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Nicole_LongIsland
07-30-2008, 03:31 PM
Compulsive Lying - Pseudologia Fantastica

The defining characteristics of pseudologia fantastica are that, first, the stories are not entirely improbable and often have some element of truth. They aren't a manifestation of delusion or some more wider form of psychosis: upon confrontation, the person can acknowledge them to be untrue, even if unwillingly.

Second, the fabricative tendency is long lasting; it is not provoked by the immediate situation or social pressure as much as it originates with the person's innate urge to act in accordance.

Third, a definitely internal, not an external, motive for the behavior can be clinically discerned. E.g. long lasting extortion or habitual spousal battery might cause a person to lie repeatedly, without the lying being a pathological symptom.

Fourth, the stories told tend towards presenting the person in question in a good light. For example, the person might be presented as being fantastically brave, knowing or being related to many famous people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica

Nicole_LongIsland
07-30-2008, 03:32 PM
Histrionic personality disorder (HPD)
There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

- Is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention - - - Interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
- Displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
-Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self
-Has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
-Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
-Is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances
-Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are.


http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe06.html

Nicole_LongIsland
07-30-2008, 03:33 PM
Borderline Personality Disorder:
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
- frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment;
-a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation;
- identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self;
-impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating);
- recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior;
- affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days);
- chronic feelings of emptiness;
- inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights);
- transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.


http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe05.html

Nicole_LongIsland
07-30-2008, 03:35 PM
Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy (must be 18) followed by five or more of the characteristics below:
- Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates accomplishments, talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);
- Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;
- Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);
- Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation – or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);
- Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favorable priority treatment;
- Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;
- Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or acceptthefeelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others;
- Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly;
- Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.



http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html

OneLostGrl
07-30-2008, 04:11 PM
Thanks for adding this thread as it makes good sense to put possible disorders in one spot rather that scattered throughout all the threads!

DeltaDawn
07-30-2008, 09:31 PM
This young women's drug use has precipitate a bipolar disorder that lay dormant. She also has other psych problems.. as far as authority figures go...but .. for now we need to get Caylee back..then what treatment her Mom recovers is secondary to me.

SieSie
07-30-2008, 10:17 PM
Great information, Nicole, thanks so much! :clap:

Just curious where you got the information - I originally thought they were links because the title was underlined, but it wasn't a link. :waitasec: Very informative, thanks again!

ketel0ne
07-30-2008, 10:46 PM
According to her atty tonight she has no mental issues at all. Some of her behavior can be attributed to stress. - Micheal Walsh.

OneLostGrl
07-30-2008, 11:03 PM
This young women's drug use has precipitate a bipolar disorder that lay dormant. She also has other psych problems.. as far as authority figures go...but .. for now we need to get Caylee back..then what treatment her Mom recovers is secondary to me.

I was not aware she has an issue with drug use. I really can't see that she does have any major problems with any major drugs- she has been in jail all this time and has not appeared to go through any type of withdrawl. She is not being held in a medical unit or segregation which is what they would do to make sure she stays safe while detoxing. Having seen her in court a couple of times and on video in jail, she does not have the "shakes" or anything else that would go with her being in withdrawl from drugs.

She seems to have tendencies for several different dx's. No doubt she has Bipolar-like behaviors and attitudes but IMO we don't know enough about this woman to know if she has ever had issues with depression OR mania not to mention delusions of grandeur etc etc.

I am not saying a dx of Bipolar is out of the question- I certainly wouldn't be surprised if information came out that shows she indeed has a history of Mania/Depression but IMO she presents more like a person with a personality disorder than with a person with Bipolar.

QuickAttack
07-31-2008, 12:03 AM
By the looks of her myspace posts on other people's blogs, I'd guess bipolar disorder. There seems to be some kind of manic air to her posts...especially those around the time of Caylee's disappearance.

ThoughtFox
07-31-2008, 12:19 AM
Definitely Narcissistic.

And talk about "delusions of grandeur"!!! She wanted to believe that she had a job which she didn't have, to pay for a "nanny" that probably doesn't exist. Now she expects people to believe that her child was kidnapped, but not in the usual way with a ransom note, but in a "special way" that only she and her family can deal with because the cops would bungle it.

So she becomes one of Charlie's Angels and goes out looking for the child herself (allegedly) in her own little super-sleuth daydream, because calling 911 would just be too beneath her.

And where did she get these delusions? Possibly from her own mother, who is now taking calls and following leads on her own. Every time her mom is on TV, she lectures someone about how no one can understand anything except the family.

Borderline, Delusional, Bipolar, Sociopathic - call it what you will. Perhaps all of the above.

Muzikman
07-31-2008, 01:01 AM
Hello all, been reading the forum for the last few days and decided to join up. I live in Orlando, where of course it is the top story of every newscast here, and I have become enthralled with the case. Can't get enough of it! I live near several of the involved locations (Amy/Ricardo condo, old folks home area she took the cops to) and could easily do a little investigation work around them if needed.

This post may belong in the Theories thread instead, but I thought it might also apply in the Diagnosis thread here also, as I agree with the Delusions of Grandeur post by Thoughtfox.

My current opinion is that Casey hid her with someone to keep her from Cindy, possibly as punishment for how Casey was being treated by Cindy (that per Cindy's Myspace blog on July 3, which I'm really surprised none of the news outlets have hit on). I don't think she ever expected it to blow up into the huge national deal it has become, but now that it has she is going to try to take advantage of the situation in order to become a *Celebrity* (In her warped mind at least).

