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raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 03:17 PM
Are both cars still in Brad's possession? If they are, I assume they were both processed and there was no evidence discovered. The same with the house. Either he was very careful or the house was not the scene, right? I guess they can't seal the house or seize the cars without evidence or strong probably cause but if LE thinks the crime may have occurred there they must be anxious with him still there.

The cars are in Brads possession, Brad is at the house. The house and cars were processed under the 16 July warrant, not sure exactly how long LE was on scene but have heard from 3am until 7 or 8 pm. There would be no reason to keep the house free of occupants once the warrant was executed whether LE found anything or not. Some of the videos from the various media outlets depict CCBI officers removing items collected from the house and at least the SUV being processed on scene. Again, once the vehicle is processed, evidence found or not, there is no reason for LE to keep it away from the owner. There was also a videographer on the scene to document the condition of the house at that time.

In this instance LE was also inside that house on the Saturday Nancy went missing - Brad allowed it. No telling what LE saw at that time but it is reasonable that they obtained a warrant to do detailed searching of the residence. If LE is comfortable that all items of interest were removed from the residence there should be no concern with Brad being in the house. If LE considers it a crime scene - they have documented it, no need to quarrantine it - same with the cars. Can't drag either of those into a courtroom.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Wow, Mom. You finally let one slip, didn't you? So you say that someone at your home talked to Brad by phone on the 14th. Hmmmm...We WILL be sleuthing on that comment. And since i live so nearby. Hmmm...you have a girl that is going back to college. Did one of your children babysit for the Coopers? nah. That's not exciting enough.

Listen, go have a few glasses of wine and come back. :drink: We need to talk. :talker:

Did you already have wine before you posted this?:rolling:
No, I didn't say by phone he was spoken to. No one from my home has spoken to BC on the phone. But yes, there was a short conversation that took place on the 14th with BC.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 03:25 PM
NCNative..I changed my wording to my post. I see where someone could have thought I meant different than what I actually meant. I assure you no one spoke to BC via phone from my home.

lunarmodule
08-16-2008, 03:27 PM
The cars are in Brads possession, Brad is at the house. The house and cars were processed under the 16 July warrant, not sure exactly how long LE was on scene but have heard from 3am until 7 or 8 pm. There would be no reason to keep the house free of occupants once the warrant was executed whether LE found anything or not. Some of the videos from the various media outlets depict CCBI officers removing items collected from the house and at least the SUV being processed on scene. Again, once the vehicle is processed, evidence found or not, there is no reason for LE to keep it away from the owner. There was also a videographer on the scene to document the condition of the house at that time.

In this instance LE was also inside that house on the Saturday Nancy went missing - Brad allowed it. No telling what LE saw at that time but it is reasonable that they obtained a warrant to do detailed searching of the residence. If LE is comfortable that all items of interest were removed from the residence there should be no concern with Brad being in the house. If LE considers it a crime scene - they have documented it, no need to quarrantine it - same with the cars. Can't drag either of those into a courtroom.

Thanks, RC. I guess it seems to me that if they found substantial evidence they would have held the cars or house longer. Wasn't their evidence found by Michelle Young's family in the home after police had processed it? I agree and see what you're saying, it just creeps me out that if the house was the scene then BC is wallowing in it every day.

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 03:39 PM
Thanks, RC. I guess it seems to me that if they found substantial evidence they would have held the cars or house longer. Wasn't their evidence found by Michelle Young's family in the home after police had processed it? I agree and see what you're saying, it just creeps me out that if the house was the scene then BC is wallowing in it every day.

I understand the creepy ! :)

Michelle Young's house was held for 13 days because it took CCBI that long to process it - very bloody scene from Sheriff Harrison's description. A lot of fingerprints in that home to collect as well since they entertained a lot. Also CCBI spent some time waiting on some sort of special machine (still unidentified as to what that was) to be brought in for use. No idea of how long the wait time was or how long it took to process the scene with that equipment. In that case - one car was processed at the scene and if I recall correctly one was held for a couple of days - Jason Young's SUV was seized on the 4th of November and was held at an impound lot until his lawyer asked for it back - sometime in January of 04.

There does not seem to be a rhyme or reason for how long vehicles are held, if they are held at all and or how long it takes to process a scene. Just guess it varies with complexity. Yes, Jason's sister Kim Young found a portion of one of Michelle's teeth after the scene was processed.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 03:40 PM
Thanks, RC. I guess it seems to me that if they found substantial evidence they would have held the cars or house longer. Wasn't their evidence found by Michelle Young's family in the home after police had processed it? I agree and see what you're saying, it just creeps me out that if the house was the scene then BC is wallowing in it every day.

If the house was the scene then it serves BC right to have to look at it each and every day. :banghead:
Now that he has the home sealed up with not a crack of light coming in I hope he hears voices.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 03:47 PM
Are both cars still in Brad's possession? If they are, I assume they were both processed and there was no evidence discovered. The same with the house. Either he was very careful or the house was not the scene, right? I guess they can't seal the house or seize the cars without evidence or strong probably cause but if LE thinks the crime may have occurred there they must be anxious with him still there.

After finding what 'appeared to be blood' on the left rear door and rear seat, the cops impounded jason Young's SUV for nearly 3 months before finally releasing it to him.

I would imagine if the cops found any blood in either car, the car would have been towed off and processed at the SBI or CCBI.

As for finding blood in the home....after the CCBI processes the scene, they release it. Having said that, I seriously doubt they found blood evidence in the home or car

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 03:51 PM
If the house was the scene then it serves BC right to have to look at it each and every day. :banghead:
Now that he has the home sealed up with not a crack of light coming in I hope he hears voices.

How about Michael Peterson ? Heck he moved back in the house awaiting trial while Kathleen's blood was smeared all over the staircase.:eek:

lunarmodule
08-16-2008, 03:54 PM
How about Michael Peterson ? Heck he moved back in the house awaiting trial while Kathleen's blood was smeared all over the staircase.:eek:

Good point. And that was gruesome. I was obsessed with that case.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 04:00 PM
How about Michael Peterson ? Heck he moved back in the house awaiting trial while Kathleen's blood was smeared all over the staircase.:eek:


You know it doesn't phase these types of people because still in their mind they did no wrong. They just go around thinking the spouse deserved it and if the spouse hadn't done A B or C to provoke them it wouldn't have occured. They blame everything on the other person and fault them.

BC is probably still angered with NC when he looks around the house, even the location of the crime, because of the last month and what he has endured. It's all her fault.

It was all her fault wasn't it? His affidavit shows she was all at fault for making his life miserable.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 04:05 PM
You know it doesn't phase these types of people because still in their mind they did no wrong. They just go around thinking the spouse deserved it and if the spouse hadn't done A B or C to provoke them it wouldn't have occured. They blame everything on the other person and fault them.

BC is probably still angered with NC when he looks around the house, even the location of the crime, because of the last month and what he has endured. It's all her fault.

It was all her fault wasn't it? His affidavit shows she was all at fault for making his life miserable.

Brad Cooper is a :loser:

CARYISHOME
08-16-2008, 04:07 PM
Good point. And that was gruesome. I was obsessed with that case.

Yep, just boarded it up and went right on living in the house. I, too, was obsessed with that case. Remember when the jurors took a trip to the house to view the staircase and their reactions? Not good - and that was David Rudolf's (defense attorney) idea.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 04:14 PM
Yep, just boarded it up and went right on living in the house. I, too, was obsessed with that case. Remember when the jurors took a trip to the house to view the staircase and their reactions? Not good - and that was David Rudolf's (defense attorney) idea.
OH, so he didn't see daylight either? This must be a trait of wife murderers.:whistle:

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 04:17 PM
Brad Cooper is a :loser:
Not many on here can deny that statement.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 04:22 PM
Not many on here can deny that statement.

Innocent until proven guilty of murder.
However, by most accounts, he was an egotistical, narcissistic AH.

Kinda sounds how pretty boy John Edwards described himself :dance:

SleuthSayer
08-16-2008, 05:03 PM
Just curious about how you know this. I may have missed something.

Because, while I don't know exactly what bonus he would have received last year (he wouldn't have received the bulk of this year's bonus yet, but soon), I do know the range of bonus for someone in his position and the number specified here was absurdly out of range.

Beyond that, the claim here was that he was awarded that bonus for "landing the Amex account". There are two problems with that claim. The first is that Brad's job does not involve "landing" any accounts or any involvement with external customers, for that matter. The second is that Amex has been a Cisco customer for many years, more years than Brad has been working at Cisco. Amex operates Cisco's global travel network. Both companies are key customers/partners of each other.

FlowerChild
08-16-2008, 05:30 PM
I agree with you on this. I really do believe he used the sedan trunk for her body. I just don't have an ounce of me that believes he used the SUV for it.

That must be a good sized trunk to easily fit a 5-9" woman's body in there without leaving some evidence behind - snagging some hair, fluids, DNA in strange places etc. And I don't see WHAT BC would have had on hand (like a suitcase or duffle) that would hold a tall woman's body in one piece? I know he could have used plastic, etc - but that does not always work - hair, fibers etc always seem to remain in most cases. And once she got into rigor, it would have been even harder to move her body. Plus the body would have shown what position she was in at or shortly after death - curled up, on her side, back, etc.

BC would have had to fold Nancy up to get her into the trunk and then unfold her to get her out - from an awkward height. I can see a possible body dump by one man with an SUV, much less so with a BMW sedan trunk.

My Opinion

ncnative
08-16-2008, 05:50 PM
I have a BMW sedan. The trunk would hold a body. It's a larger one than Brad has, though. Brad has the 3 series. I don't know the size of those trunks.

No BMW chastising, please. We are old folks. We celebrated our 35 anniversary, raising the kids and their getting through college, by getting our old selves a BMW. We plan on driving it til we die, which isn't all that long, ha.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 05:55 PM
I have a BMW sedan. The trunk would hold a body. It's a larger one than Brad has, though. Brad has the 3 series. I don't know the size of those trunks.

No BMW chastising, please. We are old folks. We celebrated our 35 anniversary, raising the kids and their getting through college, by getting our old selves a BMW. We plan on driving it til we die, which isn't all that long, ha.

I had a BMW once.....yes very nice when new.
Swore I would never own another unless it was always under warranty (repairs are XXX higher)
IMO, go with Acura, Infiniti or Lexus if you want a nice car that will last.

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 06:07 PM
I had a BMW once.....yes very nice when new.
Swore I would never own another unless it was always under warranty (repairs are XXX higher)
IMO, go with Acura, Infiniti or Lexus if you want a nice car that will last.

Love, love, love Infiniti's. The insurance isn't as totally insane on an Infiniti as it is on a beemer. BMW's are one of the highest rated vehicles for insurance.

jilly
08-16-2008, 06:24 PM
If LE considers it a crime scene - they have documented it, no need to quarrantine it - same with the cars. Can't drag either of those into a courtroom.

RC, I think if they had found anything incriminating in those cars, they would have impounded the vehicle(s).

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 06:38 PM
RC, I think if they had found anything incriminating in those cars, they would have impounded the vehicle(s).

I agree. The cops likely did not find blood evidence in their BMWs.
Hair, fiber or prints would be expected since they shared the cars.

We know the 325 has been parked in the drive.
That is likely cause the X5 is in the garage.
You know Brad would prefer to slip in the garage anonymously

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 06:45 PM
IMO, go with Acura, Infiniti or Lexus if you want a nice car that will last.

I SWEAR I was thought I was going to read "....if you want a nice car that will will easily hold a body!" :laugh:

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 06:45 PM
RC, I think if they had found anything incriminating in those cars, they would have impounded the vehicle(s).

Jilly

I have thought about that and quite honestly I was surprised they did not haul both of them in to do more extensive testing just to verify. I would tend to agree it is very likely they did not find evidence of blood or bodily fluids in the cars but without luminol type testing I'm not sure how they could visually determine that. Unless portable units such as lasers have improved drastically I don't see anyway they could reasonably conclude an absence of bodily fluids. And if such units have been improved, it is equally possible there was no need to haul the vehicles in and sampling was conducted on scene. Not sure I am ready to believe there was no evidence of forensic value found just yet.

With that in mind, it also tells me they conducted the search of the vehicles with COD firmly in their minds. COD could have ruled out such things as blood and possibly other fluids if you think about it.

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 06:47 PM
In the descriptions some of you have given of all those lights on in BC's home...I think he must be 'afraid' of the shadows and darkness therein. I don't think all the lights are on for security purposes. It was said that Scott Peterson had been visited by Laci after her death (he told someone this) and, if you believe such things, I imagine NC would be hanging around that house to watch over things....

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 06:50 PM
Jilly

I have thought about that and quite honestly I was surprised they did not haul both of them in to do more extensive testing just to verify. I would tend to agree it is very likely they did not find evidence of blood or bodily fluids in the cars but without luminol type testing I'm not sure how they could visually determine that.


RC, your took the words right out of my mouth...or rather the thoughts right out of my head. I could NOT understand why they hadn't impounded both vehicles and taken them somewhere they could do a proctology-level exam of every nook & cranny of each of those vehicles. I feel *some* evidence, no matter how miniscule, was left in the trunk of the car that was used to transport her body. It's just a feeling of intuition I have. I worry that they may have missed that miniscule something by not impounding his car(s). :frown:

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 06:51 PM
The cops would need probable cause and a SW to search and impound a vehicle.
From the media video, the cops inspected the BMW X-5 from the outside.
W/O some sort of evidence a crime was committed using one of the cars, the cops
could not get a SW to search the interior.

If Major Johnson had not seen what looked to be blood, the WCSO could not have impounded Jason Young's SUV.

Though Brad was cooperative, he obviously did not allow the cops access to the interior of his cars w/o a SW.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 06:56 PM
That must be a good sized trunk to easily fit a 5-9" woman's body in there without leaving some evidence behind - snagging some hair, fluids, DNA in strange places etc. And I don't see WHAT BC would have had on hand (like a suitcase or duffle) that would hold a tall woman's body in one piece? I know he could have used plastic, etc - but that does not always work - hair, fibers etc always seem to remain in most cases. And once she got into rigor, it would have been even harder to move her body. Plus the body would have shown what position she was in at or shortly after death - curled up, on her side, back, etc.

