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christine2448
08-17-2008, 02:07 PM
Please continue GENERAL discussions here. Look around Nancy has her own forum (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=165), there are several threads started on specific topics to try and stay organized.


Links to previous and similar threads can be found toward the bottom of the page.


Newbies.....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/christine2448/WELCOMETOWSBLUE.gif

I am sad such a tragedy is bringing us all together.

I advise everyone to read the RULES of WS, Long (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66869)and Short Version (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66872).

Bob&Bob
08-17-2008, 02:16 PM
What was the time and day when you saw the crooked
license tag?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 02:17 PM
I agree RC...I absolutely do believe the 3rd SW was for LTF.
Card access, child care, computers, lockers....just too much @LTF to not check it out and see what ole Brad buddy was really doing there.

Skittles
08-17-2008, 02:18 PM
Wow - thats quite a security set up they have.

Seems to me you may have just made a case for the "undisclosed location"

RC:

Do you mean that if LE couldn't find Nancy's ID that would give them grounds for a warrant to search locked lockers at LTF?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 02:19 PM
What was the time and day when you saw the crooked
license tag?

Around 6 to 7 pm....

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 02:23 PM
I agree RC...I absolutely do believe the 3rd SW was for LTF.
Card access, child care, computers, lockers....just too much @LTF to not check it out and see what ole Brad buddy was really doing there.

Yes it does seem like this would be a logical 3rd place to search and they would need a warrant to do so. You have at least 2 factors:

1. Her LTF card is not in her possession
2. Her husband said he went to LTF

Smart to check things out there, esp. if there are a lot of "resources" he could use while there.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 02:24 PM
Skittles thank you so much for the wonderful insight to LTF. I have not joined, but my kids go quite a bit as a guest. It has really helped me to understand some things I had questions about. I do know that the employee's can't get by the desk without having their card swiped. I knew they were stringent with their rules.

This does show what a great organized fitness club this is.

I hope BC realizes this also and what he did at LTF will come back to haunt him IMO

DogWood
08-17-2008, 02:26 PM
In looking for a picture of the BMW sedan, I ran across these again. Note picture #11. They were all over the SUV, inside and out. Looks like test kits everywhere.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/photos/story/1142714.html

With regard to the sedan...There is a picture of it in the driveway here http://www.bluelineradio.com/news714.html about half-way down the page. Not only does the plate look straight in that picture, it appears to be trunk lid not the bumper part of the car. He should have noticed that any time he opened the trunk. Hmmm.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 02:29 PM
Another thing BC could have done and it appears he didn't...call SH to go to Johnson Lake and check for NC. SH practically lives across the street from the parking lot.

Did he call SH? NO

BC didn't want help he wanted to cover his butt and was backed up against the wall by JA.
PRICELESS as you say RC!

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 02:31 PM
I have not joined, but my kids go quite a bit as a guest. It has really helped me to understand some things I had questions about. I do know that the employee's can't get by the desk without having their card swiped. I knew they were stringent with their rules.

This does show what a great organized fitness club this is.


Hearing the description of the great facility and all they have there, it makes me wish I lived closer so I could join (it just wouldn't make sense for me). I'm available if anyone for any reason feels they need/want to bring a guest there!

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 02:34 PM
RC:

Do you mean that if LE couldn't find Nancy's ID that would give them grounds for a warrant to search locked lockers at LTF?

Could be a combination of reasons actually. For instance if it came to LE's attention that Brad went there on Saturday and used his own card in a time frame that he said he was looking for Nancy - LE would want to review the computer records and any surveillance video that may exist, they would be wondering why he checked in, if he did. The warrant would be necessary to check the computer records as that data is private information.

If Nancy's card was missing but it was found the card was swiped at LTF on that Saturday and Brad and several others say she ran with nothing - LE is going to research those records for that reason. If the records show she checked in - and no one has reported seeing her - chances are yes they are going to want to look in lockers to see if she left anything or if someone else did that is unaccounted for by someone.

To me the undisclosed location is a location LE does not want someone in paticular to know they are searching. To me that suggests it is not a residence for sure and definitely not a residence that would be known to a potential suspect. This pretty much leaves commercial facilities - LTF possibly, a storage unit possibly for examples. LTF would require a warrant because it is a private membership only facility - therefore the members have an expectation of privacy - warrant essential.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 02:35 PM
Yes it does seem like this would be a logical 3rd place to search and they would need a warrant to do so. You have at least 2 factors:

1. Her LTF card is not in her possession
2. Her husband said he went to LTF

Smart to check things out there, esp. if there are a lot of "resources" he could use while there.

My only question would be why they would wait until the 25th of July to search LTF? LE knew about his trip there pretty early on from his affidavit, if not sooner.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 02:35 PM
SleuthyGal SleuthyGal is online now
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 400
Here's another thing I've often thought about (and mentioned before): here you have a good friend (perhaps a 'best' friend) who goes into FULL ON PANIC MODE when NC fails to show up within a 1-hr window of the time they were to get together.

Now I don't know JA at all; never heard of her before this case. I have friends who are occasionally late or occasionally get tied up doing something and our plans get shifted as a result. Things don't quite start on time (I'm a punctual person so this sometimes drives me crazy). But WHY would a friend go into PANIC MODE so quickly? UNLESS that friend was already fearful that something might happen to her friend...the friend who is in a very estranged rel'p...said rel'p having gone back into "hate mode," as mentioned by the wife the night before, at the party.

Friends don't usually go into this full on panic mode within a 3 hr timeframe. Unless said friend is like my 80 year old mother who is the Olympic Champion of Worrying (Guiness Book of World Records-level), something hit her that morning...her intuition was telling her DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER!

She knew. In her GUT she knew. She probably wasn't even consciously aware of it but a certain knowledge or 'knowing' was given to her on a very unconcious level.

BTW, I had the same thing happen to me the day I found out my brother had been found dead. And there is no explanation for it that can be explained by our 5 basic senses.





I did that too SG!!! :eek:I totally understand what you're talking about.

My BIL was in the end stages of brain cancer (GBM), after fighting for 2+ years. I'd moved in with my sister to help care for him. Our mom lived less than a 1/2 mi. from my sister's house and would come over every day around noon and stayed 'til about 6 pm. Sometimes she'd be later if she went shopping, etc. Until one Friday she didn't arrive. By 12:30 I was calling her. I had a terrible feeling. At 1 pm I was in panic mode and my sister thought I was crazy. I jumped in the car and drove to her house and that's when I found her. She'd had a hemorrhagic stroke and died that night.

Yes, she could have been out at the grocery or any number of places but I knew, I just knew something had happened to her.

That may be exactly what happened with JA. She was sincerely distraught in that phone call.

Women's intuition or whatever you want to call it can be a strong signal that something is terribly wrong.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 02:38 PM
To me the undisclosed location is a location LE does not want someone in particular to know they are searching. To me that suggests it is not a residence for sure and definitely not a residence that would be known to a potential suspect.

So if LTF were the subject of that 3rd SW, then BC would NOT have been notified that LTF was being searched?

Is there a reason he would have been notified about the Cisco SW but not this 3rd location? Because Cisco is also a commercial facility, not owned by Brad.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 02:41 PM
So if LTF were the subject of that 3rd SW, then BC would NOT have been notified that LTF was being searched?

Is there a reason he would have been notified about the Cisco SW but not this 3rd location? Because Cisco is also a commercial facility, not owned by Brad.

I have to question that too. There's too many employees at LTF for that not to have hit the grapevine.

I'm sticking with the SH theory. They possibly wanted his DNA.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 02:42 PM
My only question would be why they would wait until the 25th of July to search LTF? LE knew about his trip there pretty early on from his affidavit, if not sooner.

Very good question.

My thought on this is there would have been no reason to check on Brad's story of where he went and what he did until they found and identified Nancy and ruled her death a homicide. The order of warrants that we "know" of seems to follow a progression - house - work place of husband - at this point it becomes apparent they are looking closely at him. Perhaps the delay was based on prioritizing the desired information.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 02:43 PM
In looking for a picture of the BMW sedan, I ran across these again. Note picture #11. They were all over the SUV, inside and out. Looks like test kits everywhere.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/photos/story/1142714.html

With regard to the sedan...There is a picture of it in the driveway here http://www.bluelineradio.com/news714.html about half-way down the page. Not only does the plate look straight in that picture, it appears to be trunk lid not the bumper part of the car. He should have noticed that any time he opened the trunk. Hmmm.

You are correct...the tag is on the trunk lid. I just checked a 325 and it is that way. Hmmm

Bob&Bob
08-17-2008, 02:44 PM
Why were you outside his driveway at 6-7 pm? By the way,
what day was it?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 02:45 PM
So if LTF were the subject of that 3rd SW, then BC would NOT have been notified that LTF was being searched?

Is there a reason he would have been notified about the Cisco SW but not this 3rd location? Because Cisco is also a commercial facility, not owned by Brad.

BC has no right to a copy of the Cisco search warrant - that belongs to Cisco alone as it is their property being searched. I doubt Brad was notified. The undisclosed location - unless that property belongs to BC - he would not be entitled to a copy of that warrant either and LE would not be required to notify him of that either.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 02:46 PM
Until one Friday she didn't arrive. By 12:30 I was calling her. I had a terrible feeling. At 1 pm I was in panic mode and my sister thought I was crazy. I jumped in the car and drove to her house and that's when I found her. She'd had a hemorrhagic stroke and died that night.

Ooooh I'm so sorry EntreNous. I'm so sad for your loss. Tragic. :frown:

In my case it was truly weird. My brother lived alone in PA. I of course lived in NC, my parents were in FL at the time. It was the day of my Bday and I was getting into my car to go meet friends for dinner. As I got in my car this loud voice (in my head) said for me to be "very careful and not let anything happen to me...some important news was coming." This voice was so loud and so insistent that I actually answered it out loud! I said, "Okay, okay I'll be careful! Look I'm putting on my seatbelt! I always put on my seatbelt!" BTW, I don't normally hear voices and I am perfectly sane. As I was driving to the resto I then thought of how I hadn't heard from my brother on my Bday...which was not unusual at all...he usually did not send a card, but for some reason I thought of him and not hearing from him.

3 hours later I found out my brother had been found dead in his bed...he was apparently found right at the time I was getting in my car to go to dinner. Heart attack. Had been dead for 2 days. When my parents couldn't get ahold of him they called the local police in his hometown who broke down his apt. door and found him. I knew none of this until hours later.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 02:50 PM
In looking for a picture of the BMW sedan, I ran across these again. Note picture #11. They were all over the SUV, inside and out. Looks like test kits everywhere.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/photos/story/1142714.html

With regard to the sedan...There is a picture of it in the driveway here http://www.bluelineradio.com/news714.html about half-way down the page. Not only does the plate look straight in that picture, it appears to be trunk lid not the bumper part of the car. He should have noticed that any time he opened the trunk. Hmmm.

CCBI is certainly picking over that SUV pretty good - even under it and taking photographs. Looks like they were definitely concerned about the X5. Thanks DogWood - very interesting.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 02:51 PM
BC has no right to a copy of the Cisco search warrant - that belongs to Cisco alone as it is their property being searched. I doubt Brad was notified. The undisclosed location - unless that property belongs to BC - he would not be entitled to a copy of that warrant either and LE would not be required to notify him of that either.

Raisin, why do you think LE let it be known that Cisco was the recipient of that 2nd SW and yet the 3rd SW is 'undisclosed?' Any ideas on that? It's not like the public doesn't know that BC is being looked at... :confused:

DogWood
08-17-2008, 02:52 PM
Very good question.

My thought on this is there would have been no reason to check on Brad's story of where he went and what he did until they found and identified Nancy and ruled her death a homicide. The order of warrants that we "know" of seems to follow a progression - house - work place of husband - at this point it becomes apparent they are looking closely at him. Perhaps the delay was based on prioritizing the desired information.

Good point. Thanks!

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 03:04 PM
Ooooh I'm so sorry EntreNous. I'm so sad for your loss. Tragic. :frown:

In my case it was truly weird. My brother lived alone in PA. I of course lived in NC, my parents were in FL at the time. It was the day of my Bday and I was getting into my car to go meet friends for dinner. As I got in my car this loud voice (in my head) said for me to be "very careful and not let anything happen to me...some important news was coming." This voice was so loud and so insistent that I actually answered it out loud! I said, "Okay, okay I'll be careful! Look I'm putting on my seatbelt! I always put on my seatbelt!" BTW, I don't normally hear voices and I am perfectly sane. As I was driving to the resto I then thought of how I hadn't heard from my brother on my Bday...which was not unusual at all...he usually did not send a card, but for some reason I thought of him and not hearing from him.

3 hours later I found out my brother had been found dead in his bed...he was apparently found right at the time I was getting in my car to go to dinner. Heart attack. Had been dead for 2 days. When my parents couldn't get ahold of him they called the local police in his hometown who broke down his apt. door and found him. I knew none of this until hours later.

Wow, I too am sorry for your loss SG.

It is strange, the alarms that can be set off by our senses when we somehow "know" something is way wrong. I have no doubt that one day we'll figure out how that works and how to harness that energy.

It kind of reminds me of the movie "Minority Report". They heavily researched the information in that film and what they used are actually things that leading scientists predict will be considered commonplace one day.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 03:09 PM
Raisin, why do you think LE let it be known that Cisco was the recipient of that 2nd SW and yet the 3rd SW is 'undisclosed?' Any ideas on that? It's not like the public doesn't know that BC is being looked at... :confused:


Someone with more experience than I with warrants could probably give you the correct answer or at least a better answer than I can. It could be on Nancy's Dr. for all we know or the children's Dr. just never know with Hippa laws, could be a good reason to not disclose the location.

Just my thought - they have a suspect and they do not want anyone, suspect and the public to know where they are going. With that said, this is why I do not believe that warrant was served on a residence. The person being served is not bound to keep the information secret and may discuss it if they wish. If this warrant was served on one of BC's friends I suspect they would have told him about it. If it was served on one of Nancy's friends, I think the grapevine is too strong to not have the information escape somwewhere.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 03:10 PM
It is strange, the alarms that can be set off by our senses when we somehow "know" something is way wrong. I have no doubt that one day we'll figure out how that works and how to harness that energy.

Thanks Entre. I believe that we humans have this intuition for a reason and that we get information and are 'connected' and eventually/hopefully we'll get more understanding of that in a scientific way rather than a faith-based way. There is no other explanation for how I got that 'message' that particular night and with such loud insistence.

One psychic I met once said to me, "how do you think mankind was able to survive and thrive from the beginning of time?" "Intuition, knowledge learned from not just the 5 senses; i.e. infused knowledge. Living beings could not have evolved/survived without it!"

I believe it.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 03:11 PM
CCBI is certainly picking over that SUV pretty good - even under it and taking photographs. Looks like they were definitely concerned about the X5. Thanks DogWood - very interesting.

YW! Yes, they sure were.

Can anyone tell what is laying on the driveway by the right front tire in photo #11?

DogWood
08-17-2008, 03:15 PM
I'm so sorry to hear about your brother, SleuthyGal.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 03:19 PM
YW! Yes, they sure were.

Can anyone tell what is laying on the driveway by the right front tire in photo #11?