What could now happen is whoever has Caylee may get tired and/or scared becaue of all the press attention and all of a sudden Caylee will be found wandering around a mall or something by herself, and the "Kidnapper" will never be found, resulting in possible vindication of Casey ("See, I wasn't lying!"). Casey will then do her best to turn this into a situation where she becomes a *Celebrity* and tries to make money out of the situation somehow.

She didn't plan the whole thing out this way, but will take advantage of how it has turned out any way that she can.

Of course, there is the decomposition dog hits to contend with, but I am hoping that turns out to be something else and Caylee is OK.

Anyway, great forum and I look forward to being able to contribute in some small way!
Muzikman

OneLostGrl
07-31-2008, 01:16 AM
Hello all, been reading the forum for the last few days and decided to join up. I live in Orlando, where of course it is the top story of every newscast here, and I have become enthralled with the case. Can't get enough of it! I live near several of the involved locations (Amy/Ricardo condo, old folks home area she took the cops to) and could easily do a little investigation work around them if needed.

This post may belong in the Theories thread instead, but I thought it might also apply in the Diagnosis thread here also, as I agree with the Delusions of Grandeur post by Thoughtfox.

My current opinion is that Casey hid her with someone to keep her from Cindy, possibly as punishment for how Casey was being treated by Cindy (that per Cindy's Myspace blog on July 3, which I'm really surprised none of the news outlets have hit on). I don't think she ever expected it to blow up into the huge national deal it has become, but now that it has she is going to try to take advantage of the situation in order to become a *Celebrity* (In her warped mind at least).

What could now happen is whoever has Caylee may get tired and/or scared becaue of all the press attention and all of a sudden Caylee will be found wandering around a mall or something by herself, and the "Kidnapper" will never be found, resulting in possible vindication of Casey ("See, I wasn't lying!"). Casey will then do her best to turn this into a situation where she becomes a *Celebrity* and tries to make money out of the situation somehow.

She didn't plan the whole thing out this way, but will take advantage of how it has turned out any way that she can.

Of course, there is the decomposition dog hits to contend with, but I am hoping that turns out to be something else and Caylee is OK.

Anyway, great forum and I look forward to being able to contribute in some small way!
Muzikman

Welcome to WS :)

Muzikman
07-31-2008, 01:39 AM
I was not aware she has an issue with drug use. I really can't see that she does have any major problems with any major drugs- she has been in jail all this time and has not appeared to go through any type of withdrawl. She is not being held in a medical unit or segregation which is what they would do to make sure she stays safe while detoxing. Having seen her in court a couple of times and on video in jail, she does not have the "shakes" or anything else that would go with her being in withdrawl from drugs.

Thanks for the Welcome OneLostGirl!

I have to disagree with this part of your assesment. You do not really have the withdrawal symptoms from Cocaine as compared to say Heroin or Meth, especially if you haven't been using it that long. Cocaine is expensive and fairly prevalent around Orlando in some circles (such as possibly the rap promoter scene she seems to have gotten involved in with TonE) and would also explain the LARGE amounts of money she quickly ran up on Cindy's CC as well as the theft of money from Amy, needed to support the habit -especially if she was hooking up every one around her (TonE and friends, etc.)

Just another Party Girl trying to look cool to her new circle of friends.

Vegas Bride
07-31-2008, 02:09 AM
I'm inclined to think Casey is not heavily involved with drug, maybe some light usage but not a big druggie. At the jail I work at, it's pretty well known when someone with a drug problem comes in, that's why they end up being in a cell by themselves while they detox. Some will go several days without eating, they have several physical signs of the torment they're going though.
The times I've seen Casey, she looks like it's just another ordinary day for her, no thought of her daughter missing, not missing meals or that she's locked up. To me this all says a deep seated mental defect. When all is told imo we'll hear of many warning signs.

VB

Tricia
07-31-2008, 02:49 AM
Excellent posts Nichole_LongIsland. Thank you very much.

Can you please link where you found this information? Also, due to copyright laws you can't post the whole "article" if you will without permission. Not trying to be a wetblanket here.

If you could edit several lines out of each post and then add the link at the bottom of each post that should do it. Thank you for going to all this work to find the information.

Tricia

Tricia
07-31-2008, 02:51 AM
Hello all, been reading the forum for the last few days and decided to join up. I live in Orlando, where of course it is the top story of every newscast here, and I have become enthralled with the case. Can't get enough of it! I live near several of the involved locations (Amy/Ricardo condo, old folks home area she took the cops to) and could easily do a little investigation work around them if needed.

This post may belong in the Theories thread instead, but I thought it might also apply in the Diagnosis thread here also, as I agree with the Delusions of Grandeur post by Thoughtfox.

My current opinion is that Casey hid her with someone to keep her from Cindy, possibly as punishment for how Casey was being treated by Cindy (that per Cindy's Myspace blog on July 3, which I'm really surprised none of the news outlets have hit on). I don't think she ever expected it to blow up into the huge national deal it has become, but now that it has she is going to try to take advantage of the situation in order to become a *Celebrity* (In her warped mind at least).

What could now happen is whoever has Caylee may get tired and/or scared becaue of all the press attention and all of a sudden Caylee will be found wandering around a mall or something by herself, and the "Kidnapper" will never be found, resulting in possible vindication of Casey ("See, I wasn't lying!"). Casey will then do her best to turn this into a situation where she becomes a *Celebrity* and tries to make money out of the situation somehow.