BC would have had to fold Nancy up to get her into the trunk and then unfold her to get her out - from an awkward height. I can see a possible body dump by one man with an SUV, much less so with a BMW sedan trunk.

My Opinion

No matter what vehicle was used it would have the same evidence behind being it a 325 or SUV, and as you say, hair, fluids, DNA. He could have wrapped her in a sheet, plastic or nothing and got her into the sedan or SUV, but you are stating suitcase or duffle bag. I haven't heard anything about this.

He certainly could place her in the sedan trunk. I had one and my husband is 6'2" and got in it to fix something.

Specs on this 2001 325 is 68.5" width. Taking into consideration the interior dimensions reducing this width, it still will certainly hold someone 5'9" @120 pounds. The inside of this trunk extends up behind the back seats. I have a photo of the interior of a 325 trunk to show it is big enough for someone NC size.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/LuvClaysVoice2003/325BMW2001.jpg

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 06:57 PM
Oh I didn't know that. Hmmmm... That's too bad; I can't help but think there is/was some tiny little forensic morsel awaiting discovery in his car. No matter how careful he was during a body transport, something could easily have been left there from contact.

jilly
08-16-2008, 06:58 PM
That must be a good sized trunk to easily fit a 5-9" woman's body in there without leaving some evidence behind - snagging some hair, fluids, DNA in strange places etc. And I don't see WHAT BC would have had on hand (like a suitcase or duffle) that would hold a tall woman's body in one piece? I know he could have used plastic, etc - but that does not always work - hair, fibers etc always seem to remain in most cases. And once she got into rigor, it would have been even harder to move her body. Plus the body would have shown what position she was in at or shortly after death - curled up, on her side, back, etc.

BC would have had to fold Nancy up to get her into the trunk and then unfold her to get her out - from an awkward height. I can see a possible body dump by one man with an SUV, much less so with a BMW sedan trunk.

My Opinion

Seems to me we had a discussion about this on the Michelle Young case. I was surprised to learn that rigor doesn't start until a few hours past death (can't remember) and doesn't reach full rigor for about 12 hrs.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 07:00 PM
Seems to me we had a discussion about this on the Michelle Young case. I was surprised to learn that rigor doesn't start until a few hours past death (can't remember) and doesn't reach full rigor for about 12 hrs.

Assume he killed her at 1 am.....ditched her body at 4 am (HT rumor)
Rigor is not an issue.

lunarmodule
08-16-2008, 07:00 PM
Jilly
.

With that in mind, it also tells me they conducted the search of the vehicles with COD firmly in their minds. COD could have ruled out such things as blood and possibly other fluids if you think about it.

This is sort of what I'm thinking...that COD was perhaps strangulation..not blunt force trauma, stabbing or something that would leave lots of potential evidence, even if cleaned thoroughly. They would turn that house upside down if that was the case.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 07:03 PM
This is sort of what I'm thinking...that COD was perhaps strangulation..not blunt force trauma, stabbing or something that would leave lots of potential evidence, even if cleaned thoroughly. They would turn that house upside down if that was the case.

They had a SW for the house.
You can bet it was turned upside down.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 07:04 PM
FAX, we wouldn't have gotten the BMW if we couldn't afford the upkeep. We have an extended warranty. We bought the BMW and paid for it up front. I have trouble getting into/out of cars, but this one is perfect for me and my physical ailment. That was part of the decision too. Our other car, which is much bigger, is very hard for me to get out of. My wheelchair fits nicely into the trunk of the BMW.

I'm sure lots of the younger folk get BMWs as status symbols. At our age, we don't even care about status symbols. Don't need them. Now, Brad and Nancy obviously did. Nancy was quoted as saying she didn't want a minivan because it "...isn't our lifestyle...". Lifestyle? I think she meant a minivan isn't statusy enough for her? Although, I had a minivan when the kids were young. I did not like it.

lunarmodule
08-16-2008, 07:06 PM
They had a SW for the house.
You can bet it was turned upside down.

How long was CCBI in the house?

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 07:06 PM
The cops would need probable cause and a SW to search and impound a vehicle.
From the media video, the cops inspected the BMW X-5 from the outside.
W/O some sort of evidence a crime was committed using one of the cars, the cops
could not get a SW to search the interior.

If Major Johnson had not seen what looked to be blood, the WCSO could not have impounded Jason Young's SUV.

Though Brad was cooperative, he obviously did not allow the cops access to the interior of his cars w/o a SW.

You might want to look again - 0.52 into this video it is obvious that LE is inside the X5 and searching it.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/3219919/

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 07:07 PM
FAX, we wouldn't have gotten the BMW if we couldn't afford the upkeep. We have an extended warranty. We bought the BMW and paid for it up front. I have trouble getting into/out of cars, but this one is perfect for me and my physical ailment. That was part of the decision too. Our other car, which is much bigger, is very hard for me to get out of. My wheelchair fits nicely into the trunk of the BMW.

I'm sure lots of the younger folk get BMWs as status symbols. At our age, we don't even care about status symbols. Don't need them. Now, Brad and Nancy obviously did. Nancy was quoted as saying she didn't want a minivan because it "...isn't our lifestyle...". Lifestyle? I think she meant a minivan isn't statusy enough for her? Although, I had a minivan when the kids were young. I did not like it.

Please don't take my post about BMW's personally.
They are great cars, just prefer the luxury Jap brands better.

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 07:09 PM
This is sort of what I'm thinking...that COD was perhaps strangulation..not blunt force trauma, stabbing or something that would leave lots of potential evidence, even if cleaned thoroughly. They would turn that house upside down if that was the case.

Not sure I would rule out blunt force trauma - any number of weapons can be used while drawing very little blood. Suffocation, strangulation definitely more possible however.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 07:12 PM
You might want to look again - 0.52 into this video it is obvious that LE is inside the X5 and searching it.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/3219919/

Yes there are several still photo's of them in the SUV searching.

Also, if the 325 was in the garage we have no idea what they did with or to that vehicle. The long package coming out of the house could have been the trunk lining.

I understand with a SW they can tear the carpet up, spray the walls and do what they want to get the evidence they need. They might have just taken the mat from the vehicle. It was a package about 6 feet long, not too heavy.

I am beginning to think they took that out in the bag.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 07:12 PM
You might want to look again - 0.52 into this video it is obvious that LE is inside the X5 and searching it.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/3219919/

Thanks RC, I missed that clip.

Since it was parked on the premises, sounds like the search of the X-5 was done under the house SW.


"The police had the authority to search the car under O'Brien. In O'Brien, the supreme court held that a warrant to search the premises of a rural duplex allowed the police to search a car parked 200 feet from the duplex, near an outbuilding on the property. Id. at 315-16. The court applied the "physical proximity" test, concluding that the search was authorized by the warrant because the car was close enough to the residence to have been a plausible repository for the objects named in the search warrant"

ncnative
08-16-2008, 07:13 PM
BTW, there are photos of the LE inspecting the X5 with all the doors open. Sorry I can't pull them up, but they are out there. I think they are on the Fox network's photos.

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 07:14 PM
Thanks RC, I missed that clip.

Since it was parked on the premises, sounds like the search of the X-5 was done under the house SW.


"The police had the authority to search the car under O'Brien. In O'Brien, the supreme court held that a warrant to search the premises of a rural duplex allowed the police to search a car parked 200 feet from the duplex, near an outbuilding on the property. Id. at 315-16. The court applied the "physical proximity" test, concluding that the search was authorized by the warrant because the car was close enough to the residence to have been a plausible repository for the objects named in the search warrant"

uh huh - and the BMW in the garage was not immune either.

Still don't know why they didn't haul them in though.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 07:16 PM
I thought about what was inside the big paper bags too, Mom. I thought maybe a wet mop, carpet, bedding, clothing, shoes, something used to kill someone, and lots of other things. Maybe even the vacuum bag.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 07:17 PM
Assume he killed her at 1 am.....ditched her body at 4 am (HT rumor)
Rigor is not an issue.


Temperature is also one thing that determines the time it takes for rigor.

I agree 1 until 4 is not an issue.

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 07:18 PM
Assume he killed her at 1 am.....ditched her body at 4 am (HT rumor)
Rigor is not an issue.


Seems to me we had a discussion about this on the Michelle Young case. I was surprised to learn that rigor doesn't start until a few hours past death (can't remember) and doesn't reach full rigor for about 12 hrs.

According to this website http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_index.htm Rigor Mortis starts as early as 30 minutes after death.

Here's exactly what they have to say...

Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis and occurs as the muscles in the body begin to stiffen from a lack of blood and oxygen. Rigor mortis first becomes apparent in the eyelids and jaws of the victim and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours, before receding again after another 6 to 12 hours. Occasionally, stiffening of the body may not even occur if the surrounding temperatures are very low, while the process occurs a lot quicker in muscles that were quite active before death. Like body temperature, the evidence provided by the level of muscle stiffening becomes of little use after a long period since death.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 07:21 PM
I thought about what was inside the big paper bags too, Mom. I thought maybe a wet mop, carpet, bedding, clothing, shoes, something used to kill someone, and lots of other things. Maybe even the vacuum bag.


The bag appeared to be long..looking at the guy carrying it out. Both ends are boxed or capped. Truely I think they could have rolled the trunk mat in plastic, and placed it in an open top box.

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 07:22 PM
RC, your took the words right out of my mouth...or rather the thoughts right out of my head. I could NOT understand why they hadn't impounded both vehicles and taken them somewhere they could do a proctology-level exam of every nook & cranny of each of those vehicles. I feel *some* evidence, no matter how miniscule, was left in the trunk of the car that was used to transport her body. It's just a feeling of intuition I have. I worry that they may have missed that miniscule something by not impounding his car(s). :frown:

SG I really think that there would have had to have been something significantly large for them to be suspicious since it was Nancy's car. For instance say they got a blacklight hit the size of a small drop on the dash for example - it may mean nothing. Say they got a hit and it was the size of a baseball in the rear portion of the X5 - it could indeed be significant.

All I can thnk is any presumptive tests that may have been done all yielded negative results. I am indeed puzzled by it however.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 07:23 PM
According to this website http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_index.htm Rigor Mortis starts as early as 30 minutes after death.

Here's exactly what they have to say...

Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis and occurs as the muscles in the body begin to stiffen from a lack of blood and oxygen. Rigor mortis first becomes apparent in the eyelids and jaws of the victim and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours, before receding again after another 6 to 12 hours. Occasionally, stiffening of the body may not even occur if the surrounding temperatures are very low, while the process occurs a lot quicker in muscles that were quite active before death. Like body temperature, the evidence provided by the level of muscle stiffening becomes of little use after a long period since death.

It sounds like he transported the body at either 4 am or 6am.
Either time, rigor would not be so severe that her body would be 'stiff '

ncnative
08-16-2008, 07:25 PM
As to rigor mortis, if it goes away after so many hours, then I have a question. It's probably a bit weird for some of you. When my dad was in his casket at his funeral, I had to remove something that we had put into his hand, before they buried him. I should have asked the funeral director, because it freaked me out. Dad's hand was like stone. I could barely pry the thing out of his hand that he was holding. I wish I hadn't done that. What caused that stone-like stiffness, if RM leaves the body? This was about 3 days after he'd died and he was enbalmed.

lunarmodule
08-16-2008, 07:26 PM
Not sure I would rule out blunt force trauma - any number of weapons can be used while drawing very little blood. Suffocation, strangulation definitely more possible however.

Yes, as I recall the Cary Police called it a homicide fairly quickly...to me there would have to be clear evidence that didn't require the ME...ligatures marks, etc. Or a weapon at the site. I just think if it was a messy murder in that house, that the cars and house would have been off limits to BC for much longer than they were. And with suffocation or strangulation, there's practically an unlimited potential array of weapons, including bare hands. Sorry to be so graphic about it.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 07:26 PM
As to rigor mortis, if it goes away after so many hours, then I have a question. It's probably a bit weird for some of you. When my dad was in his casket at his funeral, I had to remove something that we had put into his hand, before they buried him. I should have asked the funeral director, because it freaked me out. Dad's hand was like stone. I could barely pry the thing out of his hand that he was holding. I wish I hadn't done that. What caused that stone-like stiffness, if RM leaves the body? This was about 3 days after he'd died and he was enbalmed.

Embalming 'sets' the tissues ncnative.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 07:30 PM
:waitasec: OK, Fax. I didn't know that about enbalming. Ugh.

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 07:33 PM
As to rigor mortis, if it goes away after so many hours, then I have a question. It's probably a bit weird for some of you. When my dad was in his casket at his funeral, I had to remove something that we had put into his hand, before they buried him. I should have asked the funeral director, because it freaked me out. Dad's hand was like stone. I could barely pry the thing out of his hand that he was holding. I wish I hadn't done that. What caused that stone-like stiffness, if RM leaves the body? This was about 3 days after he'd died and he was enbalmed.
Oh, honey I'm sorry about your Dad. I've lost both of my parents and those experiences are terrible. :(

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 07:33 PM
Yes, as I recall the Cary Police called it a homicide fairly quickly...to me there would have to be clear evidence that didn't require the ME...ligatures marks, etc. Or a weapon at the site. I just think if it was a messy murder in that house, that the cars and house would have been off limits to BC for much longer than they were. And with suffocation or strangulation, there's practically an unlimited potential array of weapons, including bare hands. Sorry to be so graphic about it.

I agree but fists can also be weapons and draw little blood. Whatever the cause of death - it was fairly obvious I agree.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 07:35 PM
Entre, thanks. It was a relief for Dad to pass on. His body had lived long enough and caused him much pain. Very sad, though, yes.

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 07:38 PM
What caused that stone-like stiffness, if RM leaves the body? This was about 3 days after he'd died and he was enbalmed.

I think the embalming process is the reason for that. Those chemicals are preserving things from the inside out. It would not have been rigor at that point.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 07:49 PM
Did anyone get the opportunity to watch "the body farm?" It was on a few years ago and absolutely amazing to see how the studies were done. It is a program thru UT. The show actually showed the process in all possible scenario's of death and really was an eye opener.

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 07:52 PM
Did anyone get the opportunity to watch "the body farm?" It was on a few years ago and absolutely amazing to see how the studies were done. It is a program thru UT. The show actually showed the process in all possible scenario's of death and really was an eye opener.

I did see it and have friends who've studied there. A fascinating place to be sure.

jilly
08-16-2008, 07:52 PM
Thanks RC, I missed that clip.

