Two Oklahoma Girls (11 & 13yo) Found Murdered #14

[GetSmart]

Is Patterson the hermit guy?

[frogjustfrog]

It would be discriminatory - anywhere, but especially in Oklahoma. You must understand that like African Americans, Native Americans were treated like like they were less than human - they even took their CHILDREN away to Indian Schools (boarding schools) and tried to make the kids more "white". They have endured 200 years of abuse and lies from the white man who took their land, their languages, their religion, their way of life and finally their children. The 5 civilized tribes in OK are there because they were forced from their homes in many other states to walk to OK on a march every bit as brutal and deadly as those death marches by the Nazi's in Germany.

The Native American community is quite powerful in OK and they would be marching on the capitol building in a heartbeat and holding press conferences if this "fake POI" were to happen. Members of the NA community have already spoken out about the POI being a NA man with long hair (considered traditional NA) being too generic and possibly encouraging racist behavior by potentially targeting too many innocent NA men.

I can assure you this did NOT happen and no traditional Peace Chief of the Cheyenne Tribe would EVER agree to do this, he would resign first.

My Opinion

I understood ya. I think sometimes people get confused when we are responding to a posting which could have been on an earlier page

[frogjustfrog]

Is Patterson the hermit guy?

Yes. He is one we spoke of earlier. A neighbor who has been interviewed, but I dont think he has been cleared yet. I believe it was said that he had his children taken away from him, years ago. And that maybe his mind just snapped, hearing these girls playing from time to time.

[FlowerChild]

I don't understand - what would not happen? IIRC - there were 6 witnesses who saw the POI. It would be ignorant and irresponsible for ANYONE to say that just because he appeared to be NA, he wasn't. They can only go on what the witnesses said. Never should the fear of racial profiling stand in the way of an honest description of a POI. If that is the way the wind is blowing, we can ALL kiss our a**es goodbye!

This is the entire thread below, I was responding to Morag suggesting the POI was made up as a ruse by the OSBI and a Native American Sketch Artist (and the POI was made NA because the artist is Native American) - below is the entire conversation. What Morag suggested is discriminatory, unethical and racist anywhere, but especailly offensive in OK. That the POI is NA American is NOT a problem (or racist or discriminatory), that the OSBI and Harvey Pratt would have made him up out of whole cloth is.

I am part Cherokee and I would be offended if this occured and I don't want anyone to be misinformd that this is even a possibility.

My Opinion

They also said it was hard to interview kids...and that they knew that someone knew something. And over and over they said the girls might have interupted/encountered something at the bridge.

Why play that heart-rending 911 call, if not to shake the conscience of the someone who knows something? And they still believe it was locals.

I'm going to make a big guess here- there is no POI- he's just a ruse to make the killers feel comfortable enough to talk among themselves or others.
And the reason he looks like a Native American is because the sketch artist is NA.

Boys with guns, a dog who showed up at the bridge the next day...no motive to kill these children...I think LE thinks that this is a stupid, spur-of-the-moment crime which can happen when people/young people are fooling around with guns...

That would be a HUGE NO-NO! The equivalent of making up an African American POI because the artist happened to be African American. Over 25% of Oklahomans are members of an American Indian Tribe and probably 50% have some Native American blood. The Sketch Artist is himself a high ranking member ( a Peace Chief) of the Cheyenne Tribe and has a traditional Native Amercan family. There is NO WAY he would be a party to such a discriminatory act. The POI was not made up and he exists - but in Oklahoma there are probably 10,000 men who resemble the POI - and only ONE is the POI.

My Opinion


So it is your belief that the police would never put out a false picture of a POI in order to manipulate possible witnesses, to make them feel comfortable? I admit I know nothing about the professional ethics of sketch artists, but would they never work with police to influence the parties to the case? And if a POI was made up out of whole cloth, he would have to be described as having some general appearance. Since (maybe) he doesn't exist, what difference would it make to say he was NA, or whatever? When a suspect is described with my general appearance (middle aged Caucasian woman), it doesn't bother me. Just wondering...I don't think this would disrespect the NA community.

It would be discriminatory - anywhere, but especially in Oklahoma. You must understand that like African Americans, Native Americans were treated like like they were less than human - they even took their CHILDREN away to Indian Schools (boarding schools) and tried to make the kids more "white". They have endured 200 years of abuse and lies from the white man who took their land, their languages, their religion, their way of life and finally their children. The 5 civilized tribes in OK are there because they were forced from their homes in many other states to walk to OK on a march every bit as brutal and deadly as those death marches by the Nazi's in Germany.

The Native American community is quite powerful in OK and they would be marching on the capitol building in a heartbeat and holding press conferences if this "fake POI" were to happen. Members of the NA community have already spoken out about the POI being a NA man with long hair (considered traditional NA) being too generic and possibly encouraging racist behavior by potentially targeting too many innocent NA men.

I can assure you this did NOT happen and no traditional Peace Chief of the Cheyenne Tribe would EVER agree to do this, he would resign first.

My Opinion

[Claycat]

You know, Frog, if I had a lot of money, I would hire a couple of armed bodyguards and you I and would physically search those back roads!

:bud:

[frogjustfrog]

You know, Frog, if I had a lot of money, I would hire a couple of armed bodyguards and you I and would physically search those back roads!

:bud:
Me in a long sleeved shirt and a floppy hat, leading the way with a ... what o ya call it? Yep, I can see that. lol

[frogjustfrog]

You know, Frog, if I had a lot of money, I would hire a couple of armed bodyguards and you I and would physically search those back roads!

:bud:

I think if I had a whole lot of money, I would move those people away from there.
We'll just have to pray for it. :angel:

[SeriouslySearching]

I don't think Moraq was being derogatory. I think the crux of what he/she was saying is that IF OSBI did make up the POI in an effort to make the real perps feel too comfortable so they would make a mistake...the artist could have come up with a NA sketch because he related to it is all. I think you might be making a big thing out of nothing.

At this point, since I find it difficult to believe in anything they have told us...I can't say it would surprise me. Being misled has left a very sour taste in my mouth and even tho it was only last week that I was defending them...I can't anymore. So do I think they would do it? After Monday...Anything is possible.

[Fairy1]

This is the entire thread below, I was responding to Morag suggesting the POI was made up as a ruse by the OSBI and a Native American Sketch Artist (and the POI was made NA because the artist is Native American) - below is the entire conversation. What Morag suggested is discriminatory, unethical and racist anywhere, but especailly offensive in OK. That the POI is NA American is NOT a problem (or racist or discriminatory), that the OSBI and Harvey Pratt would have made him up out of whole cloth is.

I am part Cherokee and I would be offended if this occured and I don't want anyone to be misinformd that this is even a possibility.

My Opinion

Thank you FC - I didn't see all of this conversation. I understand. I do believe the POI is real and as described. I do not believe - necessarily - that he was directly involved in the crime. I'm more inclined to believe that he's afraid to come forward. I suppose, under the circumstances, I would be too. And I'm an almost middle-aged white woman! Then again, I assume he could call in an anonymous tip, right? Thinking out loud....
:rolleyes:

[SeriouslySearching]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=244&pictureid=2080

According to Rosser this is an illustration of where the bodies were found

I am still not convinced these are totally accurate. Not that you didn't put them where he motioned, but that he did it so generally. I still don't believe the girls were face down either. It would have been impossible to put all the shots in the front (as they claim they were) with the girls having been face down. This would have required them being moved after the fact and I don't think that happened.

[Fairy1]

I don't think Moraq was being derogatory. I think the crux of what he/she was saying is that IF OSBI did make up the POI in an effort to make the real perps feel too comfortable so they would make a mistake...the artist could have come up with a NA sketch because he related to it is all. I think you might be making a big thing out of nothing.

At this point, since I find it difficult to believe in anything they have told us...I can't say it would surprise me. Being misled has left a very sour taste in my mouth and even tho it was only last week that I was defending them...I can't anymore. So do I think they would do it? After Monday...Anything is possible.

I don't think he/she was being derogatory either - but if OSBI was going to make up an imaginary POI - they would not have had to say they were NA. I don't think they did make him up at all. I understand the frustration with the information LE is making public. But I do believe they are doing what they feel is right. We do not know what they know and they (I hope!) are taking the avenue they believe will take them to the killer(s). IMO

[Busylady]

I cannot help but wonder if part of the misinformation LE provided in the beginning is because the people at the scene were not truthful (hate to say it but thats what I feel right now).

Once they had time to research and interview everyone, they figured out no it wasnt one of the girls cell phones used to make the 911 call, time line not adding up, who was at the scene and when, who made the 911 call, etc. Due to the ongoing investigation, they did not inform the media and clarify the misinformation given, just let the family keep giving interviews and talking.

I was so upset about this yesterday after hearing the 911 call. I was ranting and raving to my husband about it, he pointed out if LE came out everytime to correct information after the investigation phase had begun, corrected family members statements they had given in interviews etc alot of cases would never be solved. One of the first things LE probably does is listen and disect the interviews family members give, and figure out what doesnt match and go from there. If they went public with those corrections LE would lose alot of valuable investigative tool, because family members would stop talking.

While it is easier for me to sit back and say LE isnt doing their job, they have mislead us, I can't put the total blame on them. I hate to say it but in my opinion some of the family members have mislead the public, which has to make me wonder why?

[frogjustfrog]

I am still not convinced these are totally accurate. Not that you didn't put them where he motioned, but that he did it so generally. I still don't believe the girls were face down either. It would have been impossible to put all the shots in the front (as they claim they were) with the girls having been face down. This would have required them being moved after the fact and I don't think that happened.

Unless, like my husband mentioned about what murders do when they know the victim, and cover their faces. Maybe he moved them over with his foot and shot them in the head for the final shot?
It sickens me to think this, but I could see it happening. just another possibility and another possible opinion. Just wish we could get a few facts. I still wonder if the first LE messed up the crime scene and weren't completely honest with OSBI. I am glad they have FBI in on it finally. I hope it isnt too late. As my husband says. Just give it to God. And try to rest. That isnt easy for me these days. But I am trying.
I said my prayer tonite, but I was an hour off. I read the clock wrong.

