Nancy Cooper, 34, of Cary, N.C. #14

[raisincharlie]

Fran

Master keeper of links and legal docs - question. I have just tried to go back and review the Ex Parte order from the WRAL link. Apparently WRAL has done something which effectively removed several pages from the document -so I checked ABC and the N & O to no avail, simply not there.

Anyway to maybe find a cached link that we might be able to use to recover that document ?

[carolinalady]

Fran

Master keeper of links and legal docs - question. I have just tried to go back and review the Ex Parte order from the WRAL link. Apparently WRAL has done something which effectively removed several pages from the document -so I checked ABC and the N & O to no avail, simply not there.

Anyway to maybe find a cached link that we might be able to use to recover that document ?

Does this link (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/07/17/3222032/1216322668-20080717151650387.pdf) work for you?

[momto3kids]

What about the WalMart portion and the one at the ATM?

A lot of times a dump will have video surveillance of the entrance. It's to protect the workers as sometimes they work alone and $ is involved.

Since WalMart is so far away from HT, I doubt if WalMart had one it would capture anything. When BC entered he would enter from the stop light and the immediate turn to his left is HT. He doesn't have to pass WalMart. That would be wonderful if he did.
The dump is for WakeCo residents and no $$ is exchanged. There is usually only 1 person who is there that directs you which dumpster to put your trash in. There could be a camera, but my thoughts are there is not one.

[raisincharlie]

Does this link (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/07/17/3222032/1216322668-20080717151650387.pdf) work for you?

That works and seems to have all the pages. Could you maybe re-post it in the Legal Docs thread ?


Thank you, I'm stewing on something and needed to look again - appreciate it very much.

[reddress58]

That works and seems to have all the pages. Could you maybe re-post it in the Legal Docs thread ?


Thank you, I'm stewing on something and needed to look again - appreciate it very much.
Make sure you let us know the results of your "stew". We're all "hungry" for more "food".

[raisincharlie]

Make sure you let us know the results of your "stew". We're all "hungry" for more "food".


Think Interact. Let me ask you since you are there. Have you ever heard of Interact being called in to assist LE when LE is providing Victim Assistance to family members who have lost a loved one under criminal circumstances?

:)

[EntreNous]

Make sure you let us know the results of your "stew". We're all "hungry" for more "food".

Word! I'm not much of a sleuther, but love to follow along.

[reddress58]

Think Interact. Let me ask you since you are there. Have you ever heard of Interact being called in to assist LE when LE is providing Victim Assistance to family members who have lost a loved one under criminal circumstances?

:)
I honestly haven't followed any cases closely enough to answer that question, Raisin. Sorry. Maybe someone else who lives here in Cary/Wake Co. knows the answer.

[raisincharlie]

I honestly haven't followed any cases closely enough to answer that question, Raisin. Sorry. Maybe someone else who lives here in Cary/Wake Co. knows the answer.

That's okay. I will double check their website and see if there is any reference to it. Thanks !

[reddress58]

That's okay. I will double check their website and see if there is any reference to it. Thanks !
http://www.interactofwake.org/services/courtadv.php


Here. Did it for you.

[CARYISHOME]

http://www.interactofwake.org/services/courtadv.php


Here. Did it for you.

Here's CPD's web site. Looks like they notify Interact.



http://www.townofcary.org/depts/pddept/currentevents.htm

[raisincharlie]

Here's CPD's web site. Looks like they notify Interact.



http://www.townofcary.org/depts/pddept/currentevents.htm

Thank you and Reddress as well. Answers my question. So you don't wonder what I'm stewing on - there was a subpeona filed by the plaintiffs counsul - Alice Stubbs, for Interact prior to the 25 July custody hearing. For some reason it struck me - but I doubt Nancy had contact with Interact - I figured it might have been a connection made between LE to help with the children if possible.

[Deduction]

Think Interact. Let me ask you since you are there. Have you ever heard of Interact being called in to assist LE when LE is providing Victim Assistance to family members who have lost a loved one under criminal circumstances?

:)

I'm not familiar with Interact, but would think if they were active they would have been called in to assist the day the 7 or 8 Police had to pull the child from Brad's arms. I am surprised that came down the way it did. I would have thought the police would have called in CPS and they would have taken the children, offered milk and cookies, explained they were going to spend a few days with gramps and grandma etc. I really just can't agree with the way the police handled that part of this case.

[reddress58]

Thank you and Reddress as well. Answers my question. So you don't wonder what I'm stewing on - there was a subpeona filed by the plaintiffs counsul - Alice Stubbs, for Interact prior to the 25 July custody hearing. For some reason it struck me - but I doubt Nancy had contact with Interact - I figured it might have been a connection made between LE to help with the children if possible.
Why supeona them?? Just call.

[carolinalady]

Since WalMart is so far away from HT, I doubt if WalMart had one it would capture anything. When BC entered he would enter from the stop light and the immediate turn to his left is HT. He doesn't have to pass WalMart. That would be wonderful if he did.
The dump is for WakeCo residents and no $$ is exchanged. There is usually only 1 person who is there that directs you which dumpster to put your trash in. There could be a camera, but my thoughts are there is not one.

The one in N. Raleigh certainly did collect $. I know as we had to pay to dispose of old carpet. I've never been to the one on Yates Mill.

[raisincharlie]

Why supeona them?? Just call.

For the custody hearing - they would have to be subpeona'd to tell anything they know, if they were involved with those children.

[reddress58]

For the custody hearing - they would have to be subpeona'd to tell anything they know, if they were involved with those children.
I see. They may have been called by LE because of the fact Nancy died a violent death in case the children needed counseling or support.

[raisincharlie]

I see. They may have been called by LE because of the fact Nancy died a violent death in case the children needed counseling or support.

Yes. If those children heard anything or saw anything, especially Bella, there is a very good possibility she may have said something. Otherwise I don't see much reason for Interact to be subpeona'd for a custody hearing. I do think if Nancy went there for help, it would have been mentioned to someone.

[raisincharlie]

Thanks Carolinalady for posting the link again. Not sure what was wrong with the one here and at WRAL.

[reddress58]

Yes. If those children heard anything or saw anything, especially Bella, there is a very good possibility she may have said something. Otherwise I don't see much reason for Interact to be subpeona'd for a custody hearing. I do think if Nancy went there for help, it would have been mentioned to someone.
Good deduction, as usual, Raisin.

[raisincharlie]

Good deduction, as usual, Raisin.

Don't know about you but I didn't see anything in the Ex Parte that was proof Brad was a bad parent - I can't see for one minute why a judge would take those kids away unless there was something provided to him that at least one of the major accusations were addressed in a firm, authoritarian manner by a reputable resource. LE _ Interact would fit the bill.

[CARYISHOME]

Don't know about you but I didn't see anything in the Ex Parte that was proof Brad was a bad parent - I can't see for one minute why a judge would take those kids away unless there was something provided to him that at least one of the major accusations were addressed in a firm, authoritarian manner by a reputable resource. LE _ Interact would fit the bill.

I don't see proof he was a bad parent, either. There HAD to be something, though.

Are you suggesting NC contacted Interact before July 12? I think that is certainly possible - if she was feeling trapped she might be looking for any kind of help. If so, they may have records that would be beneficial to the parents. Maybe they were trying to claim some sort of confidentiality?

Just thinkin...

[raisincharlie]

I don't see proof he was a bad parent, either. There HAD to be something, though.

Are you suggesting NC contacted Interact before July 12? I think that is certainly possible - if she was feeling trapped she might be looking for any kind of help. If so, they may have records that would be beneficial to the parents. Maybe they were trying to claim some sort of confidentiality?

Just thinkin...

Actually, I don't think Nancy had any contact with Interact. From the affidavits, it is clear Nancy shared a lot with her friends. I find it hard to believe she would not have shared if she or those kids were being physically abused. This would have given her an immediate out. I think if Interact had any information it came to them after July 12th and possibly through Bella.

[reddress58]

Actually, I don't think Nancy had any contact with Interact. From the affidavits, it is clear Nancy shared a lot with her friends. I find it hard to believe she would not have shared if she or those kids were being physically abused. This would have given her an immediate out. I think if Interact had any information it came to them after July 12th and possibly through Bella.
I totally agree. That would be the first item mentioned in affidavits from friends. It would support their cause better than anything else they noted. Either Interact had presented something or...Interact "experts" suggested it would be better for the children to leave the present environment. Being a good dad, it would be hard for Brad to argue against the experts regarding his children.

[reddress58]

I totally agree. That would be the first item mentioned in affidavits from friends. It would support their cause better than anything else they noted. Either Interact had presented something or...Interact "experts" suggested it would be better for the children to leave the present environment. Being a good dad, it would be hard for Brad to argue against the experts regarding his children.
...meaning the environment of the investigation as a whole. Cary.

