Who Is Caylee's Biological Father?

[FightTheOstrich]

When you hear horses hooves, you don't look for zebras, you look for horses.

What if you live on the Serengeti? I don't mean to be facetious but it does require us to have perspective. KC, while not exactly a criminal mastermind, is a deviant beyond almost all comprehension. How do we know if her baby daddy doesn't have anything to do with this? That is for LE and prosecutors to decide. They need all of the information that pertains to Cayls and decide from there it's importance or lack there of.

There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret. I also don't believe with all the mitigating circumstances surrounding this case that his privacy is of any importance whatsoever.

[Capri]

The test is exclusionary to JG, not inclusionary to anyone else. Meaning, if there is no paternal sample to compare it to, it just "reads" the sample to test against. Ere Go, JG is not the father, but it would in itself not say who the father is..
Yes, I know, I admit it, I SOO want my dear LP to be wrong.

How much info is actually in these paternity test results? IIRC the lab that did JG's test no longer has Caylee's DNA sample, so only the results. I am wondering how much "extra" info there is on these type results. Is it truly just a written result on a percentage of possibility for paternity, and that's it, or is there anything which could give further info?

[Dr. Pennypacker]

I am not a DNA expert, but if you have the full profile from Caylee, as I understand it, you would be able to tell if she was a product of something that happens tens of thousands if not more every year in this country. A study in Arizona recently said 1 in 8 girls suffer from sexual abuse and half of those or 1 in 16 of every girl in the state has suffered sexual abuse from either a brother or father. It is one of the most under reported crimes in America. Over 60 percent of violent female offenders have had sexual abuse in their childhood.

The statistics on mothers murdering their children is like something around 200 a year. Their are hundreds of thousands of young women sexually assaulted in America and many of those by family more importantly by fathers and brothers.

So why is it so hard for people to accept this as a real possibility that she was conceived by a union between Casey and Lee; it is almost taboo to even discuss with folks yet so many are so quick to believe that Casey would kill her own child and that is so rare. If violence in women stems from sexual abuse as prison statistics show, it would give insight into what led Casey to her path of destruction.

I agree, there seems to be a a real phobia about this topic and backlash when it is mentioned.

[Pink Panther]

What if you live on the Serengeti? I don't mean to be facetious but it does require us to have perspective. KC, while not exactly a criminal mastermind, is a deviant beyond almost all comprehension. How do we know if her baby daddy doesn't have anything to do with this? That is for LE and prosecutors to decide. They need all of the information that pertains to Cayls and decide from there it's importance or lack there of.

There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret. I also don't believe with all the mitigating circumstances surrounding this case that his privacy is of any importance whatsoever.
Of course the paternity issue is relevant and important to this case! She's claiming a kidnapping. A child abduction. Statistically, it's by no means an uncommon occurance for a blood related family member to be involved in a child abduction. LE would not be doing their job if they did not attempt to persue this angle.

[FightTheOstrich]

Of course the paternity issue is relevant and important to this case! She's claiming a kidnapping. A child abduction. Statistically, it's by no means an uncommon occurance for a blood related family member to be involved in a child abduction. LE would not be doing their job if they did not attempt to persue this angle.

Precisely.

[weasel]

<<There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret.>>

Actually, there is no secret. LE and just about everyone else involved in this case has stated the father was killed in a car accident a year ago. I have no reason to doubt LE. If they are satisfied that the person killed was the father, it's good enough for me. Obviously they know more than I do. As for Lee being the father, as far as genetics go, wouldn't there be some obvious developmental disorder or dysmorphic feature in a child born from this type of union? I'm no genius by any stretch, but I do believe this would be obvious and Caylee sure seem like a beautiful, intelligent child to me.

[weasel]

<<I agree, there seems to be a a real phobia about this topic and backlash when it is mentioned>>

I can't speak for everyone, only myself. For me, this subject is not "phobic" and it's not "almost taboo". I just think it's wrong to imply something of this nature without any sort of proof or even an indication. People are quick to believe Casey killed her own child because there is strong evidence that points to her guilt. There is not one single shred of evidence or even a hint (other than LP's comment) that would even lead a person to consider an incestous relationship other than imagination. In my opinion, I don't believe it's fair to LA to suggest such a relationship without any basis at all.

[concentric]

<<There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret.>>

Actually, there is no secret. LE and just about everyone else involved in this case has stated the father was killed in a car accident a year ago. I have no reason to doubt LE. If they are satisfied that the person killed was the father, it's good enough for me. Obviously they know more than I do. As for Lee being the father, as far as genetics go, wouldn't there be some obvious developmental disorder or dysmorphic feature in a child born from this type of union? I'm no genius by any stretch, but I do believe this would be obvious and Caylee sure seem like a beautiful, intelligent child to me.

Not in every case.

[tiredofthis]

I am not a DNA expert, but if you have the full profile from Caylee, as I understand it, you would be able to tell if she was a product of something that happens tens of thousands if not more every year in this country. A study in Arizona recently said 1 in 8 girls suffer from sexual abuse and half of those or 1 in 16 of every girl in the state has suffered sexual abuse from either a brother or father. It is one of the most under reported crimes in America. Over 60 percent of violent female offenders have had sexual abuse in their childhood.

The statistics on mothers murdering their children is like something around 200 a year. Their are hundreds of thousands of young women sexually assaulted in America and many of those by family more importantly by fathers and brothers.

So why is it so hard for people to accept this as a real possibility that she was conceived by a union between Casey and Lee; it is almost taboo to even discuss with folks yet so many are so quick to believe that Casey would kill her own child and that is so rare. If violence in women stems from sexual abuse as prison statistics show, it would give insight into what led Casey to her path of destruction.

It isn't that I don't believe it could happen. As someone who has survived that kind of abuse, I know it can happen. And it might explain why KC has shown so little feeling towards her own child. You're right about it being taboo. In my family it was swept under the rug and was never to be talked about. Maybe the same thing happened to KC. Sexual abuse can do a lot of damage mentally and emotionally and some people never get over the trauma.

[Broderick]

<<There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret.>>

Actually, there is no secret. LE and just about everyone else involved in this case has stated the father was killed in a car accident a year ago. I have no reason to doubt LE. If they are satisfied that the person killed was the father, it's good enough for me. Obviously they know more than I do. As for Lee being the father, as far as genetics go, wouldn't there be some obvious developmental disorder or dysmorphic feature in a child born from this type of union? I'm no genius by any stretch, but I do believe this would be obvious and Caylee sure seem like a beautiful, intelligent child to me.

Law enforcement has never made any such statement. They have been told several stories by the family. Directly and indirectly the family has told about 5 or 6 stories about who the father is. Either he was a one night stand, a married guy who moved out of state, a armed forces guy, a guy who was 15 or 16 that died on his 18th birthday in 2007, or a few other I forget.

[concentric]

It may also explain why her anger was intensified and lead to the crime.

[weasel]

<<Law enforcement has never made any such statement>>

I believe they did. I remember LE making this very statement in a press conference. They also mentioned the fact that the father's family did not wish to be identified due to the attention it would generate.

[weasel]

I remember LE also stating the biological father's family didn't know about Caylee.

[Pink Panther]

<<Law enforcement has never made any such statement>>

I believe they did. I remember LE making this very statement in a press conference. They also mentioned the fact that the father's family did not wish to be identified due to the attention it would generate.
Weasel - I think that this was all "early days" and none of this information was being released as fact. They were stating what they were being told.

MOO

[Capri]

<<There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret.>>

Actually, there is no secret. LE and just about everyone else involved in this case has stated the father was killed in a car accident a year ago. I have no reason to doubt LE. If they are satisfied that the person killed was the father, it's good enough for me. Obviously they know more than I do. As for Lee being the father, as far as genetics go, wouldn't there be some obvious developmental disorder or dysmorphic feature in a child born from this type of union? I'm no genius by any stretch, but I do believe this would be obvious and Caylee sure seem like a beautiful, intelligent child to me.

I'm being serious here and not trying to be snarky, :) Where did LE state that the father was killed in a car accident? I hadn't heard any statement from them. Can you point me in the right direction, if they did?

[Broderick]

It isn't that I don't believe it could happen. As someone who has survived that kind of abuse, I know it can happen. And it might explain why KC has shown so little feeling towards her own child. You're right about it being taboo. In my family it was swept under the rug and was never to be talked about. Maybe the same thing happened to KC. Sexual abuse can do a lot of damage mentally and emotionally and some people never get over the trauma.

Precisely. There are several things unanswered that would be explained possibly.

Why did the family circle the wagons following the 3rd 911 call?
Who helped clean the car and determine that it was okay to launder clothes in there?
Why did George file for divorce several months after Caylee was born?
Why didn't Lee come around the house when George was there?
Who paid the enormous cell phone bills for Casey?
Why so many stories about who the father is?
Why did Casey abandon her job shortly the next year?
Why did they enable her while she lied and stole?
Why did Lee refuse the DNA test?
Why has there been no denials to allegations?
If abuse, which on average last 7 years, was happening in high school would that explain her dropping out?
Why did Casey hate her father?
Why did Casey seem to resent her mother?
etc.
etc.
etc.

[Broderick]

<<Law enforcement has never made any such statement>>

I believe they did. I remember LE making this very statement in a press conference. They also mentioned the fact that the father's family did not wish to be identified due to the attention it would generate.

I honestly never recall any such thing. I would love to hear it or read it if possible.

[karenmamo]

[QUOTE=tiredofthis;2873365][QUOTE=Charmed Life;2871779]

Rob Dick says that he has seen the DNA reports from when Jesse took the paternity test. LP may know a lot more than anyone thinks.

Hi Broderick! I noticed today on their site that Lee's DNA results are not back as of yesterday.