She didn't plan the whole thing out this way, but will take advantage of how it has turned out any way that she can.

Of course, there is the decomposition dog hits to contend with, but I am hoping that turns out to be something else and Caylee is OK.

Anyway, great forum and I look forward to being able to contribute in some small way!
Muzikman

Welcome Muzikman. It seems you too are now a WS Addict. There is no cure. Just the need for more and more WS :)

I like your theory. I pray that it is true.

Tricia

Muzikman
07-31-2008, 03:32 AM
Thanks Tricia! Great forum you've started here that could do some good in the world. Kudos.

I hope my theory is on target too. I've watched every minute of local and national TV coverage that I can - DVR'ing two channels while watching another, because every TV station here has come out with revelations of their own at times.

I actually caught the whole 3 hour bond hearing live because I was sick in bed that day. Channel 13, the local 24/7 local news/traffic/weather cable station, broadcast it in it's entirety, which is what got me hooked. VERY compelling.

Theory still needs a little fleshing out to be complete, such as: it would also explain why she doesn't seem really concerned about Caylee - because she actually does know where she is and who she's with, she's safe, just being hidden from Grandma for a while. That's why she didn't report it, why she's been out having a good time, but when Grandma finally caught up with her and called 911 - she had to come up with a story quickly.

There are definitely some issues between Cindy and Casey which started this whole mess, and George and Cindy do need to come clean about them.

Nicole_LongIsland
07-31-2008, 06:45 AM
Excellent posts Nichole_LongIsland. Thank you very much.

Can you please link where you found this information? Also, due to copyright laws you can't post the whole "article" if you will without permission. Not trying to be a wetblanket here.

If you could edit several lines out of each post and then add the link at the bottom of each post that should do it. Thank you for going to all this work to find the information.

Tricia

no problem Tricia

becklynn
07-31-2008, 07:11 AM
Well Nicole it is definatelty not this one.

For example, the person might be presented as being fantastically brave, knowing or being related to many famous people.
Pseudologia fantastica is not currently listed as a symptom in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disord ers), nor in the The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICD). Not much has been established about pathological lying, except that it is the mental state of the liar and not the lie that is abnormal.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudologia_fantastica#cite_note-1)
Amongst the psychiatric profession, the condition holds perhaps even legendary value, thanks to Sigmund Freud's treatment of the subject.

But I am amazed at you checking these personalty problem or I guess mental problems. I want to look at the others so do not take offense that I do not agree with the first. I know. I KNOW you are right about her having a problem.

becklynn
07-31-2008, 07:19 AM
Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy (must be 18) followed by five or more of the characteristics below:
- Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates accomplishments, talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);
- Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;
- Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);
- Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);
- Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favorable priority treatment;
- Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;
- Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or acceptthefeelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others;
- Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly;
- Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.



http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html (http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe07.html)

Seen this one before. It is suposed to be rare but we find it often in murderers.
I can see all but one for sure. The next to the last says Constaantly envieous of others and seeks to destroy objects they feel the same about and are to act simialary.
Right off I would say this is Caylee. But I do not know enough about psychiatry to really understand the meaning of this quote. I do know Casey hits on everything else and that is way too many to disregard.
What does the next to the last quote mean?

becklynn
07-31-2008, 07:26 AM
Never mind. I reread it and she definately has all these signs. It is sad because it really does tell us she likely, or in my opinion definately , killed Caylee.
I bet it is really difficult to fit someone in all the symptoms. Casey has all of them. I wonder how many are needed to diangnos. I did see you need 5 to fit the signs. That is why I have wanted to see her mental evaluation. I'd also like to see the woman that stabbed her psychiatrist husband that had the 2 sons. Dang I forget her name. She took on her own defense. I think it would be really rare to be able to see these glowing neon signs she is mentally off. I have to question her parents denial. But I think they have covered for her so long they are just hoping she did not kill her daughter. I think now they are starting to know she did.

becklynn
07-31-2008, 07:41 AM
I am sorry. My posts got screwed up. I tried to reply and it did not work so I sent it again and lost part of my post.
I think the opening post is great. I find the Narcistic personality fits like a shoe. And I am so glad it was posted.

SewingDeb
07-31-2008, 08:26 AM
Casey's new attorney says she does not have any latent mental defects and that she is not psychotic.

Is that some sort of double speak to make it sound like she does not have any current mental problems when she really does? Would he have seen the mental evaluation by now?

becklynn
07-31-2008, 09:18 AM
Casey's new attorney says she does not have any latent mental defects and that she is not psychotic.

Is that some sort of double speak to make it sound like she does not have any current mental problems when she really does? Would he have seen the mental evaluation by now?
He did surprize us by saying she was not mentally ill. Anyone that has kept up with this case knows she is crazy. It is bad for the defense to say she is not insane because they certainly could use this in trial.
On the other hand she is not crazy as in the definition of insanity. She certainly knows right from wrong. She is nuts on the side of being narcisistic and not caring in anyway about her own child. Her attorney would have a hard time pursuing the insanity defense since she is intelligent and seems to be certainly consciouse of time and place. He is getting record attention for this trial and I think he will go all the way out for it. It will make him a valued defense attorney. Even though we can all see Casey will not cooperate and is telling lies.

icherish
07-31-2008, 09:23 AM
Casey's new attorney says she does not have any latent mental defects and that she is not psychotic.

Is that some sort of double speak to make it sound like she does not have any current mental problems when she really does? Would he have seen the mental evaluation by now?


