behaviour still stood. In the deposition that was made to the English police, Katherina says she decided to give a statement when she saw the tv images. Dave was among the same holiday group.

Doubts in the case

Irishman not heard – An Irishman who was spending holidays in Praia da Luz also went to the English police to report that on the night of the 3rd of May he saw Gerry carrying Madeleine towards the beach. He was never heard through a rogatory letter.

Sending delayed – The difference between the date when the deposition was obtained and the time when it was sent is not explained in the process.CM knows that the English authorities did not provide an explanation, either.

Bank account info – The PJ tried to know the bank account situation of every element of the group, in order to search for possible motives for the crime. But the English answers were laconic and did not help the investigation.

Life stories – The life stories of Gerry and Kate McCann remain unknown. The PJ tried to verify whether Maddie’s mother suffered from depression but never received her clinical records, because the judge did not allow it.

source: Correio da Manhã 19.07.2008, paper edition

Copied from: http://www.helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1204&page=13 #180

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OMG....

colomom
07-19-2008, 06:55 PM
Suspicions – Dave’s involvement is considered again

Parents refused technical help

Works with endangered children and approached the McCanns in the Algarve. Found the behaviour strange

Yvone, who earned credentials from the English government to work in situations that involve endangered children, was in the Algarve when Maddie disappeared but the McCanns refused her help. The specialist told the PJ, during two depositions that were made one month apart from each other, that she approached the couple after the first few hours and that the behaviour from both left her with suspicions about their involvement in the disappearance.

The behaviour of David Payne, who was accused by a couple of doctors that spent holidays with him in 2005, of having attitudes that indiciated paedophile practices, also left Yvone intrigued. The McCanns’ friend had called them aside and advised them not to speak to the technician.

Yvone found another detail strange. David’s face was not unfamiliar to her, and the technician believes he might have been inquired before, within some case of sexual abuse. She tried to remember when but failed to locate moment and the circumstances under which she had met him.

The days went by and Yvone continued to think about the issue. She then sent a letter to the English police, where she pointed out the details that she had perceived. Namely, that the bedroom window had not been forced open, that it was not normal for a couple of doctors to leave their children alone and that Kate had reacted in an aggressive manner when she had approached her. She also alerted to the official statistics, that point towards the majority of these cases to involve a cover-up from the families.

source: Correio da Manh&#227; 19.07.2008, paper edition

Copied from: http://www.helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1204&page=17 #242

Salem
07-19-2008, 07:22 PM
The article also says this Yvone person contacted the British LE to see if Payne was a registered sex offender, but got no reply.

Does England have a public website like we have for Megan's Law? Anyone know how to look sex offenders up over there? I found a site once from Interpol I thought and looked at all the sex offenders there, but couldn't come up with anything. I certainly did not see anything about Payne, but there were only about 6 offenders listed for all of Europe. I think I came to the conclusion that it was not an official website and then gave up.

Salem

Salem
07-19-2008, 07:30 PM
Thinking more about this --- I think it is really ballsy that English LE went to Portugal and asked that some information not be released. After the beating PLE has taken over this, why in heaven's name, would they want to suppress anything that shows they were on the right track?

How dumb is the "big guy" in England that doesn't want things revealed?

I think we the public have waited long enough to hear the truth. AND now that secrecy has been lifted, it will be interesting to see what spin the McCanns put on things. They can no longer hide behind the secrecy veil when they are asked the tough questions!

Salem

PS - no word back from the Oprah crew. I'll try to remember to send another email on Monday. I'm thinking Oprah is waiting also for the big "solution."

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-19-2008, 08:54 PM
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/07/english-ignored-complaint-for.html

English Ignored Complaint for Paedophilia Against One of the McCanns Friends
Statements: Doctors Friends of the McCanns talked with the British Police

David Payne, one of the friends of the McCann who were vacationing in the Algarve on the 3rd of May last year, when Madeleine disappeared, was suspected for paedophile behaviour.

I literally feel sick to my stomach.

This would certianly explain the McCanns obsession with paedophiles, and their lack of concern to WHAT they might be doing to their daughter...(as they jet set across the country and visit the Pope).


:puke:

Barnaby
07-19-2008, 10:00 PM
I literally feel sick to my stomach.

This would certianly explain the McCanns obsession with paedophiles, and their lack of concern to WHAT they might be doing to their daughter...(as they jet set across the country and visit the Pope).


:puke:

Those people are hypocrisy personified!

& to think that we all thought that the Paynes were the decent ones who had perhaps broken ranks & told the truth! They are all in it up to their necks!

april4sky
07-19-2008, 11:22 PM
Copied from: http://www.helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1204&page=13 #180

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OMG....
OMG Indeed!!!!

Same ole, same ole. Nothing but rumours and smears!! So no surprise there then.

In fact nothing more than a look into a normal day in the life of a hate site. IMO.

Texana
07-20-2008, 12:04 AM
OMG Indeed!!!!

Same ole, same ole. Nothing but rumours and smears!! So no surprise there then.

In fact nothing more than a look into a normal day in the life of a hate site. IMO.

I couldn't access the hate site and the smears and rumors, it was password protected. How did you do it?

april4sky
07-20-2008, 03:37 AM
I couldn't access the hate site and the smears and rumors, it was password protected. How did you do it?
I didn't. And wouldn't.
Unfortunately their rumours and smears get repeated here.

Salem
07-20-2008, 03:41 AM
Does England have a sex offender register that can be viewed by the public?

Thanks in advance,

Salem

april4sky
07-20-2008, 04:49 AM
FBI Agent Analyzes McCann Case

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=4766445&page=1

Video interview....

"20/20" co-anchor Elizabeth Vargas recently spoke with former FBI Special Agent and profiler Brad Garrett, an ABC News consultant, who discussed the details surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

******
This is an American profiler with the skills to make a fair and balanced judgement on Madeleines case. IMO

daffodil
07-20-2008, 06:57 AM
Does England have a sex offender register that can be viewed by the public?

Thanks in advance,

Salem


No we dont unfortunately.

Barnaby
07-20-2008, 08:44 AM
Does England have a sex offender register that can be viewed by the public?

Thanks in advance,

Salem

It's about time we did, Salem! Something has to be done to stop these vile monsters but then the Uk govt. gives top drawer protection to suspected murderers and maybe even paedophiles so what do they care?

Ashamed to be British right now!

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-20-2008, 10:54 AM
OMG Indeed!!!!

Same ole, same ole. Nothing but rumours and smears!! So no surprise there then.

In fact nothing more than a look into a normal day in the life of a hate site. IMO.

What hate site are you talking about?

Also, just out of curiosity, with all the HUGE payouts from the media to the McCanns, and then Murat for libel charges, why do you think the Correio da Manh&#227; editors and staff would jeopardise everything to print rumors and smears? For fun? Can't be for money, for if this is untrue, not only according to Portuguese law will they spend several years in prison for liable, they will also lose everything they own.

You really think people are that hell bent on smearing the McCanns and friends? Innocent, loving, grief sticken parents who made an itsy bitsy tiny little mistake by not checking their children often enough. :waitasec: Of course you do.

april4sky
07-20-2008, 11:17 AM
What hate site are you talking about?

Also, just out of curiosity, with all the HUGE payouts from the media to the McCanns, and then Murat for libel charges, why do you think the Correio da Manhã editors and staff would jeopardise everything to print rumors and smears? For fun? Can't be for money, for if this is untrue, not only according to Portuguese law will they spend several years in prison for liable, they will also lose everything they own.

You really think people are that hell bent on smearing the McCanns and friends? Innocent, loving, grief sticken parents who made an itsy bitsy tiny little mistake by not checking their children often enough. :waitasec: Of course you do.It was very clear what hate site I was talking about.:)
And I have answered your questions before IW. :waitasec: You chose not to answer mine however.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-20-2008, 11:32 AM
It was very clear what hate site I was talking about.:)
And I have answered your questions before IW. :waitasec: You chose not to answer mine however.

I'm sorry April, but I don't know what questions you keep talking about. I have reread your posts (every single post available on WS, and I must say I am shocked) and don't see where I have ignored anything you have said. Also, maybe it's my age, or my thickness, but I don't have any idea what hate site you are talking about? I don't know of any forum that isn't slanted to disapproval of the McCanns. A pro-McCann forum would be very boring and quite. I can see it now. The OP write: "The McCanns are wonderful parents" and then 50 pages of posts that say "I agree", "good post",and "spot on"...LOL

Claycat
07-20-2008, 11:47 AM
FBI Agent Analyzes McCann Case

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=4766445&page=1

Video interview....

"20/20" co-anchor Elizabeth Vargas recently spoke with former FBI Special Agent and profiler Brad Garrett, an ABC News consultant, who discussed the details surrounding the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

******
This is an American profiler with the skills to make a fair and balanced judgement on Madeleines case. IMO

Thanks for that link! I enjoyed seeing the video. It was very fair and objective and looked at all possibilities.

april4sky
07-20-2008, 11:47 AM
I'm sorry April, but I don't know what questions you keep talking about. I have reread your posts (every single post available on WS, and I must say I am shocked) and don't see where I have ignored anything you have said.
Post 110. I might believe them thread regarding my question.

Post 72. Why did Madeleine go missing thread. I believe there was a promise here regarding a question. :waitasec:

april4sky
07-20-2008, 11:49 AM
Thanks for that link! I enjoyed seeing the video. It was very fair and objective and looked at all possibilities.
Your very welcome Claycat. :blowkiss:

colomom
07-20-2008, 02:54 PM
Traces – Finding the trail of a death changed the direction of the investigation

English defended the use of the dogs

An exhaustive report explains the possible scenarios to hide a body and defends the animals’ reliability

Mark Harrison, the English police who was designated to help the Pol&#237;cia Judici&#225;ria in the search for Madeleine McCann, wrote a report last summer, in which he defended the usage of the dogs that are experts in the detection of cadaver odours and blood traces. The discovery of the residues and the signaling of the trail of a cadaver thus ended up formally changing the direction of an investigation that had been limited to the theory of abduction until then.

The report, which praises the Portuguese authorities’ work, suggested that the animals should be taken to all the locations where the body might have been hidden. From the apartment that had been rented by the McCanns up to the cr&#232;che, through the beach and the church area.

Mark Harrison explained that it was necessary to analyse the scenarios of Madeleine having been killed that night and her body abandoned by a person on foot or by car. The expert added that despite of the high costs of that search, it should be carried out in order to clarify the case.

Dogs are reliable

In the report, Mark Harrison says that it us very unlikely that the body was buried in the sand. The English policeman defends that a launch into the sea is the most likely scenario, while the body should also be searched for within an area of cliffs and dense bushes that lies east of Praia da Luz.

The two English dogs were presented as an indispensable help to the investigation, after their abilities and the manner in which they are trained were explained in detail, as well as the fact that they both react to blood traces and cadaver odours, without a single episode of “false positives” in the investigations.

In his report, Mark Harrison listed cases of success that offered a guarantee of reliability. And he asserted that if the dogs came to signal Maddie’s death, then it would be a fact.

Details

High costs - Mark Harrison stressed the high costs of the dogs. Their daily rate amounted to one thousand euros; the cost of the trip for them and their handlers was of 2750. There was also the cost of the passport for the animals (450 euros), adding to the lodging, the food and the transportation of the vehicles that were necessary for the animals.

False positives – Eddie, the dog that specialized in cadaver odour detection, has never given a false alert. He has participated in approximately 200 searches in homicide scenarios in Great Britain and never signaled any products that derived from meat or any other food item.

Human blood – Keela was trained exclusively with human blood; blood that is subject to strict testing and which comes from hospitals. She locates contaminated guns, smells vehicles and clothing items, and accurately detects residues, even if the locations are subject to cleaning.

……………….

Kate refused to answer the PJ

Kate refused to answer tens of questions from the Pol&#237;cia Judici&#225;ria. After the first day of questioning, when she appeared in the company of her lawyer but was heard as a witness, Kate changed her stance. Being made an arguida and the fact that the authorities assumed that they admitted her involvement in the disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, led her to adopt a different attitude.

She refused to reply, for example, why she left the twins behind in the bedroom in order to call her husband and friends at the restaurant, after finding out that Maddie had disappeared.

She also failed to explain why she had not searched for her daughter in the first moments, sitting on the bed almost without moving, and she offered no explanation for the fact that the preliminary test results from the English lab detected traces in the car boot and behind the sofa, traces whose DNA resembled Maddie’s.

Other details from her personal and professional life remained unanswered. Kate refused, for example, to explain whether or not it was true that before the holidays she had admitted she had a bad premonition. Whether or not she had ever complained that the twins were very restless or had ever admitted to deliver the guard of Maddie to a relative.

Kate also remained expressionless when she was confronted with the possibility that she had quit working because she could not handle the pressure of raising he three small children.

She did not explain how the cadaver odour was found on her clothes and on the soft toy that was normally used by Maddie, or why the dogs marked the death inside the apartment.

Kate also chose not to clarify who had called Sky News, nor did she reveal whom she had called in the moments that immediately followed the disappearance.

In her deposition, Kate was also confronted with the fact that her refusal to make a statement might hinder the discovery of her daughter’s whereabouts. Nevertheless, she kept her silence.

Mother’s DNA on the window

The window had been forced open and the abductor had taken the child through it. That was the first possibility that was advanced by Kate to the authorities that collected residues on location. But the tests that were done at the IML [Portuguese forensics institute] ended up isolating just one DNA which did not belong to the child but rather to Kate. To the PJ, it is also practically impossible for anyone to carry the child out of that window, which does not even open completely.

Gerry accepted to speak to the police

On the day that he was made an arguido, Gerry accepted to answer all of the Judici&#225;ria’s questions.

Doubts about surveillance on the children

The PJ found contradictions in the friends’ testimonies concerning the manner in which the children were watched over.

Denied the use of sedatives on the children

Kate and Gerry have always denied to the PJ that they medicated the children or used any sedative to make them sleep. Maddie’s parents thus stated that their children went to bed early simply because they were used to that, and it was not even usual for them to wake in the middle of the night. CM knows that months after Maddie disappeared, Kate suggested to the Judici&#225;ria that the twins should be tested in order to find out whether they had been sedated that night. Something that the investigators found strange, given the fact that being doctors, they both knew that any residue would have disappeared by then. This was considered to be another indicator that Kate and Gerry were not telling the whole truth about what happened on the 3rd of May, hiding what had happened to the child.

...........................

Notes

Recorded | PJ taped action – The dogs’ search was recorded by the Pol&#237;cia Judici&#225;ria. The handler also wrote an extensive report that translated the signs that had been detected by the animals during their search for traces.

TIR | English address – Kate stated her identity and her residence and gave her English address. Therefore, the return home was not considered to be an escape from justice.

Return | Postponed promise – When they returned home, the McCanns promised to return if it was necessary to make a statement. The reconstitution was requested, but the friends boycotted it.

source: Correio da Manh&#227; 20.07.2008, paper edition

WmHersey
07-20-2008, 03:37 PM
Those people are hypocrisy personified!

& to think that we all thought that the Paynes were the decent ones who had perhaps broken ranks & told the truth! They are all in it up to their necks!

They probably are decent. Has no one thought this is just like the Murat smears. What better way to control someone who has information that might incriminate you than to have your friends go to the police and suggest they might be a paedophile. Then if they do tell what they know you can leak slanderous information to discredit them.

colomom
07-20-2008, 03:45 PM
They probably are decent. Has no one thought this is just like the Murat smears. What better way to control someone who has information that might incriminate you than to have your friends go to the police and suggest they might be a paedophile. Then if they do tell what they know you can leak slanderous information to discredit them.

Wow!! Now that is an angle I did not consider.

Thanks for posting Wm...

Salem
07-20-2008, 04:11 PM
Thanks for the answers about the English's lack of a sex offender database guys! I appreciate. I am disappointed to hear there is no database.

As to the comments about unnecessarily blemishing Payne's reputation in order to discredit him, I have some doubts. Mostly because the information is coming from the Portugese papers and not the English papers where it would be more likely that Clarence Mitchell & the McCanns would print such stuff.

The other side of that is - if there is any truth to the discrediting claim - then Payne should be stepping forward to clear his name and speak the truth about what happened.

So even if it is a discrediting attempt, in the long run the information should be helpful to the search for Maddie - either by re-investigating Payne or forcing Payne (or his wife) to step forward and spill what they know about May 3rd, 2007.

Just my thoughts,

Salem

april4sky
07-20-2008, 10:34 PM
Thanks for the answers about the English's lack of a sex offender database guys! I appreciate. I am disappointed to hear there is no database.

As to the comments about unnecessarily blemishing Payne's reputation in order to discredit him, I have some doubts. Mostly because the information is coming from the Portugese papers and not the English papers where it would be more likely that Clarence Mitchell & the McCanns would print such stuff.

The other side of that is - if there is any truth to the discrediting claim - then Payne should be stepping forward to clear his name and speak the truth about what happened.

So even if it is a discrediting attempt, in the long run the information should be helpful to the search for Maddie - either by re-investigating Payne or forcing Payne (or his wife) to step forward and spill what they know about May 3rd, 2007.

Just my thoughts,

SalemRight Salem. :blowkiss:
Still hoping we will be able to hear from all of them soon.

SleuthMom
07-21-2008, 12:46 AM
Assuming their arguido status will be lifted and the secrecy law no longer in the way I have the feeling that all of the sudden the Mc Canns will not give any interviews neither answer any questions. :rolleyes:

Barnaby
07-21-2008, 01:49 AM
They probably are decent. Has no one thought this is just like the Murat smears. What better way to control someone who has information that might incriminate you than to have your friends go to the police and suggest they might be a paedophile. Then if they do tell what they know you can leak slanderous information to discredit them.

