View Full Version : Reasonable Doubt
krimekat
08-20-2008, 11:45 AM
I have not seen a dedicated thread regarding this subject but it has been discussed in many threads . . . I believe the Defense (Baez, Anthony's, etc.) is "building a case" of so much garbage that during the trial, there will be reasonable doubt to convict her of homicide . . .
Also, Baez himself has stated HE has told Casey not to talk to anyone . . . LE, family, friends. Lawyers usually consult their clients who are in serius trouble to CLAM UP. Otherwise, why would there be a need not to be honest with authorities: OCPD, Child Services, FBI, a pastor, a therapist, a fellow inmate.
JMHO -- Websleuths Rock!!! :rocker:
belleyes
08-20-2008, 11:56 AM
I have not seen a dedicated thread regarding this subject but it has been discussed in many threads . . . I believe the Defense (Baez, Anthony's, etc.) is "building a case" of so much garbage that during the trial, there will be reasonable doubt to convict her of homicide . . .
:
THANK YOU for this thread. I've been saying this for awhile. They have been building their defense since day 1. With so many questions, lies, twists and turns a jury will have a difficult time convicting "beyond a reasonable doubt". IMO having daddy's knowledge (of homicide cases) in LE and the "31"days to blur the time of death and evidence they have been creating doubt from the first day.
manatee
08-20-2008, 12:04 PM
THANK YOU for this thread. I've been saying this for awhile. They have been building their defense since day 1. With so many questions, lies, twists and turns a jury will have a difficult time convicting "beyond a reasonable doubt". IMO having daddy's knowledge (of homicide cases) in LE and the "31"days to blur the time of death and evidence they have been creating doubt from the first day.
Sorry. This is no OJ dream team. We've all seen and heard this before "garbage in garbage out." Baez is no Johny Cohran! So like Marc garagos with Scott Peterson, it will not work. The jury is already too smart for that.
I do think LE arrested Casey too soon. They should have used Tony and done the same thing that they did to Scott with Amber. :rolleyes:
krimekat
08-20-2008, 12:04 PM
I have not seen a dedicated thread regarding this subject but it has been discussed in many threads . . . I believe the Defense (Baez, Anthony's, etc.) is "building a case" of so much garbage that during the trial, there will be reasonable doubt to NOT convict her of homicide . . .
Also, Baez himself has stated HE has told Casey not to talk to anyone . . . LE, family, friends. Lawyers usually consult their clients who are in serius trouble to CLAM UP. Otherwise, why would there be a need not to be honest with authorities: OCPD, Child Services, FBI, a pastor, a therapist, a fellow inmate.
JMHO -- Websleuths Rock!!! :rocker:
Meant to say she would NOT be convicted
krimekat
08-20-2008, 12:05 PM
Sorry. This is no OJ dream team. We've all seen and heard this before "garbage in garbage out." Baez is no Johny Cohran! So like Marc garagos with Scott Peterson, it will not work. The jury is already too smart for that.
I do think LE arrested Casey too soon. They should have used Tony and done the same thing that they did to Scott with Amber. :rolleyes:
totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
krimekat
08-20-2008, 12:10 PM
Sorry. This is no OJ dream team. We've all seen and heard this before "garbage in garbage out." Baez is no Johny Cohran! So like Marc garagos with Scott Peterson, it will not work. The jury is already too smart for that.
I do think LE arrested Casey too soon. They should have used Tony and done the same thing that they did to Scott with Amber. :rolleyes:
I was SHOCKED when Baez said to Greta that he could not respond to her questions (the other night On The Record) b/c it is part of his Opening Statement? Almost as damning as " . . . my daughter's been looking for. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today. But I can't find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. There’s something wrong. I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car." 911 call #3
Duh :bang:
LoriKeet
08-20-2008, 12:25 PM
I also think Baez and company think the public from which a jury will be selected is stupid!
As far as I'm concerned in order to propose arguments of "reasonable doubt" one would at least have to have a REASONABLE accounting/time line of what REALLY happened!
NOTHING I have heard from ANY of the Anthony's is the least bit REASONABLE to consider. Even before Cindy started flapping her gums, the sheer FACT that Casey did not report her daughter missing for at least 31 DAYS, is a huge red flag, and casts the most reasonable doubt in my mind that she is innocent!
LI_Mom
08-20-2008, 12:27 PM
Sorry. This is no OJ dream team. We've all seen and heard this before "garbage in garbage out." Baez is no Johny Cohran! So like Marc garagos with Scott Peterson, it will not work. The jury is already too smart for that.
I do think LE arrested Casey too soon. They should have used Tony and done the same thing that they did to Scott with Amber. :rolleyes:
I agree with everyone else.... this has ALWAYS been about protecting Casey against the eventual homicide charges. For her lawyer AND for her family.
But sorry..... refusing to cooperate with LE to find your own 3 year old baby is SO offensive, SO despicable, SO inhuman.... I think the only way she'll beat the rap is if the jury is presented with a VERY solid defense & LOGICAL & SANE reason why she behaved the way she did.
If by some miracle a jury fails to come back with a guilty verdict, Casey should contact OJ & see how that worked out for him. Maybe Casey & OJ can even host an annual golf tournament.....
"Our Search for Zenaida-Real Killer Golf Tournament"
Fandy
08-20-2008, 12:33 PM
Casey secured herself a lawyer the minute she was arrested? (I missed the beginning first week of this case).
She was concerned about covering her actions from the get-go. But I agree, refusing to cooperate to find YOUR OWN CHILD is more than offensive. Every juror will have this train of thought....jmo of course.....because they are normal compassionate people.
krimekat
08-20-2008, 12:34 PM
IMaybe Casey & OJ can even host an annual golf tournament....."Our Search for Zenaida-Real Killer Golf Tournament"
Awesome!!!! :rolling:
french75
08-20-2008, 12:35 PM
I was thinking that reasonable doubt can be established based on the fact that the car was out of her possession for weeks a few weeks. Other people had access to that car when it was in the tow yard. One of those people could have used the car to move a body, then there's the decomp smell. Something from the car could have been removed and put in the yard so there's the explanation for the hit in the yard.
krimekat
08-20-2008, 12:35 PM
Casey secured herself a lawyer the minute she was arrested? (I missed the beginning first week of this case).
She was concerned about covering her actions from the get-go. But I agree, refusing to cooperate to find YOUR OWN CHILD is more than offensive. Every juror will have this train of thought....jmo of course.....because they are normal compassionate people.
Yes, retained within DAYS of being in jail. Maybe her former LE buddy provided her the idea of NOT SPEAKING . . . jmho
manatee
08-20-2008, 12:37 PM
.......
If by some miracle a jury fails to come back with a guilty verdict, Casey should contact OJ & see how that worked out for him. Maybe Casey & OJ can even host an annual golf tournament.....
"Our Search for Zenaida-Real Killer Golf Tournament"
:clap::clap:
AND
Don't forget Scott P and the devil worshippers that took Lacy for the baby!!! They are out there
Jolynna
08-20-2008, 12:50 PM
I also think Baez and company think the public from which a jury will be selected is stupid!
As far as I'm concerned in order to propose arguments of "reasonable doubt" one would at least have to have a REASONABLE accounting/time line of what REALLY happened!
NOTHING I have heard from ANY of the Anthony's is the least bit REASONABLE to consider. Even before Cindy started flapping her gums, the sheer FACT that Casey did not report her daughter missing for at least 31 DAYS, is a huge red flag, and casts the most reasonable doubt in my mind that she is innocent!
But, there is actual evidence she is guilty of what?
Was she negligent? Did Caylee die in a hot car? Or fall in family pool?
Did she deliberately kill her daughter because Caylee was an impediment to a relationship with Anthony Lazzaro? Or to get even with her mother?
Did a stranger find Caylee sleeping in the car while Casey partied, molest her in a dark parking lot and then stuff Caylee's body in the trunk? (kind of like the prosecutorial theory in the Jon Benet case)
At this early point in the case while evidence is still out to be brought in that COULD pinpoint WHAT happened, the state isn't going to be rushed into filing charges.
We all know Casey is guilty of something, but I am not sure how the state is going to PROVE a case when they don't yet know what the something is.
MOO
manatee
08-20-2008, 12:51 PM
But, there is actual evidence she is guilty of what?
Was she negligent? Did Caylee die in a hot car? Or fall in family pool?
Did she deliberately kill her daughter because Caylee was an impediment to a relationship with Anthony Lazzaro? Or to get even with her mother?
Did a stranger find Caylee sleeping in the car while Casey partied, molest her in a dark parking lot and then stuff Caylee's body in the trunk? (kind of like the prosecutorial theory in the Jon Benet case)
At this early point in the case while evidence is still out to be brought in that COULD pinpoint WHAT happened, the state isn't going to be rushed into filing charges.
We all know Casey is guilty of something, but I am not sure how the state is going to PROVE a case when they don't yet know what the something is.
MOO
I think: WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SOMETHING IS. Not yelling, just to clarify. I have faith that LE is holding all the cards and not showing Baez nor the defense yet.
krimekat
08-20-2008, 12:56 PM
I think: WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SOMETHING IS. Not yelling, just to clarify. I have faith that LE is holding all the cards and not showing Baez nor the defense yet.
I totally agree. They do not have to show us anything . . . until Discovery
LI_Mom
08-20-2008, 01:09 PM
:clap::clap:
AND
Don't forget Scott P and the devil worshippers that took Lacy for the baby!!! They are out there
Yes, but at least the jury got it right in Scott's case.
It's in a whole different realm when an innocent child is the victim.
Baez should try to seat a jury who have never had any children in their families.... anyone who has had personal experience with a 2 year old is going to have a BIG problem understanding how a (allegedly) human mother could be so cavalier about losing her own child.
I think it's ALL over for Casey the minute the prosecution plays the tape of her begging, pleading, demanding that someone give her Tony's phone number. Poor girl was frantic that she was apart from this very special person in her life........ so we know she understands that if you're trying to find someone you must ASK people for their help.
Fandy
08-20-2008, 01:16 PM
the first phone call asking for Tony's phone number along with Cindy's 3rd 911 call will make it difficult for any jury to NOT convict her.
kidz110
08-20-2008, 01:27 PM
........ so we know she understands that if you're trying to find someone you must ASK people for their help.
I love that line! You are so right.
Amberjack
08-20-2008, 01:30 PM
IMO Baez' and Anthony's "Reasonable Doubt" :liar:
* Casey owed someone money
They took Caylee until debt was to be paid
* Casey accidentally left Caylee in the car & the car was stolen by them...Along with Caylee.
* A "babysitter" obsessed with little Caylee moved away from Florida with Caylee
* Casey had left Caylee with friends & one of them harmed Caylee
* The true father showed up & took Caylee for himself & his family
* While Casey was buying drugs in a bad neighborhood she left Caylee hidden in the trunk of the car...for too long.....
:curses::curses::curses: And, I have some swamp land in Florida I'm selling....
Are you "buying"?
jeepgirlva
08-20-2008, 01:39 PM
the first phone call asking for Tony's phone number along with Cindy's 3rd 911 call will make it difficult for any jury to NOT convict her.
Does anyone know did she ever talk to Tony? ...If i was on the jury i could convict her from the 911 calls and the first call home from jail you hear no urgence in her voice at all about Caylee ..now you do hear it when she is trying to get Tony's # ...
krimekat
08-20-2008, 01:43 PM
Does anyone know did she ever talk to Tony? ...If i was on the jury i could convict her from the 911 calls and the first call home from jail you hear no urgence in her voice at all about Caylee ..now you do hear it when she is trying to get Tony's # ...
The only thing I can remember is Clint (TonEs old roomie until 1 July) said they BOTH have distanced themselves from the Fusion crowd & Casey during his interview with Greta OTR
kgeaux
08-20-2008, 01:54 PM
I also think Baez and company think the public from which a jury will be selected is stupid!
As far as I'm concerned in order to propose arguments of "reasonable doubt" one would at least have to have a REASONABLE accounting/time line of what REALLY happened!
NOTHING I have heard from ANY of the Anthony's is the least bit REASONABLE to consider. Even before Cindy started flapping her gums, the sheer FACT that Casey did not report her daughter missing for at least 31 DAYS, is a huge red flag, and casts the most reasonable doubt in my mind that she is innocent!
I don't think the defense attorney wishes to have jurors who are stupid. He will wish to have jurors who know that everything they've heard on tv is not necessarily true; he will want jurors who will come to the trial with a blank slate and make a decision as to guilt or not based ONLY on the evidence presented.
Having said that, I will certainly agree that what we've heard from the crimetainment shows and family members make Casey seem guilty of SOMETHING. Whether she murdered the child, is attempting to cover up an accidental death, or sold her baby on the black market, she certainly seems guilty of something. The prosecutor just needs to find out WHICH scenario is most likely and somehow gather evidence that amounts to more than what they seem to have available to them today.
Vegas Bride
08-20-2008, 02:12 PM
What kind of juror is the defense going to look for? Could any mother sit on that jury and think she's innocent when she did nothing to look for her missing 2 year old for a month and then when she's found out, refuses to talk?
As a rule, I do believe women can "see through" other women easier than a man can. It will be very interesting to see how many women will be on that jury.
VB
Hisimage
08-20-2008, 02:26 PM
But, there is actual evidence she is guilty of what?
Was she negligent? Did Caylee die in a hot car? Or fall in family pool?
Did she deliberately kill her daughter because Caylee was an impediment to a relationship with Anthony Lazzaro? Or to get even with her mother?
Did a stranger find Caylee sleeping in the car while Casey partied, molest her in a dark parking lot and then stuff Caylee's body in the trunk? (kind of like the prosecutorial theory in the Jon Benet case)
At this early point in the case while evidence is still out to be brought in that COULD pinpoint WHAT happened, the state isn't going to be rushed into filing charges.
We all know Casey is guilty of something, but I am not sure how the state is going to PROVE a case when they don't yet know what the something is.
MOO
I was watching NG the other night and the woman who was filling in for her quoted Casey as saying she did not report Caylee missing because "theyre going to try to pin this on me". The substitute for NG said something to the effect of that proves her guilt. My question is: What is the "This" they are trying to pin on you? I don't get why that question wasn't addressed.
Did anybody else notice this ?
Fandy
08-20-2008, 02:34 PM
Casey stated this in one of her early phone calls. She was speaking to Christina or Lee...
(I am starting to memorize the phone calls i've heard them so much on TV)....I liked the wording another poster used "Crimetainment"..it's so true
Jolynna
08-20-2008, 04:00 PM
What kind of juror is the defense going to look for? Could any mother sit on that jury and think she's innocent when she did nothing to look for her missing 2 year old for a month and then when she's found out, refuses to talk?
As a rule, I do believe women can "see through" other women easier than a man can. It will be very interesting to see how many women will be on that jury.
VB
For sure Casey is a bad mother and was obsessed with TonE.
There may be evidence Caylee's body was in the bad trunk.
I think it would be easy to find a jury to convict Casey of those things.
But, who here can convict Casey without ANY doubt of deliberate murder? Look at the pictures of Caylee and Casey together... Who can say, after looking at the happy pictures, this mother planned to kill Caylee and that it was not an accidental death?
What if Caylee's body offers proof of homicide?
Now there isn't enough evidence to prove that. But, if investigators are patient, there COULD be. That LE doesn't want their investigation to be rushed doesn't mean they don't have anything.
In my opinion, it means they believe there is more out there to get.
I am very sorry to say, I think it is too late to save Caylee. It is not too late to see that she gets full justice though.
IMO
LI_Mom
08-20-2008, 04:20 PM
But, who here can convict Casey without ANY doubt of deliberate murder? Look at the pictures of Caylee and Casey together... Who can say, after looking at the happy pictures, this mother planned to kill Caylee and that it was not an accidental death?
At first glance, the pictures APPEAR to show a loving mother, I agree.
When we stop & think about Casey & her 'history' we realize...
How long does it take to snap a photo.... it's easy to look happy for a split second.
What would the pictures show IF Casey was a REAL full time mother & not just a fill in when she wasn't off having fun with her friends?
Having a cute kid is a real attention getter.... it's a positive as long as your friends are still cooing over the kid.... what happens when having a toddler around starts to make your friends feel self-conscious about their own behavior... they're young & single & want to have fun.