[Fairy1]

I cannot help but wonder if part of the misinformation LE provided in the beginning is because the people at the scene were not truthful (hate to say it but thats what I feel right now).

Once they had time to research and interview everyone, they figured out no it wasnt one of the girls cell phones used to make the 911 call, time line not adding up, who was at the scene and when, who made the 911 call, etc. Due to the ongoing investigation, they did not inform the media and clarify the misinformation given, just let the family keep giving interviews and talking.

I was so upset about this yesterday after hearing the 911 call. I was ranting and raving to my husband about it, he pointed out if LE came out everytime to correct information after the investigation phase had begun, corrected family members statements they had given in interviews etc alot of cases would never be solved. One of the first things LE probably does is listen and disect the interviews family members give, and figure out what doesnt match and go from there. If they went public with those corrections LE would lose alot of valuable investigative tool, because family members would stop talking.

While it is easier for me to sit back and say LE isnt doing their job, they have mislead us, I can't put the total blame on them. I hate to say it but in my opinion some of the family members have mislead the public, which has to make me wonder why?

Wow! By nature, I'm generally a very cynical person. But I guess I don't understand the cynicism here at all! Regardless of where you live, do you honestly believe that if 2 young girls were brutally gunned down in cold blood, in broad daylight, that there would not be outrage all around??? Do you believce that any LE agencies - with the national spotlight on them and the case - would knowingly mislead the public? I guess I just don't see it. I don't consider myself naive (SS), but I cannot believe this is a conspirisy. IMO

[frogjustfrog]

I know that some don't appreciate me talking about God, and prayer, and faith, and the word, on this forum. So do you think we could make a thread for that?

[Fairy1]

Unless, like my husband mentioned about what murders do when they know the victim, and cover their faces. Maybe he moved them over with his foot and shot them in the head for the final shot?
It sickens me to think this, but I could see it happening. just another possibility and another possible opinion. Just wish we could get a few facts. I still wonder if the first LE messed up the crime scene and weren't completely honest with OSBI. I am glad they have FBI in on it finally. I hope it isnt too late. As my husband says. Just give it to God. And try to rest. That isnt easy for me these days. But I am trying.
I said my prayer tonite, but I was an hour off. I read the clock wrong.

:blowkiss::blowkiss::blowkiss: I really don't think God cares what time you pray - just as long as you do!

[Fairy1]

I know that some don't appreciate me talking about God, and prayer, and faith, and the word, on this forum. So do you think we could make a thread for that?

I am not a religious person AT ALL. However, I do think that anyone who spends any time on these boards would welcome the presence of a higher power. It's just hard to believe when we see what we see here......IMO

[Busylady]

I am confused? Nothing in my post said LE was misleading anyone or any conspiracy? I actually was saying I can't put the blame on LE? Help me out here with regards to understanding your response to me.

Wow! By nature, I'm generally a very cynical person. But I guess I don't understand the cynicism here at all! Regardless of where you live, do you honestly believe that if 2 young girls were brutally gunned down in cold blood, in broad daylight, that there would not be outrage all around??? Do you believce that any LE agencies - with the national spotlight on them and the case - would knowingly mislead the public? I guess I just don't see it. I don't consider myself naive (SS), but I cannot believe this is a conspirisy. IMO

[frogjustfrog]

I am not a religious person AT ALL. However, I do think that anyone who spends any time on these boards would welcome the presence of a higher power. It's just hard to believe when we see what we see here......IMO

I have met a number of brothers and sisters in Christ in this forum. But it obviously offends some. Seems like everyone can say what they please, but they cant say what they are taught about the Word of God without criticizm. So. I would just like a thread. Kinda like a chapel, that we who believe, can join together in. And those who would rather not be involved, dont have to join us.

SS... can you help me to know how to do this? I can read about it tomorrow, I am sure, but I just want to know that it is ok.

[Busylady]

Im not sure if you know already, but there is a prayer thread in the Jury room section of this board. It might provide you alot of comfort if you want to check it out.

I have met a number of brothers and sisters in Christ in this forum. But it obviously offends some. Seems like everyone can say what they please, but they cant say what they are taught about the Word of God without criticizm. So. I would just like a thread. Kinda like a chapel, that we who believe, can join together in. And those who would rather not be involved, dont have to join us.

SS... can you help me to know how to do this? I can read about it tomorrow, I am sure, but I just want to know that it is ok.

[frogjustfrog]

Im not sure if you know already, but there is a prayer thread in the Jury room section of this board. It might provide you alot of comfort if you want to check it out.

Oh thank you, busylady. Thank you so much for that information. I will definately visit there, and probably frequently, God has been so good to me!
Muah!:blowkiss:

[FlowerChild]

I am still not convinced these are totally accurate. Not that you didn't put them where he motioned, but that he did it so generally. I still don't believe the girls were face down either. It would have been impossible to put all the shots in the front (as they claim they were) with the girls having been face down. This would have required them being moved after the fact and I don't think that happened.
I didn't show the bodies face up or face down, just symbols - since we don't know.

I believe the girls could have been shot in the face and chest and fallen face down. From what I can see both girls were standing on a gradual downward slope toward the roadway - and the shots came from that direction so they must have been facing the road (and the shooter) on ground with a gradual slope forward. People who are shot, don't fall immediately - the natural physical response to being shot (from the front or the back) is to take maybe a step or two forward, stop in shock and then grasp your hands over your chest or face/head and bend forward at the waist defensively. That position weights the body even more to the front than it is naturally. People who "crumple" from the knees or waist usually fall face down because the human neck is designed to drop the head forward to the chest and the waist only bends one way, forcing the body forward onto it's face, not backward onto it's back.

What is shown on TV with people falling and dying on their backs, is not realistic. Reality is that humans who are shot in the chest instinctively bend at the waist to protect the chest and present a smaller target, then their knees collapse, propelling the body down to a kneeling position (where shots to the front of the body can continue) and finally the now heavily front weighted body leans forward at the waist and falls face down, due to the now unsupported weight of the head collapsed to the chest pulling them forward. The girls could have been shot several times in the chest and face and neck while still upright (the shots reportedly came fast) and still fallen face down. Then the gunman/men COULD (we don't know that he did) have approached the bodies and delivered a kill shot or two to the top of the head from a standing position, or if he knelt down or bent over, a kill shot or two under the chin. The girls would remain as they fell, face down and the gunman would never have to touch the body.

Unless the 1st shots were made at very close range, by a very powerful weapon that would literally propel the body backward onto it's butt (and eventually falling backward from a sitting position face up) due to the force of the shot, OR the ground was sloped significantly downward behind each girl, it is likely that the information released in the 1st few days is correct, and the girls were both face down, heads toward the road. And Rosser was very clear that the girls heads were toward the road. To fall on their backs with their heads toward the road, they would literally have had to spin around with their BACKS to the shooter positioned in the road (where the bullet casing were found) before they fell - and no wounds to the back were reported by the ME...chest and face/head only.

If they didn't fall that way, if anyone moved the bodies onto their backs it would have probably have been Peter Placker, not the killer. While the killer(s) could have, it wouldn't make any sense for the killer(s) to turn the girls face up (or touch the bodies at all). I mean I hope the killer(s) were that stupid and left their DNA all over the girls, but I am not counting on that.

My Opinion

[RoseRed]

I don't know what other kids are around the Plackers?

I am not sure how many of the Placker's live in Weleetka but we saw photos on Linda Kay Plackers My Space. The brother or both brothers have younger children than Taylor. Wasn't there two boys and maybe a girl. I have forgotten how many but I remember at least two little boys. Do these brothers or at least one brother live in Weleetka?

[frogjustfrog]

Personally I dont know. Have you checked the other threads to this case> The Obits may be there.

[frogjustfrog]

I just wish I could sleep!

[frogjustfrog]

goodnight.

[RoseRed]

I am part Cherokee and I would be offended if this occured and I don't want anyone to be misinformd that this is even a possibility.

My Opinion

I am probably less than 1/8 NA but I would also be offended if this happened. I know I am actually considered Caucasian but it would still offend me because I have that little bity part NA and the history/memories passed down from my grandmother.
JMHO

[RoseRed]

I hate to say it but in my opinion some of the family members have mislead the public, which has to make me wonder why?

I don't believe family members mislead on purpose. I think they are still trying to get their nerves settled down and come to grips with what happened that afternoon. Have you ever had a rather severe auto accident and days later you remember something you had entirely forgotten about it. Only what these families went though was about 100 times worse than auto accident. I can't see saying not truthful when they were in Shock and probably still are. JMO

[RoseRed]

I have met a number of brothers and sisters in Christ in this forum. But it obviously offends some. Seems like everyone can say what they please, but they cant say what they are taught about the Word of God without criticizm. So. I would just like a thread. Kinda like a chapel, that we who believe, can join together in. And those who would rather not be involved, dont have to join us.

SS... can you help me to know how to do this? I can read about it tomorrow, I am sure, but I just want to know that it is ok.

Just expect other religions to come in and converse with you and don't go to the HFTM forums and not expect reticule on their religion forum.

[RoseRed]

Well I guess I am alone so night all. Maybe there will be better news tomorrow.

[ArizonaGiGi]

Hi Rose if ur still up,
just catching up on the posts. I'm a little surprised that we haven't heard something in the way of leads since the heartwrenching 911 tape was released. Still hoping soon

SS thanks so much for letting me steal your poi avatar. it'd be cool if lots of ppl on here did the same and we could advertise his face. If he happened to come on here, he'd see himself everywhere. lol

[SeriouslySearching]

Frog, it really isn't something we do on the forums. There is a prayer thread in the Jury Room for members to congregate tho. :) Happy praying and conversing!

[RoseRed]

SS thanks so much for letting me steal your poi avatar. it'd be cool if lots of ppl on here did the same and we could advertise his face. If he happened to come on here, he'd see himself everywhere. lol

Yes thanks SS. am trying to change avatar. Will see what happens.

[Busylady]

I think the avatar thing is a wonderful idea. I am just going to have to train myself to look at posters names versus recognizing posters by avatar.