Wow! Like Colomon, I never thought about this. Well if that is the case I hope that Payne will now break ranks & expose them! I sure would! Going away for the day but will be listening to the news!

Salem
07-21-2008, 01:59 AM
Barnaby - you're still up? I thought you went to bed hours ago! Or is your day just starting now? Have a lovely day, don't work to hard or shop to much. "See" you this afternoon!

Salem

Salem
07-21-2008, 02:02 AM
Assuming their arguido status will be lifted and the secrecy law no longer in the way I have the feeling that all of the sudden the Mc Canns will not give any interviews neither answer any questions. :rolleyes:


I think they will give lots of "interviews," the kind where the questions are pre-approved and there is no deviation from the script and they will request payment. Only if PLE does archive the investigation until new leads come in, I don't believe anyone will be willing to pay. So if the McCanns are really going to keep Maddie in the public eye, they may have to do a little paying of their own.

Salem

colomom
07-21-2008, 04:46 PM
Stay tuned people....

It may take awhile but there is a 57 page "final report" from the PJ (in .pdf and in Portuguese) that has just been released. Our friends are translating it for us...

I will open a new thread for it...

If you can read Portuguese: http://downloads.officeshare.pt/expressoonline/pdf/MaddieMcCann_PJ.pdf

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-21-2008, 07:23 PM
Thanks Colomom, just read the first few pages. So far nothing is "different" than the "rumors and smears" we've read over the last few months. That is encouraging.

Texana
07-21-2008, 07:34 PM
Thanks, Colomom. Looking forward to the translation.

Tony Bennett
07-22-2008, 05:03 PM
Well, back to the routine slog of sleuthing.

Especially if the Portuguese Police are no longer going to bother.

A new fact about Matthew Oldfield


One thing that did strike me on reading the 58-page Portuguese Judiciara report released on Monday (21st July) was the odd incident at 8.55am where Matthew Oldfield was apparently looking through the window to see if he could hear Madeleine.

This is the translation, I’ve slightly altered the provisional translation to make it read better in English:

Matthew Oldfield testifies that at around 8.55pm he went near the outside of the bedroom where Madeleine was sleeping – a window that was closed – in order to verify if there was any noise on the inside that might indicate that the child was not asleep. He heard nothing, therefore concluded that everything was well”.

Now I don't buy that story for a nanosecond.

Just like I don't buy anything of what the Tapas 9 say about that evening.

I suggest he was seen there around this time, perhaps by another witness, and had to explain his odd presence there. By 8.55pm, had he not yet left for the Tapas Bar? Or had he gone to the Tapas bar and returned at 8.55pm?

Question – what was he doing peering into the McCann children’s bedroom window?

I suggest that he may well have been involved with the final stages of a clean-up operation. Along with Gerry who admits to being there at 9.05pm to 9.10pm.

I suggest that it is possible from this disclosure by Matthew Oldfield that at least 3 of the Tapas 9 men were doing the final stages of the clean-up operation and perhaps preparing to move Madeleine, so that the alarm could be raised at 10.00pm.

Here are the three:

1) Gerry O'Brien, claiming to be checking his children at 9.05pm - 9.10pm. But was he there before 9.05pm? Nobody but Gerry and the other Tapas know.

2) Matthew Oldfield, peering into the children's bedroom at 8.55pm.

3) Russell O'Brien, nowhere to be seen, allegedly seeing to a sick child.

So when did the alleged ‘quiz’ start?

Maybe there was no quiz.

I have tracked down the ‘quizmistress’ to an address in south-east England which is just a few miles from the address of Dianne Webster, Fiona Payne’s mother. She was clearly part of the holiday group of friends.

That’s all I can make of this for now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnaby
07-22-2008, 05:56 PM
Barnaby - you're still up? I thought you went to bed hours ago! Or is your day just starting now? Have a lovely day, don't work to hard or shop to much. "See" you this afternoon!

Salem

Hi Salem,

Sorry i didn't see this post until now. That was the start of my day LOL I was just up to head off for the day! Thanks for the good wishes & oops yes I spent a little too much lol!

Tony Bennett
07-23-2008, 02:30 AM
At last, the truth:

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2008/07/pre-publication-of-amarals-book-on.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 06:02 AM
At last, the truth:

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2008/07/pre-publication-of-amarals-book-on.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I well believe that Tony.

Here is my theory after reading Pages 37 & 38 of report:

The piece about the dogs is very interesting, I didn't know cadaver odour was found on a piece of Madeleine's clothing until now!
Particularly interesting that both dogs alerted to the same spot behind the sofa! So she bled there & died there?
Perhaps climbed to try to get out of the window if door of apartment was actually locked contrary to what the McCanns say! That would be more sense to me, initially they did say the door was locked then changed their story when MW confirmed that shutters were not jemmied!
I mean they were told that there had been burglaries at the complex so I guess if they didn't care too much about their kids that they would care about their Passports & other personal belongings which would have been in the apartment & probably really did lock the door! Then lied to cover the fact that Madeleine couldn't get out & climbed & fell to her death - broke her neck which would be consistent with the blood spatter!

One thing for sure if I had just been cleared of an arguido status, I wouldn't like this kind of evidence to be kicking around in the public domain!
Do they really expect us to believe that on this one occasion BOTH dogs were wrong? Maybe the dogs conspired against them as well as PJ?

daffodil
07-23-2008, 08:14 AM
I well believe that Tony.

Here is my theory after reading Pages 37 & 38 of report:

The piece about the dogs is very interesting, I didn't know cadaver odour was found on a piece of Madeleine's clothing until now!
Particularly interesting that both dogs alerted to the same spot behind the sofa! So she bled there & died there?
Perhaps climbed to try to get out of the window if door of apartment was actually locked contrary to what the McCanns say! That would be more sense to me, initially they did say the door was locked then changed their story when MW confirmed that shutters were not jemmied!
I mean they were told that there had been burglaries at the complex so I guess if they didn't care too much about their kids that they would care about their Passports & other personal belongings which would have been in the apartment & probably really did lock the door! Then lied to cover the fact that Madeleine couldn't get out & climbed & fell to her death - broke her neck which would be consistent with the blood spatter!

One thing for sure if I had just been cleared of an arguido status, I wouldn't like this kind of evidence to be kicking around in the public domain!
Do they really expect us to believe that on this one occasion BOTH dogs were wrong? Maybe the dogs conspired against them as well as PJ?


Speculation.I thought I heard on the news the blood in the appt wasnt even Madelieines? :waitasec:

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-23-2008, 09:37 AM
Speculation.I thought I heard on the news the blood in the appt wasnt even Madelieines? :waitasec:

You believe everything you hear on the news? I'm shocked! :rolleyes: The news is pure speculation. Seems a bit hypocritical.

twinkiesmom
07-23-2008, 09:38 AM
I well believe that Tony.

Here is my theory after reading Pages 37 & 38 of report:

The piece about the dogs is very interesting, I didn't know cadaver odour was found on a piece of Madeleine's clothing until now!
Particularly interesting that both dogs alerted to the same spot behind the sofa! So she bled there & died there?
Perhaps climbed to try to get out of the window if door of apartment was actually locked contrary to what the McCanns say! That would be more sense to me, initially they did say the door was locked then changed their story when MW confirmed that shutters were not jemmied!
I mean they were told that there had been burglaries at the complex so I guess if they didn't care too much about their kids that they would care about their Passports & other personal belongings which would have been in the apartment & probably really did lock the door! Then lied to cover the fact that Madeleine couldn't get out & climbed & fell to her death - broke her neck which would be consistent with the blood spatter!

One thing for sure if I had just been cleared of an arguido status, I wouldn't like this kind of evidence to be kicking around in the public domain!
Do they really expect us to believe that on this one occasion BOTH dogs were wrong? Maybe the dogs conspired against them as well as PJ?

I don't see anywhere in the report where the blood in the apt. was sourced to Madeleine? Did she go out the window trying to escape the apartment and fell to her death in the flower bed? (or were they on the ground floor, and that wasn't a fatal fall?) Or did she refuse to go to bed at the twins' time and was beaten to death by an angry parent? Was cadaver scent detected in the flower bed because they used the window to get rid of the body?

colomom
07-23-2008, 09:58 AM
I don't see anywhere in the report where the blood in the apt. was sourced to Madeleine? Did she go out the window trying to escape the apartment and fell to her death in the flower bed? (or were they on the ground floor, and that wasn't a fatal fall?) Or did she refuse to go to bed at the twins' time and was beaten to death by an angry parent? Was cadaver scent detected in the flower bed because they used the window to get rid of the body?

This theory covers alot of your questions twinkiesmom:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2357284&postcount=132

I have read several reports about the FSS testing of the blood. I have seen 15 out of 19 markers or 18 out of 19 markers, either of would equal high probability that the blood was Madeleine's. I have not seen the actual report with my own eyes however.

The question is....if not Madeleine's, then whose? The PJ ruled out all except the residents of 5A on May 3rd 2007. Also if you combine the various different findings together you will find yourself at a logical conclusion.

Kate cries "they've taken her", she said she "knew immediately that Maddie had been abducted" and yet she leaves her twins alone in the apartment, with a open window, to run back to the Tapas. The cadaver and blood dogs alert in many places including on Madeleine's clothes. There is no evidence of an abduction and, in fact, the reconstruction that the PJ conducted proved that it could not have happened the way the McCanns reported. Why the lack of cooperation on behalf of the T9?

You really need to look at the whole picture and see what the preponderance of the evidence (even if circumstantial) tells you....

daffodil
07-23-2008, 11:55 AM
You believe everything you hear on the news? I'm shocked! :rolleyes: The news is pure speculation. Seems a bit hypocritical.


Whats hypocritical about it?

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 12:06 PM
Speculation.I thought I heard on the news the blood in the appt wasnt even Madelieines? :waitasec:

ROFL! The news is always inaccurate unless it reports something which appears to exonerate the parents, then it is fact! :rolleyes:

colomom
07-23-2008, 12:22 PM
Speculation.I thought I heard on the news the blood in the appt wasnt even Madelieines? :waitasec:

From The Truth of the Lie by Goncola Amaral

"The Low Copy Number, the technique that is used to determine the DNA from those samples, does not determine from which bodily fluid the DNA comes from. In the first case, it can be read that an incomplete DNA result was obtained, because the sample contained little information, presenting low level DNA indications that come from more than one person. But all the DNA components that are confirmed, match the corresponding components from Madeleine’s DNA profile!

Do you suppose somebody is going to file a lawsuit???

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-23-2008, 12:59 PM
Whats hypocritical about it?

:floorlaugh: Hello??? There is no use beating a dead horse...:other_beatingA_DeadYou can choose what rumors and smears you want to believe, and I'll choose mine.

All it took was ONE lie of the McCanns for me to see they where hiding something. As a child my parents taught me about the consequences of lying. The Little Boy who Cried Wolf, was a story I remember quite well. The moral of the story is, if you lie enough, no one will believe you when you do tell the truth. The McCanns started out with the biggest lie of all..."It was like dining in your garden, 50 feet away", that's all it took for me. They immediately, first thing from their lips, lied about the distance they where from their sleeping children...and still do to this day, even when we ALL know it is not true. They started making excuses for themselves instead of finding answers.

SO, what did your parents teach you about lying?

Tony Bennett
07-23-2008, 01:57 PM
daffodil wrote: "I thought I heard on the news the blood in the appt wasn't even Madeleine's..."

REPLY: daffodil wrote this (above) in reply to Barnaby referring to 'blood spatters on the wall'.

I agree with 95% of what Barnaby said, but I think it must be conceded that daffodil is correct on that point - we have seen nothing official about either the blood being on the wall, still less that any blood was Madeleine's. Has it been officially confirmed that there were blood spatters on the wall? - I have not seen it anywhere yet.

Having said that, there could be further revelations.

The problem for the McCanns is that there is now so much evidence that Madeleine died in the flat. That both Eddie and Keela should find (a) cadaverine - the 'death scent' and (b) blood - and in each case behind the sofa - would certainly help me, if I were on the jury, to go a long way in believing (and being sure) that Madeleine died in Apartment 5a.

Now the presence of cadaverine behind the sofa, I think, tells us that poor Madeleine's body was in that position - there, behind the sofa - long enough for the body to putrefy to the extent that cadaverine starts to be released.

Most accounts I have read suggest that this must have been for two hours or more, though some suggest that cadaverine can be released after a much shorter interval.

I conclude that Barnaby's theory of Madeleine trying to climb, then falling, maybe dying from loss of blood, is consistent with the known facts. Except that falls like that do not normally cause loss of life. The lack of anyone there when she fell would increase the risk of death, though.

If there had been an uncontrolled attack by either parent, I think there would have been more blood spots all over the place, which would have been very difficult for the McCanns and the Tapas 9 men to cover up in a clean-up operation.

Whilst Kate's known severe temper would be consistent with an uncontrolled attack on Madeleine having occurred, there is no evidence for it, and IMO the location of the cadaverine and blood makes the 'rage attack' theory much less likely.

The facts are consistent with suggestions that Madeleine was lying by the sofa until her parents returned from whatever they were doing the night before.

It is also possible, I think, that they may have stumbled into bed that night without noticing that Madeleine was unconscious or dead - and only have discovered her dead in the morning.

The account Kate and Gerry gave of Madeleine at breakfast on 3rd May, allegedly cheerfully asking them why they weren't there when she and Sean were crying, and then happily bouncing away to play, was woefully uinconvincing. It felt much more like a self-serving statement designed to try and prove that Madeleine was alive on 3rd May.

Elswhere I have analysed the 8 claimed occasions on which Madeleine is supposed to have been seen on 3rd May - and there are serious doubts about the reliablity of each and every claimed 'sighting' that day.

One final thought. The apparent willingness of the Tapas 9 to cover for the McCanns is much more consistent with the Doctors having experimented with sedatives on their children than with a 'rage attack' by either parent

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Texana
07-23-2008, 02:37 PM
Tony, I agree with your points. The "rage" injury has always seemed to me to be the weakest theory. The most likely scenario is the one that happens when children are left alone--accidental injury.

If Madeleine was going to the window or climbing on the sofa, she could have fallen just right, I think, for a fatal injury--particularly if the injury was unattended or undiscovered.

They could very well respond at that point with "Nothing we can do now, so we must salvage the rest of the family."

This wouldn't be inconsistent either with the use of sedatives. Nor would it contradict the "heard nothing" checks as reported. Mixing lies with truth, or not telling all the parties involved what actually happened--

And Kate's "They've taken her" would be absolutely true as well. At that point she could be grief-struck and in shock and let it all out.

colomom
07-23-2008, 02:49 PM
From the Truth of the Lie by Goncalo Amaral

"Throughout the 214 pages, Gonçalo Amaral remembers questions that remained unanswered – the twins’ cots had no bed sheets on the night that Maddie disappeared"

What happened to the sheets??

Texana
07-23-2008, 03:09 PM
From the Truth of the Lie by Goncalo Amaral

"Throughout the 214 pages, Gonçalo Amaral remembers questions that remained unanswered – the twins’ cots had no bed sheets on the night that Maddie disappeared"

What happened to the sheets??

Good question.

probably another one that wasn't answered by Kate.

daffodil
07-23-2008, 03:16 PM
ROFL! The news is always inaccurate unless it reports something which appears to exonerate the parents, then it is fact! :rolleyes:


I dont think I have ever said anything about the news one way or the other so please refresh my memory and show me what I said please and TIA.Oh and do get up off the floor its most unbecoming :crazy:

gord
07-23-2008, 03:30 PM
god - we seem to have gone back to the beginning with all sort theories about everything - give me strength - are we really now debating again about blood flow and splatters -


hello - they have been cleared - the Legal system in Portugal has done its job and looked at everything in detail - do you really think they would have missed all this


The case is done - it has been archived . I know you want to see the Mccaans in jail cell - but it doesnt work like that .

Thats why we have a judical system - and you know evidence - proper evidence by people who know what they are doing - not the press not leaked documents

The ironic thing is that this is yet another leaked report from Portugal -

ThoughtFox
07-23-2008, 03:32 PM
From the Truth of the Lie by Goncalo Amaral

"Throughout the 214 pages, Gonçalo Amaral remembers questions that remained unanswered – the twins’ cots had no bed sheets on the night that Maddie disappeared"

What happened to the sheets??

Holy FACTOID straight from the police report, Batgirl!

colomom
07-23-2008, 03:40 PM
Daffodil..

Oh come on now...it's not that difficult....

Barnaby quoted the latest news about the dogs findings regarding the blood and you responded "speculation". True, Barnaby then speculated about what those findings might mean but, that's what sleuths do.

Then you quoted another news report about the blood "not being Madeleine's".

So what makes your quoted report any less speculative than Barnaby's??

Perhaps it would serve you better to only post what you know to be absolute fact, that way you won't come across as being hypocritical.

Oh, and this: "Oh and do get up off the floor its most unbecoming" is totally unnecessary and does nothing for your credibility, IMO.

colomom
07-23-2008, 03:44 PM
god - we seem to have gone back to the beginning with all sort theories about everything - give me strength - are we really now debating again about blood flow and splatters -

hello - they have been cleared - the Legal system in Portugal has done its job and looked at everything in detail - do you really think they would have missed all this

The case is done - it has been archived . I know you want to see the Mccaans in jail cell - but it doesnt work like that .