Since it was parked on the premises, sounds like the search of the X-5 was done under the house SW.


"The police had the authority to search the car under O'Brien. In O'Brien, the supreme court held that a warrant to search the premises of a rural duplex allowed the police to search a car parked 200 feet from the duplex, near an outbuilding on the property. Id. at 315-16. The court applied the "physical proximity" test, concluding that the search was authorized by the warrant because the car was close enough to the residence to have been a plausible repository for the objects named in the search warrant"

Geez you and RC are good! :clap:I'm just kickin back to watch!:popcorn::eat: Gotta be on your toes around here!:)

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 07:54 PM
Did anyone get the opportunity to watch "the body farm?" It was on a few years ago and absolutely amazing to see how the studies were done. It is a program thru UT. The show actually showed the process in all possible scenario's of death and really was an eye opener.

Here it is...I know it's odd, but I would love to pay a visit.


http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/player/science/health-human-body-sci/human-body/body-farm-sci.html

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 07:58 PM
Here it is...I know it's odd, but I would love to pay a visit.


http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/player/science/health-human-body-sci/human-body/body-farm-sci.html

Thank You so much for finding that! I wish they would run the film again since it has been awhile.

I wonder if there is any way we can visit? We could get together and go since we all have a common interest with this.

Bob&Bob
08-16-2008, 08:01 PM
Geez you and RC are good! :clap:I'm just kickin back to watch!:popcorn::eat: Gotta be on your toes around here!:)

You certainly do!

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 08:03 PM
Geez you and RC are good! :clap:I'm just kickin back to watch!:popcorn::eat: Gotta be on your toes around here!:)

Jilly you know I suffer AR with some of this stuff. I take the flak for discussing what others consider minor details (although with murders I don't think any detail is minor) - if I have watched those videos and pressers once - I guarantee you I have watched them 20 times since. There are indeed several facts available to us if we actually watch closely.

I do have another life by the way - before you ask :D:D:D

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 08:06 PM
Thank You so much for finding that! I wish they would run the film again since it has been awhile.

I wonder if there is any way we can visit? We could get together and go since we all have a common interest with this.

Check this film clip out....Dr Bass himself


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSDCiOW81mk

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 08:16 PM
Please don't take my post about BMW's personally.
They are great cars, just prefer the luxury Jap brands better.

Wow, how about not using a racist term please?

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 08:22 PM
Wow, how about not using a racist term please?

Geeze, that post was not necessary.

The use of "Jap" is not racist....at least I did not mean it that way :rolleyes:

Bob&Bob
08-16-2008, 08:24 PM
Glad I didn't say that

jilly
08-16-2008, 08:26 PM
According to this website http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_index.htm Rigor Mortis starts as early as 30 minutes after death.

Here's exactly what they have to say...

Stiffening of the corpse occurs between just 30 minutes and 3 hours after death. The process is called rigor mortis and occurs as the muscles in the body begin to stiffen from a lack of blood and oxygen. Rigor mortis first becomes apparent in the eyelids and jaws of the victim and spreads throughout the whole body in approximately 6 to 12 hours, before receding again after another 6 to 12 hours. Occasionally, stiffening of the body may not even occur if the surrounding temperatures are very low, while the process occurs a lot quicker in muscles that were quite active before death. Like body temperature, the evidence provided by the level of muscle stiffening becomes of little use after a long period since death.

Thanks for this EN - Told ya I couldn't remember about the 3 hrs!:crazy: In any case it seems to start between 30 min & 3 hrs with the eye lids, jaw and it appears to be a sloooow process with a few variables. I think it's probably that Nancy was not that difficult to manipulate for the first few hours after death.
Thanks for looking that up!:)

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 08:26 PM
Check this film clip out....Dr Bass himself


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSDCiOW81mk

Thanks for the links. Very interesting to watch...I could sit all night and watch them.

Watching Dr. Bass it sounds like NC's hands would be in the stage of very wrinkled because of the # of days she was missing and found.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 08:27 PM
Glad I didn't say that

My Grandfather fought in WW11
Give me a break,:sheesh:

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 08:42 PM
My Grandfather fought in WW11
Give me a break,:sheesh:

The term as coined during WWII is considered derogatory. It's cool if that's not how you meant it, just know that it's certainly not considered a term of endearment and some people do naturally find it offensive.

I'm sure it was just a slip and if you say you meant nothing by it then I absolutely believe you.

Let's just move on to more of your great insight on this case.:)

jilly
08-16-2008, 09:02 PM
Jilly you know I suffer AR with some of this stuff. I take the flak for discussing what others consider minor details (although with murders I don't think any detail is minor) - if I have watched those videos and pressers once - I guarantee you I have watched them 20 times since. There are indeed several facts available to us if we actually watch closely.

I do have another life by the way - before you ask :D:D:D

LOL - I know! :DYou're right - no detail is minor. I think it's Great! I'm kinda hitching along for the ride - memory's not as good as it used to be and my computer skills for putting a file together....well non existent.
Besides, I'm still working on getting my big foot out of my mouth:footinmouth: from the other nite - so I'm very happy to just read along here!:)

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 09:03 PM
Wonder what Brad does with all this 'free' time ?
I can't imagine what it would be like to be alone on a Tuesday trapped inside my house.
Wonder if he gets out and about ?

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:07 PM
Wonder what Brad does with all this 'free' time ?
I can't imagine what it would be like to be alone on a Tuesday trapped inside my house.
Wonder if he gets out and about ?


Reading WebSleuths....what better thing to do then see how the general public feels about you.:loser:

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 09:11 PM
Reading WebSleuths....what better thing to do then see how the general public feels about you.:loser:

I can imagine he is reading our comments.

Brad, I bear arms.

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 09:14 PM
Wonder what Brad does with all this 'free' time ?
I can't imagine what it would be like to be alone on a Tuesday trapped inside my house.
Wonder if he gets out and about ?

I'd be peeping out the windows to see if the cops have pulled into my drive, at least every other Tuesday. :D

ncnative
08-16-2008, 09:18 PM
Brad is probably going to be charged, then he will kill himself so no one else can have him, meaning the penal system. His ego can't take being found guilty and sentenced. He'd do away with himself first.

Bob&Bob
08-16-2008, 09:18 PM
My Grandfather fought in WW11
Give me a break,:sheesh:

Army?

citygirl
08-16-2008, 09:19 PM
Reading WebSleuths....what better thing to do then see how the general public feels about you.:loser:

Perhaps these boys should wise up and read the boards while CONTEMPLATING their evil deeds. More powerful deterrent than the death penalty.:D

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 09:22 PM
I just can't imagine. How could a person live with themselves???

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:22 PM
I bet he didn't like our 'Red Flags' list:doh: Especially since he thought he had done such a good job of covering his :behind:

Star12
08-16-2008, 09:25 PM
My Grandfather fought in WW11
Give me a break,:sheesh:

My greatgrandfather was involved in that minor discomfort century before last. He was on both sides, at different times.

Brother against brother, father against son, uh...:confused:

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:27 PM
Brad is probably going to be charged, then he will kill himself so no one else can have him, meaning the penal system. His ego can't take being found guilty and sentenced. He'd do away with himself first.

I agree. If he has attempted it at a younger age and spoken of it recently this is the only way he will deal with it.

This is a mouse and not a man...he won't stand up and take the punishment for his crime.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 09:29 PM
Mom, you made a statement that Brad communicated with someone in your family on the 14th July, and whatever was said "...ended the call...", whatever that means. (It was kind of confusing). So, IF Brad or his buddy reads this, I'd be a wee bit scared if I were you, assuming Brad is the perp or someone he knows is. UNLESS you meant something like you were at the search site and happenend to communicate randomly by answering a cell phone or something or other. What DID you mean?

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:29 PM
Perhaps these boys should wise up and read the boards while CONTEMPLATING their evil deeds. More powerful deterrent than the death penalty.:D

As many on here have said...they think they are smarter than the LE and can beat the system.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 09:33 PM
As many on here have said...they think they are smarter than the LE and can beat the system.

Actually, they may think they are smarter, which shows how dumb they are.

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:34 PM
Mom, you made a statement that Brad communicated with someone in your family on the 14th July, and whatever was said "...ended the call...", whatever that means. (It was kind of confusing). So, IF Brad or his buddy reads this, I'd be a wee bit scared if I were you, assuming Brad is the perp or someone he knows is. UNLESS you meant something like you were at the search site and happenend to communicate randomly by answering a cell phone or something or other. What DID you mean?

Please locate where I said this, because if it was put like this I worded it incorrectly. I know you commented on this earlier and I thought I clarified it. There was no phone call by anyone in my home. BC and someone did have a converstion on Monday, but not by a phone call. It was in person.

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 09:39 PM
Army?

Yep, 82nd Airborne

Just the Fax
08-16-2008, 09:43 PM
Brad is probably going to be charged, then he will kill himself so no one else can have him, meaning the penal system. His ego can't take being found guilty and sentenced. He'd do away with himself first.

If reports are true that he contemplated suicide twice, I Agree.
Btw, does anyone think enough of him to call daily ?
Neighbors, the smell of death is unmistakable.:silenced:

Star12
08-16-2008, 09:46 PM
Please locate where I said this, because if it was put like this I worded it incorrectly. I know you commented on this earlier and I thought I clarified it. There was no phone call by anyone in my home. BC and someone did have a converstion on Monday, but not by a phone call. It was in person.


This thread, #482. I think on pg. 20?

Star12
08-16-2008, 09:47 PM
If reports are true that he contemplated suicide twice, I Agree.
Btw, does anyone think enough of him to call daily ?
Neighbors, the smell of death is unmistakable.:silenced:

Isn't his mother still staying there with him?

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:47 PM
Mom, you made a statement that Brad communicated with someone in your family on the 14th July, and whatever was said "...ended the call...", whatever that means. (It was kind of confusing). So, IF Brad or his buddy reads this, I'd be a wee bit scared if I were you, assuming Brad is the perp or someone he knows is. UNLESS you meant something like you were at the search site and happenend to communicate randomly by answering a cell phone or something or other. What DID you mean?

I found what I stated earlier to day...
BC was searching on Monday the 14th with long sleeves, a cap, and shorts. He did have a short conversation with someone from my home (I will not say me or who) and did ask a direct question. This was done at an outside location where BC was searching.

I had put 'in my home' originally as someone quoted me and I changed it to 'from my home'...with this being said it is someone who lives in my home including myself. But not anything about 'ended the call.'

ncnative
08-16-2008, 09:49 PM
Oh, sorry, you did clarify "someone" in your family did have a communication with Brad C. on the 14 July, but it was not by phone.

Well, that's just plain weird, unless you were part of a search effort or volunteer just before they found her, and he talked to "someone" in your family. I just think it is very strange that you just mentioned this fact today, after all this time. That "someone" in your family had communication with BC on July 14. It could be many reasons: your family member is his friend, or a LE officer, searcher, HT employee, etc. I guess you aren't going to give details. I would not have given any at all, if I thought BC was seeing these posts. :couch:

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:51 PM
If reports are true that he contemplated suicide twice, I Agree.
Btw, does anyone think enough of him to call daily ?
Neighbors, the smell of death is unmistakable.:silenced:

I guess if he subscribes to the N&O they will notice them gathering on the driveway. I know he subscribes to the Cary News.
What else does he have to do but read WS and read the news to see if he is once again headlines.:clap:

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 09:51 PM
I found what I stated earlier to day...
BC was searching on Monday the 14th with long sleeves, a cap, and shorts. He did have a short conversation with someone from my home (I will not say me or who) and did ask a direct question. This was done at an outside location where BC was searching.

I had put 'in my home' originally as someone quoted me and I changed it to 'from my home'...with this being said it is someone who lives in my home including myself. But not anything about 'ended the call.'

I asked you if you could divulge what was said.

You said that you could not but you would say that he asked a question and that question ended the conversation.

Neither you nor I ever said anything about a phone or a call.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 09:51 PM
:DOK. I just read your clarification a second time. Searching outside. OK. I'm going to go to bed. I'm getting confused and cranky.

EntreNous
08-16-2008, 09:52 PM
Nighters, ncnative!

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 09:53 PM
Oh, sorry, you did clarify "someone" in your family did have a communication with Brad C. on the 14 July, but it was not by phone.

Well, that's just plain weird, unless you were part of a search effort or volunteer just before they found her, and he talked to "someone" in your family. I just think it is very strange that you just mentioned this fact today, after all this time. That "someone" in your family had communication with BC on July 14. It could be many reasons: your family member is his friend, or a LE officer, searcher, HT employee, etc. I guess you aren't going to give details. I would not have given any at all, if I thought BC was seeing these posts. :couch:

I have mentioned this a few times. It was when the shovel was discovered. I have told about the bugs biting him and all. Today is not the 1st time I have spoken of it. My entire family searched on Monday with the exception of my husband. In the pouring rain and all. I still have the clay on my floor mats. It was during the search time before NC was found.

ncnative
08-16-2008, 09:59 PM
If reports are true that he contemplated suicide twice, I Agree.
Btw, does anyone think enough of him to call daily ?
Neighbors, the smell of death is unmistakable.:silenced:

Oooh, now there's a thought. Scary. Maybe he thought to cancel the newspapers.

Now, I really must go to bed. :)

ncnative
08-16-2008, 10:03 PM
I have mentioned this a few times. It was when the shovel was discovered. I have told about the bugs biting him and all. Today is not the 1st time I have spoken of it. My entire family searched on Monday with the exception of my husband. In the pouring rain and all. I still have the clay on my floor mats. It was during the search time before NC was found.

OK, Mom. I was confused thinking that some of your reports were just from reading the news, etc. NOW I get it. YOUR family was searching and all. I mentioned that as a possibility for an explanation. I'm all clear now. Beam me up.:doh:

Bob&Bob
08-16-2008, 10:04 PM
Yep, 82nd Airborne

What division?

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 10:07 PM
Maybe he thought to cancel the newspapers.

Now, I really must go to bed. :)

So he can't read about himself on a daily basis?:D

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 10:09 PM
OK, Mom. I was confused thinking that some of your reports were just from reading the news, etc. NOW I get it. YOUR family was searching and all. I mentioned that as a possibility for an explanation. I'm all clear now. Beam me up.:doh:

No reason to. I have not indulged in this conversation because it is bothersome to us.