[weasel]

OT - how did I manage the red text?? The word "father" shows up red on my screen ... LOL.... sorry

<<Weasel - I think that this was all "early days" and none of this information was being released as fact. They were stating what they were being told.>>

This is possible .... but I will search for the press statement from LE to try to verify. I realize the family has told many stories to LE and everyone regarding who the father is. My point with this whole subject is in the first place, I still don't think the bio dad has any relevance to the case. The A's have their issues just like any other family. Just my opinion because I don't know these people personally, but I think Casey was and is an overindulged child.

[Dr. Pennypacker]

CA has told several mistruths about the baby daddy in order to cloud the issue.
CA does not want the public to know the truth.

[Brini]

What if you live on the Serengeti? I don't mean to be facetious but it does require us to have perspective. KC, while not exactly a criminal mastermind, is a deviant beyond almost all comprehension. How do we know if her baby daddy doesn't have anything to do with this? That is for LE and prosecutors to decide. They need all of the information that pertains to Cayls and decide from there it's importance or lack there of.

There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret. I also don't believe with all the mitigating circumstances surrounding this case that his privacy is of any importance whatsoever.

KC doesn't live on the Serengheti.

Rick says he thinks KC got pregnant at a party, and doesn't know who the father is. The family says they don't know who the father is.

And, it doesn't matter who the father is, unless some evidence points that way.

LE has to go where the evidence points. LE and the courts decided that it points to KC, and she has been indicted.

They don't have to investigate everybody-- just the one(s) to whom the evidence points.

[Broderick]

[QUOTE=Broderick;2873379][QUOTE=tiredofthis;2873365]

Hi Broderick! I noticed today on their site that Lee's DNA results are not back as of yesterday.

Thanks for the update. The more I look at things, the more I do believe something is very fishy about who the father is and what happened in Casey's life that led her down that very dark path. Sometimes parents enable their children out of a sense of guilt. In cases of incest, I read that the mother and parents in general never have a clue. Did the DNA testing of Jesse and Caylee make them discover something so shameful that it took a strong Cindy to layout the future and her control doomed Caylee in the end?

[Pink Panther]

KC doesn't live on the Serengheti.

Rick says he thinks KC got pregnant at a party, and doesn't know who the father is. The family says they don't know who the father is.

And, it doesn't matter who the father is, unless some evidence points that way.

LE has to go where the evidence points. LE and the courts decided that it points to KC, and she has been indicted.

They don't have to investigate everybody-- just the one(s) to whom the evidence points.

There have been countless discussions here about what may/may not have happened. The defence is claiming that once we find out we will all say "now I understand". KC is claiming that Caylee was kidnapped. Who is to say that they won't claim that her father's family has taken her?

I don't know if it has been possible/will be possible to determine who the father is but without question, this information is most likely to have been persued by both sides.

MOO

[concentric]

And to follow if this is true...was it Cindy who insisted on keeping Caylee in the family and not adopting her out?

[weasel]

<<Why did the family circle the wagons following the 3rd 911 call? -

I think this is the norm for them. Defending Casey. Remember Scott Peterson's parents?

Who helped clean the car and determine that it was okay to launder clothes in there?

Same as above .... protecting Casey.

Why did George file for divorce several months after Caylee was born?

This is a hard one .... the public doesn't, nor should they be, privy to someone's marital relationship. Married couples sometimes have problems. It's normal.

Why didn't Lee come around the house when George was there?

Although I have read that both LA and Casey had issues with both parents, it could be any number of reasons. Families have relationship issues ... also normal.

Who paid the enormous cell phone bills for Casey?

My guess would be her mommy .... or stolen money.

Why so many stories about who the father is?

Now this is a good question. In looking at other threads in this very forum, lots of posters are basically calling Casey a "wh*re" because of her many boyfriends, yet are suspicious that a biological father is not specifically named. Maybe it's possible she herself doesn't know for sure.

Why did Casey abandon her job shortly the next year?

Spoiled, lazy, just plain doesn't want to work.

Why did they enable her while she lied and stole?

Because she is their daughter. I refer to the Scott Peterson case again ... didn't matter what he did ... he was still the "golden boy". Same syndrome.

Why did Lee refuse the DNA test?

To be difficult. This is just my opinion, but in observing LA .. his car, his attitude, etc., doesn't he strike anyone else as being just plain arrogant? Much like his little sister. I still shudder when I hear him laugh about the smell in the car.

Why has there been no denials to allegations?

Should they have to defend themselves against such an allegation?

If abuse, which on average last 7 years, was happening in high school would that explain her dropping out?

I think she dropped out because she's a quitter. Plain and simple. She didn't want to go anymore so she just quit. Thought she'd get a job and when that turned out to be real work too, she quit again.

Why did Casey hate her father?

I don't think Casey really hates GA. I think she probably has a better relationship with GA than CA. I refer back to LA's statement to LE regarding his conversation with Casey wherein Casey admits Caylee is missing. Casey tells LA about CA throwing it in her face about Caylee being a mistake, being an unfit mother ... etc. etc. My opinion, I think GA always took up for Casey and pretty much covered for her. I always thought of Casey as kind of "daddy's girl".

Why did Casey seem to resent her mother?>>

Because CA tried to make Casey into something she isn't. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... no matter how hard you try. No amount of pressure, nagging or insults is going to make someone want to be a better person.


Of course all of the above is just my opinion.

[concentric]

You know what, Cindy may have made the decision that Casey should not adopt Caylee out, and she really didn't want to be the mother, she wanted to be the grandmother. That, I think is the crux of this matter. Casey did not want to be "mom".

[tiredofthis]

I guess we can argue it both ways. KC was molested by a member of her family or KC slept around and doesn't know who Caylee's father is. In the end, the only thing that matters is the fact that Caylee is still missing and presumed dead.

[TotallyObsessed]

I guess we can argue it both ways. KC was molested by a member of her family or KC slept around and doesn't know who Caylee's father is. In the end, the only thing that matters is the fact that Caylee is still missing and presumed dead.


:clap:

And for that matter, I simply just don't give a flying flip who the daddy was/is. It means nada, zilch, NOTHING to the reason KC killed her little girl.

[concentric]

Yes, tiredofthis -

Both of them, Cindy and Casey = need to fess up.

[CanManEh]

Thanks. I have no clue why this case has grabbed my attention, but I am on a mission to make sense of it all. It is so convoluted. There are so many lies to wade through and in the meantime, a little girl's body needs to be found. She grabbed my heart, and I am angry at the way this family has tossed her aside for fame, wealth, and what seems to me a protection of a deep family secret. The scenario is the only thing that makes any of this make sense.

I would not dismiss what the Padillas know. Rob just said yesterday that he has seen the full paternity report when Jesse was found not to be the father. I have a feeling they know and are waiting for LE confirmation now that Lee's DNA was taken under subpoena.

ARE you kidding me I stated this over a month ago the very night LP said that he has heard that LA may be the father .Im fairly new to this so i dont know how u go back and check stuff out but how many times do i have to bring this up only to have someone else bring it up .. But hey good thinking broderick thank god for people such as yourself or nothing would get solved weather its realitty or a theory..even if it was mentioned over and over.

[Dr. Pennypacker]

I'm just hoping to see little Caylee returned alive and well.:blowkiss:

[concentric]

ARE you kidding me I stated this over a month ago the very night LP said that he has heard that LA may be the father .Im fairly new to this so i dont know how u go back and check stuff out but how many times do i have to bring this up only to have someone else bring it up .. But hey good thinking broderick thank god for people such as yourself or nothing would get solved weather its realitty or a theory..even if it was mentioned over and over.

Sorry that happened to you, it's happened to me as well on here. You are the initiator, or two people at once initiate a theory. So thank you and sorry I am guilty of the same thing I am peeved about.

[Brini]

<<Why did the family circle the wagons following the 3rd 911 call? -

I think this is the norm for them. Defending Casey. Remember Scott Peterson's parents?

Who helped clean the car and determine that it was okay to launder clothes in there?

Same as above .... protecting Casey.

Why did George file for divorce several months after Caylee was born?

This is a hard one .... the public doesn't, nor should they be, privy to someone's marital relationship. Married couples sometimes have problems. It's normal.

Why didn't Lee come around the house when George was there?

Although I have read that both LA and Casey had issues with both parents, it could be any number of reasons. Families have relationship issues ... also normal.

Who paid the enormous cell phone bills for Casey?

My guess would be her mommy .... or stolen money.

Why so many stories about who the father is?

Now this is a good question. In looking at other threads in this very forum, lots of posters are basically calling Casey a "wh*re" because of her many boyfriends, yet are suspicious that a biological father is not specifically named. Maybe it's possible she herself doesn't know for sure.

Why did Casey abandon her job shortly the next year?

Spoiled, lazy, just plain doesn't want to work.

Why did they enable her while she lied and stole?

Because she is their daughter. I refer to the Scott Peterson case again ... didn't matter what he did ... he was still the "golden boy". Same syndrome.

Why did Lee refuse the DNA test?

To be difficult. This is just my opinion, but in observing LA .. his car, his attitude, etc., doesn't he strike anyone else as being just plain arrogant? Much like his little sister. I still shudder when I hear him laugh about the smell in the car.

Why has there been no denials to allegations?

Should they have to defend themselves against such an allegation?

If abuse, which on average last 7 years, was happening in high school would that explain her dropping out?

I think she dropped out because she's a quitter. Plain and simple. She didn't want to go anymore so she just quit. Thought she'd get a job and when that turned out to be real work too, she quit again.

Why did Casey hate her father?

I don't think Casey really hates GA. I think she probably has a better relationship with GA than CA. I refer back to LA's statement to LE regarding his conversation with Casey wherein Casey admits Caylee is missing. Casey tells LA about CA throwing it in her face about Caylee being a mistake, being an unfit mother ... etc. etc. My opinion, I think GA always took up for Casey and pretty much covered for her. I always thought of Casey as kind of "daddy's girl".