Thats why we have a judical system - and you know evidence - proper evidence by people who know what they are doing - not the press not leaked documents

The ironic thing is that this is yet another leaked report from Portugal -

If you really believe this to be true gord, I have a question for you.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by continuing to post about this case?

Not everyone thinks the way you do and not everyone agrees with your point of view.

Seriously.....

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 03:45 PM
I dont think I have ever said anything about the news one way or the other so please refresh my memory and show me what I said please and TIA.Oh and do get up off the floor its most unbecoming :crazy:

Your memory is short:

Originally Posted by daffodil http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2408248#post2408248)
Speculation.I thought I heard on the news the blood in the appt wasnt even Madelieines? :waitasec:


the very post that I replied to!
Oh & sarcasm is just as unbecoming as rolling on the floor laughing, in fact it is the lowest form of wit!

Texana
07-23-2008, 03:55 PM
The case hasn't been archived here.

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 03:55 PM
From the Truth of the Lie by Goncalo Amaral

"Throughout the 214 pages, Gonçalo Amaral remembers questions that remained unanswered – the twins’ cots had no bed sheets on the night that Maddie disappeared"

What happened to the sheets??

WoW! We can all speculate about that indeed! I hope we will hear an explanation form the McCanns! Thanks for posting that snippet, Colomon!


god - we seem to have gone back to the beginning with all sort theories about everything - give me strength - are we really now debating again about blood flow and splatters -


hello - they have been cleared - the Legal system in Portugal has done its job and looked at everything in detail - do you really think they would have missed all this


The case is done - it has been archived . I know you want to see the Mccaans in jail cell - but it doesnt work like that .

Thats why we have a judical system - and you know evidence - proper evidence by people who know what they are doing - not the press not leaked documents

The ironic thing is that this is yet another leaked report from Portugal -

Gord they have been "cleared" because of lack of evidence, not because there is no evidence against them but not enough the police obviously feel to make it stick with their high powered lawyers & UK Govt. backing!


Tony, I know there are unconfirmed rumours about blood spatter but I just meant the fact that the dogs alerted to blood there which made me think of the possibility that Madeleine fell & died there.
I am not entirely convinced about my own theory, part of me thinks that the whole thing was pre planned. I think that if parents lost a child because of an accident, regardless of their instinct to preserve their status, there would have to have been more grief involved & I think that even if they managed to dispose of the body & concoct the abduction theory, they would still be too disoriented to spring into action with funds etc. so quickly.

Tony Bennett
07-23-2008, 04:01 PM
gord wrote: "hello - they have been cleared..."

REPLY: gord, HELLO!! - sorry for the shout there, but you don't seem to be one of the world's greatest listeners.

Um, someone is 'cleared' when a jury finds them 'not guilty'.

The investigation has been suspended, not closed down. There is evidence, but not sufficient evidence.

Now that you're listening properly - hello again, they have not been cleared

P.S. Woof! Woof!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Bennett
07-23-2008, 04:14 PM
REPLIES TO BARNABY INTERLEAVED:

BARNABY: I am not entirely convinced about my own theory, part of me thinks that the whole thing was pre planned.

REPLY: I have seen all the theories about pre-planning. Given the amazing rapidity of the media reaction and the deft setting-up of a huge fund within days, I can see where that speculation comes from. I think the answer lies here: The McCanns, the Tapas 9, and others linked to them had high-powered political and media contacts. They swung into action in blind support of the McCanns. The most I will concede is that it might well have crossed the mind of one or both parents at some stage that they would be better off without Madeleine.

There is one thing that makes me certain that this was not pre-planned. What a terrible mess they made of it. Madeleine crying and overheard by neighbours. False stories about shutters being jemmied open. Tapas 9 in a state of confusion over timelines. Jane Tanner at 6s and 7s about whether she saw an abductor and what he looked like. Madeleine dead in Apartment 5a and blood and cadaverine oozing out of her pathetic little body.

No, that was not pre-planned.

Off the top of my head, I can think immediately of 10 better ways to make an unwanted child 'disappear'. But I won't go into detail

BARNABY: I think that if parents lost a child because of an accident, regardless of their instinct to preserve their status, there would have to have been more grief involved & I think that even if they managed to dispose of the body & concoct the abduction theory, they would still be too disoriented to spring into action with funds etc. so quickly.

REPLY: Gerry McCann and Kate McCann are nothing if not quick thinkers. They are impelled by what they see as a desperate force of necessity to promulgate and promote a lie. And IMO they are very cunning

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 04:26 PM
^^^^^^

You are probably right Tony, it just comes to mind Gerry saying on the video that he was not there to have fun, strange for anyone to say going on holidays! Then there was the report of a Social Worker saying that they had tried to have Madeleine adopted! Whatever way it happened, I don't think she was a loved child, I always have the vision of that photograph where she was biting her little lip & looking afraid!

I do agree that they are extremely cunning people! Not particularly bright though in the way they screwed up their stories! Just looking at a news item where it is recommended that doctors be assessed yearly as to their competency soon! What a brilliant idea, with misdiagnoses costing lives every year!

gord
07-23-2008, 05:35 PM
gord wrote: "hello - they have been cleared..."

REPLY: gord, HELLO!! - sorry for the shout there, but you don't seem to be one of the world's greatest listeners.

Um, someone is 'cleared' when a jury finds them 'not guilty'.

The investigation has been suspended, not closed down. There is evidence, but not sufficient evidence.

Now that you're listening properly - hello again, they have not been cleared

P.S. Woof! Woof!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Tony - you dont listen or see - they have not been charged of anything not a jot of charges .

They have been CLEARED of charges . I know it is difficult to understand but that is what has happened

colomom
07-23-2008, 05:42 PM
No Tony - you dont listen or see - they have not been charged of anything not a jot of charges .

They have been CLEARED of charges . I know it is difficult to understand but that is what has happened

They were never charged....I know it is difficult to understand but that is what has happened.

colomom
07-23-2008, 05:46 PM
From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2404919&postcount=342

Madeleine case

PJ will continue to follow every lead

The national director of the Pol&#237;cia Judici&#225;ria guaranteed today that every lead that appears, in connection with the Madeleine McCann case, which was archived by the Public Ministry on Monday, will continue to be followed.

“What I consider to be important is that the Pol&#237;cia Judici&#225;ria (PJ) will continue to follow every lead that may appear and it expects to do so in silence, without noises and obviously without the presence of the media”, the PJ’s national director, Almeida Rodrigues, stated to Lusa agency today.

“If any elements that allow for us to proceed with the investigations appear, that will certainly be done”, he added.

The Public Ministry decided on Monday to archive the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and to lift the condition of arguidos from the minor’s parents and from Robert Murat, safeguarding that the process may be reopened if “new elements of proof” appear.

According to a note from the Attorney General’s Office, despite the archiving, the inquiry may be reopened by the initiative of the Public Ministry or upon request from an interested party if “new elements of proof appear, that give origin to serious, pertinent and consequent diligences”.

Doesn't sound like it "over" to me.....

gord
07-23-2008, 05:51 PM
From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2404919&postcount=342

Madeleine case

PJ will continue to follow every lead

The national director of the Polícia Judiciária guaranteed today that every lead that appears, in connection with the Madeleine McCann case, which was archived by the Public Ministry on Monday, will continue to be followed.

“What I consider to be important is that the Polícia Judiciária (PJ) will continue to follow every lead that may appear and it expects to do so in silence, without noises and obviously without the presence of the media”, the PJ’s national director, Almeida Rodrigues, stated to Lusa agency today.

“If any elements that allow for us to proceed with the investigations appear, that will certainly be done”, he added.

The Public Ministry decided on Monday to archive the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, and to lift the condition of arguidos from the minor’s parents and from Robert Murat, safeguarding that the process may be reopened if “new elements of proof” appear.

According to a note from the Attorney General’s Office, despite the archiving, the inquiry may be reopened by the initiative of the Public Ministry or upon request from an interested party if “new elements of proof appear, that give origin to serious, pertinent and consequent diligences”.

Doesn't sound like it "over" to me.....

great - why dont you and tony get together and send them over all your new evidence that you seem to have gathered over the past few days

colomom
07-23-2008, 06:05 PM
great - why dont you and tony get together and send them over all your new evidence that you seem to have gathered over the past few days

Do you mean the "evidence" we have been discussing the last few days that came from this:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/FinalRptCover.jpg

Is that the "evidence" you are talking about?? Actually, I think they already have it.

gord
07-23-2008, 06:12 PM
Do you mean the "evidence" we have been discussing the last few days that came from this:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/FinalRptCover.jpg

Is that the "evidence" you are talking about?? Actually, I think they already have it.

oh my god - they have the evidence already - but I thought they were very organistion that stated in public that there was NO EVIDENCE to say that either a crime was comitted or the Mcaans were involved . or have they missed something in their own report ??

the case is over deal with it

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 06:21 PM
oh my god - they have the evidence already - but I thought they were very organistion that stated in public that there was NO EVIDENCE to say that either a crime was comitted or the Mcaans were involved . or have they missed something in their own report ??

the case is over deal with it

Have you actually read the report?

colomom
07-23-2008, 06:22 PM
oh my god - they have the evidence already - but I thought they were very organistion that stated in public that there was NO EVIDENCE to say that either a crime was comitted or the Mcaans were involved . or have they missed something in their own report ??

the case is over deal with it

I believe that it is a matter of interpretation gord. You read it as NO evidence and I read it as NOT ENOUGH evidence.

I would suggest that you read the report and then come to your own conclusions, just as I have.

I would never presume to tell you that "the case is not over deal with it" because I have been taught manners and decorum.

You have not answered my question.....

daffodil
07-23-2008, 06:28 PM
[quote=Barnaby;2409895]Your memory is short:

Originally Posted by daffodil http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2408248#post2408248)
Speculation.I thought I heard on the news the blood in the appt wasnt even Madelieines? :waitasec:




the very post that I replied to!
Oh & sarcasm is just as unbecoming as rolling on the floor laughing, in fact it is the lowest form of w



Given your response I thought I must have posted derogatory remarks about the news PRIOR to my current post-guess not.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but the highest form of intelligence.

gord
07-23-2008, 06:57 PM
I believe that it is a matter of interpretation gord. You read it as NO evidence and I read it as NOT ENOUGH evidence.

I would suggest that you read the report and then come to your own conclusions, just as I have.

I would never presume to tell you that "the case is not over deal with it" because I have been taught manners and decorum.

You have not answered my question.....

well you can interpret it any way you want - but back in the real world this case has now been shelved

I am not sure what question you mean

remember this report came from the PJ whose own legal prosecution judges have said that it does not give any evidence of a crime being comitted - not enough evidence

please show me in the report where it says not enough evidence

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-23-2008, 07:00 PM
I have a stong hunch that the PJ "Shelved" the case for a very good reason. I'm hoping it might just let a few guards down.

I find it highly strange the Twins didn't have sheets on their beds the night Maddie disappeared. Remember way back when it was rumored and speculated that ALL of the tapas children where in the room together? What ever happened w/that?


I wonder if ANY of the children were ever talked to. I wonder if any of those kids are ever left in the hands of a teacher or baby sitter other than one of the Tapas group or their immediate relatives? Of course now, since they are so young, I doubt they even remember going on the trip.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-23-2008, 07:06 PM
oh my god - they have the evidence already - but I thought they were very organistion that stated in public that there was NO EVIDENCE to say that either a crime was comitted or the Mcaans were involved . or have they missed something in their own report ??

the case is over deal with it

Of course you have every right to be here, as do the other McCann supporters, but I really am confused as to why you are. You have accomplished your mission, you got the McCanns "Cleared". They are untouchable and innocent in the eyes of the public and especially in your eyes. What more do you want? Do you want the forum closed down and all discussion stopped?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-23-2008, 07:13 PM
^^^^^^

You are probably right Tony, it just comes to mind Gerry saying on the video that he was not there to have fun, strange for anyone to say going on holidays! Then there was the report of a Social Worker saying that they had tried to have Madeleine adopted! Whatever way it happened, I don't think she was a loved child, I always have the vision of that photograph where she was biting her little lip & looking afraid!

I do agree that they are extremely cunning people! Not particularly bright though in the way they screwed up their stories! Just looking at a news item where it is recommended that doctors be assessed yearly as to their competency soon! What a brilliant idea, with misdiagnoses costing lives every year!

Bold mine. - This is one rumor and/or smear I've never heard, Barnaby...Could you PM me with a link or more details? Thanks!!

colomom
07-23-2008, 07:15 PM
well you can interpret it any way you want - but back in the real world (nice) this case has now been shelved

So? Does that mean I am no longer allowed to discuss it??

I am not sure what question you mean (Post #350)

remember this report came from the PJ whose own legal prosecution judges have said that it does not give any evidence of a crime being comitted - not enough evidence

please show me in the report where it says not enough evidence

You just said I could interpret it any way I want....


**Great minds IW**

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 07:21 PM
Bold mine. - This is one rumor and/or smear I've never heard, Barnaby...Could you PM me with a link or more details? Thanks!!
It was mentioned on the 3A's quite some time ago IW, I am really sorry I have no idea where to find but I will sure trawl through the old threads in the next few days & try, might not be that easy!

There has also been a recent reference to it somewhere, I need to think where I saw that I have read so much in the last few days, something about wanting to have Madeleine minded? Anyone remember this? The reference was a bit non specific but having read about the Social Worker it rang a bell with me!

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 07:27 PM
Of course you have every right to be here, as do the other McCann supporters, but I really am confused as to why you are. You have accomplished your mission, you got the McCanns "Cleared". They are untouchable and innocent in the eyes of the public and especially in your eyes. What more do you want? Do you want the forum closed down and all discussion stopped?

I was thinking the same thing, if it is done & dusted, over, caput, why continue to post, just for the sake of argument? & I agree with Colomon, "the case is over, deal with it" is quite rude!

Texana
07-23-2008, 07:35 PM
Oh please, Al Fayed is still running around ten years later claiming a grand conspiracy in Diana's death (and his son's.)

We certainly have get at least ten days Gord, maybe ten months. Maybe ten years or so.

I can't see where anybody cares what I sit around talking about or Colomom or any of us, really, it's somewhat presumptuous, don't you think, to tell other people when to get over it, it being anything at all?

daffodil
07-23-2008, 07:36 PM
Of course you have every right to be here, as do the other McCann supporters, but I really am confused as to why you are. You have accomplished your mission, you got the McCanns "Cleared". They are untouchable and innocent in the eyes of the public and especially in your eyes. What more do you want? Do you want the forum closed down and all discussion stopped?


Great idea :woohoo::woohoo:

colomom
07-23-2008, 07:51 PM
Great idea :woohoo::woohoo:

Sarcasm...remember??

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ladypercy/smiley1146.gifhttp://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ladypercy/smiley1146.gifhttp://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ladypercy/smiley1146.gif

Don't worry Daffodil, we wouldn't dream of denying you all this fun!

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 08:06 PM
Sarcasm...remember??

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ladypercy/smiley1146.gifhttp://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ladypercy/smiley1146.gifhttp://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w86/ladypercy/smiley1146.gif

Don't worry Daffodil, we wouldn't dream of denying you all this fun!

Ah but remember daffodil claims that sarcasm is the highest form of intelligence???? yet he/she cannot see what is right under her nose in this case - blood, cadaver odour in the apartment where it has been established that noone ever died before!
Strange that, a child has gone whoosh clunk into thin air well over a year ago & highly trained dogs with proven record just happen to alert to this apartment & other personal items of the child's parents!
Ah but sure it's all leaks & smears isn't it, a huge conspiracy to implicate two innocent doctors from Uk who were exemplary parents ( all good parents leave kids alone to cry in the dark while they get p****d) I just wonder how they got the dogs to cooperate in this little scam? Extra doggie bikkies if you lie this time Eddie & Keela! ROFL!

& to Daffodil, yes I am on the floor again laughing & this post is full of sarcasm! Proving that you are right on one point, I am highly intelligent, way too intelligent not to see through the web of deceit that the McCanns have spun in the past year+!

colomom
07-23-2008, 08:11 PM
Bold mine. - This is one rumor and/or smear I've never heard, Barnaby...Could you PM me with a link or more details? Thanks!!


It was mentioned on the 3A's quite some time ago IW, I am really sorry I have no idea where to find but I will sure trawl through the old threads in the next few days & try, might not be that easy!

There has also been a recent reference to it somewhere, I need to think where I saw that I have read so much in the last few days, something about wanting to have Madeleine minded? Anyone remember this? The reference was a bit non specific but having read about the Social Worker it rang a bell with me!

I found this:

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11365&p=296001&hilit=adoption#p296001

Not much but I also remember reading about those rumors. Something about finding an entry on a court docket in 2006? I'll let you know if I find more.

More: http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11959&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=135 (last post on this page and discussion follows).

Barnaby
07-23-2008, 08:21 PM
I found this:

http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11365&p=296001&hilit=adoption#p296001

Not much but I also remember reading about those rumors. Something about finding an entry on a court docket in 2006? I'll let you know if I find more.

More: http://the3arguidos.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11959&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=135 (last post on this page and discussion follows).

Thanks for trying to find link Colomon, I have also been browsing but cannot find the exact thread where someone was very sure that Madeleine had been put up for adoption some time ago! Brings me back to my premeditated theory!

SleuthMom
07-23-2008, 09:10 PM
Wow after reading some responses I can only say WOW.

You know guys, I understand we all think differently. Some of us think the Mc Canns are guilty others feel they're innocent but for the life of me I cannot COMPREHEND how those who support the Mc Canns are okay about this case being "closed"! :eek: WHAT ABOUT MADELEINE? :furious: or is it that for them it was never about her! :furious:

For me, even if the Mc Canns were found guilty and sent to jail I won't stop thinking and trying to figure out where is our sweet little Madeleine!