[CARYISHOME]

Actually, I don't think Nancy had any contact with Interact. From the affidavits, it is clear Nancy shared a lot with her friends. I find it hard to believe she would not have shared if she or those kids were being physically abused. This would have given her an immediate out. I think if Interact had any information it came to them after July 12th and possibly through Bella.

Let's stay on this a bit.

I see what you're saying about the friends; that was my first thought, too. Surely she would have told somebody she talked with Interact.

I am not thinking physical abuse, I'm thinking mental abuse. Sometimes the victim doesn't even realize they are being abused until some independent *someone* tells them so. Sure, you could have conversations with friends who express their opinions, but when an authoritative source confirms it, then it becomes real. So...I would not be surprised, if during the course of their meetings and conversations, her attorney recommended she seek some sort of counselling - maybe even recommended some places for her to go.

If I was an attorney it seems like that would be something I would do for my clients, almost standard procedure.

So to me it is a possiblity she talked with Interact before.

[reddress58]

Let's stay on this a bit.

I see what you're saying about the friends; that was my first thought, too. Surely she would have told somebody she talked with Interact.

I am not thinking physical abuse, I'm thinking mental abuse. Sometimes the victim doesn't even realize they are being abused until some independent *someone* tells them so. Sure, you could have conversations with friends who express their opinions, but when an authoritative source confirms it, then it becomes real. So...I would not be surprised, if during the course of their meetings and conversations, her attorney recommended she seek some sort of counselling - maybe even recommended some places for her to go.

If I was an attorney it seems like that would be something I would do for my clients, almost standard procedure.

So to me it is a possiblity she talked with Interact before.
She would have told one of her friends. She shared intimate details of her life with them. Why leave that out?

[raisincharlie]

Let's stay on this a bit.

I see what you're saying about the friends; that was my first thought, too. Surely she would have told somebody she talked with Interact.

I am not thinking physical abuse, I'm thinking mental abuse. Sometimes the victim doesn't even realize they are being abused until some independent *someone* tells them so. Sure, you could have conversations with friends who express their opinions, but when an authoritative source confirms it, then it becomes real. So...I would not be surprised, if during the course of their meetings and conversations, her attorney recommended she seek some sort of counselling - maybe even recommended some places for her to go.

If I was an attorney it seems like that would be something I would do for my clients, almost standard procedure.

So to me it is a possiblity she talked with Interact before.

It is possible indeed. I just don't tend to think that is the way it was. JMO

[CARYISHOME]

I totally agree. That would be the first item mentioned in affidavits from friends. It would support their cause better than anything else they noted. Either Interact had presented something or...Interact "experts" suggested it would be better for the children to leave the present environment. Being a good dad, it would be hard for Brad to argue against the experts regarding his children.

I see what you're saying.

[The Saint]

Thank you and Reddress as well. Answers my question. So you don't wonder what I'm stewing on - there was a subpeona filed by the plaintiffs counsul - Alice Stubbs, for Interact prior to the 25 July custody hearing. For some reason it struck me - but I doubt Nancy had contact with Interact - I figured it might have been a connection made between LE to help with the children if possible.


on the Interact website it mentions child custody and immigration. i believe nancy had contacted them for help.

[reddress58]

on the Interact website it mentions child custody and immigration. i believe nancy had contacted them for help.
Good thinking, Saint. It would be a free service. She had no money.

[CARYISHOME]

Good thinking, Saint. It would be a free service. She had no money.
Her attorney would no that, too.

[raisincharlie]

Good thinking, Saint. It would be a free service. She had no money.

If she had no money - why was Tharrington Smith - specifically Alice Stubbs, drawing up the separation papers - big buck firm no doubt. Think they do that as a favor for Interact ? The money most likely came from her parents.

[CARYISHOME]

If she had no money - why was Tharrington Smith - specifically Alice Stubbs, drawing up the separation papers - big buck firm no doubt. Think they do that as a favor for Interact ? The money most likely came from her parents.

I agree on that for sure - her parents must have been paying Tharrington Smith. I don't think Interact referred her to Tharrington; I think Tharrington referred her to Interact as a free service that might assist her in a variety of ways.

[raisincharlie]

I agree on that for sure - her parents must have been paying Tharrington Smith. I don't think Interact referred her to Tharrington; I think Tharrington referred her to Interact as a free service that might assist her in a variety of ways.


I don't.

[CARYISHOME]

I don't.

Well, maybe we'll find out for sure one day. In the meantime, I'll just add it to my list of unanswered questions to mull over.

[raisincharlie]

Well, maybe we'll find out for sure one day. In the meantime, I'll just add it to my list of unanswered questions to mull over.

Yep. But I think Reddress has a point - Nancy would have told her friends if there was abuse - especially with an impending custody suit - the more the merrier come court time. The only thing Interact could provide Nancy that Tharrington Smith could not was counsuling for abuse. Back to Reddress' thought - and with an impending custody battle - I have serious doubts Nancy would not have informed potential witnesses of such.

I imagine we will find out for sure though.

[reddress58]

Yep. But I think Reddress has a point - Nancy would have told her friends if there was abuse - especially with an impending custody suit - the more the merrier come court time. The only thing Interact could provide Nancy that Tharrington Smith could not was counsuling for abuse. Back to Reddress' thought - and with an impending custody battle - I have serious doubts Nancy would not have informed potential witnesses of such.

I imagine we will find out for sure though.
But Interact also helps with immigration issues...and that's where she needed special assistance. She may have consulted them for that reason only.

[raisincharlie]

But Interact also helps with immigration issues...and that's where she needed special assistance. She may have consulted them for that reason only.

That's probably true as I don't think TS has any involvement with immigration issues. Seems Brad was resolving one of her issues though through Cisco - with respect to a green card, heard that but can't remember where. Might be BS. Do you recall that - Brad getting her a green card through Cisco?

[Just the Fax]

I agree on that for sure - her parents must have been paying Tharrington Smith. I don't think Interact referred her to Tharrington; I think Tharrington referred her to Interact as a free service that might assist her in a variety of ways.

After a small retainer to cover the initial work, most divorce attorneys will collect their fees after the assets are divided (house sold, ect).

[wirehair]

That's probably true as I don't think TS has any involvement with immigration issues. Seems Brad was resolving one of her issues though through Cisco - with respect to a green card, heard that but can't remember where. Might be BS. Do you recall that - Brad getting her a green card through Cisco?

Maybe JA's aff.

[The Saint]

thank you for the report and photographs of the area were nancy's body was found, sleuthygal. thanks to all who attended.

i hope that your dog feels better soon, wirehair.

[The Saint]

That's probably true as I don't think TS has any involvement with immigration issues. Seems Brad was resolving one of her issues though through Cisco - with respect to a green card, heard that but can't remember where. Might be BS. Do you recall that - Brad getting her a green card through Cisco?
brad could have been dragging his feet about nancy's greencard. it was a very importnat way he could control her.

if her greencard was tied to cisco and brad, she would have to stay married to him for even longer.

[reddress58]

That's probably true as I don't think TS has any involvement with immigration issues. Seems Brad was resolving one of her issues though through Cisco - with respect to a green card, heard that but can't remember where. Might be BS. Do you recall that - Brad getting her a green card through Cisco?
Supposedly yes...that's why she was delaying the separation filing. That was in one of her friend's affidavits.

[The Saint]

i have witnessed a over a half a dozen greencard hassles involving friends. it can take years and lots of money, sometimes requiring switching immigration lawyers.

fingerprints and blood tests expire while the INS is bungling your paperwork. the applicants on the last leg of clinton's term got especially screwed.

i witnessed this firsthand and went to a final interview. it was like the KGB. very creepy and scary.

[Star12]

Interact operates under the United Way to provide a domestic violence shelter. In my experience with them, they really could not do anything for me until I actually left my ex. Once at the secret, private facility, we 'interacted' with the other residents, shared in grocery shopping and cleaning, had off site group sessions to discuss DV, had social times (movies, etc). Interact had a file of information, including attorney names, social services, job banks, etc., to help the women move back into self sufficiency.
There also was counseling for the children. But none of this was 'free'. We had to either pay a nominal sum, or work off our debt. And yes, in extreme cases they would accept women from other states, or move them out of the area. There also was a length of time for the live-in session - and I forget just how long it was. I do remember that I left the program early. Just remember, that my experience was 20 years ago. I don't know how they operate now, but believe it would be essentially the same. And, in my opinion, they would not provide counseling for someone not in the program, and they would not appear in court to testify about any counseling, but would perhaps appear to testify as to the types of abuse.

[The Saint]

according to their website, Interactprovdes help for women with finding housing and employment.
i don't think TS would do that.