I don't know if I'm looking at the same thing you are but it looks like some kind of measuring stick. It also looks like it's coming out on the other side, the left side.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 03:23 PM
I don't know if I'm looking at the same thing you are but it looks like some kind of measuring stick. It also looks like it's coming out on the other side, the left side.

What I'm looking at is in front of the yellow box on the driveway. It appears to be dark grey in color. Pretty big.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 03:27 PM
Thanks Dogwood!

OT Note to Self: find out where to get some of those booties LE investigators wear, so you can protect your shoes when walking in your wooded backyard filled with doggy landmines.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 03:29 PM
What I'm looking at is in front of the yellow box on the driveway. It appears to be dark grey in color. Pretty big.

It looks to me in that picture (#11) that it is sitting on top of the yellow box.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 03:34 PM
It looks to me in that picture (#11) that it is sitting on top of the yellow box.

I think you're right. Do you see the 'hump' in it just to the left of his right leg?

ETA: I guess I'm wondering if it could be the inside panel to the right rear passenger door?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 03:44 PM
OK...just found HT is where NC got prescriptions filled

Maybe 3rd SW is for HT pharmacy if it isn't for LTF

Star12
08-17-2008, 04:06 PM
I think you're right. Do you see the 'hump' in it just to the left of his right leg?

ETA: I guess I'm wondering if it could be the inside panel to the right rear passenger door?

Huh. to me it looked like ...IDK whatcha call it, but like a cord that would go on a trouble light. Some sort of heavy-duty electrical cord.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 04:08 PM
OK...just found HT is where NC got prescriptions filled

Maybe 3rd SW is for HT pharmacy if it isn't for LTF

Interact maybe?

Bob&Bob
08-17-2008, 04:10 PM
OK...just found HT is where NC got prescriptions filled

Maybe 3rd SW is for HT pharmacy if it isn't for LTF


Amyway, why were you outside the driveway at 6-7 pm?

Star12
08-17-2008, 04:10 PM
Interact maybe?

nah, don't think so. That would be a subpoena, which they already did. Brad wouldn't have been there, and Nancy wasn't there. No need for a SW.

Bob&Bob
08-17-2008, 04:11 PM
Oh I guess she's gone :(

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 04:13 PM
nah, don't think so. That would be a subpoena, which they already did. Brad wouldn't have been there, and Nancy wasn't there. No need for a SW.


The subpeona was for the civil case - nothing to do with the criminal case.

It is possible Nancy corresponded with someone on a crisis hotline there or even went to talk to see what options may exist.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 04:18 PM
Huh. to me it looked like ...IDK whatcha call it, but like a cord that would go on a trouble light. Some sort of heavy-duty electrical cord.

Sure wish that LE officer would move out of the way! :floorlaugh:

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 04:21 PM
I think you're right. Do you see the 'hump' in it just to the left of his right leg?

ETA: I guess I'm wondering if it could be the inside panel to the right rear passenger door?

I don't think it's the right rear passenger door panel because that door is open and you can see the panel. You can see the speaker cover portion of it very clearly. Those panels come in one piece so with all due respect I don't think that's very likely.

The yellow box looks like a tool box with the lid open and I think what we're seeing is only a portion of the object or objects as the remaining unseen parts are actually inside the box. Also note that the greenish lump that you see just in front of the officers left shin is not completely solid as you can see the white stick through it.

JMO (just my observation) ;)

Star12
08-17-2008, 04:26 PM
The subpeona was for the civil case - nothing to do with the criminal case.

It is possible Nancy corresponded with someone on a crisis hotline there or even went to talk to see what options may exist.

RC, that's possible, but for records it would be a subpeona duces tecum, not a SW. There would be no need for LE to go to Interact and search for evidence.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 04:27 PM
I don't think it's the right rear passenger door panel because that door is open and you can see the panel. You can see the speaker cover portion of it very clearly. Those panels come in one piece so with all due respect I don't think that's very likely.

The yellow box looks like a tool box with the lid open and I think what we're seeing is only a portion of the object or objects as the remaining unseen parts are actually inside the box. Also note that the greenish lump that you see just in front of the officers left shin is not completely solid as you can see the white stick through it.

JMO (just my observation) ;)

You must have a great monitor!

Note to self: Get a new monitor.

Thanks!

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 04:30 PM
RC, that's possible, but for records it would be a subpeona duces tecum, not a SW. There would be no need for LE to go to Interact and search for evidence.

Not sure I buy that. :cool:

Star12
08-17-2008, 04:31 PM
I don't think it's the right rear passenger door panel because that door is open and you can see the panel. You can see the speaker cover portion of it very clearly. Those panels come in one piece so with all due respect I don't think that's very likely.

The yellow box looks like a tool box with the lid open and I think what we're seeing is only a portion of the object or objects as the remaining unseen parts are actually inside the box. Also note that the greenish lump that you see just in front of the officers left shin is not completely solid as you can see the white stick through it.

JMO (just my observation) ;)

I think that "white stick" actually is the sunny part which is bounded on the top by a thin shadow, and on the bottom by more shadow. Looks like the shadows are caused by the opened doors of the SUV.

Star12
08-17-2008, 04:34 PM
Not sure I buy that. :cool:

Why not? AFAIK, Clients usually do not go the the office. They would go to the shelter. My initial contacts with them was by telephone, and after several calls they convinced me that I needed to come in, and they told me to go to the shelter.

A SW has a different function than a sdt.

I've typed up plenty of both.

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 04:38 PM
I think that "white stick" actually is the sunny part which is bounded on the top by a thin shadow, and on the bottom by more shadow. Looks like the shadows are caused by the opened doors of the SUV.

Star 12, if you look at the whole picture again you can see a white stick laying on the driveway under the X5 that juts out the left and right sides. If you look very closely you can just make out hash marks for measuring on the left side of it. You can also see that it runs under the vehicle.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 04:38 PM
Why not? AFAIK, Clients usually do not go the the office. They would go to the shelter. My initial contacts with them was by telephone, and after several calls they convinced me that I needed to come in, and they told me to go to the shelter.

A SW has a different function than a sdt.

I've typed up plenty of both.

I realize they are different - but a warrant is still necessary to obtain documentation relating to phone calls, especially if they are taped and the matter is related to a criminal case, not civil.

maconrich
08-17-2008, 05:00 PM
I realize they are different - but a warrant is still necessary to obtain documentation relating to phone calls, especially if they are taped and the matter is related to a criminal case, not civil.

hmmmm... I'm not sure about phone records or to be honest what the laws are in North Carolina about this. But at the shelter I worked at (in a different state) it was done with a subpoena which included either the administrator or a case worker along with the client's file (and we made note of all phone calls etc so that info would have been in the file *if* the person was a client - instead of someone just calling for information). If they'd put in an application a note would have been made on that, but if not and it was a more general call there wouldn't have been any physical records kept by the facility. (I worked at a transitional housing facility for homeless families, and did work with local agencies including those for domestic abuse, but I'm sure our policies were different than those of places like the abuse shelters)

ETA - HOWever if NC ever stayed at a shelter - even for one night - they would have a file on her!!

ncnative
08-17-2008, 05:07 PM
Was anyone living in Cary way back when a couple who were divorcing went to meet each other at the lawyer's office on Walnut Street (directly across from Cary HS) and the husband had come into the office with a bomb strapped onto himself. The bomb went off in the lawyer's office. It was Tom Earls' office. He's still a lawyer, now lives in Raleigh. I can't remember what happened to the two who were divorcing. It was awful. I guess it was in the late 1970s or very early 1980s. Earls was our lawyer for a real estate transaction several times. He told me that he was no longer "doing divorces". :D

I know. That has nothing to do with anything. Except that it happened in "safe, uptopian" Cary. Hmpfh.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 05:31 PM
Looking at the pictures on the N&O site with the crime scene tape, vehicles being searched, etc. The date says the 16th, but it says Tuesday. The 16th was Wednesday. I do believe some were taken on Tuesday since it says once NC was identified tape is put up.
Is it me or are these dates mixed and some should state the 15th and other the 16th?

#34 with BC leaving the house....doesn't he look like someone beside himself in grief who just found it was his wife's body that was found??

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 05:32 PM
People sometimes go absolutely ape---- during divorces.

Star12
08-17-2008, 06:06 PM
Looking at the pictures on the N&O site with the crime scene tape, vehicles being searched, etc. The date says the 16th, but it says Tuesday. The 16th was Wednesday. I do believe some were taken on Tuesday since it says once NC was identified tape is put up.
Is it me or are these dates mixed and some should state the 15th and other the 16th?

#34 with BC leaving the house....doesn't he look like someone beside himself in grief who just found it was his wife's body that was found??

Uh... an 'oh chit' moment, but don't see any grief

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 06:15 PM
Uh... an 'oh chit' moment, but don't see any grief
Is it me or has there just been NO emotion on the part of BC at all at the news conference or this photo?
Again a long sleeve shirt...

EntreNous
08-17-2008, 06:20 PM
I think I've seen emotion from him when he did speak at that one presser but I think what I saw was fear and later that look of seething hatred on his face as reporters were asking questions of Chief Bazemore.

We've certainly not seen a look of anything since NC's body was discovered.

wirehair
08-17-2008, 06:25 PM
When BC went to LTF he could have had both cards and said something like my wife will be in here in a minute, she's getting the kids out and one is asleep... or he could have used his wife's card saying he used her car instead and his card is in his car. He could have told them that they could see on the profile that they had a family membership, showed them his ID hoping they wouldn't remember the transaction.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 06:35 PM
When BC went to LTF he could have had both cards and said something like my wife will be in here in a minute, she's getting the kids out and one is asleep... or he could have used his wife's card saying he used her car instead and his card is in his car. He could have told them that they could see on the profile that they had a family membership, showed them his ID hoping they wouldn't remember the transaction.

yeah...thereby providing BC an alibi, "oh, NC was at the gym while i was at ,,," but he HAD to know LE would check that out. i mean, there are a lot of cameras outside that building keeping watch over the parking lot and entrance area! :eek:

IMO and, of course, presuming BC did, as JA stated, kill NC.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 07:25 PM
I think I've seen emotion from him when he did speak at that one presser but I think what I saw was fear and later that look of seething hatred on his face as reporters were asking questions of Chief Bazemore.

We've certainly not seen a look of anything since NC's body was discovered.

I actually thought Chief Bazemore had more emotion when she made the announcement confirming it was NC who had been identified.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 07:52 PM
yeah...thereby providing BC an alibi, "oh, NC was at the gym while i was at ,,," but he HAD to know LE would check that out. i mean, there are a lot of cameras outside that building keeping watch over the parking lot and entrance area! :eek:

IMO and, of course, presuming BC did, as JA stated, kill NC.

Zoe - if you know is the Lochmere Swim & Tennis Club also a private, members only, club ?

ncnative
08-17-2008, 07:56 PM
RC, you have to pay to belong! There's a pool and tennis courts. I haven't been there since 1993. We don't belong any more because the kids grew up, and we never went there much anyway. (you have to pay even if you live in Lochmere, I meant to say)

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 07:57 PM
RC...it is a private membership. You don't have to live in Lochmere to join but have to be a member to gain access or be with someone who is a member.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 07:59 PM
RC, you have to pay to belong! There's a pool and tennis courts. I haven't been there since 1993. We don't belong any more because the kids grew up, and we never went there much anyway.

Thanks. Just wondering since Brad references he has a set time for a tennis match and he had to call to cancel it if maybe it was scheduled there. Seems like public facilities are usually first come first serve maybe?

Zoe
08-17-2008, 07:59 PM
Zoe - if you know is the Lochmere Swim & Tennis Club also a private, members only, club ?

hey, raisincharlie -
yes, it looks like it is membership only -- here's the link for the lowdown on lochmere swim & tennis club -> http://www.lochmere.org/pages/index.cfm?siteid=5086

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 07:59 PM
RC, you have to pay to belong! There's a pool and tennis courts. I haven't been there since 1993. We don't belong any more because the kids grew up, and we never went there much anyway. (you have to pay even if you live in Lochmere, I meant to say)

Do you think they are feeling an impact from LTF? I know we received flyers or mailings the beginning of summer trying to get us to join

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 08:00 PM
hey, raisincharlie -
yes, it looks like it is membership only -- here's the link for the lowdown on lochmere swim & tennis club -> http://www.lochmere.org/pages/index.cfm?siteid=5086


Thank you ! Will check it out.

ncnative
08-17-2008, 08:05 PM
Mom, I think everyone is feeling the impact of the LTF. (The smaller fitness centers, wellness centers, yoga places, etc.). I'm sure that the fees for LTF will keep some folks from joining it.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 08:13 PM
Mom, I think everyone is feeling the impact of the LTF. (The smaller fitness centers, wellness centers, yoga places, etc.). I'm sure that the fees for LTF will keep some folks from joining it.

I think some will always go to the neighborhood pools since they have friends there and their kids friends will also be there. The one thing is many of the subdivisons around here have swim teams and it will be active with those meets.
I just noticed this year how many places tried to get us to join...

I bet Anytime fitness next to Food Lion is really feeling it also.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 08:19 PM
When BC went to LTF he could have had both cards and said something like my wife will be in here in a minute, she's getting the kids out and one is asleep... or he could have used his wife's card saying he used her car instead and his card is in his car. He could have told them that they could see on the profile that they had a family membership, showed them his ID hoping they wouldn't remember the transaction.

You have pretty much said what I think has happened. LTF is IMO a place he didn't need to check out before Java Jive, WWMC & Hemlock Bluffs. He had intentions going to LTF and it wasn't looking for NC.:mad:

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 08:22 PM
hey, raisincharlie -
yes, it looks like it is membership only -- here's the link for the lowdown on lochmere swim & tennis club -> http://www.lochmere.org/pages/index.cfm?siteid=5086

Zoe,

I noticed your post in the meet up thread about your drive through of the area at a time fairly close to 7am and caught that you saw 5 LEOs near the Swim & Tennis Club.

Of course I have questions :p

The swim/tennis club is pretty much right at the intersection of Lily Atkins and Lochmere Drive - yes ? Lily Atkins from there would run to the east-southeast toward Holly Springs Road - yes ? At the location where Lily Atkins intersects Holly Springs Road - Nancy was found almost straight across from this intersection or at least in almost the same line ( maybe a bit south) - yes ?

Forgive me - this is easy for you all to visualize - not so much for bubba here. Is that fairly reasonable in terms of locations?

Zoe
08-17-2008, 08:34 PM
Zoe,

I noticed your post in the meet up thread about your drive through of the area at a time fairly close to 7am and caught that you saw 5 LEOs near the Swim & Tennis Club.

Of course I have questions :p

The swim/tennis club is pretty much right at the intersection of Lily Atkins and Lochmere Drive - yes ? Lily Atkins from there would run to the east-southeast toward Holly Springs Road - yes ? At the location where Lily Atkins intersects Holly Springs Road - Nancy was found almost straight across from this intersection or at least in almost the same line ( maybe a bit south) - yes ?

Forgive me - this is easy for you all to visualize - not so much for bubba here. Is that fairly reasonable in terms of locations?

yes, it is. realizing, of course, that one has to turn left onto holly springs road from lily atkins road, then right on fielding drive and travel back to the cul-de-sac area where NC was found. but, your description in terms of straight across and a little south is accurate when looking at a map.

