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SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 12:16 PM
First, a heartfelt THANK YOU to Reddress58 for helping to spearhead our get together this morning. She also provided valuable guidance and a tour of the area. I took pictures, which I'll link to when I get them together.

We saw the dump site and it's a very different 'feel' than what pictures can show you. First of all it's small back there. Everything seems so much larger when you look at pics. The dump area is right off the side of the cul de sac turnaround...maybe 10 ft away, and there's a tiny embankment, and if you were walking nearby you might not immediately notice a body since it would be hidden by the embankment. However a dog would easily be attracted to a body there.

Beyond and all around the runoff pond there is *very heavy* tree coverage/brush. My immediate impression is THAT would have been the place to put a body if you wanted to hide your victim cause it is thick and heavily overgrown and I don't think anyone would be found for a long time. My feeling is that this was a quick 'dump' and run. Plus at night/early morning (prior to 6am) it would be pitch black back there--there are no lights so whoever did this likely dumped during that time and they would not have seen the heavy brush beyond, which would have been a more logical place to 'hide' a body.

We drove down Holly Springs Road and there is no way someone would ever choose to go jogging down that road. It is busy/heavily traveled, with no sidewalks at all, and only a few inches to separate you and cars on either side. We did see a few bikers out.

stillblv
08-02-2008, 12:44 PM
First, a heartfelt THANK YOU to Reddress58 for helping to spearhead our get together this morning. She also provided valuable guidance and a tour of the area. I took pictures, which I'll link to when I get them together.

We saw the dump site and it's a very different 'feel' than what pictures can show you. First of all it's small back there. Everything seems so much larger when you look at pics. The dump area is right off the side of the cul de sac turnaround...maybe 10 ft away, and there's a tiny embankment, and if you were walking nearby you might not immediately notice a body since it would be hidden by the embankment. However a dog would easily be attracted to a body there.

Beyond and all around the runoff pond there is *very heavy* tree coverage/brush. My immediate impression is THAT would have been the place to put a body if you wanted to hide your victim cause it is thick and heavily overgrown and I don't think anyone would be found for a long time. My feeling is that this was a quick 'dump' and run. Plus at night/early morning (prior to 6am) it would be pitch black back there--there are no lights so whoever did this likely dumped during that time and they would not have seen the heavy brush beyond, which would have been a more logical place to 'hide' a body.

We drove down Holly Springs Road and there is no way someone would ever choose to go jogging down that road. It is busy/heavily traveled, with no sidewalks at all, and only a few inches to separate you and cars on either side. We did see a few bikers out.


Thanks for the update. That is so cool you all got to meet and do a field trip of the scene. Please do post pics! I wish I could have been there - alas, I am 14 hours away.

CARYISHOME
08-02-2008, 01:24 PM
First, a heartfelt THANK YOU to Reddress58 for helping to spearhead our get together this morning. She also provided valuable guidance and a tour of the area. I took pictures, which I'll link to when I get them together.

We saw the dump site and it's a very different 'feel' than what pictures can show you. First of all it's small back there. Everything seems so much larger when you look at pics. The dump area is right off the side of the cul de sac turnaround...maybe 10 ft away, and there's a tiny embankment, and if you were walking nearby you might not immediately notice a body since it would be hidden by the embankment. However a dog would easily be attracted to a body there.

Beyond and all around the runoff pond there is *very heavy* tree coverage/brush. My immediate impression is THAT would have been the place to put a body if you wanted to hide your victim cause it is thick and heavily overgrown and I don't think anyone would be found for a long time. My feeling is that this was a quick 'dump' and run. Plus at night/early morning (prior to 6am) it would be pitch black back there--there are no lights so whoever did this likely dumped during that time and they would not have seen the heavy brush beyond, which would have been a more logical place to 'hide' a body.

We drove down Holly Springs Road and there is no way someone would ever choose to go jogging down that road. It is busy/heavily traveled, with no sidewalks at all, and only a few inches to separate you and cars on either side. We did see a few bikers out.

It sure would have been pitch black back there - which gets me to thinking whether he really could have driven right back there without his lights on. Wouldn't there be a strong chance he would run off the road? I can see driving down Fielding without lights - not totally convinced about the cul-de-sac. Seems like he would have at least had to have his running lights on.

So, that makes me think even more that he knew where the place was and how the roads turned.

wirehair
08-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Sorry I couldn't make it. The dog threw up all night and we had to go to the vet this morning. Hope to see you next time.

EntreNous
08-02-2008, 01:52 PM
Sorry I couldn't make it. The dog threw up all night and we had to go to the vet this morning. Hope to see you next time.
Since the Java Jive is about 500 mi. away I didn't get in on the meet-up either. I hope it was productive and can't wait to see pix!
Gosh Wirehair, hope your pooch is okay!

reddress58
08-02-2008, 02:00 PM
This morning was an eye-opener. All in attendance agreed that NC would NOT run along Holly Springs Rd. and, therefore, her body was transported to the area where it was found. Also, there is one street light on that particular cul-de-sac, but since there is no development that far back, I doubt it would have been on the wee hours of Friday morning. All in all, a perfect scenerio for dumping a body without being detected. It may have been days before anyone found it if the gentleman walker had not decided to take a LOOONNNGGG walk. It is quite a distance from any completed, occupied homes. Yes, a construction worker could have spotted it soon enough, but no houses have been started or lots cleared on that particular cul-de-sac. Luckily, the man had his dog because if you didn't walk closer to the edge of the pavement, it would have been hard to spot the body from the street. I believe he said the dog drew his attention to walk in that direction.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for coming out and "holding my hand" while visiting the site. We all agreed it would have been pretty eerie to visit alone.

Bob&Bob
08-02-2008, 02:10 PM
For those of you who were there I have a question.

On the Photos:No discussion thread, Post 2, which side
was the body on? The far side by the white stuff? Or the near
side by the black fencing kind of thing?

reddress58
08-02-2008, 02:13 PM
For those of you who were there I have a question.

On the Photos:No discussion thread, Post 2, which side
was the body on? The far side by the white stuff? Or the near
side by the black fencing kind of thing?
Near side...in FRONT of the fencing. (...we're assuming because the ground was trampled with footprints and a bouqoet of dead white roses placed on the ground there.)

Bob&Bob
08-02-2008, 02:14 PM
What's all the white stuff on the other side?

reddress58
08-02-2008, 02:18 PM
What's all the white stuff on the other side?
It has nothing to do with the crime. Some kind of plastic tarp, but it can be found on all the drainage berms in that area of the neighborhood.

Bob&Bob
08-02-2008, 02:23 PM
It has nothing to do with the crime. Some kind of plastic tarp, but it can be found on all the drainage berms in that area of the neighborhood.

Thanks.

Back to that Photo thread Post 2.

In relation to the guy with his back toward us with the
tan hat, where was the body?

reddress58
08-02-2008, 02:36 PM
Thanks.

Back to that Photo thread Post 2.

In relation to the guy with his back toward us with the
tan hat, where was the body?
It's not even in that picture. It was to the left of all those men. (...we're guessing)

jumpstreet
08-02-2008, 02:39 PM
Thanks.

Back to that Photo thread Post 2.

In relation to the guy with his back toward us with the
tan hat, where was the body?

I think the presumed exact spot is not inside the frame of that photo you reference (on the Photos thread). I think it's off to the left.

There are more photos (posted by JTF) [ref NC Thread #11, post #73] where an outline is drawn (by JTF) on one of the photos of the exact (presumed) spot. [ Might be nice to get these copied to the photos thread I suppose for completeness ]

I think think basis for presuming this is the spot is: (a) there were some flowers left at that spot, and (b) sheriff has said that the location was "just off the road".

So - I don't know if it's 100% certain that the spot marked in the photo is the "exact" spot, but it's probably a reasonable conclusion.

For those that were able to go to today (thanks for the info) - did anyone notice any other tributes (notes / flowers / etc) left there (at that same spot, or others?)

Bob&Bob
08-02-2008, 02:40 PM
I think the presumed exact spot is not inside the frame of that photo you reference (on the Photos thread). I think it's off to the left.

There are more photos (posted by JTF) [ref NC Thread #11, post #73] where an outline is drawn (by JTF) on one of the photos of the exact (presumed) spot. [ Might be nice to get these copied to the photos thread I suppose for completeness ]

I think think basis for presuming this is the spot is: (a) there were some flowers left at that spot, and (b) sheriff has said that the location was "just off the road".

So - I don't know if it's 100% certain that the spot marked in the photo is the "exact" spot, but it's probably a reasonable conclusion.

For those that were able to go to today (thanks for the info) - did anyone notice any other tributes (notes / flowers / etc) left there (at that same spot, or others?)

Are there any other houses being built on that street?

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 02:46 PM
Let me ask - because there are floral arrangements at a location, the assumption is that was the location of the body ? How would the person placing the arrangement know that ? Unless it was LE or the man who found the body or the killer- I doubt anyone else knows the spot where Nancy's body came to a rest to be honest. The man in the 911 call says she was in the pond, but then again he saw vultures, which might have been huge crows , or turkey buzzards.

jumpstreet
08-02-2008, 02:52 PM
Let me ask - because there are floral arrangements at a location, the assumption is that was the location of the body ? How would the person placing the arrangement know that ? Unless it was LE or the man who found the body or the killer- I doubt anyone else knows the spot where Nancy's body came to a rest to be honest. The man in the 911 call says she was in the pond, but then again he saw vultures, which might have been huge crows , or turkey buzzards.

It's a good point - my recollection is that the location of the flowers is the primary basis for where JTF outlined the (presumed) exact location in that photo. But yeah, that does assume that someone who left those flowers knew the exact spot.

The location of those flowers is curious in that it isn't just by the road, they do seem to have been left at an intentional spot (but perhaps whoever left them just "guessed"). As you mentioned, it could have been the person who made the discovery - I imagine it was pretty traumatic, and perhaps this was intended to be helpful gesture for some closure - but who knows.

[ It's somewhat why I was asking if there were any other tributes noticed there by those that went today (in the same location, other locations) - just curious ].

Finally, regarding the water, I think we've speculated that the current water level is much lower than what it was at the time of the find. [ Perhaps they drained it some when looking for evidence, perhaps it was higher after some rains ]. So, the exact spot could possibly have been in (or nearly in) the water at the time of discovery, but that spot is dry now.

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 02:56 PM
It's a good point - my recollection is that the location of the flowers is the primary basis for where JTF outlined the (presumed) exact location in that photo. But yeah, that does assume that someone who left those flowers knew the exact spot.

The location of those flowers is curious in that it isn't just by the road, they do seem to have been left at an intentional spot (but perhaps whoever left them just "guessed"). As you mentioned, it could have been the person who made the discovery - I imagine it was pretty traumatic, and perhaps this was intended to be helpful gesture for some closure - but who knows.

[ It's somewhat why I was asking if there were any other tributes noticed there by those that went today (in the same location, other locations) - just curious ].

Finally, regarding the water, I think we've speculated that the current water level is much lower than what it was at the time of the find. [ Perhaps they drained it some when looking for evidence, perhaps it was higher after some rains ]. So, the exact spot could possibly have been in (or nearly in) the water at the time of discovery, but that spot is dry now.


