Brooke Bennett, 12 years old Randolph VT #13

[christine2448]

Please continue here.

Previous and related thread links can be found towards the bottom of the page.

[SuziQ]

Thanks Christine!

[galvino]

:seeya:Thanks Christine!

[LI_Mom]

Guys, let's keep in mind that LE only released VERY few portions of emails between MJ (the 2 aliases) & AR in order to bring chrages to ARREST MJ.

I'm sure there must be MANY more emails over the month that showed the way the plot changed over time.

We can only speculate about what turns their plot might have taken & we do NOT know what final plan they agreed upon.

[RR0004]

I am sooooo confused...he changed the MySpace from Alabama? I know in the affidavit they said that his emails were traced backed to Texas. So just the emails were from Texas, but he was in Alabama (the 26th) at the time of Brooke's disappearance? Who's not to say that he wasn't in VT then on the 25th?

[galvino]

SuziQ- Is that article re: RG being in Cullman on the 26th the only one saying that?f so, I just wonder wy others are not reporting it as it would seem to be pretty impt and newsworthy? !

[Tom'sGirl]

:seeya:Thanks Christine!
Thanks Christine!
Dittohttp://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon4.gif

[VTGirl81]

SuziQ- Is that article re: RG being in Cullman on the 26th the only one saying that?f so, I just wonder wy others are not reporting it as it would seem to be pretty impt and newsworthy? !

That's the only place I've seen it. The Burlington Free Press article says that he attemped to log in on or about June 26, but didn't say from where.

[galvino]

Thx VTGirl- That is why I wonder if it is accurate, or info they didn't want out for some reason and they took it and ran with it. Isn't that the source that initially put out the not so redacted version of the affidavit, then changed it? OOPS!

[i.b.nora]

I just posted this in the Media thread:

Former Cullman Resident Charged with Possession of Child Pornography (http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8629241)

"BIRMINGHAM, AL - Raymond Alfred Gagnon, 40, formerly of Cullman Alabama, has been charged in a Criminal Complaint filed today in United States District Court in Birmingham for possession of child pornography.

Gagnon, who presently owns a home in Cullman, Alabama, is alleged to have possessed child pornography images on computer media which he stored in his former residence on or about June 26, 2008. The complaint also alleges that GAGNON attempted to access a missing twelve year-old Vermont girl's MySpace page through a Cullman library's public computer on or about June 26, 2008."

[Starr58]

According to the statement, Gagnon also tried to access ex-stepdaughter Brooke Bennett's MySpace account "on or about" June 26 from a library computer in Cullman. June 26 is the day after Brooke, who was 12, was reported missing in Randolph, Vt. She was found in a shallow grave in that town a week later and her uncle, Michael Jacques, has been charged with kidnapping her.


http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/THISJUSTIN/831184842

[Morag]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/07/missing.vermont.girl.ap/?iref=mpstoryview

According to the statement, Gagnon also tried to access ex-stepdaughter Brooke Bennett's MySpace account "on or about" June 26 from a library computer in Cullman

[Medea]

Jesus, can this case get any stranger?

So that would mean on the 25th, in Texas, he accesses her account, the phone calls between he and Jacques were the night/early morning of the 25/26...some time he then get in a car and drives to Alabama, where the next day, 26th he again attempts to access her account??????????????????????? WTF.

[RR0004]

I just posted this in the Media thread:

Former Cullman Resident Charged with Possession of Child Pornography (http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8629241)

"BIRMINGHAM, AL - Raymond Alfred Gagnon, 40, formerly of Cullman Alabama, has been charged in a Criminal Complaint filed today in United States District Court in Birmingham for possession of child pornography.

Gagnon, who presently owns a home in Cullman, Alabama, is alleged to have possessed child pornography images on computer media which he stored in his former residence on or about June 26, 2008. The complaint also alleges that GAGNON attempted to access a missing twelve year-old Vermont girl's MySpace page through a Cullman library's public computer on or about June 26, 2008."
Well, there goes KG's story!

[believe09]

Scuse me for a blonde moment, but whose computer did RG destroy? Not Jacques missing one..??

[Starr58]

Jesus, can this case get any stranger?

So that would mean on the 25th, in Texas, he accesses her account, the phone calls between he and Jacques were the night/early morning of the 25/26...some time he then get in a car and drives to Alabama, where the next day, 26th he again attempts to access her account??????????????????????? WTF.



And MJ calls LE at 1:00 am.

[LI_Mom]

And previously we heard the changes made to the MySpace came from MJ & one from TEXAS.

[DeltaDawn]

I think he (Gagnon) accessed her email account from Texas and then went to Cullman to the library to access her MYSpace account. To different things, email and MySpace..two different locations..Texas then Alabama..BUT INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF TRAVEL AND TIME INVOLVED..HE MUST NOT HAVE SLEPT AT ALL

[IMBY]

Added more pictures of a sugar house. (Pics of inside)

Nobody has been inside for years. Door is jammed shut.
http://web.mac.com/th0r/bb/Photos.html

[VTGirl81]

Wow...I am thoroughly confused with this Texas/Alabama Myspace changing stuff. LE definitely has more info that they are keeping to themselves.

[galvino]

Thanks Nora, Starr & Morag!

JEEZ LOUISE, Medea- I agree with you! RG must be flushh with cash to be driving all over 'Egypt' from Tx and then going up to Vermont- gas, as we all know, is pretty expensive these days and thats alot of driving! Bet he was pooping his pants about then so was running on adrenaline- bet he didn't sleep much!

OK- I wanna know his timeline NOW! And mark our words- I'll bet KG is involved in helping in some way!

[Medea]

My current understanding would be that he tried twice, in Texas and then again in Alabama. I can't see the Feds accusing him of accessing her account from Texas by mistake, plus, he admitted it!

Its looking like I was wrong about Gagnon only being involved after the fact...this is too much action on his part too early for him to have had no inkling this was going to happen in advance.

[RR0004]

I think he accessed her email account from Texas and then went to Cullman to the lirary to access her MYSpace account. To different things, email and MySpace..two different locations..Texas then Alabama
Refresh my memory, why did he access her email account?

[SuziQ]

Feds say Vt. girl was killed; uncle held
Updated at 4:31 p.m.
July 7, 2008

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338

[Tom'sGirl]

Added more pictures of the sugar house. (Pics of inside)

Nobody has been inside for years. Door is jammed shut.
http://web.mac.com/th0r/bb/Photos.html
Excellent, thank you....great shots!

[IMBY]

Hmm... I just found out there is ANOTHER sugar house nearby on a logging road, not visible from anywhere.

Pics posted so far are probly NOT of the sugar house referenced by LE in this case. (although the distance/location seemed to fit exactly)

Sorry for the confusion.

[VTGirl81]

This explains a little more...

While he was in court, federal prosecutors in Alabama charged him with possessing child pornography at his former home in Cullman, Ala.

In affidavits filed in Vermont, the FBI said Jacques changed a posting to Brooke’s MySpace account the night she was reported missing. Gagnon also accessed the account that night, but denied changing the posting, according to the affidavit.

In announcing the pornography charge, federal prosecutors in Birmingham, Ala., said Gagnon acknowledged trying to access the account again from a public computer in the Cullman library “on or about” June 26, the next day.

The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27.

It's from SuziQ's article she just posted.

[SuziQ]

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338

(snip)
The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27

[Liz]

I just posted this in the Media thread:

Former Cullman Resident Charged with Possession of Child Pornography (http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8629241)

"BIRMINGHAM, AL - Raymond Alfred Gagnon, 40, formerly of Cullman Alabama, has been charged in a Criminal Complaint filed today in United States District Court in Birmingham for possession of child pornography.

Gagnon, who presently owns a home in Cullman, Alabama, is alleged to have possessed child pornography images on computer media which he stored in his former residence on or about June 26, 2008. The complaint also alleges that GAGNON attempted to access a missing twelve year-old Vermont girl's MySpace page through a Cullman library's public computer on or about June 26, 2008."


At least I called that right.

Thanks for the post nora, and also for posting it in Media Links thread! :)

[Starr58]

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338

The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27.

[DeltaDawn]

Added more pictures of the sugar house. (Pics of inside)

Nobody has been inside for years. Door is jammed shut.
http://web.mac.com/th0r/bb/Photos.html


Great shots..thank you. It really seems a desolate location..all around the area. I can see how he could have quickly buried her without anyone noticing..in the evening.

[emanon7]

I just posted this in the Media thread:

Former Cullman Resident Charged with Possession of Child Pornography (http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8629241)

"BIRMINGHAM, AL - Raymond Alfred Gagnon, 40, formerly of Cullman Alabama, has been charged in a Criminal Complaint filed today in United States District Court in Birmingham for possession of child pornography.

Gagnon, who presently owns a home in Cullman, Alabama, is alleged to have possessed child pornography images on computer media which he stored in his former residence on or about June 26, 2008. The complaint also alleges that GAGNON attempted to access a missing twelve year-old Vermont girl's MySpace page through a Cullman library's public computer on or about June 26, 2008."

Surely these charges mean they actually found Cporn stored at that house. They couldn't just charge him based on his admission that he had 5 years worth on his laptop knowing he was living there 5 years ago could they?

[galvino]

Thanks again IMBY! You are a great slueth! Good to have boots on the ground there. Wish I was close so I could do some psycho drive bys!

Carp- I guess I'll get nothing done tonite, as I will be pecking and reading here all night, trying to figure out RG's route and timeline.

Whew! I'm exhausted already. I will do laundry tomorrow...I will get ready for houseguests... I will... (keep repeating over and over until it works)

[i.b.nora]

I am thinking that Ray had his porn on a "portable" hard drive that he normally kept with him, in his safe. I think he took the hard drive (but not the safe) with him to Cullman to hide it. Then, when he realized how much the police knew about Jacques, he asked Kevin to toss out the (empty) safe. Another ploy to lead investigators astray. As was the accessing the MySpace from Cullman.