ETA - here's a drawing of the area from the local newspaper -- http://media.newsobserver.com/content/news/crime_safety/story_graphics/20080716_cooperbody.jpg

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 08:44 PM
yes, it is. realizing, of course, that one has to turn left onto holly springs road from lily atkins road, then right on fielding drive and travel back to the cul-de-sac area where NC was found. but, your description in terms of straight across and a little south is accurate when looking at a map.


Thank you Zoe ! Just have to get a picture in my head. This swim/tennis club is a bit east and south of Lochmere Lake as well and probably pretty much near the center of the search area if i have this in my head right. So if one draws a line kinda southwest a tad from Walsburg Court to the swim/tennis club and then another line east- southeast from the swim/tennis club to the recovery location one has basically a 90 degree angle formed at the swim/tennis club.

I'm just trying to figure what the LEOs were up to at that time of the morning by picturing these locations. Appreciate your help very much.

:clap:


Just saw the drawing - that helps too - again thanks !

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 08:52 PM
Zoe if you don't mind can I ask you some more about your trip ? Am fascinated by your descriptions.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Thank you Zoe ! Just have to get a picture in my head. This swim/tennis club is a bit east and south of Lochmere Lake as well and probably pretty much near the center of the search area if i have this in my head right. So if one draws a line kinda southwest a tad from Walsburg Court to the swim/tennis club and then another line east- southeast from the swim/tennis club to the recovery location one has basically a 90 degree angle formed at the swim/tennis club.

I'm just trying to figure what the LEOs were up to at that time of the morning by picturing these locations. Appreciate your help very much.

:clap:



Just saw the drawing - that helps too - again thanks !

YW !
i had wondered if anyone in that immediate area saw what was going on later that morning. i was thinking they might have been getting ready to stop cars and pedestrians to ask, one more time, about the morning NC allegedly went missing. dunno, tho'.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 08:55 PM
Zoe if you don't mind can I ask you some more about your trip ? Am fascinated by your descriptions.

ask away!

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 08:59 PM
ask away!

Great - if i get on your nerves just tell me to buzz off - all is good !

I noticed you turned off Holly Springs Rd onto Fielding and went down to the recovery site.

First - do you have an estimated time for how long it took you to drive from HS Rd to the recovery site and is Fielding pretty clean as you get close to the site ?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 09:01 PM
Thanks Dogwood!

OT Note to Self: find out where to get some of those booties LE investigators wear, so you can protect your shoes when walking in your wooded backyard filled with doggy landmines.

SG...I meant to tell you the booties are surgical booties. I am not sure where you can buy them...I know new homes have them at the front doors to walk thru.

They even have them up to the knees....:eek: I just hope it doesn't get that deep where you are walking.:floorlaugh:

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 09:04 PM
SG...I meant to tell you the booties are surgical booties. I am not sure where you can buy them...I know new homes have them at the front doors to walk thru.

Yes I realized that after I posted. You can order just about ANYTHING online!


They even have them up to the knees....:eek: I just hope it doesn't get that deep where you are walking.:floorlaugh:

OMG bwah!! Let's hope not! In the TMI dept I feed my girlie-dog lots of carrots and ummm...yeah...use your imagination. :blushing:

Zoe
08-17-2008, 09:08 PM
Great - if i get on your nerves just tell me to buzz off - all is good !

I noticed you turned off Holly Springs Rd onto Fielding and went down to the recovery site.

First - do you have an estimated time for how long it took you to drive from HS Rd to the recovery site and is Fielding pretty clean as you get close to the site ?

maybe 3 minutes or so? i was driving rather slow trying to see if i could see folks up and about in their houses! and, yes, it's clean back there -- no obstacles in the road. the cul-de-sac just past the one where NC was found, the lots have been cleared out/cleaned up -- no construction back there yet as of that time, just clearing the trees out of the way.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 09:11 PM
maybe 3 minutes or so? i was driving rather slow trying to see if i could see folks up and about in their houses! and, yes, it's clean back there -- no obstacles in the road. the cul-de-sac just past the one where NC was found, the lots have been cleared out/cleaned up -- no construction back there yet as of that time, just clearing the trees out of the way.

Okay - 3 minutes at a slow pace.

When you came out - you went left on HS RD to Lily Atkins - right up to Lochmere Drive by the swim/tennis club. Do you recall about how long that took ?


And where you encountered vehicular traffic were some colored cars easier to see at distance than others given the lighting at that time if you recall ?

carolinalady
08-17-2008, 09:22 PM
OK, here's my thoughts about Lifetime Fitness trip:

1) If he didn't murder Nancy, he's out looking around her normal running routes and is very close to LTF, he, on a whim, decides to stop in there to see if they have seen her.

2) If he did murder Nancy, he could've been driving around like he said "looking" for her, spots LTF and decides it would be a good place that he could be seen looking for her (on camera, person to person, just so someone could actually verify he was out looking).

I don't think he went there to check her in to make it appear she was there. I would imagine that there would be too much activity in LTF for him to be putting evidence in lockers. I would also think that attempting to dump any evidence in a dumpster at that time of day would be too visible.

I've never been to LTF so I can't attest to how crowded it would be on a Saturday afternoon. I do know that the gym I belong to has a pretty steady stream of people on Saturdays.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 09:24 PM
Okay - 3 minutes at a slow pace.

When you came out - you went left on HS RD to Lily Atkins - right up to Lochmere Drive by the swim/tennis club. Do you recall about how long that took ?


And where you encountered vehicular traffic were some colored cars easier to see at distance than others given the lighting at that time if you recall ?

the trip to the swim/tennis club, once i turned onto holly springs road, just under 2 minutes.
i can't really answer that second question about the cars b/c part of my job is recognizing things such as vehicles, people, my surroundings!! now, having said that and sitting here thinking back to that time of morning, i have to believe i would notice, say, a red car right away whereas a white car might be less noticeable at that time of day. but i would be hyper aware on holly springs road if i was on foot on that road in that area.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 09:28 PM
OK, here's my thoughts about Lifetime Fitness trip:

1) If he didn't murder Nancy, he's out looking around her normal running routes and is very close to LTF, he, on a whim, decides to stop in there to see if they have seen her.

2) If he did murder Nancy, he could've been driving around like he said "looking" for her, spots LTF and decides it would be a good place that he could be seen looking for her (on camera, person to person, just so someone could actually verify he was out looking).

I don't think he went there to check her in to make it appear she was there. I would imagine that there would be too much activity in LTF for him to be putting evidence in lockers. I would also think that attempting to dump any evidence in a dumpster at that time of day would be too visible.

I've never been to LTF so I can't attest to how crowded it would be on a Saturday afternoon. I do know that the gym I belong to has a pretty steady stream of people on Saturdays.


LTF has a "run club" that meets at 8am on saturdays. there has been no mention whatsoever about NC being in that club and i'm sure if she was, we would have heard that from BC, or one of her running buddies.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 09:32 PM
the trip to the swim/tennis club, once i turned onto holly springs road, just under 2 minutes.
i can't really answer that second question about the cars b/c part of my job is recognizing things such as vehicles, people, my surroundings!! now, having said that and sitting here thinking back to that time of morning, i have to believe i would notice, say, a red car right away whereas a white car might be less noticeable at that time of day. but i would be hyper aware on holly springs road if i was on foot on that road in that area.

I am very glad you notice things ! Its great - very helpful. I'm wondering about color because, well obviously, we have a white car and a silver SUV to study on. I think either white of silver would not be as noticable as other colors as well.

So we now have (putting these on the map you linked)

3 minutes to the recovery site from HS RD/Fielding
2 minutes from HS RD/Fielding to Lily Atkins/Lochmere Drive


You may have to help here a bit but you said you drove from Walsburg Court to Cary Parkway to HS Rd.

So of course the next question is if you know about how long it may have taken from Walsburg Court to the turn off on Fielding ?

carolinalady
08-17-2008, 09:32 PM
LTF has a "run club" that meets at 8am on saturdays. there has been no mention whatsoever about NC being in that club and i'm sure if she was, we would have heard that from BC, or one of her running buddies.

Interesting. I agree that BC would've certainly mentioned that if she was in that club. I'm not sure JA would have in her affidavit as her portion regarding Saturday morning was focused on what BC told her. I'm sure if she was involved w/ the run club, JA would've mentioned it to LE though.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 09:36 PM
OK, here's my thoughts about Lifetime Fitness trip:

1) If he didn't murder Nancy, he's out looking around her normal running routes and is very close to LTF, he, on a whim, decides to stop in there to see if they have seen her.

2) If he did murder Nancy, he could've been driving around like he said "looking" for her, spots LTF and decides it would be a good place that he could be seen looking for her (on camera, person to person, just so someone could actually verify he was out looking).

I don't think he went there to check her in to make it appear she was there. I would imagine that there would be too much activity in LTF for him to be putting evidence in lockers. I would also think that attempting to dump any evidence in a dumpster at that time of day would be too visible.

I've never been to LTF so I can't attest to how crowded it would be on a Saturday afternoon. I do know that the gym I belong to has a pretty steady stream of people on Saturdays.

Drive around for 2.5 hours in a few parking lots?

He went to LTF for a purpose and 1 thing in mind.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 09:37 PM
I am very glad you notice things ! Its great - very helpful. I'm wondering about color because, well obviously, we have a white car and a silver SUV to study on. I think either white of silver would not be as noticable as other colors as well.

So we now have (putting these on the map you linked)

3 minutes to the recovery site from HS RD/Fielding
2 minutes from HS RD/Fielding to Lily Atkins/Lochmere Drive


You may have to help here a bit but you said you drove from Walsburg Court to Cary Parkway to HS Rd.

So of course the next question is if you know about how long it may have taken from Walsburg Court to the turn off on Fielding ?


from wallsburg to the turn onto fielding, i'm thinking 4 minutes. and, you're right - the white and silver would likely be less noticeable.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 09:40 PM
from wallsburg to the turn onto fielding, i'm thinking 4 minutes. and, you're right - the white and silver would likely be less noticeable.

You see right where I'm going with this I know you do.

From your description you turn off Tyron Road then mention driving down Lochmere - now I'm kind of lost as to what your route is but note the time as 6:45. Did you happen to come down Kildare Farm Road to Lochmere or ? help:cool:

Zoe
08-17-2008, 09:42 PM
You see right where I'm going with this I know you do.

From your description you turn off Tyron Road then mention driving down Lochmere - now I'm kind of lost as to what your route is but note the time as 6:45. Did you happen to come down Kildare Farm Road to Lochmere or ? help:cool:

kildaire farm to lochmere it was!!

carolinalady
08-17-2008, 09:42 PM
Drive around for 2.5 hours in a few parking lots?

He went to LTF for a purpose and 1 thing in mind.

If he did kill Nancy, I can buy that he was driving around 2.5 hours trying to buy time and decide his gameplan. How many people are at LTF on a Saturday between 1-3pm? I really do think too many people would "see" him if he was
trying to dispose of evidence. And, trying to check Nancy in then would be a moot point b/c she's already missing (at a minimum, JA and Hannah Prichard have talked to him). He can't back up the check-in time.

ncnative
08-17-2008, 09:44 PM
Zoe, accounting for the stoplight at Cary Pkwy/Lochmere Dr., and the one at Cary Pkwy./Holly Springs Road, but your 4 min. is a good guess.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 09:45 PM
kildaire farm to lochmere it was!!

Okay - you rock !!!

So you had to have passed HT - turned left onto Lochmere and buzzed across Lochmere to catch Walsburg - yes ?

and of course - any idea about the time from Kildaire/tyron to Lochmere/Lily Atkins

and Lily Atkins to Walsburg ?

or total time Kildaire to Lochmere to Walsburg?

CyberPro
08-17-2008, 09:46 PM
[QUOTE=EntreNous;2511919
Women's intuition or whatever you want to call it can be a strong signal that something is terribly wrong.[/QUOTE]

Snipped for length.

Yup, but Women's intuition is not limited to women!

I have had 2x instances where someone close to me died, and I knew it before I was told. Once, I am pretty sure I knew it before it happened, but since I am not sure exactly what the TOD was, I cannot know for sure.

Once, my wife was in a car accident, and I knew it when it happened, and knew it was her. I was on a volunteer EMS unit at the time, and I was on-call that Sunday. As soon as the pagers went off, I knew it was her. My logical side kept telling me she should have driven past that point, but I knew it nevertheless. I had to go to the scene of the accident and treat her. The accident was not her fault, it was very serious, and totalled the car, but she was not severly injured.

CyberPro

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 09:51 PM
If he did kill Nancy, I can buy that he was driving around 2.5 hours trying to buy time and decide his gameplan. How many people are at LTF on a Saturday between 1-3pm? I really do think too many people would "see" him if he was
trying to dispose of evidence. And, trying to check Nancy in then would be a moot point b/c she's already missing (at a minimum, JA and Hannah Prichard have talked to him). He can't back up the check-in time.

Other reasons for going to LTF then to dispose of evidence...eed the kids, put them into the child care, use the computer.

He went to Carey's last. He never went to Java Jive....where she is to go all the time and he used as a possible place she was that morning. He had to drive right past it to leave Lochmere.

IMO, he left with a mission and it was to get to LTF for his alibi.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 09:53 PM
Okay - you rock !!!

So you had to have passed HT - turned left onto Lochmere and buzzed across Lochmere to catch Walsburg - yes ?

and of course - any idea about the time from Kildaire/tyron to Lochmere/Lily Atkins

and Lily Atkins to Walsburg ?

or total time Kildaire to Lochmere to Walsburg?

once you turn off kildaire farm road onto lochmere, i'm guessing at this point it's about a 5, maybe 6 minute drive to wallsburg. again, i was driving rather slow looking around at houses and glancing down other roads i was passing.

CyberPro
08-17-2008, 10:00 PM
OK, here's my thoughts about Lifetime Fitness trip:

1) If he didn't murder Nancy, he's out looking around her normal running routes and is very close to LTF, he, on a whim, decides to stop in there to see if they have seen her.

2) If he did murder Nancy, he could've been driving around like he said "looking" for her, spots LTF and decides it would be a good place that he could be seen looking for her (on camera, person to person, just so someone could actually verify he was out looking).

I don't think he went there to check her in to make it appear she was there. I would imagine that there would be too much activity in LTF for him to be putting evidence in lockers. I would also think that attempting to dump any evidence in a dumpster at that time of day would be too visible.

I've never been to LTF so I can't attest to how crowded it would be on a Saturday afternoon. I do know that the gym I belong to has a pretty steady stream of people on Saturdays.

LTF is a BUSY place almost every day. Sundays seem to be a bit less busy, but I am somewhat crowd-averse, so I usually go later than 10PM. I do sometimes take the kids there during the afternoon or evening, but I do not care to work-out when it is really hopping. It is busy from morning until around 10PM, and even after that, there are around 20 folks in there, roughly counting. This place is so huge that only having 20 in there feels like having your own private club.

CyberPro

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:02 PM
once you turn off kildaire farm road onto lochmere, i'm guessing at this point it's about a 5, maybe 6 minute drive to wallsburg. again, i was driving rather slow looking around at houses and glancing down other roads i was passing.