The psych report was turned in to the court, so her lawyers have definitely seen it. Sounds like doublespeak to me. Just by the actions and behaviors we've seen from Casey, it seems fair to say she has some type of personality disorder. But her lawyer is surely not going to be the one to divulge that.

On the other hand, saying what she doesn't have (a psychotic and/or depressive disorder) would serve to minimize her culpabilty or seem less "guilty."

The irony is, having a personality disorder is far worse from a criminal standpoint.

websurfer
07-31-2008, 09:28 AM
Normal people do not do the stuff this Casey has done...
she says she knew the babysitter for what?
1 1/2 -2 years and yet the apartment does not contain any babysitter let alone AFG.
not mental?
oh yes she is and they had better start codling her so she will give the info about Caylee to the public...
oh yes....on one video a person named Patrick Bourgeois ,
well look up on the web that name and get back here with results...
i found a child by that name was murdered by his abusive parents...
the PB who visited Casey says remember/ then says Mike Walker[ is her former classmate & friend] in her alumni page he is listed.
So check that out too her graduating class alumni
see who all is on her list as classmates...interesting.
I could not find a copy of her yearbook to read the captions and all for her or anyone else...
that too would be interessting...

websurfer
07-31-2008, 09:30 AM
Normal people do not do the stuff this Casey has done...
she says she knew the babysitter for what?
1 1/2 -2 years and yet the apartment does not contain any babysitter let alone AFG.
not mental?
oh yes she is and they had better start codling her so she will give the info about Caylee to the public...
oh yes....on one video a person named Patrick Bourgeois ,
well look up on the web that name and get back here with results...
i found a child by that name was murdered by his abusive parents...
the PB who visited Casey says remember/ then says Mike Walker[ is her former classmate & friend] in her alumni page he is listed.
So check that out too her graduating class alumni
see who all is on her list as classmates...interesting.
I could not find a copy of her yearbook to read the captions and all for her or anyone else...
that too would be interessting...



:waitasec:

sorry if this seems rushed...lots of things to say in a small space hope you can understand my point.....

LI_Mom
07-31-2008, 10:38 AM
Normal people do not do the stuff this Casey has done...
she says she knew the babysitter for what?
1 1/2 -2 years and yet the apartment does not contain any babysitter let alone AFG.
not mental?
oh yes she is and they had better start codling her so she will give the info about Caylee to the public...
oh yes....on one video a person named Patrick Bourgeois ,
well look up on the web that name and get back here with results...
i found a child by that name was murdered by his abusive parents...
the PB who visited Casey says remember/ then says Mike Walker[ is her former classmate & friend] in her alumni page he is listed.
So check that out too her graduating class alumni
see who all is on her list as classmates...interesting.
I could not find a copy of her yearbook to read the captions and all for her or anyone else...
that too would be interessting...


Serial killers have done far worse than Casey & THEY'RE almost never deemed "insane."

It's very obvious that she was very, very careful to hide Caylee's disappearance from her family, friends & casual acquaintances. And she was fully aware that her mother wanted to speak to Caylee so it's not as if she can even pretend she completely forgot she was supposed to have a child with her.

SouthernMom
07-31-2008, 11:10 AM
Serial killers have done far worse than Casey & THEY'RE almost never deemed "insane."

It's very obvious that she was very, very careful to hide Caylee's disappearance from her family, friends & casual acquaintances. And she was fully aware that her mother wanted to speak to Caylee so it's not as if she can even pretend she completely forgot she was supposed to have a child with her.

I agree. IIRC some of the more notorious serial killers never even gave friends or family an indication that there was anything wrong.
I think either Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder or some combination of the two.

wallflower67
07-31-2008, 11:22 AM
the spending spree, stealing money, partying non-stop despite her daughter's disappearance, delusions of grandeur all point to a bipolar manic phase (axis 1 diagnosis). I do think she has borderline or narcissistic personalty disorder too (axis 2 diagnosis)

OneLostGrl
07-31-2008, 11:34 AM
Thanks for the Welcome OneLostGirl!

I have to disagree with this part of your assesment. You do not really have the withdrawal symptoms from Cocaine as compared to say Heroin or Meth, especially if you haven't been using it that long. Cocaine is expensive and fairly prevalent around Orlando in some circles (such as possibly the rap promoter scene she seems to have gotten involved in with TonE) and would also explain the LARGE amounts of money she quickly ran up on Cindy's CC as well as the theft of money from Amy, needed to support the habit -especially if she was hooking up every one around her (TonE and friends, etc.)

Just another Party Girl trying to look cool to her new circle of friends.

You have a point! I honestly never give Cocaine much of a thought these days with all the other stuff people are taking that are so much less expensive.

Thanks for pointing this out to me!

OneLostGrl
07-31-2008, 11:45 AM
the spending spree, stealing money, partying non-stop despite her daughter's disappearance, delusions of grandeur all point to a bipolar manic phase (axis 1 diagnosis). I do think she has borderline or narcissistic personalty disorder too (axis 2 diagnosis)

I agree except that what you point out as Bipolar behavior is also Borderline behavior. The two are often misdiagnosed as one-another because many of the symptoms are the same.

