Nancy Cooper, 34, of Cary, N.C. #23

[Roy23]

Let me ask you guys and gals a question. This is for those in the community of Cary and nearby. I know everything points to Brad. I also believe the same. Is there any chance whatsoever that this man is innocent? I do truly believe that someone who knew her did this. I also believe it was pre-meditated. The man doesn't sleep with his wife for two years and it seems that she started rebelling.

I looked at all of the photo's of Nancy and her family. It totally breaks my heart that Brad could kill the mother of his children and the daughter of her parents. Deep down I hope he did not do this. Only a serious loser could ruin the lives of someone with two young children like this.

[DogWood]

I need some help here. Can't say why right now... What do you see in picture #5?

Describe in detail if you can. TIA!

http://www.newsobserver.com:80/news/photos/story/1142714.html

[raisincharlie]

The dog walking picture also seems to indicate that there isn't a window in the garage. Looks awfully dark in there. (RC asked earlier.)

Daphne - I found out - there are no windows in the garage and the side service door is a solid door- no light there either. Pretty sure enrty to the house proper from the garage is to the left side of the garage as well.

[DogWood]

Daphne - I found out - there are no windows in the garage and the side service door is a solid door- no light there either. Pretty sure enrty to the house proper from the garage is to the left side of the garage as well.


I totally agree with that assessment, RC! :)

[Roy23]

I need some help here. Can't say why right now... What do you see in picture #5?

Describe in detail if you can. TIA!

http://www.newsobserver.com:80/news/photos/story/1142714.html

Are you referring to the backdoor? I see a cameraman in the front and back. Also a reflection of the camerman in the front off the glass backdoor in the back of the house.

[Skittles]

It's not the back door, it's a mirror above a chest that is directly in front of you as you stand in the doorway.

ETA: You can even see the bevel on the left edge of the mirror. And there is a lamp on the chest/table, whatever it is.

[fran]

I need some help here. Can't say why right now... What do you see in picture #5?

Describe in detail if you can. TIA!

http://www.newsobserver.com:80/news/photos/story/1142714.html

I see two forensic's people standing at the front door and the girl (on left) is filming.

On into the room, there's another forensic person filming from a different angle.

Is there more detail you wanted?

JMHO
fran

[DogWood]

I see two forensic's people standing at the front door and the girl (on left) is filming.

On into the room, there's another forensic person filming from a different angle.

Is there more detail you wanted?

JMHO
fran

Thanks Roy, Skittles, and Fran!

I really want to know what you guys see. More detail if you can would be appreciated.

[momto3kids]

I see two forensic's people standing at the front door and the girl (on left) is filming.

On into the room, there's another forensic person filming from a different angle.

Is there more detail you wanted?

JMHO
fran

What other person is filming? This is the only one I see on the doorstep.

[Roy23]

It's not the back door, it's a mirror above a chest that is directly in front of you as you stand in the doorway.

ETA: You can even see the bevel on the left edge of the mirror. And there is a lamp on the chest/table, whatever it is.


Are you sure about this? Like Fran said, there would have to be someone sitting in the house that I cannot see that would make that reflection. Also, if that were a mirror you can see detail above the frame that seems to correspond with the detail in the mirror/glass window.

[DogWood]

It's not the back door, it's a mirror above a chest that is directly in front of you as you stand in the doorway.

ETA: You can even see the bevel on the left edge of the mirror. And there is a lamp on the chest/table, whatever it is.

What do you see in the mirror?

[Roy23]

What other person is filming? This is the only one I see on the doorstep.

Mom,

The lady in the front filming you can see a reflection in the glass on the back end of the house. You can see at least the arm. In the back you can see what is someone else squatting and filming.

[Skittles]

Thanks Roy, Skittles, and Fran!

I really want to know what you guys see. More detail if you can would be appreciated.

Well, above the head of the woman who's filming is what I think is a door hinge that sort of looks likes it's not attached to anything, but I suspect that's probably just the reflective properties of the hinge. Outside is a plant stand. The only other thing I see, near the top of the image in the mirror, is what should the reflection of the wood above the door and bellow the windows in the transom, but it just looks odd to me for some reason.

[Roy23]

What do you see in the mirror?

I don't think it is a mirror, you can see a shadow of the man's arm in the back going into the house.

[Star12]

I see the opened front door of the Cooper house, leading into the foyer. The overhead foyer light is turned on. There are two LE in the doorway, on the right is a balding male in a red shirt, khaki pants with zippered pockets and a side arm, wearing purple latex gloves and holding a clipboard. The other person on the left is a female wearing a tee shirt with a keyhole neck closure in the back, holding a video camera focused to the right inside of the foyer. Both are wearing booties. Immediately in front of the door, against the wall is a chest with two drawers and two doors, with a mirror on it, which is reflecting the outside trees, the doorway, and the top sidelight on top of the front door. Either that or I'm not sure what that would be. There is what appears to be a book on top of the chest, or perhaps the mirror does not come all the way down to the top of the chest and what I am seeing is wall. There also is a lamp to the right on the chest, and it is not turned on. The mirror appears to have beveled edges. Outside, brick steps, a railing on the right, and on the front porch is a planter with a plant in it.

[momto3kids]

It's not the back door, it's a mirror above a chest that is directly in front of you as you stand in the doorway.

ETA: You can even see the bevel on the left edge of the mirror. And there is a lamp on the chest/table, whatever it is.
You are correct.
It is a mirror and on the top part that has the white crossing it, is the reflection of the transom window over the front door.

[raisincharlie]

You are correct.
It is a mirror and on the top part that has the white crossing it, is the reflection of the transom window over the front door.

A bit off the conversation but am wondering do you know who the designer and builder of that house is (was) ?

[Roy23]

Yeah, I see it is a mirror now. There must be a person behind the two investigators at the front door. He might be filming something on the steps.

[momto3kids]

A bit off the conversation but am wondering do you know who the designer and builder of that house is (was) ?

I will double check but I think St.Lawrence

[Skittles]

Yeah, I see it is a mirror now. There must be a person behind the two investigators at the front door. He might be filming something on the steps.

I don't understand. The reflection you see in the mirror is the woman filming in the doorway. It just looks lower to you because of the angle of the person taking the photograph.

Or do you mean something else?

[raisincharlie]

I will double check but I think St.Lawrence


No need to double check - it is St. Lawrence. Avery or Georgetown do you know ?

[momto3kids]

Yeah, I see it is a mirror now. There must be a person behind the two investigators at the front door. He might be filming something on the steps.

I see 2 people and the reflection of the girl filming in pic 5. Look at the hair and her sleeve...it is the same.

[Skittles]

I will double check but I think St.Lawrence

Yes, it is. I spent hours on their site and couldn't any floorplan that looks like this one. Of course the house is more than ten years old.

[Roy23]

I don't understand. The reflection you see in the mirror is the woman filming in the doorway. It just looks lower to you because of the angle of the person taking the photograph.

Or do you mean something else?


Look on the far left side of the mirror. Up higher than the reflection that you are referring to. Do you see and extended arm with a camera on the far left side that looks to mirror the lady's arm in the front of the house?

[Star12]

Yeah, I see it is a mirror now. There must be a person behind the two investigators at the front door. He might be filming something on the steps.

Roy23, A mirror reflects. The female on the left is reflected in the mirror. She is holding a video camera. Can you see the front person has something black over her hand? That is the camera strap. Can you see the person reflected in the mirror, with her arm up, also has a video camera in her hand. Can you see that "both" people on the left have their arms up just the same? Can you see the female in the "front" is wearing a shirt the same color as the person at the left of the door? You are seeing a reflection from the mirror that is against the wall, on top of the chest. See it now? Sometimes your eyes can play tricks on you, is all.

[Skittles]

Look on the far left side of the mirror. Up higher than the reflection that you are referring to. Do you see and extended arm with a camera on the far left side that looks to mirror the lady's arm in the front of the house?

Sorry, I don't see it, except for the woman's reflection. I zoomed in and everything.

[Roy23]

Roy23, A mirror reflects. The female on the left is reflected in the mirror. She is holding a video camera. Can you see the front person has something black over her hand? That is the camera strap. Can you see the person reflected in the mirror, with her arm up, also has a video camera in her hand. Can you see that "both" people on the left have their arms up just the same? Can you see the female in the "front" is wearing a shirt the same color as the person at the left of the door? You are seeing a reflection from the mirror that is against the wall, on top of the chest. See it now? Sometimes your eyes can play tricks on you, is all.


Maybe so. It looks to me that right next to the middle part of the lamp is the reflection of an arm. I guess I can't really see a camera in the arm but it looks flexed as the person in front is.

[DogWood]

I don't understand. The reflection you see in the mirror is the woman filming in the doorway. It just looks lower to you because of the angle of the person taking the photograph.

Or do you mean something else?

That's what I see as well.

You guys are great.

Star, great job.

OK. Now to tell you why.

I fellow poster and I were having a discussion about floor plans today.

Next question. In the mirror, you can see the tree. Where is that coming from? Across the street?

Anyone who has been by the house, can you help us out?

