Two Oklahoma Girls (11 & 13yo) Found Murdered #14

[FlowerChild]

The crime I was referring to earlier was the one where the girl was abducted from Texhoma, Oklahoma. That suspect is still at large.

Also, I just wanted to add, that yes, nutjobs can and do go on their killing sprees, and return back to "normal" living. BTK comes to mind, as well as a few others.
Serial Killers and Spree Killers and Serial Child Molester/Adbductors/Killers are the exception to the "nutjob" rule. This is (as far as we know), not the work of a serial killer or a spree killer or a practiced abductor. There have been no other murders with same MO, no suicide after killing family or "enemies" and no attempted or successful abductions.

It's highly unlikely these murders were the work of a Traditional Serial Killer, it just doesn't fit the MO of having complete control, privacy to work and being able to linger with the victims, take souvenirs, revisit victims and possess them after death as they couldn't in life. Serial Killers are NUTS, but they are controlled nuts, you are correct, they don't "snap" because they were born without the ability to "snap" - they don't feel anything - the murders themselves are an attempt to feel SOMETHING. They feel a need to kill, but they control that need and mask themselves in a shell of mundane, normality...they fit in and look so darn normal because they WORK at fitting in, it doesn't come naturally. They are usually severely sociopathic and they are not suicidal, they are in fact, driven to live - they don't feel guilt or pain, they only fear one thing, the loss of self control - and that's what death is ultimately.

However it COULD be the work of a Serial Spree Killer IF there are more similar murders within the next month. Usually Spree Killers must continue to kill with regularity (randomly and violently) for a reason that is only inside their head. They do "snap" and they are not capable of controlling their "snaps"... and once they start, they can't stop. They will kill again when the stimulus that causes the "snap" is repeated.That doesn't mean they are acting like nuts all the time,at least in the beginning - it's more that they are constantly feeling a pressure build and eventually they can no longer control it and must kill again for relief. Once the pressure is relieved, they can often return to "normal" - but the periods of "normal" become fewer as the relief they feel after killing no longer fufills their need for inner calm. They are often severely psychopathic - with the added dimension of a severe personlity disorder. They often end with a suicide or suicide by cop - they do feel guilt and feel they deserve to die. To them, death means a welcome relief from their inner pain - their uncontrollable urges will stop forever.

Child Molestors/Abductors/Killers want their victim, to them, killing them is a sad but necessary final step in their fantasies. A step they won't take until they are about to, or have achieved physical intimacy with the victim. They are sometimes collectors who take young 11-12-13 year old girls and boys and keep them for a long time in a secret room, or place. These men don't gun down potential victims on the side of the road without touching them - they just move on to another victim if they aren't successful. For these men it's their FANTASY and the sex that are important and necessary, the killing is a clinical necessity so they can continue to have their fantasy. To possess their victims is everything to them - that is the goal, not the killing. These man are often pedophiles or fixated on an ideal love object of a certain age or appearance. They are sexually deviant and have a rich, complex fantasy life that they are compelled to try and make a reality...and most (outside the long-term collectors) are always disappointed (and angry at the victim) that reality doesn't feel as good as the fantsy they have nurtured and built and created in their head. And so they abduct, assault (or attempt to assault) and kill, in that specific order, over and over - until they are caught. They are indeed mentally ill, and nuts, but their nuts is built-in, often from birth, they have never expereinced life any other way. They don't ever " go nuts", because their "nuts" is so much a part of them and their inner dialog that their behavior in public never changes. In fact, they often constantly require validation that they are "normal" - they seek out OTHER people like them in a desperate bid to justify what they do and how they feel. These guys just "are" nuts, like we "are" normal. :rant: (And IMO, the child molestors and collectors cannot be cured, because you can't cure something that has an organic origin inside the brain - they are what they are, just like we are heterosexual or homosexual - until we find the origin of sexual attraction in the brain and learn to analyze it and then properly manipulate it, what they have wrong with them cannot be fixed, all we can do is get better at diagnosing them before they hurt a child and for their own safety and the children's remove them from children forever.)

I just don't see this particular murder fitting any of the three scenarios above. Does it fit Thrill Killing? Maybe. It does fit Anger, Revenge, Vindication, and Payback - OH YES! This crime had passion and extreme overkill - and it was up close and personal - even beyond what Spree Killers do. This feels targeted somehow the target maybe the girls, or maybe someone in the girl's lives. The killer meant to kill Taylor and Skyla - no doubt - and that feels planned - not at all random. This wasn't someone acting out an impulse, a wild crazy fantasy, this was someone who came to kill and calmly and methodically did kill and then walked away as if it was nothing.

Just My Opinion Though - Your Mileage May Vary......

[GetSmart]

Quote By Flowerchild: "I am dead certain that NONE of the Placker-Paschal's intended any harm come to even a single hair on Taylor's head - and certainly not her little best friend. This was never supposed to happen - but when you play with fire, sometimes it gets out of control and burns people who were just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

And what I fear is that if Vicky and Peter had been home and the whole family INSIDE that house, there would have been 4 bodies, not two."
My Opinion


Flowerchild you sure put that into perspective. I agree 150%...


SeriouslySearching Thank you for answering my question..it is very scary.