This is great so from Kildaire/Lochmere to Walsburg is 6 minutes - slow is good - means it could be done quicker. From looking at the map - seems that Lochmere/Lily Atkins is about mid way between Kildaire/Lochmere to Wlasburg - does that seem reasonable - 3 minutes either way from Lochmere/Lily Atkins ?


So now we have:
4 minutes from Walsburg Court to HS Rd/Fielding
3 minutes to the recovery site from HS RD/Fielding
3 minutes from recovery site to HS RD/ Fielding
2 minutes from HS RD/Fielding to Lily Atkins/Lochmere Drive
3 minutes from Lily Atkins/Lochmere to Lochmere/Kildaire (or 3 mins to Walsburg)

Roughly - based on driving slow and looking at houses.

Any idea how long it would take to get from Lochmere to HT driving up Kildaire ?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:02 PM
Snipped for length.

Yup, but Women's intuition is not limited to women!

I have had 2x instances where someone close to me died, and I knew it before I was told. Once, I am pretty sure I knew it before it happened, but since I am not sure exactly what the TOD was, I cannot know for sure.

Once, my wife was in a car accident, and I knew it when it happened, and knew it was her. I was on a volunteer EMS unit at the time, and I was on-call that Sunday. As soon as the pagers went off, I knew it was her. My logical side kept telling me she should have driven past that point, but I knew it nevertheless. I had to go to the scene of the accident and treat her. The accident was not her fault, it was very serious, and totalled the car, but she was not severly injured.

CyberPro


I call it sixth sense and sometimes I wish I didn't have it. It has sometimes ruined a day for me when I can't shake a feeling I have. I guess we all have it and some are more in tune to it than others, male or female.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 10:08 PM
This is great so from Kildaire/Lochmere to Walsburg is 6 minutes - slow is good - means it could be done quicker. From looking at the map - seems that Lochmere/Lily Atkins is about mid way between Kildaire/Lochmere to Wlasburg - does that seem reasonable - 3 minutes either way from Lochmere/Lily Atkins ?


So now we have:
4 minutes from Walsburg Court to HS Rd/Fielding
3 minutes to the recovery site from HS RD/Fielding
3 minutes from recovery site to HS RD/ Fielding
2 minutes from HS RD/Fielding to Lily Atkins/Lochmere Drive
3 minutes from Lily Atkins/Lochmere to Lochmere/Kildaire (or 3 mins to Walsburg)

Roughly - based on driving slow and looking at houses.

Any idea how long it would take to get from Lochmere to HT driving up Kildaire ?


according to google, wallsburg to crescent commons [ht], it's about 8 minutes -- but you've got a couple of lights to deal with.

Zoe
08-17-2008, 10:15 PM
g'night, all. i have an early start tomorrow. perhaps LE will make an arrest this week.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:17 PM
according to google, wallsburg to crescent commons [ht], it's about 8 minutes -- but you've got a couple of lights to deal with.

From Walsburg - there is no direct access to Lochmere Drive is there ? One has to get to that part from Cary parkway - yes.

Let me ask this - couldn't a person come out of the Walsburg court area make a right on Cary Parkway and another right on Lochmere and avoid those lights ?

If you look at the map - the place where you saw LE was pretty much center of all of this and by looks equidistant to three points

The residence
The recovery site
HT

Drive times may vary a bit but distance wise it is pretty central. So I am wondering if LE was out there this am to do what you have just done - clock distances. Doing it on Sunday to get fastest time - may have done it on a Saturday to get average time.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:19 PM
See you have to go Zoe - thank you very much for all this information. Will be studying on it :p

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:27 PM
From Walsburg - there is no direct access to Lochmere Drive is there ? One has to get to that part from Cary parkway - yes.

Let me ask this - couldn't a person come out of the Walsburg court area make a right on Cary Parkway and another right on Lochmere and avoid those lights ?

If you look at the map - the place where you saw LE was pretty much center of all of this and by looks equidistant to three points

The residence
The recovery site
HT

Drive times may vary a bit but distance wise it is pretty central. So I am wondering if LE was out there this am to do what you have just done - clock distances. Doing it on Sunday to get fastest time - may have done it on a Saturday to get average time.

RC...when you leave BC home you pass 2 homes and come to a stop sign. You turn left on Coltsgate. Immediately stop again. You can turn left or right, but you are then on Lochmere Drive. BC home backs up to Lochmere Drive.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:30 PM
RC...when you leave BC home you pass 2 homes and come to a stop sign. You turn left on Coltsgate. Immediately stop again. You can turn left or right, but you are then on Lochmere Drive. BC home backs up to Lochmere Drive.

I went and looked closer on Map Quest - I see that now. Thanks

I'm wondering though if one was to make a right on Lochmere and travel down past Lily Atkins and on out to Kildaire - it would be a right onto Kildaire - you have right on red yes ? So the light, if there is one there wouldn't much matter. Is there another if one is coming from south to north from Lochmere to get into HT ?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:34 PM
I went and looked closer on Map Quest - I see that now. Thanks

I'm wondering though if one was to make a right on Lochmere and travel down past Lily Atkins and on out to Kildaire - it would be a right onto Kildaire - you have right on red yes ? So the light, if there is one there wouldn't much matter. Is there another if one is coming from south to north from Lochmere to get into HT ?

Yes, and you have to wait for a green arrow in order to turn left into HT.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:34 PM
I bet Skittles is going - whew - I escaped this third degree process

:D :D :D

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:41 PM
RC..I do not want to confuse you by any means, but some people are creature habit.
There is a chance he went to Cary Pkwy from Fielding, turned left onto Tryon Road and left onto Kildaire Road into the shopping center.

There is also a cut thru behind Whole Foods in Waverly Place also off of Tryon Road.
Remember he stated Waverly? This could be a clue why he said Waverly. He was NOT living here when HT was in Waverly Place as many who were will still say HT in Waverly.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:48 PM
I bet Skittles is going - whew - I escaped this third degree process

:D :D :D

Skittles got it this morning! It will probably be awhile before she comes back for more...She was a great help in telling us about LTF I have to say.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 10:51 PM
Raisin,

Are you trying to fit the perp's movements that (very) early morning into a set timeframe? And if yes, what is the constraint you're working with (and why)?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:55 PM
Yes, and you have to wait for a green arrow in order to turn left into HT.

Okay so I will say 8 minutes from Wallsburg Court to HT going across Lochmere - should be conservative enough since we aren't rocket scientists here.

So what we have if a person is to transport a body from Wallsburg Ct to the recovery location - there are two ways to get to that location. One way, vehicular traffic is to be expected. The other way - very minimal vehicular traffic until one goes between Lily Atkins and Fielding on Holly Springs Rd. Keeping in mind our person was moving slow and looking at houses.


Wallsburg Ct to Lochmere to Kildaire to HT - 8 minutes

Disposal routes

Route One - traffic encountered Wallsburg to Cary Pkwy to Holly Springs to Fielding to recovery site to HT

4 minutes Wallsburg to Cary Pkwy to Holly Springs to Fielding
3 minutes Fielding to recovery site
3 minutes recovery site to HS RD/Fielding
2 minutes HS Rd/Fielding to Lily Atkins to Lochmere
3 minutes Lochmere/Lily Atkins to Lochmere/Kildaire
3 minutes Lochmere/Kildaire to HT

Total 18 minutes - add one minute to THROW body = 19 minutes

Route Two - minimal traffic encounter -Wallsburg to Lochmere to Lily Atkins to Holly Springs to Fielding to recovery site to HT

3 minutes Wallsburg to Lochmere/Lily Atkins
2 minutes Lochmere/Lily Atkins across HS Rd to Fielding
3 minutes HS Rd/Fielding to recovery site
3 minutes Recovery site to Fielding/HS Rd
2 minutes Fielding/Holly Springs to Lily Atkins/Lochmere
3 minutes Lily Atkins Lochmere to Lochmere/Kildaire
3 minutes Lochmere Kildaire to HT

Total 19 minutes - add one minute to THROW body = 20 minutes



Taking either of these routes - a person would have time to leave the home, dump a body, and go to the store in a maximum of 20 minutes and return back to the house in a total expired time of 28 minutes - roughly.

Two trips to HT - one to dump a body and one just to go to the store total time roughly 48 minutes - add a few minutes to grab a couple of things and one still has time to accomplish all of this in one hour or less.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:56 PM
Raisin,

Are you trying to fit the perp's movements that (very) early morning into a set timeframe? And if yes, what is the constraint you're working with (and why)?

Maybe we could video the route for RC and upload it so there is a visual. I know it has to be hard not to be here 1st hand.

Whatcha think SG should we offer it?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 10:57 PM
Okay so I will say 8 minutes from Wallsburg Court to HT going across Lochmere - should be conservative enough since we aren't rocket scientists here.

So what we have if a person is to transport a body from Wallsburg Ct to the recovery location - there are two ways to get to that location. One way, vehicular traffic is to be expected. The other way - very minimal vehicular traffic until one goes between Lily Atkins and Fielding on Holly Springs Rd. Keeping in mind our person was moving slow and looking at houses.


Wallsburg Ct to Lochmere to Kildaire to HT - 8 minutes

Disposal routes

Route One - traffic encountered Wallsburg to Cary Pkwy to Holly Springs to Fielding to recovery site to HT

4 minutes Wallsburg to Cary Pkwy to Holly Springs to Fielding
3 minutes Fielding to recovery site
3 minutes recovery site to HS RD/Fielding
2 minutes HS Rd/Fielding to Lily Atkins to Lochmere
3 minutes Lochmere/Lily Atkins to Lochmere/Kildaire
3 minutes Lochmere/Kildaire to HT

Total 18 minutes - add one minute to THROW body = 19 minutes

Route Two - minimal traffic encounter -Wallsburg to Lochmere to Lily Atkins to Holly Springs to Fielding to recovery site to HT

3 minutes Wallsburg to Lochmere/Lily Atkins
2 minutes Lochmere/Lily Atkins across HS Rd to Fielding
3 minutes HS Rd/Fielding to recovery site
3 minutes Recovery site to Fielding/HS Rd
2 minutes Fielding/Holly Springs to Lily Atkins/Lochmere
3 minutes Lily Atkins Lochmere to Lochmere/Kildaire
3 minutes Lochmere Kildaire to HT

Total 19 minutes - add one minute to THROW body = 20 minutes



Taking either of these routes - a person would have time to leave the home, dump a body, and go to the store in a maximum of 20 minutes and return back to the house in a total expired time of 28 minutes - roughly.

Two trips to HT - one to dump a body and one just to go to the store total time roughly 48 minutes - add a few minutes to grab a couple of things and one still has time to accomlish all of this in one hour or less.

DING DANG RC!!!! Are you a statistics major???? :eek:

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 10:59 PM
Maybe we could video the route for RC and upload it so there is a visual. I know it has to be hard not to be here 1st hand.

Whatcha think SG should we offer it?

Appreciate the offer but i don't think it is necessary for either of you to go out of your way for this. Thanks though:blowkiss:

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:00 PM
Maybe we could video the route for RC and upload it so there is a visual. I know it has to be hard not to be here 1st hand.

Whatcha think SG should we offer it?

I think he would find that VERY helpful, yes. Also, at 6am, there is less traffic than say, at 9am or 10am, so it might have taken even less time than your supposition, RC.

Of course he didn't have to "catch a flight/limo to the airport" like O.J. so if it took him 20 min, 30 min, 40 min or more it was all possible/doable. As far as I can tell the only 'constraint' is that he is back home by 7am for Nancy to "go running."

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:02 PM
DING DANG RC!!!! Are you a statistics major???? :eek:

Compliments of ZOE - lets give her a big hand for taking the drive and being so observant.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:04 PM
one still has time to accomplish all of this in one hour or less.

What is this 1 hr time constraint you are investigating? Did he say something about a 1 hr window somewhere?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:05 PM
Raisin,

Are you trying to fit the perp's movements that (very) early morning into a set timeframe? And if yes, what is the constraint you're working with (and why)?

I worked with this time frame because it is one no one can argue - per Brads words he was a busy boy between 6 and 7 am. I put this into that time frame for that reason alone.

You can add another 20 minutes for the 4am trip to HT.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:08 PM
I worked with this time frame because it is one no one can argue - per Brads words he was a busy boy between 6 and 7 am. I fitted this into that for that reason alone.

You can add another 20 minutes for the 4am trip to HT.

Oh clearly. He had a LOT going on that morning. Whenever before in his married life did he make 2 dawn trips, within 30 min, to a grocery store? I would bet just ONCE. And how (in)convenient that it just so happened those 2 trips occurred within the 45 min before his wife goes "missing?" Very.

Not only was he a busy boy between 6am and 7am, I think he was probably 'busy' from about 1am on. No sleep that night!

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:09 PM
Compliments of ZOE - lets give her a big hand for taking the drive and being so observant.

It might be just be as quick or quicker for BC to have gone down Cary Pkwy to Tryon to Kildaire Farm. It is 4 lanes.
Going thru Lochmere you have a slow speed limit because of all the pedestrians, and my kids hate going thru Lochmere. Tryon & Cary pkwy is pretty quick IMO
Also there is a cut thru many use...New Waverly Place.

Also depends on if he left his home to go to HT or from the dump site to go to HT.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:11 PM
It might be just be as quick or quicker for BC to have gone down Cary Pkwy to Tryon to Kildaire Farm. It is 4 lanes.
Going thru Lochmere you have a slow speed limit because of all the pedestrians, and my kids hate going thru Lochmere. Tryon & Cary pkwy is pretty quick IMO
Also there is a cut thru many use New Waverly Place.

Also depends on if he left his home to go to HT or from the dump site to go to HT.


I can't comment on that since our "driver" didn't go that way - just working with what routes taken.

ETA - however I do believe in my own thinking that the time between 6 and 7 was when Nancy was taken to the recovery site. JMO on it.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:15 PM
I actually think his 'biggest' mistake was going to the store at all that morning. He must have done it in case someone saw him out and about early that morning--he could say he had to go to the store. However, it's created a whole big hornet's nest cause this is not a typical pattern for him. Now, if he was someone who went to the store early in the morning a couple times a week and had done so for a long time, then this behavior could be seen as just part of a regular pattern of behavior. But nope. Big spotlight shining on this behavior and this behavior *is* unusual for this person at this time of day.

He probably would have been better off assuming no one saw him when he was out so early in that morning....and then stay put at home.

Could the need for laundry detergent have been THAT critical in any crime scene cleanup that he couldn't have waited until later in the day to acquire some?

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:17 PM
BC stated Waverly Place...why? He didn't live here when HT was in Waverly Place. It was years before he moved here that it was located there, and he might not had even had known that.

As some on here have taught me...when they say something that is not right it might be a clue.

Waverly Place could be the road he cut thru on to get to HT.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:19 PM
however I do believe in my own thinking that the time between 6 and 7 was when Nancy was taken to the recovery site. JMO on it.

Really? See this surprises me. IF that 4:20am visit to HT happened, then I think the dump would have happened around 4am-ish.

If there was no HT visit at 4:20am then I agree with you on a 6am dump.