The Madeleine Mc Cann thread in this forum should be OPEN MORE THAN EVER with full discussion! Those who feel we shouldn't discuss the case anymore ARE JUST DREAMERS!

We will talk about her until we found out exactly what happened with Madeleine and nobody will try to stop us from doing this!

Just my two cents!

colomom
07-23-2008, 09:32 PM
Wow after reading some responses I can only say WOW.

You know guys, I understand we all think differently. Some of us think the Mc Canns are guilty others feel they're innocent but for the life of me I cannot COMPREHEND how those who support the Mc Canns are okay about this case being "closed"! :eek: WHAT ABOUT MADELEINE? :furious: or is it that for them it was never about her! :furious:

For me, even if the Mc Canns were found guilty and sent to jail I won't stop thinking and trying to figure out where is our sweet little Madeleine!

The Madeleine Mc Cann thread in this forum should be OPEN MORE THAN EVER with full discussion! Those who feel we shouldn't discuss the case anymore ARE JUST DREAMERS!

We will talk about her until we found out exactly what happened with Madeleine and nobody will try to stop us from doing this!

Just my two cents!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

In my book SM, your
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/two-cents.jpg is worth
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/millen20a.jpg

Texana
07-23-2008, 09:38 PM
Wow after reading some responses I can only say WOW.

You know guys, I understand we all think differently. Some of us think the Mc Canns are guilty others feel they're innocent but for the life of me I cannot COMPREHEND how those who support the Mc Canns are okay about this case being "closed"! :eek: WHAT ABOUT MADELEINE? :furious: or is it that for them it was never about her! :furious:

For me, even if the Mc Canns were found guilty and sent to jail I won't stop thinking and trying to figure out where is our sweet little Madeleine!

The Madeleine Mc Cann thread in this forum should be OPEN MORE THAN EVER with full discussion! Those who feel we shouldn't discuss the case anymore ARE JUST DREAMERS!

We will talk about her until we found out exactly what happened with Madeleine and nobody will try to stop us from doing this!

Just my two cents!

Amen!

april4sky
07-23-2008, 10:40 PM
Wow after reading some responses I can only say WOW.

You know guys, I understand we all think differently. Some of us think the Mc Canns are guilty others feel they're innocent but for the life of me I cannot COMPREHEND how those who support the Mc Canns are okay about this case being "closed"! :eek: WHAT ABOUT MADELEINE? :furious: or is it that for them it was never about her! :furious:
Yes SleuthMom it should be about Madeleine shouldn't it? :furious: But sadly it still isn't is it? For some it's still about attacking her parents...even though we now know there is no evidence....and thankfully no evidence that Madeleine is dead.:clap::clap::clap:

And I think you have things twisted.
What is impossible to comprehend is that some of those who think :rolleyes: the McCanns are guilty are clearly not concerned that this witch hunt..."there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead" has all but destroyed the search for her.

The McCanns have been cleared....no matter how some like to twist this..and yes the case shelved.
But the search will go on by people who care!! :clap::clap:

Texana
07-23-2008, 11:29 PM
No evidence she is dead?

Cadaver dogs hitting on the spot where the blood odor dogs hit as well--and DNA traces of Madeleine as well.

Cadaver dogs hitting on the car trunk and keys, Kate's clothes, the toy.

That is not "no evidence" that is simply evidence April, you choose to not accept.

april4sky
07-23-2008, 11:51 PM
No evidence she is dead?

Cadaver dogs hitting on the spot where the blood odor dogs hit as well--and DNA traces of Madeleine as well.

Cadaver dogs hitting on the car trunk and keys, Kate's clothes, the toy.

That is not "no evidence" that is simply evidence April, you choose to not accept.Yes No evidence Texana.
Check out the results of the DNA tests. They couldn't even confirm that it was blood in the car.:waitasec:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/07/23/dossier-reveals-kate-and-gerry-mccann-made-suspects-on-flimsiest-of-evidence-115875-20662935/

The report by the Policia Judiciaria - Portugal's CID - claimed a cadaver dog detected a "scent of death" in the family's apartment, on clothes belonging to Kate and Madeleine, on her Cuddle Cat toy and on the key fob of the Renault Scenic rented 24 days after she vanished.
Preliminary tests on DNA from the hire car suggested a possible match with Madeleine, but final results could not match to a particular person - or even establish whether it was blood or another type of body fluid.
But the report says it was for these reasons Portuguese cops felt that there was the "slightest chance of their involvement with a possible corpse".

And recently the PJ still included abduction amongst their theories...now there's a clue!!

Texana
07-24-2008, 12:07 AM
We clearly did not read the same report.

A cadaver dog AND a blood odor dog make repeated hits in an apartment where a child has gone missing. They make hits on the parent's clothing, the car key, and the car trunk as well.

This is not disputed by the British police or the dog handlers,.

The Portuguese police did not "claim" the dogs made repeated hits. The dogs did.

april4sky
07-24-2008, 12:21 AM
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/210755.html

On Monday, Mr and Mrs McCann were formally cleared of any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, after the Portuguese attorney general, having reviewed the entire police investigation, ruled that there was no evidence to suggest that they, or Robert Murat, the local businessman also named a suspect, had committed any crime.

It should provide some small measure of justice and relief to what any fair-minded person must now conclude are a grotesquely maligned couple.

The investigators, in truth, were at fault from the very beginning. Journalists, police officers and other experts who witnessed the early stages of the investigation were struck by how out of their depth the police seemed. Their failure to secure the crime scene, close the borders, take early witness statements and conform to other basic investigative good practice has been well reported. The most senior police officer, Goncalo Amaral, was abruptly removed from the case and demoted over his handling of it, while his office spent last summer leaking extremely prejudicial material about the McCanns to local media. (Amaral is currently facing perjury charges, which he denies, in relation to another missing child case, which might cast doubt on the credibility of his own tell-all book
But there is no question that Kate and Gerry McCann were horribly failed by the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.

A few voices in Portugal are now willing to acknowledge as much. "Since the earliest days," Miguel Sousa Tavares wrote in the daily Expresso this week.
"I had the impression that the PJ did not have the slightest thought-through strategy ....the PJ didn't know what to do. Their old, lazy methods hadn't worked and it didn't know any other ones."

But as the McCanns' own investigators begin trawling through the police files - and who can now criticize them for appointing their own detectives? - in an attempt to rekindle long cold leads, it is not only the Portuguese police who should feel chastened this week.

Several newspapers and broadcasters simply suspended their own sense of natural justice and any legal caution to publish whatever they liked - much of it unsourced and the worst of it entirely libellous. (The McCanns won £550,000 in a libel settlement from one newspaper group but could have pursued many others if they had been so minded.)

And so, for the record, this is where we stand on the supposed evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann. There was never any DNA "proof" that Madeleine's body had been in the couple's hire car - forensics experts have always argued for caution in interpreting sniffer dogs' reactions.
An American court case ruled this kind of evidence inadmissable last year after finding that three supposedly "specialist" dogs were incorrect between 62% and 78% of the time.

Whatever became of the presumption of innocence?
****
Excellent article. :clap::clap:

april4sky
07-24-2008, 12:25 AM
We clearly did not read the same report.

A cadaver dog AND a blood odor dog make repeated hits in an apartment where a child has gone missing. They make hits on the parent's clothing, the car key, and the car trunk as well.

This is not disputed by the British police or the dog handlers,.

The Portuguese police did not "claim" the dogs made repeated hits. The dogs did.Clearly!!
Why do you suppose abduction is still included as one of the PJ's theories?

daffodil
07-24-2008, 07:06 AM
Ah but remember daffodil claims that sarcasm is the highest form of intelligence???? yet he/she cannot see what is right under her nose in this case - blood, cadaver odour in the apartment where it has been established that noone ever died before!
Strange that, a child has gone whoosh clunk into thin air well over a year ago & highly trained dogs with proven record just happen to alert to this apartment & other personal items of the child's parents!
Ah but sure it's all leaks & smears isn't it, a huge conspiracy to implicate two innocent doctors from Uk who were exemplary parents ( all good parents leave kids alone to cry in the dark while they get p****d) I just wonder how they got the dogs to cooperate in this little scam? Extra doggie bikkies if you lie this time Eddie & Keela! ROFL!

& to Daffodil, yes I am on the floor again laughing & this post is full of sarcasm! Proving that you are right on one point, I am highly intelligent, way too intelligent not to see through the web of deceit that the McCanns have spun in the past year+!


Wow you rate yourself pretty high,higher than the PJ who have found NO EVIDENCE against the McCanns :eek:.I bow to your superiority :rolleyes: I almost joined you on the floor laughing :laugh:

daffodil
07-24-2008, 07:11 AM
We clearly did not read the same report.

A cadaver dog AND a blood odor dog make repeated hits in an apartment where a child has gone missing. They make hits on the parent's clothing, the car key, and the car trunk as well.

This is not disputed by the British police or the dog handlers,.

The Portuguese police did not "claim" the dogs made repeated hits. The dogs did.


Yet still not enough to charge the parents.

daffodil
07-24-2008, 07:16 AM
:clap:
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/210755.html

On Monday, Mr and Mrs McCann were formally cleared of any involvement in Madeleine's disappearance, after the Portuguese attorney general, having reviewed the entire police investigation, ruled that there was no evidence to suggest that they, or Robert Murat, the local businessman also named a suspect, had committed any crime.

It should provide some small measure of justice and relief to what any fair-minded person must now conclude are a grotesquely maligned couple.

The investigators, in truth, were at fault from the very beginning. Journalists, police officers and other experts who witnessed the early stages of the investigation were struck by how out of their depth the police seemed. Their failure to secure the crime scene, close the borders, take early witness statements and conform to other basic investigative good practice has been well reported. The most senior police officer, Goncalo Amaral, was abruptly removed from the case and demoted over his handling of it, while his office spent last summer leaking extremely prejudicial material about the McCanns to local media. (Amaral is currently facing perjury charges, which he denies, in relation to another missing child case, which might cast doubt on the credibility of his own tell-all book
But there is no question that Kate and Gerry McCann were horribly failed by the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance.

A few voices in Portugal are now willing to acknowledge as much. "Since the earliest days," Miguel Sousa Tavares wrote in the daily Expresso this week.
"I had the impression that the PJ did not have the slightest thought-through strategy ....the PJ didn't know what to do. Their old, lazy methods hadn't worked and it didn't know any other ones."

But as the McCanns' own investigators begin trawling through the police files - and who can now criticize them for appointing their own detectives? - in an attempt to rekindle long cold leads, it is not only the Portuguese police who should feel chastened this week.

Several newspapers and broadcasters simply suspended their own sense of natural justice and any legal caution to publish whatever they liked - much of it unsourced and the worst of it entirely libellous. (The McCanns won £550,000 in a libel settlement from one newspaper group but could have pursued many others if they had been so minded.)

And so, for the record, this is where we stand on the supposed evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann. There was never any DNA "proof" that Madeleine's body had been in the couple's hire car - forensics experts have always argued for caution in interpreting sniffer dogs' reactions.
An American court case ruled this kind of evidence inadmissable last year after finding that three supposedly "specialist" dogs were incorrect between 62% and 78% of the time.

Whatever became of the presumption of innocence?
****
Excellent article. :clap::clap:


I agree :clap:

daffodil
07-24-2008, 07:22 AM
Yes SleuthMom it should be about Madeleine shouldn't it? :furious: But sadly it still isn't is it? For some it's still about attacking her parents...even though we now know there is no evidence....and thankfully no evidence that Madeleine is dead.:clap::clap::clap:

And I think you have things twisted.
What is impossible to comprehend is that some of those who think :rolleyes: the McCanns are guilty are clearly not concerned that this witch hunt..."there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead" has all but destroyed the search for her.

The McCanns have been cleared....no matter how some like to twist this..and yes the case shelved.
But the search will go on by people who care!! :clap::clap:


Good post April-it should be about Madeliene :clap:

Texana
07-24-2008, 07:54 AM
Yet still not enough to charge the parents.

How could they?

All the defense for the McCanns would have to point out is that the McCanns left Maddie alone. Other people had access to the car and the apartment.

Don't you find it curious that the dogs hit on the exact spot where if Madeleine, left alone, climbed on the sofa and fell, she would have lain?

And on the toy she might have been clutching as well?

april4sky
07-24-2008, 08:04 AM
How could they?

All the defense for the McCanns would have to point out is that the McCanns left Maddie alone. Other people had access to the car and the apartment.

Don't you find it curious that the dogs hit on the exact spot where if Madeleine, left alone, climbed on the sofa and fell, she would have lain?

And on the toy she might have been clutching as well?Curious that you don't accept that there is NO DNA match to a dead Madeleine. :rolleyes: Curious too why you wouldn't be pleased about this. :waitasec:

colomom
07-24-2008, 08:44 AM
Yes SleuthMom it should be about Madeleine shouldn't it? :furious: But sadly it still isn't is it? For some it's still about attacking her parents...even though we now know there is no evidence....and thankfully no evidence that Madeleine is dead.:clap::clap::clap:

And I think you have things twisted.
What is impossible to comprehend is that some of those who think :rolleyes: the McCanns are guilty are clearly not concerned that this witch hunt..."there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead" has all but destroyed the search for her.

The McCanns have been cleared....no matter how some like to twist this..and yes the case shelved.
But the search will go on by people who care!! :clap::clap:

I really wish you would stop referring to the McCanns as witches.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-24-2008, 08:46 AM
Hey guys, I can see what is happening here and please don;t take the bate. Make use of the ignore button. Trish, (Site owner) and the moderators have had some tough times lately and they will not be dealing with a lot of bickering. I believe the the rudeness and resent onslaught of a select few is an attempt to get the thread locked. I've seen it happen before. Ignore.

colomom
07-24-2008, 09:25 AM
Hey guys, I can see what is happening here and please don;t take the bate. Make use of the ignore button. Trish, (Site owner) and the moderators have had some tough times lately and they will not be dealing with a lot of bickering. I believe the the rudeness and resent onslaught of a select few is an attempt to get the thread locked. I've seen it happen before. Ignore.

I admit that I have dropped my normally constrained attitude the last couple of days and I hope I have not offended anybody. I guess that after all this time trying to be exceedingly patient, and after the latest blow to the search for justice for Maddie, I found myself discouraged and disillusioned.

I promise to stop the sarcasm war and re-focus myself. In order to achieve this goal I will take a break for awhile. I will continue to bring over the Portuguese Press and I will be available to communicate via PM.

I only want to find out what happened to our girl. Collateral damage does not matter to me. I will never give up on Maddie....never.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb291/ironbetty/ignore.gif

april4sky
07-24-2008, 09:32 AM
Hey guys, I can see what is happening here and please don;t take the bate. IW i've been trying not take the bait for a looooong time. :rolleyes:

april4sky
07-24-2008, 10:12 AM
Police boss in Madeleine McCann case makes outlandish claims in book

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/07/24/police-boss-in-madeleine-mccann-case-makes-outlandish-claims-in-book-115875-20668829/

The ex-police boss who led the Madeleine hunt is cashing in on the McCanns' heartache in a series of outlandish claims in his book.

"He is entirely at odds with his own Attorney General who said there is absolutely no proof any criminal offence was committed by Kate or Gerry.

Goncalo Amaral was sacked from the case.

He faces a perjury trial over claims he helped cover up alleged torture of a mum whose daughter vanished near where Madeleine disappeared.
*****
And this is the guy who was leading the investigation. :furious:

Rhett
07-24-2008, 10:25 AM
I haven't had a chance to catch up with everything here but I just read over the Portugese news thread that Kate's brother Alexander was in Portugal with the McCann's. Was this before Maddie disappeared or did he come after to help the family? I just wondered why he wasn't considered part of the Tappas 9. Wow about David Payne and Jerry. That could explain alot.

april4sky
07-24-2008, 10:52 AM
I haven't had a chance to catch up with everything here but I just read over the Portugese news thread that Kate's brother Alexander was in Portugal with the McCann's. Was this before Maddie disappeared or did he come after to help the family? I just wondered why he wasn't considered part of the Tappas 9. Wow about David Payne and Jerry. That could explain alot.This is a new one.:waitasec:
I believe Kate is an only child.

Barnaby
07-24-2008, 10:55 AM
Hey guys, I can see what is happening here and please don;t take the bate. Make use of the ignore button. Trish, (Site owner) and the moderators have had some tough times lately and they will not be dealing with a lot of bickering. I believe the the rudeness and resent onslaught of a select few is an attempt to get the thread locked. I've seen it happen before. Ignore.

Agreed IW, I have ignored one for a long time now, will take your advice & ignore the rest! Like Colomon I am discouraged that Justice may not be done for a little girl who was so badly neglected at best & one tends to try to fight her corner!


I haven't had a chance to catch up with everything here but I just read over the Portugese news thread that Kate's brother Alexander was in Portugal with the McCann's. Was this before Maddie disappeared or did he come after to help the family? I just wondered why he wasn't considered part of the Tappas 9. Wow about David Payne and Jerry. That could explain alot.

Sorry I don't know if Alexander was there on May 3rd or not, that is a new name to me.
The story about David & Gerry is certainly disturbing in the extreme & could explain a lot! What despicable people!
Murder will out!

colomom
07-24-2008, 11:09 AM
http://proud-of-the-pj.blogspot.com/

Good synopsis of Amaral's book....

daffodil
07-24-2008, 11:53 AM
Hey guys, I can see what is happening here and please don;t take the bate. Make use of the ignore button. Trish, (Site owner) and the moderators have had some tough times lately and they will not be dealing with a lot of bickering. I believe the the rudeness and resent onslaught of a select few is an attempt to get the thread locked. I've seen it happen before. Ignore.


