Theories

[SleuthyGal]

It has relevance because if there was a little love triangle going on, where is the evidence of a love triangle?there is a possibility that someone else had motive. what was their motive?

I believe that they do go where the stories lead them, they sure did in this case.....I think it worked out just like someone wanted it to. So CPD goes where the stories lead them...and if there is no EVIDENCE what happens then? However, they go to BC's house and car and find evidence that is seized during a SW, but that is discounted because why???

Perhaps in the coming days a SW for JA and friends will surface...you just never know....I think based on what she testified to in court and what she said in the 911 calls...there are some inconsistencies and it might be worth a peeky boo by CPD. And I'm sure if any SWs are obtained we will learn about them. So far there have been no others. Is there a reason you are pointing your finger at just JA and not any of Brad's (male) friends? It seems highly selective to point only at JA since there seems to be a penchant to point.

My comments in red.

[rwesafe]

I'm asking for evidence that points to the (validity of the) theory...and so far there is no factual evidence that has been brought forward to corroborate this theory.

There has been no FACTUAL evidence to support the theory that BC did it either.

I am in the theory thread, I don't need facts or corroboration for a theory.

[SleuthyGal]

Sleuthlygal,

Just a question not iron clad. We know no more about the movements of JA that morning than Brad. You don't know and I don't know, but CPD will have obtained that info. I am not convinced that Brad is innocent or guilty. I thought it odd to begin with that JA would call the police so early in the search, usually you have to wait 24 hours before reporting a missing person. Did you notice she asked the 911 operator how long she should wait and if it should be 24 hrs? The operator said there was no certain time to wait to call. I think the CPD may have concentrated on Brad right off for many reasons, The intimate partner is always looked at...what made it compelling is that his story set off the hinky meter and they kept lookingwhat concerns me regarding Brad is lack of arrest. As has been discussed many times, that is NOT the decision of the CPD--that is the decision of the DA The things missing from Nancy's person have to be somewhere, the stud earring would be hard to find esp if it is in someone's carpet somewhere. Well we know NC's diamond necklace, the one HP saw her in everyday they were together, which HP testified was almost every single day, was found in Brad's possession--that is in the court recordLike everyone else I want a killer off the streets, regardless of who that killer is. It would seem to me that anyone or anything that had contact with the victim should have been closely looked at in the days following the discovery of her body. How do you know that did not occur? If by some chance BC is not guilty, the true killer has had months to cover tracks and may never be caught at this point. IMO there are just some things that do not add up, of course I understand the CPD keeping evidence under wraps so as not to show thier hand, the autospy notes would also be helpful to clear up some questions as well, esp regarding the mark on her neck and the insect infestation on certain parts of her body. Right now questions, questions, questions without answers, it is frustrating as I am sure it is frustrating for her family.

comments in red.

[SleuthyGal]

There has been no FACTUAL evidence to support the theory that BC did it either.

I am in the theory thread, I don't need facts or corroboration for a theory.

Sure there is. Brad's lies for one. Brad's 4 hr cleaning binge when he is known not to clean. There are lists and lists in fact. That you discount them doesn't make them not exist. So you are saying your theories are based on no facts. Got it.

[rwesafe]

My comments in red.

I am not pointing a finger...I am theorizing about JA because I find that her actions were strange. It's just a theory. It could very well have been a male that committed this crime, but I don't think it was a friend of Brad's...he really didn't have any...

[justthinking2008]

Sleuthygal,

I have worked as an investigator in private sector, in order to catch someone, sometimes you have to think outside the box. JA involvment here is unquestionable, she reported her missing. Once again, I do not know who killed NC, but everyone associated with her in the last 24 hours of her life should be questioned.

[SleuthyGal]

Sleuthygal,

I have worked as an investigator in private sector, in order to catch someone, sometimes you have to think outside the box. JA involvment here is unquestionable, she reported her missing. Once again, I do not know who killed NC, but everyone associated with her in the last 24 hours of her life should be questioned.

I agree. Why are you assuming everyone associated with Nancy in the last 24 hours of her life was NOT questioned?

[rwesafe]

My comments in red.

Sure there is. Brad's lies for one. Brad's 4 hr cleaning binge when he is known not to clean. There are lists and lists in fact. That you discount them doesn't make them not exist. So you are saying your theories are based on no facts. Got it.

I don't understand why you are so defensive about this JA theory and, you don't know that BC lies, that is speculation, not fact. You don't know that BC doesn't clean, that also is speculation...that you acknowledge them does not make them fact. Unless you are God and or lived with BC, you are merely assuming that they are true.


the·o·ry /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ries. 1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4. the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5. a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6. contemplation or speculation.
7. guess or conjecture.

From dictionary.com note 6 and 7.

[SleuthyGal]

I don't think it was a friend of Brad's...he really didn't have any... I think SH, MH and a couple others might disagree with you as they consider themselves friends of Brad.

[rwesafe]

I think SH, MH and a couple others might disagree with you as they consider themselves friends of Brad.

Well, I think we know very well that MH was questioned by the police, I am not sure about SH....I'm not sure what they did that morning or that day so it's hard for me to say that I find their behavior that day strange....

[SleuthyGal]

I don't understand why you are so defensive about this JA theory and, you don't know that BC lies, that is speculation, not fact. You don't know that BC doesn't clean, that also is speculation...that you acknowledge them does not make them fact. Unless you are God and or lived with BC, you are merely assuming that they are true.

I'm trying to understand what facts or evidence lead to these theories because I'm trying to logically follow the various theories put forth. And my understanding based on what has been posited so far is that these theories have not been developed from any evidence. And that explains why I'm not able to follow the theory. :smile:

[justthinking2008]

I am not assuming anything, we both know what assume does. As rwesafe said, this is a theory forum. Fact number 1) NC was supposed to be with JA that morning, early, 2) she did not show up 3) JA reported her missing 4) JA has said BC killed NC (on what facts does she base this statement) 5) No one has been charged or even named a person of interest, it would appear the investigation has stalled. When an investigation stalls other avenues must be persued in order to move forward. If the evidence collected from the Cooper search warrants is not strong enough to convince the DA to go the grand jury, then more evidence must be collected from another source. Theories lead to warrants when investigated, CPD will eventually SW JA, mark my words.

[SleuthyGal]

it would appear the investigation has stalled. Not based on the most recent statement by CPD Chief, Pat Bazemore, but perhaps you know something the rest of us are not privy to.

If the evidence collected from the Cooper search warrants is not strong enough to convince the DA to go the grand jury, then more evidence must be collected from another source.
This DA doesn't just wait for evidence collection...he waits and waits and waits and then waits some more. He gets to wait as long as he wants since there is no statute of limitations for murder. If there's one thing this Wake County DA has proven, he is not a man in any kind of rush whatsoever. Not even a little. And, right now he is getting the benefit of all this (free) discovery from the civil case, which is a huge bonus he normally does not get. And the civil case is not over yet, which means there may be additional discovery he gets.

[rwesafe]

I am not assuming anything, we both know what assume does. As rwesafe said, this is a theory forum. Fact number 1) NC was supposed to be with JA that morning, early, 2) she did not show up 3) JA reported her missing 4) JA has said BC killed NC (on what facts does she base this statement) 5) No one has been charged or even named a person of interest, it would appear the investigation has stalled. When an investigation stalls other avenues must be persued in order to move forward. If the evidence collected from the Cooper search warrants is not strong enough to convince the DA to go the grand jury, then more evidence must be collected from another source. Theories lead to warrants when investigated, CPD will eventually SW JA, mark my words.

Exactly. And here are few more questions....Why exactly a mere 5 or 6 hours after she was missing did JA assume she had been killed at all? NC had a lot of friends...she could have been with any of them...why immediatly assume she was dead. She testified in court that she had never seen BC and NC argue nor had she witnessed BC be inappropriate with NC...seems strange to just start espousing that he killed her, especially before the body was even found... Additionally, if she called BC in the morning and did not believe that she was out running as BC told her, why, as a running partner did she not get in her car and go look for her on their normal running routes...why did she bypass that step and go directly to LE and to BC's house? Just a theory, but some intersting questions...

[ncsu95]

This DA doesn't just wait for evidence collection...he waits and waits and waits and then waits some more. He gets to wait as long as he wants since there is no statute of limitations for murder. If there's one thing this Wake County DA has proven, he is not a man in any kind of rush whatsoever. Not even a little. And, right now he is getting the benefit of all this (free) discovery from the civil case, which is a huge bonus he normally does not get. And the civil case is not over yet, which means there may be additional discovery he gets.


If nothing else, this case is fascinating in the manner in which it has played out. I have never seen a murder case where so much has been presented prior to an arrest because of a civil case. It really is fascinating.

[SleuthyGal]

Exactly. And here are few more questions....Why exactly a mere 5 or 6 hours after she was missing did JA assume she had been killed at all? NC had a lot of friends...she could have been with any of them...why immediatly assume she was dead. She testified in court that she had never seen BC and NC argue nor had she witnessed BC be inappropriate with NC...seems strange to just start espousing that he killed her, especially before the body was even found... Additionally, if she called BC in the morning and did not believe that she was out running as BC told her, why, as a running partner did she not get in her car and go look for her on their normal running routes...why did she bypass that step and go directly to LE and to BC's house? Just a theory, but some intersting questions...

I listened to the entire 911 call at the hearing. JA's call said she was worried "something may have happened to her friend." Then she detailed that Nancy has Crohn's, and on the call she said she checked with WakeMed to see if she was taken there in case (she fell or was sick). She did not say she thought Nancy was murdered--at no time prior to Nancy's body being found was there any evidence she said such a thing.

The 911 operator asked if Nancy had a family/spouse and JA said yes and that her husband said she left her house to go running between 6:30 and 7am and Nancy still hadn't come back yet and she was worried because she would normally call if she weren't going to show up for plans she made.

Then JA said there was a contentious marriage/rel'p and she didn't know how Brad would react to police getting involved or a call being made to 911 and she was concerned. The 911 operator assured JA that she wasn't doing anything wrong and that she was just being a good friend.

