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View Full Version : Zodiac's Identity Finally Discovered? Man Turns Hood/Weapon into FBI



gaia227
08-29-2008, 03:48 PM
This was on the news today

http://cbs5.com/national/zodiac.killer.kaufman.2.806089.html

SteveHuff
08-29-2008, 03:57 PM
As far as I know, Denis Kaufman turned Jack Tarrance's prints into the San Francisco PD two years ago, and they didn't match the prints in the Zodiac file. I am extremely skeptical.

miles_draken
08-29-2008, 03:59 PM
WOW

Just saw this on Yahoo news. Incredible if this is infact the actual hood worn by Zodiac. The man in question, Jack Torrance, deceased, does look like the composite and the hand writing from what I saw looks close. Could this be actually true? I have never heard this name associated as a suspect in the crimes before, has anyone else??

Bluebel
08-29-2008, 04:04 PM
I'm extremely skeptical as well - Kaufman has been making this claim for years. He's always struck me as being, um, unhinged.

But, hey, if it turns out to be true, I suppose Kaufman had a really good reason for coming across as an obsessive fruitloop.

kittykat1
08-29-2008, 04:41 PM
Very intriguing. I know nothing about the ZK, but this information seems credible to me. Something new to research, anyway!

shadowangel
08-29-2008, 04:49 PM
It's a little too close on the heels of the latest Bigfoot hoax for me.
It's been rumored that the Zodiac kept 'memories' of his crimes in a little metal box. I noticed Kaufman has one of those now.
However, all the film he showed is fairly recent---disposable cameras didn't hit the market until 1986. Is he claiming that Torrance has been killing all this time?

tapu
08-29-2008, 05:32 PM
It's a little too close on the heels of the latest Bigfoot hoax for me.
It's been rumored that the Zodiac kept 'memories' of his crimes in a little metal box. I noticed Kaufman has one of those now.
However, all the film he showed is fairly recent---disposable cameras didn't hit the market until 1986. Is he claiming that Torrance has been killing all this time?

That IS what the Zodiac said he would do--kill but without claiming credit for the crimes.

arielilane
08-29-2008, 06:32 PM
I can't wait to hear more! It's about time to uncover the Z killer.

arielilane
08-29-2008, 06:33 PM
This is what AMW posted on 2/23/2007 about Jack Tarrance.

http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=1542

http://media.amw.com/multimedia/fileRepository/db/472/141/terrance_jack_horiz.jpgView Larger (http://media.amw.com/multimedia/fileRepository/db/472/141/terrance_jack_enlarge.jpg)Name: Jack Tarrance
1928 - 2006
Occupations: Honorable discharge from US Air Force; Navy; Ham Radio operator; Steele company worker; General Electric test foreman; Laundry attendant.
Jack Tarrance is not a name often associated with the Zodiac murders. In fact, he was not even considered a suspect until the summer of 2000, when his stepson, Dennis Kaufman, watched a Zodiac Killer documentary. Dennis became convinced that Jack Tarrance is the Zodiac. His research has produced some intriguing and complex clues.

CanManEh
08-29-2008, 11:35 PM
I watched one og the links of him showing some of the stuff and i font know he came across pretty credible to me....I d0 think though that in our minds we almost do not ever want this case to be solved he was so infamous that i think its much easier and makes for a better story when it was never knowen ho had done it and i think thats a big reason some people are skepticle..J,M,O

kline
08-31-2008, 03:30 AM
This isnt going to amount to much.
I beleive this same guy was trying to sell a piece of what he said was paul Stine's bloody shirt on Ebay.

txsvicki
08-31-2008, 03:34 AM
I was reading somewhere last night that he also found an old knife that could possibly have dried blood on it, had old photos developed that show dead people, closely matching handwriting samples, and he believes his stepfather smothered his mother. Kaufman does match the sketch pretty well.

Bluebel
08-31-2008, 06:57 AM
So far there's not even credible evidence that the handwriting samples he presents are from Tarrance. Kaufman has tried to sell pieces of "Stine's shirt" and for a while, his website claimed Tarrance was the Texarkana Phantom as well, but I can't provide a link to prove it.

Bear in mind that Kaufman's now pushing a movie.

And yeah, I DO want the Zodiac case solved. Murderers shouldn't be legendary, they should be captured - or at least identified.

kline
08-31-2008, 07:55 AM
I was reading somewhere last night that he also found an old knife that could possibly have dried blood on it, had old photos developed that show dead people, closely matching handwriting samples, and he believes his stepfather smothered his mother. Kaufman does match the sketch pretty well.
Yeah,except look at any college yearbook from 1969 I guarantee youll find 30 guys who match the composite perfectly.
That look was kind of the equivlant of having a composite today of a white guy between 25 and 45 with a shaved head and a goatee.
In my town you would see 20 guys like that before you got three blocks down mainstreet.
There are a few very compelling suspects,but this fellow is a fraud.
Hes liable to get in trouble if he keeps doing things like messing with the FBI.

Missouri Mule
08-31-2008, 10:39 AM
As far as I know, Denis Kaufman turned Jack Tarrance's prints into the San Francisco PD two years ago, and they didn't match the prints in the Zodiac file. I am extremely skeptical.

To my knowledge there are no known, verified prints or DNA that can be said to definitively be that of Zodiac.

Anyone can correct me if they are wrong, but I believe it is correct to say that the only verified, provable link to the real Zodiac are to be found at the Lake murder. Before Cynthia Shepard passed away she described the individual, his height and weight and was established to be approximately 6 feet tall and weight between 220 and 250 pounds. She actually saw his face. She told this to Officer Collins who arrived there and was comforting her prior to the arrival of the ambulance which had to traverse a winding road to the site where she lay dying (about 1 hour). At the roadside where she and her boyfriend (still living) parked their car were some bootprints identified as "Wingwalker" type boots; size 10 1/2. Through comparison of a deputy at the scene it was established that the individual weighted in excess of 230 pounds. To my knowledge this is the ONLY proof of who Zodiac was. Who met those physical dimensions and who was in the area at the time of this murder and all of the other known Zodiac murders (there were only six verified murders)? Such an individual died in 1992.

He was never tied to any of the murders through DNA nor fingerprints. Conversely, it could not be said, contrary to assertions, that any DNA or fingerprints from any scenes exonerated him simply because there was no provable chain of custody; such as the DNA recovered from beneath the stamps, for example. No one has ever been tied to any of those DNA or fingerprints. There are no DNA or fingerprints on file that can be said to be definitely that of Zodiac.

The only thing that will ever tie anyone to Zodiac is something that only he could have in his possession that came from one of the crime scenes. That, to this time, has never materialized.

Missouri Mule
08-31-2008, 10:46 AM
WOW

Just saw this on Yahoo news. Incredible if this is infact the actual hood worn by Zodiac. The man in question, Jack Torrance, deceased, does look like the composite and the hand writing from what I saw looks close. Could this be actually true? I have never heard this name associated as a suspect in the crimes before, has anyone else??

I've looked at this guy very closely and do not rule him out completely. His physical dimensions do match that of Zodiac. There are other interesting aspects of his character. There are only three individuals who I would seriously consider as being Zodiac. They are this one, Allen and another individual whose physical proportions and weight do not match the Lake crime. Nonetheless, based on other evidence I have seen, I would not rule him out. In my opinion, Zodiac died in 1992. But then again, who knows? Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

There is one interesting aspect of Tarrance that bears mentioning. In the Lake murder, Zodiac mentioned the state prison of Deer Lodge, Montana. I have attributed that to his lame attempt at deflecting the investigation. If I recall correctly, Tarrance does have some connections or made mention of Montana. Probably no more than a coincidence but interesting, nonetheless.

Obviously the alleged hood is of great interest.

MeoW333
08-31-2008, 10:54 AM
It's interesting, i'll believe more when the Feds are done testing the items.

Malapoo
08-31-2008, 06:32 PM
There was a finger print in the Paul Stine cab I think? But they don't know absolutely that it was Zodiac's correct? I would love to see the case solved just so he wouldn't "get away with it". Even if the guy is dead, it would be a semblance of closure.

I leaned toward Allen but then some claim alot of what Graysmith wrote in both books was slanted heavily toward what he believed and some things flat out fabricated.

I think in his 2nd book there's a brief post note that the Lake Berryessa survivor saw and identified Allen as the man who attacked them and then there are statements saying Ferrin's sister and friends identified Tarrance as the man harrassing her? Of course someone stalking you won't necessarily mean he killed her.

The frustrating part is you can read arguments in favor of various suspects and they sound very convincing. I believed with all my heart it WAS Allen, but now I tend to be skeptical. If the son's arguments and "facts" were really all true, it would be hard to disagree with his step dad's guilt.

And it could be more then one killer with one claiming kills that weren't "his". The high school students' murder is very similar to Ferrin/Ferraday but the Lake murder is very different. Though I would say the letter writer is certainly the Ferrin killer since that letter was most detailed about specific actions so the killer had to write it. But the other murders aren't detailed as specifically so it would be possible to claim them without being there. And of course Stine was done by the Ferrin killer if all the letters had the same author beacause of the bloody shirt.

Fascinating but very frustrating case.

Missouri Mule
08-31-2008, 08:17 PM
There was a finger print in the Paul Stine cab I think? But they don't know absolutely that it was Zodiac's correct? I would love to see the case solved just so he wouldn't "get away with it". Even if the guy is dead, it would be a semblance of closure.

I leaned toward Allen but then some claim alot of what Graysmith wrote in both books was slanted heavily toward what he believed and some things flat out fabricated.

I think in his 2nd book there's a brief post note that the Lake Berryessa survivor saw and identified Allen as the man who attacked them and then there are statements saying Ferrin's sister and friends identified Tarrance as the man harrassing her? Of course someone stalking you won't necessarily mean he killed her.

The frustrating part is you can read arguments in favor of various suspects and they sound very convincing. I believed with all my heart it WAS Allen, but now I tend to be skeptical. If the son's arguments and "facts" were really all true, it would be hard to disagree with his step dad's guilt.

And it could be more then one killer with one claiming kills that weren't "his". The high school students' murder is very similar to Ferrin/Ferraday but the Lake murder is very different. Though I would say the letter writer is certainly the Ferrin killer since that letter was most detailed about specific actions so the killer had to write it. But the other murders aren't detailed as specifically so it would be possible to claim them without being there. And of course Stine was done by the Ferrin killer if all the letters had the same author beacause of the bloody shirt.

Fascinating but very frustrating case.

The fingerprint in Stine's cab was always believed to be unreliable in that they didn't know how or who put it there. Unless it can be traced to a specific person it doesn't really prove much.

Some of the witnesses are not reliable including family members. In the "Director's Cut" there are extended discussions with principles that shed a good deal about what took place. I was very impressed with Officer Collins who ministered to Cynthia Shepard as she was lying near death. I was also impressed with the detective who investigated Stine's murder. He also cast considerable doubt on one of the patrolman's recollection. One of the most strange interviews was with the responding officer to Ferrin's murder. But the individual interviewed who claimed that Allen approached him to perform mob hits was certainly a smoking gun if it could be established as true.

There is also one very interesting account of a young woman who was a student of Allen's who moved to Wisconsin. And she writes home to say she saw him in Wisconsin. If that is true, it certainly is most interesting.

I can't discount this new revelation if it proves out but until I see something that seems more definitive, I'll continue to believe that Allen was Zodiac. I believe it is correct to say that most long time investigators believed Zodiac was Allen. Unfortunately for the investigation he dropped dead from the effects of diabetes and heart disease when he was but 58 years old. I believe an indictment was in the process at the time. At the end of his life he pleaded with a reporter to believe he was not the Zodiac. It would have been more helpful if he had tried to take the time to work with the investigators instead of taunting them. The only suspect who ever contacted Toschi was Allen when he got out of prison on the sex deviency charges. There were no Zodiac letters during his imprisonment. As an aside, Allen had a near genius IQ, but an abject failure in life and a complete bust as to possible romantic relationships.

Indianagirl
08-31-2008, 08:32 PM
The fingerprint in Stine's cab was always believed to be unreliable in that they didn't know how or who put it there. Unless it can be traced to a specific person it doesn't really prove much.

Some of the witnesses are not reliable including family members. In the "Director's Cut" there are extended discussions with principles that shed a good deal about what took place. I was very impressed with Officer Collins who ministered to Cynthia Shepard as she was lying near death. I was also impressed with the detective who investigated Stine's murder. He also cast considerable doubt on one of the patrolman's recollection. One of the most strange interviews was with the responding officer to Ferrin's murder. But the individual interviewed who claimed that Allen approached him to perform mob hits was certainly a smoking gun if it could be established as true.

There is also one very interesting account of a young woman who was a student of Allen's who moved to Wisconsin. And she writes home to say she saw him in Wisconsin. If that is true, it certainly is most interesting.

I can't discount this new revelation if it proves out but until I see something that seems more definitive, I'll continue to believe that Allen was Zodiac. I believe it is correct to say that most long time investigators believed Zodiac was Allen. Unfortunately for the investigation he dropped dead from the effects of diabetes and heart disease when he was but 58 years old. I believe an indictment was in the process at the time. At the end of his life he pleaded with a reporter to believe he was not the Zodiac. It would have been more helpful if he had tried to take the time to work with the investigators instead of taunting them. The only suspect who ever contacted Toschi was Allen when he got out of prison on the sex deviency charges. There were no Zodiac letters during his imprisonment. As an aside, Allen had a near genius IQ, but an abject failure in life and a complete bust as to possible romantic relationships.

So if Allen is the zodiac, how do you explain his DNA not matching the stamp on the envelope that Zodiac sent? Do you think he had someone else stamp it for him? I guess that would make sense.

Missouri Mule
08-31-2008, 08:54 PM
So if Allen is the zodiac, how do you explain his DNA not matching the stamp on the envelope that Zodiac sent? Do you think he had someone else stamp it for him? I guess that would make sense.

I've tried to explain this before. We don't know how or what found its way under the stamp. I can think of a very easy way to do this. Just go along any city sidewalk and clean up spittle and take it back to his residence and wring it out into a jar and then freeze it. When the stamps are mailed, simply moisten the stamps with this substance.

Briefly stated, since there is no chain of custody, the DNA is worthless UNLESS it can be traced definitively to another person. It is at that point that person is reeled in to do some 'splaining. Until that person is found means nothing.

Indianagirl
08-31-2008, 10:27 PM
I've tried to explain this before. We don't know how or what found its way under the stamp. I can think of a very easy way to do this. Just go along any city sidewalk and clean up spittle and take it back to his residence and wring it out into a jar and then freeze it. When the stamps are mailed, simply moisten the stamps with this substance.

Briefly stated, since there is no chain of custody, the DNA is worthless UNLESS it can be traced definitively to another person. It is at that point that person is reeled in to do some 'splaining. Until that person is found means nothing.

Thanks for your answer. I've never really followed this case, but I do remember watching a show a few years back, that had identified 3 suspects as the zodiac and they did testing on all of the suspects. DNA from the stamps couldn't be "connected" to any of those 3. I'm guessing Allen was probably one of the persons I saw on that show. I do hope they solve this case. Hopefully we will get answers soon!

txsvicki
09-01-2008, 03:16 AM
So far there's not even credible evidence that the handwriting samples he presents are from Tarrance. Kaufman has tried to sell pieces of "Stine's shirt" and for a while, his website claimed Tarrance was the Texarkana Phantom as well, but I can't provide a link to prove it.

Bear in mind that Kaufman's now pushing a movie.

And yeah, I DO want the Zodiac case solved. Murderers shouldn't be legendary, they should be captured - or at least identified.


Yes, I did a search last night and read that he tried to sell Tom Voigt a piece of the shirt. The Zodiac and the Original Night Stalker are two cases that definitely need to be solved.

kline
09-01-2008, 03:55 AM
I think Tom Voight's current POI has a lot more going as a likely suspect then Tarrence ,I dont think his step son has any credibilty after the Stine Shirt nonsense.
Thats part of the problem California in the late 60's early 70's was a very weird place with lots of very weird people running around .
It kind of makes for a legion of suspicious characters that one might consider as suspects.
And the composite is so generic ...from what ive seen its almost if you were a guy, werent a longhair back then you probably looked like that.
I think Allen was a very bent character who seemed to enjoy the notoriety of being under suspicion at least for awhile.
Perhaps it was better to be percieved as a dangerous character like Zodiac then the pedophile that he was.

arielilane
09-01-2008, 11:32 AM
I cannot stress enough how much I am waiting to hear the results of the testing on the items, specifically the hooded outfit and the knife!!!

I think Allen was already ruled out due to DNA not a match. I am leaning toward some creditability that the Zodiac killer may have been JT. This case reminds me of BKT, although I think Zodiac is dead.

txsvicki
09-02-2008, 01:39 AM
Tarrance was supposedly placed in all locations at the times of the murders. There was something said about him being from Lubbock, Tx. and older people here saying the term "fiddle and fart around". I'm from Lubbock, so I'd like to know more about this connection to Zodiac. I can only read the archives at T.V.'s site since he now charges a fee.

kline
09-02-2008, 02:28 AM
Tarrance was supposedly placed in all locations at the times of the murders. There was something said about him being from Lubbock, Tx. and older people here saying the term "fiddle and fart around". I'm from Lubbock, so I'd like to know more about this connection to Zodiac. I can only read the archives at T.V.'s site since he now charges a fee.
Tarrance was placed at Lake Berryessa and Lake Herman RD. and the Presidio at the times of each of those murders??
By who?

Missouri Mule
09-02-2008, 11:39 AM
I cannot stress enough how much I am waiting to hear the results of the testing on the items, specifically the hooded outfit and the knife!!!

I think Allen was already ruled out due to DNA not a match. I am leaning toward some creditability that the Zodiac killer may have been JT. This case reminds me of BKT, although I think Zodiac is dead.

Allen was not ruled out as Zodiac. There were never any verified DNA or fingerprints from the known Zodiac. Since any DNA such as beneath the stamps could not be identified to ANYONE they are worthless as evidence.

CanManEh
09-02-2008, 11:54 AM
yes he was ruled out watch bill curtis A&E trust me he was ruled out by dna and hand writing.

Bluebel
09-02-2008, 12:21 PM
There were never any verified DNA or fingerprints from the known Zodiac.

QFE. No one has been ruled out as being Zodiac; they've been ruled out as matching the Stine print or the stamp DNA. That's it.

Cymro
09-02-2008, 12:24 PM
Well the DNA isn't Allen's. Of course that doesn't rule him out - there could be contamination, someone other than Zodiac could have licked the stamps - but the fact is that the tests certainly didn't rule him in any more than anyone else.

Personally I think Allen was a charlatan who wanted attention and to be known as something other than an inadequate child molester. Of course he was weird but he's too far away from the composite, the Don Cheney story is too neat, and a lot of the circumstantial coincidences point to someone who took Zodiac as a role model to play up his role, or were invented by Graysmith.

Now if the DNA on the stamps matches Tarrance or Gaikowski or Elvis - someone who isn't a cop, a mailman or an associate of a known suspect - then I will be pretty certain that they've found him because that would be too big a coincidence to explain away.

As for Tarrance - if the new evidence is genuine then yes, it's him. And if the gorilla suit in an icebox was genuine, they'd have found Bigfoot.

Bluebel
09-02-2008, 12:32 PM
Yeah, I entertain myself by having it both ways - NO match to the DNA doesn't mean much to me, but a match would mean a whole lot. Heheh.

Cymro
09-02-2008, 12:37 PM
Bluebel - I don't know if you're agreeing with me or being sarcastic; what we have is DNA that is quite likely to be Zodiac's (impossible to put a percentage on it of course) given where it was found but which could be unrelated. However if it turned out to belong to someone who had another connection to the case then either they would have had to handle a Zodiac artefact independently or have been involved in the hoaxing of one. Neither of those possibilities seems more likely than an individual, who has been identified for other reasons, actually being the killer.

LI_Mom
09-02-2008, 12:42 PM
I always leaned towards Allen also.

As far as the dna on the stamp, I wonder if that got there simply from people handling the stamp BEFORE it was in Allen's possession..... even though this was before dna testing, I think Zodiac would have moistened the stamp with water & gloved hands to avoid leaving prints.



From Kaufman's website:

http://thezodiackiller.digitalzones.com/

IMPORTANT UPDATE!

August 30, 2008

My good friend, Robert Manor and I, Dennis Kaufman have completed a one hour documentary titled "ZODIAC THE UNTOLD STORY." The documentary will soon be available to order for $24.95, which includes shipping and handling.

Bluebel
09-02-2008, 12:54 PM
I don't know if you're agreeing with me or being sarcastic

I was both agreeing with you and being self-deprecating. :)

LI_Mom - yeah, that's the video I referenced a few posts back. He actually posted the "Aug 30" update back on Aug 28; I bet he was initially told that his interview would be broadcast on Aug 30.

Vask
09-02-2008, 01:30 PM
Ed_neil
Username: Ed_neil

Registered: 5-2006

Posted on Friday, November 24, 2006 - 2:17 pm:
Dennis Kaufman is a conman, nothing more. He has some sort of axe to grind with his stepdad, which is why he's accusing him of being Z. The first clue that he's full of it is the fact that he tried to sell a piece of what he claimed was Stine's shirt to Tom for $50,000; I've seen the e-mail, and Kaufman has spent the last several years denying that fact. It only goes to show that he's trying to make money on this but otherwise has no interest in the case; the fact that he wanted to sell a phony piece of Stine's shirt instead of turning it over to the authorities speaks volumes.

The second clue is his baseless claim that his stepdad murdered his mother; I have a copy of her death certificate, and it shows that she died at the UC Davis Medical Center of cardio respiratory arrest due to anoxic brain injury due to respiratory failure due to autoimmune cholangitis. In other words, she died of natural causes due to the rare disease she had. True, she was only 50 years old, but people can die of natural causes at any age.

Dennis Kaufman is not to be taken seriously. Law enforcement obviously doesn't, or they would have arrested Jack Tarrance for the Zodiac murders years ago.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/27/786.html

Missouri Mule
09-02-2008, 05:21 PM
Well the DNA isn't Allen's. Of course that doesn't rule him out - there could be contamination, someone other than Zodiac could have licked the stamps - but the fact is that the tests certainly didn't rule him in any more than anyone else.

Personally I think Allen was a charlatan who wanted attention and to be known as something other than an inadequate child molester. Of course he was weird but he's too far away from the composite, the Don Cheney story is too neat, and a lot of the circumstantial coincidences point to someone who took Zodiac as a role model to play up his role, or were invented by Graysmith.

Now if the DNA on the stamps matches Tarrance or Gaikowski or Elvis - someone who isn't a cop, a mailman or an associate of a known suspect - then I will be pretty certain that they've found him because that would be too big a coincidence to explain away.

As for Tarrance - if the new evidence is genuine then yes, it's him. And if the gorilla suit in an icebox was genuine, they'd have found Bigfoot.

I agree completely that the recovered DNA beneath the stamps is not Allen's but that doesn't establish anything unless the DNA can be traced to another human being. So far as I know, it was moistened by the collection of human spittle and put into a refrigerator to be used as necessary.

I worked with DNA for about 10 years or so. The common way was to swab the inside of a person's mouth and put it into a tamper proof plastic wrapper that if disturbed would invalidate the sample. The simple remedy was simply to get another sample.

In the situation of the stamp, we have no idea, nor any means to establish a chain of custody. Unless we can trace that DNA to another human being; living or dead, the DNA is completely and totally worthless.

Allen is not exonerated and if anyone claims otherwise they are badly mistaken.

The known facts are that Allen could never be eliminated as the prime suspect in any of these murders. If that were true, then he would have been marked off the list a long time ago.

Unless someone shows me someone who meets the physical characteristics of the positive ID, footprint and description at the Lake murder that comes anywhere close to Allen, I conclude that he was in fact Zodiac.

And I would also add, that to my knowledge, not a single other individual was ever seriously considered by any of the police investigators to have been involved with these crimes. Only Allen.

Mr. E
09-02-2008, 05:49 PM
What about the roll of film that he supposedly found that supposedly had pictures of grisly murders on them? He said he had turned those in to the FBI? That seems like at least something, even if it's not evidence of Zodiac.

Dr. Doogie
09-02-2008, 05:50 PM
Jack Tarrance is not the Zodiac. Dennis Kaufman is a well-known fraud in Zodiac circles.

The only reason that this is being discussed is because some teleprompter-reading hottie who masquerades as a "reporter" at Sacramento's CBS13 was conned by Dennis into falling for his long-ago dismissed fable.

Doesn't anyone find it curious that Dennis "found" the hood and knife just as his "documentary" is finished and is offered for sale? Hmmm??? :rolleyes:

LillyRush
09-03-2008, 01:08 AM
I don't think I have ever heard of this guy before...But, if he is widely known to be a fraud in the Zodiac "community", then why is the FBI bothering to test the items? I guess they can never be too careful and have to check out all possibilities. Still, though...it seems like a waste of money if they are aware of his history of possibly making up stories.

As far as the film goes, it looked like Kodak film roll containers not instant cameras. But, regardless, if those are pictures of dead bodies where did they come from? Even if they are not connected to the Zodiac, they could possibly solve other crimes. Who knows, maybe Kaufman himself is a killer.

BTW, Missouri Mule, thanks for recommending the "Director's Cut" (on another thread) of the recent Downey/Gyllenhaal Zodiac film. I checked it out this summer and it was much, much more interesting than another version that I rented by mistake with Vince Vaughan in it.

Missouri Mule
09-03-2008, 01:31 AM
I don't think I have ever heard of this guy before...But, if he is widely known to be a fraud in the Zodiac "community", then why is the FBI bothering to test the items? I guess they can never be too careful and have to check out all possibilities. Still, though...it seems like a waste of money if they are aware of his history of possibly making up stories.

As far as the film goes, it looked like Kodak film roll containers not instant cameras. But, regardless, if those are pictures of dead bodies where did they come from? Even if they are not connected to the Zodiac, they could possibly solve other crimes. Who knows, maybe Kaufman himself is a killer.

BTW, Missouri Mule, thanks for recommending the "Director's Cut" (on another thread) of the recent Downey/Gyllenhaal Zodiac film. I checked it out this summer and it was much, much more interesting than another version that I rented by mistake with Vince Vaughan in it.

Thank you for your kind words.

I would offer a note of caution. Concerning the "Zodiac Community" I would refer to most as "Zodiac Cultists" which is the way that a former long time police officer put to me. I say that as one who attempted without success to get across the point that the DNA without a proper chain of custody and without tracing what was found to another specific individual as totally and completely worthless.

I would suggest that anything that is said on some of these sites and most would know what I am referring to with a huge grain of salt. If someone who is not an expert on DNA doesn't recognize the imperative nature of proper DNA testing they will never understand why merely having DNA in and of itself means nothing unless it can be traced to another person or is used to eliminate someone who by virtue of their lack of DNA at a site such as a rape can positively be shown not to have committed the crime. In the case of the DNA under the stamp, no one was ever connected to that particular DNA nor is there any known Zodiac DNA or fingerprints on file anywhere.

As to Tarrance, I am keeping an open mind for now. I am highly doubtful although he does fit the height and weight of the subject known to be at the Lake murder. If the survivor could look at the mask and positively ID it as being on the subject, I would be much more inclined to believe it might be him. He still survives and is a practicing attorney and remembers the circumstances well.

CanManEh
09-03-2008, 01:49 AM
I think its him...

arielilane
09-03-2008, 01:27 PM
The last SFPD investigators of the case were Homicide Detail Inspectors Michael N. Maloney and Kelly Carroll. They were the first to submit DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA) evidence from Zodiac's letters for analysis, which resulted in a partial genetic profile. DNA testing seems to have conclusively ruled out their lead suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Leigh_Allen).[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_zodiac_killer#cite_note-58)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_zodiac_killer

arielilane
09-03-2008, 01:32 PM
I am reading many interesting comments here. Thank you for the links as well.
Recently, I read Zodiac used glue on his fingertips to avoid leaving any fingerprints

Missouri Mule
09-03-2008, 01:57 PM
The last SFPD investigators of the case were Homicide Detail Inspectors Michael N. Maloney and Kelly Carroll. They were the first to submit DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA) evidence from Zodiac's letters for analysis, which resulted in a partial genetic profile. DNA testing seems to have conclusively ruled out their lead suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Leigh_Allen).[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_zodiac_killer#cite_note-58)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_zodiac_killer

The DNA test could only have ruled him in. It could not be said to have scientifically ruled him out.

Likewise, if the DNA found under the stamps would match Tarrance it would rule him in. But if it didn't match it would not rule him out either.

This is quite easy to understand. Since there is no chain of custody of the DNA material and there is no way to know how it came to be under the stamps it is entirely without scientific foundation to say he was ruled out. It would violate all the protocols of DNA testing to take an unknown sample of DNA and say that because it didn't match the only serious Zodiac suspect it somehow eliminated him. That DNA could have gotten there any number of other ways. Match the DNA to a person; dead or alive, and then go from there. The DNA has not been matched to anyone and there is no DNA or fingerprints that can be said to be definitively that of Zodiac anywhere. If there were, which there isn't, then what might be said about the DNA under the stamps was that it wasn't Allen's but we have no way under the sun to say if he didn't have someone working with him who could have provided that DNA either knowingly or unknowingly. Allen is known to have had a dislike for licking stamps.

Tricia
09-03-2008, 02:15 PM
How would the DNA testing have ruled out Allen?

My guess is none of the markers in the partial DNA strand matched Allen's DNA.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong but with a partial DNA strand it can only eliminate donors not match them. I think.

In the JonBenet case they only have a very small partial strand of DNA that they use to check against people. This DNA can only rule people out because it is so limited in nature. It has only a few markers as opposed to the many markers needed to make an identification.

Look at it like this, if you only had a partial finger print then the owner of that print would match the partial but so could other people. But, if none of the partial swirls or circles match a person's fingerprint then you know that person did not leave the print.

Thanks for letting me pop in here. Had to get a way a bit from the Caylee forum. It's going nuts.

Can you imagne if we had discussion forums during the Zodiac days? Now that would have been wild.

Tricia

Anubis
09-03-2008, 02:40 PM
Please someone correct me if I am wrong but with a partial DNA strand it can only eliminate donors not match them. I think.




You are correct. Partial DNA samples will eliminate possible donors, not match them.

Dr. Doogie
09-03-2008, 03:49 PM
Can you imagne if we had discussion forums during the Zodiac days? Now that would have been wild.

It has been 40 years since Zodiac was active and the discussions STILL can be pretty wild. On various sites across the internet, people are attempting to prove that Zodiac was (1) Ted Kazynski, (2) Bruce Davis of the Manson Family, (3) Gareth Penn (an early amatuer researcher of the Zodiac killings) and (4) Mr. X (an unnamed well-known San Francisco businessman). Tarrance is but yet another in a long list of improbable suspects- probably the most improbable that I have seen.

Missouri Mule
09-03-2008, 06:11 PM
I hate to jump in so quickly but it is necessary.

I stipulate that none of the DNA or fingerprint(s) match Allen. (Partial or complete)

Since no one knows how the DNA or fingerprint(s) can be known to have been placed there by Zodiac, how is it possible to conclude that Allen was exonerated?

Perhaps I am missing something here. Maybe I am just dense. Can someone explain to me how one can be exonerated from a source that can't be traced to another individual?

Note: The fingerprint at the Stine murder has long been speculated on and the predominent view, so far as I know, was that no one knew how the print came to be there so it was discounted as reliable.

Since the DNA under the stamps cannot be said conclusively to have come from Zodiac, how could anyone be exonerated? No one was there to testify when and how the stamps were moistened. That is what I have been trying to get across. A friend or even a complete stranger could have licked the stamps. We simply don't know. It is known that Allen was known not to have liked to lick stamps. It seems logical to conclude that that being the case it is more likely than not that someone else licked those stamps other than Allen or as I have suggested, he collected spittle from any number of sources, saved to the refrigerator to be used at the time he would be mailing his many letters. DNA was discovered in 1953 Allen was acknowledged to be highly intelligent with a genius IQ and would have known that and could and probably did account for the possibility it would be a way to track him if he left any of his own DNA at any of the crime scenes. If I recall correctly he had a thorough working knowledge of chemicals and makeup.

What would be interesting to know was whether or not all of the many letters written as "Zodiac" and as "Citizen" (identified to be from Zodiac) all had the same DNA profile. If that could be done, it might be possible to pin down the source to a single source. That would argue that Allen must have had a reliable friend to lick the stamps, or used the same source to draw the moisture from to apply to the stamps. Or, alternatively, it might point to an entirely different person. And to my knowledge the list of winnowed down suspects numbered only about six individuals with Allen topping the list. There was no time in any of these murders where he could be placed outside the immediate crime scenes that I have any knowledge.

kline
09-04-2008, 02:26 PM
I believe that SFPD has been using the Stine fingerprint to rule out suspects for quite some time.
Aside from that everything Ed Niel said about this individual is true.
Nothing is going to come of this.
As far as Zodiac Cultist go keep in mind this is an incredibly complex case.
Tom Voights site is has a wealth of material pertaining to the case.
I would advise anyone interested to familiarise themselves thoroughly with the evidence and documentation and developments regarding suspects over the last 40 years before jumping to conclusions.
It will give you alot more perspective when it comes to dealing with frauds like the one playing out now.

chicoliving
09-11-2008, 01:53 PM
~snip~

Here's the twist: The trailer park where Jack Tarrance once lived is now the location of the local FBI headquarters. FBI agents who could ultimately prove or disprove Tarrance's connection to the Zodiac now work at the same place he once lived.

http://cbs13.com/local/fbi.zodiac.twist.2.814709.html

Missouri Mule
09-11-2008, 02:34 PM
I believe that SFPD has been using the Stine fingerprint to rule out suspects for quite some time.
Aside from that everything Ed Niel said about this individual is true.
Nothing is going to come of this.
As far as Zodiac Cultist go keep in mind this is an incredibly complex case.
Tom Voights site is has a wealth of material pertaining to the case.
I would advise anyone interested to familiarise themselves thoroughly with the evidence and documentation and developments regarding suspects over the last 40 years before jumping to conclusions.
It will give you alot more perspective when it comes to dealing with frauds like the one playing out now.

If the SFPD is using the Stine fingerprint to rule out anyone I would suggest they get into another line of work. No one knows where that fingerprint came from. It could have come from a cadaver for all we know.

As to that other site and those who believe they have a monopoly on knowledge surrounding this case I would suggest that they take a long walk, clear out the cobwebs, get away from this case and then return to it with an open mind. The ONLY things we truly know about Zodiac (at the current time) is that Zodiac was approximately 6 feet tall and weighed in excess of 230 pounds and wore wingwalker boots from the Lake murder. The deceased victim and the live survivor both provided very credible information. And the ONLY suspect who met all of the criteria and could never be eliminated was dead of a heart attack 16 years ago.

For the life of me I don't understand why anyone would believe that any DNA or fingerprints obtained from any of the crime scenes could be used to eliminate any suspects. They could rule someone in as a POSSIBLE suspect but could not scientifically rule someone out because there is no chain of custody. There is no way to establish when and how such evidence came to be there.

Having said this, Tarrance is an intriguing suspect because he does meet the physical description and has an interesting history. I suspect, however, that nothing will come of this inquiry.

arielilane
09-11-2008, 08:03 PM
~snip~

Here's the twist: The trailer park where Jack Tarrance once lived is now the location of the local FBI headquarters. FBI agents who could ultimately prove or disprove Tarrance's connection to the Zodiac now work at the same place he once lived.

http://cbs13.com/local/fbi.zodiac.twist.2.814709.html OMG! Thank you chicoliving for posting this. What a strange twist indeed.:eek:

tbthow
09-11-2008, 08:23 PM
:eek: Wow this is interesting..

kline
09-12-2008, 08:51 AM
If the SFPD is using the Stine fingerprint to rule out anyone I would suggest they get into another line of work. No one knows where that fingerprint came from. It could have come from a cadaver for all we know.

As to that other site and those who believe they have a monopoly on knowledge surrounding this case I would suggest that they take a long walk, clear out the cobwebs, get away from this case and then return to it with an open mind. The ONLY things we truly know about Zodiac (at the current time) is that Zodiac was approximately 6 feet tall and weighed in excess of 230 pounds and wore wingwalker boots from the Lake murder. The deceased victim and the live survivor both provided very credible information. And the ONLY suspect who met all of the criteria and could never be eliminated was dead of a heart attack 16 years ago.

For the life of me I don't understand why anyone would believe that any DNA or fingerprints obtained from any of the crime scenes could be used to eliminate any suspects. They could rule someone in as a POSSIBLE suspect but could not scientifically rule someone out because there is no chain of custody. There is no way to establish when and how such evidence came to be there.

Having said this, Tarrance is an intriguing suspect because he does meet the physical description and has an interesting history. I suspect, however, that nothing will come of this inquiry.
Oh yeah,I would have to agree on that point.
there has been some fierce arguing about how much or if the Stine scene was contaminated by LE and or bystanders but I dont see how they could conclusively determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that print belonged to Zodiac.
Im also not knocked out by the dna removed from the back of the stamps being used to rule out suspects.Many would disagree with me though.
As far as Tarance thats one of the things about this case there are a multitude of weirdos from that time and place we could concieve being Zodiac.
Barring a miracle I dont think this case will ever be conclusivly solved.
I would be thrilled to be proven wrong.

kline
09-12-2008, 01:08 PM
You know when I think of the Zodiac case Im reminded of something Donald Rumblowe said about the Ripper suspects.
Like Zodiac Jack the Ripperologists have about six or seven top suspects each with their own fiercly partisan following of 'experts' who are certain their suspect is the Ripper.
To Paraphrase:On the day of Judgement when all things will be known and all questions answered and the Zodiac experts ask for Zodiac to step forward and name himself they are all going to look at each other in bewilderment and say:"Who???!!...."

wedavis
09-14-2008, 12:49 AM
I've tried to explain this before. We don't know how or what found its way under the stamp. I can think of a very easy way to do this. Just go along any city sidewalk and clean up spittle and take it back to his residence and wring it out into a jar and then freeze it. When the stamps are mailed, simply moisten the stamps with this substance.

Briefly stated, since there is no chain of custody, the DNA is worthless UNLESS it can be traced definitively to another person. It is at that point that person is reeled in to do some 'splaining. Until that person is found means nothing.

Why would the Zodiac feel the need to cover his tracks like that decades before DNA testing was "invented"?

PattyCake
09-14-2008, 01:03 AM
Oh yeah,I would have to agree on that point.
there has been some fierce arguing about how much or if the Stine scene was contaminated by LE and or bystanders but I dont see how they could conclusively determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that print belonged to Zodiac.
Im also not knocked out by the dna removed from the back of the stamps being used to rule out suspects.Many would disagree with me though.
As far as Tarance thats one of the things about this case there are a multitude of weirdos from that time and place we could concieve being Zodiac.
Barring a miracle I dont think this case will ever be conclusivly solved.
I would be thrilled to be proven wrong.

People thought that of BTK. Hoping that Zodiac is still alive and in one final curtain call need to contact the media!!!
Have no idea whether it's this guy but crossing fingers it'll be resolved before the next decade.

Missouri Mule
09-14-2008, 01:05 PM
Why would the Zodiac feel the need to cover his tracks like that decades before DNA testing was "invented"?

DNA was known of as far back as 1953. The Zodiac murders began in the late 1960s. Since DNA is a unique marker it would not have required much imagination to realize the potential of keeping the DNA from the crime scenes.

Whoever Zodiac was, it is obvious this was no ordinary criminal. He went to great lengths to throw the investigation off on trails leading nowhere. I don't see any point in all the emphasis in the ciphers. It certainly took up a lot of time of various people but it solved nothing to break the code. And the handprinting was smart in that handprinting versus handwriting can be easily misinterpreted as coming from any number of people while handwriting is extremely difficult to disguise. Then of course we know that the primary suspect was ambidextrious and if I recall correctly had an extremely high IQ and was involved in chemical analysis or related field.

The fingerprints and DNA from the crime scenes, are in my view, totally worthless unless they can be traced to a specific individual. The ONLY clues to the identity are to be found at the lake murder which due to the unfortunate circumstances where Cynthia Shepard essentially bled out but nonetheless allowed the first responding officer to go over carefully with her and subsequently the survivor to arrive at the approximate height and weight of Zodiac. We have the identification of the boot print as being a wingwalker, size 10.5 and with a comparison of the deputy it was determined the weight of Zodiac as being in excess of 230 pounds. All of the other alleged evidence proves nothing at all.

The circumstantial case is overwhelming in my opinion. I've seen nothing to persuades me that it could be anyone else except the only serious suspect of this case and certainly there is nothing to eliminate him as a suspect.

PattyCake
09-18-2008, 11:46 PM
http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.dna.tests.2.820165.html

results are 'odd' state FBI. Doesn't discount him as the Zodiac nor does it completely confirm him either.

further tests are being conducted. personally I think it's quite exciting that he wasn't excluded. maybe our man?

Missouri Mule
09-19-2008, 01:07 AM
http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.dna.tests.2.820165.html

results are 'odd' state FBI. Doesn't discount him as the Zodiac nor does it completely confirm him either.

further tests are being conducted. personally I think it's quite exciting that he wasn't excluded. maybe our man?

If I read the article correctly, two people licked the envelope. Since we don't know who these two people are, at this point in any event, then the theory I have advanced for some time may be that Zodiac collected specimens of spittle in order to provide such results. DNA was discovered about 1953 and the Zodiac murders began about 1969.

But it certainly is interesting regardless. Tarrance had a mysterious past and his physical description and weight does meet the known individual at the Lake murders, the only true evidence in the Zodiac murders.

Could be. Can't be ruled out.

badhorsie
09-19-2008, 05:29 AM
OMG! Thank you chicoliving for posting this. What a strange twist indeed.:eek:


Completely off topic, sorry BUT I am not familiar with this case and will have to read about it but wasn't Jack Torrance the character Jack Nicholson played in "The Shining" ?
Probably got it wrong knowing me:confused::)

arielilane
09-19-2008, 08:45 PM
Completely off topic, sorry BUT I am not familiar with this case and will have to read about it but wasn't Jack Torrance the character Jack Nicholson played in "The Shining" ?
Probably got it wrong knowing me:confused::) Hi badhorsie! I am not sure about the Jack Torrance character played by Jack Nicholson in The Shining, but Jack Tarrance is who we are speaking of on this thread. Read up and join in, if you will. It is captivating and this case is long overdue as to who the Zodiac was!


Will the real zodiac please stand up....LOL

arielilane
09-19-2008, 08:48 PM
http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.dna.tests.2.820165.html

results are 'odd' state FBI. Doesn't discount him as the Zodiac nor does it completely confirm him either.

further tests are being conducted. personally I think it's quite exciting that he wasn't excluded. maybe our man? Thank you, PattyCake for posting!

W:eek:W! Time will tell...

from link-
The FBI has received results in the first round of DNA tests that could link a local man's stepfather to the infamous Zodiac Killer. The tests did not conclude that Jack Tarrance is the Zodiac Killer, but they did not eliminate him as a suspect.

shadowangel
09-19-2008, 09:02 PM
If (and in my opinion it's still a big if) the Zodiac was responsible for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates...Then it seems to me that the watch recovered from the scene would be as good or better a source of DNA than the letters.
I've read articles that state hair and skin were found under Cheri Jo's nails...But I'm not sure that is confirmed.

tbthow
09-19-2008, 10:26 PM
I cannot stress enough how much I am waiting to hear the results of the testing on the items, specifically the hooded outfit and the knife!!!

I think Allen was already ruled out due to DNA not a match. I am leaning toward some creditability that the Zodiac killer may have been JT. This case reminds me of BKT, although I think Zodiac is dead.

You and me both. I grew up in Wichita Kansas I heard all about BTK. Knowing what I know now I believe BTK was a copycat in a lot of ways. I remember my cousin calling me at work saying they had BTK, I was like "No way!" they ambushed another innocent man I bet. I was SOOO glad to see he was caught. My family had horried dreams and would check our houses every day if we came home alone. My mom was Shirley's babysitter. :(

kline
09-20-2008, 03:10 AM
If (and in my opinion it's still a big if) the Zodiac was responsible for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates...Then it seems to me that the watch recovered from the scene would be as good or better a source of DNA than the letters.
I've read articles that state hair and skin were found under Cheri Jo's nails...But I'm not sure that is confirmed.
LOL I so go back and forth about whether Zodiac is responsible for Cheri Joe...I think it would depend on what day of the week someone asked me what I thought.
Same with suspect Arthur Allen Leigh.

Malapoo
09-20-2008, 07:08 AM
I go back and forth too. Plus, did he suddenly stop and why? If he stopped, where were all the various suspects after "the end" and would any of those circumstances explain the stop. Or did he keep killing but in a more "routine style" that just wasn't connected. Generally experts feel a killer doesn't just suddenly stop killing - they die or go to jail or move away and new crimes aren't linked due to distance. But BTK did stop for a LONG time, so we know some can.

And for all we know, some day the case could be solved and be no one previously connected! Frustrating because this is one I would like solved.

Missouri Mule
09-20-2008, 02:10 PM
I go back and forth too. Plus, did he suddenly stop and why? If he stopped, where were all the various suspects after "the end" and would any of those circumstances explain the stop. Or did he keep killing but in a more "routine style" that just wasn't connected. Generally experts feel a killer doesn't just suddenly stop killing - they die or go to jail or move away and new crimes aren't linked due to distance. But BTK did stop for a LONG time, so we know some can.

And for all we know, some day the case could be solved and be no one previously connected! Frustrating because this is one I would like solved.

Something to chew on.

To my knowledge not a single murder occurred after Allen was confronted at his place of employment.

I would suggest that is why no further documented murders took place.

Serial murderers also have a tendency to "burn out" over time.

I do not personally believe that Rader had anything whatever to do with Zodiac.

Something else to chew on. I've always found this article intriguing. An excerpt:

"After Allen was dismissed, Gwen's family left town when the school year ended in June, and moved to Wisconsin where Michaels began corresponding with her. Michaels said she remembers one letter from Gwen in particular that shocked her. "She wrote me and said, "you'll never believe who I saw here. I saw Mr. Allen," It was so weird and I remember being afraid for her."...

(Snip)

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LD2.html

SweetDreamOfYou
09-20-2008, 04:29 PM
ok not a lot i can add here but a reminder how the world has changed. when i was a little girl if we didn't have a stamp laying around to mail a letter we simply taped or paperclipped a coin to the letter and threw it in the nearest mail box. the letters always arrived so one has to assume the mailman licked a stamp and put it on the letter.
lol ok now i have admitted how old i am i will leave u to ur discussion.

Cagney
09-20-2008, 04:43 PM
I've tried to explain this before. We don't know how or what found its way under the stamp. I can think of a very easy way to do this. Just go along any city sidewalk and clean up spittle and take it back to his residence and wring it out into a jar and then freeze it. When the stamps are mailed, simply moisten the stamps with this substance.

Briefly stated, since there is no chain of custody, the DNA is worthless UNLESS it can be traced definitively to another person. It is at that point that person is reeled in to do some 'splaining. Until that person is found means nothing.

Given that back when these crimes took place, DNA evidence was not known or even heard of- I would find it very unlikely that someone back then would walk down the street to simply collect spittle to moisten stamps with.

Missouri Mule
09-20-2008, 05:18 PM
Given that back when these crimes took place, DNA evidence was not known or even heard of- I would find it very unlikely that someone back then would walk down the street to simply collect spittle to moisten stamps with.

DNA was discovered in 1953.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do53dn.html

It would be reasonable to conclude that Allen with his occupational background would have had reason to be concerned about leaving anything behind that could tie him to the crimes. Obviously if his DNA were found under the stamps it would be a prima facia case since he was and is the only serious suspect of this case. He was most likely to be indicted when he dropped dead of a heart attack at age 58. No investigator who actually worked the case ever believed it was anyone except Allen.

"At 11:30 am, Mulanax made a phone call to Allen's employer, Union Oil in Pinole, California, and arranged an interview at the refinery where the suspect worked as a junior chemist. Mulanax then notified Armstrong and Toschi."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/do53dn.html

kline
09-21-2008, 03:08 AM
As far as I know Toschi is still convinced Zodiac was ALA.

Malapoo
09-21-2008, 08:04 AM
You could always hand someone some mail asking them to drop it off for you. They may notice you didn't seal one, and back in those days, wouldn't necessarily think anything of sealing it for you.

Missouri Mule
09-21-2008, 02:15 PM
As far as I know Toschi is still convinced Zodiac was ALA.

So far as I know, no investigator on the case believes it was anyone other than Allen. There was one investigator after the fact who believed he proved it was another person but he never actually worked the case as an active investigator and didn't have access to the police files.

One thing that is often missed was that the jurisdiction of the cases overlapped and there was never a coordinated effort to nail Zodiac. The right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing. And there is reason to believe that Zodiac knew how to game the system to gum up the works. By all accounts Allen had an extraordinarily high IQ but a complete failure in life and never had any success with women. He despised his own mother although he lived in her house. He was a dysfunctional human being by all accounts and a convicted sexual predator. And he was the only one who ever directly communicated with Toschi after release from prison. He couldn't leave it alone but at the end of his life pleaded not to be identified as Zodiac although he never did anything to disabuse the investigators he wasn't Zodiac when it would have mattered.

So far as I know, there is not a single piece of evidence, real or circumstantial, that would exonerate Allen. Although many would believe that he wasn't and was somehow exonerated through the stamp DNA, which I regard as laughable, a cottage industry has sprung up with a new suspect every other day. These "cultists" as one former police officer put it to me have no other life so they keep at it. This will likely never end no matter how long it takes. Zodiac will go into the crime annals as another Jack the Ripper, Judge Crater or Jimmy Hoffa crime.

For those who have the time, there is literally a mountain of on-line information available to the public involving police records and the like. Also the "Director's Cut" of Zodiac has a wealth of new information that helps to further cement the overwhelming circumstantial case against Allen. While it can't be proven to an absolute certainty, I believe if such a case were presented to a jury, the case would be decided on the base beyond a "reasonable doubt." In my view there is no "reasonable doubt" as to Allen's guilt. He was in my opinion Zodiac. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Had he lived and gone to trial, I believe he would ultimately have cut a deal and admitted to being Zodiac which never happened due to his early death from diabetes and heart disease. He was nearly blind and on disability at the end of his life and dropped over dead at only age 58. He was a failed human being both to himself and to his probable victims. He was gifted with a high IQ but never put that to good use which is a shame. He could have amounted to something but squandered it for reasons that defy understanding. We will never know. He never lived to tell us.

Missouri Mule
09-21-2008, 02:16 PM
You could always hand someone some mail asking them to drop it off for you. They may notice you didn't seal one, and back in those days, wouldn't necessarily think anything of sealing it for you.

Possible. What is needed is to identify the source of that DNA. Until that is done, it is useless.

kline
09-22-2008, 03:55 AM
Possible. What is needed is to identify the source of that DNA. Until that is done, it is useless.
Apparenty the people who were doing the DNA analysis never got to pursue and finish much of the work and follow up they wanted to do on the case because the project was essentialy shut down becasue certain brass in the SFPD were resentful over the publicity they were recieving and it became somewhat of a poltical p*ssing match.
The upshot is that as far as I know no research at all is being done on the case in that area.

Johnjaypl
09-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts about Bob Tarbox (the Zodiac's lawyer)?

Missouri Mule
09-24-2008, 07:01 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts about Bob Tarbox (the Zodiac's lawyer)?

I think he is a crank. In any event he only claims that someone who said he was Zodiac came to his office and Tarbox only revealed this conversation out of respect to his late law partner or some such reason. The retainer of sorts was like $50. There are always a lot of people who are false confessors who for some reason for another do these things. Even if the individual were found unless that person could actually be tied to the crimes there would be no case. Recall what happened with the matter of the Jon Benet Ramsey case. That fizzled on the vine.

When Tarbox first surfaced with his advertisement that I believe cost him some $1,200 virtually everyone went crazy with anticipation of where this would lead. In the end it was yet another dead end of frustration.

Johnjaypl
09-25-2008, 08:54 AM
Tarbox only revealed this conversation out of respect to his late law partner or some such reason.

As I understand it, he revealed his Zodiac contact in an effort to inform the Allen family that Art Allen was not the Zodiac.

He said his legal constraints still remian but his personal constraints to his former law partner and his law partners wife ended with their death. As far as I can tell, the law partners wife did die a short time before Tarbox took out his add.


I think he is a crank.

Why do you think that?

I don't know much about Tarbox but I haven't seen much that would make me not believe what he says. That being, some guy, who Tarbox thought was a plausible Zodiac suspect, bought some legal advice about "legal jeopardy based on the facts provided."

I also read that the Zodiac told Tarbox that he was going to stop killing, which he seems to have done.

Missouri Mule
09-25-2008, 04:18 PM
As I understand it, he revealed his Zodiac contact in an effort to inform the Allen family that Art Allen was not the Zodiac.

He said his legal constraints still remian but his personal constraints to his former law partner and his law partners wife ended with their death. As far as I can tell, the law partners wife did die a short time before Tarbox took out his add.

Why do you think that?

I don't know much about Tarbox but I haven't seen much that would make me not believe what he says. That being, some guy, who Tarbox thought was a plausible Zodiac suspect, bought some legal advice about "legal jeopardy based on the facts provided."

I also read that the Zodiac told Tarbox that he was going to stop killing, which he seems to have done.

If Tarbox actually knew something worth knowing he should have revealed it long ago. I realize there is this thing called client/attorney privilege but to come forth some 35 years later with a story that has no supporting information except his word and the claim he was paid a small retainer years ago does not provide me much in the way of credibility. Additionally, when this first came to light this was discussed all over the internet with trying to find out whether he even existed and where he currently lived. In the end, and to my knowledge, everyone who had looked at the case concluded this was his "15 minutes of fame" and that was all it was.

I can't imagine why he would be concerned about the "Allen family." So far as I know his parents are long deceased and at least some of his family by marriage believed that Allen was up to his eyeballs in some striking unusual activity. You could read the accounts in Graysmith's books which speak to this subject. Who is even alive among the Allen family that cares about Allen's reputation? I'm unaware of them.

I'm not a lawyer but how does the death of his law partner and wife release him from this allegedly confidential conversation? Since Allen is long deceased and this other individual, presumably is known by Tarbox he could ascertain if the other person still survives and if deceased that confidentiality should end at that time since there is no way to cause personal harm to this individual. I don't believe a deceased person has the rights and privileges of a living person. The least Tarbox should do is to tell us whether or not this person is still living. This link discusses this issue more in depth and provides the same conclusions I arrived at. I merely googled "zodiac tarbox" and this came up.

http://aztectalk3.proboards88.com/index.cgi?board=off&action=print&thread=21993

Johnjaypl
10-01-2008, 01:59 PM
If Tarbox actually knew something worth knowing he should have revealed it long ago.

I agree. I think he should have turned him in as soon as Zodiac left his office.
Legal ethics are important, stopping a madman is more important. It's a question of good judgement and Tarbox doesn't have it- as far as I'm concerned.

However, I suspect a lot of folks would say he did the proper thing. They would say that the legal system would break down if lawyers started turning in their clients. They may be right.


I realize there is this thing called client/attorney privilege but to come forth some 35 years later with a story that has no supporting information except his word and the claim he was paid a small retainer years ago does not provide me much in the way of credibility.

The only Tarbox credibility we have is:

Tarbox was a lawyer at the right place and time.

Tarbox had connections with Vallejo and San Francisco

Tarbox said Z was a Merchant Marine. A Merchant Marine could have taken a cipher training course and the Army cipher folks said they thought the person who wrote the code was probably trained by them. A merchant marine could also have connections with Vallejo and the Presido and all the other military tid bits.

Tarbox's partners wife did die a few months before he took out his add.

Now Tarbox didn't say much, but the few things he did say seem credible to me.


Additionally, when this first came to light this was discussed all over the internet with trying to find out whether he even existed and where he currently lived

Tarbox told people where he lived. He was a real person, not hard to find. From the description of an interview he gave to one person he seemed credible when talked to in the flesh.


In the end, and to my knowledge, everyone who had looked at the case concluded this was his "15 minutes of fame" and that was all it was.

While I've read some comments like this I haven't read any credible reasons to conclude that Tarbox is the kind of man who would do this as a "stunt". And if he was he could have milked it for a lot more "minutes of fame" then he got. I think some of these folks should be more worried about their credibility than Tarbox's credibility.


I can't imagine why he would be concerned about the "Allen family." So far as I know his parents are long deceased and at least some of his family by marriage believed that Allen was up to his eyeballs in some striking unusual activity. You could read the accounts in Graysmith's books which speak to this subject. Who is even alive among the Allen family that cares about Allen's reputation? I'm unaware of them.

I don't know who's left in Vallejo that Tarbox was trying to reach. I wonder if there was a specific person, or persons. Maybe Tarbox was really talking about himself when he said in his add "I perceived this confession to be of a cathartic nature." Maybe Tarbox just needed to get if off his chest.


I'm not a lawyer but how does the death of his law partner and wife release him from this allegedly confidential conversation?

Tarbox explains this about as clearly as it can be explained. "I have been under both legal and personal constraints with regard to this matter. The legal constraints still remain, but the personal constraints were severed by the death of my law partner and recent death of his wife."

I think Tarbox doesn't think that he violated his legal constraints with the add. It sounds to me like he told his partner and his partners wife about his new client and they agreed not to release this information. I can't imagine how any of them went back to work in the same building. I gather that they didn't for long.


this other individual, presumably is known by Tarbox he could ascertain if the other person still survives and if deceased that confidentiality should end at that time since there is no way to cause personal harm to this individual. I don't believe a deceased person has the rights and privileges of a living person. The least Tarbox should do is to tell us whether or not this person is still living.

He could do what you say but he just doesn't seem to think that way. Maybe he still thinks of himself as a defense lawyer, his job being to keep his clients out of jail. Maybe he thinks it's someone elses job to catch Z. Like I said at the beginning of this, I think Tarbox's judgement is really wrong about this but I"m sure there are other who think he was doing what a lawyer is supposed to do.

If Tarbox's information is correct, then all of the suspects that you read about on the internet are not the Zodiac.

nursebeeme
10-01-2008, 03:20 PM
If anything.....this is very interesting.....and cannot wait to hear the dna results.

PattyCake
10-01-2008, 04:18 PM
If anything.....this is very interesting.....and cannot wait to hear the dna results.

Hi. DNA results did come in and it could not rule him out. They are doing further tests so see what can come of it.

Missouri Mule
10-01-2008, 05:26 PM
I agree. I think he should have turned him in as soon as Zodiac left his office.

Legal ethics are important, stopping a madman is more important. It's a question of good judgement and Tarbox doesn't have it- as far as I'm concerned.

However, I suspect a lot of folks would say he did the proper thing. They would say that the legal system would break down if lawyers started turning in their clients. They may be right.

The only Tarbox credibility we have is:

Tarbox was a lawyer at the right place and time.

Tarbox had connections with Vallejo and San Francisco

Tarbox said Z was a Merchant Marine. A Merchant Marine could have taken a cipher training course and the Army cipher folks said they thought the person who wrote the code was probably trained by them. A merchant marine could also have connections with Vallejo and the Presido and all the other military tid bits.

Tarbox's partners wife did die a few months before he took out his add.

Now Tarbox didn't say much, but the few things he did say seem credible to me.

Tarbox told people where he lived. He was a real person, not hard to find. From the description of an interview he gave to one person he seemed credible when talked to in the flesh.

While I've read some comments like this I haven't read any credible reasons to conclude that Tarbox is the kind of man who would do this as a "stunt". And if he was he could have milked it for a lot more "minutes of fame" then he got. I think some of these folks should be more worried about their credibility than Tarbox's credibility.

I don't know who's left in Vallejo that Tarbox was trying to reach. I wonder if there was a specific person, or persons. Maybe Tarbox was really talking about himself when he said in his add "I perceived this confession to be of a cathartic nature." Maybe Tarbox just needed to get if off his chest.

Tarbox explains this about as clearly as it can be explained. "I have been under both legal and personal constraints with regard to this matter. The legal constraints still remain, but the personal constraints were severed by the death of my law partner and recent death of his wife."

I think Tarbox doesn't think that he violated his legal constraints with the add. It sounds to me like he told his partner and his partners wife about his new client and they agreed not to release this information. I can't imagine how any of them went back to work in the same building. I gather that they didn't for long.

He could do what you say but he just doesn't seem to think that way. Maybe he still thinks of himself as a defense lawyer, his job being to keep his clients out of jail. Maybe he thinks it's someone elses job to catch Z. Like I said at the beginning of this, I think Tarbox's judgment is really wrong about this but I"m sure there are other who think he was doing what a lawyer is supposed to do.

If Tarbox's information is correct, then all of the suspects that you read about on the internet are not the Zodiac.

I would think that everything would rest on whether or not the individual in Tarbox's office was actually Zodiac. How would Tarbox know that? That Tarbox is a real person is not in question. His location and even he was interviewed shortly after the advertisement was placed. But beyond the fact the he "believes" that this person was in fact Zodiac, I don't know how it has any relevance. One could spend months reading just on the internet about what various individuals believe is true about Zodiac. There is a virtual industry built of cultists who keep this story alive.

I am 99.99999% certain that Allen was Zodic. There is not merely a mountain of evidence he was Zodiac. There is an entire mountain range of circumstantial evidence that he was Zodiac. To my knowledge, there is not a single investigator who actually worked the case who believes it was anyone else. Certainly there is not even so much as a shred of evidence exonerating him. The DNA, not knowing who and where it came from is of no value whatever unless it could be traced to a known individual. The repetition of those who obviously have some vested interest in promoting the idea it wasn't Allen keep pointing at the DNA and saying it exonerates him. Having worked with DNA and knowing how it is to be handled, any evidence of this nature from any of the crime scenes is completely and absolutely worthless unless it can be connected with a known individual.

If anyone wants to produce anything that would disprove my contention that it was Allen, they are welcome to do so. To my knowledge, the only known proof of who Zodiac was are to be found only at the Lake murder. The weight, height and description of Zodiac was obtained by two highly reliable witnesses; one who died and one who survives. Zodiac was in excess of 230 pounds and approximately 6 feet tall, wore "wingwalker" boots and had a size 10.5 size. Allen fits that description in all respects. Finally, at no time could Allen be placed outside the areas where any of the known, proven Zodiac murders took place. Therefore, there is no definitive way to eliminate him as a suspect but there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence. To sum up, I believe the case is dead until and unless reliable evidence and witnesses produce a viable suspect. And I don't see that happening. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Johnjaypl
10-05-2008, 02:40 PM
That Tarbox is a real person is not in question. His location and even he was interviewed shortly after the advertisement was placed.

I agree. It's just that when people make comments like:


Additionally, when this first came to light this was discussed all over the internet with trying to find out whether he even existed and where he currently lived.

you have to pick them apart and show them for what they are worth.


I would think that everything would rest on whether or not the individual in Tarbox's office was actually Zodiac.

I agree. I'll get back to this in a bit.


One could spend months reading just on the internet about what various individuals believe is true about Zodiac. There is a virtual industry built of cultists who keep this story alive.

Sad but true. The key word here is "industry". There are a lot of people who are trying to, and in some cases sucessfully, making money on the zodiac story. They try to make up for their lack of proof by adding up a lot of small circumstantial evidence which never amounted to enough to make an arrest. While these folks try to make money from this tragedy, recklessly accusing anyone they think they can get away with accusing without getting sued, Tarbox spent his money to tell his story.


I am 99.99999% certain that Allen was Zodic.

It seems to me that folks like you are the reason Tarbox came forward.


If anyone wants to produce anything that would disprove my contention that it was Allen, they are welcome to do so.

Fortunately, we live in society where that's not the way it works.

Getting back to:


I would think that everything would rest on whether or not the individual in Tarbox's office was actually Zodiac. How would Tarbox know that?

I don't think he could be certain that he was visited by Z, and we have to rely on Tarbox's judgment to decide how credible his story is. We know Tarbox was a criminal attorney, I imagine he had a better sense of this kind of judgment than the average person would. He talked to Z for a couple of hours about details of the crime. It's hard for me to imagine that a run of the mill nut off the street could convince Tarbox that they were guilty. And then there's the whole question of why would they even want to. Of course it's easy to make up reasons. Maybe someone wanted to play a joke on Tarbox. Maybe they wanted to settle a score by having someone scare the s out of him. Or maybe it was Z, trying to turn his life around, as Tarbox seems to believe. Maybe someday Tarbox will release the name of his Z and maybe then we'll find out more- until then we just don't know.

I would be interested in learning more about Tarbox though. What did he do with his life after practicing law in CA?

SeekingJana
10-05-2008, 05:35 PM
ok not a lot i can add here but a reminder how the world has changed. when i was a little girl if we didn't have a stamp laying around to mail a letter we simply taped or paperclipped a coin to the letter and threw it in the nearest mail box. the letters always arrived so one has to assume the mailman licked a stamp and put it on the letter.
lol ok now i have admitted how old i am i will leave u to ur discussion.

We know Zodiac was a weird bird, no matter what. Maybe, ordinarily, he had a social phobia.. Was a loner, was a failure, did live in a boarding house or other less than sterling housing conditions despite his intellect.

It seems very possible to me that the letter could definitely be authentic, yet the DNA not match any suspect, learning of this " leave the money for postage" thing. I am now vaguely remembering similar episodes with our mailman from my childhood.
If you had 10 cents or whatever for the stamp, the postman would take the money and put the stamp on the letter for you. I believe my mother taped coins on letters at times.. I guess the USPS would put the stamps on in those cases? I was a child, so forgive me for not knowing what they did, exactly. Maybe just put the cancelled stamp on the envelope and sent it on its way to delivery?

Why has this not been discussed or considered before now? I think it is immensely possible. I think it answers the question of why no DNA match on the stamp better than anything I have read prior. It resonates with me as being authentic. I also think that for the over- 40 crowd, it would make enormous sense as to why ALA's DNA was not even a partial match on the stamp.

Don't even suggest that they look for the mailmen on the route!! NO WAY!! :) I know how your collective minds work. :blowkiss: This is probaby " not a DNA case", just like experts still say about some more modern cases.

There are some cases I put in the " probably will never know" file in my mind, while I still concern myself with them. Zodiac is up there, along with Jack the Ripper, and some modern cases still in the public eye.

chicoliving
10-16-2008, 02:36 AM
The FBI's investigation to unmask the Zodiac Killer has expanded into another state and authorities are now working to determine a connection to a murder victim that was never linked to the infamous Bay Area serial killer.

http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.suspect.killings.2.841657.html

Mr. E
10-16-2008, 09:08 AM
The FBI's investigation to unmask the Zodiac Killer has expanded into another state and authorities are now working to determine a connection to a murder victim that was never linked to the infamous Bay Area serial killer.

http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.suspect.killings.2.841657.html

Chilling.

Missouri Mule
10-17-2008, 10:52 AM
I agree. It's just that when people make comments like:

you have to pick them apart and show them for what they are worth.

I agree. I'll get back to this in a bit.

Sad but true. The key word here is "industry". There are a lot of people who are trying to, and in some cases sucessfully, making money on the zodiac story. They try to make up for their lack of proof by adding up a lot of small circumstantial evidence which never amounted to enough to make an arrest. While these folks try to make money from this tragedy, recklessly accusing anyone they think they can get away with accusing without getting sued, Tarbox spent his money to tell his story.

It seems to me that folks like you are the reason Tarbox came forward.

Fortunately, we live in society where that's not the way it works.

Getting back to:

I don't think he could be certain that he was visited by Z, and we have to rely on Tarbox's judgment to decide how credible his story is. We know Tarbox was a criminal attorney, I imagine he had a better sense of this kind of judgment than the average person would. He talked to Z for a couple of hours about details of the crime. It's hard for me to imagine that a run of the mill nut off the street could convince Tarbox that they were guilty. And then there's the whole question of why would they even want to. Of course it's easy to make up reasons. Maybe someone wanted to play a joke on Tarbox. Maybe they wanted to settle a score by having someone scare the s out of him. Or maybe it was Z, trying to turn his life around, as Tarbox seems to believe. Maybe someday Tarbox will release the name of his Z and maybe then we'll find out more- until then we just don't know.

I would be interested in learning more about Tarbox though. What did he do with his life after practicing law in CA?

People "like me" are interested in facts. All we know about Tarbox is that he is retired and living in another state, has been found, interviewed, seen to be lucid but there is no evidence that the individual who alleged he was Zodiac was in fact Zodiac. I don't see his "15 minutes" as having any relevant value to the investigation. Zodiac has been dead for 16 years now and he isn't rising from the dead. It's over.

tfrohning
10-17-2008, 07:57 PM
How do you know that z is dead. I happen to live in Napa Valley at the time the Z was killing.
I was on a school bus that the cops follow to school and back bcause of one of his threat.
I follow anything about the z case. did i miss something????

Missouri Mule
10-18-2008, 12:44 AM
How do you know that z is dead. I happen to live in Napa Valley at the time the Z was killing.
I was on a school bus that the cops follow to school and back bcause of one of his threat.
I follow anything about the z case. did i miss something????

I was of course expressing an opinion based on the known facts. It would come down to having a reasonable doubt. I have no reasonable doubt as to his identity.

The only murder that he ever committed where he left provable evidence was at the Lake murder. That leads to one certain individual. It comes down to circumstantial evidence and elimination of suspects. Only one suspect has EVER been considered as the suspect by the investigators who actually worked the case. He died in 1992.

chicoliving
11-15-2008, 02:44 AM
Charles is turning over items that once belonged to his late father. These objects could provide a DNA link to serial killer. Those objects include inhalers, a toothbrush, and a comb.

"It has his hair on it," said Charles. "It's an open investigation; all I know is that they want more items…that is what we're doing"

Dennis Kaufman, Charles' half brother, built a strong enough case against his stepfather to pique the FBI's interest.

"I'm glad he's helping me," said Dennis. "It's a relief because for years we didn't talk because of this thing."

http://cbs13.com/local/evidence.DNA.jack.2.865237.html

arielilane
11-19-2008, 10:23 PM
Thank you for the update!

Steely Dan
01-17-2009, 11:33 PM
Any new info? :confused:

MistyM
01-20-2009, 06:28 AM
Completely off topic, sorry BUT I am not familiar with this case and will have to read about it but wasn't Jack Torrance the character Jack Nicholson played in "The Shining" ?
Probably got it wrong knowing me:confused::)

i know lol, i kept seeing jack torrance too, and it creeped me out and made me think that this jack would have ran around going 'heeeere's johnny!' if he were the zodiac killer.

i need to sleep. overactive imagination.

CanManEh
02-02-2009, 01:45 AM
Hello ..Im just wondering if theres been any new info . If what this son said he found the mask and a knife i forget all what he found now but i found it to be pretty interesting even if they cant get his dna shouldnt some of the items be able to be matched to the victoms like i thought i read there was dried blood on the knife he found and some pictures i just cant remember what all he said he found .

gitana1
02-02-2009, 03:04 AM
I cannot stress enough how much I am waiting to hear the results of the testing on the items, specifically the hooded outfit and the knife!!!

I think Allen was already ruled out due to DNA not a match. I am leaning toward some creditability that the Zodiac killer may have been JT. This case reminds me of BKT, although I think Zodiac is dead.

Allen was not ruled out due to his DNA not matching. Apparently, Allen never licked his own stamps, claiming it made him sick.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenFile.html

gitana1
02-02-2009, 03:41 AM
DNA was known of as far back as 1953. The Zodiac murders began in the late 1960s. Since DNA is a unique marker it would not have required much imagination to realize the potential of keeping the DNA from the crime scenes.

Whoever Zodiac was, it is obvious this was no ordinary criminal. He went to great lengths to throw the investigation off on trails leading nowhere. I don't see any point in all the emphasis in the ciphers. It certainly took up a lot of time of various people but it solved nothing to break the code. And the handprinting was smart in that handprinting versus handwriting can be easily misinterpreted as coming from any number of people while handwriting is extremely difficult to disguise. Then of course we know that the primary suspect was ambidextrious and if I recall correctly had an extremely high IQ and was involved in chemical analysis or related field.

The fingerprints and DNA from the crime scenes, are in my view, totally worthless unless they can be traced to a specific individual. The ONLY clues to the identity are to be found at the lake murder which due to the unfortunate circumstances where Cynthia Shepard essentially bled out but nonetheless allowed the first responding officer to go over carefully with her and subsequently the survivor to arrive at the approximate height and weight of Zodiac. We have the identification of the boot print as being a wingwalker, size 10.5 and with a comparison of the deputy it was determined the weight of Zodiac as being in excess of 230 pounds. All of the other alleged evidence proves nothing at all.

The circumstantial case is overwhelming in my opinion. I've seen nothing to persuades me that it could be anyone else except the only serious suspect of this case and certainly there is nothing to eliminate him as a suspect.

Actually, DNA was known of far earlier than that, first isolated in 1869 by a Swiss scientist. In the 50's Watson and Crick developed the first accurate model of the structure of DNA but shortly before that, the fact that DNA plays a part in heredity was established.
However, it doesn't matter that DNA was known of at the time the Zodiac mailed letters in connection with his crimes: DNA testing of the kind used to identify people was not created/discovered until 1984, long after the Zodiac was active in his criminal activities and letter writing to police and newspapers.
So, I don't believe the mere knowledge that DNA existed and could be linked to heredity would have caused any criminal in the 1960's or early 70's to try to cover their tracks by having another person lick a stamp or otherwise try to avoid putting their DNA on a stamp. At that time, there was no knowledge that DNA could actually be used to id a person through testing.

Steely Dan
02-02-2009, 05:33 AM
Allen was not ruled out due to his DNA not matching. Apparently, Allen never licked his own stamps, claiming it made him sick.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenFile.html

Here are some things that make me scratch my noggin :waitasec:

January 1969: Allen allegedly confided in Don Cheney that he intended to kill couples at random, threaten school children in taunting letters to the police and call himself "Zodiac."

Ok, I'd write it off as something to not take too seriously unless I thought the guy was a total wingnut but let's say he didn't take him seriously. Why then when the Zodiac became news didn't he immediately step forward? :waitasec:

Oct. 10, 1969: Allen supposedly told Ralph Spinelli he would soon be "going to San Francisco to kill a cabbie."


Why didn't that guy come forward? :waitasec:

It seems to fit too well and yet doesn't make sense.

kline
02-02-2009, 05:55 AM
Over the last couple of years Ive been watching the developments with a new POI in the Zodiac case,Richard Gaikowski.
Apparently a friend had voiced suspicion to LE about his involvement back in the 70's.
During the late 60's and early 70's Giakowski was the editor of a radical,counter culture virulantly anti police magazine published in the Bay Area called 'Good Times'.
As early as january of 1969 this magazine advocated the murder of white suburban teenagers.
The switchboard for the magazine was located yards-virtually next door- to cab driver and Zodiac victim Paul Stine's ground floor apartment.
Gaikowski is virtually a dead ringer for the Zodiac composite flyer.
His nickname 'Gyke'appears in the three part cipher Zodiac sent to newspapers.
In Jan 1966 future Zodiac victim Darlene Ferrin moved to Albany New York.
Almost immediatly Gaikowski moved there as well and went to work for a Newspaper that was a competitor for the paper Darlene's then husband worked for.
Mike Maguae the young man who was wounded by Zodiac during Darlene's 1969 murder has said Darlene had refered to their attacker as 'Richard'.
at the time of the murders Gaikowski lived in Martinez Ca. very near Vallejo.
In March of 1971 Zodiac sent a letter to the Los Angeles Times shortly thereafter Gaikowski was involuntarily commited to a Napa hospital after going 'berserk'.
Zodiac didnt write again for three years.
Nancy Slover the Vallejo police dispatcher who spoke with Zodiac the night of the Ferrin murder has listened to tapes of virtually every Zodiac suspect over the years including Arthur Lee Allen.
Last year she was played a tape of Gaikowski made during a telephone conversation.
She positively identified the voice as the man she talked to on July 4th 1969.

Steely Dan
02-02-2009, 07:35 AM
Here's something that bugs me. Everybody thinks Donald Harden broke the code in the Zodiac letter. IIRC, there were 18 symbols at the end they couldn't break into a word.

If 18 symbols were unbreakable then how do we know he broke the code correctly?


I think the code may not have been successfully decoded and everyone thinks it was. Therefore, nobody has gone back and looked at it again with fresh eyes.

:waitasec:

Here's a link (http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.ucsd.edu%2F~wga rner%2Fmath187%2Flockbox%2FLecture%2FMysteries.pdf&images=yes) that's interesting.

This is the deciphered text (http://www.sfgate.com/offbeat/zodiac.html):

I/ L i k e/ K i l l i n g/ P e o p l e/ B e c a u s e/ I t/ I s/ S o/ M u c h/ F u n/ I t/ I s/ M o r e/ F u n/ T h a n/ K i l l i n g/ W i l d/ G a m e/ I n/ T h e/ F o r r e s t/ B e c a u s e/ M a n/ I s/ T h e/ M o s t/ D a n g e r o u e(?)/ A n a m a l(?)/ O f/ A l l/ T o/ K i l l/ S o m e t h i n g/ G i v e s/ M e/ T h e/ M o s t/ T h r i l l i n g/ E x p e r i e n c e/ I t/ I s/ E v e n/ B e t t e r/ T h a n/ G e t t i n g/ Y o u r/ R o c k s/ O f f/ W i t h/ A/ G i r l/ T h e/ B e s t/ P a r t/ O f/ I t/ I s/ T h a e(?)/ W h e n/ I/ D i e/ I/ w i l l/ B e/ R e b o r n/ I n/ P a r a d i c e/ A n d/ T h e/ i(?)/ H a v e/ K i l l e d/ W i l l/ B e c o m e/ M y/ S l a v e s/ I/ W i l l/ N o t/ G i v e/ Y o u/ M y/ N a m e/ B e c a u s e/ Y o u/ W i l l/ T r y/ T o/ S l o i D o w n O r A t o p (?)/ M y/ C o l l e c t i o g (?)/ O f/ S l a v e s/ F o r/ A f t e r l i f e

E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I

Dangeroe is probably Dangerous

Anamal is probably Animal

Thae is probably That

The/ i/ could be The "people" I or maybe That I but it doesn't make grammatical sense. Especially with "people" totally left out of the text. :waitasec:

S l o i D o w n O r A t o p (?) is probably slow down or stop.

C o l l e c t i o g (?) is probably collecting.

And then there is E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I which has not been deciphered into any sensible way.

Are these mistakes by Zodiac losing his place with his symbols and letters or is it poor cyphering? The other possibility is that the mistakes and mumbo jumbo are just done deliberately to waste peoples time.

The E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I is what fascinates me most. Obviously there is meaning or no meaning to those letters.

ETA - Maybe it's a jumble?


I put in the slashes to make it easier to read. The question marks and red text are mine to note something misspelled. Here is the actual undeciphered puzzle.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zodiac340cipher.png)

BTW, the face that most matches the composite (http://www.serialkillerdatabase.net/zodiackiller.html) is Jack Tarrance IMO.

Steely Dan
02-02-2009, 07:48 AM
Over the last couple of years Ive been watching the developments with a new POI in the Zodiac case,Richard Gaikowski.
Apparently a friend had voiced suspicion to LE about his involvement back in the 70's.
During the late 60's and early 70's Giakowski was the editor of a radical,counter culture virulantly anti police magazine published in the Bay Area called 'Good Times'.
As early as january of 1969 this magazine advocated the murder of white suburban teenagers.
The switchboard for the magazine was located yards-virtually next door- to cab driver and Zodiac victim Paul Stine's ground floor apartment.
Gaikowski is virtually a dead ringer for the Zodiac composite flyer.
His nickname 'Gyke'appears in the three part cipher Zodiac sent to newspapers.
In Jan 1966 future Zodiac victim Darlene Ferrin moved to Albany New York.
Almost immediatly Gaikowski moved there as well and went to work for a Newspaper that was a competitor for the paper Darlene's then husband worked for.
Mike Maguae the young man who was wounded by Zodiac during Darlene's 1969 murder has said Darlene had refered to their attacker as 'Richard'.
at the time of the murders Gaikowski lived in Martinez Ca. very near Vallejo.
In March of 1971 Zodiac sent a letter to the Los Angeles Times shortly thereafter Gaikowski was involuntarily commited to a Napa hospital after going 'berserk'.
Zodiac didnt write again for three years.
Nancy Slover the Vallejo police dispatcher who spoke with Zodiac the night of the Ferrin murder has listened to tapes of virtually every Zodiac suspect over the years including Arthur Lee Allen.
Last year she was played a tape of Gaikowski made during a telephone conversation.
She positively identified the voice as the man she talked to on July 4th 1969.

Here are some pictures of Gaikowski;

http://bobpaley.com/assets/Richard_Gaikowski_Copyright_2008_Mary_Paley.jpg

http://www.zodiackiller.com/images/richard.gif

Obviously much older;

http://www.researchpubs.com/Blog/images/featbcrgaiksm.jpg

:waitasec:

This mystery gets more and more confusing. :confused::confused:

kline
02-02-2009, 07:53 AM
Yeah Tarrance does look alot like him.
Of course its been pointed out before and I agree...people shouldnt put too much stock in the composite...Im sure he did look like that but go to your local library anywhere you live pick up a college yearbook for 68/69 and I guarentee you will find four perfect matchs before you get halfway through it.
The codes are a bit beyond me (im a mathamatical idiot) but you may well be right.
Of course I could see him putting nothing of substance in the code or creating a gibberish one just to be a pain.
Or making the references in the key so personal they might as well be encrypted forever.
I mean you know he's probably going to say 'Kill' 'Slaves' 'Shall' 'Papers' ect. you would think if the unsolved ciphers could be cracked they would have been by now.
But like I say its beyond me.

Steely Dan
02-02-2009, 07:54 AM
Here's the composite sketch.

http://www.jerseygeist.com/Zodiac-Killer-1.jpg

Jack Tarrance

http://therealzodiackiller.com/jack1.gif

Another angle

http://llnw.image.cbslocal.com/22/2008/08/29/320x240/TarranceSideBySide.jpg

Another Tarrance

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/MondoLizzie/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/zodiac4.jpg

Steely Dan
02-02-2009, 08:08 AM
Yeah Tarrance does look alot like him.
Of course its been pointed out before and I agree...people shouldnt put too much stock in the composite...Im sure he did look like that but go to your local library anywhere you live pick up a college yearbook for 68/69 and I guarentee you will find four perfect matchs before you get halfway through it.
The codes are a bit beyond me (im a mathamatical idiot) but you may well be right.
Of course I could see him putting nothing of substance in the code or creating a gibberish one just to be a pain.
Or making the references in the key so personal they might as well be encrypted forever.
I mean you know he's probably going to say 'Kill' 'Slaves' 'Shall' 'Papers' ect. you would think if the unsolved ciphers could be cracked they would have been by now.
But like I say its beyond me.

Those glasses appear to be a popular style for back then. When the FBI finally tests the hood and other stuff from Tarrance then it will help to prove him as Zodiac or clear him.

I've always wondered if there couldn't be more than one man involved in this thing and those guys were working together. I wonder if any links between the suspects have ever been established.

It's also possible others committed some of the crimes and took credit for them as the Zodiac. Since it made his legend grow stronger and it would confuse the police who were trying to put the killings on one man, he never said he didn't do those crimes.

:waitasec::confused:

kline
02-02-2009, 08:23 AM
Those glasses appear to be a popular style for back then. When the FBI finally tests the hood and other stuff from Tarrance then it will help to prove him as Zodiac or clear him.

I've always wondered if there couldn't be more than one man involved in this thing and those guys were working together. I wonder if any links between the suspects have ever been established.

It's also possible others committed some of the crimes and took credit for them as the Zodiac. Since it made his legend grow stronger and it would confuse the police who were trying to put the killings on one man, he never said he didn't do those crimes.