[reddress58]

Interact operates under the United Way to provide a domestic violence shelter. In my experience with them, they really could not do anything for me until I actually left my ex. Once at the secret, private facility, we 'interacted' with the other residents, shared in grocery shopping and cleaning, had off site group sessions to discuss DV, had social times (movies, etc). Interact had a file of information, including attorney names, social services, job banks, etc., to help the women move back into self sufficiency.
There also was counseling for the children. But none of this was 'free'. We had to either pay a nominal sum, or work off our debt. And yes, in extreme cases they would accept women from other states, or move them out of the area. There also was a length of time for the live-in session - and I forget just how long it was. I do remember that I left the program early. Just remember, that my experience was 20 years ago. I don't know how they operate now, but believe it would be essentially the same. And, in my opinion, they would not provide counseling for someone not in the program, and they would not appear in court to testify about any counseling, but would perhaps appear to testify as to the types of abuse.
Very helpful info, Star. Thanks!!

[The Saint]

it could be that TS attorneys handle some cases on a sliding scale or pro bono as a way of giving back to the community.

sometimes lawyers volunteer their services through other organizations; this could be the case with alice stubbs. she may have an association with Interact.

[The Saint]

after reading Star's post, it does seem likely that Interact was just going to be called as an expert witness of how a women in nancy's situation may have reacted or the effect on the cooper children.

[raisincharlie]

Supposedly yes...that's why she was delaying the separation filing. That was in one of her friend's affidavits.

I found it. I quess the green card became an essential item since Brad could not find a position in Toronto so Nancy decided to stay in the US. From this it seems immigration issues would not be of a concern prior to this time and as long as she was married to Brad. The separation would require her to obtain a green card to remain. So we can probably date this to about the same time or shortly after the preparation of the separation agreement. If Brad was indeed getting the green card through Cisco, which Cisco can verify or deny either way, Nancy didn't have any immigration issues really.

[CARYISHOME]

I found it. I quess the green card became an essential item since Brad could not find a position in Toronto so Nancy decided to stay in the US. From this it seems immigration issues would not be of a concern prior to this time and as long as she was married to Brad. The separation would require her to obtain a green card to remain. So we can probably date this to about the same time or shortly after the preparation of the separation agreement. If Brad was indeed getting the green card through Cisco, which Cisco can verify or deny either way, Nancy didn't have any immigration issues really.

Wow...I'd sure hate to have to rely on my husband to get me a green card while I was divorcing him and trying to take everything he had...

What an awful situation. Seems like she would be looking for help in any way shape or form, and from any source available.

[raisincharlie]

Wow...I'd sure hate to have to rely on my husband to get me a green card while I was divorcing him and trying to take everything he had...

What an awful situation. Seems like she would be looking for help in any way shape or form, and from any source available.

Quess she could have moved into a shelter, but she didn't.

[EntreNous]

I'm not familiar with Interact, but would think if they were active they would have been called in to assist the day the 7 or 8 Police had to pull the child from Brad's arms. I am surprised that came down the way it did. I would have thought the police would have called in CPS and they would have taken the children, offered milk and cookies, explained they were going to spend a few days with gramps and grandma etc. I really just can't agree with the way the police handled that part of this case.

I concur, that was rough. Poor little thing knew something was up and was probably scared to death.:mad:

[Star12]

But who knows what Brad said to her, either, or how he said it. Really, I do not think it would have been a good thing for the grandparents to take the children. I can't see just how else this could have been done.

[MoonFlwr]

But who knows what Brad said to her, either, or how he said it. Really, I do not think it would have been a good thing for the grandparents to take the children. I can't see just how else this could have been done.

In a comforting environment, with a gentle explanation about what was going on? I am sure it could've been handled better.

[carolinalady]

But who knows what Brad said to her, either, or how he said it. Really, I do not think it would have been a good thing for the grandparents to take the children. I can't see just how else this could have been done.

My only problem is the way it was done via Ex Parte hearing. They (including her family's attorneys) knew that BC was in town, knew he had been to his lawyer's office, etc. They could have notified him so he could have attended/defended himself at the hearing. I know that the judge had to hear something to make the decision that he did and surely wouldn't have wanted to be responsible IF anything happened to the girls if they remained in BC's care, but I still don't like the way it was done.

Edited to clarify, I don't like the way it was described as going down in BC's affidavit either, I was just trying to convey that it could've been handled better from the beginning.

[Sewing_Buddy]

Didn't Nancy's parents and Brad "share" the girls early on in the investigation?

I'm wondering if Nancy's dad (since he worked for Social Services) was able to question Bella. I know I would gently question my nieces if something happened to my sister. It's amazing what they can tell you! But I do agree that the questioning would have to happen soon after in order to put a lot of merit in its accuracy - based on the fact that young children aren't too good with elapsed time.

Could Bella's information been the detail that convinced the judge to give custody to Nancy's sister and parents?

[Star12]

My only problem is the way it was done via Ex Parte hearing. They (including her family's attorneys) knew that BC was in town, knew he had been to his lawyer's office, etc. They could have notified him so he could have attended/defended himself at the hearing. I know that the judge had to hear something to make the decision that he did and surely wouldn't have wanted to be responsible IF anything happened to the girls if they remained in BC's care, but I still don't like the way it was done.

Edited to clarify, I don't like the way it was described as going down in BC's affidavit either, I was just trying to convey that it could've been handled better from the beginning.

The thing about the Ex Parte hearing is that is a one-sided hearing. And by law the other party's time to respond is within a proscribed time period. That gives him time to prepare his side, also. So it's not as though he did not have a chance - and the protection of the children was of the prime importance.

[carolinalady]

The thing about the Ex Parte hearing is that is a one-sided hearing. And by law the other party's time to respond is within a proscribed time period. That gives him time to prepare his side, also. So it's not as though he did not have a chance - and the protection of the children was of the prime importance.

Are there NEVER emergency custody hearings where both sides are present?

[Deduction]

The thing about the Ex Parte hearing is that is a one-sided hearing. And by law the other party's time to respond is within a proscribed time period. That gives him time to prepare his side, also. So it's not as though he did not have a chance - and the protection of the children was of the prime importance.

An ex parte judicial proceeding is conducted for the benefit of only one party.

I don't think the other party does have a time to respond that is the purpose of Ex Parte---it is for the benefit of one party. Brad was not allowed to respond otherwise it would not have been Ex Parte.

[The Saint]

I found it. I quess the green card became an essential item since Brad could not find a position in Toronto so Nancy decided to stay in the US. From this it seems immigration issues would not be of a concern prior to this time and as long as she was married to Brad. The separation would require her to obtain a green card to remain. So we can probably date this to about the same time or shortly after the preparation of the separation agreement. If Brad was indeed getting the green card through Cisco, which Cisco can verify or deny either way, Nancy didn't have any immigration issues really.


yes, nancy did have immigration issues. she was unable to work without a greencard. if getting her greencard was tied to brad and cisco, then she would have been stuck staying w/ him if she was unable to get one on her own.

it was about her being able to work here not just live here.

[carolinalady]

An ex parte judicial proceeding is conducted for the benefit of only one party.

I don't think the other party does have a time to respond that is the purpose of Ex Parte---it is for the benefit of one party. Brad was not allowed to respond otherwise it would not have been Ex Parte.

Exactly. And it might have ended w/ the same agreement reached at the hearing on 7/25 if he had been notified and attended the original hearing. It's not like they didn't know where he was to notify him of the hearing. The police were watching his every move and he'd been making plans w/ her family during the day.

[Star12]

His time to respond to the Ex Parte Order was on July 25th - the Custody hearing.

[The Saint]

An ex parte judicial proceeding is conducted for the benefit of only one party.

I don't think the other party does have a time to respond that is the purpose of Ex Parte---it is for the benefit of one party. Brad was not allowed to respond otherwise it would not have been Ex Parte.

ex parte is just about filing a motion that requires a judge's intervention for expediency, isn't it? it not about getting around due process or not allowing brad to respond.

you submit your motion to ex parte and you serve a copy to the defendant
(or plaintiff, depending on the case) after the judge signs.


you wait until the judge signs it and then you attach
a xerox copy of the judge's writing that tells you when and where to appear. you attach the judge's order to your moving papers.

you usually have to serve the other party within 48 hours of the judge signing.

if you are requesting a judge's order (Order to Show Cause, imminent danger to a child, etc) it is done for expediency. a judge can compel
the other party to act.

i don't know how NC works, but in most states, OTSCs are filed w/ Ex Parte and other motions are filed in the Motion Support office of the court house.

it is not about trying to pull a fast one on the other party or the law being one-sided. it is procedural.

Brad was allowed to respond at the time and date the judge set. his affidavits are that response. he could have attended the hearing but he sent his lawyer on his behalf.