In the sky 5 video - LE is pumping out the pond and shoveling around in the mud.

reddress58
08-02-2008, 03:00 PM
It's a good point - my recollection is that the location of the flowers is the primary basis for where JTF outlined the (presumed) exact location in that photo. But yeah, that does assume that someone who left those flowers knew the exact spot.

The location of those flowers is curious in that it isn't just by the road, they do seem to have been left at an intentional spot (but perhaps whoever left them just "guessed"). As you mentioned, it could have been the person who made the discovery - I imagine it was pretty traumatic, and perhaps this was intended to be helpful gesture for some closure - but who knows.

[ It's somewhat why I was asking if there were any other tributes noticed there by those that went today (in the same location, other locations) - just curious ].

Finally, regarding the water, I think we've speculated that the current water level is much lower than what it was at the time of the find. [ Perhaps they drained it some when looking for evidence, perhaps it was higher after some rains ]. So, the exact spot could possibly have been in (or nearly in) the water at the time of discovery, but that spot is dry now.
From the looks of the pictures, the water was even lower today than picture day. You can see where they have a hose draped over the white plastic, so I'm sure it was drained somewhat. There is a purple wreath stuck in th ground just off the pavement that we saw today. The dead roses are over the embankment and on the ground with many footprints surrounded it. Those footprints had to be made when the ground was wet and soft. They are hardened now. No other areas had vegetation that was trampled...thus our conclusion. Also remember, white roses were Nancy's favorite flowers. Whoever put them there possibly knew that. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect LE to show her parents/Brad where her body was found after they were finished with their crime scene work? Or do they keep that secret also?

jumpstreet
08-02-2008, 03:37 PM
The dead roses are over the embankment and on the ground with many footprints surrounded it. Those footprints had to be made when the ground was wet and soft. They are hardened now. No other areas had vegetation that was trampled...thus our conclusion.

Good point.


Also remember, white roses were Nancy's favorite flowers. Whoever put them there possibly knew that. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect LE to show her parents/Brad where her body was found after they were finished with their crime scene work? Or do they keep that secret also?

Good question.

fran
08-02-2008, 03:41 PM
Thank you for the information.

Glad you all were able to meet up.

fran

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 03:44 PM
From the looks of the pictures, the water was even lower today than picture day. You can see where they have a hose draped over the white plastic, so I'm sure it was drained somewhat. There is a purple wreath stuck in th ground just off the pavement that we saw today. The dead roses are over the embankment and on the ground with many footprints surrounded it. Those footprints had to be made when the ground was wet and soft. They are hardened now. No other areas had vegetation that was trampled...thus our conclusion. Also remember, white roses were Nancy's favorite flowers. Whoever put them there possibly knew that. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect LE to show her parents/Brad where her body was found after they were finished with their crime scene work? Or do they keep that secret also?

I believe LE would show the parents the location if the parents requested it after consultation with a victims advocate. However, LE is not going to provide specifics related to the investigation even to the parents for a variety of reasons. Different story when it goes to trial - very often the DA will share details with the loved ones at that time unless they are to testify. If they will be called to testify, there will be no specifics that could bias their testimony. In this case, I believe it is obvious the parents will be on a witness list.

reddress58
08-02-2008, 04:17 PM
I believe LE would show the parents the location if the parents requested it after consultation with a victims advocate. However, LE is not going to provide specifics related to the investigation even to the parents for a variety of reasons. Different story when it goes to trial - very often the DA will share details with the loved ones at that time unless they are to testify. If they will be called to testify, there will be no specifics that could bias their testimony. In this case, I believe it is obvious the parents will be on a witness list.
Yes, maybe. But we also noted that this particular spot is 1) closest to the pavement where he could simply back up the car. 2) Where someone in a hurry would "naturally" toss a body. It's a bit secluded because its close enough to the side of the embankmenk. I'm not convinced that was on the perp's mind, though. I think she was tossed and landed where she did. As SluethyGal pointed out, there were much better hiding places. This was a rush job.

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 04:24 PM
Photos from our tour this morning:

http://tinyurl.com/6qzlwj

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 04:30 PM
Sorry I couldn't make it. The dog threw up all night and we had to go to the vet this morning. Hope to see you next time.

We sure missed you! I'm so sorry your doggy was sick. I left mine at home as it was just too hot. We'll have to meetup again!

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 04:40 PM
Photos from our tour this morning:

http://tinyurl.com/6qzlwj

Thanks for sharing ! Bet you felt a bit creeped out aye?

One question - the photo of the white tarp area - a gravel pile to the left - do you know what that is on top of the gravel pile? Don't think it is of any import - just wondering.

reddress58
08-02-2008, 04:40 PM
Photos from our tour this morning:

http://tinyurl.com/6qzlwj
Great photos, Sleuthy!! Pretty much nailed all the important areas. Ya'll go to Mom's latest post on the Theories thread and check out her new one....espcecially you folks who went on the tour this morning. Read my response and maybe add your own while the crime area is still fresh in your mind. Ole Momto3 has her thinking cap on! (or a wild imagination, one)

Star12
08-02-2008, 04:42 PM
Of course, none of us knows the exact spot the body was found. All we can do is speculate based on our observations.

The white flowers we saw today at the dump site were also in the photo that JTF posted in #11-4-73. And the red outline he drew in that photo is just about exactly where we thought the body had lain.

A couple of feet off the pavement there is an abrupt dropoff which goes down about 3 feet. Then it's about 10 feet or less to the silt fence. The body would not be visible from the street.

Thanks to everyone involved today for making our meeting possible, for giving us fresh insight and getting a feel for the entire area

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 04:42 PM
We met at Java Jive and the first person I run into is my hairdresser! LOL! I didn't realize that the place I go is the SAME Harris Teeter/Walmart shopping plaza as has been discussed all this time and of course Java Jive is across the way. DOH!

After our tour of the dump site I picked up my car at Java Jive and did a little grocery shopping of my own at HT. I had never been inside this store before. I had no idea how HUGE and NICE it is! I've only been to my hair salon and then over to Walmart, and this is not my usual shopping place since I'm about 5 miles away. I would totally use this store if I lived closer. I'm going to make sure and stop in when I am in the area. Between that HT and Whole Foods I think I can liquidate my savings tout de suite.

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 04:45 PM
Thanks for sharing ! Bet you felt a bit creeped out aye?

One question - the photo of the white tarp area - a gravel pile to the left - do you know what that is on top of the gravel pile? Don't think it is of any import - just wondering.

Believe it or not I was NOT creeped out. I was expecting to feel that way but it certainly helped having 7 other people around! I actually felt 'peaceful' if you can believe that. I said a little prayer for Nancy when I was walking around. It was a very warm morning...prelude to another HOT day in this area.

I have no idea what's on top of the gravel pile. :confused:

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 04:48 PM
Believe it or not I was NOT creeped out. I was expecting to feel that way but it certainly helped having 7 other people around! I actually felt 'peaceful' if you can believe that. I said a little prayer for Nancy when I was walking around. It was a very warm morning...prelude to another HOT day in this area.

I have no idea what's on top of the gravel pile. :confused:

Glad all were okay. Again - thanks very much for the photos.

reddress58
08-02-2008, 04:53 PM
Believe it or not I was NOT creeped out. I was expecting to feel that way but it certainly helped having 7 other people around! I actually felt 'peaceful' if you can believe that. I said a little prayer for Nancy when I was walking around. It was a very warm morning...prelude to another HOT day in this area.

I have no idea what's on top of the gravel pile. :confused:
I think it may be the overflow valve, or whatever you'd call that thing. Where if the water got too high it would go into that hole under the white cap and not flood the road. Is that the thing you're talking about?

reddress58
08-02-2008, 04:55 PM
Ya'll make sure you check out Momto3's new theory on the "THEORIES" thread. Those who went this morning in particular. Check out my response, and then offer your own while it's still fresh in your minds.

reddress58
08-02-2008, 04:56 PM
Ya'll make sure you check out Momto3's new theory on the "THEORIES" thread. Those who went this morning in particular. Check out my response, and then offer your own while it's still fresh in your minds.
Oops. Sorry. Thought I was posting this on the Nancy Cooper thread. Already said this.

CyberPro
08-02-2008, 04:58 PM
I think it may be the overflow valve, or whatever you'd call that thing. Where if the water got too high it would go into that hole under the white cap and not flood the road. Is that the thing you're talking about?

RedDress,

Yep, you are correct, this is a drain. It is atop the pile of dirt and gravel to hold it upright. If there are heavy rains and the level of the water rises to this drain, it is to let the excess water out of the retension pond. This is to prevent the water from rising to the level that it would either collapse or overflow the earthen dam.

Fairly standard in ponds, but if the pond is intended to be permanant, it is of a more substantial nature that this is. If you happened to look on the back side of the earthen dam, you would either see the other end of a pipe, or a small culvert to direct the water to the other side of the dam.

CyberPro

reddress58
08-02-2008, 05:10 PM
RedDress,

Yep, you are correct, this is a drain. It is atop the pile of dirt and gravel to hold it upright. If there are heavy rains and the level of the water rises to this drain, it is to let the excess water out of the retension pond. This is to prevent the water from rising to the level that it would either collapse or overflow the earthen dam.

Fairly standard in ponds, but if the pond is intended to be permanant, it is of a more substantial nature that this is. If you happened to look on the back side of the earthen dam, you would either see the other end of a pipe, or a small culvert to direct the water to the other side of the dam.

CyberPro
...and to add...we drove to the street BEHIND this drainage site, and there was the exact same everything.

Skittles
08-02-2008, 05:18 PM
I agree with the others who were at the site this morning about the most likely location of the body. The N & O said the body was in front of the silt fence, and in many areas the grass/weeds were too tall to have had a body on top of them less than three weeks ago. Also the hardened foot prints are fairly deep around the one spot where the wilted flowers are.

I hope to have pictures up later today. My husband is trying to stitch together a 180 panorama shot together of that side of the cul-de-sac.

momto3kids
08-02-2008, 06:02 PM
Thanks for the photo's SG! I have not been able to bring myself to take photo's yet. I have been 3 times and not walked around either. I go each week just to let NC she is not forgotten.

The flowers must have gotten placed there since last Sunday night, they were't there when I was. I am happy to see someone has done it. Did you all see a hand written note on the ground? Someone had done this and held it down with 2 large stones. It might have gotten blown away with the rain and wind we have had. I didn't read the note so I don't know what it said

Thanks again for the photo's.

Star12
08-02-2008, 06:05 PM
I don't remember seeing any paper at the site, and ther was no note.

Bob&Bob
08-02-2008, 06:32 PM
Are there any other houses being built on that street?

The reason I asked is I've read that there aren't
but when watching this video it was kind of confusing
because you see houses.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/media?id=6267292

Is Brittaby Ct off of Fielding Drive or off of Belmont Forest Way?

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 06:35 PM
Thanks for the photo's SG! I have not been able to bring myself to take photo's yet. I have been 3 times and not walked around either. I go each week just to let NC she is not forgotten.

The flowers must have gotten placed there since last Sunday night, they were't there when I was. I am happy to see someone has done it. Did you all see a hand written note on the ground? Someone had done this and held it down with 2 large stones. It might have gotten blown away with the rain and wind we have had. I didn't read the note so I don't know what it said

Thanks again for the photo's.

Hi Momto3,

Nope, didn't see any note there, though I did see a rock or two. If you ever want to meetup I'm game for a 2nd visit anytime. Then I have a built-in excuse to go shopping at that fabu HT since I'll be so close and all!! I barely made it past the breakfast island and the asian island :)

momto3kids
08-02-2008, 06:57 PM
Hi Momto3,

Nope, didn't see any note there, though I did see a rock or two. If you ever want to meetup I'm game for a 2nd visit anytime. Then I have a built-in excuse to go shopping at that fabu HT since I'll be so close and all!! I barely made it past the breakfast island and the asian island :)

Thanks SG for the offer...

Did you get a strange feeling walking thru HT? I absolutely love HT @ Crescent Commons. There is so much to choose from with all the different bars there, you can get confused. LOL
Were several reps from companies marketing their items.? You can go on a Sat and be full by the time you leave with all the samples they give you.

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 07:00 PM
Did you get a strange feeling walking thru HT? I absolutely love HT @ Crescent Commons. There is so much to choose from with all the different bars there, you can get confused. LOL

Nope the only feeling was awe and feeling overwhelmed at the choices of foodstuffs. My local Kroger is woefully lacking by comparison. Didn't see any reps there.

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 07:07 PM
Probably the 'weirdest' part for me was first walking into Java Jive and looking for fellow 'sleuthies'--you know...giving other people that strange look like "are you one of us?"

And THEN immediately running smack dab into my hairstylist who asks, "OMG what are you doing here?" (and I've been remiss in getting my hair cut so I haven't seen her for a couple months anyway).

{ pause for dumb look }

"uhhh meeting some folks and gettin' some coffee! :blush:

The drive through the Lochmere neighborhood was also a bit surreal for me since I never go in there. I played golf once (very badly, I might add) at the Lochmere club, but otherwise I just pay no attention to this area outside of making a special run to Whole Foods (as that's the only one in Cary), or going to my hair salon or Walmart in Crescent Corners.

So to be back in the 'hood, but for completely different reasons, yes it was very surreal for me. Plus the Java Jive coffee was soooooo strong I was jumping off the walls and that was after pouring a lot of milk and putting 3 sweet 'n lows in it. :bounce:

Star12
08-02-2008, 07:19 PM
Nah, SG, I betcha you "bounce" without the high test!

But thanks for the heads up about the HT. I'm hungry, and you are makikng me drool. An ASIAN bar? Oh, my! Wish now that I had gone there, too.

There's also a scrumptious food bar at Whole Foods, across the street.

Did you all notice the smoothies at Java Jive were "Bellas"?

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 07:43 PM
Nah, SG, I betcha you "bounce" without the high test!

LOL I have been called perky before. :smiliecup: ... or are you referring to something else? :blush:


But thanks for the heads up about the HT. I'm hungry, and you are making me drool. An ASIAN bar? Oh, my! Wish now that I had gone there, too.Yeah I'll be back in there for sure!



Did you all notice the smoothies at Java Jive were "Bellas"?I totally missed that!

SusieClue
08-02-2008, 07:49 PM
Believe it or not I was NOT creeped out. I was expecting to feel that way but it certainly helped having 7 other people around! I actually felt 'peaceful' if you can believe that. I said a little prayer for Nancy when I was walking around. It was a very warm morning...prelude to another HOT day in this area.

I have no idea what's on top of the gravel pile. :confused:

THANKS for sharing. I recently moved from the area - or I would have been there...I was on a similar field trip for the Michael Peterson case. It isn't really creepy, but it helps to get a "feel" for the whole thing. I even visited Kathleen's grave and attended court proceedings! It wasn't all that far from my house at the time.

Your eyewitness info and pictures helped to clarify certain things in our minds. Again, thank you.

wirehair
08-02-2008, 08:31 PM
Thanks everyone for the thoughts about my dog. He is drinking water about every 2 hours and he will get to eat tomorrow. I have to get him well quick. He has to show next weekend.

Skittles
08-02-2008, 08:52 PM
More photos of the site from today. The first photo is a stitched panorama view (180 degrees). Zoom in on it and scroll left and right. Each individual photo that makes up the panorama is in the album.

Also there are some of Harris Teeter.

http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/SkittlesView/Cooper%20site/

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 09:00 PM
FANTASTIC Skittles! The panorama is particularly useful so folks can see the layout and desolation of the area.

reddress58
08-02-2008, 09:32 PM
More photos of the site from today. The first photo is a stitched panorama view (180 degrees). Zoom in on it and scroll left and right. Each individual photo that makes up the panorama is in the album.

Also there are some of Harris Teeter.

http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/SkittlesView/Cooper%20site/
Excellent, Skittles!! This along with SleuthyGal's pix give us all a great understanding of the area where Nancy was discovered. Just wanted folks to understand that if you are standing on the pavement near or in the middle of the cul-de-sac, you cannot see the area where the wilted roses were left. That is where we're assuming Nancy was found. The dog ran over there causing the walker to follow. Once he got closer to the edge of the pavement, she was visible to him.

jumpstreet
08-02-2008, 09:33 PM
I believe LE would show the parents the location if the parents requested it after consultation with a victims advocate.

Would LE (normally) share with the parents suspected COD or TOD or any of that info?
How about the husband, would LE also (normally) show a husband a location if requested in a situation like this?

carolinalady
08-02-2008, 09:36 PM
How far was it between the cul-de-sac and the closest house?

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 09:38 PM
Would LE (normally) share with the parents suspected COD or TOD or any of that info?
How about the husband, would LE also (normally) show a husband a location if requested in a situation like this?

Honestly I do not know the answer about how much information relating to COD or TOD would be given out. I would think the COD would be expressed as it really has no evidentiary value - if you know what I mean and not meaning to sound bad. I believe LE would indeed show the husband the same courtesy.

reddress58
08-02-2008, 09:41 PM
How far was it between the cul-de-sac and the closest house?
This is a new section of the subdivision. There are several houses under construction, but occupied homes are probably a 1/4 to 1/2 mile zig zag walk (not as the crow flies). The streets are in a pattern of cul-de-sac fingers. If you look at the overhead photos, you can get a good idea.

carolinalady
08-02-2008, 09:45 PM
Honestly I do not know the answer about how much information relating to COD or TOD would be given out. I would think the COD would be expressed as it really has no evidentiary value - if you know what I mean and not meaning to sound bad. I believe LE would indeed show the husband the same courtesy.

Also isn't Krista husband in Canadian LE? So, maybe he was privy to the info (professional courtesy)?

carolinalady
08-02-2008, 09:47 PM
This is a new section of the subdivision. There are several houses under construction, but occupied homes are probably a 1/4 to 1/2 mile zig zag walk (not as the crow flies). The streets are in a pattern of cul-de-sac fingers. If you look at the overhead photos, you can get a good idea.

Thanks. I was just thinking of her running. I agree that Holly Springs is extremely busy and dangerous and would seriously doubt she would've run there. Sometimes I go up and down streets in a relatively safe neighborhood just to get my distance in (including undeveloped cul-de-sacs). Plus, I'm nosey like that and what to know what lots have sold and what not.

Thanks again for the info.

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 09:48 PM
Also isn't Krista husband in Canadian LE? So, maybe he was privy to the info (professional courtesy)?

I don't know that professional courtesy weighs much when the victim is related to the LE officer - most likely no additional info was provided beyond that shared with the family. However, he would, based on his experience, be able to read the cop speak better than most.

SleuthyGal
08-02-2008, 09:51 PM
I was thinking about this earlier today...it really is kind of divine intervention that her body was found so quickly, considering where she was dumped. It's not an area that would attract most people...not even runners. It's kind of isolated and aside from some cut roads there's nothing back there. I guess if you were looking at a future homesite then you might go back there but nothing is marked in the particular cul-de-sac where Nancy was found (although the next one over has sold lots already).

raisincharlie
08-02-2008, 09:54 PM
Yes, maybe. But we also noted that this particular spot is 1) closest to the pavement where he could simply back up the car. 2) Where someone in a hurry would "naturally" toss a body. It's a bit secluded because its close enough to the side of the embankmenk. I'm not convinced that was on the perp's mind, though. I think she was tossed and landed where she did. As SluethyGal pointed out, there were much better hiding places. This was a rush job.

You are my poster of the night Reddress. I also went back and read some things and found an interesting article at WRAL. The article indicated that Sheriff Donnie Harrison indicated the body was indeed laying in the dirt. Cary PD reported the body as being in the pond. So I think one must go with the agency that actually recovered the body which would be WCSO under Sheriff Harrison.

So my apology for questioning - I think you all are correct in your theories of where Nancy was found.

Bob&Bob
08-02-2008, 11:52 PM
Also isn't Krista husband in Canadian LE? So, maybe he was privy to the info (professional courtesy)?

He works for a beer brewery.

Jess
08-03-2008, 12:06 AM
It is Nancy's brother who is a constable in the Edmonton Police Department.

MoonFlwr
08-03-2008, 07:05 AM
Photos from our tour this morning:

http://tinyurl.com/6qzlwj

Wow! Thanks for the pictures!

I am glad you guys managed to get together!

Seeing the dump site and, especially the dried, dead roses, made me want to howl. :scream:

MoonFlwr
08-03-2008, 07:22 AM
Having seen more pics of the site, it seems crazy that the person who dumped Nancy's body did not take advantage of the dense vegetation in the area.

Maybe the murderer didn't want to go walking and leaving clues, DNA etc.

mahmoo
08-03-2008, 08:24 AM
Thanks for the pics ya'll !!!

They gave me a better feel for how isolated that area is. Also, could better see how the land sloped down on the cul-de-sac......couldn't see the slope from the pics media had released.

Makes me think the murderer was not familiar with the area AND went while it was dark and didn't realize (or couldn't see) all the vegetation right nearby which would have been a more obscure place to leave her body.

Question......from where you park on the hard surface......about how many steps would it take to get to where ya'll think the body was located?

Again....thanks for the pics......great job!!!

Skittles
08-03-2008, 08:52 AM
The reason I asked is I've read that there aren't
but when watching this video it was kind of confusing
because you see houses.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/media?id=6267292

Is Brittaby Ct off of Fielding Drive or off of Belmont Forest Way?

Bob, was reading this thread again and didn't see your questions answered. The homes under construction at the beginning of that video are not on Brittaby or the street next to it. There are not even lots marked on Brittaby. Not sure why they are showing that street at all, unless they mistakenly thought that pond was the one.


To get to Brittaby from Fielding, you drive past Belmont Forest Way, then take a right on "some street" then a left on "another street" then right onto Brittaby. On this picture look back down Brittaby through trees to the big pile of dirt. Fielding is on the far side of the that pile. You can just see a house under construction at the left edge of it.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/SkittlesView/Cooper%20site/PDRM0629.jpg

EntreNous
08-03-2008, 12:09 PM
Can I ask a stupid question?