And there's a further detail that was testified to at the hearing: JA testified she got a phone call around 1:30pm and saw the Cooper phone # come up on her CallerID. She said she "ran to the phone and assumed it was Nancy calling and she would have to apologize for being worried, etc. and it was Brad on the phone, asking if Jessica had Carey Clarke's phone number. She said she didn't have it and offered to come over and watch the kids and Brad declined, saying he was putting the kids in the car to drive over to Carey's area and look for Nancy." Note: the timeline of Brad leaving the house shifted to 1:30pm, not the 1pm as was previously thought.

[rwesafe]

I listened the the entire 911 call at the hearing. JA's call said she was worried "something may have happened to her friend." Then she detailed that Nancy has Crohn's, and on the call she said she checked with WakeMed to see if she was taken there in case (she fell or was sick). She did not say she thought Nancy was murdered--at no time prior to Nancy's body being found was there any evidence she said such a thing.

The 911 operator asked if Nancy had a family/spouse and JA said yes and that he said she left at 7am and hadn't come back yet and she was worried because she would normally call if she weren't going to show up for plans she made.

Then JA said there was a contentious marriage/rel'p and she didn't know how Brad would react to police getting involved or a call being made to 911 and she was concerned. The 911 operator assured JA that she wasn't doing anything wrong and that she was just being a good friend.

Yeah, like I said, it just a theory...I personally don't believe any plans to paint existed....but that's just MO.

[shack]

I am not assuming anything, we both know what assume does. As rwesafe said, this is a theory forum. Fact number 1) NC was supposed to be with JA that morning, early, 2) she did not show up 3) JA reported her missing 4) JA has said BC killed NC (on what facts does she base this statement) 5) No one has been charged or even named a person of interest, it would appear the investigation has stalled. When an investigation stalls other avenues must be persued in order to move forward. If the evidence collected from the Cooper search warrants is not strong enough to convince the DA to go the grand jury, then more evidence must be collected from another source. Theories lead to warrants when investigated, CPD will eventually SW JA, mark my words.

According to JA's calendar NC wasn't supposed to paint. Why wouldn't this painting have been brought up at the party the night before when Brad made tennis arrangements? Who was to watch the kids? BC said NC was. How could she paint and watch kids at the same time? Its be reported that because BC didn't contact police right away he knew where NC was. From what I have read about NC she didn't always do what she said she was doing. Remember she was late to watch the kids the last time Brad tried to play tennis. Maybe he thought she was just pulling another of her stunts. I think the way JA jumped into this thing she may have known where NC was.

[rwesafe]

According to JA's calendar NC wasn't supposed to paint. Why wouldn't this painting have been brought up at the party the night before when Brad made tennis arrangements? Who was to watch the kids? BC said NC was. How could she paint and watch kids at the same time? Its be reported that because BC didn't contact police right away he knew where NC was. From what I have read about NC she didn't always do what she said she was doing. Remember she was late to watch the kids the last time Brad tried to play tennis. Maybe he thought she was just pulling another of her stunts. I think the way JA jumped into this thing she may have known where NC was.

It's also possible that JA told NC to meet her early that next morning...under the guise of running....she did talk to her at 10:30 the night before and it was said that NC looked tired/perhaps upset, when she left the party....maybe she new that she was going to be confronted. I don't know her but JA seems to have a very strong personality.

[SleuthyGal]

From what I have read about NC she didn't always do what she said she was doing. Remember she was late to watch the kids the last time Brad tried to play tennis. Maybe he thought she was just pulling another of her stunts. I think the way JA jumped into this thing she may have known where NC was.

Mike Hiller's affy says that Brad was 45 min late the last time they played tennis due to Nancy being late coming home. In this case Nancy was gone for six hours before Brad "started to get concerned" (according to his affy). Nancy had never disappeared for six hours before. And the one time she does...it's because she's dead.

[rwesafe]

Mike Hiller's affy says that Brad was 45 min late the last time they played tennis due to Nancy being late coming home. In this case Nancy was gone for six hours before Brad "started to get concerned" (according to his affy). Nancy had never disappeared for six hours before. And the one time she does...it's because she's dead.

Still does not add up, surely someone else at that party can confirm if NC did in fact call BC from the BBQ and hand the phone to MH so that they could confirm the tennis plans....if this is the case then the whole NC was supposed to be at JA's house to paint the next morning seems even less likely than before.

[Anderson]

According to JA's calendar NC wasn't supposed to paint. Why wouldn't this painting have been brought up at the party the night before when Brad made tennis arrangements? Who was to watch the kids? BC said NC was. How could she paint and watch kids at the same time? Its be reported that because BC didn't contact police right away he knew where NC was. From what I have read about NC she didn't always do what she said she was doing. Remember she was late to watch the kids the last time Brad tried to play tennis. Maybe he thought she was just pulling another of her stunts. I think the way JA jumped into this thing she may have known where NC was.

When you make plans the night before, do you mark it in your calendar?

[Anderson]

Mike Hiller's affy says that Brad was 45 min late the last time they played tennis due to Nancy being late coming home. In this case Nancy was gone for six hours before Brad "started to get concerned" (according to his affy). Nancy had never disappeared for six hours before. And the one time she does...it's because she's dead.

Hinky! And BC did not seem to be getting ready for tennis. He was busy cleaning.

[rwesafe]

Hinky! And BC did not seem to be getting ready for tennis. He was busy cleaning.

Besides throwing a pair of shorts, shoes and shirt, what else do you have to to to "get ready" to play tennis?

And NC did not seem to be getting ready to go paint...

[SleuthyGal]

Hinky! And BC did not seem to be getting ready for tennis. He was busy cleaning.

He sure was cleaning that morning. Lots of cleaning. Lots of laundry. I'd like to hire such a cleaning/laundering maven.

[SleuthyGal]

Besides throwing a pair of shorts, shoes and shirt, what else do you have to to to "get ready" to play tennis?

And NC did not seem to be getting ready to go paint...

It's really difficult to get ready to do anything when you've been strangled and your body was dumped. In fact it tends to make you late for every single thing you planned or wanted to do.

[rwesafe]

It's really difficult to get ready to do anything when you've been strangled and your body was dumped. In fact it tends to make you late for every single thing you planned or wanted to do.

Wow, that was so super uncalled for...

[Anderson]

It's really difficult to get ready to do anything when you've been strangled and your body was dumped. In fact it tends to make you late for every single thing you planned or wanted to do.

Yes, very difficult to get ready for anything under those circumstances. Every once in a while, I think that we need to be reminded of that.

[SleuthyGal]

Wow, that was so super uncalled for...

No more so than Nancy's murder, which was the most uncalled for of all. According to the autopsy, Nancy's death was in the range of the time she was last seen and went 'missing.' She was certainly dead no later than 8am (and the range will include before 7am).

[justthinking2008]

A lot of people seem to have focused on the keys, phone and necklace. It is possible that when NC left the house that morning, she had all of those items with her. If JA went over to the house, she could have easily brought back the keys, phone and necklace. This is just a thought, outside of the box with no facts to back it up, other than JA was at the house. Some have argued that BC could not get the sports bra off or on because it is difficult to do so, a man of his strength could have done so, a woman maybe not. Shirts, shorts, socks and shoes are easy to remove for anyone.

[rwesafe]

No more so than Nancy's murder, which was the most uncalled for of all. According to the autopsy, Nancy's death was in the range of the time she was last seen and went 'missing.' She was certainly dead no later than 8am (and the range will include before 7am).

It said it was consistent with the time she was reported to be missing....That opens up the time range significantly.

[rwesafe]

A lot of people seem to have focused on the keys, phone and necklace. It is possible that when NC left the house that morning, she had all of those items with her. If JA went over to the house, she could have easily brought back the keys, phone and necklace. This is just a thought, outside of the box with no facts to back it up, other than JA was at the house. Some have argued that BC could not get the sports bra off or on because it is difficult to do so, a man of his strength could have done so, a woman maybe not. Shirts, shorts, socks and shoes are easy to remove for anyone.

I think they verified from the 911 call, when BC stated that NC's phone was locked, that the phone was indeed at the house. But, the necklace could have been a plant, that is true.

[SleuthyGal]

A lot of people seem to have focused on the keys, phone and necklace. It is possible that when NC left the house that morning, she had all of those items with her. If JA went over to the house, she could have easily brought back the keys, phone and necklace. This is just a thought, outside of the box with no facts to back it up, other than JA was at the house. Some have argued that BC could not get the sports bra off or on because it is difficult to do so, a man of his strength could have done so, a woman maybe not. Shirts, shorts, socks and shoes are easy to remove for anyone.

No she didn't. Brad himself said Nancy did not have her keys or cell phone with her (nor her wallet or any ID or money). He told this to the detectives who responded to the missing person's report.

Also, JA was not inside the Cooper house on the morning or early afternoon of 7/12. She was waiting outside w/the police. Brad pulled up and he and the police went into the house. The police saw the keys on the front table and saw the cell phone inside the residence. Brad confirmed those items were Nancy's and she had not taken them with her when she left. Further, when HP talked to Brad around 10:30am, Brad said he didn't know Carey Clarke's number and HP said she didn't have it and suggested Brad look at Nancy's cell phone. Brad then said, "Oh that's a good idea! Oh, it's locked." (per affidavit and testimony in court on 10/16). So clearly the cell phone was in the house that morning.

Read the affidavit for probable cause--it's in the legal docs section. All those details and many more are right there in black & white.

[justthinking2008]

No she didn't. Brad himself said Nancy did not have her keys or cell phone with her (nor her wallet or any ID or money). He told this to the detectives who responded to the missing person's report.

Also, JA was not inside the Cooper house on the morning or early afternoon of 7/12. She was waiting outside w/the police. Brad pulled up and he and the police went into the house. The police saw the keys on the front table and saw the cell phone inside the residence. Brad confirmed those items were Nancy's and she had not taken them with her when she left. Further, when HP talked to Brad around 10:30am, Brad said he didn't know Carey Clarke's number and HP said she didn't have it and suggested Brad look at Nancy's cell phone. Brad then said, "Oh that's a good idea! Oh, it's locked." (per affidavit and testimony in court on 10/16). So clearly the cell phone was in the house that morning.

Read the affidavit for probable cause--it's in the legal docs section. All those details and many more are right there in black & white.