[SleuthyGal]

This ex-parte emergency hearing was not, IMHO, just a power play. I think NC's parents honestly believed right from the get-go that BC committed the murder and that their grandkids might be in danger. That's the impression I got. The handoff was not so smooth, no. But I think the grandparents were scared out of their gourds that he might do something to harm himself and the kids.

[Deduction]

Exactly. And it might have ended w/ the same agreement reached at the hearing on 7/25 if he had been notified and attended the original hearing. It's not like they didn't know where he was to notify him of the hearing. The police were watching his every move and he'd been making plans w/ her family during the day.

I agree and he was even on his way to take the children to visit the grandparents when the 7 police stepped in and pulled the child from his arms crying. I can not see this in any way but very poorly managed. Why not let him give the children to the grandparents then serve the papers on him quietly. Perhaps, that wasn't enough action for the cameras.

[SusieClue]

This ex-parte emergency hearing was not, IMHO, just a power play. I think NC's parents honestly believed right from the get-go that BC committed the murder and that their grandkids might be in danger. That's the impression I got. The handoff was not so smooth, no. But I think the grandparents were scared out of their gourds that he might do something to harm himself and the kids.

I agree. They felt they needed to surprise him (catch him off guard) so the kids wouldn't be in danger of him feeling threatened. I'm only sorry if the kids were confused/scared, but I know the GPs truly felt it to be in their best interest, and I think I agree!

[Star12]

I agree and he was even on his way to take the children to visit the grandparents when the 7 police stepped in and pulled the child from his arms crying. I can not see this in any way but very poorly managed. Why not let him give the children to the grandparents then serve the papers on him quietly. Perhaps, that wasn't enough action for the cameras.

Cameras?

[Deduction]

His time to respond to the Ex Parte Order was on July 25th - the Custody hearing.


If his time to respond was July 25 why did 7 police take his children and send them to Canada, sorry but his time to respond was over when the Judge said send his children to Canada---end of story. He got a second chance on the 25th.

[dyrewolfe]

I agree and he was even on his way to take the children to visit the grandparents when the 7 police stepped in and pulled the child from his arms crying. I can not see this in any way but very poorly managed. Why not let him give the children to the grandparents then serve the papers on him quietly. Perhaps, that wasn't enough action for the cameras.

Ooooh! You have video? Can I see? Can I have a link?

[carolinalady]

Are there NEVER emergency custody hearings where both sides are present?

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[carolinalady]

This ex-parte emergency hearing was not, IMHO, just a power play. I think NC's parents honestly believed right from the get-go that BC committed the murder and that their grandkids might be in danger. That's the impression I got. The handoff was not so smooth, no. But I think the grandparents were scared out of their gourds that he might do something to harm himself and the kids.

I don't know. I think it partially might have been a power play. The Rentz/Lister attorney is a former family court judge after all.

Again, they knew where he was and could've served him. And, the kids weren't w/ him at ALL times (they were w/ friends during some of his questioning, atty visits, etc.) and he was being watched by police the entire time. The timing of the serving could've easily be done while the children were not in his presence and therefore they would've been out of harms way (if they were worried that he'd harm the kids after being served).

[The Saint]

i think nancy's inability to work legally (due to the lack of the greencard) was one of the major contributing factors to her murder. i think she felt trapped, brad controlled the money and seemed to act like nancy was wasting or spending all of HIS money.

some men resent their wives staying home with the children.

i have a friend who supported her husband with the agreement that when they had a child, she would stay at home until the child was in kindergarten.even though that was what they had agreed, he was resentful and pouty because she wasn't working and they ended up divorced.

[carolinalady]

i think nancy's inability to work legally (due to the lack of the greencard) was one of the major contributing factors to her murder. i think she felt trapped, brad controlled the money and seemed to act like nancy was wasting or spending all of HIS money.

i think that some men resent their wives staying home with the children.

i have a friend who supported her husband with the agreement that when they had a child, she would stay at home until the child was in kindergarten.even though that was what they had agreed, he was resentful and pouty because she wasn't working and they ended up divorced.

It would be interesting to hear how it was prior to the children. They moved here 8 years ago (that house shows they bought it in Jan 01) and she's been unable to legally work in the US the entire time. Of course, having two children greatly increases the amount you spend.

I don't have it in me to go back through the affidavits tonight, but I would be interested in which of her friends knew them prior to kids since a lot indicate when they met Nancy (& Brad for that matter).

[The Saint]

It would be interesting to hear how it was prior to the children. They moved here 8 years ago (that house shows they bought it in Jan 01) and she's been unable to legally work in the US the entire time. Of course, having two children greatly increases the amount you spend.

I don't have it in me to go back through the affidavits tonight, but I would be interested in which of her friends knew them prior to kids since a lot indicate when they met Nancy (& Brad for that matter).


i am sure that it is hard work having 2 small children but did nancy prefer not to work, whether she was legally able to not?

were there places in Cary where should could have worked off the books?

wasn't she IT in canada? was there a job that she could have done for Cisco from home?

selling on ebay or etsy?

[The Saint]

i am in no way saying that she is responsible for her own murder by working at home as a mother. i am just interested in knowing what options she had that would have enabled her to get away from brad.

[carolinalady]

i am sure that it is hard work having 2 small children but did nancy prefer not to work, whether she was legally able to not?

were there places in Cary where should could have worked off the books?

wasn't she IT in canada? was there a job that she could have done for Cisco from home?

selling on ebay or etsy?

For some reason I thought someone said she ran a shop in Canada. I could be completely wrong.

[carolinalady]

RC, what year BMW did you figure out the Nancy's car was? Or did you?

I know that in BC's affidavit or the rebuttal he says that he is now driving Nancy's old car. I was looking as county records and if I've got the right one, it shows he had a Z3 before (last tax bills in 2003). Of course, I could have the wrong BC as it doesn't show billing address but w/ the preference for BMWs made me think I have the right one. There is also one year w/ a bill for a something listed as YAMA (maybe a Yamaha motorcycle/sportbike?).

I was just trying to look at preferences prior to the kiddos being born.

[fran]

To those curious about Nancy working, not working etc. I invite you to read the Erased thread. There's some links with interesting information that may help you understand where Nancy was coming from before she was Erased. :(

fran

[The Saint]

To those curious about Nancy working, not working etc. I invite you to read the Erased thread. There's some links with interesting information that may help you understand where Nancy was coming from before she was Erased. :(

fran


i haven't read the book, Erased, but other friends have and recommend it.
Both Nancy Cooper and Michelle Young have been erased, imo...

[The Saint]

Why hasn't Cisco offered a reward for information to help find Nancy's murderer?

[raisincharlie]

RC, what year BMW did you figure out the Nancy's car was? Or did you?

I know that in BC's affidavit or the rebuttal he says that he is now driving Nancy's old car. I was looking as county records and if I've got the right one, it shows he had a Z3 before (last tax bills in 2003). Of course, I could have the wrong BC as it doesn't show billing address but w/ the preference for BMWs made me think I have the right one. There is also one year w/ a bill for a something listed as YAMA (maybe a Yamaha motorcycle/sportbike?).

I was just trying to look at preferences prior to the kiddos being born.


The BMW X5 was a 2004 model - on the county records it will be coded as SW - for sport wagon. You have the right stuff - they did have a Z3 BMW and a Yamaha V6a motorcycle (listed for one year only - 2002 I think). Until the BMW X 5 - they only had one vehicle per year and if you notice - that vehicle is only listed on the tax record for one year -WTH ?

You got it.:)

[fran]

i haven't read the book, Erased, but other friends have and recommend it.
Both Nancy Cooper and Michelle Young have been erased, imo...

Janet Aboroa was also 'Erased!' :(

fran

PS...we have a forum here for Janet also. Another resident of NC. :(

[fran]

Why hasn't Cisco offered a reward for information to help find Nancy's murderer?

They probably never thought of it?:confused:

Frankly, I doubt that they appreciate the name "Cisco" keeps coming up when people discuss this case. They most likely just want the case to be solved and go away!

fran

[carolinalady]

Brad was allowed to respond at the time and date the judge set. his affidavits are that response. he could have attended the hearing but he sent his lawyer on his behalf.

I wanted to come back to this.

His lawyer was not at the original hearing. Are you saying BC didn't attend the 7/25 meeting in judge's chambers? My understanding from reading the news reports is that he was there in chambers w/ his attorney and Nancy's family and attorneys. He signed the Memorandum of Judgement/Order (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/07/25/3282832/July_25_memorandum_of_judgment_order.pdf) as did his attorney(s).

[The Saint]

I wanted to come back to this.

His lawyer was not at the original hearing. Are you saying BC didn't attend the 7/25 meeting in judge's chambers? My understanding from reading the news reports is that he was there in chambers w/ his attorney and Nancy's family and attorneys. He signed the Memorandum of Judgement/Order (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/07/25/3282832/July_25_memorandum_of_judgment_order.pdf) as did his attorney(s).


i'm not sure whether brad was there or not. i'm not up to date on all of the info. i may have misspoken.

my point was that when one party (nancy cooper's family in this case) files
an Ex Parte motion for a judge's emergency intervention, it isn't done to deny the rights of the opposition. the opposing party will have their chance to speak and present their case to the judge.

[raisincharlie]

But Interact also helps with immigration issues...and that's where she needed special assistance. She may have consulted them for that reason only.

Since you pointed me in the direction of the Cisco reference I did go back and look. It was Brett Adam who reports this issue of the green card based on a conversation he had with Nancy. Lines 5 (second 5), 6, and 7. Brett does not indicate that Nancy sought assistance from low income or other services for immigration purposes. He goes indicate that Nancy told him an immigration lawyer was too expensive. He also indicates that Nancy told him that the proceedings were placed on hold until she got her green card through Cisco.

Reading that it seems reasonable to think that Nancy did not have a problem trying to obtain a green card and was comfortable believing Brad was managing the issue through Cisco. So I continue to believe she did not contact Interact for such assistance and that at least in her mind she did not think she had a problem with respect to obtaining a green card. Will clarify that she could have had a problem but was not aware - in other words maybe Brad was getting it done and maybe he wasn't. After the recent warrant on Cisco, I also think it is reasonable to think that LE knows the answer to this particular aspect.

Thanks for jogging my brain as to where this information was :)

[carolinalady]

The BMW X5 was a 2004 model - on the county records it will be coded as SW - for sport wagon. You have the right stuff - they did have a Z3 BMW and a Yamaha V6a motorcycle (listed for one year only - 2002 I think). Until the BMW X 5 - they only had one vehicle per year and if you notice - that vehicle is only listed on the tax record for one year -WTH ?

You got it.:)

Thanks!

[Star12]

I wanted to come back to this.

His lawyer was not at the original hearing. Are you saying BC didn't attend the 7/25 meeting in judge's chambers? My understanding from reading the news reports is that he was there in chambers w/ his attorney and Nancy's family and attorneys. He signed the Memorandum of Judgement/Order (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/07/25/3282832/July_25_memorandum_of_judgment_order.pdf) as did his attorney(s).

Yes, he was there. There was a photo showing him all shaved, suited up, on his way to the hearing.

But it looks to me that it was settled prior to the actual hearing. It has been my experience that the attorneys ask for a delay, then they park each side in a different room and go back and forth (the attorneys on each side) presenting the different options until they have an agreement. Then one of the attorneys will handwrite the agreement, get it signed by all parties, and present it to the judge for approval. BTDT.

[Just the Fax]

Yes, he was there. There was a photo showing him all shaved, suited up, on his way to the hearing.

But it looks to me that it was settled prior to the actual hearing. It has been my experience that the attorneys ask for a delay, then they park each side in a different room and go back and forth (the attorneys on each side) presenting the different options until they have an agreement. Then one of the attorneys will handwrite the agreement, get it signed by all parties, and present it to the judge for approval. BTDT.

The agreement was reached in the hour before the 2 pm scheduled hearing. The Judge was in the courtroom waiting with the media and witnesses and not in the room on the 4th floor the parties and their attorney's met (judges chambers used as a meeting room).

[carolinalady]

i'm not sure whether brad was there or not. i'm not up to date on all of the info. i may have misspoken.

my point was that when one party (nancy cooper's family in this case) files
an Ex Parte motion for a judge's emergency intervention, it isn't done to deny the rights of the opposition. the opposing party will have their chance to speak and present their case to the judge.

Do you know if in North Carolina emergency custody hearings are ever held where both parties are present? Or, I guess to ask in a different way, are all North Carolina Emergency Custody Hearings Ex Parte?

I guess part of the issue is that up to this point her parents were not fearful of BC (again I point to Gary Rentz saying he spoke w/ Nancy often, was aware of the situations, and was not worried for her). Also, I point to the draft separation agreement where Nancy & her attorney were giving BC plenty of visitation opportunities so no concern about parenting abilities there. Up to this point, BC has not been named a suspect (though we know he's being looked at) and yet they take the kids. Again, this was a case where BC was under the constant watch of LE.

Edited to correct name.

[The Saint]

The agreement was reached in the hour before the 2 pm scheduled hearing. The Judge was in the courtroom waiting with the media and witnesses and not in the room on the 4th floor the parties and their attorney's met (judges chambers used as a meeting room).

it sounds like mediation

[Just the Fax]

Do you know if in North Carolina emergency custody hearings are ever held where both parties are present?

.

Brad Cooper was not there.
He had his chance to answer on 7-25-08

[reddress58]

Since you pointed me in the direction of the Cisco reference I did go back and look. It was Brett Adam who reports this issue of the green card based on a conversation he had with Nancy. Lines 5 (second 5), 6, and 7. Brett does not indicate that Nancy sought assistance from low income or other services for immigration purposes. He goes indicate that Nancy told him an immigration lawyer was too expensive. He also indicates that Nancy told him that the proceedings were placed on hold until she got her green card through Cisco.

Reading that it seems reasonable to think that Nancy did not have a problem trying to obtain a green card and was comfortable believing Brad was managing the issue through Cisco. So I continue to believe she did not contact Interact for such assistance and that at least in her mind she did not think she had a problem with respect to obtaining a green card. Will clarify that she could have had a problem but was not aware - in other words maybe Brad was getting it done and maybe he wasn't. After the recent warrant on Cisco, I also think it is reasonable to think that LE knows the answer to this particular aspect.

Thanks for jogging my brain as to where this information was :)
You are welcome. Least I can do for our master sleuth/thinker guy. :-)

[The Saint]

Do you know if in North Carolina emergency custody hearings are ever held where both parties are present? Or, I guess to ask in a different way, are all North Carolina Emergency Custody Hearings Ex Parte?

I guess part of the issue is that up to this point her parents were not fearful of BC (again I point to Jim Rentz saying he spoke w/ Nancy often, was aware of the situations, and was not worried for her). Also, I point to the draft separation agreement where Nancy & her attorney were giving BC plenty of visitation opportunities so no concern about parenting abilities there. Up to this point, BC has not been named a suspect (though we know he's being looked at) and yet they take the kids. Again, this was a case where BC was under the constant watch of LE.

maybe a NC lawyer could answer your question. it seems likely that they would all be Ex Parte, in that, someone sees an immediate need for a judge's intervention and files a motion.

i don't know how it works in NC, but i think Ex Parte refers to the type of motion and that office that handles it. the hearing itself would not be refered to as an "Ex Parte Hearing." it is a hearing before the judge, with both parties present, to discuss the motion and what action the plaintiff or defendant is requesting.

is that what they called the cooper's custody hearings in the press? maybe that is how they refer to the hearing in NC

[carolinalady]

Brad Cooper was not there.
He had his chance to answer on 7-25-08

Right, I understand, this case was Ex Parte.

I'm asking in general, are emergency custody hearings ever conducted w/ both parties present (or non-ex parte, if you will).

[carolinalady]

maybe an NC lawyer could answer your question. it seems likely that they would all be Ex Parte, in that, someone sees an immediate need for a judge's intervention and files a motion.

I agree it is likely that many are Ex Parte and I understand that in most cases, the other party would not be constantly watched by the police Therefore they may flee w/ a child before a custody hearing.

Any NC lawyers out there to answer my question?

[The Saint]

what is the story about the $8,000 painting?

[The Saint]

is it Star who talked about Interact?
she might have custody hearing experience.

[Star12]

Carolinalady,

Without going back over my court papers, which frankly nauseates me, I am pretty sure that the first filing in my case was an ex parte, setting forth the time of the hearing, because I had left the house and gone to Interact while he was out of town and it was safe for me to leave with the children. Prevented me from being accused of kidnapping, too.

[carolinalady]

what is the story about the $8,000 painting?

Nancy liked expensive paintings according to BC's affidavit/rebuttal. However, he was supposed to get some of them in the draft separation agreement.

[Jess]

[QUOTE=carolinalady;2446865]Do you know if in North Carolina emergency custody hearings are ever held where both parties are present? Or, I guess to ask in a different way, are all North Carolina Emergency Custody Hearings Ex Parte?

(again I point to Jim Rentz saying he spoke w/ Nancy often, was aware of the situations, and was not worried for her).

But the Mother said she was worried. Spoken immediately after her husband said he was not worried.

Also,fyi, there have been NO pictures of the family, not even a mention that they have returned to Edmonton in any of the local media. There was just a mention that the search warrants were to remain sealed.