OneLostGrl
07-31-2008, 11:49 AM
Normal people do not do the stuff this Casey has done...
she says she knew the babysitter for what?
1 1/2 -2 years and yet the apartment does not contain any babysitter let alone AFG.
not mental?
oh yes she is and they had better start codling her so she will give the info about Caylee to the public...
oh yes....on one video a person named Patrick Bourgeois ,
well look up on the web that name and get back here with results...
i found a child by that name was murdered by his abusive parents...
the PB who visited Casey says remember/ then says Mike Walker[ is her former classmate & friend] in her alumni page he is listed.
So check that out too her graduating class alumni
see who all is on her list as classmates...interesting.
I could not find a copy of her yearbook to read the captions and all for her or anyone else...
that too would be interessting...

Our sleuthers have already looked into the people you named above..

wallflower67
07-31-2008, 12:40 PM
I agree except that what you point out as Bipolar behavior is also Borderline behavior. The two are often misdiagnosed as one-another because many of the symptoms are the same.

Very very true. I work in a hospital with a psych unit. May of these patients have both. Bipolar will respond to meds (providing the patient takes them as directed, which is a problem). Borderline will not.

I'm sure we'll never know unless Casey gets on some kind of mood stabilizer. They will probably start her on a an antidepressant, which many times makes bipolar worse without a mood stabilizer.

My husband's ex has borderline. She's impossible to deal with. Completely manipulative. I hate answering the phone, because I never know whether I'll get a rage call or an "I'm pretending to be nice" call. Her manipulations do remind me of Casey. I never thought she'd hurt the kids, though, and she did. They are okay.

AlwaysShocked
07-31-2008, 01:49 PM
The exam she has just had would have been ordered by the court, correct? To determine whether or not she is capable of assisting in her own defense?

Would this exam have dealt strictly with her ability to assist in her defense - insane vs. sane, as opposed to being a diagnostic exam to attempt to determine what exactly her overall problem(s) is/are?

And then, trying to put a positive spin on it, the lawyer says "She does not have a major mental illness" etc.

OneLostGrl
07-31-2008, 02:20 PM
Very very true. I work in a hospital with a psych unit. May of these patients have both. Bipolar will respond to meds (providing the patient takes them as directed, which is a problem). Borderline will not.

I'm sure we'll never know unless Casey gets on some kind of mood stabilizer. They will probably start her on a an antidepressant, which many times makes bipolar worse without a mood stabilizer.

My husband's ex has borderline. She's impossible to deal with. Completely manipulative. I hate answering the phone, because I never know whether I'll get a rage call or an "I'm pretending to be nice" call. Her manipulations do remind me of Casey. I never thought she'd hurt the kids, though, and she did. They are okay.

I have Bipolar disorder (now "under control" with meds and lifestyle changes) and was raised by a Borderline mother (Gosh, ya wanna talk manipulative LOL)so I understand the medication and behavior issues of which you speak.

I disagree with you, however, that medication will not help a person with Borderline personality. Although there are no meds approved to treat it, it is shown that medication (mood stabalizers and anti-psychotics, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, etc etc) can help alleviate associated symptoms of the disorder.

My mother, for example has been her most stable while on Zyprexa. It takes awayher suicidal ideations.. it lessens her depression, mood swings, anxiety and the impulsive & aggressive behaviors. Of course I do realize that therapy is the most important aspect to successful treatment.

As for your husbands X- she hasn't outright "hurt" her children but she has hurt them, mentally, I assure you! I can't begin to explain the years of work it has taken to begin to un-do what my mother (unknowingly) did to me. She loves me the best she can, (I knew that then I know it now) but she really doesn't know enough about "normal" love to raise healthy children... I think her "splitting" was what harmed me the most because I never could figure out what I had done wrong!

Anyway, let me stop rambling-

back to Casey.. IMO without more information and because of the overlap of symptoms (which makes it hard at times for even professionals to properly diagnose) between Bipolar and BPD it is hard to say what she has. Hell, she could have neither LOL.

curiositycat
07-31-2008, 02:24 PM
the spending spree, stealing money, partying non-stop despite her daughter's disappearance, delusions of grandeur all point to a bipolar manic phase (axis 1 diagnosis). I do think she has borderline or narcissistic personalty disorder too (axis 2 diagnosis)
As a retired licensed psych, I have to agree. But remember when up that high she will have to come down sooner or later. It appears we are seeing some of that also.
Also, if there were any street drugs involved, we could be "off" a bit.

curiositycat
07-31-2008, 02:28 PM
I have Bipolar disorder (now "under control" with meds and lifestyle changes) and was raised by a Borderline mother (Gosh, ya wanna talk manipulative LOL)so I understand the medication and behavior issues of which you speak.

I disagree with you, however, that medication will not help a person with Borderline personality. Although there are no meds approved to treat it, it is shown that medication (mood stabalizers and anti-psychotics, antidepressants, anti-anxiety, etc etc) can help alleviate associated symptoms of the disorder.

My mother, for example has been her most stable while on Zyprexa. It takes awayher suicidal ideations.. it lessens her depression, mood swings, anxiety and the impulsive & aggressive behaviors. Of course I do realize that therapy is the most important aspect to successful treatment.

As for your husbands X- she hasn't outright "hurt" her children but she has hurt them, mentally, I assure you! I can't begin to explain the years of work it has taken to begin to un-do what my mother (unknowingly) did to me. She loves me the best she can, (I knew that then I know it now) but she really doesn't know enough about "normal" love to raise healthy children... I think her "splitting" was what harmed me the most because I never could figure out what I had done wrong!