As far as the laptop goes, it depends on whether it would fit in the safe. Do we know if there were two seperate items? The safe and the laptop? Or, was the laptop supposedly in the safe?

I just have never thought it likely that a guy would willingly throw out 5 years worth of collecting Russian porn.

Just some thoughts.

[DeltaDawn]

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338

The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27.


Thank you, Star. Even flying from place to place within that timeframe and accessing the computers etc..he was really intent on getting this covered up as quick as possible and get to Vermont.

That porn has to have pics of AR, Gagnon, MJ, and possibly others for him to take it with him to hide in Cullman.

[Jaded]

Thanks Nora, Starr & Morag!

JEEZ LOUISE, Medea- I agree with you! RG must be flushh with cash to be driving all over 'Egypt' from Tx and then going up to Vermont- gas, as we all know, is pretty expensive these days and thats alot of driving! Bet he was pooping his pants about then so was running on adrenaline- bet he didn't sleep much!

OK- I wanna know his timeline NOW! And mark our words- I'll bet KG is involved in helping in some way!

I'm with you about KG's involvement. When Gagnon got to VT and realized that shat was about to hit the fan - is that when he called KG to ditch the safe? Or did he take the stuff with him and put it in the vacant home in Cullman? Ugh, this case has so many twists and turns.

[Medea]

What kind of idiot who knows he's guilty of child rape {AR}, knows or suspects his buddy Jacques has killed his former step daughter, assists in obstructing justice FAILS TO DESTROY his porn collection?

The worst thing about this case is that these complete morons were still able to kill this little girl. The fact that they spun the very web that has trapped them is cold comfort.

[Chica]

Added more pictures of a sugar house. (Pics of inside)

Nobody has been inside for years. Door is jammed shut.
http://web.mac.com/th0r/bb/Photos.html

WOW - you are INCREDIBLE!!! Thank you so much for posting these picture...I feel like I actually walked through the woods to the sugar house and went inside! Thank you!!

From what it looks like, no one has been inside the sugar house for some time...evidently that is not where MJ did the dirty deed...

[galvino]

Wow! wouldn't you think that RG wasn't just reacting to a late night phone call if he was flying all over the place? This seems more premeditated as he had to hope he could get last minute tix, rent cars, etc....

Going to read so I can stop speculating (that's dangerous!)

[LaLaw2000]

Jesus, can this case get any stranger?

So that would mean on the 25th, in Texas, he accesses her account, the phone calls between he and Jacques were the night/early morning of the 25/26...some time he then get in a car and drives to Alabama, where the next day, 26th he again attempts to access her account??????????????????????? WTF.

Well, his CELL PHONE could have been left with Kevin! I think Gagnon had joined the jet set! No way was he doing all of this driving. In my opinion, Jacques, Gagnon, and Kevin were in this together. They are all liars!
If Federal Authorities say Gagnon ATTEMPTED to access a library computer in Cullman, Alabama, he must have. The phone calls probably were to Gagnons cell phone, but Kevin had it.
Gagnon could very well have been in Cullman, Alabama, on his way back from Vermont via Birmingham airport. And libraries close fairly early in small towns. Then flying right back to Vermont all concerned! The trips could be verified by the FBI. They are not telling us much right now. In the article the other day, Kevin says he had spent 24 hours with various members of the FBI and did not want to do that again. Kevin's family are the ones that have the money, and an attorney by the same last name. Kevin squealed, I think. It only makes sense. Kevin is probably the one with a 'deal'!
Gagnon and Jacques are probably in PC where they are in jail. I'm sure it drives them crazy wondering who has said what. And none of them know what AR has told. I think she has told what she knew.

[LI_Mom]

Hmm... I just found out there is ANOTHER sugar house nearby on a logging road, not visible from anywhere.

Pics posted so far are probly NOT of the sugar house referenced by LE in this case. (although the distance/location seemed to fit exactly)

Sorry for the confusion.

LOL!

Oh well, the pics were nice in any event.

Are there any areas around there that are off limits because the police are preserving the scene of a crime?

[dark_shadows]

Jacques and Gagnon are due back in court July 17th for a probable cause hearing.



Respectfully,
dark_shadows

[DeltaDawn]

I still think MJ did the deed upstairs in their house...probably in the room missing the screen. The machine would have needed electricity to run. Also in the emails to AR he was talking about getting her upsatairs. Then AR confesses the last time she saw Brooke she was going upstairs with MJ.

Maybe after she was killed he put her in a large trash bag, put her out the window, rolled her off the roof to the ground..backed up his car or truck, put her inside, and took off to bury her

[Medea]

Well, his CELL PHONE could have been left with Kevin! I think Gagnon had joined the jet set! No way was he doing all of this driving. In my opinion, Jacques, Gagnon, and Kevin were in this together. They are all liars!
If Federal Authorities say Gagnon ATTEMPTED to access a library computer in Cullman, Alabama, he must have. The phone calls probably were to Gagnons cell phone, but Kevin had it.
Gagnon could very well have been in Cullman, Alabama, on his way back from Vermont via Birmingham airport. And libraries close fairly early in small towns. Then flying right back to Vermont all concerned! The trips could be verified by the FBI. They are not telling us much right now. In the article the other day, Kevin says he had spent 24 hours with various members of the FBI and did not want to do that again. Kevin's family are the ones that have the money, and an attorney by the same last name. Kevin squealed, I think. It only makes sense. Kevin is probably the one with a 'deal'!
Gagnon and Jacques are probably in PC where they are in jail. I'm sure it drives them crazy wondering who has said what. And none of them know what AR has told. I think she has told what she knew.


I still don't think Gagnon was in Vermont prior to Brooke's death, there isn't any evidence of that whatsoever.

I don't have any reason not to believe the calls recorded between Jacques and Gagnon were between those two and not Kevin. I would assume Gagnon just took his cell phone with him.

What I am now changing my mind about is Gagnon's prior knowledge of the abduction plot. Going to another state to access the account a second time...that's a LOT of obstruction of justice if you have no advance knowledge of the crime.

I also find it pretty suspicious that the safe has not yet been recovered. How hard can it be to find a freaking safe if the person who threw it out has told you the truth about when and where this happened?

[LI_Mom]

I still think MJ did the deed upstairs in their house...probably in the room missing the screen. The machine would have needed electricity to run. Also in the emails to AR he was talking about getting her upsatairs. Then AR confesses the last time she saw Brooke she was going upstairs with MJ.

Maybe after she was killed he put her in a large trash bag, put her out the window, rolled her off the roof to the ground..backed up his car or truck, put her inside, and took off to bury her

I didn't see the machines he bought but they sound gruesome....

wouldn't there have been a lot of blood evidence inside his house?

Wouldn't police have found that as soon as the search began???

[becca]

RG knew what was going on and hit the skies to try to cover up his involvement . I would venture out there on that limb to say he knew Brooke was dead.

[Carrington]

I still think MJ did the deed upstairs in their house...probably in the room missing the screen. The machine would have needed electricity to run. Also in the emails to AR he was talking about getting her upsatairs. Then AR confesses the last time she saw Brooke she was going upstairs with MJ.

Maybe after she was killed he put her in a large trash bag, put her out the window, rolled her off the roof to the ground..backed up his car or truck, put her inside, and took off to bury her

I'll bet the contraption comes with batteries.
But, I have no interest in looking at it again. :(

[IMBY]

LOL!

Oh well, the pics were nice in any event.

D'oh!

Are there any areas around there that are off limits because the police are preserving the scene of a crime?


No, there don't seem to be... no tape, no activity, no traffic.

Just past the sugar house in the pics there is a logging road.
I'm told that there is another sugar house up there.. but it certainly isn't visible.

[LaLaw2000]

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338

The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27.

Thank you, Starr58!
My head is spinning! I had not read your post with the updated article when I wrote mine.

[RR0004]

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338

The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27.
The 26th?

[DeltaDawn]

Well, his CELL PHONE could have been left with Kevin! I think Gagnon had joined the jet set! No way was he doing all of this driving. In my opinion, Jacques, Gagnon, and Kevin were in this together. They are all liars!
If Federal Authorities say Gagnon ATTEMPTED to access a library computer in Cullman, Alabama, he must have. The phone calls probably were to Gagnons cell phone, but Kevin had it.
Gagnon could very well have been in Cullman, Alabama, on his way back from Vermont via Birmingham airport. And libraries close fairly early in small towns. Then flying right back to Vermont all concerned! The trips could be verified by the FBI. They are not telling us much right now. In the article the other day, Kevin says he had spent 24 hours with various members of the FBI and did not want to do that again. Kevin's family are the ones that have the money, and an attorney by the same last name. Kevin squealed, I think. It only makes sense. Kevin is probably the one with a 'deal'!
Gagnon and Jacques are probably in PC where they are in jail. I'm sure it drives them crazy wondering who has said what. And none of them know what AR has told. I think she has told what she knew.

I also think Kevin has made a deal and they aren't releasing that info yet. And I believe AR has also told the truth by now..it wouldn't be too hard for FBI to get the whole thruth from AR..she is only 14...very savy..but still 14.



http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338


This article states GAGNON flew from San Antonio, to Cullman and then from Cullman to Vermont.

[LI_Mom]

D'oh!



No, there don't seem to be... no tape, no activity, no traffic.

Just past the sugar house in the pics there is a logging road.
I'm told that there is another sugar house up there.. but it certainly isn't visible.

Ok, just watch your tushie.... we sure don't want you arrested for taking pictures of a protected scene. There are already enough people to keep track of in this story. lol

And on a serious note... make sure no angry relatives are around either.... you just never know how people might react.