[carolinalady]

Carolinalady,

Without going back over my court papers, which frankly nauseates me, I am pretty sure that the first filing in my case was an ex parte, setting forth the time of the hearing, because I had left the house and gone to Interact while he was out of town and it was safe for me to leave with the children. Prevented me from being accused of kidnapping, too.

Glad you got out of there safe & sound.

I'm going to see if I can track down one of my lawyer buddies that deal w/ custody cases. I'll see what he says about the hearings.

[Star12]

Nancy liked expensive paintings according to BC's affidavit/rebuttal. However, he was supposed to get some of them in the draft separation agreement.

Brad was to get 9 of the paintings, Nancy was to get 7. Perhaps Brad liked paintings more than Nancy.

[carolinalady]

But the Mother said she was worried. Spoken immediately after her husband said he was not worried.

Also,fyi, there have been NO pictures of the family, not even a mention that they have returned to Edmonton in any of the local media. There was just a mention that the search warrants were to remain sealed.

I can't imagine what Nancy's family is going through. I'm glad the media is giving them their space.

I do remember her mom saying she was worried. I'm sure no one ever imagined she would end up murdered roughly a week after she vacationed w/ her family.

[raisincharlie]

Don't forget Tricia on the radio tonight - link above in the sticky !

[SeriouslySearching]

Almost time for Tricia!! Please join us in listening to her interview about this case and many others! www.kdka.com

[The Saint]

Brad was to get 9 of the paintings, Nancy was to get 7. Perhaps Brad liked paintings more than Nancy.

do you think that all the paintings totaled $8,000 or that one painting really cost $8,000?

[The Saint]

Almost time for Tricia!! Please join us in listening to her interview about this case and many others! www.kdka.com (http://www.kdka.com)


i don't see where to click to find the interview

[SeriouslySearching]

If you go to the site...click on Life Lounge or search it. Then there is a live link on that page. :) www.kdka.com

[JBean]

i don't see where to click to find the interview
http://www.kdkaradio.com/

just click *listen*

[The Saint]

http://www.kdkaradio.com/pages/92832.php

[Star12]

do you think that all the paintings totaled $8,000 or that one painting really cost $8,000?

good point. I have never heard of those artists. 16 paintings x $8,000 = $128,000. Which is ridiculously stupid. My personal opinion would be a total of $8,000. $500 per sounds more reasonable.

But still, that's an awfully lot of paintings. Sorry, but that house just doesn't look big enough to support that many paintings.

$128,000, I could buy a condo.

[MoonFlwr]

http://www.kdkaradio.com/pages/92832.php

Listening right now. Is that Tricia?

[SleuthyGal]

Listening right now. Is that Tricia?

It is indeed! Tricia is on by phone.

[LivinginNC]

As I listen to the radio cast on KDKARadio a question comes to mind. I assume all of the computers were confiscated out of the Cooper's home as a part of the Search Warrant. If so, how would Brad be able monitor this webslueths website? I would guess that the lawyers are actively looking, but would Brad have his computers back yet to do so? Just curious.

[MoonFlwr]

Are you guys hearing momto3kids!?

[SleuthyGal]

YESSSS!!

She is so awesome!!

She is telling us the Brad went back to Harris Teeter 'demanding' his transactions for that Saturday (transactions recorded on his Vic card).

[MoonFlwr]

YESSSS!!

She is so awesome!!

She is telling us the Brad went back to Harris Teeter 'demanding' his transactions for that Saturday (transactions recorded on his Vic card).

Yeah. In the call to the radio, they were trying to figure out why he'd want that.

[MoonFlwr]

As I listen to the radio cast on KDKARadio a question comes to mind. I assume all of the computers were confiscated out of the Cooper's home as a part of the Search Warrant. If so, how would Brad be able monitor this webslueths website? I would guess that the lawyers are actively looking, but would Brad have his computers back yet to do so? Just curious.

Hi :)

Good questions.

Are you new around here? If so,

:Welcome-12-june:

[The Saint]

did the coopers have dogs?

where were they?
don't women jog with their dogs?

excerpt:
There are so many stories and not enough space here – the cartwheels we did in Nancy’s dining & living room late one night (she didn’t have furniture at the time), when she got her dogs, talking about her interest in Art History, fixing salmon on the grill and others.

http://nancycooper.blogspot.com/2008/07/tragic-news.html

[The Saint]

As I listen to the radio cast on KDKARadio a question comes to mind. I assume all of the computers were confiscated out of the Cooper's home as a part of the Search Warrant. If so, how would Brad be able monitor this webslueths website? I would guess that the lawyers are actively looking, but would Brad have his computers back yet to do so? Just curious.

brad would borrow scott's, another friend's or most probably buy a new one.
he has to help plan his defense.

and he's patiently s waiting for Bob&Bob to upload his
"Spreadsheet Analyzation of Affadavits." (sic)

[SueY]

did the coopers have dogs?
where were they?
don't women jog with their dogs?
excerpt:
There are so many stories and not enough space here – the cartwheels we did in Nancy’s dining & living room late one night (she didn’t have furniture at the time), when she got her dogs, talking about her interest in Art History, fixing salmon on the grill and others.
http://nancycooper.blogspot.com/2008/07/tragic-news.html
They had dogs, but rehomed them because one of the daughters was allergic. That Nancy's sister Krista, and/or Nancy's mom and dad, had dogs was a concern to Brad in his rebuttal to the temporary custody. The Lister and Rentz families have to keep the children away from the dogs.

[Daphne69]

Just caught up on this thread and wanted to post a few clarifying things concerning Interact. I worked there a few years ago. My info is current as of 2000.

Interact is a service for men or women who are survivors of rape or domestic violence. They do not work directly with children unless they are also working with the survivor (.i.e., Mom or Dad).

They can provide services other than shelter. They offer counseling, court advocacy, help finding the necessities such as travel and food, and referrals for other agencies.

A woman (or man) does not have to have already left the abusive partner in order to qualify for services.

Hospital employees or law enforcement officials may contact Interacy if they feel someone may benefit from their services, but the person has to consent to those services. Interact doesn't work with anyone who doesn't actively accept their services.

Interact's services are free, but that doesn't mean they are for low-income people. People at all SEC levels use their services. (As an aside, you'd be surprised how many "well-off" women don't have the financial resources to leave,esp. if children are involved.)

I can't verify that the range of services hasn't broadened since then, but I visited friends who still work there about a month ago and they didn't mention anything specific about new services.

Hope that helps your sleuthing.

Daphne

PS That was what made me ask about the subpoena, RC. Seems like someone may know that NC had been in contact with them.

[The Saint]

good point. I have never heard of those artists. 16 paintings x $8,000 = $128,000. Which is ridiculously stupid. My personal opinion would be a total of $8,000. $500 per sounds more reasonable.

But still, that's an awfully lot of paintings. Sorry, but that house just doesn't look big enough to support that many paintings.

$128,000, I could buy a condo.

where are the artists listed? probably just one painting was $8,000 and not all of them.

some people buy paintings as an investsment.

[The Saint]

They had dogs, but rehomed them because one of the daughters was allergic. That Nancy's sister Krista, and/or Nancy's mom and dad, had dogs was a concern to Brad in his rebuttal to the temporary custody. The Lister and Rentz families have to keep the children away from the dogs.

that's right, thanks. research has now shown that many people with allergies have them because they didn't have pets as children. there is a school of thought that a child will outgrow pet allergies if pets remain in the home.

[raisincharlie]

Just caught up on this thread and wanted to post a few clarifying things concerning Interact. I worked there a few years ago. My info is current as of 2000.

Interact is a service for men or women who are survivors of rape or domestic violence. They do not work directly with children unless they are also working with the survivor (.i.e., Mom or Dad).

They can provide services other than shelter. They offer counseling, court advocacy, help finding the necessities such as travel and food, and referrals for other agencies.

A woman (or man) does not have to have already left the abusive partner in order to qualify for services.

Hospital employees or law enforcement officials may contact Interacy if they feel someone may benefit from their services, but the person has to consent to those services. Interact doesn't work with anyone who doesn't actively accept their services.

Interact's services are free, but that doesn't mean they are for low-income people. People at all SEC levels use their services. (As an aside, you'd be surprised how many "well-off" women don't have the financial resources to leave,esp. if children are involved.)

I can't verify that the range of services hasn't broadened since then, but I visited friends who still work there about a month ago and they didn't mention anything specific about new services.

Hope that helps your sleuthing.

Daphne

PS That was what made me ask about the subpoena, RC. Seems like someone may know that NC had been in contact with them.


Thanks Daphne - appreciate the info very much.

[The Saint]

YESSSS!!

She is so awesome!!