DogWood
08-16-2008, 10:09 PM
Here we go. Click on listen.

http://www.kdkaradio.com/

Fairy1
08-16-2008, 10:47 PM
No reason to. I have not indulged in this conversation because it is bothersome to us.

Hi Mom! May I ask if you've divulged the conversation to LE? Was it THAT type of remark?

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 11:00 PM
Anyone posting on Caylee board - Tricia has a question on the sticky above - help her out please !

momto3kids
08-16-2008, 11:03 PM
Hi Mom! May I ask if you've divulged the conversation to LE? Was it THAT type of remark?

Hi....nothing to incriminate him. He talked, answered questions, introduced himself, but NO ONE knew who "Brad" was at the time. It was a particular comment and question and a look, then the bells went off this is the husband. He then confirmed he was.
Again, nothing to call the LE about or believe me I would have.

Fairy1
08-16-2008, 11:27 PM
Hi....nothing to incriminate him. He talked, answered questions, introduced himself, but NO ONE knew who "Brad" was at the time. It was a particular comment and question and a look, then the bells went off this is the husband. He then confirmed he was.
Again, nothing to call the LE about or believe me I would have.

Thank you. :blowkiss: Still, the long sleeves and long pants - along with his making a point about how he was being bitten and cut up - BIG RED FLAG. IMO, of course.

Skittles
08-16-2008, 11:38 PM
I have mentioned this a few times. It was when the shovel was discovered. I have told about the bugs biting him and all. Today is not the 1st time I have spoken of it. My entire family searched on Monday with the exception of my husband. In the pouring rain and all. I still have the clay on my floor mats. It was during the search time before NC was found.

mom, when Brad found the shovel, was that near the Tryon Rd. construction or the Kildaire Farm construction?

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 11:44 PM
I bet he didn't like our 'Red Flags' list:doh: Especially since he thought he had done such a good job of covering his :behind:

No kidding! If I were him I'd be seriously panicked because the one thing I have noticed is that a collection of VERY smart brains coming together, and focused on making sure the perp is caught and put away forever, is not something to trifle with. Plus, there is very little that you do in which there are no witnesses at all...very little indeed. Everything you touch leaves a trace; every move you make is potentially seen by someone...and people DO notice things. Lots of things...lots of little things. And what I've learned from seeing how several high profile cases have evolved, these guys usually get caught, and they ALWAYS think they're so much smarter than everyone else, think they can get away with just about anything, and think they've got people fooled.

And no, they don't. Not even for a second! :behindbar

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 11:47 PM
This is a mouse and not a man...he won't stand up and take the punishment for his crime. I agree he's not a real man...certainly not one who takes responsibility for himself and understands rights and boundaries.

That said, I don't think he'll actually kill himself. I think whatever threats he may have made in the past were for effect and used for manipulation. Because someone who is really serious about suicide...does it. Simple as that.

raisincharlie
08-16-2008, 11:49 PM
I agree he's not a real man...certainly not one who takes responsibility for himself and understands rights and boundaries.

That said, I don't think he'll actually kill himself. I think whatever threats he may have made in the past were for effect and used for manipulation. Because someone who is really serious about suicide...does it. Simple as that.

Absolutely. :clap:

SleuthyGal
08-16-2008, 11:58 PM
BTW, this is your daily IT'S A SMALL WORLD moment: I was at a party tonight and was with the person being referenced by JTF in this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2477927&postcount=319). I happen to be friends with this individual and recognized this person's username because I communicate with them occasionally via email.

And this individual is absolutely telling the truth. They *do* have a friend who is in the law enforcement field and that convo with that friend DID happen. Now I have no way of knowing if my contact's friend was embellishing the story in anyway or not. We were discussing this case and my contact mentioned their friend and I remembered reading their post and then I point-blank asked them if that was really true...and I was assured that the story is true--and that's what they were told, verbatim.

So for what it's worth, I thought I'd share it with y'all. I see this person socially a couple times a month...I had no idea they were posting on that WRAL message board until I happened to see it myself a few weeks ago.

SMALL WORLD, eh?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 12:07 AM
It is a small world indeed.


Gets even smalller when confined to 64 square feet.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:10 AM
Gets even smaller when confined to 64 square feet.

No wonder I like you RaisinC! You are so very, very droll! :D And all I can say to that is TOUCHE!

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 12:11 AM
BTW, this is your daily IT'S A SMALL WORLD moment: I was at a party tonight and was with the person being referenced by JTF in this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2477927&postcount=319). I happen to be friends with this individual and recognized this person's username because I communicate with them occasionally via email.

And this individual is absolutely telling the truth. They *do* have a friend who is in the law enforcement field and that convo with that friend DID happen. Now I have no way of knowing if my contact's friend was embellishing the story in anyway or not. We were discussing this case and my contact mentioned their friend and I remembered reading their post and then I point-blank asked them if that was really true...and I was assured that the story is true--and that's what they were told, verbatim.

So for what it's worth, I thought I'd share it with y'all. I see this person socially a couple times a month...I had no idea they were posting on that WRAL message board until I happened to see it myself a few weeks ago.

SMALL WORLD, eh?

I hope they're able to get who they know that did it and soon!:behindbar

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:13 AM
I hope they're able to get who they know that did it and soon!:behindbar

Me too! I think they WILL get them; I just don't know how 'soon' it will occur. All ducks in order first with no wiggle room takes time. Sometimes longer than we'd like. It's important it be done right, and thoroughly, and to the letter of the law!

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 12:18 AM
No wonder I like you RaisinC! You are so very, very droll! :D And all I can say to that is TOUCHE!

:blushing: :blushing: :blushing:


Glad someone catches that odd sense of humor. :)

Back at you !

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:24 AM
Something else I've noticed as I've occasionally discussed this case with others or listened as people around me have talked about the case...and that is that it really ANGERS people that a woman in the prime of her life, a mother of two beautiful little girls, was coldly murdered and dumped in a remote cul-de-sac like someone was taking out the trash.

It's not just heinous...it's cruel on so many levels, and to so many people. I can't imagine loading a body into the trunk of my car...that body belonging to someone I vowed to love and cherish, who gave birth to my children, then driving somewhere and dumping that body out. I just can't imagine then going about my life afterwards, living with what I had done. I know it happens and happens all too often. But when it hits so close to home (literally), it makes you realize how real and tragic and final it is. And such a waste; such an unbelievable waste of several lives all at once, leaving a wake of pain that will persist forever.

So unnecessary.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 12:25 AM
Me too! I think they WILL get them; I just don't know how 'soon' it will occur. All ducks in order first with no wiggle room takes time. Sometimes longer than we'd like. It's important it be done right, and thoroughly, and to the letter of the law!

Oh, absolutely! I just wish I was in on the scoop. It's like it's impossible for your mind to rest until you know.:banghead:

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:32 AM
Oh, absolutely! I just wish I was in on the scoop. It's like it's impossible for your mind to rest until you know.:banghead: I wish I were too. Little snippets here 'n there are nice, but woefully inadequate to quench a sleuthy-size thirst. When the O.J. case was happening I followed EVERY last piece of info from the prelim through the civil case...I had encyclopedic knowledge of that case down to each blood stain and where it was sent for testing. I was a woman obsessed. That lit the fire, so-to-speak. I don't follow every case, nor even every high-profile case, but the few I do occasionally get my teeth into, it's like I have to study every single thing along the way.

This one has me hooked for some reason.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 12:38 AM
I wish I were too. Little snippets here 'n there are nice, but woefully inadequate to quench a sleuthy-size thirst. When the O.J. case was happening I followed EVERY last piece of info from the prelim through the civil case...I had encyclopedic knowledge of that case down to each blood stain and where it was sent for testing. I was a woman obsessed. That lit the fire, so-to-speak. I don't follow every case, nor even every high-profile case, but the few I do occasionally get my teeth into, it's like I have to study every single thing along the way.

This one has me hooked for some reason.
Me too, and I think I've finally figured out why that is for me. My cousin was murdered by her ex about 20 years ago. She was about Nancy's age and her mother, my aunt (also now deceased), looks/looked so much like Nancy. The resemblance is uncanny. It's strange how people can associate other's lives with their own experiences.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:44 AM
Me too, and I think I've finally figured out why that is for me. My cousin was murdered by her ex about 20 years ago. She was about Nancy's age and her mother, my aunt (also now deceased), looks/looked so much like Nancy. The resemblance is uncanny. It's strange how people can associate other's lives with their own experiences. WOW Entre! I'm so sorry about your cousin. No wonder this hits close to home for you! That would pull you in for sure. I can't believe how common spousal murder is. I know it always existed but still.... :hand:

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:05 AM
BTW, this is your daily IT'S A SMALL WORLD moment: I was at a party tonight and was with the person being referenced by JTF in this post (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2477927&postcount=319). I happen to be friends with this individual and recognized this person's username because I communicate with them occasionally via email.

And this individual is absolutely telling the truth. They *do* have a friend who is in the law enforcement field and that convo with that friend DID happen. Now I have no way of knowing if my contact's friend was embellishing the story in anyway or not. We were discussing this case and my contact mentioned their friend and I remembered reading their post and then I point-blank asked them if that was really true...and I was assured that the story is true--and that's what they were told, verbatim.

So for what it's worth, I thought I'd share it with y'all. I see this person socially a couple times a month...I had no idea they were posting on that WRAL message board until I happened to see it myself a few weeks ago.

SMALL WORLD, eh?

So if I have the times correct by the post...it was the 16th @ 12:19pm. This would be during the SW. They already knew who did it. Am I correct abouut this timing?

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:10 AM
So if I have the times correct by the post...it was the 16th right after noon time. This would be during the SW. They already knew who did it. Am I correct abouut this timing? Good question...I don't know about the exact timing of that convo or how it related to any of the SWs or even IF it related to the SWs. I think it was more of a 'general impression' type comment between the 2 (P.I. applicant and CPD person), but of course the CPD person would be knowlegeable of whatever was known by that point so their opinion would reflect that.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:14 AM
Good question...I don't know about the exact timing of that convo or how it related to any of the SWs or even IF it related to the SWs. I think it was more of a 'general impression' type comment between the 2 (P.I. applicant and CPD person), but of course the CPD person would be knowlegeable of whatever was known by that point so their opinion would reflect that.

SG...with the link you posted it shows the post and this...
jmflu
July 16, 2008 12:19 p.m.

so this puts it at a time the search was being conducted.

See if you see it the same way I am. I know its late and I could be missing something...but the original post appears like it was the time of posting.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:22 AM
July 16, 2008 12:19 p.m.

Yes indeed that was the time of that person's post on the original thread. So if that convo happened exactly as described, the day before, then the remark between the "P.I. applicant" and someone in LE would have occurred on 7/15. Keep in mind that this info is 2nd (or 3rd) hand so give it whatever weight you think it deserves.

I personally believe it cause it sounds like one of those momentary exchanges that is kind of flippant on the surface, but upon reflection is imbued with more meaning.

One more thought: just the fact that a mother of 2 went missing in a VERY SAFE community, and the fact that she was in an extremely unhappy marriage, on the verge of divorce, still living with a husband who did NOT report her missing...that alone would raise LE's HINKY FLAG a lot. If that comment was made, it could have reflected that, as much as anything found in the investigation.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:37 AM
Yes indeed that was the time of that person's post on the original thread. So if that convo happened exactly as described, the day before, then the remark between the "P.I. applicant" and someone in LE would have occurred on 7/15. Keep in mind that this info is 2nd (or 3rd) hand so give it whatever weight you think it deserves.

I personally believe it cause it sounds like one of those momentary exchanges that is kind of flippant on the surface, but upon reflection is imbued with more meaning.

One more thought: just the fact that a mother of 2 went missing in a VERY SAFE community, and the fact that she was in an extremely unhappy marriage, on the verge of divorce, still living with a husband who did NOT report her missing...that alone would raise LE's HINKY FLAG a lot. If that comment was made, it could have reflected that, as much as anything found in the investigation.

Correct. The conversation happened on Tuesday if the poster is correct. . This would have happened before the SW. NC had been found and the area searched while waiting word on her being ID'd.

BC going to SH once NC was identified. I now wonder if he thought the LE would come to arrest him that night and he needed the girls to be with someone if this occured?

I tell you the LE went to HT pretty darn quick after talking to BC. He told them something that did not sit right with them. I don't know the exact time they went, but by Sunday afternoon they had already come, reviewed and found what they wanted.

LTF is also another clue to them, I tell you that is not right either.

Not calling the LE, the hospital or having any concern. He messed up big time and IMO they knew who they needed to look at immediately.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 02:00 AM
I now wonder if he thought the LE would come to arrest him that night and he needed the girls to be with someone if this occured?

hmmmm don't know. The girls would not have been left alone if this happened. LE would have made sure the girls were with NC's parents or sister I think.


I tell you the LE went to HT pretty darn quick after talking to BC. He told them something that did not sit right with them. I don't know the exact time they went, but by Sunday afternoon they had already come, reviewed and found what they wanted.What would you normally expect a turnaround time to be in such a case? Maybe they were concerned that the video tape (if tape was used) might 'loop' over every 7 days or less, as some of these systems do, and they wanted to make sure they got ahold of the video images before that happened. She went missing on 7/12...HT visit on 7/12. So they probably thought they needed to get any video well before 7/19, in case the system was looping.


LTF is also another clue to them, I tell you that is not right either.No it's got HINKY DINKY PARLEZ VOUS all over it (to quote myself).


Not calling the LE, the hospital or having any concern. He messed up big time and IMO they knew who they needed to look at immediately. Yes, clearly. I mean just statistically it's usually the intimate partner in what...like 95+% of these cases (maybe higher?) So just from a pure stats standpoint they'd HAVE TO think of him as a possible perp. THEN you add in the data points of:

- very unhappy/contentious rel'p on the verge of divorce and this is well known to everyone around them.
- no one else saw her after midnight the Fri before
- no one had seen her "jogging" that morning in what can only be considered a fairly busy/active and SAFE community
- husband doesn't report her missing at all...not even HOURS later.
- husband is "out and about looking in all the wrong places" for 2.5 hrs
- husband's 'search' for wife on 7/12 is only prompted by the wife's best friend calling twice and wanting to come over to watch the kids.
- Best friend of wife has been FRANTIC and WORRIED about her friend not showing up for 8am painting appt. Either this friend is a paranoid nervous Nelly who needs to be on heavy tranquilizers *or* friend has been fearing for the safety of NC for some time and HER HINKY METER went off full throttle that morning when NC did not show up and she couldn't locate her. (hint: I select option B).