[EntreNous]

Okay, here's what I see. On the front stoop of the Cooper house a young woman on the left holding a camcorder, a man on the right of the doorway holding a notebook, both are peering into the foyer. On the other side of the threshold I see a buffet or dresser of sorts with a large beveled mirror hanging directly over it with a mission/Gustav Stickley style frame. You can see the reflection of the young woman holding the camera and leaves on the trees that I assume are located across the street in front of the Cooper home. I also see a reflection in the mirror of the bottom of the transom window above the front door frame. Sitting on the buffet/dresser thingy is maybe a potted plant on the very far left, a lamp on the left side and what looks like a hardbound book sitting somewhat in the center. The buffet has two drawers and two doors as far as I can see.

Other than that I see the foyer ceiling light through the transom window, and a planter on the front stoop.

[Skittles]

Maybe so. It looks to me that right next to the middle part of the lamp is the reflection of an arm. I guess I can't really see a camera in the arm but it looks flexed as the person in front is.

I think that is an additional reflection of part of her arm in the beveled part of the mirror which will reflect back at a different angle.

[Star12]

See photo 33.

[The Saint]

in picture # 1
there is something that looks like a bullet casing, camera right on the driveway.
a metal object that looks like a slim jim (used to open locked cars. thieves, cops and car towtruck drivers use them to slide down the window and unlock the lock)[/quote]

[The Saint]

picture #5, possible blood splatter on the lampshade to the left of the mirror
where you see the videographer's image.

[raisincharlie]

Mt3K

Is the laundry room on the second floor ?

[The Saint]

See photo 33.

#33
only one of the shades in the living room is partially pulled down.
what was the norm for the coopers? were all the shades pulled down when they went to bed?

there is dark gray on the driveway to right of the SUV.

one of the shades on a small window, camera right is partially down --- to let light in? stairway or laundry room?

[EntreNous]

picture #5, possible blood splatter on the lampshade to the left of the mirror
where you the videographer's image.

:eek: What???

[momto3kids]

Mt3K

Is the laundry room on the second floor ?

Main floor.
RC..the one thing I am trying to remember is if you have to walk thru the laundry room to get into the garage and vice versa, into the house from the garage.

[Star12]

RC:

Sweetie Bubba, could I please take my turn with the brown paper and vinegar?

[raisincharlie]

Main floor.
RC..the one thing I am trying to remember is if you have to walk thru the laundry room to get into the garage and vice versa, into the house from the garage.

Do you have any idea when St. Lawrence started putting their laundry rooms on the second floor by any chance ? I know I sound crazy but please bear with me.

[raisincharlie]

RC:

Sweetie Bubba, could I please take my turn with the brown paper and vinegar?

Sure -here you go (passing it along)

What have I said now. :crazy:

[DogWood]

Main floor.
RC..the one thing I am trying to remember is if you have to walk thru the laundry room to get into the garage and vice versa, into the house from the garage.

OK. That's good to know! Thanks!

Is the family room right behind the garage? I see a chimney in the pictures behind the garage.

Is that correct?

[DogWood]

Do you have any idea when St. Lawrence started putting their laundry rooms on the second floor by any chance ? I know I sound crazy but please bear with me.

My guess would be early 2000?

Homeowners want that when all bedrooms are on the upper level?

[EntreNous]

In pictures #1 & #33 that black/dark thing is a vehicle floor mat, I'm assuming from the X5. You can see it much more clearly in pic #2.

[The Saint]

:eek: What???

put your eyes up to the computer screen.it is near the top on the right side of the shade.

let me see if i can enlarge and lightened it.

[raisincharlie]

My guess would be early 2000?

Homeowners want that when all bedrooms are on the upper level?


Fussy homeowners :crazy: Thanks ! Sure am curious.

[momto3kids]

Do you have any idea when St. Lawrence started putting their laundry rooms on the second floor by any chance ? I know I sound crazy but please bear with me.

Depends on the floor plans. I don't know exactly when...no
The home has 4 bedrooms, 2 full baths and 1 bonus room upstairs

[momto3kids]

My guess would be early 2000?

Homeowners want that when all bedrooms are on the upper level?
Maybe for track builders it was, but in 1984 we had an upstairs laundry room done by a custom builder.

[raisincharlie]

Depends on the floor plans. I don't know exactly when...no
The home has 4 bedrooms, 2 full baths and 1 bonus room upstairs

Three bedrooms on the street side - master bedroom in the right back corner with huge walkin closet off the master bath. 2nd full bath centrally located, bonus room iin the left back corner ? Stairs on the left center ? open to the foyer ?

[Star12]

Picture No. 33 was in reference to the trees that Dogwood was asking about. Nothing more, nothing less.

[DogWood]

Maybe for track builders it was, but in 1984 we had an upstairs laundry room done by a custom builder.

Would you consider them a track builder?

Seems like they do several elevations of the same design...

So was the laundry room upstairs in the Cooper home?

[DogWood]

Picture No. 33 was in reference to the trees that Dogwood was asking about. Nothing more, nothing less.

So do you see the shadow of the tree on the front lawn...as if it was out front? The one we see in the mirror?

[EntreNous]

I would think the bonus room would be over the garage.

[raisincharlie]

I would think the bonus room would be over the garage.

That would be consistent with an Avery by St. Lawrence which has the garage to the left side of the house. The Georgetown however has a bedroom over a garage on the right side of the house.

[Star12]

So do you see the shadow of the tree on the front lawn...as if it was out front? The one we see in the mirror?

The photograph probably was shot from a slight angle. I don't think there are any magic trees there. Looks to me to be the one in the yard.

[ncnative]

Very interesting speculations NCNative! :):)

Thanks, Anderson, for figuring out that indeed, these were my speculations. :cool2:I knew a rocket scientist would come along and figure that out, rather than question me as to whether I "...knew him..." or not.

[The Saint]

this lamp by the mirror could be what was carried out in the tall brown sack by the investigators. it appears that there could be blood splatters on the lampshade on the right side from the middle on down.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x178/77M33/CooperthruFrontDoor.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x178/77M33/CooperHOUSE.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x178/77M33/CooperDriveway.jpg

[FullDisclosure]

slim jim--now THAT is funny!! :crazy:

[EntreNous]

RC, I'm thinking this house may be an Avery flipped. Contractors flip plans a lot to break up the monotony.

Here's the plan to the Avery but I flipped it...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/entrenous_album/averyfloorplanflipped-1.gif

[Star12]

wow, saint. you sure went to a lot of trouble.

[momto3kids]

The blue object on the porch was a little container, lunch box with Bella's name on it. The bag carried out was around 6' long, too long for this lamp. I still say window valance and the cord was used to strangle NC.
The small window is is the staircase that has the ADT sign in it.

[The Saint]

Here's another quote from Scott's blog I find interesting:

The month of July held a very interesting experience for me. A friend of mine, Nancy Cooper, was murdered in the town and neighborhood I used to live in. With the investigation still in progress I (and all of us) do not know much about how she was killed. The police are doing a very thorough job in doing their investigation and making sure they have all of the facts, NOT SPECULATION, in order to find who killed Nancy. The real eye-opener is how the media and much of the communinity have come up with their own stories without having any information or facts. I'm seeing first hand how emotions can run wild, while knee jerk decisions of guilt have been layed down. Coming from a Criminal Justice major in college I'm a true believer in: Innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way around as many individuals are siding on. It's very sad to see this in our community.

scott heider,
what is sadder is having a young mother of 2 girls MURDERED in your community by a man you call a friend.

[momto3kids]

RC, I'm thinking this house may be an Avery flipped. Contractors flip plans a lot to break up the monotony.

Here's the plan to the Avery but I flipped it...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/entrenous_album/averyfloorplanflipped-1.gif

There is no bedroom downstairs. The staircase is the small window to the right of the front door.
2 full baths are upstairs.

[The Saint]

The blue object on the porch was a little container, lunch box with Bella's name on it. The bag carried out was around 6' long, too long for this lamp. I still say window valance and the cord was used to strangle NC.
The small window is is the staircase that has the ADT sign in it.

did the lunch box get left behind after the girls were ushered out of the house?
or had nancy already packed it and was ready to take the girls somewhere and the TOD is later than we think?

[The Saint]

wow, saint. you sure went to a lot of trouble.


i just wanted people to be able to see what i was seeing.

[ncnative]

I ride by the house every day. I don't think that your plan here is the same as the Cooper's home. No, it isn't.

There is a floor mat from the car, lying on the driveway (someone said it looked like a grey stain...it's a floor mat.)

[raisincharlie]

RC, I'm thinking this house may be an Avery flipped. Contractors flip plans a lot to break up the monotony.

Here's the plan to the Avery but I flipped it...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s62/entrenous_album/averyfloorplanflipped-1.gif


Good job - did they also combine two of th ebedrooms possibly ? The Avery is like 3100 square feet - Wakegov. org lists the Cooper house at near 2800 - such as a Georgetown. However a Georgetown has an open view to the breakfast area - in that respect this house more resembles a flipped Avery. Both are listed as having the laundry room upstairs.

For me the laundry room location is rather important - seeing as how someone bought milk at 6:20, came home and noticed there was no detergent and then ran back to the store at 6:30. Quick trip home with time to spare looking for laundry detergent.

[ncnative]

Saint, I saw what you had emphasized with your red marker. That is the image reflection of the lamp shade. I can see that one could see stains on the lamp shade, but the photo just isn't that revealing.

Yes, I agree with Mom that the bag was long enough to put an adult into.

[SleuthyGal]

That's what I see as well.

You guys are great.

Star, great job.

OK. Now to tell you why.