She is telling us the Brad went back to Harris Teeter 'demanding' his transactions for that Saturday (transactions recorded on his Vic card).


what is a Vic card?

[SleuthyGal]

what is a Vic card?

It's Harris Teeter's branded consumer purchase card--so a shopper can get specials/discounts and other promotional deals. The card tracks each user's purchases and the store gets data on their consumers' spending habits (all the grocery stores use their own consumer loyalty type card for the same purpose).

[The Saint]

Just caught up on this thread and wanted to post a few clarifying things concerning Interact. I worked there a few years ago. My info is current as of 2000.

Interact is a service for men or women who are survivors of rape or domestic violence. They do not work directly with children unless they are also working with the survivor (.i.e., Mom or Dad).

They can provide services other than shelter. They offer counseling, court advocacy, help finding the necessities such as travel and food, and referrals for other agencies.

A woman (or man) does not have to have already left the abusive partner in order to qualify for services.

(snipped)
Daphne

PS That was what made me ask about the subpoena, RC. Seems like someone may know that NC had been in contact with them.


i wonder if Interact came forward with information relevant to the murder, just like michelle young's therapist.


could nancy have gone to Interact shortly before her murder and said that she felt that brad was going to kill her ? Or said that he had raped her, had attempted to rape her, or that she was afraid he was going to rape her?

she slept in the room with the girls and the door locked/barred.

[The Saint]

could the third SW have been for nancy's file at Interact?

[SeriouslySearching]

good point. I have never heard of those artists. 16 paintings x $8,000 = $128,000. Which is ridiculously stupid. My personal opinion would be a total of $8,000. $500 per sounds more reasonable.

But still, that's an awfully lot of paintings. Sorry, but that house just doesn't look big enough to support that many paintings.

$128,000, I could buy a condo.I would agree with Saint in saying that fine art is an investment. It isn't "ridiculously stupid". It is a solid investment for the most part. Your condo stands a better chance of losing money than a fine painting. The size of a painting isn't relevant and their house probably could have handled many more. Don't dis on Art! :)

[SleuthyGal]

Since the money came from Brad and Brad controlled the money, then the decision to purchase paintings (or not) were fully within his control. So I discount any assertion he made (or might make) that Nancy is the one who wanted artwork. That may be true, but he ultimately agreed to purchase it.

[SleuthyGal]

Regarding the purchase of the detergent: no matter what time the purchase was made it still raises a flag.

I was talking to my 82 yr old father tonight in FL and told him about my 'sleuthy' day. I've never discussed any crime with him before and he certainly isn't interested in true crime now. You could not find a more disinterested person. But he listened to me for a little bit. I told him the husband went to the store early morning (purchasing laundry detergent as late as 6:15am on Saturday morning and made a 2nd trip back to the store for juice and milk) and how that was an interesting point for so many folks and for me particularly because I couldn't understand WHAT was so important to be laundered that it simply could NOT wait. He made this little scoffing/snorting sound and said "OH now that is very suspicious. I don't know any man who would find it necessary to worry about laundry, let alone at 6am, even if the wife made a fuss!"

For my father, who couldn't care less about this type of news (and probably goes to some length to tune out this kind of thing), to actually believe it's a suspicious thing....well...it just cements how absolutely hinky it is that this particular purchase was made AT ALL, AT ANY TIME THAT MORNING (let alone at 6:15am or possibly earlier).

Hinky Dinky Parlez Vous!

[raisincharlie]

Since the money came from Brad and Brad controlled the money, then the decision to purchase paintings (or not) were fully within his control. So I discount any assertion he made (or might make) that Nancy is the one who wanted artwork. That may be true, but he ultimately agreed to purchase it.

You know - that really is the bottom line - Brad agreed to the purchases and not just for artwork. So all his complaining about Nancy spending too much money is pretty much BS in my opinion. Same with the BMW X5 - he makes it sound really horrible - however he did agree to purchase it and he also failed to mention in his affidavit it was not new when they purchased it. NO WHINE

[SleuthyGal]

You know - that really is the bottom line - Brad agreed to the purchases and not just for artwork. So all his complaining about Nancy spending too much money is pretty much BS in my opinion. Same with the BMW X5 - he makes it sound really horrible - however he did agree to purchase it and he also failed to mention in his affidavit it was not new when they purchased it. NO WHINE

EGGSZACTLY! S/He who has the gold makes the rules! The rest is simply negotiation, and if he acquiesced on an item, even if the purchase was initiated by his wife, and he later regretted it, he has only himself to blame. He had full control of the money (and certainly used that control as it suited him).

[momto3kids]

YESSSS!!

She is so awesome!!

She is telling us the Brad went back to Harris Teeter 'demanding' his transactions for that Saturday (transactions recorded on his Vic card).

SG...this is the reason I didn't attend today with you all. I knew this info about HT and had to decide about disclosing it. I knew I would tell you all if I came today. I just had to be sure I wanted to disclose it or not.

I had no idea about the interview until 8:59 tonight when I logged on. Once I heard Tricia on there and the discussion ....I decided to do it on the air and not in the forum.

[SleuthyGal]

SG...this is the reason I didn't attend today with you all. I knew this info about HT and had to decide about disclosing it. I knew I would tell you all if I came today. I just had to be sure I wanted to disclose it or not.

I had no idea about the interview until 8:59 tonight when I logged on. Once I heard Tricia on there and the discussion ....I decided to do it on the air and not in the forum.

Aha! Interesting! Well I totally understand. It's a tough decision.

You know what's really strange? When I was shopping at HT today I was at the end near the milk and I looked back down the aisle and then I noticed the sitting area on the 2nd level. I watched for a moment and saw someone emptying a wastebasket up there. And I wondered if that was an area just for employees to hang out or if customers could go up there or what?

And then to hear you say on the radio that this is where Brad was taken to meet with store mgmt about getting his Vic card itemized list...well it was just a total coincidence since I was just over there today! :eek:

[The Saint]

SG...this is the reason I didn't attend today with you all. I knew this info about HT and had to decide about disclosing it. I knew I would tell you all if I came today. I just had to be sure I wanted to disclose it or not.

I had no idea about the interview until 8:59 tonight when I logged on. Once I heard Tricia on there and the discussion ....I decided to do it on the air and not in the forum.


i think that you did well.

[SleuthyGal]

Putting myself in Brad's position for a moment: if I were him I too would want to know what information HT might have concerning my purchases for that morning/day.

He KNOWS he has a problem and he's trying to determine just how big of a problem it's going to be. He already went on record for having gone to the store TWICE early that morning.

Now information is out there that he may have been spotted even earlier than what he said...and that would be a HUGE problem! 6:15am is bad enough, but earlier? Oh man.

Obviously he's not going to ask the management directly for any videotape that might exist of him...but he needs to assess how bad this little bit of info is...so gathering receipts and seeing what the store has in their db is one way to get some info on that. He can use the excuse that he's "trying to put together a better timeline of his activities that morning for LE" and it could fly. Maybe. Possibly. Well, not with me, but you know...

He fully well knows what time he went to the store and he knows what he purchased. But what's in those pesky records--the ones LE can get at? Hmmmmm....

[The Saint]

aren't milk and juice stereotypical items that someone would think a wife would ask for?

he forgot the bread.

wouldn't a more likely emergency run be for things like diapers, coffee, cereal or toilet paper?

[jilly]

Exactly. And it might have ended w/ the same agreement reached at the hearing on 7/25 if he had been notified and attended the original hearing. It's not like they didn't know where he was to notify him of the hearing. The police were watching his every move and he'd been making plans w/ her family during the day.

Hi carolinalady! - Say the grandparents had taken the route of filing an application for custody and serving Brad with notice of hearing which I believe is a minimum of 2 days notice. (Keep in mind the basis of this ex parte application was that Brad was mentally unstable.) Suppose he gets served and freaks out because these grandparents want his girls. Worse case scenerio - he does harm to the girls. The grandparents did not want to take this risk obviously and the Judge erred on the side of caution and issued a temporary custody order, a copy of which was served on him with a notice of hearing for July 25.

Maybe he would have consented but maybe not either. The Judge took the best interests of the children into consideration when he made this temporary order.

[The Saint]

Putting myself in Brad's position for a moment: if I were him I too would want to know what information HT might have concerning my purchases for that morning/day.

He KNOWS he has a problem and he's trying to determine just how big of a problem it's going to be. He already went on record for having gone to the store TWICE early that morning.

Now information is out there that he may have been spotted even earlier than what he said...and that would be a HUGE problem! 6:15am is bad enough, but earlier? Oh man.