How long had they been there, did he say all morning, I do not recall reading that, I need to re-read

[SleuthyGal]

How long had they been there, did he say all morning, I do not recall reading that, I need to re-read

All day (from at least the time Nancy 'left to go jogging' between 6:30am and 7am until police saw the phone, keys & wallet around 3pm). And Nancy had her cell phone with her the night before (10:30pm phone call to her cell phone, which she answered).

[justthinking2008]

Sleuthygal,

You are very smart and comprehend well what you are reading in the legal docs. This case is going to have to be solved outside of what we are reading, if it were that simple BC would already be in jail. This puzzle is just not fitting as it is, if it did, the DA would have acted on it. I disagree with your comment regarding the DA waiting, DA's are quick to move with good strong evidence, as sensational as this case is, the DA wants someone charged ASAP. I have seen people arrested on less, the civil trail would have no bearing on the DA's decision to move or not move, if they were sure BC was the man, he would be behind bars while the civil trail was occurring, also he can question all civil witnesses.

[Maja]

Is it true BC told LE NC did not take her phone and/or keys when she left "for a run" that morning? If so, I believe in his deposition he stated he did not know what NC was wearing as he was upstairs with Katie and only "heard" NC say words to the effect (he couldn't remember the exact words) she was leaving for a run. All to say, how would he know whether or not she took those items with her when she left when he didn't even know what she had on?

[rwesafe]

Is it true BC told LE NC did not take her phone and/or keys when she left "for a run" that morning? If so, I believe in his deposition he stated he did not know what NC was wearing as he was upstairs with Katie and only "heard" NC say words to the effect (he couldn't remember the exact words) she was leaving for a run. All to say, how would he know whether or not she took those items with her when she left when he didn't even know what she had on?

Ummm, because they were all on the entry hall table where he could see them?

[Maja]

No she didn't. Brad himself said Nancy did not have her keys or cell phone with her (nor her wallet or any ID or money). He told this to the detectives who responded to the missing person's report.

Also, JA was not inside the Cooper house on the morning or early afternoon of 7/12. She was waiting outside w/the police. Brad pulled up and he and the police went into the house. The police saw the keys on the front table and saw the cell phone inside the residence. Brad confirmed those items were Nancy's and she had not taken them with her when she left. Further, when HP talked to Brad around 10:30am, Brad said he didn't know Carey Clarke's number and HP said she didn't have it and suggested Brad look at Nancy's cell phone. Brad then said, "Oh that's a good idea! Oh, it's locked." (per affidavit and testimony in court on 10/16). So clearly the cell phone was in the house that morning.

Read the affidavit for probable cause--it's in the legal docs section. All those details and many more are right there in black & white.


What items were in the front seat of the X5? I was of the impression it was her purse and cell phone...was I incorrect?

Additionally, it seems BC either noted on the morning of the 12th the phone is locked as he looked at it. How hard would it be for a guy with his technical savy to unlock that phone, use it to call himself, and lock it back up?

[justthinking2008]

Maja,

Exactly, what I was thinking, if he did not know what she was wearing would he have bothered to notice if the phone and keys were left behind. I also read the phone and keys were in the X5. You are right, if BC killed NC it would have been easy to call himself from her phone and lock it back up, another way he could have formed an alibi, if he needed to. As far as cleaning goes, who knows he may have been trying to help out so it would help him later on, or maybe he was trying to work with her. I think NC had the phone with her when she was killed, if not why was it locked? You lock an open face phone such as Blackberry when you put it in your pocket so as not to pocket page someone, it would have made sense for her to lock it before she went jogging, but to leave it laying around locked is strange. If the phone was in fact in the car, that is very telling.

[ncsu95]

Maja,

Exactly, what I was thinking, if he did not know what she was wearing would he have bothered to notice if the phone and keys were left behind. I also read the phone and keys were in the X5. You are right, if BC killed NC it would have been easy to call himself from her phone and lock it back up, another way he could have formed an alibi, if he needed to. As far as cleaning goes, who knows he may have been trying to help out so it would help him later on, or maybe he was trying to work with her. I think NC had the phone with her when she was killed, if not why was it locked? You lock an open face phone such as Blackberry when you put it in your pocket so as not to pocket page someone, it would have made sense for her to lock it before she went jogging, but to leave it laying around locked is strange. If the phone was in fact in the car, that is very telling.

It's not strange at all. She thought he was monitoring her phone calls, so she only used her cell. She locked it so that he could not access her text messages, etc.

And I don't think it would be easy to unlock the phone without the password.

[petra]

Maja,

Exactly, what I was thinking, if he did not know what she was wearing would he have bothered to notice if the phone and keys were left behind. I also read the phone and keys were in the X5. You are right, if BC killed NC it would have been easy to call himself from her phone and lock it back up, another way he could have formed an alibi, if he needed to. As far as cleaning goes, who knows he may have been trying to help out so it would help him later on, or maybe he was trying to work with her. I think NC had the phone with her when she was killed, if not why was it locked? You lock an open face phone such as Blackberry when you put it in your pocket so as not to pocket page someone, it would have made sense for her to lock it before she went jogging, but to leave it laying around locked is strange. If the phone was in fact in the car, that is very telling.

IIRC, NC locked her phone because of some possible personal info on there regarding the pending seperation, divorce, conversations and meetings with her attornies, personal email,etc. I believe this was in the affys from her friends/sister. That NC began locking her phone so BC could not read her personal info--since NC and others felt that BC may have been tapping into their home phone.

[piedmont]

If BC really did think NC was purposely staying out all Saturday morning to "punish" him, wouldn't he have realized she's unlikely to stay gone that long without having her cell phone with her? He would have known something's not right because she'd never be gone that long without her cell phone.

Her not having her cell phone does not fit her personality.

[momto3kids]

Below in blue I posted my theory on 7/21 with little knowledge of actual events since the affidavits had not been filed. I know some times are wrong such at painting time being 2pm, but I did this on what little information I had at that time.
After many of us were posting our theories, Nancyfriend posted some were very close, but never told any hint of who's.

After sitting in court all day Thursday I feel pretty sure the painting @ JA was an issue, a big issue between NC & BC. JA was questioned by Sandlin about Saturday's painting plans. If NC didn't want to, 'rock the boat' and paint the next day (Wedn) with JA, but it was OK to do it on the 12th? JA calendar didn't have it posted for Sat., who was expected to watch the kids, BC had tennis plans, etc.

I still believe the motive was money. There was fighting on Friday over money, but the painting might be what broke the camels back that night. Hearing it in court made it more realistic, making the painting date come to light more so.

Small amount of red in her stomach per autopsy..wine? We also found out since I posted this she had talked back to him in front of others.

This combination could be exactly what I have felt from the beginning, murder.

So my theory is this....IMO Brad is involved. He blew when she came in Friday nite. She finally stood up to him with her new found energy and encouragement from her family. He was not prepared for this at all.
He was already furious because of the call he received at home when Adam's called looking for NC, casually mentioned painting Sat. Brad didn't know about the painting and realized he had the girls Friday nite, Sat morning and now Sat afternoon. This would encroach on his time and plans! Nancy had a glass of wine at the party, said some things that angered him further, triggering a physical reaction.

My reason behind this is...what friend needs to call at 10:30pm to confirm painting for 2pm the next day? One that has concern because of a certain tone, or a statement said when she called earlier that evening. She tossed it around to tell NC or not, and decided to call Nancy so she could be prepared for an angry Brad. This call was not about a flight out of RDU at 6am which would warrant the call. Nancy is an early riser and this friend had to know she could confirm painting early Sat morning.
I feel Adam's is the link to all this, especially because of her call to NC and to the police.

[jmflu]

1) A theory is a theory. Can I go with the owl theory? I don't think that would be well-received. And JA as any sort of perp is not well-recieved because there are no search warrants, no affidavits, no anything that point to her whatsoever. CPD is not going to ignore a possible suspect just to frame Brad.
2) JA would not commit murder and then turn around and report it after taking all that time to go hide the body. This isn't a game of hide-and-seek. If someone put her body there, it was to give as much time as possible before she is found so that evidence is less likely to be discovered. She did it to put the focus on BC, you say? She could have let time elapse and THEN pointed the finger at BC.
3) Why do we put things on our calendars? So we won't forget about them and schedule something else. What need is there to put something on the calendar that is arranged less than 24 hours prior to the time you plan to do it?

Unless you are BC, you are not likely to forget it.

[rwesafe]

1) A theory is a theory. Can I go with the owl theory? I don't think that would be well-received. And JA as any sort of perp is not well-recieved because there are no search warrants, no affidavits, no anything that point to her whatsoever. CPD is not going to ignore a possible suspect just to frame Brad.
2) JA would not commit murder and then turn around and report it after taking all that time to go hide the body. This isn't a game of hide-and-seek. If someone put her body there, it was to give as much time as possible before she is found so that evidence is less likely to be discovered. She did it to put the focus on BC, you say? She could have let time elapse and THEN pointed the finger at BC.
3) Why do we put things on our calendars? So we won't forget about them and schedule something else. What need is there to put something on the calendar that is arranged less than 24 hours prior to the time you plan to do it?

Unless you are BC, you are not likely to forget it.

1) A theory is a theory. Can I go with the owl theory? I don't think that would be well-received. And JA as any sort of perp is not well-recieved because there are no search warrants, no affidavits, no anything that point to her whatsoever. CPD is not going to ignore a possible suspect just to frame Brad.

Not enough defensive wounds to go with the owl story. People do all kinds of strange things when they are in a panic. There are no other SW at this time....

2) JA would not commit murder and then turn around and report it after taking all that time to go hide the body. This isn't a game of hide-and-seek. If someone put her body there, it was to give as much time as possible before she is found so that evidence is less likely to be discovered. She did it to put the focus on BC, you say? She could have let time elapse and THEN pointed the finger at BC.

You are not JA so you don't really know what she may or may not have done.Or are you JA?

[chauncey7381]

One of my theories has been she was attacked by two, given the condition of her body when found. I think she was restrained by one while another strangled her.

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/3776692/

Assaults can happen in daylight. A witness reported seeing Nancy run, and a phone call was made from Nancys cell phone to Brads and it was locked.

It will be interesting to get more details about this assault posted above. The woman is lucky to be alive.