I fellow poster and I were having a discussion about floor plans today.

Next question. In the mirror, you can see the tree. Where is that coming from? Across the street?

Anyone who has been by the house, can you help us out?

Dogwood, I like a good mystery as much as the next person, but I'm hoping you'll just cut to the chase and tell us what it is you think you see and then why you think it's important so we can all discuss it rather than try to guess what you think you see (or not see).

[booradley]

I thought I'd come out of lurking to add my 2cents to the discussion of the floor plan. My dh worked for St Lawrence Homes for 10 years, I showed him photo of Coopers, he says it is a Charleston floorplan ( one that is no longer built) We lived in an Avery for many years, ours did not look like Coopers, although I know they have lots of elevations (fronts) to choose from for most of their plans. If it is a Charleston, I can get him to run through the floor plan with me if I can get him off his blackberry. If it is indeed an avery as many of you suspect, I can tell you the floorplan. I really do not think it is an avery as ours had a huge open staircase when you came in front door, not at all like the photos of Coopers.

[Star12]

Good job - did they also combine two of th ebedrooms possibly ? The Avery is like 3100 square feet - Wakegov. org lists the Cooper house at near 2800 - such as a Georgetown. However a Georgetown has an open view to the breakfast area - in that respect this house more resembles a flipped Avery. Both are listed as having the laundry room upstairs.

For me the laundry room location is rather important - seeing as how someone bought milk at 6:20, came home and noticed there was no detergent and then ran back to the store at 6:30. Quick trip home with time to spare looking for laundry detergent.

but the foyer of this avery does not match the photo we've just been staring at.

[booradley]

There is no bedroom downstairs. The staircase is the small window to the right of the front door.
2 full baths are upstairs.


Please see my posts about the floorplan. I do think it is a Charleston, unfortunately no longer built by St Lawrence, the door at the top of the steps in the garage goes directly into the laundry room which is basically a galley with w and dryer on one side with no windows, goes into the kitchen. MT3K is correct, there are no downstairs bedrooms in Charleston. Hall bath behind wall that you see in photo that is very small and has no window. I will get back with more details as my husband gives them to me.

[raisincharlie]

but the foyer of this avery does not match the photo we've just been staring at.

I know - there seem to be several inconsistencies but it may be due to the house being 15 years old and some of the changes may have been learned from errors perhaps ? I must admit however that I am also very curious to know if the upstairs area still opens to the foyer area. There seems to me a possibility that someone could fall or be pushed from that area and have it end rather badly.

As usual Star - you all have to draw me pictures !

[The Saint]

NCN thanks for explaining the car mat.
i see dark red areas on that lampshade that appear to be blood to me. it may be a shadow or a reflection or even the pattern of the shade but i would not rule it out as being a bloodstain, not yet.

[raisincharlie]

Please see my posts about the floorplan. I do think it is a Charleston, unfortunately no longer built by St Lawrence, the door at the top of the steps in the garage goes directly into the laundry room which is basically a galley with w and dryer on one side with no windows, goes into the kitchen. MT3K is correct, there are no downstairs bedrooms in Charleston. Hall bath behind wall that you see in photo that is very small and has no window. I will get back with more details as my husband gives them to me.

Where would those be booradley ? Very curious here. TIA

[SleuthyGal]

Is the laundry room on the 1st or 2nd floor in their house?

[The Saint]

I know - there seem to be several inconsistencies but it may be due to the house being 15 years old and some of the changes may have been learned from errors perhaps ? I must admit however that I am also very curious to know if the upstairs area still opens to the foyer area. There seems to me a possibility that someone could fall or be pushed from that area and have it end rather badly.

As usual Star - you all have to draw me pictures !

i hadn't even considered that nancy may have been pushed to her death. that is an interesting theory.

[SleuthyGal]

NCN thanks for explaining the car mat.
i see dark red areas on that lampshade that appear to be blood to me. it may be a shadow or a reflection or even the pattern of the shade but i would not rule it out as being a bloodstain, not yet.

Perhaps my monitor isn't a high enough resolution but I'm not seeing any stains on the lampshade. I am intrigued though.

[Star12]

I know - there seem to be several inconsistencies but it may be due to the house being 15 years old and some of the changes may have been learned from errors perhaps ? I must admit however that I am also very curious to know if the upstairs area still opens to the foyer area. There seems to me a possibility that someone could fall or be pushed from that area and have it end rather badly.

As usual Star - you all have to draw me pictures !

I love movies, and as many as I have seen, you'd think I would have thought of the pushed/fallen down-the-stairs scenario. But, had she fallen or been pushed, there would have been no need for her to be found on the other side of Holly Springs Road, instead of at the foot of the steps from an accident.

[SleuthyGal]

i hadn't even considered that nancy may have been pushed to her death. that is an interesting theory.

Over a banister then or down the stairs? Wonder if that would break some of the banister. I imagine it would have been a rather loud noise, possibly waking one or both children.

We really need to find out the COD otherwise we're going to pin this crime on Mrs. Mustard with the candlestick in the parlor.

[booradley]

Where would those be booradley ? Very curious here. TIA

Sorry, did not understand your question. My husband is now irritated with my interuptions, he just yelled to me, tell those folks I had to sit in a Charlestonmodel almost everyday for five years, I know a Charleston when I see one. And, he says the stair case is open so that someone could fall or be pushed from top to hardwoods below. K

[The Saint]

different builder but this is a charleston
http://www.pbase.com/beagleracing/image/10057574

[The Saint]

Over a banister then or down the stairs? Wonder if that would break some of the banister. I imagine it would have been a rather loud noise, possibly waking one or both children.


was the foyer stone tile?

[booradley]

Is the laundry room on the 1st or 2nd floor in their house?

see my posts, it is on first floor, when you come in from garage you are in laundry room, it is very small, big enough for w and d and not much else, you go out of laundry into a small hall that leads to downstairs hall bath.

[raisincharlie]

I love movies, and as many as I have seen, you'd think I would have thought of the pushed/fallen down-the-stairs scenario. But, had she fallen or been pushed, there would have been no need for her to be found on the other side of Holly Springs Road, instead of at the foot of the steps from an accident.

Dunno - anything is possible when one is ticked off and taking it out on someone that ticked them off. Might be some bruises, broken railings or what not that might be hard to explain as an accident. And given Michael Peterson and his results, kinda doubt I would be calling 911 myself.

[SleuthyGal]

Since I never bought the theory that he 'noticed' they were out of laundry detergent or that NC asked him to get some I'm not sure what the size/position of the laundry room would signify otherwise. I guess I discount those reasons for shopping since I think it was to establish an alibi.

[booradley]

different builder but this is a charleston
http://www.pbase.com/beagleracing/image/10057574

Sorry, not even close, St Lawrences Charleston has no bedrooms on first floor, by the way, master bedroom is over top of the garage in the St Lawrence Charleston.

[SleuthyGal]

was the foyer stone tile?

No idea. I know nothing about their house.

[EntreNous]

Good job - did they also combine two of th ebedrooms possibly ? The Avery is like 3100 square feet - Wakegov. org lists the Cooper house at near 2800 - such as a Georgetown. However a Georgetown has an open view to the breakfast area - in that respect this house more resembles a flipped Avery. Both are listed as having the laundry room upstairs.

For me the laundry room location is rather important - seeing as how someone bought milk at 6:20, came home and noticed there was no detergent and then ran back to the store at 6:30. Quick trip home with time to spare looking for laundry detergent.

The only modifications I can see that are evident is that rather than the staircase in the place shown on the plan, the Cooper's staircase is actually where the "study" would have been. Thus the Coopers foyer has a solid wall in the place where the plan shows the staircase.

I've talked to hubbs about this as he and his father were home contractors here in town for years. He says it's very common to tweak home plans to cut costs both in the case of a "spec" home and a pre-sold home.

[raisincharlie]

Sorry, did not understand your question. My husband is now irritated with my interuptions, he just yelled to me, tell those folks I had to sit in a Charlestonmodel almost everyday for five years, I know a Charleston when I see one. And, he says the stair case is open so that someone could fall or be pushed from top to hardwoods below. K

Sorry to get you in trouble ! I was refering to your posts - would like to go back and review them if you recall where they were. Sorry to not be clear.

[maconrich]

This was posted awhile back - might help a little
http://services.wakegov.com/realestate/Building.asp?id=0198935&stype=addr&stnum=104&stname=wallsburg&locidList=&spg=1&cd=01&loc=104++WALLSBURG+CT&des=LO17+LOCHSIDE+GLEN+SUB+BM1993-916&pin=0772139589

[DogWood]

Dogwood, I like a good mystery as much as the next person, but I'm hoping you'll just cut to the chase and tell us what it is you think you see and then why you think it's important so we can all discuss it rather than try to guess what you think you see (or not see).

Thought I did. Sorry!

We were discussing the floorplan. I saw one thing, someone else saw another.

Do you know anything about the floorplan of the house?

Where's the laundry room?

[EntreNous]

I love movies, and as many as I have seen, you'd think I would have thought of the pushed/fallen down-the-stairs scenario. But, had she fallen or been pushed, there would have been no need for her to be found on the other side of Holly Springs Road, instead of at the foot of the steps from an accident.
It would necessitate it if she were pushed off the balcony or down the stairs and was hurt badly, then he decided to finish her off with a final blow.

