PDA

View Full Version : Decomp smell **REVISIT**



Pages : 1 [2] 3

Nore
09-25-2008, 05:06 PM
I believe that he said that embalming will stop the smell from progressing but it will not always remove the smell from the body. Once decomposition has started it isn't always possible to control the smell, even with embalming.
----------
If I recall right that is what he said.My husband died in the hospital.He suffered an aneurysm (brain) at 1~1:30 am on a Wednesday.They brought him round and put him on a ventilator. On Thurs.11am I could detect fine black lines at corners of his mouth and he was cold.Amy and I had the life support removed.He was "alive" with the machine but I dont think anything was functioning except heartbeat and lungs.They refrigerated him and was picked up within an hour.O/T it is good to talk this all over ahead.We did.

impatientredhead
09-25-2008, 05:27 PM
Her pants that were in the car DID have that smell so Cindy washed them

everything in the car had the smell on it, the police reports regarding the items they took the first night said that Cindy went into the bedroom to gather up the items that had come out of the car (backpack etc....) and those items had the same smell

I don't think Casey was driving her car around after the 18th. I think by the 27th it smelled bad enough that it was noticeable and she had to ditch it.

My question is if the body was in the trunk say the 17th and 18th, in summer temperatures, would it continue smell worse and worse after the body was removed? I just don't see the body being around on the 27th. Ten days of decomp in summer heat is a long time.

natsound
09-25-2008, 05:57 PM
If this has already been said, sorry. I haven't read every post in this thread. I believe Casey's backing the car into the garage 3x the week after June 15th was to try to wash the smell out of the trunk. She couldn't get it washed out. Then she starts telling friends something died in her car... definitely an animal.

Did we ever find out when the chloroform computer search was? Could she have searched after the fact, to find out if it's useful as a cleaning agent?

amethyst
09-25-2008, 06:38 PM
If this has already been said, sorry. I haven't read every post in this thread. I believe Casey's backing the car into the garage 3x the week after June 15th was to try to wash the smell out of the trunk. She couldn't get it washed out. Then she starts telling friends something died in her car... definitely an animal.

Did we ever find out when the chloroform computer search was? Could she have searched after the fact, to find out if it's useful as a cleaning agent?

There is a new thread stating that a Cindy Anthony interview will be released tomorrow along with some forensics on Caseys laptop. Maybe there will be some information about the chloroform searches there.

AZRiverRat
09-25-2008, 06:39 PM
If this has already been said, sorry. I haven't read every post in this thread. I believe Casey's backing the car into the garage 3x the week after June 15th was to try to wash the smell out of the trunk. She couldn't get it washed out. Then she starts telling friends something died in her car... definitely an animal.

Did we ever find out when the chloroform computer search was? Could she have searched after the fact, to find out if it's useful as a cleaning agent?


That smell would permeate any soft surface. It would be in the fibers of the seats, upholstery, and carpet, and it would linger for a very long time.....especially in an airtight car. Remember they could smell it when they walked up to the car at the impound yard, before they went home, got the keys and came back to pick it up.

SleuthyGal
09-25-2008, 07:04 PM
I meant to say when George got the gas cans out of the trunk of the car on whatever day that was...I have been curious if there was any smell then and if so, why he hasn't said as much.

natsound
09-25-2008, 07:18 PM
If this has already been said, sorry. I haven't read every post in this thread. I believe Casey's backing the car into the garage 3x the week after June 15th was to try to wash the smell out of the trunk. She couldn't get it washed out. Then she starts telling friends something died in her car... definitely an animal.

Did we ever find out when the chloroform computer search was? Could she have searched after the fact, to find out if it's useful as a cleaning agent?

I've thought a little further about this. LE did find hair and a stain in the trunk, so it couldn't have been washed that thoroughly. I still think this is a viable theory though.... perhaps Casey missed a few spots along the edges, or the hair/stain just didn't come up and Casey couldn't see it.

leophoenix
09-25-2008, 07:24 PM
A curious reconstruction of a death scene in a car was done on Myth Busters a year or two ago. They put two pigs in the driver's seat of a car with the windows closed and in high heat.

The myth was that they couldn't sell a car in which someone had died in because the smell couldn't be eliminated.

They stripped the car and had someone professional come in to spray it with chemicals to rid decomp smells. Even went so far to spray the inside of the car with a water hose. They could not sell the car even with all the interior upholstery, seats, carpets removed because the smell had even permeated the metal and plastics of the car. The car was a Corvette to make sure that people would be interested in the car. Even when the price dropped to 100.00 nobody would take it.

kiki the parrot
09-25-2008, 07:25 PM
Such a pleasant thread... eesh... Can we know for certain there was not already decomp in trunk when GA found gas cans (on 6/24)? That is whether Caylee might not have been already transferred to (on 6/18 after she borrows shovel when neighbor reports her car backed in), and from, the trunk and smell just had not gotten horrendous yet? Can't put my finger on it but something about gas can story doesn't pass the smell test either. But we know Mr. Birch was present when GA first opened trunk. It always struck me as strange too that once car IS finally picked up--July 15, when Cindy decides to go find Casey--where exactly is GA?? Reportedly he doesn't answer Cindy's calls nor show up for some period of time. I guess in the end LE's really only got GA's word as to the trunk contents/smell back on 6/24.

natsound
09-25-2008, 07:30 PM
Such a pleasant thread... eesh... Can we know for certain there was not already decomp in trunk when GA found gas cans (on 6/24)? That is whether Caylee might not have been already transferred to (on 6/18 after she borrows shovel when neighbor reports her car backed in), and from, the trunk and smell just had not gotten horrendous yet? Can't put my finger on it but something about gas can story doesn't pass the smell test either. But we know Mr. Birch was present when GA first opened trunk. It always struck me as strange too that once car IS finally picked up--July 15, when Cindy decides to go find Casey--where exactly is GA?? Reportedly he doesn't answer Cindy's calls nor show up for some period of time. I guess in the end LE's really only got GA's word as to the trunk contents/smell back on 6/24.


It seems there was indeed decomp in the car when GA found gas cans. Remember, Casey shoved the gas cans at him, per Lee's statement. We don't know how close GA got to the car. Perhaps he smelled the overwhelming stench, but as the grandfather of the deceased, immediately blocked it out.

carole
09-25-2008, 07:37 PM
It seems there was indeed decomp in the car when GA found gas cans. Remember, Casey shoved the gas cans at him, per Lee's statement. We don't know how close GA got to the car. Perhaps he smelled the overwhelming stench, but as the grandfather of the deceased, immediately blocked it out.

I believe this is why the gas cans were taken as evidence. To see if there was any forensic evidence on them.

kiki the parrot
09-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Ok the whole idea that LE allowed the reeking car, and its reeking contents to sit for TWO DAYS AFTER Caylee was reported missing just makes me nuts! Not only does this give former LE/auto salesman GA ample opp'y to "detail" car, but CA plenty of time to spottreat, sort and sanitize the laundry and other contents, oy... I'm still convinced, as I've said in other posts, that chloroform WAS used simply to destroy odor/dna... but the nagging question still remains by WHOM. Again, LE has known date for searches and more precise info.

kiki the parrot
09-25-2008, 08:02 PM
If (as I suspect) Caylee was moved just once from backyard (then driven to wherever she was left permanently), and she was no longer in trunk when car abandoned 6/27, there are two probable scenarios: either she was still in the backyard when Casey unexpectedly popped in "for some clothes" and found GA surprisingly home on break--after which she had to postpone/return later for a very decomposed Caylee (who could have then been disposed of anytime during the next ? days) OR... she may have already moved Caylee (on the day she was seen backing up) from the backyard (after which she could have had her inside that trunk for a very extended period of x. THIS latter scenario seems more likely because of the possibility fluids may have been allowed to seep over time. I don't know... I still question whether she would even have been capable herself of doing the final horrendous disposal, I think she may have been too far into denial driving around all this time unable-or unwilling-to face her daughter's decaying body. I know one thing: U of T Body Farm knows EXACTLY what stage those larvae, maggots and flies were in and again has much better info to determine timeline. Probably gases tell them alot about for how long, and how recently, Caylee was inside.

kathyn2
09-25-2008, 08:46 PM
I hope there is no other thread on this (I thought it odd but I could not find one). If there is, then I hope it will be moved.

Anyway, in my opinion, since the trunk of the car smelled so bad for so long, it seems that decomposition fluids must have leaked in the trunk. If they did, and it seems they did, wouldn't there be DNA in those fluids? Nothing has ever been mentioned about that stain.

If the car smelled so bad, and Lee says GA was a clean aholic with the cars, how come he didn't scrub that smell out as soon as he got the car home. Has anyone ever mentioned whether the car had been washed inside and out?

mkay882
09-25-2008, 08:50 PM
I'm hoping there is some DNA they can use!

In JG's interview with LE he said he will give the DNA profile card he received when he had the DNA test done on baby Caylee after she was born.

So now we KNOW they have Caylee's DNA. And we know it is a reliable source for comparison.

jnTexas
09-25-2008, 08:59 PM
IMO they tested and they are not going to release it. they are hoping she gives up the body so that they will have an air tight case.

TigerBalm
09-25-2008, 09:09 PM
Regarding the stain, sure I would like to know but honestly, why release any scientific information to Baez and his team before they absolutely have to.

Since George was such a clean aholic, the defense is going to have a hard time with "the hairs and stain have been in there forever" excuse IMO.

If I recall correctly, George was starting a new job that day, so maybe he didn't have time before he left for work (who knows).

I am surprised they had that car in their garage considering how terrible it smelled, then again I guess they didn't want the neighbors to smell it either.

HRCODEPINK
09-25-2008, 10:09 PM
This is gross, but I saw a show on discovery a couple weeks ago and didn't want to say anything until it came up, but they said that even in normal/average temperatures (whatever that means) a body in a trunk will be "squishy" and leaking within 24 hours because it is so much hotter in the trunk. Sorry.

As far as the stain goes, I am all for waiting, as much as I want to see what they have, until they have an airtight case, but my guess would be this. Stain glowed under a blacklight...there is DNA there.

Fuzzymuffin
09-25-2008, 10:30 PM
There are a number of shows from Discovery on Youtube. Like the ones about the crime scene cleaners:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=crime+scene+clean+up&search_type=&aq=f

Amity
09-25-2008, 10:58 PM
I hope there is no other thread on this (I thought it odd but I could not find one). If there is, then I hope it will be moved.

Anyway, in my opinion, since the trunk of the car smelled so bad for so long, it seems that decomposition fluids must have leaked in the trunk. If they did, and it seems they did, wouldn't there be DNA in those fluids? Nothing has ever been mentioned about that stain.

If the car smelled so bad, and Lee says GA was a clean aholic with the cars, how come he didn't scrub that smell out as soon as he got the car home. Has anyone ever mentioned whether the car had been washed inside and out?


Kathyn,
This is exactly what I was thinking too.
The decomp 'juices' (sooooo sorry for the detail) might have shown as a small spot on the trunk carpet but might have seeped down past the carpet.. Once on the plastic (or whatever solid surface the truck is made from) it spread out.
Also, the surface of carpet might have been cleaned of that little spot but no telling how big the spot was once it seeped in.
Scrub the surface all ya want but what's underneath continues to um...... rot more. The more rotting, the more smell.
Dang, I hate talking like this regarding a baby...makes me so, so, so sad to think in these terms.

reefshadow
09-25-2008, 10:59 PM
Hello everyone -- first post here from a long time lurker.

When I was ten, our family took a two week vacation. Probably during the first couple of days we were gone, our housesitter died in our home. When we came home, the smell of decomposition was unbelievable. The smell of a decomposing human body is unique and distinctive and like nothing else.

We had to move out of the house for a month while disaster services completed a full restoration, which included carpet and drywall replacement and disinfection with extremely strong, very specific chemicals. Everything in the house had to be cleaned; we lost a lot of our belongings, as the smell of death permeated objects that could not be cleaned or salvaged. To say it was vile is an understatement. It was an extremely traumatic event for our family.

The reason I'm telling this story is that even years later, occasionally we would catch a feint whiff of decomposition. It obviously wasn't as strong or new as when the incident first happened, but it was, like I said, a very distinctive smell. It finally stopped, but it just goes to show that the gases and chemicals that a decomposing body produces is just insane!

If a body were left in a car long enough to decompose to the point of smelling, I personally would have no doubt that the smell could linger in the car long after the body itself was removed. Yes, it's that strong and permeating!

OMG... Making plans to avoid having a house sitter- ever.

Amity
09-25-2008, 11:01 PM
There are a number of shows from Discovery on Youtube. Like the ones about the crime scene cleaners:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=crime+scene+clean+up&search_type=&aq=f


I know that now, FuzzyMuffin as you got me hooked on those Discovery and National Geographic videos online now!
Like I didn't have enough on my plate and now if there is nothing on TV, hubby and I crunch in front of the computer screen and watch one of those crime or death videos. LOL
Shame on you! :crazy:

Rut Roh....I think this is considered waaaay OT for me to respond about these videos.

SWGAL
09-25-2008, 11:05 PM
LE in speaking with Lee talked about receipts Lee had from various stores. I wonder if there were any that showed plastic bags were purchased.
Padilla said last night that he believes Casey put her in a plastic bag and and it tore which then released decomposition in the trunk.

Tonight he is saying she might have dumped the bag in a recycling bin.

Eulalie
09-26-2008, 02:31 AM
That entire story was a made up one to muddy the timeline, and is a completely different one than George told Lee, BEFORE July 29th when Lee gave his sworn statement. He never got near her trunk. She had already thrown her clothes in there and slammed it shut and FORCEFULLY and with CURSING gave his gas cans back: "Here's your f'ing gas cans" was what Lee told the police George told him happened, and George was nowhere near the car.

Your post made me think: why in the world, if the trunk was ground zero for smell, would Casey toss her clothes in there (vs. tossing them on the front seat or something)? I can't see any way she would put even dirty clothes right on top of the smell's source, unless she was desperately using the clothes to obscure George's view of the trunk's contents.

What do you think of this scenario: there was still a body in the trunk the day Lee describes the "here's your f-ing gas cans" incident. George was pushing the gas can issue, so Casey had no choice but to get them from the trunk (to pre-empt him from looking in the trunk himself). To obscure any suspicious bags or bumps in the trunk while she grabbed the cans, she tossed her clothes in as she took the cans out. She gave him attitude and beat it out of there.

Later, George and Cindy create the story of George looking in the trunk because they are trying to establish that there was not a body in the trunk on that date.

okiedokietoo
09-26-2008, 02:40 AM
It seems there was indeed decomp in the car when GA found gas cans. Remember, Casey shoved the gas cans at him, per Lee's statement. We don't know how close GA got to the car. Perhaps he smelled the overwhelming stench, but as the grandfather of the deceased, immediately blocked it out.
Anyone know what the date was when this happened, when George got the gas cans from Casey, the day of the week and time?
George's day off?

magic-cat
09-26-2008, 02:54 AM
We haven't narrowed it down for sure, but it seems it may actually have been sometime between the 21st and the 26th, as it has been established she ran out of gas 2 Friday's in a row, the 2nd of which was the 27th-and the police report was filed on the 24th, and Tony brought her to the house on the 20th to retrieve the gas cans...I think that is all we have so far.:)

okiedokietoo
09-26-2008, 03:05 AM
We haven't narrowed it down for sure, but it seems it may actually have been sometime between the 21st and the 26th, as it has been established she ran out of gas 2 Friday's in a row, the 2nd of which was the 27th-and the police report was filed on the 24th, and Tony brought her to the house on the 20th to retrieve the gas cans...I think that is all we have so far.:)

I'm a wreck!

Lexington
09-26-2008, 06:54 AM
It always struck me as strange too that once car IS finally picked up--July 15, when Cindy decides to go find Casey--where exactly is GA?? Reportedly he doesn't answer Cindy's calls nor show up for some period of time. I guess in the end LE's really only got GA's word as to the trunk contents/smell back on 6/24.

I always wondered about this too and I have found it odd. Did George go to work? A very strange time to go to work after finding the car and the condition it was in. Exactly where was he during these hours. Not only doesn't he answer CA's calls, but LA had to go over to the house because CA was so upset. If he was at work, strange, but that would explain it. If not, very very suspicious. I'm beginning to wonder if the body was still in the trunk and he disposed of it at that time.

natsound
09-26-2008, 07:01 AM
Anyone know what the date was when this happened, when George got the gas cans from Casey, the day of the week and time?
George's day off?

I left my very elaborate time line at work, but I believe the date was the
24th?

Just curious... why do so many of you sleuthers believe the body had been stored in the trunk for more than 24 hours? I hypothesize KC disposed of it as quickly as she could... within 24 hours... and REALLY disposed of it, and that's why she's not sweating it. I get the feeling she knows the body will never be found. I can't imagine she would dump it in a dumpster next to the family car.

ijam
09-26-2008, 07:22 AM
Why didn't LE ask TonE about smell in the car since he admitted he was with her when she got gas cans from parents house..IIRC it was June 20th.

icherish
09-26-2008, 07:25 AM
I left my very elaborate time line at work, but I believe the date was the
24th?

Just curious... why do so many of you sleuthers believe the body had been stored in the trunk for more than 24 hours? I hypothesize KC disposed of it as quickly as she could... within 24 hours... and REALLY disposed of it, and that's why she's not sweating it. I get the feeling she knows the body will never be found. I can't imagine she would dump it in a dumpster next to the family car.

Because the odor which originated in the trunk had saturated the entire car, to the point where it was bowling people over by the time it was discovered nearly 3 weeks later. My hunch is the body most likely would have to be present for more than 24 hours...a couple of days at least, for the gases to penetrate that deeply. Just my non-expert opinion. :) It would be great to hear an FP's take on this.

I do agree with you that Casey feels confident the body will never be found. :mad:

ijam
09-26-2008, 09:08 AM
Why didn't LE ask TonE about smell in the car since he admitted he was with her when she got gas cans from parents house..IIRC it was June 20th.

Never mind..I just reread and it was the week before....

mysterycat
09-26-2008, 09:39 AM
If this has already been said, sorry. I haven't read every post in this thread. I believe Casey's backing the car into the garage 3x the week after June 15th was to try to wash the smell out of the trunk. She couldn't get it washed out. Then she starts telling friends something died in her car... definitely an animal.

Did we ever find out when the chloroform computer search was? Could she have searched after the fact, to find out if it's useful as a cleaning agent?

I like this idea, it will be interesting to see when the chloroform search was but don't know if we will have access to the info for awhile. Would a dead body smell up the car that much in the first few days? Anybody?

natsound
09-26-2008, 09:39 AM
Because the odor which originated in the trunk had saturated the entire car, to the point where it was bowling people over by the time it was discovered nearly 3 weeks later. My hunch is the body most likely would have to be present for more than 24 hours...a couple of days at least, for the gases to penetrate that deeply. Just my non-expert opinion. :) It would be great to hear an FP's take on this.

I do agree with you that Casey feels confident the body will never be found. :mad:

My hunch is that it would take less than 24 hours for the smell to become overwhelming, in the Florida heat and in an even hotter trunk. I think perhaps Casey tried for a few days to scrub the smell out. She might have even gotten rid of it for a few hours, then it came back, hence backing into the driveway 3x that week. Finally, she gave up.

CarrieBean
09-26-2008, 10:40 AM
I think there have been numerous cases of people living in a neighboring apartment reporting an odor and police discovering a dead body next door.

Not blocks, though.

This happened at our building about 10 years ago. The man lived in an apartment right in the middle of the building, across from the elevator. Nobody had heard from him in 3 days, so they figured he had been dead for that long. You could smell it throughout the hall on that floor (not sure of the distance, but I believe there are 12 apartments on each floor) and it lingered in the elevator.

The second time I smelled decomp was 7 years ago, during an autopsy (in a pretty small room)that our biology teacher had set up for us. The young man had been dead for 4 days. Even after showering multiple times, I couldn't get rid of the smell. I threw out the clothes I wore that day. It's not a smell you would ever forget. I could smell it for days after, but I think it was all in my mind because nobody else around me could smell it.