You couldnt be more wrong but do please ignore.

Rhett
07-24-2008, 01:52 PM
I have just read the final report from the PJ. It said that Kate's DNA was on the window sill. I think that Kate accidentally killed her daughter or she believed that she would be blamed for whatever accident befell Madeleine. So, she lifted her daughter out of the window to someone waiting on the outside to dispose of her body. It would be nearly impossible for someone to crawl out the window with the child but it might not be impossible to pass a child through that window. Particulary if the child were immobilized (or dead).

Ciara
07-24-2008, 02:17 PM
I was never really sure or not whether The McCanns harmed Madeleine or not but the presence of the DNA in that report has more or less sealed the deal for me now. I now think they are Guilty:(

Ciara
07-24-2008, 02:24 PM
No evidence she is dead?

Cadaver dogs hitting on the spot where the blood odor dogs hit as well--and DNA traces of Madeleine as well.

Cadaver dogs hitting on the car trunk and keys, Kate's clothes, the toy.

That is not "no evidence" that is simply evidence April, you choose to not accept.

Hi Texana:) Its what you have written above that has finally convinced me of their guilt. I can find no other logical explanation for that stuff. I dont believe for a second that CuddleCat was brought to work with Kate and thats how the scent of dead bodies ended up on it. Thats just SO ridiculous.

Texana
07-24-2008, 06:29 PM
April,

The DNA match was not conclusive to Madeleine but did not rule her out, was my understanding. !5 out of 19 markers that tied to her?

I have been at a seminar all day but I'll go back and re-read the report for a second time to make sure.

Ciara
07-24-2008, 06:37 PM
April,

The DNA match was not conclusive to Madeleine but did not rule her out, was my understanding. !5 out of 19 markers that tied to her?

I have been at a seminar all day but I'll go back and re-read the report for a second time to make sure.
Even without the DNA though....what about the Cadaver dogs:(

twinkiesmom
07-24-2008, 06:42 PM
I read the comments on the proud of the PJ blog....Someone seemed to think Madeleine may have died the night of the 2nd....Was she in the creche on May 3 at all? When was the last time she was sighted by a non Tapas member?

Also wondering if there was any tall furniture in the apartment she might have climbed and fallen? Or could she have gone out the window and hit her head on the stone wall outside?

Barnaby
07-24-2008, 07:08 PM
I have just read the final report from the PJ. It said that Kate's DNA was on the window sill. I think that Kate accidentally killed her daughter or she believed that she would be blamed for whatever accident befell Madeleine. So, she lifted her daughter out of the window to someone waiting on the outside to dispose of her body. It would be nearly impossible for someone to crawl out the window with the child but it might not be impossible to pass a child through that window. Particulary if the child were immobilized (or dead).

That would be very possible Rhett!


I was never really sure or not whether The McCanns harmed Madeleine or not but the presence of the DNA in that report has more or less sealed the deal for me now. I now think they are Guilty:(

Me also, I thought it from the beginning.


Hi Texana:) Its what you have written above that has finally convinced me of their guilt. I can find no other logical explanation for that stuff. I dont believe for a second that CuddleCat was brought to work with Kate and thats how the scent of dead bodies ended up on it. Thats just SO ridiculous.

Totally ridiculous Ciara, in fact laughable, such a pathetic lie!


April,

The DNA match was not conclusive to Madeleine but did not rule her out, was my understanding. !5 out of 19 markers that tied to her?

I have been at a seminar all day but I'll go back and re-read the report for a second time to make sure.

15 is pretty high, so strange that the retest result was different, was the sample interferred with?


Even without the DNA though....what about the Cadaver dogs:(

Exactly! Keela, the blood dog, detected blood on a car in Northern Ireland even after it had been burned - the Attracta Harron murder!

Barnaby
07-24-2008, 07:28 PM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=14 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=14)

Expresso.pt, 24 July 2008, 18h00
http://aeiou.expresso.pt/gen.pl?p=st...stories/375787 (http://aeiou.expresso.pt/gen.pl?p=stories&op=view&fokey=ex.stories/375787)

Copied from: http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com...d=1223&page=19 (http://helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1223&page=19) #280




McCanns sue Gon&#231;alo Amaral

(quickly translated)

Kate and Gerry McCann are going to sue the ex-inspector Gon&#231;alo Amaral, for moral damages relative to the publication of the book "The truth of the Lie, says SIC.

The TV station adds that some Portuguese media will also be sued by Madeleine's parents........................................... ."


Let's all of us make sure we buy the book & tell our friends far & wide to buy it, make sure it makes loads of money, just in case these monsters get money from this genuine man who I believe had the pursuit of justice for Madeleine at heart!

Brilliant 'get rich quick' they have going here! Sad pathetic lowlifes who loved their money so much they couldn't even put up a reward to get their own daughter back, but then of course they knew it was pointless didn't they? If they had a brain between them they would have done it just to deflect suspicion!

Ciara
07-24-2008, 07:47 PM
Thanks for the response and the link Barnaby. Thats very interesting.
The McCanns make it so easy sometimes to dislike them.
Poor Madeleine, I wish she was found.

Texana
07-24-2008, 08:12 PM
I read the comments on the proud of the PJ blog....Someone seemed to think Madeleine may have died the night of the 2nd....Was she in the creche on May 3 at all? When was the last time she was sighted by a non Tapas member?

Also wondering if there was any tall furniture in the apartment she might have climbed and fallen? Or could she have gone out the window and hit her head on the stone wall outside?

The issue of whether she was in the creche or not on May 3rd has been debated many times with different conclusions. Some people feel very strongly she was not present at all on Mary 3. It was not clearly stated in the report that she was seen on May 3 by the daycare workers. That would be an excellent question to ask, maybe one of the most important ones.

She could have fallen on the couch itself and hit her head on a tile floor, in the right place, such that, left unattended, she would have passed away. Falls from that distance are normally not fatal but with the right combination of location/injury/time they can be. My own younger daughter fell from about that distance, at about that age, onto a wooden fort floor, and the doctors definitely did not want to skip giving her an x-ray.

I don't think Madeleine could have opened the shutters on her own and fallen, but it's possible.

She seemed to me to have a personality that would be more likely to get out or try to get out on her own--based on Kate's "giving them her tuppence's worth" comment.

Texana
07-24-2008, 08:15 PM
Oh, and good luck with that suing Amaral.

The McCanns admit themselves they left their children alone more than one night.

Clarence has been getting over confident in his ability to squash the truth.

twinkiesmom
07-24-2008, 08:26 PM
The issue of whether she was in the creche or not on May 3rd has been debated many times with different conclusions. Some people feel very strongly she was not present at all on Mary 3. It was not clearly stated in the report that she was seen on May 3 by the daycare workers. That would be an excellent question to ask, maybe one of the most important ones.

She could have fallen on the couch itself and hit her head on a tile floor, in the right place, such that, left unattended, she would have passed away. Falls from that distance are normally not fatal but with the right combination of location/injury/time they can be. My own younger daughter fell from about that distance, at about that age, onto a wooden fort floor, and the doctors definitely did not want to skip giving her an x-ray.

I don't think Madeleine could have opened the shutters on her own and fallen, but it's possible.

She seemed to me to have a personality that would be more likely to get out or try to get out on her own--based on Kate's "giving them her tuppence's worth" comment.


It also dawned on me she might have pulled an item of furniture down on herself and been crushed/suffocated.....It seems to me that vacation condos are not always childproofed, nor do they normally have the same quality of furniture you would buy for yourself.

There was blood by the wardrobe....could she have pulled that down on herself?

Texana
07-24-2008, 08:52 PM
It also dawned on me she might have pulled an item of furniture down on herself and been crushed/suffocated.....It seems to me that vacation condos are not always childproofed, nor do they normally have the same quality of furniture you would buy for yourself.

There was blood by the wardrobe....could she have pulled that down on herself?

Possibly, but not probably, unless there was a television inside and it became unbalanced, or she pulled out a drawer and tried to use it as a step stool. (common injury for children.)

I think the most likely scenario is climbing on the sofa and falling, in an effort to reach the window and call her parents. Kate and Gerry may very well have told her "we're very close, we will hear you."

We have never heard them say what they told the twins and Madeleine when they left, if they were still awake. Nor have we ever heard whether or not all children were actually sleeping.

Barnaby
07-25-2008, 10:12 AM
McCanns’ detectives investigated


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=14 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53176&page=14)


WOW! Thanks for posting Colomon!

Piglitsmum
07-25-2008, 11:23 AM
I skim read most of that - very interesting - Much of what is revealed, e.g. the information about Dave, has not appeared in the British media, to my knowledge - very interesting, and probably quite telling... Thank you for posting! :clap:

Texana
07-25-2008, 09:45 PM
I skim read most of that - very interesting - Much of what is revealed, e.g. the information about Dave, has not appeared in the British media, to my knowledge - very interesting, and probably quite telling... Thank you for posting! :clap:

It's not going to appear anytime soon, either. Clarence Mitchell has that locked down. You'll see that the McCanns are suing but you won't see what it's in the book--and I bet the report won't appear, either.

Ciara
07-25-2008, 09:59 PM
They shouldnt be allowed to lock anything down and The McCanns have got some nerve sueing anyone

april4sky
07-25-2008, 11:23 PM
April,

The DNA match was not conclusive to Madeleine but did not rule her out, was my understanding. !5 out of 19 markers that tied to her?

I have been at a seminar all day but I'll go back and re-read the report for a second time to make sure.Texana do you remember this little gem?......

Madeleine McCann: ‘hair found in car’

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:swh73QagGE4J:www.liverpoolecho.co.u k/liverpool-news/local-news/2007/09/12/madeleine-mccann-hair-found-in-car-100252-19779390/+Madeleine%27s+hair+found+in+car&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=au (http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:swh73QagGE4J:www.liverpoolecho.co.u k/liverpool-news/local-news/2007/09/12/madeleine-mccann-hair-found-in-car-100252-19779390/+Madeleine&#37;27s+hair+found+in+car&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=au)

But police sources in Portugal claimed the find of hair was “significant” and could not have come from her clothing or belongings.
***********

Madeleines and the rest of the families belongings were in the apartment and the car….so it would be very strange if Madeleines DNA wasn’t!!
And after tests on the hair claimed to have been found in the car, "or was this nothing more another PJ smear," the PJ would know if it had come from a live or dead body….According to forensic pathologist Dr Michael Baden.

MOST TELLING!!!....The PJ still included abduction amongst their theories!!!

Salem
07-27-2008, 02:29 PM
Hey - did everybody know that in the Justice forum, there is a thread on Maddie? I when there when I was waiting for WS to come back up yesterday. I didn't read much, but found it interesting that there was another forum, linked to this one, going on.

Salem

Texana
07-27-2008, 03:20 PM
Excellent point, April, thank you for bringing it up.

The FSS (Forensic Science Service in G. Britain) lacks the ability to discern whether a hair sample is from a living or dead person. They refused to send the sample to a European lab which did have that capability.

Testing on the hair sample stalled at the point of identification, with the Portuguese asking to send the sample to the European lab and the British authorities refusing.

If the DNA could not be matched completely, wouldn't it still be relevant to know whether or not the hair sample was from a living or dead person? With one missing child, it would seem important to know whether or not a hair came from a living or dead person when found in the trunk of a car--unless one supposes that corpses are regularly transported about resorts by tourists in rental cars.

So the question as to whether the hair sample was from a living or dead person hasn't been answered, and can't be answered by the FSS, who still retain control of it all the same.

colomom
07-27-2008, 03:37 PM
Excellent point, April, thank you for bringing it up.

The FSS (Forensic Science Service in G. Britain) lacks the ability to discern whether a hair sample is from a living or dead person. They refused to send the sample to a European lab which did have that capability.

Testing on the hair sample stalled at the point of identification, with the Portuguese asking to send the sample to the European lab and the British authorities refusing.

If the DNA could not be matched completely, wouldn't it still be relevant to know whether or not the hair sample was from a living or dead person? With one missing child, it would seem important to know whether or not a hair came from a living or dead person when found in the trunk of a car--unless one supposes that corpses are regularly transported about resorts by tourists in rental cars.

So the question as to whether the hair sample was from a living or dead person hasn't been answered, and can't be answered by the FSS, who still retain control of it all the same.

And this from the best forensics lab in the world....yea, riiiiiight. :rolleyes:

It stinks.

Texana
07-27-2008, 03:39 PM
Perhaps some of our British posters/WS members can make a day trip to the FSS lab and ask in person what's going on.

Everything is Great Britain is so picturesque anyway. It might make for a lovely day trip.

Texana
07-27-2008, 05:08 PM
Thanks, Colomom for the link today in Portuguese Press thread.

According to Kate's own notes, the arrangement was to receive positive press from the British media, in return for exclusive photo shoot arrangements.

"Concerning the editor of the ‘Sun’ newspaper, on the 11th of July Kate was assured that there would be no “adverse publicity”: “She was really nice. Perfect solution”, Maddie’s mother noted."

The amount of time, effort, energy and thought that went into coordinating the media campaign is astounding to me. It was always evident, but I never realized to what extent the McCanns were active and willing directors, not just participants.

There is so much focus on the media campaign and so little talk in Kate's notes about actual efforts to find Madeleine. She notes she refuses early on to talk to Portuguese reporters--why would you stop talking to the people who communicate in the country your child disappeared in? Why would you literally stop talking to the people you should be making your first, best allies?

Why were the British media so important?

And why, as always, was Madeleine so unimportant that from the beginning, the focus is on a media campaign featuring her parents--shots of them with the twins--etc, etc.

Why would any parent with one supposedly abducted child agree to a photo shoot with the other two? Talk about the old "let's focus on Madeleine."

:scream:

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-27-2008, 05:25 PM
Thanks, Colomom for the link today in Portuguese Press thread. ...snip


Why would any parent with one supposedly abducted child agree to a photo shoot with the other two? Talk about the old "let's focus on Madeleine."

:scream:
Very odd indeed. If you were mugged and robbed while wearing a priceless diamond necklace, would you have the nerve to feature the matching diamond earrings in a media photo shoot? It's like saying..."HEY, Looky what else I have, you forgot these!"

Texana
07-27-2008, 05:57 PM
Very odd indeed. If you were mugged and robbed while wearing a priceless diamond necklace, would you have the nerve to feature the matching diamond earrings in a media photo shoot? It's like saying..."HEY, Looky what else I have, you forgot these!"

Exactly. And why feature the twins at all? Who cares what they look like? Some people might be actually turned off and not "look" for Madeleine--with the happy family shown in the photos!

They were clearly controlling the media and calling the shots, with first Justine and then Clarence organizing and controlling access as well.

All they had to do was say NO. No photos of the twins, but here are some photos of Madeleine...Remember how long it took to get a current photo of Maddie? It wasn't immediate, was it?

april4sky
07-27-2008, 11:01 PM
Excellent point, April, thank you for bringing it up.

The FSS (Forensic Science Service in G. Britain) lacks the ability to discern whether a hair sample is from a living or dead person. They refused to send the sample to a European lab which did have that capability.

I don't think so. :)
Did you get this little gem via the PJ?

The FSS is renowned as one of the best in the world.

Interesting that besides the McCanns, their friends, Mitchell, before him McGuinnes, the UK police, the UK government. the Press, "even though they were sued by the McCanns", many of the witnesses, and now we have the FSS in Birmingham being smeared. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
There are probably more but I haven't yet seen all the PJ's report. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I think this shows the conspiracy theorists have lost the plot.

Texana
07-27-2008, 11:41 PM
I don't think so. :)
Did you get this little gem via the PJ?

The FSS is renowned as one of the best in the world.



Yes, it's an excellent crime lab, and the PJ was being quite correct in acknowledging that

However, they don't have the ability to tell whether or not a hair sample is a from living or dead person. You can be really excellent overall and still lack some specialized capacity. Who knows why they don't perform that test? Could be the administrators of the lab don't agree it's a valid test. Could require some specialized training and expensive equipment they don't think justifies the test itself--after all, most of the time you have either a corpse or a living person. So do you invest in some specialized equipment that gets used once a year, or do you buy more equipment for the routine DNA and other tests that mean trials don't get backed up waiting for your analyses?

That's not a smear, that's just a fact of budgets and serving the public. It doesn't make the lab any less excellent if they don't perform every test on the planet. It just is what it is.

Which brings us back to the main point, and again, you did an excellent job in bringing this point to the forefront:

The hair sample hasn't been tested as to whether or not it came from a living or dead person. The hair sample still resides with FSS, and identification as to whether it came from Madeleine or not appears to have been stalled.

( I say appears because to the best of my knowledge, they did not release official results of testing the hair or any conclusions from their tests.)

april4sky
07-27-2008, 11:56 PM
Yes, it's an excellent crime lab, and the PJ was being quite correct in acknowledging that

However, they don't have the ability to tell whether or not a hair sample is a from living or dead person. You can be really excellent overall and still lack some specialized capacity. Who knows why they don't perform that test? Could be the administrators of the lab don't agree it's a valid test. Could require some specialized training and expensive equipment they don't think justifies the test itself--after all, most of the time you have either a corpse or a living person. So do you invest in some specialized equipment that gets used once a year, or do you buy more equipment for the routine DNA and other tests that mean trials don't get backed up waiting for your analyses?

That's not a smear, that's just a fact of budgets and serving the public. It doesn't make the lab any less excellent if they don't perform every test on the planet. It just is what it is.