But a trip to HT in the 4am hour, if it occurred, doesn't make sense unless he dumps her body around that time; I'm assuming she was dead by 4am so I can't believe he'd leave her body in the house while he went out, and alternatively I can't imagine him driving around and going to HT and leaving her body in the trunk then either. But stranger things have happened, I guess.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 11:23 PM
Okay so I will say 8 minutes from Wallsburg Court to HT going across Lochmere - should be conservative enough since we aren't rocket scientists here.

So what we have if a person is to transport a body from Wallsburg Ct to the recovery location - there are two ways to get to that location. One way, vehicular traffic is to be expected. The other way - very minimal vehicular traffic until one goes between Lily Atkins and Fielding on Holly Springs Rd. Keeping in mind our person was moving slow and looking at houses.


Wallsburg Ct to Lochmere to Kildaire to HT - 8 minutes

Disposal routes

Route One - traffic encountered Wallsburg to Cary Pkwy to Holly Springs to Fielding to recovery site to HT

4 minutes Wallsburg to Cary Pkwy to Holly Springs to Fielding
3 minutes Fielding to recovery site
3 minutes recovery site to HS RD/Fielding
2 minutes HS Rd/Fielding to Lily Atkins to Lochmere
3 minutes Lochmere/Lily Atkins to Lochmere/Kildaire
3 minutes Lochmere/Kildaire to HT

Total 18 minutes - add one minute to THROW body = 19 minutes

Route Two - minimal traffic encounter -Wallsburg to Lochmere to Lily Atkins to Holly Springs to Fielding to recovery site to HT

3 minutes Wallsburg to Lochmere/Lily Atkins
2 minutes Lochmere/Lily Atkins across HS Rd to Fielding
3 minutes HS Rd/Fielding to recovery site
3 minutes Recovery site to Fielding/HS Rd
2 minutes Fielding/Holly Springs to Lily Atkins/Lochmere
3 minutes Lily Atkins Lochmere to Lochmere/Kildaire
3 minutes Lochmere Kildaire to HT

Total 19 minutes - add one minute to THROW body = 20 minutes



Taking either of these routes - a person would have time to leave the home, dump a body, and go to the store in a maximum of 20 minutes and return back to the house in a total expired time of 28 minutes - roughly.

Two trips to HT - one to dump a body and one just to go to the store total time roughly 48 minutes - add a few minutes to grab a couple of things and one still has time to accomplish all of this in one hour or less.

Excellent work, RC!

:clap:

Thanks to Zoe as well! :)

Great job!

maconrich
08-17-2008, 11:25 PM
Very impressive!

so you're looking at a direct trip -- does that mean you think he knew of the spot he'd put her right off instead of driving around looking for it or something like that?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:26 PM
Really? See this surprises me. IF that 4:20am visit to HT happened, then I think the dump would have happened around 4am-ish.

If there was no HT visit at 4:20am then I agree with you on a 6am dump.

But a trip to HT in the 4am hour, if it occurred, doesn't make sense; I'm assuming she was dead by 4am so I can't believe he'd leave her body in the house while he went out and I can't imagine him driving around and going to HT and leaving her body in the trunk then either. But stranger things have happened, I guess.

He has access to two vehicles and I for one do not believe he used HIS car to transport Nancy anywhere. The 4am trip could have been the perfect excuse to back the X5 into the drive instead of pulling it in. At 4 am it was much less likely someone would notice this subtle difference.

I am however undecided about TOD.

momto3kids
08-17-2008, 11:27 PM
I think he took a huge chance to hold on to NC's body until 6 or 7. He could be seen by joggers & walkers, the paper delivery person and also the girls were bound to be getting up. Also Bella was old enough to unlock a door and wander around looking inside and outside.

I think she was murdered within 2 hours of coming home, she started possible rigor, and the 1st thing on his mind was to get her out of the house.

Realized he had blood on him and went straight to the store to get detergent instead of risking not having enough.

DogWood
08-17-2008, 11:29 PM
I actually think his 'biggest' mistake was going to the store at all that morning. He must have done it in case someone saw him out and about early that morning--he could say he had to go to the store. However, it's created a whole big hornet's nest cause this is not a typical pattern for him. Now, if he was someone who went to the store early in the morning a couple times a week and had done so for a long time, then this behavior could be seen as just part of a regular pattern of behavior. But nope. Big spotlight shining on this behavior and this behavior *is* unusual for this person at this time of day.

He probably would have been better off assuming no one saw him when he was out so early in that morning....and then stay put at home.

Could the need for laundry detergent have been THAT critical in any crime scene cleanup that he couldn't have waited until later in the day to acquire some?

Personally, I can't see BC going to the store for anything that time in the morning...let alone laundry detergent...unless he was trying to cover for something.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:32 PM
Very impressive!

so you're looking at a direct trip -- does that mean you think he knew of the spot he'd put her right off instead of driving around looking for it or something like that?

I think he was aware enough of his neighborhood to know where there were no street lights and few houses. Not sure they lived in Lochmere for 8 years but they definitely lived there over 4 and a half.

Don't you ladies just hate to get behind us guys on a road ? We are always looking around instead of just driving. :p

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:35 PM
I think he took a huge chance to hold on to NC's body until 6 or 7. One is to be seen by joggers & walkers, the paper delivery person and also the girls were bound to be getting up and the risk he took in holding off in dumping NC. Also Bella was old enough to unlock a door and wander around looking inside and outside.

I think she was murdered within 2 hours of coming home, she started possible rigor, and the 1st thing on his mind was to get her out of the house.

Realized he had blood on him and went straight to the store to get detergent instead of risking not having enough.

Thanks for clarifying. Wow. This just really gives me chills on top of whatever chills I had before. In our little soiree meetup the other day, I commented to the folks there that for some reason these murdering husbands always seem to do some laundry right when they get back.

OJ, David Westerfield, Scott Peterson, and now BC. Only one of those 4 usually did his own laundry and that was because he was single. The rest suddenly got a strong interest in running their washing machine when they got back from wherever they were the same day their intimate partner (or in Westerfield's case, little missing neighbor girl) goes missing and/or is found murdered. And doing laundry does not guarantee removal of DNA. Neither does dry cleaning. And yet these men persist in trying to go that route to clean up.

Until Tide makes a special DNA-stain removal formula, I think burning an item of clothing down to ashes is really the only way to ensure no evidence of DNA. :rolleyes:

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:39 PM
Thanks for clarifying. Wow. This just really gives me chills on top of whatever chills I had before. In our little soiree meetup the other day, I commented to the folks there that for some reason these murdering husbands always seem to do some laundry right when they get back.

OJ, David Westerfield, Scott Peterson, and now BC. Only one of those 4 usually did his own laundry and that was because he was single. The rest suddenly got a strong interest in running their washing machine when they got back from wherever they were the same day their intimate partner (or in Westerfield's case, little missing neighbor girl) goes missing and/or is found murdered. And doing laundry does not guarantee removal of DNA. Neither does dry cleaning. And yet these men persist in trying to go that route to clean up.

Until Tide makes a special DNA-stain removal formula, I think burning an item of clothing down to ashes is really the only way to ensure no evidence of DNA. :rolleyes:


Oxyclean or any enzyme based cleaning product will do the job just fine.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:39 PM
He has access to two vehicles and I for one do not believe he used HIS car to transport Nancy anywhere.

question: is there a cover for the cargo area in a BMW x5? If not and that was the car used to move her body then he would have had to use a cover of some type: tarp, blanket, sheet...something.

I'm assuming of course that he didn't put sunglasses on her and prop her up in the front seat, "Weekend at Bernie's" style, while he drove around. :eek:

(sorry, I know it's not funny....but I have to make myself chuckle a little from time to time cause this case is so depressing).

maconrich
08-17-2008, 11:40 PM
I think he was aware enough of his neighborhood to know where there were no street lights and few houses. Not sure they lived in Lochmere for 8 years but they definitely lived there over 4 and a half.

Don't you ladies just hate to get behind us guys on a road ? We are always looking around instead of just driving. :p

LoL! Yep I know I do!! And yes I'm sure he knows the layout good enuf after all that time. Still seems it required either some thinking on his feet or prior thoughts/fantasies of doing it. (I'd go with the fantasies even if it was a heat of the moment/unplanned thing).

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:42 PM
Oxyclean or any enzyme based cleaning product will do the job just fine.

It will?

I've had stains that did not get removed by Oxyclean or by using Nature's Miracle enzymatic solution. Some stains created by me, some created by my dog. It's good stuff, but I haven't found either to work 100% of the time. Then again I've never used it to try and clean up a crime scene so ....

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:43 PM
question: is there a cover for the cargo area in a BMW x5? If not and that was the car used to move her body then he would have had to use a cover of some type: tarp, blanket, sheet...something.

I'm assuming of course that he didn't put sunglasses on her and prop her up in the front seat, "Weekend at Bernie's" style, while he drove around. :eek:

(sorry, I know it's not funny....but I have to make myself chuckle a little from time to time cause this case is so depressing).

Weekend at Bernie's might be his favorite movie for all we know.

Read through Zoe's post on the other thread - she gives a very good description of how many people she saw and how the traffic was shortly before 7 am.

wirehair
08-17-2008, 11:45 PM
If he knew of the dumping site ahead of time, does that make it premeditated. Surely he couldn't think that clearly if by chance he had just killed someone. Of course he took a big chance that someone out with their dog in the back yard could see him go by. I'm out with one of mine at 5:30 everyone morning and I notice every car that goes down the side road by my house.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:47 PM
It will?

I've had stains that did not get removed by Oxyclean or by using Nature's Miracle enzymatic solution. Some stains created by me, some created by my dog. It's good stuff, but I haven't found either to work 100% of the time. Then again I've never used it to try and clean up a crime scene so ....

Let me see if I can find a particular transcript involving a forensics guy - ME/pathologist - can't even remember his name but he does confirm enzyme based products destroy DNA. Will go hunt for it.

SleuthyGal
08-17-2008, 11:48 PM
Weekend at Bernie's might be his favorite movie for all we know.

Read through Zoe's post on the other thread - she gives a very good description of how many people she saw and how the traffic was shortly before 7 am.

I'll go look for Zoe's post.

Any info on whether there is a cargo cover on a BMW x5 or not?

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:52 PM
I'll go look for Zoe's post.

Any info on whether there is a cargo cover on a BMW x5 or not?

I saw LE lifting one up in the rear of the X5 in the video I posted the other day.

raisincharlie
08-17-2008, 11:58 PM
If he knew of the dumping site ahead of time, does that make it premeditated. Surely he couldn't think that clearly if by chance he had just killed someone. Of course he took a big chance that someone out with their dog in the back yard could see him go by. I'm out with one of mine at 5:30 everyone morning and I notice every car that goes down the side road by my house.

Because he knew of someplace to hide Nancy doesn't indicate premeditation with respect to the murder. It just meant he knew of an isolated spot.

maconrich
08-17-2008, 11:58 PM
so he had her body in the car for appx 2 hrs before dumping her? seems the forensic evid would be pretty decent unless he disposed of something he'd place her on during the wait. God forbid either child had gotten up :(

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 12:00 AM
so he had her body in the car for appx 2 hrs before dumping her? seems the forensic evid would be pretty decent unless he disposed of something he'd place her on during the wait. God forbid either child had gotten up :(

I am very undecided about TOD. I'm not much buying the theory he dressed her in running attire after he murdered her. Just my thought, she dressed herself. I have been wrong before however.:p

maconrich
08-18-2008, 12:02 AM
I am very undecided about TOD. I'm not much buying the theory he dressed her in running attire after he murdered her. Just my thought, she dressed herself. I have been wrong before however.:p
ok so the trip was while she was sleeping then everything hit the fan at some point around 6ish and things went fast from there. ITA on the jogging clothes and would be extremely surprised if she didn't have on exactly what he said (before he killed her).

Daphne69
08-18-2008, 12:11 AM
If he knew of the dumping site ahead of time, does that make it premeditated. Surely he couldn't think that clearly if by chance he had just killed someone. Of course he took a big chance that someone out with their dog in the back yard could see him go by. I'm out with one of mine at 5:30 everyone morning and I notice every car that goes down the side road by my house.

I am not terribly familiar with that end of Cary, but I decided on a whim one night to drive the route from BC's house to the dump site. It was dark and I didn't have the map memorized too well. Still, I was very surprised athow easy it was to "stumble" on to that the dump site neighborhood from his house. I was just guessing at directions and ended up right in front of it.

My point is that if BC did this and it was not premeditated, it's not that far-fetched for him to be going out to get rid of the body and drive by that development and think, "Under construction. Hmm...bet there's some deserted places back there that will take a bit to come across.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 12:12 AM
ok so the trip was while she was sleeping then everything hit the fan at some point around 6ish and things went fast from there. ITA on the jogging clothes and would be extremely surprised if she didn't have on exactly what he said (before he killed her).

I'm not sure how the 420 trip to HT fits. But both of these people were athletes, early rising was not a stranger to either one I think. Just my gut feeling on this really, but I don't think she was murdered when she came home from the party or even shortly there after. I wish I could tell you why.

wirehair
08-18-2008, 12:14 AM
Is there a sign at Holly Springs road saying that there are new home sites back there? I don't think he went driving aimlessly around hoping to stumble on an isolated place.

Bob&Bob
08-18-2008, 12:21 AM
Is there a sign at Holly Springs road saying that there are new home sites back there? I don't think he went driving aimlessly around hoping to stumble on an isolated place.

Couldn't tell ya.

Bob&Bob
08-18-2008, 12:25 AM
Really? See this surprises me. IF that 4:20am visit to HT happened, then I think the dump would have happened around 4am-ish.

If there was no HT visit at 4:20am then I agree with you on a 6am dump.

But a trip to HT in the 4am hour, if it occurred, doesn't make sense unless he dumps her body around that time; I'm assuming she was dead by 4am so I can't believe he'd leave her body in the house while he went out, and alternatively I can't imagine him driving around and going to HT and leaving her body in the trunk then either. But stranger things have happened, I guess.


For those of you who are new or who are afraid to speak
up because no one will answer your question,
HT means Harris Teeter, which is a grocery store.

wirehair
08-18-2008, 12:29 AM
IMO he is very detail oriented. He may have thought about this for weeks. He scouted out places on the internet and then checked out the ones nearby. He might have not planned when; but he had his escape and dump site planned. You don't just stumble on sites where there lots have not been for sale yet. He had to wait until the road was paved so he wouldn't leave tire tracks. He might have initially found it on his bike. Another far out thought... HM.. no hyphen.. was NC friend and yet had an affair with BC. Could he have had another recent or current fling with another friend and she might have helped him by parking down the road and walking in to keep the children while he was on one of his trips before dawn. He might have even told her that NC had run off and one of the kids was sick and he had to find a 24 hour pharmacy or something and stayed gone a very short time while she was at his house.. Now she is maybe too scared to come forward.

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 12:40 AM
I'm not sure how the 420 trip to HT fits. But both of these people were athletes, early rising was not a stranger to either one I think. Just my gut feeling on this really, but I don't think she was murdered when she came home from the party or even shortly there after. I wish I could tell you why. Well I'm a big believer in following one's 'gut instincts' so I'm sure the answer is marinating somewhere in your subconcious! :wink:

I'm trying to imagine WHY, if NC was still alive and uninjured, he would make a 4:20am trip to HT (again, IF he really did make that visit at that time). Why would he even have been awake at 4am if NC was alive? What kind of plan includes getting up and going to the grocery store to purchase detergent at 4am? It just seems so crazy/illogical to me *if* NC is alive at that point in time. I'm trying to make the leap in logic, but my brain is just not able to go there.