[justthinking2008]

rwesafe,

You have hit on one of my hot buttons, why is it that some can emphatically say that BC did this or BC did that, yet when someone merely suggests another theory they are attacked for having a different thought and told directly they are wrong to even assume anyone other than BC may have murdered NC. It is possible, I thought this forum was for all theories on what may have happened, not just ways BC could have done it. Remember none of us knows for sure who did it, bouncing ideas around is what gets your mind thinking about other ideas.

[Anderson]

1) 2) JA would not commit murder and then turn around and report it after taking all that time to go hide the body. This isn't a game of hide-and-seek. If someone put her body there, it was to give as much time as possible before she is found so that evidence is less likely to be discovered. She did it to put the focus on BC, you say? She could have let time elapse and THEN pointed the finger at BC.

You are not JA so you don't really know what she may or may not have done.Or are you JA?

It makes absolutely no sense to even suggest that JA did this. I am sure that SWs would have been filed, if there were any reason to think so. I think that the investigators should be given that much credit.

What did JA do? Well she drew attention to the fact that NC was missing much sooner that Brad did. And he is was the husband. For some reason that seems to upset some people.

Why do people focus on her? You got me. An overactive imagination? LE has clearly not focused on her as a person of interest. There is no probable cause affidavit. No SWs. Nothing. The Brett thing is just pure speculation and clearly JA and NC would have cleared up any misunderstanding of who was sending texts to NC.

What do I think of JA? I hope that I have a few friends around that would act in my best interest, as JA did for NC.

Am I or is JMFLU JA? Really silly question. JA has had to pass on all web chat posts to BCs lawyers, so she is not likely to be posting on websleuths on a regular basis. Perhaps Brad's supporters that wrote affidavits should have to do the same.

I don't know how anyone can go to such lengths to try to prove that Brad didn't do it (which I can respect and understand perfectly BTW, even if I do not agree with it), based on the need for strong evidence, and can then turn around and blindly accuse JA. I don't understand this at all. There is no evidence or motive. JA is not being investigated. JA only helped a close friend, who she clearly misses very much.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that JA did was cast a light on BC and that appears to have made a few people unhappy. There is clearly no evidence that she had anything to do with the murder.

[jmflu]

1) A theory is a theory. Can I go with the owl theory? I don't think that would be well-received. And JA as any sort of perp is not well-recieved because there are no search warrants, no affidavits, no anything that point to her whatsoever. CPD is not going to ignore a possible suspect just to frame Brad.

Not enough defensive wounds to go with the owl story. People do all kinds of strange things when they are in a panic. There are no other SW at this time....

2) JA would not commit murder and then turn around and report it after taking all that time to go hide the body. This isn't a game of hide-and-seek. If someone put her body there, it was to give as much time as possible before she is found so that evidence is less likely to be discovered. She did it to put the focus on BC, you say? She could have let time elapse and THEN pointed the finger at BC.

You are not JA so you don't really know what she may or may not have done.Or are you JA?

Is that all you got for me??

[jmflu]

rwesafe,

You have hit on one of my hot buttons, why is it that some can emphatically say that BC did this or BC did that, yet when someone merely suggests another theory they are attacked for having a different thought and told directly they are wrong to even assume anyone other than BC may have murdered NC. It is possible, I thought this forum was for all theories on what may have happened, not just ways BC could have done it. Remember none of us knows for sure who did it, bouncing ideas around is what gets your mind thinking about other ideas.

However, when we bounce around ideas, it is important to discount the ones that don't make sense, isn't it? When things don't add up, we can discount that theory.

If we are way off where LE seems to be, I don't think we're on the right track!

JMO!

[Anderson]

You rock, Anderson.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

So do you! I read the posts that you wrote earlier today.
:blowkiss:

[SleuthyGal]

Anderson, that is a fantastic, spot-on post. I think it's incumbent on all of us to work with reality and facts and not just make up facts that don't exist or make up facts that we wish existed so it would show someone else's involvement.

I'm surprised by just how wrong some people get the very basics of the case, when the case documents are RIGHT THERE in their own special folder in this forum. IMHO there's no excuse for continuing to spout incorrect information when it's been pointed out what the correct/factual information is and where one can find it.

[rwesafe]

rwesafe,

You have hit on one of my hot buttons, why is it that some can emphatically say that BC did this or BC did that, yet when someone merely suggests another theory they are attacked for having a different thought and told directly they are wrong to even assume anyone other than BC may have murdered NC. It is possible, I thought this forum was for all theories on what may have happened, not just ways BC could have done it. Remember none of us knows for sure who did it, bouncing ideas around is what gets your mind thinking about other ideas.

Ummm, I'm not sure what this is in reference too? I thought this forum was for all therories as well, but my theory that BC may not have done it has been very unpopular....my theory that JA may have had something to do with it has also been very unpopular. Basically, I'm very unpopular :crazy:

[Anderson]

Anderson, that is a fantastic, spot-on post. I think it's incumbent on all of us to work with reality and facts and not just make up facts that don't exist or make up facts that we wish existed so it would show someone else's involvement.

I'm surprised by just how wrong some people get the very basics of the case, when the case documents are RIGHT THERE in their own special folder in this forum. IMHO there's no excuse for continuing to spout incorrect information when it's been pointed out what the correct/factual information is and where one can find it.

Thanks SG. I really have to give you and others credit for teaching me how to think about the way investigations are carried out. You are right: the information is right here in the forum.:)

[rwesafe]

Anderson, that is a fantastic, spot-on post. I think it's incumbent on all of us to work with reality and facts and not just make up facts that don't exist or make up facts that we wish existed so it would show someone else's involvement.

I'm surprised by just how wrong some people get the very basics of the case, when the case documents are RIGHT THERE in their own special folder in this forum. IMHO there's no excuse for continuing to spout incorrect information when it's been pointed out what the correct/factual information is and where one can find it.

It is all speculation, conjecture and opinion, there are very few facts.....and in case you guys missed it..this is the THEORY thread.....facts do not play into theories....please refer to the earlier definition of a theory if you are still confused. No one is forcing your group to post in this thread, so why not let those of us think that BC might not have done it, speculate to our hearts content? Geez.

[SleuthyGal]

It is all speculation, conjecture and opinion, there are very few facts.....and in case you guys missed it..this is the THEORY thread.....facts do not play into theories....please refer to the earlier definition of a theory if you are still confused. No one is forcing your group to post in this thread, so why not let those of us think that BC might not have done it, speculate to our hearts content? Geez.

I feel very strongly about when people make up information that is just plain incorrect...for instance last night someone wanted to know "why JA was calling 911 and saying Nancy was killed/murdered a mere 5 to 6 hours after she left her house." They were using that very 'fact' (an incorrect fact) to surmise that means JA must be involved. And the reality is that the statement JA actually made was that her friend suffers from Crohn's disease and may be having an episode or have possibly fallen and gotten hurt. And then she further testified in court, under oath, that when her phone rang at 1:30pm she assumed it was Nancy getting back to her and was surprised it wasn't--that it was Brad and he was saying Nancy still was not home. These are the facts. The word "murder" or "killed" was never uttered.

The TRUTH is that JA never said that the poster said, and what she did say is right there on the 911 call! I don't care what the theories are or aren't, but if someone posts an out and out lie or is totally off-base about an important fact of the case and I read it, know what the truth is and where to reference the actual fact or statement, but say nothing, then I think that's a disservice as a member of the forum.

I understand the value of theories...it's good stuff. But can you explain to me why a theory based on a complete fabrication of a fact or evidence (and yes, a 911 call is evidence) is a useful thing? Would it be better to work with incorrect info? Is that what everyone prefers? If yes, then I won't bother letting people know what the real info is and where it can be found when I see a lie or misstatement. :confused:

[pamlet]

I would be interested to know how much the police looked into Nancy's relationships with her circle outside of Brad.

When this first happened I wondered about JA calling in the police so quickly - Then we started hearing/seeing all the negative testimony about BC... so I thought maybe her concern was founded ...

THEN it "got curiouser" that she said on the stand she never saw them arguing or fighting... That makes me think her concern was either
1. ALL from what she HEARD from NC
or
2. Contrived concern ...

So - I can see the JA theory a bit ... only because as with BC - things don't TOTALLY add up.

[justthinking2008]

It was a theory that the world was round, when everyone else believed it to be flat, no facts just theory until facts proved it. None of us have any idea what the CPD is looking at or who they are looking at until such time as they let us know. Also, they can be intensely investigating someone and no one knows including the person being investigated. BC may be guilty, he may be innocent same goes for JA, the only difference is JA is being given the benefit of the doubt, and still has her constitutional rights intact.

[justthinking2008]

The currently known facts do not support the theory that BC killed NC, if so he would have been arrested. A need exists to look beyond the known facts, JMHO. We currently have a "he said, she said" situation, and not one eye witness to anything other than that.

[jmflu]

The currently known facts do not support the theory that BC killed NC, if so he would have been arrested. A need exists to look beyond the known facts, JMHO. We currently have a "he said, she said" situation, and not one eye witness to anything other than that.

So you're saying you don't believe the DA is simply taking his time to make sure the "i"s are dotted and the "t"s crossed? You believe that an arrest made, say, a month from now, if it happens to be BC, is incorrect, because he should have been arrested earlier?

I believe it has been stated a number of times that we don't know everything LE knows. This is probably why BC did not take the stand... so those facts did not come out and taint the custody trial in the Rentz's favor.

[justthinking2008]

You are a bit stuck on the i's and t's, LE does not work that way, get the perp behind bars as quickly as possible. The DA will move ASAP when evidence becomes available. You are correct no one wants "egg on their face", but if the evidence was as compelling as some think, he would be behind bars now. If that evidence becomes available a month or a year from now, and he is "collared" so be it.

[jmflu]

You are a bit stuck on the i's and t's, LE does not work that way, get the perp behind bars as quickly as possible. The DA will move ASAP when evidence becomes available. You are correct no one wants "egg on their face", but if the evidence was as compelling as some think, he would be behind bars now. If that evidence becomes available a month or a year from now, and he is "collared" so be it.

I don't know the DA, but seems several posters know the way he works and seem to think he works that way.

They may still be discovering evidence. Some cases have taken a looong time to solve, and arrest someone... I don't know anyone who has said they don't think HE'S guilty!