Which brings us back to the main point, and again, you did an excellent job in bringing this point to the forefront:

The hair sample hasn't been tested as to whether or not it came from a living or dead person. The hair sample still resides with FSS, and identification as to whether it came from Madeleine or not appears to have been stalled.

( I say appears because to the best of my knowledge, they did not release official results of testing the hair or any conclusions from their tests.)I still don't know where the claim, "which I don't accept", came from that the FSS refused to send hair samples to a European lab!!

The reason the samples were sent to the FSS in Birmingham was because of it's very high reputation.
Why do you think the PJ sent the hair sample there if they were not equipped to test it?
Didn't they know?
Do you think the FSS wouldn't have told them this important "fact"??

I believe it was reported early on that samples were also sent to a Portuguese lab.:waitasec:

colomom
07-28-2008, 09:33 AM
Madeleine McCann: Reversed Investigation

Talking with Pinto da Costa – Forensic Medicine Expert

Reversed Investigation

In the book ‘The Truth of The Lie’ Gon&#231;alo Amaral, the PJ coordinator who was removed from the ‘Maddie Case’ has no doubts about the death of the girl. Pinto da Costa follows his considerations.

Specialist in Forensic Medicine, Pinto da Costa supports the thesis followed by Gon&#231;alo Amaral, which points to the death of Madeleine McCann. The professor does not understand the reason why the analyses done by the British laboratory are not conclusive and he manifests the conviction that, soon or later, the truth will be known. The biggest problem, according to the President of the Portuguese Section of International Transparency [sic], resided in the incorrect way the investigation was carried out. Pinto da Costa understands that the death hypothesis should have been pursued since the beginning.

Do you believe in the thesis defended by Gon&#231;alo Amaral, according to which Madeleine McCann died accidentally in the night of her disappearance?

It does seem possible that that has taken place based on the circumstances of the cadaver dogs who signalled [death triggers] the existence of a cadaver and, also of blood with the genetic profile of the girl.

The English Laboratory said the analyses are not conclusive...

What the Laboratory concluded was that, in a total of 19 alleles [genetic markers], 15 are present in the sample examined. In Portugal, in order to guarantee the authenticity of progeny [descendants, children], that is, in the paternity tests we use 15 alleles. Therefore, the results obtained by the British Laboratory are extremely significant. Thus, they seem, pertinent in the consideration that the child could have died in the apartment. Another hypothesis is that she could have died outside and then the body was moved inside [the apartment].

Isn’t there, in Portugal, technical capacity to do this kind of analyses?

Yes, they could have been done in Portugal. I believe that either the Scientific Police Laboratory of the Judiciary Police or the various Forensic Medicine Institutes have the conditions to perform them. That did not happen possibly for the reason that the persons at issue were of English nationality.

~snip~

Source: Jornal de Not&#237;cias, paper edition - 26 July 2008
(http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2424244&postcount=357)

From Goncalo Amaral's book:

on page 183 (chapter 19), a "failure" from the FSS is mentioned: the analyses on the hair samples are missing. Stuart Prior contacts the FSS on the PJ's request. The analyses had not been done yet. The PJ does not only want to know whether the hair belongs to M - above everything else, they want to knwo whether they came from a living or a dead person. The FSS is in no condition to reply to the latter; only to the former. English colleagues who are present at the meeting, raise the possibility of sending the hair to a European lab that is able to clarify the issue: hair from a living or a dead person. The FSS is not prepared to let go of the hair samples. They inform the PJ, via Stuart Prior, that a process of comparison of hair colour would establish whether the hair belonged to M. The next step would be to identify the DNA - which never happened.

From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2346954&postcount=306

The existence of Madeleine's hairs in the boot of the car rented by the parents three weeks after the crime, near the substitute tyre, it’s considered as highly probable by the PJ. But the investigation was not able to prove that those traces belonged to the child: the hairs have no root ends, the CM established, and the final report of the laboratory of Birmingham – of the DNA mitochondrial tests - only guarantee that someone of Kate's lineage was inside the boot of the car.

april4sky
07-28-2008, 10:35 AM
Talking with Pinto da Costa – Forensic Medicine Expert
The professor does not understand the reason why the analyses done by the British laboratory are not conclusive

From Goncalo Amaral's book:

on page 183 (chapter 19), a "failure" from the FSS is mentioned: the analyses on the hair samples are missing. Stuart Prior contacts the FSS on the PJ's request. The analyses had not been done yet. The PJ does not only want to know whether the hair belongs to M - above everything else, they want to knwo whether they came from a living or a dead person. The FSS is in no condition to reply to the latter; only to the former. English colleagues who are present at the meeting, raise the possibility of sending the hair to a European lab that is able to clarify the issue: hair from a living or a dead person. The FSS is not prepared to let go of the hair samples. They inform the PJ, via Stuart Prior, that a process of comparison of hair colour would establish whether the hair belonged to M. The next step would be to identify the DNA - which never happened.

That explains it :rolleyes: the claim that the FSS refused to hand over the hair samples came from Goncalo Amaral's book :waitasec: :eek:

The disgraced cop who was removed from the investigation and who is also on criminal charges regarding another case.

Is this claim also in the PJ's final report???

As for Pinto da Costa not understanding why the analyses done by the British laboratory were inconclusive......
.....Well if he had been asked to do the tests maybe he would understand. :waitasec:

april4sky
07-28-2008, 10:52 AM
From the PJ’s report…..

“Is there Maddie’s DNA?”

An English expert said that DNA that is identical to Maddie McCann’s could have been a "HAZARD"…….

....."Not sure what is meant by "HAZARD"…I seriously doubt the Engish expert used this particular word.".......

.....The comparison of the results from a biological residue and the determination that it is effectively DNA from a specific person is very far from being an exact science. Complementing the report from the English lab where the residues that were found by the dogs were sent to, the forensics expert sent the Pol&#237;cia Judici&#225;ria an email where he guaranteed that the conclusion about the traces that had been collected from the car boot was complex. “Is there Maddie’s DNA?” the expert asked, then replying that there was no single answer. This means that, while it is true that 15 of the 19 markers corresponded to the English child (which allows for a high probability), it is also true that the individual components in Madeleine’s profile were not uniquely hers. And he explained: “It is important to underline that 50 percent of Madeleine’s profile is shared by each parent”.

That is where the doubt lies. As the genetic profiles of the relatives could not be separated, it had to be admitted – even if only theoretically or due to “hazard” – that the match was a symbiosis of residues from the mother and the father.

John Lowe, forensics expert, further adds that several questions would always remain unanswered. Namely to know when and how the DNA was deposited, from which type of bodily fluids it came from and whether or not a crime had been committed.

It is further worth mentioning that those residues had been collected from the rental that was rented after Maddie’s disappearance – which makes it impossible for the child to have been riding the vehicle. The report from the English lab says that it is not possible to demonstrate that the collected residues belong to Kate and Gerry, but it then adds that it is not possible to prove the contrary, either.
**********
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/210755.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/210755.html)

And so, for the record, this is where we stand on the supposed evidence against Kate and Gerry McCann.There was never any DNA "proof" that Madeleine's body had been in the couple's hire car - forensics experts have always argued for caution in interpreting sniffer dogs' reactions.
An American court case ruled this kind of evidence inadmissable last year after finding that three supposedly "specialist" dogs were incorrect between 62&#37; and 78% of the time.
*******
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-20662935/ (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/07/23/dossier-reveals-kate-and-gerry-mccann-made-suspects-on-flimsiest-of-evidence-115875-20662935/)

The report by the Policia Judiciaria - Portugal's CID - claimed a cadaver dog detected a "scent of death" in the family's apartment, on clothes belonging to Kate and Madeleine, on her Cuddle Cat toy and on the key fob of the Renault Scenic rented 24 days after she vanished.
Preliminary tests on DNA from the hire car suggested a possible match with Madeleine, but final results could not match to a particular person - or even establish whether it was blood or another type of body fluid.
*****
It should be considered when reading the report that it was written by the PJ!!

While they had to include some “facts,”…..because they might have had to defend these in court!!.....They can and have excluded others, especially about themselves!!
From what I have read of the report they have certainly protected themselves…..as demonstrated here in their report……..

“On the other hand, it should be referred that this investigation moved itself under conditions of exceptional media exposure, with the publication of many “news” of imprecise, inexact or even false contents, which did not help, in the least, the discovery of the truth and created, many times, a climate of unusual commotion and of lack of serenity”.

…..Predictably they failed to take credit for being the ones who leaked the imprecise, inexact and false contents!!!.....Now there’s a surprise!!
While admitting this did not help in the discovery of the truth!!
Geeez…they are certainly on the ball these cops!!!

And abuction is still amongst their theories!!!

colomom
07-28-2008, 12:22 PM
We have already concluded that the DNA (bodily fluids/blood) could not be absolutely determined to have come from Madeleine. The DNA test only proved that the fluids came from someone of Kate's lineage (that rules out Gerry).

The hair found in the boot with the fluids is a vital clue. I would think that everything should be done to complete testing to determine if the hair came from a deceased person. If it was confirmed, and Kate and the twins are very much alive....well, there is only one conclusion. If the FSS is unable to conduct the test they should send the samples to someone who can.

Quoting the PJ's final report and badmouthing them in the same post is confusing.

Eddie and Keela have never had a single false positive in over 200 cases!

I prefer to base my evaluation of Goncalo Amaral's character on the following:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2381838&postcount=286

A view of the entire picture yields a much different result than looking at each aspect individually.

april4sky
07-28-2008, 12:56 PM
We have already concluded that the DNA (bodily fluids/blood) could not be absolutely determined to have come from Madeleine. The DNA test only proved that the fluids came from someone of Kate's lineage (that rules out Gerry).

The hair found in the boot with the fluids is a vital clue. I would think that everything should be done to complete testing to determine if the hair came from a deceased person. If it was confirmed, and Kate and the twins are very much alive....well, there is only one conclusion. If the FSS is unable to conduct the test they should send the samples to someone who can.

Quoting the PJ's final report and badmouthing them in the same post is confusing.

Eddie and Keela have never had a single false positive in over 200 cases!

I prefer to base my evaluation of Goncalo Amaral's character on the following:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2381838&postcount=286

A view of the entire picture yields a much different result than looking at each aspect individually.Don't know why you would be confused Colomom. I did say they had to include some "facts".....

"While they had to include some “facts,”…..because they might have had to defend these in court!!" ....
.....They can and have excluded others, especially about themselves!!
From what I have read of the report they have certainly protected themselves…..as demonstrated here in their report……..

“On the other hand, it should be referred that this investigation moved itself under conditions of exceptional media exposure, with the publication of many “news” of imprecise, inexact or even false contents, which did not help, in the least, the discovery of the truth and created, many times, a climate of unusual commotion and of lack of serenity”.

…..Predictably they failed to take credit for being the ones who leaked the imprecise, inexact and false contents!!! :waitasec:
While admitting this did not help in the discovery of the truth!! :waitasec:

The report also said...
it is not possible to demonstrate that the collected residues belong to Kate and Gerry, but it then adds that it is not possible to prove the contrary, either.

I had read the article regarding Goncalo Amaral brought over from the 3 arguidos.:waitasec:
I wasn't at all impressed, especially when I noticed all quotes from "friends" were named "Anonymous." :rolleyes:

As for the dogs there is no evidence that they alerted to Madeleine!!

colomom
07-28-2008, 01:15 PM
Picture....bigger.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Boy the McCanns are busy people these days. I guess as long as they are suing someone, they don't dwell on the fact that their baby is being molested repeatedly by a paedophile. Planing their talk show circuit tour to slam the PJ is probably much less daunting than thinking about what could be happening to their poor sweet baby girl.

Texana
07-28-2008, 05:50 PM
So, bottom line: Hair sample is still with FSS. Results of any tests on the hair sample, not released. No official nothing on the hair sample.

april4sky
07-28-2008, 10:16 PM
Picture....bigger.
Don't forget to include the PJ's leaks that led to the exceptional media exposure, with the publication of many “news” of imprecise, inexact or even false contents, which did not help, in the least, the discovery of the truth and created, many times, a climate of unusual commotion and of lack of serenity”.
******
I bet the PJ chuckled when they included this in their report!!!

colomom
07-29-2008, 11:19 AM
http://www.the-news.net/

Ex-Maddie cop - “She died in apartment”
26/7/2008

Gon&#231;alo Amaral, who was removed as chief investigator into the case of Madeleine McCann after lashing out at her parents, has this week launched an explosive book in which he makes a number of controversial statements, saying the toddler died in the apartment on the night she was reported missing. In the book, which has been read by the The Portugal News after it was received in Lisbon on Wednesday morning, almost 36 hours before its publication, Gon&#231;alo Amaral accuses Kate and Gerry McCann of possibly having concealed Madeleine’s body after she died in what he believes was the result of a “tragic accident”. In a separate development, the chief of the the National Director of police has this week vowed to “search to the ends of the Earth” to find the missing girl.

The book is entitled, “Maddie – a verdade da mentira”, or “The Truth of the Lie”, and is promising to be a best-seller here in Portugal, following the enormous coverage it has received by the media here the past few days.

Over 200 pages, the former chief inspector, who resigned in June to unveil the “facts of the investigation”, gives his version of the events, especially the initial stages of the investigation.

These latest revelations come as a fresh blow to the McCanns, who learnt on Monday that Portuguese authorities had closed the investigation and lifted their status as arguidos or persons of interest.

<continues>

SleuthMom
07-30-2008, 12:15 AM
Don't know why you would be confused Colomom. I did say they had to include some "facts".....

And let me guess, you pick and choose which ones are fact and which ones you think they are not. :rolleyes: Interesting.

april4sky
07-30-2008, 04:40 AM
And let me guess, you pick and choose which ones are fact and which ones you think they are not. :rolleyes: Interesting.

No don't guess Sleithmom. :waitasec:
Thats what the PJ did, :rolleyes: and look where that got them. :rolleyes:

fran
07-30-2008, 09:28 AM
Ok, I have NOT followed this case closely, well hardly at all, actually. Other than a short clip here and there, I'm not too familiar with this situation. But I would like to make one statement with regard to this new book being released.

FWIW, don't take it as gospel. Just because it's in print, does NOT mean it's the truth. IF it were in fact truth, the parents would have been arrested. That they don't have sufficient proof or whatever, is BS, double talk, whatever.

I expect to see a nice law suit come out about this, or this book be blocked from being sold. IF it's already being sold, the earlier will apply, lawsuit.

We've seen this same BS, IMHO, come out about the Natalee Holloway case. You have an area that relies heavily on tourism, they will do ANYTHING to cover-up crime or make it appear their LE aren't incompetent and doing EVERYTHING to solve the case. Oh, and of COURSE blame the victim's FAMILY.

Yeah, they're trying to do that even with the Holloway case, blame the family for their daughter's disappearance. In that case, eventhough the family was thousands of miles away and didn't arrive on the island until 24 hours after the fact, they've managed to come up, (took them 3 years and even used blogger's theories) of HOW it was a 'conspiracy' of the family and it was the VICTIM'S fault. Doesn't matter that the three who were last seen with her are still lying to this day, (their stories don't match), the excuse for NOT arresting them is they've lied so much, the judges don't know which story to believe. :rolleyes:

From what I've seen in this case, I do feel the parents were neglectful by leaving those three small children alone in that room at night. As far as an intruder goes, I have no opinion one way or the other.

Happy sleuthing,
This was JMHO,
:)
fran

SleuthMom
07-30-2008, 10:58 AM
No don't guess Sleithmom. :waitasec:
Thats what the PJ did, :rolleyes: and look where that got them. :rolleyes:

Nice try but you did not answer. For one side you talk bad things about the PJ and their report and then you quote from them when is convenient to you. So do you pick and choose what is "fact" in that report?

april4sky
07-30-2008, 12:25 PM
Nice try but you did not answer. For one side you talk bad things about the PJ and their report and then you quote from them when is convenient to you. So do you pick and choose what is "fact" in that report?SleuthMom you didn't ask a question. :rolleyes: You were critisizing/accusing me. :rolleyes: wrongly!!

In my post I said the following....truthfully!!

While they had to include some “facts,”…..because they might have had to defend these in court!!.....They can and have excluded others, especially about themselves!!
From what I have read of the report they have certainly protected themselves…..as demonstrated here in their report……..

“On the other hand, it should be referred that this investigation moved itself under conditions of exceptional media exposure, with the publication of many “news” of imprecise, inexact or even false contents, which did not help, in the least, the discovery of the truth and created, many times, a climate of unusual commotion and of lack of serenity”.

…..Predictably they failed to take credit for being the ones who leaked the imprecise, inexact and false contents!!!
While admitting this did not help in the discovery of the truth!!
******

If you see nothing wrong with the spin the PJ put in their report about the false leaks...while not take responsibility for those leaks......
...Well that's your choice and your problem!!

SleuthMom did you really expect me to say the whole report was a lie?

If so i'm sorry to disappoint you but I have only ever been interested in the truth.
Which is why I never bought into all the nasty rumours and lies that sounded more ridiculous by the day!!

The PJ can continue to spin all they want but the result tells us the truth about their lies.

Texana
07-30-2008, 08:01 PM
April, I had a dream where you said just what you did about only being interested in the truth...and you were about to talk about why the McCanns have lied as well...

And then I woke up, doggone it, and here we are back to the same old same old.

Seriously, if we're going to paint the PJ/Portuguese as liars, we must also confront the fact that the McCanns also stretched the truth. Why? Because they were fearful of being punished when they were innocent? Because they truly did not think that anyone would believe the truth?