[Ruflossn]

Child Molestors/Abductors/Killers want their victim, to them, killing them is a sad but necessary final step in their fantasies. A step they won't take until they are about to, or have achieved physical intimacy with the victim. They are sometimes collectors who take young 11-12-13 year old girls and boys and keep them for a long time in a secret room, or place. These men don't gun down potential victims on the side of the road without touching them - they just move on to another victim if they aren't successful. For these men it's their FANTASY and the sex that are important and necessary, the killing is a clinical necessity so they can continue to have their fantasy. To possess their victims is everything to them - that is the goal, not the killing. These man are often pedophiles or fixated on an ideal love object of a certain age or appearance. They are sexually deviant and have a rich, complex fantasy life that they are compelled to try and make a reality...and most (outside the long-term collectors) are always disappointed (and angry at the victim) that reality doesn't feel as good as the fantsy they have nurtured and built and created in their head. And so they abduct, assault (or attempt to assault) and kill, in that specific order, over and over - until they are caught. They are indeed mentally ill, and nuts, but their nuts is built-in, often from birth, they have never expereinced life any other way. They don't ever " go nuts", because their "nuts" is so much a part of them and their inner dialog that their behavior in public never changes. In fact, they often constantly require validation that they are "normal" - they seek out OTHER people like them in a desperate bid to justify what they do and how they feel. These guys just "are" nuts, like we "are" normal. :rant: (And IMO, the child molestors and collectors cannot be cured, because you can't cure something that has an organic origin inside the brain - they are what they are, just like we are heterosexual or homosexual - until we find the origin of sexual attraction in the brain and learn to analyze it and then properly manipulate it, what they have wrong with them cannot be fixed, all we can do is get better at diagnosing them before they hurt a child and for their own safety and the children's remove them from children forever.)

I just don't see this particular murder fitting any of the three scenarios above. Does it fit Thrill Killing? Maybe. It does fit Anger, Revenge, Vindication, and Payback - OH YES! This crime had passion and extreme overkill - and it was up close and personal - even beyond what Spree Killers do. This feels targeted somehow the target maybe the girls, or maybe someone in the girl's lives. The killer meant to kill Taylor and Skyla - no doubt - and that feels planned - not at all random. This wasn't someone acting out an impulse, a wild crazy fantasy, this was someone who came to kill and calmly and methodically did kill and then walked away as if it was nothing.

Just My Opinion Though - Your Mileage May Vary......[/QUOTE]

Good Morning~
Thank you for always explaining everything so clearly. I love it. :blowkiss:

This is a scenario that I have been thinking about: First of all, from what we know of the crime scene, it was very disorganized. This indicates the killer(s) were disorganized. (You can google that term if you need to. I do not want to take the space up on this thread to write everything that term entails) I believe this could have been an abduction gone wrong. I believe the perp(s) may have been on drugs, this would have been the first time they had acted on their abduction urges. When they were rebuffed by the girls, they got mad and went for overkill. Or 2nd theory: It was not the work of a first time pedophile. And when the girls rebuffed him, he shot them repeatedly because he had nothing to lose. Assuming he was a repeat offender, if he hadn't killed the girls, and they had id'ed him to LE, he was going back to jail. So, in his sick mind, why take the chance of witnesses?

I have no idea if this will turn out to be even close to what the real story will be. I just hope that at some point, we know the real story. I log on to WS everyday hoping for a break in the case. So far, it is always a disappointment. I have to believe that LE knows more than they are letting on and will someday surprise us with an arrest and eventual conviction.

Ruflossn

[FlowerChild]

I found "baby cousin Nita"

Not sure which Placker/Paschal is related to Lanita Sue Bateman AKA "Baby Cousin Nita" From Linda K Placker's Web Site
http://v4mp-b1tch.tripod.com/id14.html

but Lanita a CONVICTED MURDERER IN PRISON FOR LIFE :eek:
and the crime was Gang Related thru Nita's Boyfriend Zjaiton Wood (Life Sentence) and his brother Tremaine (Tremane) Wood (Death Sentence)
It occurred in Oklahoma City, Jan 1, 2001 - Lanita was 18 years old.

Lanita Sue Bateman AKA "Baby Cousin Nita" (BD 1/12/1982)

Murder 1st Degree (sentenced to life 6-11-03)
also guilty of robbery with a firearm, conspiracy to commit a felony
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=446204&offender_book_id=257037&imageindex=2
About The Murder
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=448920
Zjaiton Wood Lanita's Boyfriend and Co-Defendant Now Serving LWOP
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=230564&offender_book_id=122041&imageindex=3
Tremaine Wood Lanita's Co-Defendant Now On Death Row
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=271967&offender_book_id=162029&imageindex=7

If anybody can figure out how "Nita" is Linda's cousin and what Gang Affiliation the Wood Bros have/had that would be great - I have read/researched myself blind finding all of this.

The more I dig, the uglier the picture gets! :mad:
Poor Taylor

My Opinion

[CMorrison64]

I found "baby cousin Nita"

Not sure which Placker/Paschal is related to Lanita Sue Bateman AKA "Baby Cousin Nita" From Linda K Placker's Web Site
http://v4mp-b1tch.tripod.com/id14.html

but Lanita a CONVICTED MURDERER IN PRISON FOR LIFE :eek:
and the crime was Gang Related thru Nita's Boyfriend Zjaiton Wood (Life Sentence) and his brother Tremaine (Tremane) Wood (Death Sentence)
It occurred in Oklahoma City, Jan 1, 2001 - Lanita was 18 years old.

Lanita Sue Bateman AKA "Baby Cousin Nita" (BD 1/12/1982)

Murder 1st Degree (sentenced to life 6-11-03)
also guilty of robbery with a firearm, conspiracy to commit a felony
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=446204&offender_book_id=257037&imageindex=2
About The Murder
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=448920
Zjaiton Wood Lanita's Boyfriend and Co-Defendant Now Serving LWOP
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=230564&offender_book_id=122041&imageindex=3
Tremaine Wood Lanita's Co-Defendant Now On Death Row
http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=271967&offender_book_id=162029&imageindex=7

If anybody can figure out how "Nita" is Linda's cousin and what Gang Affiliation the Wood Bros have/had that would be great - I have read/researched myself blind finding all of this.

The more I dig, the uglier the picture gets! :mad:
Poor Taylor

My Opinion


EIGHTEEN YEARS OLD and her life is over, how very sad.

[GetSmart]

This is just sickening
I thought I would put Tony's info here too..This guy is my age !!