Why are there no curbs? I know here, in any neighborhood/subdivision, no matter if the planned houses are 1000 sq. ft. or up to 10,000+ sq. ft. they always pour the curbs first, then the pavement for the street.

To me, this looks more like an access road, not a residential street/cul-de-sac.

ncnative
08-03-2008, 01:40 PM
The question was: Why are there no curbs?

Lots of neighborhoods here in Cary have no curbs. Instead, we have swales that lead to a square concrete slab, under which lies a storm drain. The storm drain pipe is a concrete pipe, very large, called a culvert, that leads under the ground and empties into a greenway or flood plain.

HERE'S MY IDEA OF WHY THE KILLER DUMPED NANCY's BODY closer to the road:
HE WANTED IT TO LOOK LIKE SHE'D BEEN JOGGING and maybe she just fell near the road.

I know. I'm not a LE agent for sure!

mollymalone
08-03-2008, 01:59 PM
I think the killer WANTED Nancy to be found, but not right away.

If it was Brad, if her body isn't found he has to wait for years before she can be declared legally dead.

Has anyone mentioned any insurance policies existing on Nancy with Brad being the beneficiary? If the children are the beneficiaries, Brad would still be their guardian and presumably administer the money, thus having use of it.

If she hadn't been found so soon Brad could have had time to concoct some other scenario such as "she left me and the kids" "I don't know where she is" etc..

Brad might be a smart person, but that doesn't preclude him killing her on the spur of the moment and then being in a panic and not thinking things through thoroughly, hence the phone and id left behind when jogging story.

ncnative
08-03-2008, 10:23 PM
Entre, the reason the dump area's street looks like an access road to you is because the area is in the process of being developed. It will be a neighborhood and this road is one of the cul-de-sac residential streets.

I live in Nancy Cooper's development, and the dump site development is on the other side of us, across Holly Springs Road.

EntreNous
08-03-2008, 10:54 PM
The question was: Why are there no curbs?

Lots of neighborhoods here in Cary have no curbs. Instead, we have swales that lead to a square concrete slab, under which lies a storm drain. The storm drain pipe is a concrete pipe, very large, called a culvert, that leads under the ground and empties into a greenway or flood plain.

HERE'S MY IDEA OF WHY THE KILLER DUMPED NANCY's BODY closer to the road:
HE WANTED IT TO LOOK LIKE SHE'D BEEN JOGGING and maybe she just fell near the road.

I know. I'm not a LE agent for sure!

Thanks for explaining that. I've never lived anywhere but middle TN and I've never seen that in a new neighborhood under contruction.

I know, I don't get around much and when I do it's never out in the suburbs.

I was just trying to get a feel for the area. Everytime I put myself there mentally, I think "access road". Now that I can reason it out, I can drop that notion. Thanks again!

momto3kids
08-03-2008, 10:55 PM
NC would have been found in a matter of a week or two, if the walker had not found her. IMO The subdivision is active with building going on. When someone comes riding around the subdivision looking at the homes and possible new lots to build on they will certainly look in these cul-de-sacs since they are paved.

Many people ride around on weekends for home ideas, just as we have been doing looking at ideas for an outside sitting and fire area we are doing this fall...where are we looking? The new subdivisions.

IMO it was only only going to be a short time before she was found because she was not in the wooded area.

raisincharlie
08-03-2008, 10:58 PM
NC would have been found in a matter of a week or two, if the walker had not found her. IMO The subdivision is active with building going on. When someone comes riding around the subdivision looking at the homes and possible new lots to build on they will certainly look in these cul-de-sacs since they are paved.

Many people ride around on weekends for home ideas, just as we have been doing looking at ideas for an outside sitting and fire area we are doing this fall...where are we looking? The new subdivisions.

IMO it was only only going to be a short time before she was found because she was not in the wooded area.

Pretty much indicates someone wanted to just be expedient in disposing of Nancy's body and get on with other things.

momto3kids
08-03-2008, 11:10 PM
Pretty much indicates someone wanted to just be expedient in disposing of Nancy's body and get on with other things.

Absolutely. Dump and run it would be, but.......

if the theory I put out yesterday is anywhere close to what occured, it means she crawled to the spot where she finally died. There is plenty of woods right there where no one would hear her cries for help.

If she had straw in her hair when they found her then I feel she was then laid down on the edge of the of slope and pushed rolling down the hill to where her final spot was.

This would be quicker then taking her down the slope.

raisincharlie
08-03-2008, 11:13 PM
Absolutely. Dump and run it would be, but.......

if the theory I put out yesterday is anywhere close to what occured, it means she crawled to the spot where she finally died. There is plenty of woods right there where no one would hear her cries for help.

If she had straw in her hair when they found her then I feel she was then laid down on the edge of the of slope and pushed rolling down the hill to where her final spot was.

This would be quicker then taking her down the slope.

Lesser possiblity of leaving evidence as well, such as foot prints or tire tracks.

EntreNous
08-03-2008, 11:22 PM
Maybe, in the killer's mind, he had to dump the body in a hurry and was only intended as a temporary place to leave it until he could return and move it.

The dump site is convenient in location because it's close by and yet it's isolated enough that he thought it was likely he could return later to bury her. Possibly in the wooded area, possibly somewhere else more remote.

If BC is the killer it explains why the body was found where it was in a way. He couldn't get back to it because he was being tailed 24/7.

I really don't think he intended for the body to be found so quickly. I'd think the killer would prefer that if the body were found eventually that it would be much more decomposed, to destroy as much evidence as possible. Logically, there's already activity enough in this spot to assume that it would only be a matter of days, weeks at best, before the discovery is made at this site. You can see gravel mounds, etc. very nearby so there is activity in the area.

I'm thinking this dump was done in a rush but perhaps more importantly with intentions of coming back.

SusieClue
08-03-2008, 11:30 PM
Imagine for a moment, how dark it was - considering the killer kept his headlights off. How scary. How sinister. It makes logical sense that she would be dumped where she was...at night. quick fix...may have intended to come back for a better stage. jmho.

raisincharlie
08-03-2008, 11:34 PM
Imagine for a moment, how dark it was - considering the killer kept his headlights off. How scary. How sinister. It makes logical sense that she would be dumped where she was...at night. quick fix...may have intended to come back for a better stage. jmho.

I'm still undecided as to what time Nancy's body was dumped there. I keep looking at that picture of the SUV - a silver color, and thinking about sunrise being at 6:08 am that day. A silver SUV would be very unnoticable just before dawn, yet there would be enough light to not require headlights at all. Then there is someone's refusal to JA to watch the kids because he was loading them in the car to go look - look, hmmmm. I can't make up my mind.

SleuthyGal
08-03-2008, 11:38 PM
My impression when I viewed the dump area is that:

1. This was a quick 'dump and run.'
2. There are absolutely no lights back there so he wouldn't have seen the foliage in detail in which to better 'hide' her. My impression in looking around is that he thought this would be isolated 'enough.'
3. I do not believe he intended for her to be found quickly--if that were the case he could have dropped her body much closer to the developments that are already built on Fielding. She was wayyyyy in the back...lots have not been sold there yet. It's extremely isolated.
4. I believe it was divine intervention that a jogger just happened to go down that particular new subdivision cut that day.
5. I do not believe he intended or planned to ever come back to that dump site and certainly would not attempt to move her (decomposing) body to a 'better' location. I think he thought this was good and isolated and she would not be found anytime soon. And it *is* isolated.
6. I think she was dumped there around 4am that Sat. morning and then he went to HT (IF the time of his first HT visit is verified to be 4:20am). I think it was absolutely pitch black out when he did the dump, which is why she was left so close to the road and not carried 10 additional ft to be hidden in the thicket of shrubs & trees and grasses.

EntreNous
08-04-2008, 12:21 AM
See, SG, I have to disagree with #5. I don't think it's that isolated and her body was totally out in the open. As I said earlier, it would only be a matter of days or weeks before it was discovered. There are gravel mounds in sight, it's already been paved.

I do think it was a quick dump and run but I think he initially intended to go back and move the body. That's exactly what happened in the Perry March case. He did a quick dump. Lucky for him no one found her body. He waited until the police cooled off and went back and moved her body to a new location, much more remote. If his father hadn't turned on him nobody would have ever known.

I think to leave the body out in the open like that with no plans of moving it, under no cover whatsoever would be dumb. A dog could have found it easily. In fact a dog did find it. I don't think BC is dumb.

SleuthyGal
08-04-2008, 05:44 PM
See, SG, I have to disagree with #5.
I do think it was a quick dump and run but I think he initially intended to go back and move the body. That's exactly what happened in the Perry March case. He did a quick dump. Lucky for him no one found her body. He waited until the police cooled off and went back and moved her body to a new location, much more remote.

I don't reasonably see how he could deal with a decomposing corpse by himself, in such a way as to not inadvertently leave forensic evidence all over himself, his vehicle, his clothes, etc. Even if he used multiple trash bags, etc. Her body would have attracted bugs, and her corpse would start to liquefy from the inside out during the decomp process, her body would bloat and tears would appear in the skin, allowing fluids to ooze out, and her skin and hair would be sloughing off. (sorry for the absolute grossness of this discussion, but that's what would be happening that he'd have to contend with)...unless his plan was to either get back to the site to move her *immediately* before decomp advanced past rigor mortis, within 12-24 hrs, or else wait for her to completely decompose down to just bones (which could take several weeks). But that in between stage, from 24 hrs post mortem in hot weather to maybe 6-8 weeks...I can't imagine him wanting to be anywhere nearby or being able to deal with the mess and odor that a decomposing body becomes in those various stages. :eek: Maybe he thought

1. No one would notice her missing for at least a couple days and/or
2. No one would find her even if they noticed her misssing.

But even if #1 above occurred, what would he have done with his children in the meantime? He'd be leaving them alone again to go move the body. And if that body was anywhere in his vehicle after the first 12 - 18 hrs, there would likely be an odor that would be obvious and would be easily detected.

FullDisclosure
08-04-2008, 06:10 PM
My impression when I viewed the dump area is that:

1. This was a quick 'dump and run.'
2. There are absolutely no lights back there so he wouldn't have seen the foliage in detail in which to better 'hide' her. My impression in looking around is that he thought this would be isolated 'enough.'
3. I do not believe he intended for her to be found quickly--if that were the case he could have dropped her body much closer to the developments that are already built on Fielding. She was wayyyyy in the back...lots have not been sold there yet. It's extremely isolated.
4. I believe it was divine intervention that a jogger just happened to go down that particular new subdivision cut that day.
5. I do not believe he intended or planned to ever come back to that dump site and certainly would not attempt to move her (decomposing) body to a 'better' location. I think he thought this was good and isolated and she would not be found anytime soon. And it *is* isolated.
6. I think she was dumped there around 4am that Sat. morning and then he went to HT (IF the time of his first HT visit is verified to be 4:20am). I think it was absolutely pitch black out when he did the dump, which is why she was left so close to the road and not carried 10 additional ft to be hidden in the thicket of shrubs & trees and grasses.


http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/SkittlesView/Cooper%20site/?action=view&current=CooperSitePanorama-1.jpg

Credit for the photo goes to Skittles--I just linked to it...but notice that there is a street lamp on the right hand side if you scroll over; it's there in the cul de sac, not too far from the dump site. So it probably wasn't completely dark. (see #2, above)

I do agree with SG, however, that the person who left Nancy there did not plan to go back and move her body.

SleuthyGal
08-04-2008, 06:16 PM
http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/SkittlesView/Cooper%20site/?action=view&current=CooperSitePanorama-1.jpg

Credit for the photo goes to Skittles--I just linked to it...but notice that there is a street lamp on the right hand side if you scroll over; it's there in the cul de sac, not too far from the dump site

Yeah we didn't know if that streetlight was operational yet (or was on in the evenings). There was one further down toward the houses that *was* on when we drove by. If someone would like to take a ride out there to the dump site when it's nighttime and see if that light comes on, I'd sure appreciate it, as would your fellow sleuthies! I'm too :chicken: to do it myself!

reddress58
08-04-2008, 06:19 PM
Yeah we didn't know if that streetlight was operational yet (or was on in the evenings). There was one further down toward the houses that *was* on when we drove by. If someone would like to take a ride out there to the dump site when it's nighttime and see if that light comes on, I'd sure appreciate it, as would your fellow sleuthies! I'm too :chicken: to do it myself!
Let's just call Toll Brothers and ask them! They are the developers.

Skittles
08-04-2008, 08:26 PM
Let's just call Toll Brothers and ask them! They are the developers.

Yuh, I'm sure that would go over well! I'm hoping to go back with my husband (no way am I going by myself) to see what the light is like in the early AM (adjusting for the time difference for sunrise).

concernedperson
08-04-2008, 08:42 PM
I think it is fairly simple. He was saying that she went for a run and no one knew exactly where she would run. He didn't want obvious contamination after the body starts to decompose so he dumped her at the first available place. He had 2 days before the body was discovered so that much worked for him. Then, the temperature had a placement in the condition and anything he thought to use before placement. The rest of the time was spent taking care of the homefront and getting rid of evidence there.

Of course, this is MO.

wirehair
08-04-2008, 09:33 PM
I believe the area is very isolated. The roads may be paved but not grading has been done on the lots. That section does not have lots for sale yet according to another post. I imagine that no matter how logical you are when you are calm; killing someone would make your thoughts race. Also, with all of the underbrush, water etc.; chances of finding a poisonous snake could be high. If he's a "city dude", he probaly didn't leave the pavement. I have an 80 pound dog and I wouldn't walk back there in the daylight, much less at 4 something. Even most people that stay up and watch tv late at night usually fall asleep by 2 or so. I heard somewhere that 3-4 range is prime time for committing crime. I went out at 3 am the other morning on Ten Ten and there was still traffic on the road. Young people stay out much later.

reddress58
08-04-2008, 09:51 PM
"Also, with all of the underbrush, water etc.; chances of finding a poisonous snake could be high. If he's a "city dude", he probaly didn't leave the pavement."


Wirehair: YOU JUST CRACKED ME UP!!:rotfl:

EntreNous
08-04-2008, 10:29 PM
I don't reasonably see how he could deal with a decomposing corpse by himself, in such a way as to not inadvertently leave forensic evidence all over himself, his vehicle, his clothes, etc. Even if he used multiple trash bags, etc. Her body would have attracted bugs, and her corpse would start to liquefy from the inside out during the decomp process, her body would bloat and tears would appear in the skin, allowing fluids to ooze out, and her skin and hair would be sloughing off. (sorry for the absolute grossness of this discussion, but that's what would be happening that he'd have to contend with)...unless his plan was to either get back to the site to move her *immediately* before decomp advanced past rigor mortis, within 12-24 hrs, or else wait for her to completely decompose down to just bones (which could take several weeks). But that in between stage, from 24 hrs post mortem in hot weather to maybe 6-8 weeks...I can't imagine him wanting to be anywhere nearby or being able to deal with the mess and odor that a decomposing body becomes in those various stages. :eek: Maybe he thought

1. No one would notice her missing for at least a couple days and/or
2. No one would find her even if they noticed her misssing.

But even if #1 above occurred, what would he have done with his children in the meantime? He'd be leaving them alone again to go move the body. And if that body was anywhere in his vehicle after the first 12 - 18 hrs, there would likely be an odor that would be obvious and would be easily detected.

I know, the realities of it are horrific. I just know that's what Perry March did here in Nashville after killing his wife Janet March. He made the quick dump, then later returned and moved her body which was never found. I can't imagine how a person could possibly do that, but I also can't imagine being capable of murdering someone either.

Star12
08-04-2008, 10:51 PM
See, SG, I have to disagree with #5. I don't think it's that isolated and her body was totally out in the open. As I said earlier, it would only be a matter of days or weeks before it was discovered. There are gravel mounds in sight, it's already been paved.

I do think it was a quick dump and run but I think he initially intended to go back and move the body. That's exactly what happened in the Perry March case. He did a quick dump. Lucky for him no one found her body. He waited until the police cooled off and went back and moved her body to a new location, much more remote. If his father hadn't turned on him nobody would have ever known.

I think to leave the body out in the open like that with no plans of moving it, under no cover whatsoever would be dumb. A dog could have found it easily. In fact a dog did find it. I don't think BC is dumb.

That site is extremely isolated. What may not be apparent from the photos is that, while facing the retention pond, the area to the left juts out and you can't see a darn thing beyond it, except for right across the cul-de-sac -- right behind your back.

That gravel mound is across the road from the beginning of this cul-de-sac road, and up the cross road there are no houses for quite a ways.

And even if that lamp were operational, the site still would be deserted, isolated, and very private.

Her body was not out in the open. There is a dropoff about 2 feet from the edge of the pavement, and it drops off about 2 to 2-1/2 feet. That appears to be where the body was left, and the body would not be visible unless you walk over to the ledge and look down.

It's my opinion that the body was well hidden, and that there were no plans to move it.

How very sad, to see this site.

EntreNous
08-04-2008, 11:06 PM
Thanks to both SG & Star12 for the information. You both make vaild points in that it would be a gruesome task and that visually it's very isolated.

I just don't think a dog would have a problem sniffing that out. I was thinking more along the lines of odor, aerial searches and the like. I'm sorry for not being clear on that.

I would think that if a killer didn't want to get caught in their crime they'd want the body to be as decomposed as possible to destroy COD evidence, etc. Why would he put the body where it could be found in just two days?

Look at cases like this and there's a pattern of hiding the bodies very well. While NC's body was certainly out of the way, it could have easily been seen from the air and or smelled by a pet.

SleuthyGal
08-04-2008, 11:24 PM
Why would he put the body where it could be found in just two days?

I don't think her body could have been easily seen from the air, but yes it would attract animal activity and that would be true wherever she was placed unless she was buried 6 ft deep.

I said this before, but I think it was a bit of divine intervention that a jogger and his dog just happened to run back there when they did. Believe me, it's far enough back that there is no real attraction for a walker/runner. Something made that runner go back there--and I'm calling it a bit of divine guidance.

Remember how Laci's and Connor's bodies eventually washed up on the rocks at the Berkeley part of the SF Bay? Do you realize just how VAST the SF Bay is? It is miles and miles wide and deep. What are the odds of that happening? I think there are things that cannot be logically explained, and some of these are things that help perps get caught.

EntreNous
08-04-2008, 11:26 PM
Whoah! I just thought of something else. What if BC wanted to stage it to look random by leaving the body in the open? In enough of the open to be found quickly, within 48 to 72 hrs. He'd have to feel like he'd left her body prisitinely clean to feel that confident to play that hand.

reddress58
08-04-2008, 11:26 PM
That site is extremely isolated. What may not be apparent from the photos is that, while facing the retention pond, the area to the left juts out and you can't see a darn thing beyond it, except for right across the cul-de-sac -- right behind your back.

That gravel mound is across the road from the beginning of this cul-de-sac road, and up the cross road there are no houses for quite a ways.

And even if that lamp were operational, the site still would be deserted, isolated, and very private.

Her body was not out in the open. There is a dropoff about 2 feet from the edge of the pavement, and it drops off about 2 to 2-1/2 feet. That appears to be where the body was left, and the body would not be visible unless you walk over to the ledge and look down.

It's my opinion that the body was well hidden, and that there were no plans to move it.

How very sad, to see this site.
Very, very well described, Star. Nail on the head.

EntreNous
08-05-2008, 08:11 AM
I don't think her body could have been easily seen from the air, but yes it would attract animal activity and that would be true wherever she was placed unless she was buried 6 ft deep.

I said this before, but I think it was a bit of divine intervention that a jogger and his dog just happened to run back there when they did. Believe me, it's far enough back that there is no real attraction for a walker/runner. Something made that runner go back there--and I'm calling it a bit of divine guidance.

Remember how Laci's and Connor's bodies eventually washed up on the rocks at the Berkeley part of the SF Bay? Do you realize just how VAST the SF Bay is? It is miles and miles wide and deep. What are the odds of that happening? I think there are things that cannot be logically explained, and some of these are things that help perps get caught.

I guess it's just something I'd have to see with my own eyes. I thought her body was out in the open and could've been seen from above. It really looks that way from the photos.

And yes, any animal would smell the remains but I was referring to domestic animals that would be drawn to the odor and which typically come with an owner. According to leash laws anyway. Which is exactly what happened.

I'm still having a hard time understanding how an empty lot in a subdivision under construction with no brush cover, etc. and only about a mile or so from NC's own home is even close to being as remote as Laci Peterson's body being placed/anchored in SF bay. :confused:

The dog smelled the body. I don't think there's anything divine about it. They conduct studies like this all the time here in Knoxville at the FBI cadaver farm. I have a lot of friends who have studied there. This just doesn't make sense to us in our conversations we've had about NC/BC.

SleuthyGal
08-05-2008, 09:08 AM
If you look at the maps section you can see some detailed area maps that will show you that her body was about 3 mi (I'm estimating) from her house in a more remote area than where she lived. And you can go into Google maps and see what the aerial shot looks like for that new subdivsion

She wasn't nearly as far away or as hidden as Laci's body, no, but neither was she on a well-traveled path either since it was at the very end of a yet-to-be developed subdivision about 3 miles away. And there was heavy foliage around the area--literally within 10 ft of where her body was dumped she could have been placed and very much obscured, and while a domestic or wild animal would have been attracted to the scent, she would have been even harder to spot.


I guess it's just something I'd have to see with my own eyes. I thought her body was out in the open and could've been seen from above. It really looks that way from the photos.

Star12
08-05-2008, 09:17 AM
I guess it's just something I'd have to see with my own eyes. I thought her body was out in the open and could've been seen from above. It really looks that way from the photos.


Yes, if you are talking about from a helicopter view, the body was "in the open".

But when were the helicopters activated? I don't know the answer to that.

But from the ground, the body would not be visible to a passerby. However, the odor would have been very apparent.

It was in a relatively remote location, hidden well enough that it took 2-1/2 days to be found.