[RoseRed]

I think the avatar thing is a wonderful idea. I am just going to have to train myself to look at posters names versus recognizing posters by avatar.

I can't get mine to change for some reason.

[Nickelfoo]

I'm not sure, another unsolved case. If I remember right wasn't there 3 girls killed at Locust Grove?

That is correct. That case affected me a great deal as I was just a bit older than those girls and I had attended girl scout camp (a different camp then the one at Locust Grove) year before. They reopened that case about a year ago to check the DNA but still have not released any information. Unlike this case, the motive was the rape and murder of those three little girls. I looked up Harvey Pratt and yes he did work on that case and to my surprise, he worked the Sirlion Stockade murders as well, which opened up even more painful memories for me. A very good friend of mine was murdered in that walk-in freezer that night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Pratt

I pray they find whoever did this so justice can be served. Although knowing the motive will never take away the pain the families are enduring, it may help if this person/people are caught.

[Nickelfoo]

It would be discriminatory - anywhere, but especially in Oklahoma. You must understand that like African Americans, Native Americans were treated like like they were less than human - they even took their CHILDREN away to Indian Schools (boarding schools) and tried to make the kids more "white". They have endured 200 years of abuse and lies from the white man who took their land, their languages, their religion, their way of life and finally their children. The 5 civilized tribes in OK are there because they were forced from their homes in many other states to walk to OK on a march every bit as brutal and deadly as those death marches by the Nazi's in Germany.

The Native American community is quite powerful in OK and they would be marching on the capitol building in a heartbeat and holding press conferences if this "fake POI" were to happen. Members of the NA community have already spoken out about the POI being a NA man with long hair (considered traditional NA) being too generic and possibly encouraging racist behavior by potentially targeting too many innocent NA men.

I can assure you this did NOT happen and no traditional Peace Chief of the Cheyenne Tribe would EVER agree to do this, he would resign first.

My Opinion



FC, you are absolutly on the mark here. I too am from Oklahoma and my grandmother is 1/2 Native American. At one point our family was on the role for benefits, but this was considered an embarassment at the time so we dropped our role number and never collected any benefits from this. Boy I would sure like to have that back. My children sure could use that assistance to help them pay for college.

[christine2448]

I cannot help but wonder if part of the misinformation LE provided in the beginning is because the people at the scene were not truthful (hate to say it but thats what I feel right now).

Once they had time to research and interview everyone, they figured out no it wasnt one of the girls cell phones used to make the 911 call, time line not adding up, who was at the scene and when, who made the 911 call, etc. Due to the ongoing investigation, they did not inform the media and clarify the misinformation given, just let the family keep giving interviews and talking.

I was so upset about this yesterday after hearing the 911 call. I was ranting and raving to my husband about it, he pointed out if LE came out everytime to correct information after the investigation phase had begun, corrected family members statements they had given in interviews etc alot of cases would never be solved. One of the first things LE probably does is listen and disect the interviews family members give, and figure out what doesnt match and go from there. If they went public with those corrections LE would lose alot of valuable investigative tool, because family members would stop talking.

While it is easier for me to sit back and say LE isnt doing their job, they have mislead us, I can't put the total blame on them. I hate to say it but in my opinion some of the family members have mislead the public, which has to make me wonder why?

I agree that it's very likely the facts have changed a few times since LE first pulled up on that scene. Part of investigating is pulling it all together...what did they know for sure when they first arrived it was prolly total chaos, they were reporting what they (LE) thought to be true at time of reporting, as they investigated (and are not releasing info/changes as they are learning to us) they are getting the facts straight.

As far as family, I haven't got that figured out. Haven't followed closely enough to come to a good conclusion. You feel however, they have been misleading. Do you think they are involved? Or they know but are staying quite?

I still am clueless on this one. Absolutely clueless. If we had another poll (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66424)today, I'd answer the same as I did before...."I don't know and I can't even guess".

[tapu]

Peter Placker said Taylor had been walking down to the bridge for several months to exercise - he did not say so, but I betcha there were a few boys hanging around down there sometimes too, Taylor was 13, old enough to be a little interested in the boys. The bridge was a bit of a "kids" hangout - not much else to do out in the country for kids under 16.

Peter Placker did say that it was just in the last few months that they allowed Taylor to walk down there alone - after she told them she was getting older and they should trust her --- the usual "give me some freedom" phase that 12 and 13 year olds go thru. Taylor had turned 13 a few month ago - she was a year behind in school - kids her age are usually going into the 8th grade, not the 7th. Taylor would have turned 14 before she finished 7th grade and 16 before she finished 9th grade

My Opinion



Hmm.... Well, the only thing I get from that is that, if the bridge was such a popular hang-out, then it would be odd for anything criminal or otherwise unsavory to be going down there. Maybe the girls went elsewhere on the way to the bridge (can't imagine where--i grew up in a rural area, too, but... taking the boy-interest idea quite seriously) and saw something in that less-used location. There a water tower, old substation, anything else at all around?

(ta' flower. much appreciated.)

[christine2448]

That is correct. That case affected me a great deal as I was just a bit older than those girls and I had attended girl scout camp (a different camp then the one at Locust Grove) year before. They reopened that case about a year ago to check the DNA but still have not released any information. Unlike this case, the motive was the rape and murder of those three little girls. I looked up Harvey Pratt and yes he did work on that case and to my surprise, he worked the Sirlion Stockade murders as well, which opened up even more painful memories for me. A very good friend of mine was murdered in that walk-in freezer that night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Pratt

I pray they find whoever did this so justice can be served. Although knowing the motive will never take away the pain the families are enduring, it may help if this person/people are caught.

Are you referrring to the murders at the girl scout camp, 1977, Camp Scott?

[tapu]

It would be discriminatory - anywhere, but especially in Oklahoma. You must understand that like African Americans, Native Americans were treated like like they were less than human - they even took their CHILDREN away to Indian Schools (boarding schools) and tried to make the kids more "white". They have endured 200 years of abuse and lies from the white man who took their land, their languages, their religion, their way of life and finally their children. The 5 civilized tribes in OK are there because they were forced from their homes in many other states to walk to OK on a march every bit as brutal and deadly as those death marches by the Nazi's in Germany.

The Native American community is quite powerful in OK and they would be marching on the capitol building in a heartbeat and holding press conferences if this "fake POI" were to happen. Members of the NA community have already spoken out about the POI being a NA man with long hair (considered traditional NA) being too generic and possibly encouraging racist behavior by potentially targeting too many innocent NA men.

I can assure you this did NOT happen and no traditional Peace Chief of the Cheyenne Tribe would EVER agree to do this, he would resign first.

My Opinion


Thank you for explaining this. Morag, I would add that if you want to read about a sensational case where something similar was involved, see the Charles Stuart case in Boston. He was the perp, but made up a young black male perp. When you read what happened, you will see why no one--especially LE--would want to go that direction.

[Nickelfoo]

Are you referrring to the murders at the girl scout camp, 1977, Camp Scott?

Yes that is the one. The suspect Gene Leroy Hart died in prison, but if memory serves, he was in prison for a different reason. I dont think he was ever convicted of these murders.

[tapu]

I cannot help but wonder if part of the misinformation LE provided in the beginning is because the people at the scene were not truthful (hate to say it but thats what I feel right now).

Once they had time to research and interview everyone, they figured out no it wasnt one of the girls cell phones used to make the 911 call, time line not adding up, who was at the scene and when, who made the 911 call, etc. Due to the ongoing investigation, they did not inform the media and clarify the misinformation given, just let the family keep giving interviews and talking.

I was so upset about this yesterday after hearing the 911 call. I was ranting and raving to my husband about it, he pointed out if LE came out everytime to correct information after the investigation phase had begun, corrected family members statements they had given in interviews etc alot of cases would never be solved. One of the first things LE probably does is listen and disect the interviews family members give, and figure out what doesnt match and go from there. If they went public with those corrections LE would lose alot of valuable investigative tool, because family members would stop talking.

While it is easier for me to sit back and say LE isnt doing their job, they have mislead us, I can't put the total blame on them. I hate to say it but in my opinion some of the family members have mislead the public, which has to make me wonder why?



I think this is an excellent post, but would like to suggest that the people involved mostly are not being misleading-- rather, the confusion around a crime like this happening affects recall, and recall changes over time. Anyone who has ever been witness to a crime is usually astonished at the differences between what they recall and what others recall (for example).

[CMorrison64]

Hi Rose if ur still up,
just catching up on the posts. I'm a little surprised that we haven't heard something in the way of leads since the heartwrenching 911 tape was released. Still hoping soon

SS thanks so much for letting me steal your poi avatar. it'd be cool if lots of ppl on here did the same and we could advertise his face. If he happened to come on here, he'd see himself everywhere. lol

How do you steal it, I'd be glad to take it and spread it around as well.

[hannahsnana]

Nickelfoo, you can't "lose" your place on the Dawes Rolls. However, it would not be you, but your ancestors who would have been registered by the government on the Rolls. This took place in the late 1800s and early 1900s. All declared members of the Five Civilized Tribes who had been removed to Oklahoma were registered on the Dawes Rolls.
If you can provide real documentation (not hearsay) that shows you to be a descendant of one of those registered, you are eligible to be a member of the Tribe, DEPENDING on your blood quantum. Some tribes require a certain blood quantum for membership, others do not.

[Busylady]

I do not think they are necessarily directly involved in the deaths, but I think they are afraid of something and there is some misleading going on by them in order to keep some family members out of trouble.



I agree that it's very likely the facts have changed a few times since LE first pulled up on that scene. Part of investigating is pulling it all together...what did they know for sure when they first arrived it was prolly total chaos, they were reporting what they (LE) thought to be true at time of reporting, as they investigated (and are not releasing info/changes as they are learning to us) they are getting the facts straight.

As far as family, I haven't got that figured out. Haven't followed closely enough to come to a good conclusion. You feel however, they have been misleading. Do you think they are involved? Or they know but are staying quite?

I still am clueless on this one. Absolutely clueless. If we had another poll (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66424)today, I'd answer the same as I did before...."I don't know and I can't even guess".

