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CASuzk
08-08-2008, 05:10 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/17136493/detail.html

curiositycat
08-08-2008, 05:19 PM
This is what a lot of us have theorized. But the question remains..where is the body, and DID THE GP's know this also. Cindy was asked about this by GVS last evening and she denied this. Said "If that happened Casey would have called 911." That's what I would think. The question remains if this is true why didn't Casey just call 911?????

BrandyMarie
08-08-2008, 05:20 PM
maybe because she was high??

Parker
08-08-2008, 05:24 PM
I'm not sure I can go with the "drowned in the pool" theory.

It just seems that if it were accidental; why all this lying? May be Casey just panicked?

What is also concerning to me is the flurry of phone calls on the 16th. If there was indeed an accident and she was trying to reach her parents but they did not pick up (please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Cindy nor George picked up) why would she take the body somewhere else?

coltsgal
08-08-2008, 05:33 PM
This is what a lot of us thought happened. I think Casey ititially wanted to do the right thing, which is why she called her parents (why not 911, i'm not sure).

But then she panicked and did something with Caylee...and made up a story.

I wonder what would have happened if Cindy or George answered the phone that day.

txsvicki
08-08-2008, 06:26 PM
I'm not going with the accidental pool drowning either. It's too convenient and doesn't fit with all the other things going on before the week of the 16th. I figure that is going to be used as a possible thing that happened if Casey should be charged with murder. Just more mind games and manipulations being played out, IMO.

STEADFAST
08-08-2008, 06:29 PM
I don't think Caylee died accidentally, because Casey would be more broken up about it. If Caylee is dead and Casey is not unhappy, then Casey must have wanted her dead -- if she is dead.

Hailiejade77
08-08-2008, 06:30 PM
I think this might be what happened to Caylee. I have been saying it from day one. The reason she didn't call 911 is this: they would have realized how long Caylee was dead. i think that Casey was either high or drunk and Caylee wandered into the pool area. Casey had no idea because she wasn't paying attention or maybe sleeping one off. 31 days becomes significant because some drugs take a month to get out of your system. Marijuana is one of them that takes a month to get out of your system if you use it quite frequently. I am not sure about other drugs though.
I think Casey saw Caylee in the pool and when she pulled her out and couldn't get her to come too. Realized how dead she really was due to rigor mortis (sp). Tried calling everyone, no one would answer. Hid her in the yard or playhouse. Tried to call again. No answers. Backed up the car. Borrowed the shovel. Tried to bury her or the clothes. Changed her mind. Put her in the trunk and took off. Or maybe she borrowed the shovel, drove somewhere close and buried Caylee. Then gave the shovel back. If she drove somewhere close she probably could have buried her and had the shovel back within the hour. JMO

fixingtoburst
08-08-2008, 06:33 PM
No way. Casey would have called the cops or her parents and there wouldn't have been this elaborate coverup.

JBean
08-08-2008, 08:19 PM
I'm not sure I can go with the "drowned in the pool" theory.

It just seems that if it were accidental; why all this lying? May be Casey just panicked?

What is also concerning to me is the flurry of phone calls on the 16th. If there was indeed an accident and she was trying to reach her parents but they did not pick up (please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Cindy nor George picked up) why would she take the body somewhere else?
I wonder if some of the arguments between Cindy and Casey were about Casey's mothering. Perhaps Cindy told Casey she was a bad mother or if she wasn't careful something could happen to Caylee. Maybe she reminded her about the ladder to the point it drove Casey nuts.We know there was tension between the two.
So then, when something does happen to Caylee due to Casey's negligence or otherwise, she can't stand the thought that she has to admit to her mother that she was careless and that her mnother was right. So rather than face that she _________.

When my kids were living at home, if they were up to no good, they would often call me just to find out where I was, so they could determine how long it was before I would be home.
Maybe the flurry of phone calls was to figure out how much time she had alone.

awakewriter
08-08-2008, 08:52 PM
I wonder if some of the arguments between Cindy and Casey were about Casey's mothering. Perhaps Cindy told Casey she was a bad mother or if she wasn't careful something could happen to Caylee. Maybe she reminded her about the ladder to the point it drove Casey nuts.We know there was tension between the two.
So then, when something does happen to Caylee due to Casey's negligence or otherwise, she can't stand the thought that she has to admit to her mother that she was careless and that her mnother was right. So rather than face that she _________.

When my kids were living at home, if they were up to no good, they would often call me just to find out where I was, so they could determine how long it was before I would be home.
Maybe the flurry of phone calls was to figure out how much time she had alone.

My problem with the accidental drowning theory is this:

The Anthonys live in a neighborhood. Anyone finding anyone else in a pool would yell the person's name or "hey" a couple times. Upon the realization the person was dead, I think the person who found him would scream.

Just doesn't seem like the quiet activity that would go unnoticed by neighbors.

Simplicity
08-09-2008, 06:57 AM
This young woman is probably addicted to something. Sex, drugs, sympathy, who knows?

I believe she wanted to party. Not thinking about her child, she left the baby in the trunk of her car.

She probably partied and stayed stoned for days. Then all of a sudden she realized she had forgotten the baby in the trunk.

Came back to car, discovered the baby was dead and freaked.

She removed the baby from the trunk, buried her in the grandparents yard. When she discovered that's the first place the police would look for a body, she quickly borrowed the shovel to dig her up.

I don't believe the baby is in Orlando or the surrounding communities.

However, I do believe that she took the babies decomposing body to the everglades.

She probably doused the body with gasoline in an extremely remote area, lit the match and ran.

She has probably lost her mind in the process.

I also believe the grandparents are beginning to face the grim reality of Caylee being deceased. Their daughter is the killer and their grief is taking over.

Lee, Casey's brother acts as though he believes what most of us do. He's a smart young man who obviously loves his sister. However, he is hip to the truth as time goes by.

The twisted family dynamics are apparent, Very sad!

Also, the uncanny coincidence of the so called nanny. My theory is, Casey might have been in a coffee shop or overheard this woman telling someone that she was going to look at an apartment.

The baby is deceased. Hopefully, Caylee will be located and buried in her final resting place. God Bless her.

Casey, as sick and twisted as she obviously is will never admit to anything.

I do wonder is it's an act?

poco
08-09-2008, 07:04 AM
I think this might be what happened to Caylee. I have been saying it from day one. The reason she didn't call 911 is this: they would have realized how long Caylee was dead. i think that Casey was either high or drunk and Caylee wandered into the pool area. Casey had no idea because she wasn't paying attention or maybe sleeping one off. 31 days becomes significant because some drugs take a month to get out of your system. Marijuana is one of them that takes a month to get out of your system if you use it quite frequently. I am not sure about other drugs though.
I think Casey saw Caylee in the pool and when she pulled her out and couldn't get her to come too. Realized how dead she really was due to rigor mortis (sp). Tried calling everyone, no one would answer. Hid her in the yard or playhouse. Tried to call again. No answers. Backed up the car. Borrowed the shovel. Tried to bury her or the clothes. Changed her mind. Put her in the trunk and took off. Or maybe she borrowed the shovel, drove somewhere close and buried Caylee. Then gave the shovel back. If she drove somewhere close she probably could have buried her and had the shovel back within the hour. JMO


Very possible.............. Caylee may have been in that pool for up to 24 hours, who knows - and Casey freaked when she found her and tried to cover her butt - who knows. Will we ever know the truth?

QuickAttack
08-09-2008, 08:13 AM
I'm not going with the accidental pool drowning either. It's too convenient and doesn't fit with all the other things going on before the week of the 16th. I figure that is going to be used as a possible thing that happened if Casey should be charged with murder. Just more mind games and manipulations being played out, IMO.

Nor I.

The "pool ladder" story was contrived to me--it IS too convenient.

Truthful Lies
08-09-2008, 08:17 AM
In that article there is a link to a video called "Cindy Talks: Cindy Anthony responds to Drowning Theory". Has anyone watched it? Can't see it at work....

QuickAttack
08-09-2008, 08:44 AM
In that article there is a link to a video called "Cindy Talks: Cindy Anthony responds to Drowning Theory". Has anyone watched it? Can't see it at work....

I'll go take one for the team. BRB.

Truthful Lies
08-09-2008, 08:54 AM
Quick Attack,

Thank you so much!!!!! I was sitting here thinking about who I was going to call to watch it for me =)

lilacwine
08-09-2008, 08:59 AM
My problem with the accidental drowning theory is this:

The Anthonys live in a neighborhood. Anyone finding anyone else in a pool would yell the person's name or "hey" a couple times. Upon the realization the person was dead, I think the person who found him would scream.

Just doesn't seem like the quiet activity that would go unnoticed by neighbors.


You'd think neighbors would hear calls for Caylee even before that... if she wandered off..

QuickAttack
08-09-2008, 09:01 AM
I typed these notes out quickly--Cindy's responses to the media:

1. Someone told Cindy that she's corageous for turning in her daughter.

2. She considers the pool the riskiest place for Caylee...

3. She knew about the dive in lakes nearby earlier in the week. Told LE: "Go ahead. I don't really care, it doesn't bother me."

4. On the drowning. If Caylee would have drown, Casey would have been as frantic as Cindy was during the 3rd 911 call, taken her to the hospital. The hospital isn't that far away. "I don't see it happening."

5. Hasn't talked to George to see how he's doing since his explosion the day before.

6. Last time they talked to Casey in person was George's visitation Sunday...she asked about Caylee...upset.

7. Attorney says Casey is holding up best she can...has lost weight. She's had emotion all along that she doesn't show.

8. On ZG: They've discounted only that particular ZG. Sgt. Allen and Cdr. Irwin are looking at all the ZGs, though. Casey said from day 1 that the ZG everyone's focused on isn't the right one.

9. People will say what they want to say, jump to conclusions, even about the laundering of the pants, which took on that "foul Pizza odor."

10. Still believes that a ZG has something to do with Casey being gone.

11. Release of search warrant affidavit: Asked about things that didn't add up, she says "I'm not sure what you're talking about." Here's the thing. Through the process it was explained to me...my husband would have done things differently as LE, up north they did things differently. They would have called in FBI that day. We were told step by step, one day at a time, you know, patience. Quicker they can do their little things and leave, it will alleviate one more question in people's minds. But people want to go backwards and make things out of ... (She was evasive once the warrant was brought up, and you could see that she wanted to quickly end the interview).

12. A lot of things have been spoken to the authorities...they're well aware of the issues, they're working on it.

She ends interview.

Truthful Lies
08-09-2008, 09:02 AM
Even growing up with a neighborhood where almost everyone had a pool in their back yard...we all had high wooden fences....and it's doubtful you would hear anything unless you were sitting quietly outside...JMO.

Also, yard work noises, delivery trucks...anything could have covered noise. Any construction going on nearby on those dates? If Casey wasn't trying to hide something, we would expect to hear reports from neighbors about frantic screaming from Casey if Caylee did indeed drown in the pool accidentally. We haven't. I don't think she ever called for Caylee. If a child died in that way, I don't think it would be "oh-where-are-you-this-time" screaming. JMO

Truthful Lies
08-09-2008, 09:12 AM
Thank you, thank you, Quick Attack! Just wondering what she could respond with. =)

QuickAttack
08-09-2008, 09:16 AM
Thank you, thank you, Quick Attack! Just wondering what she could respond with. =)

The main thing I was left with after watching the vid is that Cindy is still wishing for the wild-ZG-goose-chase to continue, and she doesn't believe that Caylee drown in the pool, although she considers that to be a "risky" area at the home.

Go figger.

coltsgal
08-09-2008, 12:54 PM
Nor I.

The "pool ladder" story was contrived to me--it IS too convenient.



I think convenient and simple is what happened. Casey isn't that complex, and this isn't a movie, where it's drawn out and complicated.

The drowning theory makes a bunch of sense to me.

QuickAttack
08-09-2008, 12:59 PM
I think convenient and simple is what happened. Casey isn't that complex, and this isn't a movie, where it's drawn out and complicated.

The drowning theory makes a bunch of sense to me.

Who put the ladder by the pool? Cindy said it was put up before she left the house.

coltsgal
08-09-2008, 01:10 PM
maybe she didn't. maybe she's saying that to cover her guilty conscience, in case this is what happened?

wallflower67
08-09-2008, 01:34 PM
The only way I buy that Caylee drowned in the pool is that Casey didn't call for help because she knew it had been some time since she checked on Caylee...maybe even a day or so. Too busy partying. In fact, she may have left Caylee alone so she could go out. Caylee wandered out in the night and drowned in the pool.

I do think Casey would have called or screamed, but the neighbors may not have heard. Otherwise, they would have come to help. If she could tell Caylee had been dead for hours, she may have just burst into tears rather than screaming.

I'm still not sure why she wouldn't have called 911. At this point, she's going to do time for child neglect. I supposed negligant homicide is worse, but I can't see her being with it enough to weigh the lesser of two evils.

Maybe she just really has snapped and is telling herself Caylee is still alive. If my child died, i can see myself going into denial. Maybe it's easier for Casey to believe Caylee has been kidnapped. That leaves hope that she can be found some day.

lovesbooks
08-09-2008, 01:42 PM
Ever since I saw the pic of the pool in the backyard that has been my theory.
It was in THEIR backyard so neighbors wouldn't, necessarily have seen her go in.

Casey may not have found her right away and panicked. I don't think she's one to take criticism and I can just hear her thinking about the attacks on her negligence. (Remember she didn't want to tell her father about the gas cans)

I don't want to speculate on what happened after she found her.

PoppyMcTwist
08-09-2008, 01:53 PM
I'm not buying the accidental drowning theory.

IMHO this theory has been created to give Casey an "out".

donnam
08-09-2008, 01:54 PM
I have felt this way also since the first time I saw the pool.

I think someone accidently left the ladder attached (probably Casey).
You know sometimes, my daughter will lay down and take a nap if Karmella (my granddaughter) is napping, so maybe this is what happened. Caylee woke up first and wandered into the backyard got into the pool and drowned. Karmella could certainly get into my pool without making any noise or splash, but she cannot swim and wouldn't be able to save herself, and she is the same age as Caylee.

I think Casey woke up, noticed Caylee wasn't there, went looking for her and discovered her dead in the pool. I think she got the child out, noticed it was "too late" and panicked. She made several attempts in her frantic state of mind to reach her parents (flurry of phone calls). When after several attempts to reach a family member failed she decided to do whatever it is she did. Why she didn't call 911 only she knows but, I do not think she could face being blamed for not watching her child and causing her death through negligence. I think she was in deep shock and people do odd things when they are in shock. Now, the lies have been told, and she can't go back to the truth.

This of course is JMO.

AlwaysShocked
08-09-2008, 02:30 PM
But, wait. The 16th when there was a "flurry of calls" to her parents was the Monday after the Sunday 6/15 visit to the grandfather in the nursing home, right? That is also the day that George claims to have seen Casey and Caylee going out the door at around 1:00 PM with Casey saying she was going to work and going to leave Caylee with the nanny, right?

So the flurry of phone calls did not take place while she was at the house, unless she came back later that afternoon and George was not there at the house.

I think I am losing track of things what with so many theories. When were the gas cans stolen again? When did George retrieve the gas cans from the trunk after giving Casey his "rotating the tires" story? Did George then see Casey by herself but without the baby?

AlwaysShocked
08-09-2008, 02:40 PM
Sheesh - I'm back to answer my own questions! I checked the timeline. George Anthony reported the gasoline cans stolen on 6/24/08.

"6-24-08 Casey’s father, George Anthony, reports a theft of $50.00 worth of gas from a backyard shed that was broken into.
http://www.ocso.com/LinkClick.aspx?link=MediaRelations%2f07.28.08_burg lary.pdf&tabid=547&mid=1935"

And he has told the entire story of his retrieval of the gas cans from the trunk of Casey's (actually mom's) car, which had to have taken place AFTER they were reported stolen on 6/24/08.

So Casey was by herself that day. Did he not ask her where Caylee was? George and Cindy had not seen the baby since the 16th at that time.

I have also lost track of what reason George gave for Casey being at the house that day. Anyone remember?

fran
08-09-2008, 02:45 PM
I have felt this way also since the first time I saw the pool.

I think someone accidently left the ladder attached (probably Casey).
You know sometimes, my daughter will lay down and take a nap if Karmella (my granddaughter) is napping, so maybe this is what happened. Caylee woke up first and wandered into the backyard got into the pool and drowned. Karmella could certainly get into my pool without making any noise or splash, but she cannot swim and wouldn't be able to save herself, and she is the same age as Caylee.

I think Casey woke up, noticed Caylee wasn't there, went looking for her and discovered her dead in the pool. I think she got the child out, noticed it was "too late" and panicked. She made several attempts in her frantic state of mind to reach her parents (flurry of phone calls). When after several attempts to reach a family member failed she decided to do whatever it is she did. Why she didn't call 911 only she knows but, I do not think she could face being blamed for not watching her child and causing her death through negligence. I think she was in deep shock and people do odd things when they are in shock. Now, the lies have been told, and she can't go back to the truth.

This of course is JMO.

I've been thinking about this scenario since I saw this thread earlier today. I think what you said is most likely what happened. As I do BELIEVE Caylee is no longer alive, this would make the most sense, seeing the actions and words spoken by Casey since this all began.

Although Casey hasn't spoke a true word since, well, I don't know when, by all accounts she was a good mom. IF Caylee died by accident while in her care, I honestly don't think Casey could admit it out loud. I don't think she could even admit it to herself silently.

I've tried to figure this woman out from the beginning. I just don't understand her. But, on the other hand, IF this is what happened, her actions and words in recent weeks, makes perfect sense of someone who is in a type of shock. Denial. Scared. Mourning.

I'm not sure IF this is the case, and it eventually is found out and proven, if Casey will face and charges and jail time. But either way, IF this is what happened, I pray that people will find it in their heart to forgive her. She would, IMO, deserve sympathy and yes, forgiveness for putting the entire world through this horrible ordeal and for whatever it is she did with her precious daughter after the alleged accident.

Of course IF she'd contacted someone immediately, there would still be heartache over loosing Caylee, but so much further hurt could have been avoided. So much time wasted looking for Caylee, when they could have spent that same time mourning and remembering the precious angel that left this world way too soon.

JMHO
fran

Amberjack
08-09-2008, 02:45 PM
Speculation: I think Casey returned to the house & realized she was "locked out" by her parent's....They surmised she had broken into the shed, & with going away on vacation chose to change the locks. This would put her into a tailspin of anger, feelings of abandonment, rejection.

The ultimate revenge against them...To take away Caylee from them.

The reason the grey pants were in back of the car...Because Casey decided to go "swimming." When she borrowed the shovel, Caylee was not with her. The cadaver dogs hit on an area by the pool, the sandbox, & playhouse.

The "flurry" of phone calls could be her calling & asking why she was locked out.

armywife210
08-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Was the 16th the day her parents were going on this vacation? I have heard here and there about a vacation but I don't know anything about it. Can someone help me out?

kaykakes
08-09-2008, 04:29 PM
I've been thinking about this scenario since I saw this thread earlier today. I think what you said is most likely what happened. As I do BELIEVE Caylee is no longer alive, this would make the most sense, seeing the actions and words spoken by Casey since this all began.

Although Casey hasn't spoke a true word since, well, I don't know when, by all accounts she was a good mom. IF Caylee died by accident while in her care, I honestly don't think Casey could admit it out loud. I don't think she could even admit it to herself silently.

I've tried to figure this woman out from the beginning. I just don't understand her. But, on the other hand, IF this is what happened, her actions and words in recent weeks, makes perfect sense of someone who is in a type of shock. Denial. Scared. Mourning.

I'm not sure IF this is the case, and it eventually is found out and proven, if Casey will face and charges and jail time. But either way, IF this is what happened, I pray that people will find it in their heart to forgive her. She would, IMO, deserve sympathy and yes, forgiveness for putting the entire world through this horrible ordeal and for whatever it is she did with her precious daughter after the alleged accident.

Of course IF she'd contacted someone immediately, there would still be heartache over loosing Caylee, but so much further hurt could have been avoided. So much time wasted looking for Caylee, when they could have spent that same time mourning and remembering the precious angel that left this world way too soon.

JMHO
fran

I also think this a real possiblity.

SWGAL
08-31-2008, 04:27 PM
This has always been what I believed happened:
have always felt that Caylee drowned in the family swimming pool, and after reading all the theories, I still believe that is how she died. I remember Cindy saying they always put the ladder to the pool away and had done so on the previous Sunday. The pool hadn't been used after that day. When Cindy returned from work she noticed the ladder was hanging on the pool on the 16th, and the gate was left open. Cindy said she thought maybe neighbor kids had come in and used it, but I don't. I believe Casey put the ladder on the pool planning to go in the pool with Caylee and then was on her cellphone, Caylee climbed up the ladder and fell in. JMO.

SimplyComplicated
08-31-2008, 04:30 PM
I'm not sure I can go with the "drowned in the pool" theory.

It just seems that if it were accidental; why all this lying? May be Casey just panicked?

What is also concerning to me is the flurry of phone calls on the 16th. If there was indeed an accident and she was trying to reach her parents but they did not pick up (please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Cindy nor George picked up) why would she take the body somewhere else?

Ok just my two cents here. First I don't think you will ever be able to convince me that this was an accident. Even if she panicked, you don't go out partying and dancing and make comments like she did on people's pages if it was an accident. You would see if in her eyes, almost like she was being haunted. She would have broke before now.

Secondly, hasn't anyone considered the flurry of calls were actually a continuation of the fighting that a neighbor claims to have heard (I think I am remembering correctly) or maybe some threats.... ie. "if you don't do this I am taking Caylee away forever".

cluesplease
08-31-2008, 04:35 PM
I'm not buying the accidental drowning theory.

IMHO this theory has been created to give Casey an "out".

yes, "reasonable doubt" ie "accidental" etc

JustJax
08-31-2008, 04:35 PM
I'm not going with the accidental pool drowning either. It's too convenient and doesn't fit with all the other things going on before the week of the 16th. I figure that is going to be used as a possible thing that happened if Casey should be charged with murder. Just more mind games and manipulations being played out, IMO.
I'm not buying an accidental drowning either. I believe that baby was put in the trunk of the car because she could not get a sitter.

mendz
08-31-2008, 04:36 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/17136493/detail.html

that is an old article, posted on August 8th.

lostnfound85
08-31-2008, 04:42 PM
The argument against accidental drowning is that she could have easily reported it and no charges would have been filed - not necessary to go into a 31 day charade of lies and coverups. Also she shows no remorse, which anyone would if their child died from an accident.

bowler
08-31-2008, 05:32 PM
I'm not buying an accidental drowning either. I believe that baby was put in the trunk of the car because she could not get a sitter.

:furious: I believe this also :furious:

poco
08-31-2008, 05:48 PM
Come on, it could have accidental and Casey just didn't report it - she probably had plans that night and the next night and just didn't have time to spend talking to the police about what happened and preparing a funeral and all. She had so many other things she had to do and that would have really put a kink in her lifestyle.

dalli'smom
08-31-2008, 06:05 PM
that is an old article, posted on August 8th.yep--this thread was started on the 8th when the article came out!!

lynie
08-31-2008, 06:07 PM
I believe it was unintentional - yet tragic and wrong.

Have you ever read "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie"?
Then he is going to want a glass of milk, and then he is going to need a napkin to wipe off his mustach and the list of needs go on and on....

I think Casey was getting chastised right and left about being responsible and a good mother to Caylee. I believe she was alone with Caylee and something happened....drowning is a big possibility....hot car another....even backed over by the car. Casey freaks, but is already used to having to hide and cover up things in her life so she does like a champion coverer-upper does, and starts to make the picture right. She may not scream out-loud, but she does in her head and begins the cover up.

The web of lies begins small...Caylee is at the nanny's....Caylee is with the granparents and each of the groups has no reason to disbelieve. She has enough time to make the story believable but it gets larger and bigger and more complex. She keeps trying to cover up the fact of what everybody said, she was not a good mother or responsible for her actions. She is hoping all will believe that Caylee was kidnapped by others, killed by others.

But as good a liar as Casey is, she is just not that smart. And good generally wins out over evil. And like in the book When You Give a Mouse a Cookie you get to the end, you have come full circle and are in the same situation you were at the very beginning. As Casey will be.

Lynie

STEADFAST
08-31-2008, 06:09 PM
Come on, it could have accidental and Casey just didn't report it - she probably had plans that night and the next night and just didn't have time to spend talking to the police about what happened and preparing a funeral and all. She had so many other things she had to do and that would have really put a kink in her lifestyle.

Horrifying, because it's so, so true whether Caylee's death was accidental or on purpose.

Lorakai
08-31-2008, 06:10 PM
I think if Caylee drowned in the pool by accident they would have admitted that right away. Here in FL we have many incident where an accident has occurred, all of which has been called in right away. If Caylee accidentally drowned in the pool, it would be the first case reported in the media that never called after the accident occurred to my knowledge?