:waitasec::confused:Yeah its a definite possibilty(thanks for posting the links too!) kind of like a Hillside Strangler scenario.
Though im pretty much alone in the world of Zodiac Sleuthers I have serious doubts that any of the letters after 1971 are from the real Zodiac.
Or that he killed anyone after Paul Stine.
Its one thing to shoot unarmed teenagers or stab a bound woman or shoot someone in the back of the head but when he was confronted by two armed cops right after Stine's murder (and yeah I think the two policemen DID stop and talk to him)I think Zodiac just about drowned in his own you know what.
And that was the end of his killing spree.
And your right about the glasses...2/3rds of the male teachers I had in Junior High had those same specs complete with the elastic band around the back to keep them in place.

kline
02-02-2009, 08:39 AM
You know its funny but those letters and codes were pretty much what secured Zodiac his place in history.
I was making the point in another forum(see 'Are 5 Idaho Murders Connected?' in the Cold Case forum) that I have a pet unsolved cold case right here in my back yard ive been following for years that involves an uncaught killer who killed 5 victims in just a short of time span and in every bit as bizzare and ferocious manner as Zodiac but that case is virtually unknown outside of this area.(my guy also threw in dismemberment and victims whose bodies were never found)
And like the Zodiac investigators and Arthur leigh Allen the local detectives are sure they know who did it but not enough for an indictment.

anthrobones
02-02-2009, 06:23 PM
What did the couple use to try to solve the cryptograms? How did they figure out what the symbols meant? Is it some kind of ancient alphabet or what?

anthrobones
02-02-2009, 06:29 PM
Here's something that bugs me. Everybody thinks Donald Harden broke the code in the Zodiac letter. IIRC, there were 18 symbols at the end they couldn't break into a word.

If 18 symbols were unbreakable then how do we know he broke the code correctly?


I think the code may not have been successfully decoded and everyone thinks it was. Therefore, nobody has gone back and looked at it again with fresh eyes.

:waitasec:

Here's a link (http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.ucsd.edu%2F%7Ew garner%2Fmath187%2Flockbox%2FLecture%2FMysteries.p df&images=yes) that's interesting.

This is the deciphered text (http://www.sfgate.com/offbeat/zodiac.html):

I/ L i k e/ K i l l i n g/ P e o p l e/ B e c a u s e/ I t/ I s/ S o/ M u c h/ F u n/ I t/ I s/ M o r e/ F u n/ T h a n/ K i l l i n g/ W i l d/ G a m e/ I n/ T h e/ F o r r e s t/ B e c a u s e/ M a n/ I s/ T h e/ M o s t/ D a n g e r o u e(?)/ A n a m a l(?)/ O f/ A l l/ T o/ K i l l/ S o m e t h i n g/ G i v e s/ M e/ T h e/ M o s t/ T h r i l l i n g/ E x p e r i e n c e/ I t/ I s/ E v e n/ B e t t e r/ T h a n/ G e t t i n g/ Y o u r/ R o c k s/ O f f/ W i t h/ A/ G i r l/ T h e/ B e s t/ P a r t/ O f/ I t/ I s/ T h a e(?)/ W h e n/ I/ D i e/ I/ w i l l/ B e/ R e b o r n/ I n/ P a r a d i c e/ A n d/ T h e/ i(?)/ H a v e/ K i l l e d/ W i l l/ B e c o m e/ M y/ S l a v e s/ I/ W i l l/ N o t/ G i v e/ Y o u/ M y/ N a m e/ B e c a u s e/ Y o u/ W i l l/ T r y/ T o/ S l o i D o w n O r A t o p (?)/ M y/ C o l l e c t i o g (?)/ O f/ S l a v e s/ F o r/ A f t e r l i f e

E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I

Dangeroe is probably Dangerous

Anamal is probably Animal

Thae is probably That

The/ i/ could be The "people" I or maybe That I but it doesn't make grammatical sense. Especially with "people" totally left out of the text. :waitasec:

S l o i D o w n O r A t o p (?) is probably slow down or stop.

C o l l e c t i o g (?) is probably collecting.

And then there is E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I which has not been deciphered into any sensible way.

Are these mistakes by Zodiac losing his place with his symbols and letters or is it poor cyphering? The other possibility is that the mistakes and mumbo jumbo are just done deliberately to waste peoples time.

The E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I is what fascinates me most. Obviously there is meaning or no meaning to those letters.

ETA - Maybe it's a jumble?


I put in the slashes to make it easier to read. The question marks and red text are mine to note something misspelled. Here is the actual undeciphered puzzle.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zodiac340cipher.png)

BTW, the face that most matches the composite (http://www.serialkillerdatabase.net/zodiackiller.html) is Jack Tarrance IMO.

What I have always wondered is whether or not Zodiac was either a) poorly literate, or b) purposefully spelling words wrong. To me, "paradice" is the way that someone who did not know how to spell the word (a child not yet exposed to the word, for instance) would spell it...as it sounds.

Steely Dan
02-02-2009, 07:22 PM
What did the couple use to try to solve the cryptograms? How did they figure out what the symbols meant? Is it some kind of ancient alphabet or what?

Linky (http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.ucsd.edu%2F~wga rner%2Fmath187%2Flockbox%2FLecture%2FMysteries.pdf&images=yes)

Be patient. It takes a little time to download.


What I have always wondered is whether or not Zodiac was either a) poorly literate, or b) purposefully spelling words wrong. To me, "paradice" is the way that someone who did not know how to spell the word (a child not yet exposed to the word, for instance) would spell it...as it sounds.

According to statements to police by family and friends, prior to the publication of Zodiac's codes, Allen had possession of codes featuring identical symbols. Additionally, Allen was known to use the same unusual spelling and phrasing as Zodiac later used, such as spelling "Mery Xmass" instead of Merry Xmas and saying "trigger mech" instead of trigger mechanism. Allen would intentionally misspell words to be funny.


Linkage (http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenFile.html)

kline
02-03-2009, 04:11 AM
There has been a lot of speculation on that point.
He was capable of references and spelling that bespoke of someone educated or well read then in the same note he would throw in a childish
mis spelling.Or street level slang reference.
One wonders if this was calculated or the result of drugs or alchohol.
Frankly I have my own theory especially in regards to the 'Little List' note
the latter part where he describes in detail what he intends to do to his'Slaves' in 'Paradice'.
It has the cadence and flow of an obscene phone call.If you get my drift.

MeoW333
03-30-2009, 08:42 AM
Allen has been cleared by both DNA and fingerprints as to not be the Zodiac.
Does anyone else think that the 2 victims who were stabbed in the park were done by a copycat and not the real zodiac? The Zodiac always shot people. The next killing after the couple in the park, i believe was the cabby in which the Zodiac sent a letter in including a piece of his shirt with the cabbie's blood on it.
5 out of 20 letters by the Zodiac are real.

The code in which it said "the most dangerous" i think was supposed to be a reference to "the most dangerous game" linked to the old movie, the Zodiac, in which a man hunted humans.

MagicRose99
04-24-2009, 07:08 AM
The picture is graphic; A dead, bloody body. Dennis Kaufman says the picture came from a roll of film he found in his stepfather's belongings after he died.

Dennis Kaufman agreed to show CBS13 several photographs.

The pictures are difficult to look at, but Kaufman says if just one family finds answers about a loved one who was murdered, the last 9 years he's dedicated to this case will be worth it.

Last year, Dennis Kaufman began supplying the FBI with evidence attempting to prove his stepfather, Jack Tarrance, is the zodiac killer.

The evidence included envelopes for DNA testing and a hood resembling one worn by the zodiac in 1969 during an attack.

The FBI also took rolls of film but Kaufman did not hand over all the film. "When you give something to the FBI you never know what they are going to show or reveal to you," explained Kaufman.

http://cbs13.com/local/zodiac.dna.tests.2.993180.html

defender123
04-24-2009, 10:40 AM
There is or was a whole write up on AMW.
I think Dennis did a really good job proving his step dad did this.
Even showed proof of one of the cars in old photos that his step dad owned.
I get the feeling they don't want the whole mystery solved.
Lots of people have big money in the mystery itself.
Movies, books etc.
I think they should give Dennis credit for putting it all together. IMO:clap:

Steely Dan
04-24-2009, 02:00 PM
There is or was a whole write up on AMW.
I think Dennis did a really good job proving his step dad did this.
Even showed proof of one of the cars in old photos that his step dad owned.
I get the feeling they don't want the whole mystery solved.
Lots of people have big money in the mystery itself.
Movies, books etc.
I think they should give Dennis credit for putting it all together. IMO:clap:

Do you have a link for AMW?

Also, I think the FBI will get to it eventually because they want people to come forward if they knew the guy and had a missing family member or friend. I believe they have put it on the back burner and are working on other things until their workload slows down.

:cow:

defender123
04-24-2009, 07:47 PM
http://www.amw.com/features/feature_story_detail.cfm?id=1542
On the 2nd suspect there was a huge story on AMW about 1 year ago put out by his step son.
He did some really nice work.
Not sure where the whole story went.

defender123
04-24-2009, 07:58 PM
If this link is not ok please delete.
http://thezodiackiller.digitalzones.com/
The whole article is pretty compelling

arielilane
06-13-2009, 04:09 PM
CBS13: S.F. Police Department Holds Up Zodiac Case

Jun 4, 2009 11:21 pm US/Pacific
CBS13 has uncovered a major roadblock in the FBI's investigation into the legendary Zodiac case. It's a lack of cooperation, not from a person, but from a police department.
http://cbs13.com/local/San.Francisco.police.2.1032296.html

http://cbs13.com/slideshows/zodia.killer.sacramento.20.805871.html

http://cbs13.com/zodiackiller

Steely Dan
06-14-2009, 04:19 AM
CBS13: S.F. Police Department Holds Up Zodiac Case

Jun 4, 2009 11:21 pm US/Pacific
CBS13 has uncovered a major roadblock in the FBI's investigation into the legendary Zodiac case. It's a lack of cooperation, not from a person, but from a police department.
http://cbs13.com/local/San.Francisco.police.2.1032296.html

http://cbs13.com/slideshows/zodia.killer.sacramento.20.805871.html

http://cbs13.com/zodiackiller

That's freaky. Any reason anyone can think of for this?

Spyglass
06-14-2009, 09:09 AM
CBS13: S.F. Police Department Holds Up Zodiac Case

Jun 4, 2009 11:21 pm US/Pacific
CBS13 has uncovered a major roadblock in the FBI's investigation into the legendary Zodiac case. It's a lack of cooperation, not from a person, but from a police department.
http://cbs13.com/local/San.Francisco.police.2.1032296.html

http://cbs13.com/slideshows/zodia.killer.sacramento.20.805871.html

http://cbs13.com/zodiackiller

Just a thought from someone is totally ignorant of all aspects of the Zodiac case. As I read through the entire thread, I began thinking that LE should have withheld or altered some part of the letters so they could distinguish between fake letters/confessions and real ones. The old well-known practice of withholding something from the public so that there is something only the police know. Disguising the way a certain letter(s) of the alphabet is written or changing a few symbols would serve that purpose.

Then I read your thread about suspicions that the Zodiac documents had been altered and I thought "aha, LE did alter the letters."

This would NOT explain why SF LE would not make evidence available to FBI
for testing.

arielilane
06-18-2009, 09:00 PM
Will we ever know who is the Zodiac killer?

Zilch
06-19-2009, 12:38 AM
Will we ever know who is the Zodiac killer?

Thats the 16 million dollar question ain't it.

Proud Country Gal
06-19-2009, 01:51 AM
Will we ever know who is the Zodiac killer?

Stranger things have happened... someone I had known for a long time confessed to being an accessory to murder when they were younger . I would never in a million years believed it or even thought it was them, but it was true!

milopedes
06-19-2009, 02:57 PM
Dennis Kaufman makes a compelling argument, and his comparisons to known facts or piece of evidence from the Zodiac case with Jack's whereabouts / artifacts from his life, leads me think he solved the case.

I really wish the SFPD wasn't dragging their feet on this one! I know there are a lot of "ins and outs" regarding this case; but the bottom line should be cooperation and movement toward proving or disproving what the FBI apparently believes is a viable theory. So, what's the point of putting up roadblocks?

And at the very least, considering what was found on the film in Jack's possessions, I think we have a deranged individual who committed what are unsolved crimes - Zodiac or not! So, I hope all the information Dennis is providing can help out.

The work Dennis did on radians, charting it out on a map with known Zodiac crimes and unsolved crimes, is also interesting. If you haven't checked out his site I recommend you do so.

Click Here: http://therealzodiackiller.com/

Syttende
06-19-2009, 06:53 PM
It's shocking that SFPD is restricting information, but I think it boils down to what someone else said -- there's a lot of money and investment by various companies in the "mystery" of the Zodiac's identity. I mean, how many movies have been made about the murders? How many books have been written? There'd be a lot of angry companies.

Plus, the case is decades old, so there's always the possibility the SFPD lost the original copies of the Zodiac letters (what the FBI is asking for), or that it's in a basement somewhere.

I think the Zodiac case will be solved. Kaufman makes a very compelling case and it's difficult to ignore some similarities.

Though I think the composite sketches are pretty useless, I could name a dozen men that look like that.

Steely Dan
06-20-2009, 12:57 AM
It's shocking that SFPD is restricting information, but I think it boils down to what someone else said -- there's a lot of money and investment by various companies in the "mystery" of the Zodiac's identity. I mean, how many movies have been made about the murders? How many books have been written? There'd be a lot of angry companies.

Plus, the case is decades old, so there's always the possibility the SFPD lost the original copies of the Zodiac letters (what the FBI is asking for), or that it's in a basement somewhere.

I think the Zodiac case will be solved. Kaufman makes a very compelling case and it's difficult to ignore some similarities.

Though I think the composite sketches are pretty useless, I could name a dozen men that look like that.

I disagree with a couple of your points. There is a lot of money tied up in the Zodiac killings now but if it's solved all of those things will regain popularity and there will be all sorts of new stuff that will be made and so even more money would be in a solution. Also, I'd bet dollars to donuts that every single piece of this evidence has been pristinely preserved since this is such a high profile case.

The only thing I can think of is that Tarrance may have been investigated and they really blew it and glossed him over and now they don't want that publicized.

arielilane
06-20-2009, 09:59 PM
I think they know it is Tarrance, but aren't telling (at least not yet).

There is hope...look at the BKT story.

Steely Dan
06-21-2009, 03:13 AM
I think they know it is Tarrance, but aren't telling (at least not yet).

There is hope...look at the BKT story.

I think BTK wanted to get caught. If you look at his last few correspondences with LE he was getting sloppier and sloppier. Asking if they can retrieve data from a disc is just stupid. It's something he could have easily found out on his own. I think he craved the attention again.

:cow:

arielilane
06-21-2009, 09:48 PM
I think BTK wanted to get caught. If you look at his last few correspondences with LE he was getting sloppier and sloppier. Asking if they can retrieve data from a disc is just stupid. It's something he could have easily found out on his own. I think he craved the attention again.

:cow: I agree...BTK definitely thrived on attention, and would get irritated if he felt left out. Nut!

arielilane
08-16-2009, 10:53 AM
http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/36795/5m/kpiximg.dayport.com/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1246847106761_0p5727462752030847.jpg (http://cbs5.com/search/Link.ashx?R=http%3a%2f%2fcbs5.com%2fvideo%2f%3fid% 3d52312%40kpix.dayport.com)
Zodiac Killer Mystery-Chasers Gather In Vallejo (http://cbs5.com/search/Link.ashx?R=http%3a%2f%2fcbs5.com%2fvideo%2f%3fid% 3d52312%40kpix.dayport.com) http://llnw.static.cbslocal.com/Themes/CBS/_resources/img/images_image_282165854.jpg
July 5, 2009, 7:11 p.m. Pacific
...to share information on helping to solve the mystery of the Zodiac Killer

Steely Dan
08-16-2009, 01:15 PM
http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/36795/5m/kpiximg.dayport.com/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1246847106761_0p5727462752030847.jpg (http://cbs5.com/search/Link.ashx?R=http%3a%2f%2fcbs5.com%2fvideo%2f%3fid% 3d52312%40kpix.dayport.com)
Zodiac Killer Mystery-Chasers Gather In Vallejo (http://cbs5.com/search/Link.ashx?R=http%3a%2f%2fcbs5.com%2fvideo%2f%3fid% 3d52312%40kpix.dayport.com) http://llnw.static.cbslocal.com/Themes/CBS/_resources/img/images_image_282165854.jpg
July 5, 2009, 7:11 p.m. Pacific
...to share information on helping to solve the mystery of the Zodiac Killer

In that report they say it was a woman who came forward in April about Zodiac possibly being her parent and it was a man, IIRC. :waitasec:

arielilane
08-17-2009, 06:45 PM
In that report they say it was a woman who came forward in April about Zodiac possibly being her parent and it was a man, IIRC. :waitasec:
Yes, there is a thread here regarding the woman who made the claim. Personally, I don’t think she is creditable.

Woman Claims that Her Dad Was Zodiac Killer (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83642&highlight=zodiac+killer) (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83642&highlight=zodiac+killer) 2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83642&page=2&highlight=zodiac+killer))

I was impressed with the group that gathered in Vallejo to share information on helping to solve the mystery.

CanManEh
08-18-2009, 11:49 AM
Is it just me or did something go sideways on this thread the one i was kinda excited about was a guy that said he had found pictures of women tied up and he had found a scuba knife with what he thought was blood on it as well as the actuall hood that Zodiac wore home made videos stuff like that thats the case i remember reading on here awhile back and he was or had turned it over to the police a simple for dna and stuff there was more found i beleive pics of the victoms maybe and drawings of the plan for the school bus does anyone else remember this being on here ...Also i think his name is steve huff the blogger guy said that this guy had made some claims before though and he thought he was not credible....what ever happened to this guy and his so called evidence was there ever an update on his stuff. ??

arielilane
08-22-2009, 01:26 PM
Is it just me or did something go sideways on this thread the one i was kinda excited about was a guy that said he had found pictures of women tied up and he had found a scuba knife with what he thought was blood on it as well as the actuall hood that Zodiac wore home made videos stuff like that thats the case i remember reading on here awhile back and he was or had turned it over to the police a simple for dna and stuff there was more found i beleive pics of the victoms maybe and drawings of the plan for the school bus does anyone else remember this being on here ...Also i think his name is steve huff the blogger guy said that this guy had made some claims before though and he thought he was not credible....what ever happened to this guy and his so called evidence was there ever an update on his stuff. ??Here is the story of which I believe you are speaking of. I too have wondered the same. Nothing recently has been written about the findings of late that I can find. I thought he was credible and no news (hush,hush) makes me wonder even the more.


http://cbs5.com/national/zodiac.killer.kaufman.2.806089.html

The evidence was given to the FBI by a Pollock Pines man who also claims he recently found the disguise worn by the Zodiac Killer during one of his attacks.

"The identity of the Zodiac Killer is Jack Tarrance. He's my stepfather," says Dennis Kaufman.

CanManEh
08-24-2009, 02:53 PM
I actually found some good info on you tube well at least on the girl who claims it had her interview in full however all she stated was after seeing the composit she realized it was her father she does have his glasses she shows them and she says he took her on some of the kills but again no real updates...

miles_draken
09-18-2009, 05:43 PM
http://www.sequimgazette.com/gazettetop/articleDetail.exm/Index/article/2009-09-16_ZODIAC_Serial_killer_still__stalks_retired_offi cer__146_s_memories/

I had never heard of this story before, has anyone else heard about it or does anyone know if this story has been discredited? interesting read.

arielilane
05-26-2010, 05:34 PM
http://investigation.discovery.com/videos/true-crime-with-aphrodite-jones-interviews-son-of-the-zodiac-killer.html

True Crime with Aphrodite Jones: Interviews: Son of the Zodiac Killer

For over fourty years the Zodiac killer's identity remains unknown. Now Dennis Kaufman speaks with Aphrodite Jones and explains why he believes his stepfather is the infamous Zodiac Killer.

arielilane
05-26-2010, 05:43 PM
Anyone interested in this case should try to catch a repeat of True Crime With Aphrodite Jones' story on the Zodiac Killer. The handwriting analysis was worth watching. I'm convinced The Zodiac was Tarrance.

http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/true-crime/

Dr. Doogie
05-28-2010, 06:05 PM
I believe with all of my fiber that Jack Tarrance is NOT the Zodiac Killer and that Dennis Kaufman has created the case against Tarrance through deceit and fabrication.

Here is a link to a website that critically examines Dennis's "evidence": http://dennislkaufman.websitetoolbox.com/

Here is a link to a Youtube video that challenges the most flagrant deceit in the Aphrodite Jones show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJIvDjl-_8k&feature=youtu.be Dennis and his cult followers are claiming that the FBI has confirmed Tarrance's handwriting matches the Zodiac's handwriting, but this is false! The video lays out the sequence of events to show that the FBI has deemed the so-called "handwriting expert's" analysis to be inconclusive.

arielilane
05-29-2010, 10:53 PM
I don't believe they claimed that the FBI confirmed the handwriting analysis or anything related to The Zodiac. The show simply revealed their findings and comparisons of the handwriting analysis.

Dr. Doogie
05-31-2010, 02:57 AM
Trust me: They are saying that Aphrodite Jones has confirmed that the FBI has agreed that Tarrance's handwriting matches the Zodiac. The FBI, when asked by an outside source, has specifically said that they have not declared a match, but Kaufman and his little cult don't let things like facts get in the way of their "truth". All Jones did was repeat a statment given to her by Nannette Barto, Kaufman's rookie document examiner who received her degree from a correspondence school and has no accredidation from any recognized certification board. The whole argument is the equivilent to this fictional dialogue:

Moron: The moon is made of green cheese.
Astrophysicist: You are saying that the moon is made of green cheese?
Moron: See, even an astrophysicist agrees with me!

This is only one example of the house of cards that Kaufman used to build his case against his stepfather and not even the most ridiculous. Are you folks aware that Kaufman, Barto and the owner of Dennis's message board, "Catseye", have claimed that Jack Tarrance was also the Chicago Lipstick Killer, the Texarkana Phantom, the Black Dahlia Killer, the I-45 Killer, the 2001 Anthrax Killer and the author of the Jon Benet Ramsey ransom note - seriously! They even believe that Tarrance may have been the Cleveland Torso Killer, but are not sure since Jack would have been only eight years old at the time!

These people are deranged and wouldn't know a logical argument if it bit them on the heiney. Kaufman has attempted to sell "evidence" and has self-published a book and self-produced a documentary - both of which were discontinued when his customers began to demand that he actual deliver the products that they had prepaid for yet never seemed to receive. Dennis has sold the rights to his story to gullible investors in both the print and movie medias. This is a cash cow for him, yet he accuses those who apply common sense to his claims as profiteers "getting rich off of the victims".

BTW: In case it isn't clear, I don't like this guy.

ZodiacCasenumer31628
09-03-2010, 03:16 AM
Here's something that bugs me. Everybody thinks Donald Harden broke the code in the Zodiac letter. IIRC, there were 18 symbols at the end they couldn't break into a word.

If 18 symbols were unbreakable then how do we know he broke the code correctly?


I think the code may not have been successfully decoded and everyone thinks it was. Therefore, nobody has gone back and looked at it again with fresh eyes.

:waitasec:

Here's a link (http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.ucsd.edu%2F~wga rner%2Fmath187%2Flockbox%2FLecture%2FMysteries.pdf&images=yes) that's interesting.

This is the deciphered text (http://www.sfgate.com/offbeat/zodiac.html):

I/ L i k e/ K i l l i n g/ P e o p l e/ B e c a u s e/ I t/ I s/ S o/ M u c h/ F u n/ I t/ I s/ M o r e/ F u n/ T h a n/ K i l l i n g/ W i l d/ G a m e/ I n/ T h e/ F o r r e s t/ B e c a u s e/ M a n/ I s/ T h e/ M o s t/ D a n g e r o u e(?)/ A n a m a l(?)/ O f/ A l l/ T o/ K i l l/ S o m e t h i n g/ G i v e s/ M e/ T h e/ M o s t/ T h r i l l i n g/ E x p e r i e n c e/ I t/ I s/ E v e n/ B e t t e r/ T h a n/ G e t t i n g/ Y o u r/ R o c k s/ O f f/ W i t h/ A/ G i r l/ T h e/ B e s t/ P a r t/ O f/ I t/ I s/ T h a e(?)/ W h e n/ I/ D i e/ I/ w i l l/ B e/ R e b o r n/ I n/ P a r a d i c e/ A n d/ T h e/ i(?)/ H a v e/ K i l l e d/ W i l l/ B e c o m e/ M y/ S l a v e s/ I/ W i l l/ N o t/ G i v e/ Y o u/ M y/ N a m e/ B e c a u s e/ Y o u/ W i l l/ T r y/ T o/ S l o i D o w n O r A t o p (?)/ M y/ C o l l e c t i o g (?)/ O f/ S l a v e s/ F o r/ A f t e r l i f e

E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I

Dangeroe is probably Dangerous

Anamal is probably Animal

Thae is probably That

The/ i/ could be The "people" I or maybe That I but it doesn't make grammatical sense. Especially with "people" totally left out of the text. :waitasec:

S l o i D o w n O r A t o p (?) is probably slow down or stop.

C o l l e c t i o g (?) is probably collecting.

And then there is E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I which has not been deciphered into any sensible way.

Are these mistakes by Zodiac losing his place with his symbols and letters or is it poor cyphering? The other possibility is that the mistakes and mumbo jumbo are just done deliberately to waste peoples time.

The E B E O R I E T E M E T H H P I T I is what fascinates me most. Obviously there is meaning or no meaning to those letters.

ETA - Maybe it's a jumble?


I put in the slashes to make it easier to read. The question marks and red text are mine to note something misspelled. Here is the actual undeciphered puzzle.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zodiac340cipher.png)

BTW, the face that most matches the composite (http://www.serialkillerdatabase.net/zodiackiller.html) is Jack Tarrance IMO.

The code was broken by zodiac himself. He solved his own cipher right in front of them. He always insisted he was crackproof after it was solved and he is correct.The last 18 symbols are random that he took from the deciphered message just to play a game. He looks like both sketches and hand writing matches.

justthinkin
09-03-2010, 02:30 PM
We aren't supposed to double post things, but please have a look at what I posted in Cold Cases, on the Zodiac thread there.

Of course I have no idea if it has any merit, but the guy needs to be looked at as a possibiity.

LadyL
09-22-2010, 01:55 AM
The code was broken by zodiac himself. He solved his own cipher right in front of them. He always insisted he was crackproof after it was solved and he is correct.The last 18 symbols are random that he took from the deciphered message just to play a game. He looks like both sketches and hand writing matches.

who is the 'zodiac himself'?

Steely Dan
09-22-2010, 08:52 PM
who is the 'zodiac himself'?

I don't recall that about him solving the cipher in front of them. :waitasec:

Sunday
05-16-2014, 08:15 AM
The Zodiac always said that he had cleverly disguised himself during his crimes, which would explain why Allen looks different from the sketches, and very much like the Principal at the school from which he was fired: http://www.zodiackiller.com/1968Class.html




Linky (http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/pdf2html.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmath.ucsd.edu%2F~wga rner%2Fmath187%2Flockbox%2FLecture%2FMysteries.pdf&images=yes)

Be patient. It takes a little time to download.



According to statements to police by family and friends, prior to the publication of Zodiac's codes, Allen had possession of codes featuring identical symbols. Additionally, Allen was known to use the same unusual spelling and phrasing as Zodiac later used, such as spelling "Mery Xmass" instead of Merry Xmas and saying "trigger mech" instead of trigger mechanism. Allen would intentionally misspell words to be funny.


Linkage (http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenFile.html)

Steely Dan
05-16-2014, 09:03 AM
This is the guy I think is the real Zodiac. That new book is a sham. JMO

minazoe
05-21-2014, 07:44 PM
I think the new book is very compelling

twocuriouscats
05-24-2014, 06:40 PM
I think the new book is very compelling

I do too. The sketches of witnesses look very much like his photo. Everything has to fall into place factually and I haven't researched it myself much. Here's a link to an interview the son did recently.
RAW: Finding the Zodiac Killer (full interview) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SEzyMjrcZg)

txsvicki
05-24-2014, 08:15 PM
The code was broken by zodiac himself. He solved his own cipher right in front of them. He always insisted he was crackproof after it was solved and he is correct.The last 18 symbols are random that he took from the deciphered message just to play a game. He looks like both sketches and hand writing matches.

I haven't read much or followed the codes and much of what zodiac said, but those last letters, just at a glance, look like "before time met the pity" to me, all jumbled and misspelled. I know it sounds stupid, but he didn't spell out things correctly in his wording of the note.