[chicoliving]

Quite a few (30) posts were just deleted because many posts were quoted and there's no time to edit out each quote.

This is a theory thread. Either play nice or you won't be playing at all. Let's try this again.

[WindChime]

I want to set the record straight and there will be no further WARNINGS given. WS is a discussion forum and ALL OPINIONS AND THEORIES ARE WELCOME. It's A ok to agree to disagree but there will be NO personal attacks on ANY members. There will be NO bashing of another if one believes BC is innocent until proven guilty that is ones right and if others believe that they feel the DA has enough evidence to find a jury of BC peers that will convict him that's fine. BC has NOT been charged with ANY crime at this time. So EVERYONE play nice or timeouts will be given.
Thank You
WS Staff
Sincerely,
WindChime

[momto3kids]

I am still of the opinion that Friday had 3 elements to make BC upset, real upset with possible rage that escalated out of control...

1) fighting over money once again
2) NC correcting BC at the BBQ over not undersanding Katie
3) painting plans after a) he had made tennis plans b) he had to watch the girls again c) knowing it would "rock the boat"

[cygnusx1]

One of my theories has been she was attacked by two, given the condition of her body when found. I think she was restrained by one while another strangled her.

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/3776692/

Assaults can happen in daylight. A witness reported seeing Nancy run, and a phone call was made from Nancys cell phone to Brads and it was locked.

It will be interesting to get more details about this assault posted above. The woman is lucky to be alive.

This attack occurred ~2 miles (as the crow flies) from the dump site and very near where Jenna Nielsen's body was found.

[chauncey7381]

Yes, I looked on Google Earth, it is certainly in the same vicinity. Since Rosemary Zednick's affidavit, I wonder if Nancy did run on Lilly Atkins over to Holly Springs to Fielding. Will be watching for further developments/information regarding this attack.

I know CPD claims isolated and not random, I don't find that to be a trustworthy statement at this time.

The trails are no longer safe, I don't care what area you live in. I now jog at Golds Gym on Kildaire Farm, North Hills or in RTP. I've had no luck in finding someone who can jog at my pace. Speaking of RTP, I gotta get moving!

[jmflu]

O/T... tarheellvr, check your PMs.

[boxy]

Yes, I looked on Google Earth, it is certainly in the same vicinity. Since Rosemary Zednick's affidavit, I wonder if Nancy did run on Lilly Atkins over to Holly Springs to Fielding. Will be watching for further developments/information regarding this attack.

I know CPD claims isolated and not random, I don't find that to be a trustworthy statement at this time.

The trails are no longer safe, I don't care what area you live in. I now jog at Golds Gym on Kildaire Farm, North Hills or in RTP. I've had no luck in finding someone who can jog at my pace. Speaking of RTP, I gotta get moving!

What pace is that? :waitasec:

[piedmont]

With COD being strangulation, would that make it extremely likely it was a sexual assault or done by someone she knows? Is strangulation considered a very personal way to murder someone?

Is there ever premeditated strangulation? Or is that rare?

[garner_nc]

With COD being strangulation, would that make it extremely likely it was a sexual assault or done by someone she knows? Is strangulation considered a very personal way to murder someone?

Is there ever premeditated strangulation? Or is that rare?

The Green River Killer (Gary Ridgway) strangled his victims. Premeditated - YES...

[gritguy]

It doesn't suggest to me that BC did or did not commit the murder the fact that the DA has not charged anyone. The DA takes a very conservative stance on this sort of thing, history suggests.

The Yates Mill assault is troubling, just because it is yet another violent crime in the direct vicinity of where I live. In fact, I run around the pond there regularly, often with my ipod going. It is quiet, wooded, and until now considered peaceful.

There is motive on BC's part to have harm NC. He had the access to do it. Many of his actions do not seem to make sense except in the context of his having committed the crime. Based on these things, he seems to me to be the likely culprit. But, there is evidence, physical and testimonial, that runs against this. And it is possible and unsettling that someone unconnected with NC may have committed the crime.

If the poor woman at Yates Mill had come to final harm, there is a good chance that like many people her marriage might be in a pitiful state, and suspicion would run first toward her closest connections. However, at this point, it seems the attack was only related to where she happened to be: the wrong place at the wrong time. It is extremely worrying that two men would work together to commit an assault like this. They are far enough long in their thinking to confide to each other intent to harm another, and to work together toward that goal.

This relates to the NC case in this way. There are, it appears, strangers who are not BC around this area who are prepared to harm and maybe kill a female who is out exercising, and to do this during daylight.

The law enforcement agencies of Wake County need to work all the angles. They need to solve these cases. At least in my neck of the woods here, the worry meter on females being out on strolls by themselves has gone through the roof. That's wrong.

To me, the two theories most likely are 1) BC did it, or 2) stranger(s) did it. I don't see much or anything to suggest anyone else. And if it is 2), then it is just timing that exposed the problems in her life, and those shouldn't be a reason for the killer to go free, no matter who they are. BC's apparently odd behavior is known, the evidence that supports his version of events has been published, it is down to what LE knows or is finding out about evidence likely in the home or vehicles that will push the matter one way or the other, or perhaps evidence at the scene not yet disclosed.

[jmflu]

But, there is evidence, physical and testimonial, that runs against this.

What are you referring to?

[gritguy]

What are you referring to?

The cell phone call from NC's phone to BC, and the testimony of the woman who believes she saw NC that morning. The cell phone call could be bogus and the woman could be wrong, but nevertheless that is evidence that supports BC's version of the morning in question.

[chauncey7381]

What pace is that? :waitasec:


Not the fastest in the world at all, on good days my pace is between 11-13 mins per mile. I finished Race for the Cure 5k last June in 43 minutes. I try to squeeze in 2 miles every /or two days in my hectic schedule.

[chauncey7381]

[QUOTE=piedmont;2846570]

Is strangulation considered a very personal way to murder someone? [quote]

Both, personal and a complete stranger can overpower one. If one is caught by surprise, from behind, it can render you helpless with little struggling.

In Nancy's case I would like to know if LE thinks she was strangled manually or with a ligature (garrotte). There were no signs around her neck, except the mark on her neck. The hyoid bone was fractured, that happens frequently with manual strangulation. We just don't know.
Her body was free of any visible marks, no trauma noted, I know she was decomposed where some bruising could not have been noted.

Given the intense scrutiny on Brad Cooper, I wonder if the police are theorizing he assaulted her while she was asleep. How did he get her out, how come the kids didn't wake up and see anything, someone would have had to come over to make that phone call if she was deceased. Mike Hillers affi has info in it that one could reach the conclusion that CPD is investigating an accomplice theory.

The phone call from Nancys phone that morning to me is key, and of course TOD is in range she was reportedly missing, now we have a witness that has forward, and there was another lady that someone posted about who claimed they saw someone of Nancy's description running around 8. I wonder how many other unconfirmed sightings were reported that we do not know about/

[shack]

Yes, I looked on Google Earth, it is certainly in the same vicinity. Since Rosemary Zednick's affidavit, I wonder if Nancy did run on Lilly Atkins over to Holly Springs to Fielding. Will be watching for further developments/information regarding this attack.

I know CPD claims isolated and not random, I don't find that to be a trustworthy statement at this time.

The trails are no longer safe, I don't care what area you live in. I now jog at Golds Gym on Kildaire Farm, North Hills or in RTP. I've had no luck in finding someone who can jog at my pace. Speaking of RTP, I gotta get moving!

LE have 3 murders unsolved and now an attack all with in a 5 mile radius. Police have said they found 2 bloody footprints at the Michelle young murder scene. Then Jenna Nielsen , Nancy cooper and now an attack by 2 people. Seems to me that's an awful lot of murders and attacks not to be connected. Michelle Youngs was in her home but she had reported noises in the woods to police before her killing. It would be interesting to know if LE found any footprints at Nancy Coopers dump site and if there was any where the attack took place in the park. I know that it is unlikely to be any where Jenna Nielsen was murdered it was on concrete. Does any one think LE is comparing DNA found at all these sites?

[Albert]

. It would be interesting to know if LE found any footprints at Nancy Coopers dump site and if there was any where the attack took place in the park.

Has there been any reports that indicate where the attack took place? Or, is "where the attack took place in the park" speculation?

[SleuthyGal]

LE have 3 murders unsolved and now an attack all with in a 5 mile radius. Police have said they found 2 bloody footprints at the Michelle young murder scene. Then Jenna Nielsen , Nancy cooper and now an attack by 2 people.

Each of the murders are not 'unsolved,' they are as yet legally unproven--i.e. the DA has not taken any of the cases to a grand jury. Each of the 3 murdered women were not victims of random attacks and were also not victims of the same perp. In each of the 3 cases, each husband is the one believed to be the perp of the crime perpetuated on his spouse, by LE and the DA, CCBI and the FBI. There are no other suspects in those cases. The fact that they happened to occur in the general Triangle area is the only thing in common. As for the attack on the woman by those 2 people...that was a completely different (type of) crime, and it happened outside. Again, not related.

[SleuthyGal]

Has there been any reports that indicate where the attack took place? Or, is "where the attack took place in the park" speculation? No official reports have been released. LE/CCBI believe Nancy was killed in her home. Whether or not they can prove this through forensic evidence or other evidence, remains to be seen.

[SleuthyGal]

Not the fastest in the world at all, on good days my pace is between 11-13 mins per mile. I finished Race for the Cure 5k last June in 43 minutes. I try to squeeze in 2 miles every /or two days in my hectic schedule. I happen to know of a boxer someone has who could keep pace with you! Apparently good for a 4+ mi run. Might drool a little but otherwise a good sport. :smile:

[ncsu95]

Each of the murders are not 'unsolved,' they are as yet legally unproven--i.e. the DA has not taken any of the cases to a grand jury. Each of the 3 murdered women were not victims of random attacks and were also not victims of the same perp. In each of the 3 cases, each husband is the one believed to be the perp of the crime perpetuated on his spouse, by LE and the DA, CCBI and the FBI. There are no other suspects in those cases. The fact that they happened to occur in the general Triangle area is the only thing in common. As for the attack on the woman by those 2 people...that was a completely different (type of) crime, and it happened outside. Again, not related.


Jenna Nielsen's husband has been cleared. Hers was a random attack.