I would imagine that even if a small amount of body fluid leaked out, it would be near impossible to get rid of the smell out of the trunk...especially being closed up in a small space, in the heat.

kiki the parrot
09-26-2008, 12:50 PM
Re the length of time Caylee's little body would need to have been in trunk to cause such an overwhelming smell--seems it would depend as much on what condition her body was in, ie the state of decomp, as much as the duration she was inside. So if Caylee were considerably (wince) decomposed, she may have been placed in trunk briefly (as little as an hour or two, eg) yet more likely to (cringe) leak fluid. And just for my own clarification we DO know don't we that GA was not alone when car was initially retrieved and trunk opened at wrecker yard-when wrecker guy tosses white bag later recovered by LE-but has eliminated any possibility Caylee could have actually been in trunk that day... right? Sorry it's hard to keep all the stories straight...

kiki the parrot
09-26-2008, 01:09 PM
In other words, if she wasn't successful in retrieving her daughter's body as early as 6/18 (when neighbor reports shovel/backing in) and some time passed, Caylee's state of decomp could've deteriorated to extent that even a brief transferance may have been extremely cumbersome or difficult without leaving traces which became intolerable and grew overpowering w time inside hot trunk. ALSO FYI George reports the cans (taken between 6/22 and 6/23-and reported stolen on 6/24) were recovered later that same day-6/24. BTW Hearing now that contrary to his statements GA may actually have not retrieved cans himself ie was never allowed close enough by Casey and NEVER SAW INSIDE TRUNK, I have a sinking suspicion this is EXACTLY why Casey acts the way she does because he comes harrowingly close to discovering his granddaughter's body.

impatientredhead
09-26-2008, 04:04 PM
The tow truck driver says that the car they had on the lot that had held a suicide victim for five days was way more intense in smell than Casey's. I think Caylee was in the trunk for about two days. According to the body farm degree day formula the heat in the trunk in Florida would create more than enough decomp for the odor being described. The new ex-boyfriends statement (Chris?) says that she showed up at his house on the 17th, 18th or 19th in Tony's jeep so she was already not driving the Sunbird around at this point.

Tracy1
09-26-2008, 04:53 PM
I read on a site about Cleaners who clean up death scenes that depending on how hot it was and how long a body was left in a house or apartment, many times they have to take the wallboard down to the studs. They can't get the smell out no matter what.

It also said that the smell of a decomposing body gets in everything....peoples hair, their clothes, everything. that is one reason why they totally cover themselves in protective gear when cleaning up a death scene. And this is not only a violent death scene. Just if someone had died and wasn't found for a day or so.

Basically, it is impossible to get the smell out of carpet etc. Impossible.

Marple
09-26-2008, 05:47 PM
I always wondered about this too and I have found it odd. Did George go to work? A very strange time to go to work after finding the car and the condition it was in. Exactly where was he during these hours. Not only doesn't he answer CA's calls, but LA had to go over to the house because CA was so upset. If he was at work, strange, but that would explain it. If not, very very suspicious. I'm beginning to wonder if the body was still in the trunk and he disposed of it at that time.

IIRC, GA started a new job on that day and was at work.

kiki the parrot
09-26-2008, 06:03 PM
Yes I read too there were a couple days Tony said he did let Casey drive his jeep just while he was out of town... we know she also drove Amy's for a week during her vacation but I believe she was still driving Pontiac periodically until the point at which she abandoned on 6/27. And THAT is why I personally believe she had Caylee inside the trunk for an extended period of time: as I believe it was when another place for Caylee's body was found that she could safely abandon the vehicle. Otherwise she would risk the body being found. *I know that sounds horrid that someone kept driving around with a body in an advanced state of decomp, but we're talking about borderline personality-disorder-at-best, immature mother who if she UNintentionally caused death of her child may feasibly have had major denial or trouble parting with Caylee's remains but was eventually forced to due to gas and/or smell and fear of exposure this caused. That's my current working theory anyway re timing of ditching car right after disposing of Caylee which leaves a window of up to a WEEK or TEN DAYS that Caylee may have been concealed in the trunk. Btw after reading interview w tow manager there was no way Caylee could have been in there. And if it didn't smell as bad to him as the suicide car that's also likely because a) it was a 40 pound toddler vs much larger adult and b) could have been gunshot wound which would've probably accelerated decomp process plus c) it was in car interior vs trunk. Just some random thoughts I've had...(

kiki the parrot
09-26-2008, 06:45 PM
BTW Anybody notice how NOBODY reports smelling ANY THING RESEMBLING CHLOROFORM at tow yard or prior... which only supports my hunch that it was used later (after recovering vehicle, but before it was picked up by crime lab). To my disappointment there was nothing within the computer forensic report released today re chloroform. Notably there IS an internet search from as late as 7/16 (re search for name ZF-G). So... since it was reported that chloroform searches were done on Casey's laptop; and we know chloroform would've definitely been needed and USED by this point and since there was such a toxic saturation of chloroform even when gases were sampled this all leads me to think a) searches were likely for USE (and not purchase) of chloroform; b) this likely was used while Casey was behind bars (right?); and c) this specific search info being withheld by LE... or any other ideas?

txanmom
09-29-2008, 07:59 PM
be gentle dear posters as this is my first thread to start. I hope this is not a repeat i have tried to read up as much as possible although i missed 8 days as i had no power in the wake of Hurricane Ike.


Anyway, that smell just has me going crazy. I can see this anti-social, party girl mama deleting/killing (either accidentally or intentionally) Caylee because of the "mistake" of her, because of her "unfit mother" status with CA, and because of the ultimate revenge against her mother (ie; taking that which was most important and beloved of CA). Here is what i don't get, KC dissasociate all you want but everyone who came near that car was absolutely appalled by the smell.

When i was a girl we lived in a remote area and people would constantly dump their unwanted pets on our road. As a result I have smelled animal death on a few occassions here is what I know. We could drive by in a locked car with windows down and would begin to smell it several yards before and after we came upon the worst of the smell. I am sure they were dumped far from the road we were travelling.

SO, how in the h*ll was she able to drive around with that smell. I mean come on no matter what mindset she had how, how, how did it make everyone else so disgusted but she just drove around easy-peasy with that horrible nauseating smell all the while knowing she created the smell.

Also, slightly ot - what in her mind made her think she could originally bury her in the yard of her parents!!:eek:I mean didn't it occurr to her that they might want to dig up their yard just for yardwork, etc. Also, the smell would have eminated even from a burial hole, right?

this is all so sickening, i don't even know who to vent to, so i guess i am doing it here.

SleuthinCa
09-29-2008, 08:01 PM
Sociopaths can easily disassociate from things, I doubt the smell bothered her at all.

Sammi99
09-29-2008, 10:02 PM
be gentle dear posters as this is my first thread to start. I hope this is not a repeat i have tried to read up as much as possible although i missed 8 days as i had no power in the wake of Hurricane Ike. Oh my, you are are definitely behind on this case if you missed 8 days and I hope all is well for you, your family and community.


Anyway, that smell just has me going crazy. I can see this anti-social, party girl mama deleting/killing (either accidentally or intentionally) Caylee because of the "mistake" of her, because of her "unfit mother" status with CA, and because of the ultimate revenge against her mother (ie; taking that which was most important and beloved of CA). Here is what i don't get, KC dissasociate all you want but everyone who came near that car was absolutely appalled by the smell. I don't think princess KC was enjoying the awful smell but she must not have had any alternatives while she was forced to drive the Sunfire.

When i was a girl we lived in a remote area and people would constantly dump their unwanted pets on our road. As a result I have smelled animal death on a few occassions here is what I know. We could drive by in a locked car with windows down and would begin to smell it several yards before and after we came upon the worst of the smell. I am sure they were dumped far from the road we were travelling.

SO, how in the h*ll was she able to drive around with that smell. I mean come on no matter what mindset she had how, how, how did it make everyone else so disgusted but she just drove around easy-peasy with that horrible nauseating smell all the while knowing she created the smell.I'm sure she was miserable driving a car with a smell of decomposition but again she was out of options at that point. Later she was able to borrow TnE Lz 's car but it wasn't until after she abandoned hers and he went to New York. Then she was only able to borrow Amy's while she was on vacation to Peurto Rico after TnE Lz came back from NY. So it wasn't a matter of dealing with the situation well, she really had a situation she had to deal with and no other options at the moment. Also she might have been under the influence of lots of stress hormones like adrenaline at that precarious time (fear of being found out) which might have helped her ignore the odor.:eek:

Also, slightly ot - what in her mind made her think she could originally bury her in the yard of her parents!!:eek:I mean didn't it occurr to her that they might want to dig up their yard just for yardwork, etc. Also, the smell would have eminated even from a burial hole, right?

this is all so sickening, i don't even know who to vent to, so i guess i am doing it here.

:eek:

magic-cat
10-15-2008, 10:43 PM
Not trying to be disgusting or outlandish, but I discovered something last week that I could not believe I did not know. My own daughter had gone on a school trip in one of her AP classes to Virginia Tech and they went to some sort of scientific research facility that HAD cadavers. I was discussing this case with her and I said in an offhand way that I had never SMELLED a dead body, so I could not make an absolute statement that a dead human body does not smell like, say, a squirrel for instance. This is when I discovered the information that I had been unaware of. She said, "I have smelled dead bodies mommy, when we went to Virginia Tech." I asked if they were not preserved chemically and she said of course they were, but you could STILL smell the cadaver smell CLEARLY. I asked her if she could describe it, and she said that it was a smell she could and would never forget. I asked her if she smelled it again, would she recognize it and she was 100% positive that she would. I then asked her if she thought it could be mistaken for something else, and she said that once you have smelled THAT smell one time, there is no way to confuse it with ANYTHING else-it was very distinctive.

So I wondered if we have any other sleuths who might have had the opportunity or the misfortune to smell the scent of a deceased human, and if they could share with those of us who have not their thoughts on "confusing" this smell with something else. I also wondered if anyone knows of anything else that could immitate THAT smell???

I guess it is just a time of HORRIBLE threads...Sorry.:blowkiss:

butwhatif?
10-15-2008, 10:46 PM
Thankfully no.:puke:

magic-cat
10-15-2008, 10:51 PM
Thankfully no.:puke:


Me too!:clap:

Paladine
10-15-2008, 10:56 PM
(snipped for brevity....)

So I wondered if we have any other sleuths who might have had the opportunity or the misfortune to smell the scent of a deceased human, and if they could share with those of us who have not their thoughts on "confusing" this smell with something else. I also wondered if anyone knows of anything else that could immitate THAT smell???

I guess it is just a time of HORRIBLE threads...Sorry.:blowkiss:

My Father-in-law was found 2 days after death in his room, he lived alone...I was in the room after the funeral, so, at least 4 days after his body was removed. The smell made me nauseated , I had to leave or I would have vomited.

My Husband was found by me, about 2 hours after his death...no smell, but some bluish pooling of blood was seen, his lips were blue...but when my Son, 18, gave him CPR, not realizing he was deceased for so long, he said he couldn't get the "TASTE" out of his mouth for months...I now suspect it was the taste of decomp.

It's pretty potent stuff...

Sunshinegirl
10-15-2008, 10:56 PM
So I wondered if we have any other sleuths who might have had the opportunity or the misfortune to smell the scent of a deceased human, and if they could share with those of us who have not their thoughts on "confusing" this smell with something else. I also wondered if anyone knows of anything else that could immitate THAT smell???

snipped...

I found this on another site... I guess this description gives you an idea of the smell of a decomposing body (which I highly doubt could ever be mistaken with PIZZA)

if the homicide investigator smelled "decomposition", there was a dead body somewhere around the vicinity. I hate to be so graphic but, until you smell a cadaver, you haven't smelled anything bad. Imagine the smell of a hot tar pot, combined with the smell of a 5 gallon bucket full of rotten eggs, combined with a weeks worth of poopie diapers, combined with about 100 pounds of rotten fish, combined with the smell of a dead cow. Once you smell that smell, you never forget it and you will recognize it no matter where or when you smell it next. It's a very unique - and very bad -odor.

sassy_texasbelle2
10-15-2008, 11:00 PM
I had a small freezer about the size of a dorm frig. The power went out and it was full of meat. The smell OMG the smell was the most horrible thing I have ever smelled. It was only about 24 hours and maggots were starting to show up. I have never been so sick in my life from a smell. We could not get it to the trash fast enough. I cannot imagine how she could have driven around with a dead body for days. She must have done it just putting it out of her mind like she did killing Caylee. She has some kind of mind control that is for sure.

magic-cat
10-15-2008, 11:02 PM
Oh my. I am so sorry that anyone has had to smell this and I do so much appreciate the honest answers and comments. This has got to be a difficult subject because if you have smelled it then it was likely someone that you loved and I am so sorry that any of you had to endure that. Hugs to each and every one of you who has been affected by this...and thanks again-so sorry for the morbidity, but you know, ask the tough questions, get the straight answers, solve the puzzle...so deepest gratitude to all who have had this misfortune or must endure it in the course of your careers...:blowkiss:

magic-cat
10-15-2008, 11:03 PM
I had a small freezer about the size of a dorm frig. The power went out and it was full of meat. The smell OMG the smell was the most horrible thing I have ever smelled. It was only about 24 hours and maggots were starting to show up. I have never been so sick in my life from a smell. We could not get it to the trash fast enough. I cannot imagine how she could have driven around with a dead body for days. She must have done it just putting it out of her mind like she did killing Caylee. She has some kind of mind control that is for sure.

She probably just breathed through her mouth or worse nose plugs or a scarf over her face...who knows with Casey's Carnival of Horrors....:eek: (sorry for the loss of meat-that must have HURT!)

TURBOTHINK
10-15-2008, 11:13 PM
I always wondered about this too and I have found it odd. Did George go to work? A very strange time to go to work after finding the car and the condition it was in. Exactly where was he during these hours. Not only doesn't he answer CA's calls, but LA had to go over to the house because CA was so upset. If he was at work, strange, but that would explain it. If not, very very suspicious. I'm beginning to wonder if the body was still in the trunk and he disposed of it at that time.

I have always believed that.

magiemay
10-15-2008, 11:17 PM
I always wondered about this too and I have found it odd. Did George go to work? A very strange time to go to work after finding the car and the condition it was in. Exactly where was he during these hours. Not only doesn't he answer CA's calls, but LA had to go over to the house because CA was so upset. If he was at work, strange, but that would explain it. If not, very very suspicious. I'm beginning to wonder if the body was still in the trunk and he disposed of it at that time.
Ok if you go back and listen to the taped interview of Ga he tells the investigator that CA sent him back to work as soon as the car was brought home goes on to talk about he is married to a controlling woman anywho this tells us where GA was the time in question.

spiritao36401
10-15-2008, 11:17 PM
But I mean after after the body is removed from any location, how long would the smell stay?

My dad past away in the middle of September last year in his apartment. He was supposed to have a caregiver taking care of him, well guess not. I found him two days after his birthday last year on the 19th. of October. The smell was awful, and my hubby being a retired Marine Corp. Vet, could not handle to be around that apartment. Needless to say, we live in Montana and it gets cold here in October so the heat had been on in the apartment since September, and that did not help any at all. I cleaned his apartment out after the funeral, and had to put dryer sheets in sealed bags and boxes as the smell on everything in the apartment smelled awful, and the drive home with his stuff was not going to be great. All his furniture had to be tossed as well. It took us two weeks to clean the apartment including the walls to try to get the smell out. Needless to say, it did not work, it has been a year since his death and the apartment is still not able to be rented. And all the stuff I brought back, it still smells, I have left everything out this summer to vent, but it is still there the same as when I picked the stuff up.

TURBOTHINK
10-15-2008, 11:19 PM
BTW Anybody notice how NOBODY reports smelling ANY THING RESEMBLING CHLOROFORM at tow yard or prior... which only supports my hunch that it was used later (after recovering vehicle, but before it was picked up by crime lab). To my disappointment there was nothing within the computer forensic report released today re chloroform. Notably there IS an internet search from as late as 7/16 (re search for name ZF-G). So... since it was reported that chloroform searches were done on Casey's laptop; and we know chloroform would've definitely been needed and USED by this point and since there was such a toxic saturation of chloroform even when gases were sampled this all leads me to think a) searches were likely for USE (and not purchase) of chloroform; b) this likely was used while Casey was behind bars (right?); and c) this specific search info being withheld by LE... or any other ideas?

The machines they use to determine decomp and/or other chemicals is so sensitive you would not have to smell it for the machine to pick it up.

You would smell decomp, no matter what they did. That smell premiates everything except metal. There is no mistaking that smell for ANYTHING else.

TURBOTHINK
10-15-2008, 11:21 PM
IIRC, GA started a new job on that day and was at work.

I would be curious what time he arrived.

Sammi99
10-15-2008, 11:22 PM
Ok if you go back and listen to the taped interview of Ga he tells the investigator that CA sent him back to work as soon as the car was brought home goes on to talk about he is married to a controlling woman anywho this tells us where GA was the time in question.

I'm sure LE investigated whether he was at work like he said he was. So they already know if he was truthful or not. I think he probably did go to work like he said he did. If he was not credible LE would not have him testify before the GJ.

Sammiejam
10-15-2008, 11:27 PM
Not trying to be disgusting or outlandish, but I discovered something last week that I could not believe I did not know. My own daughter had gone on a school trip in one of her AP classes to Virginia Tech and they went to some sort of scientific research facility that HAD cadavers. I was discussing this case with her and I said in an offhand way that I had never SMELLED a dead body, so I could not make an absolute statement that a dead human body does not smell like, say, a squirrel for instance. This is when I discovered the information that I had been unaware of. She said, "I have smelled dead bodies mommy, when we went to Virginia Tech." I asked if they were not preserved chemically and she said of course they were, but you could STILL smell the cadaver smell CLEARLY. I asked her if she could describe it, and she said that it was a smell she could and would never forget. I asked her if she smelled it again, would she recognize it and she was 100% positive that she would. I then asked her if she thought it could be mistaken for something else, and she said that once you have smelled THAT smell one time, there is no way to confuse it with ANYTHING else-it was very distinctive.

So I wondered if we have any other sleuths who might have had the opportunity or the misfortune to smell the scent of a deceased human, and if they could share with those of us who have not their thoughts on "confusing" this smell with something else. I also wondered if anyone knows of anything else that could immitate THAT smell???

I guess it is just a time of HORRIBLE threads...Sorry.:blowkiss:


Yes I have smelt it. My dad is a fireman. One time a car was found that had run off the road and into a tree. It was obscured by bushes and other trees and no-one found the car for about a week. (Sadly, a member of the woman's family was driving along her route from work and saw the tire tracks) Anyway, the Jaws of Life were needed to her out. My father arrived and had full protective clothing and a mask. He could smell her from the road. They chopped the car up and carefully tried to remove her. As she was coming out of the car something popped and gas was released. My dad had taken off PART of his head gear for some reason and his hair and lower face was exposed. Well, that night when he got home I went to give him a hug and GAGGED. The reek coming off his person was ABSOLUTELY AND INDISCRIBALY HORRIFIC. He had vicks vapour rub up his nose and still he was having a hard time breathing because of the smell. He actually became ill from the fumes, it was like a chemical spill.

He had to shave his head and his mastache as the smell had permiated the hair and he was giving of stench waves like you see on cartoons. I was convinced I could smell it for weeks after. And it was secondhand!!!!

It smells like nothing else on this earth. Its almost sweet, but not really... its like... i cant even think of words that adequitely describe it.

Oh, another time, my dad was called out to a house where a man had died in his hot-tub. It was till going 4 days later and the guy was almost liquified. Dad could smell it through his gasmask and it made his eyes water and all the guys were throwig up involuntarily. The house ended up having to be pulled down because the smell was so horrific. He was found because his neighbours 3 KILOMETERS AWAY (he lived in a rural area) could smell something when the wind blew and they knew it decomp but was a bit different to the smell of dead sheep or cow which was not uncommon out there.

So yeah, there is no mistaking it and there is nothing else like it. I actually gagged while writing this and thinkng of my Pops walking through the door that day. The smell is burnt into my orfactory memory.

I pray none of you ever have to experience that smell... :eek:

Pondering Mind
10-15-2008, 11:28 PM
My Father-in-law was found 2 days after death in his room, he lived alone...I was in the room after the funeral, so, at least 4 days after his body was removed. The smell made me nauseated , I had to leave or I would have vomited.

My Husband was found by me, about 2 hours after his death...no smell, but some bluish pooling of blood was seen, his lips were blue...but when my Son, 18, gave him CPR, not realizing he was deceased for so long, he said he couldn't get the "TASTE" out of his mouth for months...I now suspect it was the taste of decomp.

It's pretty potent stuff...

OK, I have posted part of this before (I thought it was on this thread, but can't find it now) Don't know how much this will help, but here goes...My first son died of SIDS when he was almost 11 months old in 1974. I went into his room early that morning and knew immediatly something was wrong for 2 reasons, the first being his little head would always pop up when he heard me coming and a slight but noticeable distinct scent. Not "bad", but unlike I had ever smelled before or since, but will NEVER forget. I had checked on him in the middle of the night, so it could not have been more than 3-4 hours and maybe not that, I had no way of knowing. (which was one of the hardest things because then you begin the what ifs) I can't describe it because there is nothing to compare it to, but there has been times over the years when I have caught a waft of something similar and it would stop me in my tracks. (but never knew where it came from) From my experience, even though it was a short length of time it would definitely be unmistakable.

SleuthyGal
10-15-2008, 11:40 PM
I have never smelled human decomp and surely hope I never do. What's interesting is that my brother died in his bed in an apt. building in December (5 years ago) and was found after 2 days. When my mother went to clean out the apt after his funeral a few days later she said she did not detect any odor. Isn't that strange?

icherish
10-15-2008, 11:51 PM
I have never smelled a badly decomposed body, no.

But, I have been inside of a morgue (worked in a hospital years ago) and there was a slight, but destinctive odor of decay clinging to the place.
I would best describe it as a slightly fecal smell with a sweetish-musty hint to it. (sorry, I know that's gross)

I've also noticed that odor while viewing a deceased relative at a funeral home. Faint, but definitely destinctive- it sort of wafted past my nose for a moment and I immediately recognized it as the same odor from the morgue. I sure wasn't expecting it because the body was obviously embalmed and looked well-preserved. I guess even the strongest chemicals can't cover it up completely once the process of decomp is under way.

Pondering Mind
10-15-2008, 11:51 PM
I have never smelled human decomp and surely hope I never do. What's interesting is that my brother died in his bed in an apt. building in December (5 years ago) and was found after 2 days. When my mother went to clean out the apt after his funeral a few days later she said she did not detect any odor. Isn't that strange?

It is strange, was there heat on in the apartment if you know and don't mind me asking? I don't know if what I smelled was "decomp" or "death" and to be honest don't know what the difference really is. Is it length of time? My son passed away in September of 1974 and it was still warm weather here in the South.

SleuthyGal
10-15-2008, 11:57 PM
It is strange, was there heat on in the apartment if you know and don't mind me asking? I don't know if what I smelled was "decomp" or "death" and to be honest don't know what the difference really is. Is it length of time? My son passed away in September of 1974 and it was still warm weather here in the South.

We (the family) weren't there when he was found, and the police had to break in to his apt. But yes the heat would have been on and it likely would have been around 70 - 72 degrees inside at the end of December in PA. I have no other information although my mother did instruct the funeral home to NOT put his real casket in the room for the ceremony but to have it already in the hearse and instead use an empty casket since the funeral home was unable to embalm him due to the condition of his arteries and were only able to do a 'topical' application. She was worried there might be a smell during the service and she didn't want to take any chances.

TURBOTHINK
10-15-2008, 11:58 PM
I have never smelled human decomp and surely hope I never do. What's interesting is that my brother died in his bed in an apt. building in December (5 years ago) and was found after 2 days. When my mother went to clean out the apt after his funeral a few days later she said she did not detect any odor. Isn't that strange?

Maybe she had a bad sinus infection. Who knows? I know we used Vick's Vapor Rub in college to keep the smell out of our noses even when the bodies had been refrigerated if we were going to work on them because in a very short time the smell is there.

glezell
10-15-2008, 11:59 PM
I am sorry I haven't read through the whole thread to see if this was discussed....

But, if they found maggots, could they not test those maggots to see what they had been feeding on (ie dna??)

I seem to remember that entomologists have studied soil sample where a body has been found and they could examine the insects and such in that area and some are that are known to feed on human remains can be tested and they can determine how long the remains had been there and such. (maybe I have read too many crime novels.

So is it possible they were able to do some test on the maggots found and possibly this is the "cutting edge" test they were talking about on NG???

Paladine
10-16-2008, 12:15 AM
I am sorry I haven't read through the whole thread to see if this was discussed....

But, if they found maggots, could they not test those maggots to see what they had been feeding on (ie dna??)

I seem to remember that entomologists have studied soil sample where a body has been found and they could examine the insects and such in that area and some are that are known to feed on human remains can be tested and they can determine how long the remains had been there and such. (maybe I have read too many crime novels.

So is it possible they were able to do some test on the maggots found and possibly this is the "cutting edge" test they were talking about on NG???

Maggots are a wealth of information...this site is a University forensics site...



Flies might also answer an embarrassing question after you are gone: What drugs were ya taking? You might hope to take evidence of your personal failings to the grave, but what if it could implicate the bad guy? Help is on the way from Virginia Commonwealth University, where scientists are working on, what else, the "maggot milkshake."

The principle is simple, VCU toxicology graduate student Michelle Peace wrote in 2002. "You are what you eat. So if the body had taken any type of drugs prior to death, and the maggots are eating on that body, then the drugs are going to wind up in the maggots."

Flavorful.

Here's the scoop. In a hot, humid climate, a writhing mess of maggots can quickly reduce you to a heap of bones. But if you could find a way to analyze toxins from the maggots, you would produce a voice from beyond the grave. To make a maggot milkshake, you cram maggots direct from the corpse in the ol' Waring blender, and off you go. If the victim had taken drugs -- or perhaps been poisoned -- you might develop leads for a murder investigation.

http://whyfiles.org/014forensic/index.php?g=2.txt

Priester
10-16-2008, 12:21 AM
I can remember it clearly even 14 years later.

Two children, who had been submerged underwater for 9 days.

:puke:

Pondering Mind
10-16-2008, 12:30 AM
Maggots are a wealth of information...this site is a University forensics site...




http://whyfiles.org/014forensic/index.php?g=2.txt

WoW...Thank You Paladine, Very Interesting ... makes perfect sense. Puts my mind at ease as far as what evidence the Body Farm has been able to uncover. :eek:

McDonough
10-16-2008, 12:56 AM
I have never smelled human decomp and surely hope I never do. What's interesting is that my brother died in his bed in an apt. building in December (5 years ago) and was found after 2 days. When my mother went to clean out the apt after his funeral a few days later she said she did not detect any odor. Isn't that strange?


My hubby is a funeral director so I asked him about your experience. He said that if you live in an area of the country that has a cold winter and the heat in your brother's apartment was not on very warm it is possible that the cold weather kept his body from decomposing at the normal rate.

Unfortunately because of his job hubby has also had quite a few experiences with badly decomposed bodies and he has said that without a doubt that human decomposition is the worst smell he has ever encountered and it is one that a person could never forget. Also, if a badly decomposed body is in an enclosed area for any period of time that the smell is practically impossible to remove from any porous surfaces in the room.

If anyone has any specific questions I would be happy to ask him if he had any insight!

Jennerbear
10-16-2008, 01:36 AM
Asked my hubby about this - I know he and another boy discovered a dead body when he was younger in a car alongside the road. Also, he lived on a farm and was used to dead animals around. He said that there is NO smell like it... no animal smells like it... no garbage smells like it... nothing. It is a smell all it's own. My BROTHER works for the electric company and went to a ladies house who was complaining about a power problem. Well, he had been a volunteer officer for a while and had come across some NASTY things. He said that when he checked this woman's power - she had a forgotten bag of decomposing lamg shanks that had been sitting there for a week or so. He said that of all the dead smells he has smelled - THAT is the closest to human decomp - but still isn't the same.

On Mythbusters, they took the "myth" that if a body is left in a car you will never be able to sell the car. Well, they had a corvette and took a pig in it (which if you watch CSI they use all the time for human comparison experiments). They left the pig in for a month (??) and then stripped it clean and had a crime scene cleanup guy advise them. They could NOT get that smell out. They did sell the car eventually but everyone that came to see it was sicking out big time.

My dad was an EMT for years and I'm going to ask him about it. We don't talk very much so this email about dead body smell might seem a little odd out of the blue lol.

TURBOTHINK
10-16-2008, 01:47 AM
Maggot milkshake
Beyond the all-important "date-of-death" question, forensic entomologists may also reveal where a suspect has traveled -- if insect larvae appear on muddy boots or vehicles.

Oval eggs rest in brown, stringy messCollect 'em all! Maggots can help date a corpse.
Photo: Dept. of Agriculture of Western Australia

Flies might also answer an embarrassing question after you are gone: What drugs were ya taking? You might hope to take evidence of your personal failings to the grave, but what if it could implicate the bad guy? Help is on the way from Virginia Commonwealth University, where scientists are working on, what else, the "maggot milkshake."

The principle is simple, VCU toxicology graduate student Michelle Peace wrote in 2002. "You are what you eat. So if the body had taken any type of drugs prior to death, and the maggots are eating on that body, then the drugs are going to wind up in the maggots."

shoelace
10-16-2008, 05:14 AM
unfortunately, i am a bit of an expert on the smell of decomposing humans. i don't even know how many times i have smelled them, but i do know this... once you've smelled a decomposing body, you know forever what it's like.

i'm a paramedic in san francisco and have to pronounce death somewhat often. no matter what the scene is, no matter how obvious the death, police cannot pronounce someone dead... i have to.

so here's the deal... this smell is nothing like rotting meat that you might have in a car. there's no pizza in the world that can mimic this smell... in fact, this scent is so unique that i can easily recall, as i'm typing, just what it's like. weirdly enough, it's a little sweet. it's also a bit rancid. it's appalling until you get used to it. it varies in strength secondary to time and temperature.

what makes that point so pithy is that ga was once a homicide investigator. when he smelled his trunk, i can tell you that he knew 100% that this was the scent of a decomposing body. i can tell you with absolute certainty that if i was near that trunk, i would know if it came from a person or not. 100%.

most unfortunate indeed. this is why ga is the most tortured person dealing with this right now. because he knows she was in there.

EtherealGirl
10-16-2008, 05:37 AM
I had a small freezer about the size of a dorm frig. The power went out and it was full of meat. The smell OMG the smell was the most horrible thing I have ever smelled. It was only about 24 hours and maggots were starting to show up. I have never been so sick in my life from a smell. We could not get it to the trash fast enough. I cannot imagine how she could have driven around with a dead body for days. She must have done it just putting it out of her mind like she did killing Caylee. She has some kind of mind control that is for sure.

A decomposing body smells even worse, and it is almost impossible to get the smell out of anything it touches. It lingers on your clothes and about the only thing that can filter that smell is Vicks Vapor Rub and you know how strong that stuff smells and it doesn't even combat it completely. The smell eventually penetrates the Vicks.

I can't understand how she could stand it either, especially knowing who it was, and how she got there.

God bless Caylee. I hope she did not suffer (much). I have a friend that worked the Susan Smith case and was there when they pulled the car from the lake. Everyone knows, I am sure, that the little boys were holding hands, because it was on the news.

My friend said he believes that in a situation like that..God sends Angels to surround the child and just take it away. That really is a lovely thought, but I have seen too much to believe that is true.

Pink Panther
10-16-2008, 05:42 AM
Maggot milkshake
Beyond the all-important "date-of-death" question, forensic entomologists may also reveal where a suspect has traveled -- if insect larvae appear on muddy boots or vehicles.

Oval eggs rest in brown, stringy messCollect 'em all! Maggots can help date a corpse.
Photo: Dept. of Agriculture of Western Australia

Flies might also answer an embarrassing question after you are gone: What drugs were ya taking? You might hope to take evidence of your personal failings to the grave, but what if it could implicate the bad guy? Help is on the way from Virginia Commonwealth University, where scientists are working on, what else, the "maggot milkshake."

The principle is simple, VCU toxicology graduate student Michelle Peace wrote in 2002. "You are what you eat. So if the body had taken any type of drugs prior to death, and the maggots are eating on that body, then the drugs are going to wind up in the maggots."
She left her boots in the trunk as well. We haven't heard anything about them yet either. Also - I read somewhere that sometimes it is possible to retrieve DNA and other info from items that have been washed. If LE did manage to retrieve the correct pair of grey slacks - they might have also been able to glean something from them...

Unfortunately, I am convinced that those grey pants (and the white shirt) she wore the day she was indicted are the very same ones that she wore the day she left the house with Caylee. KC seems to get a kick out of this kind of thing - like wearing the stolen white rimmed glasses...etc...

MOO

Jennerbear
10-16-2008, 06:37 AM
My friend said he believes that in a situation like that..God sends Angels to surround the child and just take it away. That really is a lovely thought, but I have seen too much to believe that is true.

Well in the Bible God took Stephen to heaven before he died. We never know.

magic-cat
10-16-2008, 10:59 AM
Well in the Bible God took Stephen to heaven before he died. We never know.

Stephen was the exception and not the rule...I HOPE that Caylee was one of God's exceptions, and that she WAS swept up into the wings of angels and never had to suffer...

magic-cat
10-16-2008, 11:05 AM
OK, I have posted part of this before (I thought it was on this thread, but can't find it now) Don't know how much this will help, but here goes...My first son died of SIDS when he was almost 11 months old in 1974. I went into his room early that morning and knew immediatly something was wrong for 2 reasons, the first being his little head would always pop up when he heard me coming and a slight but noticeable distinct scent. Not "bad", but unlike I had ever smelled before or since, but will NEVER forget. I had checked on him in the middle of the night, so it could not have been more than 3-4 hours and maybe not that, I had no way of knowing. (which was one of the hardest things because then you begin the what ifs) I can't describe it because there is nothing to compare it to, but there has been times over the years when I have caught a waft of something similar and it would stop me in my tracks. (but never knew where it came from) From my experience, even though it was a short length of time it would definitely be unmistakable.

(((HUGS TO YOU)))...
I am so sorry for your loss. An 11 month old child lost to SIDS must have been a complete nightmare for you and I am so sorry that you had to go through that. My sister lost a baby to SIDS when she was only 5 weeks old and it completely destroyed her, so I cannot even imagine the pain that you must have siuffered and likely still do. I sincerely thank you for sharing that with us, and my heartfelt prayers of comfort and peace are yours. (((HUGS AGAIN)))...

magic-cat
10-16-2008, 11:12 AM
My hubby is a funeral director so I asked him about your experience. He said that if you live in an area of the country that has a cold winter and the heat in your brother's apartment was not on very warm it is possible that the cold weather kept his body from decomposing at the normal rate.

Unfortunately because of his job hubby has also had quite a few experiences with badly decomposed bodies and he has said that without a doubt that human decomposition is the worst smell he has ever encountered and it is one that a person could never forget. Also, if a badly decomposed body is in an enclosed area for any period of time that the smell is practically impossible to remove from any porous surfaces in the room.

If anyone has any specific questions I would be happy to ask him if he had any insight!

Ask him if the smell would have "clung" to the gas cans that were sealed up in the trunk and if the things that it did permeate would be capable of "tranferring" the smell to another location: ie: gas cans sat in grass in yard after the fact.

DeltaDawn
10-16-2008, 11:15 AM
She left her boots in the trunk as well. We haven't heard anything about them yet either. Also - I read somewhere that sometimes it is possible to retrieve DNA and other info from items that have been washed. If LE did manage to retrieve the correct pair of grey slacks - they might have also been able to glean something from them...

Unfortunately, I am convinced that those grey pants (and the white shirt) she wore the day she was indicted are the very same ones that she wore the day she left the house with Caylee. KC seems to get a kick out of this kind of thing - like wearing the stolen white rimmed glasses...etc...

MOO


Casey's slacks and shoes, and boots were not in the trunk of the car. They were found on the floor in the back seat of the car per the docs filed by LE earlier.

Unsolved
10-17-2008, 01:29 AM
Sorry if the following was posted here previously (before I joined WS). I did a search and didn't see it, so here goes.

In your opinion would the smell still be unbearable on August 4?

Because there was a report on the local news and a small story in the August 6 Orlando Sentinel that really bothered me at the time. It was a story about a terribly foul stench at OIA (Orlando Airport). They suspected that it was dead rodents (this had happened before), and were going to have the cleaning crews out to clean to try and rid the smell.

The portions of the story that bothered me the most were:

ORLANDO--Airport-maintenance crews were called to Orlando International Airport's Airside 1 on Tuesday after U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents complained of a foul odor in the area. Ron Lewis, OIA's director of airport operations, said a team of airport workers checked ceilings, offices and mechanical rooms but were unable to find the source of the smell. Lewis said there could have been any number of possible sources, such as mildew. But the stench also "may have been that of deceased pests," said Zachary Mann, a Customs and Border Protection spokesman.

Since we know Casey HAD been at the airport to pick up Amy, could she have planted something there? Anyone familiar with this part of the airport know if there are there lockers there, etc. where she could have stored a backpack (with something in it), for instance?

Lewis said the airport planned to send crews overnight to check for the source of the odor and scrub the area. Mann said his agency was so pleased with the airport's response that "I don't want to make a stink out of it."

When I saw this I did email the OS writer (Jason Garcia) and also the tip line and voiced my concerns. I asked if they couldn't bring a cadaver dog to the airport scene just to see if there were any hits there. I don't know if a dog would alert to dead rodents, but I really hope someone in LE did check this out.

Of course it probably was some dead rats in traps, and I wish I could just let it go, but it has bothered me ever since.

Laneymae
10-18-2008, 05:58 AM
Sorry if the following was posted here previously (before I joined WS). I did a search and didn't see it, so here goes.

In your opinion would the smell still be unbearable on August 4?

Because there was a report on the local news and a small story in the August 6 Orlando Sentinel that really bothered me at the time. It was a story about a terribly foul stench at OIA (Orlando Airport). They suspected that it was dead rodents (this had happened before), and were going to have the cleaning crews out to clean to try and rid the smell.

The portions of the story that bothered me the most were:

ORLANDO--Airport-maintenance crews were called to Orlando International Airport's Airside 1 on Tuesday after U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents complained of a foul odor in the area. Ron Lewis, OIA's director of airport operations, said a team of airport workers checked ceilings, offices and mechanical rooms but were unable to find the source of the smell. Lewis said there could have been any number of possible sources, such as mildew. But the stench also "may have been that of deceased pests," said Zachary Mann, a Customs and Border Protection spokesman.

Since we know Casey HAD been at the airport to pick up Amy, could she have planted something there? Anyone familiar with this part of the airport know if there are there lockers there, etc. where she could have stored a backpack (with something in it), for instance?

Lewis said the airport planned to send crews overnight to check for the source of the odor and scrub the area. Mann said his agency was so pleased with the airport's response that "I don't want to make a stink out of it."

When I saw this I did email the OS writer (Jason Garcia) and also the tip line and voiced my concerns. I asked if they couldn't bring a cadaver dog to the airport scene just to see if there were any hits there. I don't know if a dog would alert to dead rodents, but I really hope someone in LE did check this out.

Of course it probably was some dead rats in traps, and I wish I could just let it go, but it has bothered me ever since.

My bold ~

Did they bring a cadaver dog to your location?

DotsEyes
10-18-2008, 06:47 AM
According to Amy H., CA and GA smelled the odor at the impound and were terrified that they would open the trunk and find either Caylee or Casey in the trunk.

By the way, I see the defense lining up to challenge the science surrounding the air samples taken from the car and tested by The Body Farm. Let me just say this: we have been testing air samples for decades at the very least and rely on them for the polution reports, the heath conditions of working places etc. Using air "sniffers" is not knew science, but rather perhaps a new application to an established one by using the science to detect decomposition gases rather than pollutants.

I hope they don't make total jackasses of themselves by trying to debuke the science of air sniffers and I sure hope the A's are not putting all their eggs in this basket. They are all in for a rude awakening.

By the way are sub-leases of apartments allowed in Florida? KC seems to think so, at least that is what Juliette was doing with her old digs - per KC.

impatientredhead
10-18-2008, 07:03 AM
According to Amy H., CA and GA smelled the odor at the impound and were terrified that they would open the trunk and find either Caylee or Casey in the trunk.

By the way, I see the defense lining up to challenge the science surrounding the air samples taken from the car and tested by The Body Farm. Let me just say this: we have been testing air samples for decades at the very least and rely on them for the polution reports, the heath conditions of working places etc. Using air "sniffers" is not knew science, but rather perhaps a new application to an established one by using the science to detect decomposition gases rather than pollutants.

I hope they don't make total jackasses of themselves by trying to debuke the science of air sniffers and I sure hope the A's are not putting all their eggs in this basket. They are all in for a rude awakening.

By the way are sub-leases of apartments allowed in Florida? KC seems to think so, at least that is what Juliette was doing with her old digs - per KC.


The defense team's forensic hired gun is on record saying the Body Farm's air test is a solid piece of forensics. That will make it difficult to challenge the technology with a straight face. This was before he was hired by the defense

GRACE: Joining me right now is a highly renowned forensic scientist. Lawrence Kobilinsky joining us out of our New York studios. Dr. Koby, thank you for being with us. Koby, explain to me the artificial nose and how air samples can now be used as evidence. .

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Sure, Nancy. Well, what happens when a body decomposes is that there is metabolism, a breakdown of existing substances -- fat, protein -- and many volatile substances are created. Putrecine (ph), cadaverine, methanol, carbon dioxide hydrogen sulfide, 450 different compounds have been found in a decomposing body. Well, all you need to do is sample the air. We have instrumental analysis, referred to as gas chromatography/mass spectometry (ph), as well as high performance liquid chromatography -- fancy names. But essentially, we can detect all of these components in the gas.

And there are libraries that are digitized in a reference library in the instrument, and these things can be identified. And so this is a reliable way of determining if there is decomposition. Bill Bess (ph) was responsible for creating "the body farm," and crime people, criminalists, go there to study these kinds of things. He`s probably got one of the few labs in the United States that does this kind of work. Normally, it`s done on fish and other decaying substances. The Department of Agriculture is interested in this kind of procedure. But on human decomposition, this is a rare kind of procedure, but it`s a valid one.

kiki the parrot
10-18-2008, 03:20 PM
Quote: Unfortunately, I am convinced that those grey pants (and the white shirt) she wore the day she was indicted are the very same ones that she wore the day she left the house with Caylee. KC seems to get a kick out of this kind of thing - like wearing the stolen white rimmed glasses...etc...

Was wondering the exact same thing, ie could she possibly be flaunting THE grey pinstriped pants... oy...

TexasLil
10-18-2008, 03:27 PM
The defense team's forensic hired gun is on record saying the Body Farm's air test is a solid piece of forensics. That will make it difficult to challenge the technology with a straight face. This was before he was hired by the defense

GRACE: Joining me right now is a highly renowned forensic scientist. Lawrence Kobilinsky joining us out of our New York studios. Dr. Koby, thank you for being with us. Koby, explain to me the artificial nose and how air samples can now be used as evidence. .

LARRY KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Sure, Nancy. Well, what happens when a body decomposes is that there is metabolism, a breakdown of existing substances -- fat, protein -- and many volatile substances are created. Putrecine (ph), cadaverine, methanol, carbon dioxide hydrogen sulfide, 450 different compounds have been found in a decomposing body. Well, all you need to do is sample the air. We have instrumental analysis, referred to as gas chromatography/mass spectometry (ph), as well as high performance liquid chromatography -- fancy names. But essentially, we can detect all of these components in the gas.

And there are libraries that are digitized in a reference library in the instrument, and these things can be identified. And so this is a reliable way of determining if there is decomposition. Bill Bess (ph) was responsible for creating "the body farm," and crime people, criminalists, go there to study these kinds of things. He`s probably got one of the few labs in the United States that does this kind of work. Normally, it`s done on fish and other decaying substances. The Department of Agriculture is interested in this kind of procedure. But on human decomposition, this is a rare kind of procedure, but it`s a valid one.


I believe this will be a powerful piece of evidence for the defense. At first I thought the body farm concept to be repulsive but I'm glad they established this science. Next to DNA this will probably be the strongest argument in the case.

Unsolved
10-18-2008, 04:18 PM
My bold ~

Did they bring a cadaver dog to your location?

I don't know if they ever followed up on this - I never saw any local reports of anyone (either LE or searchers) actually checking the portion of the airport where the foul odor complaint was made. I wish they would have done at least a walkthrough with a cadaver dog, just in case, kwim?

MiraclesHappen
10-18-2008, 05:26 PM
Did Casey cut her hair during the time she is unaccounted for...Does the decomp smell cause someone to do that if they have been exposed to the odor for hours on end?

YellowDog
10-18-2008, 05:57 PM
In the building where I lease my office spaces, we had something die in between the walls or above the ceilings. It was the vilest thing I've ever smelled and my landlord and the exterminator tried everything to get rid of the odor. It lingered for weeks. I even asked my landlord if he thought a burgler could have come in from the roof and died up there in the space above the ceiling. The exterminator finally said he thought it was a dead rat because he saw some signs of rats on the roof. The building is in an industrial area. My question is, would the smell of a dead human body be about the same or even worse? If the answer is worse, I can't even imagine it because this smell was the most horrible thing I've ever smelled. Does anyone know the answer?

treeseeker
10-18-2008, 06:37 PM
My own experience has been in a hospital morgue setting, not with major decomp exposed to the elements. I will say deceased humans have a distinct odor. I speculate that humans have an innate ability to detect it, and since its emotional to see/detect a deceased human, it makes it more powerful - emotion associated with scent.

That said, at first whiff, dead animals smell very similar. MOO

momtective
10-19-2008, 12:29 AM
Excellent article "The Fake smell of death"
http://www.nasw.org/users/JSachs/smellofdeath.rtf.

kgeaux
10-19-2008, 02:57 PM
Excellent article "The Fake smell of death"
http://www.nasw.org/users/JSachs/smellofdeath.rtf.

That was a VERY interesting article! Too funny about the dog that started to alert on plastic ziplock baggies! A wealth of info in that article, thanks for posting it!

momtective
10-19-2008, 04:55 PM
That was a VERY interesting article! Too funny about the dog that started to alert on plastic ziplock baggies! A wealth of info in that article, thanks for posting it!

Bump, bump

Brini
10-19-2008, 05:30 PM
Did Casey cut her hair during the time she is unaccounted for...Does the decomp smell cause someone to do that if they have been exposed to the odor for hours on end?

Good question. Hair absorbs odors easily. But, don't strong odors also wash out easily?

I used to be a dancer in nightclub stage shows. My hair would absorb so much tobacco smoke, that the wash water turned dark. But, it always washed right out.

SleuthyGal
10-19-2008, 06:23 PM
She didn't shave her head though...if the smell permeated her hair to that extent that she couldn't wash the smell out no matter what she did then a haircut would not have gotten it all out since she still had exposed hair that had been there during the time of the car ride/body dump.

Brini
10-19-2008, 06:27 PM
I have wonder this as well... I would think of the tow co owner knew what a dead body smelled like (found in 400 pg docs) then he would have reported that to the police.
I also wonder why (even though he has 10 days to notify) WHY did he not notify Cindy Anthony by lets say the 5th of June.. or by the 10th of June. Why 16 days later was the Anthony's notified that the car was at the tow yard???

I read (can't remember source) that the tow company sent a couple of previous notices. The As said they were not recieved.

Anybody pick up the mail, while GA and CA were out?

Brini
10-19-2008, 06:28 PM
She didn't shave her head though...if the smell permeated her hair to that extent that she couldn't wash the smell out no matter what she did then a haircut would not have gotten it all out since she still had exposed hair that had been there during the time of the car ride/body dump.

Would a dye job erase the smell?

JBean
10-19-2008, 06:31 PM
I read (can't remember source) that the tow company sent a couple of previous notices. The As said they were not recieved.

Anybody pick up the mail, while GA and CA were out?
IIRC, the tow yard sent the letter certified and a signature was required for delivery. The mailperson left a notice for the letter on the front door, because there was no one home. but the Anthony's typically go in through the garage so they missed the notice for a time.
When they finally saw theotice, they had to go pick up the notice at the PO.

Brini
10-19-2008, 08:46 PM
IIRC, the tow yard sent the letter certified and a signature was required for delivery. The mailperson left a notice for the letter on the front door, because there was no one home. but the Anthony's typically go in through the garage so they missed the notice for a time.
When they finally saw theotice, they had to go pick up the notice at the PO.

I see. Thanks! I think you jogged my memory. :)

It'sME
10-19-2008, 08:52 PM
Would a dye job erase the smell?

As a retired hairstylist, yes color, perms etc would erase smells and take away some coatings on the hair.

But....hair will only smell until it is washed, it does not absorb like a sponge would. I have had once a week customers, the little shampoo set ladies and I could tell what they cooked that week for dinner, but after it was shampooed you no longer smelled it.

cacnotcam
10-19-2008, 10:27 PM
As a retired hairstylist, yes color, perms etc would erase smells and take away some coatings on the hair.

But....hair will only smell until it is washed, it does not absorb like a sponge would. I have had once a week customers, the little shampoo set ladies and I could tell what they cooked that week for dinner, but after it was shampooed you no longer smelled it.

:eek: WOW!

magic-cat
10-19-2008, 10:41 PM
She didn't shave her head though...if the smell permeated her hair to that extent that she couldn't wash the smell out no matter what she did then a haircut would not have gotten it all out since she still had exposed hair that had been there during the time of the car ride/body dump.

Are we all forgetting that Casey dearest always tucks her hair inside of a cute little hat, thus providing nearly complete protection for most of her hair. I daresay in THIS case, she may have stuffed it all inside of a hat. I would not be suprised if one of her purchases was not a mask of some kind to cover her face, or at least noseplugs, which she could have picked up very inexpensively...

magic-cat
10-19-2008, 10:44 PM
I read (can't remember source) that the tow company sent a couple of previous notices. The As said they were not recieved.

Anybody pick up the mail, while GA and CA were out?

The car was towed in on day 3 from Amscott-June 30th. The Anthony's HAD received the notice on July 11th-it was put in their front door, which they never use, and they did not find it until the 13th. They could not make it to the PO on the 14th, and did on the 15th and that is when they discovered the car had been towed. The tow yard followed their standard procedure, and there was a holiday-4th of July-which would have been a one day delay on everything...

Unsolved
10-19-2008, 11:04 PM
I always thought it was strange that Casey took a shower at JG's apartment. Maybe due to the smell?

frankieiiiieee
10-19-2008, 11:33 PM
In the building where I lease my office spaces, we had something die in between the walls or above the ceilings. It was the vilest thing I've ever smelled and my landlord and the exterminator tried everything to get rid of the odor. It lingered for weeks. I even asked my landlord if he thought a burgler could have come in from the roof and died up there in the space above the ceiling. The exterminator finally said he thought it was a dead rat because he saw some signs of rats on the roof. The building is in an industrial area. My question is, would the smell of a dead human body be about the same or even worse? If the answer is worse, I can't even imagine it because this smell was the most horrible thing I've ever smelled. Does anyone know the answer?


ugh that reminds me of when I was younger we had a class in a building that was infested with huge scary rats :yuck: so they decided to put some poison up in the walls and kill them....OMG we couldn't even stand to have class in there anymore!!!!!!! The smell never went away and they had to eventually tear down the whole building bc it was considered a health hazard!? wow it was bad and it smelled pretty unforgettable....would rats smell anything like a human? I mean rats eat pretty much anything people do...idk but had to share ^_^

Nore
10-19-2008, 11:50 PM
I am sorry I haven't read through the whole thread to see if this was discussed....

But, if they found maggots, could they not test those maggots to see what they had been feeding on (ie dna??)

I seem to remember that entomologists have studied soil sample where a body has been found and they could examine the insects and such in that area and some are that are known to feed on human remains can be tested and they can determine how long the remains had been there and such. (maybe I have read too many crime novels.

So is it possible they were able to do some test on the maggots found and possibly this is the "cutting edge" test they were talking about on NG???
--------------------
Yes they can study the maggots,Blowflies etc.and even tell how long (appro.) a person has been dead. This is all explained at the BodyFarm website.It is a very interesting read.They can withdraw DNA..

AutomaticAuttie
11-01-2008, 04:36 PM
I have a question, do you think one could tell the difference between human decomp and animal decomp? The reason I ask is because this past week I had to help my 7th grade son with his insect project for science. He had collected about 18 insects and had to keep them frozen to preserve them until he could mount them on a board. He took them all out of the freezer one week from this past Thursday and took them school for that week. And this past Thursday he brought them home so we mount the insects on a board. I have to say not only does my office still smell, I had to where a mask just to help him to keep for throwing up. I have never smelled anything like it! It was by far the worst smell I have ever encountered.

darlin gal
11-01-2008, 04:45 PM
A police officer, a nurse and a homicide investigator knows the difference. So does properly trained cadaver dogs.

RR0004
11-01-2008, 04:55 PM
I have a question, do you think one could tell the difference between human decomp and animal decomp? The reason I ask is because this past week I had to help my 7th grade son with his insect project for science. He had collected about 18 insects and had to keep them frozen to preserve them until he could mount them on a board. He took them all out of the freezer one week from this past Thursday and took them school for that week. And this past Thursday he brought them home so we mount the insects on a board. I have to say not only does my office still smell, I had to where a mask just to help him to keep for throwing up. I have never smelled anything like it! It was by far the worst smell I have ever encountered.
What they say is true...there is NOTHING like it!!

Pink Panther
11-01-2008, 04:57 PM
I always thought it was strange that Casey took a shower at JG's apartment. Maybe due to the smell?
I believe that she had already disposed of the body either before or on June 27th. She most likely had nowhere to sleep on the 30th (Tony had left that day) and she spent most of the night in his car. She needed a place to shower.

MOO

bbaldwin
11-01-2008, 05:03 PM
URGENT & LIMITED SUPPLY: Websleuths T-Shirts for Caylee searchers available now and will ship on Tuesday for arrival to your address on Thursday in time for the search next weekend. LIMITED SUPPLY SO....

VISIT: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74103

Brini
11-01-2008, 05:44 PM
I have a question, do you think one could tell the difference between human decomp and animal decomp? The reason I ask is because this past week I had to help my 7th grade son with his insect project for science. He had collected about 18 insects and had to keep them frozen to preserve them until he could mount them on a board. He took them all out of the freezer one week from this past Thursday and took them school for that week. And this past Thursday he brought them home so we mount the insects on a board. I have to say not only does my office still smell, I had to where a mask just to help him to keep for throwing up. I have never smelled anything like it! It was by far the worst smell I have ever encountered.

People might couldn't, but the dogs could tell the dif.

Gaia713
11-01-2008, 05:49 PM
People might couldn't, but the dogs could tell the dif. I have smelled a decomposing rat and was told it was NOTHING like a decomposing human. Human flesh psroduces different chemicals than animals do. Kobe explained this very well BEFORE he was hired for the defense. Dogs are trained to alert on two chemicals produced by HUMAN decomp.

bbaldwin
11-01-2008, 06:00 PM
URGENT & LIMITED SUPPLY: Websleuths T-Shirts for Caylee searchers available now and will arrive to your address in time for the search next weekend. LIMITED SUPPLY SO....

VISIT: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74103

Gram2
11-01-2008, 06:03 PM
I don't know how long it takes for decomp to start, but I'll tell you this. My husband died in our bed. It took about 2 hours to have him removed from our home, and the smell left behind was bad. I had to remove all of the carpeting and have the AC ducts cleaned to rid the house of the smell of death.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 06:06 PM
Some things really need clarification. Earlier on in the thread (first 2 or 3 pages) it was mentioned that pigs smell the closest to human, etc.

1. Cadaver dogs trained on porcine decomp will "hit" on porcine decomp or the decomp of other animals, not the human animal.
2. The dogs trained in the UK (where that link was from) are trained on porcine and psuedo because it's illegal to use human cadaver for these training purposes in the UK.
3. Many people have the ability to get small parts of the human body, decomposing, for "training purposes". Often, the dogs are overwhelmed when they actually come across a whole body decomposing. They are not all trained on a whole decomposing or large percentage of decomposing body. For that reason the dogs really do need proper training and certification. That includes more than just the ocassional decomposing finger or toe. For that reason the dog will give a "false alert" of sorts at the very outskirts of the decomposing body as a result of the "scent". (Very simplified explanation.)
4. "Pseudo" putracine and cadaverine are no substitute for accuracy in the properly trained cadaver dog. They will hit on the "pseudo" which makes for inaccuracy.

Now, if anyone doubts this look at the case of Analice Guerra. Some yahoo who was brought in from the UK with his Brittany Spaniels, a supposed "expert" that puts me in mind of that Anderson woman, at considerable expense.

He stated emphatically that the child would be found in the creek behind the apartments as that's where his dogs tracked. Considerable (hundreds of thousands of dollars) were spent draining that creek. (Guess who ultimately pays for that and Smyrna is not a "big" town.) She was not there. Nor were the remains of any "animals". They did find a missing bicycle. http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e276/JustLurkin_photos/rolleye.gif

This was after local Bloodhound teams tracked and found no trace of her heading towards that creek at all! They were accurate. She was "tracked" to the parking lot and this whole thing was a slap in their faces.

Her remains were found miles away, (less than 4 miles from where I live now) behind Stone's River Battlefield. Not having a map right here I would guess about 10 miles from where she "disappeared", as in home. :( There's a lot more to that story, I assure you.

The smell of decomp is one that you won't forget. I can't explain it. It does carry. When we found Terry Lattimer he'd been dead in the California Desert for several days. We smelled it from almost half a mile away while horseback. Two of the horses were skittish for several weeks afterwards in that area, and he was lifted with a backhoe, including underlying material, when he was recovered.

The bottom line is, small "decomp" material, as long as it's human is acceptable to start training with. Pseudo is not acceptable at any time. Larger bodies of decomp are really necessary to train, proof and certify the dog. An arm, a leg, a torso, etc.

Decomp'ing animals, including porcine, are used to teach a dog that there is no reward for alerting to "trash".

AutomaticAuttie
11-01-2008, 06:12 PM
I don't know how long it takes for decomp to start, but I'll tell you this. My husband died in our bed. It took about 2 hours to have him removed from our home, and the smell left behind was bad. I had to remove all of the carpeting and have the AC ducts cleaned to rid the house of the smell of death.

My papa was dying of cancer and wanted to die at home vs. a hospital. My mom and all my aunts were there for the last two and half weeks as he was dying. And hospice came in and explained how the body begins to die and the process which might explain why so quickly it began to smell.

SleuthyGal
11-01-2008, 06:22 PM
My papa was dying of cancer and wanted to die at home vs. a hospital. My mom and all my aunts were there for the last two and half weeks as he was dying. And hospice came in and explained how the body begins to die and the process which might explain why so quickly it began to smell.

It must be different for someone sick/dying over a period of time vs. someone who dies suddenly. My brother died very suddenly in bed, of a heart attack, and wasn't found for 2 days in his apt. (this was during the wintertime of that year). When my mother cleaned out his apt about 5 days after he died, she said there was no odor she noticed at all, and was quite relieved.

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:23 PM
I have a question, do you think one could tell the difference between human decomp and animal decomp? The reason I ask is because this past week I had to help my 7th grade son with his insect project for science. He had collected about 18 insects and had to keep them frozen to preserve them until he could mount them on a board. He took them all out of the freezer one week from this past Thursday and took them school for that week. And this past Thursday he brought them home so we mount the insects on a board. I have to say not only does my office still smell, I had to where a mask just to help him to keep for throwing up. I have never smelled anything like it! It was by far the worst smell I have ever encountered.

Trust me on this............you can tell all the difference in the world. If you had a problem smelling insects.............NEVER go around a slaughter house. It is 1000 times worse, and human decomposition is 1000 times worse than animal.

It is a smell you will never forget & even stuffing Vicks up your nostrils will not hide. It gets in your throat, your hair and everything around in a very short period of time. Cars which have had human decomp in them just have to be destroyed. Even if you strip them to the metal the smell is still there.

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:24 PM
I don't know how long it takes for decomp to start, but I'll tell you this. My husband died in our bed. It took about 2 hours to have him removed from our home, and the smell left behind was bad. I had to remove all of the carpeting and have the AC ducts cleaned to rid the house of the smell of death.

That is true because the body starts decomposition at the moment of death.