Or because they were attempting to cover their own tracks and distract the police?

We can start with the incident where Mrs. Fenn reported that Maddie was crying for over an hour, but the McCanns told the PJ their regular routine was to check on the children every thirty minutes.

One of them is lying, either on purpose, or incompetence. Which one?

april4sky
07-30-2008, 11:27 PM
April, I had a dream where you said just what you did about only being interested in the truth...and you were about to talk about why the McCanns have lied as well...

And then I woke up, doggone it, and here we are back to the same old same old.

Seriously, if we're going to paint the PJ/Portuguese as liars, we must also confront the fact that the McCanns also stretched the truth. Why? Because they were fearful of being punished when they were innocent? Because they truly did not think that anyone would believe the truth?

Or because they were attempting to cover their own tracks and distract the police?

We can start with the incident where Mrs. Fenn reported that Maddie was crying for over an hour, but the McCanns told the PJ their regular routine was to check on the children every thirty minutes.

One of them is lying, either on purpose, or incompetence. Which one?Texana we have been over Mrs Fenn. And while there may well be inconsistancies between some statemants none of us yet know the truth of those. :waitasec:

And none of what you are claiming comes close to being evidence that the McCanns harmed their child.

And WHY?? do you think abduction is still one of the options...and that according to the PJ!!!

Texana it's nice to know that you are waking up if you are now recognising the PJ's lies...and incompetance.
....It would be refreshing as I have yet to see the anti McCanns do that.

And for a true BIG PICTURE you need to do that.

Ciara
07-30-2008, 11:57 PM
I am not as informed on details as some in this thread even though I have forgotten more than I have read on this case since it began.

I do know this though......I am in the UK and if the McCanns had been Mr and Mrs Joe Average there is just no way they would have gotten all the help and attention they got from this Government of ours. Its one of the things that have annoyed me most about this case.

The way these two got all that special treatment has been annoying to me especially the audience with The Pope. Not only did I think they did not deserve that but also that they were hypocritical for doing it. I also wonder what made them more deserving of it than any other parent whose child has gone missing.

For the longest time I was not totally convinced of their guilt but I just cant ignore that most of what evidence there is points to them and one thing I have no doubt over and thats the fact that I think Jane Tanner is a liar. I dont believe she ever saw a man carrying a child.

I think she made that up to either cover up what happened or because she believed The McCanns were innocent and wanted to "help" them out.

Salem
07-31-2008, 02:05 AM
This is OFF TOPIC - I'm sorry to interrupt the good discussion going on, but I just wanted to share that the United States has its own Maddie investigation going on right now in the case of Caylee Anthony. The media, the spin and the neglectful parent.

Here, in our great country though, the parent is in jail with a $500,000 bond.

The McCanns should be quite happy they did not vacation in the US when they decided to leave those defenseless children alone.

You may now go back to your regulary scheduled typing :)

Salem

Ciara
07-31-2008, 02:21 AM
I am following Caylee's case too Salem. There are so many people posting there though that I just read instead. They need to keep that Casey right where she is.

In the case of The McCanns its not what you know its WHO you know that kept them out of jail.

april4sky
07-31-2008, 02:39 AM
This is OFF TOPIC - I'm sorry to interrupt the good discussion going on, but I just wanted to share that the United States has its own Maddie investigation going on right now in the case of Caylee Anthony. The media, the spin and the neglectful parent.

Here, in our great country though, the parent is in jail with a $500,000 bond.

The McCanns should be quite happy they did not vacation in the US when they decided to leave those defenseless children alone.

You may now go back to your regulary scheduled typing :)

SalemSorry Salem but the only similarity is that a child is missing IMO.

And thank God the PJ are not investigating Caylee's disapearance. :clap:

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-31-2008, 10:04 AM
Sorry Salem but the only similarity is that a child is missing IMO.

And thank God the PJ are not investigating Caylee's disapearance. :clap:

So what is your take on the cadaver odor detected by dogs in Casey's (Caylee's mother) trunk? You state the only similarity between these 2 little girls is a missing child, so do you think the dogs were correct in Caylee's case? I would love to know your feelings on this...interesting.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-31-2008, 10:14 AM
From: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2433152&postcount=364
Thanks Colomom



Kate’s notes:

“Frustration with a police employee: asking me where my little Madeleine might be…” May 14

“Very upsetting. If the authorities had acted swiftly, we would now hold this potentially important information. She deserves better. We need everyone involved to give their best” June 12

“How does anyone dare to insinuate that our daughter’s life may be in danger because of us?” June 17



You have got to be freaking kidding me. Hellooooo Kate, are you in la...la land again? Been hitting the hooch pretty hard it appears. You left your babies ALONE...YES YOU and that arrogant P***y whipped husband of yours are responsible for the fact that Madeleine's life is/was in danger...

My nine year old son has more remorse over a dead toad than Kate and Gerry combined for their missing DAUGHTER. I'm serious. What is so sad and shocking is that the world is full of people like the McCanns. They'll defend one another until the end of time...sick

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 10:16 AM
So what is your take on the cadaver odor detected by dogs in Casey's (Caylee's mother) trunk? You state the ONLY similarity between these 2 little girls is a missing child, so I am assumeing you think the dogs were correct in Caylee's case? I would love to know your feelings on this...interesting.

I don't know why you bother to ask that, like if we don't know what the answer will be. April have clearly stated there are some truths on the report from PJ but she is the one who chooses and picks what is fact and what isn't, so convenient.:rolleyes:

And by the way April, just because some of us think the parents are guilty doesn't make us Anti-Mc Canns as I don't think your position in believing they are innocent makes you pro-Mc Cann, unless you personally do and admit it of course.

colomom
07-31-2008, 10:38 AM
Sorry Salem but the only similarity is that a child is missing IMO.

And thank God the PJ are not investigating Caylee's disapearance. :clap:

I don't want to be banned so, I will bite my tongue.

1. Very close in age and in appearance.

2. Middle class white family.

3. Cadaver dogs hit at house and in car.

4. Dirt found in car so LE thought body may have been moved.

5. Cadaver scent explained as coming from rotten food (pizza, with maggots!).

6. No evidence of an abduction.

7. Conflicting stories and timelines.

8. Mother shows lack of emotion and even smiles.

It would probably be better if the PJ was investigating because the local LE in Orange County (Orlando) Florida have an abysmal record of solving crimes. I believe that I read only 1 in 6 cases solved.

People should not comment on that which they no nothing about, obviously.

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 10:40 AM
1. Very close in age and in appearance.

2. Middle class white family.

3. Cadaver dogs hit at house and in car.

4. Dirt found in car so LE thought body may have been moved.

5. Cadaver scent explained as coming from rotten food (pizza, with maggots!).

6. No evidence of an abduction.

7. Conflicting stories and timelines.

8. Mother shows lack of emotion and even smiles.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

april4sky
07-31-2008, 10:52 AM
So what is your take on the cadaver odor detected by dogs in Casey's (Caylee's mother) trunk? You state the only similarity between these 2 little girls is a missing child, so do you think the dogs were correct in Caylee's case? I would love to know your feelings on this...interesting.
IW I thought you had me on ignore. :waitasec:

I don't agree with Salem regarding similarities with the McCanns. The fact they have been cleared supports that. NO evidence!!! And abduction is still one of the PJ's theories!!
Every case is different...though all are equally heartbreaking.

As for little Caylee I fully agree with Salem.

I believe Casey is a compulsive liar and the police have proof of that.
There is no excuse for not reporting her daughter missing, in fact it was the grandmother who finally did that.
And the grandmother saying the car smelt as though a dead body had been inside...is a big clue.
It will be interesting to hear the DNA results.

It's not sounding good but I do hope the smell wasn't from Caylee and that they find that precious little girl safe.

Ciara
07-31-2008, 11:05 AM
I disagree that there is no evidence pointing towards the McCanns. In fact, I think what evidence there is, points directly towards them.

april4sky
07-31-2008, 11:36 AM
I don't want to be banned so, I will bite my tongue.Neither do I.:)


1. Very close in age and in appearance.
And your point? Why would you think this is relevant?

2. Middle class white family.
So? Point? Relevance?

3. Cadaver dogs hit at house and in car.NO DNA evidence to Madeleine!! Which is why abduction is still on the table.


4. Dirt found in car so LE thought body may have been moved.
LE thought :waitasec: So it must be true then. :rolleyes:

5. Cadaver scent explained as coming from rotten food (pizza, with maggots!).
So!!..Anyone asked and not knowing could have wondered the same!!

6. No evidence of an abduction.
NO evidence there wasn't...Abduction is still on the table!! And the PJ failed to secure the crime scene so evidence of an abduction could have been lost!!

7. Conflicting stories and timelines.
Inconsistancies are normal. It would be abnormal if they were synchronized!!

8. Mother shows lack of emotion and even smiles.
She has shown emotion IMO. But geez Colomom she smiles. :waitasec:

It would probably be better if the PJ was investigating because the local LE in Orange County (Orlando) Florida have an abysmal record of solving crimes. I believe that I read only 1 in 6 cases solved.I doubt that Salem would agree with you!! I hope to God they are better that the cops on Madeleines case!!

People should not comment on that which they no nothing about, obviously.Obviously.:)

april4sky
07-31-2008, 11:48 AM
And by the way April, just because some of us think the parents are guilty doesn't make us Anti-Mc Canns as I don't think your position in believing they are innocent makes you pro-Mc Cann, unless you personally do and admit it of course.I have no problem admitting I am pro-McCann SleuthMom.
I believe they have told the truth about Madeleines disappearence.
And I think the smears and lies have been nothing short of wicked on a couple whose child is missing.
And the truth of the lies is in the conclusion of the PJ's report.

Salem
07-31-2008, 11:54 AM
Sorry Salem but the only similarity is that a child is missing IMO.

And thank God the PJ are not investigating Caylee's disapearance. :clap:

I respectfully disagree April. The similarity is the neglectful behavior of the parents. Yes, some of the facts are different, however the neglectful behavior is the same. In Maddie's case she was left alone to fend for herself and her siblings. In Caylee's case, she was apparently given to some person who existence can not be established. No matter how you look at it, both children were abandoned by their parents.

Salem

colomom
07-31-2008, 12:01 PM
Neither do I.:)
And your point? Why would you think this is relevant? So? Point? Relevance? NO DNA evidence to Madeleine!! Which is why abduction is still on the table.
LE thought :waitasec: So it must be true then. :rolleyes:So!!..Anyone asked and not knowing could have wondered the same!! NO evidence there wasn't...Abduction is still on the table!! And the PJ failed to secure the crime scene so evidence of an abduction could have been lost!! Inconsistancies are normal. It would be abnormal if they were synchronized!! She has shown emotion IMO. But geez Colomom she smiles. :waitasec:I doubt that Salem would agree with you!! I hope to God they are better that the cops on Madeleines case!! Obviously.:)

Wow!! I was pointing out similarities, which you said there were none of....

Lately it seems as if everything that is posted becomes an opportunity to defend the McCanns.

Yeah....she smiles....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/HappyKM-1.gif

april4sky
07-31-2008, 12:14 PM
Wow!! I was pointing out similarities, which you said there were none of....

Lately it seems as if everything that is posted becomes an opportunity to defend the McCanns.

Yeah....she smiles....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/HappyKM-1.gifNice One, you got that right. :)

april4sky
07-31-2008, 12:23 PM
I respectfully disagree April. The similarity is the neglectful behavior of the parents. Yes, some of the facts are different, however the neglectful behavior is the same. In Maddie's case she was left alone to fend for herself and her siblings. In Caylee's case, she was apparently given to some person who existence can not be established. No matter how you look at it, both children were abandoned by their parents.

SalemSorry Salem :blowkiss: but I disagree.
Even though we don't like it, baby listening is legal in Europe. If they had abandoned their children they would have been charged, and rightly so.
And we don't know if Caylee was actually left with anyone.

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 01:10 PM
Even though we don't like it, baby listening is legal in Europe. If they had abandoned their children they would have been charged, and rightly so.

Salem clearly mentioned the neglectful attitude of the parents NOT about the legality of baby listening. Come on April, you are also a mom and said in the past you did not think it was right to leave those kids alone. That's neglectful behaviors regardless of the legality aspect.

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 01:12 PM
I have no problem admitting I am pro-McCann SleuthMom.


Oh, I see. Interesting.

I am Pro-Madeleine.

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 01:16 PM
Yeah....she smiles....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/colomom/HappyKM-1.gif

:eek::eek::eek:

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-31-2008, 02:02 PM
IW I thought you had me on ignore. :waitasec:

I don't agree with Salem regarding similarities with the McCanns. The fact they have been cleared supports that. NO evidence!!! And abduction is still one of the PJ's theories!!
Every case is different...though all are equally heartbreaking.

As for little Caylee I fully agree with Salem.

I believe Casey is a compulsive liar and the police have proof of that.
There is no excuse for not reporting her daughter missing, in fact it was the grandmother who finally did that.
And the grandmother saying the car smelt as though a dead body had been inside...is a big clue.
It will be interesting to hear the DNA results.

It's not sounding good but I do hope the smell wasn't from Caylee and that they find that precious little girl safe.
With the new up-grades, I can't figure out how to ignore you, though I doubt I would anyway. It is amusing to see you at work. I will not argue with you, and that was my main point. I was just interested if you trusted the cadaver dogs in Caylee's case, ....a similarity in the 2 cases you said were NOT similar.:waitasec:

daffodil
07-31-2008, 02:11 PM
With the new up-grades, I can't figure out how to ignore you, though I doubt I would anyway. It is amusing to see you at work. I will not argue with you, and that was my main point. I was just interested if you trusted the cadaver dogs in Caylee's case, ....a similarity in the 2 cases you said were NOT similar.:waitasec:


Perhaps you would like to post out the "amusing" parts of Aprils posts as I havent seen any :confused:

daffodil
07-31-2008, 02:14 PM
I disagree that there is no evidence pointing towards the McCanns. In fact, I think what evidence there is, points directly towards them.



Obviously LE do not agree with you.

Salem
07-31-2008, 02:40 PM
Sorry Salem :blowkiss: but I disagree.
Even though we don't like it, baby listening is legal in Europe. If they had abandoned their children they would have been charged, and rightly so.
And we don't know if Caylee was actually left with anyone.

I understand what you are saying. Yes, I know that babylistening was legal, but it was not right. Especially after Maddie cried for them the night before. And honestly, April, if you did this to your child, and she cried, and she asked you the next morning, would you really be able to do it again? I'm not saying what the McCanns did was illegal, I am saying it was neglectful and, in my opinion, was an abandonment both physically and emotionally of their child.

True - we don't know what happened to Caylee at all. AND that is neglectful and in my opinion, an abandonment of Caylee both physically and emotionally. That the mother can not find her child and does not know where she is, is horrendeous behavior. The same in the McCann case - that the parents can not find their child and don't know where she is, is horrendous behavior.

In both cases it was neglectful behavior that has resulted in the loss of these two babies. Unexcusable.

Babylistening was/is legal in Europe. Asking someone to care for your child is legal. Leaving a child alone and thereby allowing something bad to happen to her, is, in Europe, legal, apparently. Asking someone to care for your child and then losing all track of the child, in the US, is neglectful behavior punishable by jail time. In my opinion, just based on the stories the two sets of parent's tell - Casey was more responsible than the McCanns. She at least left the child with someone that was supposed to care for her. The McCanns freely admit they left Maddie alone.

Given that Maddie is missing and may never be found, I find it very difficult to get past the behavior that allowed the child to go missing in the first place. Legal or not, what parent would abandon their child after the child told them that she was crying and knew that they were not there AND there was no one else there either, to see to her needs. No matter whether you support the McCanns or not, this is bad parenting (and April from your previous posts, I know you agree with this - I'm just ranting here and not directing this at you personally). Name any child psychologist, psychiatrist, expert or bystander, that would condone this behavior. So far the only folks to condone it are those that say what happened to Maddie should be punishment enough. For me, this doesn't get it. What happened to Maddie? Where is she? Is she in the presence of some sick POS? Is she dead? Is she with some mentally ill person? Where is she? We can only ask the McCanns and they are not, in my opinion, forthcoming with what happened to their daughter.

I think that eventually, like the dingo case in Australia, something will happen or new evidence will be discovered that will prove the truth of the matter. Until then, I can only hope that the McCanns are watched closely by their families and others in order to prevent any harm to the twins.

Salem

colomom
07-31-2008, 02:50 PM
I understand what you are saying. Yes, I know that babylistening was legal, but it was not right. Especially after Maddie cried for them the night before. And honestly, April, if you did this to your child, and she cried, and she asked you the next morning, would you really be able to do it again? I'm not saying what the McCanns did was illegal, I am saying it was neglectful and, in my opinion, was an abandonment both physically and emotionally of their child.

True - we don't know what happened to Caylee at all. AND that is neglectful and in my opinion, an abandonment of Caylee both physically and emotionally. That the mother can not find her child and does not know where she is, is horrendeous behavior. The same in the McCann case - that the parents can not find their child and don't know where she is, is horrendous behavior.

In both cases it was neglectful behavior that has resulted in the loss of these two babies. Unexcusable.

Babylistening was/is legal in Europe. Asking someone to care for your child is legal. Leaving a child alone and thereby allowing something bad to happen to her, is, in Europe, legal, apparently. Asking someone to care for your child and then losing all track of the child, in the US, is neglectful behavior punishable by jail time. In my opinion, just based on the stories the two sets of parent's tell - Casey was more responsible than the McCanns. She at least left the child with someone that was supposed to care for her. The McCanns freely admit they left Maddie alone.