[SleuthyGal]

Thanks. Redacting Nielsen from the discussion. Young's and Cooper's attacks were not random. In each case the husband is believed to be the perp. In the Young case I am 100% sure JLY is the perp. In the Cooper case I'm not at 100%, but am probably around 95 - 97%, waiting to see what forensics results they've got, along with other evidence and if they can tie it all together.

[justthinking2008]

Each of the murders are not 'unsolved,' they are as yet legally unproven--i.e. the DA has not taken any of the cases to a grand jury. Each of the 3 murdered women were not victims of random attacks and were also not victims of the same perp. In each of the 3 cases, each husband is the one believed to be the perp of the crime perpetuated on his spouse, by LE and the DA, CCBI and the FBI. There are no other suspects in those cases. The fact that they happened to occur in the general Triangle area is the only thing in common. As for the attack on the woman by those 2 people...that was a completely different (type of) crime, and it happened outside. Again, not related.

SG,

That is an awfully bold statement to make regarding all three crimes and a little uninformed, Jenna Neilson's husband has been cleared. If we are looking at facts, it seems we have a witness saying she saw NC outside of her home on the morning of the murder, granted she could be wrong, but does not seem likely.

[SleuthyGal]

SG,

That is an awfully bold statement to make regarding all three crimes and a little uninformed, Jenna Neilson's husband has been cleared. If we are looking at facts, it seems we have a witness saying she saw NC outside of her home on the morning of the murder, granted she could be wrong, but does not seem likely.

You're right, it is a bold statement to make. I redacted the Nielson case (I don't follow that one and just lumped it in and I was incorrect). But I'm confident that in the Young and Cooper cases the DA, LE, CCBI, and the FBI believe each husband is the perp. Again, whether or not that can be proven in a court of law remains to be seen. The burden of proof is on them to prove it; we shall see if they attempt to.

[piedmont]

Has there been any reports that indicate where the attack took place? Or, is "where the attack took place in the park" speculation?

Albert, we don't know where the attack actually took place.

[allboys]

Forgive me if this has already been said, but....even if Nancy was seen jogging, why does that mean that Brad is innocent? He could have killed her when she got home from her run. I know rage often happens in the evening, but not always. Also, I know that if I am stressing over something (like a fight with spouse), I may go for a run for that very reason. This could explain why Nancy was in fact running, even though she didn't have prior plans to do so. That said, I personally think it was a case of mistaken identity, and NC never actually left the house. If she did, I think there would be more people who would have spotted her that morning.

[ncsu95]

Forgive me if this has already been said, but....even if Nancy was seen jogging, why does that mean that Brad is innocent? He could have killed her when she got home from her run. I know rage often happens in the evening, but not always. Also, I know that if I am stressing over something (like a fight with spouse), I may go for a run for that very reason. This could explain why Nancy was in fact running, even though she didn't have prior plans to do so. That said, I personally think it was a case of mistaken identity, and NC never actually left the house. If she did, I think there would be more people who would have spotted her that morning.

Because the kids would have been awake at that time, which makes it unlikely he could have done this without detection.

[petra]

Because the kids would have been awake at that time, which makes it unlikely he could have done this without detection.

But just maybe the kids or one child did see/ hear something.

Maybe that is the reason for statement "no credible witness"", maybe that is why BC does not have the kids now and the judge outlined certain conditions such as no talking about mom's murder, counseling,no dogs...etc.

We just don't know this piece of evidence.

Probably, no Possible, yes

[boxy]

Not the fastest in the world at all, on good days my pace is between 11-13 mins per mile. I finished Race for the Cure 5k last June in 43 minutes. I try to squeeze in 2 miles every /or two days in my hectic schedule.

It's great that you're out there pounding the trails and knocked off a 5k. Hope you keep it up.

[boxy]

Thanks. Redacting Nielsen from the discussion. Young's and Cooper's attacks were not random. In each case the husband is believed to be the perp. In the Young case I am 100% sure JLY is the perp. In the Cooper case I'm not at 100%, but am probably around 95 - 97%, waiting to see what forensics results they've got, along with other evidence and if they can tie it all together.

How do you know what LE believe in the Cooper case?

[boxy]

You're right, it is a bold statement to make. I redacted the Nielson case (I don't follow that one and just lumped it in and I was incorrect). But I'm confident that in the Young and Cooper cases the DA, LE, CCBI, and the FBI believe each husband is the perp. Again, whether or not that can be proven in a court of law remains to be seen. The burden of proof is on them to prove it; we shall see if they attempt to.

Again, you're making statements about what LE believe in the Cooper case that is not supported, to my knowledge, by the public record. Please explain the basis for your statement. Or you might want to reword it to say that YOU believe that LE believes BC killed NC so readers will know your statement is not based on publicly known facts.

[justthinking2008]

Question for those of you more biologically adept than I am. The autopsy report confirms the presence of a reddish liquid in the stomach, presumably red wine, since it was not noted as otherwise. The question is how long does wine or any other alcohol remain in the stomach after consumption. In my brief search of INTERNET all I can find is how long alcohol remains in system, not stomach. The reason for my interest is this, if the alcohol should have been out of stomach by say 2 to 4 hours later, then NC was indeed killed at home. It would seem to me (mind you I am very uneducated in digestive matters for the most part) the alcohol should have left her stomach rather quickly, her system well not so fast. My way of confuddled thinking tells me that if the body ceased to function shortly after she had consumed the wine, the wine would have puddled in her stomach, thus rendering BC guilty of murder. Of course I could be way off, that is why I am posing the question.

[momto3kids]

Question for those of you more biologically adept than I am. The autopsy report confirms the presence of a reddish liquid in the stomach, presumably red wine, since it was not noted as otherwise. The question is how long does wine or any other alcohol remain in the stomach after consumption. In my brief search of INTERNET all I can find is how long alcohol remains in system, not stomach. The reason for my interest is this, if the alcohol should have been out of stomach by say 2 to 4 hours later, then NC was indeed killed at home. It would seem to me (mind you I am very uneducated in digestive matters for the most part) the alcohol should have left her stomach rather quickly, her system well not so fast. My way of confuddled thinking tells me that if the body ceased to function shortly after she had consumed the wine, the wine would have puddled in her stomach, thus rendering BC guilty of murder. Of course I could be way off, that is why I am posing the question.
This was my post on 9/30...hope it helps.

I still feel NC was murdered shortly after coming home. We don't know exactly when she got home, just after midnight per BC affidavit.

The strongest most compelling to me is the red fluid, but also the other things I have noted.

The red fluid is most likely wine. If it were blood it would have been noted by the ME. Below is a link referring UP to 2 hours to complete absorption. Possible wine still in the stomach puts this within 2 hours if not sooner after her last cup of wine.

Onion takes longer to exit the stomach. Link below. Meat was obviously not noted per autopsy, so this would answer why a possible piece of onion remained. Stomach contents usual are emptied within 6 hrs. She eats ribs at sometime between 6-8pm, stomach empty between 12- 2am. This 6 hour rule has been a rule of thumb for the last 30 yrs I worked in surgery. Anyone who has ever had a procedure is told nothing to eat or drink after midnight.

Brownish green vegetable material IMO is vomit. Again, the link states vegetable take longer to exit. DD is big on vegetable dishes as she has posted. I feel it would have been stated vegetation. Unless vomit is immediate once it has been in the stomach with other contents and stomach acid it will be brownish green. At least that is all the vomit I have unfortuntely witnessed.

Possible wine still in stomach, within 2 hours of last glass or sooner. Possible vomit of vegetables, within 6 hours of last bite. IMO she was murdered between 1-3am.

When large amounts of alcohol are consumed over a short time interval, or when a large quantity of food is eaten with the alcohol, the absorption phase may not be complete for up to two (2) hours after last consumption.
http://www.forcon.ca/learning/alcohol.html

Some foods such as celery, onion, potato, corn and tomato skins typically take longer than meat or other foods to exit the stomach. This can be found on page 15 of 118. Warning! If you scroll futher there are gruesome photo's you might not want to see if you have a weak stomach.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2671189/time-of-death-atlas

Normally patients are fasted for 2 hours after clear fluids and 6 hours following a meal before they are anesthetised. This is to reduce the chance of any residual food remaining within the stomach.
http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u04/u04_003.htm

[garner_nc]

We are assuming it is wine. Could be a redbull, gatorade or kool-aid consumed prior to the run. I'm not sure if ME indicated what the red liquid actually was.

[RaleighNC]

We are assuming it is wine. Could be a redbull, gatorade or kool-aid consumed prior to the run. I'm not sure if ME indicated what the red liquid actually was.

'cept Redbull ins't red.....

[Skittles]

We are assuming it is wine. Could be a redbull, gatorade or kool-aid consumed prior to the run. I'm not sure if ME indicated what the red liquid actually was.

According to Brad's deposition, Nancy has to run on an empty stomach (no solid food). Neither of them drinks Gatorade. Go to my "Deposition Index" thread, search for "drinks", and hear the testimony for yourself.

ETA: Clarification of "empty stomach."

[reddress58]

We are assuming it is wine. Could be a redbull, gatorade or kool-aid consumed prior to the run. I'm not sure if ME indicated what the red liquid actually was.
Kool-aid!? Do people still drink that stuff and/or feed it to their children!!? I doubt any runner would take a swig of that conconction before a run. Ugh! :-)

The one item that changed my opinion of TOD making me feel Nancy was actually up for the day was the presence of caffiene in her system. That would seem likely to point to a Redbull or such, or a cup of coffee; either part of a morning routine or in preparation for a run.

[garner_nc]

'cept Redbull ins't red.....

Redbull is not red - correct - I was using it as general term for an energy drink that could be red. Like Kleenex is the common term used for facial tissue.

[reddress58]

According to Brad's deposition, Nancy has to run on an empty stomach. Neither of them drinks Gatorade. Go to my "Deposition Index" thread, search for "drinks", and hear the testimony for yourself.
I believe he meant "empty stomach" as in no solid foods. Not drinking something beforehand is actually dangerous for running...especially after a night long fast.