Anyway, let me stop rambling-

back to Casey.. IMO without more information and because of the overlap of symptoms (which makes it hard at times for even professionals to properly diagnose) between Bipolar and BPD it is hard to say what she has. Hell, she could have neither LOL.
I agree that there is a definite overlap of symptoms in this case. If she was on SSRI's it could have been part of the problem. It's interesting in a lot of the cases where mom murdered their children they were found to be on SSRI antidepressants. Paxil has recently admitted that they have known for a while now just how dangerous Paxil is.

Nicole_LongIsland
07-31-2008, 03:02 PM
Seen this one before. It is suposed to be rare but we find it often in murderers.
I can see all but one for sure. The next to the last says Constaantly envieous of others and seeks to destroy objects they feel the same about and are to act simialary.
Right off I would say this is Caylee. But I do not know enough about psychiatry to really understand the meaning of this quote. I do know Casey hits on everything else and that is way too many to disregard.
What does the next to the last quote mean?

Hi, actually antisocial personality disorder is often found in murders (aka sociopath). Nevertheless, antisocial pd has been coupled with narcissistic pd in several criminal cases.

Here is the criteria for antisocial pd
There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

- failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
- deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
- impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
- irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
- reckless disregard for safety of self or others
- consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
- lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another



http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe04.html

becklynn
07-31-2008, 03:15 PM
Hi, actually antisocial personality disorder is often found in murders (aka sociopath). Nevertheless, antisocial pd has been coupled with narcissistic pd in several criminal cases.

Here is the criteria for antisocial pd
There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

- failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
- deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
- impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
- irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
- reckless disregard for safety of self or others
- consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
- lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another



http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe04.html
I would have to say I could site an instance of Caysee doing everything listed but perhaps the first. And that is just from tv info.

OneLostGrl
07-31-2008, 03:45 PM
I would have to say I could site an instance of Caysee doing everything listed but perhaps the first. And that is just from tv info.

I would have to say that I could site instances of ME doing all of the things listed in this criteria as well but without knowing a persons background (other symptoms, history of abuse, family history etc etc..) one cannot put it into proper perspective.

Mental illness is not simply black or white and just because we see behaviors associated with an illnesses does not mean that one has that illness. Several psychiatric disorders have many of the same issues.

OneLostGrl
07-31-2008, 03:54 PM
I agree that there is a definite overlap of symptoms in this case. If she was on SSRI's it could have been part of the problem. It's interesting in a lot of the cases where mom murdered their children they were found to be on SSRI antidepressants. Paxil has recently admitted that they have known for a while now just how dangerous Paxil is.

I doubt she was on any psych meds.. first of all her lawyers say there is no history (they would be stupid to lie because it will come out if she has been on meds or had been seeing a shrink) and her family seems the type that would be too embarrassed to be even associated with mental illness. Though I don't know this as fact.

I won't even get into my feelings on the drug Paxil other than to say I have known for years that it is not good... I have seen aggressive behaviors and suicidal ideations coming from a person who had never before had them simply from taking Paxil... so I agree with you on that as well!

OneLostGrl
08-08-2008, 03:32 PM
BumP!

softsoul
08-08-2008, 04:12 PM
I would have to say that I could site instances of ME doing all of the things listed in this criteria as well but without knowing a persons background (other symptoms, history of abuse, family history etc etc..) one cannot put it into proper perspective.

Mental illness is not simply black or white and just because we see behaviors associated with an illnesses does not mean that one has that illness. Several psychiatric disorders have many of the same issues.
I have to agree that most of us have done/been most of those things at one time or another. However, they are not part of our personality or part of how we go about viewing ourselves, others or the world in general. I do agree that symptoms have to be viewed in context (frequency and intensity) and there is no way we can adequately diagnose Casey without knowing A LOT more about her. I think we are all just trying to understand why someone would act a certain way and throwing out possibilities.

OneLostGrl
08-08-2008, 04:28 PM
I have to agree that most of us have done/been most of those things at one time or another. However, they are not part of our personality or part of how we go about viewing ourselves, others or the world in general. I do agree that symptoms have to be viewed in context (frequency and intensity) and there is no way we can adequately diagnose Casey without knowing A LOT more about her. I think we are all just trying to understand why someone would act a certain way and throwing out possibilities.

I used myself as the example in that post because I'm not "normal".. I'm not "most of you".. I do have a mental illness and have had symptoms much like the ones listed. However, I have Bipolar disorder not the other illnesses listed. My point was that it could be several other illnesses other than Casey being a Psychopath.

softsoul
08-08-2008, 04:44 PM
I used myself as the example in that post because I'm not "normal".. I'm not "most of you".. I do have a mental illness and have had symptoms much like the ones listed. However, I have Bipolar disorder not the other illnesses listed. My point was that it could be several other illnesses other than Casey being a Psychopath.
Oh, I agree that she doesn't necessarily have Antisocial Personality. However, a lack of remorse or empathy isn't common at all among those with Bipolar...you are lucky enough to feel all the grief and guilt as those of us who are not Bipolar..;) I have to say that Casey's PUBLIC behavior has led many to believe she is not grieving the loss of her child...however temporary or permanent that loss may be.

Blue_Dolphin308
08-08-2008, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Suzi

Personality disorders and considered incurable right? A case of a narcissist locally had her own shrink tell the court that she's incurable, and only incarceration might help her.