EntreNous
08-05-2008, 10:51 AM
I'm guessing July 12 on the helicopters but I could be wrong. I know the footage of the dump site showing the investigators is from a helicopter and of course we know that to be the day of discovery.

mollymalone
08-05-2008, 11:11 AM
If this was Brad, he needed her to be found. The location is close by, he could easily dump her and then proceed to the store or back home and have been out of the house a minimal amount of time to do it.

If there turns out to be insurance on Nancy, the body would have to be found before he could collect. If Nancy's body was hidden so that she wasn't found for quite some time he probably figured that her family would be constantly on his tail whereas if she was found and then buried his contact with them would be minimal.

Brad may be like a lot of murderers, they expect LE to believe them and not question their statements etc.

Star12
08-05-2008, 12:10 PM
Personally, IMO, I really don't think that he cogitated much on this. I think he was working on adrenalin and thinking, "OMG OMG now what do I do? I can't leave her here. The kids, the cops, OMG gotta get her out of here" and did what he had to do. I don't think it was a planned act, but that it was a crime of passion -- he let his anger take over. After that, I think he just did what was expedient to separate himself, the children, and his home from Nancy's body.

If BC had planned this, don'tcha think he would have done a better job of it?

Brad's period of "playing nice' was just too difficult for him to sustain, and it had come to an end. I just don't think he had the commitment and engagement with his family to be the husband and father he was expected to be. I think they both wanted too much, too soon as far as lifestyle goes.

2Daughters1Dog
08-05-2008, 12:19 PM
anywhere in this further convict BC thread, has the phase/sky location of the moon been metioned? Or to discover that would require some actual research as opposed to SWAG musings?

BTW, if street lights are functioning in one part of the neighborhood, they'd function everywhere - unless the bulb was burned out. You think someone goes around and cuts each one one every night?

Star12
08-05-2008, 12:39 PM
anywhere in this further convict BC thread, has the phase/sky location of the moon been metioned? Or to discover that would require some actual research as opposed to SWAG musings?

BTW, if street lights are functioning in one part of the neighborhood, they'd function everywhere - unless the bulb was burned out. You think someone goes around and cuts each one one every night?

Just because a house is built doesn't mean it's occupied.

Sometimes fixtures just aren't connected to the power. A very remote cul-de-sac with no construction, no building materials -- only thing there was a light fixture. No way of knowing at noon when we were there if the power was cut on.

We saw in another area another light fixture. It was lit. That's why someone went last night to check it out. No need for smart remarks. None of us have the answers. We are all exploring here, discussing, discovering, and sharing.

WSTarheel
08-05-2008, 12:43 PM
A couple of us locals were not able to go to the meetup last Saturday. We're planning on going today. One of the things I'm interested in is if there are any cut through streets or trails from Lochmere to Holly Springs Rd. Knowing Holly Springs Road, I would agree that Nancy probably would not have taken that route.

mollymalone
08-05-2008, 01:40 PM
Star12 I don't think he planned it out prior, but we'll see what the investigation comes up with. I'm just saying that after the killing and after his OMG moment if he had any, he had to decide what to do.

It wouldn't have taken that much time to think those kinds of thoughts about the family, about how long he would have before she was found, where to dump her body at.

mollymalone
08-05-2008, 01:56 PM
If it was Brad, the killing could have been committed on the spur of the moment, in a rage. But, it could have been planned in advance, not necessarily for a specific date, that could have just happened to occur because of a fight providing the opportunity.

It could have been that the games Brad was playing with the passports etc.. were enough to satisfy him but once it was clear that she was going to leave him, his ego couldn't handle that. A case of I don't want you but nobody else will have you.

Just a thought.

reddress58
08-05-2008, 03:10 PM
A couple of us locals were not able to go to the meetup last Saturday. We're planning on going today. One of the things I'm interested in is if there are any cut through streets or trails from Lochmere to Holly Springs Rd. Knowing Holly Springs Road, I would agree that Nancy probably would not have taken that route.
At least two ways: You can go through the Camden Forest neighborhood off of Cary Parkway, which connects to the Wynston Ridge S/D. Wyston Ridge comes out onto Holly Springs Rd. There is also a greenway behind the homes east of Lochmere Drive that connects to Wynston Ridge S/D by a foot bridge over Swift Creek. That would be a possible running route, however, there still is no reason to get out on Holly Springs Rd. If you took either of these routes to Wynston Ridge S/D, you can loop back around to Lochmere without getting out on Holly Springs Rd. Just do NOT think it happened that way.

WSTarheel
08-05-2008, 04:11 PM
At least two ways: You can go through the Camden Forest neighborhood off of Cary Parkway, which connects to the Wynston Ridge S/D. Wyston Ridge comes out onto Holly Springs Rd. There is also a greenway behind the homes east of Lochmere Drive that connects to Wynston Ridge S/D by a foot bridge over Swift Creek. That would be a possible running route, however, there still is no reason to get out on Holly Springs Rd. If you took either of these routes to Wynston Ridge S/D, you can loop back around to Lochmere without getting out on Holly Springs Rd. Just do NOT think it happened that way.

Yep! After visiting the site myself today I have to agree. I now feel pretty confident that she was killed elsewhere and dumped. It just doesn't seem remotely possible that this area was part of her run.

raisincharlie
08-05-2008, 04:16 PM
anywhere in this further convict BC thread, has the phase/sky location of the moon been metioned? Or to discover that would require some actual research as opposed to SWAG musings?

BTW, if street lights are functioning in one part of the neighborhood, they'd function everywhere - unless the bulb was burned out. You think someone goes around and cuts each one one every night?


Actually the data has been posted to include hourly temperatures, barometric pressure, windspeed, humidity and even sunrise time.

WSTarheel
08-05-2008, 06:04 PM
One of the things that struck me when I visited in person today was the terrain. NONE of the pictures that I have seen so far accurately portray the angle of the slope from the side of the road to the area where the white roses are. If NC's body was where the white roses are, it would definitely not be seen from the road. The incline from where the purple and white memorial flowers are to the white roses is probable 35 degrees or more.

EntreNous
08-05-2008, 08:35 PM
Personally, IMO, I really don't think that he cogitated much on this. I think he was working on adrenalin and thinking, "OMG OMG now what do I do? I can't leave her here. The kids, the cops, OMG gotta get her out of here" and did what he had to do. I don't think it was a planned act, but that it was a crime of passion -- he let his anger take over. After that, I think he just did what was expedient to separate himself, the children, and his home from Nancy's body.

If BC had planned this, don'tcha think he would have done a better job of it?

Brad's period of "playing nice' was just too difficult for him to sustain, and it had come to an end. I just don't think he had the commitment and engagement with his family to be the husband and father he was expected to be. I think they both wanted too much, too soon as far as lifestyle goes.

I agree Star12. He may have toyed with the idea of killing her at some point but at the time of her actual death I believe what happened was a result of rage. Lot's of men who hate their wives fantasize about pushing her in front of a bus. Lot's of men don't but many do.

If BC killed NC and dumped her I'd have to say it's too messy for it to have been planned out. If however he hired someone to kill her and make it look like a botched sexual assault then yes, of course that has the hallmarks of a planned homicide.

And to address an earlier comment regarding BC not having to deal with NC's parents if her body is found and buried, how would he no longer have contact with the grandparents of his children? As is stands, if he's not arrested, not convicted he'll certainly have to have contact with the Rentz family because of the girls.
Of course and as always, JMO.

Bob&Bob
08-05-2008, 09:06 PM
I agree Star12. He may have toyed with the idea of killing her at some point but at the time of her actual death I believe what happened was a result of rage. Lot's of men who hate their wives fantasize about pushing her in front of a bus. Lot's of men don't but many do.

If BC killed NC and dumped her I'd have to say it's too messy for it to have been planned out. If however he hired someone to kill her and make it look like a botched sexual assault then yes, of course that has the hallmarks of a planned homicide.

And to address an earlier comment regarding BC not having to deal with NC's parents if her body is found and buried, how would he no longer have contact with the grandparents of his children? As is stands, if he's not arrested, not convicted he'll certainly have to have contact with the Rentz family because of the girls.
Of course and as always, JMO.

"in front of a bus"?

reddress58
08-05-2008, 09:41 PM
Yep! After visiting the site myself today I have to agree. I now feel pretty confident that she was killed elsewhere and dumped. It just doesn't seem remotely possible that this area was part of her run.
WS, can you tell us more of your impressions? We, who were in the first group, would like to compare notes with your group.

EntreNous
08-05-2008, 09:47 PM
Bus, train, BMW, you pick. Divorce can be nasty, thoughts can get ugly.

SleuthyGal
08-05-2008, 09:49 PM
WS, can you tell us more of your impressions? We, who were in the first group, would like to compare notes with your group.

Yes DITTO! I would love to hear your various impressions from your visit to the site.

WSTarheel
08-05-2008, 10:04 PM
WS, can you tell us more of your impressions? We, who were in the first group, would like to compare notes with your group.

I brought my camera but didn't take any pics because you all had already provided much better ones than I could have ever taken.There was just two of us... we started out at Java Jive, took Lochmere over to NC's residence. We both got teared up with all the white ribbons on mailboxes and trees in that area.Then we proceded to find the "dump site". If I had not seen previous photos posted on here with the purple/white flower memorial, we probably would not have found it. I never did find any street signs except for Fielding. There was lots of construction in the area around us... lots of noise and traffic. We stood at the site for probably 10 minutes paying our respects to Nancy. In that time, THREE construction trucks (I'm assuming) pulled in and turned around in the cul-de-sac.Two things struck me that were not as I expected...* The slope of the dump site is much more steep than can be portrayed in pics. Her body would have been totally hidden from the road.* I was on the fence before as to whether or not this was a dump site or part of her run. After seeing it, I am inclined to believe it was a dump site.

EntreNous
08-05-2008, 10:22 PM
Thanks for your account WS. It sounds like the whole neighborhood is in mourning for Nancy.

You know, I just want to say something. I've been married for going on 26 years and over them we've had friends but never the kind of community that existed in Nancy's world. Aside from BC being "socially challenged", it seems like they all were such a loving group of friends. I could be wrong but I don't think that's common. The cookouts, dinner parties, sharing birthdays, etc. That would never happen here. My neighbors constantly feud over petty things like leaves falling in their yards.

I wish people could learn from tragedies like this, that we should be as kind to one another as Nancy and her friends were to each other.

chauncey7381
08-05-2008, 10:31 PM
+++Or to discover that would require some actual research as opposed to SWAG musings?

The autopsy results should squelch some of the "Brad did it" postulations should his statements be proven true.

He and his attorney's want the results made public ASAP, cause they are confident TOD occurred after he (and daughter) saw her alive around 7 a.m. Saturday morning. Timeline is VIP.

Tick tock.

SleuthyGal
08-05-2008, 10:35 PM
He and his attorney's want the results made public ASAP, cause they are confident TOD occurred after he (and daughter) saw her alive around 7 a.m. Saturday morning. Timeline is VIP.

Tick tock.

It will be interesting if the M.E. was able to make a determination of TOD within a narrow range that would definitively say "after 7am on Saturday." My understanding is that TOD is done by hours/days, but not within 1 or 2 hours unless the body is found immediately and is in a condition in which internal temp can be taken, etc., etc.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm

WSTarheel
08-05-2008, 10:39 PM
Thanks for your account WS. It sounds like the whole neighborhood is in mourning for Nancy.