Saffron
08-31-2008, 06:12 PM
I agree that Casey would have been distraught had Caylee died accidentally. Even if Casey decided not to tell anyone, even if she feared criticism for being negligent, she still would have been sad and frightened, even if she never explained why. I think her casual, sometimes celebratory behavior afterwards says so much.

Meech
08-31-2008, 06:13 PM
"Cindy Responds To Drowing Theory" 08/08/2008

http://www.wftv.com/video/17137073/index.html

TKS2003
08-31-2008, 06:17 PM
I'm not buying an accidental drowning either. I believe that baby was put in the trunk of the car because she could not get a sitter.


I agree, I have always thought that "Zanny the Nanny" was actually Zanax. I think she had been giving Caylee Zanax and leaving her to sleep in the car, while Casey was busy getting her party on....

txsvicki
08-31-2008, 06:30 PM
The ladder being away from the pool happened on the 17th, same day as the shovel borrowing. The timeline isn't even right for an accidental drowning. The clothes Casey wore on the 16th were still in the car as well as Caylee's backpack. The cell phone pings should show whether Casey was anywhere near the home and pool that afternoon.

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 06:32 PM
I don't know if this has been posted yet...

But if Caylee drowned in the pool on the 16th, this would mean that Casey and Caylee returned to the home that day. George states that both Casey and Caylee left with their backpacks, with Casey heading off "to work," and that Casey mentioned that she would be late. Since she told them she was working, I wonder what she was planning on telling them if they discovered her there at the house? Wouldn't they wonder why she wasn't at work? And that Caylee was with her?

Lorakai
08-31-2008, 06:34 PM
TKS2003 you wrote: "I agree, I have always thought that "Zanny the Nanny" was actually Zanax. I think she had been giving Caylee Zanax and leaving her to sleep in the car, while Casey was busy getting her party on...."


Zenny is an actual nickname for Zenaida as I found the following through a people search, please note the Victor G. through the email Lee sent in the 400pg. doc:

Zanny (Zenaida/Zenita) Fernandez-Gonzalez
26 Years Old/140lbs/5'6" or 5' 7"
Strait Hair but Naturally Curly (Brown)
Brown Eyes
Zanny's car seat is pink with Floral Design
2008 Silver Ford Focus purchased by Victor Gonzalez her Step father
Zanny's biological mother: Gloria Gonzalez 55 yrs old
Zanny's sister is abt. 28 yrs old Samantha
Zanny's roommate Raquel Farrell
Zanny's roommate Jennifer Rosa went to school in Miami?

Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez DOB 10-01-70 NY, MIAMI, UNI of FL born Sept. (already public knowledge according to 400pg doc.)
CENAIDA, VENAIDA, ZNAIVA, ZENAYDA, ZENIA, ZEMIADA

GONZALEZ, ZENAIDA
Associated names:
GONZALEEZ, ZENAIDA
GONZALEZ, ZENNEY
GONZALEZ, ZENNY
GONZALEZ, ZENY

* MIAMI, FL
* CHELSEA, MA
* MARIETTA, GA
* ORLANDO, FL
* WINTER PARK, FL


* GONZALEZ, ZENNEY

GONZALEZ, ZEMIADA

* ROXBURY, MA
* ORLANDO, FL
* ALTAMONTE SPG, FL
* WINTER PARK, FL
* KISSIMMEE, FL

* GONZALEZ, VICTOR M
* GONZALEZ, VICTOR G (Age 56)
* GONZALEZ, VICTOR M (Age 56)
* GONZALEZ, ZEYDA

**** note the Victor G, and Victor M ex: Gloria Gonzalez would be noted in directories as Victor G. the wife of Victor M.****

GONZALEZ, ZANNY
NEW YORK, NY

GONZALEZ, ZANNY
BRONX, NY

"I still have hope and faith that Caylee will be found"

websurfer
08-31-2008, 06:36 PM
:furious: I believe this also :furious:




possibly she was in the trunk with pizza and was killed by the fumes?

icherish
08-31-2008, 06:38 PM
I feel like Caylee died in the car. Not in the trunk, but in her carseat while Casey spent time with her boyfriend at night. I just refuse to think Casey deliberately put a living Caylee in that trunk.

I remember a case on court TV (I want to say it was in KY) involving two young children dying in a car. A young single mother wanted to party and hang out with her bf. She had her babies sleeping in the car outside of the motel on a summer night, way over slept and found them dead next day from heat exposure. Horribly sad.

tabbykiki
08-31-2008, 06:43 PM
I don't think this is "new". The article is dated 8/8...

distracted
08-31-2008, 06:45 PM
It appears Casey doesn't take responsibility for anything. If it was an accident or an accident due to negligence, it's possible in my opinion, that she realized that her parents as well as everyone else would blame her. It was easier for her to create this elaborate farse than to deal with the blame because in her mind nothing is ever her fault. She can justify anything.

In one of the first statements she stated that she thought they would try to "pin" it on her. After living the lie for awhile, and getting away with it, she started to believe it.

I know that many, including experts, believe that it had to be intentional because of her behavior afterwards but there are always exceptions. Maybe she was relieved. That relief can manifest itself in many ways. She may have felt a freedom she hadn't felt in four years. She also may have thought that the clock was ticking and she might as well enjoy what little time she had left. Who knows.

What we do know is that she is different. She is not normal. She is not going to think and act like people normally do.

tabbykiki
08-31-2008, 06:46 PM
:furious: I believe this also :furious:

ITA with this. Casey put her in the trunk because she wanted to go clubbing. :mad:

Darlene733510
08-31-2008, 06:46 PM
I would think that if Caylee drowned in the pool that the hair found in the trunk would have a high level of clhorine.

We don't know for sure if the story about the ladder being by the pool is true, or if the back gate being left open is also true. I think that this story was thought up by someone trying to find any other excuse that Caylee could be dead, and not by the hand of her own Mother.

If the body is found the decomposition will probably be so advanced that they may not be able to tell the COD.
Maybe, and it's a big maybe, then Casey will say it was an accidental drowning and she was afraid to report it.

I really think this child died at the hands of the Mother who did not want her to begin with. All the partying Casey did, and how she just went on only thinking of a good time, and never looking for Caylee, but always making excuses that she was with GM or a sitter, tells me that a lot of evil lurks within this party girl.

There was, and there is still no concern for Caylee. Now
Casey will get all the attention - I hope she enjoys it, because she will never see the inside of Fusion again,
her friends have abandoned her because they realize she is what her mother said she is - a sociopath, a liar and a thief - and probably a murderer too.

RIP sweet precious girl - You are loved by so many people.

lmcgill
08-31-2008, 07:03 PM
I do not believe for a minute that this was accidental, when a horrible accident happens people react as such. I am not saying that all people react the same to death, however I choose to believe that there would be signs of grief on some human level.
She treated this child the same way she treated every other person in her life. When they served a purpose, had something to offer or just simply made her feel important then and only then did they fit into her plan.Apparently, Caylee no longer fit her criteria.

TKS2003
08-31-2008, 07:04 PM
TKS2003 you wrote: "I agree, I have always thought that "Zanny the Nanny" was actually Zanax. I think she had been giving Caylee Zanax and leaving her to sleep in the car, while Casey was busy getting her party on...."


Zenny is an actual nickname for Zenaida as I found the following through a people search, please note the Victor G. through the email Lee sent in the 400pg. doc:

Zanny (Zenaida/Zenita) Fernandez-Gonzalez
26 Years Old/140lbs/5'6" or 5' 7"
Strait Hair but Naturally Curly (Brown)
Brown Eyes
Zanny's car seat is pink with Floral Design
2008 Silver Ford Focus purchased by Victor Gonzalez her Step father
Zanny's biological mother: Gloria Gonzalez 55 yrs old
Zanny's sister is abt. 28 yrs old Samantha
Zanny's roommate Raquel Farrell
Zanny's roommate Jennifer Rosa Miami?

Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez DOB 10-01-70 NY, MIAMI, UNI of FL born Sept.
CENAIDA, VENAIDA, ZNAIVA, ZENAYDA, ZENIA, ZEMIADA

GONZALEZ, ZENAIDA T (Age 45)
Associated names:
GONZALEEZ, ZENAIDA
GONZALEZ, ZENNEY
GONZALEZ, ZENNY
GONZALEZ, ZENY

* MIAMI, FL
* CHELSEA, MA
* MARIETTA, GA
* ORLANDO, FL
* WINTER PARK, FL

* GONZALEZ, JANELLY C (Age 37)
* MEDINA, NIEVES CARMEN (Age 55)
* GONZALES, LETICIA GONZALEZ (Age 108)
* GONZALEZ, FERNANDO
* GONZALEZ, LETICIA (Age 35)
* GONZALEZ, JANELLY C (Age 37)
* GONZALEZ, ZENNEY

GONZALEZ, ZEMIADA (Age 47)

* ROXBURY, MA
* ORLANDO, FL
* ALTAMONTE SPG, FL
* WINTER PARK, FL
* KISSIMMEE, FL

* GONZALEZ, VICTOR M (Age 35)
* GONZALEZ, VICTOR G (Age 56)
* GONZALEZ, VICTOR M (Age 56)
* GONZALEZ, MARCOS R (Age 53)
* GONZALEZ, ZEYDA S (Age 36)

**** note the Victor G, and Victor M ex: Gloria Gonzalez would be noted in directories as Victor G. the wife of Victor M.****

GONZALEZ, ZANNY (Age 36)
NEW YORK, NY

GONZALEZ, ZANNY M (Age 68)
BRONX, NY

**** Mods: Is there a specific thread for info only on Zenaida Gonzalez? If so should I start one and include this info? ****

Thanks

Hi!
Respectfully, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.....The nanny has been referred to as "ZANNY", not "Zenny". So I am not sure what you're trying to tell me here

SWGAL
08-31-2008, 07:08 PM
The possibility of her drowning in the pool is one theory the police are working on.
I agree with it, and of course, it is possible that Cindy lied about finding it in her interview with Greta. I worry that Casey may have burned her body with gas from the gas cans Geo. found in Casey's car that had been stolen from him.

http://www.wesh.com/news/17353349/detail.html


Theory Suggests Caylee Anthony Drowned In Family Pool
http://www.wftv.com/news/17136493/detail.html

Lorakai
08-31-2008, 08:08 PM
Hi!
Respectfully, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.....The nanny has been referred to as "ZANNY", not "Zenny". So I am not sure what you're trying to tell me here

Gosh,.. um,.. these are all sorts of different ways to pronounce or find information on Zenaida. I have heard in interviews with the family, them referencing to both ways of pronunciation. I was letting you know that Zanny and Zenny also referred to as Zanax could actually be a real nickname of Zenaida and not just association with the drug which is true.

ps,.. could you take the quote off your previous post,.. I have removed certain info from my original post. Thanks ;)

cjm11
08-31-2008, 10:24 PM
I wonder what drugs, chemicals would show up in the hair they tested that determined it was, in deed, Caylee.

SleuthyGal
08-31-2008, 10:32 PM
Drugs and chemicals don't determine identity. DNA determines it. They did a DNA test of the hair AND the hair root and any skin attached. They had a 'known sample' of Caylee's DNA and the hair matched the sample. That's how they determined the identity of whose hair was in the trunk.

Themis
08-31-2008, 10:42 PM
IMHO I agree. That's what the family wants people to think, but not until a body is discovered and too decomposed to provide evidence. In the meantime, demanding the public search for a live child. If the true cause of death is a drugged child (because she was in the way) or physical child abuse, then the guilty one(s) would rather if a body is found, blame it on a SODDI (some other dude did it) or accidental drowning. The response to an accidental drowning wouldn't be what we are seeing. Since the kidnapping story is debunked by the scientific fact that a dead child was in the trunk and in the yard, the only plausible theory left is overdose to keep her sleeping (intentional act) or physical child abuse resulting from someone's rage. If I had to choose between theories, I would choose the drugged child -- a 30 day "script" (prescription) of Xanax -- Zanny -- Zanny the Nanny took her. She got the 30 day script in Blanchard Park from some dealer and the blackjack "fell out of her bag" "fell out of her pocket" "get it." The 30 day supply fell out of her bag/pocket and Caylee, in the car during the days, ate them and died.

eg@gm
08-31-2008, 10:49 PM
This is what a lot of us thought happened. I think Casey ititially wanted to do the right thing, which is why she called her parents (why not 911, i'm not sure).

But then she panicked and did something with Caylee...and made up a story.

I wonder what would have happened if Cindy or George answered the phone that day.

The case wouldn't have made national headlines if they would have answered.

JWG
03-19-2010, 11:11 AM
Bumping this thread in order to carry our a discussion around the pool ladder. Such a discussion would tie into the accidental drowning theory.

JBean or another mod, could you modify the title to say something to the effect of:

Theory Suggests Caylee Anthony Drowned In Family Pool - Ladder found out of place

SoCalSleuth
03-19-2010, 11:26 AM
They are seeking the death penalty. Do you really think KC and the Anthonys would let it go this far if it were truly an accident?

JWG
03-19-2010, 12:51 PM
They are seeking the death penalty. Do you really think KC and the Anthonys would let it go this far if it were truly an accident?

I'm bumping the thread not because I believe the theory, but because there was a desire to discuss the ladder scenario.

ohiogirl
03-19-2010, 01:06 PM
They are seeking the death penalty. Do you really think KC and the Anthonys would let it go this far if it were truly an accident?

Most rational, logical people wouldn't, but who knows with this group?

believe09
03-19-2010, 01:29 PM
Sorry-not buyin it...what are the chances Casey would go to such great lengths to create a bizarre kidnapping scenario and then conceal and dump Caylee's body if it could have been charecterized in any way as an accident? I think there is too much circumstantial evidence pointing towards premeditation (the 100th episode of the show, google searches for chloroform)...JMVHO

affinity
03-19-2010, 01:41 PM
Sorry-not buyin it...what are the chances Casey would go to such great lengths to create a bizarre kidnapping scenario and then conceal and dump Caylee's body if it could have been charecterized in any way as an accident? I think there is too much circumstantial evidence pointing towards premeditation (the 100th episode of the show, google searches for chloroform)...JMVHO

I have always thought this drowning in the pool thing is exactly what happened (Caylee died from accident/neglect). The elaborate cover up is because KC who was nearly completely nuts prior became totally nuts after.
She knew her Mother was going to be out of her mind furious (and I am sure she has been and still is).
The search for the episode is likely coincidence if prior to Caylee's death and was in KC's memory bank for easy access so she could come up with all this ridiculous movie-ish crap.

Let us not forget that if the answer were as "simple" as this (and it likely IS) that little miss cash cow would no longer be a cash cow..and everyone (including you and I) would have to go find some other exciting thing to do/write/say/conjur/report/etc etc. Do you think JB, AL and now this new guy want any of this to end? Hell, no. The new guy (Monroe?) described it yesterday as "fun". It is legal "fun" to him.

wonders
03-19-2010, 01:45 PM
None of them ever said it was an accident unless you count what GA allegedly told RC/CH or whatever her name is. KC's own written statement said that the "nanny" kidnapped Caylee. Of course we know there was no nanny. It is way too late to change the story now.
IMVHO KC murdered her beautiful 2 year old daughter Caylee.

stmarysmead
03-19-2010, 01:50 PM
It does seem ludicrous that this family would let an accidental death spiral into the current madness. But there are times when I can consider the possibilty.

1. Suppose Casey thought she could avoid all blame, and indeed be embraced by Family Anthony again if she were(as she called herself) another "victim" of a kidnapping. Her alternative was to prove her Mother right that she was a bad parent...and become the very person her Mother "could never forgive." If Caylee stayed "missing"...maybe she felt she could easily pull it all off.

Anyone with the chutzpah to walk down that Hall at Universal to her supposed "office" with the police, KNOWING it was a fabrication...is certainly capable of pushing any lie to the Max.

2. So maybe the Anthonys believed her kidnapping story at first. Maybe when they became "celebrities", money pouring in, foundations, etc...to keep believing in the Kidnapper had definite benefits than being just another set of grandparents whose grandbaby drowned. All the attention, donations, etc...would have dried up immediately. So why try to press Casey to say it was an accident...if her stubbornness was kind of working well for George and Cindy.

3.Then, when things went too far too long..the DP was on the table...they had ALL said and done too much to walk the story back to an accident.

Knowing the family ability to embrace fantasy, lie even when outrageous, and stubborn refusal to back off...yes, sometimes I can see it.

affinity
03-19-2010, 01:53 PM
When I was very young a friend of mine fell down some concrete stairs. I found her laying at the base of the stairs looking befuddled. I remember that instead of having the appropriate response...I felt embarrassed for her! I went off to play elsewhere and did not tell anyone about what happened! (She was found by someone else and thankfully she didn't die and did not have a serious injury...but she was definitely stunned). That event has always haunted me. WHY didn't I handle that better than I did? What was wrong with me that I had the wrong response?

I believe I would be capable as being as stupid, inappropriate and weird as KC at her age. Because she has such deep neurosis all her life and Caylee's death and all the lawyers, news people and enabling parents are helping her to slip deeper and deeper into full blown psychosis (she exhibits clearly "dissassociative" behavior) .

magic-cat
03-19-2010, 01:54 PM
So JWG, what about that latter? The person who wants to discuss does not seem to be around. Know something new, some new twist or nightmare we should know about? lol

okiedokietoo
03-19-2010, 02:04 PM
What if the "ladder by the pool and gate left open" happened the same day the "shovel was borrowed"? KC tried to stage an accident. Caylee is already dead but KC was going to put Caylee into the pool, call CA and GA and say that "Caylee got into the pool and isn't breathing" -
KC decided not to stage the accident, borrowed the shovel to bury Caylee decided against that and Caylee stayed in the trunk


I was trying to come up with any possible scenario but after I typed that - it makes sense

Harmony2
03-19-2010, 02:10 PM
The ladder could have simply been moved to wash something in the pool,,, the shovel??

LambChop
03-19-2010, 03:50 PM
Do we even know that the ladder and the gate being open is true? This came from the A's right. I read somewhere a comment that was made "If it was an accident you would call 911 not go borrow a shovel." Duct tape on a child that has drowned would not make any sense. Also renting a video about kidnapping and duct tape the night your child goes missing also does not make sense if it were an accident. JMO

BondJamesBond
03-19-2010, 05:27 PM
So JWG, what about that ladder? The person who wants to discuss does not seem to be around. Know something new, some new twist or nightmare we should know about? lol

:wave: "Around" but driving 10 hrs & promised I wouldn't text while behind the wheel (stopped for gas now ;) )

Was reading 'nother sleuther's email (which I can't access now :rolleyes:) & hoping to see it pop up here :).

Perhaps we're waiting for the thread title to be updated...or for the post to be drafted ;)

okiedokietoo
03-19-2010, 06:16 PM
Right to all above - thought this was opened to discuss the ladder - I guess, possible scenarios about the ladder.........

celticthyme
03-19-2010, 06:36 PM
If we follow the time lines and PINGS for the 16th, and see that there is enough time for Casey & Caylee to be home, it is not outside the real of possibility that Caylee could have seen her opportunity to get into the pool, with the ladder up to it, and fall in and drown while Casey was distracted. However we have that day down pretty tightly, even to knowing they had been at the Walmart that afternoon. I do not think that is what happened however.

okiedokietoo
03-19-2010, 07:03 PM
I really am starting to convince myself that KC was going to try and stage an accident on the 17th or 18th, after Caylee was dead

seekingjustice**
03-19-2010, 07:18 PM
IMO if Caylee did drown, it was because her mother held her head under the water! With all the circumstantial evidence we have seen to date, there is no way that I can believe this little girls death was an accident.

Lexington
03-19-2010, 07:30 PM
I believe this "Caylee drowned in the pool theory" was invented by Cindy and George. They knew early on that Caylee was dead and Casey killed her. They wanted to make it a more acceptable death so the story about the pool ladder up and the gate open came into being (in a very early GVS interview). They then presented this story to Casey in a jail house interview under the false pretense that "people are saying". People weren't saying, it was Cindy and George saying. Although they were putting words in Casey's mouth, she didn't bite and continued on with the ridiculous and unbelievable nanny story. I think that ladder was moved by Cindy and George to give Casey an accidental drowning in the pool defense.

Skully
03-19-2010, 08:47 PM
Happy Spring to all! I have felt that maybe Casey was on the phone or emailing or posting on her computer and just wasn't watching Caylee and she either fell into the pool or maybe even forgot her in a hot car. I think her fear of what Cindy's reaction would be was so great she decided to concoct this whole kidnapping thing. I also feel that Casey may have felt bad, but it was also a sense of relief for her, now she was free to party and have fun and not be a mother to Caylee. Casey in my opinion is a true psychopath and just doesn't have a conscience about right or wrong, she just doesn't feel guilt about it one way or the other. She knows the difference, she just doesn't care, I don't think she is wired correctly, KWIM?

OKaraMia
03-19-2010, 10:42 PM
If my daughter accidently drown...Id try CPR.
The opposite of CPR would be a face full of duct tape.

IF KC was staging a kidnapping....she couldve staged fear.

YellowSubmarine
03-19-2010, 11:01 PM
Let's just say, for kicks and giggles, that Caylee did die due to an accident. kc proceeding to duct tape and triple bag her and throw her in the woods should wipe out any possible chance of leniency due to an accidental death just for the fact she did those horrific things.

suepitzl
03-19-2010, 11:22 PM
All due respect........It has been debunked multiple times.......let it go.....IMO

affinity
03-19-2010, 11:27 PM
All due respect........It has been debunked multiple times.......let it go.....IMO what has been debunked?

christee
03-20-2010, 12:14 AM
My apologies for interrupting the flow but I just have to say that this theory has remained on my list even after many, many discussions on the subject. While I'm a bit rusty on the timeline, I believe KC had the time and opportunity to take a swim on the 16th, but I think it's possible an accident could have happened at another pool, maybe the pool at TL's apartment complex?...Just a thought!

gamom
03-20-2010, 12:26 AM
I COULD understand if Caylee drowned and KC panicked and called her parents. When my daughter was 2 she had a seizure. I was the exact same age as KC was. I panicked. I immediately called my husband, who told me to hang up and call 9-1-1. I don't know why I did not call 9-1-1 myself. I think it is because since we were kids we were told that numbers were only for emergencies. I think as a young mom, I was not sure if it was an emergency and needed someone to tell me it was. It sounds silly now looking back, but that day my first reaction was to call my spouse who was miles away. So I could see how KC might do the same.

HOWEVER, I can not relate to putting the baby in the trunk of your car with tape on her mouth and going out to rent a movie with your boyfriend a few hours later like nothing was wrong....that is why deserves the DP in my mind. Accident or not.

butterfly1978
03-20-2010, 04:27 AM
If it were an accident and Casey "mishandled" the situation by whatever reason not calling 9-11 okay.. However, and this is where my big huge problem is..... she was not with Casey on the night of the 16th, when she was at the movie store with Tony..... She was not even visibly shaken at all, in other words if it were an accident and she freaked out, she certainly got over it really quickly, I mean with in a matter of hours, and never once grieved about the "accident, not at Target, the movie store, Fusion... No where did she show any signs that anything was wrong... so if it was an accident, and she freaked out, didn't know what to do... In my eyes she is still a cold hearted witch, she was over it just like that.. In an instant she was back to being a single childless parting woman with out a care in the world.

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 03:12 PM
When I was very young a friend of mine fell down some concrete stairs. I found her laying at the base of the stairs looking befuddled. I remember that instead of having the appropriate response...I felt embarrassed for her! I went off to play elsewhere and did not tell anyone about what happened! (She was found by someone else and thankfully she didn't die and did not have a serious injury...but she was definitely stunned). That event has always haunted me. WHY didn't I handle that better than I did? What was wrong with me that I had the wrong response?

I believe I would be capable as being as stupid, inappropriate and weird as KC at her age. Because she has such deep neurosis all her life and Caylee's death and all the lawyers, news people and enabling parents are helping her to slip deeper and deeper into full blown psychosis (she exhibits clearly "dissassociative" behavior) .

I know how you feel because when I was a grownup, I reacted in a similar unexplicable way. We had just driven for ten hours and checked into a hotel in NM. My son, who was almost seven, was eager to jump in the pool. I was wearing a long gauzy skirt/full summer dress vs. swimsuit. As I stood there looking at him (he was close to the other side of the pool where, thankfully two couples were lounging) his head went under. My child had been in swimming lessons since he was four. I looked at him as his head bobbed up and called out his name. He was quiet and went under again. I stood there wondering if he was playing a game with me. The man on the lounge chair closest to him dove in and grabbed my son and brought him out of the pool. My son had not taken in any water. The man looked at me strangely while I looked back at him stunned and said 'thank you, thank you'. I think I would have reacted soon and been able to get to my son but what has always haunted me was how quiet he was - no flailing, no voice, no cry for help. If nobody had been right there, no one would have known - just found a child at the bottom of the pool. I had several nightmares after this happened and often shuddered when thinking about how frozen I was and my slow/shoddy judgment.