[momto3kids]

Sorry, not even close, St Lawrences Charleston has no bedrooms on first floor, by the way, master bedroom is over top of the garage in the St Lawrence Charleston.
There were other plans also that St Lawrence did....I don't think this is the Charleston.

[raisincharlie]

I don't think anyone knows honestly. And I don't think anyone here has been in the house to say for sure how it is layed out.

Maybe someone who has been in it will take pity on us and provide us with some answers. No sense arguing about it.

[SleuthyGal]

Thought I did. Sorry!

We were discussing the floorplan. I saw one thing, someone else saw another.

Do you know anything about the floorplan of the house?

Where's the laundry room?

As I said upstream, I know nothing about the Cooper house or it's floorplan.

[booradley]

my original post is just a few back. My husband just looked at the exterior again and is absolutely certain it is a Charleston. He drew the floor plan for me and I will try to describe it to you. Tomorrow my husband will look in his files and see if he has the floorplan, if he does, I will scan it and post. Anyway, enter through the front door, to the left is smallish living room in front, that would be large window seen in picture on front, behind that is dining room, moving across back of house from dining room you have kitchen breakfast area and then family room, all the way across the back. As I mentioned before, enter into laundry room from garage which is galley type that opens into a small hall. If you keep going straight from laundry room, you run into half bath, very small with no window. The window on the exterior that looks like it is in between floors is on the landing of the staircase, (L shaped stairs) entire foyer and staircase has cathedral ceiling that is the height of the house basically, at top of stairs, master is immmediate right, small sitting area in master at front of house over garage, master bath behind bedroom along the back of house, loft area to left at steps, three other bedrooms and a hall bath. It is an option to finish the loft into a fifth bedroom, if it is not finished, the loft is open to the cathedral foyer with what is called a catwalk, spindles like on the staircase. I know all of this is probably just confusing everyone. A family member owns St Lawrence so I know I can eventually get my hands on the floorplan, but as my husband just said, it would be very possible to push someone all the way from the top floor to bottom either at staircase of in open area that over looks first floor !:eek:

[EntreNous]

There were other plans also that St Lawrence did....I don't think this is the Charleston.

MT3K which plan do you think it is?

[DogWood]

I don't think anyone knows honestly. And I don't think anyone here has been in the house to say for sure how it is layed out.

Maybe someone who has been in it will take pity on us and provide us with some answers. No sense arguing about it.

Yep! That would be awesome!

[DogWood]

Sorry, did not understand your question. My husband is now irritated with my interuptions, he just yelled to me, tell those folks I had to sit in a Charlestonmodel almost everyday for five years, I know a Charleston when I see one. And, he says the stair case is open so that someone could fall or be pushed from top to hardwoods below. K

Tell Hubby sorry, but thanks! :)

And thank you!

[booradley]

There were other plans also that St Lawrence did....I don't think this is the Charleston.

Mt3K: have you looked at my posts, you might be thinking of another name because it was originally called a Windsor. St Lawrence changed the name after making just a few modifications to the plan in 1994. Just like you "know" lots of things related to this case, I "know" the floorplan. Believe me, I "know" lots more about St Lawrence than I ever wanted to know!

[momto3kids]

my original post is just a few back. My husband just looked at the exterior again and is absolutely certain it is a Charleston. He drew the floor plan for me and I will try to describe it to you. Tomorrow my husband will look in his files and see if he has the floorplan, if he does, I will scan it and post. Anyway, enter through the front door, to the left is smallish living room in front, that would be large window seen in picture on front, behind that is dining room, moving across back of house from dining room you have kitchen breakfast area and then family room, all the way across the back. As I mentioned before, enter into laundry room from garage which is galley type that opens into a small hall. If you keep going straight from laundry room, you run into half bath, very small with no window. The window on the exterior that looks like it is in between floors is on the landing of the staircase, (L shaped stairs) entire foyer and staircase has cathedral ceiling that is the height of the house basically, at top of stairs, master is immmediate right, small sitting area in master at front of house over garage, master bath behind bedroom along the back of house, loft area to left at steps, three other bedrooms and a hall bath. It is an option to finish the loft into a fifth bedroom, if it is not finished, the loft is open to the cathedral foyer with what is called a catwalk, spindles like on the staircase. I know all of this is probably just confusing everyone. A family member owns St Lawrence so I know I can eventually get my hands on the floorplan, but as my husband just said, it would be very possible to push someone all the way from the top floor to bottom either at staircase of in open area that over looks first floor !:eek:
Wasn't the Charleston bigger than 2800? I thought it was over 3000 sq'

[jilly]

scott heider,
what is sadder is having a young mother of 2 girls MURDERED in your community by a man you call a friend.

:clap: No kidding hey? And what's even more "interesting" is that the husband of the woman who was murdered had an extra marital fling with the blogger's wife ..... and they're still best friends. (I don't care if it was his ex at the time either.) I think I'm getting a better picture of what these guys think about women.

[booradley]

Interior dimensions of the Charleston is 2686 sq feet. If option sitting room in master is added, square footage increases to 2886. At time home was built, adding sitting room costs $2000. Please note, tax records would reflect adding an additional 4 inches all around the perimeter of the house, first and second floors, adding additional square footage. This information comes straight from my dh's mouth!

[SleuthyGal]

Why all the sudden interest in the floorplan? Is everyone trying to figure out where he might have murdered her, as in which room specifically?

I believe without COD (and finding out if there was ANY evidence in the house) it's going to be like grasping at straws. For instance, if she was murdered from strangulation that could have been done anywhere 1st floor or 2nd floor. Blunt Force trauma could also occur on either floor, in possibly several different rooms.

I know for myself I really need to know COD to take my theories to the next level.

[raisincharlie]

my original post is just a few back. My husband just looked at the exterior again and is absolutely certain it is a Charleston. He drew the floor plan for me and I will try to describe it to you. Tomorrow my husband will look in his files and see if he has the floorplan, if he does, I will scan it and post. Anyway, enter through the front door, to the left is smallish living room in front, that would be large window seen in picture on front, behind that is dining room, moving across back of house from dining room you have kitchen breakfast area and then family room, all the way across the back. As I mentioned before, enter into laundry room from garage which is galley type that opens into a small hall. If you keep going straight from laundry room, you run into half bath, very small with no window. The window on the exterior that looks like it is in between floors is on the landing of the staircase, (L shaped stairs) entire foyer and staircase has cathedral ceiling that is the height of the house basically, at top of stairs, master is immmediate right, small sitting area in master at front of house over garage, master bath behind bedroom along the back of house, loft area to left at steps, three other bedrooms and a hall bath. It is an option to finish the loft into a fifth bedroom, if it is not finished, the loft is open to the cathedral foyer with what is called a catwalk, spindles like on the staircase. I know all of this is probably just confusing everyone. A family member owns St Lawrence so I know I can eventually get my hands on the floorplan, but as my husband just said, it would be very possible to push someone all the way from the top floor to bottom either at staircase of in open area that over looks first floor !:eek:


Okay - I can picture this. Thank you very much ! It helps, at least me.
If you could get a plan and scan it in - that would be great and would be a valuable resource - you know these questions will come up again.


Appreciate it very much !!!

[ncnative]

Dunno - anything is possible when one is ticked off and taking it out on someone that ticked them off. Might be some bruises, broken railings or what not that might be hard to explain as an accident. And given Michael Peterson and his results, kinda doubt I would be calling 911 myself.

Should we consider the owl theory now? A microscopic:shocked2: owl from the nearby tree swooped in and...

Being knocked over the railing is another option. But there would have been screaming if she went over the rail alive. The children would have been awakened. They would have said something to people later.

I think he would have been more sneaky, as with suffocation, strangulation or something else more quiet and less messy. Just thinking.

When parents are found dead in their home with little children present, why don't they do drug testing on the children if there seems to be possible murder by the other spouse? The other person could have drugged the children to sleep through the ordeal, if it were planned or if they woke up.

[The Saint]

here is a blowup of the possible blood stain on the lampshade as well as a recreation of what i see when i look at the photo with my eyes very close to the computer screen

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x178/77M33/coopershade.jpg

[EntreNous]

Interior dimensions of the Charleston is 2686 sq feet. If option sitting room in master is added, square footage increases to 2886. At time home was built, adding sitting room costs $2000. Please note, tax records would reflect adding an additional 4 inches all around the perimeter of the house, first and second floors, adding additional square footage. This information comes straight from my dh's mouth!

That means if it is the Charleston/Windsor we either have lost 84 sq. ft. somewhere or the tax records are off by 84 sq. ft., the latter happens a lot around here. Not sure how thorough they are in NC.

[SleuthyGal]

Okay yes, I do kind of see a cursive dark thing that you are pointing out, but the overall picture is too dark/grainy on my screen. No idea if that is a stain or just some kind of optical illusion/shadow or something.

[DogWood]

Mt3K: have you looked at my posts, you might be thinking of another name because it was originally called a Windsor. St Lawrence changed the name after making just a few modifications to the plan in 1994. Just like you "know" lots of things related to this case, I "know" the floorplan. Believe me, I "know" lots more about St Lawrence than I ever wanted to know!

One more question? Pretty please?

Is the laundry room upstairs in the plan? Or is it an option with that builder?

[ncnative]

Uh oh. Now I have to go to sleep with the vision of that lampshade in my dreams.