80-1439OKLABurglary - Second Degree / Afcf10/03/198015Y 0M 0D Incarceration10/03/198012/11/199480-1972OKLABurglary - Second Degree / Afcf10/03/198015Y 0M 0D Incarceration10/03/198012/11/199493-5956OKLADistribution Of Cds (Cocaine) Afcf04/15/199415Y 0M 0D Incarceration04/29/199412/21/200093-5957OKLADistribution Of Cds (Methamphetamine) Afcf04/15/199415Y 0M 0D Incarceration04/29/199412/21/200094-39OKLARobbery With A Dangerous Weapon Afcf04/15/199415Y 0M 0D Incarceration04/29/199412/15/200094-14MCCLBurglary Second Degree06/21/19945Y 0M 0D Incarceration06/21/199402/03/199794-14MCCLBurglary 2nd Degree06/21/19945Y 0M 0D Incarceration06/21/199402/03/199795-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/19955Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200012/30/200295-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/199515Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200005/20/200895-3181OKLAMaint Place Where Cds Is Kept08/17/199515Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200005/20/200895-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/19955Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200012/30/200295-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/19955Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200012/30/200295-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/19955Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200012/30/200295-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/19955Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200012/30/200295-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/199515Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200005/20/200895-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/199515Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200005/20/200895-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/199515Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200005/20/200895-3181OKLAConspiracy To Dist Cds08/17/199515Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200005/20/200895-3181OKLADist Of Cds08/17/199515Y 0M 0D Incarceration12/15/200005/20/20081995-3181TULSDist Of Cds/Poss W/Intent2.2 YParole03/09/200605/19/20081995-3181TULSConsp/Att/Endeavor To Commit Drug Crime2.2 YParole03/09/200605/19/20081995-3181TULSMaint Place For Keeping/Selling Cds2.2 YParole03/09/200605/19/2008

METH..

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/pag... (http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/pag...)


Once again FlowserChild you have out done yourself !! I will play with it for awhile.. Hubby is gone till 3pm

[Trino]

It's interesting that many Websleuth posters and also Topix Weleetka posters are coming to the same conclusion, that this is somehow related to the family, although not necessarily the parents. How, then, can LE not have the same feeling about this case? Their response has IMO been pathetic. They appear to not want the public's help and would rather get the perks of solving this case on their own. IMO (again) they are going about this the wrong way.

[GetSmart]

FlowerChild'slink
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=448920 brought up this info..

I am posting it because of the names here. It might be eaiser to research if we have all names up front. More at link to much to post

Appellant Tremane Wood and three others were involved in and charged with the murder of Ronnie Wipf and the robbery of Arnold Kleinsasser. Clarity requires us to set forth the relationship between these defendants and the outcome of their cases. In addition to Tremane Wood, the defendants include Tremane’s older brother Zjaiton Wood, Zjaiton’s girlfriend Lanita Bateman, and the mother of one of Tremane’s sons,
Brandy Warden. 3 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=448920#marker1fn3) Brandy Warden entered into a plea agreement, cooperated with the State and testified against her co-defendants. She pled guilty to Accessory After the Fact and Conspiracy. 4 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=448920#marker1fn4)
Zjaiton and Lanita were each found guilty in separate trials of felony murder, robbery with firearms, and conspiracy. 5 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=448920#marker1fn5)

The Story of what happen

¶3 On New Years Eve 2001, Ronnie Wipf and Arnold Kleinsasser went to the Bricktown Brewery in Oklahoma City where Zjaiton, Tremane, Lanita and Brandy were celebrating. Near closing time, Wipf and Kleinsasser met Lanita and Brandy believing they were two ordinary girls celebrating the new year together. Lanita and Brandy agreed to accompany Wipf and Kleinsasser to a motel on the pretext of continuing to celebrate the new year. Brandy, Lanita, Tremane, and Zjaiton then made a plan whereby the women would pretend to be prostitutes and the brothers Wood would arrive at the motel later and rob Wipf and Kleinsasser.

¶4 Once in their room at a Ramada Inn, Lanita made a telephone call to Zjaiton to let him know where they were, ending her conversation by saying, “Mom, I love you” so the victims would not be suspicious. The call to “Mom” was followed by some general conversation among the four which included a discussion of what each did for a living. Lanita told Kleinsasser that “this” is what she did and he realized that she meant she earned her living by having sex with men. That revelation was followed by a negotiation whereby the two women agreed to have sex with Wipf and Kleinsasser for $210.00. Since neither man had that much money, Brandy drove Kleinsasser to a nearby ATM. He gave her the money he withdrew and they returned to the room.
¶5 Back at the motel, the women went into the bathroom together, and shortly after, someone pounded on the door and called out, “Brandy, are you in there? Brandy, are you ready to go home?” Wipf refused to open the door and urgently told Kleinsasser to call the police. Before he could reach the phone, Lanita picked it up and pretended to call the police. Since it was now clear that the women were not going to have sex with them, Wipf demanded the return of their money. After a brief period of pandemonium in the room, Wipf opened the door and the women ran out. Recognizing a white car as the one Zjaiton and Tremane were driving, they got in and waited. Meanwhile, two masked men rushed into the motel room, a larger man, subsequently identified as Zjaiton Wood, holding a gun and a smaller man, subsequently identified as Tremane Wood, brandishing a knife.6 (http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?citeid=448920#marker1fn6) Zjaiton pointed the gun at Kleinsasser’s head and demanded money. Kleinsasser gave him the rest of the money in his wallet. Zjaiton then joined Tremane in his attack on Wipf. As the three struggled, Kleinsasser heard one of the intruders say, “Just shoot the bastard” and then a gunshot. Tremane then turned his attention to Kleinsasser, demanding more money. Kleinsasser showed him his empty wallet, and Tremane hit him on the head with the knife. Tremane rejoined the struggle with Wipf and the fight moved into the bedroom area. Kleinsasser could see Wipf was bleeding and knew that he was seriously injured. While the two intruders struggled with Wipf, Kleinsasser escaped and sought help from the motel office. Before anyone could unlock the office door and help him, however, Kleinsasser fled to a nearby apartment complex to hide. From his vantage point there, he watched the motel and saw a white car leave the parking lot. He saw people come and go throughout the night, but, with no sense of whom they were, remained in hiding. It was 6:00 a.m. before he returned to the scene of the attack and learned of Wipf’s death from a police detective.