BeavisMom62
11-01-2008, 06:25 PM
I've never smelled a decomp human that I know of, but when I was little, our elderly neighbor used to come over for dinner all the time, as his wife had died. One night as he was leaving and he walked by me, both my dad and I noticed the "smell of death". It wasn't decomp, I've smelled many dead animals, but it was impending death. I'll never forget it. He died that night.

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:26 PM
It must be different for someone sick/dying over a period of time vs. someone who dies suddenly. My brother died very suddenly in bed, of a heart attack, and wasn't found for 2 days in his apt. (this was during the wintertime of that year). When my mother cleaned out his apt about 5 days after he died, she said there was no odor she noticed at all, and was quite relieved.

That would be very unusual unless the temperature was very low, or she had a sinus infection. In two days a lot of decomposition has processed. Just the emptying of the bladder and bowels alone would leave a smell.

austin
11-01-2008, 06:27 PM
Jaguar’s been cleaned but still stinks
By Tom & Ray Magliozzi/ Car Talk
Sunday, October 19, 2008


Dear Tom and Ray:

I was given a 1987 XJ6 Jag. She’s one fine-looking lady. But she smells. I recently spent $1,100 of my government stimulus check having the car completely cleaned on the inside. My mechanic (a very honest, small-town guy) took out all the carpeting and the seats, and cleaned them. He replaced the roof lining. He then scoured the entire inside of the car before putting the seats and carpet back. He used a cleaning machine recommended by another client who’d cleaned his pickup after a fire. He sprayed everything with Febreze and placed packs of charcoal under the seats. I picked it up after a month in the shop. It’s better. But only marginally. Any other suggestions (we’ve done the cut onions, the dryer sheets, an air freshener “bomb,” etc., prior to this very expensive last resort)? Help!

- Jill



TOM: You might want to try a real bomb next.

RAY: Actually, my brother had a similar problem with his ’74 Chevy Caprice Classic Convertible, Jill. It took us a long time to find the cause of the odor. But we finally figured it out. It was him.

TOM: There are two possibilities. One is that you’ve got a bad case of mold. Cleaning the seats and carpets might not be enough if you didn’t specifically treat for mold. You need bleach or a biocide to kill the spores. Soap, odor removers, onions and old gym socks are all useless against a huge mold spore invasion.

RAY: The other possibility is that a small animal died somewhere in the car. If a mouse or rat got stuck in a ventilation duct or in your air cleaner, it can produce a disgusting and almost unbearable odor that can last for months, until the carcass eventually disintegrates.

TOM: So, what you need is someone with a good nose. I’d help you myself, but mine’s just big, not particularly good.

RAY: You need to find someone who’s familiar with both of those smells. Your best bet is an automotive detailer, or someone who works in a body shop. Ask him or her to sniff your Jaguar. Make sure you give the appropriate background before making that request, because someone could take it the wrong way.

TOM: Once you know what you’re looking for, you can form a plan to get rid of it. Animal remains can be searched for and removed - or simply waited out. Moldy carpet and its underlying padding can be treated with a biocide, or can be replaced.

RAY: Or, here’s a creative approach. You already know of a cleaning machine that works on smoke odor. So, light the interior on fire, and then use the machine!

http://www.carfind.com/news/view.bg?articleid=1126386

Read this article this morning in my local paper and laughed and laughed

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:28 PM
I've never smelled a decomp human that I know of, but when I was little, our elderly neighbor used to come over for dinner all the time, as his wife had died. One night as he was leaving and he walked by me, both my dad and I noticed the "smell of death". It wasn't decomp, I've smelled many dead animals, but it was impending death. I'll never forget it. He died that night.

Many who work in hospitals "know" that smell. Like the smell of cancer, or the smell of whooping cough. Things have distinctive smells.

dcorrigano
11-01-2008, 06:28 PM
One thing I was wondering about with the smell being so bad from the car, wouldn't the person who had towed it to be inpounded have smelled it also? I would think there would have been a call made then to the pd so it could be looked into, what if there had still been a body in the trunk?

VB


This was CAs claim, that the tow guy didnt smell it and someone added a dead body after it was at the tow yard...What CA didnt mention, but LE has in its files and in the interview...

the tow guy had a terrible cold, couldnt smell or taste anything.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 06:29 PM
Trust me on this............you can tell all the difference in the world. If you had a problem smelling insects.............NEVER go around a slaughter house. It is 1000 times worse, and human decomposition is 1000 times worse than animal.

It is a smell you will never forget & even stuffing Vicks up your nostrils will not hide. It gets in your throat, your hair and everything around in a very short period of time. Cars which have had human decomp in them just have to be destroyed. Even if you strip them to the metal the smell is still there.

(Bold by me.)

Vick's is never used. Vick's clears the nasal pasages and makes the scent more "pungent", so to speak.

SleuthinCa
11-01-2008, 06:29 PM
I grew up in a house that was a half mile away from the Mexican border, right next to a canal on the border that immigrants would cross and often drown in. I smelled quite a few bodies through the years. I've also smelled quite a few rotting animals (cows, pigs, etc) and while they do smell awful, it's NOTHING like human decomp.

SleuthyGal
11-01-2008, 06:30 PM
That would be very unusual unless the temperature was very low, or she had a sinus infection. In two days a lot of decomposition has processed. Just the emptying of the bladder and bowels alone would leave a smell.

That's what I assumed too, and maybe she was somehow immune to it or had a cold (though I don't recall her having any kind of cold or sinus issue, but who knows)...I can only pass along what she told me. She said his mattress wasn't stained either. I don't know; I personally wasn't inside his apt so I can't say what was/wasn't detectable for sure.

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:31 PM
(Bold by me.)

Vick's is never used. Vick's clears the nasal pasages and makes the scent more "pungent", so to speak.

We used clods of Vicks in school for unrefridgerated autopsies.

SleuthyGal
11-01-2008, 06:33 PM
ugh! Is there anything used by medical personnel/funeral workers/morgue personnel that absolutely masks/filters that smell to nearly 100%? Like a gas mask type contraption?

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:34 PM
That's what I assumed too, and maybe she was somehow immune to it or had a cold (though I don't recall her having any kind of cold or sinus issue, but who knows)...I can only pass along what she told me. She said his mattress wasn't stained either. I don't know; I personally wasn't inside his apt so I can't say what was/wasn't detectable for sure.

It rather sounds like she just did not want the family to think of him like that. Sounds like she was trying to protect them.

I have been at gunshot scenes and just the odor of large amounts of blood makes some persons nauseous and faint.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 06:37 PM
We used clods of Vicks in school for unrefridgerated autopsies.

Now they have these things called "respirators". :D

Yes, it was once used. It isn't anymore.

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:43 PM
ugh! Is there anything used by medical personnel/funeral workers/morgue personnel that absolutely masks/filters that smell to nearly 100%? Like a gas mask type contraption?

There is a type of isolation/surgical face mask which is treated with an odor absorbing, crystalline, siliceous molecular sieve material in order to reduce gaseous foul odors related to the biological, chemical or microbial decomposition of organic matter which has been invented, but is not on the market yet that I know of.

Most people in the field become somewhat immune to the smell after a while. It still gets in your clothes and hair, but the smell does not make one nauseous as in the beginning.

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:43 PM
Now they have these things called "respirators". :D

Yes, it was once used. It isn't anymore.

We always had respirators, but our professors would not allow their use.

SleuthyGal
11-01-2008, 06:44 PM
It rather sounds like she just did not want the family to think of him like that. Sounds like she was trying to protect them.

I have been at gunshot scenes and just the odor of large amounts of blood makes some persons nauseous and faint.

I dunno...my mother is not someone to protect her family's feelings (strangers, yes, family NO). In fact, in contrast, the funeral home was apparently unable to embalm my brother for some reason (something to do with the condition of his arteries/veins) and therefore could only do a topical application of embalming solution. My mother was very concerned about their being a possible odor at the funeral so she instructed the funeral home to put the casket w/his body in the hearse and have it there the whole time, and then put an empty casket in the funeral home for the service itself. So clearly she was concerned about there being an odor since it had been several days since he died and complete embalming after the autopsy was not possible.

I asked her directly when she came back from being in his apt. for 8 hrs (the day after his funeral), clearing it out, if she detected any odor and she said no. I doubt she'd lie to me about it; she'd certainly not do it to protect my feelings (heh, you'd have to know how critical my mother is to understand).

TURBOTHINK
11-01-2008, 06:46 PM
I dunno...my mother is not someone to protect her family's feelings (strangers, yes, family NO). In fact, in contrast, the funeral home was apparently unable to embalm my brother for some reason (something to do with the condition of his arteries/veins) and therefore could only do a topical application of embalming solution. My mother was very concerned about their being a possible odor at the funeral so she instructed the funeral home to put the casket w/his body in the hearse and have it there the whole time, and then put an empty casket in the funeral home for the service itself. So clearly she was concerned about there being an odor since it had been several days since he died and complete embalming after the autopsy was not possible.

I asked her directly when she came back from being in his apt. for 8 hrs (the day after his funeral), clearing it out, if she detected any odor and she said no. I doubt she'd lie to me about it; she'd certainly not do it to protect my feelings (heh, you'd have to know how critical my mother is to understand).

That is very interesting...........

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 06:49 PM
We always had respirators, but our professors would not allow their use.


That I really don't understand. The smell alone would be enough to turn a possibly very astute medical examiner of the future off doing the work before becoming "immune".

My son's class is allowed the use of respirators.

Times have changed in that regard, I suppose.

momtective
11-01-2008, 07:08 PM
I was wondering about the "chicken"...in TonyL's statement I believe he mentions that KC had Tyson "Chicken". Now, I'm wondering if we're talking breaded chicken strips, raw chicken breasts or raw whole chicken. The reason I ask is that several years ago before leaving on a week long vacation I prepared chicken for dinner. Hubby forgot to take the trash before we left for vacation the following morning. When we returned a week later we could hardly bare to enter the house. The smell from the rotten chicken in the trash can was overwhelming and there were maggots all over the trash can and kitchen floor. It was the most disgusting thing I've ever smelled and it lingered for weeks even after bleaching the trash can and the kitchen floor. I have smelled animal decomp and live in an area abundant with chicken growers so the smell of rotting chicken corpses is something we live with daily. I'm just wondering if it was raw chicken and it leaked in the trunk could that have been the cause of the smell and the maggots?

AutomaticAuttie
11-01-2008, 07:11 PM
We always had respirators, but our professors would not allow their use.


You preformed autopsies in school? Are you a doctor or something of that nature?

AutomaticAuttie
11-01-2008, 07:12 PM
I was wondering about the "chicken"...in TonyL's statement I believe he mentions that KC had Tyson "Chicken". Now, I'm wondering if we're talking breaded chicken strips, raw chicken breasts or raw whole chicken. The reason I ask is that several years ago before leaving on a week long vacation I prepared chicken for dinner. Hubby forgot to take the trash before we left for vacation the following morning. When we returned a week later we could hardly bare to enter the house. The smell from the rotten chicken in the trash can was overwhelming and there were maggots all over the trash can and kitchen floor. It was the most disgusting thing I've ever smelled and it lingered for weeks even after bleaching the trash can and the kitchen floor. I have smelled animal decomp and live in an area abundant with chicken growers so the smell of rotting chicken corpses is something we live with daily. I'm just wondering if it was raw chicken and it leaked in the trunk could that have been the cause of the smell and the maggots?

Yuck! I hate cleaning chicken for dinner.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 07:12 PM
I was wondering about the "chicken"...in TonyL's statement I believe he mentions that KC had Tyson "Chicken". Now, I'm wondering if we're talking breaded chicken strips, raw chicken breasts or raw whole chicken. The reason I ask is that several years ago before leaving on a week long vacation I prepared chicken for dinner. Hubby forgot to take the trash before we left for vacation the following morning. When we returned a week later we could hardly bare to enter the house. The smell from the rotten chicken in the trash can was overwhelming and there were maggots all over the trash can and kitchen floor. It was the most disgusting thing I've ever smelled and it lingered for weeks even after bleaching the trash can and the kitchen floor. I have smelled animal decomp and live in an area abundant with chicken growers so the smell of rotting chicken corpses is something we live with daily. I'm just wondering if it was raw chicken and it leaked in the trunk could that have been the cause of the smell and the maggots?

The dogs wouldn't have alerted on chicken decomp.

momtective
11-01-2008, 07:14 PM
The dogs wouldn't have alerted on chicken decomp.

You're right...what was I thinking!:waitasec:

AutomaticAuttie
11-01-2008, 07:15 PM
The dogs wouldn't have alerted on chicken decomp.

I wonder why the dog alerted to the right side of the trunk when all the evidence in the trunk with any importance (hair) was found on the left side?

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 07:20 PM
I wonder why the dog alerted to the right side of the trunk when all the evidence in the trunk with any importance (hair) was found on the left side?


The dog alerted to the odor eminating from the vehicle. The trunk is a contained area. The odor would eminate from whatever area was "least sealed". If there was a break in the trunk seal on the right the smell would come from there. It doesn't necessarily mean that the decomp material is right there, on the right. The "scent" is eminating from there.

Had the weaker seal been on the left the dog would have no doubt hit there either first or also. Had the stronger scent been coming from the interior the dog would have alerted there.

eta: The dog alerted where he smelled the scent the strongest.

CBTampa
11-01-2008, 08:19 PM
It is possible that the tow truck driver didn't smell it because it had been sitting outside and exposed to the air? I thought the car was locked, so he could not have gotten in to the car. Perhaps after it was sitting in the garage at tow yard for two weeks (inside of the garage) the smell accumulated.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 08:43 PM
It is possible that the tow truck driver didn't smell it because it had been sitting outside and exposed to the air? I thought the car was locked, so he could not have gotten in to the car. Perhaps after it was sitting in the garage at tow yard for two weeks (inside of the garage) the smell accumulated.


I believe yes.

The actual body wasn't in the car when he picked it up. Depending upon where he hooked the car up and his sense of smell he might not have noticed.

Having no circulation during that two weeks time the smell would remain. Might even intensify as decomp of whatever fluids/tissue/etc. was there continued to permeate the interior. Especially in the Florida heat.

Theonly1
11-01-2008, 08:49 PM
The dog alerted to the odor eminating from the vehicle. The trunk is a contained area. The odor would eminate from whatever area was "least sealed". If there was a break in the trunk seal on the right the smell would come from there. It doesn't necessarily mean that the decomp material is right there, on the right. The "scent" is eminating from there.

Had the weaker seal been on the left the dog would have no doubt hit there either first or also. Had the stronger scent been coming from the interior the dog would have alerted there.

eta: The dog alerted where he smelled the scent the strongest.

Hehe! The dog can't tell us (short of giving his "signal") exactly where the decomp is located. Too bad dogs can't talk or point their fingers ("yo, it's right there, stupid humans!"). I've seen cases where they took cadaver dogs out to a site where the dogs "hit" and then criminalists dug and could not find a body. Going back another time (with more evidence that is the right area) they can later find the body a few feet from the original digging site. The dogs smell it but sometimes the scent is in the air.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 08:57 PM
Hehe! The dog can't tell us (short of giving his "signal") exactly where the decomp is located. Too bad dogs can't talk or point their fingers ("yo, it's right there, stupid humans!"). I've seen cases where they took cadaver dogs out to a site where the dogs "hit" and then criminalists dug and could not find a body. Going back another time (with more evidence that is the right area) they can later find the body a few feet from the original digging site. The dogs smell it but sometimes the scent is in the air.


Exactly the same thing that I was referring to when I posted about the use of porcine an Pseudo and smaller cadaver parts. If the smell is that of a larger cadaver (whole body) and the dog is only trained on bits and pieces and a slight scent, he'll alert at the "slight scent" and not necessarily where the body is located. The outskirts of the scent.

hehehe...now, wanna talk about water searches? :eek:

Pity they don't have a smilie with a dog slapping the snot out of a human for not "getting it", isn't there? LOL

Brini
11-01-2008, 09:00 PM
I have smelled a decomposing rat and was told it was NOTHING like a decomposing human. Human flesh psroduces different chemicals than animals do. Kobe explained this very well BEFORE he was hired for the defense. Dogs are trained to alert on two chemicals produced by HUMAN decomp.

I'm sure you are right. I've ONLY smelled human decomp, so I have no comparison.

Brini
11-01-2008, 09:01 PM
I don't know how long it takes for decomp to start, but I'll tell you this. My husband died in our bed. It took about 2 hours to have him removed from our home, and the smell left behind was bad. I had to remove all of the carpeting and have the AC ducts cleaned to rid the house of the smell of death.

,,,and Cayle died in FL in high summer. Wet and hot.

RR0004
11-01-2008, 09:24 PM
I believe yes.

The actual body wasn't in the car when he picked it up. Depending upon where he hooked the car up and his sense of smell he might not have noticed.

Having no circulation during that two weeks time the smell would remain. Might even intensify as decomp of whatever fluids/tissue/etc. was there continued to permeate the interior. Especially in the Florida heat.
You seem to know you're stuff...but I can verify that very well could be. Everyone assumes there needed to be an odor prior to the car being left at the tow yard. The smell of decomp has a tough time penetrating steel (and brick).

jandkmom
11-01-2008, 09:28 PM
When he picked up the car, even if he caught a whiff of a bad smell, he may have assumed it was something in the dumpster. After it got to the tow yard, he may not have been around the car much.

Manny
11-01-2008, 09:31 PM
I don't understand, if Caylee was murdered or had an accident on June 17th and the car wasn't towed until the 30.. the guy didn't smell anything?? Even with a cold and all the theories about her carrying that child in the trunk for days doesn't make any sense to..the smell would have been overwhelming. Is it possible that the "event" was much later, around the 26th or 27th. Perhaps after a week or two the odor would be more pronounced. The car was towed on the 30th but wasn't picked up until a week or more later was it?

jandkmom
11-01-2008, 09:46 PM
I think there was decomp in the trunk, but not enough at that time to be smelled too much because the car was still being used. After it was towed, it sat in the tow yard closed up and with the heat and the doors and trunk not being opened, was just overwhelming when finally opened up again.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 10:05 PM
You seem to know you're stuff...but I can verify that very well could be. Everyone assumes there needed to be an odor prior to the car being left at the tow yard. The smell of decomp has a tough time penetrating steel (and brick).

And what part of that vehicle was steel or brick?

Frame? The trunk and interior certainly weren't.

What part of that vehicle was steel or brick that would discredit a search dog's discovery/alert?

Not just for decomp. How about for drugs? Cash? Any other contraband?

What part of the vehicle is steel or brink that would prevent discovery?

Do tell?

RR0004
11-01-2008, 10:29 PM
And what part of that vehicle was steel or brick?

Frame? The trunk and interior certainly weren't.

What part of that vehicle was steel or brick that would discredit a search dog's discovery/alert?

Not just for decomp. How about for drugs? Cash? Any other contraband?

What part of the vehicle is steel or brink that would prevent discovery?

Do tell?
I was just agreeing...there are some materials that can keep the smell from permeating through. The smell may not have been as obvious when the car was picked up by the tow operator, but days later when George arrived it was.
Yikes! I meant it when I said you knew your stuff.

austin
11-01-2008, 10:31 PM
And there you go....At first I thought my article was amusing but it answers your ..ok not answers but there you go..this is where the A's are

Jaguar’s been cleaned but still stinks
By Tom & Ray Magliozzi/ Car Talk
Sunday, October 19, 2008

Dear Tom and Ray:

I was given a 1987 XJ6 Jag. She’s one fine-looking lady. But she smells. I recently spent $1,100 of my government stimulus check having the car completely cleaned on the inside. My mechanic (a very honest, small-town guy) took out all the carpeting and the seats, and cleaned them. He replaced the roof lining. He then scoured the entire inside of the car before putting the seats and carpet back. He used a cleaning machine recommended by another client who’d cleaned his pickup after a fire. He sprayed everything with Febreze and placed packs of charcoal under the seats. I picked it up after a month in the shop. It’s better. But only marginally. Any other suggestions (we’ve done the cut onions, the dryer sheets, an air freshener “bomb,” etc., prior to this very expensive last resort)? Help!

- Jill

TOM: You might want to try a real bomb next.

RAY: Actually, my brother had a similar problem with his ’74 Chevy Caprice Classic Convertible, Jill. It took us a long time to find the cause of the odor. But we finally figured it out. It was him.