Love the pics but PLEASE be careful. :)

[galvino]

Medea- I'm with you! I think he certainly had prior knowledge of the abduction, was possibly planning to go to VT to 'be there for the family' and maybe planning to rape Brooke while there. I really believe MJ didn't plan to kill her right away, and planned to keep her alive a while and hidden to use as a peice of meat along with his pal GAGnon, but something went terribly wrong. He probably informed RG, who then hauled a** all over to cover his trakcs cause he didn't have time. He probably thought he'd have more time as brook wouln't be dead yet. Make any sense?

[RR0004]

Jacques and Gagnon are due back in court July 17th for a probable cause hearing.



Respectfully,
dark_shadows
I just heard on my local radio that no murder charges have been filed...and no manner of death yet.

[murdershewrote]

When I read the affidavit, AR refers to Brooke as "the problem" so it seems to me that Brooke may have said or did something, or found out something, that caused her to be a problem for them (understatement to say the least). Something happened to put the wheels of this murder in motion, not just another sexual tryst.

[MrsMush99]

I was wondering if it's possible that MJ was writing those emails that were from AR???? Is that a possibility at all?

[evelyn24]

Jacques and Gagnon are due back in court July 17th for a probable cause hearing.



Respectfully,
dark_shadows

Thank you.:blowkiss:

[becca]

I'll bet the contraption comes with batteries.
But, I have no interest in looking at it again. :(

doing research into the machine and have found it uses electricity.

[Medea]

When I read the affidavit, AR refers to Brooke as "the problem" so it seems to me that Brooke may have said or did something, or found out something, that caused her to be a problem for them (understatement to say the least). Something happened to put the wheels of this murder in motion, not just another sexual tryst.

I must have missed that about AR calling Brooke 'the problem...very teling.

[Spazkat9696]

Every time I think I catching up I find a new thread. You guys are really moving with this case.

[Liz]

http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338

(snip)
The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27


Thanks for the info and links, SuziQ (and Starr)! :)

[evelyn24]

The 26th?

Yes. I read it to mean he flew from Texas to Alabama on the 26th.

[MrsMush99]

Every time I think I catching up I find a new thread. You guys are really moving with this case.

Yes it's very hard to keep up. I can't wait for my kiddos to go back to school, LOL.

[MrsMush99]

When I read the affidavit, AR refers to Brooke as "the problem" so it seems to me that Brooke may have said or did something, or found out something, that caused her to be a problem for them (understatement to say the least). Something happened to put the wheels of this murder in motion, not just another sexual tryst.

I was getting the feeling that maybe the murder wasn't intended. That he was trying to abuse her and she fought back and that's when he killed her. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe he planned to kill her all along.

[RR0004]

Holy crap...we were on Brooke's MySpace accounts on the 26th (thanks to busylady)...and we noticed the changes that were being made...I have to go back and read thread 1

[Medea]

The only reason I'm inclined against the theory that Brooke was killed to keep her from exposing Jacques is the length of the planning time..several weeks. How could Jacques have been sure Brooke would not tell over such a long period of time? If he feared she would expose him wouldn't he kill her sooner rather than later?

[SuziQ]

I was wondering if it's possible that MJ was writing those emails that were from AR???? Is that a possibility at all?

It's pretty clear in the affidavits that it is AR that was communicating by email. Things discussed she actually did.

[RR0004]

when i read the affidavit, ar refers to brooke as "the problem" so it seems to me that brooke may have said or did something, or found out something, that caused her to be a problem for them (understatement to say the least). Something happened to put the wheels of this murder in motion, not just another sexual tryst.
ita!!

[MrsMush99]

It's pretty clear in the affidavits that it is AR that was communicating by email. Things discussed she actually did.

Thank you. I only read one affidavit. That was enough for me. Maybe I'll read through the rest tonight.

[RR0004]

The only reason I'm inclined against the theory that Brooke was killed to keep her from exposing Jacques is the length of the planning time..several weeks. How could Jacques have been sure Brooke would not tell over such a long period of time? If he feared she would expose him wouldn't he kill her sooner rather than later?
Remember the change in Denise's behavior that was referred to in the emails...sure sounds like the winds of change were blowing. something was going on...and the fact that Denise pretty much caught AR and MJ...we still don't know exactly when that happened. Brooke was the only normal one here...

[SuziQ]

I was getting the feeling that maybe the murder wasn't intended. That he was trying to abuse her and she fought back and that's when he killed her. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe he planned to kill her all along.

All the premeditated actions by MJ indicates that he had no intention of letting Brooke live. One, she would have been injured so badly and would have told who hurt her. And two, there would have been no need to frame someone with their semen if she was going to be alive.

[MrsMush99]

All the premeditated actions by MJ indicates that he had no intention of letting Brooke live. One, she would have been injured so badly and would have told who hurt her. And two, there would have been no need to frame someone with their semen if she was going to be alive.

You're right. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around everything. A LOT of information is out there. Thanks.

[dark_shadows]

I just heard on my local radio that no murder charges have been filed...and no manner of death yet.
My very dearest RR,:blowkiss:
The date of the hearing for both was just said on my local news.
It was stated that both would return to court on July 17th for a probable cause hearing. AKA a preliminary hearing.


Love and Respect,
dak_shadows

[Amster]

IF RG took the porn with him to Alabama....what was in the safe?? This is all too demented.

[twinkiesmom]

[QUOTE=galvino;2357917]Medea- I'm with you! I think he certainly had prior knowledge of the abduction, was possibly planning to go to VT to 'be there for the family' and maybe planning to rape Brooke while there. I really believe MJ didn't plan to kill her right away, and planned to keep her alive a while and hidden to use as a peice of meat along with his pal GAGnon, but something went terribly wrong. [QUOTE]

No way...If Gagnon was going to be part of the torture prior to ther murder....if there was any plan to keep her alive for days or weeks...he would have been in place closer to Vermont before her death, not after the fact.

With Gagnon's interest in child porn, I think it's likely he already abused Brooke, whereas Jacques had abused his own stepdaughter and looking for novelty.

Clearly the connection is the photos, and Jacques getting someone with a clean record (but dirty hands) to access the Myspace.

[SuziQ]

Thank you. I only read one affidavit. That was enough for me. Maybe I'll read through the rest tonight.

I wouldn't blame you if you don't read it. It's really sick.

[galvino]

OK- I 'went to Cullman' and , unless he had a private plane, he had to fly into B'ham, Chatanooga or Huntsville (with a stop probably in ATL to change planes) and then rent a car and drive. He was a busy lil beaver/jet setter, wasn't he? I'l bet he left skid marks all over the place.

[Starr58]

I feel RG was directly involved in Brooke's death, that KG was involved indirectly with full knowledge of Brooke's death and RG & KG were the reason the date needed to be changed.

I feel that RG was communicating via his cellphone with both KG and MJ while moving between Texas, Alabama & Vermont. He was even able to attend church with JB on Sunday in Vermont. LOL

[Medea]

Remember the change in Denise's behavior that was referred to in the emails...sure sounds like the winds of change were blowing. something was going on...and the fact that Denise pretty much caught AR and MJ...we still don't know exactly when that happened. Brooke was the only normal one here...


Yeah, I thought of that..if the towel incident was fairly recent it might have been the last straw for Denise [one can only hope]...Jacques world was threating to crash...if Brooke had some suspicions or if she knew something..that could have been the trigger.

I'm finding it kind of hard to imagine that Gagnon whose got child porn all over the place never abused Brooke during the time he lived with her.

[evelyn24]

Holy crap...we were on Brooke's MySpace accounts on the 26th (thanks to busylady)...and we noticed the changes that were being made...I have to go back and read thread 1

Yep. I remember the last login date changing to the 26th, and silly me thought LE was accessing the account.

[LaLaw2000]

I also think Kevin has made a deal and they aren't releasing that info yet. And I believe AR has also told the truth by now..it wouldn't be too hard for FBI to get the whole thruth from AR..she is only 14...very savy..but still 14.



http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080707/NEWS/788617338


This article states GAGNON flew from San Antonio, to Cullman and then from Cullman to Vermont.

Thanks, DeltaDawn!
Kevin made the changes to Brooke's MySpace from his house, and I really believe that. Gagnon couldn't do it - not too smart.
I do not know what spot to assign to whom: Dumb, Dumber, Dumbest!
This is a good first step for AR if she has come clean with the FBI. She will probably be out of sight until the trial. Is that her Grandma's house where the U Haul is?
Got to go for a while. Thanks, again!

[Carrington]

I am absolutely positive I read they gave AR immunity.
The article was a few days ago, hope someone else remembers.
I thought at the time, hmmmm they must have threatened her with jail.

IMO

[RR0004]

IF RG took the porn with him to Alabama....what was in the safe?? This is all too demented.
You are so right...this poor girl is dead and all they keep doing is trying to cover their a**es. Then good 'ole MJ shows up in church. I wish G-d had struck him down then!!!

[MrsMush99]

I wouldn't blame you if you don't read it. It's really sick.

I know. From what I read it was pretty sick.

In the other thread it was being discussed about AR's role. I completely understand that she has been abused since she was 9 however, just a little bit of what I read and have read here I believe that she is an accessory to murder. I'm sorry but I don't care how old she is. She set that poor girl up. Brooke thought she was going to a party. If she was an adult wouldn't she have been held accountable???

[Medea]

I feel RG was directly involved in Brooke's death, that KG was involved indirectly with full knowledge of Brooke's death and RG & KG were the reason the date needed to be changed.

I feel that RG was communicating via his cellphone with both KG and MJ while moving between Texas, Alabama & Vermont. He was even able to attend church with JB on Sunday in Vermont. LOL


How?

Gagnon flew FROM texas to Alabama on the 26th.

Brooke was last seen 9amish on the 25th. That would mean he would have to drive from Vermont to Texas on the 25th so he can fly out the next day on the 26th.

He can't have flown or the Feds would know it. He could only have driven. I think the timeframe is too tight.

[MrsMush99]

I am absolutely positive I read they gave AR immunity.
The article was a few days ago, hope someone else remembers.
I thought at the time, hmmmm they must have threatened her with jail.

IMO

Ahhh thank you. I was wondering if charges were going to be brought against her.

[RR0004]

Yep. I remember the last login date changing to the 26th, and silly me thought LE was accessing the account.
That's right! We thought it had to be LE looking in. OMG!! If LE was watching us, then they would have known, too (of course, if they didn't know already).

[RR0004]

How?

Gagnon flew FROM texas to Alabama on the 26th.

Brooke was last seen 9amish on the 25th. That would mean he would have to drive from Vermont to Texas on the 25th so he can fly out the next day on the 26th.

He can't have flown or the Feds would know it. He could only have driven. I think the timeframe is too tight.
They very well may know it...they're not letting out squat IMO.

[becca]

I have a feeling these guys were not as under the radar as they thought. especially knowing the FBI... those guys don't take crimes against children lightly.

[jnodrog]

who knows who really buried Brooke, MJ could have killed her, then stored her, or just stored her, then knowing he was being watched, called RG to cover up his stuff then come to Vermont to take care of Brooke, RG would not have been watched at first and i think all the action was around floating bridge on the 27 th leaving Crocker Rd wide open for access. Then on the 28 th they got MJ computer stuff i believe or late the 27 th.

Allen

[evelyn24]

Thanks, DeltaDawn!
Kevin made the changes to Brooke's MySpace from his house, and I really believe that. Gagnon couldn't do it - not too smart.
I do not know what spot to assign to whom: Dumb, Dumber, Dumbest!
This is a good first step for AR if she has come clean with the FBI. She will probably be out of sight until the trial. Is that her Grandma's house where the U Haul is?
Got to go for a while. Thanks, again!

Gagnon ADMITTED to the FBI that he is the one who accessed Brooke's myspace account on the 25th from Texas, it was at the request of MJ.

[RR0004]

I believe the Feds are holding a whole lot back (there goes my gut again!).

[Carrington]

I feel RG was directly involved in Brooke's death, that KG was involved indirectly with full knowledge of Brooke's death and RG & KG were the reason the date needed to be changed.

I feel that RG was communicating via his cellphone with both KG and MJ while moving between Texas, Alabama & Vermont. He was even able to attend church with JB on Sunday in Vermont. LOL

The nerve of him going to CHURCH with Brooke's father.
Just makes me outraged.
IMO

[Medea]

They very well may know it...they're not letting out squat IMO.

I think no way he was in Vermont on the 25th.

They've released a ton of details, why, if they know he was in Vermont on the 25th wouldnt they have included it in the probable cause affidavidt for the obstruction of justice charge?

[RR0004]

who knows who really buried Brooke, MJ could have killed her, then stored her, or just stored her, then knowing he was being watched, called RG to cover up his stuff then come to Vermont to take care of Brooke, RG would not have been watched at first and i think all the action was around floating bridge on the 27 th leaving Crocker Rd wide open for access. Then on the 28 th they got MJ computer stuff i believe or late the 27 th.

Allen
Could very well be. I'm not a master criminal by any stretch, but even I could have thought this out better. Something must have gone very wrong (like thinking they could pull it off to begin with)!!

[becca]

I believe the Feds are holding a whole lot back (there goes my gut again!).

I agree with that... there is alot more going on than they are letting out.

ETA there are three states involved, three FBI field offices, then the local LE and county LE and who ever else. There is plenty going on that we don't know yet.

[RR0004]

I think no way he was in Vermont on the 25th.

They've released a ton of details, why, if they know he was in Vermont on the 25th wouldnt they have included it in the probable cause affidavidt for the obstruction of justice charge?
Maybe they don't know his role on the 25th?

[evelyn24]

I don't think Gagnon was in Vermont at the time of Brooke's disappearance and murder.
I'm not saying he didn't know about her murder via MJ.

[Medea]

who knows who really buried Brooke, MJ could have killed her, then stored her, or just stored her, then knowing he was being watched, called RG to cover up his stuff then come to Vermont to take care of Brooke, RG would not have been watched at first and i think all the action was around floating bridge on the 27 th leaving Crocker Rd wide open for access. Then on the 28 th they got MJ computer stuff i believe or late the 27 th.

Allen


Now that IS possible. Jacques knows they're watching him...Gagnon is covering their tracks via computer on the 25-26th... and he shows up...on the 27th he's got no record, no one knows about his child porn or his abuse of AR..nobody would be watching him!!

He could have absolutely been involved in destroying physical evidence up to and including burrying Brooke.

[HarvestMoon]

I know. From what I read it was pretty sick.

In the other thread it was being discussed about AR's role. I completely understand that she has been abused since she was 9 however, just a little bit of what I read and have read here I believe that she is an accessory to murder. I'm sorry but I don't care how old she is. She set that poor girl up. Brooke thought she was going to a party. If she was an adult wouldn't she have been held accountable???

Not only did she set her young cousin up, she was willing to help in her juvenile boyfriend taking the fall.

[MCDRAW]

OK- I 'went to Cullman' and , unless he had a private plane, he had to fly into B'ham, Chatanooga or Huntsville (with a stop probably in ATL to change planes) and then rent a car and drive. He was a busy lil beaver/jet setter, wasn't he? I'l bet he left skid marks all over the place.


Your right Cullman has a small airport. I have never heard of any commercial planes landing there. I will have to ask around.

[VTGirl007]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, have been reading along but may have some input from time to time so am poking my head in to introduce myself. I grew up in and still live in Orange County, about 45 minutes away from where all of this took place.

I'm usually proud to be a Vermonter but seeing how our system "treated" MJ and allowed this to happen... I'm planning to be very vocal in demanding better laws to protect our children.

Thank you all for the time and energy you have put into this.

[jnodrog]

MJ had RG come to Vermont or back here for something they talked for quite sometime, they made a plan then too i think because MJ would be watched.


Allen

[galvino]

Good thoughts jnodrog and Medea. Could very well be so. Would LE release that info if they found out after the fact that RG helped bury her (ie would it have come out in today's hearing?)

[Amster]

IF A.R. is being truthful about note under pillow, phone call. etc., then she must have already been messed up, mentally, at age 8-9. Was she isolated from other family? Did she go to school? How long had MJ been in her life? I imagine she was told she and her mom would be killed if she told....wouldn't fear and the abuse cause her to become withdrawn? A personality change? And, nobody noticed?? If she is telling the truth, then I think she was already being abused by the time she got the note...

[RR0004]

They got the both of them right where they wanted them...in Federal Court...where they can seek the death penalty...smart move IMO. They have time now to develop their cases. They knew at the last press conference (Thursday) they weren't going to reveal much information about her death. Just makes me wonder why not? If Jacques was guilty of killing her, why not just charge him? I think they're going to try to go for a double dunk...if not a full blown murder charge for RG...then an accessory to murder.

[jep0216]

I am absolutely positive I read they gave AR immunity.
The article was a few days ago, hope someone else remembers.
I thought at the time, hmmmm they must have threatened her with jail.

IMO


There was something on Nancy Grace a few nights ago where she was talking to a lawyer expert who suspected that AR would be given immunity, but I don't think they have said she actually has yet.

[RR0004]

Now that IS possible. Jacques knows they're watching him...Gagnon is covering their tracks via computer on the 25-26th... and he shows up...on the 27th he's got no record, no one knows about his child porn or his abuse of AR..nobody would be watching him!!

He could have absolutely been involved in destroying physical evidence up to and including burrying Brooke.
Oh...what if g-d forbid Brooke was kept alive those 3 days?

[evelyn24]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, have been reading along but may have some input from time to time so am poking my head in to introduce myself. I grew up in and still live in Orange County, about 45 minutes away from where all of this took place.

I'm usually proud to be a Vermonter but seeing how our system "treated" MJ and allowed this to happen... I'm planning to be very vocal in demanding better laws to protect our children.

Thank you all for the time and energy you have put into this.

WELCOME!!

Here is a great thread about changing the Vermont law:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66865

:)

[galvino]

:seeya:Welcome VTGirl007- nice to have another 'boots on the ground' sluether!

[becca]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, have been reading along but may have some input from time to time so am poking my head in to introduce myself. I grew up in and still live in Orange County, about 45 minutes away from where all of this took place.

I'm usually proud to be a Vermonter but seeing how our system "treated" MJ and allowed this to happen... I'm planning to be very vocal in demanding better laws to protect our children.

Thank you all for the time and energy you have put into this.
Welcome aboard.... don't feel to bad I'm in Florida... the land of SOs... until Jessie's law was passed.

[jnodrog]

Good thoughts jnodrog and Medea. Could very well be so. Would LE release that info if they found out after the fact that RG helped bury her (ie would it have come out in today's hearing?)
I dont think that would be let out yet, but we all know now that MJ led LE the absolute opposite direction of Crocker Rd. Opening up time for someone else.


Allen

[RR0004]

IF A.R. is being truthful about note under pillow, phone call. etc., then she must have already been messed up, mentally, at age 8-9. Was she isolated from other family? Did she go to school? How long had MJ been in her life? I imagine she was told she and her mom would be killed if she told....wouldn't fear and the abuse cause her to become withdrawn? A personality change? And, nobody noticed?? If she is telling the truth, then I think she was already being abused by the time she got the note...
IIRC...somewhere...can't remember where now...it was said that AR and Brooke were like sisters.

[evelyn24]

MJ had RG come to Vermont or back here for something they talked for quite sometime, they made a plan then too i think because MJ would be watched.


Allen

When did MJ "find" the sneaker, panties and semen tissue??
Could Gagnon have planted it while LE were questioning and watching MJ and AR???

[Liz]

:Welcome-12-june: to websleuths, VTGirl007! :)

[RR0004]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, have been reading along but may have some input from time to time so am poking my head in to introduce myself. I grew up in and still live in Orange County, about 45 minutes away from where all of this took place.

I'm usually proud to be a Vermonter but seeing how our system "treated" MJ and allowed this to happen... I'm planning to be very vocal in demanding better laws to protect our children.

Thank you all for the time and energy you have put into this.
Thank you...and stick around!

[RR0004]

When did MJ "find" the sneaker, panties and semen tissue??
Could Gagnon had planted it while LE were questioning and watching MJ and AR???
the 26th

[raeann]

Another newbie here........ trying to keep up with the new info. I have been reading since the beginning and remember that someone posted about a missing 12yo girl from the Cullman area from December 2007. Now that it is obvious that RG remained connected to that area and traveled there, I am very suspicious about that young girl's disappearance. Especially since MJ traveled to Texas. That makes it obvious that they both could easily have gone to Alabama at the same time. Perhaps when MJ (pretending to be Rauel) was "traveling in Africa" which by the way is a creepy reference to Brooke's MySpace listing of Cullman, EGYPT.

[jnodrog]

if RG could travel from texas to alabama to vermont between the 25 - 27 whos says he wasnt here early am on the 25 th, id really be interested to know the timeline of his flights.


Allen

[Medea]

Good thoughts jnodrog and Medea. Could very well be so. Would LE release that info if they found out after the fact that RG helped bury her (ie would it have come out in today's hearing?)


It sounds like they are still waiting on COD and whether any forensics exist to tie Jacques or anyone else to Brooke's murder.

So far Jacques is still not charged with Brooke's murder, only her kidnapping. So, I would say that means they don't have enough evidence for that yet, either physical evidence or more admissions from AR or Gagnon.

I think if they had evidence that Gagnon burried Brooke, they would charge him. But, now it seems at least very possible that he DID destroy actual evidence while he was in Vermont and not under any suspicion that we know of when he got there.

As I think someone else said, Jacques could have planted the clothes to ensure LE was looking in that area to free up Gagnon to destroy the real crime scene/evidence.

[w1df10wr]

When did MJ "find" the sneaker, panties and semen tissue??
Could Gagnon have planted it while LE were questioning and watching MJ and AR???

Those items were found on the 26th - http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66962

[jnodrog]

When did MJ "find" the sneaker, panties and semen tissue??
Could Gagnon have planted it while LE were questioning and watching MJ and AR???
i believe that was found on the 26 th leading everyone the wrong way.
i dont think anyone has said whos blood it was just the semen.


Allen

[evelyn24]

the 26th

okay..so that rules out Gagnon planting Brooke's things and the semen.

I'm not sure RG would touch Brooke's dead body to bury her. If he didn't take part in killing her, why would he risk tying himself to a murder by doing something like that?

[SailorMoon]

I agree. I think something went way wrong...Brooke died and they had to backpedal fast. But then...when I read the emails it sounds like he plans on killing her from the get go.

Jesus, can this case get any stranger?

So that would mean on the 25th, in Texas, he accesses her account, the phone calls between he and Jacques were the night/early morning of the 25/26...some time he then get in a car and drives to Alabama, where the next day, 26th he again attempts to access her account??????????????????????? WTF.

[Medea]

okay..so that rules out Gagnon planting Brooke's things and the semen.

I'm not sure RG would touch Brooke's dead body to bury her. If he didn't take part in killing her, why would he risk tying himself to a murder by doing something like that?

Same reason he agreed to attempt to falsify her Myspace page from two separate states. I can only think of two choices, either Jacques blackmailed him with what he already had on him re: porn and AR, or he had advance knowledge of the abduction plan, which could make him legally at the very least of conspiracy to commit kidnapping.

[RR0004]

Another newbie here........ trying to keep up with the new info. I have been reading since the beginning and remember that someone posted about a missing 12yo girl from the Cullman area from December 2007. Now that it is obvious that RG remained connected to that area and traveled there, I am very suspicious about that young girl's disappearance. Especially since MJ traveled to Texas. That makes it obvious that they both could easily have gone to Alabama at the same time. Perhaps when MJ (pretending to be Rauel) was "traveling in Africa" which by the way is a creepy reference to Brooke's MySpace listing of Cullman, EGYPT.
Welcome! There were other references to trips as well. Hmmmmmmm!

[RR0004]

It sounds like they are still waiting on COD and whether any forensics exist to tie Jacques or anyone else to Brooke's murder.

So far Jacques is still not charged with Brooke's murder, only her kidnapping. So, I would say that means they don't have enough evidence for that yet, either physical evidence or more admissions from AR or Gagnon.

I think if they had evidence that Gagnon burried Brooke, they would charge him. But, now it seems at least very possible that he DID destroy actual evidence while he was in Vermont and not under any suspicion that we know of when he got there.

As I think someone else said, Jacques could have planted the clothes to ensure LE was looking in that area to free up Gagnon to destroy the real crime scene/evidence.
Well, it makes more sense than what that dummy did...planting evidence in a baggie. Pleeeeez!

[galvino]

jnodrog, Where would RG fly to in Vt- Burlington? If he rented a car at that airport, how long would it take to get to Brooke's mom's house (or MJ"s)?

I may go online here and see costs of next day tix for San antonio to B'ham, then B'ham to ? VT- also looking for schedules. Should I go on travelocity or somewhere else?

[jnodrog]

Well, it makes more sense than what that dummy did...planting evidence in a baggie. Pleeeeez!
my understanding is it wasnt in the baggy, but the baggy got left behind, complete screw up there.

Allen

[RR0004]

jnodrog, Where would RG fly to in Vt- Burlington? If he rented a car at that airport, how long would it take to get to Brooke's mom's house (or MJ"s)?

I may go online here and see costs of next day tix for San antonio to B'ham, then B'ham to ? VT- also looking for schedules. Should I go on travelocity or somewhere else?
try kayak.com

[calidreamin]

Well, it makes more sense than what that dummy did...planting evidence in a baggie. Pleeeeez!

I know now what kind of an idiot leaves a baggie at the evidence scene?

[jnodrog]

jnodrog, Where would RG fly to in Vt- Burlington? If he rented a car at that airport, how long would it take to get to Brooke's mom's house (or MJ"s)?

I may go online here and see costs of next day tix for San antonio to B'ham, then B'ham to ? VT- also looking for schedules. Should I go on travelocity or somewhere else?
about a little more than an hour he would be in randolph from burlington.


Allen

[evelyn24]

I agree. I think something went way wrong...Brooke died and they had to backpedal fast. But then...when I read the emails it sounds like he plans on killing her from the get go.



I think it's pretty clear his intention was for Brooke never to come back home or be found alive, or else she'd be able to contradict all of his lies and fake evidence (semen) that he concocted for over a month.

[RR0004]

my understanding is it wasnt in the baggy, but the baggy got left behind, complete screw up there.

Allen
Thanks...I never read about the baggie in an article...just here on the board...who would do something so stupid...nevermind....that question answers itself.

[evelyn24]

Well, it makes more sense than what that dummy did...planting evidence in a baggie. Pleeeeez!

The tissue was not in the baggie at the scene when LE retrieved the items "found" by MJ.
The baggie was found around the area, but the tissue was placed with Brooke's sneaker and panties.

[raeann]

There would be numerous ways to travel out of San Antonio on a moments notice, especially on Southwest Airlines. They have a business type frequent flyer membership which allows one way tickets with full refund for any changes etc., for that trip it would most likely not be too expensive.

[dark_shadows]

Gagnon and Jacques are not allowed to send letters back and forth to get their stories straight.
It used to be that inmates could send letters to each other, but that was stopped a few years ago. No mail is allowed to be sent inmate to inmate.
The only mail that cannot be read sent to and from a federal inmate is legal correspondence.
The Feds can request that Springfield (where Jacques is held) and St.Albans (where Gagnon is held) direct all incoming and outgoing correspondence except legal mail to them for review.

Just thought I would post this in case posters were wondering if the 2 are able to communicate.

Respectfully,
dark_shadows

[MCDRAW]

dark_shadows,

Thank

[VTGirl007]

Thank you for the kind welcomes everyone!

As I said, I have been reading along and I have had a couple of thoughts.

Re: Maybe Brooke knew something and that's why they had to get rid of her-
It doesn't seem like Brooke would willingly spend the night there and then stay alone with those two after her aunt went to work if she had any idea what was going on there.

Re: AR and how she could be a willing accomplice-
Besides being afraid of the ramifications if she didn't cooperate, somewhere in her poor abused psyche she probably learned to equate the attention she was getting from MJ as fatherly love and it made her feel special. Perhaps she resented that he was no longer satisfied with her and turning his attention to Brooke?

[MCDRAW]

dark_shadows, thank you for your post. No idea what happened with the above.

[Amster]

I wonder if it's true that A.R. and Denise were in counciling?

[murdershewrote]

it just seems that if you're going to taser someone and use a horrific sex machine on them, and who knows what else...I doubt you're planning to keep the person alive to tell about it. And why plant the BF's semen around as a frame up if you were going to let her live. After getting set up like he did, I can't imagine he's not singing to the Feds...they were going to let him take the fall for this.

[Starr58]

When did MJ "find" the sneaker, panties and semen tissue??
Could Gagnon have planted it while LE were questioning and watching MJ and AR???


Could MJ and AR planted it while RG was taking care of Brooke???

[fran]

Same reason he agreed to attempt to falsify her Myspace page from two separate states. I can only think of two choices, either Jacques blackmailed him with what he already had on him re: porn and AR, or he had advance knowledge of the abduction plan, which could make him legally at the very least of conspiracy to commit kidnapping.

I think RG didn't know about Brooke until AFTER the fact. He most likely found out from the flurry of phone calls from MJ the night and early morning hours after she was reported missing. That may well be in part why, he was so upset over her disappearance as one of his roommates stated.

But there's must be some other reason he stopped off in Alabama prior to going on to Vt. Some type of instructions or whatever from MJ? I find it hard to believe he just stopped off to access her MySpace or look over his property or browse through his stored pornography. No,.........something is up with that.

I also think there's much more to this Kevin helping Gagnon by allegedly throwing away a safe. Nahhhh........I'm not buying that. People just don't do favors for someone who's involved in a high profile case like this without a reason,.............ie....involvement? Or maybe Kevin and some of his relatives are somehow involved?

Too many coincidences, IMO.......Too many things to be considered coincidence, but sound more like m.u.r.d.e.r.:(

JMHO
fran

[twinkiesmom]

[QUOTE=VTGirl007;2358116]
Re: Maybe Brooke knew something and that's why they had to get rid of her-
It doesn't seem like Brooke would willingly spend the night there and then stay alone with those two after her aunt went to work if she had any idea what was going on there.[QUOTE]

Don't forget that they were gaslighting AR, and not everything in the emails should be taken as fact. For example, they could have told AR that Brooke was a problem to Breckenridge, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily so.

[Starr58]

if RG could travel from texas to alabama to vermont between the 25 - 27 whos says he wasnt here early am on the 25 th, id really be interested to know the timeline of his flights.


Allen

Me 2!!!

[edgeofnight]

I have been reading here on many different cases, and am amazed at the dedication and hard work. I have a question about Brooke being identified through dental records. Am I wrong about she could not be identified through the records? Either she doesn't have any dental records which would seem unlikely, or maybe her teeth were destroyed in some way which is what my daughter mentioned to me could be a possibility.

[close_enough]

Chica posted this on the last thread.....

The way I understood it, the note was from MJ (posing as a third person) talking about 'dad'...the fictitious man writing the email is worried about AR's dad...he wanted AR to come up with a plan so her dad (MJ-who is actually writing the email, unbeknownst to her!) could have at least a few hours with Brooke...this makes me sick!!

thanks...this makes sense...what a POS:mad:

[Medea]

I think RG didn't know about Brooke until AFTER the fact. He most likely found out from the flurry of phone calls from MJ the night and early morning hours after she was reported missing. That may well be in part why, he was so upset over her disappearance as one of his roommates stated.

But there's must be some other reason he stopped off in Alabama prior to going on to Vt. Some type of instructions or whatever from MJ? I find it hard to believe he just stopped off to access her MySpace or look over his property or browse through his stored pornography. No,.........something is up with that.

I also think there's much more to this Kevin helping Gagnon by allegedly throwing away a safe. Nahhhh........I'm not buying that. People just don't do favors for someone who's involved in a high profile case like this without a reason,.............ie....involvement? Or maybe Kevin and some of his relatives are somehow involved?

Too many coincidences, IMO.......Too many things to be considered coincidence, but sound more like m.u.r.d.e.r.:(

JMHO
fran


That's what I initially thought. But him getting on a plane to Alabama and accessing her account from a public library!!! on top of accessing it from Texas. This is a seriously motivated guy. Would you really go to that much effort to help someone who called you up and said 'hey, I accidentally killed your former step daughter, can you help me out"...And the guy gets on an airplane the next day?!

[MCDRAW]

I am watching my local news, I can not believe that they haven't mentioned the Brooke Bennett case and it's ties to Cullman.

[dark_shadows]

dark_shadows, thank you for your post. No idea what happened with the above.
My very dearest MCDRAW,:blowkiss:
Thank-you so much for taking the time to read it.

Love and Respect,
dak_shadows

[luthersmama]

about a little more than an hour he would be in randolph from burlington.


Allen

Isn't Manchester NH closer?

[MCDRAW]

That's what I initially thought. But him getting on a plane to Alabama and accessing her account from a public library!!! on top of accessing it from Texas. This is a seriously motivated guy. Would you really go to that much effort to help someone who called you up and said 'hey, I accidentally killed your former step daughter, can you help me out"...And the guy gets on an airplane the next day?!


I think Gagnon was trying to cover his butt.

[gigi2009]

I don't think they needed dental records. They are having a wake for her and also her mother "viewed" her.

Here's my 2 cents on the safe. We know Kevin's brother is a SO. WHat if Kevin didn't throw out the safe? What if his brother has it?

[fran]

That's what I initially thought. But him getting on a plane to Alabama and accessing her account from a public library!!! on top of accessing it from Texas. This is a seriously motivated guy. Would you really go to that much effort to help someone who called you up and said 'hey, I accidentally killed your former step daughter, can you help me out"...And the guy gets on an airplane the next day?!

I would imagine MJ used the 'one of us goes down, we all go down,' type of thing, referring to RG's encounter the previous year with AR.......PLUS, I think there's most likely a lot of porn back and forth.

Since we know that RG molested AR, we KNOW he is a SO. I can't remember all the statisitics, but recent articles I've read said that SOs usually have had at least 100 victims before they are caught. AND, although the SOs that go through their entire life NOT being detected, % wise is low of all SOs, the ones that go undetected do the MOST damage with the MOST victims.

That's something to think about.

JMHO
fran

[DeltaDawn]

Thank you DS for that info..so the two of them are flying blind now..wondering who stuck to the hastily contrived story and who did not.

Here are some random thoughts I have on this case.

1. Jacques from the beginning of planning knew he was going to kill Brooke. He is a violent pedo who equates sex with violence...rape is violence, rape of a child is even more violent..rape of a child resulting in death is the ultimate in violence for his kind. The machine was bought to use on her..maybe to use later on others.

2. AR has been raised since 9 years old to be a victim in a sado/ masochistic relationship.. She does not equate sex with love or fulfillment unless she is physically hurt in some respect during the act. As witnessed by email responses about her boyfriend spanking her and wanting to be f..'d real hard by the farmers helpers.

3. I know people are doubting the idea of films here vs pics..but what I think of with the internet and these people is web cam.. That would be perfect to send the vids, get stills and if you are hooked up vis INTERNET for remote viewing. I think they intended to film on webcam things happening to Brooke ..as they had to AR.

4. AR knew about the party and the take down tie up..but she believed Brooke was being integrated into this Breckenridge group. She thought by tie up..she would be helping in the sadistic idea of tyeing the vic for sexual pleasure. I do not think after Brooke went upstairs she ever saw AR again. From AR'S emails she does not seem to ever play the dominate role..she is looking for people to hurt her during sex..because that is how she has been raised.

5. Once something happened to Brooke AR was no longer the cover up person she had been..she was confused and felt betrayed and scared..that's why her story kept changing..she had no story really but the truth and couldn't stick with anything she came up with. I think that until Brooke's body was found MJ was telling her Brooke was hidden somewhere...not that she was dead.

6. I think that Kevin and Gagnon are in this up to their eyebrows..but I am not sure either realized MJ's intent was to go that far as to murder her. I think MJ knew that would be the outcome.

[galvino]

Okay- back from my visit to kayak.com -

If RG talked to MJ on the eve of the 25th (fairly late IIRC) then I think he had to leave early the next AM as I didn't see any direct flights after 8PM.

Thus, he would have to leave on eather a 5:45 flight, or 7:40 flight, arriving in B'ham @ 11:30 or so. Factor in getting a car and driving (not sure of the drive time- Macgraw?) then he would haul a** to his house, the Library (Cullman boasts a 21 min average commute time, so it seems to be a pretty small town) and back to B'ham to catch the 5ish flight that would land him in Burlington @ 11:20 PM. Then a 1hr commute to MJ's or CG's. WHEW! I have jet lag.

There are probably other round about ways to get from A to B involving other carriers, but I would think that timing of them all, and the fact that you'd have to go through points C,D, and E to get there AND you would be pooping in your britches, it would be even more nerve wracking and i'll bet those ticket agents remember a sweaty nervous man at the gates!

[SeriouslySearching]

Gosh, this keeps getting deeper and deeper. I never expected this new wrinkle with Ray Gagnon and Alabama. It tells me that RG is indeed privy to more information than we first gave him credit for knowing.

Going to Alabama from TX tells me that:

1. He knew she was dead.
2. He further knew that MJ abducted/tortured/murdered her.
3. He knew he had specific porn on the computer in Alabama he felt he had to access immediately and get rid of. (IMO, it had to be of Brooke earlier.)
4. He thought he could help throw off LE further by accessing her account in the public library in Cullman, AL on the 26th by making it appear it was Brooke.
5. It is possible that he was in VT when she was abducted and witnessed the torture/murder.
6. Kevin G. has a lot more explaining to do with his involvement of how much he knew and when he knew it...especially about the child porn in Alabama.

[dark_shadows]

Oh...what if g-d forbid Brooke was kept alive those 3 days?

My very dearest RR,:blowkiss:
Thank-you for this post. We will find out that answer when the autopsy results are in, or someone breaks.


Love and Respect,
dark_shadows

[close_enough]

This explains a little more...

While he was in court, federal prosecutors in Alabama charged him with possessing child pornography at his former home in Cullman, Ala.

In affidavits filed in Vermont, the FBI said Jacques changed a posting to Brooke’s MySpace account the night she was reported missing. Gagnon also accessed the account that night, but denied changing the posting, according to the affidavit.

In announcing the pornography charge, federal prosecutors in Birmingham, Ala., said Gagnon acknowledged trying to access the account again from a public computer in the Cullman library “on or about” June 26, the next day.

The complaint in Alabama said Gagnon flew from San Antonio to Cullman that day and on to Burlington on June 27.

It's from SuziQ's article she just posted.

yes, it does...thanks!

[dark_shadows]

Thank you DS for that info..so the two fo them are flying blind now..wondering who stuck to the hastily contrived story and who did not.

Here are some random thoughts I have on this case.

1. Jacques from the beginnning of planning knew he was going to kill Brooke. He is a violent pedo who eequates sex with violence...rape is violence, rape of a child is even more violent..rape of a child resulting in death is the ultimate in violence for his kind. The machine was bought to use on her..maybe to use later on others.

2. AR has been raised since 9 years old to be a victim in a sado/ maschismic relationship.. She does not equate sex with love or fullfillment unless she is physically hurt in some respect during the act. As witnessed by email responses about her boyfriend spanking her and wanting to be f..'d real hard by the farmers helpers.

3. I know people are doubting the idea of films here vs pics..but what I think of with the internet and these people is webcam.. That would be perfect to send the vids, get stills and if you are hooked up vis internet for remote viewing. I think they intended to film on webcam things happening to Brooke ..as they had to AR.

4. AR knew about the party and the take down tie up..but she believed Brooke was being integrated into this Breckenridge group. She thought by tie up..she would be helping in the sadistic idea of tieing the vic for sexual pleasure. I do not think Brooke went upstairs she ever saw her again. From her emails she does not seem to ever play the dominate role..she is looking for people to hurt her during sex..because that is how she has been raised.

5. Once something happened to Brooke AR was no longer the coverup person she had been..she was confused and felt betrayed and scared..that's why her story kept changing..she had no story really but the truth and couldn't stick with anything she came up with. I think that until Brooke's body was found MJ was telling her Brooke was hidden somewhere...not that she was dead.

6. I think that Kevin and Gagnon are in this up to their eyebrows..but I am not sure either relealized MJ's intent was to go that far as to murder her. I think MJ knew that would be the outcome.
My very dear DeltaDawn,:blowkiss:
Thank-you so very much.

Love and Respect,
dark_shadows

[Medea]

I think Gagnon was trying to cover his butt.


But what's he trying to cover?

If he did NOT know anything about any plan to harm Brooke, his former step daughter who he undoubtedly spent Christmas with and so forth. Wouldn't the smart thing be to destroy all of your child pornography and tell Jacques that you're sorry but you can't help him out? What's he going to do if Gagnon says no? Anything that Jacques has on Gagnon is going to implicate Jacques as well.

Granted, the stupidity of these guys is unparalleled, but the more I find out about Gagnon's actions from the 25th-27th, the more possible it seems that he had some kind of advance knowledge of the Brooke plan.

[gigi2009]

From what I undersatnd Kevin's brother the SO lives pretty close by. In a very well to do neighborhood by the way. These guys don't throw this stuff away. It is very valuable to them. I think they should get a warrant (they probably won't need one if the brother is on probabtion) and look for that missing safe. I think Kevin just drove it over to his brother's house or one of his businesses.

[gigi2009]

Here is a link http://https://records.txdps.state.tx.us/DPS_WEB/Sor/index.aspx?PageIndex=Display&SID=03740858

[close_enough]

When I read the affidavit, AR refers to Brooke as "the problem" so it seems to me that Brooke may have said or did something, or found out something, that caused her to be a problem for them (understatement to say the least). Something happened to put the wheels of this murder in motion, not just another sexual tryst.

i agree.....

[close_enough]

I must have missed that about AR calling Brooke 'the problem...very teling.

ok...i'm getting confused again...i lost track over the last 3-4 days...

[galvino]

From what I undersatnd Kevin's brother the SO lives pretty close by. In a very well to do neighborhood by the way. These guys don't throw this stuff away. It is very valuable to them. I think they should get a warrant (they probably won't need one if the brother is on probabtion) and look for that missing safe. I think Kevin just drove it over to his brother's house or one of his businesses.



Good thinking gigi! Or he could have thrown the safe in a dumpster nearer his Nephew's (the SO is his nephew btw), claiming it was in his own dumpster to deflect from nephew, and given his nephew the porn to hide elsewhere. Since Neph is a convicted kiddie porn owner, he probably won't keep it there, but since they don't want to throw it away, it's been given to someone else. Remember that game "Hot Potato" we played as kids? I've got a visual on that!

As I said on a much earlier thread, too bad Chester Stiles is already in the pokey, or he could bury it in the desert for some meth-head to find and turn over to the cops 3 months later!

[Jaded]

From what I undersatnd Kevin's brother the SO lives pretty close by. In a very well to do neighborhood by the way. These guys don't throw this stuff away. It is very valuable to them. I think they should get a warrant (they probably won't need one if the brother is on probabtion) and look for that missing safe. I think Kevin just drove it over to his brother's house or one of his businesses.

I agree with you that it is valuable to them. I think KG is in this up to his eyeballs, and MJ KNEW that Brooke wasn't going to live otherwise he wouldn't have been planning to frame the boyfriend of AR. Do we know who the boyfriend is and how old he is?

[adnoid]

Okay- back from my visit to kayak.com -

If RG talked to MJ on the eve of the 25th (fairly late IIRC) then I think he had to leave early the next AM as I didn't see any direct flights after 8PM.

Thus, he would have to leave on eather a 5:45 flight, or 7:40 flight, arriving in B'ham @ 11:30 or so. Factor in getting a car and driving (not sure of the drive time- Macgraw?) then he would haul a** to his house, the Library (Cullman boasts a 21 min average commute time, so it seems to be a pretty small town) and back to B'ham to catch the 5ish flight that would land him in Burlington @ 11:20 PM. Then a 1hr commute to MJ's or CG's. WHEW! I have jet lag.

There are probably other round about ways to get from A to B involving other carriers, but I would think that timing of them all, and the fact that you'd have to go through points C,D, and E to get there AND you would be pooping in your britches, it would be even more nerve wracking and i'll bet those ticket agents remember a sweaty nervous man at the gates!

Running here at the office but...Huntsville airport is closer to Cullman (no commercial service to the airport in Cullman and a charter would really stick out). Is there a decent number of flights through Huntsville airport?

[w1df10wr]

Okay- back from my visit to kayak.com -

If RG talked to MJ on the eve of the 25th (fairly late IIRC) then I think he had to leave early the next AM as I didn't see any direct flights after 8PM.

Thus, he would have to leave on eather a 5:45 flight, or 7:40 flight, arriving in B'ham @ 11:30 or so. Factor in getting a car and driving (not sure of the drive time- Macgraw?) then he would haul a** to his house, the Library (Cullman boasts a 21 min average commute time, so it seems to be a pretty small town) and back to B'ham to catch the 5ish flight that would land him in Burlington @ 11:20 PM. Then a 1hr commute to MJ's or CG's. WHEW! I have jet lag.

There are probably other round about ways to get from A to B involving other carriers, but I would think that timing of them all, and the fact that you'd have to go through points C,D, and E to get there AND you would be pooping in your britches, it would be even more nerve wracking and i'll bet those ticket agents remember a sweaty nervous man at the gates!

That's if he took a commerical flight. RG could have had access to a small aircraft and be a licensed pilot?

Thank you dark_shadows for the information you posted about RG & MJ communicating :)

[adnoid]

Your right Cullman has a small airport. I have never heard of any commercial planes landing there. I will have to ask around.

None.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/3A1

[galvino]

Okay- back from my visit to kayak.com -

If RG talked to MJ on the eve of the 25th (fairly late IIRC) then I think he had to leave early the next AM as I didn't see any direct flights after 8PM.

Thus, he would have to leave on eather a 5:45 flight, or 7:40 flight, arriving in B'ham @ 11:30 or so. Factor in getting a car and driving (not sure of the drive time- Macgraw?) then he would haul a** to his house, the Library (Cullman boasts a 21 min average commute time, so it seems to be a pretty small town) and back to B'ham to catch the 5ish flight that would land him in Burlington @ 11:20 PM. Then a 1hr commute to MJ's or CG's. WHEW! I have jet lag.

There are probably other round about ways to get from A to B involving other carriers, but I would think that timing of them all, and the fact that you'd have to go through points C,D, and E to get there AND you would be pooping in your britches, it would be even more nerve wracking and i'll bet those ticket agents remember a sweaty nervous man at the gates!



Okay- quoting myself- I think RG would be hauling fanny in order to do this, and PRAYING for on time flights and would only have a carry on, but I do think it is possible. Anyone else have thoughts on this timeline?

[gigi2009]

Thanks for the correction. I could've sworn they were brothers because of the age. I know Northwest has daily flights from San Antonio to Birmingham. And some of them are direct.

[DenverMom]

Okay- quoting myself- I think RG would be hauling fanny in order to do this, and PRAYING for on time flights and would only have a carry on, but I do think it is possible. Anyone else have thoughts on this timeline?

I think the article said he flew to AL on the 26th, and continued on the VT on the 27th, so he could have spent the night in AL.

[adnoid]

Ok, just watch your tushie.... we sure don't want you arrested for taking pictures of a protected scene. There are already enough people to keep track of in this story. lol

And on a serious note... make sure no angry relatives are around either.... you just never know how people might react.

Love the pics but PLEASE be careful. :)

That's no joke. I took a bunch of pictures here in Reno when Brianna Denison was murdered and my wife got a call from the Sheriff's office.

Then some total screwball accused me of being the murderer because I knew so much and was so involved, but that's a story for another day.

[galvino]

Running here at the office but...Huntsville airport is closer to Cullman (no commercial service to the airport in Cullman and a charter would really stick out). Is there a decent number of flights through Huntsville airport?


Maybe, but I would think Huntsevill (being a smaller airport) would not have as many flights as B'ham, so he would be more restricted. I'm tired from all this flying (LOL) so someone else can take over that leg of the trip!

[Jaded]

http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff-Appellant-Cross-Appellee,v.JOHN STEPHEN GROSENHEIDER, Defendant-Appellee-Cross-Appellant
IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS, FIFTH CIRCUIT - 200 F.3d 321 (5th Cir. 2000)
January 11, 2000

Brother of Kevin who likes the kiddie porn.

[dark_shadows]

That's if he took a commerical flight. RG could have had access to a small aircraft and be a licensed pilot?

Thank you dark_shadows for the information you posted about RG & MJ communicating :)
Dearest W1df10wr,:blowkiss:
You are very welcome. Reading the letters took me forever when the inmates were allowed to correspond with each other. We were all very happy when the policy was changed.
Love and Respect,
dark_shadows

[fran]

Running here at the office but...Huntsville airport is closer to Cullman (no commercial service to the airport in Cullman and a charter would really stick out). Is there a decent number of flights through Huntsville airport?

Several flights a day.


http://www.hsvairport.org/hia/arrival.html

[fran]

http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff-Appellant-Cross-Appellee,v.JOHN STEPHEN GROSENHEIDER, Defendant-Appellee-Cross-Appellant
IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS, FIFTH CIRCUIT - 200 F.3d 321 (5th Cir. 2000)
January 11, 2000

Brother of Kevin who likes the kiddie porn.

I'd be willing to be the FBI is already checking this out!:eek:

JMHO
fran

[Jaded]

I'd be willing to be the FBI is already checking this out!:eek:

JMHO
fran

From the appeal:

Grosenheider had subscribed to fifteen newsgroups, thirteen of which featured images and messages concerning child pornography.3 Siggins found that from these newsgroups Grosenheider had downloaded over 500 images of young females, ages ten to fourteen, engaged in various sexually explicit acts.

Seems his interest is young girls. I am starting to wonder if this isn't how they all know each other from the newsgroups that they were potentially getting porn from or selling to buyers there.

[murdershewrote]

deltadawn, the only problem I have is #5...why would she need to get her bf's semen on a hanky if she thought Brooke was alive or to be kept alive? Without that, I could see it, but there really would be no reason to plant the semen unless to blame bf for the rape and murder of Brooke. Am I missing something here?

[galvino]

I think the article said he flew to AL on the 26th, and continued on the VT on the 27th, so he could have spent the night in AL.


Then it would have been even EASIER to do! I don't know why my gut says he went on a direct flight to B'ham- I think if he flew into Huntsville it would not be direct- he'd have to puddle jump from ATL or Bham, and if he didn't leave ALA till the 27th, he would have more time and be able to take a direct flight. With all the panic he was experiencing, I just think he would not have wanted to add to his stress by making connections in this day and age of horrid flying experiences we've all had!

[gigi2009]

Where Kevin lives in relation to his POS SO nephew is about an hour and a half by car.
I also stumbled across a mention how someone that monitors the pedo message sites ( I personally wouldn't be able to keep my food down) that there's talk of concern for MJ and RG. How sick is that?

[galvino]

http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff-Appellant-Cross-Appellee,v.JOHN STEPHEN GROSENHEIDER, Defendant-Appellee-Cross-Appellant
IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS, FIFTH CIRCUIT - 200 F.3d 321 (5th Cir. 2000)
January 11, 2000

Brother of Kevin who likes the kiddie porn.


I believe from past posts and busylady's work that John Stephen is the son of Delno G (who is KG's brother), thus that makes him KG's nephew!

[Taximom]

http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff-Appellant-Cross-Appellee,v.JOHN STEPHEN GROSENHEIDER, Defendant-Appellee-Cross-Appellant
IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS, FIFTH CIRCUIT - 200 F.3d 321 (5th Cir. 2000)
January 11, 2000

Brother of Kevin who likes the kiddie porn.

Holy crap, good find, Jaded.
On October 24, 1997, Grosenheider dropped off his personal computer for repair work at Upgraders, a computer repair shop in Austin, Texas. While conducting afinal quality assurance check of the computer on Thursday, October 30, 1997, Upgraders employee Patrick Rowan (Rowan) discovered an unusually large number of image files, known as "JPG's", on the computer's hard drive. Knowing that JPG's in large numbers often depict pornographic images, Rowan opened some of these files and found between two and five images of child pornography. Rowan showed the images to his employer, Nathaniel Monks (Monks), the owner of Upgraders, as well as to two other employees, all of whom agreed that the images depicted child pornography. The repairs now complete, the Upgraders staff returned the computer to the retail store for pick up. Grosenheider retrieved the computer some time later that day.1 (http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/#fn1)
4 At approximately 9:00 a.m. the next morning, Friday, October 31, 1997, Monks contacted the Austin Police Department about the images Rowan had discovered. He spoke with Steven Meaux (Meaux), a vice officer, and informed Meaux about the images he had seen and the fact that the computer was now back in Grosenheider's possession. Meaux arrived at Upgraders thirty to forty-five minutes later. His primary purpose was to identify and interview the staff members who had seen the images. Meaux first entered the retail store, but an employee directed him to the tech shop, where Monks, Rowan, and the other employees who had seen the images were waiting. When Meaux got there, Monks told him that Grosenheider had brought the computer back that morning because the hard drive was still not operating properly, and that Rowan had begun working on it in the tech shop. As Meaux began to interview the assembled employees, another employee entered the tech shop and said that Grosenheider had again returned to the retail store, asking about his computer. Meaux told Monks to "stall" Grosenheider by telling him the store needed to order additional parts. Monks complied, and from the tech shop Meaux watched Grosenheider leave the retail store and drive away.

5 After Grosenheider left, Meaux completed his interview of Rowan, Monks, and the other employees about the images they had seen on the computer. They told him that the images depicted young girls approximately ten years old engaged in sexual conduct of various kinds. During this time, Rowan had been working on his repair of Grosenheider's computer, a process which took approximately fifteen minutes to complete. There is some dispute -which the district court expressly declined to resolve-whether Meaux then asked to see or Rowan offered to show him the pictures. In any event, Rowan attempted to access the images on the computer, only to find them "locked", that is, inaccessible without a password. The password lock had not appeared the day before. Unable to override the lock, Rowan asked another, more experienced Upgraders employee, Cary Richardson (Richardson), for help. By using another image viewing program, Richardson by-passed the lock. Rowan then showed Meaux the images he had seen the day before, as well as additional ones. After viewing between six and ten images, Meaux "had seen enough" to determine that the computer contained depictions of child pornography.

6 At approximately 11:00 a.m., Meaux took the computer from Upgraders to his office at the Austin Police Department, and contacted Theodore Siggins (Siggins), a special agent with the United States Customs Service. Meaux advised Siggins of his discovery and asked if Siggins was interested in pursuing a federal investigation. Sigginsagreed to take over the case, and immediately began preparing a search warrant affidavit. In his affidavit, Siggins recounted the discovery by the Upgraders staff of the pornographic images, Grosenheider's bringing the computer back to Upgraders, and the call from Monks to Meaux. He did not mention Meaux's viewing of the images or his seizure of the computer. At approximately 4:30 p.m. that afternoon, Siggins applied for and received a warrant to search the computer from a United States Magistrate Judge.

7 After obtaining the warrant, Siggins secured the computer from Meaux and took it to Upgraders, where he informed Monks that he had a warrant for the computer and would return it to Upgraders once he had finished searching it. Siggins then took the computer back to his office and made a backup image of the computer's entire hard drive. He analyzed the image on one of the government's computers, and found that Grosenheider had subscribed to Forte Agent, an on-line service that enables subscribers to access various "newsgroups" on the Internet.2 (http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/#fn2) Grosenheider had subscribed to fifteen newsgroups, thirteen of which featured images and messages concerning child pornography.3 (http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/#fn3) Siggins found that from these newsgroups Grosenheider had downloaded over 500 images of young females, ages ten to fourteen, engaged in various sexually explicit acts. Grosenheider had also established over 250 files, each of which contained at least one image of child pornography and sometimes included textual commentary with the image. Siggins determined further that Grosenheider had viewed many of these images more than once because the "creation date" on the files sometimes differed from the "last access date", meaning that the file had been modified or viewed after being downloaded. Based on these findings, Siggins applied for and received another warrant to search Grosenheider's home in Austin.

8 On the following Monday, November 3, 1997, Siggins returned the computer to Upgraders in anticipation of a "controlled delivery." Grosenheider's wife picked up the computer from Upgraders that same day and took it back to their home. Federal agents followed Mrs. Grosenheider to the residence; upon her arrival, they executed the search warrant. The agents seized the computer, but did not find any additional child pornography at the residence.

(MUCH more at link) :eek:

Note the ages: 10-14 yrs of age. GAG

[galvino]

Where Kevin lives in relation to his POS SO nephew is about an hour and a half by car.
I also stumbled across a mention how someone that monitors the pedo message sites ( I personally wouldn't be able to keep my food down) that there's talk of concern for MJ and RG. How sick is that?



That IS sick! I wonder who is monitering them? Perverted Justice (of Dateline fame?) I may have to mosey over and check it out!

[Jaded]

Where Kevin lives in relation to his POS SO nephew is about an hour and a half by car.
I also stumbled across a mention how someone that monitors the pedo message sites ( I personally wouldn't be able to keep my food down) that there's talk of concern for MJ and RG. How sick is that?

That to me sounds as though they were involved in the trading or selling of kiddie porn. So it's possible that he could have taken the safe to JG. Hope the FBI is searching his residence as well.

It's very sick IMO. Pedos can sniff each other out and know how to find each other. It's disgusting and the internet just makes it easier for them to band together.

[gigi2009]

WHOA! I just saw on Fox News gagnon being escorted in handcuffs!! hang on a sec, I paused my TV. Maybe I can get a picture of it?

[Jaded]

<snip>2 (http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/#fn2) Grosenheider had subscribed to fifteen newsgroups, thirteen of which featured images and messages concerning child pornography.3 (http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F3/200/321/#fn3) Siggins found that from these newsgroups [B]Grosenheider had downloaded over 500 images of young females, ages ten to fourteen, engaged in various sexually explicit acts. <snip>

(M