Prior to going to the Bricktown Brewery, Zjaiton and Tremane robbed a local pizza restaurant and attacked the owner, wearing the masks and gloves they had just purchased and using the gun and knife that they later used in the robbery-murder at the Ramada Inn. According to the restaurant owner, the smaller man had the knife and the larger man had the gun.

[CMorrison64]

I'm not one to pass judgement BUT ... with a family tree like these 2 families seem to have, it would almost seem like it is some kind of revenge killing going on ... drugs, murder ... God I'd hate to find out that someone could hate enough to murder 2 innocent children, makes me sick to my stomach.:mad:

[Claycat]

Yep, Payback!

:(

[GetSmart]

It is good to be back !!What I found today was the basic gang stuff. The above mentioned are involved with the 107 hoover which is pretty big in OLK.. The tattoos are all gang related, the tears..the tombstombs, & 107 Hoover tats are all related. Placker inmates also have gang tats.. I have convinced myself this is related.

[GetSmart]

Roy on topix posted this link..This guy explains it pretty well


http://youtube.com/watch?v=JM6TR-zpwsQ&feature=related

[Claycat]

GetSmart, there are two additional videos. The man that made the videos says he got most of his information from Websleuths!

Here are the links for all three:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM6TR-zpwsQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKK4iLRlikM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SfT208-w3U&feature=related

[Victor]

It's interesting that many Websleuth posters and also Topix Weleetka posters are coming to the same conclusion, that this is somehow related to the family, although not necessarily the parents. How, then, can LE not have the same feeling about this case? Their response has IMO been pathetic. They appear to not want the public's help and would rather get the perks of solving this case on their own. IMO (again) they are going about this the wrong way.
Yeah, Trino, I totally agree that LE is *accidently* keeping these murderers running free in our society.

They are protecting them from capture by keeping the types of guns they used COMPLETELY SECRET.

In the meantime, these psychos have probably already killed MORE innocent people. And they'll most assuredly kill other children.

There were 2 different caliber of guns used to murder these little girls. What kind of guns were they? They won't tell you! That police spokeswoman at the press conference the other day said it right, "Someone out there knows something."

Yes, probably several people who unwittingly know the murderers are aware they own these 2 murder weapons. But since police are keeping their specific gun sizes TOTALLY SECRET, these acquaintances don't think to turn them in!

That's a Bozo no-no! :devil:


PUBLIC: The best way to get the cops to act on cases like this is to contact the MEDIA. They put the most pressure on law enforcement which will result in real action.

WRITE A LETTER TO THE EDITOR NOW! Here's a link to one of the biggest Oklahoma web news sites, NewsOK.com (the 'Letters to the Editor' section. Scroll all the way to the bottom!);
http://newsok.com/more/articles/?rss=/rss/editviews.xml?id=1045

[GetSmart]

Wednesday, October 22, 2003

This is totally different case than the motel murder
Zjaiton Tyrone Wood, who is being held on charges he killed a Montana teenager, said in a letter to defense attorneys and prosecutors that he killed Andrew. The letter contained information that had already been carried in media accounts of the crime.

http://www.clintondailynews.com/cgi-bin/newspost/extras/search.cgi?category=2&keyword=jurors&page=5

Compiled By Luke Engan
CNHI News Service
http://www.cnhinewsservice.com/national/index.php?mode=view&id=5972

OKLAHOMA CITY - Zjaiton Wood heaved a water pitcher across a courtroom, grazing a prosecutor's head.
Deputies were quick to punch a remote control button that delivered an electrical shock to Wood's leg.
Nearly a dozen officers surrounded the murder defendant, who sat lashed to a chair. Wood had tried suicide, threatened the safety of other people and started fights in jail.
So deputies behind Wood stood poised to activate the shocking device, and a metal brace bound the Oklahoma City man’s leg to prevent him from running, said Kelly Marshall, public information officer for the Oklahoma County sheriff.
Judge Ray Elliot sentenced Wood to life in prison without parole for fatally stabbing a 19-year-old in a motel room. Wood told the judge they would meet in hell.
The purpose of me putting this here IS... these are the people that this family is in bed with..

[GetSmart]

You know I have been wanting to compile a list of statments by LE that includes these words...Sorry we can not release that information at this time...:furious::furious::furious:

[Tom'sGirl]

You know I have been wanting to compile a list of statments by LE that includes these words...Sorry we can not release that information at this time...:furious::furious::furious:
That's a common reply by LE in most cases.

In the Lauterbach/Laurean case they answered "we know the answer/s to this question/s, but we aren't releasing that info. at this time.

[FlowerChild]

I just put up a thread which includes all the criminal history I can locate on Family Members Paschal, Placker and Whitaker

Each entry is referenced with supporting links and familial relationship if necessary

FYI Some of the Paschals are easily confused. It seems Vicky, Tony and Nells Father Carl Paschal (wife Ruby) has a brother in Oklahoma - A Joel Paschal (wife Lorene) - Joel has 6 children - Jimmy Carl (54), Troy Joel, (46), Cecil Lee (58), Patrcia (46), Esther (52) and John Eugene (44)

Check out the thread and please feel free to add anything additional you find
Criminal Records- The Families

[Claycat]

Look at #8596 at this link! It talks about clown tattoos and that Zjalton Wood you all were just talking about. The person referred to PGW's talk in the psychic thread about the clown in the guest books and how creepy that was. Evidently this Wood has a clown tattoo. Anyway, it is a curious post.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/weleetka-ok/TOJFJV92HAR4RS395/p381#lastPost

I remember noting that it was odd that one of the convict records I found had a clown tattoo. This is getting bizarre. I'm going to see if I can remember who else had a clown tattoo.