You know, I just want to say something. I've been married for going on 26 years and over them we've had friends but never the kind of community that existed in Nancy's world. Aside from BC being "socially challenged", it seems like they all were such a loving group of friends. I could be wrong but I don't think that's common. The cookouts, dinner parties, sharing birthdays, etc. That would never happen here. My neighbors constantly feud over petty things like leaves falling in their yards.

I wish people could learn from tragedies like this, that we should be as kind to one another as Nancy and her friends were to each other.

Thanks Entrenous. I so agree with everything you said. :blowkiss: (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/blowkises.gif:blowkiss:)

chauncey7381
08-05-2008, 10:41 PM
+++Or to discover that would require some actual research as opposed to SWAG musings?

The autopsy results should squelch some of the "Brad did it" postulations should his statements be proven true.

He and his attorney's want the results made public ASAP, cause they are confident TOD occurred after he (and daughter) saw her alive around 7 a.m. Saturday morning. Timeline is VIP.

Tick tock.

raisincharlie
08-05-2008, 10:41 PM
+++Or to discover that would require some actual research as opposed to SWAG musings?

The autopsy results should squelch some of the "Brad did it" postulations should his statements be proven true.

He and his attorney's want the results made public ASAP, cause they are confident TOD occurred after he (and daughter) saw her alive around 7 a.m. Saturday morning. Timeline is VIP.

Tick tock.

Just so you know - the autopsy report will not list or include a TOD. From that perspective - time - it is useless for Brad to use in attempting to squelch anything about the time Nancy left or died.

Tick Tock

BeBeBru
08-05-2008, 10:45 PM
There is another cut through from Lochmere to Holly Springs Road and I think it is Laura
Duncan. Is anyone aware of this route?

BeBeBru
08-05-2008, 10:52 PM
I believe it is the road that goes beside the pool. I had mentioned this before. If one
takes Laura Duncan to Holly Springs Road and makes a left, it is less that a quarter
of a mile to the entrance of the subdivision where NC was found. For that short
distance, I checked the road and there was plenty of room to jog long enough to get to
Fielding. There would be close to no traffic at 6:00-7:00am. Did anyone post this yet?

Skittles
08-05-2008, 11:20 PM
Lilly Atkins Rd., not Laura Duncan.

BeBeBru
08-05-2008, 11:21 PM
Yes! That is it.

jumpstreet
08-05-2008, 11:52 PM
If one
takes [Lily Atkins] to Holly Springs Road and makes a left, it is less that a quarter
of a mile to the entrance of the subdivision where NC was found. For that short
distance, I checked the road and there was plenty of room to jog long enough to get to
Fielding. There would be close to no traffic at 6:00-7:00am. Did anyone post this yet?

It's been explored a bit I think, but it's a good point. Even with that short stretch on Holly Springs, I think it's still somewhat "awkward" for a runner to bother with, given the amount of greenways and trails otherwise accessible and in other directions.

Unless someone just WANTED to check out that new subdivision while on the run (certainly possible), it wouldn't be "preferred" to spend any time on HS road (no sidewalk, tight shoulder, fast traffic, bumpy grass).

Indeed, maybe NC just wanted to change her route on that particular day, or check out the new subdivision, but on face value, that would seem a bit unusual.

mollymalone
08-06-2008, 12:18 AM
SNIP

And to address an earlier comment regarding BC not having to deal with NC's parents if her body is found and buried, how would he no longer have contact with the grandparents of his children? As is stands, if he's not arrested, not convicted he'll certainly have to have contact with the Rentz family because of the girls.
Of course and as always, JMO.Since he's the sole surviving parent, if her body was found, she was buried (as she was) and if he managed NOT to become suspect number one, or not arrested/convicted he would/will have the say whether the girls saw their grandparents or not. If he so chose, he'd never have to have contact with Nancy's family ever again.

I can't see the court withholding custody of the girls from him IF he's not the one who did this and it's proved that he didn't. Granted I could see the court having him checked out before they gave him custody back.

EntreNous
08-06-2008, 01:50 AM
Not so, in the state of NC, in many states now the grandparents can file a court order for visitation rights. This would be assuming that BC would have the courts grant custody back to him. The Rentzes have a legal right to file for visitation. They need only prove that their absence from the girls lives could do harm to their happiness and well being.

2Daughters1Dog
08-06-2008, 09:51 AM
Actually the data has been posted to include hourly temperatures, barometric pressure, windspeed, humidity and even sunrise time.

glad to hear it! Which thread?

raisincharlie
08-06-2008, 09:53 AM
glad to hear it! Which thread?


14 or 15 and I posted it to help narrow it down for you.

2Daughters1Dog
08-06-2008, 10:00 AM
well, checking your posting history (a great feature BTW) it's not readily findable in the first 2 pages, which go past yesterday when I asked this.

Looks like I have to do some sleuthing of my own to find it.

Is there one thread "Just the Known Facts" around here? I see links and legal docs.

raisincharlie
08-06-2008, 10:11 AM
well, checking your posting history (a great feature BTW) it's not readily findable in the first 2 pages, which go past yesterday when I asked this.

Looks like I have to do some sleuthing of my own to find it.

Is there one thread "Just the Known Facts" around here? I see links and legal docs.

It is a great feature.

carolinalady
08-06-2008, 10:17 AM
Here's (http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KRDU/2008/7/12/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA) the almanac data from RDU airport on 7/12/08. It should be fairly close (difference of a degree or two perhaps) to conditions in Cary.

2Daughters1Dog
08-06-2008, 10:44 AM
now see - as to the "how light was it" question, someone (mt3?) actually went out there now and found there was plenty of natural light and/or an operable street light.

It's that jumping on a rumor/wild-assed guess that drives me nutso and apparently some others. Hey, I don't own this joint it just seems with as much time as some people spend on the case you'd spend the time ponder--->research--->post instead of just ponder--->post.

I never did find your post raisin...must be in 14 which is 2 threads ago.

Is there a "just the known facts" thread?

raisincharlie
08-06-2008, 10:52 AM
now see - as to the "how light was it" question, someone (mt3?) actually went out there now and found there was plenty of natural light and/or an operable street light.

It's that jumping on a rumor/wild-assed guess that drives me nutso and apparently some others. Hey, I don't own this joint it just seems with as much time as some people spend on the case you'd spend the time ponder--->research--->post instead of just ponder--->post.

I never did find your post raisin...must be in 14 which is 2 threads ago.

Is there a "just the known facts" thread?

I don't see a Just Known Facts thread even on page 2.

I agree, research is a good thing.

mollymalone
08-06-2008, 11:45 AM
Not so, in the state of NC, in many states now the grandparents can file a court order for visitation rights. This would be assuming that BC would have the courts grant custody back to him. The Rentzes have a legal right to file for visitation. They need only prove that their absence from the girls lives could do harm to their happiness and well being.True, but often there are those who ignore court orders and move from the jurisdiction of the court to another state or another country without notifying either the court or the grandparents. There are also many cases where grandparents file, but do not get awarded visitation.

Presumably if he is given custody back the court will award the grandparents visitation in this case. But that doesn't mean Brad will/would comply.

carolinalady
08-06-2008, 11:58 AM
now see - as to the "how light was it" question, someone (mt3?) actually went out there now and found there was plenty of natural light and/or an operable street light.

It's that jumping on a rumor/wild-assed guess that drives me nutso and apparently some others. Hey, I don't own this joint it just seems with as much time as some people spend on the case you'd spend the time ponder--->research--->post instead of just ponder--->post.

I never did find your post raisin...must be in 14 which is 2 threads ago.

Is there a "just the known facts" thread?

Did you see the post above yours? I posted a link to the data.

EntreNous
08-06-2008, 12:44 PM
True, but often there are those who ignore court orders and move from the jurisdiction of the court to another state or another country without notifying either the court or the grandparents. There are also many cases where grandparents file, but do not get awarded visitation.

Presumably if he is given custody back the court will award the grandparents visitation in this case. But that doesn't mean Brad will/would comply.

No, he certainly doesn't seem like a person who complies.

Topsail Girl
08-06-2008, 02:36 PM
I missed out onthe first meet up - moving my daughter. When is the next one planned? I don't wanna miss it!!!

PrayersForMaura
08-06-2008, 02:52 PM
Photos from our tour this morning:

http://tinyurl.com/6qzlwj

Hi there ... I haven't had a chance to post or read much lately so I am way behind but thank you so much for those of you who went there and for taking and posting these pictures.

It seems like the area there would be full of dirt, weeds, small rocks and possibly mud.

If Brad -- or let's say the "perpetrator" -- went there and "dropped" Nancy's body off, she probably wasn't just "pushed" out of the car.

Were the mud prints in the car, on the car mats, in the house anywhere? Any shoe prints near the crime area??

just wondering if there are any traces found on any potential suspects clothing, shoes or in their car that could be associated with the area in which Nancy was found?

Topsail Girl
08-06-2008, 02:57 PM
Hi there ... I haven't had a chance to post or read much lately so I am way behind but thank you so much for those of you who went there and for taking and posting these pictures.

It seems like the area there would be full of dirt, weeds, small rocks and possibly mud.

If Brad -- or let's say the "perpetrator" -- went there and "dropped" Nancy's body off, she probably wasn't just "pushed" out of the car.

Were the mud prints in the car, on the car mats, in the house anywhere? Any shoe prints near the crime area??

just wondering if there are any traces found on any potential suspects clothing, shoes or in their car that could be associated with the area in which Nancy was found?

I have not heard of any of that kind of info being released but I do know from the photos in the N&O, the investigators were certainly interested in the under carriage of the vehicle in the driveway - especially the front area.

WSTarheel
08-07-2008, 06:53 PM
I missed out onthe first meet up - moving my daughter. When is the next one planned? I don't wanna miss it!!!



Ditto! I'd like to meet more sleuthers too! Please let me know if there are any more meetups planned.

SleuthyGal
08-07-2008, 07:44 PM
Ditto! I'd like to meet more sleuthers too! Please let me know if there are any more meetups planned.

I'm game anytime! I went to the last one and was thrilled to meet such wonderful, smart people. So count me in. :)

Star12
08-08-2008, 12:45 AM
I'm game anytime! I went to the last one and was thrilled to meet such wonderful, smart people. So count me in. :)

If there still are plans, please count me in.

reddress58
08-08-2008, 12:53 AM
If there still are plans, please count me in.
Me, three.

CARYISHOME
08-08-2008, 01:57 AM
Me, three.

Me, four.

Zoe
08-08-2008, 07:56 AM
Me, four.

Me, five! :talker:

Skittles
08-08-2008, 08:28 AM
Six!!

Topsail Girl
08-08-2008, 09:14 AM
Well then how about 9 am on Aug 16th at the same place? Is that date ok with everyone?

SleuthyGal
08-08-2008, 12:21 PM
Well then how about 9 am on Aug 16th at the same place? Is that date ok with everyone?

Works for me! I can hang out until 10:30am.