Why did Casey seem to resent her mother?>>

Because CA tried to make Casey into something she isn't. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... no matter how hard you try. No amount of pressure, nagging or insults is going to make someone want to be a better person.


Of course all of the above is just my opinion.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Brini]

I am not a DNA expert, but if you have the full profile from Caylee, as I understand it, you would be able to tell if she was a product of something that happens tens of thousands if not more every year in this country. A study in Arizona recently said 1 in 8 girls suffer from sexual abuse and half of those or 1 in 16 of every girl in the state has suffered sexual abuse from either a brother or father. It is one of the most under reported crimes in America. Over 60 percent of violent female offenders have had sexual abuse in their childhood.

The statistics on mothers murdering their children is like something around 200 a year. There are hundreds of thousands of young women sexually assaulted in America and many of those by family more importantly by fathers and brothers.

So why is it so hard for people to accept this as a real possibility that she was conceived by a union between Casey and Lee; it is almost taboo to even discuss with folks yet so many are so quick to believe that Casey would kill her own child and that is so rare. If violence in women stems from sexual abuse as prison statistics show, it would give insight into what led Casey to her path of destruction.

So, you think LA is able to FORCE KC to do anything? Especially as an adult? She was an adult when Caylee was conceived.

Do you see KC subordinating herslf to LA?

Sorry.. I worked with a ton of molested (incest) kids. I don't think it's happening to KC.

Now, re: sociopathy, researchers seem to be divided. Some think there is a hereditary "bad seed." Some think that it's the product of having a parent with a personality disorder. There is no solid evidence either way. But, incest is not found to a higher than normal degree in that population.

[tiredofthis]

So, you think LA is able to FORCE KC to do anything? Especially as an adult? She was an adult when Caylee was conceived.

Do you see KC subordinating herslf to LA?

Sorry.. I worked with a ton of molested (incest) kids. I don't think it's happening to KC.

I agree with you. I don't think KC was forced into anything. I don't think she was a victim of incest and I don't believe that either LA or GA are Caylee's father.

The only thing that matters is finding Caylee.

[Recovering-Lurker]

So, you think LA is able to FORCE KC to do anything? Especially as an adult? She was an adult when Caylee was conceived.

Do you see KC subordinating herslf to LA?

Sorry.. I worked with a ton of molested (incest) kids. I don't think it's happening to KC.

Maybe KC wasn't the one that was forced.

[fox1950]

I think possibly Casey does not know who Caylee's father is. She knows the possiblities (who she slept with during that period) but without DNA she trully does not know. I know a girl who worked at SS in Kentucky. She says it is not that unusual for a woman trying to get child support to have several men's DNA tested before finding who the father is by process of elimination. I don't think this is the norm....however, there are women out there who do sleep with alot of men. Could be a one night stand, too.

[sha-sha]

ARE you kidding me I stated this over a month ago the very night LP said that he has heard that LA may be the father .Im fairly new to this so i dont know how u go back and check stuff out but how many times do i have to bring this up only to have someone else bring it up .. But hey good thinking broderick thank god for people such as yourself or nothing would get solved weather its realitty or a theory..even if it was mentioned over and over.

The same thing happens to me sometimes... just go with it.:)

[tiredofthis]

Maybe KC wasn't the one that was forced.

:eek:

[Brini]

I am not a DNA expert, but if you have the full profile from Caylee, as I understand it, you would be able to tell if she was a product of something that happens tens of thousands if not more every year in this country. A study in Arizona recently said 1 in 8 girls suffer from sexual abuse and half of those or 1 in 16 of every girl in the state has suffered sexual abuse from either a brother or father. It is one of the most under reported crimes in America. Over 60 percent of violent female offenders have had sexual abuse in their childhood.

The statistics on mothers murdering their children is like something around 200 a year. There are hundreds of thousands of young women sexually assaulted in America and many of those by family more importantly by fathers and brothers.

So why is it so hard for people to accept this as a real possibility that she was conceived by a union between Casey and Lee; it is almost taboo to even discuss with folks yet so many are so quick to believe that Casey would kill her own child and that is so rare. If violence in women stems from sexual abuse as prison statistics show, it would give insight into what led Casey to her path of destruction.

Sociopathy is what led KC on her path to destruction. Most socioaths were NOT molested as children. Some were. Just like the general population.

One reason why it is so hard to believe (well, two) is: 1) no sx of PTSD in KC, 2) no evidence that LE Has that kind of control over KC. Do you REALLY see LA as being able to coerce KC? To force her to do things against her will? It's hard to envision ANYONE in that family having that kind of control over KC.

And, maybe KC and the family are quiet about who the daddy is because they either don't know (like so many young women) or they don't think it's anyone's business.

It is certainly not relevant to this case.

LE thinks they know who did it, and why.

I'm sure if LE found something THAT hinky in the family (DNA), they would already have checked it out.

Now, do you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson and Bianchi were also incest victims? It was not found in their histories.

Another thing, if KC is really a sociopath, she would not suffer from feelings of shame, in any case.

[TotallyObsessed]

:eek:


IF the scenario of incest happened, I believe that way. That KC seduced and forced LA. She is so capable of that....

[Chilly Willy]

Of course the paternity issue is relevant and important to this case! She's claiming a kidnapping. A child abduction. Statistically, it's by no means an uncommon occurance for a blood related family member to be involved in a child abduction. LE would not be doing their job if they did not attempt to persue this angle.

LE has pursued the kidnapping/child abduction claim and it didn't lead anywhere except to murder charges against Casey. They've done their job.

[Brini]

I think possibly Casey does not know who Caylee's father is. She knows the possiblities (who she slept with during that period) but without DNA she trully does not know. I know a girl who worked at SS in Kentucky. She says it is not that unusual for a woman trying to get child support to have several men's DNA tested before finding who the father is by process of elimination. I don't think this is the norm....however, there are women out there who do sleep with alot of men. Could be a one night stand, too.

And, KC seems to often have a "back-up" guy.

[Brini]

LE has pursued the kidnapping/child abduction claim and it didn't lead anywhere except to murder charges against Casey. They've done their job.

Precisely.

[Brini]

<<Why did the family circle the wagons following the 3rd 911 call? -

I think this is the norm for them. Defending Casey. Remember Scott Peterson's parents?

Who helped clean the car and determine that it was okay to launder clothes in there?

Same as above .... protecting Casey.

Why did George file for divorce several months after Caylee was born?

This is a hard one .... the public doesn't, nor should they be, privy to someone's marital relationship. Married couples sometimes have problems. It's normal.

Why didn't Lee come around the house when George was there?

Although I have read that both LA and Casey had issues with both parents, it could be any number of reasons. Families have relationship issues ... also normal.

Who paid the enormous cell phone bills for Casey?

My guess would be her mommy .... or stolen money.

Why so many stories about who the father is?

Now this is a good question. In looking at other threads in this very forum, lots of posters are basically calling Casey a "wh*re" because of her many boyfriends, yet are suspicious that a biological father is not specifically named. Maybe it's possible she herself doesn't know for sure.

Why did Casey abandon her job shortly the next year?

Spoiled, lazy, just plain doesn't want to work.

Why did they enable her while she lied and stole?

Because she is their daughter. I refer to the Scott Peterson case again ... didn't matter what he did ... he was still the "golden boy". Same syndrome.

Why did Lee refuse the DNA test?

To be difficult. This is just my opinion, but in observing LA .. his car, his attitude, etc., doesn't he strike anyone else as being just plain arrogant? Much like his little sister. I still shudder when I hear him laugh about the smell in the car.

Why has there been no denials to allegations?

Should they have to defend themselves against such an allegation?

If abuse, which on average last 7 years, was happening in high school would that explain her dropping out?

I think she dropped out because she's a quitter. Plain and simple. She didn't want to go anymore so she just quit. Thought she'd get a job and when that turned out to be real work too, she quit again.

Why did Casey hate her father?

I don't think Casey really hates GA. I think she probably has a better relationship with GA than CA. I refer back to LA's statement to LE regarding his conversation with Casey wherein Casey admits Caylee is missing. Casey tells LA about CA throwing it in her face about Caylee being a mistake, being an unfit mother ... etc. etc. My opinion, I think GA always took up for Casey and pretty much covered for her. I always thought of Casey as kind of "daddy's girl".

Why did Casey seem to resent her mother?>>

Because CA tried to make Casey into something she isn't. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... no matter how hard you try. No amount of pressure, nagging or insults is going to make someone want to be a better person.


Of course all of the above is just my opinion.

BTW- Re: the filed divorce. Rick said that GA had a serious Net gambling habit. That CA decided to divorce, but GA got to the courthouse first.

[Broderick]

ARE you kidding me I stated this over a month ago the very night LP said that he has heard that LA may be the father .Im fairly new to this so i dont know how u go back and check stuff out but how many times do i have to bring this up only to have someone else bring it up .. But hey good thinking broderick thank god for people such as yourself or nothing would get solved weather its realitty or a theory..even if it was mentioned over and over.

Sorry I got this conclusion in my mind kind of late. I have been trying to come to an explanation in the case that made sense not only of Casey's behavior but the family's behavior. In the beginning I kind of thought there might be truth in the kidnapping or a biological parent on the father's side taking the child and then I quickly learned that wasn't the case. Then I thought perhaps it was an accident and more information came out that led me to believe it was premeditated to a degree, albeit rushed. Now after reviewing everything, I found there was no simple explanation for everything until I put the scenario of a Lee and Casey union as Padilla suggested and now it seems to make more sense of everyone, and everything involved.

Some people probably see the whole picture faster than me, as I had to come to some of what I am saying through time. I will give credit where credit is due, and if you were on that train of thought much earlier you deserve the credit for it.