Given that Maddie is missing and may never be found, I find it very difficult to get past the behavior that allowed the child to go missing in the first place. Legal or not, what parent would abandon their child after the child told them that she was crying and knew that they were not there AND there was no one else there either, to see to her needs. No matter whether you support the McCanns or not, this is bad parenting (and April from your previous posts, I know you agree with this - I'm just ranting here and not directing this at you personally). Name any child psychologist, psychiatrist, expert or bystander, that would condone this behavior. So far the only folks to condone it are those that say what happened to Maddie should be punishment enough. For me, this doesn't get it. What happened to Maddie? Where is she? Is she in the presence of some sick POS? Is she dead? Is she with some mentally ill person? Where is she? We can only ask the McCanns and they are not, in my opinion, forthcoming with what happened to their daughter.

I think that eventually, like the dingo case in Australia, something will happen or new evidence will be discovered that will prove the truth of the matter. Until then, I can only hope that the McCanns are watched closely by their families and others in order to prevent any harm to the twins.

Salem

Awesome post Salem....

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-31-2008, 03:13 PM
Perhaps you would like to post out the "amusing" parts of Aprils posts as I havent seen any :confused:

I would rather ask you a question, I was reading some of your posts in the JonBenet Ramsey thread and find it interesting that you feel that Patsy Ramsey is guilty even though she has been technically "Cleared" via touch DNA. What is it that makes you feel that Patsy is guilty vs. Kate innocent?

After reading all of Aprils posts I see that she feels JVS is guilty in the Natalee Holloway case, and he has never been formally charged or convicted of her disappearance either. This tell me that it's not a moral issue to defend the McCanns with either of you....if it were, you would defend all who are accused until PROVEN otherwise.

daffodil
07-31-2008, 04:55 PM
I would rather ask you a question, I was reading some of your posts in the JonBenet Ramsey thread and find it interesting that you feel that Patsy Ramsey is guilty even though she has been technically "Cleared" via touch DNA. What is it that makes you feel that Patsy is guilty vs. Kate innocent?

After reading all of Aprils posts I see that she feels JVS is guilty in the Natalee Holloway case, and he has never been formally charged or convicted of her disappearance either. This tell me that it's not a moral issue to defend the McCanns with either of you....if it were, you would defend all who are accused until PROVEN otherwise.


I dont know who JVS is or anything about Natalie Holloway so I cant comment.I dont think this is the place to go into the ins and outs of the JBR case except to say I believe the evidence points to Patsy Ramsey but not to Kate McCann.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-31-2008, 05:41 PM
I dont know who JVS is or anything about Natalie Holloway so I cant comment.I dont think this is the place to go into the ins and outs of the JBR case except to say I believe the evidence points to Patsy Ramsey but not to Kate McCann.

Oh, I see. Well this is what you posted:


You know Callan, I started following this case about 6 months in as here in the UK there wasnt obviously as much coverage as in the US and in all the years since I believed an intruder did it BUT over the last 12 months my opinions have changed-partly through reading these forums and partly my own common sense.Whilst I disagree with certain conclusions reached and feel a lot of discussions go on about largely irrelevant points on the whole I cannot disagree with the opinion Patsy did it.What I feel happened is this:

After a long,tiring day JonBenet falls asleep in the car on the way home from the Whites,whether she then walks in or was carried is beside the point I feel as at some point she was awake,she possibly woke when Patsy was changing her clothes.JB is then hungry so Patsy gives her the pineapple and either her or Burke have the tea.JR and BR play with his toys and Patsy puts the pillow at the foot of JBs bed and lets her watch a video whilst Patsy is down the hall packing for the trip.At some point she checks JB,sees she has fallen asleep and wet the bed.Tired,stressed,infuriated she sees red and grabs JB,a tussle ensues causing the curtain tie back to come loose and the hair ties to be knocked over.During the struggle she flings JB round hard and hits her head on the bedpost of the spare bed (take a look at the shape of those and how they curve outwards).JB is unconscious so Patsy lifts her onto the bed,gets John,they get Burke to bed and out of the way.PR and JR go downstairs to the kitchen,Patsy uses the tissues as she is crying.JR goes into CEO mode and they form the plan to pass it as a kidnapping gone bad.All the pertinent equipment is gathered,some perhaps rejected eg the rope,they go upstairs and JR carries JB down the spiral stairs to the cellar getting garland strands in her hair on the way down.They lay her outside the WC and fashion the garrote,strangling her with it and inserting the paintbrush inside her.Patsy writes the RN by which time time has run out and they call 911 and we all know what followed.

I realise of course this is a simplistic version of what probably happened but I would think its a logical version and JMHO.:twocents:


MY POINT is, you believe this is what happened to Jon Benet, and MANY believe that something very similar happened to Madeleine. All you have to go on in your theory is rumors, smears and media. There is NO proof, no arrest, no conviction. So why is it okay for you to personally condemn the parents of a child, but when I do so it's morally unethical?

Salem
07-31-2008, 06:28 PM
Awesome post Salem....

Thanks colomom. Can you see my frustration growing :crazy:

With this case, Caylee Anthony and little Mya Lyons from Chicago, I just feel so sad for these babies.

:blowkiss:

Salem

Texana
07-31-2008, 06:29 PM
Texana we have been over Mrs Fenn. And while there may well be inconsistancies between some statemants none of us yet know the truth of those. :waitasec:

And none of what you are claiming comes close to being evidence that the McCanns harmed their child.

And WHY?? do you think abduction is still one of the options...and that according to the PJ!!!

Texana it's nice to know that you are waking up if you are now recognising the PJ's lies...and incompetance.
....It would be refreshing as I have yet to see the anti McCanns do that.

And for a true BIG PICTURE you need to do that.

We have not gone over Mrs. Fenn enough, as we still seem to be a long ways from any kind of conclusion. I can't understand why she would allow that final version to be quoted in the official report if it was in error--given that the McCanns have sued newspapers, don't you think she'd have some fear of being sued as well?

Ditto Kate's notes. They are from her own notebook and verbal responses. There is no argument from the McCann camp on the "checking every thirty minutes."

So again: Someone is wrong. Which one? They can't both be right.

Texana
07-31-2008, 06:31 PM
I understand what you are saying. Yes, I know that babylistening was legal, but it was not right. Especially after Maddie cried for them the night before. And honestly, April, if you did this to your child, and she cried, and she asked you the next morning, would you really be able to do it again? I'm not saying what the McCanns did was illegal, I am saying it was neglectful and, in my opinion, was an abandonment both physically and emotionally of their child.

True - we don't know what happened to Caylee at all. AND that is neglectful and in my opinion, an abandonment of Caylee both physically and emotionally. That the mother can not find her child and does not know where she is, is horrendeous behavior. The same in the McCann case - that the parents can not find their child and don't know where she is, is horrendous behavior.

In both cases it was neglectful behavior that has resulted in the loss of these two babies. Unexcusable.

Babylistening was/is legal in Europe. Asking someone to care for your child is legal. Leaving a child alone and thereby allowing something bad to happen to her, is, in Europe, legal, apparently. Asking someone to care for your child and then losing all track of the child, in the US, is neglectful behavior punishable by jail time. In my opinion, just based on the stories the two sets of parent's tell - Casey was more responsible than the McCanns. She at least left the child with someone that was supposed to care for her. The McCanns freely admit they left Maddie alone.

Given that Maddie is missing and may never be found, I find it very difficult to get past the behavior that allowed the child to go missing in the first place. Legal or not, what parent would abandon their child after the child told them that she was crying and knew that they were not there AND there was no one else there either, to see to her needs. No matter whether you support the McCanns or not, this is bad parenting (and April from your previous posts, I know you agree with this - I'm just ranting here and not directing this at you personally). Name any child psychologist, psychiatrist, expert or bystander, that would condone this behavior. So far the only folks to condone it are those that say what happened to Maddie should be punishment enough. For me, this doesn't get it. What happened to Maddie? Where is she? Is she in the presence of some sick POS? Is she dead? Is she with some mentally ill person? Where is she? We can only ask the McCanns and they are not, in my opinion, forthcoming with what happened to their daughter.

I think that eventually, like the dingo case in Australia, something will happen or new evidence will be discovered that will prove the truth of the matter. Until then, I can only hope that the McCanns are watched closely by their families and others in order to prevent any harm to the twins.

Salem

Well said, Salem.

colomom
07-31-2008, 07:53 PM
Thanks colomom. Can you see my frustration growing :crazy:

With this case, Caylee Anthony and little Mya Lyons from Chicago, I just feel so sad for these babies.

:blowkiss:

Salem

You and me both my friend. Actually I think you have the patience of a saint...seriously.

Little girls in the world today are so vulnerable. I hold my 8 year old very close indeed.

The cases that have totally changed my attitude were Maddie, of course, Rowan Ford, Mady Bogard, Riley Sawyers and now Caylee Anthony. I just do not understand how those mothers responsible for nurturing and protecting them could have let them down so callously. Blows my mind....

:blowkiss: Salem....thank god for you!

daffodil
07-31-2008, 07:53 PM
Oh, I see. Well this is what you posted:



MY POINT is, you believe this is what happened to Jon Benet, and MANY believe that something very similar happened to Madeleine. All you have to go on in your theory is rumors, smears and media. There is NO proof, no arrest, no conviction. So why is it okay for you to personally condemn the parents of a child, but when I do so it's morally unethical?

I dont believe I have commented on your beliefs as morally unethical :confused:.As you say about the Ramseys so I say about the McCanns ie NO proof,NO arrest,NO conviction.

colomom
07-31-2008, 07:56 PM
I dont know who JVS is or anything about Natalie Holloway so I cant comment.I dont think this is the place to go into the ins and outs of the JBR case except to say I believe the evidence points to Patsy Ramsey but not to Kate McCann.

Evidence?? What evidence??

Patsy Ramsey has been cleared, there was NO evidence.

Oooppss...I sound like....never mind....:crazy:

(actually, I have always thought Patsy was guilty as sin)

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-31-2008, 08:06 PM
I dont believe I have commented on your beliefs as morally unethical :confused:.As you say about the Ramseys so I say about the McCanns ie NO proof,NO arrest,NO conviction.

I don't believe I ever said I felt the Ramsey's innocent, nothing could be further from the truth. And you are correct that you have never said my comments are "morally unethical", it was a figure of speech. I feel as though you belittle me and other posters for our beliefs as somehow we are heathens for feeling the way we do. Do you understand what I'm saying?

colomom
07-31-2008, 08:11 PM
I don't believe I ever said I felt the Ramsey's innocent, nothing could be further from the truth. And you are correct that you have never said my comments are "morally unethical", it was a figure of speech. I feel as though you belittle me and other posters for our beliefs as somehow we are heathens for feeling the way we do. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Witch hunt and lynch mob come to mind....

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 08:12 PM
I feel as though you belittle me and other posters for our beliefs as somehow we are heathens for feeling the way we do. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Oh she does, trust me on this one. :crazy:

colomom
07-31-2008, 08:15 PM
From Lusa (http://noticias.sapo.pt/lusa/artigo/1975147b8e35386a30787e.html) just now:

Copied from: http://www.helpmadeleine.proboards79.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1242 #13

Madeleine: Public Ministry makes process available from Monday onwards

Faro, 31 Jul (Lusa) – The Public Ministry makes the Madeleine McCann process, whose inquiry was archived on the 21st of this month and which prompted the lifting of arguido status from the child’s parents and from Robert Murat, available to the media on Monday.

The document starts being made available to the journalists that requested access to the process, starting on Monday at the Public Ministry’s Office that operates with the Portimão Court, an official source informed today.

daffodil
07-31-2008, 08:19 PM
I don't believe I ever said I felt the Ramsey's innocent, nothing could be further from the truth. And you are correct that you have never said my comments are "morally unethical", it was a figure of speech. I feel as though you belittle me and other posters for our beliefs as somehow we are heathens for feeling the way we do. Do you understand what I'm saying?


Works both ways imo.

daffodil
07-31-2008, 08:22 PM
Oh she does, trust me on this one. :crazy:


Who is SHE?????? Perhaps you would explain as I dont which part of the quoted postyou are referencing.

daffodil
07-31-2008, 08:24 PM
Witch hunt and lynch mob come to mind....


Give me a bloody break sheesh :furious:

colomom
07-31-2008, 08:38 PM
http://www.the-news.net/cgi-bin/google.pl?id=970-2

Exclusive in English: Former ‘Maddie Cop’ interview
2/8/2008

In an interview staged only a short walk from the regional PJ police headquarters in Faro over the weekend, Gonçalo Amaral, the former leading detective in the case involving the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, has an open and frank conversation with The Portugal News. Lambasted by the British media, and ignored by much of the Portuguese written press since the launch of his controversial book last week (which the Correia da Manhã newspaper has assisted in promoting), Gonçalo Amaral explains his reasoning behind certain methods of investigation, and stresses his actions to date have not been to accuse anyone, rather, he argues, his focus has been about the pursuit of truth.

The Portugal News: Did you leak information about the investigation to the media?

Gonçalo Amaral: I never had anything to do with leaks. We have to look at from where these leaks could have originated. A number of entities worked with us during the investigations and we cannot rule out the possibility that some of these leaks originated in Britain. As a matter of fact, when the FSS handed over their report to Portuguese police, we kept it under wraps, but a British daily was the first to appear with extracts of the FSS’s findings.

TPN: But how does that explain that some sections of the Portuguese press have printed confidential information that later proved to be accurate?

GA: Perhaps they had good sources of information, but we cannot conclude that they were given information by police in the Algarve.

TPN: The report leaked last week says that Gerry and Kate were made arguidos on the “merest possibility” that they were involved in the disappearance of their child. Is that accurate?

GA: They were made arguidos on suspicion of two crimes: concealing a body and simulating an abduction and potentially the crime of abandonment. But saying they were made arguidos on the merest possibility that they were involved in the disappearance of their child is not true. The conclusions reached by the team investigating the crime, including colleagues in Britain, are the same as the five points I mention at the end of my book. Perhaps the conclusions reached in this latest report were made to facilitate the archiving of the case and findings were put across in a mild manner. Once you gain access to the case files, you will find that it was not due to a mere possibility.

<continues>

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
07-31-2008, 08:49 PM
Works both ways imo.
Oh, BTW, I forgot to mention, I think your theory in the JBR case is pretty good...

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 09:02 PM
Give me a bloody break sheesh :furious:

What? Did Colomom lie? :rolleyes:

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 09:03 PM
Who is SHE?????? Perhaps you would explain as I dont which part of the quoted postyou are referencing.

Sure. I thought it was obvious. YOU I was referring to.

april4sky
07-31-2008, 10:07 PM
Oh, I see. Interesting.

I am Pro-Madeleine.You are the one who mentioned Pro and Anti McCanns.

I thought it was a given that we are All Pro- Madeleine. :waitasec:

Barnaby
07-31-2008, 10:30 PM
For sure taking a break :furious: I really cannot deal with the nonsense on here!

Bottom line -
Two parents left three kids under four alone to go get pissed & have a good night! Alone in an unsecured apartment if what they would have us believe is true! An apartment on the main road despite the warnings that complex owners had given about burglaries!

One of those kids went missing, if genuine abduction, wouldn't have happened if parents were not pissed in local Tapas bar! End of!

What kind of people will continue to defend these moronic imbeciles I cannot fathom, what they did is like putting your hand on coals in an open fire & expecting not to get burned!

Wake up & smell the roses which Madeleine will never smell again! The Mccanns killed her, whether by their own hands or by utter negligence! THEY DID IT! they are responsible for whatever happened to a defenceless 3 year old! I bloodywell hope their night of drinking & fun was worth it! I hope that everytime they put a drink in their mouths again, they will think of the ACTUAL COST of their pleasure!

People like these do not deserve the wonderful gift of children which most of us here appreciate & cherish!

april4sky
07-31-2008, 10:47 PM
After reading all of Aprils posts I see that she feels JVS is guilty in the Natalee Holloway case, and he has never been formally charged or convicted of her disappearance either. This tell me that it's not a moral issue to defend the McCanns with either of you....if it were, you would defend all who are accused until PROVEN otherwise.Yes IW, I do think JVS guilty.
Every case is different and if you have followed Natalee's case you would know that.

Interesting to me that you picked Natalee's case.
If you check her thread you will see clearly what people think of the Aruban Police investigation.
See if you can spot the similarities between the PLE and the ALE. :furious:

IW Did you see Jorans video? nuff said! :furious:

twinkiesmom
07-31-2008, 10:49 PM
The one thing the Ramseys and the McCann's have in common...you take away 6 or 7 zeros from their annual income, and someone's sitting in jail.

SleuthMom
07-31-2008, 11:03 PM
I thought it was a given that we are All Pro- Madeleine. :waitasec:

NOT based on your many comments about how you perceive some of the discussions here.

april4sky
07-31-2008, 11:08 PM
Evidence?? What evidence??

Patsy Ramsey has been cleared, there was NO evidence.

Oooppss...I sound like....never mind....:crazy:

(actually, I have always thought Patsy was guilty as sin)Oooppss indeed!! Talk about attempting to belittle...perhaps IW should check this out!!

I don't know enough about the Jonbenet case to give an opinon either way but haven't the police been accused of botching the crime scene. Another crime scene compromised.:waitasec:

I have compared the writing on the ransom note to Patsy's.:waitasec: Very interesting IMO. :waitasec:

Every case is different!!

april4sky
07-31-2008, 11:26 PM
NOT based on your many comments about how you perceive some of the discussions here.Untrue and a nasty nasty comment Sleuthmom. :furious: I thought better of you!!