[momto3kids]

here is a blowup of the possible blood stain on the lampshade as well as a recreation of what i see when i look at the photo with my eyes very close to the computer screen

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x178/77M33/coopershade.jpg
If it is like me I kill a fly no matter where it lands!
Lampshade of not.....See it tried to crawl away on the shade an made a squiggly run for it, but it was too late.:biglaugh:

[The Saint]

This was posted awhile back - might help a little
http://services.wakegov.com/realestate/Building.asp?id=0198935&stype=addr&stnum=104&stname=wallsburg&locidList=&spg=1&cd=01&loc=104++WALLSBURG+CT&des=LO17+LOCHSIDE+GLEN+SUB+BM1993-916&pin=0772139589

it's the same w/ the michelle young house. the tax floorplans are too "sketchy." we'll have to wait for boo's husband

[jmflu]

If it is like me I kill a fly no matter where it lands!
Lampshade of not.....See it tried to crawl away on the shade an made a squiggly run for it, but it was too late.:biglaugh:

That's a lot of mess for a fly!

I do see the stain... I wonder if it means anything? Would he have been so careful but missed that? Would he not be under arrest now if that was NC's blood??

[raisincharlie]

Should we consider the owl theory now? A microscopic:shocked2: owl from the nearby tree swooped in and...

Being knocked over the railing is another option. But there would have been screaming if she went over the rail alive. The children would have been awakened. They would have said something to people later.

I think he would have been more sneaky, as with suffocation, strangulation or something else more quiet and less messy. Just thinking.

When parents are found dead in their home with little children present, why don't they do drug testing on the children if there seems to be possible murder by the other spouse? The other person could have drugged the children to sleep through the ordeal, if it were planned or if they woke up.

If it was premeditated murder I would agree - suffocation is a likely choice - strangulation is neither quiet nor easy - especially if Nancy was half way fit - which obviously she was.

My opinion - this was a knock down, drag out and those kids unfortunately were use to hearing it so it really wouldn't be anything new to them. something they would just stay away from.

[The Saint]

i'm fixated on the idea that RC had that brad pushed nancy to her death. the girls may have heard her scream but brad could have shooed them back in the bedroom bfore they saw their mother's body below. brad could have said she saw a mouse and that everything was ok.

he could have said that "mommy had a bad dream" and that they are talking about it.

[ncnative]

That's a lot of mess for a fly!

I do see the stain... I wonder if it means anything? Would he have been so careful but missed that? Would he not be under arrest now if that was NC's blood??

Must have been a big cicada.

No, how could they arrest him? There was an intrusion by a burglar while Brad was shopping at Harris Teeter.:D

Also, if that's blood in your mind, then I see where the same could be true up above that stain. Anyway, he would have done away with a bloody lampshade.

[booradley]

in the photo of the garage, you see steps, the door at the top of those steps takes you directly into the laundry room. In all the years that my dh worked for St Lawrence, no one ever moved the laundry room, changes like that involve plumbing which gets very expensive. By the way, there is now some question raised by MT3K that the home is not a charleston, I will try to clear it up tomorrow.

[ncnative]

i'm fixated on the idea that RC had that brad pushed nancy to her death. the girls may have heard her scream but brad could have shooed them back in the bedroom bfore they saw their mother's body below. brad could have said she saw a mouse and that everything was ok.

he could have said that "mommy had a bad dream" and that they are talking about it.

The mouse story would have caused some children to be afraid that the mouse would be coming into their room.

[Star12]

That's a lot of mess for a fly!

I do see the stain... I wonder if it means anything? Would he have been so careful but missed that? Would he not be under arrest now if that was NC's blood??

why would they arrest him? It was her house. She lived there. Her DNA should be in that house. All over it. His too, for that matter. Yes, even her blood. Could have broken a lightbulb, for instance, and bled on the shade. Happens all the time. So that would not necessarily be evidence of anything.

Yes, I do think he did it. But LE is not going to arrest someone over a bloodstain found in their own home. We all would be in jail if that were the case.

[jmflu]

why would they arrest him? It was her house. She lived there. Her DNA should be in that house. All over it. His too, for that matter. Yes, even her blood. Could have broken a lightbulb, for instance, and bled on the shade. Happens all the time. So that would not necessarily be evidence of anything.

Yes, I do think he did it. But LE is not going to arrest someone over a bloodstain found in their own home. We all would be in jail if that were the case.


Well, rats, Star! I was ready to call LE, point out the stain, and have him arrested!

Back to the drawing board...

[ncnative]

I wonder if Nancy's friends ever saw her with bruises on her body that could have been from spousal abuse? They don't mention it, yet I wonder. I don't think he'd leave a bruise where her friends could see it, anyway. That would make him "look bad".

[momto3kids]

Must have been a big cicada.

No, how could they arrest him? There was an intrusion by a burglar while Brad was shopping at Harris Teeter.:D

Also, if that's blood in your mind, then I see where the same could be true up above that stain. Anyway, he would have done away with a bloody lampshade.


Remember he as ADT...no burglar IMO. Unless he just happen to forget to set the alarm.

I was using the fly as an example...just saying a bee or fly, anything I don't hesitate killing it, lampshade or not.

[DogWood]

in the photo of the garage, you see steps, the door at the top of those steps takes you directly into the laundry room. In all the years that my dh worked for St Lawrence, no one ever moved the laundry room, changes like that involve plumbing which gets very expensive. By the way, there is now some question raised by MT3K that the home is not a charleston, I will try to clear it up tomorrow.


Thank you!

Please thank Hubby too!

We appreciate your inside knowledge!

[Star12]

But then, we don't know for certain if it actually is a stain, and if it is, that it's a blood stain. Could be jelly, or even marker.

[ncnative]

The kids could've gone up to the top level and emptied their sippy cups down, down, down to the foyer for a little excitement. Still, Nancy was into "clean". She would not have left a dirty lampshade in her entry.

[EntreNous]

why would they arrest him? It was her house. She lived there. Her DNA should be in that house. All over it. His too, for that matter. Yes, even her blood. Could have broken a lightbulb, for instance, and bled on the shade. Happens all the time. So that would not necessarily be evidence of anything.

Yes, I do think he did it. But LE is not going to arrest someone over a bloodstain found in their own home. We all would be in jail if that were the case.

But if there is blood spatter they could determine the projected spatter through different scenarios when running them with the wounds found on the body. Right?

[ncnative]

Mom, I was joking about the cicada and the burglar.

[Star12]

The kids could've gone up to the top level and emptied their sippy cups down, down, down to the foyer for a little excitement. Still, Nancy was into "clean". She would not have left a dirty lampshade in her entry.

It could have happened while "Superdad" was on duty.

[momto3kids]

Mom, I was joking about the cicada and the burglar.

LOL....I know and I was joking about a fly!

[raisincharlie]

But then, we don't know for certain if it actually is a stain, and if it is, that it's a blood stain. Could be jelly, or even marker.

I vote for jelly maybe even a bit of peanut butter in there. :crazy:

[EntreNous]

I vote for jelly maybe even a bit of peanut butter in there. :crazy:

It absolutely could be. It could even be part of a pattern of design on the shade.

At any rate, good eye Saint. I didn't see it until you pointed it out.

[raisincharlie]

It absolutely could be. It could even be part of a pattern of design on the shade.

At any rate, good eye Saint. I didn't see it until you pointed it out.

I didn't see it either actually but then again concentrating that hard on a picture is simply beyond my capabilities. Glad someone has the ability to do it though.

[CyberPro]

I didn't see it either actually but then again concentrating that hard on a picture is simply beyond my capabilities. Glad someone has the ability to do it though.

Yeah, I thought I had a pretty good monitor, but I was not seeing the stains either. It seems to me that something like that would be hard to overlook if you were trying to clean up a bio-mess that you created.

LOL at the comment about Mrs. Mustard, too true. It reminds me of an old Jimmy Stewart movie where someone was talking about commiting a murder by beating someone with a cane, and making the victim hold the cane. Like they would beat themselves to death.

CyberPro

[jilly]

here is a blowup of the possible blood stain on the lampshade as well as a recreation of what i see when i look at the photo with my eyes very close to the computer screen

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x178/77M33/coopershade.jpg

Holy Crow Saint! I better schedule that laser eye surgery!:)

[raisincharlie]

Yeah, I thought I had a pretty good monitor, but I was not seeing the stains either. It seems to me that something like that would be hard to overlook if you were trying to clean up a bio-mess that you created.

LOL at the comment about Mrs. Mustard, too true. It reminds me of an old Jimmy Stewart movie where someone was talking about commiting a murder by beating someone with a cane, and making the victim hold the cane. Like they would beat themselves to death.

CyberPro

I think Harvey is calling me :crazy:

[sunflowers]

Should we consider the owl theory now? A microscopic:shocked2: owl from the nearby tree swooped in and...

Being knocked over the railing is another option. But there would have been screaming if she went over the rail alive. The children would have been awakened. They would have said something to people later.

I think he would have been more sneaky, as with suffocation, strangulation or something else more quiet and less messy. Just thinking.

When parents are found dead in their home with little children present, why don't they do drug testing on the children if there seems to be possible murder by the other spouse? The other person could have drugged the children to sleep through the ordeal, if it were planned or if they woke up.

i thought about whether JY gave Cassidy some kind of sleeping pill (since killing MIchelle was pre-meditated), but I think he thought it'd be much easier & could be done quietly. Still, it's possible that he gave her something before he left for VA.....