Are they going to be relieved when they hear your daughter is with her grandmother or off with some 'babysitter?'
Is it important to you that you still fit in with the gang... even though you have grown up responsibilities that cut into your fun time?? What do you do?
Luzer
08-20-2008, 04:36 PM
What kind of juror is the defense going to look for? Could any mother sit on that jury and think she's innocent when she did nothing to look for her missing 2 year old for a month and then when she's found out, refuses to talk?
As a rule, I do believe women can "see through" other women easier than a man can. It will be very interesting to see how many women will be on that jury.
VB
I feel that whatever happened to Caylee was at the hands of Casey, but without a crime scene showing major blood loss, a body with trauma, or something like that, I do not see how I could be able to rightfully convict for anything other than negligent homicide or a manslaughter.
If the trunk evidence comes back showing Caylee's DNA from the cadaver fluids, then it would prove Caylee has died. It would not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, how she died. If she died from a hot car, accidental drowning, or something else, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, homicide or manslaughter.
When I listened to the phone calls, Casey sounded like one of the coldest, self-centered people around. I justl don't think that would be enough to convict her of 1st or 2nd degree murder. I would need proof of trauma. And, without trauma, I would have to go for a lesser charge of homicide.
Hopefully, LE will take their time to build up very substantial evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a murder was committed.
LI_Mom
08-20-2008, 04:43 PM
I feel that whatever happened to Caylee was at the hands of Casey, but without a crime scene showing major blood loss, a body with trauma, or something like that, I do not see how I could be able to rightfully convict for anything other than negligent homicide or a manslaughter.
If the trunk evidence comes back showing Caylee's DNA from the cadaver fluids, then it would prove Caylee has died. It would not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, how she died. If she died from a hot car, accidental drowning, or something else, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, homicide or manslaughter.
When I listened to the phone calls, Casey sounded like one of the coldest, self-centered people around. I justl don't think that would be enough to convict her of 1st or 2nd degree murder. I would need proof of trauma. And, without trauma, I would have to go for a lesser charge of homicide.
Hopefully, LE will take their time to build up very substantial evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a murder was committed.
Scott Peterson would have loved to have you on his jury.
But I hear what you're saying & don't disagree. Let's hope LE has a strong case that will put her away for a long, long, long time at the very least. (If she's guilty)
s1rebecca
08-20-2008, 04:56 PM
Please listen to all 3 911 tapes in their entirety. They tells the whole story. She concocted this story because her mom was putting her away and taking Caylee. She said right to her on the 1st call in the background if this is how its going to be, you will never see her again. Listen real close.
Luzer
08-20-2008, 05:43 PM
Scott Peterson would have loved to have you on his jury.
But I hear what you're saying & don't disagree. Let's hope LE has a strong case that will put her away for a long, long, long time at the very least. (If she's guilty)
Laci Peterson's body had cracked ribs, plus all of the missing body parts, and with that I could believe enough trauma was inflicted to cause death. So, I would have found Scott guilty.
I have lived with a sociopath, also, and I know how they act and what they are capable of. In my heart, I feel that whatever happened to Caylee was at the hands of Casey. But our court system requires proof to convict, not emotions. If we only needed emotions I would be the first to cast a guilty vote.
Again, this is my opinion. I am stating what I feel at this time concerning reasonable doubt for this situation.
kgeaux
08-20-2008, 05:44 PM
If the trunk evidence comes back showing Caylee's DNA from the cadaver fluids, then it would prove Caylee has died. It would not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, how she died. If she died from a hot car, accidental drowning, or something else, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, homicide or manslaughter.
Is anybody else starting to get worried about the evidence from the trunk? I'm thinking it would not take very long to determine if any DNA in the trunk belonged to Caylee, and not much more than two seconds to determine if any fluids came from a cadaver as opposed from a living person.......I'm starting to wonder if there IS any evidence from the trunk that will give prosecutors a hand-hold to base charges on.
JBean
08-20-2008, 05:47 PM
Is anybody else starting to get worried about the evidence from the trunk? I'm thinking it would not take very long to determine if any DNA in the trunk belonged to Caylee, and not much more than two seconds to determine if any fluids came from a cadaver as opposed from a living person.......I'm starting to wonder if there IS any evidence from the trunk that will give prosecutors a hand-hold to base charges on.
Hi Kgeaux. I think it is either exculpatory or culpatory but nothing in between. I think the pendulum is going to swing to one end or the other on this.
Luzer
08-20-2008, 06:08 PM
Is anybody else starting to get worried about the evidence from the trunk? I'm thinking it would not take very long to determine if any DNA in the trunk belonged to Caylee, and not much more than two seconds to determine if any fluids came from a cadaver as opposed from a living person.......I'm starting to wonder if there IS any evidence from the trunk that will give prosecutors a hand-hold to base charges on.
I am holding on to the hope that LE is not going to release the findings until they need to. They aren't required to release their finding, I don't think.
impatientredhead
08-20-2008, 07:00 PM
I feel that whatever happened to Caylee was at the hands of Casey, but without a crime scene showing major blood loss, a body with trauma, or something like that, I do not see how I could be able to rightfully convict for anything other than negligent homicide or a manslaughter.
If the trunk evidence comes back showing Caylee's DNA from the cadaver fluids, then it would prove Caylee has died. It would not prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, how she died. If she died from a hot car, accidental drowning, or something else, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, homicide or manslaughter.
When I listened to the phone calls, Casey sounded like one of the coldest, self-centered people around. I justl don't think that would be enough to convict her of 1st or 2nd degree murder. I would need proof of trauma. And, without trauma, I would have to go for a lesser charge of homicide.
Hopefully, LE will take their time to build up very substantial evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a murder was committed.
Casey's refusal to help with the investigation and not reporting it (laid against a backdrop of Fusian pics and witnesses saying she never said a word and was happy as could be) will go towards aggravating circumstances, and without a cause of death will be used to show intent/malicious will. If the forensics can prove Caylee was in the car I think you have a real shot at murder one.
Luzer
08-20-2008, 08:07 PM
Casey's refusal to help with the investigation and not reporting it (laid against a backdrop of Fusian pics and witnesses saying she never said a word and was happy as could be) will go towards aggravating circumstances, and without a cause of death will be used to show intent/malicious will. If the forensics can prove Caylee was in the car I think you have a real shot at murder one.
I hope so. If the judge says that can be considered, I certainly would.
panthera
08-20-2008, 09:14 PM
I was thinking that reasonable doubt can be established based on the fact that the car was out of her possession for weeks a few weeks. Other people had access to that car when it was in the tow yard. One of those people could have used the car to move a body, then there's the decomp smell. Something from the car could have been removed and put in the yard so there's the explanation for the hit in the yard.
To me, that speculation still wouldn't take away from the lies Casey told LE, photographed out partying and her not reporting Caylee missing. Evidence from the car, imo, would be considered as a bonus if I were on a jury. MOO
ketel0ne
08-20-2008, 09:21 PM
Reasonable doubt.
Bounty Hunter Leonard Padilla has been on every show he can be on all night including Greta. In each of these shows, what could be the "new" defense story had started to blossom via Leonard's casual remarks. The following assumes you know several things about this case thus far before reading further:
Who Casey called that wasn't a family member on June 16th (3 friends)
Where some of those people may have been or are at the present time (Georgia and Puerto Rico)
Which of these people are or were former law enforcement
In nearly every interview Leonard Padilla gave this evening, those pieces of information relate directly to the statements he made about what he believed may have happened and why he thinks Caylee is alive. As Casey's attorney Jose Baez said last night on Greta, the explanation of why Casey did not report Caylee missing for 31 days "would be covered in his opening statement" -- we think Leonard gave mondo hints about what that statement might contain tonight. For example:
Leonard said that he believed Casey gave her to a "friend" (who isn't the Gonzalez chick Casey named long ago) for a couple of days who didn't bring her back
He alluded to "Georgia" and "Puerto Rico" as where folks could be who have or have had Caylee
Jose's co-council Mike Walsh said in an MSNBC interview a couple weeks ago that one of Casey's closest friends "had mental issues"
Casey doesn't trust law enforcement
The allusion here is that one of the 3 friends would still have Caylee. (In weaving this tale, all defense parties involved would have to completely discount the car and it's contents - which we believe they have done for a while). In a murder or manslaughter defense to cast reasonable doubt, those friends would need to have an alibi for some period of time on June 16th when Caylee went missing. God forbid any of those people babysat Caylee on that day, or even just saw Casey and Caylee together that afternoon of June 16. Start thinking about it, folks. We can see this one coming, and why shouldn't we? Casey's been in jail for a month and had lots of time to create a new drama. This time though, it's going to affect people around her who DO know her.
NighTillDawn
08-20-2008, 10:18 PM
Laci Peterson's body had cracked ribs, plus all of the missing body parts, and with that I could believe enough trauma was inflicted to cause death. So, I would have found Scott guilty.
I have lived with a sociopath, also, and I know how they act and what they are capable of. In my heart, I feel that whatever happened to Caylee was at the hands of Casey. But our court system requires proof to convict, not emotions. If we only needed emotions I would be the first to cast a guilty vote.
Again, this is my opinion. I am stating what I feel at this time concerning reasonable doubt for this situation.
I'm not defending Scott P by any means, don't get me wrong, but he was also convicted without real proof of anything ( crime scene, blood evidence, etc ), and yet he sits on death row at San Quentin. What makes Casey so special? Scott P lied, Casey lied. Laci was missing, Caylee is missing. What is the difference between the two cases? A body...In Scott's case they waited for remains of Laci and Conner to wash ashore, and in this case Caylee has yet to surface. Also, Laci was an adult, Caylee is a child. What did Caylee do, get into an argument with Casey and run away? I doubt that one.
:praying: for Caylee
krimekat
08-20-2008, 10:20 PM
Please listen to all 3 911 tapes in their entirety. They tells the whole story. She concocted this story because her mom was putting her away and taking Caylee. She said right to her on the 1st call in the background if this is how its going to be, you will never see her again. Listen real close.
wow!!!
krimekat
08-20-2008, 10:28 PM
Please listen to all 3 911 tapes in their entirety. They tells the whole story. She concocted this story because her mom was putting her away and taking Caylee. http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=8FC4D8027D492FDB0464B9E9BEE379AC ?contentId=7065515&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
Cindy Anthony: My next thing will be child's thing and we'll have a court order to get her if thats what you wanna play. We'll do it and you'll never...
{Casey inaudibly talking}
Cindy Anthony: Well then you have...no I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.
NighTillDawn
08-20-2008, 10:51 PM
Cindy Anthony: My next thing will be child's thing and we'll have a court order to get her if thats what you wanna play. We'll do it and you'll never...
{Casey inaudibly talking}
Cindy Anthony: Well then you have...no I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.
I heard all three 911 calls, and can't believe it. Amazing...nothing surprises me anymore
:praying: for Caylee
Edited to add: In the 3rd 911 call Casey says the name of the nanny's, and spells it out for the operator. Her pronunciation is perfect and no mistakes in the spelling of the name either. Let's just say Casey sent Caylee with the nanny ZFG to Mexico. You don't need to fly to Mexico, you can drive there. Has the LE checked Mexico for Caylee?
kgeaux
08-21-2008, 07:55 AM
Hi Kgeaux. I think it is either exculpatory or culpatory but nothing in between. I think the pendulum is going to swing to one end or the other on this.
Totally agree.....I'm just starting to get antsy about which direction that pendulum will swing.
I am holding on to the hope that LE is not going to release the findings until they need to. They aren't required to release their finding, I don't think.
They don't have to release the findings, but IF they had found ANYTHING at all, they'd be beefing up the charges against Casey, don't you think?
I know Dr. Baden said it could take a year to get results back, but I respectfully disagree with him.....in high profile cases, lab tests are rushed to the front of the line. I think it's "possible" that LE has the results, and the results were disappointing. I hope I am wrong.
JBean
08-21-2008, 10:35 AM
Totally agree.....I'm just starting to get antsy about which direction that pendulum will swing.
They don't have to release the findings, but IF they had found ANYTHING at all, they'd be beefing up the charges against Casey, don't you think?
I know Dr. Baden said it could take a year to get results back, but I respectfully disagree with him.....in high profile cases, lab tests are rushed to the front of the line. I think it's "possible" that LE has the results, and the results were disappointing. I hope I am wrong.
While there are plenty of reasons that they could be withholding charges at this point, I am starting to think there is no case. What with all this media hoopla and drama surrounding her being bonded out it seem thye would have nipped it in the bud, cut it off, filed the muder charges and argued to hold her without bail. But they didn't.
Now, they have plenty of time to put a murder case together(if that is what they think happned) and perhaps they will only file the obstruction and lying to LE. If they dump the neglect charge they can always recharge her later or if they discover some murder evidence the door is open without having to worry about the argument for double jeopardy.
If she walks out of that jail this morning I will be doubtful that they have any substantial evidence. I do not think we have any idea if Caylee is dead or alive.
If they DO have the evidence to charge her and have the ability to hold her without bond, then letting this whole exercise with Padilla play out was irresponsible.
websurfer
08-21-2008, 12:53 PM
I really do not look for her to say a single word about this.
Also I noticed she is close with her lawyer.
Who has forbidden her to talk about it to anybody...
so why is she out then?
wallflower67
08-21-2008, 01:36 PM
I think there is enough to convict her of child neglect, which I believe carries a 5 year sentence. That would give the prosecution plenty of time to build a murder case, if that is what they have enough evidence to do.
Chanler
08-21-2008, 02:10 PM
I think there is enough to convict her of child neglect, which I believe carries a 5 year sentence. That would give the prosecution plenty of time to build a murder case, if that is what they have enough evidence to do.
Good point. I think that the circumstantial links are numerous enough and suspicious enough to overcome reasonable doubt. It's true that Casey hasn't give police information to help locate Caylee, but it's entirely possible that her multiple lies would undermine any plausible legal alibi.
MD MOMMY
09-02-2008, 05:42 PM
As this case stands right now, with the information we have until this point, what reasonable doubt do you think exists IF she was charged with murder? Remember it's not what we think LE might have or not have, it is the right here and now.
AlishaGail
09-02-2008, 05:46 PM
I think that right now and perhaps forever, it would be impossible to get Casey on premeditated murder. Manslaughter and perhaps abuse of a corpse, depending on further evidence found, would be possible, but I don't think that premeditated murder would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Nedthan Johns
09-02-2008, 05:46 PM
Reasonable doubt that Casey did it or reasonable doubt that Caylee is dead.
Caylee is dead ZERO
Casey did it? Being that she was the last one to see the child and Zenida does not exisit, that would leave me with probability, that combined with the DNA evidence in her trunk would lead me to believe she commited the crime.
MD MOMMY
09-02-2008, 05:48 PM
Reasonable doubt that Casey did it or reasonable doubt that Caylee is dead.
Caylee is dead ZERO
Casey did it? Being that she was the last one to see the child and Zenida does not exisit, that would leave me with probability, that combined with the DNA evidence in her trunk would lead me to believe she commited the crime.
That Casey did it..or both if people want to go there.:chicken:
DAWN TREADER
09-02-2008, 05:54 PM
Jurors can't just have any or some doubt - it has to be reasonable.
-------------
The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
If the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.
The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists as to the accused's guilt, but only that no Reasonable Doubt (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Doubt) is possible from the evidence presented.
Beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof that must be met in any trial. In civil litigation, the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence.
These are lower burdens of proof. A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and Convincing Proof (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clear+and+Convincing+Proof) is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true.
The main reason that the high proof standard of reasonable doubt is used in criminal trials is that such proceedings can result in the deprivation of a defendant's liberty or even in his or her death. These outcomes are far more severe than in civil trials, in which money damages are the common remedy.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/beyond%20a%20reasonable%20doubt
Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:00 PM
I need to hear the experts testify about the physical evidence - the hair and decomp. If the state's expert is as wishy washy as LE has been, saying it's "probably" Casey's hair and "probably" decomp material, etc. I MIGHT have doubt. However, when taken into consideration with Casey's actions before and after Caylee's disappearance, I think I'd have to vote guilty.