[Broderick]

Sociopathy is what led KC on her path to destruction. Most socioaths were NOT molested as children. Some were. Just like the general population.

One reason why it is so hard to believe (well, two) is: 1) no sx of PTSD in KC, 2) no evidence that LE Has that kind of control over KC. Do you REALLY see LA as being able to coerce KC? To force her to do things against her will? It's hard to envision ANYONE in that family having that kind of control over KC.

And, maybe KC and the family are quiet about who the daddy is because they either don't know (like so many young women) or they don't think it's anyone's business.

It is certainly not relevant to this case.

LE thinks they know who did it, and why.

I'm sure if LE found something THAT hinky in the family (DNA), they would already have checked it out.

Now, do you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson and Bianchi were also incest victims? It was not found in their histories.

Another thing, if KC is really a sociopath, she would not suffer from feelings of shame, in any case.



I think we just disagree on this. Doesn't matter to me at this point, not trying to convince you. We will find out soon and honestly nobody wins.

[FightTheOstrich]

<<There has got to be a reason that family is keeping the father's identity a secret.>>

Actually, there is no secret. LE and just about everyone else involved in this case has stated the father was killed in a car accident a year ago. I have no reason to doubt LE. If they are satisfied that the person killed was the father, it's good enough for me. Obviously they know more than I do. As for Lee being the father, as far as genetics go, wouldn't there be some obvious developmental disorder or dysmorphic feature in a child born from this type of union? I'm no genius by any stretch, but I do believe this would be obvious and Caylee sure seem like a beautiful, intelligent child to me.

Gotta link stating almost everyone in this case has stated that? Seeings how this is sleuthing board, I'm surprised no one has figured it out yet seeings how everyone knows he died in a car accident. But, then again, CA stated JG was the father at one point so there's one person who hasn't stuck to that story.

[Brini]

Gotta link stating almost everyone in this case has stated that? Seeings how this is sleuthing board, I'm surprised no one has figured it out yet seeings how everyone knows he died in a car accident. But, then again, CA stated JG was the father at one point so there's one person who hasn't stuck to that story.

She also cited two separate guys as the father, both of which died in a car accident.

She may have told Ryan what is closest to the truth. That he was an unimportant one-nighter, whom she never saw again.

[karenz]

I agree, there seems to be a a real phobia about this topic and backlash when it is mentioned.

Dr. P

I definitely have a strong reaction/backlash myself so I must fess up! I asked if someone could summarize for me evidence that leads one to believe this may be a possibility. I am not doubting anyone I guess I have a hard time because all I have heard is LP said there may be. I have read through the posts but can some "believers" fill me in on why they believe there may have been incest. I am trying to keep a open mind so if you could present your points of view I would appreciate it.

On that note, I examine why I have such a strong reaction myself. I guess I fear that KC will use some PTSD or incest or some other excuse that may not be valid for getting away with this. If she does have a valid reason, I would love to wrap my head around it and maybe find a way in my own heart to understand. If not, I guess i just get mad it is just another of KC's ploys at the expense of those with real, valid issues.

I just want to know! And I don't think I will ever know. Frustrating.

Thanks!

[Broderick]

Dr. P

I definitely have a strong reaction/backlash myself so I must fess up! I asked if someone could summarize for me evidence that leads one to believe this may be a possibility. I am not doubting anyone I guess I have a hard time because all I have heard is LP said there may be. I have read through the posts but can some "believers" fill me in on why they believe there may have been incest. I am trying to keep a open mind so if you could present your points of view I would appreciate it.

On that note, I examine why I have such a strong reaction myself. I guess I fear that KC will use some PTSD or incest or some other excuse that may not be valid for getting away with this. If she does have a valid reason, I would love to wrap my head around it and maybe find a way in my own heart to understand. If not, I guess i just get mad it is just another of KC's ploys at the expense of those with real, valid issues.

I just want to know! And I don't think I will ever know. Frustrating.

Thanks!


I have outlined several times why I personally believe there may be validity to it. I think it explains some things that has people puzzled regarding the trek Casey was on and the family behavior starting the night of the 911 calls by Cindy.

It would explain the following:
1. A seemingly shy, quiet, smart, young girl dropping suddenly out of high school. This has been disputed by some.
2. Denial by her and the family that she was pregnant at her brothers wedding at 7 months pregnant.
3. A slippery path to sociopathy starting with the abandonment of her job where she was employee of the year.
4. Resentment towards Caylee and her mother, evolving into murder as the sociopathy took over.
5. The family enabling her out of shame to lie, steal, and cheat. Guilt.
6. Her promiscuity after Caylee was born. (Typical of abuse victims)
7. Her closeness with her abuser. Not abnormal in the least.
8. Her mother saying she was protecting the family.
9. Lee trying to stop the third 911 call.
10. Lee trying to handle the investigation.
11. Lee convincing Cindy and George to not take polygraghs.
12. The family's numerous stories of who the father is and Casey's choice to invoke sympathy by saying the father died coming to Caylee's birthday.
13. The family regrouping and circling the wagons following the third 911 call.
14. Lee refusing to take a DNA test.
15. Cindy saying Casey would be mother of the year when she really meant that she would be mother of the year by proxy by protecting Casey and Lee.
16. The continued obfuscation of Law Enforcement and lies to the media.
17. Lee disappearing from everywhere following the subpoena for DNA being served.
18. George leaving the house and living with parents around the time Caylee was brought home and the filing for divorce about the time the paternity test with Jesse was taken. Was he ashamed of Lee or was it a gambling habit?
19. Lee not coming around before this when George was home.
20. The name - Cay-Lee - named by Cindy when Cindy was the first to hold the child.


I think it was curious how Dr. Baden on Fox suggested they know the father when he looked at the latest FBI report. It is also my knowledge now that Rob Dick and the L. Padilla team had access to the paternity reports with Jesse and he has been waiting patiently for the DNA tests to confirm what they think they know. This might explain how Casey's phone bills were paid if she were to have the outward responsibility of taking care of the child, whereby Lee had some financial responsibility to Casey and Caylee.

I don't think it is an excuse by any means, but it would explain some things that have people wondering. I guess it comes down to this if true:

1. They found out that night that Caylee is gone.
2. Cindy and George cleaned the car out, laundered items in the car and removed potential evidence.
3. They all attempted to get the date of the 9th straight corresponding to the woman found raped and murdered around that time.
4. They obfuscated LE by sending on wild goosechases
5. They let Casey know at the bond hearing that "there is no evidence" and a thumbs up by George.
6. Deny and backtrack over previous statements.
7. Throw off search efforts.
8. Make money off the deal one way or another for defense and for the future benefit of the family.
9. Now it is public relations and money deals.
10. Meanwhile who knows where Caylee's body is at. They don't care.

[belleyes]

So, you think LA is able to FORCE KC to do anything? Especially as an adult? She was an adult when Caylee was conceived.

Do you see KC subordinating herslf to LA?

Sorry.. I worked with a ton of molested (incest) kids. I don't think it's happening to KC.

Now, re: sociopathy, researchers seem to be divided. Some think there is a hereditary "bad seed." Some think that it's the product of having a parent with a personality disorder. There is no solid evidence either way. But, incest is not found to a higher than normal degree in that population.


Most molestation victims are not "forced" but groomed and it definately can occur into adulthood. Many times the victim is conditioned to do what is "expected" in order to not "disrupt the family" I too have worked with many victims. Brini... I agree with you about the sociopathy but I also believe this is a textbook case of "family secrets"---IMO she has multiple d/x on dsm and also agree not exhibiting PTSD at (least not typically)

[Broderick]

Most molestation victims are not "forced" but groomed and it definately can occur into adulthood. Many times the victim is conditioned to do what is "expected" in order to not "disrupt the family" I too have worked with many victims. Brini... I agree with you about the sociopathy but I also believe this is a textbook case of "family secrets"---IMO she has multiple d/x on dsm and also agree not exhibiting PTSD at (least not typically)

I think your assessment is correct.

[SydneyMum]

<<Casey has brown eyes, not blue. >>

??? Casey has blue eyes ...


Yes, she has brown eyes. If you read the description on her arrest sheet, it states she has brown eyes and look at the pictures of her in custody, she has brown eyes. I also read somewhere that she wore coloured contacts.

[Brini]

Most molestation victims are not "forced" but groomed and it definately can occur into adulthood. Many times the victim is conditioned to do what is "expected" in order to not "disrupt the family" I too have worked with many victims. Brini... I agree with you about the sociopathy but I also believe this is a textbook case of "family secrets"---IMO she has multiple d/x on dsm and also agree not exhibiting PTSD at (least not typically)

KC appears to have been groomed? In what ways? Dependency? Adoption of part of the "molester's" reality? Both are essential to grooming.

KC does as she likes. Her self-image is not being nourished heavily by LE. It is being nourished by other poeple. She is not dependent on LE for any sort of reality check or ego feed. She appears to be more manipulative than LE, and is prolly two steps ahead of him, most of the time.

He does not appear to be sexually jealous of KC, either.

Their relationship looks like any other fairly close sib relationship.

Whet symptoms of "grooming" are you seeing?

[karenz]

I have outlined several times why I personally believe there may be validity to it. I think it explains some things that has people puzzled regarding the trek Casey was on and the family behavior starting the night of the 911 calls by Cindy.

It would explain the following:
1. A seemingly shy, quiet, smart, young girl dropping suddenly out of high school. This has been disputed by some.
2. Denial by her and the family that she was pregnant at her brothers wedding at 7 months pregnant.
3. A slippery path to sociopathy starting with the abandonment of her job where she was employee of the year.
4. Resentment towards Caylee and her mother, evolving into murder as the sociopathy took over.
5. The family enabling her out of shame to lie, steal, and cheat. Guilt.
6. Her promiscuity after Caylee was born. (Typical of abuse victims)
7. Her closeness with her abuser. Not abnormal in the least.
8. Her mother saying she was protecting the family.
9. Lee trying to stop the third 911 call.
10. Lee trying to handle the investigation.
11. Lee convincing Cindy and George to not take polygraghs.
12. The family's numerous stories of who the father is and Casey's choice to invoke sympathy by saying the father died coming to Caylee's birthday.
13. The family regrouping and circling the wagons following the third 911 call.
14. Lee refusing to take a DNA test.
15. Cindy saying Casey would be mother of the year when she really meant that she would be mother of the year by proxy by protecting Casey and Lee.
16. The continued obfuscation of Law Enforcement and lies to the media.
17. Lee disappearing from everywhere following the subpoena for DNA being served.
18. George leaving the house and living with parents around the time Caylee was brought home and the filing for divorce about the time the paternity test with Jesse was taken. Was he ashamed of Lee or was it a gambling habit?
19. Lee not coming around before this when George was home.
20. The name - Cay-Lee - named by Cindy when Cindy was the first to hold the child.
I think it was curious how Dr. Baden on Fox suggested they know the father when he looked at the latest FBI report. It is also my knowledge now that Rob Dick and the L. Padilla team had access to the paternity reports with Jesse and he has been waiting patiently for the DNA tests to confirm what they think they know. This might explain how Casey's phone bills were paid if she were to have the outward responsibility of taking care of the child, whereby Lee had some financial responsibility to Casey and Caylee.

I don't think it is an excuse by any means, but it would explain some things that have people wondering. I guess it comes down to this if true:

1. They found out that night that Caylee is gone.
2. Cindy and George cleaned the car out, laundered items in the car and removed potential evidence.
3. They all attempted to get the date of the 9th straight corresponding to the woman found raped and murdered around that time.
4. They obfuscated LE by sending on wild goosechases
5. They let Casey know at the bond hearing that "there is no evidence" and a thumbs up by George.
6. Deny and backtrack over previous statements.
7. Throw off search efforts.
8. Make money off the deal one way or another for defense and for the future benefit of the family.
9. Now it is public relations and money deals.
10. Meanwhile who knows where Caylee's body is at. They don't care.

Excellent post! Thank you so much. This is exactly what i was looking for.
You know I looked over your list and I see where people get the feeling. It was funny the last one on your list- boldened by me- was the one that stuck out the most for me. That is odd in my book. I have 2 brothers and would never call my kid half my name/half his name. Weird to me. Was one of the grandfathers a "Lee"?

What do you think of the fact there were only 2 calls between LA and KC. Another phone? KC trying to exert independence? Rebellion?

Also, has it been determined that she was indeed employee of the year or was that a fake? Just wondering if it fits in the whole scheme of things. It is my understanding that she simply ran a kiosk in the park and was a simple hourly worker. Nothing wrong with hourly working, just not something she cannot get another one of.

Ultimately, I see where most who believe this is a possibility is her seemingly "normal" up until Caylee was born. Sociopaths typically develop around that time too (but usually with previous signs). But perhaps some event (like rape, incest or some life altering event) precipitated this.

Honestly when JB said someday we will all understand why KC did this, I guess if this is what happened to her then I would understand more than I do now, but I know victims of incest that would never do these things. Most of them I know have dissociative or multiple personality disorders. Maybe this does fit KC?? I don't know.

I also read posts about 'Who cares who the Dad is?' I think it is extremely important to determine this to rule him out as a suspect. At least for this WS'er.

Thanks for mulling this around with me.

[tiredofthis]

Dr. P

I definitely have a strong reaction/backlash myself so I must fess up! I asked if someone could summarize for me evidence that leads one to believe this may be a possibility. I am not doubting anyone I guess I have a hard time because all I have heard is LP said there may be. I have read through the posts but can some "believers" fill me in on why they believe there may have been incest. I am trying to keep a open mind so if you could present your points of view I would appreciate it.

On that note, I examine why I have such a strong reaction myself. I guess I fear that KC will use some PTSD or incest or some other excuse that may not be valid for getting away with this. If she does have a valid reason, I would love to wrap my head around it and maybe find a way in my own heart to understand. If not, I guess i just get mad it is just another of KC's ploys at the expense of those with real, valid issues.

I just want to know! And I don't think I will ever know. Frustrating.

Thanks!

Being labeled with PTSD or as a victim of incest is not going to cause her to get away with murder. The labels might help explain some of her behavior, but she is still responsible for her actions. I'm sure the defense will try to claim she has a mental illness, but I don't think it will get them very far. You can be mentally ill and still know right from wrong.

Don't feel bad. I have a strong reaction to the entire incest theory too.

[Brini]

Dr. P

I definitely have a strong reaction/backlash myself so I must fess up! I asked if someone could summarize for me evidence that leads one to believe this may be a possibility. I am not doubting anyone I guess I have a hard time because all I have heard is LP said there may be. I have read through the posts but can some "believers" fill me in on why they believe there may have been incest. I am trying to keep a open mind so if you could present your points of view I would appreciate it.

On that note, I examine why I have such a strong reaction myself. I guess I fear that KC will use some PTSD or incest or some other excuse that may not be valid for getting away with this. If she does have a valid reason, I would love to wrap my head around it and maybe find a way in my own heart to understand. If not, I guess i just get mad it is just another of KC's ploys at the expense of those with real, valid issues.

I just want to know! And I don't think I will ever know. Frustrating.

Thanks!

Well, she has no symptoms of PTSD. If she claimed that or incest (which I doubt that she can) it wouldn't help. Incest victims and PTSD sufferers do not characteristically kill their kids.

She'd still have to prove she didn't know what she was doing. She can't.

[shadow of my mind]

Cindy’s behavior, the stories that she has told about who Caylee’s father is and the stories that she has allowed Casey to propagate all tend to point to a family ‘secret’.
It does appear that Cindy does not want something to be found out. Is it just that Casey was extremely promiscuous or is there something more?

Rape is also something that may have happened to Casey and although many cases of rape by a stranger or casual friend are never reported I would have thought by now Casey would have at least told her mother and at this point I don’t think Cindy would have felt the need to keep that a secret any longer. I could be wrong. If it was something that had happen to Cindy herself and she never dealt with it she may not been able to handle the same thing happening to Casey. That same fact may also play into incest. To acknowledge it with Casey means she has to face her own past. Cindy’s controlling behavior comes from somewhere. Cindy’s own past may be why Casey is like she is.

My initial thought when LP came out with the 'hint' that Lee A may be the father of Caylee the main purpose was to 'shake the tree' to see what fell out. Claim the father may be the brother and someone would fess up and come out with the actual name or potential names of the father to prove it was not Lee.
LP set the bait to see who would take it and what they would do with.

As far as LE wanting to know whom the father is would be because this was originally a kidnapping case so any relative that may have possibly involvement would need to be identified.

Now that this is a murder case and they have charged Casey I would think that the main reason to know who the father is would play to motive. Was Casey receiving some type of support? Even if nothing showed up on the books and this father stopped support would this be a reason for Casey killing her daughter.
Then I would also think that the prosecution would have to be prepared with information to dispute whatever the defense attempts to throw out there as ‘someone else is responsible’.
If LE can determine who the father is the prosecution reduces the risk of being blindsided in court with a theory of reasonable doubt from the defense.
From what I can see at this point with the evidence reasonable doubt by JB is the only thing he has.

It was not all that long ago that it was the norm for family members to marry other family members. You only have to go back a couple of hundred years to find it common for this to include 1st cousins as well. Society has a short memory and society also has many ‘blind’ spots. Incest by force happens everyday by fathers, brothers and uncles and the ages that it starts vary greatly. Unfortunately society is now only just starting to come to grips with this fact and the unwillingness to understand or even entertain this fact is why it continues to happen. How many girls have been a victim and to this day have never told a soul. They continue to carry the burden in fear that others will find out and blame them. Many do blame themselves. It is what they are lead to believe not only by the perpetrator but also by US, society. If not recognized, acknowledged and treated it carries into many areas of this person’s life. This type of abuse sets up the victim for a lifetime of mental anguish causing dysfunction. Dysfunction begets dysfunction.

Lee being the father is not really that far fetched. Yes it would be incest but it also may have been consensual incest and not from abuse or force. Another member of the family could have fathered Caylee as well and this could include George, one of the grandfathers, uncles or male cousins.

Continuing silence from Casey on whom the father is to be expected. The continued silence on whom the father is from Cindy at this point becomes suspect. Cindy gave LE a name in the one interview. It no longer severed any purpose to keep quite. The question remain was that name correct? Cindy claimed that legal papers had been drawn up and if LE found this to be not true, something that we do not yet know, then that would make it even a stronger possibility that a family member is Caylee’s father. The only other possibility is someone of prominence or power that would have a means of influence over the family to stay quite.

As always just my opinion.

[Brini]

I have outlined several times why I personally believe there may be validity to it. I think it explains some things that has people puzzled regarding the trek Casey was on and the family behavior starting the night of the 911 calls by Cindy.

It would explain the following:
1. A seemingly shy, quiet, smart, young girl dropping suddenly out of high school. This has been disputed by some.

***Because she wanted to party. Honey, she's a quitter.

2. Denial by her and the family that she was pregnant at her brothers wedding at 7 months pregnant.

***Pattern of going along with ANY lie she told, in her life. Not just the pregnancy.

3. A slippery path to sociopathy starting with the abandonment of her job where she was employee of the year.

***Sociopathy starts in childhood, NOT adulthood. LE said she "has a bit of a criminal history." My guess is she's acted out, and been enabled, for most of her life.

4. Resentment towards Caylee and her mother, evolving into murder as the sociopathy took over.

****Sociopathy starts early on, honey. It does not spring into full bloom in adulthood.

****I resented my father, heavily, too. He did not molest me.

5. The family enabling her out of shame to lie, steal, and cheat. Guilt.

**** How do you know they are enabling her "out of shame?" How about out of laziness, or out of the inability to control her? She appears to be a very strong-willed person. How about just not being great parents?

6. Her promiscuity after Caylee was born. (Typical of abuse victims)

*****It's also typical of young people getting away from the folks, these days. They get out of the house, and party hearty. This especially in kids who leave for college. Heck, I did it my freshman year.

7. Her closeness with her abuser. Not abnormal in the least.

****Her appropraite closeness to her BROTHER. Just like mine to my brother (who never molested me).

8. Her mother saying she was protecting the family.

**** That she is! Or, thinks she is. She's been covering for KC's sociopathic behavior all her life. Now, she's avoid the disgrace of felony and incarceration.

9. Lee trying to stop the third 911 call.

****Huh?

10. Lee trying to handle the investigation.

*****How so? Most of the "handling" is done by KC and CA. Both are controllers. LA appears to be a minor player.

11. Lee convincing Cindy and George to not take polygraphs.

*****How so? Many people won't take polygraphs on principle.

12. The family's numerous stories of who the father is and Casey's choice to invoke sympathy by saying the father died coming to Caylee's birthday.

****KC's choice to invoke sympathy is symptomatic of sociopathy. She's very manlpulative.

****Has it ever occured to you that they family might be telling the truth, when they say that they don't know who the father is? And, that Rick might know what he's talking about when he says that KC got pregnanty at a party, and doesn't know either?

13. The family regrouping and circling the wagons following the third 911 call.

*****Which is typical of "closed systems" families (dysfunctional). My family was one. And, there was no incest.

14. Lee refusing to take a DNA test.

*****There we go again with LA's stubborness and "principle."

15. Cindy saying Casey would be mother of the year when she really meant that she would be mother of the year by proxy by protecting Casey and Lee.

****Huh? How do you know what CA meant?

16. The continued obfuscation of Law Enforcement and lies to the media.

*****To keep the kid out of jail.

17. Lee disappearing from everywhere following the subpoena for DNA being served.

****LA disappearing from time to time, since the whole thing started. Some of it is, he said, business travel.

18. George leaving the house and living with parents around the time Caylee was brought home and the filing for divorce about the time the paternity test with Jesse was taken. Was he ashamed of Lee or was it a gambling habit?

****George being thrown out by CA, because of a Net gambling habit, per CA's brother.

19. Lee not coming around before this when George was home.

****Huh? Link, please!

20. The name - Cay-Lee - named by Cindy when Cindy was the first to hold the child.

****Common Irish name meaning, "slender." Google it to SEE how common. KC is apparently proud of some Irish in her background. Shamrock tat and "caseyomarie." 'Casey" is another Irish name, BTW, meaning, "vigilant." Looks like the fam has a bit of a tradition, there.

I think it was curious how Dr. Baden on Fox suggested they know the father when he looked at the latest FBI report.

*****So, he said it was LA?

It is also my knowledge now that Rob Dick and the L. Padilla team had access to the paternity reports with Jesse and he has been waiting patiently for the DNA tests to confirm what they think they know. This might explain how Casey's phone bills were paid if she were to have the outward responsibility of taking care of the child, whereby Lee had some financial responsibility to Casey and Caylee.

****Except CA says SHE financially supported Caylee all her life. Not LA.

I don't think it is an excuse by any means, but it would explain some things that have people wondering. I guess it comes down to this if true:

1. They found out that night that Caylee is gone.
2. Cindy and George cleaned the car out, laundered items in the car and removed potential evidence.
3. They all attempted to get the date of the 9th straight corresponding to the woman found raped and murdered around that time.
4. They obfuscated LE by sending on wild goosechases
5. They let Casey know at the bond hearing that "there is no evidence" and a thumbs up by George.
6. Deny and backtrack over previous statements.
7. Throw off search efforts.
8. Make money off the deal one way or another for defense and for the future benefit of the family.
9. Now it is public relations and money deals.
10. Meanwhile who knows where Caylee's body is at. They don't care.

*****All about protecting KC from JAIL. And, the family from disgrace of JAIL.



Thie above seems a bit of a stretch, and personal interpretation.

What symptoms of grooming do you see?

Knowing that the groomer must be more intelligent, more persuasive/manipulative, and more confident than the groomee.. are you SURE you see LA as a groomer of KC?

You appear to be very passionate about the incest idea. But, I think you are WAY off the mark.

[Brini]

Cindy’s behavior, the stories that she has told about who Caylee’s father is and the stories that she has allowed Casey to propagate all tend to point to a family ‘secret’.
It does appear that Cindy does not want something to be found out. Is it just that Casey was extremely promiscuous or is there something more?

Rape is also something that may have happened to Casey and although many cases of rape by a stranger or casual friend are never reported I would have thought by now Casey would have at least told her mother and at this point I don’t think Cindy would have felt the need to keep that a secret any longer. I could be wrong. If it was something that had happen to Cindy herself and she never dealt with it she may not been able to handle the same thing happening to Casey. That same fact may also play into incest. To acknowledge it with Casey means she has to face her own past. Cindy’s controlling behavior comes from somewhere. Cindy’s own past may be why Casey is like she is.

My initial thought when LP came out with the 'hint' that Lee A may be the father of Caylee the main purpose was to 'shake the tree' to see what fell out. Claim the father may be the brother and someone would fess up and come out with the actual name or potential names of the father to prove it was not Lee.
LP set the bait to see who would take it and what they would do with.

As far as LE wanting to know whom the father is would be because this was originally a kidnapping case so any relative that may have possibly involvement would need to be identified.

Now that this is a murder case and they have charged Casey I would think that the main reason to know who the father is would play to motive. Was Casey receiving some type of support? Even if nothing showed up on the books and this father stopped support would this be a reason for Casey killing her daughter.
Then I would also think that the prosecution would have to be prepared with information to dispute whatever the defense attempts to throw out there as ‘someone else is responsible’.
If LE can determine who the father is the prosecution reduces the risk of being blindsided in court with a theory of reasonable doubt from the defense.
From what I can see at this point with the evidence reasonable doubt by JB is the only thing he has.

It was not all that long ago that it was the norm for family members to marry other family members. You only have to go back a couple of hundred years to find it common for this to include 1st cousins as well. Society has a short memory and society also has many ‘blind’ spots. Incest by force happens everyday by fathers, brothers and uncles and the ages that it starts vary greatly. Unfortunately society is now only just starting to come to grips with this fact and the unwillingness to understand or even entertain this fact is why it continues to happen. How many girls have been a victim and to this day have never told a soul. They continue to carry the burden in fear that others will find out and blame them. Many do blame themselves. It is what they are lead to believe not only by the perpetrator but also by US, society. If not recognized, acknowledged and treated it carries into many areas of this person’s life. This type of abuse sets up the victim for a lifetime of mental anguish causing dysfunction. Dysfunction begets dysfunction.

Lee being the father is not really that far fetched. Yes it would be incest but it also may have been consensual incest and not from abuse or force. Another member of the family could have fathered Caylee as well and this could include George, one of the grandfathers, uncles or male cousins.

Continuing silence from Casey on whom the father is to be expected. The continued silence on whom the father is from Cindy at this point becomes suspect. Cindy gave LE a name in the one interview. It no longer severed any purpose to keep quite. The question remain was that name correct? Cindy claimed that legal papers had been drawn up and if LE found this to be not true, something that we do not yet know, then that would make it even a stronger possibility that a family member is Caylee’s father. The only other possibility is someone of prominence or power that would have a means of influence over the family to stay quite.

As always just my opinion.

Incest is possible- anything is possible. But, not indicated.

Continuing silence from KC/the family can easily be explained by what they said-- they don't know who the father is. Rick said KC was impregnated at a specific party, where there was more than one contact.

We don't KNOW whether KC was normal and well-behaved as a child. All we know about KC prior to this is the opinion of one of her teachers.

The women appear to be dominent in this family-- not the men.

The family secret is... the daughter of the house is a sociopath and habitual thief.

MOO.

[Brini]

Excellent post! Thank you so much. This is exactly what i was looking for.
You know I looked over your list and I see where people get the feeling. It was funny the last one on your list- boldened by me- was the one that stuck out the most for me. That is odd in my book. I have 2 brothers and would never call my kid half my name/half his name. Weird to me. Was one of the grandfathers a "Lee"?

What do you think of the fact there were only 2 calls between LA and KC. Another phone? KC trying to exert independence? Rebellion?

Also, has it been determined that she was indeed employee of the year or was that a fake? Just wondering if it fits in the whole scheme of things. It is my understanding that she simply ran a kiosk in the park and was a simple hourly worker. Nothing wrong with hourly working, just not something she cannot get another one of.

Ultimately, I see where most who believe this is a possibility is her seemingly "normal" up until Caylee was born. Sociopaths typically develop around that time too (but usually with previous signs). But perhaps some event (like rape, incest or some life altering event) precipitated this.

Honestly when JB said someday we will all understand why KC did this, I guess if this is what happened to her then I would understand more than I do now, but I know victims of incest that would never do these things. Most of them I know have dissociative or multiple personality disorders. Maybe this does fit KC?? I don't know.

I also read posts about 'Who cares who the Dad is?' I think it is extremely important to determine this to rule him out as a suspect. At least for this WS'er.

Thanks for mulling this around with me.

How do we know she was "normal", before this? CA told her childhood friend, Ryan, to "stay away from KC, because she's a sociopath."

No, sociopathy does not show first onset in adulthood. Pregnancy is not causal, either.

Pretty sure if there was something sinister and essential to the case about Caylee's paternity, LE would have long since investigated it.

Bottom line is.. legal insanity means that you didn't know what you were doing was wrong. She DID.

No, a rape would not cause sociopathic personality disorder. It could cause PTSD.

[Broderick]

Being labeled with PTSD or as a victim of incest is not going to cause her to get away with murder. The labels might help explain some of her behavior, but she is still responsible for her actions. I'm sure the defense will try to claim she has a mental illness, but I don't think it will get them very far. You can be mentally ill and still know right from wrong.

Don't feel bad. I have a strong reaction to the entire incest theory too.

Absolutely positively correct. It would help to explain but never excuse. If it ends up being true, I hope at the least it helps other families never foment this type of situation.

Why was Cindy seeing a family counselor and when? I think that information came out and was AFTER George and her reconciled and the divorce filing was canceled in 2007.

[Recovering-Lurker]

Incest is possible- anything is possible. But, not indicated.

Continuing silence from KC/the family can easily be explained by what they said-- they don't know who the father is. Rick said KC was impregnated at a specific party, where there was more than one contact.

We don't KNOW whether KC was normal and well-behaved as a child. All we know about KC prior to this is the opinion of one of her teachers.

The women appear to be dominent in this family-- not the men.

The family secret is... the daughter of the house is a sociopath and habitual thief.

MOO.

Rick didn't know for sure. He was just throwing it out there, like, she could've gotten pregnant at some Christmas party.

[Broderick]

Well, she has no symptoms of PTSD. If she claimed that or incest (which I doubt that she can) it wouldn't help. Incest victims and PTSD sufferers do not characteristically kill their kids.

She'd still have to prove she didn't know what she was doing. She can't.

Incest victims are a large part of the female inmate population that are there because of violent crimes. Look it up. 60% of female violent offenders were victims of sexual abuse as children and half of those were with family abuse. Murder is a violent crime. It is very rare for a woman to kill their children, maybe not as rare as the documented 200 cases a year but rare nonetheless.

I agree that most familial sexual abuse by brothers and fathers and stepfather are cultivated and not violently abused. Almost all sexual abuse with children is far from violent and more coerced over time in a non-aggressive non-violent manner. You probably know that already.

[Brini]

Absolutely positively correct. It would help to explain but never excuse. If it ends up being true, I hope at the least it helps other families never foment this type of situation.

Why was Cindy seeing a family counselor and when? I think that information came out and was AFTER George and her reconciled and the divorce filing was canceled in 2007.

She was seeing a counselor about KC's irresponsibility. She wanted KC to stop "mooching and leaching." (CA's words)

[Brini]

Incest victims are a large part of the female inmate population that are there because of violent crimes. Look it up. 60% of female violent offenders were victims of sexual abuse as children and half of those were with family abuse. Murder is a violent crime. It is very rare for a woman to kill their children, maybe not as rare as the documented 200 cases a year but rare nonetheless.

I agree that most familial sexual abuse by brothers and fathers and stepfather are cultivated and not violently abused. Almost all sexual abuse with children is far from violent and more coerced over time in a non-aggressive non-violent manner. You probably know that already.

Link, please re: most female inmates being incest victims.

What percentage are sociopaths? It is not rare for a sociopathic mother to kill her kids. ID has had a few shows on that, BTW.

I think if you research, you will find that sociopathy is causal to child murder, with or without sexual abuse. If incest was causal, we'd have a tremendous increase in child murder.

So, you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson, and Bianchi were ALSO incest victims? They were all sociopathic murderers.

What grooming symptons/behaviors are you seeing?

Would you say LA is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than KC? Those are groomer qualifications.

[Meagain]

Caylee had no real father. Casey is apparently a Hermaphrodite. I understand earthworms are also but I might be mistaken.

[Broderick]

Thie above seems a bit of a stretch, and personal interpretation.

What symptoms of grooming do you see?

Knowing that the groomer must be more intelligent, more persuasive/manipulative, and more confident than the groomee.. are you SURE you see LA as a groomer of KC?

You appear to be very passionate about the incest idea. But, I think you are WAY off the mark.

We shall see if I am off the mark. I highly doubt it, but like I said before nobody wins. You seem passionate to diagnose from afar as well, and I care less about the diagnosis and care more about putting the pieces of the puzzle as a whole together. Nobody wins, and I will continue on putting what pieces I think fit together until evidence proves me right or proves me wrong. Not going to argue about it because it is like arguing with those that think Caylee has been hauled off to the Batcave in Gotham City by some unknown assailant that is holding her hostage. I am not posting to be right or wrong, just to put the theories and advance some understanding to the whole picture as it fits today.

[Broderick]

She was seeing a counselor about KC's irresponsibility. She wanted KC to stop "mooching and leaching." (CA's words)

Now you believe everything Cindy say. Okay. I don't.

[Recovering-Lurker]

Link, please re: most female inmates being incest victims.

What percentage are sociopaths? It is not rare for a sociopathic mother to kill her kids. ID has had a few shows on that, BTW.

I think if you research, you will find that sociopathy is causal to child murder, with or without sexual abuse. If incest was causal, we'd have a tremendous increase in child murder.

So, you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson, and Bianchi were ALSO incest victims? They were all sociopathic murderers.

What grooming symptons/behaviors are you seeing?

Would you say LA is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than KC? Those are groomer qualifications.

Would you say that Casey is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than Lee? Maybe she was the initiator. It's still incest if that is the case.

[Broderick]

Link, please re: most female inmates being incest victims.

What percentage are sociopaths? It is not rare for a sociopathic mother to kill her kids. ID has had a few shows on that, BTW.

I think if you research, you will find that sociopathy is causal to child murder, with or without sexual abuse. If incest was causal, we'd have a tremendous increase in child murder.

So, you think Bundy, Ramirez, Peterson, and Bianchi were ALSO incest victims? They were all sociopathic murderers.

What grooming symptons/behaviors are you seeing?

Would you say LA is more charismatic, manipulative, and stronger willed than KC? Those are groomer qualifications.



There are tens of thousands of cases each year of sexual abuse by fathers and brothers, and many more not reported. I think you think or are trying to portray that one is either all the way sociopathic or they are not sociopathic. I would hope you know that is far from reality. Sociopathic members of society can be completely normal for much of their life. Serial murderers tend to be 30 plus years old. It is cultivated through time so your scenarios fit, but I do not believe this is the case. I think Casey entered through time an alternative reality of sorts from excessive guilt, shame, and enabling. A nurtured sociopath of sorts. There are about 200 cases documented on average per year of mothers killing their children. You brought up four men. Men are different than woman and I would hope you know that so comparing them to Casey would be quite a stretch. As far as grooming, who knows. I don't think Lee would have forced himself upon her in the least, but the four year difference in age would help in assuming if the period of abuse (averaging 7 years) started well before conception, it is abuse. I do think the opportunity was there and they both lived at home well after Lee graduated from high school and well before he met Mallory.

[TripleA]

Maybe Caylee's father was "in the system" and when they ran the DNA they came up with a name. Maybe that is why they say they know who the father is and don't seem to be following that lead as a possibility.

[belleyes]

There are tens of thousands of cases each year of sexual abuse by fathers and brothers, and many more not reported. I think you think or are trying to portray that one is either all the way sociopathic or they are not sociopathic. I would hope you know that is far from reality. Sociopathic members of society can be completely normal for much of their life. Serial murderers tend to be 30 plus years old. It is cultivated through time so your scenarios fit, but I do not believe this is the case. I think Casey entered through time an alternative reality of sorts from excessive guilt, shame, and enabling. A nurtured sociopath of sorts. There are about 200 cases documented on average per year of mothers killing their children. You brought up four men. Men are different than woman and I would hope you know that so comparing them to Casey would be quite a stretch. As far as grooming, who knows. I don't think Lee would have forced himself upon her in the least, but the four year difference in age would help in assuming if the period of abuse (averaging 7 years) started well before conception, it is abuse. I do think the opportunity was there and they both lived at home well after Lee graduated from high school and well before he met Mallory.

Thank You, I agree with everything you've mentioned...you have a knack for verbalizing my thoughts....but with much more clarity:)
Brini when I commented on "grooming" I was not suggesting this was the case only rebutting the "forced" statement---I am only observing and doing some "armchair analysis". Imo to make a d/x of sociopathy or any other "damning d/x" is unjust, without having spoken to family/KC and collected case history. That said----to me the family's b/x is indicative of sexual abuse (1 out of 3 girls will be a victim)

[Broderick]

Thank You, I agree with everything you've mentioned...you have a knack for verbalizing my thoughts....but with much more clarity:)
Brini when I commented on "grooming" I was not suggesting this was the case only rebutting the "forced" statement---I am only observing and doing some "armchair analysis". Imo to make a d/x of sociopathy or any other "damning d/x" is unjust, without having spoken to family/KC and collected case history. That said----to me the family's b/x is indicative of sexual abuse (1 out of 3 girls will be a victim)

I appreciate that. I don't believe it, but thanks. Seemingly it is a far more uncomfortable subject for many than something as rare as someone killing their child out of spite and resentment. I think it relates more to the uncomfortableness around this taboo subject, and the understandably harsh rebuke and response you get when you broach it one way or another. I don't shy away from it, because it is something that should be discussed because it makes sense.

Today. No denials and no rebuttals from the family. I think the silence is deafening because if you follow the family, and Casey as well, they will deny and disagree on the most minutia of subjects but not this. In Casey's interview at one time while she was uhah, uhuh, and hmmhuming responses, it was quite telling that she would get defensive/responsive about something as simple as a phone, or a chair, but not to the murder of her own daughter.

[Brini]

Rick didn't know for sure. He was just throwing it out there, like, she could've gotten pregnant at some Christmas party.

He said the Christmas party on 12/04/04.

[Brini]

Now you believe everything Cindy say. Okay. I don't.