I asked my son "when I called out to you, why didn't you answer me?" He just said, "I don't know."

The point is, and I don't know if this happened to Caylee, drowning can be a very quiet occurance. If you ever see someone bob under but they don't look to be distressed but they don't call out to you, go in and assist them. Thank God for me that man knew that and didn't sit there to wait to see if my son was going to drown like I was doing. :waitasec:

That is why we cannot leave young children unattended near water, near stoves, etc. You must watch them carefully. It can be exhausting so you must own the responsibility every day.

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 03:22 PM
All due respect........It has been debunked multiple times.......let it go.....IMO

Except, as far as I know, we've never seen the results from any of the filters they took from the A house, or the items they took from the sunroom such as the tablecloth, rug, etc.

The only thing is, if LE thought this a viable theory, why the death penalty. Would they place that penalty for how Caylee's death was handled beyond the drowning? Or maybe then they would conclude that KC actually did drown Caylee because she refuses to offer other explanations other than the kidnapping theory of which you can't explain away her car, the 31 days, etc.

wyome
03-20-2010, 03:31 PM
If it were an accident and Casey "mishandled" the situation by whatever reason not calling 9-11 okay.. However, and this is where my big huge problem is..... she was not with Casey on the night of the 16th, when she was at the movie store with Tony..... She was not even visibly shaken at all, in other words if it were an accident and she freaked out, she certainly got over it really quickly, I mean with in a matter of hours, and never once grieved about the "accident, not at Target, the movie store, Fusion... No where did she show any signs that anything was wrong... so if it was an accident, and she freaked out, didn't know what to do... In my eyes she is still a cold hearted witch, she was over it just like that.. In an instant she was back to being a single childless parting woman with out a care in the world.

This is the thing that really has me puzzled.

Let's go one further and say she murdered Caylee in the 2nd degree -- not premeditated, but choked her to death the evening of the 15th after the alleged "fight". I would assume she'd be visibly shaken at the thought of what she'd done. She'd be shaking, not quite right, zoned-out, or actly oddly....but still we get nothing from her. If it was a heat of the moment "shutting her up" that got out of hand, or a pool accident, you'd think her demeanor would change....because her world had just severely changed.

Which leads me then to a few explanations:
1) she planned this for months (ie the computer searches for Zenaida and neck breaking, etc) She wanted Caylee dead and she found an opportunity.
2) She's a pyschopath who exhibits no empathy or rational fear. So whether it was an accident or a 2nd degree murder, it doesn't matter. She was clearly detached and was not capable of having any emotional response to it.
3) Caylee was not murdered until a later date. Drugged and left in the abandoned home while she made it a Blockbuster night or hung out at Fusian.

#3's a stretch, I know, since there's absolutely no evidence of this. But I'm trying to find an explanation for Casey NOT showing any strong human panic response during such a period.

doogiesgirl
03-20-2010, 03:36 PM
I know how you feel because when I was a grownup, I reacted in a similar unexplicable way. We had just driven for ten hours and checked into a hotel in NM. My son, who was almost seven, was eager to jump in the pool. I was wearing a long gauzy skirt/full summer dress vs. swimsuit. As I stood there looking at him (he was close to the other side of the pool where, thankfully two couples were lounging) his head went under. My child had been in swimming lessons since he was four. I looked at him as his head bobbed up and called out his name. He was quiet and went under again. I stood there wondering if he was playing a game with me. The man on the lounge chair closest to him dove in and grabbed my son and brought him out of the pool. My son had not taken in any water. The man looked at me strangely while I looked back at him stunned and said 'thank you, thank you'. I think I would have reacted soon and been able to get to my son but what has always haunted me was how quiet he was - no flailing, no voice, no cry for help. If nobody had been right there, no one would have known - just found a child at the bottom of the pool. I had several nightmares after this happened and often shuddered when thinking about how frozen I was and my slow/shoddy judgment.

I asked my son "why when I called out to you, did you not answer me?" He just said, "I don't know."

The point is, and I don't know if this happened to Caylee, drowning can be a very quiet occurance. If you every see someone bob under but they don't look to be distressed but they don't call out to you, go in and assist them. Thank God for me that man knew that and didn't sit there to wait to see if my son was going to drown like I was doing. :waitasec:

That is why we cannot leave young children unattended near water, near stoves, etc. You must watch them carefully. It can be exhausting so you must own the responsibility every day.


I had a swimming incident with my youngest son also. He was probably 4 or 5 and had only had maybe one swim class in at the time. I was older when I had him so I was probably around 41 or so. I was sitting with my sisters at a poolside table and my son and his two cousins were swimming near the ladder. It was one of those 5 feet deep pools. I saw my son go under, jumped out of my chair, bent down and as I held on to the ladder I put my other hand under and grabbed him by the arm and pulled him up. Thankfully he was ok. He had little or no experience swimming underwater at that time. I just reacted.

BUT....I honestly can't say I would have reacted the same way if I'd have been in my early 20's. If I'd been in my early 20's I may not have even been watching him. I hate to admit that but it is true. The mother you are in your 20's is NOT the mother you are in your 40's.

So...IDK how KC would've reacted to an accident. I just don't see the accident theory though. To me....it just doesn't jive with the rest of her behavior since Caylee was last seen. In my opinion....there was no accident. It was a willful killing.

MOO

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 03:40 PM
I'll add one more possibility and then everyone can tell me how idiotic I am -

One more possibility - Caylee drowned while under somebody else's watch.

sleutherontheside
03-20-2010, 03:41 PM
During jail video visitation with KC, Ca said something about an accident with the pool....that "people" were saying that is what happened. I think one of the best ways to clear up the topic is to find the "people" who said that to CA.

Now CA also stated somewhere......(please help me find the reference) that the neighbors heard splashing around during the day and that was woven in with the discussion about the gate, and ladder. Who are "those" people?

Do these "people" exist? I would think that if there were an interview that corroborated that story that we would have seen the interview by now. So can someone point me to these "people" to back up CA's jail video statements???

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 03:51 PM
I had a swimming incident with my youngest son also. He was probably 4 or 5 and had only had maybe one swim class in at the time. I was older when I had him so I was probably around 41 or so. I was sitting with my sisters at a poolside table and my son and his two cousins were swimming near the ladder. It was one of those 5 feet deep pools. I saw my son go under, jumped out of my chair, bent down and as I held on to the ladder I put my other hand under and grabbed him by the arm and pulled him up. Thankfully he was ok. He had little or no experience swimming underwater at that time. I just reacted.

BUT....I honestly can't say I would have reacted the same way if I'd have been in my early 20's. If I'd been in my early 20's I may not have even been watching him. I hate to admit that but it is true. The mother you are in your 20's is NOT the mother you are in your 40's.

So...IDK how KC would've reacted to an accident. I just don't see the accident theory though. To me....it just doesn't jive with the rest of her behavior since Caylee was last seen. In my opinion....there was no accident. It was a willful killing.

MOO

So true. Now I really feel bad as I'm an older mom too! I know what you mean though and life goes wrong sometimes even for the most well meaning people.

Something I did do right, because there was early talk about Caylee and bagels. I was on the phone and my son was almost four. I was chatting away and he came in and grabbed something off the kitchen counter and took the fifteen steps back to were the TV was. A minute or two later I walked out there and he was standing still his face a purplie-red color. I immediately took my hooked index finger, inserted it into his mouth and did a finger sweep to the back of his throat. Out came the sodden bagel he had snuck from under my nose off the counter. He took a breath and was fine. I thought 'wow, I didn't even know I knew that.' That time some instinct thingy kicked in. My child kept me hopping when he was young and that's almost an understatement!

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 03:59 PM
During jail video visitation with KC, Ca said something about an accident with the pool....that "people" were saying that is what happened. I think one of the best ways to clear up the topic is to find the "people" who said that to CA.

Now CA also stated somewhere......(please help me find the reference) that the neighbors heard splashing around during the day and that was woven in with the discussion about the gate, and ladder. Who are "those" people?

Do these "people" exist? I would think that if there were an interview that corroborated that story that we would have seen the interview by now. So can someone point me to these "people" to back up CA's jail video statements???

I remember something about this but it never made any sense to me. Who are the neighbors to the right (if you're facing) of the A's house? What have we heard from them?

The neighbor, BB shovel guy, to their left and closest to the pool coincidently arrived home from his vaca to Chicago on June 16, 2008. What time did he arrive home? I remember his interview was one where, at first, he couldn't recall the exact date he returned home. let alone what time. I thought 'don't any of these people use calendars.'

LiveLaughLuv
03-20-2010, 04:29 PM
Cindy's brother said he's frustrated that she believes Casey. In early August reporters asked Cindy Anthony a lot of tough questions about Casey's lies and Eyewitness News has learned Cindy's own brother was asking those same questions.

However, his inquiries ended in a family feud. In an email exchanged in August, Cindy's brother Rick Plesea, who she rarely talked to, told her his theory: "Caylee drowned in the pool, and Casey put Caylee's body in the trunk of her car." and "That is why the dogs hit on the trunk." From there the exchange deteriorated to insults.
http://www.wftv.com/news/18181289/detail.html

USARDOG
03-20-2010, 04:35 PM
While not impossible, I believe KC has shown herself to be quite capable of nearly anything. I am of the opinion that had there actually been an accident, KC would have taken the opportunity to play the grieving mother for years. It would have been quite something to hold over C & G and won eons of sympathy. It was also a much better cover story than, "the nanny took her," but no one ever accused KC of being a genius.

panthera
03-20-2010, 05:32 PM
I'll add one more possibility and then everyone can tell me how idiotic I am -

One more possibility - Caylee drowned while under somebody else's watch.
Well, ironically Cindy was the last known person to be in the pool with Caylee ~ but I don't think this is at all what happened. MOO

USARDOG
03-20-2010, 06:12 PM
I'll add one more possibility and then everyone can tell me how idiotic I am -

One more possibility - Caylee drowned while under somebody else's watch.

Don't believe this is possible as CA & GA idolized Caylee, and I don't believe either so ignorant as to try and cover up an accident. Further, KC IMO, would likely have seized on the opportunity to make who ever was watching Caylee feel the guilt into perpetuity.

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 06:23 PM
If the A's had not acted strange regarding their interviews with LE, the public denials and told outright lies, I'm sure I never would have questioned them one bit. The stranger their behavior got, the more I :waitasec: thought what in the world are they hiding? Then, I got wind of how controlling CA is (even if SHE thinks she's doing good) and I thought 'maybe this woman's pride is bigger than anything'.

Skully
03-20-2010, 06:28 PM
Okay, what if it wasn't the pool and it was the car? How could KC ever tell CA and GA that she left Caylee in a hot car while she chatted on the phone and forgot about her daughter? I really think that KC would rather fake a kidnapping than face her mother and dad. JMO. I also think she is a psychopath and that is the reason she could just rent a movie with Tony afterwards. He said she was shaken IIRC that night about something. She may have killed her, IDK, but if it was an accident that made her look bad to her mom and dad, she would lie. LIke she did, and is still doing.

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 07:05 PM
Okay, what if it wasn't the pool and it was the car? How could KC ever tell CA and GA that she left Caylee in a hot car while she chatted on the phone and forgot about her daughter? I really think that KC would rather fake a kidnapping than face her mother and dad. JMO. I also think she is a psychopath and that is the reason she could just rent a movie with Tony afterwards. He said she was shaken IIRC that night about something. She may have killed her, IDK, but if it was an accident that made her look bad to her mom and dad, she would lie. LIke she did, and is still doing.

Could be. Now I feel that they know the truth though or at least some version of it and they've know it for a long time imo.

drip~drop
03-20-2010, 07:29 PM
Okay, what if it wasn't the pool and it was the car? How could KC ever tell CA and GA that she left Caylee in a hot car while she chatted on the phone and forgot about her daughter? I really think that KC would rather fake a kidnapping than face her mother and dad. JMO. I also think she is a psychopath and that is the reason she could just rent a movie with Tony afterwards. He said she was shaken IIRC that night about something. She may have killed her, IDK, but if it was an accident that made her look bad to her mom and dad, she would lie. LIke she did, and is still doing.

If it was an accident (and I don't know if I believe that) I think it would be high time, after sitting in jail for 2 years to just say so.
Death Penalty......truth....hmmmm.
IMO, MOTY did something on purpose.

Jolynna
03-20-2010, 07:38 PM
As far as I am concerned, 3 strips of duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose rules out any possibility of an accidental death. There is no logical reason to put tape over another human's mouth or nose except to stop that human from screaming or breathing (paraphrased from a ruling by the Florida Supreme Court--Huck v. Florida).

No parent has ever duct taped over their dead child's mouth and nose as a "rite of passage". Not ever. I challenge anyone to find a single case where this has happened.

As far as staging a kidnapping, 3 pieces of duct tape is taping for effectiveness, not staging. Television kidnappers just stick a strip over the mouth to get the point across.

In Casey's first bond hearing, Yuri said that when he first interviewed Casey she didn't use the word kidnapped. Lee and Cindy didn't say Casey said Caylee "had been kidnapped". They said Casey said she hadn't seen Caylee in 31 days. Cindy is attributed to saying "Who took her?" and suggesting somebody "took" Caylee. In all of those 31 days Casey never once hinted to anyone that her imaginary nanny was acting strangely or a bit "off". Shoot...even while Casey was at Universal she tried to downplay Caylee's peril to LE by saying she'd talk Caylee the day before. And Caylee was happy and fine when Casey talked to her.

Casey's entire cover-up strategy was to hide out, make up stories about who she was with and win over her new obsession. I think in Casey's mind, once she landed her "perfect love" all else would fall into place and she and Tony would go off into the sunset and into beautiful lives. Mom and dad could be placated with more lies just until Tony was hooked enough to replace them and take care of her (the way the prince in Fairy tales always does).

jmo

USARDOG
03-20-2010, 07:51 PM
Okay, what if it wasn't the pool and it was the car? How could KC ever tell CA and GA that she left Caylee in a hot car while she chatted on the phone and forgot about her daughter? I really think that KC would rather fake a kidnapping than face her mother and dad. JMO. I also think she is a psychopath and that is the reason she could just rent a movie with Tony afterwards. He said she was shaken IIRC that night about something. She may have killed her, IDK, but if it was an accident that made her look bad to her mom and dad, she would lie. LIke she did, and is still doing.

And face the death penalty? Not likely. IMO, the most likely cause of her actions after Caylee's death is, KC is responsible.

Jolynna
03-20-2010, 08:10 PM
George and Cindy have made it very clear that their love is unconditional and that they will forgive Casey no matter what. They've said it. They opened the door and brought up the swimming pool. LE opened up the accident door. Before Caylee's body was found, the door was open with the state for a deal.

I believe Casey didn't go that route, despite the opportunities, because she'd have to tell where Caylee was and there was duct tape all over Caylee's face. Plus, Casey might not have known that if she only chloroformed Caylee once, just before Caylee's death, the chloroform wouldn't have had time to go through Caylee's system and into her hair and bones. (that is, if Casey mercifully put Caylee to sleep before she killed her). I don't think Casey went with an accident theory, first, because it didn't happen, and more importantly, because she thought she'd left behind too many tell-tale signs of how Caylee died.

jmo

seekingjustice**
03-20-2010, 08:12 PM
We know she had plans to go to AL's that night, which did not include Caylee. She told GA she would be working late, and wouldn't be home that night. An accident, I don't think so! Sounds like pre-meditation to me.

BondJamesBond
03-20-2010, 08:27 PM
Anyone willing to do the legwork on each of our sources of info about the ladder?

IIRC, we have:

1) Mark Fuhrman relayed in a Fox w/ GVS video piece, and perhaps in his statement, G&C's account to him 'bout the ladder being up. IIRC, his version asserts it was noted by G&9 on Tuesday, 6/17, along w/ the unlatched gate.

2) Tracy M's account as told to her by the G&C&C trio in the kitchen while out on bond. This tale has Casey fishing the ladder outta the pool with the shovel...silly :rolleyes: putting it on shovel day, 6/18, IIRC :waitasec: I have a post on Tracy's thread summarizing this one. I'll bring it over later tonight if someone else does't beat me to it.

3) George's account, which does the best job of giving us some objective events we can use to determine candidate dates against. (Psssst. I'm making this statement like I know what I'm talkin' 'bout, when really I'm just lifting the observation from JWG ;))

4) LP. Only bringing this one up 'cause IIRC, LP claimed @ one time to be 'round when G&C were giving Mark the story 'bout the fight (and perhaps the ladder @ the same time...I really don't recall). And LP seems to claim that he knows something 'bout everything....so I'm just expecting he's thrown in his :twocents: x 10 @ some point in time, and I don't wanna rob (pun intended) his fans of the cance to remind me how much we should all love him :)

5) Others? Surely someone is payin, closer attention than I am. :bang:

Alright then. Appreciate to the extent your all willing to entertain a request to focus on naiiling down the best candidate dates (and times if possible) that the ladder was discovered up. Then we can expand on what these dates might tell us 'bout the ladder being up :waitasec::

sleutherontheside
03-20-2010, 09:03 PM
BJB.....I am working on it now.....GA's interview from 7-24-08 is very telling. At quick review (I am re-reading it) he states the info about the pool ladder was after the gas can incident. And that his wife told him about it....but when the interview goes in that direction GA TOTALLY shifts the topic...page 27 of the interview...
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/110608georgeanthony/1/lg/48-2008-CF-015606-O_CASEY_ANTHONY_PG._1733-1803_Page_31.htm

Page 35 of same interview...GA states "this is the day the trash cans...ummmm the cans had been taken".

Page 39 discusses that CA and GA were brainstorming and CA said to GA..."there's got to be more to this mess....George remember that day I found the ladder down and the gate?"

AZlawyer
03-20-2010, 09:18 PM
George's State Deposition:
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21310228/detail.html

pp. 303-304:

George was working the 3-11 shift at his old job (Security Forces) on Pool Ladder Day. He usually tried to call Cindy around 6:00 or 6:30 to make sure she was home OK. He called and Cindy said "Hey, thanks for leaving the gate open" [presumably using her best sarcastic voice]. She also said that the pool ladder was on the pool. He told her he didn't do it.

AZlawyer
03-20-2010, 09:31 PM
George's evening cell phone calls to Cindy or to the home phone 6/16/08-6/30/08 (I think 6/30 was George's last day at his old job):

6/25 at 7:42 pm, 2 minute call to the house.
6/29 at 5:34 pm, 3 minute call to the house.
6/30 at 6:05 pm, 1 minute call to the house.


6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm.
6/26 George got a call on his cell FROM Cindy at 6:09 pm.


ETA: 3 evening calls to Cindy in 2 weeks? How is that a routine??

ETA 2: I believe George was working each of these days (including Sunday the 29th).

ETA 3: But George's statement makes it sound like Cindy was working too that day. So we can eliminate the 29th if we're inclined to believe him. Also the 30th, because Cindy was off that week. That leaves the 23rd, 25th, and 26th, with the 25th the only one that actually fits George's statement.

AZlawyer
03-20-2010, 09:51 PM
Cindy's calls on the 25th after getting home and (perhaps?) finding the pool ladder up and the gate open:

Brittany S. (6:04 pm, 2 min.)
JP C**** (6:13 pm, 1 min. or less)
Casey (6:29 pm left message, followed by 6:36 pm 16-min. conversation in which Casey presumably denies (a) being in Orlando, (b) leaving the pool ladder up).

So Cindy decides it was George and waits for him to call so she can b**** at him about it.

As I have detailed in the "Cindy's Attempts to Contact Zanny" thread, IMO Cindy had Brittany's number in her address book as the number for "Juliet L," and she had JP's number in her address book as the number for "Juliet's mom." This is important because, on June 25, Cindy thought that Juliet was watching Caylee in a Tampa hotel room while Casey was at the hospital with Zanny.

If this was Pool Ladder Day, IMO there was something VERY WRONG in the back yard or house BESIDES an open gate and the pool ladder being up, because Cindy's immediate reaction was not to call George or Casey but to try to call CAYLEE--or at least the person who was supposedly watching Caylee. Under what circumstances would you be desperate to get a 2-year-old girl on the phone? I don't think it was to get an explanation for the pool ladder being up...I think it was because Cindy saw/found something that made her think Caylee was DEAD and she wanted to hear her voice RIGHT THEN.

There are no pings for Casey near the Anthonys' that day, but there are some "gaps" in the pings, in which she might have stopped by the house. The only really "safe" time for her to go that day (half an hour "buffers" between George leaving and Cindy arriving) would have been 3:30-5:00 pm. From the ping gaps, she could possibly have been there around 3:30-4:00.

sleutherontheside
03-20-2010, 10:02 PM
I also find suspect that in his interview on 7/24/08 GA references that on the first night that the police were at the house that he and CA were "brainstorming" and that CA reminds him..."remember that time with the pool ladder". If you are under the assumption that your grandchild has been kidnapped by a ficticious nanny or that "someone has taken her"....why are you theorizing about a pool ladder.

Also found a few very "juicy" quotes regarding JB being retained......but that's for the other thread.

affinity
03-20-2010, 10:04 PM
I don't think it was to get an explanation for the pool ladder being up...I think it was because Cindy saw/found something that made her think Caylee was DEAD and she wanted to hear her voice RIGHT THEN.

I read this theory somewhere else--and it is logical (that something was located in the back yard to ramp up CA's concern). What kinds of things would do that? A large amound of upchuck? blood? a tooth? (so sorry to be so graphic)--but when I read it I wondered what the sluether thought. Personally, since CA is quite a lot like my own Mother--I can see simply the passage of time as being the "ramp up" factor. When my Mother wanted something--anything--she was like CA--like an armadillo that bites and does not let go until the answer is given. No need for any particular event..except her own mind thinking "WHY can't I talk to Caylee!??"

Jolynna
03-20-2010, 10:15 PM
I can't find a transcript of Mark Fuhrman's OTR interview on 8-6-08 which talked about the calls and pool ladder. WS did have a thread about it:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68894&highlight=FURHMAN

1st post of the thread from Patty G:

Just got finish briefly watching OTR show 8/6/08 with Mark Furhman

6/15/2008 - Cindy and Casey take a swim in the pool, come out, take the ladder away.
My question: Where was Caylee when Cindy and Casey went in the pool? Was George home and watching Caylee, was Caylee in the house sleeping?

6/16/2008 - Casey and Caylee in the house. Cindy already at work.
My question: What time does Cindy start work?

6/16/08 - George sees Casey and Caylee at 12:50 PM with backpacks on their way out the door.
My question: Did George see Caylee have lunch, breakfast, use potty, bath, playing etc.? A child may get up at 7:00 AM to almost 1:00 PM that 6 hours of unaccountable time in that household. Is there a bathroom in Casey's room?

6/16/08 - George leaves for work at 2:30 PM

6/16/08 - starting at 3:00 PM and ending at 4:00 PM there are numerous phone calls from Casey to her father, mother and friends. Quick phone calls although cellphone records would show a minute because you are charged a minute even if the call is 2 seconds.

My question: How far is it from the Anthony household to George's employment? Did George really have a job at that time? (Cindy said at the bond hearing George just started a new job on July 15th.) Why didn't George have his cellphone on? Could it be because of "pings" re" his whereabouts?

Thinking out loud: All these phone calls are within 2 hours after Casey left her parents house with Caylee. I find it very odd, that Cindy and George didn't answer Casey's calls within that hour. I know they both maybe at work, but most folks working leave their cell phones on "perhaps" on vibrator mode" so they know when they get a phone call. George is suppose to be en-route to his house and Casey starts calling Cindy/George etc. at 3:00 PM.

6/16/08 - starting at 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Casey starts calling Cindy, George and others and no connection. Just minutes phone calls which could be just a few second phone calls.

6/16/08 - No more phone calls were made after 7:30 PM.

6/17/08 - Anthony's "allegedly" notice that the ladder was back in the pool and the gate to the pool was open.
Repectfully snipped...WFTV article from September 8 [/quote]

THEORY SUGGESTS CAYLEE ANTHONY MAY HAVE DROWNED IN FAMILY POOL
http://www.wftv.com/news/17136493/detail.html

From WFTV shortly after drowning article ran:

CINDY RESPONDS TO DROWNING THEORY
http://www.wftv.com/video/17137073/index.html

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 10:51 PM
Don't believe this is possible as CA & GA idolized Caylee, and I don't believe either so ignorant as to try to cover up an accident. Further, KC IMO, would likely have seized on the opportunity to make who ever was watching Caylee feel the guilt into perpetuity.

BBM - It seems to me that I've been watching the A's cover something up all along. Ignorant may not be the right word but they have not been honest; about what, I don't know.