[garner_nc]

Kool-aid!? Do people still drink that stuff and/or feed it to their children!!? I doubt any runner would take a swig of that conconction before a run. Ugh! :-)

The one item that changed my opinion of TOD making me feel Nancy was actually up for the day was the presence of caffiene in her system. That would seem likely to point to a Redbull or such, or a cup of coffee; either part of a morning routine or in preparation for a run.


I have kids and they drink Kool-aid everyday. It is cheap and caffeine free. When there is nothing else to drink in the house I will pour a glass.

[Skittles]

I beleive he meant "empty stomach" as no solid foods. Not drinking someone beforehand is actually dangerous for running...especially after a night long fast.

Reddress: I was just going in to edit my post to clarify that! Sorry for the confusion.

[reddress58]

I have kids and they drink Kool-aid everyday. It is cheap and caffeine free. When there is nothing else to drink in the house I will pour a glass.
I can't stomach the stuff or get past the lack of nutritional value or sugar content. Noting the kind of juice Brad purchased for Bella at HT; its healthy contents and its price, I doubt the Coopers had Kool-aid sitting in the fridge.

FYI, I grew up on the stuff. We weren't allowed to drink sodas, but Kool-aid was a staple in our household. Brings back fond memories.

[justthinking2008]

I can't stomach the stuff or get past the lack of nutritional value or sugar content. Noting the kind of juice Brad purchased for Bella at HT; it's healthy contents and its price, I doubt the Coopers had Kool-aid sitting in the fridge.

FYI, I grew up on the stuff. We weren't allowed to drink sodas, but Kool-aid was a staple in our household. Brings back fond memories.

Does anyone know what color the juice BC purchased was. I do not have small kids, so I do not purchase kiddie juices anymore.

[momto3kids]

According to Brad's deposition, Nancy has to run on an empty stomach (no solid food). Neither of them drinks Gatorade. Go to my "Deposition Index" thread, search for "drinks", and hear the testimony for yourself.

ETA: Clarification of "empty stomach."
IIRC, he stated she didn't even drink water and then said I don't know how she did it.

[reddress58]

Does anyone know what color the juice BC purchased was. I do not have small kids, so I do not purchase kiddie juices anymore.
I believe it was green.

[reddress58]

IIRC, he stated she didn't even drink water and then said I don't know how she did it.
I missed that Mom. I don't know how she did it either! But I'm surprised that by the time BC made this deposition, he knew caffiene was found in her stomach. He could very well have said she had a cup of coffee before her run.

[momto3kids]

I can't stomach the stuff or get past the lack of nutritional value or sugar content. Noting the kind of juice Brad purchased for Bella at HT; it's healthy contents and its price, I doubt the Coopers had Kool-aid sitting in the fridge.

FYI, I grew up on the stuff. We weren't allowed to drink sodas, but Kool-aid was a staple in our household. Brings back fond memories.
And it was so exciting when we got to chose which flavor was to be made next. The fight was who's turn was next...Yes, fond memories.

[momto3kids]

I believe it was green.
I assume it was because of its name...Green Machine
http://www.nakedjuice.com/#OurJuices/Background/MainMenu/Families/Superfood/bottle2

[reddress58]

I assume it was because of its name...Green Machine
http://www.nakedjuice.com/#OurJuices/Background/MainMenu/Families/Superfood/bottle2
Some on here have tried it. (I believe SG) Maybe she can confirm the color for us.

[justthinking2008]

Yeah, with something as healthy as Naked Juice seems to be I seriously doubt they were consuming kool aid or gatorade. But is Apple Kiwi the only flavor, maybe there is a cherry apple or something like that.

[momto3kids]

The picture appears to look pea green....

From their website.

We know it looks intimidating, but don't judge a juice by its color. It actually tastes good. No really, we're serious. This apple and kiwi "Superfood" is your ally. It's got an arsenal of 10 green turbo-nutrients like broccoli & spinach and a whole stockpile of vitamins to make you feel new again. So, go for it. And let the pink and orange smoothie drinkers of the world cower at your juice prowess.

[justthinking2008]

With the caffiene she could have presumably had some coffee at 4am we she and BC supposedly got up, I know I would have wanted coffee if I was awaken by a sick child at 4am. She then maybe had a small amount of juice for enegry, they could have mixed in her stomach forming a reddish liquid, who knows, but this being the case she had to be alive around 6:45.

[reddress58]

Yeah, with something as healthy as Naked Juice seems to be I seriously doubt they were consuming kool aid or gatorade. But is Apple Kiwi the only flavor, maybe there is a cherry apple or something like that.
Actually, for a family of athletes, Gatoraide would not be an unusal choice in the pantry. It replaces lost electrolites but really isn't necessary unless one is going to do a sustained amount of exercise such as a long run or bike ride. I would not be surprised, given both the Coopers training regimens, if Gatoraide were in the fridge...if not for before but after exercising.

[momto3kids]

Yeah, with something as healthy as Naked Juice seems to be I seriously doubt they were consuming kool aid or gatorade. But is Apple Kiwi the only flavor, maybe there is a cherry apple or something like that.
Does it appear to be what a child is up wanting 1st thing in the morning, ??:waitasec:

IIRC, when we discussed this before, many thought it was an energy drink for BC.

[reddress58]

Does it appear to be what a child is up wanting 1st thing in the morning, ??:waitasec:

IIRC, when we discussed this before, many thought it was an energy drink for BC.
BC said it was for Bella and that is believable knowing now that it tastes ok. I can easily see the Coopers choosing this for their children's juice staple knowing how both were health concious.

[momto3kids]

With the caffiene she could have presumably had some coffee at 4am we she and BC supposedly got up, I know I would have wanted coffee if I was awaken by a sick child at 4am. She then maybe had a small amount of juice for enegry, they could have mixed in her stomach forming a reddish liquid, who knows, but this being the case she had to be alive around 6:45.
This is where the controversy begins with timing.

Det Daniels states BC told he and NC got up at 4am with Katie, but not stating Katie was sick. He then states after BC returned from the HT trips he took Katie to his office within the home. What occured for 2 hours?

BC affidavit states he got ready to get the girls up when he returned from getting milk and no mention he had gotten up at 4am.

As I said prior if he did attend to a sick child @ 4am this would have been the best opportunity to state it in his affidavit to show the court he is a caring and concerned father.

[momto3kids]

BC said it was for Bella and that is believable knowing now that it tastes ok. I can easily see the Coopers choosing this for their children's juice staple knowing how both were health concious.
I guess since this was discussed awhile back, and I knew nothing about this drink, I came away feeling most thought it was most likely a drink for BC. I do agree it could be for Bella.

[reddress58]

I guess since this was discussed awhile back, and I knew nothing about this drink, I came away feeling most thought it was most likely a drink for BC. I do agree it could be for Bella.
Did we ever determine what size drink he bought? I think many of us thought it was a single serving leading us to believe it was for himself. But, IIRC, someone later pointed out it was a larger size with more than one serving, which would be more likely a family purchase.

[water_dancing]

IIRC, he stated she didn't even drink water and then said I don't know how she did it.

This is interesting. How would he have known that? He made 2 trips to the grocery store before her run. She could have had something while he was gone. He also stated that he did not see he right before she left and she could have had a drink as she was going out the door.

Of course this is on the premise that she was still alive at this point and did go on the run.

It will be interesting to see what the chemical analysis shows.

[reddress58]

This is where the controversy begins with timing.

Det Daniels states BC told he and NC got up at 4am with Katie, but not stating Katie was sick. He then states after BC returned from the HT trips he took Katie to his office within the home. What occured for 2 hours?

BC affidavit states he got ready to get the girls up when he returned from getting milk and no mention he had gotten up at 4am.

As I said prior if he did attend to a sick child @ 4am this would have been the best opportunity to state it in his affidavit to show the court he is a caring and concerned father.
Let's assume Katie waking up at 4am is true. I believe Brad stated he was sleeping with the girls. He would maybe take her out of the bedroom so that she didn't wake up Bella. Nancy would then hear the commotion and awaken to see what was the matter. Maybe Katie was up a short while then fell back to sleep. By that time, Nancy is already up and decides she will get in a run since she has some time. As we know with her cancelled plans with Carey the day before, a 5:45 run is not out of the norm.

So now it is appraoching that time. She downs a cup of coffee to give her a pick-me-up since she's had little sleep since coming home at 12:30pm, and starts to dress for her run. The question in my mind is what happened after this point? Did they argue then...a continuance of the night before?

[EnvoyDriver61]

Would a glass or two of tea at the party before account for the caffeine content in her body?

[reddress58]

This is interesting. How would he have known that? He made 2 trips to the grocery store before her run. She could have had something while he was gone. He also stated that he did not see he right before she left and she could have had a drink as she was going out the door.

Of course this is on the premise that she was still alive at this point and did go on the run.

It will be interesting to see what the chemical analysis shows.
I think Brad meant "as a rule" she didn't drink water. I don't think he meant she didn't drink that day. He may have been refering to her typical habit.

[EnvoyDriver61]

Let's assume Katie waking up at 4am is true. I believe Brad stated he was sleeping with the girls. He would maybe take her out of the bedroom so that she didn't wake up Bella. Nancy would then hear the commotion and awaken to see what was the matter. Maybe Katie was up a short while then fell back to sleep. By that time, Nancy is alread up and decides she will get in a run since she has some time. As we know with her cancelled plans with Carey the day before, a 5:45 run is not out of the norm.

So now it is appraoching that time. She downs a cup of coffee to give her a pick-me-up since she's had little sleep since coming home at 12:30pm and starts to dress for her run. The question in my mind is what happened after this point? Did they argue then...a continuance of the night before?

Again, mom's theory regarding a timeline, I think earlier in this thread, shows a more likely scenario (i.e., IIRC, killing shortly after she came home from the party).

[reddress58]

Again, mom's theory regarding a timeline, I think earlier in this thread, shows a more likely scenario (i.e., IIRC, killing shortly after she came home from the party).
I guess I'm just trying to get in the caffeine. If it were shortly after the party, I think there would have been more stomach contents and/or alcohol.

[reddress58]

Would a glass or two of tea at the party before account for the caffeine content in her body?
Good thought.

[reddress58]

Again, mom's theory regarding a timeline, I think earlier in this thread, shows a more likely scenario (i.e., IIRC, killing shortly after she came home from the party).
Just curious, why do you feel it is more likely?