Jolynna
09-02-2008, 06:03 PM
I think that right now and perhaps forever, it would be impossible to get Casey on premeditated murder. Manslaughter and perhaps abuse of a corpse, depending on further evidence found, would be possible, but I don't think that premeditated murder would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
I agree.
An accident is possible. It IS possible that Casey could be in some sort of alternate reality from the shock of a horrible accident.
I am sure the defense can get put on a good case for how post trauma people can zone out to avoid thinking about horrific events. It is a fact that some abuse victims do it to survive.
I am convinced because Casey did not take the immunity deal that Caylee was deliberately killed.
But, I don't think that is even evidence I would be able to take into account if I were a juror.
If the state's expert is as wishy washy as LE has been, saying it's "probably" Casey's hair and "probably" decomp material, etc. I MIGHT have doubt.
In a TRIAL they will speak in absolutes. In an on-going investigation, where they are hoping for both a body, and a confession, they will not be speaking in absolutes, and that doesn't make them wishy washy.
I don't understand why "the public" doesn't seem to get that? They aren't going to sceam and point saying "SHE DID IT! SHE"S THE ONE!!!!" while they are still sorting it all out.
Mysticj
09-02-2008, 06:06 PM
She is being charged with negligance, lying, and obstruction.. Of these, she is Guilty beyond reasonable boubt.
Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:10 PM
In a TRIAL they will speak in absolutes. In an on-going investigation, where they are hoping for both a body, and a confession, they will not be speaking in absolutes, and that doesn't make them wishy washy.
I don't understand why "the public" doesn't seem to get that? They aren't going to sceam and point saying "SHE DID IT! SHE"S THE ONE!!!!" while they are still sorting it all out.
You misunderstand. I realize that LE not ready to speak in absolutes. I'm saying that IF the test results turn out not to be conclusive when it comes to trial it might raise reasonable doubt in my eyes. At this point we really don't know.
If the tests aren't conclusive, I don't think we will see other charges. I think they are "not conclusive" now simply because not everything is back from the labs. Until everything is back it is not wise to speak in absolutes. JMO
Until detectives can get probable cause to determine if the child died and her body ended up in the trunk, sources close to the investigation told WESH 2 there won't be homicide-related charges filed.
http://www.wesh.com/news/17366272/detail.html
I think they are holding out for further testing AND/OR a confession and body, because they still need probable cause. Until everything is back - they won't be jumping the gun. JMO
Legal definition of probable cause - http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p089.htm
AlishaGail
09-02-2008, 06:12 PM
In a TRIAL they will speak in absolutes. In an on-going investigation, where they are hoping for both a body, and a confession, they will not be speaking in absolutes, and that doesn't make them wishy washy.
I don't understand why "the public" doesn't seem to get that? They aren't going to sceam and point saying "SHE DID IT! SHE"S THE ONE!!!!" while they are still sorting it all out.
I don't think that that is what we expect. I think that what throws some of us off is that they HAVE said that it IS Caylee's DNA, and then changed their statements to say maybe/probably, and then back again to definitely. I agree that they're not going to give us everything during the investigative stages, but I do wish they'd stick to either disclaimers or the certainty.
AlishaGail
09-02-2008, 06:15 PM
I agree.
An accident is possible. It IS possible that Casey could be in some sort of alternate reality from the shock of a horrible accident.
I am sure the defense can get put on a good case for how post trauma people can zone out to avoid thinking about horrific events. It is a fact that some abuse victims do it to survive.
I am convinced because Casey did not take the immunity deal that Caylee was deliberately killed.
But, I don't think that is even evidence I would be able to take into account if I were a juror.
Exactly. I believe in the death penalty and harsh sentences for criminals who have been proven guilty. But I do hope I am not on a jury for a case where even the slightest doubt exists, because I could not say they are guilty without enough proof to convince my logic as well as my instinct. And I'm glad that our system is set up to insure that this is the way it's usually carried out... Though I do believe in my heart that Casey is guilty of a worse crime than neglect or manslaughter, even if it was an accident and a bad reaction... IMO she should have come forward by now with the truth and led us to Caylee's body. But that's my heart, not the law, and the law can only punish for certain crimes. :/
Lisha
kathyn2
09-02-2008, 06:15 PM
There is no probable doubt in my mind that Caylee is dead at the hand of Casey. However there is no way to prove it is premeditated. I could not vote for that and I don't think there would ever be proof of that (unless they found the body and she was poisoned or something). At this juncture I would vote 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. I do not believe she died by accident. If anything it would have been by severe neglect (ie, leaving her in the trunk of the car or alone in the pool) which equals at least manslaughter.
Jolynna
09-02-2008, 06:17 PM
You misunderstand. I realize that LE not ready to speak in absolutes. I'm saying that IF the test results turn out not to be conclusive when it comes to trial it might raise reasonable doubt in my eyes. At this point we really don't know.
I think we can be confident that the tests are conclusive now.
LE would not say anything if that wasn't the case.
IMO
Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:17 PM
If the tests aren't conclusive, I don't think we will see other charges.
I'm not so sure. They were able to get a conviction against Scott Peterson with no physical evidence except a piece of Laci's hair in his fishing pliers. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence against Casey. I think she will eventually face other charges. What I'm curious to see is what those charges will be. Accidential death? They have nothing to indicate that the death was the result of an accident. Murder one? Is there evidence of premediation? Something in between? Based on what? It's going to be interesting.
I think there is evidence of premeditation. I do not think there is evidence to support an accident. JMO
Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:19 PM
I think we can be confident that the tests are conclusive now.
LE would not say anything if that wasn't the case.
IMO
You're probably right, but why haven't they changed the status from a missing person investigation to a homicide investigation?
kathyn2
09-02-2008, 06:19 PM
Yep, thats true. scott peterson got the death penalty just on a piece of hair. The rest was all circumstancial and there is no doubt in my mind he was guilty. I am convinced Casey is guilty too. BUT I don't know that it was premeditated.
impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 06:20 PM
I think that right now and perhaps forever, it would be impossible to get Casey on premeditated murder. Manslaughter and perhaps abuse of a corpse, depending on further evidence found, would be possible, but I don't think that premeditated murder would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Do you feel this way because without the body they can't determine cause of death? If that is the reason, there have been 200+ cases tried without a body, many with first degree charges, with no body and cause of death.
Scott Peterson's case would be another example, the bodys did wash up but cause of death undetermined. They argued motive and behavior afterwards.
Casey's behavior afterwards is going to be a major problem for the defense.
Doesn't report her child missing.
Hinders the investigation when the police open the case.
The pictures out dancing.
She was at Fusian every Friday night.
All of the friends who will testify that they saw Casey and she never mentioned Caylee, she was fine.
We are 80 plus days and she still hasn't given one statement that would lead to her child.
IMO because not all of the tests are back, and they do not want to jump the gun. See post #11
Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:21 PM
I think there is evidence of premeditation. I do not think there is evidence to support an accident. JMO
I'd be very interested in hearing what evidence of premedition you see. I've thought about it and am having a difficult time coming up with anything. Maybe we could start a thread for the subject?
Given the right prosecutor for the State, I believe could definitely be convicted of murder 1.
You don't lose your kid - you don't NOT KNOW where you 2 year old is.
IMO she is automotically responsible without a reasonable doubt because that child is missing - produce a child or do the time!
Good idea, I would like that discussion!
Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:27 PM
Do you feel this way because without the body they can't determine cause of death? If that is the reason, there have been 200+ cases tried without a body, many with first degree charges, with no body and cause of death.
Scott Peterson's case would be another example, the bodys did wash up but cause of death undetermined. They argued motive and behavior afterwards.
Casey's behavior afterwards is going to be a major problem for the defense.
Doesn't report her child missing.
Hinders the investigation when the police open the case.
The pictures out dancing.
She was at Fusian every Friday night.
All of the friends who will testify that they saw Casey and she never mentioned Caylee, she was fine.
We are 80 plus days and she still hasn't given one statement that would lead to her child.
There was a lot of evidence supporting premediation in the Scott Peterson case, including him telling people that he'd lost his wife before she was even missing and that he would be spending his first holidays without her. He also told Amber that he'd be free to spend more time with her in January, a month after his wife disappeared. He looked up tidal currents on his computer and purchased the boat that he used to dump her body. He made anchors to weigh her body down before she disappeared, etc. etc. etc.
What you have listed is not evidence of premediation as it all happened after Caylee disappeared. Can we think of anything that shows Casey planned to do away with Caylee?
impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 06:32 PM
There was a lot of evidence supporting premediation in the Scott Peterson case, including him telling people that he'd lost his wife before she was even missing and that he would be spending his first holidays without her. He also told Amber that he'd be free to spend more time with her in January, a month after his wife disappeared. He looked up tidal currents on his computer and purchased the boat that he used to dump her body. He made anchors to weigh her body down before she disappeared, etc. etc. etc.
What you have listed is not evidence of premediation as it all happened after Caylee disappeared. Can we think of anything that shows Casey planned to do away with Caylee?
We know she hid her pregnancy.
We know that she wanted to give her away.
We know her and Cindy were battling each other about parenting issues.
We know she told her friends that she couldn't go out as much as she wanted.
Premeditation can happen in the moment you decide to kill someone, it does not have to be a planned out for days in advance event.
SHe also looked up sinkholes on her computer...
But, I started a thread on premeditation vs accident - check it out!
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70133
Jolynna
09-02-2008, 06:34 PM
Given the right prosecutor for the State, I believe could definitely be convicted of murder 1.
You don't lose your kid - you don't NOT KNOW where you 2 year old is.
IMO she is automotically responsible without a reasonable doubt because that child is missing - produce a child or do the time!
A rich guy in Texas with an outstanding lawyer got off after chopping up and disposing of the body.
He said he was scared and panicked.
I think it is very possible for reasonable people to believe that this formerly "loving" (see the pics and remember she breastfed) mother witnessed a horrific accident and "freaked out". Then the mother was in shock and partied to avoid thinking of the traumatic event.
"Take a look at this girl, folks, she's goofy. You can see she isn't right. It is obvious shock" I'd say if I were a defense lawyer.
I think a legitimate case for an accident could be made and that proving more would NOT be a slam dunk.
IMO
PS: I think she is guilty of more but am not sure the evidence proves it.
I was a juror on a double murder trial and let me tell you, we went over and over what constitutes "reasonable doubt". In our case, a tiny drop of one of the victims blood was enough for us to deliver a guilty verdict, though the defense tried to get us to believe that there was another person involved that committed the actual murder and his client was just in the vehicle (that person could never be produced). I think that a hair with evidence of decomposition would not be enough as it has been stated that a hair yanked from someones head that is alive with skin attached to it would show the same signs of decomposition as a hair from a deceased person, the defense will bring up all of the cases where the "air" tests have been inaccurate which in my mind, these two things would constitute reasonable doubt. Other than those two things, they have no real evidence.
Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:35 PM
We know she hid her pregnancy.
We know that she wanted to give her away.
We know her and Cindy were battling each other about parenting issues.
We know she told her friends that she couldn't go out as much as she wanted.
Premeditation can happen in the moment you decide to kill someone, it does not have to be a planned out for days in advance event.
Good points, however many young mothers experience those same things and don't kill their children.
impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 06:37 PM
Good points, however many young mothers experience those same things and don't kill their children.
and Scott Peterson wasn't the first guy to say he was a widower when he wasn't. If you are looking for a smoking gun I don't think it will be found in this case.
Cagney
09-02-2008, 06:38 PM
I think that with the evidence that has been made public, manslaughter won't be hard to prove.
I think that the evidence that has been made public, compounded with whatever LE is holding as their ace in the hole plus anything further they may find- premeditation will not be hard to prove. If they find a body I can see first degree murder w/ the death penalty on the table.
Boston
09-02-2008, 06:49 PM
It's my opinion that if LE can prove that Caylee is dead & they can also prove that she was in Casey's trunk then Casey will be convicted of 1st degree murder. They don't need a body.
PICK ME FOR THE JURY, PICK ME!!!!!:bananapartyhat:
Need and want are two different things.
LE always will WANT a body - that makes it fairly easy for them.
However, I don't think they will drag this out to the last second in the hopes that one will turn up. I think they will drag it out till they have reasonably searched to the best of everyone's ability and then they will use what they have and charge. JMO
And were she to get the death penalty, I can just see the "executioner" saying to Casey right before she is executed, "everyone lies, everyone dies".
Boston
09-02-2008, 07:02 PM
If Cassey were to ever claim that this was an accidental death then she would have to tell LE where the body is.
If this goes to trial and there is evidence that Caylee is dead & her body was disposed of by Casey then the only reasonable assumption would be that Casey murdered her.
The reason being that if this was an accident she would have told LE where the body is & the autopsy would confirm her story.
lisalei321
09-02-2008, 07:12 PM
PICK ME FOR THE JURY, PICK ME!!!!!:bananapartyhat:
Pick me to, me to please?!!!!!:bananapartyhat:
DAWN TREADER
09-02-2008, 07:13 PM
I'm betting the state and LE have a pretty good idea now what's fact and what's fiction in this case. If they can discredit (impeach) the testimony of any of the key witnesses for the defense it could be devastating.
DAWN TREADER
09-02-2008, 07:21 PM
If most of the public doesn't buy the Zanny the Nanny story I can guarantee you 12 jurors will have a hard time doing so as well.
Baznme
09-02-2008, 07:24 PM
Listen to this audio of an independent caller to LP. In this conversation, he asks her if she sees any holes in the timeline. After you have listened, look at this calendar a fellow WS'er put together and see if you see any holes.
http://www.myspace.com/caseyanthonyneedsprison4life
Here is the calendar -
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb202/toshroger/1220261950.jpg
TheLoneRanger
09-02-2008, 07:24 PM
Casey did it? Being that she was the last one to see the child....
(respectfully snipped from NJ comment above... sorry - not sure how to do quotes on here yet :)
See, regardless, this is actually the ONE thing keeping me on the fence abt this entire madness.... technically, yes - & this being per CA herself, yes, CA is the last one to see the child (seeing as how LE has shown that basically the nanny ZFG doesn't *exist*(?) But what is proveable 'evidence', well - I mean, anyone can 'he-said-she-said-I-saw-them-here-or-there') - but what is provable 'fact' as far as jury-wise, IMO, is that the GM was last to see child (per the video & pics at senior home, per sign in sheet at senior home, per witness at senior home, & per CA's own mother) CA wasn't with her as far as all these records appear to indicate. So, again..... back to square one... basically, I think it ALL boils down to *when* did this little angel *actually* disappear....? CA says 6/09. GM says 6/16. Initially EVERYONE said 6/09..... I don't think it's as clear-cut of a whodunnit until the exact determination of when she was REALLY last seen comes to light.... this is jmo....
impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 07:33 PM
Listen to this audio of an independent caller to LP. In this conversation, he asks her if she sees any holes in the timeline. After you have listened, look at this calendar a fellow WS'er put together and see if you see any holes.
Here is the calendar -
Not a hole per se but her myspace quotes show her to be at Fusian all of the fridays except the one where Tony is gone.
impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 07:34 PM
Casey did it? Being that she was the last one to see the child....
(respectfully snipped from NJ comment above... sorry - not sure how to do quotes on here yet :)
See, regardless, this is actually the ONE thing keeping me on the fence abt this entire madness.... technically, yes - & this being per CA herself, yes, CA is the last one to see the child (seeing as how LE has shown that basically the nanny ZFG doesn't *exist*(?) But what is proveable 'evidence', well - I mean, anyone can 'he-said-she-said-I-saw-them-here-or-there') - but what is provable 'fact' as far as jury-wise, IMO, is that the GM was last to see child (per the video & pics at senior home, per sign in sheet at senior home, per witness at senior home, & per CA's own mother) CA wasn't with her as far as all these records appear to indicate. So, again..... back to square one... basically, I think it ALL boils down to *when* did this little angel *actually* disappear....? CA says 6/09. GM says 6/16. Initially EVERYONE said 6/09..... I don't think it's as clear-cut of a whodunnit until the exact determination of when she was REALLY last seen comes to light.... this is jmo....
I think the George sighting is the last time she was seen. If they had gone out that afternoon someone would recall seeing Caylee, or they would be on video somewhere. I think it happened at the house shortly after George left.
Baznme
09-02-2008, 07:43 PM
Casey did it? Being that she was the last one to see the child....
(respectfully snipped from NJ comment above... sorry - not sure how to do quotes on here yet :)
See, regardless, this is actually the ONE thing keeping me on the fence abt this entire madness.... technically, yes - & this being per CA herself, yes, CA is the last one to see the child (seeing as how LE has shown that basically the nanny ZFG doesn't *exist*(?) But what is proveable 'evidence', well - I mean, anyone can 'he-said-she-said-I-saw-them-here-or-there') - but what is provable 'fact' as far as jury-wise, IMO, is that the GM was last to see child (per the video & pics at senior home, per sign in sheet at senior home, per witness at senior home, & per CA's own mother) CA wasn't with her as far as all these records appear to indicate. So, again..... back to square one... basically, I think it ALL boils down to *when* did this little angel *actually* disappear....? CA says 6/09. GM says 6/16. Initially EVERYONE said 6/09..... I don't think it's as clear-cut of a whodunnit until the exact determination of when she was REALLY last seen comes to light.... this is jmo....
Soooo, sometime between 6/16 (date Caylee last seen) and 6/27 (date the car was dropped off at Amscot), Caylee disappeared. We still do not know when she passed away. Surely, Casey wasn't driving around with Caylee in the trunk for 14 days.
Baznme
09-02-2008, 07:44 PM
Not a hole per se but her myspace quotes show her to be at Fusian all of the fridays except the one where Tony is gone.
Interesting. Do we know where she was? Anybody?
EastSideOfSaddness
09-02-2008, 07:56 PM
Soooo, sometime between 6/16 (date Caylee last seen) and 6/27 (date the car was dropped off at Amscot), Caylee disappeared. We still do not know when she passed away. Surely, Casey wasn't driving around with Caylee in the trunk for 14 days.
I was thinking that maybe her car was noticed at the Amscot on the 27th however, it is also possible they didn't notice it until that day. I don't know just throwing it out there.
I wonder IF she was actually pushed by a couple of guys into the parking lot. Someone would def. remember helping her and would have contacted LE. Did Casey ever admit to the date that her car ran out of gas? Just curious I don't remember reading that.
I would only imagine that the day that she abandoned the car would be the day she got rid of the body. I just can't imagine that she would drive around in a stinky car for several days.
Cher352
09-02-2008, 08:27 PM
Interesting. Do we know where she was? Anybody?
At the beach? With Jesse? Getting rid of body???
Am I close?
Baznme
09-02-2008, 08:38 PM
SHe also looked up sinkholes on her computer...
But, I started a thread on premeditation vs accident - check it out!
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70133
What? Sinkholes? I don't remember anything about that.
nancy botwin
09-02-2008, 09:41 PM
What? Sinkholes? I don't remember anything about that.
I remember people discussing sinkholes in the context of Casey's web history. I think some discussion occurs in this thread: http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69014, starting with post #12. The sinkhole discussion was prompted by the discovery of Casey's profile on stumbleupon.com-- a user-generated aggregation of recent favorite web links. http://caseyomarie.stumbleupon.com/
MD MOMMY
09-02-2008, 09:43 PM
Jurors can't just have any or some doubt - it has to be reasonable.
-------------
The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
Beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof that must be met in any trial. In civil litigation, the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence.
These are lower burdens of proof. A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and Convincing Proof (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clear+and+Convincing+Proof) is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true.
The main reason that the high proof standard of reasonable doubt is used in criminal trials is that such proceedings can result in the deprivation of a defendant's liberty or even in his or her death. These outcomes are far more severe than in civil trials, in which money damages are the common remedy.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/beyond%20a%20reasonable%20doubt
Snipped..
Yes I'm aware that is why the post is called Reasonable doubt LOL.
DTFulmer
09-02-2008, 09:50 PM
A funny analogy to answer the question: there is one brownie left in my kitchen. Hubby gets home and finds that I was the last one in possession of said brownie, my breath smeels like brownie, and I have brownie crumbs on my face. Oh no, our daughter ate it, I say. (We don't have a daughter, he points out.) I mean, I've given it to someone to hold. (Who has it?) I can't tell you, or they might eat it. (I could go on....)
Ridiculous? Yes, but you get my drift. Hubby knows I ate the stinking brownie beyond a reasonable doubt. IMO, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey murdered her beautiful little girl.
McNugget
09-02-2008, 09:52 PM
I don't think there's enough evidence leaning towards premeditation- yet. And I don't think Casey would tell the truth even though the whole thing was an accident- she will never make herself look bad, even if it means taking the heat off of a more serious conviction.
DTFulmer
09-02-2008, 09:58 PM
Listen to this audio of an independent caller to LP. In this conversation, he asks her if she sees any holes in the timeline. After you have listened, look at this calendar a fellow WS'er put together and see if you see any holes.
http://www.myspace.com/caseyanthonyneedsprison4life
Here is the calendar -
I just went to listen to this call with LP, but the call is the same girl talking to Cindy Anthony. Where to post??
http://www.myspace.com/caseyanthonyneedsprison4life
not_my_kids
09-02-2008, 10:06 PM
Honestly, I think with what we have right now, she could walk on everything connected to Caylee.
Yes, she has lied, but Casey was not the last verified person to be seen with the child, that would cast doubt.
We know of at least one very reputable expert who would testify that the technology used to detect decomp is hardly better than experimental.
THe same expert would testify that there are possibly other things that can form the bands on the hair. The banding is what is being determined as evidence that Caylee is dead.
As crazy as her story is, she has stuck to the important points, when, where, who.
There is only one person in the statements we have seen, that has said that Casey did not want Caylee and that person already destroyed her credibility by swearing that Casey called her for money and then backtracked and said it was a different Casey.
The car showing the signs of decomp was out of her possession. Even though there are no signs of tampering, the car was out of her possession for a little while.
There were no former complaints of abuse of mistreatment against anyone involved with Casey.
There are people, many of them, that will testify that Casey knew she could have signed Caylee over to her parents if she no longer wanted her and had no reason to do anything to her.
So for motive, we have nothing.
Opportunity, yes.
Means, yes.
A jury would be reluctant to send a 23 year old woman to jail. ( I think she will be 23 by the time she goes to trial.) They would need more than circumstantial evidence.
Remember, even though she has lied, I am sure that there will experts called to the stand to speak about compulsive lying.
ANd as far as proving Caylee is dead, good luck. There is evidence, but it is already being highly disputed as to whether or not the tests themselves are reliable. You can bet it will be ten times worse in court.
Breaking Heart
09-02-2008, 10:53 PM
Personally, I would not convict on circumstantial evidence alone. In many trials, not ALL evidence is presented to the juror's...for example, because it was obtained without a warrant. At times, it is that one piece of evidence that was thrown out that would leave the juror's with reasonable doubt. If I am asked to decide a person's fate, I want conclusive forensic results to back up the circumstantial evidence. As this case stands right now, at this moment, and assuming what has been reported by the media is truth, IMO, there is reasonable doubt that Caylee is dead, and there is reasonable doubt that Casey was responsible for her death.
Breaking Heart
09-02-2008, 10:54 PM
Honestly, I think with what we have right now, she could walk on everything connected to Caylee.
Yes, she has lied, but Casey was not the last verified person to be seen with the child, that would cast doubt.
We know of at least one very reputable expert who would testify that the technology used to detect decomp is hardly better than experimental.
THe same expert would testify that there are possibly other things that can form the bands on the hair. The banding is what is being determined as evidence that Caylee is dead.
As crazy as her story is, she has stuck to the important points, when, where, who.
There is only one person in the statements we have seen, that has said that Casey did not want Caylee and that person already destroyed her credibility by swearing that Casey called her for money and then backtracked and said it was a different Casey.
The car showing the signs of decomp was out of her possession. Even though there are no signs of tampering, the car was out of her possession for a little while.
There were no former complaints of abuse of mistreatment against anyone involved with Casey.
There are people, many of them, that will testify that Casey knew she could have signed Caylee over to her parents if she no longer wanted her and had no reason to do anything to her.
So for motive, we have nothing.
Opportunity, yes.
Means, yes.
A jury would be reluctant to send a 23 year old woman to jail. ( I think she will be 23 by the time she goes to trial.) They would need more than circumstantial evidence.
Remember, even though she has lied, I am sure that there will experts called to the stand to speak about compulsive lying.
ANd as far as proving Caylee is dead, good luck. There is evidence, but it is already being highly disputed as to whether or not the tests themselves are reliable. You can bet it will be ten times worse in court.
IMO, you are right on the money with your assessment!
LCoastMom
09-02-2008, 11:28 PM
If I were sitting in a jury box today, based soley on what we know right now I would feel comfortable finding Caylee guilty on all current charges and guilty of killing her baby but I'm not sure in which degree. My reasoning is quite simple; 1+1=2 (not 3 as Cindy asks us to believe.) (1) Caylee's DNA, showing decomp is in the car. (+) The car was last driven by Casey and she was the last person seen with Caylee (=) Caylee is dead, by Casey's hand or neglect.
Pending chemical and drug testing on Caylee's hair that will be my determining factor. I also don't need a body to say she murdered Caylee, based on scientific evidence.
While it's plain to see Casey has problems, I would not find her to be insane. An insane person couldn't carry out the ruse she put in motion, hiding the babies body, tossing 200+ baby pics, holding America by the short hairs for the last 8 weeks. It's too bad she didn't hide her, the way she lies, LE would have found the body before the ink was dry on the warrent.
It appears we may have a hung jury, I think both sides have compelling answers.
LCoastMom
09-02-2008, 11:45 PM
"So for motive, we have nothing."
The witness statements all seem to say Casey is angry at her parents for controlling her; for motive I could say she wanted to get even with her parents for tying her down for last 3 years. Caylee was just her pawn not a separate human intitled to her own life. [this is evident by taking her to inapropriate places, putting her to sleep on a couch in the middle of a party, putting Caylee to bed with herselt and bf. Caylee had no say in these cases.
Ladytazz
09-03-2008, 12:49 AM
Soooo, sometime between 6/16 (date Caylee last seen) and 6/27 (date the car was dropped off at Amscot), Caylee disappeared. We still do not know when she passed away. Surely, Casey wasn't driving around with Caylee in the trunk for 14 days.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the car first spotted at Amscot 6/27/08 at 7 am? Doesn't that mean it was probably dropped of on 6/26/08?
not_my_kids
09-03-2008, 12:52 AM
"So for motive, we have nothing."
The witness statements all seem to say Casey is angry at her parents for controlling her; for motive I could say she wanted to get even with her parents for tying her down for last 3 years. Caylee was just her pawn not a separate human intitled to her own life. [this is evident by taking her to inapropriate places, putting her to sleep on a couch in the middle of a party, putting Caylee to bed with herselt and bf. Caylee had no say in these cases.
Yes, but lots of people have issues with controlling parents. Likely there will be at least one on the jury and it very likely that they will not have killed anyone. There are statement after statement saying that Casey and Caylee's relationship was affectionate and normal. If it goes to trial on murder charges, in any degree, the jury will be able to say that she was a bad parent, but that does not make a murderer.
It is a long stretch from "My mother loves Caylee, I want to hurt my mother." to "I am going to hurt Caylee because that would hurt my mother."
it's a possible motive, but very shaky.
I just don't think it will fly, with the statements and witnesses that will be presented.
Firefly
09-03-2008, 01:05 AM
The LE needs to keep all items of evidence tightly wrapped until the best time to divulge it. This is maintain the integrity of the value it has to convict Casey.
This family is already trying the case in the court of public opinion. They have tried to give possible scenerios, no matter how crazy, to explain any evidence that is known. For example:
Pizza = decomp
car didn't smell when it was intially towed = someone must have placed a body in the car at the tow yard.
Casey not reporting Caylee missing = She was looking for the child herself
We WILL get all of this back at trial.
Casey has NEVER and will never admit to anything wrong. This is what will keep this case going. Keep her mother obstrucing an investigation....I forsee this as a possible problem for the A's in the future. ****Wouldn't it be rich if they arrested a family member for this?******
magic-cat
09-03-2008, 01:07 AM
It sure would be nice to know if any of Caylee's DNA was found on the kitchen kife that was in the back seat of her car when it was towed...It HAD been washed, but maybe some tiny solitary cell landed in a crack in the handle or something...they never have discussed that kitchen knife much have they?
I have no reasonable doubt that Casey is ultimately responsible for the death of Caylee...
milopedes
10-10-2008, 02:38 PM
I believe that KC is guilty, and I believe that Caylee is deceased. But a conviction to the crime is ultimately going to boil down to reasonable doubt.
This may not have anything to do with reasonable doubt, but I think LE is going to have to present an ironclad timeline to make this stick without Caylee being found.
Here is my concern:
June 16: GA sees KC and Caylee
June 18: Shovel borrowed/car backed into garage
June 24: Gas cans reported stolen. George in KC's trunk, no smell noted.
June 25: First known instance of "smelly car" cover story emerges (to Amy)
If we are to believe that KC didn't hide Caylee in the backyard somewhere, despite the dogs hitting on several spots, then based upon the known facts it would seem that the body would have been in the trunk at some point on or before June 18th, right?
Yet, in his conversation with Greta about the gas cans GA noted he went to the trunk of KC's car - despite her protests against him doing so - to get a tool to assist him with work on CA's car (i.e., tire rotation). This is important to note: He never mentioned a smell. Wouldn't there have been one by then, assuming KC killed Caylee on June 16th, and had her in the trunk at some point?
If we are to believe she had her hidden in the backyard until June 18th, when she borrowed the shovel, the body - now decomposing - still would have been in the trunk at some point.
Something just doesn't add up in my mind when reviewing these facts.
Any thoughts?
weasel
10-10-2008, 02:59 PM
<<reasonable doubt can be established based on the fact that the car was out of her possession for weeks>>
You may be right. I have thought about the fact that she can say the car wasn't in her possession for weeks to create reasonable doubt. Cindy has already alluded to that when she said something to the effect of "there was no odor before the car was towed .... no odor". Homicide is going to be hard to prove without a body in this case. Unlike an adult who can pick up a phone or use a credit card, I think it's going to be harder to prove a child is deceased. Her prior history is that of a good mother, according to all accounts.
magnolia
10-10-2008, 02:59 PM
Honestly, I think with what we have right now, she could walk on everything connected to Caylee.
Yes, she has lied, but Casey was not the last verified person to be seen with the child, that would cast doubt.
We know of at least one very reputable expert who would testify that the technology used to detect decomp is hardly better than experimental.
*Snipped*
I agree!! As we all know, it takes only one Juror to hold out because of reasonable doubt. There are people that believe the "Nanny took Caylee" story.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that the body will be found, and the State has more evidence than has been revealed to the Public.
It's not that I don't have confidence in LE and TES, but I will be very surprised if the body is found.
pat19954
10-10-2008, 03:30 PM
the first phone call asking for Tony's phone number along with Cindy's 3rd 911 call will make it difficult for any jury to NOT convict her.
Huh Just what will they convict her of using those two instances ?
pat19954
10-10-2008, 03:34 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the car first spotted at Amscot 6/27/08 at 7 am? Doesn't that mean it was probably dropped of on 6/26/08?
Why couldn't it have been dropped off sometime in the preceeding 7 hours of 6/27/08?
SeriouslySearching
10-10-2008, 04:40 PM
I have a firm belief that when this case is presented in full...the Prosecution will have left no room for any doubt at all. Their forensic evidence and all the other evidence they have obtained during the investigation including testimony will prove Caylee is deceased, she was in the care of Casey at the time, Casey will be connected directly to Caylee's death, and that there is no other way it could have taken place. I am not the least bit worried they cannot prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
Maui4me
10-10-2008, 04:43 PM
I have a firm belief that when this case is presented in full...the Prosecution will have left no room for any doubt at all. Their forensic evidence and all the other evidence they have obtained during the investigation including testimony will prove Caylee is deceased, she was in the care of Casey at the time, Casey will be connected directly to Caylee's death, and that there is no other way it could have taken place. I am not the least bit worried they cannot prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
I am with ya, especially with text message about getting rid of smell in the car
2goldfish
10-10-2008, 04:49 PM
I am with ya, especially with text message about getting rid of smell in the car
this is what stresses me about this case....
that proves that there was definitely a smell of decomp, and KC was definitely aware of it, and definitely took steps to make it seem resonable to others etc, so on....
....but it does not prove premeditation, so I have reasonable doubt...
but could still do capital murder charge (if it was during the commision of a felony, like child abuse, etc.) but given the evidence we know at this point in time, were I on the jury, agonizing as it is for me, I would never convict for murder 1 (in the premeditated sense) because there is a great deal of doubt for me.
JMCDAD
10-10-2008, 04:55 PM
Honestly, I think with what we have right now, she could walk on everything connected to Caylee.
Yes, she has lied, but Casey was not the last verified person to be seen with the child, that would cast doubt.
We know of at least one very reputable expert who would testify that the technology used to detect decomp is hardly better than experimental.
THe same expert would testify that there are possibly other things that can form the bands on the hair. The banding is what is being determined as evidence that Caylee is dead.
As crazy as her story is, she has stuck to the important points, when, where, who.
There is only one person in the statements we have seen, that has said that Casey did not want Caylee and that person already destroyed her credibility by swearing that Casey called her for money and then backtracked and said it was a different Casey.
The car showing the signs of decomp was out of her possession. Even though there are no signs of tampering, the car was out of her possession for a little while.
There were no former complaints of abuse of mistreatment against anyone involved with Casey.
There are people, many of them, that will testify that Casey knew she could have signed Caylee over to her parents if she no longer wanted her and had no reason to do anything to her.
So for motive, we have nothing.
Opportunity, yes.
Means, yes.
A jury would be reluctant to send a 23 year old woman to jail. ( I think she will be 23 by the time she goes to trial.) They would need more than circumstantial evidence.
Remember, even though she has lied, I am sure that there will experts called to the stand to speak about compulsive lying.
ANd as far as proving Caylee is dead, good luck. There is evidence, but it is already being highly disputed as to whether or not the tests themselves are reliable. You can bet it will be ten times worse in court.
I completely disagree
I think you also have to take into account resonable, as what would a reasonable person do
A reasonable person would not wait 3O days to report her daughter missing (actually would have been longer, she was forced to report it )
A reasonable person would not then lie about basically everything
its not just random lies, its lies about where her daughter is, and who has her
A reasaonable person would not go partying while her daughter is missing
I can go on on and but you know what I am talking about, I personally would have no problem convicting her from what we already know and that doesn't include what LE has on her that we don't know
magnolia
10-10-2008, 05:14 PM
"So for motive, we have nothing."
*Snipped*
The State does not have to prove how or why she did it.
jinnimae
10-10-2008, 05:18 PM
I was thinking that reasonable doubt can be established based on the fact that the car was out of her possession for weeks a few weeks. Other people had access to that car when it was in the tow yard. One of those people could have used the car to move a body, then there's the decomp smell. Something from the car could have been removed and put in the yard so there's the explanation for the hit in the yard.
But, I'm sure LE has fingerprinted the car and anyone who (they knew) who came into contact with it. So, if "The Others" had actually used the car to move a body, LE would know, by process of elimination.
magnolia
10-10-2008, 05:20 PM
I have a firm belief that when this case is presented in full...the Prosecution will have left no room for any doubt at all. Their forensic evidence and all the other evidence they have obtained during the investigation including testimony will prove Caylee is deceased, she was in the care of Casey at the time, Casey will be connected directly to Caylee's death, and that there is no other way it could have taken place. I am not the least bit worried they cannot prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
I hope your firm belief is right.
BetsyB
10-10-2008, 05:22 PM
At first glance, the pictures APPEAR to show a loving mother, I agree.
When we stop & think about Casey & her 'history' we realize...
How long does it take to snap a photo.... it's easy to look happy for a split second.
What would the pictures show IF Casey was a REAL full time mother & not just a fill in when she wasn't off having fun with her friends?
Having a cute kid is a real attention getter.... it's a positive as long as your friends are still cooing over the kid.... what happens when having a toddler around starts to make your friends feel self-conscious about their own behavior... they're young & single & want to have fun.
Exactly.
Casey is a sociopath. Appearance is everything because, well---there's NOTHING beneath the surface. There is not any capacity to form meaningful relationships---there is appearance, and appearance alone.
Casey smiled for the camera, therefore she was happy.
Casey made pasta for Tony, therefore she was a wonderful girlfriend.
Casey did the boy's laundry, therefore she was caring and domestic.
Casey wore a flag to a party, therefore she was a fun, fun friend.
Casey danced with girls, therefore she was open-minded and sexy-cool.
Casey pretended to have a job, therefore she was an important career woman.
Casey sent text message after text message, therefore she was a thoughtful friend.
It goes on and on and on.
AND IT ALL WAS A LIE--every. single. thing.
I don't think a reasonable jury will be fooled for long. All they need to do is see her very well-documented behavior since Caylee's disappearance. Her continuation of life "as usual" with NO mention of a missing daughter and NO behavior to suggest distress. Followed by her cold, cold silence once it became known.
No one will be fooled.
Brini
10-10-2008, 05:26 PM
I was SHOCKED when Baez said to Greta that he could not respond to her questions (the other night On The Record) b/c it is part of his Opening Statement? Almost as damning as " . . . my daughter's been looking for. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today. But I can't find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. There’s something wrong. I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car." 911 call #3
Duh :bang:
Exactly! Easy one!
Brini
10-10-2008, 05:30 PM
But, I'm sure LE has fingerprinted the car and anyone who (they knew) who came into contact with it. So, if "The Others" had actually used the car to move a body, LE would know, by process of elimination.
Yes! The "others" would have had to climb the wire fence carrying the body, put it into the trunk unseen. Then, a few days later, do the reverse.
KC would have to explain how se managed to overlook the smell, or why she had to tell several more lies to explain it.
There ARE no others. There never were. And everyone with whom she has communicated in any way, has been cleared. The rest is KCs fictions.
BetsyB
10-10-2008, 05:37 PM
<<reasonable doubt can be established based on the fact that the car was out of her possession for weeks>>
You may be right. I have thought about the fact that she can say the car wasn't in her possession for weeks to create reasonable doubt. Cindy has already alluded to that when she said something to the effect of "there was no odor before the car was towed .... no odor". Homicide is going to be hard to prove without a body in this case. It's going to be very hard for any jury to swallow that the person who happened to steal Casey's car just happened to be the very same person who needed a place to stow --not just any body---Caylee's sweet little body. The forensics are going to make it very difficult for this argument to create reasonable doubt, IMO.
Brini
10-10-2008, 05:41 PM
Honestly, I think with what we have right now, she could walk on everything connected to Caylee.
Yes, she has lied, but Casey was not the last verified person to be seen with the child, that would cast doubt.
We know of at least one very reputable expert who would testify that the technology used to detect decomp is hardly better than experimental.
THe same expert would testify that there are possibly other things that can form the bands on the hair. The banding is what is being determined as evidence that Caylee is dead.
As crazy as her story is, she has stuck to the important points, when, where, who.
There is only one person in the statements we have seen, that has said that Casey did not want Caylee and that person already destroyed her credibility by swearing that Casey called her for money and then backtracked and said it was a different Casey.
The car showing the signs of decomp was out of her possession. Even though there are no signs of tampering, the car was out of her possession for a little while.
There were no former complaints of abuse of mistreatment against anyone involved with Casey.
There are people, many of them, that will testify that Casey knew she could have signed Caylee over to her parents if she no longer wanted her and had no reason to do anything to her.
So for motive, we have nothing.
Opportunity, yes.
Means, yes.
A jury would be reluctant to send a 23 year old woman to jail. ( I think she will be 23 by the time she goes to trial.) They would need more than circumstantial evidence.
Remember, even though she has lied, I am sure that there will experts called to the stand to speak about compulsive lying.
ANd as far as proving Caylee is dead, good luck. There is evidence, but it is already being highly disputed as to whether or not the tests themselves are reliable. You can bet it will be ten times worse in court.
DNA, hair bands, air tests, and cadaver dogs are not experimental. ALL have been used to support successful prosecutions, in court. Chloroform in the trunk? Hasn't been used by consumers, even by medical people in 20 years.
Tests by the FBI lab, then conformed by two other labs unreliable? The FBI has one of the best forensics labs in the world. Sometimes they use it to assist Interpol.
WHO was the last verified person to see Caylee, other than KC? The non-existent nanny?
It looks to me like the only person who had the car and the baby was KC. To tamper with the car, one would have to climb a wire fence with barbed wire on top with the corpse, and put it in the trunk, unseen. Then, a few days later, climb the SAME fence and take the body back out.
Then, there are the computer forensics (searches of missing child sites before the incident, chloroform).
The endless and changing lies are the LEAST of it.
Of course, if LE follows the pings to the grave, it's icing on the cake.
People have gone away with a LOT less.
And, THIS is just the evidence we KNOW about!
I don't think any 12 people would be dumb enough to overlook or rationalize away all that.
BTW-- The prisons are full of sociopaths in their 20s.
lucy54
10-10-2008, 05:45 PM
THANK YOU for this thread. I've been saying this for awhile. They have been building their defense since day 1. With so many questions, lies, twists and turns a jury will have a difficult time convicting "beyond a reasonable doubt". IMO having daddy's knowledge (of homicide cases) in LE and the "31"days to blur the time of death and evidence they have been creating doubt from the first day.
I thought this at first too. But there is a lot of evidence that hasn't been released yet. I am hoping LE will use that evidence to prove their case. Also, GA was a deputy not a homicide detective when he worked for LE. I am pretty sure it was proven that he mostly was a traffic deputy patrolling the streets and writing speeding tickets. I really don't think he helped KC cover this up. I think he and CA are now defending her just b/c it's their daughter and they don't want to believe she did this.
Brini
10-10-2008, 05:45 PM
Yes, but lots of people have issues with controlling parents. Likely there will be at least one on the jury and it very likely that they will not have killed anyone. There are statement after statement saying that Casey and Caylee's relationship was affectionate and normal. If it goes to trial on murder charges, in any degree, the jury will be able to say that she was a bad parent, but that does not make a murderer.
It is a long stretch from "My mother loves Caylee, I want to hurt my mother." to "I am going to hurt Caylee because that would hurt my mother."
it's a possible motive, but very shaky.
I just don't think it will fly, with the statements and witnesses that will be presented.
How do you KNOW what evidence will be presented? What they have now is MORE than enough, and that's not all of it, per LE.
Only ONE person had motive, method, and opportunity-- KC.
Lots of people DO have issues with controlling parents. Few of those are sociopaths.
Brini
10-10-2008, 05:50 PM
I believe that KC is guilty, and I believe that Caylee is deceased. But a conviction to the crime is ultimately going to boil down to reasonable doubt.
This may not have anything to do with reasonable doubt, but I think LE is going to have to present an ironclad timeline to make this stick without Caylee being found.
Here is my concern:
June 16: GA sees KC and Caylee
June 18: Shovel borrowed/car backed into garage
June 24: Gas cans reported stolen. George in KC's trunk, no smell noted.
June 25: First known instance of "smelly car" cover story emerges (to Amy)
If we are to believe that KC didn't hide Caylee in the backyard somewhere, despite the dogs hitting on several spots, then based upon the known facts it would seem that the body would have been in the trunk at some point on or before June 18th, right?
Yet, in his conversation with Greta about the gas cans GA noted he went to the trunk of KC's car - despite her protests against him doing so - to get a tool to assist him with work on CA's car (i.e., tire rotation). This is important to note: He never mentioned a smell. Wouldn't there have been one by then, assuming KC killed Caylee on June 16th, and had her in the trunk at some point?
If we are to believe she had her hidden in the backyard until June 18th, when she borrowed the shovel, the body - now decomposing - still would have been in the trunk at some point.
Something just doesn't add up in my mind when reviewing these facts.
Any thoughts?
The dogs (two different dogs from two different counties) hit on the yard AND the car.
The body takes a few days to decompose (though it would start w/i hours).
The smell becomes obvious, when the trunk or the car doors are open, not obvious when it's sealed.
The two truck driver said he had a heavy cold, and could not smell, but a yard worker and the manager complained of the stench to LE.
What doesn't add up?
cfromcanada
10-10-2008, 05:56 PM
Reasonable doubt.
Bounty Hunter Leonard Padilla has been on every show he can be on all night including Greta. In each of these shows, what could be the "new" defense story had started to blossom via Leonard's casual remarks. The following assumes you know several things about this case thus far before reading further:
Who Casey called that wasn't a family member on June 16th (3 friends)
Where some of those people may have been or are at the present time (Georgia and Puerto Rico)
Which of these people are or were former law enforcement
In nearly every interview Leonard Padilla gave this evening, those pieces of information relate directly to the statements he made about what he believed may have happened and why he thinks Caylee is alive. As Casey's attorney Jose Baez said last night on Greta, the explanation of why Casey did not report Caylee missing for 31 days "would be covered in his opening statement" -- we think Leonard gave mondo hints about what that statement might contain tonight. For example:
Leonard said that he believed Casey gave her to a "friend" (who isn't the Gonzalez chick Casey named long ago) for a couple of days who didn't bring her back
He alluded to "Georgia" and "Puerto Rico" as where folks could be who have or have had Caylee
Jose's co-council Mike Walsh said in an MSNBC interview a couple weeks ago that one of Casey's closest friends "had mental issues"
Casey doesn't trust law enforcement
The allusion here is that one of the 3 friends would still have Caylee. (In weaving this tale, all defense parties involved would have to completely discount the car and it's contents - which we believe they have done for a while). In a murder or manslaughter defense to cast reasonable doubt, those friends would need to have an alibi for some period of time on June 16th when Caylee went missing. God forbid any of those people babysat Caylee on that day, or even just saw Casey and Caylee together that afternoon of June 16. Start thinking about it, folks. We can see this one coming, and why shouldn't we? Casey's been in jail for a month and had lots of time to create a new drama. This time though, it's going to affect people around her who DO know her.
LP changed his mind some time ago that Caylee is alive. Those statements were made when he first bonded KC out of jail.
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:27 PM
Then, there is also the fact that KC has never showed any mourning behavior. She seems to have been having the time of her life!
That every, single person with whom she even SPOKE on the phone or to whom she texted has been cleared by LE.
That no one whom KC has accused exists, ir they do exist but she doesn't even know them (JH).
SO.. if any one thinks that any OTHER person has motive, method, and opportunity,...lets hear the name and the evidence.
Thanks!:)
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:29 PM
At first glance, the pictures APPEAR to show a loving mother, I agree.
When we stop & think about Casey & her 'history' we realize...
How long does it take to snap a photo.... it's easy to look happy for a split second.
What would the pictures show IF Casey was a REAL full time mother & not just a fill in when she wasn't off having fun with her friends?
Having a cute kid is a real attention getter.... it's a positive as long as your friends are still cooing over the kid.... what happens when having a toddler around starts to make your friends feel self-conscious about their own behavior... they're young & single & want to have fun.
Are they going to be relieved when they hear your daughter is with her grandmother or off with some 'babysitter?'
Is it important to you that you still fit in with the gang... even though you have grown up responsibilities that cut into your fun time?? What do you do?
Yes, Scott Peterson's family piccies looked great, too!
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:30 PM
Please listen to all 3 911 tapes in their entirety. They tells the whole story. She concocted this story because her mom was putting her away and taking Caylee. She said right to her on the 1st call in the background if this is how its going to be, you will never see her again. Listen real close.
That she did.
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:32 PM
Is anybody else starting to get worried about the evidence from the trunk? I'm thinking it would not take very long to determine if any DNA in the trunk belonged to Caylee, and not much more than two seconds to determine if any fluids came from a cadaver as opposed from a living person.......I'm starting to wonder if there IS any evidence from the trunk that will give prosecutors a hand-hold to base charges on.
They have it from the FBI lab, and, according to them, had it triple-checked with other labs. Yeah, I think they have a TON of stuff, and we will all be smacked in the face with it.
Then,. here's the yard and the trunk-- two dogs from two different counties....
My guess is that they have assembled so much forensic evidence that even we, who are used to reading forensic reportage will be thunderstruck.
KC may be a prolific sociopath, but she couldn't plan a trip to the bathroom.
kathyn2
10-10-2008, 06:34 PM
There is a poll put up on one of the tv station websites today asking if KC should be brought up on murder charges or not. 96% say YES. 4% say no. This is just from what we know and I think LE has alot more proof and a much better case than what we even know about. People have been convicted on alot less. There is no way that reasonable jurors are not going to convict KC. There may be 1 nut on the case that wouldn't convict but if that happened the case would just be retried. Casey is going down for this case. 99.9% of the time the law works just fine and the guilty go to prison where they belong. All the stuff mentioned above about reasonable doubt and some joe blow could have found her car and put a dead caylee in it is just baloney. That isn't reasonable doubt. That is UNREASONABLE doubt.
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:35 PM
Reasonable doubt.
Bounty Hunter Leonard Padilla has been on every show he can be on all night including Greta. In each of these shows, what could be the "new" defense story had started to blossom via Leonard's casual remarks. The following assumes you know several things about this case thus far before reading further:
Who Casey called that wasn't a family member on June 16th (3 friends)
Where some of those people may have been or are at the present time (Georgia and Puerto Rico)
Which of these people are or were former law enforcement
In nearly every interview Leonard Padilla gave this evening, those pieces of information relate directly to the statements he made about what he believed may have happened and why he thinks Caylee is alive. As Casey's attorney Jose Baez said last night on Greta, the explanation of why Casey did not report Caylee missing for 31 days "would be covered in his opening statement" -- we think Leonard gave mondo hints about what that statement might contain tonight. For example:
Leonard said that he believed Casey gave her to a "friend" (who isn't the Gonzalez chick Casey named long ago) for a couple of days who didn't bring her back
He alluded to "Georgia" and "Puerto Rico" as where folks could be who have or have had Caylee
Jose's co-council Mike Walsh said in an MSNBC interview a couple weeks ago that one of Casey's closest friends "had mental issues"
Casey doesn't trust law enforcement
The allusion here is that one of the 3 friends would still have Caylee. (In weaving this tale, all defense parties involved would have to completely discount the car and it's contents - which we believe they have done for a while). In a murder or manslaughter defense to cast reasonable doubt, those friends would need to have an alibi for some period of time on June 16th when Caylee went missing. God forbid any of those people babysat Caylee on that day, or even just saw Casey and Caylee together that afternoon of June 16. Start thinking about it, folks. We can see this one coming, and why shouldn't we? Casey's been in jail for a month and had lots of time to create a new drama. This time though, it's going to affect people around her who DO know her.
LP changed ALLLL his opinions about this, after he saw the evidence.
BTW-- LE cleared everyone whom KC called, emailed, or texted. And, the ones whom she implicated don't exist.
Gaia713
10-10-2008, 06:36 PM
Yes! The "others" would have had to climb the wire fence carrying the body, put it into the trunk unseen. Then, a few days later, do the reverse.
KC would have to explain how se managed to overlook the smell, or why she had to tell several more lies to explain it.
There ARE no others. There never were.
And I don't think there will be any others either.
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:37 PM
I heard all three 911 calls, and can't believe it. Amazing...nothing surprises me anymore
:praying: for Caylee
Edited to add: In the 3rd 911 call Casey says the name of the nanny's, and spells it out for the operator. Her pronunciation is perfect and no mistakes in the spelling of the name either. Let's just say Casey sent Caylee with the nanny ZFG to Mexico. You don't need to fly to Mexico, you can drive there. Has the LE checked Mexico for Caylee?
Of course not. They HAVE the ZFG from Sawgrass. She didn't do it.
They also have too much forensic evidence that Caylee is dead, unfortunately.
Gaia713
10-10-2008, 06:38 PM
Then, there is also the fact that KC has never showed any mourning behavior. She seems to have been having the time of her life!
That every, single person with whom she even SPOKE on the phone or to whom she texted has been cleared by LE.
That no one whom KC has accused exists, ir they do exist but she doesn't even know them (JH).
SO.. if any one thinks that any OTHER person has motive, method, and opportunity,...lets hear the name and the evidence.
Thanks!:) This is a rhetorical queestion, but are there any videos of KC even putting up one missing flyer on Caylee?
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:38 PM
Totally agree.....I'm just starting to get antsy about which direction that pendulum will swing.
They don't have to release the findings, but IF they had found ANYTHING at all, they'd be beefing up the charges against Casey, don't you think?
I know Dr. Baden said it could take a year to get results back, but I respectfully disagree with him.....in high profile cases, lab tests are rushed to the front of the line. I think it's "possible" that LE has the results, and the results were disappointing. I hope I am wrong.
I'm not. I think it will swing into a certain smug little head, to the point of concussion.
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:40 PM
While there are plenty of reasons that they could be withholding charges at this point, I am starting to think there is no case. What with all this media hoopla and drama surrounding her being bonded out it seem thye would have nipped it in the bud, cut it off, filed the muder charges and argued to hold her without bail. But they didn't.
Now, they have plenty of time to put a murder case together(if that is what they think happned) and perhaps they will only file the obstruction and lying to LE. If they dump the neglect charge they can always recharge her later or if they discover some murder evidence the door is open without having to worry about the argument for double jeopardy.
If she walks out of that jail this morning I will be doubtful that they have any substantial evidence. I do not think we have any idea if Caylee is dead or alive.
If they DO have the evidence to charge her and have the ability to hold her without bond, then letting this whole exercise with Padilla play out was irresponsible.
Not if they are pretty sure where the body is, and think they'll have it before the judge rules in ten days.
Gaia713
10-10-2008, 06:40 PM
They have it from the FBI lab, and, according to them, had it triple-checked with other labs. Yeah, I think they have a TON of stuff, and we will all be smacked in the face with it.
Then,. here's the yard and the trunk-- two dogs from two different counties....
My guess is that they have assempbled so much forensic evidence that even we, who are used to reading forensic reportage will be thunderstruck.
KC may be a prolific sociopath, but she can't plan.
And another personality trait of KC's - she is VERY lazy so she wouldn't put out much effort to cover up. The body will be found KC will go down. moo
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:42 PM
Huh Just what will they convict her of using those two instances ?
I think that means it demonstrates lack of caring for Caylee-- just for the b.f.
She never ONCE asked whether anyone had news of Caylee, in any call.
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:43 PM
Why couldn't it have been dropped off sometime in the preceeding 7 hours of 6/27/08?
Yeah, like at 6:50.
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:43 PM
I have a firm belief that when this case is presented in full...the Prosecution will have left no room for any doubt at all. Their forensic evidence and all the other evidence they have obtained during the investigation including testimony will prove Caylee is deceased, she was in the care of Casey at the time, Casey will be connected directly to Caylee's death, and that there is no other way it could have taken place. I am not the least bit worried they cannot prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
You said it! I just applauded it.;-)
Brini
10-10-2008, 06:46 PM
this is what stresses me about this case....
that proves that there was definitely a smell of decomp, and KC was definitely aware of it, and definitely took steps to make it seem resonable to others etc, so on....
....but it does not prove premeditation, so I have reasonable doubt...
but could still do capital murder charge (if it was during the commision of a felony, like child abuse, etc.) but given the evidence we know at this point in time, were I on the jury, agonizing as it is for me, I would never convict for murder 1 (in the premeditated sense) because there is a great deal of doubt for me.
I was almost the last to still think it was an accident, so I'm right there with you.
Two things:1) The FBI is involved in developing the evidence. They don't usually expend a lot of energy, unless they feel sure of a conviction.
2) My guess is that they found pre-meditation in those computer forensics.
TURBOTHINK
10-10-2008, 06:48 PM
Yes, Scott Peterson's family piccies looked great, too!
Interesting to me was how KC managed to get her mug in so many of them with Caylee, which indicates she was NOT the picture taker of Caylee. I believe when it comes out CA was the one who took almost all of the pictures.
If you notice ALL the time KC had Caylee at all her friends, the park and other places there are no pictures. The pictures involve the Anthony's house or pictures of Caylee with KC which indicates her friends took them of Caylee.
TURBOTHINK
10-10-2008, 06:52 PM
"So for motive, we have nothing."
The witness statements all seem to say Casey is angry at her parents for controlling her; for motive I could say she wanted to get even with her parents for tying her down for last 3 years. Caylee was just her pawn not a separate human intitled to her own life. [this is evident by taking her to inapropriate places, putting her to sleep on a couch in the middle of a party, putting Caylee to bed with herselt and bf. Caylee had no say in these cases.
Look at the Susan Smith motive..............psychologists will testify almost all women who kill their children do it because of a relationship with a man. That is so very common along with her NEED to not be burdened with Caylee anymore. She saw her friends going to PR and doing fun things and she wanted a "piece of the pie."
Feistyoldbroad
10-10-2008, 06:52 PM
I was watching NG the other night and the woman who was filling in for her quoted Casey as saying she did not report Caylee missing because "theyre going to try to pin this on me". The substitute for NG said something to the effect of that proves her guilt. My question is: What is the "This" they are trying to pin on you? I don't get why that question wasn't addressed.
Did anybody else notice this ?
I did. Those words have haunted me from the get go. She knew then (in a backwards kinda way) what we all know now.. Casey murdered her baby girl.
Brini
10-10-2008, 07:54 PM
Interesting to me was how KC managed to get her mug in so many of them with Caylee, which indicates she was NOT the picture taker of Caylee. I believe when it comes out CA was the one who took almost all of the pictures.
If you notice ALL the time KC had Caylee at all her friends, the park and other places there are no pictures. The pictures involve the Anthony's house or pictures of Caylee with KC which indicates her friends took them of Caylee.
And, in most ofd them she wasn't looking at Cayle. She was mugging for the camera.
Brini
10-10-2008, 07:55 PM
This is a rhetorical queestion, but are there any videos of KC even putting up one missing flyer on Caylee?
Why would she put up a flyer? ;-)
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:10 PM
Does anyone know did she ever talk to Tony? ...If i was on the jury i could convict her from the 911 calls and the first call home from jail you hear no urgence in her voice at all about Caylee ..now you do hear it when she is trying to get Tony's # ...
the only emotion i have ever heard from kc is when she called 911 regarding the protesters and her dad getting into the fight!!!!!!! pathetic!!!
Brini
10-10-2008, 08:14 PM
Look at the Susan Smith motive..............psychologists will testify almost all women who kill their children do it because of a relationship with a man. That is so very common along with her NEED to not be burdened with Caylee anymore. She saw her friends going to PR and doing fun things and she wanted a "piece of the pie."
But, that kind of woman gets knocked up, again, in a heartbeat, if they think they can use the baby to pressure a man.
How scarey is THAT?:eek:
okiedokietoo
10-10-2008, 08:24 PM
the only emotion i have ever heard from kc is when she called 911 regarding the protesters and her dad getting into the fight!!!!!!! pathetic!!!
She cried at the first bond hearing when she heard that she was going to jail -
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:27 PM
She cried at the first bond hearing when she heard that she was going to jail -
oops...i forgot that one. good catch....but other than that....NADA!!!! As a mother, i would be psychotic. when i asked my husband, he said the same thing!!!!!!:eek:
leophoenix
10-10-2008, 08:30 PM
I saw some of the posts earlier about the 911 calls. Anyone have a link to downloadable audio instead of youtube flv type video? I have some studio software to clean up and enhance audio and wanted to run it through the program. Everywhere I look is flash video.
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:32 PM
will look just a sec....
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:36 PM
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/index.html
here ya go...towards bottom of page.
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:40 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/17684992/detail.html#
here is another one. they are on the bottom right. :)
leophoenix
10-10-2008, 08:44 PM
http://www.wesh.com/caseyanthony/index.html
here ya go...towards bottom of page.
Thanks, that's for the 2nd and 3rd calls. Anyone have a link for the 1st call?
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:46 PM
will go look sorry......
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:48 PM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=A36E234D6ECABD66C461C3C5F231BF73 ?contentId=7065515&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
hope that helps....
TURBOTHINK
10-10-2008, 08:49 PM
I don't think there's enough evidence leaning towards premeditation- yet. And I don't think Casey would tell the truth even though the whole thing was an accident- she will never make herself look bad, even if it means taking the heat off of a more serious conviction.
I believe they have the premeditation motive. Not sure what it is yet, but on NG it was said there was compelling evidence of PM....and that none of the really condemning evidence has even been released yet. That tells me they have a LOT coming and KC knows it. She can cry foul all she wants, but many have been convicted with a lot less circumstantial evidence than what we have seen.
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 08:51 PM
I believe they have the premeditation motive. Not sure what it is yet, but on NG it was said there was compelling evidence of PM....and that none of the really condemning evidence has even been released yet. That tells me they have a LOT coming and KC knows it. She can cry foul all she wants, but many have been convicted with a lot less circumstantial evidence than what we have seen.
in today's hearing, i understood that too. i think they said that they had a ton more evidence regarding this case; thus no problem to release some of this other stuff to defense.....i just pray that they have their case together!
leophoenix
10-10-2008, 08:51 PM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=A36E234D6ECABD66C461C3C5F231BF73 ?contentId=7065515&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
hope that helps....
Thanks, that's the Flash FLV type video I ran into. Can't do anything with that because it isn't downloadable. I'll work on those two and try to find the 1st audio later.
TURBOTHINK
10-10-2008, 08:57 PM
I was a juror on a double murder trial and let me tell you, we went over and over what constitutes "reasonable doubt". In our case, a tiny drop of one of the victims blood was enough for us to deliver a guilty verdict, though the defense tried to get us to believe that there was another person involved that committed the actual murder and his client was just in the vehicle (that person could never be produced). I think that a hair with evidence of decomposition would not be enough as it has been stated that a hair yanked from someones head that is alive with skin attached to it would show the same signs of decomposition as a hair from a deceased person, the defense will bring up all of the cases where the "air" tests have been inaccurate which in my mind, these two things would constitute reasonable doubt. Other than those two things, they have no real evidence.
1.Hair yanked from someone's head with skin attached WILL NOT show the same signs of decomposition. The body has to be in a state of decomposition with the scalp and hair "let loose" before there are "death rings" on the follicles.
2. Could you provide a link to where the decomposition air tests were proved inaccurate? I have not found one instance where they have not proved accurate in court. Keep in mind they not only have those tests but TWO cadaver dogs hitting on the same areas.
3. Interesting you say "other than those two things" they have no real evidence. Those two things are non reputable evidence. Go to U.T. Body Farm website and forensic anthropology sites to understand why I say that.
3. Those two things are just the "tip of the iceberg" of their evidence.
Chillout1989
10-10-2008, 09:12 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/caylee/index.html
last one i have found for you,......system very slow
KAITLAND
10-10-2008, 09:21 PM
Just popped in for a few seconds - my $0.02 worth: if they are looking to get reasonable doubt, they had better find 12 childless-jurors. The scientific evidence, phone/text/video evidence + the total lack of evidence of fear/remorse/sorrow from Casey = guilt. I think every mother alive has had at least one experience of that feeling of panic when they can't locate their child in the grocery store for one minute....so, 31 DAYS?? This will create absolutely NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER in any parent's mind. But, what do I know, I am just a normal "mom".
TheLoneRanger
10-10-2008, 09:36 PM
I was watching NG the other night and the woman who was filling in for her quoted Casey as saying she did not report Caylee missing because "theyre going to try to pin this on me". The substitute for NG said something to the effect of that proves her guilt. My question is: What is the "This" they are trying to pin on you? I don't get why that question wasn't addressed.
Did anybody else notice this ?
Hi Hisimage! I don't know if this helps any - I didn't see the NG show or hear that part, but the "pin it on me" part is actually from that phone call home when kc kept asking for TL's ph#.... IIRC she was speaking to KC & it was like kc said "They already said they're gonna pin this on me if they don't find her"....
which I actually took to make NO SENSE whatsoever at that time.... I was thinking "pin WHAT if they don't find her"?!!
Then later, TL claimed he got a text mssg from kc's phone [I think AH stated this to LE during her interview & asked them ask TL about it] but anyways the gist was TL allegedly got a text mssg the same day kc was 1st arrested that said something along the lines of "guess who's going to jail for a long time if they don't ever find her [Caylee]...
which was even MORE disturbing.... imo
:confused:
Brini
10-10-2008, 09:46 PM
oops...i forgot that one. good catch....but other than that....NADA!!!! As a mother, i would be psychotic. when i asked my husband, he said the same thing!!!!!!:eek:
Yes. Any real mother would.
And, a real parent would be beating done LE's doors for help, and ten dragging the FBI in.
Zoe Bogart
10-10-2008, 09:47 PM
At first glance, the pictures APPEAR to show a loving mother, I agree.
When we stop & think about Casey & her 'history' we realize...
How long does it take to snap a photo.... it's easy to look happy for a split second.
I agree with you! I've said this time and time again. People CAN look happy and loving in pictures taken during fun events (parties, holidays, a fun day at the beach) but are those pictures giving the full picture of the lives of the people in them? Of course not.
How many happy couples have we seen in pictures, lovely wedding pics, happy honeymoon shots, first holidays with the new babies, lovely family portrait? Then we hear the couple has divorced because they couldn't get along, or one has killed the other, or one has left because there was another man/woman.
Really, just HOW LONG does it take to snap a happy picture or a happy family video?
If I were on the jury, I'd be on the "guilty" side after hearing the child was missing for 31 days before the GRANDMOTHER reported it, Cindy's 911 call about the dead body smell in the damn car, and Casey's first call home when she's more worried about Tony's phone number than she ever was about her daughter, and the fact that she herself says everyone is more worried about Caylee!!!! The after all that, the LIES she told, the forensic evidence in the car..............
I believe, and even as a juror I'd believe, she was guilty of murder because if it was an accident, she would have called 911, but instead, she hid Caylee. How could I believe this was an accident?
For me, the proof is in Casey's actions.
TheLoneRanger
10-10-2008, 09:58 PM
At first glance, the pictures APPEAR to show a loving mother, I agree.
When we stop & think about Casey & her 'history' we realize...
How long does it take to snap a photo.... it's easy to look happy for a split second.
What would the pictures show IF Casey was a REAL full time mother & not just a fill in when she wasn't off having fun with her friends?
Having a cute kid is a real attention getter.... it's a positive as long as your friends are still cooing over the kid.... what happens when having a toddler around starts to make your friends feel self-conscious about their own behavior... they're young & single & want to have fun.
Are they going to be relieved when they hear your daughter is with her grandmother or off with some 'babysitter?'
Is it important to you that you still fit in with the gang... even though you have grown up responsibilities that cut into your fun time?? What do you do?
I just wanted to comment on the part you said I bolded above - I suddenly had the thought that aside from the latest couple pics from a distance of Caylee & kc walking at the oviedo property, most all of the other pics of kc & Caylee TOGETHER actually look more like web-cam type pics, or rather, self-held-pics, like the kind that you take of yourself to post online or send to someone else in email or IM.... like the kissing ones for example.... [I think Caylee has on a blue-ish nightgown & hair in pony tail] anyways, I thought those were so cute of her... now looking at it, it really seems like kc was taking most of them herself... maybe like to send to someone else [like a guy or something?]... I dunno... just imo....
Zoe Bogart
10-10-2008, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by Chillout1989 View Post
the only emotion i have ever heard from kc is when she called 911 regarding the protesters and her dad getting into the fight!!!!!!! pathetic!!!
She cried at the first bond hearing when she heard that she was going to jail -
Let's not forget her anger during her first call home. She was angry they wanted only to talk about Caylee but she only wanted Tony's phone number.
Anger is an emotion, too, don't forget.
I believe there is lots of evidence for premeditated murder. There are the chloroform and missing children's websites searches. I wouldn't doubt for one minute if Casey searched for ZG's info AFTER she killed Caylee because she had just found someone to pin it on - after she saw ZG at Sawgrass and somehow found her information. For me, searching for ZG after the murder would be the only slightly questionable part for premeditated, but somehow, I don't even think that slight bit of wonder would have me declaring her "not guilty" because there is so many overwhelming facts to the contrary, especially, not notifying anyone for a month the child was missing, making up all those lies to her mother where Caylee was during that month (Zanny in an accident story.....etc), all the lies she told to her friends, the evidence of the car, the stories she made up to account for the smell in the car, Cindy's 911 'dead body smell' call, and whatever forensics LE has.
Yes, I had one incident where my young son disappeared from my young daughter and myself in a K-Mart. I was frantic! He had somehow wandered through the clothing racks and must have looked terribly lost. A lady brought him to the front of the store and had them page the parent of "a little lost boy in red T-shirt who says he name is _______". It couldn't have been but a few minutes. To me, it seemed like ages! I ran to the front of the store, hugged my son, thanked everyone, then gave him the lecture of his life for wandering off and leaving the area with a STRANGER!!!! It never happened again.
So after that experience, I can't understand how Casey could be so casual about the disappearance of Caylee.
leophoenix
10-11-2008, 02:00 AM
Audio Background Snippets So far: Most are hard because of the poor audio quaility of the samples.
There is lots of background talk but most is hard to distinguish.
911 Call 2: KC Crying In Background On Mom's Call Wanting Her Arrested.
911 Call 3: After CA Tells Caylee's birthday KC says "You didn't have the right to go through it" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/you%20didn%27t%20have%20the%20right.mp3
911 Call 3: When CA tries to hand over the phone she says, "You'll Never Get Me To Talk To Them". http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/Never%20Going%20To%20Talk%20To%20Em.mp3
911 Call 3: After "My Daughter has been missing for 31 days." CA says, "Whatever." http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/Whatever.mp3
911 Call 3: Operator: "Did you guys call to report a vehicle stolen"-CA says, "I called" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/I%20called.mp3
911 Call 3: What vehicle was stolen? no. this is my vehicle.: CA The ? was stolen. http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/stolen.mp3
911 Call 3: When Operator is reading description of daughter back she says, "Duh" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/duh.mp3
911 Call 3: The Police Arrive: CA calmly says," Ok here comes the Sheriff are you ready for him?" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/Sheriff.mp3
Will see what other background conversation I can get out.
magic-cat
10-11-2008, 02:33 AM
Audio Background Snippets So far: Most are hard because of the poor audio quaility of the samples.
There is lots of background talk but most is hard to distinguish.
911 Call 2: KC Crying In Background On Mom's Call Wanting Her Arrested.
911 Call 3: After CA Tells Caylee's birthday KC says "You didn't have the right to go through it"
911 Call 3: When CA tries to hand over the phone she says, "You'll Never Get Me To Talk To Them".
911 Call 3: After "My Daughter has been missing for 31 days." CA says, "Whatever."
911 Call 3: Operator: "Did you guys call to report a vehicle stolen"-CA says, "I called"
911 Call 3: What vehicle was stolen? no. this is my vehicle.: CA The ? was stolen.
911 Call 3: When Operator is reading description of daughter back she says, "Duh"
911 Call 3: The Police Arrive: CA calmy says," Ok here comes the Sheriff are you ready for him?"
Will see what other background conversation I can get out.
How are you making those out? Just listening closely or do you have some sort of program that you can turn up the background somehow?
leophoenix
10-11-2008, 02:37 AM
How are you making those out? Just listening closely or do you have some sort of program that you can turn up the background somehow?
Using an audio filter program to lessen the background static. Sniping sections between the forefront conversation and increasing the volume and doing some eq. I use Goldwave sort of an audio studio type program. Sometimes slowing the voices down from 1.00-.92 to hear better amongst the leftover static. I've been using it to clean up live concert material for 15 years. If LE has the orignal files they can get better samples than me because the News audio is very low quality.
RR0004
10-11-2008, 02:39 AM
Well, I definitely remember Casey not wanting to take the phone.
Very interesting stuff...thanks for sharing.
Zoe Bogart
10-11-2008, 04:28 AM
Thanks, leophoenix. This makes it all the more interesting. I need to go back to those calls and listen again, with script in hand, of course. :book:
TakeNote
10-11-2008, 05:17 AM
Audio Background Snippets So far: Most are hard because of the poor audio quaility of the samples.
There is lots of background talk but most is hard to distinguish.
911 Call 2: KC Crying In Background On Mom's Call Wanting Her Arrested.
911 Call 3: After CA Tells Caylee's birthday KC says "You didn't have the right to go through it"
911 Call 3: When CA tries to hand over the phone she says, "You'll Never Get Me To Talk To Them".
911 Call 3: After "My Daughter has been missing for 31 days." CA says, "Whatever."
911 Call 3: Operator: "Did you guys call to report a vehicle stolen"-CA says, "I called"
911 Call 3: What vehicle was stolen? no. this is my vehicle.: CA The ? was stolen.
911 Call 3: When Operator is reading description of daughter back she says, "Duh"
911 Call 3: The Police Arrive: CA calmy says," Ok here comes the Sheriff are you ready for him?"
Will see what other background conversation I can get out.IT would be awesome if you could post it.....or put it on you tube or something
Pink Panther
10-11-2008, 05:23 AM
IT would be awesome if you could post it.....or put it on you tube or something
I agree with TakeNote! It would be great to hear this! :)
jomasano
10-11-2008, 06:08 AM
I think Baez can try any theory he wants. But anyway you look at it, her daughter was not with her anymore and she didn't know where she was for ''31 days''... according to Casey. The videos, testimony from people who saw her during that time, her text messages will tell all about her behavior and that's what is going to prove her guilty of murder.
Nowhere have we heard that she was anxious, not herself, desperate like any mother who doesn't know where her child is for a very long ''31 days''! That's not child neglect anymore, that's murder.
Let's say Baez tries the Zanny theory, she tried herself to look for her, she had a script etc. Why lie to the police on july 15 ? She should have been very happy that finally the truth was out, she would now have help to find Caylee! Noooo! She lied !
Her behavior and her lies will convict her of murder, the forensic evidence will make the case stronger, like it did for Scott Peterson.
Brini
10-11-2008, 07:39 AM
1.Hair yanked from someone's head with skin attached WILL NOT show the same signs of decomposition. The body has to be in a state of decomposition with the scalp and hair "let loose" before there are "death rings" on the follicles.
2. Could you provide a link to where the decomposition air tests were proved inaccurate? I have not found one instance where they have not proved accurate in court. Keep in mind they not only have those tests but TWO cadaver dogs hitting on the same areas.
3. Interesting you say "other than those two things" they have no real evidence. Those two things are non reputable evidence. Go to U.T. Body Farm website and forensic anthropology sites to understand why I say that.
3. Those two things are just the "tip of the iceberg" of their evidence.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap:
Brini
10-11-2008, 07:42 AM
How are you making those out? Just listening closely or do you have some sort of program that you can turn up the background somehow?
GEEZ, LOUISE! Good stuff!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
Brini
10-11-2008, 07:45 AM
Hi Hisimage! I don't know if this helps any - I didn't see the NG show or hear that part, but the "pin it on me" part is actually from that phone call home when kc kept asking for TL's ph#.... IIRC she was speaking to KC & it was like kc said "They already said they're gonna pin this on me if they don't find her"....
which I actually took to make NO SENSE whatsoever at that time.... I was thinking "pin WHAT if they don't find her"?!!
Then later, TL claimed he got a text mssg from kc's phone [I think AH stated this to LE during her interview & asked them ask TL about it] but anyways the gist was TL allegedly got a text mssg the same day kc was 1st arrested that said something along the lines of "guess who's going to jail for a long time if they don't ever find her [Caylee]...
which was even MORE disturbing.... imo
:confused:
GEEZ! Those are almost admissions!
MiraclesHappen
10-11-2008, 09:46 AM
Audio Background Snippets So far: Most are hard because of the poor audio quaility of the samples.
There is lots of background talk but most is hard to distinguish.
911 Call 2: KC Crying In Background On Mom's Call Wanting Her Arrested.
911 Call 3: After CA Tells Caylee's birthday KC says "You didn't have the right to go through it" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/you%20didn%27t%20have%20the%20right.mp3
911 Call 3: When CA tries to hand over the phone she says, "You'll Never Get Me To Talk To Them". http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/Never%20Going%20To%20Talk%20To%20Em.mp3
911 Call 3: After "My Daughter has been missing for 31 days." CA says, "Whatever." http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/Whatever.mp3
911 Call 3: Operator: "Did you guys call to report a vehicle stolen"-CA says, "I called" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/I%20called.mp3
911 Call 3: What vehicle was stolen? no. this is my vehicle.: CA The ? was stolen. http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/stolen.mp3
911 Call 3: When Operator is reading description of daughter back she says, "Duh" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/duh.mp3
911 Call 3: The Police Arrive: CA calmly says," Ok here comes the Sheriff are you ready for him?" http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/4/1407059/Sheriff.mp3
Will see what other background conversation I can get out.
Wow leoPhoenix, this stuff is amazing....will you be able to put it up somehow for us. Are you getting anything else. Am I annoying you. If so, please ignore me!:blowkiss:
pizmex
10-11-2008, 11:59 AM
Just popped in for a few seconds - my $0.02 worth: if they are looking to get reasonable doubt, they had better find 12 childless-jurors. The scientific evidence, phone/text/video evidence ....
The defense only needs one juror, not all twelve. Just one. It is the State that needs all 12 jurors for a conviction. Anything less is either an acquital (no jurors for the defense) or a hung jury (one thru 11 jurors for the defense).
Lady Loves Lurking
10-11-2008, 12:02 PM
Using an audio filter program to lessen the background static. Sniping sections between the forefront conversation and increasing the volume and doing some eq. I use Goldwave sort of an audio studio type program. Sometimes slowing the voices down from 1.00-.92 to hear better amongst the leftover static. I've been using it to clean up live concert material for 15 years. If LE has the orignal files they can get better samples than me because the News audio is very low quality.
wow. that's really cool. thanks for all the info.
kathyn2
10-11-2008, 12:39 PM
Its not exactly an acquittal. Its a mistrial. An acquittal is if ALL the jurors voted her innocent. If they had 1 juror that said not guilty, the state would retry her and she would go back to jail and await a new trial. Or to put it backwards, if even 1 juror votes her guilty, she would also go back on trial and go back to jail and wait. This gal is going down, one day or another. Just like those 2 boys that killed their parents had a mistrial, they were retried and convicted!
The defense only needs one juror, not all twelve. Just one. It is the State that needs all 12 jurors for a conviction. Anything less is either an acquital (no jurors for the defense) or a hung jury (one thru 11 jurors for the defense).
pizmex
10-11-2008, 01:02 PM
Its not exactly an acquittal. Its a mistrial. An acquittal is if ALL the jurors voted her innocent.
That's exactly what I said. Re-read my post, including the parentheses!
MysteryMachine
10-12-2008, 01:42 PM
[QUOTE=weasel;2799985] Cindy has already alluded to that when she said something to the effect of "there was no odor before the car was towed .... no odor". Homicide is going to be hard to prove without a body in this case. [QUOTE]
What does Cindy know about when the car was towed? She was not there, so that is the same as you or me saying that. Cindy also said she has not seen her DAUGHTER for a MONTH if you listen to the 9-1-1 call. How could she know if there was a smell or not when Casey had the car and Cindy had not seen her in a month? Also, if the last time Cindy saw Casey and Caylee was June 15th-16th, Caylee was obviously alive, therefore, no smell yet. Cindy is not a witness to the smell or lack of.
Next, read the DOCUMENTS, etc. You will see CASEY said there WAS a smell before the car was abandoned. Therefore, if KC knew and documented the smell was there, how can you believe Cindy who wasn't around the car at all?
KC also lied and said her DAD ran over something and he said he NEVER drove the car. Why did she lie about that unless to blame him for the obvious odor.
Then Casey goes on to say IT WAS A SQUIRREL AND I GOT RID OF IT - SO NO MORE ODOR. This is proof there was an odor before Casey abandoned the car. I believe she abandoned the car because even though she "got rid of the odor" - IMO - disposed of the body - the smell would not go away as she assumed. If you read ALL the docs out so far, and realize that there is a lot more to come, you will see a clear picture of what happened.
MysteryMachine
10-12-2008, 01:59 PM
Honestly, I think with what we have right now, she could walk on everything connected to Caylee. Yes, she has lied, but Casey was not the last verified person to be seen with the child, that would cast doubt.
As crazy as her story is, she has stuck to the important points, when, where, who.
The car showing the signs of decomp was out of her possession. Even though there are no signs of tampering, the car was out of her possession for a little while.
Since others have addressed the obvious FACTS of the case, reputable testings, samples, etc, I will address a couple points highlighted above:
WHO (name, etc.) was this "verified" person last seen with Caylee besides KC? Are you talking about in KC's land of make-believe where the people don't exist? I have read the DOCS, etc. and I do not see anyone besides KC having full responsibility of Caylee.
Wow, do you really think she has "stuck" to the who, what, when, where facts? She said Zen at the Sawgrass, then Zen at the J.Blanchard Park with her sis the accomplice, the times, people, location, etc,. are very different in both situations. Her family (based on letters KC wrote to them) stated that they KNOW who has Caylee and they are 'watching them'. They state the family is in danger, then say Caylee is not in danger. It goes round and round, so how is this sticking to the same story??
Lastly, the car, the smell, the decomp, etc. was there when KC told her friend that her car had a horrible smell, the lie that her DAD ran over something while driving it (which Dad denies). Then KC goes on to say she "GOT RID OF THE SMELL - SQUIRREL" - which IMO is when she "got rid" of Caylee.
We don't even have all the facts yet, but if you read it all, you will see a more clear picture of what happened and when.
Brini
10-12-2008, 03:58 PM
[QUOTE=weasel;2799985] Cindy has already alluded to that when she said something to the effect of "there was no odor before the car was towed .... no odor". Homicide is going to be hard to prove without a body in this case. [QUOTE]
What does Cindy know about when the car was towed? She was not there, so that is the same as you or me saying that. Cindy also said she has not seen her DAUGHTER for a MONTH if you listen to the 9-1-1 call. How could she know if there was a smell or not when Casey had the car and Cindy had not seen her in a month? Also, if the last time Cindy saw Casey and Caylee was June 15th-16th, Caylee was obviously alive, therefore, no smell yet. Cindy is not a witness to the smell or lack of.
Next, read the DOCUMENTS, etc. You will see CASEY said there WAS a smell before the car was abandoned. Therefore, if KC knew and documented the smell was there, how can you believe Cindy who wasn't around the car at all?
KC also lied and said her DAD ran over something and he said he NEVER drove the car. Why did she lie about that unless to blame him for the obvious odor.
Then Casey goes on to say IT WAS A SQUIRREL AND I GOT RID OF IT - SO NO MORE ODOR. This is proof there was an odor before Casey abandoned the car. I believe she abandoned the car because even though she "got rid of the odor" - IMO - disposed of the body - the smell would not go away as she assumed. If you read ALL the docs out so far, and realize that there is a lot more to come, you will see a clear picture of what happened.
CA said she grilled the auto yard employees and they told her there was no odor in the car when it was towed. Which was what they told LE, of course.
Brini
10-12-2008, 04:02 PM
I think Baez can try any theory he wants. But anyway you look at it, her daughter was not with her anymore and she didn't know where she was for ''31 days''... according to Casey. The videos, testimony from people who saw her during that time, her text messages will tell all about her behavior and that's what is going to prove her guilty of murder.
Nowhere have we heard that she was anxious, not herself, desperate like any mother who doesn't know where her child is for a very long ''31 days''! That's not child neglect anymore, that's murder.
Let's say Baez tries the Zanny theory, she tried herself to look for her, she had a script etc. Why lie to the police on july 15 ? She should have been very happy that finally the truth was out, she would now have help to find Caylee! Noooo! She lied !
Her behavior and her lies will convict her of murder, the forensic evidence will make the case stronger, like it did for Scott Peterson.
Exactly! Two insurmountable KC problems: Who had the baby when she disappeared? Who had the car with the decomp? Same answer.
Dutchie Treat
11-16-2008, 04:30 AM
Does anyone get the same bad feeling I'm getting reading all of this defense talk? Anthony spokesman Bart saying that there are "a lot of tips" re: an alive Caylee at Orlando Int'l Airport? Press conference planned?
I'm wondering a lot of things right now:
1. Why get Henry Lee on board if you think Caylee is alive and will be found?
2. Do you not believe she will be found in time for the trial?
3. Why wait so long to go after these tips and why just turn it into something for the media by calling a press conference?
4. Is this smoke and mirrors?
5. What did José think when he sniffed the car?
I think that the defense and the A's are trying to create reasonable doubt in any way possible and they are succeeding somewhat in the public eye.
I hope LE has a better case than what has been presented in the released documents. Reasonable doubt is going to be the strategy. They may have a chance to hang the jury this way.
Anyone else getting nervous and MAD :furious: at all of the dodging tactics of the A camp??
WholeLottaRosie
11-16-2008, 07:05 AM
Does anyone get the same bad feeling I'm getting reading all of this defense talk? Anthony spokesman Bart saying that there are "a lot of tips" re: an alive Caylee at Orlando Int'l Airport? Press conference planned?
I'm wondering a lot of things right now:
1. Why get Henry Lee on board if you think Caylee is alive and will be found?
2. Do you not believe she will be found in time for the trial?
3. Why wait so long to go after these tips and why just turn it into something for the media by calling a press conference?
4. Is this smoke and mirrors?
5. What did José think when he sniffed the car?
I think that the defense and the A's are trying to create reasonable doubt in any way possible and they are succeeding somewhat in the public eye.
I hope LE has a better case than what has been presented in the released documents. Reasonable doubt is going to be the strategy. They may have a chance to hang the jury this way.
Anyone else getting nervous and MAD :furious: at all of the dodging tactics of the A camp??
Not nervous as I think even with all the dumps of information, the prosecutors still know more than we do and still know that they can meet their burden of proof.
But, yes, the antics from the A camp never cease to amaze and tick me off - it seems like they are keeping the spotlight on them and their crazed ravings, when it should be on finding Caylee and also on other missing persons.
TxLady2
11-16-2008, 09:50 AM
Here is my answers to your questions:
1. Why get Henry Lee on board if you think Caylee is alive and will be found?
To help the defense in Casey's case. They need all the help they can get.
2. Do you not believe she will be found in time for the trial?
What does this matter what WE believe... it is what the jury believes that will
[I]matter.
3. Why wait so long to go after these tips and why just turn it into something for the media by calling a press conference?
[I]In all fairness, they probably have checked these tips when they came in, but are
now trying to convince the public, i.e., jury pool, that Caylee is alive and Casey is
innocent.
4. Is this smoke and mirrors? Yes
5. What did José think when he sniffed the car?
You need to ask Jose... we're not mind readers.
Okay, seriously now... everyone has the right to a defense attorney when they go on trial, and it is the defense attorney's job to create reasonable doubt. They don't have to prove anything... that is the prosecution's job. So I really do not understand what the problem is here. Don't worry about them right now. Unless you are picked to be on the jury, all you can do... all WE can do... is wait for the trial and see what happens.
Henry Lee's credibility was shot during the M. Peterson case and the Phil Specter case. He's pretty smart... but he'e not a magician.
TripleA
11-16-2008, 10:04 AM
Okay, seriously now... everyone has the right to a defense attorney when they go on trial, and it is the defense attorney's job to create reasonable doubt. They don't have to prove anything... that is the prosecution's job. So I really do not understand what the problem is here. Don't worry about them right now. Unless you are picked to be on the jury, all you can do... all WE can do... is wait for the trial and see what happens.
Henry Lee's credibility was shot during the M. Peterson case and the Phil Specter case. He's pretty smart... but he'e not a magician.
I agree, she has the right to a defense. All of this smoke and mirrors just makes me think that she is guilty of intentionally murdering Caylee. If it were an accident, it would seem that playing the grieving mother, admitting her mistake and begging for mercy would be more likely to work in her favor. This circus just makes her look worse IMO, as if she knows that if/when Caylee's body is found it will prove malintent and maybe even premeditation.
FloridaKatz
11-16-2008, 10:32 AM
Not nervous as I think even with all the dumps of information, the prosecutors still know more than we do and still know that they can meet their burden of proof.
But, yes, the antics from the A camp never cease to amaze and tick me off - it seems like they are keeping the spotlight on them and their crazed ravings, when it should be on finding Caylee and also on other missing persons.
ITA. The DA would not have waited so long and then handed down a Murder 1 charge if they didn't think they have what it takes to get a conviction. They know ALOT more than we do.
The A's are just trying to get a jump start on swaying the potential jury pool here in Florida, IMHO .....:rolleyes:
Mysteeri
11-16-2008, 11:58 AM
Not nervous as I think even with all the dumps of information, the prosecutors still know more than we do and still know that they can meet their burden of proof.
But, yes, the antics from the A camp never cease to amaze and tick me off - it seems like they are keeping the spotlight on them and their crazed ravings, when it should be on finding Caylee and also on other missing persons.
One thing I don`t understand. A lot of people are saying that the A`s are doing nothing to find Caylee, and that they are using publicity for, well, other than to find Caylee. But in almost every interview they`ve brought up the issue of finding (alive) Caylee, and that that`s their priority. Now wouldn`t publicity be useful if you were trying to find a missing child? It seems to me that whatever the A`s do, it`s always wrong.
One thing I don`t understand. A lot of people are saying that the A`s are doing nothing to find Caylee, and that they are using publicity for, well, other than to find Caylee. But in almost every interview they`ve brought up the issue of finding (alive) Caylee, and that that`s their priority. Now wouldn`t publicity be useful if you were trying to find a missing child? It seems to me that whatever the A`s do, it`s always wrong.
they have also yelled and screamed at the publicity..they want the publicity but ON CA's TERMS ONLY---the want everyone else to look for Caylee but won't offer anything to it themselves. No one from that family has ever asked for her return (at least as far as I've heard)--instead we are told to wait until trial--if they know "information" they need to share it... jmo
kgeaux
11-16-2008, 12:22 PM
ITA. The DA would not have waited so long and then handed down a Murder 1 charge if they didn't think they have what it takes to get a conviction. They know ALOT more than we do.
The A's are just trying to get a jump start on swaying the potential jury pool here in Florida, IMHO .....:rolleyes:
The polluting of any potential jury started long ago, and it's not been in Casey's advantage.
songline
11-16-2008, 12:26 PM
Is anybody else starting to get worried about the evidence from the trunk? I'm thinking it would not take very long to determine if any DNA in the trunk belonged to Caylee, and not much more than two seconds to determine if any fluids came from a cadaver as opposed from a living person.......I'm starting to wonder if there IS any evidence from the trunk that will give prosecutors a hand-hold to base charges on.
REASONABLE DOUBT is what I believe they will walk out with, :(
From the day that George cleaned that car, and Cindy washed Casey's pants etc.....
I have been posting that They know they lost one and will do anything to save the other one.
SURE I think we should worry about that car. I even think the forensic specialist Mr. Lee will say whatever he is paid to say; I also think that George being an "ex" LE knows exactly what he is and isn't doing;
IMHO not giving the volunteer group one of Caylee's article of clothing is another way to buy more time. The less real evidence they walk into court with, the more I believe that Casey will get sentenced for something and get out fast on good behavior. :(
songline
11-16-2008, 12:36 PM
One thing I don`t understand. A lot of people are saying that the A`s are doing nothing to find Caylee, and that they are using publicity for, well, other than to find Caylee. But in almost every interview they`ve brought up the issue of finding (alive) Caylee, and that that`s their priority. Now wouldn`t publicity be useful if you were trying to find a missing child? It seems to me that whatever the A`s do, it`s always wrong.
They talk from both sides of their mouth; one day the car smells like death, the next day they refuse to give the volunteers a garment for the dogs to know the baby's scent.
From the start they say they want to search but refuse to go out early on with flayers.
Common nothing has been rational here.
The only thing that seems consistent to me is they cleaned the car, they pretend to believe the daughter they say is always, stealing and lying, that Caylee is alive after smelling that car.
I'd have to say that as parents they are between a rock and a hard place, but their goal is to save Casey; that has been the only consistent thing...
They talk about Caylee, but have made no effort in finding or helping to find her because they know the baby is gone.
kgeaux
11-16-2008, 12:47 PM
REASONABLE DOUBT is what I believe they will walk out with, :(
From the day that George cleaned that car, and Cindy washed Casey's pants etc.....
I have been posting that They know they lost one and will do anything to save the other one.
SURE I think we should worry about that car. I even think the forensic specialist Mr. Lee will say whatever he is paid to say; I also think that George being an "ex" LE knows exactly what he is and isn't doing;
IMHO not giving the volunteer group one of Caylee's article of clothing is another way to buy more time. The less real evidence they walk into court with, the more I believe that Casey will get sentenced for something and get out fast on good behavior. :(
I think they have hired Mr. Lee because the FBI conclusions were so.....unconclusive. If Mr. Lee can widen that hole, we'll hear alot of what he has to say. If Mr. Lee tells the Anthony's that he believes the evidence of decomp. not only points to a human source, but to little Caylee herself, we will not hear one word of what he has to say.
I do agree with you also about Casey's behavior. It's hard to believe that someone who was as active as she was can settle down and behave in jail, but she seems to have done just that.
SeriouslySearching
11-16-2008, 12:47 PM
One thing I don`t understand. A lot of people are saying that the A`s are doing nothing to find Caylee, and that they are using publicity for, well, other than to find Caylee. But in almost every interview they`ve brought up the issue of finding (alive) Caylee, and that that`s their priority. Now wouldn`t publicity be useful if you were trying to find a missing child? It seems to me that whatever the A`s do, it`s always wrong.OK. Let's take a look at the way they are using the media to find Caylee.
Have they shown any sense of urgency in their plea to the supposed kidnappers? Have they begged for mercy for Caylee? Have they asked the kidnappers to give them any signs of life from her? Have you seen them one time appear to be concerned that Caylee may be with people who are raping, torturing, abusing, or otherwise harming her? They don't even appear to get that since they do not know where she is...these things could certainly be happening to her every minute of every day!! Where is the concern?!
Please look at any other missing child case and the loved ones searching endlessly. They are out everyday surrounded by anyone they can find to pass out fliers on every street corner, in every business, and to every vehicle in parking lots. They are knocking on strangers' doors to ask questions and ask for help near where the child was last seen. They are begging for help from any stranger to look anywhere with no restrictions or rules placed on them.
They are on television to appeal to people who could have their loved one not to harm them and to return them with tears in their eyes while working in concert with the FBI and LE standing beside them all the way. They have friends and family who support their efforts because they are doing the right thing by actively searching. They are out looking in wooded areas, in dumpsters, in parks, and in every conceivable place you could find a missing person. They are not under some tent telling people to "get off their @sses" and find their loved one!
They have done nothing besides rake in money for non-existent searches, sell t-shirts, drive around a billboard, and defend Casey...the very person who LE has proof that murdered their grandchild and who has been charged with First Degree Murder and Manslaughter With Aggravating Circumstances.
Hmmmm...so yes...I can say everything they do is wrong, imo. It is not in Caylee's best interest. It is not bringing Caylee closer to home. It cannot be considered to be anything but wrong when it is only serving a purpose for Casey's defense! GRRRRR! :mad:
Jolynna
11-16-2008, 12:54 PM
Casey is entitled to reasonable doubt where reasonable doubt exists.
But that should not include mocking fact or enabling a single lie.
As the sheriff's office said, Caylee's body still needs to be found and laid to rest. Pretending this isn't so and that Casey has been an excellent mother is like saying "pigs fly".
What is, IS. It needs to be dealt with and the right thing respectfully done.
IMO
panthera
11-16-2008, 12:57 PM
I think they have hired Mr. Lee because the FBI conclusions were so.....unconclusive. If Mr. Lee can widen that hole, we'll hear alot of what he has to say. If Mr. Lee tells the Anthony's that he believes the evidence of decomp. not only points to a human source, but to little Caylee herself, we will not hear one word of what he has to say.
I do agree with you also about Casey's behavior. It's hard to believe that someone who was as active as she was can settle down and behave in jail, but she seems to have done just that.
I totally agree about Dr. Lee. It may turn out we hear nothing from him and I doubt he'll continue his services pro bono either. As for Casey I believe she's smart enough to realize she has to behave in jail or she'll lose what privileges she has. MOO
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