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KivaSupporter
08-31-2008, 09:00 PM
In response to my post on a Croatian forum, I received an e-mail from a person who lives close to Skradin. He is offering to help search for Seka.

He says he is very familiar with Skradin, as well as with Belgrade, and has friends in both places.

He also says that Serbs generally did not sell their houses in Skradin due to the war, so he believes it is likely that Seka's family still owns a house there. However, he is going to check the Land Registry for any registered house sales and any other information which could help identify Seka and her family. He will also talk to older people residing there.

I will let you know what happens.

Annasmom
08-31-2008, 09:25 PM
Let me remind everyone why we are looking for Seka. We know that she was in contact with the Georges over quite some period of time in San Francisco. We have copies of George Brody's correspondence to Seka as well as a post card she sent to "Mr. George" from Belgrade. She almost certainly would be able to furnish some pieces of the puzzle, but up until KivaSupporter came on board, we were not able to track her down...despite quite a few heroic attempts. We are much obliged to KS for her assistance on this.

Julessleuther
08-31-2008, 11:52 PM
Do we know why she was in San Fran? Maybe she was a student? Maybe we could check student records at the local colleges? I will go back and re-read everything, so I don't have to keep asking questions....


Let me remind everyone why we are looking for Seka. We know that she was in contact with the Georges over quite some period of time in San Francisco. We have copies of George Brody's correspondence to Seka as well as a post card she sent to "Mr. George" from Belgrade. She almost certainly would be able to furnish some pieces of the puzzle, but up until KivaSupporter came on board, we were not able to track her down...despite quite a few heroic attempts. We are much obliged to KS for her assistance on this.

KivaSupporter
09-01-2008, 09:07 AM
Do we know why she was in San Fran? Maybe she was a student? Maybe we could check student records at the local colleges? I will go back and re-read everything, so I don't have to keep asking questions....


I believe she was a student and also working part-time. Do you know how to get copies of student records? I could identify Serbian names.

Thanks.

KivaSupporter
09-01-2008, 10:23 AM
This morning I received a very nice e-mail from a person in Serbia who had seen my message on a Serbian forum.

She sent me contact information for a Serbian Orthodox church in Skradin, a local municipal administration office, and a widely-read regional newspaper where we could place an ad or possibly publish an article.

She is offering to help but does not know how to proceed without Seka's last name.

I will work on all the above suggestions.

KivaSupporter
09-01-2008, 10:29 AM
Anna's mom, is there any way you could figure out the words which were crossed out on the postcard from Seka to Mr. George? I believe that would be extremely helpful.

Does anyone know if there is a way to lift the ink from the paper (used to cross out the words) leaving the words (probably written with a ballpoint pen) visible?

SherlockJr
09-01-2008, 10:52 AM
I believe Ms. Walla, the handwriting expert, has a way to determine what is written before it was scribbled out. I would suggest e-mailing this to Ms. Walla to see if she can help.

Annasmom
09-01-2008, 02:03 PM
I believe Ms. Walla, the handwriting expert, has a way to determine what is written before it was scribbled out. I would suggest e-mailing this to Ms. Walla to see if she can help.
Here is the card again, plus an enlargement of the scribbled-out part. Should I re-post the typed copies of the letters to Seka?

Julessleuther
09-02-2008, 03:00 AM
Just a comment about the note: If George could understand Sekas language, wouldn't she have written in Croatian, rather than English? Perhaps if she was student, she was a nursing student and worked with George W? I wonder if the places George W worked have an records for her?


Do we know Sekas last name?

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
09-02-2008, 09:43 AM
Just a comment about the note: If George could understand Sekas language, wouldn't she have written in Croatian, rather than English? Perhaps if she was student, she was a nursing student and worked with George W? I wonder if the places George W worked have an records for her?


Do we know Sekas last name?

Good point about the language.

Seka's last name is unknown. That's why it has been so hard to find out who she is...also the fact that Seka is a commonly used nickname, meaning "Little Sister".

Annasmom
09-02-2008, 01:32 PM
Just a comment about the note: If George could understand Sekas language, wouldn't she have written in Croatian, rather than English? Perhaps if she was student, she was a nursing student and worked with George W? I wonder if the places George W worked have an records for her?


Do we know Sekas last name?

Since the only surviving example of Seka's own handwriting was addressed to "Mr. George", it could well have been meant for GW instead of GB. Although the typed copies of the letters to her are in GB's "picturesque" way of writing, remember that GW wanted to model himself on GB and frequently had GB dictate letters which he (GW) then signed. Given that Seka seems to be a nice young girl from a good family, it is more likely that she would want to be friends with a youngish American doctor than with a strange old coot.

It was a pattern which was often repeated. GW would introduce a friend to GB in hopes that someone else would worship him as he did. When this did not happen, GW would then "sever relations" with the former friend. This is the term he used. It then served to further isolate him from any normal reality check. So sad.

KivaSupporter
09-02-2008, 01:37 PM
Did Ms. Walla provide her services regarding Anna free-of-charge?

Dr. Doogie
09-02-2008, 02:22 PM
Since the only surviving example of Seka's own handwriting was addressed to "Mr. George", it could well have been meant for GW instead of GB...Given that Seka seems to be a nice young girl from a good family, it is more likely that she would want to be friends with a youngish American doctor than with a strange old coot...

I agree with this analysis. At first, I thought that "Mr. George" was Brody, but this makes more sense considering the "romantic" nature of the communications.

KivaSupporter
09-02-2008, 02:27 PM
Is there anyone who lives in or close to San Bruno, California willing to visit the National Archives and Records Administration?

I received information from the NARA Headquarters that Naturalization records are kept in their regional facilities and are public records. The regional office applying to San Francisco is located in San Bruno.

http://archives.gov/pacific/san-francisco/gil.pdf

I am guessing that Seka, after graduating, stayed in the US in or near San Francisco and was naturalized around 1985 or so. In those days, the requirement for requesting naturalization was five years in the US for persons with green cards. The process was different from the one today.

I believe there was only one naturalization date per year per regional Immigration & Naturalization Office.

Since we do not know Seka's last name yet, we would need a copy of all the naturalized citizens for the years from 1985 till (1989?) for that region. I believe I could identify Serbian names. Also, if I remember correctly, the country of origin is shown for each person.

Anyone willing to give it a try?

I would be happy to do it myself but I am on the East coast.

KivaSupporter
09-02-2008, 02:34 PM
I agree with this analysis. At first, I thought that "Mr. George" was Brody, but this makes more sense considering the "romantic" nature of the communications.


I also agree that was the case.

KivaSupporter
09-03-2008, 12:28 PM
Just received an e-mail from the person from the Croatian forum who had previously responded:

"I will go to Skradin and spend 2-3 days there. First, I will try to find out Seka's first and last names by talking to older residents, hotel and restaurant owners, taxi drivers, and shop owners. Then, I will go to the police station to see if they could help. Then, I will go to Belgrade.

It is possible that Seka's family has permanently moved to Skradin, due to the poor economic situation in Serbia. Many people who have houses in Skradin have done so."

I am hoping for the best.

Annasmom
09-04-2008, 06:04 PM
KivaSupporter researched methods for recovering obliterated text such as the scribbled-out words on Seka's postcard from Belgrade, and she has made arrangements for an expert to do this. The card is on the way via Registered Mail. Many, many thanks to KS for managing this. Whether or not the deleted words mean anything or not, we will not know unless we find what they were.

SideKick
09-04-2008, 09:52 PM
KivaSupporter, you are awesome!
Can't wait for the results.

* I have been searching more on the Seka who was the porn star, tho her bio says she was born in the USA, I wonder? Was this gal a white/ girl or from somewher else, sorry if this sounds crazy... the whole enamoured feel from George whoever about Seka is very interesting despite the pure good family life she apparently came from. Makes me think what on earth would a young girl like that be facscinated by the two G's! Reallly.

Just thinking........

Julessleuther
09-05-2008, 12:50 AM
I saw her info too, and at one point in time, I believe she was in San Francisco. I will see if I can find the info! Opps, nevermind-- I guess she did a movie, Blond in San Francisco. I did find this, however. COuld our Seka be a massage therapist?
http://www.loriloo.com/2004/08/wisdom-of-seka



KivaSupporter, you are awesome!
Can't wait for the results.

* I have been searching more on the Seka who was the porn star, tho her bio says she was born in the USA, I wonder? Was this gal a white/ girl or from somewher else, sorry if this sounds crazy... the whole enamoured feel from George whoever about Seka is very interesting despite the pure good family life she apparently came from. Makes me think what on earth would a young girl like that be facscinated by the two G's! Reallly.

Just thinking........

Annasmom
09-05-2008, 12:56 AM
KivaSupporter, you are awesome!
Can't wait for the results.

* I have been searching more on the Seka who was the porn star, tho her bio says she was born in the USA, I wonder? Was this gal a white/ girl or from somewher else, sorry if this sounds crazy... the whole enamoured feel from George whoever about Seka is very interesting despite the pure good family life she apparently came from. Makes me think what on earth would a young girl like that be facscinated by the two G's! Reallly.

Just thinking........

Well, if you met the younger George by himself and he was in an environment where he couldn't conveniently start parroting GB's "philosophy", you'd see a very handsome, idealistic Ivy League-educated physician from a good family...

Annasmom
09-05-2008, 01:02 AM
I saw her info too, and at one point in time, I believe she was in San Francisco. I will see if I can find the info! Opps, nevermind-- I guess she did a movie, Blond in San Francisco. I did find this, however. COuld our Seka be a massage therapist?
http://www.loriloo.com/2004/08/wisdom-of-seka

I thought Doogie said the actress Seka was Asian and therefore not the one we were looking forl

birdie74
09-05-2008, 07:46 AM
Doogie later corrected himself. It turned out she was blond, and not Asian.

SideKick
09-05-2008, 08:20 AM
Annasmom,

George W was definitely a stunning looking man, and his intelligence also attractive. What I mean't was a young girl meeting 2 older men, George W., was still older than Seka as we know GB most def. was. I ponder what she was interested in despite Waters being an attractive man. What was the relationship? GB said something about Seka acquiring her own room soon. I thought maybe she did work in a nightclub of sorts part time and if so, she could be the Seka currently in SF?

Annasmom
09-05-2008, 04:59 PM
Annasmom,

George W was definitely a stunning looking man, and his intelligence also attractive. What I mean't was a young girl meeting 2 older men, George W., was still older than Seka as we know GB most def. was. I ponder what she was interested in despite Waters being an attractive man. What was the relationship? GB said something about Seka acquiring her own room soon. I thought maybe she did work in a nightclub of sorts part time and if so, she could be the Seka currently in SF?

I'm more or less assuming GW met her at his work somehow. I really don't think the SF Seka is the one we're looking for. Otherwise, it's hard to explain how long she seemed to stay in touch with one or the other of the Georges, since their rant drove people away pretty quickly. In 1976, when the correspondence began, GW would have been only 37. Now, I know I'm an AARP member, but that seems really young to me!

Also, I should add that the Georges had a very specific meaning for the word "Romantic". They didn't necessarily mean lovey-dovey when they used this word. They referred to "Romantic Types". GB considered himself a Romantic and believed that was why he was so attractive to both men and women, urp.

KivaSupporter
09-06-2008, 08:36 AM
I just received this from NARA San Bruno, Ca:

This is response to your e-mail dated September 5, 2008 concerning Petitions for Naturalization for San Francisco for the years 1985-90.

The holdings of the Archival Records Operations Unit (NRHA-S) of the National Archives and Records Administration - Pacific Region (San Francisco) includes approximately 56,500 cubic feet of original records generated by Federal courts and agency field offices within our region from the 1850s to the 1970s. Our region covers northern and central California, Nevada (except Clark County), Hawaii, American Samoa, and the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands. We also have a large collection of National Archives microfilm publications, including all extant Federal population census schedules from 1790 to 1930 for the entire United States.

On March 26, 1790, Congress passed an act (1 Stat. 103) that allowed any individual seeking citizenship to apply to any court of record in a state where he or she lived for one year. Before September 27, 1906, an alien could seek citizenship through any Federal, state, or local court. As a result, you need to know to which court an immigrant submitted the application for naturalization.

There is no central repository for all naturalizations that ever occurred in the United States between March 26, 1790 and the present. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) only have custody of records of naturalizations that occurred in Federal courts prior to ca. 1975. Fortunately for the time period you are inquiring about (1985-90), naturalizations only occurred in U.S. District Courts. Unfortunately, the actual records you are seeking (the original Petitions for Naturalization) are still in the custody of the U.S. District Court in San Francisco.
Our facility holds some naturalization records transferred from Federal courts in northern California, Hawaii, and Nevada. U.S. district and circuit courts in Honolulu, Reno, Sacramento, and San Francisco originated these naturalization records. In addition to these Federal court records, we hold naturalization records of two Nevada state courts, the First District Court of Nevada at Fallon (Churchill County) and the Second District Court of Nevada at Reno (Washoe County), and one California county court, the Marin County Superior Court. These latter state- and local-level holdings are exemptions to the rule.

Our records document naturalization proceedings performed during the specified time periods in the following courts:

District Court, Northern District of California (San Francisco), 1851-1973
Circuit Court, Northern District of California (San Francisco), 1855-1911
District Court, Eastern District of California (Sacramento), 1917-74
District Court, District of Hawaii, 1900-91
District Court, District of Nevada, 1868-1929 (microfilm only)
State Court, First District, Churchill County, Fallon, Nevada, 1877-1956
State Court, Second District, Washoe County, Reno, Nevada, 1853-1949
Superior Court, Marin County, California, 1871-1957

Since October 1906 most naturalizations have been performed in Federal district courts. Generally, each U.S. District Court maintains card indexes to naturalization records filed in that court from 1906 (or earlier) to the present. Among our microfilm holdings is National Archives microfilm publication M1744 entitled Index to Naturalizations in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California, 1852 - ca. 1989 and Naturalizations in the U.S. Circuit Court for the Northern District of California, 1855 - 1911.

The entire series includes 165 rolls of microfilm, but there are some substantial gaps in the alphabetic sequence. Fortunately, the original index cards still exist in our custody. We can perform a search of this NARA microfilm publication if you provide us with the name(s) of the person(s) you are interested in. We should be able to provide you with the person's petition number, which you can then use to contact the Clerk of the Court of the U.S. District Court for the District of Northern California, Southern Division (San Francisco) to receive a copy of the actual record (Petition for Naturalization). For more information, please contact:

U.S. District Court
Northern District of California (Southern Division)
Attn: Clerk of the Court
450 Golden Gate Avenue Floor 16
San Francisco, CA 94102-3426
Telephone: 415-522-4151
FAX: 415-522-2176
URL: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/

Thank you for the opportunity to serve you; I trust the information furnished will be of benefit to you. If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,
J. S., Archives Technician
NARA - Pacific Region (San Francisco)
Archival Records Operations (NRHA-S)
1000 Commodore Drive
San Bruno, CA 94066-2350
Telephone: 650-238-3487
FAX: 650-238-3510
URL: http://www.archives.gov/pacific/san-francisco/index.html

I am not aware whether the Clerk of the Court has access to NARA microfilm publication M1744 or if they have some other way of searching for the aforementioned petitions (perhaps an electronic index), but you can contact the court directly to inquire about their procedures and the costs associated with securing copies of the documents you are requesting.

iNTERESTEDWOMAN
09-06-2008, 11:05 AM
I'm more or less assuming GW met her at his work somehow. I really don't think the SF Seka is the one we're looking for. Otherwise, it's hard to explain how long she seemed to stay in touch with one or the other of the Georges, since their rant drove people away pretty quickly. In 1976, when the correspondence began, GW would have been only 37. Now, I know I'm an AARP member, but that seems really young to me!

Also, I should add that the Georges had a very specific meaning for the word "Romantic". They didn't necessarily mean lovey-dovey when they used this word. They referred to "Romantic Types". GB considered himself a Romantic and believed that was why he was so attractive to both men and women, urp.

:) I understand exactly what you mean. My sister is a Romanticist. Not necessarily "Romantic" in the true sense of the word, but has this romantic notion that the world is a bed of roses, everyone is trustworthy and that everybody loves and adores her...:eek: I can't say it's really a "Bad" thing, as it seems that everyone does seem to bow down to her...LOL I wonder if that is what the Georges meant when they called Seka a "Romantic"

As far as Brody considering himself as a romanticist, that had to be his delusional thinking at work. I don't think you can be paranoid and a romanticist at the same time. :waitasec:

KivaSupporter
09-18-2008, 10:31 PM
I just heard from this person.

He found an old restaurant in Skradin previously owned by a Serb person who would very likely know most of the people who used to vacation there. This person has since moved to another town but he was able to trace him and will contact him.

I am optimistic.




In response to my post on a Croatian forum, I received an e-mail from a person who lives close to Skradin. He is offering to help search for Seka.

He says he is very familiar with Skradin, as well as with Belgrade, and has friends in both places.

He also says that Serbs generally did not sell their houses in Skradin due to the war, so he believes it is likely that Seka's family still owns a house there. However, he is going to check the Land Registry for any registered house sales and any other information which could help identify Seka and her family. He will also talk to older people residing there.

I will let you know what happens.

SeekingJana
10-13-2008, 05:58 PM
The marked out words do not appear to be English, IMO. They are written in the same style and with the same color ink as the initial message on the postcard.

I believe the two words are probably the true name of Seka, or her family's name.
I think this should get immediate attention. JMO.

Annasmom, has the FBI been involved in Anna's case? They have people who are trained to do this type of work. I think it should be fairly easy to lift or make an impression of the name from the postcard, since we can see downstrokes, upstrokes and a bit of the capital letters all by ourselves.

Best to you, KivaSupporter, and Annasmom, and prayers that Anna will be found through this connection.

Hugs,
Maria

Annasmom
10-14-2008, 09:42 AM
The marked out words do not appear to be English, IMO. They are written in the same style and with the same color ink as the initial message on the postcard.

I believe the two words are probably the true name of Seka, or her family's name.
I think this should get immediate attention. JMO.

Annasmom, has the FBI been involved in Anna's case? They have people who are trained to do this type of work. I think it should be fairly easy to lift or make an impression of the name from the postcard, since we can see downstrokes, upstrokes and a bit of the capital letters all by ourselves.

Best to you, KivaSupporter, and Annasmom, and prayers that Anna will be found through this connection.

Hugs,
Maria Hi, Maria. Sorry about the late answer; my computer was in the shop five days and I only have the one. KivaS sent the post card to a private lab for analysis...they use some high-tech equipment, but they were not able to separate the writing from the scribble. The FBI is aware of Anna's case, but neither they nor the local law enforcement people will take any action unless we have proof that a crime was committed.

SeekingJana
10-14-2008, 03:35 PM
Hi, Maria. Sorry about the late answer; my computer was in the shop five days and I only have the one. KivaS sent the post card to a private lab for analysis...they use some high-tech equipment, but they were not able to separate the writing from the scribble. The FBI is aware of Anna's case, but neither they nor the local law enforcement people will take any action unless we have proof that a crime was committed.

Have you thought that the words on the postcard are Seka's real name or her parent's name? I have a strong feeling that it is and that maybe it was written when the card was mailed ( posted).

Annasmom, help me understand this. Anna was 6 years old. She didn't pack a bag and move out. LE searched the creek for her. It was not determined that she had drowned. Why didn't local LE pursue her case as a Missing Child case? What about just plain Kidnapping, which has existed as a crime against children at least back to the Lingbergh kidnapping and the law reforms related to kidnappings at that time?
I would think the statue of limitations has run out. Am I correct since Anna, if living, is an adult?

Annasmom
10-14-2008, 06:14 PM
Have you thought that the words on the postcard are Seka's real name or her parent's name? I have a strong feeling that it is and that maybe it was written when the card was mailed ( posted).

Annasmom, help me understand this. Anna was 6 years old. She didn't pack a bag and move out. LE searched the creek for her. It was not determined that she had drowned. Why didn't local LE pursue her case as a Missing Child case? What about just plain Kidnapping, which has existed as a crime against children at least back to the Lingbergh kidnapping and the law reforms related to kidnappings at that time?
I would think the statue of limitations has run out. Am I correct since Anna, if living, is an adult?
SJ, I'll answer your question from the other thread here. Of course, anything is possible, but if you read the early descriptions of the case, you see that no single indication was ever found that Anna went into the creek. That was the first place we looked, because that was the most immediate danger, but it was searched in every possible way over a period of years, by divers, hikers, people on horseback, sniffer dogs. Even the US Geological Survey contributed to these reports. Because of the initial press coverage, lots of people were left with the impression that she did to into the creek.

Second, Anna's case WAS pursued as a missing child case and the case is still listed with LE and the NCMEC as a "probable non-family abduction". Her father was followed by LE for several days and by a private investigator later on.

Yes, the statute of limitations on kidnapping has run out.

Regarding the Seka scribble, there's no telling what it is. If they couldn't find it with a spectrometer or whatever sophisticated device that lab was using, then it's anybody's guess. The whole association with Seka happened years after Anna disappeared, and we don't know whether she had any connection or not. However, she obviously DID have a connection with the Georges which lasted some time, unlike their other associations.

Thank you for giving your thoughts on all this. It really helps to have someone else looking at everything, because we never know when a new possibility might come up.

SeekingJana
10-15-2008, 12:12 AM
Annasmom, thank you so much. How important do you think " Seka" is at this point?
What do you feel in your heart, regarding Anna? Do you believe she is alive and well? I believe in trusting our feelings about loved ones. :)

Anna's case has always captivated me, but I have not had as much time to spend on it as I wish I had.
With respect for you and your family,

Maria

KivaSupporter
10-15-2008, 01:07 PM
The Forensic Document Examiner had difficulties identifying the obliterated text. She could only identify the number 4 (see the marked scan). I was then able to determine that this number was stamped on the postcard by the post office. There is a round ink stamp and the Croatian Coat of Arms stamped close to it.

I believe the rest of the obliterated text was written by Seka. It seems to me a telephone number is written on the second line.

People from that part of the world often write additional information in that area of postcards, such as their name and address.

If you open the scan in the Microsoft Office Picture Manager, you can change brightness, contrast, and color. You can also zoom in and out.

Would anyone be willing to try to see if anything else could be identified on the postcard?

SCAN:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/2374-q-1a.jpg

MARKED SCAN:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/2374-q-1a-MARKED.jpg

HIGHER CONTRAST:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/2374-q-1a-MARKED-HIGHERCONTRAST.jpg

raf
10-15-2008, 04:26 PM
it are several handwriting and numbers as I can understand

KivaSupporter
10-15-2008, 07:04 PM
Wow! Thanks, Raf. This is really interesting. I was looking for words and numbers similar in size to the legible parts of the letter.

Now it looks like the obliterated text includes some large-size words and numbers and some tiny words and numbers.

On the right of the first obliterated line, I see the numbers 341 237 3873 or 341 237 3874. Area code 341 is an old area code which shows overlay on 510 which refers to 925. 925 is defined as: California: Contra Costa area: Antioch, Concord, Pleasanton, Walnut Creek (split from 510)

http://www.bennetyee.org/ucsd-pages/area.html#510

So, the number becomes 925-237-3873 or 925-237-3874.

The reverse number search shows these telephone numbers are in Antioch, CA.


http://www.reversephonedetective.com/searchresults.php?p=925-237-3874

I also see 38230 on the second line of the first obliterated text. That could be the zip code for Greenfield, Tennessee.

Now, the question is what does it all mean, if anything?



it are several handwriting and numbers as I can understand

Dr. Doogie
10-16-2008, 02:05 AM
I don't believe that 925 split off from 510 until the 1990's. In the 1970's, I believe that the operative area codes were 415 (SF and the Pennisula), 510 (All East Bay), 408 (San Jose area) and 707 (Marin, Sonoma county and the coastal areas north to the Oregon border).

Dr. Doogie
10-16-2008, 02:08 AM
By the way, how large is the handwriting that is unchanged on the postcard? If it is "normal" size, then these "covered" numbers and words must be microscopic.

raf
10-16-2008, 02:55 AM
Wow! Thanks, Raf. This is really interesting. I was looking for words and numbers similar in size to the legible parts of the letter.

Now it looks like the obliterated text includes some large-size words and numbers and some tiny words and numbers.

On the right of the first obliterated line, I see the numbers 341 237 3873 or 341 237 3874. Area code 341 is an old area code which shows overlay on 510 which refers to 925. 925 is defined as: California: Contra Costa area: Antioch, Concord, Pleasanton, Walnut Creek (split from 510)

http://www.bennetyee.org/ucsd-pages/area.html#510

So, the number becomes 925-237-3873 or 925-237-3874.

The reverse number search shows these telephone numbers are in Antioch, CA.


http://www.reversephonedetective.com/searchresults.php?p=925-237-3874

I also see 38230 on the second line of the first obliterated text. That could be the zip code for Greenfield, Tennessee.

Now, the question is what does it all mean, if anything?
Hi, it are several numbers, and seeming a sort of numerology phrase...
this I can read:
39...223
54...37
342237387
88577328
....77
47040
98973..3
3777398522
and this words:
Larry L..tsesles
Mas..all
...akland
the language is not english.. but strange words as eifee...
all write in very little size and on other more large and also transversal....

bye, raf

KivaSupporter
10-16-2008, 09:37 AM
The size seems to be comparable to the size of letters and numbers on a postmark, maybe a bit smaller.


By the way, how large is the handwriting that is unchanged on the postcard? If it is "normal" size, then these "covered" numbers and words must be microscopic.

KivaSupporter
10-16-2008, 09:39 AM
Thank you for the clarification.

So, if I understand it correctly, if that were a phone number, it would be somewhere in California?



I don't believe that 925 split off from 510 until the 1990's. In the 1970's, I believe that the operative area codes were 415 (SF and the Pennisula), 510 (All East Bay), 408 (San Jose area) and 707 (Marin, Sonoma county and the coastal areas north to the Oregon border).

Annasmom
10-16-2008, 08:16 PM
Wow! Thanks, Raf. This is really interesting. I was looking for words and numbers similar in size to the legible parts of the letter.

Now it looks like the obliterated text includes some large-size words and numbers and some tiny words and numbers.

On the right of the first obliterated line, I see the numbers 341 237 3873 or 341 237 3874. Area code 341 is an old area code which shows overlay on 510 which refers to 925. 925 is defined as: California: Contra Costa area: Antioch, Concord, Pleasanton, Walnut Creek (split from 510)

http://www.bennetyee.org/ucsd-pages/area.html#510

So, the number becomes 925-237-3873 or 925-237-3874.

The reverse number search shows these telephone numbers are in Antioch, CA.


http://www.reversephonedetective.com/searchresults.php?p=925-237-3874

I also see 38230 on the second line of the first obliterated text. That could be the zip code for Greenfield, Tennessee.

Now, the question is what does it all mean, if anything?
Social Security numbers? (nine digits)...Swiss bank accounts?

Cubby
10-17-2008, 01:17 AM
Wow raf! How did you do that?

I see two things you posted... I see the 98973 and the 47040. Being 5 digits, I wonder if they are postal zip codes. Is there a numerical zip code directory with city and state? (too late for me to search... now)

I also noticed an unusual similarity to one of the documents with GB's handwriting. I see a gfge in black,bottom left of top pink area just after the white lettering. The f appears to have the same hand written appearance we have seen before.Was that GB or GW with that unusual written f? Not sure if that makes a difference other than to stand out at me that GB possibly had some influence over Seka for a period of time..until she made the choice to sever ties.

Could the gfge be an abbreviation for George? Could she have been taking notes from him and the first thing she found to write on was this postcard so she wrote tiny for space?

raf
10-17-2008, 02:22 AM
Wow raf! How did you do that?

I see two things you posted... I see the 98973 and the 47040. Being 5 digits, I wonder if they are postal zip codes. Is there a numerical zip code directory with city and state? (too late for me to search... now)

I also noticed an unusual similarity to one of the documents with GB's handwriting. I see a gfge in black,bottom left of top pink area just after the white lettering. The f appears to have the same hand written appearance we have seen before.Was that GB or GW with that unusual written f? Not sure if that makes a difference other than to stand out at me that GB possibly had some influence over Seka for a period of time..until she made the choice to sever ties.

Could the gfge be an abbreviation for George? Could she have been taking notes from him and the first thing she found to write on was this postcard so she wrote tiny for space?
Hi Cubby, it is a partial work, because it are many numbers also...
for what I understand it are almost 2 handwriting of 2 persons..one on other; the 2 little handwriting are the firsts, and on .. other more large....
the handwritings in little size- and sure 1 is of GB or both... in little size as a myopic person...
they are essentially numbers used as words, and some word :it are almost 2 gfge word and also other "f" and "Y"as GB handwriting... the words are no comprensible, and only some word is in english as "the-refine-add-call-Mrs" also, above, a partial name: Larry L....sesles ( Larry Lutsesles ? ??? :confused:) .... but maybe I'm in error...
regards, raf

KivaSupporter
10-17-2008, 11:23 AM
Maybe the small-size writing was written on another piece of paper and the postcard was underneath so there is an impression on the postcard. ???



Hi Cubby, it is a partial work, because it are many numbers also...
for what I understand it are almost 2 handwriting of 2 persons..one on other; the 2 little handwriting are the firsts, and on .. other more large....
the handwritings in little size- and sure 1 is of GB or both... in little size as a myopic person...
they are essentially numbers used as words, and some word :it are almost 2 gfge word and also other "f" and "Y"as GB handwriting... the words are no comprensible, and only some word is in english as "the-refine-add-call-Mrs" also, above, a partial name: Larry L....sesles ( Larry Lutsesles ? ??? :confused:) .... but maybe I'm in error...
regards, raf

raf
10-17-2008, 11:45 AM
Maybe the small-size writing was written on another piece of paper and the postcard was underneath so there is an impression on the postcard. ???
It is possible.....
maybe knowing the numerology, the numbers meaning somethings.....
bye, raf

Annasmom
10-18-2008, 01:00 PM
Maybe the small-size writing was written on another piece of paper and the postcard was underneath so there is an impression on the postcard. ???
I just received the postcard back from Forensic Document Examiners yesterday. My problem is that the entire scribbled-put part is no more than an inch and a half in width. GB's writing was HUGE, possibly because of problems with eyesight (some examples are posted previously.) The postmark from Beograd is marked 21 VII 78, 11109, and there is a San Francisco stamp showing that it was received 28 July, 1978. Part of the writing is OVER the Beograd stamp, indicating that it was scribbled there after the card had been posted.

SideKick
10-20-2008, 07:08 PM
Hi KivaSupporter,

I may have totally missed this, but, did you hear back from the man who knew someone in Sradin who 'may' know the locals of the day?

Best you,

SKick.

Annasmom
11-01-2008, 09:54 PM
Since we've tried the high-tech solutions and I have good scans of the scribbled-out words on the Seka postcard, I thought I'd try a low-tech solution and just try lightly erasing the top layer. Here's what I got. Does anyone see anything here? It occurred to me that it might be Greek, at least the bottom word, which could be KEPHALONIA (the Greek "Phi" in the place of the "Ph.)

youshouldveknown
11-02-2008, 12:27 AM
I took the scan and made it larger and messed with the contrast. I can make out the KEPHALONIA but nothing on top really, besides a V. Can you guys make anything out?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/anniesometimes/Postcard2.jpg

momto3kids
11-02-2008, 01:16 AM
Since we've tried the high-tech solutions and I have good scans of the scribbled-out words on the Seka postcard, I thought I'd try a low-tech solution and just try lightly erasing the top layer. Here's what I got. Does anyone see anything here? It occurred to me that it might be Greek, at least the bottom word, which could be KEPHALONIA (the Greek "Phi" in the place of the "Ph.)
Annasmom,

Have you turned it over, held it up against a bright light, or laid it on top of something bright and tried to read it from the back? I have done this with documents that are scribbled on top. Sometimes just 1 letter or number will become more obvious this way.

Annasmom
11-02-2008, 03:40 PM
Annasmom,

Have you turned it over, held it up against a bright light, or laid it on top of something bright and tried to read it from the back? I have done this with documents that are scribbled on top. Sometimes just 1 letter or number will become more obvious this way.
The picture on the reverse of the card obscures this. I tried light pencil rubbing, bright sunlight. Whatever it is seems to be in quotation marks; the bottom word begins with a K and ends with an A. I don't really think this is teeny writing; what I can see seems normal size and is consistent with GW's handwriting. My best guess is that this Seka was someone he was interested in, but who bailed after he tried to recruit her as a Brody devotee. If KivaSupporter is able to get any information from her friend back in the old country, this might help fill in the picture. I also believe Seka was somehow associated with one of the clinics, either as a patient or possibly as a volunteer, but this is just my guess. At any rate, I do not believe she played an important role in the Anna saga..it's just part of the GB/GW mystery which we would like to unravel.

SherlockJr
11-02-2008, 08:04 PM
The picture on the reverse of the card obscures this. I tried light pencil rubbing, bright sunlight. Whatever it is seems to be in quotation marks; the bottom word begins with a K and ends with an A. I don't really think this is teeny writing; what I can see seems normal size and is consistent with GW's handwriting. My best guess is that this Seka was someone he was interested in, but who bailed after he tried to recruit her as a Brody devotee. If KivaSupporter is able to get any information from her friend back in the old country, this might help fill in the picture. I also believe Seka was somehow associated with one of the clinics, either as a patient or possibly as a volunteer, but this is just my guess. At any rate, I do not believe she played an important role in the Anna saga..it's just part of the GB/GW mystery which we would like to unravel.

Could it read Komarnica?

Annasmom
11-02-2008, 09:20 PM
Could it read Komarnica?

Certainly it's possible. When you Google Komarnica (Croatia), you also see a town called Brodski not too far off..Where are you, KivaSupporter? We need you.

KivaSupporter
11-02-2008, 11:23 PM
Hi KivaSupporter,

I may have totally missed this, but, did you hear back from the man who knew someone in Sradin who 'may' know the locals of the day?

Best you,

SKick.

We are still in touch. He is following a lead to the person who probably knew Seka and Seka's family.

KivaSupporter
11-02-2008, 11:34 PM
Certainly it's possible. When you Google Komarnica (Croatia), you also see a town called Brodski not too far off..Where are you, KivaSupporter? We need you.

Actually, there is more than one Komarnica.

I believe that it is more likely it is the one in Montenegro (Crna Gora) which used to be a part of Serbia. It is a very rugged and beautiful part of the country. Komarnica is a village. There is also a river Komarnica and a cave Komarnica, all close to each other. The area is located in the southeast of former Yugoslavia, relatively close to Greece (approx. 200 miles).

I wonder why that was written on the postcard.


http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/78689081.jpg

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/111.jpg


http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/montenegro-21.jpg

The red dot on the map shows where the Komarnica village is located.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/map1.png

Dr. Doogie
11-03-2008, 01:58 PM
If it is the word "Komarnica" and it is in Brody's handwriting, the question of why he would write that word is curious. But more directly, that seems like a word that would not normally be familar to someone with Brody's suposed educational level. For him to have spelled the word correctly without any previous exposure to it seems unlikely. (I recognize that I am assuming that the word IS spelled correctly even though we cannot completely decipher the scribble. It is just that from what we can decipher, it appears correct. I find that odd.)

KivaSupporter
11-03-2008, 03:00 PM
If it is the word "Komarnica" and it is in Brody's handwriting, the question of why he would write that word is curious. But more directly, that seems like a word that would not normally be familar to someone with Brody's suposed educational level. For him to have spelled the word correctly without any previous exposure to it seems unlikely. (I recognize that I am assuming that the word IS spelled correctly even though we cannot completely decipher the scribble. It is just that from what we can decipher, it appears correct. I find that odd.)

I agree it is very, very odd.

Komarnica is an area where people go hiking and kayaking. Other than that, it is not a tourist spot. It is a very rugged terrain. Even most people in former Yugoslavia don't know about it. The village of Komarnica is rather small. There is no industry there. I imagine people have small gardens, chickens, pigs, goats, and one or two cows. I cannot imagine how G. would have known about it, unless Seka had told him. Maybe she had some relatives there, possibly grandparents. But even if she had told him about it, why would he write it down?

Here is how one person from the area describes it:
"Somewhat neglected natural phenomenon is the canyon of the river Komarnica and its most beautiful part, the unreachable Nevideo (which means Never Seen). (It is difficult to reach and only a few have done it.) It is beside the village of the same name as the river. This is the village from which most of the Durmitorians come. This is the village from which the people often immigrated to Virak and Zabljak settlements. Nowadays it is somehow the end of the world. Almost nobody comes. Local residents live quietly, undisturbed by all the madness and tempo of civilization to which the urban people belong."

I am very much interested in what others think.

The road to Komarnica. Unpaved and rarely travelled.
http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/P71902511.jpg

Annasmom
11-04-2008, 09:18 PM
I agree it is very, very odd.

Komarnica is an area where people go hiking and kayaking. Other than that, it is not a tourist spot. It is a very rugged terrain. Even most people in former Yugoslavia don't know about it. The village of Komarnica is rather small. There is no industry there. I imagine people have small gardens, chickens, pigs, goats, and one or two cows. I cannot imagine how G. would have known about it, unless Seka had told him. Maybe she had some relatives there, possibly grandparents. But even if she had told him about it, why would he write it down?

Here is how one person from the area describes it:
"Somewhat neglected natural phenomenon is the canyon of the river Komarnica and its most beautiful part, the unreachable Nevideo (which means Never Seen). (It is difficult to reach and only a few have done it.) It is beside the village of the same name as the river. This is the village from which most of the Durmitorians come. This is the village from which the people often immigrated to Virak and Zabljak settlements. Nowadays it is somehow the end of the world. Almost nobody comes. Local residents live quietly, undisturbed by all the madness and tempo of civilization to which the urban people belong."

I am very much interested in what others think.

The road to Komarnica. Unpaved and rarely travelled.
http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/KivaSupporter/P71902511.jpg
If the population is isolated, I suppose there's some possibility that GW might have been interested in medical research there...similar to that which he did on the Greek island of Euboeia, on which many women have thyroid problems which apparently are genetic. Almost anything is a wild guess at this point. Your pictures are beautifuil, however.

SherlockJr
11-05-2008, 11:28 AM
Could it read Komarnica?

This is only a wild guess. Annasmom believed the word started with a "K" and ended with an "A". There may be other places that start with K and end with A. Could it also be more than one word with the last word being Ann"a"?


If it is the word "Komarnica" and it is in Brody's handwriting, the question of why he would write that word is curious. But more directly, that seems like a word that would not normally be familar to someone with Brody's suposed educational level. For him to have spelled the word correctly without any previous exposure to it seems unlikely. (I recognize that I am assuming that the word IS spelled correctly even though we cannot completely decipher the scribble. It is just that from what we can decipher, it appears correct. I find that odd.)

My hunch is that is in GW's handwriting.

raf
11-05-2008, 12:05 PM
Thinking abt Seka name, as surname, it are some women with Seka surname, also in Oakland (a Psychologist (http://www.bullies2buddies.com/news/bias-shackling-psychology_2007_12.html) and a Artist (http://buldanseka.com/a_largerthanlife.html) in Berkeley, born in Yugoslavia) ... so it is possible that, really, Seka was a surname and not a nickname( little sister)???
All the best,
raf

one_hooah_wife
06-27-2009, 10:51 PM
Hi all! I've been lurking and researching for a few weeks now. I am so impressed by the quality of research that has been done here ... and the genuine comradery that has developed between you all! It is refreshing to see a group of people really working for the same goal ... so unlike what goes on in many of the other discussions here on WS.

I know that there is no way I can be as squared away as most of you on the specifics of this very complex case ... however, I wanted to toss out a few thoughts and observations.

When I started reading about GB's interest in the esoteric, specifically numerology ... I immediately thought of Kabbalah. Annasmom mentioned somewhere that some of the documents were literally written in Greek. So, I started searching in that area ... Greek Qabalah. Many scholars believe that it is the "grandfather" of Hebrew Kabbalah.

I know that someone else has touched on this regarding the name Eifee or the mirror of the word ... (by the way ... I found something on a Danish or Norwegian site that translated Eifee into 'toughie' or 'rigor') anyway, SeKa is Greek for "10" or "teen"... it is used frequently in the numerology practiced in Qabalah. I know that Seka is not an uncommon name in Croatia ... so it is of course possible that is her real given name ... but I thought that it might as easily be a better numerological name than her given name and therefore Mr. George "assigned" it to her.

One more thing ... and this does not belong in this thread ... I will try to put a note where it needs to be when I get Emma down for the night ...

I read in a very early post where someone used numerology on GB and ACEW ... and they did not come out to the same number. I was really surprised because I checked that out when I first started reading this board ... it was almost a reflex! The gadget that I used did have the same value for both names but it wasn't 27 or 29 as GB said ... it was 4.

Here is the site that I used
http://www.paulsadowski.com/Numbers.asp
You entered: george brody There are 11 letters in your name.
Those 11 letters total to 67
There are 4 vowels and 7 consonants in your name.
Your number is: 4
The characteristics of #4 are: A foundation, order, service, struggle against limits, steady growth.
The expression or destiny for #4: (blah blah blah)



You entered: anna christian eifee watersThere are 24 letters in your name.
Those 24 letters total to 112
There are 11 vowels and 13 consonants in your name.
Your number is: 4 (so on and so forth)

Annasmom
06-28-2009, 02:24 AM
Hi all! I've been lurking and researching for a few weeks now. I am so impressed by the quality of research that has been done here ... and the genuine comradery that has developed between you all! It is refreshing to see a group of people really working for the same goal ... so unlike what goes on in many of the other discussions here on WS.

When I started reading about GB's interest in the esoteric, specifically numerology ... I immediately thought of Kabbalah. Annasmom mentioned somewhere that some of the documents were literally written in Greek. So, I started searching in that area ... Greek Qabalah. Many scholars believe that it is the "grandfather" of Hebrew Kabbalah.

I know that someone else has touched on this regarding the name Eifee or the mirror of the word ... (by the way ... I found something on a Danish or Norwegian site that translated Eifee into 'toughie' or 'rigor') anyway, SeKa is Greek for "10" or "teen"... it is used frequently in the numerology practiced in Qabalah. I know that Seka is not an uncommon name in Croatia ... so it is of course possible that is her real given name ... but I thought that it might as easily be a better numerological name than her given name and therefore Mr. George "assigned" it to her.

I read in a very early post where someone used numerology on GB and ACEW ... and they did not come out to the same number. I was really surprised because I checked that out when I first started reading this board ... it was almost a reflex! The gadget that I used did have the same value for both names but it wasn't 27 or 29 as GB said ... it was 4.


Welcome, and thanks for your post. Happy reunion in two months! Interesting that even though this system of numerology comes up with a different number than GB's "27", at least his name and Anna's produce the same number. One minor correction regarding the Greek: The number for ten is Deka, not Seka. I have never heard of a Greek kabbalah and wonder if it refers somehow to Pythagoras (about whom I know almost nothing except maybe that he did think numbers had mystical properties.) Some of GW's notes were written in Greek letters just as a kind of code, but he was not proficient in Greek and I don't think GB knew any at all.

Yes, the camaraderie on this thread is something truly inspiring. I have only met one WSer face to face (apart from Doogie, who is a friend of the family from way back) but certainly the people on this forum have been wonderful friends to me. We have literally ruled out a thousand scenarios for what might have happened to Anna, and with each possibility we have examined, a little more light is shed on the mystery of Anna's disappearance.

one_hooah_wife
06-28-2009, 05:59 PM
Welcome, and thanks for your post. Happy reunion in two months! Interesting that even though this system of numerology comes up with a different number than GB's "27", at least his name and Anna's produce the same number. One minor correction regarding the Greek: The number for ten is Deka, not Seka. I have never heard of a Greek kabbalah and wonder if it refers somehow to Pythagoras (about whom I know almost nothing except maybe that he did think numbers had mystical properties.) Some of GW's notes were written in Greek letters just as a kind of code, but he was not proficient in Greek and I don't think GB knew any at all.

Yes, the camaraderie on this thread is something truly inspiring. I have only met one WSer face to face (apart from Doogie, who is a friend of the family from way back) but certainly the people on this forum have been wonderful friends to me. We have literally ruled out a thousand scenarios for what might have happened to Anna, and with each possibility we have examined, a little more light is shed on the mystery of Anna's disappearance.


Thanks Annasmom ... I feel so silly now! Of course deka is the number 10 in Greek! Somewhere along the way I forgot ... that and how to spell camaraderie! :crazy: I posted below what I was looking at when I thought that Seka was 10 or teen. After I read you post, I realized what the problem was ... the lowercase symbol for the letter D ... looks like an "s" ... I guess that the sources that refer to SeKa, in this way, must have the translation wrong?? To further the confusion, the search engines read the lowercase delta as an "S."

Snipped from http://www.archive.org/stream/guidetomoderngre00geldiala/guidetomoderngre00geldiala_djvu.txt

SeKuTrevre : SeKa, kin to decem, Gothic taihun, German
our ten ; irevre for 7T/x7re, German funf for fumf, our five for
fife, and that for finf. Hence SeKaTreVre = ten + five =
'fifteen.'

Numerology and Qabalah ... Kabbalah even ... are not at all my kind of thing ... but I find the people who are believers fascinating to study!

You mentioned Pythagorus ... Greek Qabalah is definitely based on his works ... and the numerology used in Greek Qabalah is the Pythagoream Method.

http://books.google.com/books?id=w70rWN_-ANAC&printsec=frontcover&vq=numerology

I was interested to find out if the numerology name analyzer that I used earlier on GB and ACEW's names used Pythagorean Numerology

I found instructions here:
http://www.aboutnumerology.com/learnnumerology3.php


anna christian eifee waters
1551 389912915 59655 512591

---------------------------

1+5+5+1=12 1+2=3

3+8+9+9+1+2+9+1+5 = 47 4+7=11 1+1=2

5+9+6+5+5=30 3+0=3

5+1+2+5+9+1= 23 2+3=5
---------------------
3+2+3+5= 13 1+3=4

ACEW= 4

----------------------------------
george brody
756975 29647

7+5+6+9+7+5 = 39 3+9=12 1+2=3

2+9+6+4+7 = 28 2+8= 10 1+0=1

-----------------------------------

3+1=4

GB=4

So, it WAS Pythagorean Numerology that gave them the matching number of "4"!

Annasmom
06-29-2009, 07:10 PM
Numerology and Qabalah ... Kabbalah even ... are not at all my kind of thing ... but I find the people who are believers fascinating to study!

You mentioned Pythagorus ... Greek Qabalah is definitely based on his works ... and the numerology used in Greek Qabalah is the Pythagorean Method...


So, it WAS Pythagorean Numerology that gave them the matching number of "4"!

Dear OHW,
You have obviously put some time into this, and I really appreciate it. I don't know what it means. I took a look at the book you mentioned, and it certainly covers a lot of ground....What it all means, I cannot tell. You never know how these bits of information may come into play, however.

Pink Panther
09-12-2009, 04:20 PM
Seka is also a Japanese name...It means "wonderful":

http://www.babybobbi.com/name_details.asp?itemID=180504

Cubby
03-23-2010, 02:50 PM
bumping to the front page.

Annasmom
07-28-2010, 01:53 PM
We have a contact through Facebook who lives in the area the mysterious Seka came from. We had pretty much reached a dead end in our search for this woman who corresponded with the Georges. Our new contact knows media people in that part of the world and is preparing a news release asking anybody who might have known Seka to come forward. I'm hoping our contact will be able to join WebSleuths soon so that you can hear directly what she is doing.

OzzieMum
07-28-2010, 04:55 PM
We have a contact through Facebook who lives in the area the mysterious Seka came from. We had pretty much reached a dead end in our search for this woman who corresponded with the Georges. Our new contact knows media people in that part of the world and is preparing a news release asking anybody who might have known Seka to come forward. I'm hoping our contact will be able to join WebSleuths soon so that you can hear directly what she is doing.

This is great news Annasmom.

SideKick
07-28-2010, 05:08 PM
This is great news Annasmom.

YIPPEE!
Fingers X'd

Cubby
07-28-2010, 06:05 PM
Excellent news Annasmom!

Is she still having troubles registering with WS? If so, please let me know off the forum her WS user name and the email address she is trying to register with. I will make sure to pass it onto the WS admin who is responsible for approving new members.

TY

Annasmom
07-31-2010, 03:49 PM
Excellent news Annasmom!

Is she still having troubles registering with WS? If so, please let me know off the forum her WS user name and the email address she is trying to register with. I will make sure to pass it onto the WS admin who is responsible for approving new members.

TY

We need Miss Marple!

MissMarple
08-01-2010, 06:55 AM
We need Miss Marple!

Finally!!! I so happy to be here.

My plan is based on the following premises: If you do not ask, you will never get the answer!!!

Someone somewhere knows who is Seka, and we will ask whoever needed to be asked in order to get the info.


P.S. English is not my first language and the despite the fact I have been learning and using the English language for about 25 years, I still have some problems....

Annasmom
08-01-2010, 09:55 AM
Finally!!! I so happy to be here.

My plan is based on the following premises: If you do not ask, you will never get the answer!!!

Someone somewhere knows who is Seka, and we will ask whoever needed to be asked in order to get the info.


P.S. English is not my first language and the despite the fact I have been learning and using the English language for about 25 years, I still have some problems....

Yay, hurray, welcome, MissMarple!

Cubby
08-01-2010, 02:05 PM
:Welcome-12-june:

Welcome to WS Miss Marple!
Thank you so much for your interest in Annas case.
I'm sure your English will be fine!

Looking forward to your idea's and info here to help find Seka.

MissMarple
08-01-2010, 04:08 PM
:Welcome-12-june:

Welcome to WS Miss Marple!
Thank you so much for your interest in Annas case.
I'm sure your English will be fine!

Looking forward to your idea's and info here to help find Seka.

Thank you, Cubby!

I learned about Anna's case at the end of April, because one day I was just wondering what happened with Madeleine McCann and wanted o find some info. I have started to read about Anna and especially, since the fact that someone from Serbia was somehow related to the case, I got got some ideas. I have noticed that one of the members posted about Seka on the Croatian and Serbian sites but no reasons why is she wanted. With no reason, people can hesitate, so my idea was to contact some Serbian magazines with a long tradition, which was done today, and to explain really why is Seka wanted. I agree with Annasmom about the text.

I have some promises that this text will be published and that we can find out who is she. The best solution would be if Seka makes contact by herself. I am pretty sure that she heard by now about Anna.

By reading all the posts in past days, I have a filling that a final clue is near; maybe once again we all need to take a fresh look about the all facts.

Cubby
08-01-2010, 05:03 PM
Thank you Miss Marple.

It would be wonderful to find Seka and have her share what she knew about the two Georges and if they ever shared any knowledge of Anna with her.

I hope to find that information.

thanks again.

SideKick
08-02-2010, 08:57 AM
:sunshine:

Welcome Miss Marple! Great to have you here on Anna's forum, looking forward to hopefully finding more about they mysterious Seka. I agree with you, someone knows Seka. I hope she comes forward and joins the forum, that.....would be awesome.

Sidekick

MissMarple
08-06-2010, 09:45 AM
YES!!!

The FIRST first Serbian magazine has just published the letter-a short story about Anna!!!!

This newspaper were my first target due to such a long tradition!!!!

Please check:

http://www.ilustrovana.com/pisma.php?broj=2690

P.S. It's Serbian language, but, maybe you will like it....

My job continues.....

MissMarple
08-06-2010, 10:27 AM
It is in chirilics...


Потрага за ћерком

Добили смо чудно писмо чију аутентичност нисмо могли до краја да проверимо. Али, како је реч о вапају мајке која већ више деценија покушава да пронађе ћерку, објављујемо га.

“Моја кћерка је нестала прије 37 година и зато најљубазније молим да ми помогнете и објавите моју причу.

Ен Кристијан Вотерс, моја кћерка, рођена у Сан Франциску 25. септембра 1967. године, нестала је 16. јануара 1973. у близини Халф Мун Беја, Калифорнија. У почетку и породица и полиција били су мишљења да се удавила у оближњем потоку, али ни након детаљне и вишемјесечне потраге, ниједан траг, који би подржао ту теорију, није пронађен.

То је мене и моју породицу навело да почнемо да сумњамо да можда Анин отуђени отац Џорџ Вотерс, по занимању доктор, и његов чудни пријатељ из тог времена Џорџ Броди, можда знају нешто о њеном нестанку.

Главни разлог мог обраћања јесте што тражим женску особу из Београда која би ми можда могла помоћи у проналажењу Ен, а која је 1976. године живјела у Сан Франциску. Њен надимак или, мање вјероватно, име је Сека, која има брата а љета је проводила са породицом у Скрадину, покрај Шибеника, и највјероватније потиче из добростојеће породице. Џорџ Броди ју је у писмима називао “Мој мали Тито”. О Секи сам сазнала након што је породица мог бившгег мужа предала сву његову документацију, с надом да у њој постоји нешто у вези са Ен.

С озбиром на чињеницу да су и Џорџ Вотерс и Џорџ Броди били прилично отуђени од људи и да је Сека у периоду од 1976. до 1978. била посебно специјална у њиховим животима, можда су пред њом споменули неку малу дјевојчицу или нешто слично, наравно, уколико су били умијешани у киднаповање и можда би ме тај траг довео до моје Ен. Такође, Сека би могла доста да ми помогне да сазнам ко је у ствари био Џорџ Броди.

Искрено се надам да ћете објавити моју причу и да ће ваши читаоци помоћи да пронађем Секу. Уколико су вам потребне додатне информације, молим вас да ме контактирате.

Срдачан поздрав,

Мишел Бенедикт, Монтара, Калифорнија, САД”

SideKick
08-06-2010, 11:36 AM
Thank you Miss Marple!

Croatian to English translationShow romanization
Searching for daughter

We received a strange letter, whose authenticity could not until the end to check. But since this is a cry of a mother who has several decades trying to find her daughter, publish it.

"My daughter went missing 37 years ago, so please kindly help me and publish my story.

En Christian Voters, my daughter was born in San Francisco 25th September 1967th years, disappeared on 16 January 1973rd near Half Moon Beja, California. Initially, the family and the police were of the opinion that drowned in a nearby creek, but even after months of detailed and searching, no clue, that would support this theory, were found.

This is me and my family have led us to start to suspect that perhaps Anne's estranged father, George Waters, a doctor by profession, and his strange friend from the time George boat, maybe they know something about her disappearance.

The main reason for my speech is that I am looking for a female person from Belgrade, which we may be able to help you find En, which in 1976. she lived in San Francisco. Her nickname, or, less likely, the name is Seka, who has a brother and summers spent with his family in Skradin, near Sibenik, and probably comes from a wealthy family. George ship it in a letter called "My little Tito." About Seki I learned after my family bivšgeg husband submitted all his documentation, with the hope that it is something related to En.

S ozbirom the fact that both George and George Waters ships were quite alienated from the people and that Seka in the period from 1976th to 1978. was particularly special in their lives, perhaps before it mentioned a little girl or something like that, of course, if you have been involved in kidnappings and perhaps the clue led me to my En. Also, Seka could enough to help me find out who was in fact George boat.

I sincerely hope that you will publish my story and will help your readers to find Seku. If you need additional information, please contact me.

Yours sincerely,
<name Annasmom>

MissMarple
08-06-2010, 12:09 PM
They decided, as explained to me, not to publish Anna's official website info or this site because of the false leads. real seka, or real people who knows her will recognize something without all necessary info.

This is the family magazin, with very long tradition. Belive me, in a paper copy, all of this looks much more better. I need to scan it.

SideKick
08-06-2010, 12:44 PM
Miss Marple, I have a question;

Do you know if the name 'Seka' is a common nickname in Croatia?
Is Sigrid a common female name over there?

I wonder how hard it would be to track down wealthy families in Belgrade/Sradin?

Some sir names stand out in the news as owners of companies/wealthy families etc...

Thanks in advance! SKick.

MissMarple
08-06-2010, 02:39 PM
Miss Marple, I have a question;

Do you know if the name 'Seka' is a common nickname in Croatia?
Is Sigrid a common female name over there?

I wonder how hard it would be to track down wealthy families in Belgrade/Sradin?

Some sir names stand out in the news as owners of companies/wealthy families etc...

Thanks in advance! SKick.

Nickname Seka is really common, both in Serbia and Croatia. I woud say that our Seka is Serbian, with a summer house in Croatia, which used to be usual for wealthy family, Croatia or Montenegro.

Sigrid is not a usual name, we, from ex Yugoslavia, would say, a foreign name, not "our name", norevgian, swedish...most probably.

It woud not be hard to track, but we need her last name. In that case I could track her in a day. I would say that she was wealthy because in 1976, in a comunisam era in Yugoslavia, she spoke English, had a summer house, and, if she was a student or postgraduate or similar, most probably woud be medicine, technical or similar, no social science for sure...

I really hope that we will have some response...I mean, she is near 60, small number of persons fits her decription...

I am exploring some new ideas also, will share with Annasmom and you...

I do not how but you can bet that we will find her!!!

SideKick
08-06-2010, 03:08 PM
[quote=MissMarple;5491245]Nickname Seka is really common, both in Serbia and Croatia. I woud say that our Seka is Serbian, with a summer house in Croatia, which used to be usual for wealthy family, Croatia or Montenegro.

Sigrid is not a usual name, we, from ex Yugoslavia, would say, a foreign name, not "our name", norevgian, swedish...most probably.

It woud not be hard to track, but we need her last name. In that case I could track her in a day. I would say that she was wealthy because in 1976, in a comunisam era in Yugoslavia, she spoke English, had a summer house, and, if she was a student or postgraduate or similar, most probably woud be medicine, technical or similar, no social science for sure...

I really hope that we will have some response...I mean, she is near 60, small number of persons fits her decription...

I am exploring some new ideas also, will share with Annasmom and you...

I do not how but you can bet that we will find her!!!


~~~
Miss Marple, again thank you for your enthusiasm, you've got me pumped!

On the letter, I will have to go and have another look, the post mark Belgrade, and Skradin the smaller town, are these near Montenegro? Seka's family would be residents of this town perhaps.

MissMarple
08-06-2010, 04:40 PM
[quote=MissMarple;5491245]Nickname Seka is really common, both in Serbia and Croatia. I woud say that our Seka is Serbian, with a summer house in Croatia, which used to be usual for wealthy family, Croatia or Montenegro.

Sigrid is not a usual name, we, from ex Yugoslavia, would say, a foreign name, not "our name", norevgian, swedish...most probably.

It woud not be hard to track, but we need her last name. In that case I could track her in a day. I would say that she was wealthy because in 1976, in a comunisam era in Yugoslavia, she spoke English, had a summer house, and, if she was a student or postgraduate or similar, most probably woud be medicine, technical or similar, no social science for sure...

I really hope that we will have some response...I mean, she is near 60, small number of persons fits her decription...

I am exploring some new ideas also, will share with Annasmom and you...

I do not how but you can bet that we will find her!!!

~~~
Miss Marple, again thank you for your enthusiasm, you've got me pumped!

On the letter, I will have to go and have another look, the post mark Belgrade, and Skradin the smaller town, are these near Montenegro? Seka's family would be residents of this town perhaps.

Belgrade is capital town of Serbia and skradin is near sibenik in Croatia. Not near, but with internet everything is so close. I will see whom to contact in Croatia. Only problem can be that war between sserbia and croatia about 18 years ago amny serbs never ever visited their summer houses in croatia.

I have seen the postcard, and I have noticed that she has funny way for the letter k in her signature. I wish we have more letters from her.

OzzieMum
08-06-2010, 08:10 PM
[quote=SideKick;5491327]

Belgrade is capital town of Serbia and skradin is near sibenik in Croatia. Not near, but with internet everything is so close. I will see whom to contact in Croatia. Only problem can be that war between sserbia and croatia about 18 years ago amny serbs never ever visited their summer houses in croatia.

I have seen the postcard, and I have noticed that she has funny way for the letter k in her signature. I wish we have more letters from her.

Hi MissMarple (love the name),

Welcome to WS and Anna's forum.

Do you know of any Serbian or Croatian blogs you might be able to post the above article on. Or maybe start a Facebook, Myspace page for Anna on the Serbian/Croatian sites.

Cubby
08-06-2010, 08:43 PM
[quote=MissMarple;5491691]

Hi MissMarple (love the name),

Welcome to WS and Anna's forum.

Do you know of any Serbian or Croatian blogs you might be able to post the above article on. Or maybe start a Facebook, Myspace page for Anna on the Serbian/Croatian sites.


excellent idea OzzieMum!

MissMarple
08-07-2010, 07:41 AM
[quote=MissMarple;5491691]

Hi MissMarple (love the name),

Welcome to WS and Anna's forum.

Do you know of any Serbian or Croatian blogs you might be able to post the above article on. Or maybe start a Facebook, Myspace page for Anna on the Serbian/Croatian sites.

Thank you OzzieMum.

I will work on that!!! Good idea!

Annasmom
08-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Miss Marple took a picture of the letter which was published. Here it is.

Cubby
08-21-2010, 05:50 PM
MissMarple, do you have any updates?
Has there been any response to the Montenegro media article?

Cubby
08-25-2010, 02:57 PM
I wish Miss Marple would come back and update us if any info came from this article.

Of course I am also curious if the article has a comments section. Not being able to read the language it is difficult to tell if there is a comments section readers may have been able to reply to or offer suggestions on assisting with the search.

Annasmom, you had mentioned you were in contact with Miss Marple via facebook. Perhaps you can send her a FB message with the link to this thread and ask her to please check in for an update.

thanks!

MissMarple
10-01-2010, 12:12 PM
Hi!!!!

I am back!

I had a hectic September after beautiful vacation,,,I hope to have more time as of today!!! Ready to explore new possibilities!!!

I an no longer on FB due to security reasons as asked by my company...which means more productivity...

Promise to returm soon with the new and fresh ideas!!!

smile22
05-18-2011, 11:51 AM
have we hit a dead end with skeka leads? she might be the key to solving this or could lead us into some direction

SideKick
05-19-2011, 01:27 PM
have we hit a dead end with skeka leads? she might be the key to solving this or could lead us into some direction

~ Smile, I agree with you, I too believe Seka is the key to alot of information. Wish we knew her 'real given name'. Seka may have only been used by Brody, therefore, no one would know who she is/was in Croatia land.

Any ideas!!

p.s. was there a mailbox the G's used? and was it closed down? Not that there would be any mail there but was wondering what happened to their mail box.

Do we have any other names of anyone who knew either George? nurse, friend, patient... ... Dr. ...?

MissMarple
06-11-2011, 03:38 AM
I have been trying during past year a lot to find out who she is but nothing...I was leaving messages on the various blogs, especially on the emigrants blogs but nothing...info on her is to general and due to war people are quiet...also. since she is an older person, younger population often have no clue about older generation...most probably she is not talking about George to anyone...But, HOPE that sooner or later shall be able to locate at least one person of her age in SF...

Annasmom
06-11-2011, 03:17 PM
I have been trying during past year a lot to find out who she is but nothing...I was leaving messages on the various blogs, especially on the emigrants blogs but nothing...info on her is to general and due to war people are quiet...also. since she is an older person, younger population often have no clue about older generation...most probably she is not talking about George to anyone...But, HOPE that sooner or later shall be able to locate at least one person of her age in SF... Thank you, MissMarple. I doubt whether she is in San Francisco; it seemed to me that she went back home and probably is still there.

MissMarple
06-12-2011, 04:22 AM
Thank you, MissMarple. I doubt whether she is in San Francisco; it seemed to me that she went back home and probably is still there.

I was also thinking on it. If she have seen the article in the most popular for decades a magazine in Serbia, she probably sealed her lips...

Firefly75
06-28-2011, 07:45 AM
No offense meant, this is just my opinion and thoughts.

"Sigrid" is a Germanic name (it comes up in German and Scandinavian languages, I believe) and it would have been quite rare in the former Yugoslavia.

A baby girl could have been named Sigrid if [one of] her parents were German, Austrian or Scandinavian by origin, or perhaps (but less likely) if she were born to Yugoslav parents working and living temporarily abroad (German-speaking or Scandinavian country), perhaps because they liked the name or called their child after a benefactor.

It was certainly not a common name in Yugoslavia (still isn't); most people couldn't figure out for sure what gender a "Sigrid" would be from the name itself, and an awful lot of them thought it was a corruption of the name "Siegfried".

A "Sigrid" wouldn't be nicknamed "Seka", but rather "Sigi" (or very, very rarely "Siga", usually because someone cannot get their head around the declension and corrupts the name to fit in with the easiest feminine declension). I think "seka" (meaning 'sister') would more likely be a nickname that a family might have for a person, which makes me wonder why someone would introduce herself as "Seka" to two people totally unrelated to her, and abroad as well (no familial connection) - unless it was her real name?

Again, no offense was meant, I just wanted to share some thoughts.

Odyssey
11-27-2011, 01:17 AM
It's been awhile... but I've just started digging again and I seem to remember that we thought Seka was a waitress at one of the restaurants... but I can't remember why we thought that.

Anyway, following that thought, I found a few names of people who were mentioned in news articles that were long time employees of Zim's. There was a Kim Vallianos (or Vallinos) who was a waitress at Zim's on 3490 California St for 19 years, and a Jean Roy who was a waitress at an unknown Zim's location for 19 years. Apparently after the last Zim's restaurant closed in 1991, they partnered with other longtime Zim's employees Andy Asvakovith and Jeffrew Lew and opened a new restaurant called Seva.

Also, Steve Zimmerman was an owner of Zim's, and now owns "Restaurant Realty" in San Francisco. They have a website.

Lastly, there was a big uprising in 1978 involving the Hotel and Restaurant Workers local #2 which included large protests and walk-outs against Zim's restaurants all across the city. I realize that Seka would already have been gone by 1978 but she still most likely was part of that union if she ever worked in that restaurant.

The San Francisco library has a collection called:

Collection Title:
Finding Aid to the Hotel & Restaurant Employees and Bartenders International Union Records, 1937-1980 Collection#: MS 458A

Collection contents include union histories; contracts; arbitration records; correspondence; minutes; by-laws; flyers; bulletins; official and rank-and-file newspapers; newspaper clippings; oral history transcripts and original sound recordings; audiocassettes; and ephemera.

Inquiries concerning these materials should be directed, in writing, to the Director of Research Collections, North Baker Research Library.

There are also some mentions on yelp by people claiming they used to work there, hang out there, etc...

Hope some of this info turns out to be useful... :) Good to see you all!

Amy74
11-28-2011, 12:13 AM
Nickname Seka is really common, both in Serbia and Croatia. I woud say that our Seka is Serbian, with a summer house in Croatia, which used to be usual for wealthy family, Croatia or Montenegro.

Sigrid is not a usual name, we, from ex Yugoslavia, would say, a foreign name, not "our name", norevgian, swedish...most probably.

It woud not be hard to track, but we need her last name. In that case I could track her in a day. I would say that she was wealthy because in 1976, in a comunisam era in Yugoslavia, she spoke English, had a summer house, and, if she was a student or postgraduate or similar, most probably woud be medicine, technical or similar, no social science for sure...

I really hope that we will have some response...I mean, she is near 60, small number of persons fits her decription...

I am exploring some new ideas also, will share with Annasmom and you...

I do not how but you can bet that we will find her!!!

If Miss Marple is still here...
Is there anyway to explore if there are physicians named Seka in the areas mentioned, or female physicians educated in San Francisco. I have no idea how it is done there, but in the US, physicians are licensed by state and there are typically online databases that will provide some basic info about them. It would make sense if she were a physician in training or resident and she could have met GW that way.

Odyssey
11-28-2011, 03:38 AM
Miss Marple,

Are you able to isolate a neighborhood in Belgrade from the postal code 11109? I found a list of Belgrade neighborhoods on wiki but they do not have corresponding postal codes. When I tried to search using the postal code, I found nothing in English.

If we could find a neighborhood, maybe we could find a high school... or a church or something. If they were a prominent family, someone might remember her... hopefully it is a small neighborhood.

Any help would be appreciated!

Annasmom
11-28-2011, 12:51 PM
If Miss Marple is still here...
Is there anyway to explore if there are physicians named Seka in the areas mentioned, or female physicians educated in San Francisco. I have no idea how it is done there, but in the US, physicians are licensed by state and there are typically online databases that will provide some basic info about them. It would make sense if she were a physician in training or resident and she could have met GW that way.
Amy, I don't believe GW was in a job where he would have had contact with physicians in training. He was mostly doing emergency-room and neighborhood clinic work, not working in a teaching hospital. I haven't seen Miss Marple here in quite a long time, but she was such a valuable helper, I hope she comes back. Thank you for your post.

Annasmom
11-28-2011, 12:54 PM
Miss Marple,

Are you able to isolate a neighborhood in Belgrade from the postal code 11109? I found a list of Belgrade neighborhoods on wiki but they do not have corresponding postal codes. When I tried to search using the postal code, I found nothing in English.

If we could find a neighborhood, maybe we could find a high school... or a church or something. If they were a prominent family, someone might remember her... hopefully it is a small neighborhood.

Any help would be appreciated!

Odyssey, I am amazed at what you have turned up. I see that there is a Pacifica address for Kim Vallianos (a Greek name). I don't know whether there could be any connection with the health care worker with whom GW had such a long phone conversation the day GB died. Pacifica is rather a small town.

KivaSupporter
11-28-2011, 01:37 PM
Are you able to isolate a neighborhood in Belgrade from the postal code 11109? I found a list of Belgrade neighborhoods on wiki but they do not have corresponding postal codes. When I tried to search using the postal code, I found nothing in English.

The post office which handles zip code 11109 is located at Bulevar Kralja Aleksandra 121.

Go to Google maps and type in Bulevar Kralja Aleksandra 121, Belgrade. The address will be marked as A.

If you need anything translated from Serbian, I would be glad to do it.

HTH

KivaSupporter
11-28-2011, 02:06 PM
The post office for zip code 11109 is located in Zvezdara.

Information about Zvezdara here in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvezdara_II#Zvezdara_II

SideKick
11-28-2011, 02:21 PM
Are you able to isolate a neighborhood in Belgrade from the postal code 11109? I found a list of Belgrade neighborhoods on wiki but they do not have corresponding postal codes. When I tried to search using the postal code, I found nothing in English.

The post office which handles zip code 11109 is located at Bulevar Kralja Aleksandra 121.

Go to Google maps and type in Bulevar Kralja Aleksandra 121, Belgrade. The address will be marked as A.

If you need anything translated from Serbian, I would be glad to do it.

HTH

Wow. this is wonderful...
I have emailed Steve Zimmerman, son of Mr. Zimmerman who opened the restaurants to see if he recalled the George's... Or.... if they took Anna there...(doubtful), if he recognizes her as well. Hope he writes me back.

SideKick
11-28-2011, 02:41 PM
The post office for zip code 11109 is located in Zvezdara.

Information about Zvezdara here in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvezdara_II#Zvezdara_II

~ Do we know what Seka was studying in San Fran? Do you think she is a nurse? I don't recall that we did know but just in case... If you google Zvezdara and Seka... several Seka's come up.

Cubby
11-28-2011, 03:22 PM
The post office for zip code 11109 is located in Zvezdara.

Information about Zvezdara here in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvezdara_II#Zvezdara_II

thank you! This might be a start for gathering enough info on Seka to start a thread at City Data. If we can compile what we know about Seka, that she knew the two G's during what time (what mo's and yr's) had been nicknamed Seka or Little Tito? (or did GB call Anna little tito?) and that she had sent a postcard to Mr. George at X address.... That she may have met GW and GB through GW's affiliation with names of hospitals he worked at, or at names or restaurants we know they frequented, to please contact us or something along those lines.

Even if she does not reply, perhaps someone from Zvezdara will reply and offer suggestions of avenues to research or be willing to do some research for us if they are still local.

Can someone help with compiling this information?

tia

Odyssey
11-28-2011, 03:52 PM
The post office for zip code 11109 is located in Zvezdara.

Information about Zvezdara here in English:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvezdara_II#Zvezdara_II


Thanks so much! It looks like Zvezdara is a neighborhood as well as a municipality. The neighborhood of Zvezdara had 55000 people as of 2002 (so surely much less in the 70's) and the municipality had 112000 in the 70's.

I tried searching "Zvezdara High School" on Google but nothing jumped out at me except for this "Medicinska Skola, Veljka Dugosevica 11050, Beograd". I'm guessing this is a medical school.

I'm sure there were other schools... I guess this is the most well known one though.

Modified to add: It appears the proper Serbian way of using the postal code is "Posta 11109 Beograd 14". I tried searching this and some yellow pages sites came up but I didn't click on any of them, I couldn't tell if they were legitimate sites.

SideKick
11-28-2011, 03:58 PM
Wow. this is wonderful...
I have emailed Steve Zimmerman, son of Mr. Zimmerman who opened the restaurants to see if he recalled the George's... Or.... if they took Anna there...(doubtful), if he recognizes her as well. Hope he writes me back.

~~ Followup:
Mr. Zimmerman returned my call, he does recognize both G's as they were regular customer's at Zimms. He does not know anything about them.

Cubby
11-28-2011, 04:03 PM
~~ Followup:
Mr. Zimmerman returned my call, he does recognize both G's as they were regular customer's at Zimms. He does not know anything about them.


Wow, well that is good news. Even though he doesn't know anything about them, it is good to know after so many years he still recognizes/remembers them. That should be encouraging that if we are able to find Seka, she too will remember the two G's.

SideKick
11-28-2011, 04:11 PM
Good old Facebook has a page on Zvezdara.... I have joined the group however in the meantime, the creator of the page was listed and I have messaged him on Facebook (privately) if he knew a Seka who studied in San Fran in 1978-ish.... fingers crossed!

SideKick
11-28-2011, 04:13 PM
Wow, well that is good news. Even though he doesn't know anything about them, it is good to know after so many years he still recognizes/remembers them. That should be encouraging that if we are able to find Zeka, she too will remember the two G's.

:crazy: I agree Cubby, I almost fell out of chair when I read the email! OMG...perhaps it is a good sign?

Odyssey
11-28-2011, 04:21 PM
Didn't we think at some point that Seka was a waitress, maybe at Zim's?

I can't remember why we thought that, if that was just a "could've been" or if we really had a reason to think that.

I do remember a mention of her working with someone named Mike...

SideKick
11-28-2011, 04:35 PM
OH I had forgotten about the Mike fella...!

Cubby
11-28-2011, 05:13 PM
I have no recollection of "Mike" that Seka worked with, however I never focused too much on Seka because others were always sleuthing that angle.

I'm really excited about the FB page you found SideKick.

If someone could please compile the info we have on Seka here, I would be happy to start a thread for her, with that info, at City Data.

FWIW, I don't know that we ever determined where Seka worked, or why she was in SF, or even how she met the two G's. IIRC, most was speculation. But I could be wrong, which is again why I am making the request for the info we have compiled on Seka. What is fact, and what is speculation, and I will definately start a thread for her at CD.

tia

Odyssey
11-28-2011, 07:32 PM
now that I think of it... I wonder what the possibility is that Seka didn't live in the area where the postmark was from... after all, who sends a postcard from their home? Most people, at least in the US, would send a letter from home or send a postcard while vacationing/traveling.

So maybe I would also be asking if there is a resort / vacation community in that area of Belgrade... just a thought.

Annasmom
11-29-2011, 01:21 PM
~~ Followup:
Mr. Zimmerman returned my call, he does recognize both G's as they were regular customer's at Zimms. He does not know anything about them.

I relayed this news and also Odyssey's and Kiva's recent findings to DrDoogie, whose computer is on the blink. Both of us are pretty astonished that you were able to sleuth out these facts. Thank you.

SideKick
11-29-2011, 02:26 PM
Didn't we think at some point that Seka was a waitress, maybe at Zim's?

I can't remember why we thought that, if that was just a "could've been" or if we really had a reason to think that.

I do remember a mention of her working with someone named Mike...

~~ Odyssey,
I emailed my Zimms contact again asking if a Seka also worked there and mentioned she knew a Mike... as of yet....no response. He may not want to get involved.

KivaSupporter
11-29-2011, 02:49 PM
I relayed this news and also Odyssey's and Kiva's recent findings to DrDoogie, whose computer is on the blink. Both of us are pretty astonished that you were able to sleuth out these facts. Thank you.

Hello, Annasmom.

You will probably remember we tried to find out if anyone in Skradin remembered Seka and her family. We were not able to get this information then.

What do you think about making a flyer which I could translate, find someone in or close to Skradin, e-mail it to him/her who would then make copies and post it and distribute it in Skradin? I would need help because I have no idea how to make a flyer. I would also like to ask you for permission to do it, if you agree.

SideKick
11-29-2011, 04:50 PM
I found this old post from Dr. Doogie:

Dr. Doogie03-21-2006, 02:17 PM
I have located George Waters' former supervisor at the clinic that he worked from 1970 until Feb. 1981. I will try and make contact with him today. I hope to accomplish two things: 1) see if he knows of any thing that he may have seen that would bolster the hypothesis that the GW was involved in Anna's disappearance, and 2) see if I can get a last name for "Seka", a co-worker of GW's that Brody attempted to draw under his influence. I would like to contact Seka and see what she knows about Brody.

I will post what I find..

Find:
I heard back from GW's supervisor and she stated that she new nothing about his personal life. He worked a night shift when there were no supervisors around and only one other doctor on duty. She also did not recall Brody being a patient or a Seka working for the clinic. Seka must have been a co-worker at one of the other jobs that GW had.

~~ In that case Seka MAY have worked in the medical field. Do you think Seka would travel from Belgrade/Skadrin area to school nursing or Doctorate in San Fran?

SideKick
11-29-2011, 04:54 PM
Another 2006 Post from Dr. D.

Dr. Doogie04-08-2006, 05:14 PM
No luck - Brody addressed the letters to her family as "Dear Friends". No address other than references to "Beograd".

I rereading the correspondence, it appears that Seka first arrived in San Francisco from Yugoslavia in 1976. Brody refers to her also by a nickname of "Little Tito". Shortly after her arrival, it appears that she began to drift away from Brody's influence, causing him to warn her about the emotional damage that would occur to her if he were to break ties with her (the ego of this man was stunning).

Yugoslavia!?

Full link for my 2 posts:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37212.html

Cubby
11-29-2011, 06:20 PM
There is some good information/discussion about Seka on page 21 of the first BFH thread.

Additionally, I found an old post of Annasmom, regarding a typed letter of GB's.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Box From Hell (BFH)



Two things come to mind here. Perhaps Seka and her parents were residing in SF at the time? It sounds from the typed letter above, that they were trying to prep/prepare Seka to move from her parents home into her own place. My guess is they were trying to seperate Seka from her relationship from her family, (typical of GB, imo).

It is also possible Seka's parents stayed at the hotel mentioned in the above typed letter when visiting.

It's possible that Seka was a student here living with her parents? It looks like she corresponded with the two G's from at least 1976 through 1978.

I think I can find enough information to start a thread at City data. I should have some more time to do that this weekend. Most likely Saturday. I'll try and have a thread set up at CD by early next week. I can always add additional info we uncover later..

Cubby
11-29-2011, 06:25 PM
Another thought. It is possible Seka new the two G's by their aliases. George Bee and George Wolf or Wolfe. We shouldn't narrow our inquiry/search to only the Brody and Waters names.

jmo

Annasmom
11-29-2011, 08:16 PM
Hello, Annasmom.

You will probably remember we tried to find out if anyone in Skradin remembered Seka and her family. We were not able to get this information then.

What do you think about making a flyer which I could translate, find someone in or close to Skradin, e-mail it to him/her who would then make copies and post it and distribute it in Skradin? I would need help because I have no idea how to make a flyer. I would also like to ask you for permission to do it, if you agree.

Of course you have my permission. DrDoogie made a flyer which we distributed along Purisima Creek Road. I'll see if I kept a copy of it and if I find it, I'll post it here.

KivaSupporter
11-29-2011, 08:32 PM
Of course you have my permission. DrDoogie made a flyer which we distributed along Purisima Creek Road. I'll see if I kept a copy of it and if I find it, I'll post it here.

I think we might be talking about different things. I am sorry for the confusion.

I was thinking about a flyer looking for Seka in Skradin, asking if anyone remembers her family and their beach house.

Annasmom
11-29-2011, 08:36 PM
I think these were posted some time ago, but since several questions have been asked about things in this correspondence, I am posting them again. The typed letter apparently was dictated to and typed by GW.

Annasmom
11-29-2011, 08:37 PM
I think we might be talking about different things. I am sorry for the confusion.

I was thinking about a flyer looking for Seka in Skradin, asking if anyone remembers her family and their beach house.

Oh, I misunderstood. Maybe you could use her card in a flyer?

KivaSupporter
11-29-2011, 08:41 PM
Oh, I misunderstood. Maybe you could use her card in a flyer?

Great idea. Then I could add a few sentences.

I hate to be so ignorant. Which program would be used? Word? I am afraid I need some guidance.

Thank you!

Odyssey
11-30-2011, 12:48 AM
Annasmom,

If you have an opportunity, can you please ask Doogie if we had evidence that Seka was a co-worker of GW, or if that was a speculation?

Also does anyone know if there were any other medical schools in SF at that time besides UCSF?

Thanks!!

Odyssey
11-30-2011, 02:35 AM
Another long shot here... going on the theory that Seka may have been a medical student... I started searching the California physician and nurse licenses for any names that sound like they could be Serbian. (A wiki article stated that most Serbian/Yugoslavian surnames end in "ic" so that's what I was looking for)

I found one named S88V88E88T88K88A G88R88S88K88O88V88I88C

(Ignore the 8's, I'm just trying to keep her name from showing up on a Google search that her patients may see) Anyway, she was licensed as an RN in San Francisco and currently works at Kaiser on Geary in SF. Her Kaiser profile says that she speaks Croatian (not sure if this is a plus or a minus, Seka should speak Serbian, right?), and has been in the SF Bay Area for 35 years (arriving circa 1975-1976), and with Kaiser for 30 (circa 1980-1981).

I could see how this first name could be understood as "Seka" by someone who may not be familiar with the Serbian names.

Again, total long shot.. but I thought it was worth mentioning since the timing also seems right.

Annasmom
11-30-2011, 03:08 AM
Great idea. Then I could add a few sentences.

I hate to be so ignorant. Which program would be used? Word? I am afraid I need some guidance.

Thank you!
How were you thinking of distributing the flyers? If someone there is going to print and distribute them, you need to use a program that person can open. Most people can open Word. We have a couple of graphic artists who have posted here previously...if they happen to hear that we need them, maybe they would have some helpful advice. I guess you would scan the post card as a JPG, then copy and paste it into a blank Word document and then add your sentences. I wish I could be more helpful, but I'm not very savvy about these things myself. I do appreciate your willingness.

Annasmom
11-30-2011, 03:10 AM
Annasmom,

If you have an opportunity, can you please ask Doogie if we had evidence that Seka was a co-worker of GW, or if that was a speculation?

Also does anyone know if there were any other medical schools in SF at that time besides UCSF?

Thanks!!
Odyssey, all we know about Seka is what was contained in the correspondence; everything else is speculation. UCSF is the only medical school in San Francisco, but I think it also has a campus in Davis, Calif.

KivaSupporter
11-30-2011, 10:45 AM
Croatian is very similar to Serbian and easily understood by Serbians and vice versa.

In most cases, Seka is a nickname both in Croatia and Serbia.

This person might know or has heard of Seka. It might be a good idea to contact her.

My belief is that Seka is living in the US.

HTH

KivaSupporter
11-30-2011, 10:50 AM
Annasmom, I was thinking of sending a copy of the flyer by e-mail. A person in Croatia could then print copies and distribute them.

I believe I can produce a flyer in Word.

Would you please give me your suggestion about what to say in the flyer? I will translate it into Croatian.

If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.

KivaSupporter
11-30-2011, 11:00 AM
Just to point out what we can learn from the postcard:

The postcard was sent from Belgrade.

Seka was staying with (visiting) her parents and brother in Belgrade.

They were planning to go soon to their summer house in Croatia to spend a month there.

She was going to return to the US in September.

I am sure she was on summer vacation in Croatia and Serbia and was returning to the US at the start of the school year.

KivaSupporter
11-30-2011, 11:10 AM
Аnother thing which would be good to pursue, assuming Seka stayed in the US and was naturalized:

Please refer to messages 14 and 25 in this thread for information I received from NARA in San Bruno.


Is there anyone who lives in or close to San Bruno, California willing to visit the National Archives and Records Administration?

SideKick
11-30-2011, 12:10 PM
Well!
You're not going to believe what I've just found... On Facebook, there is a group called Zim's Restaurant. Whoopie. There are 120 people in the group so far and they are discussing the restaurant, the waitresse's the owner and some of them went there in the early 70's! Some are old waitress's and daughters and son's of people who worked there... Do I dare? Please give me some thoughts, please........ SK
For those interested..... https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/211635915110/

SideKick
11-30-2011, 12:17 PM
If anyone of you know which Zim's the G's frequented, it would very helpful IF I post on the FB site. The address.....? They are talking about 8th & Geary, Geary between 17th and 18th, Market and Van Ness and 19th, and one near Jackson and Vaness.

SideKick
11-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Waitresses on strike, Zims 1979
Photo: Mary Ellen Churchill
This story of San Francisco's Local 2 of the Hotel and Restaurant Workers Union begins in 1975: Article of interest and perhaps tips...



http://foundsf.org/index.php?title=Local_2_and_the_Alliance_of_Rank_a nd_File

Odyssey
11-30-2011, 02:36 PM
Croatian is very similar to Serbian and easily understood by Serbians and vice versa.

In most cases, Seka is a nickname both in Croatia and Serbia.

This person might know or has heard of Seka. It might be a good idea to contact her.

My belief is that Seka is living in the US.

HTH

I can't find an email for her... ugh...

I might add though, I did not find very many licensees whose names appeared Serbian - I was searching late 1970s-early 1980s in San Francisco only... I think I found about 8 of them...

Kiva: I do have a question about the Seka nickname. Would you think it is more likely that she went by the nickname Seka because her real name was difficult to pronounce, or uncommon here? Or do you think someone named Kathleen would be just as likely to go by Seka?

Appreciate your help, as always!! :)

Odyssey
11-30-2011, 02:40 PM
Well!
You're not going to believe what I've just found... On Facebook, there is a group called Zim's Restaurant. Whoopie. There are 120 people in the group so far and they are discussing the restaurant, the waitresse's the owner and some of them went there in the early 70's! Some are old waitress's and daughters and son's of people who worked there... Do I dare? Please give me some thoughts, please........ SK
For those interested..... https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/211635915110/

I double dare you! :)

Yeah I think that would be good... if Steve Z remembered them and probably wasn't even all that involved in the day to day stuff... my bet is the waitresses would remember them...

SideKick
11-30-2011, 03:10 PM
Another long shot here... going on the theory that Seka may have been a medical student... I started searching the California physician and nurse licenses for any names that sound like they could be Serbian. (A wiki article stated that most Serbian/Yugoslavian surnames end in "ic" so that's what I was looking for)

I found one named S88V88E88T88K88A G88R88S88K88O88V88I88C

(Ignore the 8's, I'm just trying to keep her name from showing up on a Google search that her patients may see) Anyway, she was licensed as an RN in San Francisco and currently works at Kaiser on Geary in SF. Her Kaiser profile says that she speaks Croatian (not sure if this is a plus or a minus, Seka should speak Serbian, right?), and has been in the SF Bay Area for 35 years (arriving circa 1975-1976), and with Kaiser for 30 (circa 1980-1981).

I could see how this first name could be understood as "Seka" by someone who may not be familiar with the Serbian names.

Again, total long shot.. but I thought it was worth mentioning since the timing also seems right.

~~ If I decifered correctly, she is currently 53 yrs old. In 1978 she was 20.
There is a phone number online, easily accessible. Anyone want to ring her?
Also on 123people.com lists possible relatives and an alias name...

SideKick
11-30-2011, 03:11 PM
I can't find an email for her... ugh...

I might add though, I did not find very many licensees whose names appeared Serbian - I was searching late 1970s-early 1980s in San Francisco only... I think I found about 8 of them...

Kiva: I do have a question about the Seka nickname. Would you think it is more likely that she went by the nickname Seka because her real name was difficult to pronounce, or uncommon here? Or do you think someone named Kathleen would be just as likely to go by Seka?

Appreciate your help, as always!! :)

Sorry, who's email addy are you referring to?

thanks

Odyssey
11-30-2011, 03:33 PM
Sorry, who's email addy are you referring to?

thanks


I was trying to find an email for that Kaiser doctor... and yes, you did decipher correctly. :)

KivaSupporter
11-30-2011, 03:47 PM
I can't find an email for her... ugh...


Kiva: I do have a question about the Seka nickname. Would you think it is more likely that she went by the nickname Seka because her real name was difficult to pronounce, or uncommon here? Or do you think someone named Kathleen would be just as likely to go by Seka?

Appreciate your help, as always!! :)

Seka means "little sister". She would probably use it informally, like with family and friends. In my opinion, she would not use it professionaly.

Yes, Kathleen could go by Seka, but Kathleen is not a name that one would find in former Yugoslavia. It could be that her name was Kata or Katica and she is using English equivalent. I am guessing.

If you have any questions, I would be happy to help.

Annasmom
11-30-2011, 04:23 PM
Annasmom, I was thinking of sending a copy of the flyer by e-mail. A person in Croatia could then print copies and distribute them.

I believe I can produce a flyer in Word.

Would you please give me your suggestion about what to say in the flyer? I will translate it into Croatian.

If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know.

Maybe something like this: The person who wrote this post card may have information about two individuals (now deceased) who are persons of interest in a case involving the disappearance of a five-year-old girl in 1973 in California. Family and friends of the girl still hold hope that she may be found alive, and the case is still open. Contact _______________.

Annasmom
11-30-2011, 04:27 PM
If anyone of you know which Zim's the G's frequented, it would very helpful IF I post on the FB site. The address.....? They are talking about 8th & Geary, Geary between 17th and 18th, Market and Van Ness and 19th, and one near Jackson and Vaness.
I think it could be the one at Market and Van Ness. I am just going on Joe Ford's notes in the book, because I don't know the area.

SideKick
12-01-2011, 05:05 PM
Is it at all possible to obtain US Visa's issued to female person's from Serbia?

I have chatted with Miss Marple, and she sends her best wishes to you all, she is busy travelling but will pop in soon. The question is from Miss Marple...

KivaSupporter
12-01-2011, 05:56 PM
Is it at all possible to obtain US Visa's issued to female person's from Serbia?

I have chatted with Miss Marple, and she sends her best wishes to you all, she is busy travelling but will pop in soon. The question is from Miss Marple...

At the present time or?

SideKick
12-02-2011, 12:59 PM
At the present time or?

~~ I suppose anytime during 1978-present in order to locate Seka.:sleigh:

Evan's Mom
12-02-2011, 04:39 PM
Another 2006 Post from Dr. D.

Dr. Doogie04-08-2006, 05:14 PM
No luck - Brody addressed the letters to her family as "Dear Friends". No address other than references to "Beograd".

I rereading the correspondence, it appears that Seka first arrived in San Francisco from Yugoslavia in 1976. Brody refers to her also by a nickname of "Little Tito". Shortly after her arrival, it appears that she began to drift away from Brody's influence, causing him to warn her about the emotional damage that would occur to her if he were to break ties with her (the ego of this man was stunning).

Yugoslavia!?

Full link for my 2 posts:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37212.html

I don't know how relevant it is, but I always thought that Little Tito was in reference to Josip Broz Tito former president of Yugoslavia.
Could George have found some commonality between Tito and Seka, and that's why he referred to her as Little Tito?

KivaSupporter
12-02-2011, 04:47 PM
~~ I suppose anytime during 1978-present in order to locate Seka.:sleigh:

The laws have changed many times during that period. In my opinion, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to do.

Cubby
12-07-2011, 04:40 PM
Still running with RL. Should have several uninterupted hours this coming weekend to work on a thread for Seka at CD.

SideKick
12-14-2011, 11:02 AM
Hello!
Well, I got a hit on the Zim's page on Facebook. A gentleman by the name of George posted in reply to my photo post of the two G's. He said: I knew Dr. Waters. He worked at the Mission Neighborhood Health Center on 16th & Shotwell up until or close to his passing.
I then messaged him a little about Anna and old George and that we're searching for Anna. I haven't received a reply yet.
I was however, surprised someone actually remembers him and posted!! I am going to ask him if he knew if there was a Seka working at Zims.
Best for the holidays.

Annasmom
12-14-2011, 11:18 PM
Hello!
Well, I got a hit on the Zim's page on Facebook. A gentleman by the name of George posted in reply to my photo post of the two G's. He said: I knew Dr. Waters. He worked at the Mission Neighborhood Health Center on 16th & Shotwell up until or close to his passing.
I then messaged him a little about Anna and old George and that we're searching for Anna. I haven't received a reply yet.
I was however, surprised someone actually remembers him and posted!! I am going to ask him if he knew if there was a Seka working at Zims.
Best for the holidays.
Amazing work, SideKick!

Firefly75
12-29-2011, 12:12 PM
I don't know how relevant it is, but I always thought that Little Tito was in reference to Josip Broz Tito former president of Yugoslavia.
Could George have found some commonality between Tito and Seka, and that's why he referred to her as Little Tito?

In my experience, people from the (now) former Yugoslavia are often referred to as 'something or other' of or related to Josip Broz Tito, not always necessarily because of any shared (personality) traits. Perhaps this lady believed in the values Tito tried to instill in children of the day (for example, that education and learning were of crucial importance, or some of his socialist values), who knows.

However, G. may have called her that simply on account of her being from Yugoslavia, or of Yugoslav ancestors. I've been called 'Little Tito' myself on occasion (usually by people who knew nothing whatsoever about Yugoslavia or its political situation). Once, on a trip to Italy, my friends and I went to a pizzeria for our tea and as it was in a somewhat remote place and there weren't many customers, the chef came out to recommend some food. He asked where we were from and said, "Ooh, figlii di Tito" (Tito's children, and please disregard any spelling mistakes in Italian). He referred to us as Tito's children for the entire time we were there.

Just a thought.

OzzieMum
01-05-2012, 05:48 AM
Another long shot here... going on the theory that Seka may have been a medical student... I started searching the California physician and nurse licenses for any names that sound like they could be Serbian. (A wiki article stated that most Serbian/Yugoslavian surnames end in "ic" so that's what I was looking for)

I found one named S88V88E88T88K88A G88R88S88K88O88V88I88C

(Ignore the 8's, I'm just trying to keep her name from showing up on a Google search that her patients may see) Anyway, she was licensed as an RN in San Francisco and currently works at Kaiser on Geary in SF. Her Kaiser profile says that she speaks Croatian (not sure if this is a plus or a minus, Seka should speak Serbian, right?), and has been in the SF Bay Area for 35 years (arriving circa 1975-1976), and with Kaiser for 30 (circa 1980-1981).

I could see how this first name could be understood as "Seka" by someone who may not be familiar with the Serbian names.

Again, total long shot.. but I thought it was worth mentioning since the timing also seems right.

Hi Odyssey,

If SG is who you wanted me to look up on Ancestry, then you may just be on to something. Really good work :)

Leaving pronunciation aside, many Europeans and Asians adopt a more western name or a shortening of their name to "fit in". Svetka, SvEtKA.

There is an SG that was born in 1958 (it doesn't state what country) and she was naturalized in 1983 in CA. There is also a public record for the same SG (going by DOB) in San Francisco in 1993, 439 Panorama Dr, San Francisco, CA, 94131-1222 (1993)
[179 Duncan St, San Francisco, CA, 94110-4322 (1993)]. She would only be 53 now so you would hope she is still alive.

Prior to (or during) 1977 we can see by GB's letters that there was a falling out between him and Seka. It makes me feel sick to think about it but maybe GB was entrusted to care for Seka while she was attending nursing school but his interest became more than a Fartherly one. SG would have been 15 when Anna disappeared and 19 when the GB letter to Seka's family was sent.

I would like to see a transcription of Seka's post card of 1978. It's not very clear on the scanned copy. I do find it interesting that Seka calls GB, Jean Gorge (Jean Gorge is French for John George, right?). We may have been looking for George instead of John.

It is also very interesting that GB writes to Seka's parent in English. Serbian/Yugoslavian I doubt it back then, French, YES.

JMO

OzzieMum
01-05-2012, 06:19 AM
Par Avion is also French for, by plane.

OzzieMum
01-05-2012, 06:28 AM
Or if you want "air mail".

OzzieMum
01-05-2012, 04:41 PM
Looking at the post card with fresh eyes this morning, maybe it does say Dear George but the D looks more like a J and the R looks more like an N.

Annasmon, can you confirm from the original post card if it is dear or Jean.

Annasmom
01-05-2012, 07:32 PM
Looking at the post card with fresh eyes this morning, maybe it does say Dear George but the D looks more like a J and the R looks more like an N.

Annasmon, can you confirm from the original post card if it is dear or Jean.

It is definitely "Dear"...nothing would indicate otherwise.

marie-chantal
01-06-2012, 06:35 PM
I've been kind of lurking around these threads for a while, and I was thinking about the Seka mystery. If 'Seka' means 'sister', then does anyone think that she may have Americanized her name to Sissy?

I typed in that last name that's listed above: Grskovic, into Facebook. There are many people with that last name, including a person with a name that is very, very similar to Seka. Since we're not supposed to sleuth private people, I will be happy to share that person's first name if anyone is interested. She looks like she would have been a young adult in the late 70s.

Edit: there are a couple of people with names that are very, very similar to the name Seka.

OzzieMum
04-27-2012, 05:02 AM
I have believed for quite some time that Seka is the key to finding out more about GB. I think Seka was in the US as a student and that she was from a wealthy family. Surely only a wealthy Serbian family could afford to send their daughter to school in another country and holiday in a beautiful beach side place in Skradin.

I was talking to a work colleague today that is from Macedonia, also part of former Yugoslavia, and she was able to tell me a few interesting things. I haven't re-read this thread yet but I will, I want to throw out there what have found out in the mean time.

My colleague also agrees that Seka would have to be from a wealthy family to be sent to the US to study and have holidays in Skradin.

We have thought for quite some time that Seka meant sister but we were wrong, right word, wrong spelling, ceka (with an accent over the c) is the word for sister not seka. My colleague was quite adamant about the 2 spellings of the word and she told me that Seka is always a shortening for the name Svetlana. She also told me that they have shortenings for most of their names eg: her name is Cristina and it is always shortened to Kiki.

I asked my colleague if little Tito had any meaning and her response was that it would be like calling someone little Hitler as Tito was a Yugoslavian leader that thought along the same lines as Hitler.

As I said, I will re-read this thread and ask my colleague about anything else I come across but if anyone else has any questions I can ask her, please post them, she is very eager to help.

Where is Kivasupport :( We need you.

SideKick
04-27-2012, 10:12 AM
A tourist map of Skradin for a refresher.

http://www.geckogo.com/Guide/Croatia/Explore/Map/

and...

http://www.adrialin.co.uk/infouk/skradin/anfahrt.html

SideKick
04-27-2012, 11:22 AM
Does anyone know if there is a directory or file online of Nursing graduates in and around 1978-1980 to see if there maybe a person who is/was Seka or Svetlana?

SideKick
04-27-2012, 11:44 AM
Oh!
I found this for searching Seka. Does anyone know which school she would have gone to if she knew Brody in Oakland?

http://www.classmates.com/places/college/San-Francisco-State-University--Nursing/22528791

OzzieMum
04-27-2012, 05:47 PM
Oh!
I found this for searching Seka. Does anyone know which school she would have gone to if she knew Brody in Oakland?

http://www.classmates.com/places/college/San-Francisco-State-University--Nursing/22528791

Hi SK,

My guess would be Berkeley but maybe Annasmom would have a better idea.

Annasmom
04-27-2012, 08:56 PM
Hi SK,

My guess would be Berkeley but maybe Annasmom would have a better idea.

We do not really know that she was a student. She could have been an au pair, for instance. Lots of SF families have au pairs from good families to look after their students. We don't know what Seka was doing hanging out in one of the roughest neighborhoods in the city. Was she a student nurse? Did she have some affiliation with UCSF, the medical and nursing school? If she was a nursing student, she could have gone to any one of a dozen schools in San Francisco. Remember that Brody was living in San Francisco, not Oakland, at this time, even if he did his banking in Oakland.

SFState is on the other side of the city from the Tenderloin, pretty far away, and as far as I know neither GW or GB had any business on the west side of the city, where SFState is. City College (in SF) is a possibility. They probably have a pre-nursing program. Kaiser Hospital has a nursing program somewhere...this might be worth thinking about, because I think one of GW's job was at a Kaiser. I don't think Berkeley has a nursing program, but I could be mistaken.

Odyssey
04-27-2012, 11:56 PM
Does anyone know if there is a directory or file online of Nursing graduates in and around 1978-1980 to see if there maybe a person who is/was Seka or Svetlana?


Do you think we should take another look at the Svetlana we were looking at earlier?

OzzieMum
04-28-2012, 12:03 AM
Do you think we should take another look at the Svetlana we were looking at earlier?

Hi Odyssey,

Can you PM me the surname if you have it. I have been looking at Svetlana's all day.

Odyssey
04-28-2012, 12:11 AM
Hi Odyssey,

Can you PM me the surname if you have it. I have been looking at Svetlana's all day.

Ozziemum, look at post 158 in this thread (up a bit but on this page), so you can see what we had done so far, we have already looked into this Svetlana in the past and didn't really get anywhere...

Odyssey
04-28-2012, 12:13 AM
Ozziemum, look at post 158 in this thread (up a bit but on this page), so you can see what we had done so far, we have already looked into this Svetlana in the past and didn't really get anywhere...

Never mind. That was a Svetka, not a Svetlana. :doh:

Annasmom
05-04-2012, 12:47 PM
There is a story in today's New York Times titled "Marshal Tito in Queens" which talks about emigration from the former Yugoslavia to the United States. I am so vague about the turbulent history of this part of the world that I didn't know how to reconcile it with the fact that Brody called Seka "Little Tito". I am hoping somebody else can make a little more sense of it and perhaps put Seka's appearance in the U.S. and her return home into some kind of perspective. Of course we don't really know that this has anything to do with Anna's case, but it is yet another dead end we have encountered.

OzzieMum
05-04-2012, 05:01 PM
There is a story in today's New York Times titled "Marshal Tito in Queens" which talks about emigration from the former Yugoslavia to the United States. I am so vague about the turbulent history of this part of the world that I didn't know how to reconcile it with the fact that Brody called Seka "Little Tito". I am hoping somebody else can make a little more sense of it and perhaps put Seka's appearance in the U.S. and her return home into some kind of perspective. Of course we don't really know that this has anything to do with Anna's case, but it is yet another dead end we have encountered.

Hi Annasmom,

Since my post #164 in this thread, I have been trying to get time to go back and find out who used the name Little Tito and about who, so thank you for saving me the time.

As per my post, my colleague told me that calling someone Little Tito would be like calling someone Little Hitler so why would GB refer to Seka as Little Tito? Was it something she did or could it be that she was actually related to Tito, daughter, niece ? We are pretty sure that Seka came from a wealthy family so it could fit.

I am going to do some more research on Tito and see what I can find out.

OzzieMum
05-04-2012, 05:22 PM
Ok, getting a bit excited here. Tito lived in Belgrade for some time and he had a granddaughter, born in 1955, and her name is Svetlana (as per my colleague, Seka is a shortening for Svetlana) and she is a doctor, a cardiologist.

Going back to search more to see if I can find out if Svetlana was ever in the US.

Annasmom
05-04-2012, 08:12 PM
Ok, getting a bit excited here. Tito lived in Belgrade for some time and he had a granddaughter, born in 1955, and her name is Svetlana (as per my colleague, Seka is a shortening for Svetlana) and she is a doctor, a cardiologist.

Going back to search more to see if I can find out if Svetlana was ever in the US.

!!!!!!!

OzzieMum
05-04-2012, 08:53 PM
I have been thinking about this Svetlana and even if she is not Seka, she would have been in Belgrade at the same time as Seka. The rich and famous usually "rub shoulders" so she may know who Seka is.

Does anyone else think it might be worth while contacting Svetlana? I think it should be done discretely as she is very well know among the medical profession. I think Doogie or Annasmom should be the one's to contact her if they think it is a good idea.

OzzieMum
05-05-2012, 04:57 AM
!!!!!!!

Hi Annasmom,

I didn't really understand this. I have thought about it all day and I don't know what you mean. Could you please explain?

Cubby
05-05-2012, 07:57 AM
Hi Annasmom,

I didn't really understand this. I have thought about it all day and I don't know what you mean. Could you please explain?


If I can add how I interpreted it, she's excited and speechless about the possible find. :)

I find it very interesting, even if determined it is not related to Anna's case. Like Annasmom, I too am vague about the history....

hth and that I did not over step by adding my interpretation.

truecrimejunkie
05-05-2012, 09:17 AM
I have believed for quite some time that Seka is the key to finding out more about GB. I think Seka was in the US as a student and that she was from a wealthy family. Surely only a wealthy Serbian family could afford to send their daughter to school in another country and holiday in a beautiful beach side place in Skradin.

I was talking to a work colleague today that is from Macedonia, also part of former Yugoslavia, and she was able to tell me a few interesting things. I haven't re-read this thread yet but I will, I want to throw out there what have found out in the mean time.

My colleague also agrees that Seka would have to be from a wealthy family to be sent to the US to study and have holidays in Skradin.

We have thought for quite some time that Seka meant sister but we were wrong, right word, wrong spelling, ceka (with an accent over the c) is the word for sister not seka. My colleague was quite adamant about the 2 spellings of the word and she told me that Seka is always a shortening for the name Svetlana. She also told me that they have shortenings for most of their names eg: her name is Cristina and it is always shortened to Kiki.

I asked my colleague if little Tito had any meaning and her response was that it would be like calling someone little Hitler as Tito was a Yugoslavian leader that thought along the same lines as Hitler.

As I said, I will re-read this thread and ask my colleague about anything else I come across but if anyone else has any questions I can ask her, please post them, she is very eager to help.

Where is Kivasupport :( We need you.

I havent been following this case, i just stumbled upon it when I saw people talking about Skradin. I lived in Croatia for 5 years not far from there. In Croatia the word seka is spelled with an "s" and is an affectionate term for sister. Especially on the Dalmatian coast every little girl is referred to as seka or sekica (little sister). A c with an accent makes the "ch" sound. Local dialects can be really different so it may be said differently in Macedonian. Also Seka as a name is more typical for woman of Serbian heritage rather than Croatain.
Lots of people loved and still loved Tito in Croatia because he held Yugoslavia together and would stand up to the Soviets and the United States. Nowhere near as brutal as Hitler. I'll read up on this case.

Annasmom
05-05-2012, 10:04 AM
Hi Annasmom,

I didn't really understand this. I have thought about it all day and I don't know what you mean. Could you please explain?

It's just a Facebook thing, OzzieMum. I was excited about your discovery!

Annasmom
05-05-2012, 11:55 AM
I have been thinking about this Svetlana and even if she is not Seka, she would have been in Belgrade at the same time as Seka. The rich and famous usually "rub shoulders" so she may know who Seka is.

Does anyone else think it might be worth while contacting Svetlana? I think it should be done discretely as she is very well know among the medical profession. I think Doogie or Annasmom should be the one's to contact her if they think it is a good idea.

Do we have any indication that this Seka would have been in San Francisco at any time? If (as our newest poster says) Seka is a nickname given to many little girls on the Dalmatian coast, we need a little more information before trying to contact this person. I do find it just fascinating that she is a doctor, however.

Firefly75
05-05-2012, 12:20 PM
*****

truecrimejunkie
05-05-2012, 02:47 PM
Still reading this case. Its very interesting, wish I had more time. Have you tried posting to this forum
http://benkovackoguvno.yuku.com/
about Seka? I believe most of the posters on that forum are Serbians who used to live in Benkovac county Croatia but left during the war. Its not too far from Skradin.

Annasmom
05-05-2012, 02:53 PM
I have been thinking about this Svetlana and even if she is not Seka, she would have been in Belgrade at the same time as Seka. The rich and famous usually "rub shoulders" so she may know who Seka is.

Does anyone else think it might be worth while contacting Svetlana? I think it should be done discretely as she is very well know among the medical profession. I think Doogie or Annasmom should be the one's to contact her if they think it is a good idea.

OzzieMum, I see that Svetlana Broz, Tito's granddaughter, was a free-lance journalist from 1970 to 1975 and that she didn't graduate from medical school until 1980 (which probably meant she began medical school about 1975.) On her web page, colleges at which she has lectured include San Francisco State University and other west coast schools, but there are no dates on these. I can't remember the dates on Brody's letters to Seka, but I'll look at her post card to see if we have a date for that.

Annasmom
05-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Ok, getting a bit excited here. Tito lived in Belgrade for some time and he had a granddaughter, born in 1955, and her name is Svetlana (as per my colleague, Seka is a shortening for Svetlana) and she is a doctor, a cardiologist.

Going back to search more to see if I can find out if Svetlana was ever in the US.

I'm reposting Seka's card to "Mr. George"...if this is the same Svetlana, it would make sense that she spent the summer on vacation and had to return to school in September.

OzzieMum
05-05-2012, 04:50 PM
OzzieMum, I see that Svetlana Broz, Tito's granddaughter, was a free-lance journalist from 1970 to 1975 and that she didn't graduate from medical school until 1980 (which probably meant she began medical school about 1975.) On her web page, colleges at which she has lectured include San Francisco State University and other west coast schools, but there are no dates on these. I can't remember the dates on Brody's letters to Seka, but I'll look at her post card to see if we have a date for that.

Annasmom, I haven't been able to find anything on Svetlana being in SF but that doesn't mean she wasn't, I will keep searching. As per her bio, she has lectured quite a bit in the US since becoming a doctor.

I did find it interesting that Svetlana was a free lance journalist at the age of 15. I would like to know what newspapers and magazines she was published in and what they were about.

Can anyone think of any questions I can ask my colleague that might help. Her father grew up in Yugoslavia during Tito's rein and is very knowledgeable about him.

Only one of GB's letters to Seka had a date and that was 1977, a year prior to the postcard.

Annasmom
05-05-2012, 07:23 PM
Annasmom, I haven't been able to find anything on Svetlana being in SF but that doesn't mean she wasn't, I will keep searching. As per her bio, she has lectured quite a bit in the US since becoming a doctor.

I did find it interesting that Svetlana was a free lance journalist at the age of 15. I would like to know what newspapers and magazines she was published in and what they were about.

Can anyone think of any questions I can ask my colleague that might help. Her father grew up in Yugoslavia during Tito's rein and is very knowledgeable about him.

Only one of GB's letters to Seka had a date and that was 1977, a year prior to the postcard.
If your colleague could give us any information about Tito's grandchildren, that would be helpful. It seems that Svetlana was the daughter of one of his sons.

SideKick
05-05-2012, 07:46 PM
Searching, 'Tito's daughter'...

http://www.euronews.com/2010/07/09/svetlana-broz-on-bosnian-scars/

SK

~~ Intriguing thread!

SideKick
05-05-2012, 07:50 PM
Quote: Svetlana Broz, 45, is Tito's youngest grandchild. She qualified as a cardiologist in 1980, the year of his death, but has stopped practising medicine to become a writer. Her first book, Dobri Ljudi U Vremenu Zla (Good People in Evil Times), sought out unheralded acts of individual bravery and mercy among communities in the midst of the Bosnian war, the most vicious conflict in Europe for half a century, when Serbs, Croats and Muslims were all encouraged to think of anyone but their own as being less than human.


http://www.svetlanabroz.org/content/view/80/52/lang,en/

~~~~~

http://www.svetlanabroz.org/content/view/80/52/lang,en/



What was it like growing up as Tito's granddaughter?
"I don't like to speak about my grandfather's private life, but we were very close. We spent as much time together as he could spare from his very busy life. The surname is extremely rare, so my name did make a difference, but I don't think it brought me any advantages. On the contrary, I had to study twice as hard to prove myself."

SideKick
05-05-2012, 07:52 PM
Author and cardiologist Svetlana Broz, grand-daughter of Marshal Josip Broz Tito

SideKick
05-05-2012, 07:53 PM
Svetlana Broz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She graduated from the Belgrade Medical School in 1980 and has served as a cardiologist at the Military Medical Academy (VMA) from 1981 to 1999, and volunteered her services at the outbreak of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992. Her new project is about inter-ethnic marriages entered into during the war.

~ I don't think this is our Seka.

truecrimejunkie
05-06-2012, 09:34 AM
Svetlana Broz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetlana_Broz)

She graduated from the Belgrade Medical School in 1980 and has served as a cardiologist at the Military Medical Academy (VMA) from 1981 to 1999, and volunteered her services at the outbreak of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992. Her new project is about inter-ethnic marriages entered into during the war.

~ I don't think this is our Seka.

Probably not. Tito owned his own private resort islands, Brijuni. The family would spend their summers there not in Skradin.

Brijuni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In 1945 after World War II the Brijuni became part of Yugoslavia and President Marshal Josip Broz Tito made the Brijuni Islands his personal State Summer Residence. Slovenian architect Jože Plečnik designed a pavilion for Tito. Almost 100 foreign heads of state visited Tito on his islands, along with film stars including Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton, Sophia Loren, Carlo Ponti, and Gina Lollobrigida. Tito died in 1980, and by 1983 the islands were declared a National Park of Yugoslavia."

SideKick
05-06-2012, 01:15 PM
Still reading this case. Its very interesting, wish I had more time. Have you tried posting to this forum
http://benkovackoguvno.yuku.com/
about Seka? I believe most of the posters on that forum are Serbians who used to live in Benkovac county Croatia but left during the war. Its not too far from Skradin.

~ I had a peek and can't understand a word! Haha... Truecrime, are you able to read the forum?

:-)

SarahR
05-06-2012, 08:40 PM
Not sure if its been mentioned but 'Mr George' is how someone from Poland would refer to an older man as a mark of respect. I work with many Polish people and they all speak to men old enough to be their dad i suppose is the best way i can explain it, this way. I call my boss Sandy. they all call him Mr Sandy. Not very important i know but just incase it helps

truecrimejunkie
05-07-2012, 09:21 AM
~ I had a peek and can't understand a word! Haha... Truecrime, are you able to read the forum?

:-)

I havent spoken the language in years. I am not from the former Yugoslavia i just lived there for a while. I was looking for a Skradin forum when I found the one for Benkovac which is not too far from Skradin. From what I can read the posts are mainly Serbs who used to live in the area posting about old memories, photos or looking for old friends. It may be a good forum to post about the search for Seka.

BTW, The Travel Channel, No Reseravations with Anthony Bourdain was just in Skradin last week, If you want to see how beautiful the area is:
http://www.travelchannel.com/tv-shows/anthony-bourdain/episodes/croatiancoast

Firefly75
05-07-2012, 10:01 AM
Not sure if its been mentioned but 'Mr George' is how someone from Poland would refer to an older man as a mark of respect. I work with many Polish people and they all speak to men old enough to be their dad i suppose is the best way i can explain it, this way. I call my boss Sandy. they all call him Mr Sandy. Not very important i know but just incase it helps

This is a very valid point. The same goes for (the former) Yugoslavia - you prefix a person's name with a title to show respect, difference in age or social status, or to indicate that you don't know them well enough to just use their first name (which you would do if they were family or a close enough friend). If you know the person in a medical context, you would always use Dr. in front of their name, again to show respect. Could be something to do with the culture of Slavonic countries, perhaps?

Edit: I've just remembered that in certain types of context (e.g. at school or in a political situation), you'd refer to the person as 'comrade'. I guess this must be very strange to the people from 'the West'.


Edit 2: I notice she addresses him as "Dear George" on the postcard, which I would take to indicate that she knew the man well enough to drop the formality?

Also, she mentions a brother. (As far as I can remember, SB's father had at least one son, but I am still of the opinion that SB is not the person we are after.)

Edit 3: SB does not have a brother. She's got two half-brothers and one half-sister. (http://www.vreme.com/cms/view.php?id=863733) Hope this helps a little.

Firefly75
05-07-2012, 11:07 AM
Looking at the postcard, what gets me is that she didn't seem to know his surname.

Annasmom, is there any indication elsewhere that she did? Or is this the only communication between them in your possession?

Annasmom
05-07-2012, 01:33 PM
Looking at the postcard, what gets me is that she didn't seem to know his surname.

Annasmom, is there any indication elsewhere that she did? Or is this the only communication between them in your possession?

I am attaching everything I have on Seka. I doubt she really knew his surname, but that's just a guess.

Firefly75
05-07-2012, 02:08 PM
Annasmom, thank you very much. Given the date on the postcard (1978), and the dates on these earlier communications, I imagine there is a fair chance she didn't know his surname, otherwise she would probably have used in on the postcard. It seems they may have made up after the drama of 1977, at least enough for her to send him a postcard from her holidays.

The more I look at these communications, the more twisted it all appears.

I need some time to think this over. Thank you again.

SideKick
05-07-2012, 04:35 PM
I am attaching everything I have on Seka. I doubt she really knew his surname, but that's just a guess.

~ Annasmom, thanks alot for reposting the Seka notes! Outrageous letters from Brody. On the last one I noticed he signs BG and looks like either and & or an S and the Seka at the bottom of the page. Just confirming what we have here....

Was he a therapist of sorts? Seems to know about Belgrade. I wouldn't doubt he was also from there, how would he know Seka's entire family? Perhaps her parents advised she see Brody as he too was in SF when she was and then their friendship turned for whatever reason, her against him...again, he does like hiding the truth doesn't he? He doesn't really mention 'anything' to grasp onto. And again, Mike who? Brody mentions she worked with Mike? Ok, so was she also in school?

SideKick
05-07-2012, 04:37 PM
Twisted is a good word Firefly... yup, very fitting. arrgh!

SideKick
05-07-2012, 04:43 PM
And... what fame did Seka find herself in?

Uhmm.... red carpet may just be a term her used... but he does mention fame a couple of times....

OzzieMum
05-07-2012, 05:28 PM
I havent spoken the language in years. I am not from the former Yugoslavia i just lived there for a while. I was looking for a Skradin forum when I found the one for Benkovac which is not too far from Skradin. From what I can read the posts are mainly Serbs who used to live in the area posting about old memories, photos or looking for old friends. It may be a good forum to post about the search for Seka.

BTW, The Travel Channel, No Reseravations with Anthony Bourdain was just in Skradin last week, If you want to see how beautiful the area is:
http://www.travelchannel.com/tv-shows/anthony-bourdain/episodes/croatiancoast

I have copied a post from the Benkovac forum and my colleague is going to have a look at it today and tell me what language it is. She can translate a post for me to Serbian, Croatian or Masidonian. I too think this would be a good place to post.

Annasmom
05-07-2012, 08:10 PM
~ Annasmom, thanks alot for reposting the Seka notes! Outrageous letters from Brody. On the last one I noticed he signs BG and looks like either and & or an S and the Seka at the bottom of the page. Just confirming what we have here....

Was he a therapist of sorts? Seems to know about Belgrade. I wouldn't doubt he was also from there, how would he know Seka's entire family? Perhaps her parents advised she see Brody as he too was in SF when she was and then their friendship turned for whatever reason, her against him...again, he does like hiding the truth doesn't he? He doesn't really mention 'anything' to grasp onto. And again, Mike who? Brody mentions she worked with Mike? Ok, so was she also in school?

The note is in Dr. Waters' handwriting and he's apparently quoting Brody. There's a little c with a stroke over it which means "with" in doctor-talk. The note says "I did her a favor by accepting her--only to be thrown out of her midst when she was faced with a crisis--on a later day." GB & Seka

No, Brody was no therapist, and I really don't think he knew any more about Belgrade than he read in the newspapers...he was just trying to influence Seka. I don't think he knew the family either. No idea who Mike was, except that he was someone with whom Seka worked (so she had a job.) There has been no mention of her being in school. Everything we know about Seka is in these notes and in her post cards, unless somebody else knows something that wasn't in Dr. Waters' papers (where these things were found.) I don't know what that would be.

The impression I get, however, is that this old coot was flirting with a young woman and trying to influence her with his usual line, and a colleague of hers and her family stepped in and objected.

truecrimejunkie
05-07-2012, 08:34 PM
Have you tried contacting The First Serbian Benevolent Society of San Francisco? http://fsbs.org/

Maybe some of the memebers might know or have known her.

Cubby
05-07-2012, 08:52 PM
The note is in Dr. Waters' handwriting and he's apparently quoting Brody. There's a little c with a stroke over it which means "with" in doctor-talk. The note says "I did her a favor by accepting her--only to be thrown out of her midst when she was faced with a crisis--on a later day." GB & Seka

No, Brody was no therapist, and I really don't think he knew any more about Belgrade than he read in the newspapers...he was just trying to influence Seka. I don't think he knew the family either. No idea who Mike was, except that he was someone with whom Seka worked (so she had a job.) There has been no mention of her being in school. Everything we know about Seka is in these notes and in her post cards, unless somebody else knows something that wasn't in Dr. Waters' papers (where these things were found.) I don't know what that would be.

The impression I get, however, is that this old coot was flirting with a young woman and trying to influence her with his usual line, and a colleague of hers and her family stepped in and objected.

BBM. I agree. Clearly Seka's family and colleague's recognized GB's mind games and pulled her away before he could be of any influence. He really seemed to like to play mind games in a sense that his presence would greatly affect one's future, in positive or negative ways. I see that present in his letters to Seka and her family.

FWIW, I read the ending of the last letter as 'GB of Seka'. As if to memorize the sentence so it could be repeated later along with the notation of whom it was said about. It clearly looks like the word "of" to me.

Annasmom
05-07-2012, 09:03 PM
BBM. I agree. Clearly Seka's family and colleague's recognized GB's mind games and pulled her away before he could be of any influence. He really seemed to like to play mind games in a sense that his presence would greatly affect one's future, in positive or negative ways. I see that present in his letters to Seka and her family.

FWIW, I read the ending of the last letter as 'GB of Seka'. As if to memorize the sentence so it could be repeated later along with the notation of whom it was said about. It clearly looks like the word "of" to me.

I think you're right, Cubby. And now that I read it again, I wonder how someone can throw another person "out of her midst". It doesn't sound like standard English somehow. Maybe I need to rethink the matter of English being GB's first language.

Annasmom
05-07-2012, 09:05 PM
Have you tried contacting The First Serbian Benevolent Society of San Francisco? http://fsbs.org/

Maybe some of the memebers might know or have known her.

It's a good idea, but difficult to do without a last name and what seems to be a very common nickname...not to mention that the date she was in SF was so long ago.

Cubby
05-07-2012, 09:42 PM
I think you're right, Cubby. And now that I read it again, I wonder how someone can throw another person "out of her midst". It doesn't sound like standard English somehow. Maybe I need to rethink the matter of English being GB's first language.


Honestly, I don't think it is so much as English being a second language for GB, but rather his lack of education. If the 1940 census info is accurate, I believe it was posted his highest level of education was 8th grade. I get the impression he read a lot and tried to teach himself, but was unable to use the words he read in the proper context.

IMO, his use of this language was an attempt to present himself as having more education than he did, in addition to manipulating those around him. And probably to make it appear he was more succesful than he actually was.

OzzieMum
05-08-2012, 05:58 AM
BBM. I agree. Clearly Seka's family and colleague's recognized GB's mind games and pulled her away before he could be of any influence. He really seemed to like to play mind games in a sense that his presence would greatly affect one's future, in positive or negative ways. I see that present in his letters to Seka and her family.

FWIW, I read the ending of the last letter as 'GB of Seka'. As if to memorize the sentence so it could be repeated later along with the notation of whom it was said about. It clearly looks like the word "of" to me.

Cubby, you beat me to the punch, I read "GB of Seka". In other words, GB dictating to GW about Seka.

I don't believe that Seka could have known GB from Dec "76 to 1978 without knowing his surname, anyone I have known and communicated with for any length of time, I certainly know their surname (not counting the internet, which was not around then).

I also don't know if GB actually knew Seka's family because with his delusions of grandeur, if Seka's family were well known/famous, knowing Seka would automatically make her family his "dear friends". Annasmom, do the letters to Seka's family look like originals that he never sent or do they look like carbon/roneo copies (yes, I know I am showing my age LOL).

The post I showed my colleague today is definitely in Serbian so I think we should organize a post on the forum.

I think we should still follow up on SB that I posted about, there are too many things that point in her direction and I just can't let it go without a rule in/out.

Seka is a shortening on Svetlana. SB is the granddaughter of Tito and GB nick named Seka "Little Tito". Tito lived in Belgrade and so did Seka. SB is obviously highly intelligent as she was a free lance journalist at the age of 15 (fame) and a cardiologist at the age of 25 (fame), with her intelligence she would have easily seen through GB's crap. GB obviously knew who Tito was to nick name Seka "Little Tito". SB was born in 1955 which seems to fit with Seka's age.

Tito had a connection with Russia, he was a prisoner of war in Omsk, Russia in 1918 and his first wife, SB's Grandmother, was Russian (this could be a connection between the families).

After re-reading GB's note to "Madam Romanticist", there is something else, that I will not post on forum (for SB's privacy), that makes me wonder if SB is Seka.

It may be premature but I would just like to ask SB straight out if she is Seka.

SideKick
05-08-2012, 09:42 AM
"Madam Romanticist" - perhaps she was a journalist at that time?

SideKick
05-08-2012, 09:46 AM
I agree her bdate of 1955 fits the bill.
I agree that the Little Tito nickname fits as well IF this was her grandfather...
I also agree that there could be a connection between the families.
I agree that we should go forward and contact her and ask her if she is Seka.

Good Luck with that Ozziemom, looking forward to the outcome.

SideKick
05-08-2012, 09:47 AM
Our Seka had one brother that we know of according to the notes, do we know if SB has siblings?

Firefly75
05-08-2012, 12:24 PM
Half-siblings only, not full siblings, as far as I remember and as far as I could find out. Her father was married three times and had a son and a daughter from his first marriage, another son from his second marriage, and SB from his third marriage. I posted the link to the article in one of my earlier posts, but I don't know how many people on this board can read that language. Hope this helps.

Cubby
05-08-2012, 11:43 PM
For me, SB being a freelance journalist at age 15 almost rules it out entirely for me. That and the fact we have zero info indicating she was ever in SF.

Is there nothing out there indicating where she has traveled?

Her age has to be known, how old was SB in 76-78?

Firefly75
05-09-2012, 04:39 AM
She was born in 1955, so 21-23.
Personally, I don't believe she studied in SF; she graduated in 1980 from School of Medicine, University of Belgrade, and her website never mentions anything about studying abroad. I can't help thinking that if she spent any time studying abroad, especially in the US, that would be mentioned, because it would have been seen as a huge achievement. (Another thought: I don't know what University of Belgrade was like in those days, or what it is like now, but would they have acknowledged any part of one's degree passed abroad?)

SideKick
05-09-2012, 01:45 PM
While trying various versions of Seka in Google I came across this travel forum and a post by a Seka dated 2006. Doesn't tell us much other than the name ... no email addy I can see.

Near the bottom of page talking about curry dishes!

http://visitcroatia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=anything&action=print&thread=5787

SideKick
05-09-2012, 01:47 PM
Re the above, a thought just occured to me .... If one joins the forum and sign's in the name Seka may be clickable to respond to her.

SideKick
05-10-2012, 04:30 PM
Just a reminder that in 2007 there was a discussion if Seka was Sigrid? For searching purposes and more insight you may view the discussion here.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50434&page=9

marie-chantal
05-14-2012, 01:45 PM
I think you're right, Cubby. And now that I read it again, I wonder how someone can throw another person "out of her midst". It doesn't sound like standard English somehow. Maybe I need to rethink the matter of English being GB's first language.

Is there a copy of this letter available online? I'm a doctoral student in Foreign Language/ESL education. I have a master's degree in bilingual and multicultural education, and I've been an ESL teacher for several years (I've worked with students from just about every part of the world). I can tell whether or not someone is a native speaker of English by looking at their sentence structure, word choice, and grammar. I can also tell (in some cases) what their first language is, and how educated they are. I'd be happy to look at this letter, if someone would just let me know where I can find it.

Annasmom
05-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Is there a copy of this letter available online? I'm a doctoral student in Foreign Language/ESL education. I have a master's degree in bilingual and multicultural education, and I've been an ESL teacher for several years (I've worked with students from just about every part of the world). I can tell whether or not someone is a native speaker of English by looking at their sentence structure, word choice, and grammar. I can also tell (in some cases) what their first language is, and how educated they are. I'd be happy to look at this letter, if someone would just let me know where I can find it.
What a terrific offer, Marie-Chantal. I am attaching the note I quoted (this is in Waters' handwriting, but is transcribed from Brody's dictation) and also a typed letter, which certainly was dictated by Brody and is in his exact words. I should point out that Waters was an English major at Princeton and of course a native English speaker, so his own writing would be quite different from the "speeches" he transcribed and typed for Brody. Brody was very, very finicky about having this sort of thing written exactly as he would say it.

marie-chantal
05-14-2012, 03:12 PM
What a terrific offer, Marie-Chantal. I am attaching the note I quoted (this is in Waters' handwriting, but is transcribed from Brody's dictation) and also a typed letter, which certainly was dictated by Brody and is in his exact words. I should point out that Waters was an English major at Princeton and of course a native English speaker, so his own writing would be quite different from the "speeches" he transcribed and typed for Brody. Brody was very, very finicky about having this sort of thing written exactly as he would say it.

These are very, very interesting letters. The typed letter just stuns me. This guy is/was insane. Unless Waters translated/edited Brody's words, Brody is/was a native speaker. He was also a total lunatic, who sounds like he was trying very hard to manipulate Seka and her family.

The grammar and sentence structure indicate someone who was a native speaker; however, his word choice is odd. You said that he insisted that his dictation be written verbatim, so I guess that Waters probably wasn't editing Brody's speech. To me, it looks like Brody was a native speaker; however, due to his word choice, he was a native speaker who wasn't very well-educated during his school days. He reminds me of a little kid who has gotten his hands on a thesaurus and is trying to impress the teacher. The way in which he uses the word "repose" is interesting to me. It's not the way anyone, even a non-native speaker would use that word. Have you ever read the book "Confederacy of Dunces"? He reminds me of the main character, Ignatius J. Reilly. It looks to me like Brody either didn't receive much of a formal education, or he was a horrible student who later on wanted to make up for that lack of education by trying to do a lot of reading. There's something very insecure that comes across in his word choices. He's deliberately trying to make himself sound highly intelligent.

Why did Waters transcribe his work? Why didn't Brody write these letters himself? Was he able to write? Was this just part of his manipulation of Waters?

It is possible that he was raised by parents who were non-native speakers; but he was a native speaker.

This is just my opinion only. Do you have any other writing samples? I'd love to see if he's just trying to impress Seka's family by trying to make himself sound smart (and failing, IMO). I'd love to see if this is his usual writing style.

marie-chantal
05-14-2012, 03:23 PM
BBM. I agree. Clearly Seka's family and colleague's recognized GB's mind games and pulled her away before he could be of any influence. He really seemed to like to play mind games in a sense that his presence would greatly affect one's future, in positive or negative ways. I see that present in his letters to Seka and her family.

FWIW, I read the ending of the last letter as 'GB of Seka'. As if to memorize the sentence so it could be repeated later along with the notation of whom it was said about. It clearly looks like the word "of" to me.

I also see the word "of" in that note. To me, this sounds like someone who was archiving his thoughts. This kind of fits in with what I've read in earlier discussions: he had delusions of grandeur. However, he probably should have said "on" if he was truly archiving this as a journalist would.

Has anyone ever read a biographic article about someone and seen sections where quotes from that person were listed? The writer will do something like this (I'll use Keith Richards as an example, since I'm a big Stones fan):

Keith Richards was born in London and blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc.

Keith is a very humorous man who has a rather interesting outlook on life.

On drugs: I never had problems with drugs. I have had problems with police.

This is usually the format that you see in those types of articles (well, obviously without the "blah, blah, blah"). This is what this note reminds me of-a biography. It sounds like this man archived his thoughts in the way an author would write about the subject of a biography. Was that note dictated? That's even more bizarre, if that was the case. This man was truly delusional.

mysteriew
05-14-2012, 03:39 PM
Marie Chantel how much difference would it make in your assessment would it be if a person immigrated at an early age? If say a child were brought to the US at age 2 or 4 or 6 years of age? Would they still show up as an immigrant?

Annasmom
05-14-2012, 03:51 PM
These are very, very interesting letters. The typed letter just stuns me. This guy is/was insane. Unless Waters translated/edited Brody's words, Brody is/was a native speaker. He was also a total lunatic, who sounds like he was trying very hard to manipulate Seka and her family.

The grammar and sentence structure indicate someone who was a native speaker; however, his word choice is odd. You said that he insisted that his dictation be written verbatim, so I guess that Waters probably wasn't editing Brody's speech. To me, it looks like Brody was a native speaker; however, due to his word choice, he was a native speaker who wasn't very well-educated during his school days. He reminds me of a little kid who has gotten his hands on a thesaurus and is trying to impress the teacher. The way in which he uses the word "repose" is interesting to me. It's not the way anyone, even a non-native speaker would use that word. Have you ever read the book "Confederacy of Dunces"? He reminds me of the main character, Ignatius J. Reilly. It looks to me like Brody either didn't receive much of a formal education, or he was a horrible student who later on wanted to make up for that lack of education by trying to do a lot of reading. There's something very insecure that comes across in his word choices. He's deliberately trying to make himself sound highly intelligent.

Why did Waters transcribe his work? Why didn't Brody write these letters himself? Was he able to write? Was this just part of his manipulation of Waters?

It is possible that he was raised by parents who were non-native speakers; but he was a native speaker.

This is just my opinion only. Do you have any other writing samples? I'd love to see if he's just trying to impress Seka's family by trying to make himself sound smart (and failing, IMO). I'd love to see if this is his usual writing style.

Here is what I take to be the original...in Brody's writing/printing. This had been wadded up and then straightened out and was among GW's papers. I suppose he couldn't part with it, since he got rid of everything he didn't want to leave after he died. Brody either had some objection to sending handwritten things or thought it looked better typed.

I have always maintained that Brody was a native speaker, so thank you for this evaluation.

marie-chantal
05-14-2012, 03:53 PM
If a person came over here as a young child, their first language wouldn't show up in their writing as long as they went to school here from at least 1st or 2nd grade and continued in American schools until they graduated. The only exception to this would be a bilingual child, who attended a bilingual school (ex.1/2 of the school day is conducted in Spanish and 1/2 of the school day is conducted in English), and only around grades 1-4 (they are going through the normal process of language transfer and code-switching, which nearly all students in bilingual schools grow out of in the later elementary years). The only way that the L1 (first language) would show up in writing is if they arrived here as a teen/young adult, or if they never had any formal schooling.

If the child came over here around 2-6 years of age, attended English-only schools until at least 12th grade (and I am about 99.9% sure that the public schools in the Bay Area at that time only offered English-only education), then one would not be able to see evidence of the L1 in writing.

My grandfather's family came to the US from Italy when my grandfather and his siblings were children. They all attended the local public schools in the CA town where they lived. They all spoke with varying traces of an Italian accent, but you could not tell from their writing that they were not native English speakers.

marie-chantal
05-14-2012, 04:03 PM
Here is what I take to be the original...in Brody's writing/printing. This had been wadded up and then straightened out and was among GW's papers. I suppose he couldn't part with it, since he got rid of everything he didn't want to leave after he died. Brody either had some objection to sending handwritten things or thought it looked better typed.

I have always maintained that Brody was a native speaker, so thank you for this evaluation.

This is a native speaker who is trying to sound more intelligent than his school records probably show. Did he attend college? Did he graduate from high school?

You mentioned that George Waters was an English major at Princeton. Did Brody have this level of education? This strikes me as a very insecure writer who is trying to impress. His vocabulary usage is ridiculously full of obscure uses of words that the average person (even those with English degrees from top universities) wouldn't use even in their most serious attempts to write in a formal style. This is why I think he's really insecure about his education. If you read "Confederacy of Dunces", you'll see what I mean. His writing reminds me of the main character in that novel. Coincidentally, that novel was published, popular and widely available at the time these letters were written.

His use of flourishes on that page (I think that's the term) is really weird. Waters typed them out as extended hyphens. It looks to me like he was getting really worked up emotionally as he wrote these letters. He's trying to control this Seka, and it looks like he is working himself up and freaking out because he knows he doesn't truly have control over her.

Do you know anything about his parents? I wonder what his home life was like. It is highly possible that he came from a family of immigrants, but if he did, he was very young when he arrived in the US.

Annasmom
05-14-2012, 08:54 PM
This is a native speaker who is trying to sound more intelligent than his school records probably show. Did he attend college? Did he graduate from high school?

You mentioned that George Waters was an English major at Princeton. Did Brody have this level of education? This strikes me as a very insecure writer who is trying to impress. His vocabulary usage is ridiculously full of obscure uses of words that the average person (even those with English degrees from top universities) wouldn't use even in their most serious attempts to write in a formal style. This is why I think he's really insecure about his education. If you read "Confederacy of Dunces", you'll see what I mean. His writing reminds me of the main character in that novel. Coincidentally, that novel was published, popular and widely available at the time these letters were written.

His use of flourishes on that page (I think that's the term) is really weird. Waters typed them out as extended hyphens. It looks to me like he was getting really worked up emotionally as he wrote these letters. He's trying to control this Seka, and it looks like he is working himself up and freaking out because he knows he doesn't truly have control over her.

Do you know anything about his parents? I wonder what his home life was like. It is highly possible that he came from a family of immigrants, but if he did, he was very young when he arrived in the US.

I ordered "Confederacy of Dunces"; I may not enjoy reading it (if it reminds me of Brody), but I couldn't resist after you referred to it, Marie-Chantal. We know almost nothing about Brody, but I believe you are correct in all your perceptions about him and about his writing.

Regarding getting worked up over Seka: This was a repetitive pattern with GW and GB. They'd try to make a new disciple, the person would balk or refuse to "join", and then threats would follow. They would then hash this over endlessly and talk about how the person had missed an amazing opportunity, had failed himself or herself, etc., etc.

marie-chantal
05-14-2012, 10:51 PM
I ordered "Confederacy of Dunces"; I may not enjoy reading it (if it reminds me of Brody), but I couldn't resist after you referred to it, Marie-Chantal. We know almost nothing about Brody, but I believe you are correct in all your perceptions about him and about his writing.

Regarding getting worked up over Seka: This was a repetitive pattern with GW and GB. They'd try to make a new disciple, the person would balk or refuse to "join", and then threats would follow. They would then hash this over endlessly and talk about how the person had missed an amazing opportunity, had failed himself or herself, etc., etc.

I'd be happy to analyze more writing samples. I'm now on summer break and I have lots of time (and I truly love to analyze language usage and writing). If there's anything else that you would like to have me look at, just let me know via PM (in case I miss the thread for whatever reason). If you'd ever like a second opinion, I would be happy to have my colleagues look at his writings for you. I submitted a request to the admins to be listed as a resource for language analysis for anyone on this site who needs to have something analyzed. I haven't gotten a response from them, but please feel free to let me know if you need my help. Like I said, I love to analyze language usage and writing.

I think you might enjoy the novel. It's a comedy. The main character is a pathetic, disgruntled slob who lives with his mother. He's stuck in the social mores of the middle ages and drives everyone around him crazy. It's a very good book; I think it may have won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction. Hopefully it will be an entertaining read for you. You'll know what I mean about Brady's language when you start reading it; however, this character is smarter than Brady seems to have been.

marie-chantal
05-14-2012, 10:59 PM
I ordered "Confederacy of Dunces"; I may not enjoy reading it (if it reminds me of Brody), but I couldn't resist after you referred to it, Marie-Chantal. We know almost nothing about Brody, but I believe you are correct in all your perceptions about him and about his writing.

Regarding getting worked up over Seka: This was a repetitive pattern with GW and GB. They'd try to make a new disciple, the person would balk or refuse to "join", and then threats would follow. They would then hash this over endlessly and talk about how the person had missed an amazing opportunity, had failed himself or herself, etc., etc.

BBM

Did they ever elaborate on what they meant by "amazing opportunity"? Opportunity to do what? Were they posing as self-help gurus? They sound like a very odd pair. How did GB make a living? Did he sponge off of GW? He seems like he was a very controlling, manipulative con-artist.

SideKick
05-15-2012, 10:32 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1162453...7601489072011/

Thankyou Marie Chantal,
The above link is a link about The Plan the G's wrote, not the date Jan. 16, 1973.

SideKick
05-15-2012, 10:36 AM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Box From Hell (BFH) - Part 2

Here is The Plan, sorry the above link didn't work.

SK

Cubby
05-15-2012, 10:45 AM
Just a friendly reminder. Let's please try and stay on topic within threads for the topic which they were titled.

Veering off topic makes it very difficult for new or newer members or guest readers to follow a case. Especially when they are jumping into a case for which they weren't here when the thread or forum was started.

I don't mean to sound pesky. I'm just trying to ensure all who follow Anna's forum can find information and follow accordingly, rather than subject matter being all over the place in various threads.

Here is the thread for discussion on George Brody:

Who was George Brody?- Part 2. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



thank you. :blowkiss:

Annasmom
05-15-2012, 11:56 AM
BBM

Did they ever elaborate on what they meant by "amazing opportunity"? Opportunity to do what? Were they posing as self-help gurus? They sound like a very odd pair. How did GB make a living? Did he sponge off of GW? He seems like he was a very controlling, manipulative con-artist.
Marie-Chantal, my answer is going to be on the thread "Who was George Brody?- Part 2. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community."

Cubby
05-15-2012, 02:59 PM
Thank you everyone. marie-chantal has some very interesting information here, which I would hate to see missed by those who may only be following certain threads. We should keep in mind members might only be following certain threads, as time permits, so we would not want valid important information to be lost by not being posted in the appropriate thread.

I have to leave for an appointment shortly, but later I will carry over the relevent info marie-chantal posted about GB's writing over to his thread, if someone else is unable to do so in the next few hours.

Thanks again! I appreciate your understanding very much.

marie-chantal
05-15-2012, 04:18 PM
Thank you everyone. marie-chantal has some very interesting information here, which I would hate to see missed by those who may only be following certain threads. We should keep in mind members might only be following certain threads, as time permits, so we would not want valid important information to be lost by not being posted in the appropriate thread.

I have to leave for an appointment shortly, but later I will carry over the relevent info marie-chantal posted about GB's writing over to his thread, if someone else is unable to do so in the next few hours.

Thanks again! I appreciate your understanding very much.

Thanks Cubby! I've sent in the request to the mods to be listed as a resource for anyone in any case who needs to have letters analyzed. I haven't heard back from them yet, but I'm always available to analyze writing.

I genuinely love to analyze writing styles and language usage. If there's anything else that I need to look at, let me know. I'm on summer break right now, so I've got all the time in the world (or at least the next few months). I've started to read all of the older threads in this case in order to get caught up with you all.

The way we communicate says a lot about us (no pun intended). Writing styles and word choice often reflect the person's language background, education, neighborhood, region, social class, gender, age, and psychological well-being.

Did Seka ever write to George? I have seen the postcard, but I haven't seen any other letters or postcards from Seka. It would be especially interesting to see anything she wrote during the time GB was freaking out about not being able to control her.

Firefly75
10-27-2013, 07:17 PM
If we are still looking for Seka, how about checking expat groups in California, such as for example this one:

http://www.meetup.com/Bay-Area-Friends-of-the-Former-Yugoslavia/

I'm sure there are other groups (perhaps the Embassy would have info on them) there; perhaps Seka, or someone who knew her back then, is still around and would be able to throw some light on things? I guess it'd have to be someone more local having a look at that and contacting them. Thoughts?

Or has this been done already? For some reason, that meetup page looks somewhat familiar to me, I think.