Zoe
08-09-2008, 08:43 AM
Good morning, everyone --
Just wanted to share some observations from an early trip to Cary this a.m. Not that this will be a surprise to anyone who lives in that area because it's been mentioned before. But, this morning I was traveling home from work and as I passed by Tryon Road I noticed that the time was 6:45 a.m. I took the exit and traveled to BC/NC's residence to see exactly what the neighborhood was like at that time of morning on a Saturday. As I drove down Lochmere Drive at 6:50 a.m, I was surprised to note that I saw only two walkers and one runner. One vehicle was traveling the opposite direction from me. I drove down Wallsburg Court and noted that at the end of most driveways in that cul-de-sac were what appeared to be the morning newspapers wrapped in their plastic bag. One gentleman in this cul-de-sac came out as I was there to retrieve his newspaper. I left Wallsburg Court and took a left on Lochmere Drive to Cary Parkway, turned right and traveled to Holly Springs Road where I took a right and traveled to Fielding Court and back through that area. My observations, Cary Parkway, surprisingly, had very little foot and vehicular traffic in the distance I traveled down it, which I estimate to be approximately a mile. I saw one walker and one runner on Cary Parkway. When I turned onto Holly Springs Road, there was steady vehicular traffic -- bunched up one time due to a slow driver, but fairly consistent with one or two cars driving the opposite direction from me. I saw no runners or walkers on Holly Springs Road. On Fielding Drive, there was no activity as I drove back to the end of this area. No activity was noted back at the construction trailer or in any of the houses being built. As I exited Fielding Drive, I encountered one walker on Fielding Drive. I turned left onto Holly Springs Road, right onto Lily Atkins Road and back to Lochmere Drive. The time was approximately 7:05 am. I encountered zero cars or walkers/runners on Lily Atkins Road. As I passed by Lochmere Swim & Tennis Club, I noted that there were four, maybe five, police officers in the parking area at that location. I could clearly see two people w/blue t-shirts on that had CARY POLICE written in white on the back. I saw one officer, maybe two, that were in uniform. And one gentleman standing by a Crown Vic-type vehicle who looked like a detective in his white long-sleeved shirt, red tie and gun on his hip. They were standing in a circle talking. I drove back down Lochmere Drive and at that time there was significantly more traffic, on foot and in cars. The same was true for Cary Parkway and Kildaire Farm Road. For those unfamiliar with the area, Lochmere Drive, Cary Parkway and Kildaire Farm Road have jogger/walker friendly sidewalks/paths. Holly Springs Road does not. Lily Atkins Road has wide lanes but no sidewalks or marked jogging/walking lanes. What struck me was that if NC did leave her house and go running at 7 a.m. that morning, there would be a very, very small window of opportunity for someone to abduct her without being seen. If she ran down Holly Springs Road, and from what I understand this was not her usual path, someone should have seen something. I understand that folks training for any type of marathon keep to a specific training goal so it would seem that she would not vary from a known route for that goal. But, if she did, and she went down Holly Springs Road, that was the busiest road vehicle-wise. If a car hit her on that road, I can't see how they moved her body without being seen themselves. And, of course, I do realize that what I saw this morning may or may not have been the situation that Saturday morning. I really rode through the area with the thought process of how someone could grab another person and not be seen -- I have no experience in that area but my feeling was that you'd either have to be very lucky or have help. Just my opinion. I would encourage those of you in the area to go out next Saturday and drive around a little before and after 7 a.m. and see what you think

Zoe
08-09-2008, 08:50 AM
[QUOTE=Topsail Girl;2472086]Well then how about 9 am on Aug 16th at the same place? Is that date ok with everyone?[/QUOTE

I'll be there. :talker:

jumpstreet
08-09-2008, 09:12 AM
Good morning, everyone --

Thanks for the post and relay of information from your morning drive... great observations!



...As I passed by Lochmere Swim & Tennis Club, I noted that there were four, maybe five, police officers in the parking area at that location. I could clearly see two people w/blue t-shirts on that had CARY POLICE written in white on the back. I saw one officer, maybe two, that were in uniform. And one gentleman standing by a Crown Vic-type vehicle who looked like a detective in his white long-sleeved shirt, red tie and gun on his hip. They were standing in a circle talking. ...

Not sure exactly what to make of the above... did it look like they might be getting ready to pass out flyers again? Or.... something else?

Zoe
08-09-2008, 09:28 AM
Thanks for the post and relay of information from your morning drive... great observations!



Not sure exactly what to make of the above... did it look like they might be getting ready to pass out flyers again? Or.... something else?

I can't really say -- maybe someone who lives in the area will know more later this morning. If I had to guess, I'd say it was another canvass-type situation since I did not see a crime scene vehicle. But, that's just speculation.

maconrich
08-09-2008, 11:00 AM
I'm not too sure about y'all posting the time/location of the meet -- well unless the chance of having another local.... coughbradcough... show up wouldn't be minded!! But tell ya what if I wasn't on the opposite side of our fair state, I'd be there for sure!!

Topsail Girl
08-11-2008, 10:37 AM
I'm not too sure about y'all posting the time/location of the meet -- well unless the chance of having another local.... coughbradcough... show up wouldn't be minded!! But tell ya what if I wasn't on the opposite side of our fair state, I'd be there for sure!!

Oh come on. Make a short weekend getaway of it. I'll be glad to suggest hotels, restaurants, etc. if you'd like to stay over Sat night. We'd love to have you. Oh and I doubt very highly Brad will be joining us LOL. Besides I know too many people in LE to not have us a little protection around if ya' know what I mean :) PS I know you were joking about Brad.. lol

fran
08-11-2008, 03:54 PM
I'm not too sure about y'all posting the time/location of the meet -- well unless the chance of having another local.... coughbradcough... show up wouldn't be minded!! But tell ya what if I wasn't on the opposite side of our fair state, I'd be there for sure!!

Well, if someone comes and says they're 'fran,' it's not me! :eek: so they would be an imposter!

I'd come except if I drove it would take me awhile to get there!

Hey, IF you post the meeting place, look around you that day and see IF anyone is taking your picture. LOL, I kid you not. In the Holloway case they were taking pictures of the posters BOYCOTTING Aruba at trade shows! ;)

Have fun!
fran

maconrich
08-12-2008, 01:42 AM
Oh come on. Make a short weekend getaway of it. I'll be glad to suggest hotels, restaurants, etc. if you'd like to stay over Sat night. We'd love to have you. Oh and I doubt very highly Brad will be joining us LOL. Besides I know too many people in LE to not have us a little protection around if ya' know what I mean :) PS I know you were joking about Brad.. lol

Awwww that is so sweet :blowkiss:!! Tell ya what, if I didn't have 31 cats (and one wolf) to tend to I might just have taken you up on it! I really liked what I got to see of Cary, and when my son was at State he went down there for most things (shopping, etc) instead of staying in Raleigh or esp going into Durham :eek: And YES! LoL I was Totally kidding about coughbradcough!!

SleuthyGal
08-15-2008, 10:19 PM
Hi All,

I'm planning to be there tomorrow...is a get together still planned? For security purposes if someone could PM me and let me know exactly when and where that would be great.

Topsail Girl
08-15-2008, 11:09 PM
Hi All,

I'm planning to be there tomorrow...is a get together still planned? For security purposes if someone could PM me and let me know exactly when and where that would be great.

Hey - check PM's please :)

SleuthyGal
08-15-2008, 11:26 PM
got it! I'm looking forward to seeing some of you again and meeting others for the 1st time! :smile:

EntreNous
08-15-2008, 11:37 PM
Man, I wish I could meet up with you guys. Be safe and have fun! Hey while you're at it you should swing by SH's house.

Topsail Girl
08-16-2008, 12:02 AM
Man, I wish I could meet up with you guys. Be safe and have fun! Hey while you're at it you should swing by SH's house.


Ohhh it's okay I'll drink a cup of coffee in your honor......wish you could be here too....:blowkiss:

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 02:45 PM
Field trip news? Anyone? Beuller?

Zoe
08-17-2008, 06:07 PM
Field trip news? Anyone? Beuller?

not much new info to report from yesterday's meet-up, other than it's nice to meet up with everyone and actually "talk" to one another! the one topic we did toss around was BC's trip to LTF...and just WHERE ELSE could he possibly have gone in the time before LE called him back home. most of our theories about LTF have been discussed by y'all today...altho' we did not think about the specifics such as he was returning/getting rid of towels or the locker possibility, which are great thoughts, by the way. pretty much figured he stopped by there in an effort to create a timeline for him for later, or, perhaps a timeline [of sorts] for NC by attempting to scan her card in and hoping the front desk person would not notice. in my mind, BC thought he had the whole day to "prepare" NC's "story" -- we did wonder what his "story" would have been had JA not called LE when she did. what was BC up to/what were his plans? what would he have done in the 24 hours he presumed to think he had before he could report NC missing? would he have called LE sunday morning, after NC was missing for 24 hours? :confused: i guess those are things we'll never know but i am so curious about.
anyhow -- good to see you folks who were there!

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the report Zoe. Glad you guys had a nice meet up.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the update. Hopefully the next time you all meet be some movement in the case.

I am patiently waiting, smiling and feeling there is a countdown for BC to get a knock on the door. :whistle:

Zoe
08-17-2008, 07:54 PM
Thanks for the update. Hopefully the next time you all meet be some movement in the case.

I am patiently waiting, smiling and feeling there is a countdown for BC to get a knock on the door. :whistle:

you know, Mt3K, i think the days of waiting will soon be over, too. when we meet next time, i hope you'll be able to join us. :Banane19:

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 08:11 PM
Hi... Star12 and I are having a soda and sitting outside on a wireless connection. Not at JJ, btw. :-) We're on the non-ritzy side of town!

EntreNous
08-18-2008, 08:23 PM
Hi... Star12 and I are having a soda and sitting outside on a wireless connection. Not at JJ, btw. :-) We're on the non-ritzy side of town!

Woot! Have fun!

Star12
08-18-2008, 08:23 PM
Hi... Star12 and I are having a soda and sitting outside on a wireless connection. Not at JJ, btw. :-) We're on the non-ritzy side of town!

SG is wearing yellow...and no cap. hmmmmm? (should I be skeered?) But hey, ritzy is as ritzy does....

And we are waaaay far from xxxx!!!:eek:

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 08:30 PM
We're sitting at the same table but each of us has our laptops...and you know how it is... you can't talk to the person next to you, so you post to them on the forum... LOLOL.

momto3kids
08-19-2008, 12:36 AM
SG is wearing yellow...and no cap. hmmmmm? (should I be skeered?) But hey, ritzy is as ritzy does....

And we are waaaay far from xxxx!!!:eek:

Yellow and no cap? You know who else was dressed like that tonight don't you?:eek:

momto3kids
08-19-2008, 12:37 AM
you know, Mt3K, i think the days of waiting will soon be over, too. when we meet next time, i hope you'll be able to join us. :Banane19:

I will be happy to meet when it calls for a celebration...I hope it is soon!!:crazy:

EntreNous
08-19-2008, 12:19 PM
I will be happy to meet when it calls for a celebration...I hope it is soon!!:crazy:

Ain't that the truth?!?