Whatever Happened to.....

[Barbara]

LHP?

What happened to that Nobel Prize winning first chapter we all had the honor of previewing? What happened to the book?

What is she doing now?

Whatever happened with her lawsuits? Anything on appeal?

Talk about rotten luck! First, she gets thrown under the bus.. Then, she strikes back and in return has SCUM report that her daughter may be in pornographic materials (unforgivable!) Then, she gets bamboozled by a rotten lawyer who uses her to further his own agenda. She loses of course and now what?

Anybody know what has happened to her?

[Wrangler]

I'll bet she's doing the same thing she's always done. Working.

[jubie]

May I ask to be enlightened? Please?

[Toltec]

I'm also curious Barbara...haven't heard a peep from LHP and Darnay Hoffman. My guess is that he did not fight hard enough for LHP and she just went away. My hope is that Ariana Pugh goes after the skank for defamation of character. She did have to change schools the poor little thing.

[sissi]

Let's count up the dollars she earned while considering herself a celebrity. You guys feel sorry for her? She who "punched" up her story,contradicting her original statements,to sell to a tab? Then the book attempt? Her first chapter was "nothing short of inane",was her "ghost" writer a certain madam? I can't imagine feeling sympathy for any liar,however , we don't know when she lied,was it in her first interview or in her last? I would suspect her earliest and first interview was the only truth she told,the later ,paid,interviews clearly didn't match in content .IMO

[tipper]

"I'm tired of being used while everyone else is getting rich on this case," she said. "I think it's time for me to start making some money, too. This is the last free interview."

February 22, 1999

If I had to guess I say she's probably continuing a lifetime of poor and/or short-sighted decisions.

[Tricia]

May I ask to be enlightened? Please?

Jubie Linda Hoffman Pugh or LHP was the Ramsey's housekeeper.

She appeared to be a good woman who loved JonBenet.

She was the first one pointed to by the Ramseys as a suspect. Or "thrown under the bus" as we call it.

She was very quickly cleared. Not officially but neither the cops, the Boulder D.A. or the Ramsey investigators continued to look at her as a suspect shortly after the murder.

Linda Hoffman Pugh was a very poor woman. I don't know what level of education she had but I don't think she was very worldly in the ways of the media. God Bless her.

Susan Bennett the one time (for a short time) Ramsey friend took it upon herself to post pictures of porn actors and claim the pictures were of Linda Hoffman Pugh's daughter. Keep in mind Bennett did this when she was a child. Also Bennett zeroed in on Pugh's husband claiming he was in the porn industry too. The porn pictures she posted claiming they were pictures of Pugh's young daughter and husband looked NOTHING like them. It was so sick. All in an attempt to somehow show the Pugh's must be guilty in the JonBenet case. Go figure.

Linda then sued the Ramseys for, among other things, telling the police she could have been the killer. Darnay Hoffman, an attorney in NYC, took her case pro bono. He promptly screwed it up. Even he admits he did a poor job.

Darnay Hoffman sent around a chapter from the book he said Linda was writing. It was quite graphic to say the least. All we got was one chapter then nothing. I don't know what happened to the book but we are waiting to see if it gets published.

So in other words Linda Hoffman Pugh was a woman who cleaned up after Patsy. She loved the family. She was poor and not highly educated. For her loyalty to the Ramseys she was thrown under the bus and her daughter's and husbands names were splashed all over the Internet under the pictures of porn stars. The reason I believe the Ramseys and their army turned on her so quickly is because she knew about their personal lives. She knew John Ramsey was cold and Patsy was not as nice as she appeared. That scared the Ramseys. So they do what they do best. Accuse innocent people and let others do their dirty work.

In my opinion that is.

[tipper]

Alternatively - She was the Ramsey's cleaning lady who they treated very well and who had nothing but nice things to say about them until she learned the tabs wouldn't pay for positive info on the Ramseys. There was no mention of how "cold" John was or Patsy's lack of "niceness" in her early interviews. For Schiller's book she describes Patsy as "warm and kind, just a sweet person"

The Ramseys did raise her name as a possible suspect the morning of the 26th. Going on the idea that they are innocent, they would have been foolish not to: She had a key to the house and knew the Ramseys plans, she was in the midst of money troubles, her husband was an alcoholic, and she, on at least one occasion, said something about JonBenet being kidnapped. That morning Patsy also said she didn't think Linda would have done it.

Her book chapter left pretty much everyone speechless. I'm sure there is a copy somewhere on the internet. It's a far cry from what she told the police. I'd like to see her answers under oath.