Not always the case here. Take me for instance I have been diagnosed with Multiple personality disorder/Disociative Identity Disorder. Although there are no meds that will cure it, It can be cured with intensive therapy. So it is cureble, just takes time and energy.

curiositycat
08-08-2008, 04:47 PM
I don't think anyone of us without "interviewing" Casey is capable of truly making a diagnosis in this case. Most of what we have been told has been through second parties. How many times do we hear someone casually make the statement "So and So is crazy, or bi-polar" We can speculate and I am usually the most guilty among us with doing that. But to even think, based just on what we have heard or seen, that we are qualified to make a valid diagnosis re: Casey, is just arrogant and we really shouldn't do that.

I am old enough to remember people being placed in mental institutions years ago because a family member that wanted to get rid of them either gave a doctor a lot of money to say the family member was crazy OR had them committed on their own.

This whole family would make an interesting case study. But there is still not enough information from professionals for any of us to continue to speculate.

softsoul
08-08-2008, 04:53 PM
Not always the case here. Take me for instance I have been diagnosed with Multiple personality disorder/Disociative Identity Disorder. Although there are no meds that will cure it, It can be cured with intensive therapy. So it is cureble, just takes time and energy.
DID is not a Personality Disorder, it is classified as a dissociative disorder.

Blue_Dolphin308
08-08-2008, 05:07 PM
DID is not a Personality Disorder, it is classified as a dissociative disorder.

I know this, but my point is you can be diagnosed with a personality disorder, and still be able to be cured. Maybe not with meds, but with intensive therapy...

curiositycat
08-08-2008, 05:12 PM
I know this, but my point is you can be diagnosed with a personality disorder, and still be able to be cured. Maybe not with meds, but with intensive therapy...
This is exactly right. No one who is willing to get treatment is beyond help. It's like Lupus, there is not a cure for it but the patient can be made to live more comfortably with it. I never give up on anyone who is wanting to get help. The problem is most of these people are so into denial of their problems that they don't get help and don't take meds on a regular basis so you never see them until they reach crisis level.

OneLostGrl
08-08-2008, 05:32 PM
Oh, I agree that she doesn't necessarily have Antisocial Personality. However, a lack of remorse or empathy isn't common at all among those with Bipolar...you are lucky enough to feel all the grief and guilt as those of us who are not Bipolar..;) I have to say that Casey's PUBLIC behavior has led many to believe she is not grieving the loss of her child...however temporary or permanent that loss may be.

The reasoning behind my post that we are now discussing was simply to point out that what was listed in the link that nicole long island posted. The criteria for anti-social personality disorder are also behaviors found in other mental illnesses or defects. I used my own diagnosis as an example.

I respectfully disagree with you in that during a manic phase when we hurt people (emotionally) we feel little to no remorse or empathy. We place the blame on others and are indifferent to others pain.

Again- I am not saying that I think Casey has Bipolar because I don't think that is the case. I was trying to remind people that percieved behaviors do not = a diagnosis.

OneLostGrl
08-08-2008, 05:40 PM
I don't think anyone of us without "interviewing" Casey is capable of truly making a diagnosis in this case. Most of what we have been told has been through second parties. How many times do we hear someone casually make the statement "So and So is crazy, or bi-polar" We can speculate and I am usually the most guilty among us with doing that. But to even think, based just on what we have heard or seen, that we are qualified to make a valid diagnosis re: Casey, is just arrogant and we really shouldn't do that.

I am old enough to remember people being placed in mental institutions years ago because a family member that wanted to get rid of them either gave a doctor a lot of money to say the family member was crazy OR had them committed on their own.

This whole family would make an interesting case study. But there is still not enough information from professionals for any of us to continue to speculate.


We don't have nearly enough information on Casey to know what's wrong with her, I agree.

wicket
08-08-2008, 05:55 PM
I have a friend who is Bi-Polar - she must stay on her meds or else trouble ensues. She has a great husband who monitors the meds as much as possible but sometimes she plays the 'I'm fine' game. She stops or cuts down on them. She is a very good woman, loves animals, (has no children), will help you in a second if needed. One time she visited me, and without my knowing she turned off the water in my bathroom, kitchen, etc. What a shock after she left - but we figured it out. I called her husband immediately and he contacted her doctor. She later admitted that she thought she was in a concentration camp and the pipes were filled with deadly gas. She apologized to me but I shrugged it off.
What I don't understand is why Casey's parents have not noticed these personality problems? Why haven't we heard from any aunts, uncles, cousins?
Also, Casey has often said that Caylee is very close to the house. That could be taken two ways - :confused:

Love_Mama
08-08-2008, 06:24 PM
I was not aware she has an issue with drug use. I really can't see that she does have any major problems with any major drugs- she has been in jail all this time and has not appeared to go through any type of withdrawl. She is not being held in a medical unit or segregation which is what they would do to make sure she stays safe while detoxing. Having seen her in court a couple of times and on video in jail, she does not have the "shakes" or anything else that would go with her being in withdrawl from drugs.

She seems to have tendencies for several different dx's. No doubt she has Bipolar-like behaviors and attitudes but IMO we don't know enough about this woman to know if she has ever had issues with depression OR mania not to mention delusions of grandeur etc etc.

I am not saying a dx of Bipolar is out of the question- I certainly wouldn't be surprised if information came out that shows she indeed has a history of Mania/Depression but IMO she presents more like a person with a personality disorder than with a person with Bipolar.

OneLostGrl. I don't think she's Bi-polar either and like you I definitely think she has a personality disorder and there are ton's of them.

I do think she does drugs and there is the possibility that she may be addicted to something.... More like Club Drugs. I think she's been mixed up with some drug dealers one of them being that the guy who put up the huge amount of money for the return of Caylee and who own's all kinds of non existent companies and Real Estate. I think his real business is drug trafficking.