I guess I need absolute/official confirmation of a 4:20am HT visit (either yea or nay) to properly wrap my head around these (new) scenarios and make sense of them.

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 12:44 AM
I am very undecided about TOD. I'm not much buying the theory he dressed her in running attire after he murdered her. Just my thought, she dressed herself. I have been wrong before however.:p

I'm waiting to see exactly what she was wearing when found. IF she had on an over-the-head style jogging bra (the kind with no hooks/clasps) then IMHO she dressed herself in that attire.

However, if she had running shorts and a shirt, but no jogging bra, then I do not believe she went jogging at all and she may have or may not have dressed herself, but either way, no bra, no jog.

IMHO of course.

maconrich
08-18-2008, 12:49 AM
I'm waiting to see exactly what she was wearing when found. IF she had on an over-the-head style jogging bra (the kind with no hooks/clasps) then IMHO she dressed herself in that attire.

However, if she had running shorts and a shirt, but no jogging bra, then I do not believe she went jogging at all and she may have or may not have dressed herself, but either way, no bra, no jog.

IMHO of course.

I'd guess his observational skills re women are good enuf he would have dressed her normally; but it makes more sense for her to have already been dressed. :waitasec:

wirehair
08-18-2008, 12:56 AM
Any pictures of him made him look really tired during that time. I expect he never went to sleep. He probably didn't sleep the next night either. He was probably cleaning even more. He knew LE would eventually get a SW and he took more time with his task. He really thought he would have 24 hours at least to get the job done. (If he was the perp)

wirehair
08-18-2008, 08:28 AM
MT3K-- Do you think BC would take off with a body in hopes he would stumble on a dumping site without thinking it out first? Maybe that's the time span between NC getting home and the 4:20 HT trip. He could have left then and was driving around looking for a place and then stopped at HT. Maybe he wasn't worried that the girls might wake up.

Jess
08-18-2008, 09:13 AM
Is it not today that it will be decided whether the SW will be unsealed ?? Anyone know what time the hearing will be ?

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 09:20 AM
MT3K-- Do you think BC would take off with a body in hopes he would stumble on a dumping site without thinking it out first? Maybe that's the time span between NC getting home and the 4:20 HT trip. He could have left then and was driving around looking for a place and then stopped at HT. Maybe he wasn't worried that the girls might wake up.

I've said 2 things from the beginning...

1--if he planned it out and wanted to make it look random he would have gone to the Regency area. Perfect place with all construction, woods, roads for easy accessibility AND NC was known to jog there.

2--unless they were looking for a new home in there (which I don't think so)or had a friend in there, absolutely blows my mind he just happened to know about it.


Personally, BC panicked once he realized she was dead...went on the computer looking for an area to take NC. We've seen how detailed the maps are now...he found the closest place to his home. If he thought it out or planned it he would have gone to Regency IMO.

As for MeadowRidge..My husbands bf has lived 20+ yrs on Holly Springs Road, a few doors down from the entrance of MeadowRidge. They fish in the pond right inside the entrance on Fielding. The only reason my husband knew about the new homes were the trucks passing. My point is this is not the typical new subdivison entrance with new homes being constructed along the road at the entrance.

Sorry..to answer your question...No I don't think he drove around, he went to the computer looking for the closest and quickest area to get to.

DogWood
08-18-2008, 09:31 AM
Is it not today that it will be decided whether the SW will be unsealed ?? Anyone know what time the hearing will be ?

Yes, it is today but I'm not sure of the time. This latest report and video from WTVD just say Monday afternoon.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6334284

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 09:38 AM
Yes, it is today but I'm not sure of the time. This latest report and video from WTVD just say Monday afternoon.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6334284

Supposedly 2:30 pm (EST)

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 09:40 AM
Thanks for clarifying. Wow. This just really gives me chills on top of whatever chills I had before. In our little soiree meetup the other day, I commented to the folks there that for some reason these murdering husbands always seem to do some laundry right when they get back.

OJ, David Westerfield, Scott Peterson, and now BC. Only one of those 4 usually did his own laundry and that was because he was single. The rest suddenly got a strong interest in running their washing machine when they got back from wherever they were the same day their intimate partner (or in Westerfield's case, little missing neighbor girl) goes missing and/or is found murdered. And doing laundry does not guarantee removal of DNA. Neither does dry cleaning. And yet these men persist in trying to go that route to clean up.

Until Tide makes a special DNA-stain removal formula, I think burning an item of clothing down to ashes is really the only way to ensure no evidence of DNA. :rolleyes:

or throwing all of the clothes worn in the dumpster. makes me think he was cleaning a rug, too, or something in the house that could be thrown in the washer, but would have been obvious to people if no longer in the house.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 09:50 AM
I'm having a hard time thinking a fellow who lived in that area for as many years as he did was oblivious to the fact, or missed seeing woods on the east side of Holly Springs Road. There are also woods on the west side as one goes south on Holly Springs road. The difference is there is a turn off at Fielding to the east side, turn offs to the west below Lily Atkins and the wooded area south don't seem to exist looking at this aerial.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s198/Mahmooinla/Nancy%20Cooper/aerialhomebodylocation.jpg

The man trained for and participiated in ironman events - he has a bike , over the time he lived there I bet he was quite aware of his surroundings as viewed from a bike or doing his own running.

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 09:55 AM
I've said 2 things from the beginning...

1--if he planned it out and wanted to make it look random he would have gone to the Regency area. Perfect place with all construction, woods, roads for easy accessibility AND NC was known to jog there.

2--unless they were looking for a new home in there (which I don't think so)or had a friend in there, absolutely blows my mind he just happened to know about it.


Personally, BC panicked once he realized she was dead...went on the computer looking for an area to take NC. We've seen how detailed the maps are now...he found the closest place to his home. If he thought it out or planned it he would have gone to Regency IMO.

As for MeadowRidge..My husbands bf has lived 20+ yrs on Holly Springs Road, a few doors down from the entrance of MeadowRidge. They fish in the pond right inside the entrance on Fielding. The only reason my husband knew about the new homes were the trucks passing. My point is this is not the typical new subdivison entrance with new homes being constructed along the road at the entrance.

Sorry..to answer your question...No I don't think he drove around, he went to the computer looking for the closest and quickest area to get to.

i know the area well, too, & didn't know about those new houses off in that neighborhood. if he had known somebody through Nancy over there, her friends would know & could be asked. Somehow I don't think so, though.

i don't believe nancy jogged over there, so she was dumped there. if it was brad, somehow he must have either known of that area or was driving around in the middle of the night looking for a spot. but, as momof3kids said, why not drive to regency. i'm guessing he didn't know of the constuction over there either.

My guess---he was looking for a remote place close to where they lived, and knew that much of that side of Holly Springs Road was undeveloped or if developed, lots of space & woods between houses. That's how I've thought of that area---lots of hills, woods, space & privacy between houses, & newer houses.

He figured one of those subdivisions on "that" side of Holly Springs Road would have enough woods, and he might have driven into several neighborhoods off of Holly Springs & Campbell Road, looking for a good spot. My guess---this took place soon as it happened, he took off her clothes (or cut them off) that she was wearing at the party, but wasn't able to get running clothes on her (I can't see him dressing her, but who knows...), and then immediately went for a drive in the middle of the night while the girls were safely asleep. he guessed that the direction of that side of holly springs road was less developed (that would have been my guess, too) & the area he picked seems hilly & wooded from Holly Springs Road---perfect to drive into to see if it might work.

the man who found her did NOT go to where her body was---it was far enough off the road to see her body, etc etc. what this tells me, though, is that

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 09:56 AM
i know the area well, too, & didn't know about those new houses off in that neighborhood. if he had known somebody through Nancy over there, her friends would know & could be asked. Somehow I don't think so, though.

i don't believe nancy jogged over there, so she was dumped there. if it was brad, somehow he must have either known of that area or was driving around in the middle of the night looking for a spot. but, as momof3kids said, why not drive to regency. i'm guessing he didn't know of the constuction over there either.

My guess---he was looking for a remote place close to where they lived, and knew that much of that side of Holly Springs Road was undeveloped or if developed, lots of space & woods between houses. That's how I've thought of that area---lots of hills, woods, space & privacy between houses, & newer houses.

He figured one of those subdivisions on "that" side of Holly Springs Road would have enough woods, and he might have driven into several neighborhoods off of Holly Springs & Campbell Road, looking for a good spot. My guess---this took place soon as it happened, he took off her clothes (or cut them off) that she was wearing at the party, but wasn't able to get running clothes on her (I can't see him dressing her, but who knows...), and then immediately went for a drive in the middle of the night while the girls were safely asleep. he guessed that the direction of that side of holly springs road was less developed (that would have been my guess, too) & the area he picked seems hilly & wooded from Holly Springs Road---perfect to drive into to see if it might work.

the man who found her did NOT go to where her body was---it was far enough off the road to see her body, etc etc. what this tells me, though, is that

didn't finish--- the perp had to have walked a bit in the dirt. maybe laundry was for tennis shoes?

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 10:01 AM
I'm having a hard time thinking a fellow who lived in that area for as many years as he did was oblivious to the fact, or missed seeing woods on the east side of Holly Springs Road. There are also woods on the west side as one goes south on Holly Springs road. The difference is there is a turn off at Fielding to the east side, turn offs to the west below Lily Atkins and the wooded area south don't seem to exist looking at this aerial.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s198/Mahmooinla/Nancy%20Cooper/aerialhomebodylocation.jpg

The man trained for and participiated in ironman events - he has a bike , over the time he lived there I bet he was quite aware of his surroundings as viewed from a bike or doing his own running.

i think he's too smart to have gone online in the middle of the night looking at google earth, or anything unusual where it could be tracked.

people do bike on holly springs, though, and sometimes for variety, while I don't bike major roads for fun, i bike on the major roads & then bike through the neighborhoods around where we live. he would have appreciated the hills in that area & it's plausible that he was more aware of his surroundings than some of us. (his personality was very detailed oriented---he would have noticed far more in his surroundings than I would)

DogWood
08-18-2008, 10:01 AM
Supposedly 2:30 pm (EST)

OK, thanks!

I had it in my head that that was the time the SW's were set to be released if CW didn't file his motion, which he did on Friday.

Star12
08-18-2008, 10:05 AM
didn't finish--- the perp had to have walked a bit in the dirt. maybe laundry was for tennis shoes?

sunflower, the spot where her body was found was just a very few feet off the road - no more than 5 or 6 ft. It wasn't visible from the road because there is a dropoff there of a couple two - three feet. Not much walking in dirt, but in a dry condition the clay is quite packed.

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 10:09 AM
I'm waiting to see exactly what she was wearing when found. IF she had on an over-the-head style jogging bra (the kind with no hooks/clasps) then IMHO she dressed herself in that attire.

However, if she had running shorts and a shirt, but no jogging bra, then I do not believe she went jogging at all and she may have or may not have dressed herself, but either way, no bra, no jog.

IMHO of course.

i can't imagine him dressing her after killing her, if he's the perp. but, if he's the perp & it happened directly after the party, he absolutely had to get Friday evening's clothes off of her so that the seemingly plausible running story would work.

i'm guessing the reason she was scantily clad (or however it was phrased--don't remember the wording but my impression was that she wasn't wearing full clothing) was because he got the other clothes off but didn't put much clothing on her (or any clothing).

the bra thing is interesting. my bet is she was wearing a regular bra that she wore Friday night. And, if so, this would be significant, I think

I don't know about most women on this one, but I *NEVER* wear my "regular" bra's for any exercise in NC---it's so darn hot & I am soaked when biking, running, walking, just being outside, so I don't want to ruin my everyday bra's. Is this true for you NC women? I'll survey people today on this topic :)

and did she have tennis shoes & socks on? i don't think so from the brief remark made about her not wearing much.....

Daphne69
08-18-2008, 10:12 AM
i think he's too smart to have gone online in the middle of the night looking at google earth, or anything unusual where it could be tracked.

people do bike on holly springs, though, and sometimes for variety, while I don't bike major roads for fun, i bike on the major roads & then bike through the neighborhoods around where we live. he would have appreciated the hills in that area & it's plausible that he was more aware of his surroundings than some of us. (his personality was very detailed oriented---he would have noticed far more in his surroundings than I would)

Bolding is mine. IIRC, the sign at the entrance to the dump site neighborhood indicates there are new home sites available. I thught I remember seeing that, because it doesn't look like that from the road and I wasn't sure at first if I had the right place.

Star12
08-18-2008, 10:22 AM
MT3K-- Do you think BC would take off with a body in hopes he would stumble on a dumping site without thinking it out first? Maybe that's the time span between NC getting home and the 4:20 HT trip. He could have left then and was driving around looking for a place and then stopped at HT. Maybe he wasn't worried that the girls might wake up.

IIRC, BC and NC had previously been looking for a larger home. The developer of this area is Toll Bros., and the area they had finally, sorta, settled on was in a different location, closer to RTP, but which also was being developed by Toll Bros. However, no money actually exchanged hands, IMO, because of the marital strife. I'm pretty sure BC would have been aware of this area.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 10:22 AM
OK, thanks!

I had it in my head that that was the time the SW's were set to be released if CW didn't file his motion, which he did on Friday.

Let me double check the WRAL and N & O links to be sure of that before you take my word on it. Will add a the link to this post after I find it :)

Check back in a minute or two.

Here we go:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3385292/

A hearing is scheduled for 2:30 p.m. Monday on the issue of the warrants being sealed.
The two other warrants, which are scheduled to be released this month, are for the office of Cooper's husband, Brad Cooper, at Cisco Systems in Research Triangle Park and another for an undisclosed location.

ncnative
08-18-2008, 10:26 AM
Nancy could have come home and taken her own clothes off herself. Maybe she was getting into the shower. Maybe she had taken her clothes off and gone straight to bed, BUT that would put her in the girls bedroom where she slept. Maybe he "got" Nancy before she went to bed. Most likely. In bed, she would have been in the child's bedroom.

Maybe she never made it upstairs.

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 10:30 AM
sunflower, the spot where her body was found was just a very few feet off the road - no more than 5 or 6 ft. It wasn't visible from the road because there is a dropoff there of a couple two - three feet. Not much walking in dirt, but in a dry condition the clay is quite packed.

thanks star. helpful. that fits w reports re the person who found the body. so, in dry condition, that red/orange clay wouldn't necessarily get on the perp's shoes, or not bad enough for a detergent with bleach to take care of :).

however, IMO, an athlete like brad would likely have expensive tennis shoes & i can't imagine him wanting to dump good quality shoes OR washing them.

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 10:34 AM
Nancy could have come home and taken her own clothes off herself. Maybe she was getting into the shower. Maybe she had taken her clothes off and gone straight to bed, BUT that would put her in the girls bedroom where she slept. Maybe he "got" Nancy before she went to bed. Most likely. In bed, she would have been in the child's bedroom.