I believe she's a high school drop out. I've seen her interviewed, I think she's easily led.

[Shylock]

Alternatively - She was the Ramsey's cleaning lady who they treated very well and who had nothing but nice things to say about them until she learned the tabs wouldn't pay for positive info on the Ramseys.
Wrong Tipper. She had nothing but nice things to say about them until she figured out she had been thrown under the bus and she wasn't the "extended family member" she thought she was. Not long after that, the Rammer's Skank trumped up some total bull chit to make hirself look important and got LHP's family investigated for child sexual abuse.

LHP had GOOD reason to change her mind about the Rammers, and it had NOTHING to do with money. Her desire to make money off the case came later.

[Tricia]

Wrong Tipper. She had nothing but nice things to say about them until she figured out she had been thrown under the bus and she wasn't the "extended family member" she thought she was. Not long after that, the Rammer's Skank trumped up some total bull chit to make hirself look important and got LHP's family investigated for child sexual abuse.

LHP had GOOD reason to change her mind about the Rammers, and it had NOTHING to do with money. Her desire to make money off the case came later.
That's right Shylock.

She loved the family. She was protective of them. Imagine if this had been someone you loved. You would, in the beginning, only say good things about them. Not lie really but you wouldn't look at them honestly. You would only think about their pain and your pain.

Then you find out you are a suspect big time thanks to this family you loved.

The cloud of haze clears. You begin to realize all those things you tried to ignore now mean something.

That's what happened with LHP.

[tipper]

She got a pot of money from the Enquirer within the first year and supposedly she didn't know about the Ramseys giving her name until 1999. Either way, her descriptions of the Ramseys changed and truth doesn't appear to have been the motivation.

If the Ramseys are expected to accept that they were prime suspects why shouldn't LHP? She and/or Mervin had the means, motive and opportunity. I have yet to see a motive presented for the Ramseys that holds any logic.

[Barbara]

She got a pot of money from the Enquirer within the first year and supposedly she didn't know about the Ramseys giving her name until 1999. Either way, her descriptions of the Ramseys changed and truth doesn't appear to have been the motivation.

If the Ramseys are expected to accept that they were prime suspects why shouldn't LHP? She and/or Mervin had the means, motive and opportunity. I have yet to see a motive presented for the Ramseys that holds any logic.

The Ramseys, as the only other persons in the house that night MUST accept that they would be the prime suspects. They stated that themselves during an interview, despite their actions to the contrary.

LHP and others should not have to expect to be suspects. They should expect to be questioned, but not as suspects.

What would be a logical motive for anyone to kill a 6 year old little girl? None that I can think of. LHP is less likely to have a motive than just about anyone else. She was supposed to pick up a check for $2000 (I think that's the amount, but I could be wrong) when she came back to the house after they left for Charlevoix. Why would she jeopardize getting that check, killing JBR before she had it? (for those who consider her a suspect)

[jubie]

Tricia


Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to answer my question!!



Jubie

[Sprocket]

I have yet to see a motive presented for the Ramseys that holds any logic.
Well that says a lot. And what would "logic" be to you?

JonBenet, that perfect child... wet the bed... chronically. This is a documented fact of this case. 15% of children over the age of 5 have a bedwetting problem.

http://www.familymanagement.com/facts/english/facts18.html

Toilet training & bedwetting issues are common problems where parents can and do lose their temper. To say that this issue could NEVER have happened in the Ramsey household is, imho, to live on the river DENIAL....

Another wet bed -------> Rage, anger, ------> Accident ------> cover-up

[tipper]

Well that says a lot. And what would "logic" be to you?

JonBenet, that perfect child... wet the bed... chronically. This is a documented fact of this case. 15% of children over the age of 5 have a bedwetting problem.

http://www.familymanagement.com/facts/english/facts18.html

Toilet training & bedwetting issues are common problems where parents can and do lose their temper. To say that this issue could NEVER have happened in the Ramsey household is, imho, to live on the river DENIAL....

Another wet bed -------> Rage, anger, ------> Accident ------> cover-upNot sure how that "says a lot" to you. Logic would be - A serial killer who only kills red-headed women. We know that most serial killers were abused one way or another as children. His abusive mother was a red-head. His choice of victim was "logical."

I have yet to read any contemporaneous accounts of Patsy losing her temper and flying into a rage over JonBenet's bedwetting. She seems (like most of us who had bedwetters) to have taken it in stride and changed sheets as necessary.