[EnvoyDriver61]

Because of what she posted.

I'm assuming the red liquid is wine and she outlines alcohol absorption and what not.

To me, the caffeine in the system has to be explained prior to whatever was found in her stomach: red liquid.

If it is wine, it's most likely consummed from the party before, IMO, especially since a bit of an onion is with it.

Here's how I see it. She didn't feel well the day of the party. She ate a bit and had some tea or a soft drink. IIRC, there was some sort of tiff at the party between her and BC. He goes home. She then receives a phone call later from a friend, suggested by posters here to warn her about BC reaction to learning she is going to be absent the next morning during his planned tennis match. I can see her drinking a bit of wine to calm herself before going home to confront BC.

[Star12]

Some on here have tried it. (I believe SG) Maybe she can confirm the color for us.

I tried it, and it's really quite good. No added sugar, but still very sweet. Quite tasty. My daughter buys it as a coffeehouse treat for my 2 yo granddaughter, who loves it. (We sometimes meet at SBx, Bruegals, etc. to chat, rest while shopping, etc., and indulge in expensive caffeine, which is not appropriate for my little sweetie. And since Nana is paying (:::sigh:::), the little one gets an expensive treat, too. At least it's nutricious.

[reddress58]

I tried it, and it's really quite good. No added sugar, but still very sweet. Quite tasty. My daughter buys it as a coffeehouse treat for my 2 yo granddaughter, who loves it. (We sometimes meet at SBx, Bruegals, etc. to chat, rest while shopping, etc., and indulge in expensive caffeine, which is not appropriate for my little sweetie. And since Nana is paying (:::sigh:::), the little one gets an expensive treat, too. At least it's nutricious.
...and as we know, cost wasn't necessarily a deciding factor in the Cooper household. Thanks for this knowledge, Star.

[reddress58]

Because of what she posted.

I'm assuming the red liquid is wine and she outlines alcohol absorption and what not.

To me, the caffeine in the system has to be explained prior to whatever was found in her stomach: red liquid.

If it is wine, it's most likely consummed from the party before, IMO, especially since a bit of an onion is with it.

Here's how I see it. She didn't feel well the day of the party. She ate a bit and had some tea or a soft drink. IIRC, there was some sort of tiff at the party between her and BC. He goes home. She then receives a phone call later from a friend, suggested by posters here to warn her about BC reaction to learning she is going to be absent the next morning during his planned tennis match. I can see her drinking a bit of wine to calm herself before going home to confront BC.
I'm confused about her receiving a warning phone call. I thought she received a call from JA confirming painting plans. I wasn't aware someone warned her of anything. Did I miss something?

[reddress58]

Because of what she posted.

I'm assuming the red liquid is wine and she outlines alcohol absorption and what not.

To me, the caffeine in the system has to be explained prior to whatever was found in her stomach: red liquid.

If it is wine, it's most likely consummed from the party before, IMO, especially since a bit of an onion is with it.

Here's how I see it. She didn't feel well the day of the party. She ate a bit and had some tea or a soft drink. IIRC, there was some sort of tiff at the party between her and BC. He goes home. She then receives a phone call later from a friend, suggested by posters here to warn her about BC reaction to learning she is going to be absent the next morning during his planned tennis match. I can see her drinking a bit of wine to calm herself before going home to confront BC.
This is plausible, too. I think we need to consider what the least amount of time is necessary to kill, dress or undress (including taking off jewelry), maybe find a dumpsite on the computer (if that happened), maybe clear the garage, put car in it (or was it in the day before?), carry the body to the car, drive to dumpsite, dispose of and maybe pose the body and be at HT checkout by 6:20. (This is not taking into consideration a 4:20 trip to HT, only assuming the two known trips)

That, IMO, at least narrows it down to between 12:30am and 4:45am +/-. I guess we'd have to re-enact the above scenario and time it to make sure. I find it hard to imagine he could accomplish all of that in less time.

ETA: For the sake of politcal correctness, this theory is based on "IF" BC killed NC.

[water_dancing]

Again, mom's theory regarding a timeline, I think earlier in this thread, shows a more likely scenario (i.e., IIRC, killing shortly after she came home from the party).

My concern about this timeline theory is the caffeine found in her system, particularly at the level it was. It seems unlikely to me that someone would drink something with caffeine in it at that point in the evening(6-12:30) if they were planning on going to bed. It would seem more likely that with plans to run and paint in the morning and anticipating getting only 5-6 hours of sleep, she would want to assure she wouldn't have trouble fall asleep d/t the caffeine.

Does anyone have knowledge of her drinking a caffeinated beverage at the party or that she was able to sleep regardless of caffeine intake?

WD

[reddress58]

My concern about this timeline theory is the caffeine found in her system, particularly at the level it was. It seems unlikely to me that someone would drink something with caffeine in it at that point in the evening(6-12:30) if they were planning on going to bed. It would seem more likely that with plans to run and paint in the morning and anticipating getting only 5-6 hours of sleep, she would want to assure she wouldn't have trouble fall asleep d/t the caffeine.

Does anyone have knowledge of her drinking a caffeinated beverage at the party or that she was able to sleep regardless of caffeine intake?

WD
The caffeine is the stickler for me, too.

[momto3kids]

The caffeine is the stickler for me, too.
Caffeine has a life of approx. 12 hours. It has a half life after 3 to 12 hours. If you drink a cup of coffee in the morning and one in the evening you will have caffeine in your system every hour that day.

All of this is dependent on medications you take as well as any disease's you might have that can effect this.

If she drank tea, let's say, at the BBQ @ 6pm she would most likely have caffeine in her sytem @ 6am. So, in other words, the caffeine found could be from the evening before.

[justthinking2008]

Not to disrespect the deceased, but it has been noted in the affidavits that she really liked to drink wine, not saying she had a problem, as some have hinted at on the boards. I would be interested in knowing what the toxicology reports have to say regarding her blood alcohol level. Also JA says in her affidavit that she called NC around 10:30 that night, I guess cell phone records will show for sure who was the last person she spoke with that evening. I do not see her drinking coffee or tea that evening, but it is possible if she overindulged in wine, she would have needed some coffee or tea the next morning to help with a hangover. Unless by some odd chance she came home blistered and started drinking coffee to sober up and then they fought and he killed her. I hate to bring the children into this, but unfortunately Katie and Bella may be the only ones who can tell us if NC was alive that morning. I can only imagine that BC had a bad reaction to NC when she told him to go back to the store after he had just returned, so the kids might remember this. It would be interesting if one of the children said she was sleeping rather than up and about, that would be extremely telling, and a direct inconsistency with BC's story.

[ncsu95]

My concern about this timeline theory is the caffeine found in her system, particularly at the level it was. It seems unlikely to me that someone would drink something with caffeine in it at that point in the evening(6-12:30) if they were planning on going to bed. It would seem more likely that with plans to run and paint in the morning and anticipating getting only 5-6 hours of sleep, she would want to assure she wouldn't have trouble fall asleep d/t the caffeine.

Does anyone have knowledge of her drinking a caffeinated beverage at the party or that she was able to sleep regardless of caffeine intake?

WD

I drink caffeine before bed and have no problem going to sleep.

[RaleighNC]

And - for someone with a Java Jive habit - it's quite possible that it didn't impact her ability to sleep all that much - I know that I can have tea before bedtime and still fall right to sleep - same with soda. I don't drink coffee.

And - if one stops drinking alcohol at a party, then perhaps you grab a diet coke, etc.

[water_dancing]

And - for someone with a Java Jive habit - it's quite possible that it didn't impact her ability to sleep all that much - I know that I can have tea before bedtime and still fall right to sleep - same with soda. I don't drink coffee.

And - if one stops drinking alcohol at a party, then perhaps you grab a diet coke, etc.

I totally know it's possible. I use to be able to do the same thing and then I turned 30 and if I have caffeine after noon, I am up all night. Everyone's reaction to caffeine, like everything is individual. That is why I asked if anyone had info about NC in particular. It is just one of facts that still has me on the fence.

WD

[momto3kids]

And - for someone with a Java Jive habit - it's quite possible that it didn't impact her ability to sleep all that much - I know that I can have tea before bedtime and still fall right to sleep - same with soda. I don't drink coffee.

And - if one stops drinking alcohol at a party, then perhaps you grab a diet coke, etc.

I live on caffeine. I can fall asleep at any time of the day or night.

I just keep going on the fact that the ME found only a small amount of red fluid and nothing comes to mind what would be caffeine related. Knowing she liked wine it is my assumption it was wine since she had been to a party.

[EnvoyDriver61]

The "warning" cell phone call was someone's suppostion regarding why JA would need to call NC at 10:30, shortly after talking to BC, I think. I think it sounds plausible, but it is by no means fact.

To me, if NC had caffeine in the morning prior to her run, it would be found in the stomach, along with the red liquid.

Since I believe that the red liquid is wine from the night before, I subscribe to her having the caffeine prior to drinking wine, later in the evening.

The red liquid might be a caffeine drink and would explain caffeine in the system as well.

About the only thing I know of, and I am by no means a morning "jolt" drink expert, that is both red and has caffeine in it is that special brand of Mountain Dew that's red.

[water_dancing]

Not to disrespect the deceased, but it has been noted in the affidavits that she really liked to drink wine, not saying she had a problem, as some have hinted at on the boards. I would be interested in knowing what the toxicology reports have to say regarding her blood alcohol level. Also JA says in her affidavit that she called NC around 10:30 that night, I guess cell phone records will show for sure who was the last person she spoke with that evening. I do not see her drinking coffee or tea that evening, but it is possible if she overindulged in wine, she would have needed some coffee or tea the next morning to help with a hangover. Unless by some odd chance she came home blistered and started drinking coffee to sober up and then they fought and he killed her. I hate to bring the children into this, but unfortunately Katie and Bella may be the only ones who can tell us if NC was alive that morning. I can only imagine that BC had a bad reaction to NC when she told him to go back to the store after he had just returned, so the kids might remember this. It would be interesting if one of the children said she was sleeping rather than up and about, that would be extremely telling, and a direct inconsistency with BC's story.

I agree and I think that the CPD missed a very important piece of the puzzle by not have a child specialist interview the children, particularly Bella that 1st day. If BC wouldn't consent, than a CO