TOM: There are two possibilities. One is that you’ve got a bad case of mold. Cleaning the seats and carpets might not be enough if you didn’t specifically treat for mold. You need bleach or a biocide to kill the spores. Soap, odor removers, onions and old gym socks are all useless against a huge mold spore invasion.

RAY: The other possibility is that a small animal died somewhere in the car. If a mouse or rat got stuck in a ventilation duct or in your air cleaner, it can produce a disgusting and almost unbearable odor that can last for months, until the carcass eventually disintegrates.

TOM: So, what you need is someone with a good nose. I’d help you myself, but mine’s just big, not particularly good.

RAY: You need to find someone who’s familiar with both of those smells. Your best bet is an automotive detailer, or someone who works in a body shop. Ask him or her to sniff your Jaguar. Make sure you give the appropriate background before making that request, because someone could take it the wrong way.

TOM: Once you know what you’re looking for, you can form a plan to get rid of it. Animal remains can be searched for and removed - or simply waited out. Moldy carpet and its underlying padding can be treated with a biocide, or can be replaced.

RAY: Or, here’s a creative approach. You already know of a cleaning machine that works on smoke odor. So, light the interior on fire, and then use the machine!

http://www.carfind.com/news/view.bg?articleid=1126386

RR0004
11-01-2008, 10:31 PM
I think there was decomp in the trunk, but not enough at that time to be smelled too much because the car was still being used. After it was towed, it sat in the tow yard closed up and with the heat and the doors and trunk not being opened, was just overwhelming when finally opened up again.
I tend to agree. CA's reasoning (there was no odor) won't cut it.

RR0004
11-01-2008, 10:39 PM
Austin...I've read this and had a good laugh. Are there other reasons the car smelled? I had a water issue in my old SUV. It was collecting in the undercarriage IIRC what the dealer told me. They told me that the mechanics got sick when they ripped up the carpet and smelled what was going on. I had smelt a "moldy" smell from the wet carpet which was the telltale sign there was something wrong. After they had removed the water, cleaned the car, and cleaned the carpet the smell was gone. I've smelt a dead body...it didn't smell the same.

doogiesgirl
11-01-2008, 10:40 PM
As far as the tow truck driver not smelling the decomp smell as far as I remember in reading the DD is that he did not open the vehicle. Why would he smell it? I could be wrong but I remember reading that when GA went to tow yard to pick the car up, he was walked to the car with a worker and it wasn't until GA opened the car door that the smell hit the both of them like a brick. Right? The tow driver wasn't inside the car at the time of towing so he wouldn't have smelled it.

RR0004
11-01-2008, 10:42 PM
As far as the tow truck driver not smelling the decomp smell as far as I remember in reading the DD is that he did not open the vehicle. Why would he smell it? I could be wrong but I remember reading that when GA went to tow yard to pick the car up, he was walked to the car with a worker and it wasn't until GA opened the car door that the smell hit the both of them like a brick. Right? The tow driver wasn't inside the car at the time of towing so he wouldn't have smelled it.
Like I said...Cindy's arguement just won't fly.

JusticeorJustUs
11-01-2008, 10:43 PM
I was just agreeing...there are some materials that can keep the smell from permeating through. The smell may not have been as obvious when the car was picked up by the tow operator, but days later when George arrived it was.
Yikes! I meant it when I said you knew your stuff.

:blushing: I didn't mean to make it sound insulting or anything like that.

You are correct. The tow driver didn't need to open up the vehicle in order to tow it or store it. When GA opened it....Wow! Very obvious.

austin
11-01-2008, 10:58 PM
Austin...I've read this and had a good laugh. Are there other reasons the car smelled? I had a water issue in my old SUV. It was collecting in the undercarriage IIRC what the dealer told me. They told me that the mechanics got sick when they ripped up the carpet and smelled what was going on. I had smelt a "moldy" smell from the wet carpet which was telltale sign there was something wrong. After they had removed the water, cleaned the car, and cleaned the carpet the smell was gone. I've smelt a dead body...it didn't smell the same.

Exactly..yes there are many reasons. I, having bought a flooded car for my son, agree with you. Just trying to make the point that there is no smell that compares to human decomp. But many people will give differing reasons for the smell in their car .. including defense agruments. Trying to stay on topic at the same time trying to give a chuckle..there is no explanation for the smell other than decomp.

magic-cat
11-03-2008, 01:42 PM
From all reports from folks who have smelled actual human decomposition-ie: a dead body: There is nothing else that smells LIKE it or that can be mistaken FOR it. We know it was not pizza as Cindy suggests as there was NO pizza recovered in the car or in the bag that held the EMPTY pizza box. The FBI forensics report (preliminary) indicates HUMAN decomp in the car. The defense had best search far and wide for some "other" explanation than what they have demonstrated thus far (pizza, squirrels) because that just isn't going to work. It would be nice if a few of the jurors had actually smelled decomposition.:eek:

impatientredhead
11-03-2008, 02:09 PM
I don't think the tow driver not smelling it is odd:

He does not state that he knows what decomp smells like, the owner of the lot said that he did (suicide victim).

He had a cold that day.

She was parked near a dumpster.

The owner of the lot said many of the cars have food etc left in them and smell horrible after sitting out in the sun. I know the smell is different, but if the driver hasn't been exposed to it before he wouldn't know.

The people on the lot, where the car sat for two weeks, didn't say that you could smell it just walking by it (I think the owner noticed it at one point when he realized the car had been there so long, but he had to get close to it to notice).

kiki the parrot
11-04-2008, 12:01 AM
I believe even KC's friends reported there had been a foul smell but even if it was only KC herself who was explaining away the horrible stench which had permeated even the interior of the car, it must have been far worse after being closed up for two weeks (LA described it as pungent and overpowering even after being aired and probably cleaned), and just plain WRETCHED upon first opening the trunk itself... gag... JMO

DotsEyes
11-04-2008, 02:06 AM
Well, if the odor permeated the car's interior, then just keep it locked up in the heat until trial and let the jurors take a sniff for themselves. It will still be there.

essies
11-04-2008, 02:31 AM
Well, if the odor permeated the car's interior, then just keep it locked up in the heat until trial and let the jurors take a sniff for themselves. It will still be there.

Well, there's an interesting thought! Does the car still smell after all the testing and I'm sure pieces of it removed for testing?:waitasec:

magic-cat
11-04-2008, 02:34 AM
Well, if the odor permeated the car's interior, then just keep it locked up in the heat until trial and let the jurors take a sniff for themselves. It will still be there.

I would almost bet they have every intention of allowing the jurors to smell the car. I would bet it smells as bad if not worse today than it did in the first days that it was confiscated.

Pegster57
11-04-2008, 10:58 AM
:eek:

So then how *do* pathologists and funeral home employees deal with it as it must be quite common in their everyday lives?

My DH is a cop and they put Vicks Vapor-Rub under their nose to mask the smell.

Celt1997
11-04-2008, 11:17 AM
My DH is a cop and they put Vicks Vapor-Rub under their nose to mask the smell.

It makes me think of the scene in Silence of the Lambs where they all put the cream under their nose to mask the smell. It was kind of funny, though, in a dark way, that the coroner didn't put any on. I guess when you smell it enough, it's just part of the job.

Manny
11-04-2008, 11:27 AM
I would almost bet they have every intention of allowing the jurors to smell the car. I would bet it smells as bad if not worse today than it did in the first days that it was confiscated.

I thought I read somewhere that the car had been completely dismantled. Every inch of the car had been tested for various things. My only interest in the odor was the time line for Caylee's death.

kiki the parrot
11-04-2008, 11:50 AM
Well, if the odor permeated the car's interior, then just keep it locked up in the heat until trial and let the jurors take a sniff for themselves. It will still be there.

Superb idea. And Essies even if you're right, let the jurors smell a well preserved sample, just a waft of a scrap. They'll keel over, but when they come back around they can rule out squirrels or pizza. JMHO

4oneluv
11-04-2008, 02:16 PM
I tend to agree. CA's reasoning (there was no odor) won't cut it.

Cindy A is the one that reported the smell in the car when they picked it up, she knew at that point that something had happened. Now she is saying that it was pizza, hard rock dried pizza does not smell like "a damn body has been in the car" :bang: She knew what she was dealing with at that point.

Friday
11-04-2008, 02:48 PM
People, we're laboring under a huge false assumption here--one that is defeating our efforts to pin down the dates when Caylee's body could have been in the trunk...

Unlike other odors, the smell of human decomp in an enclosed area doesn't weaken after the body is removed, it grows stronger~

I distinctly remember hearing two forensics experts attest to this fact many weeks ago on Nancy Grace or Greta. Sorry I can't offer a link, but I am positive this is what was said.

I only read through the first 150 messages on this topic, so if this point has already been made, I apologize for the redundancy.

kgeaux
11-04-2008, 03:21 PM
My DH is a cop and they put Vicks Vapor-Rub under their nose to mask the smell.

One of my dear friends is a police officer, and he says he uses Vicks for very bad cases, cases in which there is extensive decomp: in the normal case, he says the nose becomes overwhelmed with the smell very quickly, and within a couple of minutes, you aren't aware of the smell anymore.

With extensive decomp, he says the smell overwhelms even the Vicks and gets into your clothes and hair: he leaves autopsies to go home and shower and change. He has thrown away clothes he was wearing during an autopsy on a body that had been in the water for a while.....

kgeaux
11-04-2008, 03:25 PM
Respectfully snipped and bolded by me:



After the body was removed from the closed-up car, the smell of decomp wouldn't just linger, it would grow stronger.

I distinctly remember hearing two forensics experts attest to this fact many weeks ago on Nancy Grace or Greta. Sorry I can't offer a link, but I am positive this is what was said.

Friday, did they say why? I'm very curious about this, because it seems to me (I'm OH so finite!) that the odor would dissipate once the body was removed. I'd love to understand the science behind what the experts said.

treeseeker
11-04-2008, 03:55 PM
I'm not an expert, but my best understanding is that any fluid in the liner would continue to emit odor, and the ratio of chemicals found after sealing the liner in a bag, would be the signature for human decomp. Even dried fluids would continue to emit odorous particles, although at a slower rate than wet. If there had been no fluid, I don't think the air testing would have been as valuable given the time passed.

Bodies sometimes liquify after death, depending on environment, and they usually evacuate, which causes the initial odor. I hate to be gross, but post-mortem evacuation can be very foul, if any time has passed since death.

IMO, the FBI report we've seen is very preliminary and incomplete. Another poster, who knows more than me, was able to adjust the approx. time of death based on real FL temps rather than the averages used. I'm sure the final FBI report will also be more accurate re temp/environmental conditions.

Friday
11-04-2008, 04:22 PM
People, we're laboring under a huge false assumption here--one that is defeating our efforts to pin down the dates when Caylee's body could have been in the trunk...

Unlike other odors, the smell of human decomp in an enclosed area doesn't weaken after the body is removed, it grows stronger~

I distinctly remember hearing two forensics experts attest to this fact many weeks ago on Nancy Grace or Greta. Sorry I can't offer a link, but I am positive this is what was said.

I only read through the first 150 messages on this topic, so if this point has already been made, I apologize for the redundancy.



Friday, did they say why? I'm very curious about this, because it seems to me (I'm OH so finite!) that the odor would dissipate once the body was removed. I'd love to understand the science behind what the experts said.

They didn't say why, but there are many science-oriented experts here at WS that could answer that question. Please ask them, I'd love to know too, but am on an awful work deadline.

:)

Advocate4
11-11-2008, 02:37 AM
I've been meaning to ask this question: why would human decomp smell any different than the decomp of an animal of similar size? Specifically, a "mammal" of similar size to humans? We are mammals too, so I don't quite see why human decomp smell would differ particularly from that of another mammal.

***Would Really Like An Answer if Anyone Knows*** :)

BondJamesBond
11-11-2008, 03:21 AM
Friday, did they say why? I'm very curious about this, because it seems to me (I'm OH so finite!) that the odor would dissipate once the body was removed. I'd love to understand the science behind what the experts said.

OK. I don't have a background in forensics, but, a little knowledge of biology. Here's a hack of an answer that can be fixed by more knowlegable...

The decomp odor is a byproduct of bacteria digesting the tissue. The bacteria continue to multiply while the 'food source' is present. They multiply at an exponential rate, IOW, population doubles each generation, and the larger population consumes the tissue and generates a larger volume of byproduct...this continues until the tissue is depleted and that bacteria die. Hence, trace amounts of tissue left behind after the body has been removed serve to keep the bacterial colony, and decomp byproduct, growing for a period of time.

This link does a decent job of describing the cycle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_growth

Also worth noting that cadaver dogs' threshold for detecting the decomp odor is much, much lower than ours.

TruthSeeker
11-11-2008, 07:26 AM
It is possible that the tow truck driver didn't smell it because it had been sitting outside and exposed to the air? I thought the car was locked, so he could not have gotten in to the car. Perhaps after it was sitting in the garage at tow yard for two weeks (inside of the garage) the smell accumulated.

The car was locked? Where did I hear that Casey had left her purse sitting on the seat and the car was unlocked (i.e. the theory that she was tempting someone to steal the car)? Anyone remember where that info came from?

Pink Panther
11-11-2008, 07:46 AM
The car was locked? Where did I hear that Casey had left her purse sitting on the seat and the car was unlocked (i.e. the theory that she was tempting someone to steal the car)? Anyone remember where that info came from?
Cindy tried to imply this and until the first document dump came out, everyone assumed that the car was left unlocked. It wasn't. It was locked.

TruthSeeker
11-11-2008, 08:01 AM
Cindy tried to imply this and until the first document dump came out, everyone assumed that the car was left unlocked. It wasn't. It was locked.

Thank you! I remembered much discussion about this but did not remember where the info came from about the purse, car unlocked.

Bev
11-11-2008, 12:33 PM
What might be confusing people here is that the trunk liner and trunk carpet are two different things. When fluids leaked in the trunk they went from the carpet fibers through the carpet backing and then on to the plastic trunk liner. No matter how many times the carpet was washed unless the carpet backing and the liner was washed too, the odour would keep getting worse. To remove the odour completely you would have to replace the carpet and the plastic liner because plastic will absorb odour.

Secondly, the report isn't saying that the odour was such that they can tell how long the body might have been in the car, they're saying that the ratio of calcium to magnesium detected after the LIBS test indicated a post mortem intervel of 2.6 days - the body was in the car for 2.6 days before she disposed of it.

BondJamesBond
11-11-2008, 01:00 PM
Secondly, the report isn't saying that the odour was such that they can tell how long the body might have been in the car, they're saying that the ratio of calcium to magnesium detected after the LIBS test indicated a post mortem intervel of 2.6 days - the body was in the car for 2.6 days before she disposed of it.

*snipped*

Bev - my apologies, I'm slow...

Is the 2.6 days determination, a delta vs. time of death, or delta time into vs. out of trunk? I was thinking (maybe erroneously) that the ratio fixed the delta vs. time of death...IOW...the latest fix of the stain = 2.6 days after t.o.d., whether the clock was stopped by (a) removing the body, (b) encapsulating the body in plastic/container, etc., or (c) something I haven't thought of yet.

Very important to understand the difference, IMHO. For example, LP floating theory about 6/25 and bag tearing upon removal from car resulting in stain would be easily debunked if the ratio is a delta to baseline @ t.o.d., however, if stain was created prior to encapsulation (e.g. "b" above) and there was no bag tear, then, there's still some plausbility to a later removal date.

Without knowing the extent of the stain other than "basketball size", I assume it is also possibly the result of diffusion through the wall of encapsulation without mechanically breaching it.

I want to assume this is delta vs. t.o.d....please set me straight.

TIA!

Bev
11-11-2008, 02:28 PM
I keep trying to explain this in understandable terms and for some reason keep missing the mark. I'll try again -

The LIBS test is a laser induced breakdown spectroscopy test. It is fairly new in forensics and although the claims are fairly well proven that it is even more reliable than carbon dating the defense experts will go after it tooth and nail. It directs a laser directily over the surface of the sample - it doesn't touch the sample or damage it in any way the way other tests need to destroy the sample in order to test it. (There are negotiations underway to use it to test the Shroud of Turin which is a whole other story but for those interested in forensics it is well worth the research.)
Another reason why it is becoming the preferred test in dating is because unlike the gas chromography, the LIBS tests inorganic as well as organic elements. I'm not even going to attempt to explain how it works, there is plenty of literature out there, although, again for those interested in forensics, they're developing a portable LIBS which would be a huge breakthrough in calculating time of death.

So what the report says is that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant in measuring post mortem intervals. After 90 accumulated degree days (in Celsius) the ratio of calcium to magnesium is 5 : 1. The calcium concentrates as it leaches from the body at a steady, measurable ratio. In measuring the ratio of calcium to magnesium, the body was IN the car for 2. 6 days, which would mean that disposal would be around 1 pm to around 6 pm on the 18th of June. The report is assuming the means temp for those days was 33 celsius, but I have considered that the means for those days in question was lower than that, probably 27 to 30 celsius which might have slowed the leaching and I also believe that she was probably wrapped up in a towel or blanket which would have been semi - airtight, so the window for disposal may go as long as the 20th of June. (But that is just conjecture on my part.) The calcium : magnesium was such that the body was in the trunk from the first day of death until approximately 2.6 days after death and the concentration of calcium to magnesium proves that to be correct.

LP does not have a clue as to what he is talking about. If it had been a bag tear on the 25th to the 27th, the ratio of calcium to magnesium would have reflected that.

By the way, the worst thing KC could have done if she tried to clean the trunk was to scrub at the stain - all that would have accomplished is to push the chemicals further into the carpet backing and onto the lining of the trunk. It's like that mysterious stain that keeps reappearing on the carpet in your house, not matter how many times you've scrubbed it - you've just pushed it into the backing and the padding and everytime someone walks on it the pressure is displacing the spill or whatever.

aeli2468
11-11-2008, 03:06 PM
So what the report says is that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant in measuring post mortem intervals. After 90 accumulated degree days (in Celsius) the ratio of calcium to magnesium is 5 : 1. The calcium concentrates as it leaches from the body at a steady, measurable ratio. In measuring the ratio of calcium to magnesium, the body was IN the car for 2. 6 days, which would mean that disposal would be around 1 pm to around 6 pm on the 18th of June. The report is assuming the means temp for those days was 33 celsius, but I have considered that the means for those days in question was lower than that, probably 27 to 30 celsius which might have slowed the leaching and I also believe that she was probably wrapped up in a towel or blanket which would have been semi - airtight, so the window for disposal may go as long as the 20th of June. (But that is just conjecture on my part.) The calcium : magnesium was such that the body was in the trunk from the first day of death until approximately 2.6 days after death and the concentration of calcium to magnesium proves that to be correct.


Bev - thanks so much for explaining this. now I think I see where the 2.6 days is coming from. glad some WSer's have better science/forensic knowledge than me :)

BondJamesBond
11-11-2008, 03:35 PM
I keep trying to explain this in understandable terms and for some reason keep missing the mark. I'll try again -


So what the report says is that the ratio of calcium to magnesium is a constant in measuring post mortem intervals. After 90 accumulated degree days (in Celsius) the ratio of calcium to magnesium is 5 : 1. The calcium concentrates as it leaches from the body at a steady, measurable ratio. In measuring the ratio of calcium to magnesium, the body was IN the car for 2. 6 days, which would mean that disposal would be around 1 pm to around 6 pm on the 18th of June. The report is assuming the means temp for those days was 33 celsius, but I have considered that the means for those days in question was lower than that, probably 27 to 30 celsius which might have slowed the leaching and I also believe that she was probably wrapped up in a towel or blanket which would have been semi - airtight, so the window for disposal may go as long as the 20th of June. (But that is just conjecture on my part.) The calcium : magnesium was such that the body was in the trunk from the first day of death until approximately 2.6 days after death and the concentration of calcium to magnesium proves that to be correct.

LP does not have a clue as to what he is talking about. If it had been a bag tear on the 25th to the 27th, the ratio of calcium to magnesium would have reflected that.


*snipped* & bold by me

Bev - thanks again for sharing, the meticulous explanation, and your patience.

So...to confirm my understanding...the ratio is cumulative (based on degree-days) and is extrapolated back to the time of death.

Question is...the ending point is based on when the body is no longer in contact w/ the sample surface...correct? IOW, the ratio is set by the stage (cumulative degree-days) of decomp at precisely that last date & time of contact w/ the sample surface.