In BC's case, if he murdered Nancy, it may not have been pre-meditated & he might not have had a chance. Or, if he did give the kids sleeping meds (thus, premed.), the meds would have been out of their system by the time LE was involved in a murder investigation (had to find Nancy's body first....)

[CyberPro]

here is a blowup of the possible blood stain on the lampshade as well as a recreation of what i see when i look at the photo with my eyes very close to the computer screen

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x178/77M33/coopershade.jpg

I went back yout your original lightened up image that you posted, and used the Microsoft magnifier program. I could see it pretty well when I set it for 8X magnification, and I DO see it in the lighter image. I could not make it out at all on the darker one. If I set the magnifier at 9X magnification, the image gets too pixelated to tell for sure if I am seeing something that is really there, or an artifact from the attempts of the computer to accurately display colors, but having to use adjacent pixels of color to approximate the correct one.

CyberPro

[The Saint]

Holy Crow Saint! I better schedule that laser eye surgery!:)


i haven't had a chance to really eyeball the photos but it was dogwood who asked what we saw that made me really scrutinize a few of the ones in the slide show.

of course there are digital artifacts on the blowups because the photos uploaded to the slide show weren't high resolution, so it is hard to know whether it truly was a shadow or something else, but it did look like blood splatter to me.

there are digital artifacts surrounding the videographer's hand and camera as seen on the shade, so the red spots might also be just artifacts.

[The Saint]

cyberpro. i'm on a mac and i used the Grab application to select each of the photos
in the slide show.

i then imported them into PhotoShop and blew them up and lightened the foyer photo.

there is a lot of digital noise but if you put your eyes very near the screen you can make out the pattern of dark red on the lampshade. it is just hard to be certain what it actually is or whether it is an optical illusion.

the new photoshop documents that i created were only 72dpi, low resolution

[The Saint]

:clap: No kidding hey? And what's even more "interesting" is that the husband of the woman who was murdered had an extra marital fling with the blogger's wife ..... and they're still best friends. (I don't care if it was his ex at the time either.) I think I'm getting a better picture of what these guys think about women.


"misery loves company."
both men were burned by heather m.

[sunflowers]

That means if it is the Charleston/Windsor we either have lost 84 sq. ft. somewhere or the tax records are off by 84 sq. ft., the latter happens a lot around here. Not sure how thorough they are in NC.

tax records are often off around here, too. the assessors usually don't go into the house, but measure from the outside....

[The Saint]

That's a lot of mess for a fly!

I do see the stain... I wonder if it means anything? Would he have been so careful but missed that? Would he not be under arrest now if that was NC's blood??


maybe brad just didn't see it because he was concentrating on getting rid of nancy's body,

the splatter is facing a certain direction that he may not have seen. there is a colorful painting or textile hanging that is to camera left of the lamp. maybe it pulls focus when you are walking inside the house. he may have left the house from the back and not seen it as the videographer sees it
from her vantage point.

it could have been a dumb mistake.

[jmflu]

I went back yout your original lightened up image that you posted, and used the Microsoft magnifier program. I could see it pretty well when I set it for 8X magnification, and I DO see it in the lighter image. I could not make it out at all on the darker one. If I set the magnifier at 9X magnification, the image gets too pixelated to tell for sure if I am seeing something that is really there, or an artifact from the attempts of the computer to accurately display colors, but having to use adjacent pixels of color to approximate the correct one.

CyberPro

I need to get to know you, CyberPro... pretty damn impressive!

[Roy23]

maybe brad just didn't see it because he was concentrating on getting rid of nancy's body,

the splatter is facing a certain direction that he may not have seen. there is a colorful painting or textile hanging that is to camera left of the lamp. maybe it pulls focus when you are walking inside the house. he may have left the house from the back and not seen it as the videographer sees it
from her vantage point.

it could have been a dumb mistake.


Huge kudos to you for recognizing that. No matter what it is.

[jmflu]

Huge kudos to you for recognizing that. No matter what it is.

Yes. I mean, YOU have an eye for DETAIL, my friend!!!

[raisincharlie]

Huge kudos to you for recognizing that. No matter what it is.

If the search warrants get released on September 2 and are released in full, perhaps we shall find out about that lamp shade. If there is blood on it, LE should have collected it as possible evidence - the inventory might answer the question. Impatiently waiting :)

[ncnative]

I don't remember if there is a Michael Petersen/Kathleen Petersen thread on Websleuths, so I'll ask here. If so, I'll go there. But--are they actually going to persue that "the owl did it" theory? I would think that the medical examiner in that case would be laughing hard enough to blow an aneurysm.

[raisincharlie]

I don't remember if there is a Michael Petersen/Kathleen Petersen thread on Websleuths, so I'll ask here. If so, I'll go there. But--are they actually going to persue that "the owl did it" theory? I would think that the medical examiner in that case would be laughing hard enough to blow an aneurysm.

I believe the forum for Petersen is most likely in the archive section. You might want to check the Crimes in the News thread or Up to the Minute sections to see if anyone is talking about it. If it comes about - a pursuit of the owl theory - it probably will be referenced in the Crimes in the News area. Should be interesting. :crazy:

[Henry7]

Just wanted to say hello - I have been reading here for some time and just registered so that I can post. It was great to meet several of you at Java Jive on Monday - this is a great group of people!

[CyberPro]

Just wanted to say hello - I have been reading here for some time and just registered so that I can post. It was great to meet several of you at Java Jive on Monday - this is a great group of people!

Hello Henry,

Yes, I rmember meeting you. I was going to recommend that you use Henry the 8th!

Welcome from Lurkerland.

CyberPro

[Topsail Girl]

Just wanted to say hello - I have been reading here for some time and just registered so that I can post. It was great to meet several of you at Java Jive on Monday - this is a great group of people!


Hey Henry!!! I'm so glad you decided to join us. It was great to see you at JJ on Monday and I'm so glad you had the courage to show up like that! I think you'll fit right in here.

[EntreNous]

Hello from Tennessee Henry! :wave:

[raisincharlie]

Hello Henry 7 :)

I will try to behave.

[Topsail Girl]

I missed the discussion from last night but went and read. I must say RC and The Saint have some great theories going on. I hope booradley comes back with an actual floor plan. Or maybe one of Nancy's friends will join us and give us the lay out.

[Topsail Girl]

Hello Henry 7 :)

I will try to behave.

I warned Henry about you already young man!!! :crazy:

[SleuthyGal]

Just wanted to say hello - I have been reading here for some time and just registered so that I can post. It was great to meet several of you at Java Jive on Monday - this is a great group of people!

Hey there Henry7! I recognize you! WELCOME! Glad you registered. :blowkiss:

[raisincharlie]

I missed the discussion from last night but went and read. I mist say RC and The Saint have some great theories going on. I hope booradley comes back with an actual floor plan. Or maybe one of Nancy's friends will join us and give us the lay out.

Not exactly a theory Top Sail - just a thought on the possibilities. I actually try to avoid theories of how something happened, have always found my imagination is very short of the reality.

[raisincharlie]

I warned Henry about you already young man!!! :crazy:

Good thing Top Sail - good thing. :crazy: Still brave enough to come over and visit - hmmmmm, better keep an eye on Henry 7 then .

[Topsail Girl]

Not exactly a theory Top Sail - just a thought on the possibilities. I actually try to avoid theories of how something happened, have always found my imagination is very short of the reality.

Well the possibility is a very good one. Still I want to know what is in those warrants and the COD. I hope those warrants are unsealed Sept 2nd!!

[jmflu]

Just wanted to say hello - I have been reading here for some time and just registered so that I can post. It was great to meet several of you at Java Jive on Monday - this is a great group of people!

I guess you and CyberPro were both gone by the time I got there. I'm sorry I missed getting to meet you! I did get to meet some others!

[raisincharlie]

Well the possibility is a very good one. Still I want to know what is in those warrants and the COD. I hope those warrants are unsealed Sept 2nd!!

Can only think of one reason why they would remain sealed - the progress hasn't been significant enough to avoid a problem with unsealing them. We shall see.

[Topsail Girl]

Can only think of one reason why they would remain sealed - the progress hasn't been significant enough to avoid a problem with unsealing them. We shall see.

It just stinks. I ahs become habit in Wake and Orage county to pull this "sealed" crap. I dont think N&O and WRAL want them unsealed if it will damage the case - it's more of them saying hey, you can't let this become habit here. The last time I recall a case having sealed warrants before Eve Carson was way back in Eric Miller's case. Now every high profile case around has suddenly gone to sealing the warrants. NNeka Wilson - a black woman who was murdered shortly after Michelle Young was in the news all of two days. It wasn't a high profile case (which BTW really upset me) thus no sealed warrants.

[raisincharlie]

I see from the news that NC is being somewhat hammered by the remains of Fay today - all of you stay safe and keep an ear open for weather warnings.

[jmflu]

It just stinks. I ahs become habit in Wake and Orage county to pull this "sealed" crap. I dont think N&O and WRAL want them unsealed if it will damage the case - it's more of them saying hey, you can't let this become habit here. The last time I recall a case having sealed warrants before Eve Carson was way back in Eric Miller's case. Now every high profile case around has suddenly gone to sealing the warrants. NNeka Wilson - a black woman who was murdered shortly after Michelle Young was in the news all of two days. It wasn't a high profile case (which BTW really upset me) thus no sealed warrants.

I can't think of any reason why a sealed warrant is a bad thing, though. But I can think of why it is a good thing. Maybe they are all going this route because it helps protect cases. So many perps are getting off on a technicality nowadays, this might be the way to go for a conviction!!!

[Topsail Girl]

I see from the news that NC is being somewhat hammered by the remains of Fay today - all of you stay safe and keep an ear open for weather warnings.

Absolutely RC I'm watching all the warnings. It was raining sideway earlier here!!!

[Topsail Girl]

I can't think of any reason why a sealed warrant is a bad thing, though. But I can think of why it is a good thing. Maybe they are all going this route because it helps protect cases. So many perps are getting off on a technicality nowadays, this might be the way to go for a conviction!!!

Agreed, and sealed warrants aren't a bad thing at all as long as it is to protect the integrity of the case and not just some habit the DAs have gotten in to. The public has the right to know and the media is tying to protect their rights to the information. As I said I don;t think WRAL & N&O are fighting this to damage the case - just trying to nip the habit of sealing everything in the bud.

[raisincharlie]

It just stinks. I ahs become habit in Wake and Orage county to pull this "sealed" crap. I dont think N&O and WRAL want them unsealed if it will damage the case - it's more of them saying hey, you can't let this become habit here. The last time I recall a case having sealed warrants before Eve Carson was way back in Eric Miller's case. Now every high profile case around has suddenly gone to sealing the warrants. NNeka Wilson - a black woman who was murdered shortly after Michelle Young was in the news all of two days. It wasn't a high profile case (which BTW really upset me) thus no sealed warrants.

I think that was part of Capitol Broadcastings point - it is becoming a habit. To a certain degree I understand it, but only to a point. I also think it could be handled differently - redact some things such as names and critical information would work. The thing about open warrants - you just never know when someone might read it and realize they know something, the loss of information with all this secracy is what alarms me most. In NC, the laws of discovery already weigh heavily toward a defendent - the same laws also to a degree handcuff LE. The use of the GJ, with no ability to force witnesses to testify before a GJ and actual transcripts made of that testimony also eliminates an extremely useful tool from a DA's arsenal. Not belittling NC - just noting the slant of the law in force.

[jmflu]

Not belittling NC - just noting the slant of the law in force.[/QUOTE]

North Carolina? Nancy Cooper? NCNative?? LOL

[Topsail Girl]

RC all those points are exactly what Sheriff Harrison was trying to get across on Monday at Nancy's memorial. He had a forum of "newbies" so to speak where it came to crime and crime scene investigations. I think he did a wonderful job explaining to the people the level of difficulty involved.

[jmflu]

Agreed, and sealed warrants aren't a bad thing at all as long as it is to protect the integrity of the case and not just some habit the DAs have gotten in to. The public has the right to know and the media is tying to protect their rights to the information. As I said I don;t think WRAL & N&O are fighting this to damage the case - just trying to nip the habit of sealing everything in the bud.


Bolding is mine.

I'm not sure why the public needs to know what was searched and why! And I certainly don't think the MEDIA is acting altruistically... they want to sell news stories!!! I don't think it's a bad habit to get into at all. I want to see more guilty people stop getting away with murder.

[Topsail Girl]

Not belittling NC - just noting the slant of the law in force.

North Carolina? Nancy Cooper? NCNative?? LOL[/quote]

LOL I'm sure he meant North Carolina and I'm quite sure you know that LOL - but that was funny :clap:

[raisincharlie]

Not belittling NC - just noting the slant of the law in force.

North Carolina? Nancy Cooper? NCNative?? LOL[/quote]


There are too many NC's aren't there? I was referencing North Carolina criminal laws and procedures - sorry.

[Topsail Girl]

Bolding is mine.

I'm not sure why the public needs to know what was searched and why! And I certainly don't think the MEDIA is acting altruistically... they want to sell news stories!!! I don't think it's a bad habit to get into at all. I want to see more guilty people stop getting away with murder.

If the PUBLIC is privy to the info they might be able to remember something they saw, some rumor they heard that could result in a CONVICTION. If the PUBLIC never gets that info due to a sealed warrant for months after - they might not remember anything. Or won't bother coming forward at such a late date. I know WRAL and N&O are in business but they are saying don't seal unless necessary. Let us in on it - we can help the public help law enforcement (possibly).

[raisincharlie]

Bolding is mine.

I'm not sure why the public needs to know what was searched and why! And I certainly don't think the MEDIA is acting altruistically... they want to sell news stories!!! I don't think it's a bad habit to get into at all. I want to see more guilty people stop getting away with murder.

Secracy is not the way to stop that. The only way to stop it is society itself gets a grip and comes to terms with it. When everything becomes secret - the public - some of whom may know something - stop caring if it isn't in the public eye. If it isn't in their face - they just carry on like nothing happened and they know nothing - that is pure bs IMO.

[Topsail Girl]

Secracy is not the way to stop that. The only way to stop it is society itself gets a grip and comes to terms with it. When everything becomes secret - the public - some of whom may know something - stop caring if it isn't in the public eye. If it isn't in their face - they just carry on like nothing happened and they know nothing - that is pure bs IMO.

What I was trying to say but you said it sooo much better

[Daphne69]

Found it! Here's the Charleston by St. Lawrence Homes floor plan as it was in 2002.

I'm new, so let me know if I link it incorrectly. :crazy:

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo159/daphne69_photos/Charleston_Elevation_II.jpg

[jmflu]

Can you give me an example where a warrant was unsealed and someone remembered something?

I think it's far more likely that the defense attorney will use the information to try to pain the picture that their client was treated unfairly, that the public's opinion hurt his case, etc.

[raisincharlie]

Found it! Here's the Charleston by St. Lawrence Homes floor plan as it was in 2002.

I'm new, so let me know if I link it incorrectly. :crazy:

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo159/daphne69_photos/Charleston_Elevation_II.jpg


Great job Daphne ! :clap:

Thanks ! :)

[Topsail Girl]

Can you give me an example where a warrant was unsealed and someone remembered something?

I think it's far more likely that the defense attorney will use the information to try to pain the picture that their client was treated unfairly, that the public's opinion hurt his case, etc.

That's why you would redact names, etc. and let it remain unsealed. No crying from defense attorney or public.

[Topsail Girl]

Great job Daphne ! :clap:

Thanks ! :)
Soooo is this THE ONE????

[raisincharlie]

Can you give me an example where a warrant was unsealed and someone remembered something?

I think it's far more likely that the defense attorney will use the information to try to pain the picture that their client was treated unfairly, that the public's opinion hurt his case, etc.


It's too late if it has been sealed - that is precisely the point. The door was slammed shut the minute it was done.

Defense attorney's always make that argument and that is why there are options to remedy it - change of venue - voir dire come to mind.

[DogWood]

Fantastic job, Daphne! Thank you!

Welcome Henry7!

[jmflu]

It's too late if it has been sealed - that is precisely the point. The door was slammed shut the minute it was done.

Defense attorney's always make that argument and that is why there are options to remedy it - change of venue - voir dire come to mind.


I realize I am a newbie at this so I hope you'll forgive my ignorance. I am willing to learn! Do you have an example, though, where someone was of assistance because the warrants were unsealed or left unsealed?

[raisincharlie]

Found it! Here's the Charleston by St. Lawrence Homes floor plan as it was in 2002.

I'm new, so let me know if I link it incorrectly. :crazy:

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo159/daphne69_photos/Charleston_Elevation_II.jpg


Would you consider posting this in the photos thread so we could have it for future reference ? It will come in handy I have no doubt.

[Daphne69]

Note to the floorplan: I checked 3 elevations (I was too lazy to keep searching for the fourth one), and this one seems to match the exterior photos of the Coopers' home best based on the bay window and garage.

[Topsail Girl]

I realize I am a newbie at this so I hope you'll forgive my ignorance. I am willing to learn! Do you have an example, though, where someone was of assistance because the warrants were unsealed or left unsealed?

I'll have to look around to make sure I have links to examples but NNeka Wilson would be one I can think of off the top of my head and I'm sure there are many more. Are you speficially asking for North Carolina or any place?

[Daphne69]

Would you consider posting this in the photos thread so we could have it for future reference ? It will come in handy I have no doubt.

Absolutely! I'll do it now. :online:

[raisincharlie]

I realize I am a newbie at this so I hope you'll forgive my ignorance. I am willing to learn! Do you have an example, though, where someone was of assistance because the warrants were unsealed or left unsealed?

No - I don't have a specific thing I could point you to where someone came forward after documents were made open after having been sealed for a period of time. Not saying it hasn't happened - I just don't know of a case where it did happen.

As to open warrants - the Pam Vitale case - a confidential informant came forward having seen information in the press and the warrants - this informant provided irrefutable proof in the case and pointed LE in an appropriate direction to discover and recover evidence. Of note - the warrant relating to this informant was sealed to protect his identity - I have no problem with that at all

[jmflu]

I'll have to look around to make sure I have links to examples but NNeka Wilson would be one I can think of off the top of my head and I'm sure there are many more. Are you speficially asking for North Carolina or any place?

I am not familiar with NNeka Wilson. Doesn't have to be in North Carolina, no... I am just looking for an example where one could explain how it helped in that case...

[jmflu]

As to open warrants - the Pam Vitale case - a confidential informant came forward having seen information in the press and the warrants - this informant provided irrefutable proof in the case and pointed LE in an appropriate direction to discover and recover evidence. Of note - the warrant relating to this informant was sealed to protect his identity - I have no problem with that at all


In other words, say with the third warrant, we don't know where that was for, although we think LTF. The public reads that LTF was the place and someone who goes there might realize, hey, I saw BC there the morning of, stuffing something in a locker that fell out and looked like it had blood on it... thought he had cut himself or something and didn't think anything of it...

[raisincharlie]

In other words, say with the third warrant, we don't know where that was for, although we think LTF. The public reads that LTF was the place and someone who goes there might realize, hey, I saw BC there the morning of, stuffing something in a locker that fell out and looked like it had blood on it... thought he had cut himself or something and didn't think anything of it...

Good example of how it may be helpful. It works the same as LE being out on the corner of Holly Springs Road and Carey Parkway 2 weeks after Nancy went missing - all they were doing was trying to reach anyone who may have saw something but for some reason was not aware or didn't realize they had information.

ETA - to protect integrity - the name of the person (Brad) could have been redacted so someone had to come up with their own name or description.

[jmflu]

Has anyone checked BC's website lately to see if he has been posting?

[raisincharlie]

Note to the floorplan: I checked 3 elevations (I was too lazy to keep searching for the fourth one), and this one seems to match the exterior photos of the Coopers' home best based on the bay window and garage.

This is great - I can now "walk through" the house. Awesome :)

[DogWood]

Dispatches From a Reporter's Notebook

Heavenly Birthday Wishes
By Amanda Lamb

http://www.wral.com/news/local/blogpost/3438943/

[reddress58]

Just got caught up from yesterday afternoon. Good eyes, Dogwood & Saint! Thanks for the cool Mac graphics with the pics, Saint. I love them...even if some may be off. It really helped to have that foyer lightened. Kudos to both booradley & Daphne for the floor plan info. And as always, RC, new food for thought. We have really made some progress here.

I want to reiterate, please do NOT trust Wake Co. square footage data. They do not consider items such as open foyers, etc. when determining sf figures. I've seen them off by over 1000sf in some cases. Very rarely are they dead on.

[jmflu]

Dispatches From a Reporter's Notebook

Heavenly Birthday Wishes
By Amanda Lamb

http://www.wral.com/news/local/blogpost/3438943/

Nice. NCN, don't get offended at this!
"This week to mark her birthday her friends and supporters planned a tribute to her at the local coffee shop, Java Jive. They decorated a wreath, hung pictures and balloons, and left a book for people to write notes to Cooper's family."

[reddress58]

Dispatches From a Reporter's Notebook

Heavenly Birthday Wishes
By Amanda Lamb

http://www.wral.com/news/local/blogpost/3438943/
Wow, she really sums it up for Nancy. I can't wait to read Amanda's book! I had no idea it existed until she brought it to our attention at JJ's. She, like our sheriff, truly has her heart in this case.

[jmflu]

Wow, she really sums it up for Nancy. I can't wait to read Amanda's book! I had no idea it existed until she brought it to our attention at JJ's. She, like our sheriff, truly has her heart in this case.

I agree, and am looking forward to reading it as well. For those who weren't there, her book is Deadly Dose.

[reddress58]

Over a banister then or down the stairs? Wonder if that would break some of the banister. I imagine it would have been a rather loud noise, possibly waking one or both children.

We really need to find out the COD otherwise we're going to pin this crime on Mrs. Mustard with the candlestick in the parlor.
Had to come back to this. You are TOO funny! Maybe if the SW's aren't unsealed on 9/2 we locals should have a Clue tournament to whittle away the time. :-)

[DogWood]

I can't wait to read her book either!

I know Nancy will be with her friends tonight at the concert.

I wish them all the best and hope they enjoy the time together tonight.

[SleuthyGal]

Had to come back to this. You are TOO funny! Maybe if the SW's aren't unsealed on 9/2 we locals should have a Clue tournament to whittle away the time. :-)

I was hoping you'd notice that! You know me: always having to find a place to sneak in some subtle humor. :wink:

[Topsail Girl]

I can't wait to read her book either!

I know Nancy will be with her friends tonight at the concert.

I wish them all the best and hope they enjoy the time together tonight.

I hope they do too and I sooo hope it doesn't rain out the show. We are supposed to have storms and rain off and on all night.

[DogWood]

I hope they do too and I sooo hope it doesn't rain out the show. We are supposed to have storms and rain off and on all night.

Oh, that would be awful!

It sounds like you guys need the rain but I sure hope it clears up long enough for this special night.

[Star12]

Actually, it was Col. Mustard. But with the new redesign of the gameboard, he has been replaced by a football player. No more lead pipe, no more revolver: it's now a pistol. And there is a baseball bat, an ax, and a trophy. Professor Plum is now a dot.com video game designer and billionaire. Miss Scarlett has a first name: Cassandra. Supposedly just released this month. So if ya'll have the older game, hang on to it. I used to love to play clue on a rainy day like this, in the garage with the door open. We'd have scads of kids reading comics, playing cards, monopoly, or clue. Life was sooooo good back then. (Waaaaay back then.)............how the heck did that happen? and when? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :eek:

[Topsail Girl]

Oh, that would be awful!

It sounds like you guys need the rain but I sure hope it clears up long enough for this special night.

We do need the rain but IMO we don't need it badly enough to ruin this special night.

[Star12]

I would be up for a clue tournament......

[Skittles]

Actually, it was Col. Mustard. But with the new redesign of the gameboard, he has been replaced by a football player. No more lead pipe, no more revolver: it's now a pistol. And there is a baseball bat, an ax, and a trophy. Professor Plum is now a dot.com video game designer and billionaire. Miss Scarlett has a first name: Cassandra. Supposedly just released this month. So if ya'll have the older game, hang on to it. I used to love to play clue on a rainy day like this, in the garage with the door open. We'd have scads of kids reading comics, playing cards, monopoly, or clue. Life was sooooo good back then. (Waaaaay back then.)............how the heck did that happen? and when? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :eek:

Oh, no! This is terrible news. Let me guess, the library has been replaced by a media room/home theater?

[reddress58]

Actually, it was Col. Mustard. But with the new redesign of the gameboard, he has been replaced by a football player. No more lead pipe, no more revolver: it's now a pistol. And there is a baseball bat, an ax, and a trophy. Professor Plum is now a dot.com video game designer and billionaire. Miss Scarlett has a first name: Cassandra. Supposedly just released this month. So if ya'll have the older game, hang on to it. I used to love to play clue on a rainy day like this, in the garage with the door open. We'd have scads of kids reading comics, playing cards, monopoly, or clue. Life was sooooo good back then. (Waaaaay back then.)............how the heck did that happen? and when? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :eek:
Oh, my. I have the same wonderful memories of board games. Clue, Yahtzee, Mononpoly...I loved the tournaments at the end of summer since there was nothing left to do. We'd keep them going for days. I just went and looked in the "game" closet. I have about everything BUT Clue. I never want to play the new one. I need to call my mom and make sure she hangs on to it if she has the old board.

[DogWood]

We do need the rain but IMO we don't need it badly enough to ruin this special night.

Keep us posted!

Is anyone from here going to the concert tonight?

I'd love to know if Nancy's friends are able to have 'Say' dedicated to her...:)

[stillblv]

Actually, it was Col. Mustard. But with the new redesign of the gameboard, he has been replaced by a football player. No more lead pipe, no more revolver: it's now a pistol. And there is a baseball bat, an ax, and a trophy. Professor Plum is now a dot.com video game designer and billionaire. Miss Scarlett has a first name: Cassandra. Supposedly just released this month. So if ya'll have the older game, hang on to it. I used to love to play clue on a rainy day like this, in the garage with the door open. We'd have scads of kids reading comics, playing cards, monopoly, or clue. Life was sooooo good back then. (Waaaaay back then.)............how the heck did that happen? and when? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :eek:

Does the football player resemble anyone we know? Who might have gotten off for killing his wife?

[2Daughters1Dog]

Good job - did they also combine two of th ebedrooms possibly ? The Avery is like 3100 square feet - Wakegov. org lists the Cooper house at near 2800 - such as a Georgetown. However a Georgetown has an open view to the breakfast area - in that respect this house more resembles a flipped Avery. Both are listed as having the laundry room upstairs.

For me the laundry room location is rather important - seeing as how someone bought milk at 6:20, came home and noticed there was no detergent and then ran back to the store at 6:30. Quick trip home with time to spare looking for laundry detergent.

sorry if this has been answered already, but...

1. this ain't the right floor plan.
2. the W/D is on the first floor. Where exactly I dunno. But there is a first floor utility room.

[jmflu]

Actually, it was Col. Mustard. But with the new redesign of the gameboard, he has been replaced by a football player. No more lead pipe, no more revolver: it's now a pistol. And there is a baseball bat, an ax, and a trophy. Professor Plum is now a dot.com video game designer and billionaire. Miss Scarlett has a first name: Cassandra. Supposedly just released this month. So if ya'll have the older game, hang on to it. I used to love to play clue on a rainy day like this, in the garage with the door open. We'd have scads of kids reading com