Maybe she never made it upstairs.

could be that she had taken a shower, was ready for bed & they got into a discussion.

i'm guessing, though, that she got home & they got into a discussion that turned violent, and never made it upstairs.

guessing, but don't know, but do know that a lot of the lochmere homes have bathrooms connected w at least one of the kids' bedrooms. if her home had a bath w a kids' bedroom, she would have slept in that room w/ the bedroom door locked. again, her friends would know this. if so, she wouldn't have encountered him after her shower.

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 10:39 AM
IIRC, BC and NC had previously been looking for a larger home. The developer of this area is Toll Bros., and the area they had finally, sorta, settled on was in a different location, closer to RTP, but which also was being developed by Toll Bros. However, no money actually exchanged hands, IMO, because of the marital strife. I'm pretty sure BC would have been aware of this area.

Bingo. That makes total sense. Anyone looking at one builder's homes knows exactly where the other homes are, and has looked at those house to get ideas.

ncnative
08-18-2008, 10:43 AM
I've been thinking about how NC told a friend that Bella (age 4) had started regressing in that she had begun to "poop and pee" in her pants again. Something must have really been bothering her for that to happen. Messing up your pants at that age is awful for the child to experience. I wonder what Bella had heard and seen between the parents in the last months.

I wonder if BC got physical/verbal in a way very scary to a child in front of Bella. Sounds like he had before, according to NC's friends and family. Very scary thing to think about. Bella and Katie could very well just come out and talk about things they've seen and heard. You know how a kid will suddenly come out and innocently tell something in kindergarten, or in public somewhere: "My Dadd'ys got a penis. It's really funny." Or, "My mommy and daddy were yelling at each other and then daddy said 'bit*h' and mommy cried, then she hit him on the head."

Just like my son when he was 6, decided to "pop wind" (f@rt) really loud in the drugstore where everyone waits for prescriptions. He had no shame. It was the one at Cameron Village where all the dear old ladies were waiting for their meds, sitting in chairs. DS let er rip, everyone pretended it didn't happen. I was dying. DYING. Finally he looked up at me, hands in pockets, smiling and said loudly: "You're trying really hard not to laugh, aren't you Mom?"

Everyone then let go their held-back laughter. That was one day where I wasn't proud to be known as his mom. He's gonna be 26 soon. But kids will say what they think, no matter what, when they are young.

Star12
08-18-2008, 10:54 AM
Nancy could have come home and taken her own clothes off herself. Maybe she was getting into the shower. Maybe she had taken her clothes off and gone straight to bed, BUT that would put her in the girls bedroom where she slept. Maybe he "got" Nancy before she went to bed. Most likely. In bed, she would have been in the child's bedroom.

Maybe she never made it upstairs.

Much has been made of NC sleeping with her keys in the girls room.

This came from one of NC's affiants. Another said she had her own room. IMO, Nancy probably did NOT sleep with her children on a regular, on-going basis, with her keys in her pockets. And this could have been an incident she related prior to her involvement with TS.

Just something I have been thinking about.

Star12
08-18-2008, 11:01 AM
thanks star. helpful. that fits w reports re the person who found the body. so, in dry condition, that red/orange clay wouldn't necessarily get on the perp's shoes, or not bad enough for a detergent with bleach to take care of :).

however, IMO, an athlete like brad would likely have expensive tennis shoes & i can't imagine him wanting to dump good quality shoes OR washing them.

The soil at the site is a light tan, not the staining red clay.

2Daughters1Dog
08-18-2008, 11:01 AM
I've been gone 10 days. What's a summary of the latest developments in your theories of how he killed her and disposed of her body, etc?

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 11:06 AM
If anyone cares to see some search warrants for what all is involved - warrants in the Michelle Young case were released today - check the Michelle Young forum at the end of thread 23 for the link

Will give you a good idea of what has to be presented to obtain a warrant, the kinds of things searched for and recovered.

Just thought you all might find the probable cause requirements interesting.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 11:07 AM
I've been gone 10 days. What's a summary of the latest developments in your theories of how he killed her and disposed of her body, etc?


No new developments coming from LE - you didn't miss anything there. There will be a hearing today about unsealing the warrant for the residence.

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 11:25 AM
I've been thinking about how NC told a friend that Bella (age 4) had started regressing in that she had begun to "poop and pee" in her pants again. Something must have really been bothering her for that to happen. Messing up your pants at that age is awful for the child to experience. I wonder what Bella had heard and seen between the parents in the last months.

I wonder if BC got physical/verbal in a way very scary to a child in front of Bella. Sounds like he had before, according to NC's friends and family. Very scary thing to think about. Bella and Katie could very well just come out and talk about things they've seen and heard. You know how a kid will suddenly come out and innocently tell something in kindergarten, or in public somewhere: "My Dadd'ys got a penis. It's really funny." Or, "My mommy and daddy were yelling at each other and then daddy said 'bit*h' and mommy cried, then she hit him on the head."

Just like my son when he was 6, decided to "pop wind" (f@rt) really loud in the drugstore where everyone waits for prescriptions. He had no shame. It was the one at Cameron Village where all the dear old ladies were waiting for their meds, sitting in chairs. DS let er rip, everyone pretended it didn't happen. I was dying. DYING. Finally he looked up at me, hands in pockets, smiling and said loudly: "You're trying really hard not to laugh, aren't you Mom?"

Everyone then let go their held-back laughter. That was one day where I wasn't proud to be known as his mom. He's gonna be 26 soon. But kids will say what they think, no matter what, when they are young.

4 year olds seem to be very aware of what's going on. also, it's the age where kids often have very big attachment/abandonment issues. i agree that something big was upsetting her---it's one of the main reason that kids regression with peeing/pooping. often transitions w separations/divorces engender major adjustment issues w 4 year olds. poor bella---either she knew that they were going to separate, or she was hearing terrible discussions that really upset her. things must have felt really bad to bella---

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 11:27 AM
If anyone cares to see some search warrants for what all is involved - warrants in the Michelle Young case were released today - check the Michelle Young forum at the end of thread 23 for the link

Will give you a good idea of what has to be presented to obtain a warrant, the kinds of things searched for and recovered.

Just thought you all might find the probable cause requirements interesting.

thanks. will be helpful

Skittles
08-18-2008, 11:29 AM
I bet Skittles is going - whew - I escaped this third degree process

:D :D :D

Hey, I heard that!!

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 11:30 AM
The soil at the site is a light tan, not the staining red clay.

thanks.

Skittles
08-18-2008, 11:43 AM
IIRC, BC and NC had previously been looking for a larger home. The developer of this area is Toll Bros., and the area they had finally, sorta, settled on was in a different location, closer to RTP, but which also was being developed by Toll Bros. However, no money actually exchanged hands, IMO, because of the marital strife. I'm pretty sure BC would have been aware of this area.

Yes. I knew the development was there because I saw the sign for Toll Brothers on Holly Springs Rd. I hadn't been into the development, but I knew of it. Also that development had a home on the Parade of Homes tour last fall, so anyone who saw the map or book for the Parade would have known about it as well.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 12:09 PM
Hey, I heard that!!


Happy weren't you ?

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

Skittles
08-18-2008, 12:35 PM
Happy weren't you ?

:rolling::rolling::rolling:

:Banane10:

I wouldn't have been much help with the time-related questions anyway.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 12:41 PM
:Banane10:

I wouldn't have been much help with the time-related questions anyway.

That Zoe - man she had it in her head - she rocks ! Pretty awesome.

Skittles
08-18-2008, 01:08 PM
OK, here's my thoughts about Lifetime Fitness trip:

1) If he didn't murder Nancy, he's out looking around her normal running routes and is very close to LTF, he, on a whim, decides to stop in there to see if they have seen her.

2) If he did murder Nancy, he could've been driving around like he said "looking" for her, spots LTF and decides it would be a good place that he could be seen looking for her (on camera, person to person, just so someone could actually verify he was out looking).

I don't think he went there to check her in to make it appear she was there. I would imagine that there would be too much activity in LTF for him to be putting evidence in lockers. I would also think that attempting to dump any evidence in a dumpster at that time of day would be too visible.

I've never been to LTF so I can't attest to how crowded it would be on a Saturday afternoon. I do know that the gym I belong to has a pretty steady stream of people on Saturdays.

Yes, your 1) and 2) are very possible.

LTF is very busy on Saturdays, so besides the cameras there could be lots of witnesses.

As for stashing evidence in lockers, it's not as if he'd be pulling a bloody knife out of his pocket. He could just be sticking a gym bag in a locker.

I still don't think it's likely he hid stuff at LTF, I was just trying to figure a way it might be possible.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 01:18 PM
Don't forget about the hearing today 2:30 Raleigh time.

Doubt the warrant for the house will be unsealed but you never know what might slip out of a lawyers mouth.

Skittles
08-18-2008, 01:32 PM
I'll be hitting "refresh" on the local media sites!

Roy23
08-18-2008, 01:36 PM
If anyone cares to see some search warrants for what all is involved - warrants in the Michelle Young case were released today - check the Michelle Young forum at the end of thread 23 for the link

Will give you a good idea of what has to be presented to obtain a warrant, the kinds of things searched for and recovered.

Just thought you all might find the probable cause requirements interesting.



Good stuff, RC. Very enlightening.

christine2448
08-18-2008, 01:55 PM
It's help a mod month. (ok, I made it up)

If you see someone being rude, attacking, doing anything against TOS (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159), please hit that little triangle that is on the top right of every post.

#1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2511775&postcount=1) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/report.php?p=2511775) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/ip.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/postings.php?do=getip&p=2511775)


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/report.php?p=2512999) <-----


DO NOT QUOTE a post you think 'should not be here' or that you are alerting to....it just takes us more time to delete all the deleted quoted posts.

:blowkiss: TIA

carolinalady
08-18-2008, 02:14 PM
Yes, your 1) and 2) are very possible.

LTF is very busy on Saturdays, so besides the cameras there could be lots of witnesses.

As for stashing evidence in lockers, it's not as if he'd be pulling a bloody knife out of his pocket. He could just be sticking a gym bag in a locker.

I still don't think it's likely he hid stuff at LTF, I was just trying to figure a way it might be possible.

Even him putting a gym bag in a locker would seem odd if he was there "looking" for his wife. I'm sure someone would've noticed him being in the locker room. No reason to look in the men's locker room for a woman.

Skittles
08-18-2008, 02:38 PM
ABC 11 (WTVD) may have gotten ahead of itself. One news heading (at 1:34 PM) says "Judge rules to not unseal Cooper warrants" but the article talks about the upcoming hearing.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6334284

Skittles
08-18-2008, 02:39 PM
Even him putting a gym bag in a locker would seem odd if he was there "looking" for his wife. I'm sure someone would've noticed him being in the locker room. No reason to look in the men's locker room for a woman.

That's true.

jumpstreet
08-18-2008, 02:41 PM
ABC 11 (WTVD) may have gotten ahead of itself. One news heading (at 1:34 PM) says "Judge rules to not unseal Cooper warrants" but the article talks about the upcoming hearing.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6334284

They no doubt already know what's going to happen... :)
(well, it's a reasonable prediction to make anyway)

Skittles
08-18-2008, 02:49 PM
They no doubt already know what's going to happen... :)
(well, it's a reasonable prediction to make anyway)

Perhaps I should have posted it in the psychic thread.

sunflowers
08-18-2008, 03:08 PM
Perhaps I should have posted it in the psychic thread.

lol :)

EntreNous
08-18-2008, 03:33 PM
Perhaps I should have posted it in the psychic thread.

:spit:

lunarmodule
08-18-2008, 03:37 PM
Cooper search warrants will stay sealed until September

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3396174/

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 03:46 PM
Cooper search warrants will stay sealed until September

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3396174/

Sept 2 is in 2 weeks. I would've thought Judge Stephens would have extended the date by 30 days, giving enough time for DNA to come back if it is going to take 60 days as some have indicated.

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 03:49 PM
That surprises me too, Mom. Wanna place bets that this date is further extended by another motion from the DA?

lunarmodule
08-18-2008, 03:50 PM
Sept 2 is in 2 weeks. I would've thought Judge Stephens would have extended the date by 30 days, giving enough time for DNA to come back if it is going to take 60 days as some have indicated.

Methinks the noose may be tightening...

from the N&O:

Stephens told prosecutors he would extend the seal beyond Sept. 2 only if there was an extraordinary unusual occurence.

Extraordinary unusual??

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 03:51 PM
IIRC, BC and NC had previously been looking for a larger home. The developer of this area is Toll Bros., and the area they had finally, sorta, settled on was in a different location, closer to RTP, but which also was being developed by Toll Bros. However, no money actually exchanged hands, IMO, because of the marital strife. I'm pretty sure BC would have been aware of this area.

This makes sense if they were looking at a Toll Bros. home to purchase.

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 03:53 PM
Methinks the noose may be tightening...

from the N&O:

Stephens told prosecutors he would extend the seal beyond Sept. 2 only if there was an extraordinary unusual occurence.

Extraordinary unusual??

They must believe they'll have DNA/forensic tests complete and back by then. But if those tests are not back then perhaps that would qualify as "extraordinary." I don't know...legalese is a whole different language sometimes. :confused:

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 03:54 PM
Of course there is no rule that once SWs become public information a POI has to be arrested then and there. The investigation can continue...further testing can be done...it doesn't mean there WILL be an arrest.

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 03:59 PM
Methinks the noose may be tightening...

from the N&O:

Stephens told prosecutors he would extend the seal beyond Sept. 2 only if there was an extraordinary unusual occurence.

Extraordinary unusual??

That was my 1st thought....cuffs and badges are getting shined.

Could Stephens mean they don't need to wait on DNA and he feels fairly confident there is enough to go get ole BC and this is a way of putting the pressure on LE with this date?

Next GJ might just be the date to watch for.:)

lunarmodule
08-18-2008, 04:37 PM
And the "extraordinary unusual"...not just extraordinary (the DNA results indicate another suspect)...not just unusual (the DNA is not completed). I'm thinking evidence of an alien invasion or something would have to occur to keep these sealed past the 2nd!

ETA: In other words, the DA either has his case together or he doesn't. I'm betting he does, this extra time allows for a few i's to be dotted.

macd
08-18-2008, 04:57 PM
I think the promise to unseal in two weeks was more throwing a bone to the media's lawyers. It's the media that's asking for the unsealing. By signaling that the info will come out soon, the media's lawyers don't have much room to complain at this point, and have no reason to appeal. It cuts down on the circus atmosphere.

I saw kudos to the police, DA, and judge for keeping the investigation quiet and professional. (As much as the voyeurs in all of us would like to see more info now.) :)

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 05:02 PM
That was my 1st thought....cuffs and badges are getting shined.

Could Stephens mean they don't need to wait on DNA and he feels fairly confident there is enough to go get ole BC and this is a way of putting the pressure on LE with this date?

Next GJ might just be the date to watch for.:)

It would not surprise me to find out that some select DNA samples were submitted to a private lab and the results returned within a week.

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 05:02 PM
I say kudos to the police, DA, and judge for keeping the investigation quiet and professional. (As much as the voyeurs in all of us would like to see more info now.) :)

absolutely! they are doing this the right way.