Somewhere in one of these threads I believe she was qouted as saying
she was afraid for her life. Correct me if I'm wrong. If what I say above is correct, then I can see why she's afraid.

I would love to know her background..........how she grew up, what she did in High School, her relationship with her mom and dad, her brother.... That would tell us so much more. I'm sure LE has that info.

Guess I'm saying, "What we don't know we could write a book with"

Time will tell.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxoo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

Love_Mama
08-08-2008, 06:28 PM
Definitely Narcissistic.

And talk about "delusions of grandeur"!!! She wanted to believe that she had a job which she didn't have, to pay for a "nanny" that probably doesn't exist. Now she expects people to believe that her child was kidnapped, but not in the usual way with a ransom note, but in a "special way" that only she and her family can deal with because the cops would bungle it.

So she becomes one of Charlie's Angels and goes out looking for the child herself (allegedly) in her own little super-sleuth daydream, because calling 911 would just be too beneath her.

And where did she get these delusions? Possibly from her own mother, who is now taking calls and following leads on her own. Every time her mom is on TV, she lectures someone about how no one can understand anything except the family.

Borderline, Delusional, Bipolar, Sociopathic - call it what you will. Perhaps all of the above.

How about a 'Princess'

xxxxooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

Love_Mama
08-08-2008, 06:31 PM
Hello all, been reading the forum for the last few days and decided to join up. I live in Orlando, where of course it is the top story of every newscast here, and I have become enthralled with the case. Can't get enough of it! I live near several of the involved locations (Amy/Ricardo condo, old folks home area she took the cops to) and could easily do a little investigation work around them if needed.

This post may belong in the Theories thread instead, but I thought it might also apply in the Diagnosis thread here also, as I agree with the Delusions of Grandeur post by Thoughtfox.

My current opinion is that Casey hid her with someone to keep her from Cindy, possibly as punishment for how Casey was being treated by Cindy (that per Cindy's Myspace blog on July 3, which I'm really surprised none of the news outlets have hit on). I don't think she ever expected it to blow up into the huge national deal it has become, but now that it has she is going to try to take advantage of the situation in order to become a *Celebrity* (In her warped mind at least).

What could now happen is whoever has Caylee may get tired and/or scared becaue of all the press attention and all of a sudden Caylee will be found wandering around a mall or something by herself, and the "Kidnapper" will never be found, resulting in possible vindication of Casey ("See, I wasn't lying!"). Casey will then do her best to turn this into a situation where she becomes a *Celebrity* and tries to make money out of the situation somehow.

She didn't plan the whole thing out this way, but will take advantage of how it has turned out any way that she can.

Of course, there is the decomposition dog hits to contend with, but I am hoping that turns out to be something else and Caylee is OK.

Anyway, great forum and I look forward to being able to contribute in some small way!
Muzikman

Muzikman, Welcome to WS. and thanks for posting. I wish your theory was correct, we all do.

xxxxxxoooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

txsvicki
08-08-2008, 07:00 PM
I agree that not enough is known about Casey to say for sure that she might have this or that. But, enough of her behavior has been made public to say that she did not act like a normal person long before Caylee's disappearance and afterwards. Chronic lying and stealing is not normal, but I guess the experts will have to decide if it's a mental issue or if Casey is just immoral and dishonest.

OneLostGrl
08-08-2008, 07:04 PM
I agree that not enough is known about Casey to say for sure that she might have this or that. But, enough of her behavior has been made public to say that she did not act like a normal person long before Caylee's disappearance and afterwards. Chronic lying and stealing is not normal, but I guess the experts will have to decide if it's a mental issue or if Casey is just immoral and dishonest.

yep that's why they go to school :)

Love_Mama
08-08-2008, 07:34 PM
Thanks for the Welcome OneLostGirl!

I have to disagree with this part of your assesment. You do not really have the withdrawal symptoms from Cocaine as compared to say Heroin or Meth, especially if you haven't been using it that long. Cocaine is expensive and fairly prevalent around Orlando in some circles (such as possibly the rap promoter scene she seems to have gotten involved in with TonE) and would also explain the LARGE amounts of money she quickly ran up on Cindy's CC as well as the theft of money from Amy, needed to support the habit -especially if she was hooking up every one around her (TonE and friends, etc.)

Just another Party Girl trying to look cool to her new circle of friends.

Muzicman, MAYBE if they'd only done coke a FEW times they wouldn't have bad withdrawl symptoms but I've seen coke user's who would kill their mother to get some.

Meth....a lot cheaper might be what she done a bit of. Well...........it's just a cheap coke. Like you say, she sure might have been hooking up friends.

Also, there are a whole lot of new drugs being used today. Primarily prescription drugs. They are the rage with teenagers and college students and most likely clubbers
.
My son's friend , a lovely guy, married, never woke up one morning from using Scrips..and nobody every knew he was using them. He was working oh his Phd. at UC Irvine! Go figure!

xxxxxxxxxxxxooooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

OneLostGrl
08-10-2008, 10:04 PM
OneLostGrl. snip......


I would love to know her background..........how she grew up, what she did in High School, her relationship with her mom and dad, her brother.... That would tell us so much more. I'm sure LE has that info.

Guess I'm saying, "What we don't know we could write a book with"

Time will tell.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxoo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

I'd love to know more too!!

It's good to see you, mama :):blowkiss: