Brooke Bennett, 12 years old Randolph VT #21

[SailorMoon]

Good point Delta. If I were RG I'd have stayed in Texas and let them try to extradite my sorry butt.

[Starr58]

Doesn't it hit anyone else as very strange that Gagnon would take a late night phone call from Jacques and then on the basis of that call start changing emails and Myspace, load up his own flash drives and equipment, fly to Alabama, store computer info at his home there, go to the public library and then make more changes to someone else's account, then fly to Vermont? What does he actually know..I can't believe that just because he had pron on his computer and sometimes traded with Jacques in their little club that he would go to all that trouble.

I believe that he knew about this plan with Brooke from the beginning and also knew that Brooke had been killed by Jacques....otherwise it would have been smarter to stay in Texas unaware, fly up to support his ex wife in the search for Brooke and take his lumps if they found out he had porn on his computer. No this guy is in it way deep to have done all he did..and I think he and Kevin the landlord knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I hope they have both turned on MJ ..and I hope MJ admitted he killed Brooke to Gagnon.

The missing hard drive from MJ and the missing safe still cause me some concern and their impact on this case. RG is up to his neck in this as far as I am concerned and apparently had been at least 2007.

Gagnon is first contacted by jacques 9:26 pm on June 25. 26 minutes after police are notified that Brooke is missing. Gagnon arrives in Vermont sometime before church on Sunday 6/29. There are 3 days for Gagnon and Jacques to be very busy. Jacques spends his time diverting LE by planting evidence and Gagnon is where doing what???

Then on June 30 th Gagnon calls Kevin to dispose of safe. hmmmm

[NewMom2003]

Is it suspected that Gagnon was molesting Brooke before her disappearance?

How long have he and Brooke's mother been seperated/divorced?

Thanks in advance. This case is mind boggling. So many twists and turns.

RIP Brooke.

[Lola]

There's no indication of what Jacques may have told Gagnon, which is why he may have been forthcoming with LE/FBI. I'm not giving him a pass, but Jacques is clearly one manipulative .....uh, person...for lack of a more printable word.

[believe09]

I discussed on an earlier thread if a webcam live feed had to be done through a service provider like yahoo im, skype etc. I am wondering if this, gulp, was what one of the contacts between MJ and RG concerned. Another poster brought up the excellent idea that MJ transferred files to RG that evening as well, and that allowed MJ to discard his hard drive into a lake or creek because his files were reproduced somewhere else.....

[Saving Grace]

That is the way I have posted since I have been here.

I will not do it any longer. I did not know that you felt this way.

Sorry if I have offended anyone with my writing style.

My heart truly hurt when I read that post.

Dear Dark-Shadows, I have been with WS for awhile, just usual lurk and read, but the fact that you have been hurt has brought me out - I do not believe anyone meant to hurt you, I for one enjoy your posts, please stay as you have always been - :blowkiss: , I really feel you bring a lot to these boards and enjoy your posts.

[Starr58]

http://www.wptz.com/news/16902732/detail.html

[olepi]

Apparently, MJ's attorney has a scheduling conflict. Hopefully, they'll reschedule as soon as possible.

[lightinthedark]

http://www.wptz.com/news/16902732/detail.html

Are you kidding me? At the request of defense attorneys. Wonder what they are waiting for or what they have up their sleeves.

[lightinthedark]

Thank you Olepi and Starr58 for the info. I greatly appreciate it.

[olepi]

Thank you Olepi and Starr58 for the info. I greatly appreciate it.

You're welcome lightinthedark. I suppose it may be a good thing as it gives LE more time to track down any loose ends (ie. the safe in the landfill).

[becca]

There's no indication of what Jacques may have told Gagnon, which is why he may have been forthcoming with LE/FBI. I'm not giving him a pass, but Jacques is clearly one manipulative .....uh, person...for lack of a more printable word.
Just use POS... that is what he is.... person is just too good.

[luthersmama]

Are you kidding me? At the request of defense attorneys. Wonder what they are waiting for or what they have up their sleeves.

According to their motion, they have to be in another court. This is easy for the judge to verify, so I doubt that they are fudging. With the threat of the death penalty, finding a "death qualified" defense attorney in VT is probably a challenge, so it isn't like they can just look up another guy in the phone book.

[Elley Mae]

What about Gagnon.

[emanon7]

Apparently, MJ's attorney has a scheduling conflict. Hopefully, they'll reschedule as soon as possible.

This doesn't mention Gagnon.....is he still on for 2pm?

[Elley Mae]

It says which have long been scheduled, I guess he didn't check his schedule, It's still hot he probably like all the publicity.

[Elley Mae]

My bad It's still hot he probably DOES'NT like all the publicity.

[becca]

My bad It's still hot he probably DOES'NT like all the publicity.
sure he does.... ever hear that any PR is better than none?
It doesn't matter that he won't win, his prices are going to double now.

[emanon7]

Gagnon's lawyer for the first hearing was John L. Pacht. I don't know if he is still his lawyer or not. His list of clients include bank presidents, lawyers, doctors, psychologists, college students and professors plus.... Mr. Pacht is the only attorney in the state who, within the last forty five years, has defended individuals each time a federal death penalty case has been brought in Vermont.

Wonder if he'll stay with the case....

link to John L. Pacht....http://www.hoffcurtis.com/attorneys.php?xid=11

[becca]

Gagnon's lawyer for the first hearing was John L. Pacht. I don't know if he is still his lawyer or not. His list of clients include bank presidents, lawyers, doctors, psychologists, college students and professors plus.... Mr. Pacht is the only attorney in the state who, within the last forty five years, has defended individuals each time a federal death penalty case has been brought in Vermont.

Wonder if he'll stay with the case....

link to John L. Pacht....http://www.hoffcurtis.com/attorneys.php?xid=11
does that mean there are no other death penalty qualified attorney in Vermont? its rather odd that this one would have them all unless it just doesn't come on the table often.

[Starr58]

The last DP I remember in Vermont was the Fell case in 2003 I believe. I don't believe there have been a great number of them. Gagnon and Jacques have Federal Public Defenders. I don't have the names.

[Starr58]

Gagnon's lawyer for the first hearing was John L. Pacht. I don't know if he is still his lawyer or not. His list of clients include bank presidents, lawyers, doctors, psychologists, college students and professors plus.... Mr. Pacht is the only attorney in the state who, within the last forty five years, has defended individuals each time a federal death penalty case has been brought in Vermont.

Wonder if he'll stay with the case....

link to John L. Pacht....http://www.hoffcurtis.com/attorneys.php?xid=11

Phillip Hoff was once Governor of Vermont

[DianeB]

Speaking of Gagnon,did he say in his affidavit that MJ had sent him pictures of AR and Juv2 having sex,Did Juv2 not know that he was being photographed.It's entirely possible J2 didn't know. In one of the affidavits, AR mentioned that Jacques had tied her wrists and they had sex in the "computer room".

I'm thinking maybe a live webcam, run through a program that lets you record streaming video. Any number of people could have been watching - and recording - a feed posted on a private chat room.

However, I didn't see any comments made by AR in any of the released affidavits as to whether she was aware of a webcam or any other recording device.

[DianeB]

Although now that I think about it, AR did say that she received emails and phone calls from members of Breckenridge advising her on things "to work on".

Someone pass me the brain bleach.

[Starr58]

Vermont Federal Court Calendar:

http://www.psvtdlweb.vtd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/Calendar.pl?Op=ShowIt&CalendarName=Court

[LI_Mom]

MJ's lawyer also needs more time to confer w/ the government's attorneys.

Could they possibly be making a deal with him?

He pleads guilty & tells everything AND avoids the death penalty?

[Tom'sGirl]

Former stepfather of Vermont girl indicted (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5891891.html)
Houston Chronicle - United States
July 16, 2008, 6:46PM

SAN ANTONIO — The former stepfather of a 12-year-old Vermont girl found dead earlier this month was indicted Wednesday on child pornography charges.

A grand jury indicted Raymond Gagnon on charges of transporting child pornography in April 2007 and possessing a computer containing child pornography on July 1, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a release.

[evelyn24]

http://www.wptz.com/news/16902732/detail.html

The slow wheels of justice....as they say.

[RR0004]

Former stepfather of Vermont girl indicted (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5891891.html)
Houston Chronicle - United States
July 16, 2008, 6:46PM

SAN ANTONIO — The former stepfather of a 12-year-old Vermont girl found dead earlier this month was indicted Wednesday on child pornography charges.

A grand jury indicted Raymond Gagnon on charges of transporting child pornography in April 2007 and possessing a computer containing child pornography on July 1, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a release.
So they found his laptop? I'm confused. Are they basing this on what may have been sent to him? Oh, I think he's guilty as all get out, but this sounds flimsy to me.

[DianeB]

Wasn't Gagnon due in the Vermont district court tomorrow afternoon? Did he get a delay too?