[tapu]

I didn't show the bodies face up or face down, just symbols - since we don't know.
~~snip~~
it is likely that the information released in the 1st few days is correct, and the girls were both face down, heads toward the road. And Rosser was very clear that the girls heads were toward the road. To fall on their backs with their heads toward the road, they would literally have had to spin around with their BACKS to the shooter positioned in the road (where the bullet casing were found) before they fell - and no wounds to the back were reported by the ME...chest and face/head only.

If they didn't fall that way, if anyone moved the bodies onto their backs it would have probably have been Peter Placker, not the killer. While the killer(s) could have, it wouldn't make any sense for the killer(s) to turn the girls face up (or touch the bodies at all).
~~snip~~
My Opinion


Thoughts on this:

Certain factors in this situation make it extremely intense for the shooter(s). Like, broad daylight, on a road, with a driveway in sight. (Leaving aside for now the fact that he/they were shooting little girls.) This leads me to think there have to be two shooters, as one would not empty a second gun into them after shooting them with the first. (unless of course they weren't dead, but that seems unlikely given the number of shots.)

The other point brought to mind for me does harken back to the fact that they were pumping bullets in little girls: it would provide a plausible reason for the shooter(s) NOT to turn them over. Now, coming from FC's reasoning above (which I think is really good) that the bodies would fall face down, I think that would be their position upon being found. Don't killers who have some regret/feelings usually turn their victims face down, not face up?

Scheiss, that last part may seem confused but I think I know what I mean.... :rolleyes:

[christine2448]

Yes that is the one. The suspect Gene Leroy Hart died in prison, but if memory serves, he was in prison for a different reason. I dont think he was ever convicted of these murders.

He was convicted and it was overturned, IIRC, 2 yrs later he was aquitted..he did die in jail, he was in jail for rape, again IIRC....I was just reading about this, let me see if I can find a link. Here it is, the article came out last month...



To date, the late Gene Leroy Hart is the only person to ever be charged with the murder of the three Girl Scouts. Hart, then 34 and a fugitive, had been spotted living in the Cookson Hills near Camp Scott at the time of the murders.
Hart, however, was acquitted by a Mayes County jury in March 1979. Two months after his acquittal, Hart collapsed at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary in McAlester from a heart attack while serving 308 years for unrelated rape, burglary, and kidnapping convictions. “I feel badly for the families of those little girls who were murdered,” said Garvin Isaacs, Hart’s defense attorney. “But Gene Leroy Hart was an innocent man who was falsely accused.”



Was a female involved in 1977 Girl Scout slayings? (http://newsok.com/was-a-female-involved-in-1977-girl-scout-slayings/article/3261879/)

Article was 6/25/08 about DNA


LOCUST GROVE — The unsolved 1977 Girl Scouts murder mystery just grew murkier.

Recent DNA tests failed to identify the killer or killers who raped and murdered three Oklahoma girls June 13, 1977, at Camp Scott in Locust Grove. However, the tests revealed a partial female DNA profile, Mayes County District Attorney Gene Haynes announced Tuesday in a news release.
Testing from a semen-stained pillowcase found at the crime scene failed to exclude all three of the victims or the possibility of a female attacker, adding to the stockpile of questions that already surround this enduring mystery.

[Nickelfoo]

Nickelfoo, you can't "lose" your place on the Dawes Rolls. However, it would not be you, but your ancestors who would have been registered by the government on the Rolls. This took place in the late 1800s and early 1900s. All declared members of the Five Civilized Tribes who had been removed to Oklahoma were registered on the Dawes Rolls.
If you can provide real documentation (not hearsay) that shows you to be a descendant of one of those registered, you are eligible to be a member of the Tribe, DEPENDING on your blood quantum. Some tribes require a certain blood quantum for membership, others do not.


Yes I understand all that. There is no proof as it was decided to be forgotten. My grandmother is too old to remember any of the information and my father was not interested in any of it.

[tapu]

Thoughts on this:

Certain factors in this situation make it extremely intense for the shooter(s). Like, broad daylight, on a road, with a driveway in sight. (Leaving aside for now the fact that he/they were shooting little girls.) This leads me to think there have to be two shooters, as one would not empty a second gun into them after shooting them with the first. (unless of course they weren't dead, but that seems unlikely given the number of shots.)

~snip~

Yes, I'm debating with myself.... :rolleyes:
But I want to counter the idea that two guns = two shooters, based solely on the belief that it is damned unlikely to find two guys who would empty guns into two little girls on a road in broad daylight. Maybe the killer just really was that thorough that he got another gun to make sure the job was done. Must have had nerves of steel, though, given where he was.

[tapu]

Is this info available from family/witnesses, or discernible from what we know about the road:


Were the girls found on the side of the road that they usually walked on, given the direction they were going (toward the placker house)? I figure they always were on one side, but if this were different from where they were found, I would have to envision a different scenario.

(As it is, I'm seeing the perp coming up and shooting them both rapidly, no or few words exchanged. If they were on the "wrong" side of the road, more may have preceded the shots.)

[RoseRed]

Yes, I'm debating with myself.... :rolleyes:
But I want to counter the idea that two guns = two shooters, based solely on the belief that it is damned unlikely to find two guys who would empty guns into two little girls on a road in broad daylight. Maybe the killer just really was that thorough that he got another gun to make sure the job was done. Must have had nerves of steel, though, given where he was.

Yes, nerves of steel and mean as the devil.

[tapu]

Yes, nerves of steel and mean as the devil.

Yeah, that's why I think this was an experienced, hardened shooter. No "local boys" or non-criminal extended family or anyone like that executed these girls. This was not the first time this shooter killed. (now that's really speculative, but it's how it hits me.)

[hannahsnana]

tapu, do you mean as in "hired gun" maybe? Maybe in relation to Skyla's brother's plea deal?

[christine2448]

Yes, I'm debating with myself.... :rolleyes:


LMAO! That is awesome, IMO, FWIW. I do it sometimes too!

At least you do it as 'one' person...we have had peeps sign up as 2 users and argue w/themselves or agree w/themselves..it's always funny when we catch them.

[christine2448]

Yeah, that's why I think this was an experienced, hardened shooter. No "local boys" or non-criminal extended family or anyone like that executed these girls. This was not the first time this shooter killed. (now that's really speculative, but it's how it hits me.)

This is one of my theories also. IIRC, the familes aren't all that 'clean'...someone could have done this as a hit against one of the other family members.?.

[tapu]

tapu, do you mean as in "hired gun" maybe? Maybe in relation to Skyla's brother's plea deal?

Ah. I haven't given lots of credence to the idea that this was a planned hit. However, the connection you make here is a possibility.

For me, the most crucial clue to who did this is that he could pump 2 guns into children walking down a road. Who does that?? Even a "hired gun" would have to be pretty high-up in the criminal hierarchy, and Skyla's brother's case would have to be awfully compelling in its maliciousness to get someone to want this done and someone else to do it.

It's like a mob (read: drug) hit, rather than a "thrill kill" or anything less.

[RoseRed]

LMAO! That is awesome, IMO, FWIW. I do it sometimes too!

At least you do it as 'one' person...we have had peeps sign up as 2 users and argue w/themselves or agree w/themselves..it's always funny when we catch them.

I am on a Tuscaloosa newspaper list and we had that one night for about four hours. It was hilarious a poster was defending his sister that folks were talking about and he became two members and argued with himself and other people. He spelled really good as one person and very badly as the other until they got him really mad then he would forget who he was and get it all reversed.

[Nickelfoo]

Ah. I haven't given lots of credence to the idea that this was a planned hit. However, the connection you make here is a possibility.

For me, the most crucial clue to who did this is that he could pump 2 guns into children walking down a road. Who does that?? Even a "hired gun" would have to be pretty high-up in the criminal hierarchy, and Skyla's brother's case would have to be awfully compelling in its maliciousness to get someone to want this done and someone else to do it.

It's like a mob (read: drug) hit, rather than a "thrill kill" or anything less.

What could warrant this type of hit? If it was because of Skyla's brother in prison, why not just put the hit out on him? We all know this happens, so what good came from killing these babies? Did it gain anything?

[tapu]

tapu, do you mean as in "hired gun" maybe? Maybe in relation to Skyla's brother's plea deal?

Okay, I've been trying out the idea of a "hired gun" and the scenario I come up with seems extremely implausible...

The guy would have to drive around, presumably with a picture of Skyla (or, granted, a family picture with anyone in it as target), and then come across her conveniently in a spot where he could kill her unseen.
Now, I just can't imagine a hired killer doing that. Too much chance of being seen, remembered. Even if all he did was drive up and down that particular road.
I grew up in Appalachia and I swear we saw and thought about everyone who ever drove down "Buffalo Mine Road".... :)

[Nickelfoo]

I know this has probably been addressed before so sorry. But I read that we did not know who Taylor's parents are but was wondering why the hyphen in her name and do all 4 Pashel/Placker children live with the grandparents and are they all brothers and sisters or cousins or what? This get so confusing.

[Albert18]

We have two recurring themes in this crime. A lot of what we know doesn't seem to make sense and LE is keeping an extremely tight lid on all info on this case. In fact I don't know if I have ever seen a case where LE was so secretive. There has to be a reason for all of this.

I think LE is working on the theory that there is at least one person involved who didn't pull the trigger or is somehow lesser involved. LE is deliberately using misinformation to try to create a cloudy and chaotic situation that Sunday afternoon. They don't want real information to get out because it might undercut the MISINFORMATION they have created. They want to make the killer or killers nervous and scared by creating uncertainty and doubt as to what was all going on that afternoon. Someone who is nervous and scared may make a phone call or confide in a confidant who may make a phone call.

Greta asked Jessica Brown if they had a POI in this case and in my opinion Jessica Brown either deflected the question or she didn't understand the question. How could she not have understood the question? And during the last press conference, how much time did Jessica Brown spend on the POI?

Therefore I think part of what we know about the POI isn't true. The POI was put in that area around that time to create uncertainty and doubt. The reason they didn't release info about the POI immediately could be because it took them a few days to formulate the plan.

This doesn't mean the POI isn't real. The POI just may not be what we think. Just like when a pedophile thinks he has set up a sexual encounter with a 12 year old girl over the internet and the 12 year old turns out to be a 30 year old cop.

I think we have a high stakes game going on. I will back off LE a bit as I think I see what they are doing. I still think they can use this approach and wine and dine the locals but that is hard to judge from hundreds of miles away.

So the next time you are thinking; well how can a witness see the girls walking and not the POI and other witnesses see the POI but not the girls? Now you know. Things aren't what they seem in a mirage.

[Nickelfoo]

We have two recurring themes in this crime. A lot of what we know doesn't seem to make sense and LE is keeping an extremely tight lid on all info on this case. In fact I don't know if I have ever seen a case where LE was so secretive. There has to be a reason for all of this.

I think LE is working on the theory that there is at least one person involved who didn't pull the trigger or is somehow lesser involved. LE is deliberately using misinformation to try to create a cloudy and chaotic situation that Sunday afternoon. They don't want real information to get out because it might undercut the MISINFORMATION they have created. They want to make the killer or killers nervous and scared by creating uncertainty and doubt as to what was all going on that afternoon. Someone who is nervous and scared may make a phone call or confide in a confidant who may make a phone call.

Greta asked Jessica Brown if they had a POI in this case and in my opinion Jessica Brown either deflected the question or she didn't understand the question. How could she not have understood the question? And during the last press conference, how much time did Jessica Brown spend on the POI?

Therefore I think part of what we know about the POI isn't true. The POI was put in that area around that time to create uncertainty and doubt. The reason they didn't release info about the POI immediately could be because it took them a few days to formulate the plan.

This doesn't mean the POI isn't real. The POI just may not be what we think. Just like when a pedophile thinks he has set up a sexual encounter with a 12 year old girl over the internet and the 12 year old turns out to be a 30 year old cop.

I think we have a high stakes game going on. I will back off LE a bit as I think I see what they are doing. I still think they can use this approach and wine and dine the locals but that is hard to judge from hundreds of miles away.

So the next time you are thinking; well how can a witness see the girls walking and not the POI and other witnesses see the POI but not the girls? Now you know. Things aren't what they seem in a mirage.

I understand what you are saying, I just don't follow as to why this misinformation would spook someone. I might be missing something, but IMO, if I comitted a crime and the police were saying they have a POI that does not look anything like me, I would not call them and tell them they are wrong, thats not what I look like. Again please forgive me if I am misunderstanding.

[tapu]

Well, people can believe anything they want about LE and some of it has to be right, but... it is my studied opinion that no LE agency would put out a sketch of a POI falsified in any way whatsoever. I think they sweat bullets when they put out ANY sketch.

[Albert18]

I understand what you are saying, I just don't follow as to why this misinformation would spook someone. I might be missing something, but IMO, if I comitted a crime and the police were saying they have a POI that does not look anything like me, I would not call them and tell them they are wrong, thats not what I look like. Again please forgive me if I am misunderstanding.

LE has always made the point that they don't think the POI was involved, they just want to talk to him. So by using the POI they are moving eyeballs around the area and eyeballs tend to see things. The eyeballs are probably real, we just don't know where they were that Sunday and neither do the killer or killers.

I saw on a TV show recently or read about someone in LE talking about how when they catch a criminal and talk to him, the criminal usually was paronoid and tended to think LE knew more than LE actually did. He said it is such a given fact that they use this as a tool in investigations.

[Nickelfoo]

Well, people can believe anything they want about LE and some of it has to be right, but... it is my studied opinion that no LE agency would put out a sketch of a POI falsified in any way whatsoever. I think they sweat bullets when they put out ANY sketch.

I agree with you completely. I do assume they do not release all information, but I do not think they intentionally put out false information. Now, is LE perfect? absolutly not. Have they put out incorrect information, yes. But I don't feel it was deliberet.

[Albert18]

You are completely missing the point.

Nobody is saying the sketch isn't real. Nobody is saying the POI isn't real.

[Nickelfoo]

As I said earlier, I apologize if I was missing the point. I am just not sure "what plan they were formulating"?

[tapu]

You are completely missing the point.

Nobody is saying the sketch isn't real. Nobody is saying the POI isn't real.



Albert18: "I think part of what we know about the POI isn't true. The POI was put in that area around that time to create uncertainty and doubt. The reason they didn't release info about the POI immediately could be because it took them a few days to formulate the plan."


I guess I don't understand what you're saying then. My apologies.

[hannahsnana]

Nickelfoo and Tapu, I think you are right about the "hired gun" theory. It would just be too hard to locate the intended target when no one else was around.
Albert, I agree with FlowerChild and you that the POI is probably real. My own personal theory is that it was a person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe someone with a record, or someone who thought LE would never believe he wasn't involved, thus not coming forward. Perhaps he saw the crime taking place from a distance while driving his pickup, maybe even saw the shooter(s) before they left the scene (once again from a distance). He didn't really know what was going on until he came up on the scene right after the shootings, hence the crazy angle of his vehicle as he stopped, not believing his eyes.

[tapu]

Hmm.... I rather fancy the POI as THE shooter, but without an eyewitness to the actual crime. That is, that the POI was the shooter and was only seen driving past someone in either direction. (Oh, wait, though: hannah'snana, what do we know about his truck's position?? I think i've not caught up to that)

[YellowDog]

I think these murders were retribution for something the girls did or knew. It was an execution. They made sure both girls were dead. And they were so angry that they didn't even have any concerns about it being in broad daylight in a traveled area. They didn't even try to hide the bodies. They wanted vengeance. I believe they met up with the killer or killers at the bridge, something transpired, the girls left to go home and they were followed and killed.

I tend to think the truck on the road was someone driving by who saw the bodies, got out to make sure he was seeing what he thought he'd seen and then left because he was afraid he'd become their number one suspect. He also could have been someone on parole who was out of his county and afraid of a parole violation charge.

In a town of less than 1000 people, anyone driving a white truck has probably already been turned in for questioning. And you know everyone must be looking over their shoulders wondering about who could possibly be a suspect.

The town of Dustin is located on a former Indian Reservation and about 5 miles away I believe. Maybe they need to look around there, too.

[Nickelfoo]

I think these murders were retribution for something the girls did or knew. It was an execution. They made sure both girls were dead. And they were so angry that they didn't even have any concerns about it being in broad daylight in a traveled area. They didn't even try to hide the bodies. They wanted vengeance. I believe they met up with the killer or killers at the bridge, something transpired, the girls left to go home and they were followed and killed.

I tend to think the truck on the road was someone driving by who saw the bodies, got out to make sure he was seeing what he thought he'd seen and then left because he was afraid he'd become their number one suspect. He also could have been someone on parole who was out of his county and afraid of a parole violation charge.

In a town of less than 1000 people, anyone driving a white truck has probably already been turned in for questioning. And you know everyone must be looking over their shoulders wondering about who could possibly be a suspect.

The town of Dustin is located on a former Indian Reservation and about 5 miles away I believe. Maybe they need to look around there, too.

You may be right. He may be afraid they will not believe him. What in the world could 2 little girls have done or seen to anger someone that much? Drugs? Someone was out of control to unload 2 guns on those girls. It is hard to believe in a town that size that no one has recognized that POI picture.

[Albert18]

What I am saying isn't negative about LE at all, in fact it is just the opposite.

From what I knew about the POI it seemed to me the POI had to be the killer or one of the killers.

But....

* LE doesn't seem that interested in the POI.
* LE is pushing the two or more involved theory, but only one POI.
* LE says they don't think the POI is involved, they just want to talk to him. How can he be there and not be involved?
* LE is pushing the local involvement theory but how can the POI be local and not have been found already?

I was chalking up all of this confusion and inconsistencies to incompetence on the part of LE. Now I think differently. I think they are playing mind games with the people who did this. They are trying to increase the paranoia of the killer or killers. And paranoid people do strange things.

This is all good. Let me give an example.

Claycat advances her theory but then she always stops because she says she can't account for the POI. What I am saying is that the POI is no longer part of the equation. We don't have to account for the POI!!!! (ETA: I should say POI is no longer part of the killing equation. Just like LE has told us.)

[tapu]

What I am saying isn't negative about LE at all, in fact it is just the opposite.

From what I knew about the POI it seemed to me the POI had to be the killer or one of the killers.

But....

* LE doesn't seem that interested in the POI.
* LE is pushing the two or more involved theory, but only one POI.
* LE says they don't think the POI is involved, they just want to talk to him. How can he be there and not be involved?
* LE is pushing the local involvement theory but how can the POI be local and not have been found already?

I was chalking up all of this confusion and inconsistencies to incompetence on the part of LE. Now I think differently. I think they are playing mind games with the people who did this. They are trying to increase the paranoia of the killer or killers. And paranoid people do strange things.

This is all good. Let me give an example.

Claycat advances her theory but then she always stops because she says she can't account for the POI. What I am saying is that the POI is no longer part of the equation. We don't have to account for the POI!!!! (ETA: I should say POI is no longer part of the killing equation. Just like LE has told us.)




Then... who is the POI really? How would LE have eliminated him if he hasn't been found? And, why is the sketch still out there.

(If anyone wants to read about the ultimate LE lesson on putting out suspect sketches, do see the Boston case of Charles Stuart. The city rioted. On edit: Albert, I'm not saying you think LE put out a suspect sketch in this case--as a matter of fact, I don't know what you are thinking about that. But, the Stuart case is a classic anecdote regarding why LE would not put out--or leave out--a sketch that is no longer relevant. )

[FlowerChild]

I know this has probably been addressed before so sorry. But I read that we did not know who Taylor's parents are but was wondering why the hyphen in her name and do all 4 Pashel/Placker children live with the grandparents and are they all brothers and sisters or cousins or what? This get so confusing.
Taylors "brothers and sisters" are all grown adults - so no, they don't live with the Plackers - although some live nearby.
We have to assume that Taylor's the bio child of ONE of the older Placker/Paschal children - we just don't know which one. Vicky and Peter have had legal custody pretty much since Taylor was born and they considered her their daughter and raised her as their daughter - she called them Mom and Dad and the the other children called her their sister. Taylor did know she was Vicky and Peter's bio grandaughter but she obviously considered them her parents. And they aren't that old - the COULD have been her parents.

Vicky is the Paschal, Peter the Placker, we can only assume they gave Taylor both names because she is the daughter of one of the kids and the kids have both Paschal and Placker as a last name (some Paschal, some Placker)- this way Taylor is a part of "both".

My Opinion

[Dr. Pennypacker]

I think POI is a witness - post murder.
Killers are 2 young males that the girls speak with at the bridge.
Killing is result of something said or done by the girls.

Common misconception for something as horrific as this is there must have something really big behind it.
Nowadays kids kill each other over trivial excuses....i.e. hurt feelings.....

[Nickelfoo]

Taylors "brothers and sisters" are all grown adults - so no, they don't live with the Plackers - although some live nearby.
We have to assume that Taylor's the bio child of ONE of the older Placker/Paschal children - we just don't know which one. Vicky and Peter have had legal custody pretty much since Taylor was born and they considered her their daughter and raised her as their daughter - she called them Mom and Dad and the the other children called her their sister. Taylor did know she was Vicky and Peter's bio grandaughter but she obviously considered them her parents. And they aren't that old - the COULD have been her parents.

Vicky is the Paschal, Peter the Placker, we can only assume they gave Taylor both names because she is the daughter of one of the kids and the kids have both Paschal and Placker as a last name (some Paschal, some Placker)- this way Taylor is a part of "both".



My Opinion

Wow, thank you for the run down of the family tree. I will save this for later reference.

[Albert18]

Then... who is the POI really? How would LE have eliminated him if he hasn't been found? And, why is the sketch still out there.


We don't know is the answer to all three questions.

Maybe they know almost exactly the time the girls were killed. And from what the witnesses told them they know the POI couldn't have done it. The info about the time of the killings and the info about the POI is coming from different sources. So LE knows the POI wasn't involved but that doesn't mean the witnesses who saw the POI know he wasn't involved. And maybe the people who did this are wondering who the heck this POI is?

You have to remember this is an odd case.

I have never seen a case where LE says Grandpa found the victims, retrieved a cell phone from one of the victims and called 911 and then later when the 911 call is played I am listening to Grandma. Remember, he went looking for the girls, not they went looking for the girls. Where did Grandma come from? No explanation, no nothing.

LE has never seemed that interested in the POI, therefore I am no longer interested in the POI.

[tapu]

I take as evidence that as the sketch is still out there, there is still interest in the POI.

[Dr. Pennypacker]

:poke:How can this murder still have so many unanswered questions. :snail:
The facts are few and what is known is quite confussing. :waitasec:

[tapu]

I think POI is a witness - post murder.
Killers are 2 young males that the girls speak with at the bridge.
Killing is result of something said or done by the girls.

Common misconception for something as horrific as this is there must have something really big behind it.
Nowadays kids kill each other over trivial excuses....i.e. hurt feelings.....



Points taken....

The kids would have to be monsters on a scale beyond even the Columbine killers in my opinion, as the school context and multiple targets would allow the latter to depersonalize what they were doing. Not so with shooting these little(r) girls point blank.

Of course, no reason to assume that only kids would be in this situation. Everything you say could be true and it still not necessarily be very young males. Certainly 18-19 yo's may be able to kill like this, and still for less motivation than the crime seems to indicate to us.

One reason I lean toward something bigger, and outside the local community, is that I think a local shooter would have been id'd already. Like, if it were kids, they'd be found out pronto, not have it be like this.

[GetSmart]

FOX23 crews experienced another unsettling situation near Taylor’s home last night.

As our crew was leaving, they saw three sheriff's deputies and a state trooper speeding down the road.

They parked in front of the house, searching the woods around the home and down the road with flashlights and patrol cars. During the search the family left the home for the night.

Deputies say the family called 911 after hearing someone sneaking around the home. Someone even says they saw a shadow outside. Deputies did not find anyone, but say they might have gotten away before they arrived.http://www.fox23.com/news/local/stor...f-8b25f149eda6


Everyone seemed to qualify this as news people snooping.
But as in an earlier post I said why does it have to be that. If you recall GPa had finished painting their little club house, they had posters & like things in there. I am saying what is to say they did not have something in that club house that did not belong to them. It is as good as any other what if..

[tapu]

"what is to say they did not have something in that club house that did not belong to them."


? wouldn't the bad guy just go to the clubhouse and take it back? I mean without executing them?

you know, it might be a failing on my part, but it's hard for me to believe that this kind of killing is done purely out of anger. too methodical. too absolutely ruthless.

[Dr. Pennypacker]

Points taken....

The kids would have to be monsters on a scale beyond even the Columbine killers in my opinion, as the school context and multiple targets would allow the latter to depersonalize what they were doing. Not so with shooting these little(r) girls point blank.

Of course, no reason to assume that only kids would be in this situation. Everything you say could be true and it still not necessarily be very young males. Certainly 18-19 yo's may be able to kill like this, and still for less motivation than the crime seems to indicate to us.

One reason I lean toward something bigger, and outside the local community, is that I think a local shooter would have been id'd already. Like, if it were kids, they'd be found out pronto, not have it be like this.

You made some good points also.

I am baffled as to why there have been no breaks in this case.
Is this just small town USA police work. I don't know what to think.

[tapu]

Well, I'm usually the last person to fault LE, but the people going on about small-town justice have a point.

There was an elderly couple murdered on a remote road near where I grew up. Someone came into their house and murdered him and slashed her; she lived. But something like 6,7, 8 years later, someone came in the same house and murdered her! And these were brutal murders, no sign of robbery.

Yet, there's never been anyone charged or even suspected that anyone knows about. Weird. Many people say it's because of small-town connections among certain family members and LE.


{aside: should I not have told this story on this thread?}

[hannahsnana]

Hmm.... I rather fancy the POI as THE shooter, but without an eyewitness to the actual crime. That is, that the POI was the shooter and was only seen driving past someone in either direction. (Oh, wait, though: hannah'snana, what do we know about his truck's position?? I think i've not caught up to that)

Tapu, I'm sorry, haven't been online for a while. So much of this is starting to blur in my mind, but at some point it was said that the POI was seen standing beside his vehicle, which was seen sitting diagonal to the road, as in a parking space (not parallel parking). Can someone help me out here with the source for this?

[frogjustfrog]

Nickelfoo and Tapu, I think you are right about the "hired gun" theory. It would just be too hard to locate the intended target when no one else was around.
Albert, I agree with FlowerChild and you that the POI is probably real. My own personal theory is that it was a person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe someone with a record, or someone who thought LE would never believe he wasn't involved, thus not coming forward. Perhaps he saw the crime taking place from a distance while driving his pickup, maybe even saw the shooter(s) before they left the scene (once again from a distance). He didn't really know what was going on until he came up on the scene right after the shootings, hence the crazy angle of his vehicle as he stopped, not believing his eyes.

This is one way I picture it in my own head:
Boys in vehicle, sitting on the bridge. Girls have reached the bridge and are walking back. Boys are upset and talking about what to do. poi drives by, goes down the road a way, parks the truck at an angle so no one can see him step out to pee. Gets back in truck, possibly turns around to go back and see the boys and leaves same direction he came.
The girls are on their way back home. Boys decide to follow and shoot. Stupid kids who are mad at something, desensitized to shootings because of hearing of so much these days. One boy REALLY mad. He is the one riding. Shoots out the window then they stop and finish the girls off. Days later calls in to report the POI as the suspect. Knows the POI was in the vicinity and that prob others saw him too. (which they did on Bryant Road but that doesnt mean he is guilty) Why does the boy pass polygraph? COLD AS ICE!!!!!!!!!
This is just a theory I have, but not the only theory. I still wonder about this mountain man who lives just past and behind Placker place.

[frogjustfrog]

I think POI is a witness - post murder.
Killers are 2 young males that the girls speak with at the bridge.
Killing is result of something said or done by the girls.

Common misconception for something as horrific as this is there must have something really big behind it.
Nowadays kids kill each other over trivial excuses....i.e. hurt feelings.....

IF we can believe first statements, the OSBI said the poi saw the girls walking just prior to their murders

[Mysterylover]

Yes, I'm debating with myself.... :roll-eyes:
But I want to counter the idea that two guns = two shooters, based solely on the belief that it is damned unlikely to find two guys who would empty guns into two little girls on a road in broad daylight.

Maybe the killer just really was that thorough that he got another gun to make sure the job was done.
Must have had nerves of steel, though, given where he was....

I think odds would be, you couldn't find 2 cold blooded killers to shoot 2 little girls at the same time on a Sunday next to the parents driveway.....unless it is teenagers.

My theory is this: The murderer shot the girls multiple times with 2 different guns to "throw LE" off their trail.....jmo

[GetSmart]

Tapu :
• The girls were walking back from where they saw whatever it was because nothing would be going down in view of the driveway. That's just where the guy(s) caught up to them.
• The person the girls knew may not have had much to do with the decision to kill them. He tells the girls to go away when they come upon the scene. It's the other guy(s) who care nothing about who the girls are and who think they need to kill them to keep from being described. (or, in that case, maybe the girls knew the id of the person but were not close to them)

But when you explained your thoughts I could see that happening.
The non killer saying "oh those are just the little neighbor girls, they'll forget about it by tomorrow."
But if told them to "shoo get home you little pia's"
The girls reply with "hey your not the boss of me"
Killer saying " you better get out of here I mean it & now"
Girls say " Not ..wait till I tell my dad, you'll be sorry "..

I mean I can really see something like that happen JMO[/quote]
----------------------

The boys theory goes right along with my pretend dialogue

[YellowDog]

FOX23 crews experienced another unsettling situation near Taylor’s home last night.

As our crew was leaving, they saw three sheriff's deputies and a state trooper speeding down the road.

They parked in front of the house, searching the woods around the home and down the road with flashlights and patrol cars. During the search the family left the home for the night.

Deputies say the family called 911 after hearing someone sneaking around the home. Someone even says they saw a shadow outside. Deputies did not find anyone, but say they might have gotten away before they arrived.http://www.fox23.com/news/local/stor...f-8b25f149eda6


Everyone seemed to qualify this as news people snooping.
But as in an earlier post I said why does it have to be that. If you recall GPa had finished painting their little club house, they had posters & like things in there. I am saying what is to say they did not have something in that club house that did not belong to them. It is as good as any other what if..

I was listening to them interview the two fathers on that link you gave and Taylor's grandfather/father made a strange comment. He said, "They couldn't hurt me any worse than they already have."

Maybe the reason they didn't release all of the 911 call was because the person making the call may have given names of people he/they thought could have done the murders. and they don't want the public to hear them.

Your thoughts about the girls having something in their club house perhaps hidden is a good thing to think about.

[frogjustfrog]

I think odds would be, you couldn't find 2 cold blooded killers to shoot 2 little girls at the same time on a Sunday next to the parents driveway.....unless it is teenagers.

My theory is this: The murderer shot the girls multiple times with 2 different guns to "throw LE" off their trail.....jmo

I'm kinda wondering though, if there were two teens, and only ONE was mad. Reason for 2 guns. They had been out shooting maybe.
Shooter asked the driver to follow the girls, then hollered at them, as they turned to face the attacker, he sprayed them both with the semi-automatic weapon. Then they stopped and he took the other gun and got out to be sure they were dead. VERY ANGRY.
I know it is hard to believe kids would do this. But have you taken a good look at kids nowadays? The anger, the darkside as they call it so often?
This is why I think maybe the driver is the one who called in the poi, so as to get LE off on that track. This could have weak links, but I have often wondered if this could have happened.

[Dr. Pennypacker]

I have not seen the full autopsy reports.
I also have not heard the full 6 minute 911 call.
Are either of these available? Links?
Isn't the local media doing any investigation into the status of this case?

Tell us something!:steamed:

[frogjustfrog]

snipped~I mean I can really see something like that happen JMO[/quote]


I can see that too! That is basically what I am describing, with the exception that THEY knew the POI was in the vicinity, so he was called in by one of THEM.

[frogjustfrog]

I have not seen the full autopsy reports.
I also have not heard the full 6 minute 911 call.
Are either of these available? Links?
Isn't the local media doing any investigation into the status of this case?

Tell us something!:steamed:

The local media in Henryetta says they cant get much information as everything is focused in Okfuskee County and that's where it is all happening.
If you look at mapquest, you could see that Henryetta is almost just as close to the crime scene as Weleetka. And it is definately a much better road to Henryetta. But since the media first called it Weleetka, everything is focused on that town.
Let me tell you... when I was a kid, from henryetta, we drove ALL OVER those parts, just to get out of town. there was nothing to do in town, but more then than now. There isnt a thearte, skating rink or bowling alley anymore. People are too "sue crazy" and alot of these kinds of establishments have closed down. So.... kds go buy beer, or pot or whatever, and go riding around and stop on bridges and congregate cuz it is out of the immediate view of cops.
I am suspecting the girls walked up on to something. Maybe a boy they went to school with and an older kid, or young adult, who had drugs. "Aaaammmm.... I'm gonna tell!"

[YellowDog]

Yes, it would be easy for the killers, while being interogated, to try to push the blame toward someone else. They could have made a pact before they were questioned about what they would say so they could make their stories match. If there are two killers, you can bet neither one is going to squeal on the other because they both are facing the same charges if caught.

Perhaps something lie this, "Hey, let's blame Navajo Joe, he's been in trouble with the law before and they'll believe us."

[GetSmart]

I am still praying that God puts such a heavy burden on someone heart to come forth. It could even be anoyn. I am leving you guys for awhile here.. We have a bad thunder & lightning..

[tapu]

Trying to think... what might help us lean more toward teenage shooters or adult ("hardened criminal") shooters.

The guns.

Does anyone know right off where info about the guns/ammo can be found?

[YellowDog]

It's one thing to squeal if you are just a bystander, but if only the killer/killers know what happened, they are NOT going to squeal on one another because they are both equally involved.

[tapu]

Perhaps something lie this, "Hey, let's blame Navajo Joe, he's been in trouble with the law before and they'll believe us."

"And then, Tom, you and me'll get away," said Huck.


(sorry, i couldn't resist)

[YellowDog]

LOL.....I figured Navajo Joe would get some remarks. I fully expected it.

[Dr. Pennypacker]

LOL you two....

[YellowDog]

Meanwhile back at the teepee...........business as usual.

[frogjustfrog]

Trying to think... what might help us lean more toward teenage shooters or adult ("hardened criminal") shooters.

The guns.

Does anyone know right off where info about the guns/ammo can be found?
You'll have to go back a few pages, and possibly on the thread before this, but there is ALOT of info about guns and amo there. including pictures.
Sorry I couldnt help more.
(sorry for all the typos on my post too. Trying to work and do this too. I'm my own boss so it's ok. =) )

[frogjustfrog]

"And then, Tom, you and me'll get away," said Huck.


(sorry, i couldn't resist)

uh huh,... this is what I am thinking. Did the poi just stop to relieve himself, later heard about the murders, and skidaddled cuz he, himself has a prior record or is on probation?

loved the huck part!

[LifeSaver]

So, another day and no news. My heart aches for these familes and how disappointed they must feel.

[Ruflossn]

Hello All~
Hi Frog. I tried to post last night and couldn't get on because of the server being to busy. Has anyone else had that problem?

Flossie

[YellowDog]

Here's kind of interesting thought. Could the POI have been out there looking for his own child? He's old enough (they said about 40) to have children up in their late teens.

If the bridge was a congregating place for kids in that area, no telling what kinds of things they could think up to do out of sight of their parents and some of them with guns.

[LifeSaver]

Its sad, this is somewhat a case that has stalled. I'm very interested in the Caylee case in Florida. What has that mother done to her little girl :(

[LifeSaver]

Here's kind of interesting thought. Could the POI have been out there looking for his own child? He's old enough (they said about 40) to have children up in their late teens.

If the bridge was a congregating place for kids in that area, no telling what kinds of things they could think up to do out of sight of their parents and some of them with guns.

You know what puzzles me, is that fact that I've never encountered any kids shooting guns off that bridge. OSBI seems to think they do.

[GetSmart]

Hello All~
Hi Frog. I tried to post last night and couldn't get on because of the server being to busy. Has anyone else had that problem?

Flossie


GetSmart Posted:
Sticky: Websleuths is moving to a new server!
Adnoid Qoute:
Websleuths is moving to a new server!
As you have probably noticed, Websleuths has become much busier recently. Just a couple months ago we often had less than 100 people reading, now we're over 400 most of the day and had a new high of 683 people yesterday. Thanks to all of you for making the site increasingly popular!

As the admin around here who handles most of the technical issues, I'm happy to announce that Websleuths - along with Tricia's other sites - will be moving to a shiny new server in the next few days. It's up and running right now and we're working on the details to transfer things over with as little interruption as possible. There is nothing you need to do - we'll put up an announcement and there may be a time during the transfer when the site will be down briefly. If all goes well the only way you will know is that the site comes up faster!
------------------------------------------------------------------

Adnoid I hope it is OK that I put this sticky here.. some folks might not be paying attention to main board & just coming here. This is an important update JMO

[frogjustfrog]

Its sad, this is somewhat a case that has stalled. I'm very interested in the Caylee case in Florida. What has that mother done to her little girl :(

Oh, this case is enough for me! I get waaaaaaaaay too emotional. So peeps, when this is over, (and we ARE gonna believe it's gonna be over and solved, right?) I will just be history to forums.

But not history to my newfound friends. :blowkiss: GS..Mary, Flossie!

[LifeSaver]

I know, I myself have made some really nice friends because of this, and I've reunited with some old ones. Lets hope this nightmare is over soon, but again I can't imagine the pain so many family and friends of the girls are feeling right now

[LifeSaver]

I'd can only pray, I never feel their pain. I'm not sure I would be strong enough to survive. I'm not certain, I could forgive the killer.Although, I'd give it my best shot

[frogjustfrog]

I'd can only pray, I never feel their pain. I'm not sure I would be strong enough to survive. I'm not certain, I could forgive the killer.Although, I'd give it my best shot

I'm finding that very hard to do also, although the word says we have to. It's especially hard when you know how many are hurting. That 911 tape really got to me! I bet whoever is supposed to listen, doesnt. =(

[Ruflossn]

GetSmart Posted:
Sticky: Websleuths is moving to a new server!
Adnoid Qoute:
Websleuths is moving to a new server!
As you have probably noticed, Websleuths has become much busier recently. Just a couple months ago we often had less than 100 people reading, now we're over 400 most of the day and had a new high of 683 people yesterday. Thanks to all of you for making the site increasingly popular!

As the admin around here who handles most of the technical issues, I'm happy to announce that Websleuths - along with Tricia's other sites - will be moving to a shiny new server in the next few days. It's up and running right now and we're working on the details to transfer things over with as little interruption as possible. There is nothing you need to do - we'll put up an announcement and there may be a time during the transfer when the site will be down briefly. If all goes well the only way you will know is that the site comes up faster!
------------------------------------------------------------------

Adnoid I hope it is OK that I put this sticky here.. some folks might not be paying attention to main board & just coming here. This is an important update JMO



Thank-you GEt Smart!!!

[frogjustfrog]

Hello All~
Hi Frog. I tried to post last night and couldn't get on because of the server being to busy. Has anyone else had that problem?

Flossie

Hey there. nice to see you. Well, thanks to Agent 99, we know what alot of the slowdown time is, that and the tremendous amount of volume of people.
Thanks 99.

[evelyn24]

Oh, this case is enough for me! I get waaaaaaaaay too emotional. So peeps, when this is over, (and we ARE gonna believe it's gonna be over and solved, right?) I will just be history to forums.

But not history to my newfound friends. :blowkiss: GS..Mary, Flossie!

I hope you don't stop contributing your ideas and thoughts to other cases on this forum once this case is solved.
:(

[frogjustfrog]

I hope you don't stop contributing your ideas and thoughts to other cases on this forum once this case is solved.
:(

Saw this posting and just had to sign back on for a minute.
Yea, Evelyn, I am a big softie. I feel other's emotions and it does get to me. Bro tells me I have to quit being that way and watch my heart. (I have heart damage) But the way I see it, the Lord knows my heart and he is gonna take good care of it!
Listen folks, I have an idea. It was once said, that if this reward money never gets used, then it goes to LE. Which LE? I would like to find this out. And I would like to see if it could be used for something else. Like maybe a nice memorial at Graham School. And maybe improvements on something the girls loved. Like maybe the playground at school, or new swings or something at a park they loved, paid for in their honor.
It's just an idea.
Laterzzzz

[GetSmart]

I'm not certain, I could forgive the killer.Although, I'd give it my best shot

Ls and others If I may get off topic for a minute.. bear with me.
When they found the POS John Couey that murdered Jessica Lunsford

I had a very hard time with this.. I was so bitter & I talked to God about it and told him I just can't forgive him, I hate him so, I just can't wrap my head around him being forgiven & being spared life in eternal hell it is just not right....
I had a dream that night & as clear as anything this is what I was told :
Child this is not your concern nor your job at this time. It is mine. There are some of my children that turned from me & turned a deaf ear to me.. those are the ones that I lift my spirit from. But that is my worry not yours. How do you think I felt when I watched them murder my own son and he asked for their forgiveness. Put in my hands & leave it there.
AND I DID... I hope this helps.. It sure did help me.

[T-Rex]

I wonder if they tried to match the bullets / casings from the crime scene to those under the bridge. (Sure hope so!)

[FlowerChild]

I have not seen the full autopsy reports.
I also have not heard the full 6 minute 911 call.
Are either of these available? Links?
Isn't the local media doing any investigation into the status of this case?

Tell us something!:steamed:
OSBI is not releasing the full 911 call(s) (may be more than one) OR the full autopsies. All we know on the autopsies is that the girls were shot in the face (some say head) and chest and each was shot multiple times with 2 guns (both guns used on both girls), they were not sexually assaulted and they are hoping to recover DNA from the killers (from the bullets perhaps?) - per a statement by the ME. We do not know what the guns were (just that one was low powered and one was higher powered) and the ear witnesses tell us the shots sounded like rapid fire from handguns - definitely not a shotgun and probably not a rifle either.

OSBI is being very stingy with information and facts in this case and there isn't much we can do until they decide to release more info.

My Opinion

[CMorrison64]

My heart just remains heavy ... waiting and waiting for something to break in this case. I don't think anything has ever bothered me so much in my life. My heart goes out to the families / friends / students / teachers everybody who knew and loved these little girls and I pray like heck that there's justice. But as time keeps going on, I feel dread and worry that it won't be solved. I hope I am very wrong.

[LifeSaver]

Ls and others If I may get off topic for a minute.. bear with me.
When they found the POS John Couey that murdered Jessica Lunsford

I had a very hard time with this.. I was so bitter & I talked to God about it and told him I just can't forgive him, I hate him so, I just can't wrap my head around him being forgiven & being spared life in eternal hell it is just not right....
I had a dream that night & as clear as anything this is what I was told :
Child this is not your concern nor your job at this time. It is mine. There are some of my children that turned from me & turned a deaf ear to me.. those are the ones that I lift my spirit from. But that is my worry not yours. How do you think I felt when I watched them murder my own son and he asked for their forgiveness. Put in my hands & leave it there.
AND I DID... I hope this helps.. It sure did help me.




Nicely spoken, How do we expect to be forgiven, if we don't have the love to forgive those who bring harm, and pain to others.

[LifeSaver]

I talked to a friend of mine who works at the Weleetka Bank of Commerce, and those familes recieved over 100,00.00 dollars from all the loving people in the US, now, doesn't that say a lot !!

[LifeSaver]

I wonder if they tried to match the bullets / casings from the crime scene to those under the bridge. (Sure hope so!)

I didn't hear LE state that they had found other bullets.

[CMorrison64]

I talked to a friend of mine who works at the Weleetka Bank of Commerce, and those familes recieved over 100,00.00 dollars from all the loving people in the US, now, doesn't that say a lot !!

That's wonderful ~ :woohoo:

[Tom'sGirl]

I talked to a friend of mine who works at the Weleetka Bank of Commerce, and those familes recieved over 100,00.00 dollars from all the loving people in the US, now, doesn't that say a lot !!
How much? Do you mean $100,000.00 or other?

[cloudajo]

You know what puzzles me, is that fact that I've never encountered any kids shooting guns off that bridge. OSBI seems to think they do.

LS, if you know, if teens/others go to that bridge to hang out, would they park their vehicles on the side of the road on/near the bridge and then walk down to the water? Is it common to see vehicles parked there, if you know?

TIA.

[tapu]

I'm still hung up on the guns/ammo for the moment, as to whether what little we know can tell us anything about the shooter; specifically, whether it's a hardened criminal type or a young male.

What about the fact that shell casings were found on the ground? Would a more experienced killer have picked those up?

[FlowerChild]

I'm still hung up on the guns/ammo for the moment, as to whether what little we know can tell us anything about the shooter; specifically, whether it's a hardened criminal type or a young male.

What about the fact that shell casings were found on the ground? Would a more experienced killer have picked those up?
Not if he's using a "disposable" gun (or guns).
It's pretty easy to buy a hot gun on the streets, use it to kill somebody and dump it. Just one of the "expenses" of doing business
If this was any sort of a "pro" those guns are long-gone...probably at the bottom of the closest body of water.

If this was "kids" the guns might still be around in "plain sight" because a minor child living at home would certainly have to explain the disappearance of one or two guns from Dad's collection - and would have taken the guns home and put them right back wherever they are kept - with Dad none the wiser. Now if Dad is pretty sharp and figures out the guns were used to kill the girls - we're right back to the bottom of the closest lake.

The way I see it - if an adult (especially a father or a pro) is involved those guns are history - it's pretty well publicized that the OSBI has bullet casings and anyone with half a brain would quietly "lose" those guns forever before they (or one of their kids) would risk going to prison.

I am hoping that there are finderprints or DNA on those casings - or on one of the bullets. Without the gun itself, those two things are the best hope we have of ID'ing the killer 100%. The killer might have been wearing gloves when he killed the girls, but chances are unless he's a real pro, he wasn't wearing gloves when he loaded the gun. Heck, those bullets could have been in the gun for months - and the killer wouldn't have been thinking about DNA or fingerprints when he loaded the gun.

Killers are time and time again proven to be stupid. They always make a mistake, talk to the wrong person, get the wrong person mad at them, leave DNA and prints, get victims DNA on them or their vehicle, get in a hurry and forget something, trust the wrong woman, or brag to somebody. I am not worried, at some point the killer(s) will slip and they'll be caught. We just have to keep looking and the OSBI has to keep digging and pushing forward. And we have to be patient - all good things take time and this isn't an obvious "the bad guy x" did it - but I am feeling good about the chances and for some reason I sense the killer(s) are feeling a noose tighten about now.

My Opinion

[YellowDog]

The people of Weleetka need to look around at their friends, neighbors and relatives and see if any of them left town around that time and have yet to return. The killer or killers may be "Livin' La Vida Loca" in Mexico by now.

[GetSmart]

Old post I know But questioning where could you get guns...


http://newsok.com/article/3098530?pg=2 (http://newsok.com/article/3098530?pg=2)

Thomas Kirby (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON), 63; Wesley George (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Wesley+George&CATEGORY=PERSON), 49; James Oleson (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=James+Oleson&CATEGORY=PERSON), 42; Dennis Shepherd (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Dennis+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; Smith Justin Beal (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Smith+Justin+Beal&CATEGORY=PERSON), 58; Joe Placker (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Joe+Placker&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; and Linda Shepherd (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Linda+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), age not given, were indicted July 24 by a federal grand jury in Oklahoma City. All of them are members or associates of the Bandidos motorcycle gang (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Bandidos+Motorcycle+Club&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION), the indictment states. They allegedly conspired to sell guns and cigarettes out of Kirby (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON)'s Oklahoma City apartment between November 2004 and June 2006, according to court papers

The Bandidos are involved in drug trafficking, prostitution, contract murder, fencing, extortion, stealing and running weapons, welfare and bank fraud, and arson. The bikers make most of their money manufacturing and selling methamphetamine. Club members and associates who are pilots smuggle drugs and guns across the border and state lines.

A NOMAD chapter takes care of Bandido security,counterintelligence and internal discipline. The chapter is made up of charter members who have been with the club for more than 5 years

[YellowDog]

How is Joe Placker related to the Weleetka Plackers?

[Fairy1]

Old post I know But questioning where could you get guns...


http://newsok.com/article/3098530?pg=2 (http://newsok.com/article/3098530?pg=2)

Thomas Kirby (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON), 63; Wesley George (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Wesley+George&CATEGORY=PERSON), 49; James Oleson (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=James+Oleson&CATEGORY=PERSON), 42; Dennis Shepherd (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Dennis+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; Smith Justin Beal (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Smith+Justin+Beal&CATEGORY=PERSON), 58; Joe Placker (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Joe+Placker&CATEGORY=PERSON), 54; and Linda Shepherd (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Linda+Shepherd&CATEGORY=PERSON), age not given, were indicted July 24 by a federal grand jury in Oklahoma City. All of them are members or associates of the Bandidos motorcycle gang (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Bandidos+Motorcycle+Club&CATEGORY=ORGANIZATION), the indictment states. They allegedly conspired to sell guns and cigarettes out of Kirby (http://newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Thomas+Kirby&CATEGORY=PERSON)'s Oklahoma City apartment between November 2004 and June 2006, according to court papers

The Bandidos are involved in drug trafficking, prostitution, contract murder, fencing, extortion, stealing and running weapons, welfare and bank fraud, and arson. The bikers make most of their money manufacturing and selling methamphetamine. Club members and associates who are pilots smuggle drugs and guns across the border and state lines.