In side-by-side analysis and oversimplifying by assuming all other things equal:

Sample A: Body goes into trunk @ T.O.D. (t=0) and stays there continuously until t=2.6 days, The Ca/Mg of the sample will be higher than that of Sample B.

Sample B: Body goes into trunk @ T.O.D. (t=0), is removed for the period t=1day through t=2days, to an area cooler than the trunk, then, is replaced in the trunk for the period t=2days through t=2.6 days. The Ca/Mg of the sample will be lower than that of Sample A.

Sample C: Same as Sample B except when the body goes back into the trunk @ t=2 days it is effectively encapsulated in plastic, etc., then removed @ t=2.6days. The effective Ca/Mg of this sample stain is that of t=2 days, and lower than Sample B, correct?

If I have this correct, the "2.6 days" is a direct function of degree-days, hence, the temperature history of the environment to which the body was exposed plays a vital role in establishing the exact date/time of the last known exposure of the body to the stain via Ca/Mg ratio. The "2.6 days" provided is simply a benchmark using the approximate degree-days environment of the trunk for the entire duration since t=0 until the stage of decomp consistent w/ the Ca/Mg ratio measured (some have adjusted w/ more granular data).

TIA!

Bev
11-11-2008, 04:57 PM
I don't know. My assumption would be that since it is an accumulative event, that the calcium : magnesium would concentrate on each degree day. Based on the percentage of weight of calcium and magnesium in the human body, the calcium : magnesium would be 30 : 1 on day one of the event and then concentrate to 5 : 1 on day ninety. Now I don't know if the 30 : 1 is correct, it is a conjecture on my part but obviously, the ratio would be more concentrated on day 2 and then on day 3, etc. Whether the body has to be in direct contact with the surface I have no idea - it may not, because we have no idea as to how that stain got there - was it a leak, was it direct contact, was it a spill, was it secondary transfer? I just do not have that information.

I'm making an educated guess that the body was probably wrapped in a blanket or towel, the towel or blanket was in direct contact with the trunk floor and fluids leaked through to the carpet - because of compression, the fluids were pushed through the carpet to the trunk liner where they continued to decay causing the odour to grow stronger over time. In those fluids, the concentration of calcium to magnesium was such that they were able to determine that the body, not the fluids produced by the body, but the body itself was in the car for approx. 2.6 days.

Again, whether or not temp actually does have an effect on the calcium : magnesium, I don't know, I would think that it would because temp affects all aspects of decomp. I was conjecturing that if temp did affect it, then the temp cited by the report was off by around 3 degrees.

Another thought - what would be the point of removing the body after 2.6 days, putting it someplace and then putting it back in the trunk? Anyone is going to want to get rid of the body as quickly as possible. We're overthinking this, in my opinion - we're not talking about a complicated person here, we're talking about someone whose sole concern is for herself. Also, getting rid of a body is not really a mind bender in Florida - gators, woods, waterways and lakes - it takes one minute to walk from the car into the woods, drop a body and walk out. No one is going to want to linger and run the risk of getting caught unless it is someone who has a fetish or a wish to get caught.

Pattymarie
11-11-2008, 05:10 PM
I recently smelled human decomposition in the hallway of a funeral home. A place that is designed to mask this smell and it still seeped through. It was horrendous. I couldn't keep from gagging. There was no denying it. None. Thankfully, the smell was abated in the viewing area and we could continue paying our respects. As I left, all I could think about was that the whole A family...GA, CA and LA, who all smelled this odor KNOW Caylee is dead. This was before they cleaned the car. If I could become sick at sanitized human decomposition, imagine what they had to smell.

On top of that, add all the other people (LE, Tow car guy) who smelled it, plus the tests and the dogs. Everyone knows she is gone. Even, the A family. All we got going on now, is the mind's peculiar way of dealing with a horrible, unspeakable tragedy...as GA said, "if I lost my granddaughter, I've lost my daughter, too." Case closed.

panthera
11-11-2008, 05:20 PM
I don't know. My assumption would be that since it is an accumulative event, that the calcium : magnesium would concentrate on each degree day. Based on the percentage of weight of calcium and magnesium in the human body, the calcium : magnesium would be 30 : 1 on day one of the event and then concentrate to 5 : 1 on day ninety. Now I don't know if the 30 : 1 is correct, it is a conjecture on my part but obviously, the ratio would be more concentrated on day 2 and then on day 3, etc. Whether the body has to be in direct contact with the surface I have no idea - it may not, because we have no idea as to how that stain got there - was it a leak, was it direct contact, was it a spill, was it secondary transfer? I just do not have that information.

I'm making an educated guess that the body was probably wrapped in a blanket or towel, the towel or blanket was in direct contact with the trunk floor and fluids leaked through to the carpet - because of compression, the fluids were pushed through the carpet to the trunk liner where they continued to decay causing the odour to grow stronger over time. In those fluids, the concentration of calcium to magnesium was such that they were able to determine that the body, not the fluids produced by the body, but the body itself was in the car for approx. 2.6 days.

Again, whether or not temp actually does have an effect on the calcium : magnesium, I don't know, I would think that it would because temp affects all aspects of decomp. I was conjecturing that if temp did affect it, then the temp cited by the report was off by around 3 degrees.

Another thought - what would be the point of removing the body after 2.6 days, putting it someplace and then putting it back in the trunk? Anyone is going to want to get rid of the body as quickly as possible. We're overthinking this, in my opinion - we're not talking about a complicated person here, we're talking about someone whose sole concern is for herself. Also, getting rid of a body is not really a mind bender in Florida - gators, woods, waterways and lakes - it takes one minute to walk from the car into the woods, drop a body and walk out. No one is going to want to linger and run the risk of getting caught unless it is someone who has a fetish or a wish to get caught.
Your very detailed explanation is much appreciated. Even though the 2.6 days was reported, I had thought it could be the minimum time her body had been in the trunk. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but this means her body was in the trunk for no more than 2.6 days? That would mean if Caylee died on 6/16, then either Casey had her some place else and moved her at a later date, or she would've disposed of her by 6/19? And yet the car still reeked on 7/15 when George picked it up from the tow yard? I do realize it had been sealed for over two weeks, but I always thought the body was removed closer to the time that Casey abandoned the car on the 27th. Sorry, but I'm still somewhat confused. :confused:

Bev
11-11-2008, 05:26 PM
The car still reeked because the odour was coming from beneath the carpet, not the body. The stain leaked from the carpet fibers into the backing and then on to the trunk liner. Think of it this way - a kiddie pees in his bed and his mom changes the sheet but not the mattress pad - it will still stink of pee because it has soaked in the pad too.

JWG
11-11-2008, 05:28 PM
As I understand the chemistry, the 5:1 ratio occurs after 90 ADD of decomposition - regardless of whether it is in a trunk or outside under a tree.

If the body had been outside for 90 ADD then placed in the trunk, and fluids or other material from the body leaked onto the carpet, the 5:1 ratio would have been left behind. The same is true if the body had been in the trunk the entire 90 ADD.

All we can be sure of is that after 90 ADD the body leaked in the trunk. It could have been in there longer, but if it had been, it did not leak again. LP's theory that it leaked after having been in the trunk 10 days is incorrect, unless it leaked outside the trunk.

Bev
11-11-2008, 05:30 PM
JWG, hit the edit button! (after 90 ADD the body leaked in the trunk...)

panthera
11-11-2008, 05:37 PM
The car still reeked because the odour was coming from beneath the carpet, not the body. The stain leaked from the carpet fibers into the backing and then on to the trunk liner. Think of it this way - a kiddie pees in his bed and his mom changes the sheet but not the mattress pad - it will still stink of pee because it has soaked in the pad too.
OK, I'm catching on now. Only this smell would be much worse than in your example, correct? And with the car being sealed in the hot sun, and no ventilation, it would engulf the entire car even though it originates in the trunk, correct? Not to be o/t, but the only experience I have with something along these lines is a business I worked in where a rat had gotten under an enclosed sink in the break-room (through an unfinished wall behind the sink), and died. It smelled up the entire area because no one knew it was in there for a while.

SailorMoon
11-11-2008, 05:38 PM
I've been meaning to ask this question: why would human decomp smell any different than the decomp of an animal of similar size? Specifically, a "mammal" of similar size to humans? We are mammals too, so I don't quite see why human decomp smell would differ particularly from that of another mammal.

***Would Really Like An Answer if Anyone Knows*** :)


I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.

panthera
11-11-2008, 05:40 PM
As I understand the chemistry, the 5:1 ratio occurs after 90 ADD of decomposition - regardless of whether it is in a trunk or outside under a tree.

If the body had been outside for 90 ADD then placed in the trunk, and fluids or other material from the body leaked onto the carpet, the 5:1 ratio would have been left behind. The same is true if the body had been in the trunk the entire 90 ADD.

All we can be sure of is that after 90 ADD of decomposition the body leaked in the trunk. It could have been in there longer, but if it had been, it did not leak again. LP's theory that it leaked after having been in the trunk 10 days is incorrect, unless it leaked outside the trunk.
Given the ambient temperature and Caylee's size, how long would it have taken for her body's fluids to dry up, or would that depend what she was in, such as a garbage bag as opposed to a blanket or canvas bag?

panthera
11-11-2008, 05:41 PM
I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.
I would too! In other words why would a 35 lb. dog smell different than a 35 lb. Caylee?

JWG
11-11-2008, 05:41 PM
I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.

Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.

panthera
11-11-2008, 05:42 PM
Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.
Thank you! :)

BondJamesBond
11-11-2008, 06:18 PM
Thanks, Bev/JWG. Tells me what I needed to know. Appreciate your patience!

Advocate4
11-11-2008, 07:30 PM
Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.


Hmmm ... well, I have never smelled a dead human (other than very recently dead), but I have smelled a lot (a LOT) of dead animals in various stages of decomp, and frankly they all smelled basically the same other than the larger ones smelled MORE than the small ones. Not to be gross about it, but "meat" is "meat", isn't it? There might possibly be some difference between animals that only eat vegetable matter and those that eat meat (as well as veg matter), but can't say my nose has differentiated.

Not trying to argue, just really not so sure about humans smelling differently. At least, to our own noses -- I do believe that cadaver dogs can smell a difference.

Eulalie
11-11-2008, 08:49 PM
Hmmm ... well, I have never smelled a dead human (other than very recently dead), but I have smelled a lot (a LOT) of dead animals in various stages of decomp, and frankly they all smelled basically the same other than the larger ones smelled MORE than the small ones. Not to be gross about it, but "meat" is "meat", isn't it? There might possibly be some difference between animals that only eat vegetable matter and those that eat meat (as well as veg matter), but can't say my nose has differentiated.

Not trying to argue, just really not so sure about humans smelling differently. At least, to our own noses -- I do believe that cadaver dogs can smell a difference.

I'm not an expert, but I would guess that we're built to abhor the smell of decomp because in nature it's a warning that conditions may be dangerous. If that's true, it makes sense to me that human remains would smell distinct and especially foul to other humans (i.e., it's an urgent warning that something in the area is unsafe).

kgeaux
11-12-2008, 03:28 PM
Our chemistry is different. A dead squirrel smells different than a dead woodchuck. They both smell awful, but different.

I believe you, I'm not questioning you. But when I smell a dead animal, I can't tell if it's a squirrel, cat, dog or rat. They all smell pretty much the same to me: HORRIBLE!! Do you think most people would be able to tell the difference between the smells of a dead squirrel and a dead chipmonk? I know everyone who has smelled human decomp. says it's totally different, forever recognizable. I've been to a funeral where the body was held for weeks and weeks and hadn't been prepared properly----there was a definite odor.....but I'm not sure I would recognize it again. (I do have an extremely unreliable sense of smell!)

magic-cat
11-13-2008, 03:35 AM
Hmmm ... well, I have never smelled a dead human (other than very recently dead), but I have smelled a lot (a LOT) of dead animals in various stages of decomp, and frankly they all smelled basically the same other than the larger ones smelled MORE than the small ones. Not to be gross about it, but "meat" is "meat", isn't it? There might possibly be some difference between animals that only eat vegetable matter and those that eat meat (as well as veg matter), but can't say my nose has differentiated.

Not trying to argue, just really not so sure about humans smelling differently. At least, to our own noses -- I do believe that cadaver dogs can smell a difference.

Read this thread and you may change your mind...:rolleyes: Even my 17 year old, who smelled dead human cadavers in a lab at a college said the scent was unmistakable for anything else. She said it even overpowered the chemicals preserving the cadavers. Many here who have smelled it have verified and substantiated THIS fact very well.:)

magic-cat
11-13-2008, 03:38 AM
The car was locked? Where did I hear that Casey had left her purse sitting on the seat and the car was unlocked (i.e. the theory that she was tempting someone to steal the car)? Anyone remember where that info came from?

The "purse" was not her REAL purse that had her wallet etc in it, it was more of a here are a few odds and ends cosmetics items that I can live without and am going to leave here. The car was locked up tight, so there was no way anyone was going to steal it unless they broke the window-which very well may have been the motivation to leave A purse in plain sight.

magic-cat
11-13-2008, 03:51 AM
I've asked this and would like to know as well. Thanks.

It would smell different for the same reason that various meats taste different-because they are different. Chicken and steak do not smell the same when cooking, and neither do they when rotting. I have a super-sniffer, and can smell even the faintest of odors (almost like a darn dog! lol) and I detect differences in the smells of meat all the time. I cook often as well, as I have a large famikly and will admit we do not always get our supper dishes done until the next day. I can smell the difference of what is on the dishes.

magic-cat
11-13-2008, 03:54 AM
I would too! In other words why would a 35 lb. dog smell different than a 35 lb. Caylee?

Because we ARE different. A dead dog smells like a dead dog and a dead human, from what I can determine, smells like a dead human, or as my daughter keeps correcting me, a cadaver-she says they are no longer humans but have transformed into cadavers, which is what we as humans become at death. She says it is life that makes us human and it is death that makes us cadavers.

chesterp
11-13-2008, 08:25 AM
Because we ARE different. A dead dog smells like a dead dog and a dead human, from what I can determine, smells like a dead human, or as my daughter keeps correcting me, a cadaver-she says they are no longer humans but have transformed into cadavers, which is what we as humans become at death. She says it is life that makes us human and it is death that makes us cadavers.

When we were searching Monday........
We got a whiff of decomposition...............
I was not close to what was found..................
I do not know what is was, but I can tell you I gag and had to run up to the street because the smell was so bad.....................I was not the only searcher who did this. I do not care if it was animal or human I will never forget that smell or feeling of gagging.

Pink Panther
11-13-2008, 08:32 AM
When we were searching Monday........
We got a whiff of decomposition...............
I was not close to what was found..................
I do not know what is was, but I can tell you I gag and had to run up to the street because the smell was so bad.....................I was not the only searcher who did this. I do not care if it was animal or human I will never forget that smell or feeling of gagging.
Sounds horrible! Thank you for your courage to search chesterp. Did you ever find out anything about the find? What it was? Were you searching around Sunderson?

chesterp
11-13-2008, 08:48 AM
Sounds horrible! Thank you for your courage to search chesterp. Did you ever find out anything about the find? What it was? Were you searching around Sunderson?

I do not know where I was except under 417. I am not from Orlando so the street names do not mean a thing to me. I do not think we will ever find out what it was unless it is something significant from the MEDIA. All I know is the person who found it had to sign a slip with his info and it was bagged and tagged. I am quite sure it was not Caylee......... but I do not know what it was.

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 10:23 AM
I do not know where I was except under 417. I am not from Orlando so the street names do not mean a thing to me. I do not think we will ever find out what it was unless it is something significant from the MEDIA. All I know is the person who found it had to sign a slip with his info and it was bagged and tagged. I am quite sure it was not Caylee......... but I do not know what it was.


You wrote, "under 417". Unless I missed it earlier, are you suggesting this was underneath an overpass?

I'd like to post a couple of overpasses and see if they look familiar....coming.

chesterp
11-13-2008, 10:44 AM
You wrote, "under 417". Unless I missed it earlier, are you suggesting this was underneath an overpass?

I'd like to post a couple of overpasses and see if they look familiar....coming.

I would not recognize anything the find was not under the Overpass we were in the woods about 25ft....and when the smell was released we ran over to the overpass. I wish I knew where I was I think it was between a ravine and I did see Curry Ford Rd (I think) when we let if that makes any sense.

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 10:49 AM
I would not recognize anything the find was not under the Overpass we were in the woods about 25ft....and when the smell was released we ran over to the overpass. I wish I knew where I was I think it was between a ravine and I did see Curry Ford Rd (I think) when we let if that makes any sense.

OK...if you can hang justamin I'd like to post a few images to see if they look familiar...OK?

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 10:54 AM
To narrow it down just a little. Do you remember being near some large power line towers?

Loading to Photobucket now...justanother min...

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 11:06 AM
Anything remotely familiar in any of these?

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-3.jpg

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide2-1.jpg

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-4.jpg

chesterp
11-13-2008, 11:11 AM
Anything remotely familiar in any of these?

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-3.jpg

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide2-1.jpg

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-4.jpg

2nd one.............definetly.........between the house and I am not sure where the ravine is.................

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 11:13 AM
2nd one.............definetly.........between the house and I am not sure where the ravine is.................

ok...I'll give you a bit wider of an angle...hang a sec...

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 11:18 AM
Here's a view looking East now with the overpass in the very lower right-hand corner...see any landmarks?

If by "ravine" you mean drainage ditch...the second image below shows the drainage ditch just to the left running towards 417. There is a patch in the middle of both of these images where there is a bit of clearing to give you a common reference point. The second image is just to the north of the first image along 417 @ Sunderson Street.

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-5.jpg

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-6.jpg

Celt1997
11-13-2008, 11:27 AM
Here's a view looking East now with the overpass in the very lower right-hand corner...see any landmarks?

If by "ravine" you mean drainage ditch...the second image below shows the drainage ditch just to the left running towards 417. There is a patch in the middle of both of these images where there is a bit of clearing to give you a common reference point. The second image is just to the north of the first image along 417 @ Sunderson Street.


Bolded by me.

Isn't Sunderson Street where the news reported them finding something, along with a very bad smell? I think, in the end, it was cleared as animal remains found.

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 11:29 AM
Bolded by me.

Isn't Sunderson Street where the news reported them finding something, along with a very bad smell? I think, in the end, it was cleared as animal remains found.

That's correct. That's how it was eventually reported.

IIRC, it was initially reported as some bags of trash found in a hole created by some trees (presumably roots) that when moved a decomp odor was reported. TES made a strange initial comment about how many times they are looking for one persons remains and find another (posted on another thread). Miller was dispatched to the site. Later it was announced to be animal remains.

chesterp
11-13-2008, 11:32 AM
Here's a view looking East now with the overpass in the very lower right-hand corner...see any landmarks?

If by "ravine" you mean drainage ditch...the second image below shows the drainage ditch just to the left running towards 417. There is a patch in the middle of both of these images where there is a bit of clearing to give you a common reference point. The second image is just to the north of the first image along 417 @ Sunderson Street.

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-5.jpg

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq95/BondJamesBondWS/Slide1-6.jpg

I guess that could be the ravine...
I only heard someone say they started at the ravine....
I could not tell where the find was if it was anything.....
All I know is the smell was horrible...............
I wish I was able to help more..............
Sorry....................

BondJamesBond
11-13-2008, 11:38 AM
I guess that could be the ravine...
I only heard someone say they started at the ravine....
I could not tell where the find was if it was anything.....
All I know is the smell was horrible...............
I wish I was able to help more..............
Sorry....................

No apologies necessary! Thanks for making the personal sacrifice to go out & search!

Sounds like a group was maybe working their way south from the ravine while you were working north toward the ravine? You don't know how far away you were from the find (e.g. 50 yards, 100 yards)? Didn't hear any description of the bags that were found (e.g. color of the bags, how many)?

Thanks again for entertaining the questions.

chesterp
11-13-2008, 11:41 AM
No apologies necessary! Thanks for making the personal sacrifice to go out & search!

Sounds like a group was maybe working their way south from the ravine while you were working north toward the ravine? You don't know how far away you were from the find (e.g. 50 yards, 100 yards)? Didn't hear any description of the bags that were found (e.g. color of the bags, how many)?

Thanks again for entertaining the questions.

No, I did not hear anything.............
I just smelled it and a lot of us ran towards the overpass to get fresh air out of the woods because the smell was horrible................ animal/body/whatever I have never smelled anything so strong from so far...

magic-cat
11-23-2008, 01:18 AM
If there was any question about the confusion of smelling an animal and a human decomposing, I believe George himself cleared it up in the interviews done with the FBI. He notes that once you smell it, you never forget it, and he also notes that as he was getting ready to open the trunk of the Pontiac he prayed that it was not Caylee or Casey inside. He knows that smell and he knows what that smell means. He admits it outright. There is no confusion in his statement on THIS subject, except he tells the agent that he HAS to continue to believe that Caylee is alive to preserve his sanity...Not because he actually BELIEVES she is alive, but because that is the lie he MUST tell himself to keep from losing his mind, and to protect his wife and his son's sanity as well...

JBean
07-07-2009, 08:00 PM
bumpity bump

Searchfortruth
07-08-2009, 12:11 AM
One of my dear friends is a police officer, and he says he uses Vicks for very bad cases, cases in which there is extensive decomp: in the normal case, he says the nose becomes overwhelmed with the smell very quickly, and within a couple of minutes, you aren't aware of the smell anymore.

With extensive decomp, he says the smell overwhelms even the Vicks and gets into your clothes and hair: he leaves autopsies to go home and shower and change. He has thrown away clothes he was wearing during an autopsy on a body that had been in the water for a while..... I would be surprised, come trial time, if we don't hear from one friend atleast that a bad smell was noticed, on Casey's clothes. It would be hard for her to move the body, ride in that car and not have clothes that smelled like decomposition. In the interviews with Tony, I don't remember LE asking him if he smelled anything unusual. This would be one of those questions, I would think, they would have certainly asked. The absence of the question leads me to believe it's in an interview we haven't seen yet.

Mystic
07-08-2009, 07:19 AM
I would be surprised, come trial time, if we don't hear from one friend atleast that a bad smell was noticed, on Casey's clothes. It would be hard for her to move the body, ride in that car and not have clothes that smelled like decomposition. In the interviews with Tony, I don't remember LE asking him if he smelled anything unusual. This would be one of those questions, I would think, they would have certainly asked. The absence of the question leads me to believe it's in an interview we haven't seen yet.

In one of the interviews with TL, he mentions a black top/dress (?) and it seems as if he's trying to recall some outfit that KC was planning to wear that she later did not. As LE was on another line of questioning at the time or for whatever reason the topic didn't go any further. I wonder if there was a certain outfit that she got ready to go out with TL and ended up having to dispose of because she dumped Caylee on her way to TL's. Does anyone know if there was any further info about TL's recollection?

Searchfortruth
07-08-2009, 06:01 PM
In one of the interviews with TL, he mentions a black top/dress (?) and it seems as if he's trying to recall some outfit that KC was planning to wear that she later did not. As LE was on another line of questioning at the time or for whatever reason the topic didn't go any further. I wonder if there was a certain outfit that she got ready to go out with TL and ended up having to dispose of because she dumped Caylee on her way to TL's. Does anyone know if there was any further info about TL's recollection?I looked through the interviews and didn't find any conversation where Tony goes further into the clothes Casey was wearing or had (black dress). I really believe there has to be more questions that were asked of Tony and either it's in something not yet released or was not part of the taped interviews.

april_showers
07-08-2009, 07:08 PM
I've personally never smelled decomp, but I can imagine how a smell like that would haunt someone forever. I can also imagine how one's mind can play tricks, and how hard it is to rid your recollection of some odors.

Years ago, I had a roommate with a cat that used to mark everything in the house. Even now, every once in awhile, I'll put on a shirt and think I smell cat urine. Even though my clothes haven't been around an animal in ages, and its obviously my mind playing tricks on me, I'll end up changing. It's weird how your mind does that... and I can't imagine what it would be like with something as horrific as human decomposition.

I like to imagine that KC started to smell that smell everywhere... especially since so much residue was left behind. I like to picture her frantically sniffing everything before wearing it ("oh no! Does my cute new black dress smell like it too now??"/ "ugh. I can't tell if these shoes smell or not!!"/ "oh no, not my favorite purse too!!"). However faint, I bet she started to pick up that odor on things all the time. And she can't exactly hand a pair of pants to Amy or someone and ask if they smell weird. I like to think of how much panic that was causing. KC - completely fueled by her own vanity - would absolutely die if she showed up at TL's and someone pointed out a horrible smell. I wonder how many clothes/belongings she ended up getting rid of because of that...

autumnlover
07-08-2009, 07:59 PM
I think that this is part of the evidence the SA is not releasing because of the Sunshine Law's limitation that evidence that prevent the defendant from getting a fair trial can't be released. I think there this is no way that KC and/or her clothes didn't smell from decomp. She had to. There is every reason to believe, from GA, LA and even CA that the smell was overpowering enough to "smell like there's a dead body" in the car. IMHO, this is very strong evidence and would therefore not be released to the general public before the trial.

AZlawyer
07-08-2009, 08:04 PM
I think that this is part of the evidence the SA is not releasing because of the Sunshine Law's limitation that evidence that prevent the defendant from getting a fair trial can't be released. I think there this is no way that KC and/or her clothes didn't smell from decomp. She had to. There is every reason to believe, from GA, LA and even CA that the smell was overpowering enough to "smell like there's a dead body" in the car. IMHO, this is very strong evidence and would therefore not be released to the general public before the trial.

The information would have to be released to the defense, though, and if the defense didn't want it released to the general public, the defense would have to file a motion, which would show up in the docket. I haven't seen any such motion (or any order from the court), except regarding the jail video.

MAMABEAR
07-08-2009, 08:51 PM
The information would have to be released to the defense, though, and if the defense didn't want it released to the general public, the defense would have to file a motion, which would show up in the docket. I haven't seen any such motion (or any order from the court), except regarding the jail video.

But---how long before trial does the state have to turn evi. over to defense? Can't they keep certain stuff back til say 1-2-3 mo before trial? What if the witness is ask on the stand? Does the state have to tell defense what questions they may ask at trial?

Brini
07-08-2009, 09:46 PM
I've personally never smelled decomp, but I can imagine how a smell like that would haunt someone forever. I can also imagine how one's mind can play tricks, and how hard it is to rid your recollection of some odors.

Years ago, I had a roommate with a cat that used to mark everything in the house. Even now, every once in awhile, I'll put on a shirt and think I smell cat urine. Even though my clothes haven't been around an animal in ages, and its obviously my mind playing tricks on me, I'll end up changing. It's weird how your mind does that... and I can't imagine what it would be like with something as horrific as human decomposition.

I like to imagine that KC started to smell that smell everywhere... especially since so much residue was left behind. I like to picture her frantically sniffing everything before wearing it ("oh no! Does my cute new black dress smell like it too now??"/ "ugh. I can't tell if these shoes smell or not!!"/ "oh no, not my favorite purse too!!"). However faint, I bet she started to pick up that odor on things all the time. And she can't exactly hand a pair of pants to Amy or someone and ask if they smell weird. I like to think of how much panic that was causing. KC - completely fueled by her own vanity - would absolutely die if she showed up at TL's and someone pointed out a horrible smell. I wonder how many clothes/belongings she ended up getting rid of because of that...

Sociopaths don't feel guilt. So, they don't get haunted, like that.

I also, BTW, imagine that her HAIR soaked up some of that smell.

Just Jayla
07-08-2009, 09:51 PM
I think that this is part of the evidence the SA is not releasing because of the Sunshine Law's limitation that evidence that prevent the defendant from getting a fair trial can't be released. I think there this is no way that KC and/or her clothes didn't smell from decomp. She had to. There is every reason to believe, from GA, LA and even CA that the smell was overpowering enough to "smell like there's a dead body" in the car. IMHO, this is very strong evidence and would therefore not be released to the general public before the trial.

In turn, is the absence of a smell something the defense can go on, in conjunction with a "she could not have done it/someone with access to her car (JG) planted the body later" theory? TL did not notice the smell when putting gas in the car, or on her clothes that we know of.

I watched a video excerpt from Dr. G's show where she was saying that their clothes smelled horrible when they left work. I wonder if this is true of everyone in the air vicinity of the body, or only those who have handled the bodies....

april_showers
07-08-2009, 09:52 PM
Sociopaths don't feel guilt. So, they don't get haunted, like that.

I also, BTW, imagine that her HAIR soaked up some of that smell.



I don't think she was haunted by guilt... more like by the fear of being the gross smelly girl :)

Good point on the hair! I wonder how many washings it would take to get rid of that? It can take a few washings just to get cigarette smoke out of my hair... Good reason for her emergency shower at Jesse's perhaps?

AZlawyer
07-09-2009, 12:00 AM
But---how long before trial does the state have to turn evi. over to defense? Can't they keep certain stuff back til say 1-2-3 mo before trial? What if the witness is ask on the stand? Does the state have to tell defense what questions they may ask at trial?

The practical answer is that the State (and the judge) have to make sure everything is turned over to the defense in plenty of time for the defense to figure out how to deal with it. The State might be able to get away with turning over some minor things, preferably with a good excuse for the delay, a month before the trial, but a major piece of evidence turned over that late, with no good reason for the delay, would either not be permitted at trial or would result in another trial postponement.

No one has to tell anyone what specific questions they will ask the witnesses at trial.

ExpectingUnicorns
07-09-2009, 12:56 AM
How many "smellers" do we feel we have to have to put into evidence that Casey's car reeked of human decomposition? So far we have George, Cindy (at first blush before cover up set in with the pizza), Lee, the owner of the tow yard and several LE personnel. And then we have Casey, herself, feeling an overwhelming need to justify what had been causing the offensive odor (poor squirrel). Many of these people (including George and Cindy) are not first time "smellers" so their testimony should be weighty. And if that's not enough we have the super new sniff analyzer that the forensic people have used . . . Why should we or the jury worry about whether or not anyone smelled it on Casey? We have enough proof with all the other peoples' statements that it was there. It only follows logic that Casey was driving that stinky car (and we have never, never heard that anyone else ever drove it) and she probably at one point carried a bit of the odor with her as well. If she happened to luck out that no one noticed it on her then all that proves is that she had good timing and took lots of showers. I don't think it would add any more proof to the state's case if anyone testified that she did carry the smell. She would have claimed that it came from the squirrel anyway. I don't think we have to worry about proving anything more, do you? moo

mom2chloe
07-09-2009, 08:54 AM
In one of the interviews with TL, he mentions a black top/dress (?) and it seems as if he's trying to recall some outfit that KC was planning to wear that she later did not. As LE was on another line of questioning at the time or for whatever reason the topic didn't go any further. I wonder if there was a certain outfit that she got ready to go out with TL and ended up having to dispose of because she dumped Caylee on her way to TL's. Does anyone know if there was any further info about TL's recollection?
Don't know if this answers your question, but a few weeks ago when rereading the Nate interview, I came across some information that was new to me and I am carrying this over from my post on the June 20 ping thread, From Nate's interview with LE,
"So she changed. At that point she had like a skirt in her car or something. So she changed into that blue outfit at that point. Based at the realization that hey, I’m about to get on stage and do some dancing she did proceed to pound some shots and some drinks before she got up on stage to I think."
So June 20, the night of the hot body contest, KC goes out to her car to change from one outfit into the infamous blue dress. Maybe she just wanted to feel sexier for the hot body contest or maybe she couldn't feel too sexy in clothes that might have reeked of decomp. Just a thought...:eek:

Tracey276
07-09-2009, 09:49 AM
I think that this is part of the evidence the SA is not releasing because of the Sunshine Law's limitation that evidence that prevent the defendant from getting a fair trial can't be released. I think there this is no way that KC and/or her clothes didn't smell from decomp. She had to. There is every reason to believe, from GA, LA and even CA that the smell was overpowering enough to "smell like there's a dead body" in the car. IMHO, this is very strong evidence and would therefore not be released to the general public before the trial.

Here is a very informative article on the exceptions to the "sunshine laws". After reading this, I am almost certain there is a lot more evidence that we have not seen yet and won't until trial.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-21/the-evidence-yoursquore-not-allowed-to-see/


The Evidence You’re Not Allowed to See

by Wendy Murphy



BS Top - Murphy Caylee Anthony AP Photo Because of Florida’s ironically named “Sunshine Law,” we may not get to see the very evidence that could convict Casey Anthony of murdering her daughter.

A Florida judge released the autopsy of murder victim Caylee Anthony on Friday. Her grandparents, George and Cindy, had asked the judge not to release the report until trial, claiming it would cause the family "great anguish." (I'm wondering why they didn't max out on anguish when they learned the child was dead.) Maybe the "anguish" claim is cover for a different strategy: keeping the autopsy from the public so the Anthonys could continue their charade of stories about how a mystery "nanny" person kidnapped the child. Now that the autopsy has been released, we can finally be certain the "missing child" nonsense was a distraction.

Reading news stories about the evidence through the lens of the law's exceptions, with a particular understanding of how the law hides information, offers a much clearer view of the case.

Here's why. See more at link above.

Brini
07-09-2009, 11:41 AM
In turn, is the absence of a smell something the defense can go on, in conjunction with a "she could not have done it/someone with access to her car (JG) planted the body later" theory? TL did not notice the smell when putting gas in the car, or on her clothes that we know of.

I watched a video excerpt from Dr. G's show where she was saying that their clothes smelled horrible when they left work. I wonder if this is true of everyone in the air vicinity of the body, or only those who have handled the bodies....

I thought TL said she didn't let allow him close to the car?

Brini
07-09-2009, 11:44 AM
How many "smellers" do we feel we have to have to put into evidence that Casey's car reeked of human decomposition? So far we have George, Cindy (at first blush before cover up set in with the pizza), Lee, the owner of the tow yard and several LE personnel. And then we have Casey, herself, feeling an overwhelming need to justify what had been causing the offensive odor (poor squirrel). Many of these people (including George and Cindy) are not first time "smellers" so their testimony should be weighty. And if that's not enough we have the super new sniff analyzer that the forensic people have used . . . Why should we or the jury worry about whether or not anyone smelled it on Casey? We have enough proof with all the other peoples' statements that it was there. It only follows logic that Casey was driving that stinky car (and we have never, never heard that anyone else ever drove it) and she probably at one point carried a bit of the odor with her as well. If she happened to luck out that no one noticed it on her then all that proves is that she had good timing and took lots of showers. I don't think it would add any more proof to the state's case if anyone testified that she did carry the smell. She would have claimed that it came from the squirrel anyway. I don't think we have to worry about proving anything more, do you? moo

POTD!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::cl ap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

magic-cat
07-09-2009, 12:33 PM
I looked through the interviews and didn't find any conversation where Tony goes further into the clothes Casey was wearing or had (black dress). I really believe there has to be more questions that were asked of Tony and either it's in something not yet released or was not part of the taped interviews.
I do not have the link, but there was a "undiscovered" interview that JWG started a thread about a while back and in that interview Tony was discussing the black dress. He saw photos that were released on Fox and he recognized or said he "KNEW" that dress. That was what all the black dress discussion stemmed from.:)


In turn, is the absence of a smell something the defense can go on, in conjunction with a "she could not have done it/someone with access to her car (JG) planted the body later" theory? TL did not notice the smell when putting gas in the car, or on her clothes that we know of.

I watched a video excerpt from Dr. G's show where she was saying that their clothes smelled horrible when they left work. I wonder if this is true of everyone in the air vicinity of the body, or only those who have handled the bodies....
Tony did not actually put the gas in her car. He states that she was adamant that SHE be the one to actually do the filling with the cans. He handed her the cans but she did the pouring.

I thought TL said she didn't let allow him close to the car?
Right you are Brini...right you are!:blowkiss:

BionicSurfer
07-09-2009, 12:33 PM
My company makes decomp a scent. I don't know if we make anything except the human variety.(I'm sure I could find this out)
Anyway, the computer systems in the areas where this happens have to be installed in a "box" filled with nitrogen. They attempt to keep the smell from entering the computer equipment. If something breaks, it can't be shipped for repairs or replacement if the nitrogen system fails. The shipper and manufacture have refused the equipment due to the smell contamination of nearby items. Don't know that I blame them, since we use commmon delivery companies gramdma's cookies or johnny's b-day present would.arrive smelling like death.
If anyone has specific scent questions I will try to locate the scientist that developed this project(if they still work here---stupid economy!) These guys are 99.9 percent of the time Phd chemists and LOVE any interest. Nice lunchtime talk! (Says with a krinkley nose face)

magic-cat
07-09-2009, 12:36 PM
My company makes decomp a scent. I don't know if we make anything except the human variety.(I'm sure I could find this out)
Anyway, the computer systems in the areas where this happens have to be installed in a "box" filled with nitrogen. They attempt to keep the smell from entering the computer equipment. If something breaks, it can't be shipped for repairs or replacement if the nitrogen system fails. The shipper and manufacture have refused the equipment due to the smell contamination of nearby items. Don't know that I blame them, since we use commmon delivery companies gramdma's cookies or johnny's b-day present would.arrive smelling like death.
If anyone has specific scent questions I will try to locate the scientist that developed this project(if they still work here---stupid economy!) These guys are 99.9 percent of the time Phd chemists and LOVE any interest. Nice lunchtime talk! (Says with a krinkley nose face)
Hi! When you say your company makes "decomp a scent" do you mean they make something that someone would buy that smells like human decomposition? What would be the uses of that? I mean, where/how do you distribute that?

Tuffy
07-09-2009, 01:05 PM
Hi! When you say your company makes "decomp a scent" do you mean they make something that someone would buy that smells like human decomposition? What would be the uses of that? I mean, where/how do you distribute that?

Synthetic decomp scent is used to train cadaver dogs. I don't know what the other uses for it would be.

doogiesgirl
07-09-2009, 01:06 PM
I've personally never smelled decomp, but I can imagine how a smell like that would haunt someone forever. I can also imagine how one's mind can play tricks, and how hard it is to rid your recollection of some odors.

Years ago, I had a roommate with a cat that used to mark everything in the house. Even now, every once in awhile, I'll put on a shirt and think I smell cat urine. Even though my clothes haven't been around an animal in ages, and its obviously my mind playing tricks on me, I'll end up changing. It's weird how your mind does that... and I can't imagine what it would be like with something as horrific as human decomposition.

I like to imagine that KC started to smell that smell everywhere... especially since so much residue was left behind. I like to picture her frantically sniffing everything before wearing it ("oh no! Does my cute new black dress smell like it too now??"/ "ugh. I can't tell if these shoes smell or not!!"/ "oh no, not my favorite purse too!!"). However faint, I bet she started to pick up that odor on things all the time. And she can't exactly hand a pair of pants to Amy or someone and ask if they smell weird. I like to think of how much panic that was causing. KC - completely fueled by her own vanity - would absolutely die if she showed up at TL's and someone pointed out a horrible smell. I wonder how many clothes/belongings she ended up getting rid of because of that...


There is obviously so much LE is holding back because I've looked at the pictures from the search warrants and I cannot find any piece of KC's clothing that I recognize from the countless photos she took of herself partying or the surveillance videos from BB or the bank or Target. Where are these clothes? The outfit that drives me the most crazy is the shirts/shorts/shoes/do rag she has on in the BB video from the 16th. Was that what she wore when she murdered Caylee? Is Caylee's body fluids on them? Something would have to be on those clothes/shoes, right? Again, where are these clothes? I pray to God LE has them. JMO

doogiesgirl
07-09-2009, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=magic-cat;3944927]I do not have the link, but there was a "undiscovered" interview that JWG started a thread about a while back and in that interview Tony was discussing the black dress. He saw photos that were released on Fox and he recognized or said he "KNEW" that dress. That was what all the black dress discussion stemmed from.:)


Clipped your post magic-cat----doogiesgirl (above bolded by me)


I remember that interview also. He said that he thought he remembered KC showing him a black dress with silver things on the side of it. She was considering wearing it to Fusion one night but didn't, I think. He said he saw pics that Fox showed on the news of searchers finding clothes somewhere and he thought he saw that dress in one of the pics. We could never find it though could we? We found a black shirt but it didn't have the silver things on the side did it? I think after that interview LE pulled those pics from Fox News. Don't you? I wonder if KC got rid of those clothes b/c they smelled of decomp? JMO