For your scenario to work she would have had to fly into a rage over a wet bed, physically assault her daughter, decide her daughter was dead, kill her again with the garotte, sexually abuse her, and cold-bloodedly set up and carry out the kidnapping scenario. None of that fits into Patsy's prior behavior patterns. That's why I say I don't see any logic in it.

Added: There are other parents whose past behavior would make this a logical scenario. But I don't think it is in this case.

[Sprocket]

We don't really know, what went on in that house; whether or not, Patsy handled this bed wetting in "stride" or not. I mean, unless, you know the family "personally," ..........

But losing one's temper over a bed wetting incident is NOT uncommon. You're acting like it is.

The bag of diaper/underpants was hanging half out of the closet.... there's a photo to prove that. The Red T-Shirt that Patsy FIRST SAID she went to bed in, (before she "changed" her recolection on that) was balled up on the floor in JBR's bathroom. I believe there was a photo of that, too.

The sheets on JBR's bed were missing and/or never recovered by the initial detectives in the house, which was NOT Det. Thomas btw....

And regarding serial killers..... you might want to read up on a few, before giving an example such as this to explain serial killer "logic."

[tipper]

We don't really know, what went on in that house; whether or not, Patsy handled this bed wetting in "stride" or not. I mean, unless, you know the family "personally," ..........

But losing one's temper over a bed wetting incident is NOT uncommon. You're acting like it is.

The bag of diaper/underpants was hanging half out of the closet.... there's a photo to prove that. The Red T-Shirt that Patsy FIRST SAID she went to bed in, (before she "changed" her recolection on that) was balled up on the floor in JBR's bathroom. I believe there was a photo of that, too.

The sheets on JBR's bed were missing and/or never recovered by the initial detectives in the house, which was NOT Det. Thomas btw....

And regarding serial killers..... you might want to read up on a few, before giving an example such as this to explain serial killer "logic."
I can tell you that I've never lost my temper over a wet bed and I have yet to read of an incident where Patsy did.

The quickly corrected error Patsy made over the red shirt has been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere.

I have seen the photos of the sheets and I don't see any indication they had been wet.

I was not attempting to explain serial killer logic. I was attempting to explain my use of the word logic as it relates to motive.

[Spade]

I attended a Q&A with Larry Schiller in Boulder when PMPT was published. He admitted to the group that he had hired LHP as his cleaning lady while he was researching the book.

[Sprocket]

So, you were a parent who didn't lose it over a bed wetting incident. So, you don't have that experience.... But there are many children who experienced it on the receiving end... Quite often, people are unable to extrapolate and understand how a situation could happen, just for that same reason: THEY'VE never had the experience.

Just because you never HEARD or READ anywhere that Patsy didn't lose it, doesn't mean, it could NOT have happened....

In the same vein, people, unable to understand that sociopaths are lacking a conscience, try to "logic" and "reason" away, why Scooter (imho, a garden variety sociopath) killed Laci. I mean, they throw up reason after reason after reason, an argument, Laci found out about Amber, etc., because they simply can not understand what living without a conscience is like. They've never had that "experience."

[tipper]

So, you were a parent who didn't lose it over a bed wetting incident. So, you don't have that experience.... But there are many children who experienced it on the receiving end... Quite often, people are unable to extrapolate and understand how a situation could happen, just for that same reason: THEY'VE never had the experience.

Just because you never HEARD or READ anywhere that Patsy didn't lose it, doesn't mean, it could NOT have happened....

In the same vein, people, unable to understand that sociopaths are lacking a conscience, try to "logic" and "reason" away, why Scooter (imho, a garden variety sociopath) killed Laci. I mean, they throw up reason after reason after reason, an argument, Laci found out about Amber, etc., because they simply can not understand what living without a conscience is like. They've never had that "experience."
The Laci Peterson case is a garden variety domestic homicide which proves my point. When the police started digging they found behaviors in Scott Peterson's background which suggested he could be the killer. Further digging developed enough evidence for an indictment. Same with David Westerfield.

I've never said Patsy could NOT have lost it. I have said I've never seen any evidence that she did. I think if one is going to build a theory that requires a person to react in a particular way then it should be built on real evidence.

[Sprocket]

The Laci Peterson case is a garden variety domestic homicide which proves my point. When the police started digging they found behaviors in Scott Peterson's background which suggested he could be the killer. Further digging developed enough evidence for an indictment. Same with David Westerfield.