Sorry USARDOG, I didn't read ahead before I responded AGAIN. I hadn't realized I already replied.

Jolynna
03-20-2010, 11:04 PM
Cindy's calls on the 25th after getting home and (perhaps?) finding the pool ladder up and the gate open:

Brittany S. (6:04 pm, 2 min.)
JP C**** (6:13 pm, 1 min. or less)
Casey (6:29 pm left message, followed by 6:36 pm 16-min. conversation in which Casey presumably denies (a) being in Orlando, (b) leaving the pool ladder up).

So Cindy decides it was George and waits for him to call so she can b**** at him about it.

As I have detailed in the "Cindy's Attempts to Contact Zanny" thread, IMO Cindy had Brittany's number in her address book as the number for "Juliet L," and she had JP's number in her address book as the number for "Juliet's mom." This is important because, on June 25, Cindy thought that Juliet was watching Caylee in a Tampa hotel room while Casey was at the hospital with Zanny.

If this was Pool Ladder Day, IMO there was something VERY WRONG in the back yard or house BESIDES an open gate and the pool ladder being up, because Cindy's immediate reaction was not to call George or Casey but to try to call CAYLEE--or at least the person who was supposedly watching Caylee. Under what circumstances would you be desperate to get a 2-year-old girl on the phone? I don't think it was to get an explanation for the pool ladder being up...I think it was because Cindy saw/found something that made her think Caylee was DEAD and she wanted to hear her voice RIGHT THEN.

There are no pings for Casey near the Anthonys' that day, but there are some "gaps" in the pings, in which she might have stopped by the house. The only really "safe" time for her to go that day (half an hour "buffers" between George leaving and Cindy arriving) would have been 3:30-5:00 pm. From the ping gaps, she could possibly have been there around 3:30-4:00.

I can see why Cindy would be upset if her pool ladder was moved on June 25. The day before when Casey was supposed to be in Tampa with Zanny, George and Casey had had the gas can incident. Supposedly Casey was only in town picking up insurance papers. She DIDN'T have Caylee with her. Casey picked up some clothes for herself but didn't get clothes or anything for Caylee. Then on June 25, if the pool ladder was moved, somebody had again been at the Anthony house. WTH...Casey broke the lock to the shed on June 23rd, she was back in the house on June 24 throwing gas cans at George and NOW she is sneaking back into the house again? Did Zani really have all those clothes for Caylee?

Thils was the longest Cindy had ever been away from Caylee. She had to be missing her like crazy and Casey wasn't letting her talk to Caylee. What better way was there to check up on what was going on with Casey than to go behind Casey's back and call the babysitter and ALSO TALK to Caylee? So what if Casey didn't want Cindy talking to Caylee.

When the number didn't work out, I think Cindy thought it was because of Casey's sneakiness and the rivalry between them. Cindy may have thought Casey was holed up with some man, she'd been texting and cooing lovey-dovey talk (according to Tony) into her cell phone. That would have been a big clue to a man in the bushes somewhere. Cindy could have thought this was their same old fighting with the new twist of Casey actually having found a safe-from-her-haven. After trying unsuccessfully to call the babysitter when Casey promised to come home the next day, Cindy most likely hoped it would happen and forced herself to be nice. She wouldn't have wanted to do anything to make Casey go out-of-touch while Casey had Caylee and was obviously being sheltered by somebody. Especially since Casey was promising the ordeal was almost over.

The next week, after Casey had stood Cindy up over and over and not come home with Caylee, Cindy again lost it.

Baznme
03-20-2010, 11:36 PM
Just my take on things but, I think the timeline as to when whatever happened has been finely narrowed down by a lot of sharp websleuthers here. The when doesn't concern me so much anymore as much as to what actually happened. I do believe she drowned in the pool but I don't think it was any accident. I think she put her in the pool AFTER the chloroform was administered in whatever fashion she was accustomed. One of the last photos, if not the very last photo of Caylee taken sitting in her carseat in the back of the car with the little baseball cap on and her little doll with her haunts me over and over. She had that look on her face as is she was associating that carseat with an unwelcome anticipated experience that was going to occur although she could not describe it being so little. My guess is the chloroform. I've seen several pic's of Caylee with dark circles under her eyes. I wonder if that could be a tell-tale sign of what frequent use of the chemical would do to a person. To make a long story shorter, I feel she was given the chloroform and then put into the pool. I thought for so long this was just an accident and KC was just too afraid to admit she was negligent as a mother but now after all this time and her seeming lack of remorse, I lean very much toward a deliberate, easy means of eliminating the millstone around her neck, which was Caylee. Poor child was so precious and she had so many others that already loved her so. When I see KC now in the courtroom, I feel total disgust. Someone taught her a long time ago that she was entitled to do whatever she wanted to do without consequence for her actions or a sense of responsibility to anyone else. Not even the child she brought into this world. She used this child at every opportunity to gain the attention of others and would have done Caylee a great service had she signed custody over to CA and GA early on and skipped on out of town. She could have taken several other avenues other than the one she chose. She was encouraged to do so in the beginning of this case by the investigators to admit if it was an accident. After the case ended up breaking wide open she is still he$$ bent on running everyone around trying to find the ficticious zanny. Pathological liars tend to believe their own lies because they've never had to nor ever wanted to face the realities this world dishes out. It's amazing to witness all the energy and intellect they put into their stories, it makes you think "if they would only put that much into a productive life", how fine it could be yet, it looks like she's going to run the course of "her truth" right up to the last day at trial when a verdict may be read that could very well end her life. How ironic is that?

Woe.be.gone
03-20-2010, 11:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEbEbmG9DRs&feature=related

Mark Furhman talking to Greta on August 6, 2008 while LE was searching the Anthony home using blacklights and other methods.

At 6:09 Greta asks MF about the ladder.

He states the ladder was noticed up by the pool Tuesday morning.
The gate was open Tuesday morning.
Nobody swam since Sunday, the 15th.
CA put the ladder up Sunday, the 15.
MF says all three - CA, KC and Caylee swam Sunday which differs from what I remember CA saying. She said KC didn't swim as it was too cold so she sat at the table.

MH's version differs from what I first heard CA claim - she noticed the ladder up on a day when she returned home from work not in the morning. We can check this when we find the interviews.

strawberry
03-21-2010, 10:02 AM
Can someone explain "the gate" to me? I never knew what that meant? A gate in a fence dividing the back yard from the front yard or a fence around the pool (which I don't recall seeing).

BondJamesBond
03-21-2010, 10:33 AM
There is a gate in the fence beside the garage. It can be seen in pics & vids of LEO's taking K9s into the backyard 7/17. Also see the Anthony floor plans thread graphic. HTH.

Skully
03-21-2010, 10:50 AM
There is a gate in the fence beside the garage. It can be seen in pics & vids of LEO's taking K9s into the backyard 7/17. Also see the Anthony floor plans thread graphic. HTH.

Thanks BJB for your logical thinking once again on this subject. I don't always know how to show why I believe some of the things I do :angel: I also have to wonder if Caylee was in the car, left unattended, her body could have been very hot and KC could have panicked and thought if she put her in the pool it would cool her down or bring her back. Just throwing stuff out. People don't react the way we think they should and KC has reacted so crazy this whole time, I am just trying to see if it is possible, this is what happened.

BondJamesBond
03-21-2010, 11:41 AM
Editorial note: For folks that might just be popping into this thread, please note that the current focus is on sleuthing out the true ladder date and what THAT might tell us, if anything, about what really happened.

IOW, we have a lot of info from different souces provided at different times, and cetrainly with different motivations. I'm still catching up, but, AZ and SotS are on the path of connecting the ladder story to something objective (I.e. Phone records). Pls read back to those posts.

IOW...we're not trying to gen a buncha new posts saying that the drowning/accident is BS. OK?

Where this post falls is totally random.

Sleuth on!

BTW: Do we have George's timecards for late June handy to match up w/ AZ's dates & times for phone calls?

ETA: I updated the thread title to help focus on the ladder.

sleutherontheside
03-21-2010, 12:44 PM
Just for reference point in the June 25-30 range.........June 24th is the date that Jesse Grund originally said he heard Caylee on the phone.

treeseeker
03-21-2010, 12:48 PM
I might be misremembering, but didn't one of Cindy's co-workers mention the pool ladder story (that Cindy told her and/or was concerned about it) during her interview? I did a search, but don't recall her name.

sleutherontheside
03-21-2010, 01:22 PM
Valhalls timeline shows June 17th as the day the pool ladder was discovered and the storage box moved over near the pool.

GA in his LE interview originally stated this happened AFTER the gas can incident on the 24th......but later he and CA state it was 6-17.

USARDOG
03-21-2010, 02:24 PM
BBM - It seems to me that I've been watching the A's cover something up all along. Ignorant may not be the right word but they have not been honest; about what, I don't know.

Sorry USARDOG, I didn't read ahead before I responded AGAIN. I hadn't realized I already replied.

I agree with you 100% however, I don't think they are implicated in the death, rather, not telling what they knew to the police about the ladder, KC behavior, the smell in the car, and last but not certainly not least, getting behind KC's ridiculous, "Zanny the nanny did it," story. CA had me standing in traffic, in the hot Dallas sun passing out kidnapped Caylee posters and all the while I strongly believe she knew, or at lease strongly suspected Caylee hadn't been kidnapped at all.

sleutherontheside
03-21-2010, 02:35 PM
8197

Believes it was a few days before the gas can incident........My question is......GA in his interview on 7/24/08 states the pool incident was after the gas can incident. Was he trying to cover at that point??? http://www.momlogic.com/blog_content/casey_caylee_documents/witnessreport_casey.pdf

BondJamesBond
03-21-2010, 02:55 PM
Thread title updated to help focus on the ladder now that the power has been vested in me to do so. ;)

I deleted a few posts that made the recommendation or alluded to the need to do it.

Feel free to bump this post if we wander back onto the "Taste great! Less filling!" beaten path.

Some excellent sleuthin' goin' on! :thumb: Warms my heart. :)

Now...how 'bout that pesky ladder? Carry on!

sleutherontheside
03-21-2010, 03:09 PM
Debbie Bennett Interview with LE....Pool Discussion on page 13. States that a few days before the gas can incident that CA told her that she came home and let the dogs out and was worried they would get out.
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974353/detail.html

Woe.be.gone
03-21-2010, 04:30 PM
In the beginning of the case I began taking some notes because CA's TV interviews intrigued me. I didn't know about WS yet but found it by googling in August 2008. I signed in the last day of 2008. Here are my initial notes based on my first impressions as a TV viewer not a sleuther.

1. "I don't want to loose my husband." said to media by CA. (Had me :waitasec:.)

2. GA and KC knew what happened on June 16. (my opinion back then.)

3. CA was filled in later. She is protecting GA, not KC necessarily.

4. All three of them are lying and have been since July 18 (CA maybe later).
GA knew all along that Caylee was gone.

The above notes were my IMPRESSIONS as I was drawn in by the story.

On the back of the page where I wrote the notes above, I found the following paragraphs that I wrote after I joined WS and was blogging. They are:

"I remember an early report on T.V. wherein Cindy claimed she and Caylee swam in the pool the evering of June 15. She explained how they always moved the ladder away from the pool after a swim. She mentioned Casey did not swim (didn't feel like it and sat at the kitchen table).

Also I recall a report that the ladder was found up against the pool and gate open on the 17th of June when George and Cindy RETURNED HOME FROM WORK THAT EVENING."

Had I known better back then, I would have jotted down the sources - what T.V. interview? News clip? etc.
Also I believe the report about the ladder being up on the 17th was told to LE via a phone call CA initiated to them specifically to advise them that she remembers this incident.

Does anybody have the links that substantiate the above? There is a large enough time gap between June 17 and June 25 to cause one to wonder why. Also the date CA called LE to report her recall is significant. Anything discussed beyond that would be to clarify or update the earliest report I would think.

So far Mark F. reports that the pool ladder being up was noticed on June 17th in the morning. It's not clear who MF gathered that info from (obviously CA or GA but he didn't say who told him that during his report on Gretta).

I know I heard CA report that they ladder and gate incidence was noticed on June 17th in the evening.

The above is the first descrepancy I'm sure of. I can't find where GA is claiming the later ladder/gates dates.

Skully
03-21-2010, 05:38 PM
In the beginning of the case I began taking some notes because CA's TV interviews intrigued me. I didn't know about WS yet but found it by googling in August 2008. I signed in the last day of 2008. Here are my initial notes based on my first impressions as a TV viewer not a sleuther.

1. "I don't want to loose my husband." said to media by CA. (Had me :waitasec:.)

2. GA and KC knew what happened on June 16. (my opinion back then.)

3. CA was filled in later. She is protecting GA, not KC necessarily.

4. All three of them are lying and have been since July 18 (CA maybe later).
GA knew all along that Caylee was gone.

The above notes were my IMPRESSIONS as I was drawn in by the story.

On the back of the page where I wrote the notes above, I found the following paragraphs that I wrote after I joined WS and was blogging. They are:

"I remember an early report on T.V. wherein Cindy claimed she and Caylee swam in the pool the evering of June 15. She explained how they always moved the ladder away from the pool after a swim. She mentioned Casey did not swim (didn't feel like it and sat at the kitchen table).

Also I recall a report that the ladder was found up against the pool and gate open on the 17th of June when George and Cindy RETURNED HOME FROM WORK THAT EVENING."

Had I known better back then, I would have jotted down the sources - what T.V. interview? News clip? etc.
Also I believe the report about the ladder being up on the 17th was told to LE via a phone call CA initiated to them specifically to advise them that she remembers this incident.

Does anybody have the links that substantiate the above? There is a large enough time gap between June 17 and June 25 to cause one to wonder why. Also the date CA called LE to report her recall is significant. Anything discussed beyond that would be to clarify or update the earliest report I would think.

So far Mark F. reports that the pool ladder being up was noticed on June 17th in the morning. It's not clear who MF gathered that info from (obviously CA or GA but he didn't say who told him that during his report on Gretta).

I know I heard CA report that they ladder and gate incidence was noticed on June 17th in the evening.

The above is the first descrepancy I'm sure of. I can't find where GA is claiming the later ladder/gates dates.

BBM

I remember that statement too! Was it the GVS interview? That was one of the first interviews that showed us the house and around the pool area. I don't know where that video is now.....:waitasec:

Woe.be.gone
03-21-2010, 06:01 PM
Debbie Bennett Interview with LE....Pool Discussion on page 13. States that a few days before the gas can incident that CA told her that she came home and let the dogs out and was worried they would get out.
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974353/detail.html[/quote]

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974353/detail.html

sleutherontheside, I'm going to type out the conversation as this is significant - great find. Page 13 and 14. Yuri talking to Debbie B. who is CA's coworker at Gentiva. Interview on November 24, 2008.

Y - Did she seek counseling in June or July?

DB - says she found out when the daughter had been gone a week or so and she was missing her daughter from that point on. And then the gas can situation, where she had thought someone swimming in her pool.

DB - I think that was around Father's Day I want to say, yeah. Ah...

Y - The gas can incident was...I'll tell you that that was the 23rd of June.

DB - Oh okay.

Y - So, that was right at the end of June.

DB - Okay

Y - You mentioned something about the pool and so I want to touch on that.

DB - Yeah. Yeah.

Y - You said she, she told you. . .

DB - She came into work that day and said that she thought someone was swimming in her pool. And I looked at her and said, that's what people do is swim in the pool. And she goes no you don't understand someone's been in the pool but I haven't been home. And I said what makes you think that? And she said she came home one day and I guess the side gate was open 'cause she lets her dogs out.

Y - Un-huh (affirmative)

DB - and I guess the dogs started to go out and she was worried she was gonna lose her dogs. And then um, the ladder was off the pool and it's an above ground pool. And she said she always takes the ladder off and puts it away from the pool so that the child doesn't get in the pool.

Y - When did this conversation take place in relationship to the gas can incident? Was it before or after do you remember?

DB - Before because then I found out I want to say that was one day and then a couple of days later then she came back and said someone's been in my yard again. Someone's been in our shed George is calling the police ..


Cindy tells Debbie the morning of June 23 about the gas cans because that was the day that GA called the police. Does that mean that the gas cans were noticed missing on June 22? Or did GA call CA at work and tell her this in the AM on the 23rd? (I know this has been sleuthed because KC shows up later at the house with the gas cans on the 23rd and it is believed that CA tipped KC off which doesn't make much sense to me). Did we ever determine how CA knew that the gas cans were missing considering she leaves for work early in the morning? Or is GA building a case/trail for yard invasion? Why did GA later report to LE how he found the cans in KC's trunk later that day on the 23rd but he never called LE to tell them that when he did.

The SIGNIFICANT thing is that Debbie was able to recall that the ladder/gate story took place BEFORE June 23rd which is consistent with what CA has reported. DB doesn't confirm the day as June 17 though. Debbie would have likely heard about the ladder on June 18 if the ladder/gate observation took place on June 17 as per CA. That would be a full week earlier than gas can day.* :waitasec:

*Noting, I'm happy Debbie recalls that the ladder incident took place BEFORE the gas can incident considering she is being asked questions about her conversations with Cindy five months after they took place.


ADDING: http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/files/george_anthony_burglary.pdf
I copied the above as it appears in the Docs. The gas can report is dated June 24, 2008. Proof as per linked copy here.

LambChop
03-21-2010, 06:58 PM
Maybe KC was in the yard and needed to wash off the smell of decomposition and did not want to do it in the house, started to drag out the ladder then changed her mind and drug over the container instead. No reason the put the ladder away as she knew Caylee was not coming home. JMO

AZlawyer
03-21-2010, 06:58 PM
Debbie Bennett Interview with LE....Pool Discussion on page 13. States that a few days before the gas can incident that CA told her that she came home and let the dogs out and was worried they would get out.
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974353/detail.html


The 23rd is the day that Casey actually took the gas cans. The 24th is the day George noticed and called the police (and later that day Casey returned the f***ing cans).

The only day that fits Debbie's recollection that Pool Ladder Day was shortly before the day that George called the police about the gas cans--and also fits George's recollection that he learned of the pool ladder incident during a phone call with Cindy shortly after she got home and while he was at work at Security Forces--is June 23.

6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm. George's recollection was that he had learned of the pool ladder situation when HE called Cindy, but perhaps this is not such a big discrepancy.

I had assumed that Cindy was not at the house at 5:23 pm when she called George, because she called the house phone at 5:21 pm (then Casey's cell phone at 5:22 pm) before calling George. But I suppose she could have hit the wrong speed dial for Casey and accidentally called the house. It really doesn't make much sense for her to have been calling the house phone otherwise, as she would have thought no one was home.

After the 2 calls to George, Cindy again called Casey. After trading calls a couple of times, she eventually spoke to Casey for 11 minutes at 5:35 pm.

At 5:50 pm, Cindy called her mother (Shirley P) from the house phone for 4 minutes, so she was definitely at the house by then.

I'm starting to think the 23rd was Pool Ladder Day, which would mean that Casey left the pool ladder up and the gate open on the same day that she and Tony broke open the shed to get the gas cans. But Tony said nothing about Casey using the pool for anything that day.... :waitasec:

BondJamesBond
03-21-2010, 07:24 PM
You guys rock! :rocker:

Woe.be.gone
03-21-2010, 08:10 PM
The 23rd is the day that Casey actually took the gas cans. The 24th is the day George noticed and called the police (and later that day Casey returned the f***ing cans).

The only day that fits Debbie's recollection that Pool Ladder Day was shortly before the day that George called the police about the gas cans--and also fits George's recollection that he learned of the pool ladder incident during a phone call with Cindy shortly after she got home and while he was at work at Security Forces--is June 23.

6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm. George's recollection was that he had learned of the pool ladder situation when HE called Cindy, but perhaps this is not such a big discrepancy.

I had assumed that Cindy was not at the house at 5:23 pm when she called George, because she called the house phone at 5:21 pm (then Casey's cell phone at 5:22 pm) before calling George. But I suppose she could have hit the wrong speed dial for Casey and accidentally called the house. It really doesn't make much sense for her to have been calling the house phone otherwise, as she would have thought no one was home.

After the 2 calls to George, Cindy again called Casey. After trading calls a couple of times, she eventually spoke to Casey for 11 minutes at 5:35 pm.

At 5:50 pm, Cindy called her mother (Shirley P) from the house phone for 4 minutes, so she was definitely at the house by then.

I'm starting to think the 23rd was Pool Ladder Day, which would mean that Casey left the pool ladder up and the gate open on the same day that she and Tony broke open the shed to get the gas cans. But Tony said nothing about Casey using the pool for anything that day.... :waitasec:

Yes, thank you. I noticed that confusion too so I've added a copy of the police report to my post showing the date of June 24, 2008 that GA actually called LE about the missing cans. YM tells DB that gas can day was the 23rd but he may have been thinking about the day KC must have taken the cans. I typed the interview as I read it.

Jolynna
03-21-2010, 08:39 PM
Respectfully snipped...


Cindy tells Debbie the morning of June 23 about the gas cans because that was the day that GA called the police. Does that mean that the gas cans were noticed missing on June 22? Or did GA call CA at work and tell her this in the AM on the 23rd? (I know this has been sleuthed because KC shows up later at the house with the gas cans on the 23rd and it is believed that CA tipped KC off which doesn't make much sense to me). Did we ever determine how CA knew that the gas cans were missing considering she leaves for work early in the morning? Or is GA building a case/trail for yard invasion? Why did GA later report to LE how he found the cans in KC's trunk later that day on the 23rd but he never called LE to tell them that when he did.

The SIGNIFICANT thing is that Debbie was able to recall that the ladder/gate story took place BEFORE June 23rd which is consistent with what CA has reported. DB doesn't confirm the day as June 17 though. Debbie would have likely heard about the ladder on June 18 if the ladder/gate observation took place on June 17 as per CA. That would be a full week earlier than gas can day.* :waitasec:

*Noting, I'm happy Debbie recalls that the ladder incident took place BEFORE the gas can incident considering she is being asked questions about her conversations with Cindy five months after they took place.


ADDING: http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/files/george_anthony_burglary.pdf
I copied the above as it appears in the Docs. The gas can report is dated June 24, 2008. Proof as per linked copy here.

In response to the part I bolded:

George said in his state deposition that he told Cindy that about the gas can burglary the morning of June 24. He said he and Cindy talked about the can cans being taken again that day when they met up at the bank to cash a stimulous check.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/080509%20George%20Anthony%20Depo%20Pgs%20151%20-%20200.pdf
Page 40

Woe.be.gone
03-21-2010, 09:16 PM
I think this interview took place on July 31, 1008. I have to check this because the written transcript is not dated as it was transcribed initially from an Audio interview. (Interview was conducted on July 31, 2008 per post No. 72/official docs. thread.)

Page 39 of transcript

GA says the 24th is gas can day
he was last in the shed the 22nd, Sunday, the 22nd early afternoon.

Around 10:30AM on the 24th shed doors open and gas was gone.
Called Sheriff's Dept.

Later the same day he met CA at bank to deposit stimulus check. Got back home around 2:25 or 2:30PM. 4:30-5:00PM garage door goes up - KC comes in the house.


Pg. 43, line 21 - KC says 'here's your F'ing cans'.

GA says he calls CA later.

Pg. 78 - GA - um, is my daughter not telling the truth? Yeah she knows a lot more than what's going on. Has she just completely blanked this out or she just trying to cover up something that might've went wrong? It's possible.

SB - Yeah.

GA - Hell no my wife and I had that, this scenario walking around our pool. We have an above ground pool at our house. It might have been the second or third day that our daughter was gone after all this stuff started getting, getting out about our daughter. My wife and I just walked down by our pool and she said, George, remember the day that I called you at work. And I asking you why you left the gate open, why you left the ladder on the pool? I said, number one is, I don't leave the gate open. 'Cause we have two Yorkies we let out.

SB - Uh-huh (Affirmative)

GA - Whenever someone's home. And I said, the ladder that's instantaneous we been taking it off since our.. granddaughter has been swimming with us.

SB - Right.

GA - And we're always very... we take that off.

SB - (Inaudible)...

GA - and we set it to the side. There's no way that my granddaughter can put it back up to get in the pool. 'Cause the pool's almost five feet tall. It's five feet off the ground at least. Four and a half... forty-eight inches I'm sorry.

SB - Uh-huh. (Affirmative)

GA - So, um, my wife says, well George what if this happened? What if for some reason Caylee came back. 'Cause Caylee loved to swim and she'd be tapping me on the forehead at 7 o'clock in the morning, JoJo swim, JoJo swim. And.. we thought about that scenario. Did for some reason she get out, 'cause she can open up the sliding glass door. She can open up the other door I mean she can just take off and go. Did she climb up, did she fall in when my daughter might've been.. had her back to her outside or inside? I don't know. That's the scenario that we ... we even passed it onto um ...