Obviously he's not going to ask the management directly for any videotape that might exist of him...but he needs to assess how bad this little bit of info is...so gathering receipts and seeing what the store has in their db is one way to get some info on that. He can use the excuse that he's "trying to put together a better timeline of his activities that morning for LE" and it could fly. Maybe. Possibly. Well, not with me, but you know...

He fully well knows what time he went to the store and he knows what he purchased. But what's in those pesky records--the ones LE can get at? Hmmmmm....


i agree. he is trying to figure what they know and fashion his alibi around it.

[The Saint]

Hi carolinalady! - Say the grandparents had taken the route of filing an application for custody and serving Brad with notice of hearing which I believe is a minimum of 2 days notice. (Keep in mind the basis of this ex parte application was that Brad was mentally unstable.) Suppose he gets served and freaks out because these grandparents want his girls. Worse case scenerio - he does harm to the girls. The grandparents did not want to take this risk obviously and the Judge erred on the side of caution and issued a temporary custody order, a copy of which was served on him with a notice of hearing for July 25.

Maybe he would have consented but maybe not either. The Judge took the best interests of the children into consideration when he made this temporary order.


i'm sure that they were thinking he would kill the girls and himself

[SleuthyGal]

i'm sure that they were thinking he would kill the girls and himself

If the affidavits are accurate and he did threaten this before, then I certainly don't blame the g-parents for taking this extra precaution.

[jilly]

i'm sure that they were thinking he would kill the girls and himself

Me too. The fact is, imo, that when they made this application, in their minds he had killed their daughter, so I think if I was them, I would have been very worried too.

[momto3kids]

aren't milk and juice stereotypical items that someone would think a wife would ask for?

he forgot the bread.

wouldn't a more likely emergency run be for things like diapers, coffee, cereal or toilet paper?

The mistake he made in my books NO matter what time he states he purchased the detergent is to NOT put more items in the basket...IF HE NEEDED THEM OR NOT! At least he could claim he remembered hearing they needed detergent while he was picking up xyz.

[The Saint]

The mistake he made in my books NO matter what time he states he purchased the detergent is to NOT put more items in the basket...IF HE NEEDED THEM OR NOT! At least he could claim he remembered hearing they needed detergent while he was picking up xyz.

he should have bought tampons to make it look like nancy sent him there
or pepto bismol if she felt sick at the party earlier

[Bob&Bob]

Here's what I'm worried about. If he was going to play tennis
at 9:30 and she left for her run at 7, isn't somebody going to
ask him what he thought when she didn't return so he could go
play tennis?

[SleuthyGal]

he should have bought tampons to make it look like nancy sent him there
or pepto bismol if she felt sick at the party earlier

OMG YES! THAT would have been quite brilliant. What man would purchase tampons or pads without being forced/prompted to? HEH!

Or as I said elsewhere on another thread...stuff to make it look like one of the kids wasn't feeling well. Like regular coke (my mother used this when I was nauseous), some Jello, some tea, some dramamine (my mother's drug of choice, along with coca cola, when she gets nauseous, which she does quite often)...that kind of thing. And then if you throw in some laundry detergent, not as big of a deal, ya know? You could have had a sick kid who threw up all over the place, right?

[jumpstreet]

He fully well knows what time he went to the store and he knows what he purchased. But what's in those pesky records--the ones LE can get at? Hmmmmm....

Maybe I'm missing it, but I'm not sure I understand the point about the VIC records, or (offhand) why he would go back and ask.

Is it because he can't recall whether he used his VIC card at the 4am trip, and he wants to see what they have in the logs? Surely if he was NOT wanting the 4am trip to be "on record", then when making that (speculated) purchase, he wouldn't sweat getting the VIC discount on some 4am covert supplies. [ Otherwise, I gotta say, that's one frugal perp! ]

On the other hand, if the VIC records don't happen to show any 4am purchase, it still wouldn't prove anything (since he (intentionally) may not have used the card at 4am).

Maybe he no longer had any store receipts, and couldn't remember exactly what he purchased and when (for the acknowledged morning trips), so he went to HT and asked them for his VIC records, just so he could prepare his affidavit of last week. That would seem reasonable to me.

[MoonFlwr]

Here's what I'm worried about. If he was going to play tennis
at 9:30 and she left for her run at 7, isn't somebody going to
ask him what he thought when she didn't return so he could go
play tennis?

Good point.
IIRC he alluded, earlier (was it in the affidavit/s?) to the fact that Nancy would often just not return home when expected.
Sounded as if, it was a run-of-the-mill occurence in their household, given the 'brokenness' of their marriage. (The way Brad stated it).

[CyberPro]

It's Harris Teeter's branded consumer purchase card--so a shopper can get specials/discounts and other promotional deals. The card tracks each user's purchases and the store gets data on their consumers' spending habits (all the grocery stores use their own consumer loyalty type card for the same purpose).

Was he seriously stupid enough to want to gain reward points for the supplies he <ALLEGEDLY> used to clean up??

CyberPro

[EntreNous]

Hinky Dinky Parlez Vous!-Sleuthy Gal

Yessss!!! Sleuthy Gal, you just totally gave me my signature!

[jumpstreet]

Here's what I'm worried about. If he was going to play tennis
at 9:30 and she left for her run at 7, isn't somebody going to
ask him what he thought when she didn't return so he could go
play tennis?

I think this is a good point. Unless the tennis plans were "soft" (ie, 'maybe I can play, maybe I can't, I'll call you around 9 to let you know if it's a "go'), then it seems reasonable that when she left for the jog he would have said "hey, try to be back by 9:00 or so since I'm supposed to play tennis".

... and if so, then even if it was "not unusual" for her to have coffee with friends after runs, in this particular case, she would have been expected back sooner.

Maybe the tennis plans were "soft" though... (an earlier poster had a good point that it would be interesting to see what the tennis partner had to say - no doubt LE has consulted with them)

[raisincharlie]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I'm not sure I understand the point about the VIC records, or (offhand) why he would go back and ask.

Is it because he can't recall whether he used his VIC card at the 4am trip, and he wants to see what they have in the logs? Surely if he was NOT wanting the 4am trip to be "on record", then when making that (speculated) purchase, he wouldn't sweat getting the VIC discount on some 4am covert supplies. [ Otherwise, I gotta say, that's one frugal perp! ]

On the other hand, if the VIC records don't happen to show any 4am purchase, it still wouldn't prove anything (since he (intentionally) may not have used the card at 4am).

Maybe he no longer had any store receipts, and couldn't remember exactly what he purchased and when (for the acknowledged morning trips), so he went to HT and asked them for his VIC records, just so he could prepare his affidavit of last week. That would seem reasonable to me.

I'm thinking he may have done this before he did his affidavit. He has some very precise statements in there about what time he did what with respect to the store purchases, i.e. he said he purchased the detergent and juice at 6:45 am and went home. I kinda figure he used the data from the receipts to develop this in the affidavit. You gotta admit - he accounted very precisely his movements and times he bought things and what he bought.

[SleuthyGal]

Hinky Dinky Parlez Vous!-Sleuthy Gal

Yessss!!! Sleuthy Gal, you just totally gave me my signature!

I expect royalty payments! A girl's gotta eat (and shopping at Harris Teeter and Whole Foods ain't cheap!) :blowkiss:

[SleuthyGal]

Was he seriously stupid enough to want to gain reward points for the supplies he <ALLEGEDLY> used to clean up??

Hee! Perhaps...... I think this is his roundabout way of trying to ascertain exactly what data HT has on him/his purchases. Maybe the subject of his store visit and 'proving' it came up during this Vic card data expedition. I think he's trying to figure out what they might have on him. That's my gut feeling. Proving what he purchased may well be needed too, but somehow I think it's secondary.

[jumpstreet]

I'm thinking he may have done this before he did his affidavit. He has some very precise statements in there about what time he did what with respect to the store purchases, i.e. he said he purchased the detergent and juice at 6:45 am and went home. I kinda figure he used the data from the receipts to develop this in the affidavit. You gotta admit - he accounted very precisely his movements and times he bought things and what he bought.

Exactly, that would make perfect sense, and be reasonable. (and if there was an earlier trip that he wanted to go unnoticed, presumably, he wouldn't have used the VIC card anyway (unless, like I said, he's more frugal than smart))

[CyberPro]

OMG YES! THAT would have been quite brilliant. What man would willingly purchase tampons or pads? HEH!

<SNIP>



Shyly raising my hand....:rolleyes:

I do most of the grocery shopping, and I have had to pick up those items... You know, since I do not actually use the things, I must say that they have a BEWILDERING ARRAY of options for them... It takes me about 30 minutes just to find the RIGHT KIND... Geez, I do not think buying a new car you have to select from as many options. Regular, wide, super wide, super duper thin, with wings, with daisy patterns, no wings....

CyberPro

[christine2448]

Please continue here. (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2447701#post2447701)