I've never said Patsy could NOT have lost it. I have said I've never seen any evidence that she did. I think if one is going to build a theory that requires a person to react in a particular way then it should be built on real evidence.
I don't need to look to Patsy & John's past. Nor to Peterson's past. Post crime/incindent behavior, is what is the MOST revealing. To me, the Parents post incident behavior is VERY revealing. Post incident behavior is what detectives look at. And Patsy & John did everything they could to hinder this investigation. Why do you think that was? No way on this earth can you look at their behavior post incident and call it cooperative.

Just like Scooter couldn't spend the first night after Laci went missing in his house, neigher did the Ramseys ever go back to "that house." In fact, they evaded the police, and any indepth questioning, just like Scott Peterson did. When did they hand over their clothing? When did they sit down to be interviewed? MONTHS LATER. That post crime behavior is NOT the behavior of an innocent individual. You are entitled to you opinion about it, but, to me, a parent who doesn't spend every waking moment cooperating with police....has got plenty to hide.

[tipper]

I think the same emotion that caused Brenda van Dam to not want a memorial where Danielle's body was found caused the Ramseys to not want to go back to the house. If they were capable of doing all else they have been accused of they wouldn't turn a hair at returning to the house.

I believe Schiller quotes the FBI as saying both the Ramseys AND the BPD were responsible for the delays in being interviewed. I agree.

I would have to look it up to be sure but my recollection is that the Ramseys handed over their clothing about 13 months after the crime. BPD didn't ask for them until about 12 months after the crime.

[Shylock]

When the police started digging they found behaviors in Scott Peterson's background which suggested he could be the killer. Further digging developed enough evidence for an indictment. Same with David Westerfield.
There was nothing in Westerfield's background that suggested he would kidnap and murder a little girl. And I don't think Scott Peterson's cheating on his wife points to him being a murderer. A lot of people (like John Ramsey) cheat on their spouses and don't kill them.

[Ivy]

It amazes me that certain posters who insist that Scott Peterson is guilty even though there's no physical evidence implicating him in Laci's death as far as we the public know, are the same posters who insist the Ramseys are innocent even though there is physical evidence (hair, fibers, fake ransom note written by Patsy) implicating them in JonBenet's death.

imo

[Sprocket]

It amazes me that certain posters who insist that Scott Peterson is guilty even though there's no physical evidence implicating him in Laci's death as far as we the public know, are the same posters who insist the Ramseys are innocent even though there is physical evidence (hair, fibers, fake ransom note written by Patsy) implicating them in JonBenet's death.

imo I think they're both guilty. And it's not the "evidence" in Peterson's case; it's his post incident behavior that convinced me. Sociopaths LACK a conscience. And Scooter-speak, to me (since I've studied this) shows evidence of him being a sociopath, and lacking a conscience. (And I've heard that speech before, where, we can't "diagnose" him; only a professional can...Sorry. I disagree.) Behavior IS revealing about individuals. Enter a room at a party; observe a few people; there are things you can tell about people just by being in their company for a few minutes.

The ransom note in the Ramsey case is pretty damming evidence. However, it was also the Ramsey's behavior post incident that convinced me they have some knowledge, or involvement in the death of their daughter.

Again and again and again and again. Innocent people, ACT innocent. There is a recognizable pattern of behavior, where having a conscience, will show in their actions and speech. They don't have a THING to hide.

[Toltec]

Not one poster in this forum knew the Ramseys personally although some think they did. Some in the swamp started naming JonBenet by her pet name Johnnie-B...oh puhleeze!

LHP knew what went on in the home...not the Skank or hir minions. Close personal friend? I believe it was Patsy who asked LHP for some advise when it came to lovemaking??? What we did find out is that when Patsy disciplined JonBenet, she would take JonBenet into her bathroom to scold her....and it is my belief that Patsy took JonBenet into her bathroom Christmas nite.

Patsy did state that she grabbed some pullups that night to pack them for the trip to Florida....

IMO

[Wrangler]

[QUOTE=tipper]I think the same emotion that caused Brenda van Dam to not want a memorial where Danielle's body was found caused the Ramseys to not want to go back to the house. If they were capable of doing all else they have been accused of they wouldn't turn a hair at returning to the house.

[QUOTE]

I'm sorry I have to speak up here. That first sentace shows me exactly how you try to defend the Ramseys and how skewed your thinking on this is.
The vanDam's didn't want to memorialize the dump site where their daughter's body was discarded like trash after Westerfield had used her and killed her. That is nothing like the Ramsey's leaving their home never to return.
JonBenet's body was not dumped, naked, in a place people dump their trash, out in the open and exposed to predators and insects for over a month. That other family who's daughter was murdered in her own bed never left their house never to return either.

[jubie]

Years ago a friend of ours broke his hand/wrist in three places. He said he fell while cleaning the gutters (or something lame like that) and we teased him about it every now and then calling him 'crash'. I always got a uneasy feeling looking at his eyes when it came up but I couldn't understand why. ANYWAY years later he told us (actually his wife did) that he had to tell the truth because he wanted to apologize to his kids. The kids were about 5 and 8 years old, they were bickering non-stop and Tom had warned them several times to knock it off. I guess you could say he snapped and his fist flew towards the eight year old who ducked and Tom's hand/wrist smashed against
a corner of the wall, I guess he had his back to the kids when he started the swing and as he turned around he said he knew it was gonna hit Jeff and it was the worst feeling he ever felt in his life. ANYHOW the kids never said anything and after many years he wanted the truth out and for his kids to know how sorry he was.

Whew that's alot words to tell a little story, sorry for rambling. My point is that this is a great family and NEVER before or after has he done anything like this, the kids openly talked with mum and dad about this one incident and she said you could tell the kids were happy it was out and telling the truth it was a one time thing. BUT what if Jeff hadn't ducked?


Parents DO get mad and lose it! So what happens when you get an already unstable parent in one of these situations?


Patsy Ramsey is strange. Plain and simple. IF she hurt JonBenet I don't believe for a second she'd take responsibility.

[tipper]

.

I'm sorry I have to speak up here. That first sentace shows me exactly how you try to defend the Ramseys and how skewed your thinking on this is.
The vanDam's didn't want to memorialize the dump site where their daughter's body was discarded like trash after Westerfield had used her and killed her. That is nothing like the Ramsey's leaving their home never to return.
JonBenet's body was not dumped, naked, in a place people dump their trash, out in the open and exposed to predators and insects for over a month. That other family who's daughter was murdered in her own bed never left their house never to return either.Of course I try to defend them. I don't think they killed their daughter. Others here try to villify them. They think they did kill their daughter. That's how it works.

Proceeding from my belief that they are innocent do you think I should feel the van Dams have a better claim on pain than the Ramseys? You're correct that Brenda didn't want to memorialize the dump site. That was certainly her choice to make and I could understand her reasons. Other parents have made an equally understandable different choice:
______________________________

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/18/newsid_2514000/2514769.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/18/newsid_2514000/2514769.stm)

…The partly covered body was lying 10 yards away from the A29 between Pulborough and Billinghurst
Sarah's parents, Sara and Michael, spent 20 minutes at the scene and laid flowers there. They looked at the tributes left by hundreds of well-wishers and police. …
http://www.mississauga.com/mi/insidenews/story/1781843p-2096533c.html (http://www.mississauga.com/mi/insidenews/story/1781843p-2096533c.html)

…Meanwhile, a makeshift memorial of flowers and candles near the crime scene is growing bigger with each passing hour.
Nearby residents, police and strangers from as far away as Orangeville have expressed their condolences by leaving flowers.
"When Cecilia went missing, she became everyone's child and everyone's daughter," said Streetsville resident Julia Langford, a mother of three who spent about an hour at the memorial with her children. "My kids prayed for her safe return every night they went to bed. She became like a sister to them. How could anyone do this?" …
_________________________________________

Most parents of children murdered in the home don't have the financial options available to the Ramseys. Given the same circumstances I'm not sure which decision I'd make. But I know I wouldn't want to walk around my house wondering about and imagining the terrible things that had been done to my daughter there and thinking about how hurt and frightened she was on that night.

Brenda van Dam says it is hard having Westerfield's house in the neighborhood. I suspect every time she sees an RV she thinks of how Danielle died. How would she feel if every day she had to walk over the room where Danielle was assaulted and killed?

[Britt]

I believe Schiller quotes the FBI as saying both the Ramseys AND the BPD were responsible for the delays in being interviewed.
All the more reason the Ramseys should've been a constant physical presence at the BPD to get the murder solved. If she were my child, they wouldn't be able to get rid of me. That's how an INNOCENT parent would act.

No amount of RST spin can make the Ramseys' behavior appear "normal" to anyone with common sense. Putting them in the same category as authentic parent-victims is an insult to the true victims.

[Sprocket]

If my child was found dead in my own home...would I be worred MORE about getting MYSELF and everyone possibly related to me an attorney, OR, would I be phoning the police department everyday, myself, instead of my attorneys, to see how I could help.

Innocent people, behave innocently.

[Blazeboy3]

ditto...it's a "snap-out-of-it WAKE-UP call" ... some take, some don't!? IMHO the parents(theR's) missed "the opportunity" to deal w/what they did...too simple IMHO and so sad :doh: :sick: :bang:

[Shylock]

How would she feel if every day she had to walk over the room where Danielle was assaulted and killed?
She has to walk by (or into) the room every day that Danielle was taken from. I don't imagine that feeling is much different.

[tipper]

She has to walk by (or into) the room every day that Danielle was taken from. I don't imagine that feeling is much different.
Brenda apparently is comforted by Danielle's rooom. I can understand that. This is what she thinks about the rest of it.


http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0301/03/lkl.00.html
VAN DAM: Yes, I do. Every day. And I feel -- you know, I know that we're going to have to leave our home because it's just not possible to stay there. My boys do not want to move. They do not want to leave their friends. They do not want to leave their school. But we have to. We have no choice unless we drive by that house every day. It's not something that I can do.

GRACE: Brenda, why is it you say you've got to move?

VAN DAM: I just think if we -- I can't drive by that house every day knowing that she was hurt in there. And that he just -- he came and he took my baby out of her room. And, you know, he just violated our whole family in the worst way possible. And I just -- I don't -- I'm not ready to give up her room. I really need to keep her room now, just so that I have a place to go and be with her. And I think that if we move to a new home and we get a fresh new start, that it might help in the healing process.

[Shylock]

Brenda apparently is comforted by Danielle's rooom. I can understand that.
Very interesting Tipper, thanks for posting that. Now it makes me wonder about Patsy and how she just abandoned everything about JonBenet. Not only did she not want to be in JB's room (like Brenda), but they move to a new location where there is no bedroom for JonBenet--like she never even existed.

[Sprocket]

Brenda apparently is comforted by Danielle's rooom. I can understand that. This is what she thinks about the rest of it.


http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0301/03/lkl.00.html
VAN DAM: Yes, I do. Every day. And I feel -- you know, I know that we're going to have to leave our home because it's just not possible to stay there. My boys do not want to move. They do not want to leave their friends. They do not want to leave their school. But we have to. We have no choice unless we drive by that house every day. It's not something that I can do.

GRACE: Brenda, why is it you say you've got to move?

VAN DAM: I just think if we -- I can't drive by that house every day knowing that she was hurt in there. And that he just -- he came and he took my baby out of her room. And, you know, he just violated our whole family in the worst way possible. And I just -- I don't -- I'm not ready to give up her room. I really need to keep her room now, just so that I have a place to go and be with her. And I think that if we move to a new home and we get a fresh new start, that it might help in the healing process.
It's obvious Brenda is conflicted. Wanting to be near her daughter through her daughter's room, and at the same time, seeing the house of the man who kidnapped her, every day. I'm sure there were a wash of conflicting emotions. And, her family took the time, to make a decision, on how it would afffect their other children.. They didn't leave their home, almost immediately, like the Ramsey's did.

[Barbara]

Brenda Van Dam has been actively involved in changing the laws and such regarding children and the violence, etc. against them.

Patsy Ramsey has done nothing in that regard. It would be unfair to criticize Patsy on that alone, but the difference is that the Ramseys wrote a book to pay their legal expenses, etc., all the while claiming the proceeds would be going to the JonBenet Ramsey Foundation. They spent so much time talking about change for children who become victims and then did nothing except collecting donations and using it for themselves. Paying legal expenses that you chose on your own to incur is not raising charity money. But, like all things Ramsey, charity begins at home (for them).

For that, I do criticize them. Not everyone can be like Brenda Van Dam, Walsh, Klaas, etc., but those who can't don't make claims that they will.

Therein lies the difference.

[Shylock]

Therein lies the difference.
And where is the Ramsey web page with case information and the "Tip Line"?

The Ramseys have given up the search for their daughter's killer it seems. I guess they are too busy trying to line up social functions and lunch time speaking engagements to care about the guy who is supposedly out there wandering the streets with JonBenet's blood on his hands.

Or maybe the Rammers expect to find their big, bad, intruder just skating around town:
The Charlevoix Community Skatepark Steering Committee was formed in December of 2003 to champion the completion of a community-built recreation facility...
John Ramsey of Charlevoix Comm. Skatepark Comm. Fundraiser Chair
Patsy Ramsey of Charlevoix Community Skatepark Committee Vice Pres

[K777angel]

Or maybe the Rammers expect to find their big, bad, intruder just skating around town:
The Charlevoix Community Skatepark Steering Committee was formed in December of 2003 to champion the completion of a community-built recreation facility...
John Ramsey of Charlevoix Comm. Skatepark Comm. Fundraiser Chair
Patsy Ramsey of Charlevoix Community Skatepark Committee Vice Pres

My guess is that Burke is probably a "skater." (Skateboards)
He probably complained that Charlevoix didn't have a skatepark so mom and dad are helping to provide one for him.
They just recently built one in our town.
And I can tell you it is NOT a place you want your kid.
I don't know what this one will be like, or if Burke is even a "skater" - but that would be my guess. Why else would John and Patsy care about a skatepark being built??

[Ivy]

At maketoast's forum a couple months ago or so, there was a post that included the URL for a website owned by Burke Ramsey and his Atlanta friends. There were photos of Burke skateboarding. He appeared to be quite good at it.

imo

[Shylock]

There were photos of Burke skateboarding. He appeared to be quite good at it.
We have a skate park in our town, but you're not going to see any 17 year olds at it. Around here that kind of activity is for jr. high kids and under.

In my town, if Burke is 17 and still skating, it tells me he's a real backwards geek.

[Camper]

We have a skate park in our town, but you're not going to see any 17 year olds at it. Around here that kind of activity is for jr. high kids and under.

In my town, if Burke is 17 and still skating, it tells me he's a real backwards geek.

Heck I saw a boy/man about 22 years old on a skateboard, being towed by a large dog.

A person whose emotion, and overwork, and doing too much for whatever reason, busy busy, is a prime candidate for 'losing' it over 'just one more thing'. Could be bedwetting or choose a reason.

I personally believe this murder was done to cover someones behind over JBR telling on them, over perhaps deviant sexual events. In the beginning of Schillers book as I recall, I donut have the book any longer, JonBenet talking with the caretaker of the Ramsey lawn, and saying something to the effect about roses, and do they know their thorns hurt. Hmmm.

I hope wherever the Pughs are, they have mended their personal personna created by the Ramseys. A check indeed for $2,000.00 for LHP, it should have been 'prepared and left in a prominent place for Mrs. Pugh.

The fact that it was not, speaks volumes to me, about who did what on that murder night.

Mrs. Ramsey speaking so personally to Mrs. Pugh about sex indicates to me a regard for Mrs. Pugh. Did Mrs. Ramsey disregard friendships when they no longer served her purposes? IF NOT why was the check not prepared and ready for her household friend?

[Shylock]

Heck I saw a boy/man about 22 years old on a skateboard, being towed by a large dog.
I should have been a little clearer in my statement. We have a nice paved path nearby that runs for about 10 miles down a scenic river. I've seen adults in their 30's and 40's on that path roller blading.

No adult uses the skate park however. That's a place little kids go.

[BlueCrab]

Heck I saw a boy/man about 22 years old on a skateboard, being towed by a large dog.

My grandson, living with me, gave up skateboards last year at age 15. Yet the kids have an uncle who continued trick bicycle riding into his twenties, making a living from endorsements. "The Butcher" gave it up this year when a child came along -- so who knows when a young person is ready to hang it up?

JMO

[Shawna]

A few days ago I was watching the Toronto news. The top story was about a mentally challenged kid being set on fire at a skatebording park. Shame on the Ramsey's for wanting to build one in Charlevoix.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/04/17/426072.html

[dshadow]

We have a skate park in our town, but you're not going to see any 17 year olds at it. Around here that kind of activity is for jr. high kids and under.

In my town, if Burke is 17 and still skating, it tells me he's a real backwards geek.

Most of the skater kids in my town are between the ages of 13 and 17, but there are some really good skateboarders around town who are upwards of 21 who will probably still be skating when they are 30. Tony Hawk will be 36 in May, and he's arguably the most popular professional skateboarder in existence. I think most pro skateboarders are between like 18 and 28. Granted, you have to be really frickin' good to have a shot at a pro skateboarding career. Sorry if this is off-topic...

[why_nutt]

I strongly suspect this sudden interest in bringing a skatepark to Charlevoix has less to do with giving boys (the overwhelming majority of skateboarders) something to occupy their time, and more to do with John Ramsey's political need to involve his name in something which contributes to the Charlevoix community. At this point, every single thing John involves his name with is to be interpreted as furthering his political ambitions.

[Britt]

Mrs. Ramsey speaking so personally to Mrs. Pugh about sex indicates to me a regard for Mrs. Pugh. Did Mrs. Ramsey disregard friendships when they no longer served her purposes? IF NOT why was the check not prepared and ready for her household friend?
Interesting question, Camper. Yes, I think trying to frame Linda could be considered "disregarding a friendship." Clearly, Pugh was the Ramseys' first intended framee:

From JonBenet The Police Files:

ST: John, I've noticed you made a comment on the 26th about this being an inside job. But if this was someone that you know who did this, who would have had the best opportunity to have come into your home and move throughout your home and write a note on a pad in your home, to have done this?

JR: Well, that morning we had certainly focused on the cleaning lady. I mean she had free reign of our house, she had a key, she had . . . worked there on Thanksgiving weekend when we were out of town. There had been some very bizarre behavior. Shortly before we left town, she called and asked Patsy if she could borrow some money, and Patsy said yes. And then she called, I think it was Saturday, and was crying and had had a fight with her sister, and Patsy said her sister was really mean and she hadn't paid her rent and she threw her out of the house. And, ah, that was my first suspicion. And based on the room was just such an out-of-the-way place that, I just don't think anybody could have walked in off the street... p. 127-128.

"Bizarre behavior"? lol... that's pretty funny coming from John Ramsey. Anyway, I guess people of John's status think it's "bizarre" when the little people get upset about money and need to ask for a loan.

These dirtbags tried to pin this on Linda from the get-go.

[Camper]

LHP did not need to murder JonBenet, why not just take Patsy's checkbook and write checks for all that she needed, since she most likely knew where the checkbook was also, duh.

Poor John, inside job indeed. Well lets name all who were inside that night that we know of, hmmm, there was John, Patsy, JonBenet and Burke. Did I forget anyone?

[Toltec]

My son is 26 and still skates...he met Tony Hawk when he was 11.

Jonbenet wanted to be an olympic ice-skater but Patsy had other plans for her. Never no mention of ice-skating lessons...

Nice camper Camper...long time no hear. Miss you to pieces!

[Blazeboy3]

LHP did not need to murder JonBenet, why not just take Patsy's checkbook and write checks for all that she needed, since she most likely knew where the checkbook was also, duh.

Poor John, inside job indeed. Well lets name all who were inside that night that we know of, hmmm, there was John, Patsy, JonBenet and Burke. Did I forget anyone?
Exactly...nope, you didn't miss a thing/thought! Did you see/watch them on LKL the other nite? What a toot/programming in progess IMHO... :silenced:

p.s. surely we are to think it was "the monster" ... WITHIN ya think?

[Camper]

Thanks Toltec, you too.

Blazeboy, I ALWAYS tune into LKL to see who the guest/s is/are. That show slipped my memory, I was out for the entire evening, dinner and etc, that night!!

Whut did the 'couple' espouse? Was JR using the show as a political vehicle? IF so, what did he offer as his expertise in running for office?

I also thought PR was on her last pegs 'again', how did she look?

[VespaElf]

Well that says a lot. And what would "logic" be to you?

JonBenet, that perfect child... wet the bed... chronically. This is a documented fact of this case. 15% of children over the age of 5 have a bedwetting problem.

http://www.familymanagement.com/facts/english/facts18.html

Toilet training & bedwetting issues are common problems where parents can and do lose their temper. To say that this issue could NEVER have happened in the Ramsey household is, imho, to live on the river DENIAL....

Another wet bed -------> Rage, anger, ------> Accident ------> cover-up


I can't tell you how many newstories Ive read about a child being killed (in a "fit of rage") over a toileting issue BUT since usually the stories seem to involve a certain class of people shall we say and the murderer is the father/stepfather/mom's boyfriend scenario I think alot of people,esp. the majority of our society who are still under the false assumption that just because a woman gives birth that means shes a good mother,just won't let themselves fathom a mother committing such an act ,esp. a rich, "well to do" woman like Patsy. These are the same people who can't belive a 9 year old could kill his sister during "sexual play" or a Father couldve been molesting his daughter because they're seemingly educated and wealthy and "upstanding"!

Its this mindset that screwed up the JBR investigation from the word go and has kept any of those three highly plausable theories(Patsy did it,Burke did it or John did it) from being properly investigated by LE............All of this is JMO of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!