[LI_Mom]

So they found his laptop? I'm confused. Are they basing this on what may have been sent to him? Oh, I think he's guilty as all get out, but this sounds flimsy to me.

Who knows how many computers might be involved?

They could have evidence BESIDES the laptop in question.

They might have him confessing to the charges.

[DianeB]

No word in a news story from Dallas as to the whereabouts of Gagnon's computer.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D91V8I580.html

Is this a ham sandwich indictment based on Gagnon's admissions?

Wait - they did find computers in Alabama. But would they indict him in Texas for that?

[RR0004]

Is it suspected that Gagnon was molesting Brooke before her disappearance?

How long have he and Brooke's mother been seperated/divorced?

Thanks in advance. This case is mind boggling. So many twists and turns.

RIP Brooke.
Can't remember exactly how long, but it's been awhile since they've been "apart". However, it's been mentioned here that Cassandra would "see" her ex whenever he was in the area.

[DianeB]

MJ's lawyer also needs more time to confer w/ the government's attorneys.

Could they possibly be making a deal with him?

He pleads guilty & tells everything AND avoids the death penalty?I sure as hell hope they're not making a deal with him. Unless he's able to pin the murder on someone else, what info could he have that would trump a murder conviction?

[texas48]

Do they both have court appointed attorneys?

[RR0004]

No word in a news story from Dallas as to the whereabouts of Gagnon's computer.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D91V8I580.html

Is this a ham sandwich indictment based on Gagnon's admissions?

Wait - they did find computers in Alabama. But would they indict him in Texas for that?
Seems to me they could come up with a whole lot more than this...but at least Texas did something about him. It still confuses me.

And, I'm sorry, how busy can MJ's attorney be? Especially when you've known for a couple of weeks. I think they're still trying to work out some sort of deal...which kinda makes me sick to think of anything less for this guy than the DP.

[RR0004]

Do they both have court appointed attorneys?
Yup...as of the other day.

[DianeB]

Texas, apparently Gagnon has or had a heavy-hitter.

Gagnon's lawyer for the first hearing was John L. Pacht. I don't know if he is still his lawyer or not. His list of clients include bank presidents, lawyers, doctors, psychologists, college students and professors plus.... Mr. Pacht is the only attorney in the state who, within the last forty five years, has defended individuals each time a federal death penalty case has been brought in Vermont.

Wonder if he'll stay with the case....

link to John L. Pacht....http://www.hoffcurtis.com/attorneys.php?xid=11

[DianeB]

RR0004, is Pacht a goner?

[RR0004]

Texas, apparently Gagnon has or had a heavy-hitter.
Wow...this is news to me...wonder when he got this guy...if it was recently than I can see that he has a right to delay...any word on MJ? Did he switch as well? And how the heck can Gagnon afford that guy?!

[RR0004]

DS-hon...any word on the switch?

[DianeB]

Can't remember exactly how long, but it's been awhile since they've been "apart". However, it's been mentioned here that Cassandra would "see" her ex whenever he was in the area.Coincidentally (?), Cassandra separated from Gagnon when Brooke was around 8 years old, about the same time his "good friend" Jacques started abusing AR.

Could there be a connection? She packed up the kids and moved far away, back to Vermont.

[RR0004]

Dearest Miss lisa,:blowkiss:
No, KG would not be able to visit. Due to the investigation.
I posted Gagnon's attorney's name a few threads ago along with Jacques attorney name.
They both have Federal Public Defenders. Nolan.


Love and Respect,
dark_shadows

Now this was as of a couple of days ago.

[DianeB]

Wow...this is news to me...wonder when he got this guy...if it was recently than I can see that he has a right to delay...any word on MJ? Did he switch as well? And how the heck can Gagnon afford that guy?!MJ's attorney (the one who requested the delay because of a scheduling conflict) doesn't appear to be nearly as esteemed. I also thought he had a public defender (which if I recall caused much kvetching the other day when his $90,000 yearly salary came to light).

The WCAX link says that both probable cause hearings have been postponed:
BURLINGTON, Vt. -- Probable cause hearings that had been scheduled for Thursday in U.S. District Court in Burlington for Raymond Gagnon and Michael Jacques have been postponed at the request of defense attorneys.

[DianeB]

Jacques' attorney, who applied for the continuance olepi posted in #258, is a Federal Public Defender.
http://www.nynd.uscourts.gov/documents/AdminOfficerVTFPD.pdf

Fox News reported on July 4th:
Lawyer John Pacht argued unsuccessfully that Gagnon cooperated with authorities who questioned him in Texas and should be released.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,376383,00.html

Inaccurate reporting, or was Gagnon questioned in Texas before he left for Alabama the day after Brooke's disappearance, and then went on to Vermont?

And is Pacht out of the picture now?

[Starr58]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,376383,00.html

From above article:


Brooke's Death

Without autopsy results, authorities won't comment on what caused Brooke's death. It thus remains unknown what happened between June 25, when Jacques allegedly took her to his house, and when her body was moved to a shallow grave along a dirt road about a mile away. The body was found Wednesday.



Authorities expressed doubt that state murder charges would be filed anytime soon, saying that the federal prosecution for kidnapping with death resulting might suffice.

Does this mean there could be no murder charges??

[believe09]

Although now that I think about it, AR did say that she received emails and phone calls from members of Breckenridge advising her on things "to work on".

Someone pass me the brain bleach.


:hug: I love that-sums things up perfectly.

[becca]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,376383,00.html

From above article:


Brooke's Death

Without autopsy results, authorities won't comment on what caused Brooke's death. It thus remains unknown what happened between June 25, when Jacques allegedly took her to his house, and when her body was moved to a shallow grave along a dirt road about a mile away. The body was found Wednesday.



Authorities expressed doubt that state murder charges would be filed anytime soon, saying that the federal prosecution for kidnapping with death resulting might suffice.

Does this mean there could be no murder charges??

That is exactly what that means. It also means that even if they had a COD it won't help them put a person to it.... something isn't right with that statement.
what is the penalty for murder in Vermont do they have the DP for state charges?

[Busylady]

I would think the Federal charges would stand above any state charges. The kidnapping charge is federal and a murder charge would be state. If they get the death penalty on the kidnapping charge there would be no need to file state murder charges.

[becca]

I would think the Federal charges would stand above any state charges. The kidnapping charge is federal and a murder charge would be state. If they get the death penalty on the kidnapping charge there would be no need to file state murder charges.
That would be true if they know its the same person. Which would come out in the Federal trial. The charge is kidnapping that results in death... so we will find out then.

[DianeB]

Isn't it that a federal kidnapping/murder conviction could result in the death penalty, but a state murder conviction would not?

[RR0004]

Isn't it that a federal kidnapping/murder conviction could result in the death penalty, but a state murder conviction would not?
Yes...that's the reason IMO they went Federal...it trumps State.

[becca]

Isn't it that a federal kidnapping/murder conviction could result in the death penalty, but a state murder conviction would not?

I know the Federal charge does but I'm not sure about the state.Where are the locals?

[oceanblueeyes]

Isn't it that a federal kidnapping/murder conviction could result in the death penalty, but a state murder conviction would not?

The Feds don't usually try straight up murder cases. Those usually are in the State's jurisdiction.

However kidnapping can be tried if a death resulted during the act. That is the Feds way of saying "murder" It is a little unusual somewhat due to the perp not crossing state lines when he kidnapped Brooke. Usually that is when the Feds steps in.

The State of Montana relinquished their right to try Joesph Duncan due to the fact that the Feds charged him with kidnapping and transporting over state line and that resulted in a death (Dylan) making him eligible for the Death Penalty.

That is what the State of Vermont has done also by giving this case to the Feds.

Imo both of these monsters will get death.

From what I recall VT does not have the death penalty.



imo

[becca]

The Feds don't usually try straight up murder cases. Those usually are in the State's jurisdiction.

However kidnapping can be tried if a death resulted during the act. That is the Feds way of saying "murder" It is a little unusual somewhat due to the perp not crossing state lines when he kidnapped Brooke. Usually that is when the Feds steps in.

The State of Montana relinquished their right to try Joesph Duncan due to the fact that the Feds charged him with kidnapping and transporting over state line and that resulted in a death (Dylan) making him eligible for the Death Penalty.

That is what the State of Vermont has done also by giving this case to the Feds.

Imo both of these monsters will get death.

From what I recall VT does not have the death penalty.



imo

thank you

[marly56]

So the scumbag fixes Brooke's email for MJ and attends church with both sides of the family during their grieving.
he may have gone there to get inside information on what the family heard or knew . at that time he was not a suspect.

[marly56]

Doesn't it hit anyone else as very strange that Gagnon would take a late night phone call from Jacques and then on the basis of that call start changing emails and Myspace, load up his own flash drives and equipment, fly to Alabama, store computer info at his home there, go to the public library and then make more changes to someone else's account, then fly to Vermont? What does he actually know..I can't believe that just because he had pron on his computer and sometimes traded with Jacques in their little club that he would go to all that trouble.

I believe that he knew about this plan with Brooke from the beginning and also knew that Brooke had been killed by Jacques....otherwise it would have been smarter to stay in Texas unaware, fly up to support his ex wife in the search for Brooke and take his lumps if they found out he had porn on his computer. No this guy is in it way deep to have done all he did..and I think he and Kevin the landlord knew exactly what was happening the entire time. I hope they have both turned on MJ ..and I hope MJ admitted he killed Brooke to Gagnon.
i agree with you. i thought this from the time rg's name surfaced involving the forged my space accounts, why else would he be so zeroed-in on a teens web page? imo he is deeply involved in this case.up to his neck involved.

[marly56]

I discussed on an earlier thread if a webcam live feed had to be done through a service provider like yahoo im, skype etc. I am wondering if this, gulp, was what one of the contacts between MJ and RG concerned. Another poster brought up the excellent idea that MJ transferred files to RG that evening as well, and that allowed MJ to discard his hard drive into a lake or creek because his files were reproduced somewhere else.....
good point!

[cheko1]

I am really surprised that there is not any news on this case. NG usually covers these and she hasn't had anything on since the arrests.

First post here BTW. Thanks moderators and forum owners.

Welcome to WS madge & any other new posters I may of missed!
I'm just trying to get caught up on this thread....you all have been VERY busy!!!!!

[cheko1]

Just to let people know the court times for Gagnon and Jacques.

Thursday at 2pm for Gagnon and thursday 3pm for Jacques.
WPTZ will be broadcasting on their Livestream video outside of the courthouse.
The link;

http://www.wptz.com/video/11306790/index.html


Love and Respect,
dark_shadows

Thank you DS for the info!!!!! :clap:

[cheko1]

So noted....

Does anyone else find it somewhat strange that RG attended church with James Bennett on Sunday after Brooke's disappearance. Were RG and jim friends or past associates in anyway? What was the connection there?

Do people normally attend church with a person who is not family or a close friend to provide support?


I find the entire family dynamics more than a little strange.

JMO but I think RG wanted to squash any sort of blame on himself ASAP.What better way then to to go to church with the Ex family?

[becca]

I find the entire family dynamics more than a little strange.

JMO but I think RG wanted to squash any sort of blame on himself ASAP.What better way then to to go to church with the Ex family?
What better way to keep up with the investigation than to have the family tell you everything they know? If MJ didn't know it, I"m sure other members did. Kind of reminds me of the arsonist that stays to watch the fire dept put out the fire.

[Liz]

Snippets from
http://radio.woai.com/script2/print.php?page=/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html&article_id=3966721&feed_id=119078

"Raymond Gagnon, 40, is charged with possessing a computer which contained child pornography earlier this month, and with transporting child pornography in April 0f 2007. The possession charge could land Gagnon in federal prison for ten years, and the possession charge carries a five year maximum term. (say what ????)

Gagnon admitted in an affadavit that he collected the pornography on the computer."

================================================== =====

Can anybody make sense of the possible sentences? Is one for federal (10 yrs) and one for state (5 yr max)?

Also, I'm having a hard time believing that both Gagnon's and Jacques' last court appearance was 7/7 (IIRC) and that's when their 7/17 prelim was scheduled; yet all of a sudden with less than 24 hours until their prelimary hearing time, both lawyers have scheduling conflicts. That doesn't add up for me.

[Leila]

That is the way I have posted since I have been here.

I will not do it any longer. I did not know that you felt this way.

Sorry if I have offended anyone with my writing style.

My heart truly hurt when I read that post.

I'm trying to catch up with this thread and just wanted to say that I've always felt honored by your responses to other posters. It's shows respect for others that is so sorely lacking in today's world. :blowkiss:

[Leila]

I am back and just now getting caught up reading the posts.

Remember when LE was searching with a metal detector? It was in an article early on and I cannot find the reference to it. Does anyone else remember? Anyway, I do not feel that they were looking for Brooke's grave with a metal detector - I think they may have been looking for something else MJ buried. A hard drive, maybe? When this case goes to trial, we are going to find out so much about the whole thing!

We try to think logically and come up with answers, but MJ and RG (IMO) are so off the charts that logical does not apply to them!

I remember that article and wondered why they were using a metal detector and what specifically they were looking for. It makes a lot of sense that LE would look for evidence that MJ buried - like the hard drive, with a metal detector.

We the lack of any reports of what LE has in the way of evidence, I too feel that by the time this goes to trial, we might be surprised at all the evidence LE has in this case. It's happened with other cases, where the public was not privy to what LE had, but when it went to trial we were overwhelmed with the evidence. I hope this is the case this time.

[SeriouslySearching]

and with transporting child pornography in April 0f 2007

http://radio.woai.com/script2/print....feed_id=119078

Correct me if I am wrong...but isn't this when he was in a threesome with a minor?! So what was he transporting...the video of themselves?

[Liz]

and with transporting child pornography in April 0f 2007

http://radio.woai.com/script2/print....feed_id=119078

Correct me if I am wrong...but isn't this when he was in a threesome with a minor?! So what was he transporting...the video of themselves?


That's what I was thinking, SS. Gagnon transported the vid of the threesome back to San Antonio.

[Busylady]

Im getting confused on the charges for Gagnon. Alabama charged him with possession of child porn, now Texas has charged him with transporting child porn in 4/2007 and possession July 1. IIRC the affidavit said 6/2007 is when the encounter with AR happened. Then we have the federal obstruction charge.

Did they find something in Alabama that they can prove he transported like maybe the pictures of AR and Juv2, that he said were in the safe in Texas? The July 1 possession charge in Texas throws me as well, he wasnt in Texas July 1, does this mean they found a computer there with images on it?

[Liz]

Vermont Federal Court Calendar:

http://www.psvtdlweb.vtd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/Calendar.pl?Op=ShowIt&CalendarName=Court


Wouldn't want to over-work those poor judges, would they? Two hours of work in the morning. And the two hours of work for the afternoon have been cancelled. //shaking head// :rolleyes:

[Liz]

Im getting confused on the charges for Gagnon. Alabama charged him with possession of child porn, now Texas has charged him with transporting child porn in 4/2007 and possession July 1. IIRC the affidavit said 6/2007 is when the encounter with AR happened. Then we have the federal obstruction charge.

Did they find something in Alabama that they can prove he transported like maybe the pictures of AR and Juv2, that he said were in the safe in Texas? The July 1 possession charge in Texas throws me as well, he wasnt in Texas July 1, does this mean they found a computer there with images on it?


I hope we get some solid & factual information at some point soon, Busy. Until then, I think we are going to continue to be confused. :crazy:

[Liz]

To add to the confusion, here's a quote from an article titled, Gagnon Indicted On Charges Of Possessing Child Porn (http://www.ksat.com/news/16905415/detail.html)

"Raymond Gagnon allegedly had images on a computer federal agents searched for in a local landfill last week."


So, it sounds like RG has been indicted based on his own statement, imo. It sure doesn't sound to me as though any evidence was found in the landfill. But then again, it could just be the wording.

[lisalei321]

I'm confused, have both hearings been cancelled? I thought only one of them had?

[emanon7]

Snippets from
http://radio.woai.com/script2/print.php?page=/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html&article_id=3966721&feed_id=119078

"Raymond Gagnon, 40, is charged with possessing a computer which contained child pornography earlier this month, and with transporting child pornography in April 0f 2007. The possession charge could land Gagnon in federal prison for ten years, and the possession charge carries a five year maximum term. (say what ????)

Gagnon admitted in an affadavit that he collected the pornography on the computer."

================================================== =====

Can anybody make sense of the possible sentences? Is one for federal (10 yrs) and one for state (5 yr max)?

Also, I'm having a hard time believing that both Gagnon's and Jacques' last court appearance was 7/7 (IIRC) and that's when their 7/17 prelim was scheduled; yet all of a sudden with less than 24 hours until their prelimary hearing time, both lawyers have scheduling conflicts. That doesn't add up for me.

Liz, according to this press release by the Texas US Attorney's office, it's 10 years on possession and 5 years on the transportation...both federal charges.

"Upon conviction, Gagnon faces up to ten years in federal prison and a maximum $500,000 fine on the possession charge and up to five years in federal prison and a maximum $250,000 fine on the transportation charge."

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/2008/Gagnon_indictment.pdf

I am curious to know if "transportation" includes electronic transmission or if it has to be physical transportation. Seems like it would be hard to prove someone physically transported something after the fact. How would they know you had it on your person unless they actually caught you with it.

[texas48]

According to their motion, they have to be in another court. This is easy for the judge to verify, so I doubt that they are fudging. With the threat of the death penalty, finding a "death qualified" defense attorney in VT is probably a challenge, so it isn't like they can just look up another guy in the phone book.I'm certain the attorney is telling the truth about the conflict w/court dates...but....did he just realize yesterday there was 2 court dates scheduled for same day? Also, with this case being such a high profile case why would they not postpone the other case and go forward with this one?

[Elley Mae]

I'm certain the attorney is telling the truth about the conflict w/court dates...but....did he just realize yesterday there was 2 court dates scheduled for same day? Also, with this case being such a high profile case why would they not postpone the other case and go forward with this one?
That's what I don't understand,it seems that when this date was decided he would have realized he had previous engagements.

[Hailiejade77]

That is the way I have posted since I have been here.

I will not do it any longer. I did not know that you felt this way.

Sorry if I have offended anyone with my writing style.

My heart truly hurt when I read that post.


I love how you post and I miss your posts very much!!!! Please come back DS! I can say that I think almost all of the posters miss your valued opinions and knowledge!!!!! :blowkiss:

[bdmama]

VT does NOT have the DP. The federal Kidnapping charge w/ death resulting can impose the DP. I dont think it has anything to do w/ crossing state lines as Brooke never left the state. It has to do w/ the fact that the internet was used to orchestrate the kidnapping.

[Elley Mae]

Just a thought: doe's anyone think that MJ,knowing that he is at least going to spend some time in jail ,is implicating others that were involved in her death.I'm still having trouble with AR's story that she and Juv2 left. It was just to convenient that Juv2 arrived to pick her up,something is not right.

[becca]

Just a thought: doe's anyone think that MJ,knowing that he is at least going to spend some time in jail ,is implicating others that were involved in her death.I'm still having trouble with AR's story that she and Juv2 left. It was just to convenient that Juv2 arrived to pick her up,something is not right.

It wouldn't surprise me if he tried to throw her and the boy under the bus. This is a POS that will do and say anything to save himself.

[LI_Mom]

I sure as hell hope they're not making a deal with him. Unless he's able to pin the murder on someone else, what info could he have that would trump a murder conviction?

If they can get him to plead guilty to Brooke's murder, it would probably be better for EVERYONE.... her family & even the state.

If they try him for the murder, AR will most likely be called to testify & reveal exactly what HER own part was in the planning to kidnap & torture Brooke. And exactly what SHE did those 2 days she was with Brooke.

[LI_Mom]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,376383,00.html

From above article:


Brooke's Death

Without autopsy results, authorities won't comment on what caused Brooke's death. It thus remains unknown what happened between June 25, when Jacques allegedly took her to his house, and when her body was moved to a shallow grave along a dirt road about a mile away. The body was found Wednesday.



Authorities expressed doubt that state murder charges would be filed anytime soon, saying that the federal prosecution for kidnapping with death resulting might suffice.

Does this mean there could be no murder charges??

Autopsy results aren't in yet.

The authorities will NOT speculate.

So the author of the article doesn't know what happened to Brooke & has nothing new to report.

---

If the Federal govt. charges MJ with murder, there is no need for the state to charge him. The Federal govt. CAN sentence him to death on the charges, unlike the state.

[texas48]

I sure as hell hope they're not making a deal with him. Unless he's able to pin the murder on someone else, what info could he have that would trump a murder conviction?
Laws may be different in each state. I am woundering if the Pros. Office has to discuss with the family of the victim before they make a deal w/defendants even to taking the dealth penalty off the table. And, I may have missed something but have LE/FBI charged anyone with murder? Questions,Questions and more Questions..Very few answers as of right now. Maybe soon. Of course, nothing brings a little 12 yr old girl back to live out her life as it should be. Cut way to short in a horrific manner.

[Starr58]

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8615806

[Medea]

I don't see Jacques pleading guilty and I don't see that he has anything much to give up in order to get the Feds to take the DP off the table. AR is not going to be prosecuted no matter what her involvement was in Brooke's death, in my opinion. They're going to have a hard time prosecuting Juvenile 2 and not AR, if either one of them had anything to do with Brooke's death....so,that leaves Jacques. I don't think he has any significant information on any child porn ring to offer up to the Feds as an inducement to take the DP off the table.

I would love to know what Juvenile 2 has to say about the whole thing and what occured subsequent to the Cumberland Farms video and Brooke's body being found...but I doubt that will come out until the trial or shortly before the trial.

I also think people should be prepared for this cae to take YEARS to come to trial...although the Feds usually move more quickly than state courts, this is going to be a DP case and its under a new law, so the anti DP lawyers will delay and appeal this to the end of time if they can.

[Elley Mae]

Maybe this was brought up before and I missed it,but why would Gagnon have used his landlords laptop to change the dates on Brooke's Myspace and not his own. And I still think MJ wanted he and Brooke to be videoed in the store that morning of the 25th,(can still see her looking uncomfortable) so he would be seen departing ways with her. After that he had about 11 hours before she was reported missing. That's a lot of time.

[absolut_alexis]

It seems like Jacques was trying to convince Juvinile 2 that Brooke was threatening her parents marriage. Lots of mind games going on.

[Medea]

Maybe this was brought up before and I missed it,but why would Gagnon have used his landlords laptop to change the dates on Brooke's Myspace and not his own. And I still think MJ wanted he and Brooke to be videoed in the store that morning of the 25th,(can still see her looking uncomfortable) so he would be seen departing ways with her. After that he had about 11 hours before she was reported missing. That's a lot of time.

No question he took her to Cumberland Farms to be videotaped...he even spoke to the cashier about Brooke to make sure he was seen and heard and to further bulk up his alibi/false story of Brooke meeting someone for the hospital trip.

Are we sure it wasn't Gagnon's laptop since he lived at the same address as Kevin?

You're right 11 hours is a long time, but I still don't think he intended to kill her right away, but maybe he did. In the back of my mind I wonder if he didn't have some bunker somewhere that he was planning on holding her hostage for weeks/months until he finally killed her....I tend to think his plan involved Brooke staying alive for a lot longer and her body never being found...but that doesn't explain what he wanted Juvenile 2's semen for...still so many unanswered questions as to why he set it all in motion and what his actual plan was...

[Elley Mae]

I believe it was Gagnon's affidavit that stated it was landlords laptop,can't remember his name.Speaking of Gagnon,he also said he was with MJ and Juv1 June 2007 at a house in South Royalton, Was it not posted earlier that MJ's grandfather or Denise's and or Cassandra's Grandmother lived there,and was it ever found out that they did or did not live together at 1816?

[LI_Mom]

I don't see Jacques pleading guilty and I don't see that he has anything much to give up in order to get the Feds to take the DP off the table. AR is not going to be prosecuted no matter what her involvement was in Brooke's death, in my opinion. They're going to have a hard time prosecuting Juvenile 2 and not AR, if either one of them had anything to do with Brooke's death....so,that leaves Jacques. I don't think he has any significant information on any child porn ring to offer up to the Feds as an inducement to take the DP off the table.

I would love to know what Juvenile 2 has to say about the whole thing and what occured subsequent to the Cumberland Farms video and Brooke's body being found...but I doubt that will come out until the trial or shortly before the trial.

I also think people should be prepared for this cae to take YEARS to come to trial...although the Feds usually move more quickly than state courts, this is going to be a DP case and its under a new law, so the anti DP lawyers will delay and appeal this to the end of time if they can.

I'm just wondering if psychiatrists/lawyers for AR's defense might approach the Feds and ask that they push MJ to plead guilty to AVOID having to call AR to the stand.

It's NOT out of the realm of possibility that MJ might have enough feeling/remorse for AR that he would do this one little thing for her.

The FEDs #1 priority most likely is following the CP trail & if they can get his total cooperation on that end, they might be willing to make a deal & stick him in jail for life. Remember, it's NOT 100% certain that a jury will even come back with a guilty verdict if he goes to trial.

Of course, all this is speculation.... we don't know the full scope of the plotting OR what went on once they got Brooke back to the house. There MIGHT be more than one person involved in her torture & murder. If so, do they just sweep all that under the rug? How can they????

I also think we're going to see that RG gets a disgustingly short sentence because I doubt he had anything directly to do w/ Brooke's kidnapping or murder. Unless MJ sent him pics or videos of Brooke even before she was reported missing, it seems he was called only AFTER the heat was on.

[Medea]

I'm just wondering if psychiatrists/lawyers for AR's defense might approach the Feds and ask that they push MJ to plead guilty to AVOID having to call AR to the stand.

It's NOT out of the realm of possibility that MJ might have enough feeling/remorse for AR that he would do this one little thing for her.

The FEDs #1 priority most likely is following the CP trail & if they can get his total cooperation on that end, they might be willing to make a deal & stick him in jail for life. Remember, it's NOT 100% certain that a jury will even come back with a guilty verdict if he goes to trial.

Of course, all this is speculation.... we don't know the full scope of the plotting OR what went on once they got Brooke back to the house. There MIGHT be more than one person involved in her torture & murder. If so, do they just sweep all that under the rug? How can they????

I also think we're going to see that RG gets a disgustingly short sentence because I doubt he had anything directly to do w/ Brooke's kidnapping or murder. Unless MJ sent him pics or videos of Brooke even before she was reported missing, it seems he was called only AFTER the heat was on.


I think that AR will be given full immunity, assuming she needs it for whatever he role was in Brooke's death, assuming she had one. However, its my opinion that the affidavidt w/ AR's emails was released for a purpose, which was to make public her admitted role in Brooke's abduction...this could be for several reasons, including putting pressure that she gets some kind of help or preventing her from fully abdicating any responsibility. So far nothing negative about Juvenile 2 has come out, but that doesn't necessarily mean he had no knowledge.

I believe they charged Jacques with kidnapping because they want him to get the DP and for no other reason. He could easily plead guilty in return for LWOP charged by the state. The Feds conviction percentages are amazingly high, though it does vary by district. Given what is already known publicly about Jacques I would say we are already at about a 97% chance for conviction...I just don't see any deals coming for Jacques.

They're putting the full squeeze on Gagnon, charging him w/child porn possesion in 3 different states...not sure about consecutive vs. concurrent sentences would work in a case like this. I'm on the fence w/Gagnon...I don't need to see him in jail for 30 or 40 years until I see evidence of what he knew about Brooke and when.

I read the Texas charges that they found his laptop in the searches...otherwise not sure what concrete evidence they would have for his possession of child porn since an uncorroborated statement I don't think is enough...but maybe it is for probable cause. I still don't see anyone else other than maybe Kevin being charged in relation to the child porn...so far Gagnon is also ONLY charged w/possession nothing about distribution....

[LI_Mom]

No question he took her to Cumberland Farms to be videotaped...he even spoke to the cashier about Brooke to make sure he was seen and heard and to further bulk up his alibi/false story of Brooke meeting someone for the hospital trip.

Are we sure it wasn't Gagnon's laptop since he lived at the same address as Kevin?

You're right 11 hours is a long time, but I still don't think he intended to kill her right away, but maybe he did. In the back of my mind I wonder if he didn't have some bunker somewhere that he was planning on holding her hostage for weeks/months until he finally killed her....I tend to think his plan involved Brooke staying alive for a lot longer and her body never being found...but that doesn't explain what he wanted Juvenile 2's semen for...still so many unanswered questions as to why he set it all in motion and what his actual plan was...

ITA with this theory.

If he simply wanted to kill Brooke.... why all the planning & the trail that leads straight back to MJ & AR?


I believe MJ planned on hiding her in a secure location while LE was busy looking out of state but her death was accidental & that threw the whole plan into disarray.... he started making stupid mistakes like calling RG & warning him to save his porn.

I think the semen was simply to bolster the 'fact' that some out of town stranger picked Brooke up, raped her & abducted her. It's highly likely that they had MORE plans for directing attention away from VT but never got a chance to implement them because LE were on to them so early on through their own emails & MySpace log-ons.

[LI_Mom]

I think that AR will be given full immunity, assuming she needs it for whatever he role was in Brooke's death, assuming she had one. However, its my opinion that the affidavidt w/ AR's emails was released for a purpose, which was to make public her admitted role in Brooke's abduction...this could be for several reasons, including putting pressure that she gets some kind of help or preventing her from fully abdicating any responsibility. So far nothing negative about Juvenile 2 has come out, but that doesn't necessarily mean he had no knowledge.

I believe they charged Jacques with kidnapping because they want him to get the DP and for no other reason. He could easily plead guilty in return for LWOP charged by the state. The Feds conviction percentages are amazingly high, though it does vary by district. Given what is already known publicly about Jacques I would say we are already at about a 97% chance for conviction...I just don't see any deals coming for Jacques.

They're putting the full squeeze on Gagnon, charging him w/child porn possesion in 3 different states...not sure about consecutive vs. concurrent sentences would work in a case like this. I'm on the fence w/Gagnon...I don't need to see him in jail for 30 or 40 years until I see evidence of what he knew about Brooke and when.

I read the Texas charges that they found his laptop in the searches...otherwise not sure what concrete evidence they would have for his possession of child porn since an uncorroborated statement I don't think is enough...but maybe it is for probable cause. I still don't see anyone else other than maybe Kevin being charged in relation to the child porn...so far Gagnon is also ONLY charged w/possession nothing about distribution....

Great post. I don't disagree at all.

We're both speculating (with next to no concrete info. lol) & I think we both have valid & logical arguments.

It sure will be interesting to see how this all unfolds. I can't imagine how this is affecting the people close to the victim or the kids who knew AR. How does this community begin to heal? :confused:

[luthersmama]

That's what I don't understand,it seems that when this date was decided he would have realized he had previous engagements.

It's not like they get together and compare dates ahead of time. The judge or the court administrator sets a date and everybody else has to respond. The lawyer probably knew right away and filed the motion.

"High profile" cases don't get priority.

Also, the prosecution doesn't seem interested in rushing this.

[vermontn03]

Sorry if this has alreay been posted.

Brooke Bennett's Former Stepfather Faces More Charges

http://wcax.images.worldnow.com/images/8689872_BG1.jpg

http://wcax.images.worldnow.com/images/8689872_BG2.jpg


San Antonio, Texas - July 17, 2008
Brooke Bennett's former stepfather is now facing federal charges in Texas where he lives.
40-year-old Ray Gagnon was charged in Vermont earlier this month with obstruction of justice. FBI agents say he hindered the investigation into Brooke's kidnapping and murder by tampering with a computer.


http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8689872&nav=4QcRbg3i

[jep0216]

Forgive me if this has been discussed, but anyone know why MJ called RG to change the info on mysace? If he had already accessed the myspace earlier to change info, why wouldn't he just access it again to change whatever he asked RG to change?

[Liz]

Liz, according to this press release by the Texas US Attorney's office, it's 10 years on possession and 5 years on the transportation...both federal charges.

"Upon conviction, Gagnon faces up to ten years in federal prison and a maximum $500,000 fine on the possession charge and up to five years in federal prison and a maximum $250,000 fine on the transportation charge."

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/2008/Gagnon_indictment.pdf

Ahhh, thanks ... I get it now. The article I referenced said 10 yrs for possession and 5 years for possession. So somebody didn't proofread before publishing.


I am curious to know if "transportation" includes electronic transmission or if it has to be physical transportation. Seems like it would be hard to prove someone physically transported something after the fact. How would they know you had it on your person unless they actually caught you with it.

Not sure, but I would guess that it would.

[Liz]

<snip>I also think people should be prepared for this cae to take YEARS to come to trial...although the Feds usually move more quickly than state courts, this is going to be a DP case and its under a new law, so the anti DP lawyers will delay and appeal this to the end of time if they can.


Medea, can you please explain what you're referring to as being under a new law? TIA!

[evelyn24]

VT does NOT have the DP. The federal Kidnapping charge w/ death resulting can impose the DP. I dont think it has anything to do w/ crossing state lines as Brooke never left the state. It has to do w/ the fact that the internet was used to orchestrate the kidnapping.


Yep. This is the only reason the feds can claim jurisdiction.

[RR0004]

Medea, can you please explain what you're referring to as being under a new law? TIA!
the Adam Walsh law IIRC

[Liz]

Thanks for your reply, RR0004.

I just posted in the media links thread a link about Jim and Janet Bennett speaking out in a television interview last night.

http://www.wten.com/Global/story.asp?S=8690963

[IMBY]

I believe it was Gagnon's affidavit that stated it was landlords laptop,can't remember his name.Speaking of Gagnon,he also said he was with MJ and Juv1 June 2007 at a house in South Royalton, Was it not posted earlier that MJ's grandfather or Denise's and or Cassandra's Grandmother lived there,and was it ever found out that they did or did not live together at 1816?

No.

1816 E. Bethel Road is in Randolph Center, VT.
This is the residence of MJ's Grandfather. Public records also list Lilla Woodard as living at 1816 E. Bethel Road.

This is NOT the S. Royalton location mentioned with regard to MJ and RG.

[believe09]

No.

1816 E. Bethel Road is in Randolph Center, VT.
This is the residence of MJ's Grandfather. Public records also list Lilla Woodard as living at 1816 E. Bethel Road.

This is NOT the S. Royalton location mentioned with regard to MJ and RG.

And isn't Lila Woodard Denise's given name?

[Shelby77]

If you go to the ussearch website and type in lucinda milne, click on the "people report" button for the vermont result and it lists South Royalton, VT along w/ Randolph, VT and possible relative of Thomas Milne. Just pointing out the South Royalton reference that has been associated w/ Brooke's grandmother.....

[RR0004]

If you go to the ussearch website and type in lucinda milne, click on the "people report" button for the vermont result and it lists South Royalton, VT along w/ Randolph, VT and possible relative of Thomas Milne. Just pointing out the South Royalton reference that has been associated w/ Brooke's grandmother.....
It all makes you kinda nauseous, doesn't it?!

[marly56]

ITA with this theory.

If he simply wanted to kill Brooke.... why all the planning & the trail that leads straight back to MJ & AR?


I believe MJ planned on hiding her in a secure location while LE was busy looking out of state but her death was accidental & that threw the whole plan into disarray.... he started making stupid mistakes like calling RG & warning him to save his porn.

I think the semen was simply to bolster the 'fact' that some out of town stranger picked Brooke up, raped her & abducted her. It's highly likely that they had MORE plans for directing attention away from VT but never got a chance to implement them because LE were on to them so early on through their own emails & MySpace log-ons.
you may be correct . i remember one of the very first statements from the media was that the police said brookes death either was an accident or, could have been an accident.

[Shelby77]

BTW, new poster here but have been reading since a few days after she disappeared, i had an account here a long time ago with a different case i allowed to consume my life, I swore I'd never let myself get so totally invested again, but at least i'm glad i remembered to come back here...so much information in one place, everyone here does an incredible job. Thought it was about time i contributed......

[RR0004]

BTW, new poster here but have been reading since a few days after she disappeared, i had an account here a long time ago with a different case i allowed to consume my life, I swore I'd never let myself get so totally invested again, but at least i'm glad i remembered to come back here...so much information in one place, everyone here does an incredible job. Thought it was about time i contributed......
Welcome back, Shelby!

[christine2448]

BTW, new poster here but have been reading since a few days after she disappeared, i had an account here a long time ago with a different case i allowed to consume my life, I swore I'd never let myself get so totally invested again, but at least i'm glad i remembered to come back here...so much information in one place, everyone here does an incredible job. Thought it was about time i contributed......


WB! Glad to have ya!

[Elley Mae]

IMBY, I didn't say the house is were MJ, AR and RG got together,just the area. But it looks like MJ's grandfather,and Denise's Grandmother are residing in the same house. These family's can't stay away from each other. Birds of a feather flock together. Just my opinion.

[Starr58]

It all makes you kinda nauseous, doesn't it?!

Wasn't it Cassandra and/or Denise that did not LE to discuss the "family dynamics"??? UGHHHH Charge them ALL..Incest breeds deviant behaviors.

[Shelby77]

Yea, an odd connection there w/ the grandparents for sure...not that anything's out of the realm w/ these people....wonder if any of the locals here know anything about that..

[Starr58]

It all makes you kinda nauseous, doesn't it?!

Wasn't it Cassandra and/or Denise that did not want LE to discuss the "family dynamics"???

UGHHHH Charge them ALL..Incest breeds deviant behaviors. Where is the Department of Children and Families ?? Haven't heard a word about the involvement of any child protection agencies on behalf of minors in this FAMILY!!!:furious::furious::furious::bang:

[Shelby77]

Heh, well that kinda proves that whoever didn't want the "dynamics" discussed, that they had enough sense to realize they were not quite "normal"...no speculating they were just brought up this way and didn't know better....too bad they didn't have enough sense to try and prevent all this from happening

[texas48]

Wasn't it Cassandra and/or Denise that did not want LE to discuss the "family dynamics"???

UGHHHH Charge them ALL..Incest breeds deviant behaviors. Where is the Department of Children and Families ?? Haven't heard a word about the involvement of any child protection agencies on behalf of minors in this FAMILY!!!:furious::furious::furious::bang:
Starr..I am agreeing with you on this one 100%.Something here is making no logic, nothing but confussion all the way around. There is much wrong here and its like you just can't put your finger on it.

[DeltaDawn]

VT does NOT have the DP. The federal Kidnapping charge w/ death resulting can impose the DP. I dont think it has anything to do w/ crossing state lines as Brooke never left the state. It has to do w/ the fact that the internet was used to orchestrate the kidnapping.

It doesn't have to do with the internet to bring Federal Kidnapping charges in this case. It is very simple, if a person is kidnapped and that kidnapping leads to death, then the Feds can step in and take jurisdication. And Federal kidnapping charges, where the kidnapping ended in death, are DP eligable. You don't have to use the internet or leave the state.

I am sure the Feds became interested due to the kidnapping, death and the child porn issue. The child porn issue is a big deal with the Feds, as well as death and kidnapping.

[DeltaDawn]

Forgive me if this has been discussed, but anyone know why MJ called RG to change the info on mysace? If he had already accessed the myspace earlier to change info, why wouldn't he just access it again to change whatever he asked RG to change?


Because he was busy getting rid of the hard drive to his home computer.

[vtgirl]

my dearest dark shadows,

Don't change a thing! You are perfect the way that you are.

All the best,
vtgirl

[liljim]

Medea, can you please explain what you're referring to as being under a new law? TIA!


the new federal kidnapping law (kidnapping that results in death) has not been challenged yet.

and as someone pointed out above, the use of the internet is not why the feds got involved, any kidnapping that results in death is now a federal crime.

[becca]

Do you really think it won't hold up ? I know the sentencing guidelines are going to cause nightmares for defense attorneys... death and not LWOP. There is nothing to bargain with.

[calidreamin]

Wasn't it Cassandra and/or Denise that did not want LE to discuss the "family dynamics"???

UGHHHH Charge them ALL..Incest breeds deviant behaviors. Where is the Department of Children and Families ?? Haven't heard a word about the involvement of any child protection agencies on behalf of minors in this FAMILY!!!:furious::furious::furious::bang:

Yes Starr it was Cassandra that would let LE discuss the "family dynamics". I agrre charge them all:behindbar.

[vt8881]

Lilla Woodard is listed as having a residence and phone number South Royalton.

[Elley Mae]

My point was and is that there is suggestion that MJ's (GF)and DJ's (GM) are living together. If you own a home and have a phone that is in service,that does not mean that you have to be living at that residence.

[liljim]

Do you really think it won't hold up ?


i dont know, i certainly hope it does.

[vt8881]

Yes, that is true.
Does it mean there is a residence in South Royalton with a phone listed under Lilla Woodard's name? Is this the residence in South Royalton where the events with MJ and RG and AR took place in 2007?

[texas48]

It wouldn't surprise me if he tried to throw her and the boy under the bus. This is a POS that will do and say anything to save himself.
This is what I have been thinking for awhile now Becca. I have this horrible thought more than MJ is involved in Brooke's death. This is a terrible way of thinking but the feeling is there. Is anyone other than myself thinking this way??

[Elley Mae]

Yes, that is true.
Does it mean there is a residence in South Royalton with a phone listed under Lilla Woodard's name? Is this the residence in South Royalton where the events with MJ and RG and AR took place in 2007?

This is what I am thinking if lilla IS living with MJ's (GF) then maybe this is were the incident in June 2007 took place. If the house that her owns is vacant or was vacant at the time. Gagnon said South Royalton, And where did he stay when he was here the end of June this year.

[Medea]

Do you really think it won't hold up ? I know the sentencing guidelines are going to cause nightmares for defense attorneys... death and not LWOP. There is nothing to bargain with.

I think it will for sure hold up, but it opens the door to a whole new set of appealable issues which is exactly what defense attorneys in DP cases do in order to forstall the sentence being carried out.

[becca]

I think it will for sure hold up, but it opens the door to a whole new set of appealable issues which is exactly what defense attorneys in DP cases do in order to forstall the sentence being carried out.

That is true, that means we get to house them for years much like the state of Florida does now. They spend an average of 20 years waiting on death row.

[liljim]

im sure i sound like a broken record, and i understand all the arguments people hve made regarding it, but im still shocked that they have done nothing now in a long time to further assure the public that this wasnt some large scale child porn ring, or that they dont suspect more victims or suspects are involved.

i dont know whether that is good or bad...

[Medea]

im sure i sound like a broken record, and i understand all the arguments people hve made regarding it, but im still shocked that they have done nothing now in a long time to further assure the public that this wasnt some large scale child porn ring, or that they dont suspect more victims or suspects are involved.

i dont know whether that is good or bad...

My opinion is that they have done that, they have said that there isn't evidence that any Vermont children were being solicited for the 'sex ring' and that they believe 'Breckenridge' was something that Jacques created....my own reading of these statements is that there is no evidence of any kind of child porn ring or sex ring and that they don't believe there are any other victims out there that have not been identified.

[liljim]

yes, but as i said - they havent made any statement at all, as the investigation has obviously uncovered a lot more information, to further assure the public that this is proving to be true. i think that it is called for in such a heinous case.

they dont have to give away their hand, or even give a manner or cause of death, but just a vague blanket statement "as this investigation has progressed we have further solidified our beliefs that all suspects and victims in this case are known and that no further activity or threat exists".

i agree with you that i dont think there is an active child porn ring involved in this case, but there are a lot of unknowns in this case , and it is not unreasonable if someone in that community is wondering if there is a threat still out there.

[Medea]

They may not want to make any kind of a definitive statement until the investigation is complete so they don't have to backtrack when something pops up in the future...we've seen plenty of cases where police made pronouncements much too soon that turned out wrong.

I don't think its a bad thing if the community is wondering if there is threat out there, it might be motivating them to talk to their children.

My guess is that they will end up indicting a few more freaks for possession of child porn that Gagnon and/or Jacques and/or Kevin will give up or that they will uncover via computer records...but I don't believe these guys were making it or distributing it on any kind of scale beyond whatever Jacques was doing w/AR and I don't think anyone else was involved in Brooke's death who hasnt' already been named.

[SailorMoon]

Maybe they are just waiting on the problem to solve itself. You know.....self destruct.

But seriously, that isn't acceptable in my eyes because you have a child involved that was sexually abused. Let me try that here in Texas. I'd be in Huntsville so fast it would make your head spin.

Wasn't it Cassandra and/or Denise that did not want LE to discuss the "family dynamics"???

UGHHHH Charge them ALL..Incest breeds deviant behaviors. Where is the Department of Children and Families ?? Haven't heard a word about the involvement of any child protection agencies on behalf of minors in this FAMILY!!!:furious::furious::furious::bang:

[Lola]

They have said however that all the emails came from Jacques - home and work computers....i.e. it was one person pretending to be the various members of Breckenridge - hence there was no Breckenridge outside of Jacques.

[VTGirl81]

I have been MIA for a few days...I haven't been able to read all the way back either. Can someone fill me in on why there were no court appearances yesterday as planned?

THANKS!

[liljim]

the lawyer for MJ had a conflict and requested a continuance, so i think they just delayed them both to keep them on the same schedule. (unless i missed something about why the other hearing was also delayed then someone can correct me)

[Elley Mae]

VtGirl81 I believe the answer to your question is on tread 11 post 258.

[LI_Mom]

This is what I have been thinking for awhile now Becca. I have this horrible thought more than MJ is involved in Brooke's death. This is a terrible way of thinking but the feeling is there. Is anyone other than myself thinking this way??

How can you NOT wonder....

in the emails they were talking about scheduling time w/ Brooke after the 'tie down.'

So who ended up wanting time w/ Brooke?

[luthersmama]

Maybe they are just waiting on the problem to solve itself. You know.....self destruct.

But seriously, that isn't acceptable in my eyes because you have a child involved that was sexually abused. Let me try that here in Texas. I'd be in Huntsville so fast it would make your head spin.



Child abuse investigations are typically done confidentially. They don't go running to the microphone with a press release. People who report abuse, other than "mandated reporters" like doctors, can't even find out the results of the investigation.

http://www.dcf.state.vt.us/sites/dcf/files/pdf/fsd/2007_Child_Abuse_and_Neglect_Report.pdf

I believe that there is an extensive investigation under way by DCF and we don't know about it and WON'T know about it unless it comes out at a trial.

[SailorMoon]

And who ended up GETTING TIME.

How can you NOT wonder....

in the emails they were talking about scheduling time w/ Brooke after the 'tie down.'

So who ended up wanting time w/ Brooke?

[marly56]

How can you NOT wonder....

in the emails they were talking about scheduling time w/ Brooke after the 'tie down.'

So who ended up wanting time w/ Brooke?
i also share your thoughts, and with the 11 hour gap her killing was probably filmed [imo].this type of film carries a big price. ive read on another site [cant remember at this moment] that these kinds of films DO exist, and are viewed via credit accounts internationally. this is a horrible reality that we must face. as soon as all societies face the reality that snuff films are NOT rumour we can begin to STOP IT. firstly by going after the credit card companies....secondly by shutting down the ip addresses.and thirdly by identifing the producers and most of all the victims. i just dont get why all the secrecy. go after these people and dont stop.dont wait till another child is murdered where the evidence is discovered by accident.

[Medea]

To my knowledge there has never been a snuff film validated by law enforcement to actually exist.

I'm not saying they might not exist somewhere deep under ground but I absolutely reject the idea that this doofus Jacques who can't even cover his own computer tracks for changing a myspace post was able to orchestrate some kind of snuff film web cam live or live taped broadcast for a paying audience.

[Starr58]

Child abuse investigations are typically done confidentially. They don't go running to the microphone with a press release. People who report abuse, other than "mandated reporters" like doctors, can't even find out the results of the investigation.

http://www.dcf.state.vt.us/sites/dcf/files/pdf/fsd/2007_Child_Abuse_and_Neglect_Report.pdf

I believe that there is an extensive investigation under way by DCF and we don't know about it and WON'T know about it unless it comes out at a trial.

You definately have more faith in the Vermont DCF agency, than I, a native Vermonter, has.

[LI_Mom]

i also share your thoughts, and with the 11 hour gap her killing was probably filmed [imo].this type of film carries a big price. ive read on another site [cant remember at this moment] that these kinds of films DO exist, and are viewed via credit accounts internationally. this is a horrible reality that we must face. as soon as all societies face the reality that snuff films are NOT rumour we can begin to STOP IT. firstly by going after the credit card companies....secondly by shutting down the ip addresses.and thirdly by identifing the producers and most of all the victims. i just dont get why all the secrecy. go after these people and dont stop.dont wait till another child is murdered where the evidence is discovered by accident.

It's pure speculation as to whether anyone filmed Brooke's torture or after.

Let's not let our imaginations run away with us... this crime is bad enough just knowing the few facts we do.


And frankly, once it involves CP over the internet.... it's just not that simple to track down everyone involved & put an end to this for good.

LE & the govt. has many other crimes to investigate as well as this one & to the victims of THOSE crimes, they're just as devastating.

[Starr58]

Typically when a crime occurs involving a child Vermont LE will indicate to the media that DCF is involved in the case.

[DianeB]

They have said however that all the emails came from Jacques - home and work computers....i.e. it was one person pretending to be the various members of Breckenridge - hence there was no Breckenridge outside of Jacques.
In one of the affidavits, AR told LE she received both emails and phone calls from men who were supposedly members of Breckenridge.

What men?

[luthersmama]

Typically when a crime occurs involving a child Vermont LE will indicate to the media that DCF is involved in the case.

Do you know that based on statistical data or are you assuming that because other child abuse cases have been exposed to the media? I suspect there are more criminal cases where the DCF involvement has not been revealed. It works better if potential witnesses have confidence that they can report their suspicions without causing a big fuss if they are wrong.

Regardless, I think that ALL of the prosecutors and DCF investigators and state police and FBI in this case are playing 100% by the book and are not going to leak any information. This is a hot case and they are wisely keeping it under wraps to avoid contamination of the jury pool, among other things. Vermont is a small, small state. To bring this case to trial,they have to keep an extremely tight lid on everything.

If the disclosure of DCF involvement is not required, they aren't going to spill it in this case. This one is under extra-super-double-tight security.

IMHO, the increased tight-lipped-ness is partially due to folks like us who suggest that we have a right to know every detail and then dissect it to an atomic level in a public forum.

I just want them to nail the b@$t@rd$. I don't care how long it takes or how careful they have to be. Brooke won't be coming back. Her family will suffer forever. The rest of us can wait. They need to do it right. They have to be able to pick a jury somewhere in Vermont that hasn't been saturated with speculation and hearsay about every detail of the case.

[Shelby77]

About the snuff film thing, a few years back not sure at all how many, in my local area there was a young woman murdered...my memory is pretty vague, but i think they believed she was in town (she was a canadian, that i remember) making a porno and ended up dead. Turned out the whole thing was planned (murdering her on camera while she thought she was making a porno)with the guy videoing it and there was also a female involved who was charged...first i ever heard of a "snuff film", but these 2 made one so unless def not urban legend, this one existed at one time if not still. it happened in philly if anyone cares to verify this i'm sure there is something online.....sad story to say the least...

[marly56]

It's pure speculation as to whether anyone filmed Brooke's torture or after.

Let's not let our imaginations run away with us... this crime is bad enough just knowing the few facts we do.


And frankly, once it involves CP over the internet.... it's just not that simple to track down everyone involved & put an end to this for good.

LE & the govt. has many other crimes to investigate as well as this one & to the victims of THOSE crimes, they're just as devastating.
i stand corrected as far as this case is concerned. my question to anyone reading this post .why is it so difficult for le/government to stop this horrible crime? we have the most up to date technology, including being able to track conversations ,including emails, cell phones which are both computer related. also creditcard companies are regulated and able to be tracked through credit card numbers including a financial profile of the card holder.also the ip address is available to any and all phone companies. it is the phone company that initializes our password...plus any phone company is able to remote view the content of our hard drive [yes they have to get permission /homeland security] i believe it is possible to stop this horrible crime.

[marly56]

About the snuff film thing, a few years back not sure at all how many, in my local area there was a young woman murdered...my memory is pretty vague, but i think they believed she was in town (she was a canadian, that i remember) making a porno and ended up dead. Turned out the whole thing was planned (murdering her on camera while she thought she was making a porno)with the guy videoing it and there was also a female involved who was charged...first i ever heard of a "snuff film", but these 2 made one so unless def not urban legend, this one existed at one time if not still. it happened in philly if anyone cares to verify this i'm sure there is something online.....sad story to say the least...
thank you for your post .i dont understand how the public in general refuse to believe that snuff films exist. murder takes place on a daily basis here in this country and around the world.why not would filming a killing,a murder or a torture be filmed? it would be the ultimate timeless trophy for a demented individual. a way for them to covet their crime.

[Medea]

i stand corrected as far as this case is concerned. my question to anyone reading this post .why is it so difficult for le/government to stop this horrible crime? we have the most up to date technology, including being able to track conversations ,including emails, cell phones which are both computer related. also creditcard companies are regulated and able to be tracked through credit card numbers including a financial profile of the card holder.also the ip address is available to any and all phone companies. it is the phone company that initializes our password...plus any phone company is able to remote view the content of our hard drive [yes they have to get permission /homeland security] i believe it is possible to stop this horrible crime.

I think its kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack...they have to have an idea where to look first.

I can't agree with the idea of just letting the government have access to everybody's hard drive and credit card data all the time so we can eliminate chid porn on the Internet. That is too high a price to pay.

[LI_Mom]

i stand corrected as far as this case is concerned. my question to anyone reading this post .why is it so difficult for le/government to stop this horrible crime? we have the most up to date technology, including being able to track conversations ,including emails, cell phones which are both computer related. also creditcard companies are regulated and able to be tracked through credit card numbers including a financial profile of the card holder.also the ip address is available to any and all phone companies. it is the phone company that initializes our password...plus any phone company is able to remote view the content of our hard drive [yes they have to get permission /homeland security] i believe it is possible to stop this horrible crime.

Marley, I understand what you're saying... it seems like it shouldn't be that hard.

But remember you are talking about electronic images that take seconds to move across an entire world.

You have BILLIONS of people online at the same exact time.... all over the world.

how do you monitor BILLIONS of people & watch every post they make... every email they send/receive.... every chat they are having.

You just can't. You have to get lucky & then when you do... you follow THAT trail & hope it leads to MORE leads.

Then you start all over again & try to find one more little blip that shows CP might be involved....


And that's in between trying to intercept online activity involving terrorists.

Disconnect all computers & all phones IF you want to make a dent in these 2 problems.

[marly56]

I think its kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack...they have to have an idea where to look first.

I can't agree with the idea of just letting the government have access to everybody's hard drive and credit card data all the time so we can eliminate chid porn on the Internet. That is too high a price to pay.
i agree i ,our privacy is all we have in this big big world .my idea is to go after the credit card companies in a relationship with the phone companies. both have access to suspect if a child may be in danger by the activity of the type of website being viewed. there are specific ip addresses that although private are manly trafficked for certain types of sexual interests including beastiality, sexmachine-sex,bondage and discipline etc. these are severe sites where ''anything goes''.

[luthersmama]

About the snuff film thing, a few years back not sure at all how many, in my local area there was a young woman murdered...my memory is pretty vague, but i think they believed she was in town (she was a canadian, that i remember) making a porno and ended up dead. Turned out the whole thing was planned (murdering her on camera while she thought she was making a porno)with the guy videoing it and there was also a female involved who was charged...first i ever heard of a "snuff film", but these 2 made one so unless def not urban legend, this one existed at one time if not still. it happened in philly if anyone cares to verify this i'm sure there is something online.....sad story to say the least...

I remember that one. It got solved, settled and off the radar pretty quickly. It was icky.

[marly56]

Marley, I understand what you're saying... it seems like it shouldn't be that hard.

But remember you are talking about electronic images that take seconds to move across an entire world.

You have BILLIONS of people online at the same exact time.... all over the world.

how do you monitor BILLIONS of people & watch every post they make... every email they send/receive.... every chat they are having.

You just can't. You have to get lucky & then when you do... you follow THAT trail & hope it leads to MORE leads.

Then you start all over again & try to find one more little blip that shows CP might be involved....


And that's in between trying to intercept online activity involving terrorists.

Disconnect all computers & all phones IF you want to make a dent in these 2 problems.
i hope that we will always havethe priviledge of using the internet .there are so many good people in the world and such a wealth of access to information....i am looking at this case of brooke[rip] here is a very violent guy [mj] who is known to law enforcemnt to be a monster. it would be in the best interest of us all if he were monitored. also the people he exchanged emails with . how many of them are predators>it is evident that these ''types'' hang together. my oppinion? anyone who is involved in child pornography IS a destructive personality who has gone over the line. imo once a person goes over this line they are living without boundaries. and without boundaries a person is capable of ANYTHING.

[Elley Mae]

I don't see Brooke's death as being the ultimate prize, they wanted her dead,the torture was just a part of it.

[marly56]

I don't see Brooke's death as being the ultimate prize, they wanted her dead,the torture was just a part of it.
you might be right, on the otherhand mj molested ar since she was 9 years old .that must have been torture for such a young child to endure. then there is that kong sex machine he ordered and had delivered. who was that for? to use on who? then he also alledgedly told ar that the second girl gets her throat cut. then there is the 18 year old girl that he raped and terrorized over a 4 hour period till she begged him to releaser her. he is a monster.

[Elley Mae]

My personal opinion is Brooke knew what was going on,whether or not she had been involved I don't know,but MJ wanted her dead.I feel that the machine was intended for her and I think AR knew what was going to happen.I still have doubts that she left the house that day,just too convenient to have been involved for over 6 weeks,and then Juv2 shows up to take her away. This is my opinion,I know some won't like it.

[marly56]

My personal opinion is Brooke knew what was going on,whether or not she had been involved I don't know,but MJ wanted her dead.I feel that the machine was intended for her and I think AR knew what was going to happen.I still have doubts that she left the house that day,just too convenient to have been involved for over 6 weeks,and then Juv2 shows up to take her away. This is my opinion,I know some won't like it.
good point to think about and considering the timeline of it all.

[Medea]

My personal opinion is Brooke knew what was going on,whether or not she had been involved I don't know,but MJ wanted her dead.I feel that the machine was intended for her and I think AR knew what was going to happen.I still have doubts that she left the house that day,just too convenient to have been involved for over 6 weeks,and then Juv2 shows up to take her away. This is my opinion,I know some won't like it.


I'm not sure if Brooke knew or suspected, but I think its possible.

I also have very serious doubts that AR left as she said she did, with Brooke going upstairs on her own and Juvenile 2 waiting in the car the whole time. What I hope is that investigators will stick to the search for the truth wherever it leads including back to the two minors.

The machine could have been for AR, Denise, Brooke, who knows what else Jacques was getting up to.

[marly56]

I don't see Brooke's death as being the ultimate prize, they wanted her dead,the torture was just a part of it.
i also wanted to add killing/death someone is very different than the act of torture/death. torture takes a very cruel sadistic nature.

[LI_Mom]

i hope that we will always havethe priviledge of using the internet .there are so many good people in the world and such a wealth of access to information....i am looking at this case of brooke[rip] here is a very violent guy [mj] who is known to law enforcemnt to be a monster. it would be in the best interest of us all if he were monitored. also the people he exchanged emails with . how many of them are predators>it is evident that these ''types'' hang together. my oppinion? anyone who is involved in child pornography IS a destructive personality who has gone over the line. imo once a person goes over this line they are living without boundaries. and without boundaries a person is capable of ANYTHING.

There's no question that these people are SICK & need to be removed from society for good... until medical science comes up with a REAL cure.


The internet, drugs, guns.....

you can't remove all potential threats from society in hopes that you'll never have another victim.

Evil people will ALWAYS find a way to claim victims.... they have since the beginning of time & they will until the end of time.

The best protection is to educate your own family to be aware of dangers so they recognize bad situations BEFORE they escalate into terrible things.

[marly56]

I'm not sure if Brooke knew or suspected, but I think its possible.

I also have very serious doubts that AR left as she said she did, with Brooke going upstairs on her own and Juvenile 2 waiting in the car the whole time. What I hope is that investigators will stick to the search for the truth wherever it leads including back to the two minors.

The machine could have been for AR, Denise, Brooke, who knows what else Jacques was getting up to.
the machine could have been for mj's personal pleasure. lol!

[christine2448]

Please continue GENERAL discussions here. (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2394199#post2394199)