The counselor also advised her to get KC out of the house, and encourage her to stand on her own, per CA, and per Rick.

[Brini]

There are tens of thousands of cases each year of sexual abuse by fathers and brothers, and many more not reported. I think you think or are trying to portray that one is either all the way sociopathic or they are not sociopathic. I would hope you know that is far from reality. Sociopathic members of society can be completely normal for much of their life. Serial murderers tend to be 30 plus years old. It is cultivated through time so your scenarios fit, but I do not believe this is the case. I think Casey entered through time an alternative reality of sorts from excessive guilt, shame, and enabling. A nurtured sociopath of sorts. There are about 200 cases documented on average per year of mothers killing their children. You brought up four men. Men are different than woman and I would hope you know that so comparing them to Casey would be quite a stretch. As far as grooming, who knows. I don't think Lee would have forced himself upon her in the least, but the four year difference in age would help in assuming if the period of abuse (averaging 7 years) started well before conception, it is abuse. I do think the opportunity was there and they both lived at home well after Lee graduated from high school and well before he met Mallory.

But, sociopaths do do not feel shame or guilt. So, how would this proposed incestuos relationship move one to murder?

And, yes, I do know that there are tens of thousands-- prolly more than that, of incest cases in the country. In fact, I can tell you which regions of the country most of them come from. I was a psychaitric case manager for almost 20 years. I just do not see anything but speculation, on your part, in this case.

[Brini]

Maybe Caylee's father was "in the system" and when they ran the DNA they came up with a name. Maybe that is why they say they know who the father is and don't seem to be following that lead as a possibility.

We don't even know that they DO know who the father is.

[Brini]

Thank You, I agree with everything you've mentioned...you have a knack for verbalizing my thoughts....but with much more clarity:)
Brini when I commented on "grooming" I was not suggesting this was the case only rebutting the "forced" statement---I am only observing and doing some "armchair analysis". Imo to make a d/x of sociopathy or any other "damning d/x" is unjust, without having spoken to family/KC and collected case history. That said----to me the family's b/x is indicative of sexual abuse (1 out of 3 girls will be a victim)

The unjust dx of sociopathy was first presented by CA, herself. It has since been echoed by a number of talking head psychiatrists on TV and the Net.

Are you saying THAT "dx" is unjust to the family, but your "dx" of incest is just?

MOO

[JBean]

Please Post about KC's Psych Profile here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73033&highlight=profile)

not here.

[CanManEh]

Sorry I got this conclusion in my mind kind of late. I have been trying to come to an explanation in the case that made sense not only of Casey's behavior but the family's behavior. In the beginning I kind of thought there might be truth in the kidnapping or a biological parent on the father's side taking the child and then I quickly learned that wasn't the case. Then I thought perhaps it was an accident and more information came out that led me to believe it was premeditated to a degree, albeit rushed. Now after reviewing everything, I found there was no simple explanation for everything until I put the scenario of a Lee and Casey union as Padilla suggested and now it seems to make more sense of everyone, and everything involved.

Some people probably see the whole picture faster than me, as I had to come to some of what I am saying through time. I will give credit where credit is due, and if you were on that train of thought much earlier you deserve the credit for it.

Im sorry Broderick i wasn't trying to start anything its just when i heard that the night it was on dana pretzer show and then he stopped mom n dad from doing lie detector tests and from helping anymore and the dna i just had said this very thing about 5 times and i dont know no one seemed to say anything about it after i mentioned it anyway no harm done Im with you lets just bring her home no matter what has happened before the tradegy she just needs to come home and sort the rest out after ...

[Broderick]

Im sorry Broderick i wasn't trying to start anything its just when i heard that the night it was on dana pretzer show and then he stopped mom n dad from doing lie detector tests and from helping anymore and the dna i just had said this very thing about 5 times and i dont know no one seemed to say anything about it after i mentioned it anyway no harm done Im with you lets just bring her home no matter what has happened before the tradegy she just needs to come home and sort the rest out after ...

I know you weren't. I think you were correct right from the start. We will see how it plays out. Since the Anthony family seems to have tossed the little girl aside, I hope America's girl as I call her finds a proper resting spot and I hope she is never forgotten.

[JustanotherJane]

Incest is possible- anything is possible. But, not indicated.

Continuing silence from KC/the family can easily be explained by what they said-- they don't know who the father is. Rick said KC was impregnated at a specific party, where there was more than one contact.

We don't KNOW whether KC was normal and well-behaved as a child. All we know about KC prior to this is the opinion of one of her teachers.

The women appear to be dominent in this family-- not the men.

The family secret is... the daughter of the house is a sociopath and habitual thief.

MOO.
Wouldn't Christmas (or thereabouts) have been too late for conception? Who has a Christmas party as early as the 4th?

[JustanotherJane]

But, sociopaths do do not feel shame or guilt. So, how would this proposed incestuos relationship move one to murder?

And, yes, I do know that there are tens of thousands-- prolly more than that, of incest cases in the country. In fact, I can tell you which regions of the country most of them come from. I was a psychaitric case manager for almost 20 years. I just do not see anything but speculation, on your part, in this case.

I personally believe that incest is a possibility. I would say that guilt or shame as a motivator to kill is incorrect. I'd be more inclined to say anger, resentment and depression are more likely motivators. I think to put it in the simplest terms, she just didn't want Cindy controlling her anymore. It wasn't about "Tony", although he could have been a motivator, anybody who could get her out of the house would have sufficed. It was about getting away from Cindy through whatever means possible, unfortunately.

[Pink Panther]

I really don't get the sense that KC had any meaningful relationships with men. It sounds more like she used them, just like she used everyone else. For shelter, to party or for sex. Tony R could certainly vouch for that! Lol.

[Broderick]

I personally believe that incest is a possibility. I would say that guilt or shame as a motivator to kill is incorrect. I'd be more inclined to say anger, resentment and depression are more likely motivators. I think to put it in the simplest terms, she just didn't want Cindy controlling her anymore. It wasn't about "Tony", although he could have been a motivator, anybody who could get her out of the house would have sufficed. It was about getting away from Cindy through whatever means possible, unfortunately.

I agree that Tony wasn't the motivating factor at all. I think Casey even put it as a safe place. I think he was a mere convenience to escape the situation to a degree which caught up to her on several occasions when she would be awake sweating. She has a conscience. She might have so much to lose and she might be protecting the family and herself all the same.

[Broderick]

I really don't get the sense that KC had any meaningful relationships with men. It sounds more like she used them, just like she used everyone else. For shelter, to party or for sex. Tony R could certainly vouch for that! Lol.

That is a hallmark symptom for someone that was abused at a young age by men close to her. I think if Lee is the father, than this would be one characteristic that came as a result of that. She was unable to be close and always seemed to have a backup guy(s) because perhaps there was fear of losing someone and being with nobody. I hate to say it, but if her first real feelings in that way were with someone in the family, it would be very hard for her to duplicate in subsequent relationships when that person is still "right there". Sick, sad, but feasible.

[Recovering-Lurker]

He said the Christmas party on 12/04/04.

Wouldn't Christmas (or thereabouts) have been too late for conception? Who has a Christmas party as early as the 4th?

Yes, December would be too early for Caylee's conception. I've never seen Rick say anything about a Christas party on 12/4/04. I have only seen him say this:
"I think she got knocked up at a party around Christmas, got drunk and maybe banged a bunch of guys that night and don’t know who the dad is. That is my theory."

[Broderick]

Please Post about KC's Psych Profile here (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73033&highlight=profile)

not here.

Hey Jbean, if one is discussing the possibility of Lee being the father, I think some of the psychological assessments and patterns are a bit relevant in wrapping the mind around the potential. I think she exhibits classic incestuous abuse symptoms to a high degree that exponentially developed through enabling while being saddled with the burdens that resulted from the abuse. It resulted in premeditated murder for relief and spite. JMO, but it is the crux of what I see in developing and discussing the theory. We shall soon find out.

Anyway, I didn't want to do something wrong. Please advise.

[Pink Panther]

That is a hallmark symptom for someone that was abused at a young age by men close to her. I think if Lee is the father, than this would be one characteristic that came as a result of that. She was unable to be close and always seemed to have a backup guy(s) because perhaps there was fear of losing someone and being with nobody. I hate to say it, but if her first real feelings in that way were with someone in the family, it would be very hard for her to duplicate in subsequent relationships when that person is still "right there". Sick, sad, but feasible.
I think that it could also simply be an indicator that she is a sociopath. They use people and fake sentiments. They don't form meaningful relationships either.

[Broderick]

Yes, December would be too early for Caylee's conception. I've never seen Rick say anything about a Christas party on 12/4/04. I have only seen him say this:
"I think she got knocked up at a party around Christmas, got drunk and maybe banged a bunch of guys that night and don’t know who the dad is. That is my theory."

I was under the impression that he had no clue how, but offered up a theory or two based on what they learned of her behavior patterns.

[Recovering-Lurker]

I was under the impression that he had no clue how, but offered up a theory or two based on what they learned of her behavior patterns.

Yup. That was my impression as well.

[JBean]

Hey Jbean, if one is discussing the possibility of Lee being the father, I think some of the psychological assessments and patterns are a bit relevant in wrapping the mind around the potential. I think she exhibits classic incestuous abuse symptoms to a high degree that exponentially developed through enabling while being saddled with the burdens that resulted from the abuse. It resulted in premeditated murder for relief and spite. JMO, but it is the crux of what I see in developing and discussing the theory. We shall soon find out.

Anyway, I didn't want to do something wrong. Please advise.
The conversation has turned to her psych profile. I agree that some issues may come up in the conversation, but now the conversation is not who the father is but what her profile is.Please take it to that thread.

This thread is too long. If anyone feels compelled to start another thread, please do so. but please discuss the paternal possibilities if you must :)