And THAT'S what occurs in just a period of what, less than 8 hours?

LE would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb NOT to see there was something very strange going on right from the get-go and involving the husband.

Brad locked himself in to a timeline, made some strange choices in 'searching' for his wife, did not show any concern UNTIL NC's best friend was going to be in his face at his house, made early morning visits to a grocery store (one for laundry detergent), and isolated himself from press conferences, being with the in-laws, etc, etc.

HINKY x2.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 02:16 AM
Yep, there's no way I think they'd have handed those girls over without thinking BC was their man.

Hinky squared.

I just figured out who used to say hinky a lot. "Al" from Quantum Leap.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 09:09 AM
Correct. The conversation happened on Tuesday if the poster is correct. . This would have happened before the SW. NC had been found and the area searched while waiting word on her being ID'd.

BC going to SH once NC was identified. I now wonder if he thought the LE would come to arrest him that night and he needed the girls to be with someone if this occured?

I tell you the LE went to HT pretty darn quick after talking to BC. He told them something that did not sit right with them. I don't know the exact time they went, but by Sunday afternoon they had already come, reviewed and found what they wanted.

LTF is also another clue to them, I tell you that is not right either.

Not calling the LE, the hospital or having any concern. He messed up big time and IMO they knew who they needed to look at immediately.


Don't forget LE was in the house by 3pm the same day Nancy went missing - no telling what they saw. Trained observers basically in the house, looking at everything visible, watching Brad for reactions to questions about Nancy, looking over the X5 while Brad allows them to take Nancy's purse, observation of the contents of the purse most likely. Already aware of the marital relationship which obviously Brad did not deny. Also Jessica Adam and Michelle Richardson were there as well - a lot of data points within 8 hours of when Brad said she went missing, and as we know from the affidavits, very differing views of what happened. JA was in a bit of a panic on the 911 call, it's highly likely her panic had not subsided by the time LE spoke with her at the Cooper residence that afternoon.

I would say LE had some clues that they might be dealing with more than a missing person case on July 12.

Skittles
08-17-2008, 09:27 AM
Good morning, RC. I've been spending the morning pondering the "why the visit to Lifetime Fitness" issue. Haven't come up with anything that holds water when you think through all the holes (other than just proving that he did try to "find" Nancy). Still thinking...

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 09:31 AM
Good morning, RC. I've been spending the morning pondering the "why the visit to Lifetime Fitness" issue. Haven't come up with anything that holds water when you think through all the holes (other than just proving that he did try to "find" Nancy). Still thinking...

Add these two thoughts to your data base.

JA when she called 911, was unsure if 911 could do anything to help since Nancy had not been gone for 24 hours.


Brad in his affidavit also references he did not think Nancy could be reported missing until after 24 hours.

maconrich
08-17-2008, 09:33 AM
ok question - but please keep in mind I'm figting a bug and am not thinking clearly, plus when I'm sick I tend to go into ultra-sensitive (aka confused) mode. That said, I've been thinking about RKAB's (and others) posts on the Canada issue. As in that Canada tends to protect it's citizens when it comes to death penalty states; and also that BC might be in the process of obtaining US citizenship which may include not being able to return to Canada for one year.

It seems BC is being looked at very closely by CPD and his travels are quite possibly being monitored. But he's not been charged yet or named a POI, and as far as we know no restrictions have been placed on him stating he can't leave the area/states (at least by LE).

So, since he's not been charged *yet* and if he is guilty (and so far that's how it looks), I'm not actually sure why he's sticking around. Granted it would seem his education and training would be lost and I'm not even sure that someone would be able to function in society under their own name -- or maybe that would apply more once/when charges were involved? It's a fairly safe bet that CPD will have enough on him in the near future (if they don't already) to bring charges, and I'd think they'd do that no matter if he was living here or in Canada, right? or wrong?

Why is he sticking around waiting? Can he be that certain he either won't be charged or won't be found guilty - either because he didn't do it or because he just doesn't believe he'll be found guilty? Trying to put myself in his head and..well I don't know that staying put would be the prime option (but then again I sure wouldn't ko my so or anyone else except in self defense that is!)

Skittles
08-17-2008, 09:47 AM
Add these two thoughts to your data base.

JA when she called 911, was unsure if 911 could do anything to help since Nancy had not been gone for 24 hours.


Brad in his affidavit also references he did not think Nancy could be reported missing until after 24 hours.

There are two possibilities I'm thinking about. I'll put them in separate posts so people can refer to the individually.

First, towels. LTF has lots and lots of white towels. There is no fee for using LTF towels. If you go to the outdoor pool you are supposed to bring your own towels from home for that, though.

What if the Coopers had snuck some of the towels home, maybe some dry ones so they could protect the car seats from the girls wet swimsuits if they didn't change to dry clothes at the club? Maybe they did this regularly and returned the towels later. If they had some of those towels at home BC could have used them for cleanup or for lining the car trunk. They could have been washed once at home (or not at all) and then brought back in a gym bag and added to the big baskets to get washed again.

Holes: He would have had to check in to bring the towels in. He would have had to carry the bag in (suspicious if he was supposed to be searching for his wife) Also, he had the girls with him, so he would have had to leave them in the car or bring them in with him.

All in all, seems risky for him, but in panic, maybe?

Roy23
08-17-2008, 09:49 AM
ok question - but please keep in mind I'm figting a bug and am not thinking clearly, plus when I'm sick I tend to go into ultra-sensitive (aka confused) mode. That said, I've been thinking about RKAB's (and others) posts on the Canada issue. As in that Canada tends to protect it's citizens when it comes to death penalty states; and also that BC might be in the process of obtaining US citizenship which may include not being able to return to Canada for one year.

It seems BC is being looked at very closely by CPD and his travels are quite possibly being monitored. But he's not been charged yet or named a POI, and as far as we know no restrictions have been placed on him stating he can't leave the area/states (at least by LE).

So, since he's not been charged *yet* and if he is guilty (and so far that's how it looks), I'm not actually sure why he's sticking around. Granted it would seem his education and training would be lost and I'm not even sure that someone would be able to function in society under their own name -- or maybe that would apply more once/when charges were involved? It's a fairly safe bet that CPD will have enough on him in the near future (if they don't already) to bring charges, and I'd think they'd do that no matter if he was living here or in Canada, right? or wrong?

Why is he sticking around waiting? Can he be that certain he either won't be charged or won't be found guilty - either because he didn't do it or because he just doesn't believe he'll be found guilty? Trying to put myself in his head and..well I don't know that staying put would be the prime option (but then again I sure wouldn't ko my so or anyone else except in self defense that is!)

They would probably send him back anyway. I think he will just blow his brains out instead. Of course, he may not know everything they have on him either. And you can bet his attorney will be keeping him positive assuming he is charged.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:00 AM
There are two possibilities I'm thinking about. I'll put them in separate posts so people can refer to the individually.

First, towels. LTF has lots and lots of white towels. There is no fee for using LTF towels. If you go to the outdoor pool you are supposed to bring your own towels from home for that, though.

What if the Coopers had snuck some of the towels home, maybe some dry ones so they could protect the car seats from the girls wet swimsuits if they didn't change to dry clothes at the club? Maybe they did this regularly and returned the towels later. If they had some of those towels at home BC could have used them for cleanup or for lining the car trunk. They could have been washed once at home (or not at all) and then brought back in a gym bag and added to the big baskets to get washed again.

Holes: He would have had to check in to bring the towels in. He would have had to carry the bag in (suspicious if he was supposed to be searching for his wife) Also, he had the girls with him, so he would have had to leave them in the car or bring them in with him.

All in all, seems risky for him, but in panic, maybe?

Since you know about the white towels is it safe to assume you are a member of LTF ? I have some questions about the membership cards specifically and would appreciate any help in getting answers. I understand however if you do not wish to answer publically. No problem at all.

maconrich
08-17-2008, 10:03 AM
They would probably send him back anyway. I think he will just blow his brains out instead. Of course, he may not know everything they have on him either. And you can bet his attorney will be keeping him positive assuming he is charged.

Ouch, with that mental image I think I'll take some more aspirin and go back to bed! I do agree that if he's staying clear of the internet (and away from people who might be talking/staring), he might be buying into a positive scenario. This so seriously sucks for everyone involved and esp for those two innocent little girls...(well and obviously for NC herself)

ncnative
08-17-2008, 10:10 AM
They would probably send him back anyway. I think he will just blow his brains out instead. Of course, he may not know everything they have on him either. And you can bet his attorney will be keeping him positive assuming he is charged.

Roy, I've said he'd commit suicide if arrested, from the beginning (in my mind and on the WS board). I wouldn't be surprised if he's going to take a few pills, drink a bottle of wine and watch the Olympics til he dozes off into oblivion. They'll find him when they come to arrest him, dead. Although, I'll bet someone will have a better story than I.

If not, I'm surprised that he hasn't already gone to Sally Beauty and purchased hair dye in "Come-Hither Blonde" as well as goatee grooming aids. Do you think he's asked his mom to borrow her car and credit cards for a jaunt to Mexico? I wonder if CPD has checked the local music stores to see if he's bought a "Come Away with Me" CD and called his lover to go on a trip with him?

Seriously, he seems personality-disordered, with narcissistic being on top of the list. Never expect the normal from someone like that. He'd kill himself just to keep anyone from "having him", as in prison or having him caught thus exposing his real self to the world. Narcissists unravel and panic when their real selves become evident to those they've led to believe they are so wonderful.

Anyway, you WS folks are working hard. The Cary PD should take a vacation. You will have it tied up by the time they get back to work.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 10:10 AM
I think he will just blow his brains out instead. Of course, he may not know everything they have on him either. And you can bet his attorney will be keeping him positive assuming he is charged.

Quite a few folks think BC will kill himself if charged/convicted...I think he won't. I thought Scott Peterson would kill himself before ever going to SQ but surprise-surprise!

Skittles
08-17-2008, 10:15 AM
Since you know about the white towels is it safe to assume you are a member of LTF ? I have some questions about the membership cards specifically and would appreciate any help in getting answers. I understand however if you do not wish to answer publically. No problem at all.

Ask away. I'll answer whatever I feel comfortable with.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:23 AM
Ask away. I'll answer whatever I feel comfortable with.


Thank you.

First - your towel theory -some very good points about using them to protect the seats in the car if the children had been swimming. This makes sense thinking about it and certainly could have occurred. As to the return, yes I see the risks he would have to take to do so. If there is a dumpster in the back lot - perhaps he could have "returned" them there as well ?

Card Question:

Say a single person has a membership. We have heard that upon entry the card is handed to a clerk and the clerk swipes the card. A monitor displays for the clerk a picture of the card member and pertainant data. The clerk verifies the person to the picture, returns the card and the member is allowed entry - correct so far ?

Now if someone comes in trying to use this member's card and the clerk realizes the person infront of them is not the same as the picture on the monitor - do you know what happens ? For instance does the clerk keep the card - call in a manager or what the procedure is ?

I have more - but one at a time.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 10:24 AM
I'm surprised that he hasn't already gone to Sally Beauty and purchased hair dye in "Come-Hither Blonde" as well as goatee grooming aids.

Hee! I think the appropriate color is "PoolHair Orange!"


Anyway, you WS folks are working hard. The Cary PD should take a vacation. You will have it tied up by the time they get back to work.

Never underestimate the collective brainpower of a bunch of sleuthies! There are some seriously smart people around here.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:29 AM
SG.....I understand what you are saying about HT and possible overwriting the video, but to make haste to go there and have what they wanted by early afternoon on Sunday, something they felt they needed to find.

After all this was just a missing 34 yo woman who was in an unhappy marriage and the husband states as per his affidavit she does basically what she wants to do. No reason to worry with the husband not being concerned, right?

You know those LE staying in the home that long to take a missing persons report....they knew, they just had to know it didn't look good IMO.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 10:36 AM
SG.....I understand what you are saying about HT and possible overwriting the video, but to make haste to go there and have what they wanted by early afternoon on Sunday, something they felt they needed to find.

True! And of course her body had not been found yet so LE didn't know for sure that she was deceased at this point, right?


You know those LE staying in the home that long to take a missing persons report....they knew, they just had to know it didn't look good IMO.

How long were they in the home taking that report?

Skittles
08-17-2008, 10:45 AM
Thank you.

First - your towel theory -some very good points about using them to protect the seats in the car if the children had been swimming. This makes sense thinking about it and certainly could have occurred. As to the return, yes I see the risks he would have to take to do so. If there is a dumpster in the back lot - perhaps he could have "returned" them there as well ?

Card Question:

Say a single person has a membership. We have heard that upon entry the card is handed to a clerk and the clerk swipes the card. A monitor displays for the clerk a picture of the card member and pertainant data. The clerk verifies the person to the picture, returns the card and the member is allowed entry - correct so far ?

Now if someone comes in trying to use this member's card and the clerk realizes the person infront of them is not the same as the picture on the monitor - do you know what happens ? For instance does the clerk keep the card - call in a manager or what the procedure is ?

I have more - but one at a time.

Dumpster: I can't say for sure right now, but it looks like there is one in this photo

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=35.733895&lon=-78.787154&z=19.3&r=0&src=msl

See the kind of angled enclosure where the pavement is a lighter color in the back of the building?

Yes, they look at the picture on the card and return it to you. The original membership cards had your picture on them, but that changed this spring when they issued new cards. At the time I asked them if they kept the old photos online to verify, and the clerk said yes.

If you present the wrong card, I don't know what happens.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:55 AM
Dumpster: I can't say for sure right now, but it looks like there is one in this photo

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=35.733895&lon=-78.787154&z=19.3&r=0&src=msl

See the kind of angled enclosure where the pavement is a lighter color in the back of the building?

Yes, they look at the picture on the card and return it to you. The original membership cards had your picture on them, but that changed this spring when they issued new cards. At the time I asked them if they kept the old photos online to verify, and the clerk said yes.

If you present the wrong card, I don't know what happens.

WOW - great photo - thanks very much ! I do see the area you are referring to -hard to tell if is access limited but it could have a gate on it possibly. Do you know what that area is just northwest - kinda looks like maybe just greenspace ? Thanks for this, very useful to "see" the layout.

To the card - LFT would probably not be very happy if one loaned their card to some one for use I would think - are you aware of any covenants in the membership that says you can or cannot do this ?

Second question - again if you know. With family memberships, is it safe to assume that each adult would have their own individual card - in other words the club would be able to tell for instance if it was Brad or Nancy that may have entered the club on a certain day and time ? Any idea if the children would be issued cards or perhaps their pictures or information just shows up on the monitor when the adults bring them in?

I know I may be asking things you do not know but I appreciate you trying to help me understand this.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:59 AM
If he went to Sally's Beauty Supply he would have to buy a toupee 1st. This balding is very noticeable.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 10:59 AM
Dumpster: I can't say for sure right now, but it looks like there is one in this photo

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=35.733895&lon=-78.787154&z=19.3&r=0&src=msl

See the kind of angled enclosure where the pavement is a lighter color in the back of the building?

Yes, they look at the picture on the card and return it to you. The original membership cards had your picture on them, but that changed this spring when they issued new cards. At the time I asked them if they kept the old photos online to verify, and the clerk said yes.

If you present the wrong card, I don't know what happens.

Just out of curiosity.. Where you able to keep the old cards that had the photo ID on them or did you have to turn them in when the new cards were issued?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:11 AM
WOW - great photo - thanks very much ! I do see the area you are referring to -hard to tell if is access limited but it could have a gate on it possibly. Do you know what that area is just northwest - kinda looks like maybe just greenspace ? Thanks for this, very useful to "see" the layout.



I know I may be asking things you do not know but I appreciate you trying to help me understand this.
RC

The area you are asking about is land that has been cleared for either something getting ready to be built or is for sale. It is at a major intersection of Tryon Rd, Regency Pkwy, US #1 and HWY 64 meet. Priceless property.

Years ago this had a little white farmhouse on it with one of the largest trees I have ever seen. Now priceless piece of land.

Star12
08-17-2008, 11:12 AM
Carey Clark lives in a condo, correct? Wouldn't there be unsecured dumpsters there? Just wondering...

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:14 AM
RC

The area you are asking about is land that has been cleared for either something getting ready to be built or is for sale. It is at a major intersection of Tryon Rd, Regency Pkwy, US #1 and HWY 64 meet. Priceless property.

Years ago this had a little white farmhouse on it with one of the largest trees I have ever seen. Now priceless piece of land.

I guess I asked that wrong Mom - I was meaning the area right next to what looks like the dumpster on the left - on the LTF property along the building. Sorry I just didn't ask that the right way.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Carey Clark lives in a condo, correct? Wouldn't there be unsecured dumpsters there? Just wondering...


Bet there are.

Skittles
08-17-2008, 11:25 AM
WOW - great photo - thanks very much ! I do see the area you are referring to -hard to tell if is access limited but it could have a gate on it possibly. Do you know what that area is just northwest - kinda looks like maybe just greenspace ? Thanks for this, very useful to "see" the layout.

To the card - LFT would probably not be very happy if one loaned their card to some one for use I would think - are you aware of any covenants in the membership that says you can or cannot do this ?

Second question - again if you know. With family memberships, is it safe to assume that each adult would have their own individual card - in other words the club would be able to tell for instance if it was Brad or Nancy that may have entered the club on a certain day and time ? Any idea if the children would be issued cards or perhaps their pictures or information just shows up on the monitor when the adults bring them in?

I know I may be asking things you do not know but I appreciate you trying to help me understand this.

The green area: Do you mean those trees on the NE side? There is a path off the back parking lot that leads through the trees to the walking path that parallels Crescent Green Drive. Crescent Greens Drive is all businesses, no homes. You can get to the end of Lochmere Drive and also to an apartment complex off of Crescent Green drive. You can also get to another road that runs behind Walmart and Harris Teeter.

Using someone else's card: I do not see anything specific in the agreement about lending cards. Still, I'd bet they'd have something to say about it.

Families. Each parent would have a card, teens do, not sure about small children.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:26 AM
Carey Clark lives in a condo, correct? Wouldn't there be unsecured dumpsters there? Just wondering...
I don't know how it is done where Carey lives.
I can name at least a dozen places with dumpsters he would have passed before he got to LTF. Once he entered Kildaire Farm Road it is all commercial. He had the Lochmere Pavillion (Java Jive) right there that has I believe 2 sets, 1 on the top level and 1 on the bottom.

Did BC say he called Java Jive to see if NC had been there?????? NO

Skittles
08-17-2008, 11:27 AM
Just out of curiosity.. Where you able to keep the old cards that had the photo ID on them or did you have to turn them in when the new cards were issued?

The old cards had to be turned in.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:28 AM
Question about those LTF cards and front desk procedures: do they VERIFY each and every time that the person presenting the card is, in fact, the person whose pic comes up on the screen? Who works the front desk? Is it like high school kids or college kids?

At my gym your profile comes up when they input your member #, but the staff doesn't necessarily 'closely' check to make sure you and your profile pic match. They hire a lot of young'uns to work there...age 16 - 20.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:30 AM
Did BC say he called Java Jive to see if NC had been there?????? NO

And for those who have been to JJ, this place is teeny-tiny, family-owned, people know each other by name there. I witnessed that personally the last time I was there. Plus of course they named a smoothie after the eldest Cooper daughter, so they knew Nancy and the kids. It would have been a logical place to inquire if NC had been seen that morning...

That is *if* one were REALLY LOOKING and *if* you didn't already know where she was (cause you placed her where she was found).

Skittles
08-17-2008, 11:34 AM
Question about those LTF cards and front desk procedures: do they VERIFY each and every time that the person presenting the card is, in fact, the person whose pic comes up on the screen?

At my gym your profile comes up when they input your member #, but the staff doesn't necessarily 'closely' check to make sure you and your profile pic match.

They do look at you, but I know I don't look much like my picture half of the time (not showered yet, etc.)

DogWood
08-17-2008, 11:35 AM
I do have a few facts...

BC was searching on Monday the 14th with long sleeves, a cap, and shorts. He did have a short conversation with someone from my home (I will not say me or who) and did ask a direct question. This was done at an outside location where BC was searching.

I saw a missing or broken bolt for his license tag, or just didn't bolt 1 end on. It was hanging about 2" lower on 1 side.

He does wear short sleeves, I have seen him recently. He has had company at his home, a male.

Both vehicles have been at his home visible at least 1 time since the SW

He has now shut all blinds and covered the window panes surrounding his front door.

Hi, Momto3kids!

I've been really curious about this as well.

Since you were close enough to notice that there is a missing or broken bolt for his license tag on the sedan, did you happen to notice the stickers as well?

I'm just wondering if he kept the stickers current on the sedan he drove, unlike the stickers on the SUV.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:35 AM
As we know burning is the best way to get rid of evidence. Are there any incinerators in/around that area? Any place where something could have been put that would end up burned?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:38 AM
Skittles....is there any way they would give out information about your spouse being there? This is a prime example now of why I could see they wouldn't, but do you think they would have told BC she had by looking at that days register of who entered.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 11:38 AM
The old cards had to be turned in.

Thanks, Skittles! :)

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:38 AM
The green area: Do you mean those trees on the NE side? There is a path off the back parking lot that leads through the trees to the walking path that parallels Crescent Green Drive. Crescent Greens Drive is all businesses, no homes. You can get to the end of Lochmere Drive and also to an apartment complex off of Crescent Green drive. You can also get to another road that runs behind Walmart and Harris Teeter.

Using someone else's card: I do not see anything specific in the agreement about lending cards. Still, I'd bet they'd have something to say about it.

Families. Each parent would have a card, teens do, not sure about small children.

It does seem there are several ways to access the club property if one is out running - nice tree lined areas - very nice. I see the paths along Crescent Green Drive. The road looks fairly narrow - no street parking along there ?

Yes , I don't think LTF would be happy about loaning a card out since it is a costly membership. So if each parent has a card, then LTF would definitely be able through the computer records to differentiate between all parties issued a card under a family membership. In other words if Nancy went in, the club could review the record and say Nancy was here on such and such day at this time - sound reasonable to you ? For instance, if one were to walk in to check in and accidently used their spouses card, the computer would know which person it was supposed to be, show their picture and the clerk would possibly say - this is your spouses card ? Ooops I'll go get mine, back in a minute -

One last question - if a person has small children - is there like a supervised nursery area where the parent can leave the children while working out ?

Are you feeling like you are getting the third degree yet ?:blowkiss:

Sorry

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:38 AM
As we know burning is the best way to get rid of evidence. Are there any incinerators in/around that area? Any place where something could have been put that would end up burned?

YES!!!! The hospital.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:43 AM
YES!!!! The hospital.

:eek:

Now wouldn't it be interesting if his only visit to the 'hospital' wasn't exactly to check on if his wife was there, injured?

Skittles
08-17-2008, 11:44 AM
It does seem there are several ways to access the club property if one is out running - nice tree lined areas - very nice. I see the paths along Crescent Green Drive. The road looks fairly narrow - no street parking along there ?

Yes , I don't think LTF would be happy about loaning a card out since it is a costly membership. So if each parent has a card, then LTF would definitely be able through the computer records to differentiate between all parties issued a card under a family membership. In other words if Nancy went in, the club could review the record and say Nancy was here on such and such day at this time - sound reasonable to you ? For instance, if one were to walk in to check in and accidently used their spouses card, the computer would know which person it was supposed to be, show their picture and the clerk would possibly say - this is your spouses card ? Ooops I'll go get mine, back in a minute -

One last question - if a person has small children - is there like a supervised nursery area where the parent can leave the children while working out ?

Are you feeling like you are getting the third degree yet ?:blowkiss:

Sorry

No problem about the questions.

I could see that happening if you used your spouse's card.

There is a very large child care center, including computers.

wirehair
08-17-2008, 11:45 AM
It took years for them to finally convince that farmer to sell his land. When he did it was sold by the square foot. I knew the brother in law, but I can't remember the farmer's name.




RC

The area you are asking about is land that has been cleared for either something getting ready to be built or is for sale. It is at a major intersection of Tryon Rd, Regency Pkwy, US #1 and HWY 64 meet. Priceless property.

Years ago this had a little white farmhouse on it with one of the largest trees I have ever seen. Now priceless piece of land.

Skittles
08-17-2008, 11:47 AM
Skittles....is there any way they would give out information about your spouse being there? This is a prime example now of why I could see they wouldn't, but do you think they would have told BC she had by looking at that days register of who entered.

Don't know about that, but I have thought about trying it.

Did you see my question a bit back about the shovel BC found? Was it near the Tryon Rd. construction area or the Kildaire Farm construction?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:48 AM
No problem about the questions.

I could see that happening if you used your spouse's card.

There is a very large child care center, including computers.

I can see that happening as well Skittles. Wondering if it did happen actually. If the clerk wasn't real attentive - it could have possibly even gone unnoticed. Thank you for all the information - I'll stop pestering you and study for a while. I just have a problem with LTF.


By the way - you said you had another idea -beyond the towels. Since I side tracked you - what is your other idea ?

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:48 AM
If a member goes outside to use any facilities out there (walking paths, pool?) then needs to come back in, could they use their card to come back into the facility from a door other than the main front entrance?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:53 AM
You know....BC didn't list any of the calls he could have and should have made, as well as the other possible places NC could have gone.

Adding these should have included...
Java Jive..goes all the time
Western Wake Med. Center...unidentified person
Hemlock Bluffs...walking trails
CPD for any possible critical accidents..possible victim air lifted
Mike and Clea..friends of both, NC had trip planned w/them..maybe finalizing
walk across the street to DD to check if she heard NC mention anything about the 12th and different plans than JA

But he goes to LTF? Something is real wrong with this. IMO he went there with a purpose and no more.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:55 AM
It took years for them to finally convince that farmer to sell his land. When he did it was sold by the square foot. I knew the brother in law, but I can't remember the farmer's name.

How about the person who would not sell for CrossRoads and they built around the house and the person finally gave in? LOL

wirehair
08-17-2008, 11:59 AM
I had forgotten about that.


How about the person who would not sell for CrossRoads and they built around the house and the person finally gave in? LOL

wirehair
08-17-2008, 12:01 PM
I wish all of the open land around here would just stay open and not be sold.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:01 PM
You know....BC didn't list any of the calls he could have and should have made, as well as the other possible places NC could have gone.

Adding these should have included...
Java Jive..goes all the time
Western Wake Med. Center...unidentified person
Hemlock Bluffs...walking trails
CPD for any possible critical accidents..possible victim air lifted
Mike and Clea..friends of both, NC had trip planned w/them..maybe finalizing
walk across the street to DD to check if she heard NC mention anything about the 12th and different plans than JA

But he goes to LTF? Something is real wrong with this. IMO he went there with a purpose and no more.

IMHO he wasn't really looking for NC, but was trying to extend the timeline of when she went missing. At that point he didn't know LE had already been contacted by JA. So in his mind he's got 24 hrs to figure stuff out. He's driving around for 2.5 HOURS! Think about that. Why was it so important he stay away from his house? Why in all his "searching" did he not look at any of those places that Mom lists? And WHERE was he looking then, if not any of those places? He had the kids in the car--he could NOT have gone off looking on the trails, with kids in tow.

WHAT WAS HE DOING during that time?

Until CPD called him at 3pm and told him to come back to his house, he had NO idea they were already involved. That must have been a huge "ruh roh" moment, no?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 12:03 PM
Don't know about that, but I have thought about trying it.

Did you see my question a bit back about the shovel BC found? Was it near the Tryon Rd. construction area or the Kildaire Farm construction?

Yes, down in the back of Lochmere Pavillion. It was determined a construction shovel left behind. IMO LE would have taken that shovel with them immediately if they thought in a NY minute it was part of this case and put up tape. Didn't stay around to make sure they didn't take it, but was told to come on and continue searching, instead of being told to stay away.

LE knew by this time what they needed and it was NC body IMO

DogWood
08-17-2008, 12:05 PM
You know....BC didn't list any of the calls he could have and should have made, as well as the other possible places NC could have gone.

Adding these should have included...
Java Jive..goes all the time
Western Wake Med. Center...unidentified person
Hemlock Bluffs...walking trails
CPD for any possible critical accidents..possible victim air lifted
Mike and Clea..friends of both, NC had trip planned w/them..maybe finalizing
walk across the street to DD to check if she heard NC mention anything about the 12th and different plans than JA

But he goes to LTF? Something is real wrong with this. IMO he went there with a purpose and no more.

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before. If it was, I missed it.


Do we know what time he went to LTF?

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:06 PM
Mom, I have a question about his demeanor on that search day. Any info about how he was acting? Talkative? Quiet? Crying? Worried? Just along for the ride with the searchers? Any insight you can shed on that for me?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 12:16 PM
Mom, I have a question about his demeanor on that search day. Any info about how he was acting? Talkative? Quiet? Crying? Worried? Just along for the ride with the searchers? Any insight you can shed on that for me?

Looked concerned, but talked. Talked about the bugs biting him and the shovel he found. Shook hands. It was the look when he asked a few questions. But again we speak on here about his look so in person it's a little more real.
This is all I really want to say about BC....just unsettling.

Skittles
08-17-2008, 12:19 PM
If a member goes outside to use any facilities out there (walking paths, pool?) then needs to come back in, could they use their card to come back into the facility from a door other than the main front entrance?

Members must enter and leave through the front lobby. The pool is enclosed by fence that goes up to the building. They might allow employees to exit through another door.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:19 PM
Do we know what time he went to LTF?

Yes excellent question. Wasn't it closer to 1pm on that Saturday? It seems he went there ahead of any visit to "Carey's condo/townhouse community." Now why would that be? He knew she couldn't get in; he knew she didn't have her LTF card on her. So why would that be a place he'd go to look at all, let alone instead of looking at more salient places like the nearby hospital, or a coffeeshop?

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:20 PM
Members must enter and leave through the front lobby. The pool is enclosed by fence that goes up to the building. They might allow employees to exit through another door.

Thanks Skittles. Sounds like that front desk area gets pretty busy, yes? You've got people coming in, people going to/from the pool. It's grand central station, in a sense.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:22 PM
Looked concerned, but talked. Talked about the bugs biting him and the shovel he found. Shook hands. It was the look when he asked a few questions. But again we speak on here about his look so in person it's a little more real.
This is all I really want to say about BC....just unsettling.

Okay thanks!

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 12:25 PM
Did I miss the obituary in the News&Observer about NC placed by the grieving husband who 'loved his wife'?

Skittles
08-17-2008, 12:25 PM
Yes, down in the back of Lochmere Pavillion. It was determined a construction shovel left behind. IMO LE would have taken that shovel with them immediately if they thought in a NY minute it was part of this case and put up tape. Didn't stay around to make sure they didn't take it, but was told to come on and continue searching, instead of being told to stay away.

LE knew by this time what they needed and it was NC body IMO

Thanks!

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 12:26 PM
There are two possibilities I'm thinking about. I'll put them in separate posts so people can refer to the individually.

First, towels. LTF has lots and lots of white towels. There is no fee for using LTF towels. If you go to the outdoor pool you are supposed to bring your own towels from home for that, though.

What if the Coopers had snuck some of the towels home, maybe some dry ones so they could protect the car seats from the girls wet swimsuits if they didn't change to dry clothes at the club? Maybe they did this regularly and returned the towels later. If they had some of those towels at home BC could have used them for cleanup or for lining the car trunk. They could have been washed once at home (or not at all) and then brought back in a gym bag and added to the big baskets to get washed again.

Holes: He would have had to check in to bring the towels in. He would have had to carry the bag in (suspicious if he was supposed to be searching for his wife) Also, he had the girls with him, so he would have had to leave them in the car or bring them in with him.

All in all, seems risky for him, but in panic, maybe?

Wanted to bring this back since our discussion Skittles. You know this is possible and I don't think it has as many holes as you think. I don't think anyone would look at him odd if he were carrying a gym bag in, or even if he was observed putting the towels in the basket. All that actually seems fairly normal given it is a fitness club. The only hole would actually be the little ones - left in the car specifically. But it is possible a quick run in to return the towels - he might be able to do so quick enough so as to not draw a lot of attention by the kids being in the car. And really - he could invent an excuse for that even. He could even invent checking in to say he was looking for Nancy, if asked. Good thoughts.

Care to bring out your other idea ?

Skittles
08-17-2008, 12:32 PM
Thanks Skittles. Sounds like that front desk area gets pretty busy, yes? You've got people coming in, people going to/from the pool. It's grand central station, in a sense.


Oh, the entrance from the pool brings you to the into the indoor pool area, not the lobby. Sorry, didn't mean to give that impression. You had to have checked in already to be in the fenced outdoor pool area, though.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 12:38 PM
Yes excellent question. Wasn't it closer to 1pm on that Saturday? It seems he went there ahead of any visit to "Carey's condo/townhouse community." Now why would that be? He knew she couldn't get in; he knew she didn't have her LTF card on her. So why would that be a place he'd go to look at all, let alone instead of looking at more salient places like the nearby hospital, or a coffeeshop?

Thanks!

I had to go read BC's affidavit again.

Exactly!

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 12:41 PM
Skittles....you mentioned computers were there. So BC can use the computers at LTF? Girls in daycare, he gets on the computer, time passes...

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:42 PM
Oh, the entrance from the pool brings you to the into the indoor pool area, not the lobby. Sorry, didn't mean to give that impression. You had to have checked in already to be in the fenced outdoor pool area, though.

Are there any ways to exit out the LTF building that wouldn't set off an alarm (or be used solely as a fire exit)?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 12:42 PM
IMHO he wasn't really looking for NC, but was trying to extend the timeline of when she went missing. At that point he didn't know LE had already been contacted by JA. So in his mind he's got 24 hrs to figure stuff out. He's driving around for 2.5 HOURS! Think about that. Why was it so important he stay away from his house? Why in all his "searching" did he not look at any of those places that Mom lists? And WHERE was he looking then, if not any of those places? He had the kids in the car--he could NOT have gone off looking on the trails, with kids in tow.

WHAT WAS HE DOING during that time?

Until CPD called him at 3pm and told him to come back to his house, he had NO idea they were already involved. That must have been a huge "ruh roh" moment, no?


It takes a bit of time to wash a car, especially if there is a dirt buildup in the wheel wells and matts always take time - not 2.5 hours but at least a good 30 minutes minimum.

I'll be bold enough to say he was at LTF to get his wife's card swiped to show someone else had to have seen her alive after he said she left the house at 7 am. It was one of those stink days you know?

I know - droll :p

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:44 PM
Skittles....you mentioned computers were there. So BC can use the computers at LTF? Girls in daycare, he gets on the computer, time passes...

Ohhh interesting thought.

Is there any kind of check out procedure or anything in which LTF knows how long you've been there? I imagine there must be security cameras around the place since this is a state-of-the-art facility. Cameras would be positioned in many places, right? They'd have to have a security system in place. Video too?

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:46 PM
I'll be bold enough to say he was at LTF to get his wife's card swiped to show someone else had to have seen her alive after he said she left the house at 7 am. It was one of those stink days you know?

I know - droll :p

Yes, droll! And it wasn't JUST one of those 'stinky' days, it was one of those 'Hinky' days in addition! Something smells to high heaven, IMHO.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 12:46 PM
Hi, Momto3kids!

I've been really curious about this as well.

Since you were close enough to notice that there is a missing or broken bolt for his license tag on the sedan, did you happen to notice the stickers as well?

I'm just wondering if he kept the stickers current on the sedan he drove, unlike the stickers on the SUV.

Wow, I missed this Dogwood...
Actually didn't think of looking for the stickers. We were so shocked to see the license tag slanted it made us all take a gasp and point it out. It is just something you do not expect to see. I have never seen this before on any vehicle is why it caught our attention so quickly. Sorry didn't notice if there were or weren't stickers.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 12:52 PM
Wow, I missed this Dogwood...
Actually didn't think of looking for the stickers. We were so shocked to see the license tag slanted it made us all take a gasp and point it out. It is just something you do not expect to see. I have never seen this before on any vehicle is why it caught our attention so quickly. Sorry didn't notice if there were or weren't stickers.

I'm curious if anyone had seen his car or noticed this crooked/hanging license plate prior to 7/14? Is it crooked in any pics taken on 7/12? Are there any other pics of this particular car prior to 7/12? Any neighbors notice anything with that? And this is HIS car, which was always parked in the garage? Or did he sometimes keep it parked in the driveway?

Just the Fax
08-17-2008, 01:02 PM
I'm curious if anyone had seen his car or noticed this crooked/hanging license plate prior to 7/14? Is it crooked in any pics taken on 7/12? Are there any other pics of this particular car prior to 7/12? Any neighbors notice anything with that? And this is HIS car, which was always parked in the garage? Or did he sometimes keep it parked in the driveway?

Sorry I missed the discussion on the license plate.
Are y'all suggesting he removed the plate on the 325 so the
tag number would not be identified in the neighborhood he dumped the body ?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:06 PM
It takes a bit of time to wash a car, especially if there is a dirt buildup in the wheel wells and matts always take time - not 2.5 hours but at least a good 30 minutes minimum.

I'll be bold enough to say he was at LTF to get his wife's card swiped to show someone else had to have seen her alive after he said she left the house at 7 am. It was one of those stink days you know?

I know - droll :p

You're right RC...and this is exactly where I think the 3rd SW was for.

I have heard this is the scenario. This is most likely where he spent his hours between leaving home and getting called home by LE.

Skittles
08-17-2008, 01:06 PM
Skittles....you mentioned computers were there. So BC can use the computers at LTF? Girls in daycare, he gets on the computer, time passes...

The computers are in the daycare area, think it would look odd if he used them.

Bob&Bob
08-17-2008, 01:08 PM
Is there a picture of the crooked/hanging license tag?

jumpstreet
08-17-2008, 01:10 PM
Is there a picture of the crooked/hanging license tag?

... and if so, what was the phase of the moon when the photo was taken. :)

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:10 PM
Sorry I missed the discussion on the license plate.
Are y'all suggesting he removed the plate on the 325 so the
tag number would not be identified in the neighborhood he dumped the body ?

I personally saw the tag missing a bolt on the 27th. I do not know what happened for it to be this way, but it was very noticeable. If do not know if he lost it because he had removed it, or the LE lost it during the SW...I don't know. I wouldn't be 1 bit surprised if he removed it to do his running the morning of the 12th just to not be identified, returned home in a panic and couldn't find but 1 bolt. Car wash also if he used a pressure hand wash..take it off and the pressure washer knocked it off the ledge. Something happened to it and it is a very rare occurence IMO.

Skittles
08-17-2008, 01:10 PM
Ohhh interesting thought.

Is there any kind of check out procedure or anything in which LTF knows how long you've been there? I imagine there must be security cameras around the place since this is a state-of-the-art facility. Cameras would be positioned in many places, right? They'd have to have a security system in place. Video too?

There is no checkout procedure. You just open the lobby door. Other doors are emergency only, AFIK. Definitely cameras in the cafe (again, off that busy lobby). I haven't specifically looked around for other cameras, but there must be a lot of them, the place is huge.

Bob&Bob
08-17-2008, 01:11 PM
I personally saw the tag missing a bolt on the 27th. I do not know what happened for it to be this way, but it was very noticeable. If do not know if he lost it because he had removed it, or the LE lost it during the SW...I don't know. I wouldn't be 1 bit surprised if he removed it to do his running the morning of the 12th just to not be identified, returned home in a panic and couldn't find but 1 bolt. Car wash also if he used a pressure hand wash..take it off and the pressure washer knocked it off the ledge. Something happened to it and it is a very rare occurence IMO.

Where were you when you saw it?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=jumpstreet;2511676]... and if so, what was the phase of the moon when the photo was taken. :)[/QUOTE

No photo, but my eyes saw it. There is absolutely no denying what I saw with 30-40 feet between us.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:15 PM
Where were you when you saw it?
At the end of his driveway.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:22 PM
There is no checkout procedure. You just open the lobby door. Other doors are emergency only, AFIK. Definitely cameras in the cafe (again, off that busy lobby). I haven't specifically looked around for other cameras, but there must be a lot of them, the place is huge.

Have you heard anything at LTF about BC coming in on the 12th for any reason? I know it is a huge place. LTF is really IMO the place he ran to for so many reaons...including a place to keep the children occupied. How many kids at this age just sit still and ride around for 2.5 hours.

He could feed them there, put them in child care, used the computers, disposed of towels, he could be seen there on camera's as "trying" to locate NC and tried to place an alibi for NC last being there.

This is the RED FLAG place and where he IMO has made his biggest mistake.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 01:23 PM
Wow, I missed this Dogwood...
Actually didn't think of looking for the stickers. We were so shocked to see the license tag slanted it made us all take a gasp and point it out. It is just something you do not expect to see. I have never seen this before on any vehicle is why it caught our attention so quickly. Sorry didn't notice if there were or weren't stickers.

OK, thanks so much!

If you get another chance to see the sedan, would you mind looking for us? :Banane44:

Anything else to note about it besides the bolt missing that you recall?

DogWood
08-17-2008, 01:25 PM
It takes a bit of time to wash a car, especially if there is a dirt buildup in the wheel wells and matts always take time - not 2.5 hours but at least a good 30 minutes minimum.

I'll be bold enough to say he was at LTF to get his wife's card swiped to show someone else had to have seen her alive after he said she left the house at 7 am. It was one of those stink days you know?

I know - droll :p

:eek:

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:27 PM
OK, thanks so much!

If you get another chance to see the sedan, would you mind looking for us? :Banane44:

Anything else to note about it besides the bolt missing that you recall?

It's now fixed...:rolling:

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:28 PM
This is the RED FLAG place and where he IMO has made his biggest mistake.

A bigger mistake than an alleged 4:20am visit to HT?

Skittles
08-17-2008, 01:29 PM
Wanted to bring this back since our discussion Skittles. You know this is possible and I don't think it has as many holes as you think. I don't think anyone would look at him odd if he were carrying a gym bag in, or even if he was observed putting the towels in the basket. All that actually seems fairly normal given it is a fitness club. The only hole would actually be the little ones - left in the car specifically. But it is possible a quick run in to return the towels - he might be able to do so quick enough so as to not draw a lot of attention by the kids being in the car. And really - he could invent an excuse for that even. He could even invent checking in to say he was looking for Nancy, if asked. Good thoughts.

Care to bring out your other idea ?

Been working on this in bits and pieces all day.

OK, here's my other LTF possibility (although I think this one is even less likely than the towels as it is very, very risky). I've been considering ways to hide something in those lockers without getting caught. We've had posts here about the LTF lockers, and that you cannot keep stuff there. I don't know how they determine if a locker is just in use by someone who is in the building late at night. In fact they might not go through the lockers at all, but just tell you they do when you sign up for membership (see why this may be true in a minute).

Here's how the lockers work. When you go in there are keys in the locks. You open the locker, put your stuff in. Now, to get the key out you must put your ID in a slot on the back of the lock (inside the locker). Your id must stay there, or you can't lock the locker and get the key out. So, this effectively keeps people from leaving stuff in the lockers because you can't get back in the building if you leave stuff there--you have no ID! The other option is to leave stuff there unlocked. Or pretend you lost your ID and get another one so you can leave your old one in the lock. Note that the ID slots in the lockers are mechanical. They are not "scanned" or anything to be logged by a computer.

Now, if BC had both his and NC's IDs, he could leave, say NC's card in the locker. He would still be able to get back in the club with his id. Now, what if LTF doesn't open the locked lockers every night, but just relies on the fact that people need to get back in the building so they don't leave stuff there. Or what if they only check lockers if the same locker is in use night after night. In that case, BC could return to LTF and occasionally move the contents to a different locker (see holes, below). It's possible with all his IronMan training that he has been there at odd hours and might know how they handle checking for stuff left in the lockers.

Holes: Same holes as in my other post, plus more. Once he's being followed by LE, it's tough to keep going back to LTF to move stuff from locker to locker, so it's very bad for him if they do check the lockers nightly. Could have an accomplice, I guess, to move the stuff around or get it out of there entirely. The other thing is you cannot go in the Men's/Women's locker rooms while bringing children of
the opposite sex that you are. If you are a man bringing in girls you would need to use the family locker rooms. If you went in the family locker with 2 girls it would look odd if you immediately left the building. The family locker entrance is right off the lobby.

So, as I said, unlikely. It's much more likely he was trying to establish his whereabouts or trying to get Nancy "checked in."

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 01:31 PM
:eek:


Makes sense to me - he by his own admission thought he had to wait 24 hours to report Nancy missing - why not try to place her somewhere away from the home ? Especially after being questioned by JA as to Nancy's whereabouts. He told her Nancy went for a run - he knew if he didn't somehow correct that to prove Nancy was somewhere else he was in trouble. From his affidavits he seems big on records to prove everything - this was one record to create to show Nancy was alive after she left the house and was away from him specifically.

His problem - even though JA thought she had to wait 24 hours - she was gutsy enough to make the call anyway. Can you say Priceless ?

Skittles
08-17-2008, 01:34 PM
Have you heard anything at LTF about BC coming in on the 12th for any reason?

No, I'm definitely not on the LTF grapevine!

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 01:36 PM
A bigger mistake than an alleged 4:20am visit to HT?

IMO..yes. I would say the LE asked where he went looking and he told LTF, and they ask about the membership. LE discovers NC card isn't in her purse to gain entry. And she doesn't carry anything to jog...why her LTF ID? Bells are now going off IMO.

Of course HT is big, but at this time LE is real suspicious because of JA call to them.

Don't you know they asked him about WWMC, Java Jive, etc. By this time more than bells are ringing it is a full orchestra!!!

DogWood
08-17-2008, 01:37 PM
It's now fixed...:rolling:

:floorlaugh:

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 01:39 PM
I personally saw the tag missing a bolt on the 27th. I do not know what happened for it to be this way, but it was very noticeable. If do not know if he lost it because he had removed it, or the LE lost it during the SW...I don't know. I wouldn't be 1 bit surprised if he removed it to do his running the morning of the 12th just to not be identified, returned home in a panic and couldn't find but 1 bolt. Car wash also if he used a pressure hand wash..take it off and the pressure washer knocked it off the ledge. Something happened to it and it is a very rare occurence IMO.

Can I just interject something about all the bolt talk?

Car makers no longer use bolts on tags and haven't for years. It's typically a little short phillips head screw driven into a plastic grommet. Over a period of time the plastic part can dry rot but I don't think BC's BMW is old enough for that to happen unless it was exposed to extreme weather or a lot of salt.

That may not mean anything in the long run but it was on my mind so I thought I'd share it.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:39 PM
Makes sense to me - he by his own admission thought he had to wait 24 hours to report Nancy missing - why not try to place her somewhere away from the home ? Especially after being questioned by JA as to Nancy's whereabouts. He told her Nancy went for a run - he knew if he didn't somehow correct that to prove Nancy was somewhere else he was in trouble. From his affidavits he seems big on records to prove everything - this was one record to create to show Nancy was alive after she left the house and was away from him specifically.

His problem - even though JA thought she had to wait 24 hours - she was gutsy enough to make the call anyway. Can you say Priceless ?

It makes complete sense. I find it interesting he didn't think those panicked calls from JA would amount to anything, but I suppose he thought if he could show (via computer log at LTF) that she "checked in" then he could say she was there and was thus alive at 1pm that Saturday. However, does this guy not understand that there are video surveillance cameras EVERYWHERE these days? Everything he says can eventually be proven as truth or a lie. Even if he had successfully gotten her card scanned, if LE reviewed the video from that time period when the card was actually scanned, they would see Nancy was nowhere in sight AND they would see Brad standing right there at the front desk, no?

You know, for a 'brilliant' man, he's not terribly smart. The first mistake, IMHO, is actually thinking/believing you can ever get away with a crime when there are witnesses everywhere, cameras everywhere, and lots of smart people analyzing and thinking through every detail afterwards. Not too bright, IMHO.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 01:40 PM
Makes sense to me - he by his own admission thought he had to wait 24 hours to report Nancy missing - why not try to place her somewhere away from the home ? Especially after being questioned by JA as to Nancy's whereabouts. He told her Nancy went for a run - he knew if he didn't somehow correct that to prove Nancy was somewhere else he was in trouble. From his affidavits he seems big on records to prove everything - this was one record to create to show Nancy was alive after she left the house and was away from him specifically.

His problem - even though JA thought she had to wait 24 hours - she was gutsy enough to make the call anyway. Can you say Priceless ?

Priceless indeed!

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 01:43 PM
It makes complete sense. I find it interesting he didn't think those panicked calls from JA would amount to anything, but I suppose he thought if he could show (via computer log at LTF) that she "checked in" then he could say she was there and was thus alive at 1pm that Saturday. However, does this guy not understand that there are video surveillance cameras EVERYWHERE these days? Everything he says can eventually be proven as truth or a lie. Even if he had successfully gotten her card scanned, if LE reviewed the video from that time period when the card was actually scanned, they would see Nancy was nowhere in sight AND they would see Brad standing right there at the front desk, no?

You know, for a 'brilliant' man, he's not terribly smart. The first mistake, IMHO, is actually thinking/believing you can ever get away with a crime when there are witnesses everywhere, cameras everywhere, and lots of smart people analyzing and thinking through every detail afterwards. Not too bright, IMHO.

Brilliant ? I have seen nothing to indicate he is brilliant - those affidiavits he prepared for the custody hearing did not seem to be the words of a brilliant man to me. CCIE with an MBA or not - brilliant is not a word I can seem to attach to him. JMO

Bob&Bob
08-17-2008, 01:45 PM
At the end of his driveway.

What day and time was it?

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:45 PM
IMO..yes. I would say the LE asked where he went looking and he told LTF, and they ask about the membership. LE discovers NC card isn't in her purse to gain entry. And she doesn't carry anything to jog...why her LTF ID? Bells are now going off IMO.

Of course HT is big, but at this time LE is real suspicious because of JA call to them.

Don't you know they asked him about WWMC, Java Jive, etc. By this time more than bells are ringing it is a full orchestra!!!

IMHO JA is the key to everything he did after that first (or 2nd) phone call. She unknowingly set things in motion that day...perhaps things he was not exactly planning in quite that way. IF he was hanging out at LTF for say, longer than 30 min, then that is truly strange. Cause you'd only continue to hang out at a place your wife wasn't at during your search for her, if you wanted to not be at home. :twocents:

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 01:46 PM
Brilliant ? I have seen nothing to indicate he is brilliant - those affidiavits he prepared for the custody hearing did not seem to be the words of a brilliant man to me. CCIE with an MBA or not - brilliant is not a word I can seem to attach to him. JMO

There are a lot of educated idiots in this world. He seems to be one of them.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:48 PM
Brilliant ? I have seen nothing to indicate he is brilliant - those affidiavits he prepared for the custody hearing did not seem to be the words of a brilliant man to me. CCIE with an MBA or not - brilliant is not a word I can seem to attach to him. JMO

Maybe brilliant only in engineering; it appears every idiot needs it's savant! :wink:

jilly
08-17-2008, 01:48 PM
At my gym your profile comes up when they input your member #, but the staff doesn't necessarily 'closely' check to make sure you and your profile pic match. They hire a lot of young'uns to work there...age 16 - 20.

At my gym, half the time no one is at the desk when you swipe.:rolleyes:

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:55 PM
At my gym, half the time no one is at the desk when you swipe.:rolleyes:

Same at mine...in those cases they have a sign-in sheet in which you just write down your member #. It's a tiny no-frills gym though...just one big room. I know the main staff there and they know me by name.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 01:56 PM
There's always someone at the front desk at mine, and if by some fluke there isn't they will chase you down. I thought I was going to be literally tackled once. They really mean business about check-in.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:58 PM
IMO..yes. I would say the LE asked where he went looking and he told LTF, and they ask about the membership. LE discovers NC card isn't in her purse to gain entry. And she doesn't carry anything to jog...why her LTF ID? Bells are now going off IMO.

Of course HT is big, but at this time LE is real suspicious because of JA call to them.

Don't you know they asked him about WWMC, Java Jive, etc. By this time more than bells are ringing it is a full orchestra!!!

I would never underestimate the smarts and cleverness of a police detective. Some people might think of them as kind of 'nothing but dumb public servants,' but not me. And oftentimes their intuition is first-rate! I bet they asked a lot of questions that day...both in front of BC and then among themselves later.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 01:59 PM
There's always someone at the front desk at mine, and if by some fluke there isn't they will chase you down. I thought I was going to be literally tackled once. They really mean business about check-in. LOL! doG forbid someone gets in and exercises/sweats! :eek:

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 02:01 PM
Been working on this in bits and pieces all day.

OK, here's my other LTF possibility (although I think this one is even less likely than the towels as it is very, very risky). I've been considering ways to hide something in those lockers without getting caught. We've had posts here about the LTF lockers, and that you cannot keep stuff there. I don't know how they determine if a locker is just in use by someone who is in the building late at night. In fact they might not go through the lockers at all, but just tell you they do when you sign up for membership (see why this may be true in a minute).

Here's how the lockers work. When you go in there are keys in the locks. You open the locker, put your stuff in. Now, to get the key out you must put your ID in a slot on the back of the lock (inside the locker). Your id must stay there, or you can't lock the locker and get the key out. So, this effectively keeps people from leaving stuff in the lockers because you can't get back in the building if you leave stuff there--you have no ID! The other option is to leave stuff there unlocked. Or pretend you lost your ID and get another one so you can leave your old one in the lock. Note that the ID slots in the lockers are mechanical. They are not "scanned" or anything to be logged by a computer.

Now, if BC had both his and NC's IDs, he could leave, say NC's card in the locker. He would still be able to get back in the club with his id. Now, what if LTF doesn't open the locked lockers every night, but just relies on the fact that people need to get back in the building so they don't leave stuff there. Or what if they only check lockers if the same locker is in use night after night. In that case, BC could return to LTF and occasionally move the contents to a different locker (see holes, below). It's possible with all his IronMan training that he has been there at odd hours and might know how they handle checking for stuff left in the lockers.

Holes: Same holes as in my other post, plus more. Once he's being followed by LE, it's tough to keep going back to LTF to move stuff from locker to locker, so it's very bad for him if they do check the lockers nightly. Could have an accomplice, I guess, to move the stuff around or get it out of there entirely. The other thing is you cannot go in the Men's/Women's locker rooms while bringing children of
the opposite sex that you are. If you are a man bringing in girls you would need to use the family locker rooms. If you went in the family locker with 2 girls it would look odd if you immediately left the building. The family locker entrance is right off the lobby.

So, as I said, unlikely. It's much more likely he was trying to establish his whereabouts or trying to get Nancy "checked in."


Wow - thats quite a security set up they have.

Seems to me you may have just made a case for the "undisclosed location" :clap:

SleuthSayer
08-17-2008, 02:05 PM
You know, for a 'brilliant' man, he's not terribly smart.

Who described him as brilliant?

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 02:06 PM
Wow - thats quite a security set up they have.

Seems to me you may have just made a case for the "undisclosed location" :clap:

I still think the undisclosed location has something to do with SH.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 02:07 PM
Here's another thing I've often thought about (and mentioned before): here you have a good friend (perhaps a 'best' friend) who goes into FULL ON PANIC MODE when NC fails to show up within a 1-hr window of the time they were to get together.

Now I don't know JA at all; never heard of her before this case. I have friends who are occasionally late or occasionally get tied up doing something and our plans get shifted as a result. Things don't quite start on time (I'm a punctual person so this sometimes drives me crazy). But WHY would a friend go into PANIC MODE so quickly? UNLESS that friend was already fearful that something might happen to her friend...the friend who is in a very estranged rel'p...said rel'p having gone back into "hate mode," as mentioned by the wife the night before, at the party.

Friends don't usually go into this full on panic mode within a 3 hr timeframe. Unless said friend is like my 80 year old mother who is the Olympic Champion of Worrying (Guiness Book of World Records-level), something hit her that morning...her intuition was telling her DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!

She knew. In her GUT she knew. She probably wasn't even consciously aware of it but a certain knowledge or 'knowing' was given to her on a very unconcious level.

BTW, I had the same thing happen to me the day I found out my brother had been found dead. And there is no explanation for it that can be explained by our 5 basic senses.

christine2448
08-17-2008, 02:07 PM
Continue here. (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2511826#post2511826)