EntreNous
08-18-2008, 05:07 PM
Could they still be waiting on some autopsy tests? That's what I'm thinking anyway.

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 05:08 PM
Prosecutors asked for 1 month, but was granted 2 weeks.

I have the image of Judge Stephens tapping his pen saying who needs to wait for DNA with all you have, results will be here in fair time. Come on ladies and gentlemen, get those i's dotted and t's crossed.:deal:

Reporters your wait is almost over..:camera:

macd
08-18-2008, 05:09 PM
It would not surprise me to find out that some select DNA samples were submitted to a private lab and the results returned within a week.
Gack! I hope they don't use DNA Security of Burlington, infamous for the Nifong frame-up case.

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 05:13 PM
It would not surprise me to find out that some select DNA samples were submitted to a private lab and the results returned within a week.

I wouldn't be surprised either RC.

Also as we mentioned ealier and someone found the article, BC had blood taken. If NC had blood under her nails they can get the blood type from the dry blood. A possible quicker scenario if the DNA isn't ready...I do hope it is.

I feel this is a sign that the GJ is going to be hearing this the next time they meet.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 05:19 PM
Gack! I hope they don't use DNA Security of Burlington, infamous for the Nifong frame-up case.


They don't. :)

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 05:20 PM
I feel this is a sign that the GJ is going to be hearing this the next time they meet.

Wow! So you think they're ready to roll, eh?

fran
08-18-2008, 05:21 PM
I just said the same thing on the Grand Jury thread, mom. I think the judge is confident they will have what they need by next week in time for the next GJ and the perp will be arrested by the Sept. 2 release date.

JMHO
fran

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 05:21 PM
I wouldn't be surprised either RC.

Also as we mentioned ealier and someone found the article, BC had blood taken. If NC had blood under her nails they can get the blood type from the dry blood. A possible quicker scenario if the DNA isn't ready...I do hope it is.

I feel this is a sign that the GJ is going to be hearing this the next time they meet.


GJ's don't get me too excited Mom - someone could already be indicted and we wouldn't know it. Won't know it until the arrest warrant is executed and I believe in NC that can be up to 180 days after the indictment.

Star12
08-18-2008, 05:21 PM
Somehow, the abc version doesn't sound quite as promising...

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6334284

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 05:27 PM
Somehow, the abc version doesn't sound quite as promising...

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6334284


Wonder if Willoughby believes the case of Michelle Young fits into that "little longer" category. And good for the Media lawyer - she made a good argument on behalf of her clients.

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 05:28 PM
GJ's don't get me too excited Mom - someone could already be indicted and we wouldn't know it. Won't know it until the arrest warrant is executed and I believe in NC that can be up to 180 days after the indictment.

I'm not getting any hopes up either. For all we know they may have a long way to go yet. And even if DNA is back, it doesn't mean there WILL be any link between NC and her killer. They need some link somewhere...

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 05:29 PM
Somehow, the abc version doesn't sound quite as promising...

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6334284

I take it that Willoughby would love to have all the tests back 1st since he says they are still conducting tests.
Like anything they would love to have every single ounce of evidence in when they do the arrest and this might not be the case. IMO

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 05:43 PM
I take it that Willoughby would love to have all the tests back 1st since he says they are still conducting tests.
Like anything they would love to have every single ounce of evidence in when they do the arrest and this might not be the case. IMO

Just skim pages 2 - 8 to see what Willoughby has in the Michelle Young case - guaranteed you will be asking yourself W T H ?

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/08/12/3365337/1219081477-20080818133406629.pdf

Just saying, no need to get excited about anything anytime soon.

ncnative
08-18-2008, 05:51 PM
Just skim pages 2 - 8 to see what Willoughby has in the Michelle Young case - guaranteed you will be asking yourself W T H ?

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/08/12/3365337/1219081477-20080818133406629.pdf

Just saying, no need to get excited about anything anytime soon.

So, RC--we shouldn't send Mom over to make sure BC doesn't try to leave the country after she follows him to the Walgreens where he purchases his hair dye for the occasion? Or should she alert the cadaver dogs outside the home in case he takes the easy route, so as not to have to become a permanent resident of our lovely prison?

jumpstreet
08-18-2008, 05:52 PM
Here's a question on the unsealing: I thought one of the reasons cited by the DA is that unsealing too early could result in comprising a defendant's right to a fair trial. If that's true, then seems like it would remain true all the way through to when the verdict is read (or at least until the contents of the SWs are presented during the trail).

Maybe I don't understand the point, but I took it to mean that if everyone here read "we found X, we were searching for X, and here's why, etc"; and they later DO arrest the person who was the target of the search, then the jury pool may have been biased by reading the information in the warrants out of context, etc.

[ Case in point: The Young warrants: After reading those, how many potential jurors won't to into a trial with at least a little bit of bias against the husband?? (if he is ultimately arrested) ]

Bottom line, if the concern about preventing a fair trail and prejudicing the public against a potential defendant is legitimate, and the subject of the warrants is still the subject of the investigation (and a potential suspect), then how is this concern mitigated at all unless the warrants are kept concealed (until either trial, or the person is no longer a suspect)

Am I making any sense?

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 05:53 PM
So, RC--we shouldn't send Mom over to make sure BC doesn't try to leave the country after she follows him to the Walgreens where he purchases his hair dye for the occasion? Or should she alert the cadaver dogs outside the home in case he takes the easy route, so as not to have to become a permanent resident of our lovely prison?

I have little doubt LE knows his every move. No need for Mom to place herself in the way of harm. He is IMO too arrogant to harm himself.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 05:56 PM
Here's a question on the unsealing: I thought one of the reasons cited by the DA is that unsealing too early could result in comprising a defendant's right to a fair trial. If that's true, then seems like it would remain true all the way through to when the verdict is read (or at least until the contents of the SWs are presented during the trail).

Maybe I don't understand the point, but I took it to mean that if everyone here read "we found X, we were searching for X, and here's why, etc"; and they later DO arrest the person who was the target of the search, then the jury pool may have been biased by reading the information in the warrants out of context, etc.

[ Case in point: The Young warrants: After reading those, how many potential jurors won't to into a trial with at least a little bit of bias against the husband?? (if he is ultimately arrested) ]

Bottom line, if the concern about preventing a fair trail and prejudicing the public against a potential defendant is legitimate, and the subject of the warrants is still the subject of the investigation (and a potential suspect), then how is this concern mitigated at all unless the warrants are kept concealed (until either trial, or the person is no longer a suspect)

Am I making any sense?

Its a BS excuse - thats why a ton of potential jurors are called in, fill out surveys, are questioned by lawyers on both sides, the judge, and the problem ones tossed out.

BS

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 06:00 PM
Just skim pages 2 - 8 to see what Willoughby has in the Michelle Young case - guaranteed you will be asking yourself W T H ?

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/08/12/3365337/1219081477-20080818133406629.pdf

Just saying, no need to get excited about anything anytime soon.


I did get a chance to see it, very interesting. There has to be more they are wanting from JY, especially a little chat. Shoe size doesn't match JY, and a gas receipt is needed, so it appears nothing is concrete

I guess the difference is BC talked, and has tangled himself in a web of lies. It shows on his affidavit, where he contradicts himself. There are a number of affidavits showing BC had motive and was abusive to NC Also a pending seperation.
IMO, 2 video's..HT and LTF will not to benefit BC. :bang:

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 06:03 PM
I did get a chance to see it, very interesting. There has to be more they are wanting from JY, especially a little chat. Shoe size doesn't match JY, and a gas receipt is needed, so it appears nothing is concrete

I guess the difference is BC talked, and has tangled himself in a web of lies. It shows on his affidavit, where he contradicts himself. There are a number of affidavits showing BC had motive and was abusive to NC Also a pending seperation.
IMO, 2 video's..HT and LTF will not to benefit BC. :bang:

Don't disagree, just saying Willoughby is shall we say, very mild, and wants concrete before he budges out of his office.

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 06:17 PM
So, RC--we shouldn't send Mom over to make sure BC doesn't try to leave the country after she follows him to the Walgreens where he purchases his hair dye for the occasion? Or should she alert the cadaver dogs outside the home in case he takes the easy route, so as not to have to become a permanent resident of our lovely prison?

I actually thought about doing paper delivery :Bicicleta:and requesting his route so I could check in early each morning to make sure he is not loading items to go to the dump.

Also to stick little sticky notes inside the paper with sweet messages. :)

jumpstreet
08-18-2008, 06:32 PM
Today's events did at least confirm that some evidence has been submitted for DNA processing, and is not yet back. [ Before that was strong speculation on the board, but not known with 100% certainty ]

Star12
08-18-2008, 06:44 PM
I did get a chance to see it, very interesting. There has to be more they are wanting from JY, especially a little chat. Shoe size doesn't match JY, and a gas receipt is needed, so it appears nothing is concrete

I guess the difference is BC talked, and has tangled himself in a web of lies. It shows on his affidavit, where he contradicts himself. There are a number of affidavits showing BC had motive and was abusive to NC Also a pending seperation.
IMO, 2 video's..HT and LTF will not to benefit BC. :bang:

I thought I read that the recovered shoe matched the bloody shoeprint???

ETA: whoops! It was the shoe print in the stain on the deck that matched the shoeprint in the blood. Never mind. Or... hmmm, what if those shoes from DSW were returned for a size 10??

EntreNous
08-18-2008, 06:57 PM
I have little doubt LE knows his every move. No need for Mom to place herself in the way of harm. He is IMO too arrogant to harm himself.

I agree RC. If he talked about suicide last winter I really think it was just manipulation to get his way. Not unlike a child would threaten to hold their breath or throw a kicking, screaming fit for what they want. I don't think he'll off himself.

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 07:08 PM
I agree RC. If he talked about suicide last winter I really think it was just manipulation to get his way. Not unlike a child would threaten to hold their breath or throw a kicking, screaming fit for what they want. I don't think he'll off himself.

I agree - manipulation and a way to get what he wanted. If he wanted to die, he would have. However, it does show a proclivity for thoughts about death, serious or not. Those thoughts were transferred to his wife - he won't kill himself.

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 07:24 PM
So RC.....I thought I would give you a little surprise tonight on here since you did so well on your task last night.

BOY, did I ever get the surprise of my life instead.

My daughter wanted to go to Chick Filet for a shake..I thought I would get you the time estimates if BC went to HT via Cary Pkwy & Tryon. Getting exact times, come to a stop light and who do you think passes me?:waitasec:

I got the best look at him right in his window....He was acting strange just how he was driving. I turned down Lilly Atkins to see if that is where he was headed, but he had not.

So I head on to Chick Filet and get ready to turn onto Tryon Road, look up and there he is again this time in my rear view mirror!! He whipped into the shopping center so fast I had no time to know where he went.

So that is part 1 of my update.:)

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 07:26 PM
So RC.....I thought I would give you a little surprise tonight on here since you did so well on your task last night.

BOY, did I ever get the surprise of my life instead.

My daughter wanted to go to Chick Filet for a shake..I thought I would get you the time estimates if BC went to HT via Cary Pkwy & Tryon. Getting exact times, come to a stop light and who do you think passes me?:waitasec:

I got the best look at him right in his window....He was acting strange just how he was driving. I turned down Lilly Atkins to see if that is where he was headed, but he had not.

So I head on to Chick Filet and get ready to turn onto Tryon Road, look up and there he is again this time in my rear view mirror!! He whipped into the shopping center so fast I had no time to know where he went.

So that is part 1 of my update.:)


So who is following who ? Maybe you should be careful.


Maybe he was in a hurry to get some milk, juice and detergent.

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 07:40 PM
So who is following who ? Maybe you should be careful.


Maybe he was in a hurry to get some milk, juice and detergent.

:floorlaugh: You were quick on that one!

So needless to say I didn't get the times I wanted to surprise you with....RC

He does wear bright yellow, has short sleeve shirts and can go out in public without a cap.

Dang...NCNATIVE where were you tonight? I was actually going to joke with you and tell you I waved and you didnt' wave back...then when I looked up BC was there....:eek:

raisincharlie
08-18-2008, 08:08 PM
:floorlaugh: You were quick on that one!

So needless to say I didn't get the times I wanted to surprise you with....RC

He does wear bright yellow, has short sleeve shirts and can go out in public without a cap.

Dang...NCNATIVE where were you tonight? I was actually going to joke with you and tell you I waved and you didnt' wave back...then when I looked up BC was there....:eek:


No problem about the times. Would be better done at 630 or so in the morning on a weekend anyhow.

I was serious about the milk and juice and detergent. I will always associate his name with making trips to the store early in the morning to get those items - superdad. :crazy:

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 08:14 PM
:floorlaugh:

He does wear bright yellow, has short sleeve shirts and can go out in public without a cap.

:eek: @ mom!

Be careful Mom!!

BTW, I'm with Star12 right now. We each have our laptops and are sitting outside of {not JJ}, having a soda. ;-)

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 08:17 PM
No problem about the times. Would be better done at 630 or so in the morning on a weekend anyhow.

I was serious about the milk and juice and detergent. I will always associate his name with making trips to the store early in the morning to get those items - superdad. :crazy:

Yup, in his white BMW with the broken license tag bolt...that is now fixed.

He might as well do all the running around he wants now because soon he won't have that luxury. :clap:

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 08:21 PM
:eek: @ mom!

Be careful Mom!!

BTW, I'm with Star12 right now. We each have our laptops and are sitting outside of {not JJ}, having a soda. ;-)

Hi to both of you! Go by and see the xxxx doesn't even have his white bow around his mailbox anymore, but everyone else still have theirs...I guess NC is already forgotten in his mind.:loser:

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 08:23 PM
Hi to both of you! Go by and see the xxxx doesn't even have his white bow around his mailbox anymore, but everyone else still have theirs...I guess NC is already forgotten in his mind.:loser:

Oh interesting...however we are not close to there either...and unless he has wireless access outside of his house we're not moving from this spot! :-)

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 08:23 PM
:eek: @ mom!

Be careful Mom!!

BTW, I'm with Star12 right now. We each have our laptops and are sitting outside of {not JJ}, having a soda. ;-)

I know where you are I bet!!!!! Does it begin with a H and T???:crazy:

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 08:27 PM
I know where you are I bet!!!!! Does it begin with a H and T???:crazy:

LOLOL.... NO. We are not on that side of town!

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 08:28 PM
Yup, in his white BMW with the broken license tag bolt...that is now fixed.

What's your theory about this broken/hanging license tag?

momto3kids
08-18-2008, 08:29 PM
Just saw this on News14 Carolina...

Most of the homicides here ultimately result in arrests -- some of them happen immediately, some of them take a little longer,” said Wake County District Attorney Colon Willoughby. “But we think it's proper to do this right, not do it fast."

http://news14.com/content/headlines/598405/cooper-warrants-sealed-until-sept--2/Default.aspx

EntreNous
08-18-2008, 08:30 PM
Good, you're safer on the "wrong" side of the tracks these days. LOL

SleuthyGal
08-18-2008, 08:32 PM
Good, you're safer on the "wrong" side of the tracks these days. LOL

We're avoiding alll Chick-Fil-A's too!

EntreNous
08-18-2008, 08:36 PM
We're avoiding alll Chick-Fil-A's too!

:rolling: