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JBean
08-21-2008, 01:02 AM
I notice that many of you that feel Casey killed Caylee think it was accidental or unintentional through carelessness.
Is that because she does not have a violent background? Is it because she is young mom and we can't imagine that she could do this to her child intentionally?

What is it that makes many of you say accidental vs intentional?
Why don't you think she just killed her like we have seen other young mothers do?

edited title and added some wording in the post.

mysteriew
08-21-2008, 01:10 AM
Actually I can't make up my mind what I think on this one.

In some ways she acts like a kid who wasn't very responsible and who would be likely to leave her kid in a car while she did whatever during the day, or who might leave her kid in a trunk while she was in a bar. She also seems like the kind who might get tired of being a 'mommy' and might 'give' her child away. But I don't really think that one happened.

OTOH, she also seems like the type who wasn't emotionally bonded with her child. Someone who might be jealous over the attention the child got. Someone who might be so determined that the person wanting custody should not win, that she would be willing to kill for it. Not because she wanted Caylee, but because she didn't want Cindy to have her.

Sherbie
08-21-2008, 01:12 AM
I have to say that all the pictures play a part for me in feeling it had to be unintentional. I know photos don't tell the whole story, but there are so many of them and in all of them, she and Caylee look so happy and like there is a lot of love there. I don't know what is going on with Casey now, but I don't see her as having intentionally killed Caylee.

Unintentionally, through neglect or doing something she shouldn't have -- definitely. But that really isn't an "accident" in the true sense of the word. An accident is something you could have no way of foreseeing or avoiding as a result of your actions. Also, she could have lost her temper and hurt Caylee, again unintentional -- but not an accident.

I think we may need a third choice -- "unintentional, but not an accident" (she could or should have foreseen that death or bodily harm might result from her actions).

CASuzk
08-21-2008, 01:14 AM
I am of the mind that it was accidental but the type of accident that would have brought her world to an end as she knew it. The accident would possibly brought notice to other people, especially if the accident involved Caylee finding and eating some drugs Casey had in her car.
She is very immature and she was stalled out. She was living with mom and dad, her peers are starting adult lives and she has no good prospects on the horizon. Her only true chance of changing that situation was hard work or some white knight to come along.

Her lies seem hastily crafted. Susan Smith and Dianna Downs had very rehearsed tales about what happened to their children. By contrast, Casey seem to make it up as it goes along. When you look at her pattern of telling lies, it would be odd that as practiced as she was with her stories, that she didn't have time to make up a better one.

JBean
08-21-2008, 01:18 AM
I have to say that all the pictures play a part for me in feeling it had to be unintentional. I know photos don't tell the whole story, but there are so many of them and in all of them, she and Caylee look so happy and like there is a lot of love there. I don't know what is going on with Casey now, but I don't see her as having intentionally killed Caylee.

Unintentionally, through neglect or doing something she shouldn't have -- definitely. But that really isn't an "accident" in the true sense of the word. An accident is something you could have no way of foreseeing or avoiding as a result of your actions. Also, she could have lost her temper and hurt Caylee, again unintentional -- but not an accident.

I think we may need a third choice -- "unintentional, but not an accident" (she could or should have foreseen that death or bodily harm might result from her actions).
OK I will revise it to be Intentional Vs Unintentional.

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 01:20 AM
Accidental or intentional.... who knows?

As a matter of fact, who cares anymore.....

Casey has INTENTIONALLY refused to lead LE to find Caylee... despite the pleading of her mother, her father or even her brother.

Casey makes a mockery of motherhood AND she spits in the face of law enforcement's tireless efforts to bring Caylee home.

Who knows whether she'll EVER grow up & take any personal responsibility for the total mess she has made her life & the countless people she has devastated? I doubt it. I think she's already convinced herself that she's a victim & maybe even feels more comfortable living in a controlled environment where she doesn't have to deal with REAL LIFE like a normal adult would.

What a wasted life. It's just too bad she had to destroy so many other innocent lives BEFORE she imploded.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 01:20 AM
Neither, there are not enough facts to make me believe she is dead!

JBean
08-21-2008, 01:23 AM
Neither, there are not enough facts to make me beleive she id dead!
I certainly won't argue with that AA. But there are plenty here that believe Caylee is dead and it *seems like most of them feel it was not intentional.

I find it interesting because it is though they are giving her a break and I am wondering why.


* just my humble opinion no scientific data available :)

JBean
08-21-2008, 01:27 AM
I am of the mind that it was accidental but the type of accident that would have brought her world to an end as she knew it. The accident would possibly brought notice to other people, especially if the accident involved Caylee finding and eating some drugs Casey had in her car.
She is very immature and she was stalled out. She was living with mom and dad, her peers are starting adult lives and she has no good prospects on the horizon. Her only true chance of changing that situation was hard work or some white knight to come along.

Her lies seem hastily crafted. Susan Smith and Dianna Downs had very rehearsed tales about what happened to their children. By contrast, Casey seem to make it up as it goes along. When you look at her pattern of telling lies, it would be odd that as practiced as she was with her stories, that she didn't have time to make up a better one. I agree about her stories.
Seems like if she murdered her daughter and had 31 days to prepare and she was a habitual liar she would have come up with something believable.

JBean
08-21-2008, 01:29 AM
Accidental or intentional.... who knows?

As a matter of fact, who cares anymore.....

snipped only for emphasis.

I care LI_Mom. I really do.

JBean
08-21-2008, 01:33 AM
Actually I can't make up my mind what I think on this one.

In some ways she acts like a kid who wasn't very responsible and who would be likely to leave her kid in a car while she did whatever during the day, or who might leave her kid in a trunk while she was in a bar. She also seems like the kind who might get tired of being a 'mommy' and might 'give' her child away. But I don't really think that one happened.

OTOH, she also seems like the type who wasn't emotionally bonded with her child. Someone who might be jealous over the attention the child got. Someone who might be so determined that the person wanting custody should not win, that she would be willing to kill for it. Not because she wanted Caylee, but because she didn't want Cindy to have her.Hi mysteriew..good to see you. Why do you feel that Casey had not bonded with Caylee?

NighTillDawn
08-21-2008, 01:37 AM
I'm trying to put myself in Casey's shoes. I can't, you know why? I have three children. When I think back to all the near misses I had with them, anything could have happened. My son thought he was superman when he was 4 yrs old, broke his collar bone. They thought he was abused when we brought him into the hospital. Let's say when he flew down the stairs, he hit his head ( god forbid ) and died. What would be the first thing we would do? Call 911. Now sure, we wouldn't think that they would think we abused our son and killed him, but that's what it would have looked like to them never the less. Panic? No...we would have called 911 immediately and wouldn't have thought twice about it.

My younger daughter..she was running around once like a mad woman and slammed her head into the wall. She had a bump on her head that was like a watermelon. I believe she had a slight concussion, and we watched her to make sure she didn't go to sleep or have any symptoms like throwing up etc, which would have required immediate attention. Again, if something god forbid was to happen, would we hesitate calling 911? Never...

That's why I can't fathom Caylee's disappearance an accident if she's not with us. If someone has an accident, unless trying to protect yourself from something, you would call 911 immediately. Casey's keeping quiet is protecting one person and one person only ...Casey. I believe Caylee was in a tug of war between her mother and grandmother. Casey left with Caylee. According to Cindy's 1st 911 call, you hear Cindy saying something to the effect of taking her to court and getting Caylee. Then you hear Casey saying " give me one more day ", and Cindy saying " i've already given you a month ". She calls 911, I believe at first as a threat to Casey so she will tell Cindy where Caylee is, but Casey doesn't budge. So Cindy threatens Casey and tells her she is going to call 911. Casey says go ahead, so Cindy does it. Cindy begins to tell the officer that someone stole her car and money. When pressed, she says her daughter. Call #2 was just a continuation because Cindy had called the wrong precinct in call #1. In call #3 thats when you hear Cindy all hysterical about Caylee. Either Casey refused to tell Cindy where Caylee was after the 2nd call, or Cindy already knew that Caylee was missing. Judging from phone call #3 I don't think so because if you listen very carefully she is talking with Casey in between when on hold. Anyway, this case has gotten me way bonkers and I don't think any of us will ever be the same.

:praying: for Caylee

peace9274
08-21-2008, 01:38 AM
I'm wondering why there isn't more emphasis on Cindy finding the pool ladder up (after the last swim June 15th?) and the gate open. (I dont recall when she found them.)

Did Casey and Caylee return home one day when no one else was home and go into the pool? Did Casey find Caylee floating at the bottom of the pool and then rushed out in a hurry... not bothering to return the steps and close the gate?

Was Casey hoping that Caylee might drown and that she'd revive Caylee, but just enough to scare Cindy? Was it a plan that went too far and Casey realized she couldn't bring Caylee back at all?

Was Casey intoxicated, on the computer, asleep..... and then found Caylee?

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 01:40 AM
I agree about her stories.
Seems like if she murdered her daughter and had 31 days to prepare and she was a habitual liar she would have come up with something believable.

Not necessarily....

we know she's very lazy.... why put much effort into thinking things through? She's a real under-achiever.... even her lying is lazy as crap.

we know she was busy partying & having fun. Now she was like her friends.... no kid to worry about & no parents breathing down her back. Casey probably felt more alive that month than she ever had before.

we know she never had much trouble in the past getting people to believe or at least 'accept' her lies & back off.... so she's been well conditioned to think her lies are pretty darned effective.

we can also assume she might not have wanted to think about what she did OR what would happen when she was found out so she just put it out of her mind.

JBean
08-21-2008, 01:41 AM
Not necessarily....

we know she's very lazy.... why put much effort into thinking things through? She's a real under-achiever.... even her lying is lazy as crap.

we know she was busy partying & having fun. Now she was like her friends.... no kid to worry about & no parents breathing down her back. Casey probably felt more alive that month than she ever had before.

we know she never had much trouble in the past getting people to believe or at least 'accept' her lies & back off.... so she's been well conditioned to think her lies are pretty darned effective.

we can also assume she might not have wanted to think about what she did OR what would happen when she was found out so she just put it out of her mind.
That is very possible.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 01:44 AM
I also wonder why more isn't mentioned about why George filed for divorce and then decided to not proceed with it.

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 01:50 AM
I care LI_Mom. I really do.

Well, I hope you know when I said "who cares" I was talking about not caring WHETHER it was accidental or intentional....

IMO, an innocent baby is dead and the so called mother is playing some kind of sick game as if it's just some college prank or something.

If Casey had even a shred of humanity in her, she'd confess everything she knows & throw herself on the mercy of the D.A.

The final straw for me was when we heard that despicable excuse, she didn't report Caylee missing because 'I knew they'd PIN IT ON ME.'


Nope, I don't personally care HOW Caylee's death came to be.... only that this 'mother of the year' is brought to justice.

(But I do understand that it's an important question that the prosecution will have to examine & present to the jury. )

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 01:58 AM
I also wonder why more isn't mentioned about why George filed for divorce and then decided to not proceed with it.

I betcha the defense will bring that up to try to explain some of Casey's emotional problems.

They better come up with SOME reason that poor Casey is such a mess.

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:04 AM
I also wonder why more isn't mentioned about why George filed for divorce and then decided to not proceed with it.
Howdy Peace. I guess the relevancy of that remains to be seen. IMO, I'm not sure how it would come into play..but we shall see. :)

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:05 AM
I also wonder why more isn't mentioned about why George filed for divorce and then decided to not proceed with it.

There was a poster by the name of Rick on another board who claimed to be Cindy's brother. He sounded quite credible as he had a lot of information that has not been released to the public.

When asked about George drawing a pension he replied: "He gets no pension from Trumbull County where he worked for 10 years. He had a job as a pest control guy and twisted his knee and filed workers comp. Prior to that he worked for the Sentinel. He hurt himself there too. He had just started a job with a security co. and this mess started and he lost that job."

In reply to a question about George's temper " He said from what he had heard and seen, he did have a temper problem."

He also said that Cindy had 3 brothers and NONE of them had been questioned about anything.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:08 AM
Hi JB- I guess it really isn't relevent, but just wondering out loud.

And my imagination going wild, since there's nothing new to dwell upon.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:08 AM
I betcha the defense will bring that up to try to explain some of Casey's emotional problems.

They better come up with SOME reason that poor Casey is such a mess.

I think they will use her "seizure disorder" as her defense and claim she had a psycho-motor seizure and had NO MEMORY of any of it.

They can document that with all the seizure drugs she took and her not being able to get a driver's license because of it.

My question is WHY in the world would her parents let her drive their car with that baby with no license and subject to a seizure at any time?

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 02:09 AM
Well, I hope you know when I said "who cares" I was talking about not caring WHETHER it was accidental or intentional....

IMO, an innocent baby is dead and the so called mother is playing some kind of sick game as if it's just some college prank or something.

If Casey had even a shred of humanity in her, she'd confess everything she knows & throw herself on the mercy of the D.A.

The final straw for me was when we heard that despicable excuse, she didn't report Caylee missing because 'I knew they'd PIN IT ON ME.'


Nope, I don't personally care HOW Caylee's death came to be.... only that this 'mother of the year' is brought to justice.

(But I do understand that it's an important question that the prosecution will have to examine & present to the jury. )

How do you know she is dead?

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:10 AM
I think they will use her "seizure disorder" as her defense and claim she had a psycho-motor seizure and had NO MEMORY of any of it.

They can document that with all the seizure drugs she took and her not being able to get a driver's license because of it.

My question is WHY in the world would her parents let her drive their car with that baby with no license and subject to a seizure at any time?
Was she on anticonvulsants? Do you know which ones? I did not know that.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:12 AM
So was George's job as a security guard the job people are saying is the one with LE?????

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:13 AM
I think they will use her "seizure disorder" as her defense and claim she had a psychomotor seizure and had NO MEMORY of any of it.

They can document that with all the seizure drugs she took and her not being able to get a driver's license because of it.

My question is WHY in the world would her parents let her drive their car with that baby with no license and subject to a seizure at any time?

Complex partial seizures (psychomotor seizures) are called "complex" because they impair consciousness and "partial" because they begin in a limited area of the brain. Most complex partial seizures are associated with some automatic behaviors, termed automatisms.

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:15 AM
Complex partial seizures (psychomotor seizures) are called "complex" because they impair consciousness and "partial" because they begin in a limited area of the brain. Most complex partial seizures are associated with some automatic behaviors, termed automatisms.
My son is epileptic. he doesn't remember a thing from hours before through hours after. he very combative during his post ictal phase and it can be very difficult.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:17 AM
So was George's job as a security guard the job people are saying is the one with LE?????

No, he worked in Trumbull County, Ohio in law enforcement for 10 years according to reports. WHY he left has not been told. Someone on one of the talk shows said that they had to file bankruptcy and lost their house there due to gambling debts before they moved to Florida.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:22 AM
Aha... thanx, Turbo, for that info.

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 02:25 AM
I think they will use her "seizure disorder" as her defense and claim she had a psycho-motor seizure and had NO MEMORY of any of it.

They can document that with all the seizure drugs she took and her not being able to get a driver's license because of it.

My question is WHY in the world would her parents let her drive their car with that baby with no license and subject to a seizure at any time?


The ONLY mention of a "seizure" was when one of her male friends drove her to the hospital one night.


We have NO CLUE what might have caused a seizure OR if that was the only one she ever had..... OR if it really was a seizure & not some overdose or alcohol poisoning.

No mention of "seizure drugs" or any follow up care..... it seems IF Casey did have a medical condition, Cindy would have used it in her defense of Casey's wacky behavior.... maybe after the rotting pizza defense. lol


I suppose if it's true & it can help the defense her lawyer can get the records from the E.R.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:26 AM
My son is epileptic. he doesn't remember a thing from hours before through hours after. he very combative during his post ictal phase and it can be very difficult.

Psychomotor seizures are not common, and can be identified easily with CT-Scan or MRI..........they look totally different than petit mal seizures, or Tonic-Clonic ones. so if she has another type and tries to pass them off as Psychomotor seizures they will catch her. They affect only the temporal lobe in an MRI or CT scan.

During a complex partial seizure, a person cannot interact normally with other people, is not in control of his or her movements, speech or actions; doesn't know what he or she is doing; and cannot remember afterwards what happened during the seizure.

Although someone may appear to be conscious because he or she remains standing with eyes open and moving about, it will be an altered consciousness - a dreamlike, almost trancelike state.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 02:28 AM
Psychomotor seizures are not common, and can be identified easily with CT-Scan or MRI..........they look totally different than petit mal seizures, or Tonic-Clonic ones. so if she has another type and tries to pass them off as Psychomotor seizures they will catch her. They affect only the temporal lobe in an MRI or CT scan.

During a complex partial seizure, a person cannot interact normally with other people, is not in control of his or her movements, speech or actions; doesn't know what he or she is doing; and cannot remember afterwards what happened during the seizure.

Although someone may appear to be conscious because he or she remains standing with eyes open and moving about, it will be an altered consciousness - a dreamlike, almost trancelike state.

How do you know some much about seizures?

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:29 AM
The ONLY mention of a "seizure" was when one of her male friends drove her to the hospital one night.


We have NO CLUE what might have caused a seizure OR if that was the only one she ever had..... OR if it really was a seizure & not some overdose or alcohol poisoning.

No mention of "seizure drugs" or any follow up care..... it seems IF Casey did have a medical condition, Cindy would have used it in her defense of Casey's wacky behavior.... maybe after the rotting pizza defense. lol


I suppose if it's true & it can help the defense her lawyer can get the records from the E.R.

I don't think Cindy would have told it because they could charge her for child endangerment since she let Casey drive her automobile with no license and subject to seizures. I think that is PART of what they are hiding.

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:29 AM
Psychomotor seizures are not common, and can be identified easily with CT-Scan or MRI..........they look totally different than petit mal seizures, or Tonic-Clonic ones. so if she has another type and tries to pass them off as Psychomotor seizures they will catch her. They affect only the temporal lobe in an MRI or CT scan.

During a complex partial seizure, a person cannot interact normally with other people, is not in control of his or her movements, speech or actions; doesn't know what he or she is doing; and cannot remember afterwards what happened during the seizure.

Although someone may appear to be conscious because he or she remains standing with eyes open and moving about, it will be an altered consciousness - a dreamlike, almost trancelike state.
Yes I have seen most of these types of seizures first hand through my son and others.
But I haven;t seen that she had a documented seizure disorder but only the one seizure that has been almost casually mentioned.
Thanks for your informative posts.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:30 AM
How do you know some much about seizures?

Nursing school..............

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:31 AM
Although someone may appear to be conscious because he or she remains standing with eyes open and moving about, it will be an altered consciousness - a dreamlike, almost trancelike state
when my son went through these types of seizures I thought he was just ignoring me before I put it together. lol

tonic clonics are easy to spot of course, but drop seizures were a bit tricky.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:33 AM
when my son went through these types of seizures I thought he was just ignoring me before I put it together. lol

They are hard to identify sometimes. Particularly petit mal ones, because they just lose small periods (few seconds) of time many times over the course of a day.

I am glad you found the cause.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:35 AM
I'm a nurse, too, Turbo... what department do you work in?

I've been a psych nurse for 26 yrs... in the private sector for 10 yrs and now in a state-run facility.

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:35 AM
They are hard to identify sometimes. Particularly petit mal ones, because they just lose small periods (few seconds) of time many times over the course of a day.

I am glad you found the cause.
Very hard to spot. he had a hard time in school because he would miss chunks of information because he was *absent* I can spot them easily now.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:37 AM
I'm a nurse, too, Turbo... what department do you work in?

I've been a psych nurse for 26 yrs... in the private sector for 10 yrs and now in a state-run facility.

I work in the trauma unit, but am trying to retire by cutting back to two 12 hour shifts a week. LOL

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 02:37 AM
What do you know about the medication called sabril?

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:37 AM
Very hard to spot. he had a hard time in school because he would miss chunks of information because he was *absent* I can spot them easily now.

How old was he, JBean, when he was first diagnosed, if you don't mind me asking?

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:39 AM
I work in the trauma unit, but am trying to retire by cutting back to two 12 hour shifts a week. LOL

Before I moved to CT, I worked on the medical floor and then the ER at Children's Hosp in los Angeles.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:40 AM
Very hard to spot. he had a hard time in school because he would miss chunks of information because he was *absent* I can spot them easily now.

Many children don't get them identified and they get behind in their work in school and get frustrated.

I have seen kids who were placed in Special Ed because they "thought" they were disruptive ,non-cooperative and LD and no one ever looked for a physical explanation

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:41 AM
How old was he, JBean, when he was first diagnosed, if you don't mind me asking?
from ages 1 1/2 -5 petit and gran mals then
he had drop seizures and petit mals seizures from ages 5-18 and then started having tonic clonic (grand mal) 18 to 21. he is on a good med and driving, but he still struggles.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:42 AM
Before I moved to CT, I worked on the medical floor and then the ER at Children's Hosp in los Angeles.

I don't think I could do children's hospital. We see enough without having all children. I trained in a "downtown" hospital in a large city, so we saw it all come through that trauma unit.

I considered working with Med-Flight, but decided I was too "tired"......LOL

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:44 AM
Many children don't get them identified and they get behind in their work in school and get frustrated.

I have seen kids who were placed in Special Ed because they "thought" they were disruptive ,non-cooperative and LD and no one ever looked for a physical explanation
My son was diagnosed ealry but was seizure free..or so we thought. once he went to school he started having drop seizures around 8 but we still didn;t realize he was missing information from his petit mals until later.

His tonic clonic seizures came back with a vengeance around 18. we kept him unmedicated all those years though and I am glad for that.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:44 AM
from ages 1 1/2 -5 petit and gran mals then
he had drop seizures and petit mals seizures from ages 5-18 and then started having tonic clonic (grand mal) 18 to 21. he is on a good med and driving, but he still struggles.

What is so scary to parents and the patient is you never know when one will occur. I admire you for getting his identified and treated so young.

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:46 AM
What is so scary to parents and the patient is you never know when one will occur. I admire you for getting his identified and treated so young.
Well he is 21 and driving and even though the lamictal has kept him seizure free for about 2 years now,....I still worry of course.

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 02:47 AM
I don't think Cindy would have told it because they could charge her for child endangerment since she let Casey drive her automobile with no license and subject to seizures. I think that is PART of what they are hiding.

So far the ONLY mention of this alleged seizure was a buddy who described it as a "seizure." He's not a doctor & we don't know if he used the term correctly or maybe ONLY because he was fudging the truth to protect her.

I reserve the right to believe this is probably another half-truth in the life of Casey Anthony.

As far as the learner's permit.... it's also possible her license might have lapsed & she never bothered to tell her parents. The insurance company might check your license info when you first take out a policy but I doubt they check all their policies every six months to make sure people are only being billed for currently LICENSED DRIVERS. If you get into an accident, they'll simply refuse to pay if you're not a licensed driver.

Let's remember Casey is a 22 year old WOMAN... fully responsible for all her own actions & crimes & screw ups.

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:47 AM
he likes to have them in the shower which makes me NUTS. I have found him on the shower floor with the water running up his nose.

JBean
08-21-2008, 02:48 AM
So far the ONLY mention of this alleged seizure was a buddy who described it as a "seizure." He's not a doctor & we don't know if he used the term correctly or maybe ONLY because he was fudging the truth to protect her.

I reserve the right to believe this is probably another half-truth in the life of Casey Anthony.

As far as the learner's permit.... it's also possible her license might have lapsed & she never bothered to tell her parents. The insurance company might check your license info when you first take out a policy but I doubt they check all their policies every six months to make sure people are only being billed for currently LICENSED DRIVERS. If you get into an accident, they'll simply refuse to pay if you're not a licensed driver.

Let's remember Casey is a 22 year old WOMAN... fully responsible for all her own actions & crimes & screw ups.
I'll be anxious to hear more about her seizure and her driving.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:49 AM
Well he is 21 and driving and even though the lamictal has kept him seizure free for about 2 years now,....I still worry of course.

Well, if you think about it, diabetics, heart disease patients and many others are subject to loss of consciousness too, so he is one of the lucky ones if you have to "pick" a problem from the list of many. LOL

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:50 AM
"....... but decided I was too "tired"......LOL

I'm working on the easiest floor now (I've off for a few days right now) and don't plan on changing! I'm too tired also..... and just waiting to retire, trying to get my pension a little bigger.

The last of my 3 sons just graduated from college, so now I'm on my own (to hang out at WS whenever I want and for as long as I want) and all my $$$ is my own!!!

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 02:50 AM
he likes to have them in the shower which makes me NUTS. I have found him on the shower floor with the water running up his nose.

Yikes!!!! Scary.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 02:52 AM
I'll be anxious to hear more about her seizure and her driving.

All I know, (and don't know it for a fact) is they had a discussion on one of the TV shows about her "seizure disorder" being the reason she could not get a driver's license.

If you think about it, you get a "learner's permit" at 15 - this is 7 years later, so may be some truth to it.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 02:56 AM
What do you know about the medication called sabril?

I don't know anything about it. Only what I googled. We mainly use lamictal, and a few others, where I work.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 03:02 AM
I don't know anything about it. Only what I googled. We mainly use lamictal, and a few others, where I work.

Thanks!

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 03:03 AM
I don't know anything about it. Only what I googled. We mainly use lamictal, and a few others, where I work.

I don't know if the FDA has approved it yet for use. I know they did some trials but I haven't seen it where I work. They may have approved it by now, as that would not be something we would routinely use in my unit.

I know one of the reasons it was being held up was because of the high percentage of people who had retina damage using it.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 03:04 AM
I don't think the FDA has approved it yet for use. I know they did some trials but I haven't seen it where I work. They may have approved it by now, as that would not be something we would routinely use in my unit.

I know one of the reasons it was being held up was because of the high percentage of people who had retina damage using it.

No they haven't my nephew is the longest patient taking it. He 8 years old and they get it from Canada.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 03:06 AM
If Casey were taken to the ER because of a seizure, I imagine the bill was pretty big. I doubt she has medical insurance. I hope someone was carrying Caylee on theirs.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 03:06 AM
No they haven't my nephew is the oldest patient taking it. He 8 years old and they get it from Canada.

Do other medications not work? That is a high risk drug in my opinion if it can case retina damage and blindness.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 03:07 AM
If Casey were taken to the ER because of a seizure, I imagine the bill was pretty big. I doubt she has medical insurance. I hope someone was carrying Caylee on theirs.

Cindy stated on her my space that she carried Caylee on her insurance.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 03:09 AM
Cindy stated on her my space that she carried Caylee on her insurance.

Well, that's good. Did she have legal guardianship, that you know of?

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 03:09 AM
Do other medications not work? That is a high risk drug in my opinion if it can case retina damage and blindness.

Nope, he has had infantile spasms starting at 6 months of age. They jsut tested his eyes in feb. His case is some what of a puzzle even to his doctors.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 03:10 AM
Well, that's good. Did she have legal guardianship, that you of?

She would have to have in my state to carry her on the insurance, but with all the other crazy things in that family.....WHO KNOWS?

That may be what this is all about, her taking Caylee away from the "party animal."

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 03:11 AM
Nope, he has had infantile spasms starting at 6 months of age. They jsut tested his eyes in feb. His case is some what of a puzzle even to his doctors.

Infantile spasms usually go away in a few years, and most of time are caused by a temp which goes up real rapidly.

sweetwater
08-21-2008, 03:12 AM
Cindy stated on her my space that she carried Caylee on her insurance.

This is the first mention I have seen of Cindy posting on her myspace anything about Caylee. Do you have the text someplace?

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 03:14 AM
Infantile spasms usually go away in a few years, and most of time are caused by a temp which goes up real rapidly.

I know, or turn into another type of seizure.

TURBOTHINK
08-21-2008, 03:15 AM
This is the first mention I have seen of Cindy posting on her myspace anything about Caylee. Do you have the text someplace?

She has taken her page down, but if you go Scared Monkey Forum, someone had posted all her writings on MY Space before she closed it.

This is not the right thread, but you can look for it from here:

http://*************.net/index.php?topic=3266.1340

peace9274
08-21-2008, 03:17 AM
This is the first mention I have seen of Cindy posting on her myspace anything about Caylee. Do you have the text someplace?

I've only seen the one about her angel missing, being taken away from her... over jealousy, etc. I think it was July 3rd or 4th. Here's the link I have:

http://cayleeanthony.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/deleted-comments-from-cindy-casey-anthony-on-myspace/

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 03:19 AM
I've only seen the one about her angel missing, being taken away from her... over jealousy, etc. I think it was July 3rd or 4th. Here's the link I have:

http://cayleeanthony.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/deleted-comments-from-cindy-casey-anthony-on-myspace/

Oh yes, it says I paid her medical bills.

peace9274
08-21-2008, 03:24 AM
Oh yes, it says I paid her medical bills.

Well, shows ya how well I retain stuff after I read it!!!!!

:(

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 03:27 AM
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
Well, shows ya how well I retain stuff after I read it!!!!!

:(

sweetwater
08-21-2008, 03:34 AM
Thanks to all!
I'll see how much I can retain, in my sleep and exercise deprived state.
This info on the insurance really got my attention, because Cindy said in the bond hearing that she really didn't know how to post on myspace, or something to that effec

icherish
08-21-2008, 08:31 AM
What is it that makes many of you say accidental vs intentional?
Why don't you think she just killed her like we have seen other young mothers do?

edited title and added some wording in the post.


For me, Casey's behavior is not fitting the picture of premeditation.

Historically... Susan Smith and Darlie Routier come to mind...killer mothers move immediately to simultaneously reveal and cover up their crime. There is no hesitation because they made a plan, dramatic story and all. Even though their stories are completely false, they do have a somewhat cohesive story to report right away.

Casey appeared to be making up stuff as she went along. Not only did she go a whole month without saying a word to anyone; even when she did report Caylee missing, her story made not one iota of sense. There is also indication Caylee's body may have been moved around (decomp smell in the car as well as the dog hit in the yard) To me, this together can be construed as fear and hesitation on Casey's part to hide what really happened... because it was accidental and not intentional.

From what I've heard...LE seems to be theorizng it was accidental, too.

Love_Mama
08-21-2008, 09:17 AM
As sick as Casey is I have never thought she intentionally killed Caylee.

I honestly think she loved her daughter but somehow got caught up in the Club crowd, doing recreational drugs and liking the attention suddenly realized that she was missing a life having to take care of Caylee. In other words, don't think this one is 1st degree murder.

Her club buddie's didn't tell Casey what to do like her mom did. They liked little Caylee but never felt responsible for her well being and the more clubbing, and more recreational drugs Casey did, the less attention she gave to Caylee.

I have no idea how Caylee may have accidentally died. The easy guess, maybe given some xanax......or something like that to keep her quiet and she overdosed. That to me sound's the most reasonable.

That poor precious child!


xxxxxxxxxooo
mama
:blowkiss::blowkiss:

MvD
08-21-2008, 09:28 AM
Ya know.. my first thoughts on this was it was accidental/unintentional.. but the thing I keep coming back to, is IF that were the case.. wouldnt a mother's ONLY response be to immediately call 911 for help?? I mean.. GOD forbid.. even if a mother got so outta control that she knocked a kid in anger.. and the child was seriously injured.. wouldnt the first and ONLY reaction be to call for help.. regardless of how the child got harmed? Maybe its just because I soo cannot get my mind around the idea of any other reaction other than calling for medical help. The more Ive learned in this case, and from hearing those initial calls Cindy made to 911 and the taped jail conversations, just have made me more and more inclined to think of Casey much more as a Susan Smith/Diane Downs kinda person..

maskedwoman
08-21-2008, 09:51 AM
Neither, there are not enough facts to make me believe she is dead!

I understand how you would feel that way. However, what gives me a real sense of unease about Caylee's status is that her attorney is so zealously shielding her from LE. I can't think of a reason why he would so such a thing
if she were truly alive, because it would truly endanger her life.

I would like to believe that no one would tell such stupid lies, but sociopaths and narcissists do exactly that and fully expect everyone to believe them.

One thing that struck me is that Casey denied she was pregnant until she was nearly 7 months gone (I have this from two sources). Now THAT is a really stupid lie. As a nurse, her mother should have been able to tell she was lying. Yet, no one challenged her on it. If they can let a lie like that go unchallenged, I can see why she would think the stupid lies she's told so far would suffice.

maskedwoman
08-21-2008, 09:52 AM
Ya know.. my first thoughts on this was it was accidental/unintentional.. but the thing I keep coming back to, is IF that were the case.. wouldnt a mother's ONLY response be to immediately call 911 for help?? I mean.. GOD forbid.. even if a mother got so outta control that she knocked a kid in anger.. and the child was seriously injured.. wouldnt the first and ONLY reaction be to call for help.. regardless of how the child got harmed? Maybe its just because I soo cannot get my mind around the idea of any other reaction other than calling for medical help. The more Ive learned in this case, and from hearing those initial calls Cindy made to 911 and the taped jail conversations, just have made me more and more inclined to think of Casey much more as a Susan Smith/Diane Downs kinda person..

You are right. Statistically, almost 100% of the time, parents call 911 even when it's obvious nothing can be done. They are hoping for a miracle. The fact that Casey didn't call tells me either it was deliberate or an accident she was glad to see happen.

kbay5
08-21-2008, 10:52 AM
Another poster mentioned her saying in one of her jail conversations that the are going to pin this one her. I think this is very telling that Caylee is no longer alive. Because otherwise what would there be to pin on her. If she is simply missing at the hands of another this would be easy enough to figure out (if she were to tell the truth about it) and there would be no questions of Casey's innocence. They already pinned the child neglect on her because she neglected to report her daughter missing, so if that were her only crime in the matter she would not have any more to worry about getting pinned on her. I think she admitted right there that something serious happened to Caylee.
That being said I do believe 100% that it was intentional, maybe not planned out over a long period of time. I think it was maybe a rash decision and probably thought out and carried out within only a few hours. This is why she was not prepared to cover it up and only afterwards began trying to figure out how to cover her tracks, losing a phone, figuring out how to connect a nanny etc... There is no way you could go out and party and hang out with friends afterwards unless it were intentionally planned. She had worked out her grief before she had even done it and after she was finished she had rather accomplished a goal than done something horrible. Now she was able to go forward with her life as foreseen by her.

Had it been an accident she definately would have reported it, even if it were in some way her fault. Don't you think with all of the lies she has told that she could not have thought up some way to explain an accident that would bring some attention and sympathy to her "a grieving mother". She is too self preserving to not tell who the kidnappers are or to not admit to an accident if she thought it would help her. The problem is that if she were to say it were an accident then she would have to lead them to a body and they would likely be able to prove otherwise.

I also think that even if there were other parties involved she would not hesitate a second to expose them in order to get herself off or a plea bargain or something, I could even see her pinning it on them. Even if it could possibly cause harm to Caylee to point to the alleged kidnappers she would still tell because she cares far more about herself. If she could get herself out of jail and harm actually came to Caylee at least it would not be her fault.

The problem is she did not plan this out beforehand in order to cover her butt, there is not an accomplice, there is not a kidnapper, and it was not an accident. She has no outs and knows it, therefore she is waiting and hoping for some way to get out of her intentional crime.

mazajo
08-21-2008, 11:46 AM
I have no doubt that Casey is immature, selfish, a drama queen and a habitual liar. But what would be the motive for her intentionally killing Caylee? Casey's parents took care of Caylee from what I can see, Casey had her freedom. I think Melinda Duckett wanted freedom and revenge, Susan Smith wanted freedom and sympathy. But what would have been Casey's motive?

olive
08-21-2008, 12:06 PM
No grief or guilt.

Therefore, had to be intentional. No question.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 12:06 PM
I understand how you would feel that way. However, what gives me a real sense of unease about Caylee's status is that her attorney is so zealously shielding her from LE. I can't think of a reason why he would so such a thing
if she were truly alive, because it would truly endanger her life.

I would like to believe that no one would tell such stupid lies, but sociopaths and narcissists do exactly that and fully expect everyone to believe them.

One thing that struck me is that Casey denied she was pregnant until she was nearly 7 months gone (I have this from two sources). Now THAT is a really stupid lie. As a nurse, her mother should have been able to tell she was lying. Yet, no one challenged her on it. If they can let a lie like that go unchallenged, I can see why she would think the stupid lies she's told so far would suffice.

Have you read the letter her attorney wrote on July 21, 2008 to LE? And have you listened to the lead detective's testimony?

impatientredhead
08-21-2008, 02:24 PM
I have seen this accidental thing thrown around and frequently in the context of leaving Caylee in the car so Casey could go do something, or drugging her and having her sleep in the trunk. To me neither of those is an accident, that is a willful choice with predictable consequences. I think it was intentional, maybe a fit of rage type of thing... the only "accident" I see making sense in this is if Casey was taking drugs of some sort and Caylee got hold of them and ODed. She wouldn't call the police in that case because the death would be her fault. If this is what happened, I think she took Caylee in the backyard, put the ladder back on the pool and thought of staging a drowning, realized that wouldn't work either, and eventually ended up with her in the trunk.

Amity
08-21-2008, 04:07 PM
I've only skimmed some of the posts because I don't want what others say to influence me but still feeling the same as I did when this first started I believe if Caylee is hurt/deceased, it was done intentionally.
ie; Casey intentionally gave Caylee too much drug. Left her intentionally with someone untrustworthy, intentionally hit Caylee too hard, etc.

No matter. By the time precious Caylee is found it will probably be very hard to determine cause of death (unless there are obvious marks on the bones) and Casey will feign "ooopsy, accident!" and nobody will be able to prove any different.

And we only know Casey had a seizure because that's what Casey told her mother.
We don't/probably won't ever know if it was indeed a seizure because of medical/privacy laws.
But if Casey didn't want to tell her mother the truth it would have been easy enough for her to tell mother it was a seizure and who's going to know the difference.
Casey is over age. There is no doctor that will discuss her condition with her Mother unless Casey gave specific written (verbal in the case of my own private doctor) approval.

I want to say a special Thank You to all of you who are in the field or through family experience and have been able to really enlighten me about seizures....so very appreciated!

Fandy
08-21-2008, 04:41 PM
I have no doubt that Casey is immature, selfish, a drama queen and a habitual liar. But what would be the motive for her intentionally killing Caylee? Casey's parents took care of Caylee from what I can see, Casey had her freedom. I think Melinda Duckett wanted freedom and revenge, Susan Smith wanted freedom and sympathy. But what would have been Casey's motive?

Casey may have given birth, but she never bonded with her child because her mother took care of Caylee....Casey resumed her regular life which is probably what she wanted. she was in denial about the pregnancy if you believe what her *uncle* wrote, so once again george and cindy picked up Casey's mess....only this time it was a gem, a beautiful baby, they loved her and cherished her....which must have really pi***ed Casey off.... so she took that revenge when the time came....she distroyed her responsibilities and devesatated and punished her parents all in one simple act.

if this scenario were true, she really is a sociopathic monster, no matter what her age. jmo

LI_Mom
08-21-2008, 05:48 PM
I've only skimmed some of the posts because I don't want what others say to influence me but still feeling the same as I did when this first started I believe if Caylee is hurt/deceased, it was done intentionally.
ie; Casey intentionally gave Caylee too much drug. Left her intentionally with someone untrustworthy, intentionally hit Caylee too hard, etc.

No matter. By the time precious Caylee is found it will probably be very hard to determine cause of death (unless there are obvious marks on the bones) and Casey will feign "ooopsy, accident!" and nobody will be able to prove any different.

And we only know Casey had a seizure because that's what Casey told her mother.
We don't/probably won't ever know if it was indeed a seizure because of medical/privacy laws.
But if Casey didn't want to tell her mother the truth it would have been easy enough for her to tell mother it was a seizure and who's going to know the difference.
Casey is over age. There is no doctor that will discuss her condition with her Mother unless Casey gave specific written (verbal in the case of my own private doctor) approval.

I want to say a special Thank You to all of you who are in the field or through family experience and have been able to really enlighten me about seizures....so very appreciated!

Oh, I think we WILL know whether the seizure story is true or not.....

IF it's true, the defense has every reason to reveal the records & call the attending doctor to testify...... IF there really WAS a seizure involved & it wasn't actually just a drug or alcohol overdose.

IF there is no hospital records to back up this claim of a seizure Casey, I'd assume the defense would be mighty happy to point out to the jury that her friends are liars & their testimony is worthless.

txsvicki
08-21-2008, 06:22 PM
I'd find it hard to believe an accident due to all that was going on with the family, job, finances, and new boyfriend at the time. There seems to be motive, a previous plan to move out, but yet there was no job and lies about a babysitter. Casey knew she couldn't support a child, and Cindy was giving her chances to change, and was probably going to lose the family's vehicle. Maybe she will never be charged with anything having to do with a death, and it could have been a rage incident, but I'm sure LE is making sure that there was no premeditation.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 07:08 PM
why would she have a motive? Her mom and dad would have taken her and she would have then been free to do as she pleases.

impatientredhead
08-21-2008, 07:21 PM
why would she have a motive? Her mom and dad would have taken her and she would have then been free to do as she pleases.

Susan Smith had an exhusband that would have taken them.
Diane Downs had options.
Baby Grace's paternal grandparents wanted her.
Doesn't remove motive unfortunately.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 07:31 PM
Susan Smith had an exhusband that would have taken them.
Diane Downs had options.
Baby Grace's paternal grandparents wanted her.
Doesn't remove motive unfortunately.

I don't know all these cases sorry. I will check into them to educate myself on each of these you mention.

Bobby62
08-21-2008, 07:48 PM
I notice that many of you that feel Casey killed Caylee think it was accidental or unintentional through carelessness.
Is that because she does not have a violent background? Is it because she is young mom and we can't imagine that she could do this to her child intentionally?

What is it that makes many of you say accidental vs intentional?
Why don't you think she just killed her like we have seen other young mothers do?



I think Caylee is no longer with us. I think it was an accident. I base this on the cadaver dogs. They hit by the pool, and apparently by the shed. I think Caylee drowned, then the flurry of calls happened. When she got no response on the phone I think her first thought was how much trouble she had been in lately. I think she hid Caylee in the shed. When the Gparents left the next day I think she backed the car up, put Caylee in the trunk, stole some gas, then brought Caylee somewhere out by the airport and disposed of her. I think Casey has always been lazy and did not put Caylee more than 50 yards from where she was able to drive to.

sweetwater
08-21-2008, 08:19 PM
I have read and watched several different sources regarding the search of the backyard and the car. In reading the sworn testimony of the cadaver dog handler, I see that she mentions asking George about and "indentation" in the backyard. He was unfamiliar with that indentation. At that point the first dog handler searched the entire yard.
Does anybody know any more about that "indentation" and the whole digging up and moving of a plant or tree that the Anthony's carried out? I am vague about when that happened and I think it is intriguing. The plant or tree had been by the side of the pool.
I am also unsure exactly when the Pontiac was impounded. Does anybody have that information? Along the line of the car, why, AutomaticAuttie, do you think that the family would have been without a vehicle with Casey moving out? I have read that that car was Lee's, or used by Lee, and then given to Casey to drive some time back.

housemouse
08-21-2008, 08:19 PM
Howdy Peace. I guess the relevancy of that remains to be seen. IMO, I'm not sure how it would come into play..but we shall see. :)

Count back about three years, then back about 6 to 9 months.... anyone else wonder?

newuser
08-21-2008, 08:26 PM
My first thought was not Caylee was dead, but that Casey had sold her. Given the evidence of the smell, shovel, etc...... I have accepted that she is probably not alive anymore. I don't think it was intentional just because Casey seems so scatter-brained and disorganized, I can't believe she could have planned all this. I think she has lived her life going from day to day and telling whatever lies jumped into her head. This one was too big to handle that way and now she's in a mess.

sweetwater
08-21-2008, 08:31 PM
Hi peace- I think there's been an exaggeration of his Le enforcement background. Apparently he was a deputy sheriff for about 10 years in Ohio, until 1989.

Ciara
08-21-2008, 08:33 PM
I doubt very much what happened to Caylee was an accident. I believe if she drowned it was very much deliberate:(

STEADFAST
08-21-2008, 08:33 PM
I don't think Casey killed Caylee by accident. The shock and horror would have been overwhelming -- and yet the pictures we have seen demonstrate that she acted quite happy and relaxed shortly after the last time anyone except her saw Caylee. She doesn't even look like she's lacking sleep in those pictures!
This is also why I don't think someone kidnapped, or "kept" Caylee. A normal mother separated involuntarily from her child would be sick, worried about all kinds of things that her child might be experiencing or feeling, wondering if her child was crying for her, etc.
On the other hand, mothers who kill their children on purpose have accomplished their goal -- spited someone, gained some freedom, or whatever unimaginable motive they might have. These are the mothers who party happily afterwards.

newuser
08-21-2008, 08:36 PM
LI_Mom; I hadn't thought about what you said about it doesn't matter now whether it was intentional or not. She is intentionally withholding the truth NOW. That changes the way I feel about a lot of it. Really, good thought.

AutomaticAuttie
08-21-2008, 09:18 PM
I have read and watched several different sources regarding the search of the backyard and the car. In reading the sworn testimony of the cadaver dog handler, I see that she mentions asking George about and "indentation" in the backyard. He was unfamiliar with that indentation. At that point the first dog handler searched the entire yard.
Does anybody know any more about that "indentation" and the whole digging up and moving of a plant or tree that the Anthony's carried out? I am vague about when that happened and I think it is intriguing. The plant or tree had been by the side of the pool.
I am also unsure exactly when the Pontiac was impounded. Does anybody have that information? Along the line of the car, why, AutomaticAuttie, do you think that the family would have been without a vehicle with Casey moving out? I have read that that car was Lee's, or used by Lee, and then given to Casey to drive some time back.

Can you post the link to the sworn testimony of the cadaver dog handler? The only thing I saw on the "indentation" was on an interview with Greta. I haven't heard that the car was Lee's and no, I don't think the family would be without a car to drive.

kbay5
08-21-2008, 09:38 PM
I have read and watched several different sources regarding the search of the backyard and the car. In reading the sworn testimony of the cadaver dog handler, I see that she mentions asking George about and "indentation" in the backyard. He was unfamiliar with that indentation. At that point the first dog handler searched the entire yard.
Does anybody know any more about that "indentation" and the whole digging up and moving of a plant or tree that the Anthony's carried out? I am vague about when that happened and I think it is intriguing. The plant or tree had been by the side of the pool.
I am also unsure exactly when the Pontiac was impounded. Does anybody have that information? Along the line of the car, why, AutomaticAuttie, do you think that the family would have been without a vehicle with Casey moving out? I have read that that car was Lee's, or used by Lee, and then given to Casey to drive some time back.

Do you have a link to this sworn testimony, I can't find it anywhere but I remember seeing something about them moving a hibiscus bush/tree or some plant like that. I can't remember all of the details but it was said that they moved it to put the pool chest in its place because the chest was right up against the pool and Caylee had started to climb on it. Not sure who the source was on this or even if it is correct but it would be interesting to put it all together since you are saying that George said he didn't know what the indentation was and Cindy said it was from moving a bush. Hmmmm. I smell cover up.

EastSideOfSaddness
08-21-2008, 11:24 PM
Accidental or intentional.... who knows?

As a matter of fact, who cares anymore.....

Casey has INTENTIONALLY refused to lead LE to find Caylee... despite the pleading of her mother, her father or even her brother.

Casey makes a mockery of motherhood AND she spits in the face of law enforcement's tireless efforts to bring Caylee home.

Who knows whether she'll EVER grow up & take any personal responsibility for the total mess she has made her life & the countless people she has devastated? I doubt it. I think she's already convinced herself that she's a victim & maybe even feels more comfortable living in a controlled environment where she doesn't have to deal with REAL LIFE like a normal adult would.

What a wasted life. It's just too bad she had to destroy so many other innocent lives BEFORE she imploded.

You are completely on point! Great post!

txsvicki
08-21-2008, 11:36 PM
why would she have a motive? Her mom and dad would have taken her and she would have then been free to do as she pleases.


Maybe freedom was a motive without ever having to pay any child support, sympathy and never having to pay back any stolen money, keep a vehicle to drive, have a place to stay part time, and have a new boyfriend. Never arguing over having the responsibility of a fatherless child again or having her prefer to stay with her grandmother could be a motive if this turns out to be a premediated murder. Just my opinion on stuff the public has been told.

STEADFAST
08-21-2008, 11:50 PM
why would she have a motive? Her mom and dad would have taken her and she would have then been free to do as she pleases.

Maybe she killed her in anger. Maybe she killed her in jealousy. Maybe Caylee was saying, "I want Grandma, not you." Maybe she killed her in frustration because she couldn't get a sitter. Maybe she killed her to punish Cindy and George. Maybe she killed her because she wet her pants or wouldn't be quiet -- that's been known to happen.

sweetwater
08-22-2008, 01:22 AM
Can you post the link to the sworn testimony of the cadaver dog handler? The only thing I saw on the "indentation" was on an interview with Greta. I haven't heard that the car was Lee's and no, I don't think the family would be without a car to drive.

Sorry, I have had ISP problems and then this server was too busy to let me on!
I'll get you that link, now. In fact, it may be here in the Documents, Audio,... thread. I'll check.
I guess I just misunderstood the car/vehicle comment. Sorry.

Cagney
08-22-2008, 11:42 AM
I am not sure whether or not I feel it was accidental/unintentional or intentional.
Casey's frantic phone calls from the 16th-18th show panic. That I guess can point to an accident or unintentional.
But then Casey's behavior in the weeks leading up to the initial missing child report make me think that maybe it could have been intentional. Out partying, lying about where Caylee was etc....
She has yet to grieve for her daughter. Even if she truly has been kidnapped, any mother would be beside herself and completely distraught. Casey isn't. Never has been, never will be. She isn't sad. She isn't worried.

And like another poster already said, it doesn't matter whether it was intentional or unintentional- she is intentionally not helping to find her daughter, intentionally trying to weave this web of deceit. Intentionally didn't report her daughter missing for 30 days. That alone speaks volumes.

sweetwater
08-22-2008, 12:02 PM
Do you have a link to this sworn testimony, I can't find it anywhere but I remember seeing something about them moving a hibiscus bush/tree or some plant like that. I can't remember all of the details but it was said that they moved it to put the pool chest in its place because the chest was right up against the pool and Caylee had started to climb on it. Not sure who the source was on this or even if it is correct but it would be interesting to put it all together since you are saying that George said he didn't know what the indentation was and Cindy said it was from moving a bush. Hmmmm. I smell cover up.

I looked for this for about 2 hours last night and can't find it anywhere! I last read it on Tuesday night; I really can't figure out why it's not available anymore. I didn't bookmark it because it was so readily accessible.
If someone else has it, would you please post a link?

The bush thing is interesting, isn't it? I'll work on piecing this together.

lostnfound85
08-22-2008, 12:57 PM
THe accident theory pushes the coincidence factor too much - she disappears the very day Casey goes on her sabbatical? To me the opposite, much more sinister theory is true, that Casey planned to get rid of Cayley, i.e. first degree murder. She also planned to dispose of the body in the FLorida heat in which she knew it would quickly decompose. Then, to cover her tracks, she doesn't tell anyone for a month. SHe 's a classic murderer -no remorse, lie after lie to cover up the facts, if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, it's probably a murderer.

commongrackle
08-22-2008, 01:10 PM
I have a question...why does anyone keep saying Casey might have left Caylee in the trunk of her car?

kidz110
08-22-2008, 01:15 PM
I looked for this for about 2 hours last night and can't find it anywhere! I last read it on Tuesday night; I really can't figure out why it's not available anymore. I didn't bookmark it because it was so readily accessible.
If someone else has it, would you please post a link?

The bush thing is interesting, isn't it? I'll work on piecing this together.
Look in the transcripts from Greta's show. Cindy talked about it during an interview with Greta.

sweetwater
08-22-2008, 01:20 PM
Look in the transcripts from Greta's show. Cindy talked about it during an interview with Greta.

Right, but I have read, 3 times, the actual transcript of the testimony made by the deputy who handles the dogs. That's what I can't find now.
One thing I have learned here is to save everything when I find it.

LI_Mom
08-22-2008, 01:43 PM
I have a question...why does anyone keep saying Casey might have left Caylee in the trunk of her car?

It's just a theory because of the smell, stain & hair found in the trunk.

LI_Mom
08-22-2008, 01:47 PM
Look in the transcripts from Greta's show. Cindy talked about it during an interview with Greta.

How credible is ANYTHING Cindy or George said/say anyway?

They've shown they're intent on defending Casey & backing up all her lies & imo, that makes everything they say suspect.

Cagney
08-22-2008, 03:25 PM
I wish I could decide how I feel....The more I read the more I think it was intentional though. Reading the myspace comments makes me think it was a bit premeditated. Idk, hopefully something new will turn up and we will have somewhere else to look.

LinasK
08-22-2008, 07:59 PM
All I know, (and don't know it for a fact) is they had a discussion on one of the TV shows about her "seizure disorder" being the reason she could not get a driver's license.

If you think about it, you get a "learner's permit" at 15 - this is 7 years later, so may be some truth to it.

Years ago, I dated a guy who had a seizure disorder. He took meds. He was able to obtain a driver's license and steady work. Not a valid excuse for Casey not holding a job, IMO...

LinasK
08-22-2008, 08:05 PM
Maybe she killed her in anger. Maybe she killed her in jealousy. Maybe Caylee was saying, "I want Grandma, not you." Maybe she killed her in frustration because she couldn't get a sitter. Maybe she killed her to punish Cindy and George. Maybe she killed her because she wet her pants or wouldn't be quiet -- that's been known to happen.

I think you're on the right track, this woman is a Sociopath of the variety of Susan Smith or Scott Peterson. Motherhood meant nothing to her but photo ops, so I think it was intentional!

JBean
08-22-2008, 08:09 PM
All I know, (and don't know it for a fact) is they had a discussion on one of the TV shows about her "seizure disorder" being the reason she could not get a driver's license.

If you think about it, you get a "learner's permit" at 15 - this is 7 years later, so may be some truth to it.
Howdy Turbo. It doesn't make sense at all that she would have a learner's permit.Unless it is very old I suppose. Once you are over 18 learners permits are not required so I can't make sense of this story.
Unless it is some sort of conditional license that is referred to erroneously as a learner's permit?

If she is on some sort of medical probation that wouldn't require a learners permit either... so dunno??

JBean
08-22-2008, 08:15 PM
Years ago, I dated a guy who had a seizure disorder. He took meds. He was able to obtain a driver's license and steady work. Not a valid excuse for Casey not holding a job, IMO...Good to see you here Linas. Not every seizure disorder manifests itself the same way. Many epileptics cannot control their seizures through meds or even through surgery.
Often seizure disorder are accompanied by other neurological and psychological issues. OCD, depression and other issues often go hand in hand with epilepsy and it can create a big problem fitting into the work force.
But, you are right in that many people that suffer from some form of seizure disorder have great jobs. There are some right here on this board.

ETA: This is just as an aside,as I do not even see where Casey even has a disorder at this point with the limited info available.

PeteyGirl
08-22-2008, 08:46 PM
Hi everyone, my first post here :) Major lurking now over!

I believe Casey killed Caylee unintentionally, and as disturbed as Casey is, it was a matter of time before something horrible befell that precious child.

She is profoundly, bottomlessly selfish, to the point the special welfare of a toddler would "escape" her attention. Not to mention she is so unique and special that nothing bad could possibly happen to her, and if it did, she could lie or blame someone else (it always worked before).

I can imagine Cindy being all over Casey for not paying close enough attention to Caylee while Caylee was in her care. Knowing Casey's personality disturbance, I'll bet my next paycheck on the fact that child has had many "injuries" that a more observant, er, "normal" mother would easily have prevented.

I think Casey didn't give a crud if Caylee lived or died -- not in the same way you or I care. Such personality disturbances prevent motherly feelings, or foresight to prevent injury, or foresight to prevent other consequences.

She wouldn't react to accidentally killing Caylee in a "normal" way, either, so using her cold, calculated reactions as 'proof' of intentional killing doesn't make sense to me. If Casey broke an antique vase, instead of tearfully confessing and begging to repair it or reimburse, she'd clean up the mess and say "What vase, Mom?"

Same with that little one :( . She's covering her a$$ because she doesn't want to get in trouble. I'm an old psychiatric nurse and this young "lady" is a classic sociopath. That baby was doomed to an accident or some catastrophe as long as she was in her mother's care. SO, so sad.

Petey

JBean
08-22-2008, 09:07 PM
welcome peteygirl!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69116

PeteyGirl
08-22-2008, 09:42 PM
welcome peteygirl!

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69116

Thanks :blowkiss: and I put my stuff over there :)

txsvicki
08-22-2008, 11:47 PM
If Casey had never stolen from the grandparents before, the theft right before Caylee went missing could also indicate some plan in place to try and get as much money together as possible. We also don't know for sure when Amy's 700$ was stolen before she went on her trip. It could have been the week between June 9th and 15th.

Cagney
08-28-2008, 03:56 AM
I wanna bump this back up- I am wondering since so many that were holding on to hope for little Caylee have changed their minds, what do you think now?
Intentional? unintentional/accidental?

DotsEyes
08-28-2008, 06:17 AM
Intentional.

Intent does not mean that she planned ahead; just that the act she committed was intentional and that reasonable people would expect that death or serious bodily injury would result from such an act.

For example, an enraged person hits another person on the side of the head, the fist was made, swung and connected. This hitting was intentional. Now say that the
other person falls to the ground, splitting their head open on an object, and dies. There was no intention to kill, but reasonable people would agree that hitting someone that hard would likely result in serious injury or death. We do not look at the result intended, but rather the intentional act which resulted in the death.

Let's say someone gives a baby a Xanax so the baby would sleep, but the baby dies. The result intented was not to kill the baby, the intentional act was to give the baby a Xanax. Reasonable people would agree that giving a baby a Xanax would cause serious harm or death.

KC did not panic. She went to Tony's to party and have sex for the next month. She didn't miss a beat. When the car ran out of gas, she discarded it, called Tony to rescue her and never looked back. Same thing with Caylee. Discarded the baby, went to Tony's and never looked back. This is what psychos do - plain and simple.

We can not comprehend it because we are not psycho.

wallflower67
08-28-2008, 06:25 AM
Up until I read the 400 pages, I had thought it was an accident. I now think Casey killed her on purpose to spite Cindy and originally made it look like an accident.

I think the flurry of phone calls was part of the plan of making it look like an accident.. Sort of a " you kicked us out, I had no way to take care of Caylee, look what happened."

When her parents didn't answer, she knew she needed to dispose of the body.

TxLady2
08-28-2008, 06:42 AM
Hi, just joined. I enjoyed all your responses. It's still hard for me to believe Casey killed her dtr. intentionally, but I don't see it as just an accident because that would not explain her failure to seek help immediately. I will never understand how a mother could do harm to her child... but Casey was not a normal mother. I guess I'm still on the fence about this.

bessie
08-28-2008, 07:39 AM
Intentional.

Intent does not mean that she planned ahead; just that the act she committed was intentional and that reasonable people would expect that death or serious bodily injury would result from such an act.

For example, an enraged person hits another person on the side of the head, the fist was made, swung and connected. This hitting was intentional. Now say that the
other person falls to the ground, splitting their head open on an object, and dies. There was no intention to kill, but reasonable people would agree that hitting someone that hard would likely result in serious injury or death. We do not look at the result intended, but rather the intentional act which resulted in the death.

Let's say someone gives a baby a Xanax so the baby would sleep, but the baby dies. The result intented was not to kill the baby, the intentional act was to give the baby a Xanax. Reasonable people would agree that giving a baby a Xanax would cause serious harm or death.

KC did not panic. She went to Tony's to party and have sex for the next month. She didn't miss a beat. When the car ran out of gas, she discarded it, called Tony to rescue her and never looked back. Same thing with Caylee. Discarded the baby, went to Tony's and never looked back. This is what psychos do - plain and simple.

We can not comprehend it because we are not psycho.

I totally agree. I've always suspected the cause of death was a Xanax overdose. After reading the docs, I'm even more convinced. Amy stated that Caylee would fall asleep on the sofa during parties and that she could sleep through anything. She slept in the bed with Casey and Ricardo, probably while they were having sex. Did she sleep through that, too? There are numerous references to Caylee sleeping. Yes, I know that 2 year-olds do sleep a lot. But, still...

Clint stated that Caylee never slept at Tony's and his apt, but Caylee was "pretty much shacked up" there during the entire month of June. Where was she sleeping while her mother was shacked up? My guess is the poor child was knocked out in the car. :mad: We know she was with Cindy on the 15th, but other than that, it doesn't seem that the gp's saw her much in the weeks prior. Cindy wasn't even sure of the date. If Caylee had been there all that time, it would've been clearer to her.

Tony stated that he went to the A's home twice with Casey while her parents were out. Where was Caylee then? Or was that after her "disappearance". Unfortunately, the detective didn't ask him for the dates in the recorded interview.

And then there's that awful Zanny the Nanny nickname that became a joke among her friends. I think Casey used that name as a reference to Xanax, and when she got in trouble and came up with the kidnapping story, she needed a real name for Zanny so used ZG.

Was the final dose an intentional or accidental one? I'm undecided, but judging by her other actions and behavior, it could very well have been intentional. Having Caylee around was becoming too inconvenient. She wanted to be with Tony, and apparently Tony wasn't too hip on having her there. So, what else could she do?

CiCi
08-28-2008, 09:28 AM
IMO, Casey killed her daughter intentionally.

Cindy's devotion to Caylee must have made Casey feel incompetent as a parent. Even though she had the freedom to do as she pleased, she had no control of her living situation and her daughter's life. Her mother was basically providing everything Caylee needed, which must have made her feel quite incapable and trapped. How could she not, she was unable to feed, clothe or house herself, nevermind her own child and I am sure her mother consistently reminded her of this.

I would imagine that Casey felt very much not in control of her own life, and she blamed her mother for this. In an effort to regain control of the situation, she decided to show her mother exactly how much control she did have, she took away the very thing her mother held most precious in the world, Caylee. I think her motive for killing her daughter was strictly to punish Cindy. She presents as a sociopath, even her mother admitted it, she cares only about herself and her needs, and no one else.

If you read both of their MS blogs, it is evident that there was major tension between Cindy and Casey, specifically about caring for Caylee.

BeanE
08-28-2008, 09:52 AM
Sometimes crazy freak accidents happen to the child of even the most responsible and loving parents, and the child is seriously hurt, or dead. Their reaction is to scream, cry, call 911, yell out to anyone within hearing to help, and even sometimes when presented with the fact that their child has died, will continue, or insist on medical personnel continuing, resuscitation efforts. Their grief and horror and pain is long lasting, and horrible to witness.

I don't think Caylee died as the result of an accident that did not involve gross negligence on Casey's part. My sole reason for thinking this is all the reports of her emotional state and her demeanor from the night of June 16th on. There was no 911 call, no reports of any requests for assistance, nothing. There's just absolutely nothing there to indicate a tragic accident.

When I think 'accident' in relation to this case, I'm definitely thinking 'gross negligence'. Gross negligence to the extent that Casey would know without a doubt, that other people would see the 'accident' as Casey's fault. (I don't think Casey feels anything is her own fault, and blames everyone else.)

At this point, I think there are equal chances that Caylee's death was the result of a 'gross negligence accident', child abuse committed in a rage (a rage at Cindy or life in general and Caylee happened to annoy her), and a planned murder.

My thoughts on planned murder didn't start until I read the 400 page documents. It was Casey talking about taking over her parents' house that actually started me thinking she could have planned Caylee's murder, as well as that of her parents.

My opinions only, of course.

CiCi
08-28-2008, 09:53 AM
In response to the person who posted about Casey not having a motive.....yes, if she were a normal person, that would make sense. However, she is not and I feel her motive was to punish her mother.

Her mother was the one who made her have Caylee. She never wanted her. She could of had an abortion, however, she didn't because her mother wouldn't allow it, which just shows how much control her mother had over her life.

Remember her statement on her MS, " what is given can be taken away". I interpret that to mean that she gave Cindy her daughter to raise, and then she took her away.

( bear with me, I am a lurker turned newbie, still trying to figure out how to quote, respond to comments, etc)

BeanE
08-28-2008, 09:58 AM
-snipped-

Cindy's devotion to Caylee must have made Casey feel incompetent as a parent.

Cindy's post on July 9 certainly supports that. It keeps coming back to my mind how she said that Casey disallowed contact with Cindy out of jealousy.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cindy had told Casey "we'll take care of all Caylee's financial needs, directly, but we're not giving you another penny". Maybe this included that Caylee would have to live with Cindy and George for this to happen, because they wouldn't give a penny to Casey for Caylee's care, knowing the money wouldn't be used for Caylee's needs.

Seems that Casey would see this as "you love Caylee more than you love me", and this would enrage her. So... Cindy's use of the word jealousy. Casey jealous of Caylee.

Fandy
08-28-2008, 10:06 AM
IMO, Casey killed her daughter intentionally.

Cindy's devotion to Caylee must have made Casey feel incompetent as a parent. Even though she had the freedom to do as she pleased, she had no control of her living situation and her daughter's life. (snip)
I would imagine that Casey felt very much not in control of her own life, and she blamed her mother for this. sociopathic tendencyIn an effort to regain control of the situation, she decided to show her mother exactly how much control she did have, she took away the very thing her mother held most precious in the world, Caylee. I think her motive for killing her daughter was strictly to punish Cindy. She presents as a sociopath, even her mother admitted it, she cares only about herself and her needs, and no one else.

If you read both of their MS blogs, it is evident that there was major tension between Cindy and Casey, specifically about caring for Caylee.

Casey was very much under George and Cindy's thumb, she was squirming to get out.....however, she lacks the maturity and drive to actually work at bringing herself out of her situation. It seems that Casey wanted instant gratification.

I thought it might be an accident too, until I read about 1/2 of the documents, then it struck me as she did it on purpose so she could get on with her fantasy life.....i think casey threw the baby in the Amscott dumpster like a piece of trash...and then felt "safe" as she stated with Tony as she stayed with him the weeks following, avoiding Cindy and the truth.

right now I am thinking her lawyer will try the insanity defense. I watched LP on Fox this morning, he was saying she is in her own world, i'll bet that is what will be palying out next, (she's not guilty, just crazy, so she can not got to jail, but a nice cushy rehab facility).

i haven't had time to read all of this thread so i apologize if i am re-hashing old theories....jmo

dejavu101
08-28-2008, 10:11 AM
I simply do not understand how this is accidental. First, the 911 "flurry" of calls that went unanswered, (as far as we know). If you had just found your child unresponsive, you would call 911, not your mother, if you cared about your child first and not yourself. I believe Casey called her mom, with the intent of telling her that there was some accident and What should she do??
That sets up a situation where a jury would doubt if this was intentional. Think about it.....then when mom did not answer her cell, she called dad, same thing. When Casey failed to reach anyone, it ruined her plan. Now she cannot call 911 because it was not an accident and she would have too much explaining to do to LE. Casey was counting on her mom or dad or whomever she got on her cell, to verify her "story" that she was too upset, too panicked, too young, in other words a "victim" as well. We know her mom or dad would have clung to Caseys' side and told LE it was an accident, since they back up everything Casey says. IMO Fate intervened when no one answered their cells, and Casey had to hide the body.

CiCi
08-28-2008, 10:19 AM
Seems that Casey would see this as "you love Caylee more than you love me", and this would enrage her. So... Cindy's use of the word jealousy. Casey jealous of Caylee.

Take this one step further, "and you can't CONTROL me any longer".

I agree, Casey was definitely jealous, and enraged. This was her way to escape from the control.

Maybe initially, her plan was to just remove Caylee out of her parents house to anger and punish them. Then she realized she really couldn't care for her, but refused to give in and have her mother say " i told you so".

Maybe the parents told her that if she left, than she is on her own and they will not help her. The flurry of phone calls from Casey to her parents might have been her trying to manipulate them into giving her money by threatening them they will never see Caylee again. It is possible she has done this before, however, this time the parents knew her MO and refused to answer the calls. This would have enraged her even further, leading her to take it out on little Caylee.

french75
08-28-2008, 10:49 AM
At first I thought maybe she panicked and tried to cover it up. I felt like I could see someone freaking out and thinking they could hide it, like when you hear about cases of cars hitting pedestrians and then the driver speeds off in a panic because they can't believe what just happened.

However, the fact that she was able to go on like nothing was wrong and not crack under the pressure makes me think she is diabolical and a rare case. Even people like Susan Smith cracked pretty quickly and in SS's case, at least half of that crying was for herself because she probably realized she wasn't going to get away with it.

I still can't decide if she planned it or if it was an impulsive action that she followed before thinking it through (sort of like those thoughts when you're driving and wonder what would happen if you just drove into oncoming traffic). But then again, if it wasn't thought out, I'm not sure she would be able to remain so cold throughout.

I have seen a lot of people say that Caylee "got in the way" of her partying lifestyle but I don't know about that - it seems like she was able to go out often, date/hook up with a lot of guys while she was around.

french75
08-28-2008, 11:00 AM
Calling 911 does seem like it would be the normal response but I have read other situations where someone called a family member or someone else instead. The person who found Heath Ledger unresponsive called Mary Kate Olsen first! What the heck was she supposed to do?

BeanE
08-28-2008, 11:03 AM
Agreed. Control would definitely be a big factor. 'give me money and support me, or you're not seeing Caylee'.

And the flurry of phone calls. God yes! 'This is your last chance or you're never seeing Caylee again'. No response from Cindy/George or maybe a flat 'No!' and that was all it took.

I can definitely see that. Casey was used to getting her way, and not having to take responsibility for herself, let alone for Caylee.

We're thinking the same way on the psychology in all this. Will be interesting when we get more info.



Take this one step further, "and you can't CONTROL me any longer".

I agree, Casey was definitely jealous, and enraged. This was her way to escape from the control.

Maybe initially, her plan was to just remove Caylee out of her parents house to anger and punish them. Then she realized she really couldn't care for her, but refused to give in and have her mother say " i told you so".

Maybe the parents told her that if she left, than she is on her own and they will not help her. The flurry of phone calls from Casey to her parents might have been her trying to manipulate them into giving her money by threatening them they will never see Caylee again. It is possible she has done this before, however, this time the parents knew her MO and refused to answer the calls. This would have enraged her even further, leading her to take it out on little Caylee.

Annbelle
08-28-2008, 12:35 PM
whether she is capable of being truthful has yet to be determined.
Why now? Who would know? Why would anyone believe her? The judge said it. "Ms. Anthony you and the thruth are strangers."
She has lied for so long and absolutely no emotion is shown. Her parents showed the same lack of emotion most of the time. Her mother was shown so many times with no emotion, the father as well.
Drained, exhausted, most definitely for the last 2 months.
I still think there is more going on.
People do react different, but there has been so little emotion. Seems there is more to this. Maybe the abuse excuse will be used.

.

DotsEyes
08-28-2008, 02:59 PM
KC has no incentive to cooperate with LE even now. She does not believe that anyone would convict her of anything and will walk into the death chamber thinking that it is all still a big joke. She doesn't care if Caylee gets a proper burial, she is gong to be in jail and wouldn't be visiting the grave even if she were free as a bird. She has no compassion for her parents, brother, friends, family, community and would never do anything to help anyone, such as allowing a funeral and burial of Caylee's body.

KC thinking of others before herself? It is never going to happen.

Life in prison versus the death penalty? She does not care either way. She is incapable of experiencing empathy or sympathy. She is a sociopath, a empty vessel that will never be filled, no matter how much booze, drugs, material things, men, sex she lives in the shell of a human body but there is nothing alive inside. Nothing worth saving. Only God can fix this one, so maybe we should just give her a ticket to heaven now. You may as well ask my desk to tell us where Caylee's body is located for all the good it will do trying to get KC to tell.

Remember: Everyone lies, everyone dies.

YellowDog
08-28-2008, 03:14 PM
After just looking at some pictures I hadn't seen before of Casey with Caylee, I have to think it was an accident. You can see the love in her eyes for that baby. I was really touched by them. What a tragedy!

Cagney
08-28-2008, 03:27 PM
I like the theory that the flurry of calls on the 16th were about control. Give me money or never see Caylee.
I don't think this was an accident. I keep picturing Casey enraged. If it was an accident, like an OD or something she could have made up a much better story than the nanny took her. She could have made up a story how when she picked her up from the nanny she was lethargic but still conscious and passed out and stopped breathing from there and calls the nanny and questions her and the nanny disappears from there.
I mean she could have come up with 123209 different excuses to cover an accident.

I think, that this was brutal and I think it was intentional.
I don't think she will ever talk because "all everyone cares about is getting Caylee back".

Anniegirl
08-28-2008, 03:34 PM
I notice that many of you that feel Casey killed Caylee think it was accidental or unintentional through carelessness.
Is that because she does not have a violent background? Is it because she is young mom and we can't imagine that she could do this to her child intentionally?

What is it that makes many of you say accidental vs intentional?
Why don't you think she just killed her like we have seen other young mothers do?

edited title and added some wording in the post.


HI beaner:blowkiss:

I think with Casey Anthony being the narcisstic (sp>?) she is she is cabable of cold blooded murder-- even if you lose a child through an accident --no way could you be 'all smiles and kicking up your heels 'for days after-- sadly, i think Casey is cold blooded~
The only unintentional direct way i think could be catergorized as an "accident ' from this woman is if she gave Caylee something make her sleep in car..etc while she partied and Caylee was overdosed and died. Otherwise, my guess is she died at bare hands of her mother !

It had to be something that by autopsy would show this was not an 'innocent' accident or she would have let Caylee be found by now .

Anniegirl
08-28-2008, 03:36 PM
After just looking at some pictures I hadn't seen before of Casey with Caylee, I have to think it was an accident. You can see the love in her eyes for that baby. I was really touched by them. What a tragedy!


IMO- photos can be deceiving---

I seen those pics too but Casey being so happy and carefree in those clubs show her true heart.

MarleneM
08-28-2008, 03:39 PM
Accidental or intentional.... who knows?

As a matter of fact, who cares anymore.....

Casey has INTENTIONALLY refused to lead LE to find Caylee... despite the pleading of her mother, her father or even her brother.

Casey makes a mockery of motherhood AND she spits in the face of law enforcement's tireless efforts to bring Caylee home.

Who knows whether she'll EVER grow up & take any personal responsibility for the total mess she has made her life & the countless people she has devastated? I doubt it. I think she's already convinced herself that she's a victim & maybe even feels more comfortable living in a controlled environment where she doesn't have to deal with REAL LIFE like a normal adult would.

What a wasted life. It's just too bad she had to destroy so many other innocent lives BEFORE she imploded.

Thanks for sparing me a lot of typing. These are my thoughts exactly. Many threads are being generated trying to make sense of what has happened in our process of accepting Caylee is dead, and in trying to find closure for these feelings. But right now, I'm in the "anger stage" I guess, because for every thread I read that ponders the "why's or how's" of Casey Anthony's actions over the last 3 months, my very first thought has been the same: I don't care why or how. All I care about this case anymore is finding Caylee's body so that she can be memorialized in a respectful manner.

SuzieQ said it best last night: Caylee's came into this world hidden by her family, and she's left hidden by her family. All I care about anymore is giving that baby the acknowledgment and respect she deserves as a human being that had as much purpose on this earth as any of us.

MomofBoys
08-28-2008, 03:47 PM
I can't fathom it being accidental. Casey has been given so much opportunity to break down and admit the true horror of the situation. You know that SOME member of her family has pleaded with her and said "just tell us if it was an accident..." Any human being with a trace of emotion would probably break under such a plea, and getting it off her chest would not only make her feel better, but end this nightmare for her family as well.

Instead, she toys with investigators, parties, lies to her family, acts like a prima donna, and was labeled as a sociopath by her own MOTHER. I mean, she exhibits all the symptoms. I suppose it's possible that a sociopath can coincidentally lose their toddler to an accident, but then again I'd think a sociopath wouldn't feel all that bad about it, either. If she IS a sociopath, she could come clean, escape punishment (at least to the extent that a murder charge would bring) and go on with her free lifestyle. A lifestyle made much easier by the loss of this child that she tried to give away in the past.

If Caylee was a hindrance, why the power struggle with Cindy? Just give her over to her mom. I think Casey's mental state was such that the Cindy/Caylee relationship made her truly angry, and that anger was taken out on the one person she could control. Now she's sitting back and is the center of attention. There's probably a part of her that is enjoying the pain Cindy is undoubtedly in. Because as much as I think Cindy is not all there, I think her denial is rooted deep in love for Caylee.

I just think someone who could go to the elaborate lengths Casey did to cover this whole thing up (scarily elaborate emails, etc) would come up with an efficient way to kill her child. There are plenty of sick people out there. Casey's one of the sickest. She's just benefitting from her weird family. Take the rest of the Anthony family out of this and you have just another murder, albeit an elaborately planned one. If it was just Casey and some boyfriend and this happened in some small town in Texas--would people be clinging this hard to the "it had to be an accident" raft?

KimF
08-28-2008, 04:20 PM
I haven't had to time to read all of these posts but has anyone brought to light the scratches on the trunk? Are they inside of the trunk? If so, then that baby girl was alive when she was in the trunk. My heart sinks deeper every time that I think about poor Caylee. Do you know how many people actually pray everyday of their life to have a child like little Caylee? And this scanky girl throws her away like a piece of trash! It wouldn't do for me to be alone with Casey.

thelmadawg
09-01-2008, 02:38 PM
We touched on this on another thread, but I think it's worth exploring. If this precious little child is dead, was it some bizarre accident, or premeditated?

Personally, I believe Casey is a classic sociopathic personality -- much like Scott Peterson -- and that when Caylee interferred in her life, she decided to eliminate the problem. It is noteworthy that while Caylee was sheltered by her grandparents she survived. When she becomes Casey's sole responsibility she dies (according to the evidence thus far).

If an accident, any normal human being would have called 911 whether Caylee was hurt, near death, or even perceived as being dead. It would be instinctual and immediate.

I would love to think more positively about Casey, but nothing about her leads me to do so.

Cagney
09-01-2008, 02:44 PM
Premeditated, all the way.
Thats why the need for the circus. If it was an accident she wouldn't need to stall in telling them where Caylee is. I am certain that she is stalling because she wants to wait for the body to decompose to the point that COD will be hard to determine. /JMO

princess
09-01-2008, 02:46 PM
Premeditated to spite her mother...

One can only hope Casey showed compassion and killed her with sedatives so she just went to sleep and never woke up..

) :

krimekat
09-01-2008, 02:48 PM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69354&highlight=accidental

THREAD CURRENTLY EXISTS for this topic -- see above link. Repetitive threads leads to crazy forums . . .

Tx Nonna
09-01-2008, 02:53 PM
Honestly I think "Accident" but it was a type of accident that could have still gotten Casey behind bars. Such as giving Caylee some type of drug for a boo boo or to make her sleep so Casey could party without worrying about her waking up for awhile. Problem is Caylee NEVER woke up. Then I could somewhat see the panic to try to cover it up. How would Casey explain drugs in Caylee's system? She couldn't, she knew she went to far this time so she had come up with something to point the finger elsewhere.

sweetmop
09-01-2008, 02:59 PM
Premeditated to spite her mother...

One can only hope Casey showed compassion and killed her with sedatives so she just went to sleep and never woke up..

) :

My same thoughts princess.
I think she and Cindy had a huge figt and she was pi**ed with Cindy, and thought, " I'll show her ". I think she purposedly killed that beautiful child!
just to get even with Cindy.
There was several years of hate and anger built up, and it appears she resented Caylee and the responsibility she placed on Casey. I think she had thought about " getting rid " of Caylee for a while, either by selling her, or murder. And on this particular day she was in a rage toward her mother and Caylee received the deadly outcome of it.

I know this is so sick, but this is what I think happened.:furious:

Tx Nonna
09-01-2008, 03:02 PM
HI beaner:blowkiss:

I think with Casey Anthony being the narcisstic (sp>?) she is she is cabable of cold blooded murder-- even if you lose a child through an accident --no way could you be 'all smiles and kicking up your heels 'for days after-- sadly, i think Casey is cold blooded~
The only unintentional direct way i think could be catergorized as an "accident ' from this woman is if she gave Caylee something make her sleep in car..etc while she partied and Caylee was overdosed and died. Otherwise, my guess is she died at bare hands of her mother !

It had to be something that by autopsy would show this was not an 'innocent' accident or she would have let Caylee be found by now .

Hi Annie...........This is my thoughts exactly!!!!

I think it makes more sense how Casey would feel the need to panic and try to hide Caylee's' death, because it was an accident by overdose and could have still gotten Casey behind bars. How would Casey explain drugs in Caylee's system? She couldn't!!! She knew she went too far this time, so she felt she had come up with something to point guilt elsewhere and portray her as the poor mother of a missing child. JMO

jbar
09-02-2008, 06:26 PM
To those of you that believe that Caylee is no longer alive, and assuming that Casey gets charged with her death....

Do you see any evidence of premeditation?

And/or

Do you see any evidence of this being an accident?

jbar
09-02-2008, 06:28 PM
In my opinion, I think we can almost rule out any "Death by accident" claims given the lies, and the club photos. Also, given her demeanor and attitude currently, and in the last few months.

This is not a woman who is loaded with guilt OR grieving a child that was taken too soon, unnecessarily, etc.



Premeditation - To start this discussion off, I would say that deleting over 200 pictures of Caylee, and Caylee together with Casey, from her Facebook account would indicate premeditation. As they said on NG last night, deleting the pictures is like deleting the child, the memory.

Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:29 PM
In my opinion, I think we can almost rule out any "Death by accident" claims given the lies, and the club photos. Also, given her demeanor and attitude currently, and in the last few months.

This is not a woman who is loaded with guilt OR grieving a child that was taken too soon, unnecessarily, etc.



Premeditation - To start this discussion off, I would say that deleting over 200 pictures of Caylee, and Caylee together with Casey, from her Facebook account would indicate premeditation. As they said on NG last night, deleting the pictures is like deleting the child, the memory.

Thanks for starting the thread. Do we know for certain when the photos were deleted?

Tracy1
09-02-2008, 06:30 PM
To those of you that believe that Caylee is no longer alive, and assuming the Casey gets charged with her death....

Do you see any evidence of premeditation?

And/or

Do you see any evidence of this being an accident?

This is not scientific but I believe it was premeditated, even if only for a moment. If Caylee died of an accident, she would have played it up and gotten as much attention and sympathy as she could..milked it for all its worth.

I also believe the hiding the body so well, and staying quiet about it for a month, along with trying to confuse the dates when Caylee went missing are all in a attempt to hide the body, and thus the cause of death, from family and police.

The other thing that makes me think it was planned was if it had been an accident , there would have been some sign of remorse..even tears or sadness....

A profiler said that moms who kill kids either do it by accident and fall into deep remorse of they do it because they dont want to be a mom anymore and then they go partying and acting like life is great!

Thats just my opinion.

jbar
09-02-2008, 06:30 PM
That was a question I had too... and I was hoping it was going to be brought up for this discussion :)

I will look back through the NG transcript.

RaineInMD
09-02-2008, 06:33 PM
To those of you that believe that Caylee is no longer alive, and assuming that Casey gets charged with her death....

Do you see any evidence of premeditation?

And/or

Do you see any evidence of this being an accident?


premeditation/fit of rage
1. no remorse/no emotion at all where caylee is concerned
2. hiding the body
3. lying to LE
4. deleting of pics
5. going out partying with no signs of grief

accident
1. none

jbar
09-02-2008, 06:37 PM
What about her statement to Amy on Facebook "Pretty soon it will be just us girls" re: moving in together.

Did that include Caylee?

She was planning on moving in with her friend, while supposedly following a "30 day script" from her kidnappers?

wallflower67
09-02-2008, 06:39 PM
I used to think it was an accident, due to neglect. I don't anymore, especially with the picture deletion. Similar to Melinda Duckett. I think she did it to spite her parents.

Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:42 PM
What about her statement to Amy on Facebook "Pretty soon it will be just us girls" re: moving in together.

Did that include Caylee?

She was planning on moving in with her friend, while supposedly following a "30 day script" from her kidnappers?

If I recall from Amy's statement, she thought it included Caylee. The moving in together was all a lie, Cindy was not giving Casey the house. I don't know how much weight can be given to something that was a fantasy. Did Amy ever say when Casey originally presented the idea of them moving into together?

I think Casey told people she would soon be getting the house so they wouldn't be reluctant to let her stay with them....you know, one of those "but it'll only be for a short time" things.

Vegas Bride
09-02-2008, 06:42 PM
If there had been an accident, such as an accidental drowning in the family pool, wouldn't there have been some type of scene? Neighbors heard yelling from the house when Casey was fighting with her mother, if she can be loud then, wouldn't she have made some kind of noise if she found her daughter unresponsive? The same for if she returned to the car and found Kaylee dead, who could so cold bloodedly just get behind the wheel and drive away?
Her behavior imo shows no remorse, she has filed things away in her mind and I believe that in her mind, she feels she did what she had to do. Casey is all about Casey, she got the new tattoo and more than likely believes that was enough to remember her daughter with. Her next thoughts were what outfit could she wear next time to the club.
Casey wanted a certain life style, Caylee did not fit into it, something needed to change and it wasn't going to be Casey becoming a responsible parent.

VB

Theonly1
09-02-2008, 06:44 PM
What about her statement to Amy on Facebook "Pretty soon it will be just us girls" re: moving in together.

Did that include Caylee?

She was planning on moving in with her friend, while supposedly following a "30 day script" from her kidnappers?

In my opinion, the only 30-day script Ms. Casey had was someone else's 'script of Xanax.

Just saying...there are tiny kernels of truth in her lies.

Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:46 PM
If there had been an accident, such as an accidental drowning in the family pool, wouldn't there have been some type of scene? Neighbors heard yelling from the house when Casey was fighting with her mother, if she can be loud then, wouldn't she have made some kind of noise if she found her daughter unresponsive? The same for if she returned to the car and found Kaylee dead, who could so cold bloodedly just get behind the wheel and drive away?
Her behavior imo shows no remorse, she has filed things away in her mind and I believe that in her mind, she feels she did what she had to do. Casey is all about Casey, she got the new tattoo and more than likely believes that was enough to remember her daughter with. Her next thoughts were what outfit could she wear next time to the club.
Casey wanted a certain life style, Caylee did not fit into it, something needed to change and it wasn't going to be Casey becoming a responsible parent.

VB

I also don't believe it was an accident, but I don't think lack of remorse will prove premediation in a court of law. We need actions taken by Casey prior to Caylee's disappearance showing that she expected Caylee to disappear or planned to murder her. As someone else said, it doesn't have to be days before, it can be minutes.

Theonly1
09-02-2008, 06:49 PM
If there had been an accident, such as an accidental drowning in the family pool, wouldn't there have been some type of scene? Neighbors heard yelling from the house when Casey was fighting with her mother, if she can be loud then, wouldn't she have made some kind of noise if she found her daughter unresponsive? The same for if she returned to the car and found Kaylee dead, who could so cold bloodedly just get behind the wheel and drive away?
Her behavior imo shows no remorse, she has filed things away in her mind and I believe that in her mind, she feels she did what she had to do. Casey is all about Casey, she got the new tattoo and more than likely believes that was enough to remember her daughter with. Her next thoughts were what outfit could she wear next time to the club.
Casey wanted a certain life style, Caylee did not fit into it, something needed to change and it wasn't going to be Casey becoming a responsible parent.

VB

Wasn't the accidental drowning theory supported by the dogs positively reacting to the sandbox and the playhouse? [And Cindy told us all about the mysterious ladder...blah blah blah] BUT if Caylee's toys were in the trunk of the death car, and Cindy put them BACK in the sandbox and playhouse (like it was reported) then OF COURSE the dogs would pick up the decomp that lingered on the toys! [I'll have to go looking for the source on this one but it is somewhere.] It kind of makes the accidental drowning scenario seem reaching.

Theonly1
09-02-2008, 06:50 PM
I also don't believe it was an accident, but I don't think lack of remorse will prove premediation in a court of law. We need actions taken by Casey prior to Caylee's disappearance showing that she expected Caylee to disappear or planned to murder her. As someone else said, it doesn't have to be days before, it can be minutes.

Premeditation can happen "in the twinkling of an eye".

Lili
09-02-2008, 06:50 PM
IMO Casey didn't want to be a mom. She didn't want to be a responsible adult. She was probably a mom when it was convenient, when Caylee did cute things, etc. She didn't want her mother to become Caylee's mom either. It was said (I believe) that Cindy / George were going to go for custody of Caylee. Casey would have none of that. IMO she got rid of Caylee to spite her mother. Like others have said...shades of S. Peterson all over again. :mad:

impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 06:51 PM
I also don't believe it was an accident, but I don't think lack of remorse will prove premediation in a court of law. We need actions taken by Casey prior to Caylee's disappearance showing that she expected Caylee to disappear or planned to murder her. As someone else said, it doesn't have to be days before, it can be minutes.

Elaborate effort to hide the crime can be used to show intent. This is not a mother who is upset her child is gone, that can be used to show that she wanted her gone, or never wanted her to begin with.

Vegas Bride
09-02-2008, 06:54 PM
I also don't believe it was an accident, but I don't think lack of remorse will prove premediation in a court of law. We need actions taken by Casey prior to Caylee's disappearance showing that she expected Caylee to disappear or planned to murder her. As someone else said, it doesn't have to be days before, it can be minutes.

I agree, one thing I've wondered about concerns her tattoo, did she ever go there previously to talk to them about it or did she just go in the 1 day and get it?

Of course she has had the make believe nanny for a long time so we could say that her nanny story was premeditated.

VB

Cagney
09-02-2008, 06:55 PM
premeditation/fit of rage
1. no remorse/no emotion at all where caylee is concerned
2. hiding the body
3. lying to LE
4. deleting of pics
5. going out partying with no signs of grief

accident
1. none


This. Plus the myspace messages. The deleting of pics. The bed hopping. The poem. the list goes on and on.

jbar
09-02-2008, 06:56 PM
Legal definition of premeditation

PREMEDITATION - With planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation regarding an act depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to act, for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.
A design formed to commit a crime or to do some other thing before it is done.
Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistance which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation.
http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

beaglebrd
09-02-2008, 06:56 PM
In my opinion, the only 30-day script Ms. Casey had was someone else's 'script of Xanax.

Just saying...there are tiny kernels of truth in her lies.

The use of Xanax, and the giving of it to Caylee, is tossed around as a fact. Do we know that she used Xanax? Had a script for it?

IF she had Xanax, I doubt she gave it to Caylee...she wouldn't want to share that. I'm not saying she wouldn't give her something to sleep, I just think it would not be something she'd want to party with.

coltsgal
09-02-2008, 06:57 PM
IMO Casey didn't want to be a mom. She didn't want to be a responsible adult. She was probably a mom when it was convenient, when Caylee did cute things, etc. She didn't want her mother to become Caylee's mom either. It was said (I believe) that Cindy / George were going to go for custody of Caylee. Casey would have none of that. IMO she got rid of Caylee to spite her mother. Like others have said...shades of S. Peterson all over again. :mad:

I hope that some day Casey is consumed with this guilt. One day she will realize the importance of what she did.

Hopefully one day.

She needs to feel the guilt of never seeing her daughter get on the bus for her first day of school, the guilt about not hearing about her daughter's first kiss or first dance, her daughter's wedding day, her daughter having kids, etc...

I live for those moments. Every day I get off work, and I cannot drive to my sitter's fast enough to pick up my kids and ask them how their day was and what they did in school.

Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:57 PM
I agree, one thing I've wondered about concerns her tattoo, did she ever go there previously to talk to them about it or did she just go in the 1 day and get it?

Of course she has had the make believe nanny for a long time so we could say that her nanny story was premeditated.

VB
But was the nanny story premediated to cover for the murder, or was it something Casey used to explain to her parents where she was leaving Caylee on the days they weren't available to watch her? I'm not sure anyone really heard of Zanny the Nanny prior to Caylee's disappearance.

Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 06:58 PM
Legal definition of premeditation

PREMEDITATION - With planning or deliberation. The amount of time needed for premeditation regarding an act depends on the person and the circumstances. It must be long enough, after forming the intent to act, for the person to have been fully conscious of the intent and to have considered the act.
A design formed to commit a crime or to do some other thing before it is done.
Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistance which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation.
http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

Excellent. Thanks.

impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 06:58 PM
If JB is going with the kidnapping, gave her to a friend option.... the options to the jury are either

a. tons of forensics showing she is dead, in Casey's car, plus behavior afterwards= she intended to kill her child and cover up the crime

or

b. She gave her child to someone and for coming up on three months now hasn't said who, where or why.

The accident defense would only come into play if Casey admits to accidently killing her, why wait until the partial immunity deal is gone to do that?

mountaintime
09-02-2008, 07:04 PM
I continue be be disturbed by the idea that Casey told her friends she was getting the house.
It just suggests to me that perhaps she had further plans...
Or am I just too supicious..?

Jolynna
09-02-2008, 07:09 PM
If JB is going with the kidnapping, gave her to a friend option.... the options to the jury are either

a. tons of forensics showing she is dead, in Casey's car, plus behavior afterwards= she intended to kill her child and cover up the crime

or

b. She gave her child to someone and for coming up on three months now hasn't said who, where or why.

The accident defense would only come into play if Casey admits to accidently killing her, why wait until the partial immunity deal is gone to do that?

You are right.

If it was an accident, Casey would have taken the immunity deal.

I have no doubt LE has evidence absolutely proving Caylee's decomposing body was in Casey's trunk.

IMO

Jolynna
09-02-2008, 07:14 PM
I continue be be disturbed by the idea that Casey told her friends she was getting the house.
It just suggests to me that perhaps she had further plans...
Or am I just too supicious..?

No.

Caylee who offered unconditional love wasn't safe.

nancy botwin
09-02-2008, 07:14 PM
Hi-- this is my first post. I've been almost obsessed with this tragic case and it is my opinion that Caylee Anthony is in fact deceased and Casey Anthony should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I also cringe each time people describe Casey as "not in her right mind" because IMO she is definitely NOT legally insane and should be held fully accountable.

Because her victim was a child, Casey can be charged with first degree murder even without a showing of premeditation.

There are two ways to establish first degree murder under Florida law-- and only one requires a showing of premeditation.
Under the Felony Murder Rule, premeditation does not need to be established to prove first degree murder.

In Florida, first degree felony murder is the unlawful killing of a human
being when committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate,
any of the following offenses:
a. Drug trafficking offenses prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being
(782.04(1)(a)2., F. S)


827.03 (2) "Aggravated child abuse" occurs when a person:
(a) Commits aggravated battery on a child;

(b) Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages a child; or

(c) Knowingly or willfully abuses a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

These statutes would apply under several different prosecutorial theories of the case-- most clearly if the prosecution argues Casey put a living Caylee in the trunk of her car where she died of suffocation; and also under theories which could posit that Casey drugged Caylee or somehow "snapped" and caused her death before placing a deceased Caylee in the trunk of the car.

I think discussions of premeditation are still important because one of the most horrifying aspects of this case is Casey's state of mind-- but I do think Casey can be punished to the fullest extent of the law without any substantive showing of premeditation.

Chilly Willy
09-02-2008, 07:19 PM
...snipped for space.....

I think discussions of premeditation are still important because one of the most horrifying aspects of this case is Casey's state of mind-- but I do think Casey can be punished to the fullest extent of the law without any substantive showing of premeditation.

Boy, you sure came in with a bang! Excellent info. This puts a whole new light on things.

Theonly1
09-02-2008, 07:39 PM
The use of Xanax, and the giving of it to Caylee, is tossed around as a fact. Do we know that she used Xanax? Had a script for it?

IF she had Xanax, I doubt she gave it to Caylee...she wouldn't want to share that. I'm not saying she wouldn't give her something to sleep, I just think it would not be something she'd want to party with.

If you read my post again in starts with the words "in my opinion". That is hardly tossing something around as fact. Respectfully.

ski3166
09-02-2008, 07:44 PM
would it be possible for her to get the death penalty?

TimeWillTell
09-02-2008, 07:50 PM
I still haven't completely made up my mind yet but I do think whether it was an accident or not, as long as Casey knows that someone (most of all her mother) is believing her lies she will keep lying! Cindy needs to first of all wake up and smell the truth and then confront Casey. But as long as Cindy believes her she will never confess!

JMHO

strach304
09-02-2008, 07:56 PM
I also don't believe it was an accident, but I don't think lack of remorse will prove premediation in a court of law. We need actions taken by Casey prior to Caylee's disappearance showing that she expected Caylee to disappear or planned to murder her. As someone else said, it doesn't have to be days before, it can be minutes.

What charge would apply if she did drug Caylee and put her in the trunk while she partied and stayed with her bf, etc? I can no longer believe that it was some kind of accident where she panicked and covered up. Whatever it was I do believe was covered up because she would still be charged with murder if something like the example above applies.

txsvicki
09-02-2008, 07:57 PM
Just a theory, an opionion on what if:

Premeditation:

Family argument the day before according to neighbor and Rick
Previous theft from grandparent in nursing home
Talk of moving according to Amy and Cindy
No real job
Talk of what life would be without a child according to friends
Being called a sociopath by Cindy according to R.P.
Being caught in ten years of lies three weeks before disappearance according to Pasley

Accident:

No reason for one, because friends say Casey watched Caylee pretty well
The ladder was up on the pool the 17th, not the 16th

impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 08:00 PM
What charge would apply if she did drug Caylee and put her in the trunk while she partied and stayed with her bf, etc? I can no longer believe that it was some kind of accident where she panicked and covered up. Whatever it was I do believe was covered up because she would still be charged with murder if something like the example above applies.


Negligent homicide at a minimum. Willful choice to drug her and put her in the trunk, reasonable expectation that the outcome of that choice could result in death.

beaglebrd
09-02-2008, 08:00 PM
If you read my post again in starts with the words "in my opinion". That is hardly tossing something around as fact. Respectfully.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean you at all. A lot of posts talk about Xanax and I am wondering if we know that for a fact...as in was there any evidence that she had a script or ever talked about it.

strach304
09-02-2008, 08:04 PM
Thank you so much for the info Nancy. I feel better knowing that. I just hope LE can provide the evidence needed for full prosecution.

french75
09-02-2008, 08:18 PM
I don't want to think premeditation but the going out and partying and acting completely normal part bothers me.

What about a freak accident like she slapped/pushed her with too much force, then she fell and cracked her head? Actually that made me think about something else - there hasn't been any blood or anything other than the "stain" in the trunk. For those who think is was premeditated/to spite Cindy and George, how do you think she did it?

impatientredhead
09-02-2008, 08:19 PM
I don't want to think premeditation but the going out and partying and acting completely normal part bothers me.

What about a freak accident like she slapped/pushed her with too much force, then she fell and cracked her head? Actually that made me think about something else - there hasn't been any blood or anything other than the "stain" in the trunk. For those who think is was premeditated/to spite Cindy and George, how do you think she did it?

Suffocated.

nancy botwin
09-02-2008, 08:26 PM
Boy, you sure came in with a bang! Excellent info. This puts a whole new light on things.


Thanks! I'm an attorney who has never practiced and Casey Anthony makes me wish I was a prosecutor...


would it be possible for her to get the death penalty?

Yes, it's possible if she's convicted of first degree murder. If convicted, she can either be sentenced by a jury or a judge. The sentencing body will weigh the aggravating and mitigating factors of the crime to determine if it warrants a life or death sentence. (Key aggravating factors would likely be that Caylee, the victim, was a very young child; Casey Anthony was the victim's mother; Casey Anthony shows no remorse; and Casey Anthony systematically deceived LE during the investigation, etc. )


... I just hope LE can provide the evidence needed for full prosecution.

Me too! For some reason, I really believe LE has privately amassed some strong evidence. IMO the publicly available evidence mounts a pretty compelling circumstantial case already.

Deputy Andy
09-02-2008, 08:37 PM
Lots of intelligent thoughts about what happened here. I've followed this case fairly closely since Day One, and I've had so many thoughts about it.

I think LE is doing a magnificent job. These are some of the smartest police and spokespeople I have ever seen on the news. I am weary of hearing and reading how the focus is not on Caylee and should be – it is on Caylee and always has been. I totally agree with the post SeriouslySearching made earlier today. We have to know these people to understand what LE is up against. And mostly, the only way to find out what really happened is through these people – they are the key to finding Caylee.

I don't think she's alive. And this makes me extremely sad.

I think what's fascinating for me is that, try as I might, I cannot determine what Casey might have done. I cannot determine this woman's intelligence level or how her mind works. She really doesn't seem too smart to me. It would not be smart of her to put the body in the dumpster next to where she abandoned her car, for instance – but it's something she may have done, especially if she planned on running, say, to California. I have no idea. But then again, I have too many ideas.

I also don't believe this was an accident. I base this on the family relationships and the argument on Father's Day, and especially on her decision to leave the home with Caylee, among other factors such as the lifestyle she seemed to want to lead.

O.K., I'm just rambling.

nancy botwin
09-02-2008, 09:22 PM
...

I think what's fascinating for me is that, try as I might, I cannot determine what Casey might have done. I cannot determine this woman's intelligence level or how her mind works...

good post-- I agree with your thoughts re LE efforts!

And I'm also really fascinated by Casey Anthony's state of mind (though I hate to say it.) IMO she's probably of average, or even above-average intelligence. I think, however, that Casey thinks she's much smarter than she actually is and-- most importantly-- that she's way smarter than everyone else. She seems to have almost zero personal insight or empathy and exhibits many other hallmark Cluster B (anti-social, narcissistic, borderline) characteristics. As a result, we see a relatively intelligent person behaving in really stupid ways-- i.e., telling ridiculous and inconsistent lies and refusing to back down when confronted with the truth; not even trying to report Caylee missing until Cindy Anthony hunts her down and calls 911, etc.)

Many people who aren't convinced of Casey's guilt have pointed to photographs of mother and daughter as evidence Casey had a strong maternal bond with her daughter. This photo jumped out at me when I first began following the case-- I think it really illustrates the psychological essence of Casey Anthony:
http://i38.tinypic.com/1zq4z7q.jpg
(I used Graphics Converter to generate the trajectory of Casey's gaze. She's holding this adorable child in a bunny costume and she's not looking at the adorable child at all. She's looking at herself.)

coltsgal
09-02-2008, 09:57 PM
I agree casey is selfish, but that's just getting nit picky.

They are both wearing the bunny ears, she probably wanted to see what she looked like.

My kids and I will do funny stuff in the mirror all the time, and I dont constantly look to see what they're doing.

nancy botwin
09-02-2008, 10:15 PM
I agree casey is selfish, but that's just getting nit picky...


I see what you're saying. I was unclear, I think. I just see the picture as a symbolic or graphic representation of how I see Casey's personality/psych profile, that's all.

Lili
09-02-2008, 10:41 PM
I don't want to think premeditation but the going out and partying and acting completely normal part bothers me.

What about a freak accident like she slapped/pushed her with too much force, then she fell and cracked her head? Actually that made me think about something else - there hasn't been any blood or anything other than the "stain" in the trunk. For those who think is was premeditated/to spite Cindy and George, how do you think she did it?

One of my thoughts is that Casey couldn't find a babysitter and was too stubborn to ask her parents. I think Casey was trying to prove to her parents that she didn't need them running her life, there obviously was some friction there. Perhaps she wanted to go party so she waited until Caylee was asleep and put her in the trunk (sleeping) while she partied planning to check on her occasionally. Maybe she forgot about her and Caylee suffocated. Summer nights can be very warm too, and heat up the interior of the trunk. Then she hid the evidence and abandoned the car and continues the lies to cover up her lack of conscience. My opinion of course.

LinasK
09-02-2008, 11:10 PM
IMO Casey didn't want to be a mom. She didn't want to be a responsible adult. She was probably a mom when it was convenient, when Caylee did cute things, etc. She didn't want her mother to become Caylee's mom either. It was said (I believe) that Cindy / George were going to go for custody of Caylee. Casey would have none of that. IMO she got rid of Caylee to spite her mother. Like others have said...shades of S. Peterson all over again. :mad:

I agree. The posters who have said Casey loved Caylee because of all the cute photos-I disagree. They were photo ops for her with her cute "doll", convienient when she wanted to "put her back on the shelf" and not be a mom!

coltsgal
09-02-2008, 11:16 PM
I see what you're saying. I was unclear, I think. I just see the picture as a symbolic or graphic representation of how I see Casey's personality/psych profile, that's all.

I understand, and apologize for being snippy.

ShinaLite
09-02-2008, 11:29 PM
I go back and forth whether this was premeditated or accidental..

Last night I let my imagine run away a bit when I was re-reading the 400 page report...

Amy states that Casey told her that she would be getting the gp's house soon. That the grandparents were having some kind of issues and was about to sign the house over to her...
This is the crazy wild imagination part : what if Casey not only planned to take Caylee's life but also the gp's lives?

Make up a story of how they all moved away and took Caylee with them...Leaving her completely free from all things she felt tied down with..
Take over the house and let any of her friends move in...

Ok that's way out there but with this case and all it's twists and turns ...who knows...

Maybe she just fed Amy that line of BS because she is just a habitual liar and wanted to somehow keep Amy at her beck and call and trust her...

Back to reality...if it was an accident, there was something Casey was doing that lended the accident to happen...something that made her feel "at fault" causing her to cover the whole thing...

rangdang
09-02-2008, 11:38 PM
Many people who aren't convinced of Casey's guilt have pointed to photographs of mother and daughter as evidence Casey had a strong maternal bond with her daughter. This photo jumped out at me when I first began following the case-- I think it really illustrates the psychological essence of Casey Anthony:
http://i38.tinypic.com/1zq4z7q.jpg
(I used Graphics Converter to generate the trajectory of Casey's gaze. She's holding this adorable child in a bunny costume and she's not looking at the adorable child at all. She's looking at herself.)[/QUOTE]

Yikes, I actually think it's very telling. Interesting stuff...

coltsgal
09-02-2008, 11:39 PM
We've all let our imaginations run crazy, and all of us (myself included) have come up with some pretty crazy stuff. Which, who knows, any one of our theories could turn out to be true!

Personally, I'm chalking up the whole "house" thing to Casey being a liar and trying to impress people. Same with the 15 grand in the bank that she told Tony she had.

I had a friend that lied all the time to make people like her. It seemed that the more extravagant stuff she lied about, apparently she thought it impressed people and made them like her more.

Casey is starving for attention, any way she can get it. IMO, she tells people what they want to hear to make them like her more.

Truthwillsetufree
09-03-2008, 12:23 AM
Hi-- this is my first post. I've been almost obsessed with this tragic case and it is my opinion that Caylee Anthony is in fact deceased and Casey Anthony should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I also cringe each time people describe Casey as "not in her right mind" because IMO she is definitely NOT legally insane and should be held fully accountable.

Because her victim was a child, Casey can be charged with first degree murder even without a showing of premeditation.

There are two ways to establish first degree murder under Florida law-- and only one requires a showing of premeditation.
Under the Felony Murder Rule, premeditation does not need to be established to prove first degree murder.

In Florida, first degree felony murder is the unlawful killing of a human
being when committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate,
any of the following offenses:
a. Drug trafficking offenses prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
b. Arson,
c. Sexual battery,
d. Robbery,
e. Burglary,
f. Kidnapping,
g. Escape,
h. Aggravated child abuse,
i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
j. Aircraft piracy,
k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
l. Carjacking,
m. Home-invasion robbery,
n. Aggravated stalking,
o. Murder of another human being
(782.04(1)(a)2., F. S)


827.03 (2) "Aggravated child abuse" occurs when a person:
(a) Commits aggravated battery on a child;

(b) Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages a child; or

(c) Knowingly or willfully abuses a child and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the child.

These statutes would apply under several different prosecutorial theories of the case-- most clearly if the prosecution argues Casey put a living Caylee in the trunk of her car where she died of suffocation; and also under theories which could posit that Casey drugged Caylee or somehow "snapped" and caused her death before placing a deceased Caylee in the trunk of the car.

I think discussions of premeditation are still important because one of the most horrifying aspects of this case is Casey's state of mind-- but I do think Casey can be punished to the fullest extent of the law without any substantive showing of premeditation.

Welcome...I think. That 1st post of yours sure makes me look really dumb.:crazy:

EastSideOfSaddness
09-03-2008, 12:31 AM
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned however, if there are any kind of drugs involved the hair that was found in the trunk could be tested for it, right? I'm just saying this because I had to give a hair sample as a drug test for my job.

Truthwillsetufree
09-03-2008, 12:33 AM
Lots of intelligent thoughts about what happened here. I've followed this case fairly closely since Day One, and I've had so many thoughts about it.

I think LE is doing a magnificent job. These are some of the smartest police and spokespeople I have ever seen on the news. I am weary of hearing and reading how the focus is not on Caylee and should be it is on Caylee and always has been. I totally agree with the post SeriouslySearching made earlier today. We have to know these people to understand what LE is up against. And mostly, the only way to find out what really happened is through these people they are the key to finding Caylee.

I don't think she's alive. And this makes me extremely sad.

I think what's fascinating for me is that, try as I might, I cannot determine what Casey might have done. I cannot determine this woman's intelligence level or how her mind works. She really doesn't seem too smart to me. It would not be smart of her to put the body in the dumpster next to where she abandoned her car, for instance but it's something she may have done, especially if she planned on running, say, to California. I have no idea. But then again, I have too many ideas.

I also don't believe this was an accident. I base this on the family relationships and the argument on Father's Day, and especially on her decision to leave the home with Caylee, among other factors such as the lifestyle she seemed to want to lead.

O.K., I'm just rambling.

I agree with you. I just can't wrap my mind around the premeditated part. The "doing it on purpose". I think it is because I love my kids and I just can't put myself in that place, eventhough I know Mothers do in fact kill their children. I keep going back to some form of negligence. I do see others points of view.

LinasK
09-03-2008, 12:33 AM
What charge would apply if she did drug Caylee and put her in the trunk while she partied and stayed with her bf, etc? I can no longer believe that it was some kind of accident where she panicked and covered up. Whatever it was I do believe was covered up because she would still be charged with murder if something like the example above applies.

Manslaughter? Negligent homicide?

LinasK
09-03-2008, 12:34 AM
I don't want to think premeditation but the going out and partying and acting completely normal part bothers me.

What about a freak accident like she slapped/pushed her with too much force, then she fell and cracked her head?

That's one I'm pretty sure I can answer. That falls under manslaughter.

Thinking_Out_Loud
09-03-2008, 12:40 AM
I continue be be disturbed by the idea that Casey told her friends she was getting the house.
It just suggests to me that perhaps she had further plans...
Or am I just too supicious..?


I know, right? My initial reaction was "was she planning on killing them too?" That might be too suspicious though...It was most likely another lie. Maybe she was hoping that Amy would give her some big deposit for moving in, then she would skip state with her money? Who knows? I would say that it is impossible to figure out this crazy girl.

Still_Snarky
09-03-2008, 12:43 AM
Premeditation - To start this discussion off, I would say that deleting over 200 pictures of Caylee, and Caylee together with Casey, from her Facebook account would indicate premeditation. As they said on NG last night, deleting the pictures is like deleting the child, the memory.

somehow i missed this and in a way, as a parent, this makes me more sick than anything i've read about the case so far... *blech* :(

ziojane40
09-03-2008, 12:48 AM
It is late... and I am thinking about some very basic things...
Someone other then Casey must know what happened to this child.
What I keep thinking about is how heavy "dead weight" is, and Casey is a tiny woman.
I have a 3 year old son. He is 34 pounds, and I am a bigger woman. If I carry him to his bed when he falls asleep, he is very heavy. If she did move Caylee...it would not have been graceful...that is why I don't think she is out in the woods somewhere, too far away to carry her...unless she had help.
Any thoughts...

Ladytazz
09-03-2008, 01:00 AM
In my opinion, I think we can almost rule out any "Death by accident" claims given the lies, and the club photos. Also, given her demeanor and attitude currently, and in the last few months.

This is not a woman who is loaded with guilt OR grieving a child that was taken too soon, unnecessarily, etc.



Premeditation - To start this discussion off, I would say that deleting over 200 pictures of Caylee, and Caylee together with Casey, from her Facebook account would indicate premeditation. As they said on NG last night, deleting the pictures is like deleting the child, the memory.

As I recall, the pictures were deleted July 15th before Casey was arrested, when they were notifying people of her disappearance.

Short_Stuff
09-03-2008, 02:02 AM
Premeditation means she planned it, I think that's out.
I believe all along she left Caylee in that hot car while she partied, that Casey and Caylee were living IN the car. Where else could they have been? No motel records we know of, they weren't at Tonys all the time, not at home. I am convinced the baby suffocated in that car.
I dont know what you call leaving your baby in a car? Is that an accident?
To me its murder..period.

CaliKid
09-03-2008, 02:47 AM
We've all let our imaginations run crazy, and all of us (myself included) have come up with some pretty crazy stuff. Which, who knows, any one of our theories could turn out to be true!

Personally, I'm chalking up the whole "house" thing to Casey being a liar and trying to impress people. Same with the 15 grand in the bank that she told Tony she had.

I had a friend that lied all the time to make people like her. It seemed that the more extravagant stuff she lied about, apparently she thought it impressed people and made them like her more.

Casey is starving for attention, any way she can get it. IMO, she tells people what they want to hear to make them like her more.

Interesting theory about Casey. I wonder if she was jealous of Caylee.

My grandson is 21 months old, and his mom (my daughter) sometimes makes the half-serious joke that she might as well be invisible because of all the attention he gets in comparison to her.

I can see Casey being very resentful of feeling like she was forced to raise a child she didn't want and not getting the freedom she craved, being treated like a child herself by George and Cindy and them doting on Caylee. She was probably very angry and jealous.

jeepgirlva
09-03-2008, 07:52 AM
Premeditation means she planned it, I think that's out.
I believe all along she left Caylee in that hot car while she partied, that Casey and Caylee were living IN the car. Where else could they have been? No motel records we know of, they weren't at Tonys all the time, not at home. I am convinced the baby suffocated in that car.
I dont know what you call leaving your baby in a car? Is that an accident?
To me its murder..period.
I think she drugged to make her sleep and she either overdosed her or she suffocated in the car...I think she put the body into something possibly a suitcase and put her in the water I think it was an accident and she hid the body afraid to tell her parents

Stacy O
09-03-2008, 08:24 AM
I find it hard to believe that this was an accidental death. I base it on the a situtation in my family regarding my 2 year old brother. He passed away when he was 2 accidentally and horribly. It was back in the day when all lighters were filled with butane. There was no such thing as a disposable lighters. My Aunt was babysitting and put the butane in a paper cup to pour into her lighter. She left the cup on the counter and forgot about it. My mother came in and my brother was asking for a drink. She thought it was water in the cup and handed it to him. He died instantly from inhaling the fumes. My mother called police/rescue immediately. She did not try and hide it. She didn't dispose of him/drive with him in her trunk, etc. I realize Casey is wrapped different and has a different dynamic than most, but, I do feel this was no accident. There is no reason to hide an accident. To me that is insane. BTW, my mother was 22 or 23 years old at the time. It makes me sick to think that if it was an accident, she would create all this insanity. I find it hard to swallow.

Stacy O
09-03-2008, 08:30 AM
In my opinion, I think we can almost rule out any "Death by accident" claims given the lies, and the club photos. Also, given her demeanor and attitude currently, and in the last few months.

This is not a woman who is loaded with guilt OR grieving a child that was taken too soon, unnecessarily, etc.



Premeditation - To start this discussion off, I would say that deleting over 200 pictures of Caylee, and Caylee together with Casey, from her Facebook account would indicate premeditation. As they said on NG last night, deleting the pictures is like deleting the child, the memory.


If I were grieving........I would have added more photos to my account, not delete. This is very telling. IMO:liar::puke:

Stacy O
09-03-2008, 08:41 AM
IMO Casey didn't want to be a mom. She didn't want to be a responsible adult. She was probably a mom when it was convenient, when Caylee did cute things, etc. She didn't want her mother to become Caylee's mom either. It was said (I believe) that Cindy / George were going to go for custody of Caylee. Casey would have none of that. IMO she got rid of Caylee to spite her mother. Like others have said...shades of S. Peterson all over again. :mad:

Kind of like a guy/girl toting a really cute puppy for attention. I am sick to my stomach over this scenario!:liar: Casey is all smoke and mirrors!:hypno:

Stacy O
09-03-2008, 08:47 AM
I agree, one thing I've wondered about concerns her tattoo, did she ever go there previously to talk to them about it or did she just go in the 1 day and get it?

Of course she has had the make believe nanny for a long time so we could say that her nanny story was premeditated.

VB

I did read in one of her facebook/myspace conversations with a guy/boyfriend she was communicating with she was thinking about a tatoo. It was in the area of late 2006 IIRC. I know at the time of the postings she had one tatoo. She may have more than 3 or 4 or 5 now. Not sure.

It would be interesting to find out if she was thinking about one more recently, ie a month or 2 before she got it.

french75
09-03-2008, 08:48 AM
That's one I'm pretty sure I can answer. That falls under manslaughter.

I actually meant what do you all think about something like that as a possibility for what happened. :)

Stacy O
09-03-2008, 08:56 AM
good post-- I agree with your thoughts re LE efforts!

And I'm also really fascinated by Casey Anthony's state of mind (though I hate to say it.) IMO she's probably of average, or even above-average intelligence. I think, however, that Casey thinks she's much smarter than she actually is and-- most importantly-- that she's way smarter than everyone else. She seems to have almost zero personal insight or empathy and exhibits many other hallmark Cluster B (anti-social, narcissistic, borderline) characteristics. As a result, we see a relatively intelligent person behaving in really stupid ways-- i.e., telling ridiculous and inconsistent lies and refusing to back down when confronted with the truth; not even trying to report Caylee missing until Cindy Anthony hunts her down and calls 911, etc.)

Many people who aren't convinced of Casey's guilt have pointed to photographs of mother and daughter as evidence Casey had a strong maternal bond with her daughter. This photo jumped out at me when I first began following the case-- I think it really illustrates the psychological essence of Casey Anthony:

(I used Graphics Converter to generate the trajectory of Casey's gaze. She's holding this adorable child in a bunny costume and she's not looking at the adorable child at all. She's looking at herself.)

Powerful indeed!

Gin
09-03-2008, 08:59 AM
good post-- I agree with your thoughts re LE efforts!

And I'm also really fascinated by Casey Anthony's state of mind (though I hate to say it.) IMO she's probably of average, or even above-average intelligence. I think, however, that Casey thinks she's much smarter than she actually is and-- most importantly-- that she's way smarter than everyone else. She seems to have almost zero personal insight or empathy and exhibits many other hallmark Cluster B (anti-social, narcissistic, borderline) characteristics. As a result, we see a relatively intelligent person behaving in really stupid ways-- i.e., telling ridiculous and inconsistent lies and refusing to back down when confronted with the truth; not even trying to report Caylee missing until Cindy Anthony hunts her down and calls 911, etc.)

Many people who aren't convinced of Casey's guilt have pointed to photographs of mother and daughter as evidence Casey had a strong maternal bond with her daughter. This photo jumped out at me when I first began following the case-- I think it really illustrates the psychological essence of Casey Anthony:
http://i38.tinypic.com/1zq4z7q.jpg
(I used Graphics Converter to generate the trajectory of Casey's gaze. She's holding this adorable child in a bunny costume and she's not looking at the adorable child at all. She's looking at herself.)

Interesting about the bunny photo. In most of the pictures I've seen, Caylee looks like a sweet little one, and Casey looks like she's posing next to a prop. It's creepy...

tiredofthis
09-03-2008, 09:16 AM
I used to think it was an accident, due to neglect. I don't anymore, especially with the picture deletion. Similar to Melinda Duckett. I think she did it to spite her parents.

True. If it was an accident she would want to hang on to every picture. Those pictures would be like gold to her. The fact she deleted them chills me to the bone.

This may have been covered, but did they ever release what kind of knife was found in Casey's car?

coltsgal
09-03-2008, 09:22 AM
I wouldn't say premeditation. But I say "spontaneous".

Premeditation and accident are so far apart, you need something in the middle. To cover the ones who think she got so angry and killed Caylee in the spur of the moment.

to cover: she didn't plan it. it wasn't an accident.

jbar
09-03-2008, 10:04 AM
As I recall, the pictures were deleted July 15th before Casey was arrested, when they were notifying people of her disappearance.


Which is a pretty weird time to DELETE pictures of a missing child, no? I would think a caring mother would ADD them... more pictures out there to be seen.

weasel
09-03-2008, 10:38 AM
<<She was planning on moving in with her friend, while supposedly following a "30 day script" from her kidnappers?>>

Good point. This is what confuses me the most. First, why would someone want to kidnap Caylee? Exactly what did they expect to gain after "30 days"? Obviously Casey didn't have money or she wouldn't have been stealing. Couldn't have been the old "white slavery or baby selling" thing either because I don't think people who would do that would take a child from someone who knows them and then say "if you follow our rules for 30 days you'll get her back". Any thoughts on this?

weasel
09-03-2008, 10:53 AM
Didn't mean to highjack the thread. My thoughts on premeditation versus accident ...

When all this first started, my initial thought was Casey had done something awful in a fit of rage to "get back" at her parents.

Balthazar
09-03-2008, 11:27 AM
True. If it was an accident she would want to hang on to every picture. Those pictures would be like gold to her. The fact she deleted them chills me to the bone.

This may have been covered, but did they ever release what kind of knife was found in Casey's car?

It was the knife from a placesetting of stainless - a dinner knife - not exactly what you would think of as a potential murder weapon.

jbar
09-03-2008, 05:09 PM
Chloroform found in car, "Someone" searched for info on Chloroform on her laptop.

Reported by Wesh2 @ 5pm broadcast.

Cagney
09-03-2008, 10:55 PM
Given the evidence of the chloroform searches on her computer and the chemical actually found in the car today- I am gonna venture to guess that this is gonna go to premeditation. I think once they find a body, we are talking first degree murder here.
There has been talk of a few cases where first degree murder has happened without a body- how many of you think that it could happen in this case?

Can the state get a conviction with all this evidence without the body?

jbar
09-03-2008, 10:57 PM
Wasn't there someone here, or on that monkey forum, that had a relative that used to work for Orlando LE and said something about scalp fragments on the hair found in the trunk?

IF that is true, ASSUMING that leaked info is accurate, I would think that, WITH the other evidence combined, would be enough to go without a body?

Speculation.

future criminologist
09-03-2008, 11:02 PM
I think saying it was an accident is giving her the benefit of the doubt, a benefit she has shown she does NOT deserve so far, simply because we want to believe she has the same attachment to the child she gave birth to that we do to a child we don't even know.

IMO, sadly, I don't see ANY evidence that this was an accident.

future criminologist
09-03-2008, 11:05 PM
in addition - the chloroform is going to give me nightmares tonight - I can't stop thinking about it. Knowing she did it is enough for me - I don't think I want to know HOW it happened, it will just be too much to comprehend.

jbar
09-03-2008, 11:07 PM
I don't think you should plan to be a "future criminologist" then :D

Cagney
09-03-2008, 11:30 PM
Given the evidence of the chloroform searches on her computer and the chemical actually found in the car today- I am gonna venture to guess that this is gonna go to premeditation. I think once they find a body, we are talking first degree murder here.
There has been talk of a few cases where first degree murder has happened without a body- how many of you think that it could happen in this case?

Can the state get a conviction with all this evidence without the body?

wedavis
09-04-2008, 12:05 AM
Where is the third choice? Somewhere in between an accident and premeditation. That is where my money is...

Unless something solid comes from this chloroform discovery.

jbar
09-04-2008, 12:06 AM
Well, this thread stemmed from another thread where these two options were part of the discussion.

Personally, I think premeditation. Accident is a no go for me - won't even entertain it... but what would be in between planning it and not planning it?

future criminologist
09-04-2008, 12:51 AM
I don't think you should plan to be a "future criminologist" then :D

HA, good point.

although having a reaction to this just makes me human, doesn't it? and not a monster like Ms. Anthony. so I'd rather be human I guess.

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:06 AM
If there had been an accident, such as an accidental drowning in the family pool, wouldn't there have been some type of scene? Neighbors heard yelling from the house when Casey was fighting with her mother, if she can be loud then, wouldn't she have made some kind of noise if she found her daughter unresponsive? The same for if she returned to the car and found Kaylee dead, who could so cold bloodedly just get behind the wheel and drive away?
Her behavior imo shows no remorse, she has filed things away in her mind and I believe that in her mind, she feels she did what she had to do. Casey is all about Casey, she got the new tattoo and more than likely believes that was enough to remember her daughter with. Her next thoughts were what outfit could she wear next time to the club.
Casey wanted a certain life style, Caylee did not fit into it, something needed to change and it wasn't going to be Casey becoming a responsible parent.

VB

That's very typical behavior, for a sociopath. So, I also thought it could have been an accident.

Until I heard about the chloroform. That's a WHOLE new ball game.

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:12 AM
Given the evidence of the chloroform searches on her computer and the chemical actually found in the car today- I am gonna venture to guess that this is gonna go to premeditation. I think once they find a body, we are talking first degree murder here.
There has been talk of a few cases where first degree murder has happened without a body- how many of you think that it could happen in this case?

Can the state get a conviction with all this evidence without the body?

A number of people (more than a few) have been convicted, without a body.

Sure! If they have enough circumstantial evidence. Until the chloroform, I woulda thunk they would have a problem with intent.

If they can prove it was Caylee's dead body in the car, then there are Casey's attempts to ditch the car, and cover up for the child's absence. ...

Motive (the chilld was getting in her way) method (hot car? chlorform? drowning?) and opportunity (plenty).

thatswhatshesaid
09-04-2008, 01:14 AM
From my first days following this case (a week after the first 911 calls) Casey showed so little remorse or concern for Caylee, I had a hard time believing it was anything but premeditated. There's a person being in shock and grieving in different ways. Then there's partying at Fusian and getting a new tatt. I just hope there is evidence of the planning and purpose that went into this horrific crime and she's tried and convicted on something more than the current charges.

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:15 AM
In my opinion, the only 30-day script Ms. Casey had was someone else's 'script of Xanax.

Just saying...there are tiny kernels of truth in her lies.

Someone, on another thread, proposed that references to "Zanny the Nanny" might have been sly references to dosing Caylee with Xanex. here was testimony re: Caylee being able to "sleep through anything" at parties.

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:16 AM
Premeditation can happen "in the twinkling of an eye".

Like if you load the gun, before you fire.

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:17 AM
IMO Casey didn't want to be a mom. She didn't want to be a responsible adult. She was probably a mom when it was convenient, when Caylee did cute things, etc. She didn't want her mother to become Caylee's mom either. It was said (I believe) that Cindy / George were going to go for custody of Caylee. Casey would have none of that. IMO she got rid of Caylee to spite her mother. Like others have said...shades of S. Peterson all over again. :mad:

Yep. And, Caylee wasn't a cute accessory infant, anymore. She was getting to be her own little toddler person.

impatientredhead
09-04-2008, 01:19 AM
Given the evidence of the chloroform searches on her computer and the chemical actually found in the car today- I am gonna venture to guess that this is gonna go to premeditation. I think once they find a body, we are talking first degree murder here.
There has been talk of a few cases where first degree murder has happened without a body- how many of you think that it could happen in this case?

Can the state get a conviction with all this evidence without the body?

It is a big piece of the puzzle, and yes I think they can get premeditation depending on the context of those searches.

Also keep in mind in Florida premeditation is not a requirement of murder one, aggravating issues (such as a child being the victim) can put it at a murder one, I don't think they will go for the death penalty unless they have a clear case of premeditation.

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:20 AM
I agree, one thing I've wondered about concerns her tattoo, did she ever go there previously to talk to them about it or did she just go in the 1 day and get it?

Of course she has had the make believe nanny for a long time so we could say that her nanny story was premeditated.

VB

That's hard to answer, because she had been hanging out there, off and on.

The tat artist said that all she talked about, while getting the tat, was Tony. When asked about the baby, she said that Caylee was with Zani in Sanford.

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:25 AM
I hope that some day Casey is consumed with this guilt. One day she will realize the importance of what she did.

Hopefully one day.

She needs to feel the guilt of never seeing her daughter get on the bus for her first day of school, the guilt about not hearing about her daughter's first kiss or first dance, her daughter's wedding day, her daughter having kids, etc...

I live for those moments. Every day I get off work, and I cannot drive to my sitter's fast enough to pick up my kids and ask them how their day was and what they did in school.

That's it. A NORMAL mother, finding her child missing, would call the cops THAT second, HOUND the cops for progress info, and tell them whatever they wanted to know through a bullhorn, if necessary.

ThoughtElf
09-04-2008, 01:25 AM
Where is the third choice? Somewhere in between an accident and premeditation. That is where my money is...

Unless something solid comes from this chloroform discovery.

Manslaughter, negligent homicide

Brini
09-04-2008, 01:26 AM
But was the nanny story premediated to cover for the murder, or was it something Casey used to explain to her parents where she was leaving Caylee on the days they weren't available to watch her? I'm not sure anyone really heard of Zanny the Nanny prior to Caylee's disappearance.

I think the friends and family said they'd heard of her. But, no one had ever seen or met her.