Here it is. I had posted this link to a Dillon Harris from Okfuskee County who had been in prison for assault with dangerous weapons. Look at the list of tattoos! Bingo! Clown face!

http://docapp065p.doc.state.ok.us/servlet/page?_pageid=394&_dad=portal30&_schema=PORTAL30&doc_num=512524&offender_book_id=302018

[Busylady]

Really hate to throw a monkey wrench into the family tree dynamics. When this originally started there was an article and Joe Mosher said his sister was the mother to Taylor. Now there is a second article confirming that.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080727_12_A1_hWELEE443106

Mosher said the 911 call was made by his sister, Vicky Placker, Taylor's mother.

So this goes back to my original family tree that Vicky maiden name is Mosher, she married a Paschal had children, then married Placker. Also Moshers wifes name is Nelda Jo Dishman.

This has been driving me bonkers from day one, but couldnt find a second source to confirm it.

[FlowerChild]

Really hate to throw a monkey wrench into the family tree dynamics. When this originally started there was an article and Joe Mosher said his sister was the mother to Taylor. Now there is a second article confirming that.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080727_12_A1_hWELEE443106

Mosher said the 911 call was made by his sister, Vicky Placker, Taylor's mother.

So this goes back to my original family tree that Vicky maiden name is Mosher, she married a Paschal had children, then married Placker. Also Moshers wifes name is Nelda Jo Dishman.

This has been driving me bonkers from day one, but couldnt find a second source to confirm it.
Taylor's Obit said Ruby and Carl Paschal were Taylor's Grandparents and Vicky and Tony (for sure) are their kids and both using Paschal name.

I can't even find a Nelda Jo Dishman existing in the USA anywhere, much less in OK - I did find a Nell Dishman with these relatives in Talala,OK
Harvey N Dishman
Neil N Dishman
Terry A Dishman

I think it's MORE likely Nell is a Paschal and is divorced from Dishman - Especially since I can find NO children for Joe (William L) Mosher at all.

The only OTHER way this works is if Ruby Paschal (Vicky and Tony's Mom) was married to a Mosher before Carl and Joe (Wm L) Mosher is her son from that marriage. If she was (Ruby) married to a Mosher previous to Carl I am not locating it in any of my resources.

Every Family Tree research card I find shows Vicky clearly as the daughter of Ruby and Carl Paschal and she has had only TWO names on file since birth - Palscker and Paschal. No Dishman anywhere.

Where did the Nelda Jo Dishman as Joe's wife info come from?

My Opinion

[Claycat]

From this link:

http://blogs.king5.com/archives/2008/05/insane-clown-po.html

"I first heard of the band "Insane Clown Posse" several years ago. Until recently, I didn't even know they were still making music, let alone that they had a large following of hardcore fans called, "Juggalos."

Police say some of them have formed small gang-like groups and are causing trouble."


Insane Clown Posse gangs: In a Maine high school - a group called the "Carnival Killers"


Look at this old post on Topix from January 22, 2006. It is the first post!

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/colorado-springs-co/T146FBKMHRETIDRMO

The woman's daughter was abducted, drugged, and raped by an Insane Clown Posse gang in Colorado.


Discussion about ICP tattoos on parolee.

http://www.knowgangs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251


OMG! Do you remember reading about the shells that had been bunched up at the crime scene like someone was trying to gather them up?

Look at this last article! "Bessemer meets to discuss gangs"

http://www.juggalonews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=651

In a tone of frustration, Tony Rodriguez said he reported a shooting recently in his neighborhood, but responding officers never stopped their car.

"They just looked out of their car and left," he said. "The people who did their shooting came back later and picked up their shell casings."

[Busylady]

In Re the marriage of Nelda Jo Dishman and WILLIAM LEWIS MOSHER
they were married in 2001.
http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=244942&db=Cleveland

Two articles now clearly state that Vicky Placker is Joe Moshers sister.

Taylor's Obit said Ruby and Carl Paschal were Taylor's Grandparents and Vicky and Tony (for sure) are their kids and both using Paschal name.

I can't even find a Nelda Jo Dishman existing in the USA anywhere, much less in OK - I did find a Nell Dishman with these relatives in Talala,OK
Harvey N Dishman
Neil N Dishman
Terry A Dishman

I think it's MORE likely Nell is a Paschal and is divorced from Dishman - Especially since I can find NO children for Joe (William L) Mosher at all.

The only OTHER way this works is if Ruby Paschal (Vicky and Tony's Mom) was married to a Mosher before Carl and Joe (Wm L) Mosher is her son from that marriage. If she was (Ruby) married to a Mosher previous to Carl I am not locating it in any of my resources.

Every Family Tree research card I find shows Vicky clearly as the daughter of Ruby and Carl Paschal and she has had only TWO names on file since birth - Palscker and Paschal. No Dishman anywhere.

Where did the Nelda Jo Dishman as Joe's wife info come from?

My Opinion

[GetSmart]

http://www.supertattoodesigns.com/gang-tattoos/ (http://www.supertattoodesigns.com/gang-tattoos/)

Their gang tattoos are used to represent their colors (blue and gray) and the number 13. The thirteenth letter of the alphabet is M which represents the Mexican Mafia. The number thirteen may be designed using Arabic or Roman numerals or sometimes both. For example, 13, XIII or X3. The Mexican Mafia also makes use of a double M or a black hand in their tattoo designs.


James A Placker
National Crime Information Center (NCIC)
Body Marks


SC BACK: NCIC X3 =SC R KNEE: NCIC National Crime Information Center (NCIC)TAT BACK: NCIC LIL CARZZYTAT L ARM: NCIC FLAMING DICE "PLAYBOY"TAT R SHLD: NCIC TRIBAL ART

---------------------------
CHRISTOPHER R PLACKER


CONV: LFT KNEE; TATTOSS "LIL ****" RTTHIGH "WYLIE COYOTE" LFT SHLD

[GetSmart]

It seems no matter what last name is associated with this family it comes up in a court of law.. be it meth, gang related or and number of other felonies. OSBI has alot of prospects.. how can they honestly say they have cleared family members...there are just too many and more that seem to come out of the wood work. Not to mention it was never made public who all lived at that house. I feel so bad for Skyla's mom..

[Claycat]

I think LE should check out any members of Insane Clown Posse gangs in the area. I thought it was kind of a cult following thing at first. Now it looks as if there are serious gang connections with this ICP thing, too!

I just keep thinking about the fact that some gang members in another place had returned to pick up the shell casings, and LE found the casings in a pile like someone was trying to pick them up at the Weleetka crime scene.

[GetSmart]

I really think it is all related, and the article you posted fits right in. So who all do you think was home that day?

[Ruflossn]

I think LE should check out any members of Insane Clown Posse gangs in the area. I thought it was kind of a cult following thing at first. Now it looks as if there are serious gang connections with this ICP thing, too!

I just keep thinking about the fact that some gang members in another place had returned to pick up the shell casings, and LE found the casings in a pile like someone was trying to pick them up at the Weleetka crime scene.

Good Morning CC!

When I was reading about this case, early on. I saw for the first time ever a mention about the Insane Clown Posse. I researched them. They are very strange. (imo) Scared me.........................

[Ruflossn]

Hi GetSmart~

Didn't see you on here, originally.
Good Morning~

[GetSmart]

Hi Flossie
This whole gang thing has got me creeped out. There is something to it..

[Ruflossn]

Well, today started like any other. I come to the computer and hope to find some good news. Again, nothing!!!! When is this case going to "open up". I still believe that it can and will be solved. Maybe I am an eternal optimist???????????????

There are so many twists and turns that it makes it difficult to follow all the info.

[GetSmart]

Well if anything maybe the press or others scanning WS including LE will pick up the pace or LE will will try to debunk alluded findings.. We are not dumb.

[Ruflossn]

Well if anything maybe the press or others scanning WS including LE will pick up the pace or LE will will try to debunk alluded findings.. We are not dumb.

I totally agree.

[tapu]

Just a teeny tiny point... and it may have been mentioned but I haven't run into it:

The relative locations of the bodies might be taken to indicate that Taylor was in the lead for whatever confrontation took place between the girls and the shooter in the road.

[GetSmart]

I think Taylor would have done just that..with all the rif raf in her life she probably would have been protective.

I still want to know who all lived there & who was there that fateful day.

[Mysterylover]

Hi Flossie

This whole gang thing has got me creeped out. There is something to it.....

GetSmart, Does any of the family members have gang tatoo's? If the answer is yes:
Did "they" live at the P's or visit the P's that Sunday?....jmo

[GetSmart]

GetSmart, Does any of the family members have gang tatoo's? If the answer is yes:
Did "they" live at the P's or visit the P's that Sunday?....jmo

Yes they did.. See Family History That Fc compiled on front page of this thread. That is why I am so intrested in who really lived there.
This is just a tiny sample
http://www.supertattoodesigns.com/gang-tattoos/ (http://www.supertattoodesigns.com/gang-tattoos/)

Their gang tattoos are used to represent their colors (blue and gray) and the number 13. The thirteenth letter of the alphabet is M which represents the Mexican Mafia. The number thirteen may be designed using Arabic or Roman numerals or sometimes both. For example, 13, XIII or X3. The Mexican Mafia also makes use of a double M or a black hand in their tattoo designs.

James A Placker
National Crime Information Center (NCIC)
Body Marks


SC BACK: NCIC X3 =SC R KNEE: NCIC National Crime Information Center (NCIC)TAT BACK: NCIC LIL CARZZYTAT L ARM: NCIC FLAMING DICE "PLAYBOY"TAT R SHLD: NCIC TRIBAL ART

---------------------------
CHRISTOPHER R PLACKER


CONV: LFT KNEE; TATTOSS "LIL ****" RTTHIGH "WYLIE COYOTE" LFT SHLD

[little726]

Since reading everyones post about the gangs, it is beginning to make make me ill! I pray to God nothing like this is going on in this small town.

[GetSmart]

If you go to the front page of this thread I posted a few links together,I was so surprised about the tattoos & what they mean. My son has tattoos & so do some of my friends so I am not saying everyone has an affilation but the tell ones are related simply because it is a major no no to tat yourself as in a wanna-be & not be in the gang. But there are other signs too.

[Maggie22]

These are creepy! Can anyone comment on them? Maggie
http://www.ratemyink.com/?action=ssp&pid=54057 (http://www.ratemyink.com/?action=ssp&pid=54057) http://www.checkoutmyink.com/tag/insane-clown-posse

[GetSmart]

Tulsa World (http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=20080727_12_A1 _hWELEE443106)Jul 27, 2008 ... The Whitakers' sense of frustration is shared by the Placker family, which is now in the process of moving because "they're afraid to live ...
www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=20080727_12_A1 _hWELEE443106 -
He said he and his wife, Rose Whitaker, have asked the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation "plenty of questions, but there's been no answers they can give us."

"They haven't told us anything new since the day it happened," he said.

"The only thing we honestly know is our daughter was killed and she was with her friend when it happened. And they were shot multiple times."

Whitaker said his family is becoming increasingly frustrated by the investigation and the fact that no suspects have been arrested seven weeks after the slayings.

"We want them off the streets before it happens to other people's children," Whitaker said.

The Whitakers' sense of frustration is shared by the Placker family, which is now in the process of moving because "they're afraid to live there and they can't drive that road anymore," according to Taylor's uncle, Joe Mosher.

[Claycat]

These are creepy! Can anyone comment on them? Maggie
http://www.ratemyink.com/?action=ssp&pid=54057 http://www.checkoutmyink.com/tag/insane-clown-posse

Maggie, they are finding a lot of clown tattoos on parolees and prison inmates and gang members. Devotees of ICP, Insane Clown Posse, have been making gangs of their own and causing trouble. Some of them have committed very violent crimes. There are quite a few devotees of ICP in Oklahoma. It's just another thing we have been looking at.

I agree, it is creepy! Remember the clown doll in Poltergeist. To me, that was one of the scariest things about that movie. Remember the clown in Stephen King's IT. Sometimes clowns can be very frightening.

[Maggie22]

I have been following WS and this story for some time now, perhaps because I live in Broken Arrow just about 70 miles from the murder scene. I was looking at ICP tattoos and Tulsa area tattoo shops when I came across those. I wondered what the special message that each one sent was.

They are creepy but not nearly as creepy as the photos of Buttons the Clown in the girls’ books. I wonder if anyone has asked Buttons if she put the photos up on their pages. I have a strong feeling that the answer would be no. I think it might possibly be a message to the families. Under the circumstances why would a photo of a clown that they don’t know put a smile on their hearts? I hope we don’t learn that this was gang/drug related and that the girls were somehow involved, but with their families it would not surprise me. MHO, of course. Maggie

[GetSmart]

Maggie22
I think it might possibly be a message to the families. Under the circumstances why would a photo of a clown that they don’t know put a smile on their hearts? I hope we don’t learn that this was gang/drug related and that the girls were somehow involved, but with their families it would not surprise me. MHO, of course. Maggie[/quote]


Oh Maggie 22 how could we find out.. Can someone call Buttons & ask?

[YellowDog]

I hate to be the one to say this, but if the Plackers are moving, they must be scared for their own safety. I keep going back to what Peter said, "They can't hurt me anymore than they already have." If this is a drug or gang related vendetta thing, I can't help but believe that Taylor's parents are involved in some way. To execute two innocent children, there has to be a direct connection. They may have had someone after them previously and that could be the reason they moved to such an obscure location in the first place. This may be connected to something back in Kansas and it took this long for the shooters to find them.

[Maggie22]

Button’s show is a ministry. If she were to add a message to the books, it seems to me that it would be a religious one. “In God’s loving arms now” or “ an angel with God”. The message spooked me more than the photo. However, the photo is professionally done and I did not find it on the web, so if it did not come from Buttons, then where did it come from.

Someone could email Buttons. Who is the most diplomatic and sneaky among us?

Other questions that I have are concerning the cell phone that belonged to Taylor. Did her grandfather remove it from the body? If he did why did he not call 911? Could he have been looking for something else on the child?

He apparently called Vicky who called 911. I would have called 911 and then Vicky. The child who told Vicky, “… thinks they’re dead” must have been with the grandfather to know that. Who is he or she? Did the call from the grandfather come before or after the child told Vicky that they were dead? Apparently she did not know before the child told her. He/she had to run from the site to the house. What was grandfather doing during that time? Then there was the six minute phone call to 911.

Something I read said that Vicky ran to the site. Did the grandfather ever call her?

If he arrived on the scene at 5:20 there were about ten minutes between when he found the bodies and when the call was made. Is 5:20 the right time? I think ten minutes would be a whale of a long time given the circumstances.

I heard the grandmother say. “Run”…”Run” and if she did then perhaps she thought the child might be in danger, too. My speakers are not that good, just the ones that came with the computer. Maybe she did say “What”.

If Taylor were making a delivery (I sure hope not) it would not surprise me because it is the sort of life that most of her family members had and/or have. Kids become accustomed to the kind of life that they have in a family and think it is normal. It something happened after the delivery she is the one who would be closer to the angry customer (s). She is older and more experienced and perhaps knew them. If that is the case, the kids deserve our sympathy for having such an unfortunate family. Maggie

[GetSmart]

(Maggie)
Button’s show is a ministry. If she were to add a message to the books, it seems to me that it would be a religious one.
Good Point

YellowDog: I hate to be the one to say this, but if the Plackers are moving, they must be scared for their own safety

You are probably right. I would even say witness protection but that is suppose to be done undercover so I don't think they would be publish it in the paper unless Uncle Joe don't know no better..

FYI
Side note re Gang Tattoo's I forgot to mention Mask's , Dots like 3 dots that would form a triangle ect & Tear drops are also coded NCIC which again family members have..it is recorded on the doc site.

[YellowDog]

I have a feeling this thing is going to bust wide open and be even bigger than any of us can imagine. Isn't the FBI working on this now with OSBI?

[FlowerChild]

I hate to be the one to say this, but if the Plackers are moving, they must be scared for their own safety. I keep going back to what Peter said, "They can't hurt me anymore than they already have." If this is a drug or gang related vendetta thing, I can't help but believe that Taylor's parents are involved in some way. To execute two innocent children, there has to be a direct connection. They may have had someone after them previously and that could be the reason they moved to such an obscure location in the first place. This may be connected to something back in Kansas and it took this long for the shooters to find them.
The Plackers moved from OKC, they have never lived in KS
Skyla's Family (Whitakers) moved from Kansas

If somebody is after the Plackers they're in OK

My Opinion

[YellowDog]

The Plackers moved from OKC, they have never lived in KS
Skyla's Family (Whitakers) moved from Kansas

If somebody is after the Plackers they're in OK

My Opinion


Sorry, you are correct.

[Maggie22]

I hate to be the one to say this, but if the Plackers are moving, they must be scared for their own safety. I keep going back to what Peter said, "They can't hurt me anymore than they already have." If this is a drug or gang related vendetta thing, I can't help but believe that Taylor's parents are involved in some way. To execute two innocent children, there has to be a direct connection. They may have had someone after them previously and that could be the reason they moved to such an obscure location in the first place. This may be connected to something back in Kansas and it took this long for the shooters to find them.

Or something that was going on since the move. I wonder why the grandparents were not at home. Perhaps they did not want to be there if there were to be trouble but never considered the girls being in danger. But they must have felt a fear (when they got home) for the girls to react the way they did. Most of the kids who are that age can wander a mile from home without the parents becoming too alarmed. I suspect the grandparents knew about the dealings going on at the bridge whether the girls were involved or not. In a town of less than a 1000 it is hard not to know what everyone's doing. Maggie

[FlowerChild]

I think Taylor would have done just that..with all the rif raf in her life she probably would have been protective.

I still want to know who all lived there & who was there that fateful day.
I can't imagine ALL the Plackers in Weleetka live together - that would put Linda, Christopher, Touia, their son, Taylor, Peter and Vicky ALL in that house - where would there be room for a sleepover with Skyla?

I think the neighbors said it was just Peter, Vicky and Taylor who lived there, but I can imagine they had the others over a lot.

Vicky and Peter have only two kids with children- Jessie and Christopher. I believe the obit said Jessie and his wife KK live in Shawnee so Christopher (and wife Touia) would be the only one living in Weleetka with a child (Linda also lives there, but she has no children).
Peter and Vicky were out somewhere before they arrived home shortly after 5PM - maybe they had gone to pick up the child in Weleetka? I think the child was obviously WITH Vicky and Peter and not left at home while they went out.

I can see Peter taking the child when he went walking to get Taylor and Skyla (a sort of "come-on Jr, lets go get Taylor" thing) - he obviously did NOT expect to find them dead. I think Peter called Vicky first so she could come and get the child from him. Peter didn't want the child to see any more and be exposed to any more but he knew he needed to stay at the scene (and meet Skyla's Mother) so he asked Vicky to come get the child and take him back to the house.

I do not believe the call took 10 minutes to place, I think it was more immediate but due to confusion on directions, jurisdictions etc the call wasn't LOGGED at the Sheriff's Dept until 5:41PM. And I think BOTH Peter and Vicky called 911 - we just heard Vicky's call (or her part of the call). I think the OTHER call has information about the crime scene OSBI doesn't want the public to have.

My Opinion

[GetSmart]

Scanned Newspaper article re: Cross Tampering
Thought I would put a link here to an image scanned in regards to the cross being tampered with. A poster on another forum scanned it.

Thanks way2concerned for your scan, http://tinypic.com/1r4zyown


I was just thinking about this... We never saw the cross, or what was written on it correct. Didn't they "tell us"

Apparently, gang related graffiti and vandalism continues to be a problem.



http://www.speedofcreativity.org/2008/01/14/gang-signed-vandalism-at-my-oklahoma-city-parking-garage-last-night/

[Tom'sGirl]

Scanned Newspaper article re: Cross Tampering
Thought I would put a link here to an image scanned in regards to the cross being tampered with. A poster on another forum scanned it.

Thanks way2concerned for your scan, http://tinypic.com/1r4zyown

W2C is XXXXX here at WS. She hasn't been around here much lately.

[GetSmart]

TG can you edit your post as to not give idenity away she didn't want that out..

[Tom'sGirl]

TG can you edit your post as to not give idenity away she didn't want that out..
She had posted that on her profile page when everyone was discussing who they were over at TOPIX.....................I didn't dilvulge anything private GS!

[GetSmart]

Ok sorry I wasn't meaning to be bossy but isn't profile page just for members.. I just know she had said not to tell one time .

[Tom'sGirl]

Ok sorry I wasn't meaning to be bossy but isn't profile page just for members.. I just know she had said not to tell one time .
I didn't for a moment think you were trying to be bossy GS, not a moment.

I too have PM'd with her, however, she has not deleted anyting from her Public page since joining.

[GetSmart]

But the public can not see profile pages. I just logged out & it wont let me view anyones profile..

[Tom'sGirl]

But the public can not see profile pages. I just logged out & it wont let me view anyones profile..
To make you happy I have edited my post :), however, many here are members that post over at TOPIX! The less one reveals about themselves on the Internet, the better.

[Claycat]

Tom's Girl saved me when I posted my photobucket link on the internet and hadn't marked my account as private. She let me know what I had done, and I fixed it immediately. I'm still very grateful!

Thanks TG! :)

[Tom'sGirl]

Tom's Girl saved me when I posted my photobucket link on the internet and hadn't marked my account as private. She let me know what I had done, and I fixed it immediately. I'm still very grateful!

Thanks TG! :)
You're more than welcome girl!

[GetSmart]

You know not to get off topic but I never thought about that.. is that for like tiny url & photo bucket?



Your are sweet TG Happy Happy LOL. :blowkiss:

[ArizonaGiGi]

I just finished watching a 1993 movie titled The Young Americans. It takes place in London, where an American high level drug runner recruits young innocent people to do his dirty work. That way they don't have police records. When he is finished with them, before they can "talk" he has them killed, 1 shot to the head 5 shots to the body. That's his signature. :eek:

[YellowDog]

Or something that was going on since the move. I wonder why the grandparents were not at home. Perhaps they did not want to be there if there were to be trouble but never considered the girls being in danger. But they must have felt a fear (when they got home) for the girls to react the way they did. Most of the kids who are that age can wander a mile from home without the parents becoming too alarmed. I suspect the grandparents knew about the dealings going on at the bridge whether the girls were involved or not. In a town of less than a 1000 it is hard not to know what everyone's doing. Maggie

Could Taylor's parents have been called away from the home intentionally by someone connected to the killer/killers so that they wouldn't be around when the murders happened and couldn't identify them? Maybe some sort of alibi thing?

[christine2448]

Please continue here. (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68088)