SB - The detectives

..... beginning here they go onto discuss other scenarios and then on
line 17, page 81 (pdf 18) GA brings back the topic of the pool and says,

GA - Okay. To expand upon this scenario we just talked about, about the pool.

SB - Uh-huh (Affirmative)

GA - That's something my wife and I talked about, brought to detectives.

SB - Okay.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0730/20224404.pdf Pt. 1

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0730/20224422.pdf Pt. 2

i.b.nora
03-21-2010, 10:00 PM
Cindy was in an interview with Greta Van Susteren that aired on August 7, 2008 where she talked about the ladder and the pool.
I have not been able to find the interview, maybe someone else can. But, my own personal notes about it say:

"Cindy later reports in an interview with Greta Van Susteren on August 7th that the ladder to the pool, which she had removed from the pool on Sunday, was up against the pool again on this day (Monday June 16) when she got home. Cindy assigns no importance "not at all" to the ladder being in the pool."

If someone can find it, it would be interesting to review it, since it was directly from Cindy.

Woe.be.gone
03-22-2010, 12:50 AM
In response to the part I bolded:

George said in his state deposition that he told Cindy that about the gas can burglary the morning of June 24. He said he and Cindy talked about the can cans being taken again that day when they met up at the bank to cash a stimulous check.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/080509%20George%20Anthony%20Depo%20Pgs%20151%20-%20200.pdf
Page 40

GA doesn't say that in his interview with the FBI agent, Scott Bolin.
I typed out what he said during his interview with the FBI.
Although it makes sense to me that GA would mention to CA that he called LE about the missing cans when they met at the bank.
There is no doubt the gas cans were reported missing on June 24.
IMO the ladder/gate open day occurred several days prior to the 24th based on the testimony of Debbie at Gentiva as well as what CA has said although there are small conflicting details from what I've read/found so far.

Skully
03-22-2010, 08:25 AM
Cindy was in an interview with Greta Van Susteren that aired on August 7, 2008 where she talked about the ladder and the pool.
I have not been able to find the interview, maybe someone else can. But, my own personal notes about it say:

"Cindy later reports in an interview with Greta Van Susteren on August 7th that the ladder to the pool, which she had removed from the pool on Sunday, was up against the pool again on this day (Monday June 16) when she got home. Cindy assigns no importance "not at all" to the ladder being in the pool."

If someone can find it, it would be interesting to review it, since it was directly from Cindy.

That is the interview I remember too. I knew it was GVS. They walk around back and I remember CA talking about the storage box, for pool supplies, toys. They made a point of saying it was never pushed up against the pool so Caylee couldn't climb up on it to get into the pool. I don't see a 2yr old climbing a ladder on her own. Just saying. They showed the shed too, and where it was in reference to the house and pool. I can't find that interview.

Skully
03-22-2010, 08:26 AM
GA doesn't say that in his interview with the FBI agent, Scott Bolin.
I typed out what he said during his interview with the FBI.
Although it makes sense to me that GA would mention to CA that he called LE about the missing cans when they met at the bank.
There is no doubt the gas cans were reported missing on June 24.
IMO the ladder/gate open day occurred several days prior to the 24th based on the testimony of Debbie at Gentiva as well as what CA has said although there are small conflicting details from what I've read/found so far.

Would the police report be on line somewhere? Maybe GA mentions the pool and ladder in the report. That would get us a date....

LiveLaughLuv
03-22-2010, 09:24 AM
VAN SUSTEREN: Are these the sheds were there was some report something was stolen from the sheds or broken into?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, and we actually need to replace a lot of stuff out here. But yes, this is one of the sheds that we would normally keep locked and normally keep the shovels in, which we do keep the shovels in. This is his toolshed. The lawn mower, you know, weed-whacker, that type of thing, shovels, axes, hoes, anything you do gardening work is locked up in here, like that. I mean, it's a normal shed.

VAN SUSTEREN: Was something reported stolen from this, though?

CINDY ANTHONY: Yes, gas cans.

VAN SUSTEREN: When was that report made that gas cans were stolen?

CINDY ANTHONY: You'd have to ask George.

VAN SUSTEREN: Was that, though, before Caylee was -- had been reported missing or after, that the gas cans...

CINDY ANTHONY: That was before.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Absolutely.

VAN SUSTEREN: And gas cans were -- how many gas cans?

GEORGE ANTHONY: Two, the 2-and-a-half-gallon and one about a gallon- and-a-quarter, something like that.

VAN SUSTEREN: Now, you made the report on June 24, though. That's when you noticed it. Do you remember when you last were in there, so you have some sort of window of when that could have happened?

GEORGE ANTHONY: It could have been Sunday. I believe I was in there Sunday. I don't believe I was in there the day before that, like, on the 23rd. I'm almost positive it's a Sunday.

VAN SUSTEREN: So the Sunday the 23rd, you might have been in there?

CINDY ANTHONY: Well, Sunday would have been the 22nd.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So as best you can tell, it happened between the 22nd and the 24th. someone broke in there.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

That's when I saw my daughter. I was getting ready to go to work, and the garage door goes open and my daughter comes in. This is about 2:25, 2:30 in the afternoon on the 24th. As she comes in the house, and I said, Hey, how're you doing? And she says, Fine, Dad. I says, Well, what's going on? And she says, Oh, I'm just stopping home for about 10 minutes, get some clothes. I go to go back to work. Where's Caylee? She's with Zanny. And I said, OK, when are you guys coming home? She says, Oh, we'll be back home maybe late tonight or the next day.

I said, OK. Have you been talking to Mom? Oh, yes, I talk to Mom every day. I said, I know, but did you talk to Mom today? She sort of hesitated for a moment and she says, Yes. And she says, Oh, by the way, it's a shame what happened in the shed. And I said...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,398490,00.html


The source said some investigators believe a flurry of phone calls from Casey to her parents on June 16 could be an indication that whatever happened to Caylee happened that day. On that day, Casey and Caylee were last seen together by Caylee's grandfather George at the Anthony family home where they lived.

Caylee Marie Anthony loved the water and some investigators are considering whether that has something to do with her disappearance.

The theory is based on the following facts.

Fact #1: Casey Anthony's phone records show a flurry of unanswered phone calls to her parents on June 16.

Some believe that could be because that's when something happened to Caylee. A possibility being considered is Caylee could've gotten into the backyard pool on her own and was discovered too late.

Fact #2: Eyewitness News was told the Anthony family was careful to keep a ladder near the pool safe from Caylee, but that around the time of her disappearance the ladder was up.

"Boy, how she can just figure things out. We, of course, as every family would, we've had to childproof everything and she's smart enough to take it off," Lee Anthony said.

Fact #3: A neighbor says, right around the time Caylee disappeared, Casey had backed the car up to the garage, which the neighbor said was unusual, and borrowed a shovel for about an hour.

Fact #4: The car was later found abandoned at the Amscot at Goldenrod and Colonial and was towed. When Casey's parents found out and got it back weeks later, Caylee's disappearance began to unravel. Caylee's grandmother called 911 and made a frantic plea for help.

"There's something's wrong! I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car!" Cindy Anthony said in the call.

Fact #5: Investigators said they found evidence in the car that indicated Cindy Anthony's statement was true and the FBI is testing it to verify that.

"The first 24, 48 hours I had the 'what if, what if, what if.' I also went over all of it with the sheriff's department. Sgt. Allen can tell you that I sat down with him and talked about different things. He made me feel a lot better when they examined the pool, around the pool area, because, to me, that would be the riskiest place that something could have happened," Cindy Anthony said Friday afternoon in response to the theory.

This is not the only theory investigators are considering, it's only one of them. They're still hoping to find Caylee alive.
http://www.wftv.com/news/17136493/detail.html




VAN SUSTEREN: All right. Now, the business about the -- there's a pool in the back yard, and there's something about the ladder connected to the pool. And in fact, if you can just stand over on -- I've actually got a picture, so you can explain the significance of new information on the ladder and the pool in the back yard. What is the story on this ladder?

FUHRMAN: Well, it's interesting. You know, the grandparents are telling me that on the 16th, when Casey and Caylee are leaving that morning at 12:50 -- the previous night, Cynthia, the grandmother, and Casey swam in the pool. After they were done, they take me ladder, which snaps off, and then they take the ladder away from the pool so Caylee can't climb up it by herself.

Now, nobody swam in the pool after that night on Sunday. Nobody swam there on Monday. And then Tuesday morning, they noticed that the ladder was back up on the pool, hooked up, and the gate on the side of the house was open. So it's interesting information considering the activity that preceded -- you know, preceded that on the day before.

VAN SUSTEREN: And as well, the significance worthy of investigation is that it happens within the important part of the timeline, at least what we believe to be important now, between the 16th of June, which is the Monday, and the 18th of June, Wednesday, that you outlined.

FUHRMAN: Absolutely. And I think there's something to be noted here, that these calls were unanswered. And you know, this flurry, the way it was described, the flurry is one call after another, separated by a minute, minute-and-a-half, going to the same person, a different place, a home, a business, a cell phone, and just constant. And it keeps up, and there's no answers. And then, all of a sudden, the activity stops, and there's a gap. And the same kind of activity on the 18th, when Casey Anthony actually borrows a shovel from the next-door neighbor.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,399183,00.html


Seems to me, this family from the start were having trouble with the dates. GA states he knows for sure last time he was in that shed was June 22..by the 24th, he saw the shed broken into.

I don't know that Caylee would have been strong enough to move the ladder to the pool. They haven't mentioned when they saw the ladder by the pool after knowing CA took it away, was it snapped back on or did it just stand up next to the pool, Inmate Anthony might have been preoccupied on the phone, texting or sexting...and Caylee feel in??? Would she not hear the splashing or Caylee cry out??? IDK if the pool even plays a part in Caylee's death. I truly believe after that huge altercation which turned physical, June 15th, evening, Imate Anthony took all her rage out for her mother on precious Caylee..

JWG
03-22-2010, 09:43 AM
The 23rd is the day that Casey actually took the gas cans. The 24th is the day George noticed and called the police (and later that day Casey returned the f***ing cans).

The only day that fits Debbie's recollection that Pool Ladder Day was shortly before the day that George called the police about the gas cans--and also fits George's recollection that he learned of the pool ladder incident during a phone call with Cindy shortly after she got home and while he was at work at Security Forces--is June 23.

6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm. George's recollection was that he had learned of the pool ladder situation when HE called Cindy, but perhaps this is not such a big discrepancy.

I had assumed that Cindy was not at the house at 5:23 pm when she called George, because she called the house phone at 5:21 pm (then Casey's cell phone at 5:22 pm) before calling George. But I suppose she could have hit the wrong speed dial for Casey and accidentally called the house. It really doesn't make much sense for her to have been calling the house phone otherwise, as she would have thought no one was home.

After the 2 calls to George, Cindy again called Casey. After trading calls a couple of times, she eventually spoke to Casey for 11 minutes at 5:35 pm.

At 5:50 pm, Cindy called her mother (Shirley P) from the house phone for 4 minutes, so she was definitely at the house by then.

I'm starting to think the 23rd was Pool Ladder Day, which would mean that Casey left the pool ladder up and the gate open on the same day that she and Tony broke open the shed to get the gas cans. But Tony said nothing about Casey using the pool for anything that day.... :waitasec:

I'm beginning to think the pool ladder story is a red-herring. :trout: Not that GA and CA made it up or anything, but that it does not tell us anything about how Caylee died, because it is not connected. By the 23rd, Caylee had been dead for a week and in the woods three days.

It is possible, I suppose, that KC put the ladder there as a ruse or possible basis for a story.

Skully
03-22-2010, 10:11 AM
I'm beginning to think the pool ladder story is a red-herring. :trout: Not that GA and CA made it up or anything, but that it does not tell us anything about how Caylee died, because it is not connected. By the 23rd, Caylee had been dead for a week and in the woods three days.

It is possible, I suppose, that KC put the ladder there as a ruse or possible basis for a story.

Didn't the cadaver dogs hit in the back yard? And why does she need a shovel on the 19th? Caylee would have been dead for at least 3-4 days, correct? What was she digging up or burying in the back yard? The flurry of calls tells us something happened that caused her to need to contact CA. That's why I thought of an accident, or she forgot her in a hot car and then wasn't thinking and emerged her in the pool, thinking it would help, when it didn't she tried to call CA. Or it is another ruse as someone said. I don't know why she would kill Caylee, and then call her mother, doesn't make sense. But KC doesn't make sense either.

notthatsmart
03-22-2010, 10:18 AM
I think it is possible that Ca and Kc left the pool ladder and box up Sunday night of june 15th after swimming. Leaving the dirty work for Ga.

I think it is possible that Kc left the gate open the day she borrowed the shovel from Bb.

Just a thought.

TallyHo
03-22-2010, 10:30 AM
I'm beginning to think the pool ladder story is a red-herring. :trout: Not that GA and CA made it up or anything, but that it does not tell us anything about how Caylee died, because it is not connected. By the 23rd, Caylee had been dead for a week and in the woods three days.

It is possible, I suppose, that KC put the ladder there as a ruse or possible basis for a story.

I am leaning this direction too. For Caylee to have drowned in the pool, the ladder would have had to be on the pool on the 16th, and I really believe George or Cindy would have had to notice it that same day, because of the dogs. Cindy ties the gate being open to the pool ladder incident - I suspect that she would have noticed it or the dogs would have gotten out on the 16th if that had been the case. We have a beagle, and I promise you that she would make a beeline for an open gate. Their backyard was not that big, and I don't think it would have taken those dogs long to find that gate. If Casey opened the gate and put the ladder on the pool the same day she got the gas cans, she might have been trying to make it look like someone had randomly come into their yard, gotten into the pool (yes - that does happen) and broken into the shed, thus taking the suspicion off of her.

marspiter
03-22-2010, 10:31 AM
For me there is one thing that in my mind completely negates the pool theory. That's the duct tape. It has been my experience (as a true southerner we use duct tape on everything) duct tape does not stay or do well on a surface that is already wet. Now if you put it on a dry surface it will waterproof and last through very inclimate weather or submerged. However I've never seen duct tape stick all that well to a wet surface. That and wouldn't there be chemical data associated with the duct tape evidence? Data that showed pool chemical residue associated with the tape?

Personally myself I agree that this pool theory is a red herring.

LiveLaughLuv
03-22-2010, 10:42 AM
For me there is one thing that in my mind completely negates the pool theory. That's the duct tape. It has been my experience (as a true southerner we use duct tape on everything) duct tape does not stay or do well on a surface that is already wet. Now if you put it on a dry surface it will waterproof and last through very inclimate weather or submerged. However I've never seen duct tape stick all that well to a wet surface. That and wouldn't there be chemical data associated with the duct tape evidence? Data that showed pool chemical residue associated with the tape?

Personally myself I agree that this pool theory is a red herring.


The duct tape was applied after Caylee was deceased, if you go with the pool theory (actually with any theory). Inmate Anthony stated, she is fearful of CA. CA told her if anything happened to Caylee, I'd never forgive you! So, if Caylee died by an accident, by Inmate Anthony's neglect, she would have panicked due to being fearful of CA but not of the police??? This inmate is so delusional...it is possible since there was some evidence of pool chemicals but is that the truth??? Or did she try to use this but then came up with a better idea, the imaginanny??? This way there is no way Inmate Anthony could have been tied in to Caylee's alleged abduction or death!

I also feel, could be the dogs hit on Caylee's playhouse and by the pool for GA drove home with the pontiac, windows rolled down but the smell intense enough to still be with the car, was on him and his clothing. Didn't they go around the backyard for some evidence after GA drove home with the vehicle?

I only hope to hear the truth but I'm not looking for the truth from anyone from the Anthony family, it's the SA's that offer the truth...

marspiter
03-22-2010, 11:32 AM
The duct tape was applied after Caylee was deceased, if you go with the pool theory (actually with any theory). Inmate Anthony stated, she is fearful of CA. CA told her if anything happened to Caylee, I'd never forgive you! So, if Caylee died by an accident, by Inmate Anthony's neglect, she would have panicked due to being fearful of CA but not of the police??? This inmate is so delusional...it is possible since there was some evidence of pool chemicals but is that the truth??? Or did she try to use this but then came up with a better idea, the imaginanny??? This way there is no way Inmate Anthony could have been tied in to Caylee's alleged abduction or death!

I also feel, could be the dogs hit on Caylee's playhouse and by the pool for GA drove home with the pontiac, windows rolled down but the smell intense enough to still be with the car, was on him and his clothing. Didn't they go around the backyard for some evidence after GA drove home with the vehicle?

I only hope to hear the truth but I'm not looking for the truth from anyone from the Anthony family, it's the SA's that offer the truth...
(bolded by me)

I don't think that has ever been established one way or the other actually. The reports from Dr. G says it was placed before decomposition (decomp starts rather rapidly after death but Dr. G once again was vague and didn't state a level of decomp either). I don't think there has been any reports one way or the other as for the tape being placed before or after Caylee was deceased. Although looking at Dr. G's vague report it would be easy to assume it was placed before death. It also sounded that in the hearing where Mr. Ashton explained Caylee's death that the SA's office believes the tape was placed before she was deceased. I'm personally in the ballpark of the tape being placed on a live/drugged Caylee much the way the SA described.

I do not believe this was an accident or Casey would have said so the moment she was arrested imho. That or the defense would have enacted Casey's speedy trial rights and pushed the accident theory and this trial would more then likely be done and over with by now. There is a reason that didn't happen. To me there are just to many factors working against any kind of accident theory.

iluvmua
03-22-2010, 11:39 AM
nope, Caylee's death was NO accident. Casey Anthony alone plotted to kill Caylee.

If it was an accident then why all the computer searches about household weapons, how to make cholorform, 100 episode of "One Tree Hill" about nanny who kidnaps child, shovel, neck breaking etc.

because this CLEARLY was no accident.

Even if she did accidently kill Caylee, I highly doubt she would admit it.

Pool theory flew out the window a long time ago.

Woe.be.gone
03-22-2010, 02:27 PM
Would the police report be on line somewhere? Maybe GA mentions the pool and ladder in the report. That would get us a date....

I linked the gas can report above in post #40.
There is no mention of the pool/ladder/gate incident or of a missing Caylee (considering it had been a week since JoJo had seen her).

Woe.be.gone
03-22-2010, 02:32 PM
The 23rd is the day that Casey actually took the gas cans. The 24th is the day George noticed and called the police (and later that day Casey returned the f***ing cans).

The only day that fits Debbie's recollection that Pool Ladder Day was shortly before the day that George called the police about the gas cans--and also fits George's recollection that he learned of the pool ladder incident during a phone call with Cindy shortly after she got home and while he was at work at Security Forces--is June 23.

6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm. George's recollection was that he had learned of the pool ladder situation when HE called Cindy, but perhaps this is not such a big discrepancy.

I had assumed that Cindy was not at the house at 5:23 pm when she called George, because she called the house phone at 5:21 pm (then Casey's cell phone at 5:22 pm) before calling George. But I suppose she could have hit the wrong speed dial for Casey and accidentally called the house. It really doesn't make much sense for her to have been calling the house phone otherwise, as she would have thought no one was home.

After the 2 calls to George, Cindy again called Casey. After trading calls a couple of times, she eventually spoke to Casey for 11 minutes at 5:35 pm.

At 5:50 pm, Cindy called her mother (Shirley P) from the house phone for 4 minutes, so she was definitely at the house by then.

I'm starting to think the 23rd was Pool Ladder Day, which would mean that Casey left the pool ladder up and the gate open on the same day that she and Tony broke open the shed to get the gas cans. But Tony said nothing about Casey using the pool for anything that day.... :waitasec:

If ladder day was June 23rd then GA did not mention it to LE. Also read Debbie's interview again - Yuri manages to lead her to the conclusion that the story told to her by CA about the ladder came first and that "A COUPLE OF DAYS LATER' she heard the story about the gas cans. Yuri uses the date June 23 as gas can day (he may have been thinking about the day they were taken versus when GA reported them gone).

Keep in mind, I personally don't care what the answer turns out to be - no agenda - just want to know the truth based on the evidence.

Woe.be.gone
03-22-2010, 02:51 PM
Cindy was in an interview with Greta Van Susteren that aired on August 7, 2008 where she talked about the ladder and the pool.
I have not been able to find the interview, maybe someone else can. But, my own personal notes about it say:

"Cindy later reports in an interview with Greta Van Susteren on August 7th that the ladder to the pool, which she had removed from the pool on Sunday, was up against the pool again on this day (Monday June 16) when she got home. Cindy assigns no importance "not at all" to the ladder being in the pool."

If someone can find it, it would be interesting to review it, since it was directly from Cindy.

I looked on the Fox website last night and these interviews are "temporarily unavailable". There are many interviews in print but I couldn't find any referencing the ladder. Also very few videos are accessible. I would like to see that interview again also.

Also the telephone call info that CA made to LE if irrc (she called to report her recollection of the ladder/gate day).

Woe.be.gone
03-22-2010, 03:21 PM
The 23rd is the day that Casey actually took the gas cans. The 24th is the day George noticed and called the police (and later that day Casey returned the f***ing cans).

The only day that fits Debbie's recollection that Pool Ladder Day was shortly before the day that George called the police about the gas cans--and also fits George's recollection that he learned of the pool ladder incident during a phone call with Cindy shortly after she got home and while he was at work at Security Forces--is June 23.

6/23 George got 2 calls on his cell FROM Cindy at 5:23 pm and 5:24 pm. George's recollection was that he had learned of the pool ladder situation when HE called Cindy, but perhaps this is not such a big discrepancy.

I had assumed that Cindy was not at the house at 5:23 pm when she called George, because she called the house phone at 5:21 pm (then Casey's cell phone at 5:22 pm) before calling George. But I suppose she could have hit the wrong speed dial for Casey and accidentally called the house. It really doesn't make much sense for her to have been calling the house phone otherwise, as she would have thought no one was home.

After the 2 calls to George, Cindy again called Casey. After trading calls a couple of times, she eventually spoke to Casey for 11 minutes at 5:35 pm.

At 5:50 pm, Cindy called her mother (Shirley P) from the house phone for 4 minutes, so she was definitely at the house by then.

I'm starting to think the 23rd was Pool Ladder Day, which would mean that Casey left the pool ladder up and the gate open on the same day that she and Tony broke open the shed to get the gas cans. But Tony said nothing about Casey using the pool for anything that day.... :waitasec:

My guess is that CA discovered that the shed had been broken into when she got home from work on the 23rd and immediately called GA. GA, after stewing about it overnight, decided to call LE the next morning. In the meantime, CA tried to reach KC as CA knew it was KC who took the gas AGAIN.

justsaying
03-22-2010, 03:42 PM
I don't know, but I am not convinced that the pool ladder incident and gate open incident ever really happened. I kind of think that Cindy was throwing out every idea she could brainstorm so as to lessen Casey's direct involvement in whatever happened to Caylee. Remember at the very beginning when she asked Casey, "what have you done?" (from interview with Lee)? Then she helps her daughter by furnishing a possible answer to her own question, with "who took her". I think Cindy has a long history of furnishing Casey with answers to her questions which she wants to hear. And Casey just parrots the answers which are acceptable to mama even if they aren't true. I think Cindy taught Casey to lie to her from early on in her life. So, unless they have dated pictures of the ladder off the pool and then back on, I am inclined to think that this is another figment of Cindy's imagination running amuck.

LambChop
03-22-2010, 04:01 PM
Maybe we are missing the obvious here. If KC was seen back at the house by the neighbor she borrowed the shovel from it is possible after getting rid of bag she was dirty from the swamp and rather than go into the house and shower which might alert her mother that she was there KC went into the pool. Anything she had on her body, dirt, decomp would be destroyed by the chlorine in the pool and just maybe she forgot to put the ladder away after she was through.

Clearly someone tried to dig a hole in the yard next to the foundation and stopped. Too much work. Maybe dragged the chest over by the pool to get it out of the way. Decides to take the bag back to the car and dump the bag down the street (because it's daytime and not much time), comes back all sweaty, dirty, jumps into the pool gets out and changes her clothes and returns the shovel but does not have time to go back into the backyard thereby forgetting she left the ladder in the pool and did not lock the gate. Sounds like something your kids do when you have told them not to go into the pool and have friends over while you are not home. They always leave little clues, now don't they? JMO

domini201
03-22-2010, 04:07 PM
The only reason I think this was not an accidental death is because of the searches on the internet by KC. I do possibly think that she tried to stage an accidental drowning but changed her mind. Maybe she thought that the she could explain away the chloroform away with chemicals in the pool.

KenoshaKid
03-22-2010, 04:52 PM
Didn't the cadaver dogs hit in the back yard? And why does she need a shovel on the 19th? Caylee would have been dead for at least 3-4 days, correct? What was she digging up or burying in the back yard? The flurry of calls tells us something happened that caused her to need to contact CA. That's why I thought of an accident, or she forgot her in a hot car and then wasn't thinking and emerged her in the pool, thinking it would help, when it didn't she tried to call CA. Or it is another ruse as someone said. I don't know why she would kill Caylee, and then call her mother, doesn't make sense. But KC doesn't make sense either.

My bold.
We discussed this a while back and I think it was JWG who pointed out that the "flurry of calls" was not isolated to this day; it was something that KC did on more than one occasion. The general consensus was the flurry was KC looking for a baby sitter for that evening. And, we know she didn't find one. :(

LandAuxvasse
03-22-2010, 06:26 PM
I do believe the ladder was a ruse by Casey to stage an accident. Could it be that Casey was setting the stage of an accident to tell her parents, but when she went to retrieve Caylee's body, it was too decomposed to allow it?

iamkimba
03-22-2010, 09:51 PM
Unless- and I really can't figure this out folks, I am so confused based on actions and reactions as to who knew what, when, why and how..
unless there was some fabrication on George's part when he helpfully told LE about the ladder, that he was somehow setting up an accident scenario, after telling LE that he recognized the smell, the whole "please don't let this be my Caylee"-
so
bear with me please:
the ladder/pool incident never happened-
he knew already that Caylee was gone, he was semi truthfully telling LE this- and also setting up the accident scenario to help cover up for Casey. IIRC-As he said he didn't want to lose 2. ( Caylee/Casey)
and as we have seen from KC- there is a nugget of truth in every lie she's told.

I see that we are on the same page, LandAuxVasse!

Woe.be.gone
03-23-2010, 12:14 AM
GA gave the following account of his recollection of the ladder four days after he talked to the FBI.

He spoke to Detectives Hussey and Edwards.

Preceeding where I begin here, he recounts a version of the gas gan incident in case anybody is interested. The questioning then continues as follows -

Q - ... Um, 16th and 7th, or 15th, 16th I think we have that pretty well (inaudible). We needed this week of the gas cans. Um someone mentioned a ladder incident in the backyard with the pool. is there something uh, some...?

A - Right after we called in about our granddaughter being missing, it might have been the 2nd or 3rd day, my wife and I were walking around the house thinking, every little thing that might could have happened. That's ....

Q - That's the 15th.

A - Right as gruesome as it could have been we're thinking, you hate to think about your own child

(Dectective Hussey)

Q - Of course.

A - And she said, "You know George I hope she didn't, something happened, she didn't panic, Caylee could a got outside real quick." And we are very religious, not in the, in the form I wanna say at the moment but we're very, very detailed on the ladder, we have an above ground pool. Whenever we're done with that pool, we don't get in there every single day but we take the ladder off. I set it to the side and we just make sure that that's always taken care of. My gate is always locked. Though I have the one entrance we have in and out of our gate. I'm, I'm, I'm good about that. But one specific day and I can't remember which day it was, my wife called and was *****ing me out, "George did you leave the gate open inside", "No". "Well did you go swimming today". "No". "Well the ladder's on, the gates open". I'm like, "Well I didn't do it". I don't know exact date it was.

(Detective Edwards)

Q - Right.

A - All I know I was working, it could have been 6, 7:00 at night, I wish I could be specific. I ....

Q - So when you guys discussed that on the 15th it was just a recollection of some time in the past?

A - Right.

Q - Any time in that, months prior?

A - Yeah it, it could have been any time within that and that's the reason we passed it on to uh, Detective Yurich and uh, Melich, you know to let him know that we just had a bad feeling. Maybe something happened, we don't know. You hate to think that but it was just, because when you don't talk to one little special person in your life, when you don't hear her little voice for weeks and upon a time, 2 or 3 weeks upon a time you just, you start thinking different things. As crazy as that might sound.

END OF POOL SUBJECT WITHIN TRANSCRIPT (also grammer, commas, etc. is the way it is in the transcript).


No concrete answers here about ladder/gate dates but George sure lets on that everything wasn't worry free surrounding the issue of Caylee being gone from the house (as CA and GA would like everyone to believe now.)

The impression I get from GA regarding the ladder is that CA claims to have found it up and the gate open and in an accusatory fashion digs into GA about it. What would be the big deal if Caylee was not living there if this really happened? If it wasn't on June 15 or16, what's the problem since Caylee was already gone with KC after that time.

Anyway this interview doesn't pinpoint a date either before or after the gas can date. What it does say is that GA claims to have been worried and has selective amnesia to an extent regarding timeline issues. Also, unless I've missed it, GA never claims to have witnessed the ladder up or the gate open - these observations were made by CA and inturn she accuses GA according to him.

I recall that CA writes about not being able to believe George - she says he claims he was at work - I think she writes this to KC on MS as she is pondering where her Caylee is. Maybe CA is referring to the gate/pool incident when she wrote these thoughts.

Confusion about the dates may be because GA mentions that CA and him discussed the possibility of a pool accident after KC had already been arrested which of course was after gas can day. I haven't seen where he ever says that the ladder was found up after the date the gas cans had been taken.

The above interview can be found on the Official Docs. Thread, Post 63.
GA August 4, 2008. Pages 28-9.

BondJamesBond
03-23-2010, 05:13 AM
Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

LiveLaughLuv
03-23-2010, 07:42 AM
I don't think that has ever been established one way or the other actually. The reports from Dr. G says it was placed before decomposition (decomp starts rather rapidly after death but Dr. G once again was vague and didn't state a level of decomp either). I don't think there has been any reports one way or the other as for the tape being placed before or after Caylee was deceased. Although looking at Dr. G's vague report it would be easy to assume it was placed before death. It also sounded that in the hearing where Mr. Ashton explained Caylee's death that the SA's office believes the tape was placed before she was deceased. I'm personally in the ballpark of the tape being placed on a live/drugged Caylee much the way the SA described.

I do not believe this was an accident or Casey would have said so the moment she was arrested imho. That or the defense would have enacted Casey's speedy trial rights and pushed the accident theory and this trial would more then likely be done and over with by now. There is a reason that didn't happen. To me there are just to many factors working against any kind of accident theory.

Yes, Marspiter, it hasn't been established about the duct tape was applied before Caylee died or after, I need to believe, Inmate Anthony wasn't that cold hearted and suffocated Caylee by way of that duct tape. It takes so long to die via suffocation and I don't want to believe Caylee suffered from 4-7 minutes...so, what I'm hoping is she placed the duct tape over Caylee for affect, KWIM??

I don't believe it was an accident, either. I truly believe hatred, rage, freedom are the top reasons why Inmate Anthony thought her life would be better without Caylee in tow.

Justice for Caylee

TallyHo
03-23-2010, 08:01 AM
Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

Sorry - no pictures of an inside gate yet, but I took a look again at the D. Bennet interview and she is specific that it was a side gate and that Cindy was specifically worried about losing the dogs (presumably to the road, etc). Could George have modified that story slightly to give an accident plausibility? (I still say it is noteworthy also that if they were mulling accident theories around, they did not believe the Zanny the Nanny story, but that is not relevant to the pool discussion...) ;)

Woe.be.gone
03-23-2010, 06:02 PM
Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

:waitasec: I've always assumed the A's were referring to the gate leading out from their backyard, past the garage door, along side their house. That would be the conditions needed to set up a circumstance (to set the stage) that someone had entered the yard (how would they unlock the gate though?), set the ladder by the pool and then exit the yard leaving the ladder there and the gate open when they left. Why would they do this? Teenagers jump fences. Maybe CA did find the yard this way when she came home from work (the 16th?). But on that day she did not think it had anything to do with Casey or Caylee. CA probably just thought is was GA being irresponsible and was annoyed because of the dogs. GA says she called him at work at 6-7PM but he can't recall the date. GA did go to work on the 16th.

George is adamant that HE ALWAYS LOCKED THIS GATE even though it's the single entrance in and out of the yard (although one could walk through the back of the house as Bond points out). I'm thinking the inside/outside comment was GA getting confused regarding what side of the gate the lock is on. What side would it be on? Would one have it on the inside or outside of the gate or both? I picture a lock on the inside - no? Wouldn't one lock themselves in, not out?

I never thought they were referring to a child's gate. IMO, at Caylee's age, she could break the code on that type of gate with no problem. Anyhow, GA would not be able to 'lock' this type of gate. Unless it's one of those accordian type stainless steel thingy's that is bolted on one side and actually locks on the other side like a patio door does. GA has talked about how Caylee knew how to open the sliding door which is why they said they moved the big resin trunk like storage box away from the poolside.

Now I'm more confused than ever which I didn't think was possible - ha!

Woe.be.gone
03-23-2010, 06:17 PM
Sorry - no pictures of an inside gate yet, but I took a look again at the D. Bennet interview and she is specific that it was a side gate and that Cindy was specifically worried about losing the dogs (presumably to the road, etc). Could George have modified that story slightly to give an accident plausibility? (I still say it is noteworthy also that if they were mulling accident theories around, they did not believe the Zanny the Nanny story, but that is not relevant to the pool discussion...) ;)

Imagine this though, if KC left the yard in that condition on the 16th, the A's didn't know anything yet - that Caylee would be gone forever. Then, as time went on and KC kept keeping Caylee from them, they began to think differently about the day they found the gate open/pool ladder up. By July 15th, the condition of the backyard took on new meaning.

My wish for Caylee, since I know she is deceased, is that her death was an accidental drowning. I know most people hate KC and want to see her fry, but for Caylee's sake, I would prefer she died without having to look into the eyes of an evil mother, etc. The crime then becomes what did KC and family do afterward to cause the tragedy to become such a fiasco.

thelmadawg
03-23-2010, 06:36 PM
Seems to me, this family from the start were having trouble with the dates. GA states he knows for sure last time he was in that shed was June 22..by the 24th, he saw the shed broken into.

I don't know that Caylee would have been strong enough to move the ladder to the pool. They haven't mentioned when they saw the ladder by the pool after knowing CA took it away, was it snapped back on or did it just stand up next to the pool, Inmate Anthony might have been preoccupied on the phone, texting or sexting...and Caylee feel in??? Would she not hear the splashing or Caylee cry out??? IDK if the pool even plays a part in Caylee's death. I truly believe after that huge altercation which turned physical, June 15th, evening, Imate Anthony took all her rage out for her mother on precious Caylee..

KC's statement to LA: "Guess I'm just a spiteful bi*ch," says it all to me. I've always felt if there were a drowning, it was no accident, and the initial flurry of calls were to create a coverup accident scenario. When CA and GA couldn't be reached, the plan failed and with no plan she just did what was expedient --Caylee to the trunk and off she went . . .

IMHO, as always.

Pensfan
03-24-2010, 09:37 PM
I used to wonder if Caylee did accidently drown and if the duct tape wasn't KC's attempt to cover her a** and try to make the death appear to be someone else's fault (like an evil kidnapper). KC's comment of "I guess I'm just a spiteful b***h" was a variant of a Freudian slip. This statement convinced me that Caylee didn't die as an accident, but rather KC killed her to punish her mother, CA.

Harmony2
03-25-2010, 02:32 PM
My bold.
We discussed this a while back and I think it was JWG who pointed out that the "flurry of calls" was not isolated to this day; it was something that KC did on more than one occasion. The general consensus was the flurry was KC looking for a baby sitter for that evening. And, we know she didn't find one. :(


Part of the time the flurry of calls occurs Casey is traveling on the road. She also talks to Tony and Jesse during this time. This negates the theory that these calls were because of an emergency in my mind. The summary, for the flurry of calls in this article, coincides with our ping map.

But at 4:11 p.m., Anthony began trying to reach her mother, Cindy Anthony, making four attempts in two minutes, according to records. Anthony then traveled north from her parents' home and called Lazzaro for one minute at 4:19 p.m., Pipitone reported. Two minutes later, she talked to Grund for a minute, and tried to call her mother again at 4:25 p.m., Pipitone said.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/17931576/detail.html

skygirl
03-29-2010, 09:40 AM
I am certain we have been over this and I prolly just need a refresher, but why is it impossible that this stain and the chloroform were a result of pool chemicals? I know that the Anthony's pool cleaner did not contain chlorine, that much I remember-But how does the chemical that they did use breakdown? How would it appear under "black light"?
The ladder stories, the extreme matting of the hair, the cadaver dog hits by the pool...there are a couple of other things that could still point back to the pool, though tying in the placement of three pieces of duct tape over the breathing orafices shortly before or after drowning Caylee is a little tricky.

Also, TMc's hearsay statement regarding what KC told her about the whole: using-the-shovel-to-retreive-pool-ladder-out-of-the-pool-story, too? Hmmmm :waitasec:

little ot but goes with stain therory too. Imo

ETA: This would fall under your "ladder stories"

Woe.be.gone
03-29-2010, 07:02 PM
Thanks, Woe.

Reading that again...perhaps I jumped too quickly to the conclusion that George/Cindy were referring to the fence gate around the corner of the pool side of the house that exits by the garage. I responded to another post on this thread about the gate explaining that like I knew what I was talkin' about :bang:

The account of the gate Woe provided above describes the it as, "inside", and causes me to think that perhaps they were referring to a child-restraining gate vs. The gate in the yard. :waitasec:

In that context, and IIRC, there was a comment that Caylee was capable of opening the sliding glass door. Futher, IIRC, there is a door that exits the back porch out into the back yard.

Do any pictures (e.g. Caylee making sign on her forehead, backyard playing video, etc.) exist where we might get a glimpse of a child-restraint "gate" on that porch door or around the corner of the porch outside by the pool?? :waitasec:

After reviewing the A's Home and Floor Plan thread, I noticed that the sliding doors on the back of the house lead to the Sunroom and that the Sunroom has two separate single doors (an outside type screen/storm door) that one would use to access the backyard (one of the doors is pictured in Post. 247 of the floor plans thread, the other door is pictured on the generated home plans image, post 477).

Has it been previously discussed that the Master Bedroom has a sliding glass patio door too? If Caylee was napping on the bed in that room and woke up, she could exit via the Sunroom into the backyard essentially unnoticed from other rooms in the house (see Home Plans posts 686 or 690 which are created images and posts 865 or 879 which are pictures of the A's Master bedroom). Both sets of sliding doors, MB and GR, lead out to the Sunroom first. There are two normal sized doors that one can use to exit the Sunroom to the backyard. It looks to me that from other rooms in the house, one may not notice a person going into the backyard through the MB/SR path. If you're sitting in the GR, you cannot see the pool unless you walk out into the Sunroom (see posts 530, 535, 554 or 849/852 in the Home Plans thread).

Lastly, the tall wooden fence adjacent to the garage has a gate that blends in with the fence when looking at it from the street. There is no visible lock, therefore, I conclude the lock on the gate is on the inside of the gate, within the backyard. (Post 130 A's House Plans).

magic-cat
03-29-2010, 08:30 PM
But what kind of idiot would take an accident where a child drowned and tape their whole face up and let them rot in the trunk? I just cannot come to terms with she drowned. The duct tape defies this explanation. I mean-why even bother with the duct tape? Why not just dispose of her and say all these same things she has said? Why the duct tape? This question eliminates so many possibilties for me.

chefmom
03-29-2010, 09:33 PM
But what kind of idiot would take an accident where a child drowned and tape their whole face up and let them rot in the trunk? I just cannot come to terms with she drowned. The duct tape defies this explanation. I mean-why even bother with the duct tape? Why not just dispose of her and say all these same things she has said? Why the duct tape? This question eliminates so many possibilties for me.

ITA! Besides, being the master manipulator that she is, KC would surely have milked an accident for all it was worth. She could have been the center of attention, everyone would have felt sorry for her, consoling her, prime targets for her to use and manipulate them to get exactly what she wanted. I don't buy that she was afraid to tell Cindy anything! I might have at one time, but after seeing Cindy's face and anguish on the video where KC has her now infamous fit, and how she and GA walked on eggshells and chose their words so very carefully, I don't think it was KC who was afraid of her parents. I think it was the other way around. No. I just can't see an accident no matter how I might try. I think the only reason she didn't use the accident story was because of something that would have clearly shown it was no accident. Thus why she had to hide the body. JMO, of course.

magic-cat
03-29-2010, 10:55 PM
ITA! Besides, being the master manipulator that she is, KC would surely have milked an accident for all it was worth. She could have been the center of attention, everyone would have felt sorry for her, consoling her, prime targets for her to use and manipulate them to get exactly what she wanted. I don't buy that she was afraid to tell Cindy anything! I might have at one time, but after seeing Cindy's face and anguish on the video where KC has her now infamous fit, and how she and GA walked on eggshells and chose their words so very carefully, I don't think it was KC who was afraid of her parents. I think it was the other way around. No. I just can't see an accident no matter how I might try. I think the only reason she didn't use the accident story was because of something that would have clearly shown it was no accident. Thus why she had to hide the body. JMO, of course.

Precisely. She could have used an accident to her advantage really, gotten sympathy and comfort and pity and more...but this way? She gets life in prison...It does not add up to a drowning to me.

Leila
03-29-2010, 10:59 PM
ITA! Besides, being the master manipulator that she is, KC would surely have milked an accident for all it was worth. She could have been the center of attention, everyone would have felt sorry for her, consoling her, prime targets for her to use and manipulate them to get exactly what she wanted. I don't buy that she was afraid to tell Cindy anything! I might have at one time, but after seeing Cindy's face and anguish on the video where KC has her now infamous fit, and how she and GA walked on eggshells and chose their words so very carefully, I don't think it was KC who was afraid of her parents. I think it was the other way around. No. I just can't see an accident no matter how I might try. I think the only reason she didn't use the accident story was because of something that would have clearly shown it was no accident. Thus why she had to hide the body. JMO, of course.

I agree............................

The one thing that has always bothered me about this case from the very beginning is the fact that cadaver dogs hit on three areas of the backyard.......one by the pool, one by the playhouse, and one elsewhere in the yard.

At the bond hearing it was explained by the dog handler that their cadaver dog hit on the three areas and they followed that up by bringing in an independent cadaver dog and handler (not one affiliated with the Orange County Sheriffs Dept.) and the second dog hit on the same three places. So, I think it's fairly conclusive that the cadaver dogs picked up the scent of a cadaver in the Anthony's backyard.

It's logical to assume that at some point in time there was a cadaver or clothing or blankets that the cadaver was once wrapped in, somewhere in the Anthony's backyard.

There's a pool in the backyard and it's natural to question if Caylee accidently drowned in that pool. But we know that if it was as simple as an accidental drowning, Casey would have called 911 and acted the part of the grief-stricken mother.

We know that there was duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, but other than suffocation, we don't know if Casey killed her by other means, and applied the duct tape after death, or to hasten death, or in addition to the other means. That other means would have been detected by the medical examiner. If Casey overdosed Caylee with some sort of medication, or injected her with something, that's something that would have been readily detected. So, Casey couldn't call 911 and claim an accidental drowning because a medical examiner would have found the cause of death, and it wouldn't be by drowning.

MD MOMMY
03-29-2010, 11:00 PM
Besides all that is posted above....the main reason I'm not buying the accidental pool drowning theory is, look at who the theory came from, enuff said!

chefmom
03-30-2010, 12:18 AM
I agree............................

The one thing that has always bothered me about this case from the very beginning is the fact that cadaver dogs hit on three areas of the backyard.......one by the pool, one by the playhouse, and one elsewhere in the yard.

At the bond hearing it was explained by the dog handler that their cadaver dog hit on the three areas and they followed that up by bringing in an independent cadaver dog and handler (not one affiliated with the Orange County Sheriffs Dept.) and the second dog hit on the same three places. So, I think it's fairly conclusive that the cadaver dogs picked up the scent of a cadaver in the Anthony's backyard.

It's logical to assume that at some point in time there was a cadaver or clothing or blankets that the cadaver was once wrapped in, somewhere in the Anthony's backyard.

There's a pool in the backyard and it's natural to question if Caylee accidently drowned in that pool. But we know that if it was as simple as an accidental drowning, Casey would have called 911 and acted the part of the grief-stricken mother.

We know that there was duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose, but other than suffocation, we don't know if Casey killed her by other means, and applied the duct tape after death, or to hasten death, or in addition to the other means. That other means would have been detected by the medical examiner. If Casey overdosed Caylee with some sort of medication, or injected her with something, that's something that would have been readily detected. So, Casey couldn't call 911 and claim an accidental drowning because a medical examiner would have found the cause of death, and it wouldn't be by drowning.

Yes, something with Caylee's decomp on it was in the backyard at one point for some reason. I'm thinking possibly something being rinsed off/out like the carseat, or maybe just the buckets of water that they had cleaned the trunk out with. KWIM? Scrub the stain in the trunk with soapy water then pour it out in the backyard. It would account for the different spots that were hit on by the dogs. And, since we know that KC was searching household weapons, chloroform, etc months prior to Caylee's demise, I think it is safe to assume that KC had at least thought about getting rid of her and the different ways she could "get away with it". She could have easily set her parents up for a drowning in the pool accident. "Mom, did you move the pool ladder outside? Caylee climbed in the pool today! It scared me to death! She could have drowned! We're gonna have to watch that!" A drowning would have been simple. No. I think there was something, an injury of sorts, that made an accidental drowning out of the question.

steadychick
03-30-2010, 09:57 AM
And let's not forget that Cindy herself stated that it could not have been an accident, that Casey would have called for help and told them. Nope, they all stuck with the kidnap story all the way. Couldn't admit that Casey was anyway involved in the death of her daughter.

As for the decomp in the backyard, I believe there has been some speculation in other threads that there could have been decomp on the gas cans, and that they might have been set down in the backyard.

wenwe4
03-30-2010, 11:27 AM
Wonder if the area near the pool the cadavar dogs alerted to wasn't where kc set the shovel down, after using it to lift little Caylee's decomposing body into plastic bags while in her trunk. I think kc would be lazy enough to not want to pull a hose out to wash off the shovel, rather she might wash it off in the pool? I also believe there were items washed and the water was dumped in the backyard. I don't remember seeing a sink or drain in the A's garage - near the laundry area. I think if there were a drain closer than the backyard she would have used that to dump water out. Maybe she just used pool water to clean with?

Just Jayla
03-30-2010, 11:30 AM
I used to wonder if Caylee did accidently drown and if the duct tape wasn't KC's attempt to cover her a** and try to make the death appear to be someone else's fault (like an evil kidnapper). KC's comment of "I guess I'm just a spiteful b***h" was a variant of a Freudian slip. This statement convinced me that Caylee didn't die as an accident, but rather KC killed her to punish her mother, CA.

Dr. G believes the tape was placed before or around the time of death. This means that if KC placed the tape after a drowning, in order to stage a kidnapping, she would have also been within the timeframe that she could have performed CPR on Caylee (and obviously called 911). So if we are to accept that it was an accident, how do we jive this with the time of the placement of the tape?

wenwe4
03-30-2010, 11:40 AM
As has been pointed out before, placing duct tape on damp skin does not produce good results as far as stickiness. Although, I have always wondered if the tape was place post mortem as a means to keep fluids from leaking out of Caylee's nose and mouth. If she did drown, it would be plausible that fluid would leak out, but again - it would be hard to get the tape to stick down tightly if the skin were damp. I doubt the only place the tape was sticking was her hair.

Woe.be.gone
03-30-2010, 04:19 PM
But what kind of idiot would take an accident where a child drowned and tape their whole face up and let them rot in the trunk? I just cannot come to terms with she drowned. The duct tape defies this explanation. I mean-why even bother with the duct tape? Why not just dispose of her and say all these same things she has said? Why the duct tape? This question eliminates so many possibilties for me.


It defies logic. But the answer in this case would be one who is more afraid of her own mother's reaction to what may have happened than anything else coming her way. Or, a person who is too proud to admit that a mistake resulting in a tragedy of this degree could ever have happened under their own nose. Or, some form of answers one and two combined .

For instance, if KC and GA = same, then they could have helped each other in some way to avoid CA's wrath initially, thus the snowballing out of control statement.

Or, if GA's nose was involved, he would not be able to face CA with the truth of what happened because he is too proud but then so is CA.

If KC acted totally alone, I don't understand the responses from many of her friends. Several 'guess' it must have been an accident when asked by LE to give an opinion of what they think may have happened.

If someone outside KC's family is involved, even if not directly, I don't understand why they would not step forward with information. Or, maybe they have and what they told LE has aided the conclusion that KC killed Caylee.

Woe.be.gone
03-30-2010, 04:27 PM
Another haunting remark that comes to mind every so often that I have not heard an explanation for is ~ when Lee asks KC something like, was it like what happened before? or, the same thing that happened before?

Lee suggests that something else had happened before - a near accident? a lashing out of some sort? a drunk fest? leaving Caylee unattended? a seizure? - one can only imagine. I wonder what he was referring to.

Woe.be.gone
03-30-2010, 04:38 PM
Dr. G believes the tape was placed before or around the time of death. This means that if KC placed the tape after the drowning, in order to stage a kidnapping, she would have also been within the timeframe that she could have performed CPR on Caylee (and obviously called 911). So if we are to accept that it was an accident, how do we jive this with the time of the placement of the tape?

I remember seeing a myspace message that said something about everyone dies and a friend replied 'still you don't just help them along like an animal' or something like that. These little things/remembrances lead me to believe that there are people within KC's world that know exactly what happened. They either have revealed their story to LE and we do not know it or they never did because they are too afraid.

Either way, it's terrible, because all the time, cost and speculation when someone (besides KC) may know the truth. There is even that accident that happened at Fusion that has never been fully disclosed that lingers within my thoughts. So many strange surrounding timely coincidences that could offer an explanation other than that KC just outright murdered Caylee. But, you'd think by now, someone would have come forward with additional info.

Woe.be.gone
03-30-2010, 04:54 PM
Precisely. She could have used an accident to her advantage really, gotten sympathy and comfort and pity and more...but this way? She gets life in prison...It does not add up to a drowning to me.

You're thinking 'normal' people though. If there's one thing I've noticed is that these people (the A's) none of them can admit if and when they've been wrong. Have we ever heard CA apologize to TM or LE for giving them so much grief for looking for a deceased Caylee? No, she just goes on to blame them further that because they didn't find her alive soon enough that now she IS dead and was put in that location to frame KC. No Amber alert blah, blah, blah - never addresses the fact that Amber alerts are good for the first 24 or so hours of a kidnapping. Never once does CA say she 'gets it' that an Amber alert does not fit a case when THE FACT IS that neither you, your husband or your daughter were concerned enough about your missing Grandchild to alert LE to the matter prior to finding a reeking abandoned car.

Is this normal? No wonder KC is the way she is. I just can't help but suspect a bigger picture.

ynotdivein
03-30-2010, 07:02 PM
Another haunting remark that comes to mind every so often that I have not heard an explanation for is ~ when Lee asks KC something like, was it like what happened before? or, the same thing that happened before?

Lee suggests that something else had happened before - a near accident? a lashing out of some sort? a drunk fest? leaving Caylee unattended? a seizure? - one can only imagine. I wonder what he was referring to.

WBG, do you have a quote for that? I will look too, as I remember it vaguely. I think in my head it was "this isn't like before" but my memory is sieve-like in the extreme. Did she "lose" Caylee for a period of time previously?

ETA: Agh, mods, I promise that if I find it I will take it off the ladder thread and to a discussion/theories thread. Unless I find evidence that Caylee had got up the ladder unattended before. Swearsies.

Woe.be.gone
03-30-2010, 07:27 PM
My bad. Sorry I got carried away with off-topic remarks. Can they be moved to theories thread?

Mom4life
03-30-2010, 07:57 PM
I keep going over this accidental drowning theory to see if it is even remotely possible. One obvious fact to me to consider was what was the weather like that Monday.

Using the link provided in our monthly time line the morning was 86 degrees, calm and clear until 1:53pm.

According to GA he saw KC leave the house around 12:50.
1-2 pm the computer usage was 1%
1:00 PM- AL calls
1:26 PM- texts JG
1:37 PM- text from JG
1:44 PM- calls AH
@2:00PM-GA leaves for work


From 2:00-3:00PM the computer usage was at 82%

2:53 PM- the weather was 89 degrees but mostly cloudy.

2:52 PM- call from JG which he claims he heard Caylee in the background.


* The computer usage from 3-4PM is not listed
3:04 PM- call from GA

3:23 PM- the weather was 82 degrees overcast.

3:35 PM- calls AL

At 3:48 the temperature dropped to 75 degrees and was raining.

By 3:53 it was 73 degrees and a heavy rain.


At 4:03 it was 75 degrees and a light rain.

Now the flurry of phone calls.

4:10 PM- calls GA at work
4:11 PM -calls CA twice
4:13 PM -calls CA twice
4:14 PM- calls GA
4:18 PM- texts AL

4:18 pm - cell tower pings near Chickasaw Trail

4:19 PM- text from AL
4:19 PM- calls AL
4:21 PM- calls JG twice
4:25 PM- calls CA

At 5:53 the weather is 75 degrees and clear.

The weather was warm enough and nice enough to go in the pool in the morning but then very quickly turned to heavy rain by afternoon. Narrowing down a time line, the computer was in high use from 2-3pm and KC assumptively had little interacton with Caylee. Now if JG was correct in hearing Caylee in the background we can move the time line to 3-4pm. At 3:23 it was overcast and by 3:48 it was raining. She placed a call to AL at 3:35pm. It would be between 3pm and 3:35pm for a possible quick swim. It would be interesting to see what the computer usage is for this time frame but none is listed.

The accident could be possible but IMO, I don't believe it when you add in the duct tape and chloroform. I came up with a possible scenario to explain what could have happened in that time frame. KC tells Caylee she can go for a swim. Seeing that it will rain soon makes it easy for her to get Caylee out of the pool quickly. The chloroform could be on a towel/blanket used for Caylee when she gets out of the pool making her unconsious. She could also be going thru the motions of changing her from her bathing suit making everything appear normal. KC could then apply the duct tape to her leaving her near the pool which could explain the cadaver dog hit. Leaving her wrapped up she then moves her to another place in the yard to hide her like in the playhouse which was another area the cadaver dog hit on. By this time it could be starting to sprinkle and she was rushing to get inside forgetting about the ladder by the pool. She would then return the next day to retrieve her to move her to the car. My personal opinion is this was done with intent, spite and selfishness. Whatever did happen, there is no reasonable or acceptable explanation for why it happened.

ynotdivein
03-30-2010, 08:03 PM
My bad. Sorry I got carried away with off-topic remarks. Can they be moved to theories thread?

You carried me away right with you! Still haven't found the Lee/Casey convo. Now back to finish perusing Mom4's post and pretend I have not been thinking off-topic one little bit. :angel:

ynotdivein
03-30-2010, 08:11 PM
I keep going over this accidental drowning theory to see if it is even remotely possible. One obvious fact to me to consider was what was the weather like that Monday. (SNIP) The chloroform could be on a towel/blanket used for Caylee when she gets out of the pool making her unconsious. She could also be going thru the motions of changing her from her bathing suit making everything appear normal. KC could then apply the duct tape to her leaving her near the pool which could explain the cadaver dog hit. Leaving her wrapped up she then moves her to another place in the yard to hide her like in the playhouse which was another area the cadaver dog hit on. By this time it could be starting to sprinkle and she was rushing to get inside forgetting about the ladder by the pool. She would then return the next day to retrieve her to move her to the car. My personal opinion is this was done with intent, spite and selfishness. Whatever did happen, there is no reasonable or acceptable explanation for why it happened.

RSB&UM. Mom4life, I am headed more toward the "chloroform on the blanket" theory myself and I appreciate your thoughts. I underlined that one sentence because it absolutely terrifies me to consider that perhaps she just knocked Caylee out while Caylee expected to have a vigorous post-swim drydown of the sort that I remember my mom and dad giving me... Thank you for your points on the rain that day too. More puzzle pieces going click-click-click in this little Ynot's brain, and ever-expanding respect for my fellow WSers here.

txsvicki
03-30-2010, 11:54 PM
I'd never believe an accidental drowning and hope it's not even brought up to a jury. Caylee was found with her clothes, her hair didn't seem to be put up as if swimming, and it would have been too much trouble for Casey IMO. Casey would probably have to get in the pool herself to drown her, and there might have been some sort of a struggle for survival. There's no reports of any bruises or scratches on Casey by her friends. I doubt if she'd knock her out and throw her in because there could have been vomiting or screaming. Accidental drowning also doesn't explain the searches online about missing kids, chloroform, etc. much less the duct tape across the mouth and nose. I think she was going to stage a carjacking abduction and hung onto a way to get around longer than intended. Casey had already staged a robbery at the atm machine, so that was in her M.O.

Just Jayla
03-31-2010, 12:09 AM
You carried me away right with you! Still haven't found the Lee/Casey convo. Now back to finish perusing Mom4's post and pretend I have not been thinking off-topic one little bit. :angel:

I'm guilty, too-Just found my posts on chloroform, the ladder, and trunk stains all over the forum-Gotta watch what I'm doing and where my brain is straying! :angel:

ynotdivein
03-31-2010, 12:46 AM
According to GA he saw KC leave the house around 12:50.
1-2 pm the computer usage was 1%
1:00 PM- AL calls

Possible date ask, which led to attempts to find babysitter? And then if no one took the bait (see following contacts) KC was so frustrated she did something bad & took it out on her baby?

1:26 PM- texts JG
1:37 PM- text from JG
1:44 PM- calls AH
@2:00PM-GA leaves for work


From 2:00-3:00PM the computer usage was at 82%

Doing what? Do we know if she was IMing friends here trying to get a babysitter?

2:53 PM- the weather was 89 degrees but mostly cloudy.

2:52 PM- call from JG which he claims he heard Caylee in the background.


* The computer usage from 3-4PM is not listed
3:04 PM- call from GA

He left an hour ago supposedly. What's to call about?

3:23 PM- the weather was 82 degrees overcast.

3:35 PM- calls AL

So GA called at 3:04 what, "just to check in"?, then she called Tony 31 minutes later...

At 3:48 the temperature dropped to 75 degrees and was raining.

By 3:53 it was 73 degrees and a heavy rain.

At 4:03 it was 75 degrees and a light rain.

Now the flurry of phone calls.

So between 3:35 and 4:10 something happened to crank the urgency up, either to find a babysitter or to find help with whatever happened to Caylee. But it was raining. Odds that Caylee chose to take a dip in the pool minimal. Also, if something happened to Caylee in this timeframe it's hard to think that KC would experience it, spend 8 minutes trying unsuccessfully to contact her parents, and then give up and text Tony at 4:18:


4:10 PM- calls GA at work
4:11 PM -calls CA twice
4:13 PM -calls CA twice
4:14 PM- calls GA
4:18 PM- texts AL

4:18 pm - cell tower pings near Chickasaw Trail

4:19 PM- text from AL
4:19 PM- calls AL
4:21 PM- calls JG twice
4:25 PM- calls CA

At this time was she still trying to find a sitter? Getting more desperate about it maybe, since AL had called her FOUR HOURS AGO maybe seeing if they could spend some "alone time" together that night?

Significantly, what and how was Caylee feeling that day? Afternoon rain keeping her from swimming maybe; mommy spending time on the computer instead of paying attention to her... anyone who has been around 2+ year olds knows the kinds of fits they can pitch. A self-absorbed mother without her own parental reinforcements present (why did you call an hour after leaving again, GA?) might do almost anything to quiet her down, especially if said mother had hot plans for the evening...

I do believe that whatever ended Caylee's life happened that day. I think that Caylee was in the trunk by that night, probably wrapped in the blanket only, no bags. Mom4life, your meteorology is convincing me even more that this was no accidental drowning... (As if the duct tape didn't speak for itself, but that could have been a post-mortem ploy as other posters have posited.)

As my good friend Clover might say: MOO MOO MOO

Woe.be.gone
03-31-2010, 01:18 AM
Everyone has such good points/counter points.

My problem is that I don't trust/believe GA any more than I trust/believe KC.
The fact that he called at 3:04PM after he had just left home to go to work an hour earlier and claims that KC left with Caylee two hours prior, makes no sense. Who was he calling and why?

Does LE examine these little weirdnesses, compare them to other typical days and demand reasonable explanations for them? It makes no sense that GA would contact an empty house or even call KC on her cell upon immediate arrival to his workplace. :waitasec:

Aedrys
03-31-2010, 08:02 AM
Everyone has such good points/counter points.

My problem is that I don't trust/believe GA any more than I trust/believe KC.
The fact that he called at 3:04PM after he had just left home to go to work an hour earlier and claims that KC left with Caylee two hours prior, makes no sense. Who was he calling and why?

Does LE examine these little weirdnesses, compare them to other typical days and demand reasonable explanations for them? It makes no sense that GA would contact an empty house or even call KC on her cell upon immediate arrival to his workplace. :waitasec:

Probably because he's been lying with almost every word that comes out of his mouth. He most definitely lied about the last time he saw Caylee (In his microscope note, he identifies the 15th, not the 16th, being an important day. Wouldn't the last day you saw your granddaughter be an important day? So probably the last time he saw her was the 15th). He was probably calling to see if Casey was at the house, and was probably bothered him because he didn't see Caylee that morning. He may have been calling to talk to Caylee or see if she was okay. Probably knowing that Casey wasn't working and returned to the house everyday, he figured he could call her there and she would answer. Remember, he knew what Casey really did everyday, he just wouldn't do anything because Cindy said not to. Or more likely, Cindy always took care of Casey's problems, so George got lazy and just let Cindy worry about it...except at this point, he was probably actually worried that something might have actually happened to Caylee.

You really can't trust anything this entire family says. And I don't believe for a second a drowning was involved. That's way too easy to milk for all the attention in the world. No, she panicked because of the duct tape and knew that couldn't easily be explained by an accident. What is she going to say, that she accidently put duct tape on Caylee? Yeah, she accidently fell on Caylee while holding duct tape in her hands three times...even Casey was smart enough to know that wasn't going to fly with her family...

spyhouston
03-31-2010, 08:22 AM
Why did GA call KC that afternoon??? He certainly didn't need to know her plans because she had already told him that they were going to stay at Zanny's that night and she had already told CA the plans IIRC. Why did KC need to pick up Caylee at 5 PM 'like a normal day' if Caylee was going to stay the night??? Lots of lying going, like we didn't already know that!!!

CA Mom
03-31-2010, 08:35 AM
Why did GA call KC that afternoon??? He certainly didn't need to know her plans because she had already told him that they were going to stay at Zanny's that night and she had already told CA the plans IIRC. Why did KC need to pick up Caylee at 5 PM 'like a normal day' if Caylee was going to stay the night??? Lots of lying going, like we didn't already know that!!!


Without looking at phone records, I seem to remember that GA RARELY called KC by phone. I'm also wondering "why the call from GA?"

DaughterAlice
03-31-2010, 08:41 AM
I have a crazy thought, and I don't have time to read all the previous posts, so I'll feel foolish if this has already been discussed.

What if moving the ladder was sort of a knee-jerk reaction by CA or GA after the realization of what may have really happened to Caylee? They didn't know the circumstances at the time, nothing about where her body was, or the duct tape, or the 31 days of party, or the tattoo, but they maybe DID suspect something, so . . . . why not give KC a possible alibi? I'm not saying it was well thought out or anything - but maybe it was something along the lines of "set the scene & we'll think of a story to fill it in later."

Yeah, I know . . . crazy, right?:crazy:

wenwe4
03-31-2010, 08:59 AM
What bothers me is if the fight the night before was so "violent" that CA tried to choke kc, why the flurry of calls to her Mom that afternoon? The same person she was so angry with, kc making calls to her "perpetrator" and asking for help? KC also didn't see CA in the morning before she left for work, so this is the first verbal contact since the choking incident? Since KC told GA she and Caylee were going to spend the nite @ Zanny's, what would be the need to have a babysitter w/the gparents?

Just Jayla
03-31-2010, 09:10 AM
Probably because he's been lying with almost every word that comes out of his mouth. He most definitely lied about the last time he saw Caylee (In his microscope note, he identifies the 15th, not the 16th, being an important day. Wouldn't the last day you saw your granddaughter be an important day? So probably the last time he saw her was the 15th). He was probably calling to see if Casey was at the house, and was probably bothered him because he didn't see Caylee that morning. He may have been calling to talk to Caylee or see if she was okay. Probably knowing that Casey wasn't working and returned to the house everyday, he figured he could call her there and she would answer. Remember, he knew what Casey really did everyday, he just wouldn't do anything because Cindy said not to. Or more likely, Cindy always took care of Casey's problems, so George got lazy and just let Cindy worry about it...except at this point, he was probably actually worried that something might have actually happened to Caylee.

You really can't trust anything this entire family says. And I don't believe for a second a drowning was involved. That's way too easy to milk for all the attention in the world. No, she panicked because of the duct tape and knew that couldn't easily be explained by an accident. What is she going to say, that she accidently put duct tape on Caylee? Yeah, she accidently fell on Caylee while holding duct tape in her hands three times...even Casey was smart enough to know that wasn't going to fly with her family...

I do agree that they are not to be trusted, and I also agree with the direction you are going as far as George-seemed like it was becoming a frequent thing that GA was challenging KC on her behavior. Going to Sports Authoirty was not about a robbery-He knew she did not work there and wanted to bust her-He knew the deposit slip was fake...He was calling her, which is atypical for a guy that is working unless he had a reason to call-and he was right on her butt about the gas cans. Furthermore, he definately pegged her for hurting Caylee, he stated his hesitation to believe this to LE, but not upon their prompt, upon his own inner conflict.
Maybe he was feeling his oats, FINALLY, and was gathering his evidence before he laid it out for CA once and for all. KC was of the age where GA had a reasonable expectation for her to be (at least looking to be) gone out of their house and on their own. It was time for George to enjoy his wife alone, they had raised their kids.
Futile exercises for GA anyway, seems he just decided to go along with CA instead of making his presentation against KC, because that would have made him look like a real jerk to dump on KC while she was being "dumped on" by LE and the media.
So to bring it back around to the topic at hand, I have to wonder what went through GA's head about the ladder-Did he believe CA when she called and asked about it? Did he think to himself that maybe KC placed it there as a cover up? Did GA come up with the ladder story himself? He clearly knew something was hinky about it, according to Tracey's account of his body language when KC brought the ladder up in conversation.

nyvictoria
03-31-2010, 09:27 AM
I have a crazy thought, and I don't have time to read all the previous posts, so I'll feel foolish if this has already been discussed.

What if moving the ladder was sort of a knee-jerk reaction by CA or GA after the realization of what may have really happened to Caylee? They didn't know the circumstances at the time, nothing about where her body was, or the duct tape, or the 31 days of party, or the tattoo, but they maybe DID suspect something, so . . . . why not give KC a possible alibi? I'm not saying it was well thought out or anything - but maybe it was something along the lines of "set the scene & we'll think of a story to fill it in later."

Yeah, I know . . . crazy, right?:crazy:

The only "crazy" thoughts in this case are those spouted by the Anthony camp :crazy: As far as they go, nothing at all would surprise me. IF, and that's a big if, the ladder was moved, I'd be willing to side with your theory that it may have been a staged scene and probably one of many they considered. It calls to mind Cindy urging Casey (wink wink) to say she borrowed the shovel to cut the bamboo. Nothing was off limits. I'm convinced they pretty much immediately knew Casey was responsible but they were willing to sell their souls to the devil anyway and did so at every turn!

Jolynna
03-31-2010, 09:47 AM
I keep going over this accidental drowning theory to see if it is even remotely possible. One obvious fact to me to consider was what was the weather like that Monday.

Using the link provided in our monthly time line the morning was 86 degrees, calm and clear until 1:53pm.

According to GA he saw KC leave the house around 12:50.
1-2 pm the computer usage was 1%
1:00 PM- AL calls
1:26 PM- texts JG
1:37 PM- text from JG
1:44 PM- calls AH
@2:00PM-GA leaves for work


From 2:00-3:00PM the computer usage was at 82%

2:53 PM- the weather was 89 degrees but mostly cloudy.

2:52 PM- call from JG which he claims he heard Caylee in the background.


* The computer usage from 3-4PM is not listed
3:04 PM- call from GA

3:23 PM- the weather was 82 degrees overcast.

3:35 PM- calls AL

At 3:48 the temperature dropped to 75 degrees and was raining.

By 3:53 it was 73 degrees and a heavy rain.


At 4:03 it was 75 degrees and a light rain.

Now the flurry of phone calls.

4:10 PM- calls GA at work
4:11 PM -calls CA twice
4:13 PM -calls CA twice
4:14 PM- calls GA
4:18 PM- texts AL

4:18 pm - cell tower pings near Chickasaw Trail

4:19 PM- text from AL
4:19 PM- calls AL
4:21 PM- calls JG twice
4:25 PM- calls CA

At 5:53 the weather is 75 degrees and clear.

The weather was warm enough and nice enough to go in the pool in the morning but then very quickly turned to heavy rain by afternoon. Narrowing down a time line, the computer was in high use from 2-3pm and KC assumptively had little interacton with Caylee. Now if JG was correct in hearing Caylee in the background we can move the time line to 3-4pm. At 3:23 it was overcast and by 3:48 it was raining. She placed a call to AL at 3:35pm. It would be between 3pm and 3:35pm for a possible quick swim. It would be interesting to see what the computer usage is for this time frame but none is listed.

The accident could be possible but IMO, I don't believe it when you add in the duct tape and chloroform. I came up with a possible scenario to explain what could have happened in that time frame. KC tells Caylee she can go for a swim. Seeing that it will rain soon makes it easy for her to get Caylee out of the pool quickly. The chloroform could be on a towel/blanket used for Caylee when she gets out of the pool making her unconsious. She could also be going thru the motions of changing her from her bathing suit making everything appear normal. KC could then apply the duct tape to her leaving her near the pool which could explain the cadaver dog hit. Leaving her wrapped up she then moves her to another place in the yard to hide her like in the playhouse which was another area the cadaver dog hit on. By this time it could be starting to sprinkle and she was rushing to get inside forgetting about the ladder by the pool. She would then return the next day to retrieve her to move her to the car. My personal opinion is this was done with intent, spite and selfishness. Whatever did happen, there is no reasonable or acceptable explanation for why it happened.

BBM

If Caylee had been out for any length of time, blow flies would have found the fresh corpse and laid eggs. The eggs would have hatched after Caylee went into the trunk. Which didn't happen.

Only "coffin flies" which can wriggle into tight sealed containers (like a car trunk) were found in the trunk. There were only "coffin fly" eggs, maggots, cocoons. If Caylee had been out anywhere not tightly sealed overnight, there would have been signs in the trunk of blow fly colonization too.

Aedrys
03-31-2010, 02:29 PM
I have a crazy thought, and I don't have time to read all the previous posts, so I'll feel foolish if this has already been discussed.

What if moving the ladder was sort of a knee-jerk reaction by CA or GA after the realization of what may have really happened to Caylee? They didn't know the circumstances at the time, nothing about where her body was, or the duct tape, or the 31 days of party, or the tattoo, but they maybe DID suspect something, so . . . . why not give KC a possible alibi? I'm not saying it was well thought out or anything - but maybe it was something along the lines of "set the scene & we'll think of a story to fill it in later."

Yeah, I know . . . crazy, right?:crazy:

That's not crazy at all. In fact, I'm betting the unfortunate accident route was the first thing to pop into Cindy's mind - you know, we can spin this and get lots of sympathy and attention, and deflect it away from a cold blooded killing. The pool was most likely the easiest avenue for that, so I think Cindy moved it or got George to move it and they were going to go with a pool accident until Casey scoffed that idea. Then they couldn't use that idea
anymore and just left the ladder where they moved it to.

I wouldn't put anything past these people. When people's reaction to a murder is how can we use this to our advantage, there is something seriously wrong with those people. It wasn't let's find her and bring her home, it was how can we exploit this situation and make money off of it. They are truly sick, disgusting people, and had Casey gone along with it, they would have claimed an unforunate pool accident happened. Not that that would have worked, especially after the remains were found, but they would have tried it. If they still read here, it probably amuses them that a pool accident is still being debated.

Woe.be.gone
03-31-2010, 02:39 PM
Probably because he's been lying with almost every word that comes out of his mouth. He most definitely lied about the last time he saw Caylee (In his microscope note, he identifies the 15th, not the 16th, being an important day. Wouldn't the last day you saw your granddaughter be an important day? So probably the last time he saw her was the 15th). He was probably calling to see if Casey was at the house, and was probably bothered him because he didn't see Caylee that morning. He may have been calling to talk to Caylee or see if she was okay. Probably knowing that Casey wasn't working and returned to the house everyday, he figured he could call her there and she would answer. Remember, he knew what Casey really did everyday, he just wouldn't do anything because Cindy said not to. Or more likely, Cindy always took care of Casey's problems, so George got lazy and just let Cindy worry about it...except at this point, he was probably actually worried that something might have actually happened to Caylee...

snipped bm and BBM.

Yes, and Casey learned everything she knows from her old man, GA.

Woe.be.gone
03-31-2010, 03:04 PM
I have a crazy thought, and I don't have time to read all the previous posts, so I'll feel foolish if this has already been discussed.

What if moving the ladder was sort of a knee-jerk reaction by CA or GA after the realization of what may have really happened to Caylee? They didn't know the circumstances at the time, nothing about where her body was, or the duct tape, or the 31 days of party, or the tattoo, but they maybe DID suspect something, so . . . . why not give KC a possible alibi? I'm not saying it was well thought out or anything - but maybe it was something along the lines of "set the scene & we'll think of a story to fill it in later."

Yeah, I know . . . crazy, right?:crazy:

Except, between ladder moving and gas can stealing, there was a lot of digging and bush/storage box moving going on, brick laying, pool filter changing and waiting around for two people to come home who have always lived there, text messages, bs phone calls and supposed tactical diversions, high speed car chases that cannot be substantiated, bs bamboo digging episodes as well as various other clues to mysterious backyard activities like trained sniffer dog hits on sand boxes and poolside areas as well as car trunk. Let us not forget lime spreading.

True, none of the above may have anything to do with the pool.

My favorite is the sudden urge KC had to clear the yard of bamboo shoots so the child she knew would never be returning to play there again wouldn't end up tripping on the bamboo - is that some kind of a clue? So weird. KC is out and about, decides to drive home, borrows a shovel from the neighbor after she backs her car into the driveway, why? Because, as per CA, Casey needed to remove bamboo from the patio cracks. Did I hear someone say cracK?

Let us not forget that KC proclaimed in front of Tracy that she used the borrowed shovel to get the ladder out of the pool. Ummmm. Could this have been the day that CA noticed the ladder near the pool and the gate left open? Why would KC make that statement in front of her parents and Tracy too? It's either a dig to her parents or the truth, one or the other. It could be a bald faced lie too but why lie about that and not just stick to the bamboo shoot story?

Causes one to wonder :waitasec:.

steadychick
03-31-2010, 04:21 PM
What bothers me is if the fight the night before was so "violent" that CA tried to choke kc, why the flurry of calls to her Mom that afternoon? The same person she was so angry with, kc making calls to her "perpetrator" and asking for help? KC also didn't see CA in the morning before she left for work, so this is the first verbal contact since the choking incident? Since KC told GA she and Caylee were going to spend the nite @ Zanny's, what would be the need to have a babysitter w/the gparents?

First, fight or no fight, I think if KC needed a sitter, she would call anyone and everyone no matter what their relationship at the moment. Most telling, IMO, is that Cindy did not answer or call KC back. Cindy was angry and probably refused to return the calls. In addition, if as some speculate, KC then went to Gentiva to try to drop Caylee off before proceeding to Tony's (I believe cell pings support this possibility), Cindy may have assumed KC was on her way and made sure she was gone when KC arrived.

Second, I think you hit on an important "mistruth" in GA's statements. We're all pretty convinced that GA knew she wasn't working, so whatever story she she told him (if she did) about going to work is a lie and George knew it. IF she told him that she and Caylee were spending the night with a friend, it may be that she was planning on taking Caylee with her to Tony's, but ran into opposition that afternoon from Tony about doing that and had to quickly change her plans and find find someone to take Caylee. Sure would like to know what her conversations with Tony that day were about. For that matter, have we heard anything about the content of her conversations/texts with her friends and Tony that day? If she told any of them that she needed a sitter that day, she is toast. Too much to hope for??????:waitasec:

nanny2five
03-31-2010, 05:25 PM
Another haunting remark that comes to mind every so often that I have not heard an explanation for is ~ when Lee asks KC something like, was it like what happened before? or, the same thing that happened before?

Lee suggests that something else had happened before - a near accident? a lashing out of some sort? a drunk fest? leaving Caylee unattended? a seizure? - one can only imagine. I wonder what he was referring to.

i saw that too Woe.be.gone in my memory lee says "was it like the last time" but i could be wrong about the exact wording. i wondered if maybe Caylee had almost gotten into the pool or even gotten in and they found her in the nick of time. i dont really believe she drowned in the pool but if we knew what lee was talking about when he said that it might shed some light on the matter.

TallyHo
02-25-2011, 11:38 AM
Bumping for re-revisiting... :crazy:

pip
02-25-2011, 12:21 PM
Ahhh, when all else has failed at pin the tail on the donkey, the defense resorts to "it was an accident" (which I do not believe at all). This tells us the defense is at the end of their rope with drumming up a plausible 'she didn't do it' defense for her. So ICA is ready to say Caylee drown and she disposed of the body? Explain the duct tape. Wouldn't this defense require ICA to take the stand to change her sworn story from Zanny to a drowning?

believe09
02-25-2011, 12:55 PM
Certainly will solidify a judgement on Zanny's lawsuit. Just sayin.

cloud9
02-25-2011, 01:13 PM
Just thinking...

IF Caylee drowned in the pool from an accident, ICA could have called 911. Would that not have served ICA (in her own mind) well in getting rid of Caylee once and for all.

IF ICA drowned Caylee (not an accident) would it not have served ICA well by calling 911 and claiming it WAS an accident?

Easier, did, done and over.

BUT that's not how things played out. Sooooo, as far as the pool what am I missing? :)

kaRN
02-25-2011, 01:23 PM
I think if the defense tries to pull this carp off, then the SAO should play the jury this little tidbit :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xJi0Lu_fc starting at the 2:15 minute mark.

There was no accidental drowning. ICA says so. :great:

Intermezzo
02-25-2011, 01:34 PM
Valhalls timeline shows June 17th as the day the pool ladder was discovered and the storage box moved over near the pool.

GA in his LE interview originally stated this happened AFTER the gas can incident on the 24th......but later he and CA state it was 6-17.

I forgot about the storage box being moved over near the pool

And this was also the Shovel borrowing day...

Intermezzo
02-25-2011, 01:36 PM
Debbie Bennett Interview with LE....Pool Discussion on page 13. States that a few days before the gas can incident that CA told her that she came home and let the dogs out and was worried they would get out.
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974353/detail.html

bumping this post for reference
Thanks SOTS

Intermezzo
02-25-2011, 01:37 PM
Debbie Bennett Interview with LE....Pool Discussion on page 13. States that a few days before the gas can incident that CA told her that she came home and let the dogs out and was worried they would get out.
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974353/detail.html

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974353/detail.html

sleutherontheside, I'm going to type out the conversation as this is significant - great find. Page 13 and 14. Yuri talking to Debbie B. who is CA's coworker at Gentiva. Interview on November 24, 2008.

Y - Did she seek counseling in June or July?

DB - says she found out when the daughter had been gone a week or so and she was missing her daughter from that point on. And then the gas can situation, where she had thought someone swimming in her pool.

DB - I think that was around Father's Day I want to say, yeah. Ah...

Y - The gas can incident was...I'll tell you that that was the 23rd of June.

DB - Oh okay.

Y - So, that was right at the end of June.

DB - Okay

Y - You mentioned something about the pool and so I want to touch on that.

DB - Yeah. Yeah.

Y - You said she, she told you. . .

DB - She came into work that day and said that she thought someone was swimming in her pool. And I looked at her and said, that's what people do is swim in the pool. And she goes no you don't understand someone's been in the pool but I haven't been home. And I said what makes you think that? And she said she came home one day and I guess the side gate was open 'cause she lets her dogs out.

Y - Un-huh (affirmative)

DB - and I guess the dogs started to go out and she was worried she was gonna lose her dogs. And then um, the ladder was off the pool and it's an above ground pool. And she said she always takes the ladder off and puts it away from the pool so that the child doesn't get in the pool.

Y - When did this conversation take place in relationship to the gas can incident? Was it before or after do you remember?

DB - Before because then I found out I want to say that was one day and then a couple of days later then she came back and said someone's been in my yard again. Someone's been in our shed George is calling the police ..


Cindy tells Debbie the morning of June 23 about the gas cans because that was the day that GA called the police. Does that mean that the gas cans were noticed missing on June 22? Or did GA call CA at work and tell her this in the AM on the 23rd? (I know this has been sleuthed because KC shows up later at the house with the gas cans on the 23rd and it is believed that CA tipped KC off which doesn't make much sense to me). Did we ever determine how CA knew that the gas cans were missing considering she leaves for work early in the morning? Or is GA building a case/trail for yard invasion? Why did GA later report to LE how he found the cans in KC's trunk later that day on the 23rd but he never called LE to tell them that when he did.

The SIGNIFICANT thing is that Debbie was able to recall that the ladder/gate story took place BEFORE June 23rd which is consistent with what CA has reported. DB doesn't confirm the day as June 17 though. Debbie would have likely heard about the ladder on June 18 if the ladder/gate observation took place on June 17 as per CA. That would be a full week earlier than gas can day.* :waitasec:

*Noting, I'm happy Debbie recalls that the ladder incident took place BEFORE the gas can incident considering she is being asked questions about her conversations with Cindy five months after they took place.


ADDING: http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/files/george_anthony_burglary.pdf
I copied the above as it appears in the Docs. The gas can report is dated June 24, 2008. Proof as per linked copy here.[/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------


bumpity:bump:

sumbunny
02-25-2011, 01:38 PM
I seemed to remember the date around the 24th as well. I think CA and Georgie are telling half truths!!!

Clearly they want the defense to use the drowning accident theory and are trying to paint a truthful story.

I betcha a dollar the ladder was mysteriously moved closer to the 24th. Not the 17th.

sumbunny
02-25-2011, 01:40 PM
George reported the missing gas cans on June 24th. Actual police documentation for that.

USARDOG
02-25-2011, 01:45 PM
I am also one who thinks KC's fist plan was to fake a drowning and then she decided that there was something wrong with the scene, so she fell back on plan B, Caylee kidnapped. I believe the ladder was something used in the act of a pretend drowning, possibly to retrieve Caylee from the pool. I think she thought of burying her in the back yard, but thought better of that idea also, before deciding on her old burial ground behind the school, where she had buried her pets in the past.

LolaMoon08
02-25-2011, 02:16 PM
I seemed to remember the date around the 24th as well. I think CA and Georgie are telling half truths!!!

Clearly they want the defense to use the drowning accident theory and are trying to paint a truthful story.

I betcha a dollar the ladder was mysteriously moved closer to the 24th. Not the 17th.

Cindy doesn't even believe that Caylee accidentally drowned in the swimming pool. I forget what interview (I believe it was one of the Larry King interviews) she says that Casey would not lie about (cover-up) an accident. Something like that...

ZsaZsa
02-25-2011, 02:31 PM
I think if the defense tries to pull this carp off, then the SAO should play the jury this little tidbit :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xJi0Lu_fc starting at the 2:15 minute mark.

There was no accidental drowning. ICA says so. :great:

Thanks for that reminder!
Evidently CM doesn't watch You tube or belong to WS or he would have seen this video.
So much for that idea CM:bricks:....

Purple Iris
02-25-2011, 02:39 PM
The very first week, Cindy and George put out a drowning when they had one of their interviews with Greta.

Cindy sat there with the camera rolling, and even said they wondered if Caylee had drown, that "children drown all of the time, and are brought back", then, she dummied up.

costalpilot
02-25-2011, 03:05 PM
I don't believe for a second it was a pool accident based on the 31 day party.

The 31 day party is speaking for poor little Caylee.

AZlawyer
02-25-2011, 04:43 PM
Are you guys discussing the new "intentional drowning" theory in here? I can't believe I didn't think of it until TP's news story last night about CM's questioning of Dr. G!

So now this is my new theory, thanks to CM jogging my brain cells. :) KC puts duct tape on Caylee's mouth--maybe nose--maybe hands--who cares, because the mouth is enough for a toddler who needs water wings and would be panicking--:(--and throws her into the pool to drown ON PURPOSE.

The pool ladder, shovel, and cadaver dog hits in the back yard might tie in to this story. And I think the adipocere on the paper towels would make more sense with a drowning scenario as well!

PLEASE PLEASE if JA or one of the other State Attorneys reads here, make sure that Dr. G gets this possibility into the minds of the jurors. When CM asks her, "Are your findings also consistent with a drowning in the family pool?" she should respond, "They are consistent with the child having been duct taped and thrown into the pool to drown, yes."

gitana1
02-25-2011, 04:52 PM
Are you guys discussing the new "intentional drowning" theory in here? I can't believe I didn't think of it until TP's news story last night about CM's questioning of Dr. G!

So now this is my new theory, thanks to CM jogging my brain cells. :) KC puts duct tape on Caylee's mouth--maybe nose--maybe hands--who cares, because the mouth is enough for a toddler who needs water wings and would be panicking--:(--and throws her into the pool to drown ON PURPOSE.

The pool ladder, shovel, and cadaver dog hits in the back yard might tie in to this story. And I think the adipocere on the paper towels would make more sense with a drowning scenario as well!

PLEASE PLEASE if JA or one of the other State Attorneys reads here, make sure that Dr. G gets this possibility into the minds of the jurors. When CM asks her, "Are your findings also consistent with a drowning in the family pool?" she should respond, "They are consistent with the child having been duct taped and thrown into the pool to drown, yes."

Intentional drowning was one of my theories from a long time ago but I figured she chloroformed Caylee and then let her sink to the bottom. Of course, with the body found with duct tape, that adds a dimension but I still think she chloroformed her, then maybe taped her and let her drown. I really don't think she was conscious when she was killed. That's usually too brutal for mothers who kill.

Chiquita71
02-25-2011, 05:01 PM
:twocents: (from my notes) :)

I thought I had transcribed the whole GVS interview, but I was mistaken. :(

(notes)
As early as July 15th, late at night rolling into the 16th( YM is stating that Cindy called and left a message) Cindy and George "brainstorming" the gate being open and the ladder up at pool.

GA: My wife and I were brainstorming. Uh, all(inaudible) to our insight and I said, there's got to be more to this mess. She said, "George do you remember that day I found the ladder down and also the gate? I says, yeah.
(end snip)

GVS: Now, I know you won't reveal the details, but can you just tell me, has Casey told you what happened to that child?
CA: Yes. In her way. And I can't reveal that.
GVS: But in her way, so that I mean, I know George that it was at least reported that you came out the other day and said that Casey said that Caylee was close, which is you know, rather vague. Is that, is that the kind of information that Cindy, you have or do you have like, specific information that satisfies you?
CA: She just feels that Caylee's close, shes still safe.
(end snip)

CA: They are saying Caylee drown in the pool.
KC: Surprise, surprise.
(end snip)

Okay defense, Caylee drown in the pool. Will Casey agree to this? What about Zanny?

:websleuther:

momtective
02-25-2011, 05:39 PM
I think if the defense tries to pull this carp off, then the SAO should play the jury this little tidbit :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3xJi0Lu_fc starting at the 2:15 minute mark.

There was no accidental drowning. ICA says so. :great:

Yes indeed...Surprise, Surprise! :great:

Gma Kat
02-25-2011, 08:48 PM
If the pool was involved I can see the scenario of being taped first. No screaming. In RP's email to CA he states a neighbor heard splashing on the afternoon of the 16th. CA responds that she has never heard that. A duct taped CAylee thrashing for her life would explain the pool noise. But I have never found a secondary source for that statement other than RP himself in the email. I thought initially ICA would claim that GA and CA left the pool accessible to Caylee and that she covered it up to protect THEM. But golly, I have had so many theories on what happened I feel the need to write a murder mystery just to use up what my imagination has dealt me.

Intermezzo
02-26-2011, 12:52 AM
What if the "ladder by the pool and gate left open" happened the same day the "shovel was borrowed"? KC tried to stage an accident. Caylee is already dead but KC was going to put Caylee into the pool, call CA and GA and say that "Caylee got into the pool and isn't breathing" -
KC decided not to stage the accident, borrowed the shovel to bury Caylee decided against that and Caylee stayed in the trunk


I was trying to come up with any possible scenario but after I typed that - it makes sense

I really am starting to convince myself that KC was going to try and stage an accident on the 17th or 18th, after Caylee was dead

IMO if Caylee did drown, it was because her mother held her head under the water! With all the circumstantial evidence we have seen to date, there is no way that I can believe this little girls death was an accident.

IMO good points made by you both

ynotdivein
02-26-2011, 01:25 AM
The piece of duct tape found away from the remains keeps coming back to me... the one WSers posited might have been wrapped around Caylee's wrists.

LiveLaughLuv
02-26-2011, 09:21 AM
This makes me furious...intentional drowning??? This is a sure fire way to get sentenced to DEATH!

Whatever defense they come up with for it to have any bearing or credibility, ICA must take the stand in her own defense. I want to see this, I want to see her sit and squirm on the stand and tell this, or it won't do any good and it won't be believed. Not that it will be anyway. :innocent:

This just gives it more of an evil tone to Caylee's demise....and the fact her mother supports this is just too much to handle...I can't stand this family for they are turning their backs on Caylee and thumbing their noses at the state....all for WHO? ICA? She's not worth it....JMHO

Justice for Caylee

TotallyObsessed
02-26-2011, 10:20 AM
This makes me furious...intentional drowning??? This is a sure fire way to get sentenced to DEATH!

Whatever defense they come up with for it to have any bearing or credibility, ICA must take the stand in her own defense. I want to see this, I want to see her sit and squirm on the stand and tell this, or it won't do any good and it won't be believed. Not that it will be anyway. :innocent:

This just gives it more of an evil tone to Caylee's demise....and the fact her mother supports this is just too much to handle...I can't stand this family for they are turning their backs on Caylee and thumbing their noses at the state....all for WHO? ICA? She's not worth it....JMHO

Justice for Caylee

No...I think what is being said here is that an intentional drowning needs to be the State's rebuttal to an "accidental drowning" theory by the defense.

KenoshaKid
02-26-2011, 11:16 AM
I wish we could give KC some magical truth serum and hear how Caylee actually died. I really want to know that. :maddening:

belle3
02-26-2011, 11:30 AM
now that i think about it, this is one of the only theories out there that kc herself kind of always brushed off. since we know that everything she says is a lie, cant we assume that her "denial" of this theory might be the closest to the truth? her "surprise, surprise" reaction to this theory always struck me as weird. Could she have been so evil as to duct tape her child and throw her in the pool? I think we all know the answer to that question. Ive always thought that the duct tape was a personal message of some type that included a fair amount of rage and preparation, but it never occurred to me how easy it could have been for her to do all of that and just throw her in the pool to die. the place where caylee and her grandparents used to play and have fun. Talk about a real dig to ca and ga. kc never really loved caylee at all, did she.
She totally planned the murder of her daughter. Wow!

Intermezzo
02-26-2011, 12:13 PM
The piece of duct tape found away from the remains keeps coming back to me... the one WSers posited might have been wrapped around Caylee's wrists.

At the Hearing where Ashton talks about Caylee and her last moments..he does bring up Caylee's arms/hands being Restrained .

CBTampa
02-26-2011, 12:18 PM
You have to remember when she uttered "Surprise Surpise" she was still trying to insinuate that Caylee was still alive. I think the weirdness of that utterance was about as close as we will get to the real truth. I think she died in that pool either by accident or by her murderess mother. Hopefully the real truth will come out at the trial. IMO

Intermezzo
02-26-2011, 12:44 PM
June 17th

Caylee was last seen on June 15th, June 16th if you believe George.
Casey goes to boyfriend TL's on June 16 and does not return home to sleep..Where is Caylee?
Casey backs car into garage
Casey borrows Shovel from neighbor "to do some gardening", she needs to cut down some bamboo plants..returns shovel 1 hour later..
Cindy returns home from work and notices gate open and ladder by the pool...calls George to ask if he forgot to put them away...
Storage box was moved close to the pool

Tracy M LE interview
Tracey says Casey said she used the shovel to get the ladder out of the pool...Cindy quickly chimes in with the Bamboo story.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88554&highlight=tracy+mclaughlin
2008.09.18 Tracy M Interview Audio #1

Quote MADJGNLAW Post #150 snipped
First day home, no mention of Caylee. She said that Casey was bragging about how well they were treating her in jail, how they sneak her food in the jail. Talking about what she wanted to eat for dinner (salmon patties) and it seemed like a real happy time.

Cindy was teaching Tracy how to make the patties.
As they were making salmon patties, Casey and Cindy brought up the shovel, Tracy was just listening in.

Casey said, hello they didn't even have time-line right
Cindy said yeah they didn't even know what you were doing
Casey then said hello I was using it to take the bamboo down and get the ladder out of the pool
Cindy looks at her like shut up and George comes in and starts shaking his looking in the cupboard.
Tracy claims that they said the shovels at the home were locked in the shed and Casey said they didn't have the time right and Cindy then told Tracy later that the reason the shovel was used was because Casey needed to knock the bamboo out.

Tracy M LE Interview
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0904/20727056.mp3 Part 1
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0904/20727241.mp3 Part 2
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0904/20728058.mp3 Part 3
http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0904/20728058.mp3 Part 4

----------------------------

If we believe that there is a grain of truth in Casey's lies then IMO the pool and ladder (along with borrowing the shovel) plays a role in how Casey killed or tried to cover up Caylee's death.

:twocents:

okiedokietoo
02-26-2011, 01:13 PM
Maybe ICA was going to use the neighbor as a witness. Go over and borrow the shovel looking like everything was just "fine and dandy" and just a normal day of gardening. And then stage the accidental drowning scenario. Put Caylee in the pool and then scream for help. And the neighbor, that she knew was home next door, would run over. I had been stuck with what a shovel is used for - digging. I have changed my mind and now don't believe she was ever thinking about burying Caylee in the back yard. I always had trouble trying to figure out if she was that dumb. They had dogs. No, she's not dumb, she's devious and conniving. This, like everything else was planned. This scenario is scary. What to do thoughts, her internal conversation, running through her mind all the while, on the outside, she is calm and poised. Just the way she looked on the BB Store Video.

: The ladder was left out by accident

Intermezzo
02-26-2011, 01:33 PM
Maybe ICA was going to use the neighbor as a witness. Go over and borrow the shovel looking like everything was just "fine and dandy" and just a normal day of gardening. And then stage the accidental drowning scenario. Put Caylee in the pool and then scream for help. And the neighbor, that she knew was home next door, would run over. I had been stuck with what a shovel is used for - digging. I have changed my mind and now don't believe she was ever thinking about burying Caylee in the back yard. I always had trouble trying to figure out if she was that dumb. They had dogs. No, she's not dumb, she's devious and conniving. This, like everything else was planned. This scenario is scary. What to do thoughts, her internal conversation, running through her mind all the while, on the outside, she is calm and poised. Just the way she looked on the BB Store Video.

: The ladder was left out by accident


It is a good and plausible theory.

I agree she is devious and conniving..
IMO..Casey was up to something on the afternoon of June 17th
Casey had intention of using the shovel for something and IMO it was not gardening
IIRC Jesse G mentioned that Casey may have been thinking of burying Caylee beneath her playhouse..

And your right about the dogs...but perhaps Casey did not think about them and their sense of smell (their dogs may be more indoor dogs and she didn't think of their natural instincts)....
From my own experience (we have a sporting/hunting dog) his sense of smell is amazing and the holes he digs in my backyard..I keep blaming those darn Armadillo's but its the dog..We love him.

-------------------------

sorry for rambling LOL

LolaMoon08
02-26-2011, 02:00 PM
The whole thing about Casey using the shovel to get the ladder out of the pool makes no sense? Their pool was an above ground pool. Circular. I have been looking at images of these types of pools and I don't see how these ladders could "accidentally" fall into the pool? Someone would have had to throw the ladder in there?

So I guess I would have to ask... why would Casey throw the ladder in the pool?

okiedokietoo
02-26-2011, 02:14 PM
It is a good and plausible theory.

I agree she is devious and conniving..
IMO..Casey was up to something on the afternoon of June 17th
Casey had intention of using the shovel for something and IMO it was not gardening
IIRC Jesse G mentioned that Casey may have been thinking of burying Caylee beneath her playhouse..
And your right about the dogs...but perhaps Casey did not think about them (and their sense of smell) at the time

You are so cool. Looking above and seeing your posts with my quotes made me realize my theories are somewhat consistent lol
But I guess my epiphany today was that she was going to intentionally use the neighbor as a positive character witness for herself. Didn't the neighbor say in his deposition that she appeared fine etc? Maybe she was going to say Caylee drowned when she was returning the shovel?
I know I'm rambling. I just don't think she ever did anything that she didn't plan ahead of time, including this. She had to have thought about the implications to LE investigating the accidental drowning if she borrowed the shovel. Maybe she had thought about burying Caylee when she pulled into the garage but realized "opps" the neighbor next door saw me. So she already had bury, dig and shovel thoughts running around in her head. That turned into "I'll borrow the shovel to garden from the neighbor and he can tell the police that I was happy and everything seemed fine and then I'll stage the accidental drowning". IMO she's a good little actress and acted all the time. But she could make herself believe the lies about herself - going to college, working from home etc because she's a narcissist. She just couldn't pull off the accidental drowning because she couldn't act like she was an upset distraught caring mother.
This plan didn't work, so on to another plan, another day, off to Tony's, la dee da and she just forgot about the ladder.

Intermezzo
02-26-2011, 02:26 PM
The whole thing about Casey using the shovel to get the ladder out of the pool makes no sense? Their pool was an above ground pool. Circular. I have been looking at images of these types of pools and I don't see how these ladders could "accidentally" fall into the pool? Someone would have had to throw the ladder in there?

So I guess I would have to ask... why would Casey throw the ladder in the pool?

bbm
Your right, it doesn't make sense...iirc, they have an A frame pool ladder and it would not just accidentally fall into their above ground pool.