View Full Version : Sniff tests, hair decomp, really so conclusive? Fence sitters thread
nancy botwin
09-03-2008, 02:08 AM
Did anyone hear the question that was asked on NG tonight?
If you're asking about the question asked by the caller:
We are taking your calls live. Out to Shirley in Florida. Hi, Shirley.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`ve been trying to call for a month. My question is, with all the partying that Casey does, could she have been in a blackout? Could she have left Caylee in the car, in the heat, and she had died and then Casey, going into a blackout, panicking, putting her daughter in the trunk?
GRACE: OK. Let me ask you something. I`ve got Shirley in Florida on the phone with me. Shirley, you mean she`s still in a blackout when she puts the little girl in the car trunk?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, if she`s doing drugs and drinking, she might...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! So a blackout from drugs and drinking. Let`s go straight to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer John Burris joining me from San Francisco. Correct me if I`m wrong, Ray Giudice, but voluntary intoxication or drug use is not a defense....
( from 9/2 Transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/02/ng.01.html )
AutomaticAuttie
09-03-2008, 02:09 AM
Sorry but I missed NG tonight. Hear Cindy Anthony called in.
I thought it was a great question that makes you wonder. The caller asked if they have proof and have had proof of decompostion in CA's car trunk even if they are not sure who was in the trunk why have no new charges been filed on that evidence alone?
racegirl72
09-03-2008, 02:10 AM
Seagull, your observations are very astute. Wondering if you have background in forensics or law or medicine?
Dogs have been used for years and years, and have been successful in aiding in investigations time and time again....they are proven....I've got a little house dog that is in heat, and there are male dogs from far away camped out on my lawn right now....u just can't argue with dogs, they have no bias, they don't take sides, LE wouldn't use them if they weren't trusted. :clap:
ebedeeb
09-03-2008, 02:23 AM
IMO, the smell was vomit from a locked up car., and maybe even the reason for the stain. Bury a body, kill a baby, sudden realization of what you just did/witnessed, in all likelihood a person of "normal" capacity" would vomit. Or open the trunk and see a dead baby, it would make most of us vomit, IMO, LE is trying to make the connection. They have the forensic evidence, just have to tie the decomp to the crime which might not be from the car at all.
TGIRecovered
09-04-2008, 02:13 PM
bump-ty bump
irishbosoxfan
09-04-2008, 02:17 PM
subscribing
Cher352
09-04-2008, 02:40 PM
They are not offering immunity because they dont have clear evidence. They are offering PARTIAL immunity in hopes Casey will lead LE to Caylee. By promising they wont use any information she gives in locating caylee to prosecute.
And remember it was Baez who approached LE first about immunity.
kathyn2
09-04-2008, 02:44 PM
How many fence sitters are still left around here??
Dejablue
09-04-2008, 02:49 PM
I remain on the fence and hopeful that Caylee is alive and that her young mother's life will also not be ruined.
I think the thread was for those on the fence. I think your mind is already made up. Most seemed to just want to convince others to believe what they believe.
Is it just me, OR do these two seem like the same person???!?!?!?!
TGIRecovered
09-04-2008, 02:50 PM
This thread was way back in the old threads. Hard to find! I wonder if the events of the last two days have caused some sitters to fall off the fence?
Seagull, where are you? Have you changed your mind?
Susan
Cher352
09-04-2008, 02:51 PM
Any evidence certainly will have to be scrutinized in court--not least of all the "cadaver dog" evidence. Who says there is any scientific accuracy in that at all? I know it's a popular notion and nice to believe, but who says how accurate it is at all? I mean, the dogs alerted on areas of the back yard. There wasn't anything there. So then, the rationalization that's applied is that the corpse must have been there but was moved, or someone touched a corpse and touched that area, etc, etc. There's some explanation regardless how the dogs alert. Well if it goes to court, hopefully we will hear what, if any, research has been done to determine the rate of accuracy of cadaver dogs noses. It's funny how quick some people are to just accept whatever new technique is used, though, no questions asked.
Sorry to say this but I have a feeling the jury will believe the dogs and the DNA over all the lies Casey has told. All those lies will be dissected over and over again, they are all so far fetched that that no one will buy into them thus leaving DNA and the dogs the only thing credible to believe in.
lillygator
09-04-2008, 02:58 PM
I don't think anyone would believe anything out of the Anthony's mouths. They have lied from the beginning.
tttterri
09-04-2008, 03:03 PM
It is just a matter of time before we no longer have to guess at the truth or the facts. All that is hidden will one day be revealed.
treeseeker
09-04-2008, 03:05 PM
I'm not a fence sitter in that I'm following the family's stories. I don't understand why, if LE is confident about the cadaver dog hits in the back yard, they haven't dug up every square inch, especially given the neighbor's testimony about the shovel. I don't think we have access to nearly as much evidence as LE.
AutomaticAuttie
09-04-2008, 03:11 PM
If you're asking about the question asked by the caller:
We are taking your calls live. Out to Shirley in Florida. Hi, Shirley.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`ve been trying to call for a month. My question is, with all the partying that Casey does, could she have been in a blackout? Could she have left Caylee in the car, in the heat, and she had died and then Casey, going into a blackout, panicking, putting her daughter in the trunk?
GRACE: OK. Let me ask you something. I`ve got Shirley in Florida on the phone with me. Shirley, you mean she`s still in a blackout when she puts the little girl in the car trunk?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, if she`s doing drugs and drinking, she might...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! So a blackout from drugs and drinking. Let`s go straight to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney out of Atlanta, veteran trial lawyer John Burris joining me from San Francisco. Correct me if I`m wrong, Ray Giudice, but voluntary intoxication or drug use is not a defense....
( from 9/2 Transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/02/ng.01.html )
No, it was this question
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just had a question. The fact that her mom already had a dead body -- or pieces of a dead body in her trunk, you know, whether or not it`s Caylee or not, why hasn`t she been charged with driving around with, you know, pieces of a dead body in her trunk, a decaying body?
GRACE: You know, that is an interesting question. Let`s go back out to the lawyers. To John Burris. The forensic tests show that there was a decomposing human in that car trunk. What can authorities do with that?
ThoughtElf
09-04-2008, 05:21 PM
This thread was way back in the old threads. Hard to find! I wonder if the events of the last two days have caused some sitters to fall off the fence?
Seagull, where are you? Have you changed your mind?
Susan
And bring along MommaShark, too. :D
(why did I suddenly just imagine tops spinning?)
librarian_mama
09-04-2008, 05:30 PM
Sorry to say this but I have a feeling the jury will believe the dogs and the DNA over all the lies Casey has told. All those lies will be dissected over and over again, they are all so far fetched that that no one will buy into them thus leaving DNA and the dogs the only thing credible to believe in.
I love when attorneys in court do the old "are you lying now or were you lying then? OK, so you were lying then--how do we know you're not lying now?" routine with liars on the stand. You know what they say about liars--you can always tell they're lying when their lips are moving.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 12:01 AM
See, I thought it was Baez & Daughter. There was one exchange early on where MommaShark said, "I've got your back." and something else that implied MommaS was the more experienced party.
Regardless, whom ever they were, I hope they've since toppled like Humpty Dumpty. (wall/fence, Potato - Potahtoe - it's all semantics)
Def, somebody involved!
RR0004
09-05-2008, 12:04 AM
Any evidence certainly will have to be scrutinized in court--not least of all the "cadaver dog" evidence. Who says there is any scientific accuracy in that at all? I know it's a popular notion and nice to believe, but who says how accurate it is at all? I mean, the dogs alerted on areas of the back yard. There wasn't anything there. So then, the rationalization that's applied is that the corpse must have been there but was moved, or someone touched a corpse and touched that area, etc, etc. There's some explanation regardless how the dogs alert. Well if it goes to court, hopefully we will hear what, if any, research has been done to determine the rate of accuracy of cadaver dogs noses. It's funny how quick some people are to just accept whatever new technique is used, though, no questions asked.
Use of cadaver dogs is not a new technique.
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 12:08 AM
Patiently waiting for the first volley of the night here...
"Sitting on top of the fence,
Waiting to hear from the defense
Oh, I'm just sitting on the top of the fence
wastin' time... "
(that was a pretty good Otis Redding voice, yes?)
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:10 AM
To the people who are here just to harrass those of us who are trying to discuss alternative theories and say we are "Cindy" or that we are all the same person, why exactly are you here on this thread? This thread is for alternative theories.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:11 AM
Not at all interested in volleyball, PotatoHead. Why don't you start a thread for that.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:13 AM
This is not the general chat thread, or the "Guilty" thread. We were hoping when this thread got off the first page the "guilty and won't hear otherwise" contingent would stop harrassing the users of this thread.
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 12:13 AM
hello all...
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 12:15 AM
umm ok...I for one still have a slight hope that Caylee is still alive...Am I welcome here??
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 12:17 AM
This is not the general chat thread, or the "Guilty" thread. We were hoping when this thread got off the first page the "guilty and won't hear otherwise" contingent would stop harassing the users of this thread.
As opposed to the 'imply POI's innocence by casting doubt on truly innocent people' thread?
It isn't harassment - it is open discussion, sometimes a little humour creeps in, but it is open discussion.
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 12:20 AM
this case isn't over yet, we don't have all the information. I don't think anyone can say for certain who is and who isn't innocent
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:21 AM
umm ok...I for one still have a slight hope that Caylee is still alive...Am I welcome here??
Hi tiffertots, you are welcome :)
p.s. hmmm....i had just replied to one of PotatoHead's bully posts and then he edited the wording. That's too funny.
Anyway, this thread is supposed to be for alternative theories, but a lot of us are about to give up on websleuths website in this case because it's getting overrun with the bullying/namecalling. I.e., you try to discuss any alternative theory and two or three bullies get on the board just to call you "Cindy" over and over. Bogs the threads down and makes them nearly impossible to use. Also, the ones who do it the most tend to have huge signatures with all kinds of graphics that take up the whole page, so you have to wade through all that to get to the posts that are on topic.
JBean
09-05-2008, 12:22 AM
This is not the general chat thread, or the "Guilty" thread. We were hoping when this thread got off the first page the "guilty and won't hear otherwise" contingent would stop harrassing the users of this thread.
Don't be afriad to post your opinion Seagull. Just ignore anyone that gives you a hard time. If they violate TOS by trying to determine your identity or attack you personally be sure to report :)
As long as your opinion is within TOS, you are welcome to post your thoughts.
I don't think anyone can say for certain who is and who isn't innocent
That's not what this thread is about. It's about Caylee still being alive, or not.
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 12:25 AM
thanx seagull65. I have been a witness to some "not so mature" posters. They can get really mad too.
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 12:27 AM
this case isn't over yet, we don't have all the information. I don't think anyone can say for certain who is and who isn't innocent
Perhaps that is true in regards to pending murder charges, but LE found enough evidence of multiples crimes to charge Casey with:
1.fraud- caught on video tap, and I am sure the cheques have since been dusted for prints, not to mention her DL used as ID
2. child neglect - not calling the police when your child is missing for approximately a month
3 - obstruction - having statement after statement disproved and invalidated by LE
There may not be enough evidence yet of murder, but I doubt Casey can be proven innocent on any of the charges listed about
ergo - Casey is not innocent
And a judge set bond to the tune of half a mill. That says something also.
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 12:29 AM
That's not what this thread is about. It's about Caylee still being alive, or not.
I agree...but then why is there discussion about "truly innocent" people in this case. my point is that no one really knows who is truly innocent. I think quite a few players in this case are questionable outside the Anthony family.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 12:30 AM
I'm thinking Caylee is probably not alive. I thought for awhile that she might be with someone else but too much time has gone by. And there has been a ton of publicity.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 12:32 AM
Perhaps that is true in regards to pending murder charges, but LE found enough evidence of multiples crimes to charge Casey with:
1.fraud- caught on video tap, and I am sure the cheques have since been dusted for prints, not to mention her DL used as ID
2. child neglect - not calling the police when your child is missing for approximately a month
3 - obstruction - having statement after statement disproved and invalidated by LE
There may not be enough evidence yet of murder, but I doubt Casey can be proven innocent on any of the charges listed about
ergo - Casey is not innocent
And a judge set bond to the tune of half a mill. That says something also.
But is she guilty of murder?
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 12:32 AM
Perhaps that is true in regards to pending murder charges, but LE found enough evidence of multiples crimes to charge Casey with:
1.fraud- caught on video tap, and I am sure the cheques have since been dusted for prints, not to mention her DL used as ID
2. child neglect - not calling the police when your child is missing for approximately a month
3 - obstruction - having statement after statement disproved and invalidated by LE
There may not be enough evidence yet of murder, but I doubt Casey can be proven innocent on any of the charges listed about
ergo - Casey is not innocent
And a judge set bond to the tune of half a mill. That says something also.
I agree that in reference to the above charges she is not innocent. She will do time for all listed I'm sure, and as well she should. I just don't think she murdered her child.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:33 AM
Use of cadaver dogs is not a new technique.
That's true! By new techniques I meant more like the "air sampling" that has also been mentioned in the recent leaks to the press. My question about cadaver dogs is just how much controlled testing has been done to determine the rate of accuracy, and how could they account for the variance among individual dogs, etc. Not that I don't think dogs can sometimes find things pretty well.
You can't have scientific evidence in the trunk of the car that proves there was a decomp body, cadaver dogs hitting on specific areas and it's also testing positive for vaporized chloroform, a mom who did not report her child missing for 31 days, and is not actively participating in getting her child back and running LE on goose chases with NO credible information given and NO credible sightings anywhere and still have a live child.
You just CAN NOT. Period.
Maybe if she had one or two things working against her story she could explain it away and we may still have a live Caylee.
We can't.
Caylee is NO LONGER alive and it's time for the recovery efforts and discussions to focus on recovering the body and finding justice.
It doesn't matter who is guilty or innocent right now. She needs to open her mouth and END THIS.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 12:37 AM
I'm thinking Caylee is probably not alive. I thought for awhile that she might be with someone else but too much time has gone by. And there has been a ton of publicity.
Most definetly, first she supposedly knows who has her but is scared to say because they may do something??? I believe FBI, LE are SMART enough to rescue a child if ya would just tell them , hello??? Now she doesn't know who has her? People don't just "keep" someone else's child for NO DAM$ good reason... geezzzzzzzze. Some should not assume the average "Joe Public" doesn't have common sense..
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:39 AM
Don't be afriad to post your opinion Seagull. Just ignore anyone that gives you a hard time. If they violate TOS by trying to determine your identity or attack you personally be sure to report :)
As long as your opinion is within TOS, you are welcome to post your thoughts.
Thank you, JBean. Oh, they have done both of those things many times already. But I've never hit an alert button on anyone before and just don't do it. I just leave the board before doing that, it's not worth it. If the moderators of a website care they can easily see what certain people are doing repeatedly on the threads to other users. These posters are continually off topic on this thread. But what can you do? Anyway, onward....
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 12:42 AM
Yeah, now question the cadaver dogs, what will it be next... These dogs have more senses in one of their toes than Casey has brains in her head.. They are TRAINED obiviously if they weren't doing a good job, they wouldn't be a cadaver dog. This case is starting to infuriate me more than Scott Peterson and OJ combined, well it's getting there more everyday.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 12:43 AM
Cadaver dogs already been questioned Straitfan!
Now questioning the "air testing". By the way, if you Google University of Tennessee Body Farm, you will find the type of information you are looking for but probably not the right answers you hope for.
JBean
09-05-2008, 12:43 AM
Thank you, JBean. Oh, they have done both of those things many times already. But I've never hit an alert button on anyone before and just don't do it. I just leave the board before doing that, it's not worth it. If the moderators of a website care they can easily see what certain people are doing repeatedly on the threads to other users. These posters are continually off topic on this thread. But what can you do? Anyway, onward....
The mods are not on every thread nor do they read every post. That is why there is an alert button.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:45 AM
It is just a matter of time before we no longer have to guess at the truth or the facts. All that is hidden will one day be revealed.
That's true, the truth will remain. It's not going anywhere.
I do hope it gets revealed.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 12:48 AM
This whole family has not acted normal in this situation. Really Casey's parents aren't much help either. I am really begininng to wonder who is covering for who.
faefrost
09-05-2008, 12:50 AM
Any evidence certainly will have to be scrutinized in court--not least of all the "cadaver dog" evidence. Who says there is any scientific accuracy in that at all? I know it's a popular notion and nice to believe, but who says how accurate it is at all? I mean, the dogs alerted on areas of the back yard. There wasn't anything there. So then, the rationalization that's applied is that the corpse must have been there but was moved, or someone touched a corpse and touched that area, etc, etc. There's some explanation regardless how the dogs alert. Well if it goes to court, hopefully we will hear what, if any, research has been done to determine the rate of accuracy of cadaver dogs noses. It's funny how quick some people are to just accept whatever new technique is used, though, no questions asked.
OK, I'll play.
As others have said, Cadaver dogs are well documented in court. As are all types of trained, certified search dogs.
However the dogs cannot give testimony in court. Instead what they do is open up an area of investigation, or a probable cause for LE to investigate something deeper. In court Cadaver Dog findings are always backed up by other corraborating evidence. This is the same for all types of search animals. A drug sniffing dog will give probable cause to search an area, but yu cannot get a drug conviction just on teh dogs nose. It needs to be backed up by other clear evidence at trial.
In this case we have two solid hits by the dogs on the car trunk. That may not be much in and of itself. And certainly would not convict someone. But when added to and corraborated by;
- Cindy's excited utterance in the initial 911 call, "It smells like a dead body". Excited Utterances are given a huge amount of credibility in court.
- The initial Investigator clearly described the smell of human decomposition in the vehicles trunk. The investigator testified to this in court while under oath. He also confirmed to the court that he had encountered this particular smell in the past, in the course of his duties as a homicide investigator. His experiences in this area are well and clearly documented, making him an extremely credible witness.
- The tow yard manager noted the smell when he was interviewed by LE. While by no means an expert, he was able to directly relate the smell to one that he had encountered previously in a situation that involved a dead and decomposing human corpse (the 5 day old suicide in a diferent car).
- a reluctant witness does admit to investigators that yes, he did notice the smell at the same time as the tow yard manager, and they did have some discussion of it.
- The air tests done at the body farm showed strong traces of the specific patern of chemical byproducts found in human decomposition. While a new test, which has not yet been fully used in court, it does use well proven technology, procedures and principles, that have been used many time in courts. While it is probably not enough and sufficiently unproven to be used as the soul source of evidence, it is more then sufficient to act as a secondary coraborating piece of evidence that supports other information, such as witness statements, search dog hits and lab test results.
- Stains showing bodily fluids discharged during decomposition of a human body are found in the trunk. This test is done by the FBI crime lab. Commonly recognized as one of, if not the, best in the world. Almost unimpeachable in court, absent a clear example of gross negligence. The witness statements, dog hits and independent air tests pretty much rule out any such negligence or error.
- human hair found in the trunk shows the bacterial ring commonly only observed post mortem.
So right there is 7 completely independent items that coraborate and back up the cadaver dogs hits. Question the dogs capabilities all you want, but the results will not change. the dogs detected death in that trunk, the humans detected death in that trunk, and the lab tests detected death in that trunk. 2 dogs, 4 humans, and at least 3 lab diferent lab tests. Undermining one of these elements will not make the others go away.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 12:53 AM
Cadaver dogs already been questioned Straitfan!
Now questioning the "air testing". By the way, if you Google University of Tennessee Body Farm, you will find the type of information you are looking for but probably not the right answers you hope for.
Not sure what you mean as I am by no means questioning either the dogs nor the "air testing".... I am sure there is scientific proof behind what they do... Most people wouldn't have to worry about either the dogs/air testing if they didn't do anything :(
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 12:55 AM
Straitfan,
I meant nothing towards you.....I was saying that the OP has already questioned the cadaver dogs and is now questioning the air tests.....not you at all friend!
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 12:56 AM
If Casey killed Caylee, I just can't see her being smart enough to hid the body as well as she has. If she has a drug problem then I can tell you they are not known to cover their tracks well.
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 12:56 AM
All I have to say is this...
Cadaver dogs I believe...they can have an accuracy of 65-95% depending on the dog and the handler.
Body Farm, I can believe that too. Chemical decomposition is real and detectable.
But I don't trust the terms used by LE such as "likely" and "apparently" I always thought that DNA either was or wasn't. I don't like the loose terminology they use.
Also the chloroform thing, if Casey did intend on harming her child, why the heck use Cholorform?? That stuff is used to take down someone big! Not a child. Seriously, you can rag someone 200lbs with that stuff and it's lights out in 10 seconds...or less
There are plenty of over the counter and illegal drugs that would have been easier to get.
Maybe she was a part of or witness to someone else being murdered and that's why she's not talking. It's not entirely impossible.
Anyway...don't start throwing stones at me or anything...it's all IMO
seagull65
09-05-2008, 12:57 AM
When and if any of the above "evidence" is actually admitted as evidence in a court case, then we will get to hear the details of what evidence actually has been collected, how it was obtained, etc. So far, all formal statements from the authorities have been couched in qualifying statements such as "could suggest", "may be" etc. It's the media who have claimed that conclusive evidence has been found. We won't know until charges are actually brought and any evidence is presented in court.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 12:59 AM
Seagull,
With respect, law enforcement are using terms such as "could suggest" and "may be" because they are holding evidence not yet released. Law enforcement will not verify any evidence until they are ready to release it or use it in a court of law.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:00 AM
Trapshooter, no problem :) This case must be getting to me tonight (again) never seen nothing like it. Just hoping the LE brings it to court , Caylee is found and it comes to an end so these unbelievable lies will stop, this sweet baby never deserved any of this.. Have a great nite :)
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:01 AM
couldn't agree with you more about the chloroform, tiffertots. No need to try to get chloroform to sedate a child, a sicko who would do that could use any easily obtained over the counter or prescription medication for that purpose. If anyone who was using Casey's car actually was carrying chloroform around in the trunk, I've asked (and I've seen other people posting the same), whether this might have been for use in drug manufacturing or even check washing or how else it might be used. Someone posted on another thread that chloroform can be used in meth production. Hope the child was not accidentally harmed by exposure to fumes or something.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:02 AM
All I have to say is this...
Cadaver dogs I believe...they can have an accuracy of 65-95% depending on the dog and the handler.
Body Farm, I can believe that too. Chemical decomposition is real and detectable.
But I don't trust the terms used by LE such as "likely" and "apparently" I always thought that DNA either was or wasn't. I don't like the loose terminology they use.
Also the chloroform thing, if Casey did intend on harming her child, why the heck use Cholorform?? That stuff is used to take down someone big! Not a child. Seriously, you can rag someone 200lbs with that stuff and it's lights out in 10 seconds...or less
There are plenty of over the counter and illegal drugs that would have been easier to get.
Maybe she was a part of or witness to someone else being murdered and that's why she's not talking. It's not entirely impossible.
Anyway...don't start throwing stones at me or anything...it's all IMO
I too have wondered about the use of chloroform. I am thinking that whatever they used to clean the trunk mixed and made chloroform. JMO
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:03 AM
When and if any of the above "evidence" is actually admitted as evidence in a court case, then we will get to hear the details of what evidence actually has been collected, how it was obtained, etc. So far, all formal statements from the authorities have been couched in qualifying statements such as "could suggest", "may be" etc. It's the media who have claimed that conclusive evidence has been found. We won't know until charges are actually brought and any evidence is presented in court.
LE is being careful not to show their hand IMO. I respect the fact that they have tried so hard to find that child before they release any information to the public.
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 01:04 AM
I didn't know that about meth...hmmm
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:04 AM
Seagull,
With respect, law enforcement are using terms such as "could suggest" and "may be" because they are holding evidence not yet released. Law enforcement will not verify any evidence until they are ready to release it or use it in a court of law.
Sorry TS...didn't see your post.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:04 AM
If Casey killed Caylee, I just can't see her being smart enough to hid the body as well as she has. If she has a drug problem then I can tell you they are not known to cover their tracks well.
that's a very good point.
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:04 AM
All I have to say is this...
Cadaver dogs I believe...they can have an accuracy of 65-95% depending on the dog and the handler.
Body Farm, I can believe that too. Chemical decomposition is real and detectable.
But I don't trust the terms used by LE such as "likely" and "apparently" I always thought that DNA either was or wasn't. I don't like the loose terminology they use.
Also the chloroform thing, if Casey did intend on harming her child, why the heck use Cholorform?? That stuff is used to take down someone big! Not a child. Seriously, you can rag someone 200lbs with that stuff and it's lights out in 10 seconds...or less
There are plenty of over the counter and illegal drugs that would have been easier to get.
Maybe she was a part of or witness to someone else being murdered and that's why she's not talking. It's not entirely impossible.
Anyway...don't start throwing stones at me or anything...it's all IMO
I think as other posters have already well covered, LE is holding alot back as they well should.
Casey may get out on bond, but IMO if I were her? I'd feel safer in jail!
Lets not forget the cell phone picture of Caylee taken by the hairdresser with the bruises.
IMOO, from what we know, Casey had a lot of anger...there was a big fight the last day Caylee was seen...liars are huge cowards. Cowards take their anger and frustration on people they CAN hurt and get away with it...little helpless people that they are probably deathly jealous of.
Whatever defense leanings I want to dredge up...I just remember we are dealing with a shameless liar who would rob her family and friends blind...thats my starting point.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:05 AM
Exactly Trapshooter! Like they will lay it out prior to court, lol!
To Tiffertots, Casey has no reason to worry, she is in JAIL! Don't believe anyone on the "outside" is going to get her..
faefrost
09-05-2008, 01:06 AM
When and if any of the above "evidence" is actually admitted as evidence in a court case, then we will get to hear the details of what evidence actually has been collected, how it was obtained, etc. So far, all formal statements from the authorities have been couched in qualifying statements such as "could suggest", "may be" etc. It's the media who have claimed that conclusive evidence has been found. We won't know until charges are actually brought and any evidence is presented in court.
Some pieces of the "evidence" have already been admitted to court. The lead investigator testified in court under oath at the bail hearing. As were the 911 tapes of the excited utterance, and testimony by the dog handlers. Witness statements were made on sworn dicuments. Those who made them can and will face criminal charges if they change their testimony at this point.
The lab forensics are the only things that have not yet been formally admitted to the court.
Amster
09-05-2008, 01:06 AM
Exactly Trapshooter! Like they will lay it out prior to court, lol!
To Tiffertots, Casey has no reason to worry, she is in JAIL! Don't believe anyone on the "outside" is going to get her..
She's getting out of jail in a few hours....
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:06 AM
couldn't agree with you more about the chloroform, tiffertots. No need to try to get chloroform to sedate a child, a sicko who would do that could use any easily obtained over the counter or prescription medication for that purpose. If anyone who was using Casey's car actually was carrying chloroform around in the trunk, I've asked (and I've seen other people posting the same), whether this might have been for use in drug manufacturing or even check washing or how else it might be used. Someone posted on another thread that chloroform can be used in meth production. Hope the child was not accidentally harmed by exposure to fumes or something.
If anyone using Casey's car? Are you serious?
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:07 AM
LE is being careful not to show their hand IMO. I respect the fact that they have tried so hard to find that child before they release any information to the public.
I'm sure you are right, but have they searched anyplace but the grandparents' house, ponds, and fields?
I wonder if they ever did any forensics in the apartments and cars of the friends and roommates at the apartments where she had been staying, or subpoenaed their computer records, phone records, or invited them to take a voluntary polygraph?
Likewise with some of the other people outside the family...
I was fence sitting up until the scientific evidence was announced. And when the FBI found significant amounts of chloroform in the trunk, and then the search term on the laptop, common sense said, "foul play!" But there are still many unanswered questions, so definitive conclusions can’t be drawn just yet.
This case is one big puzzle, and I look forward to the day when all the pieces fit together. Ladies and gentlemen, we’re just getting started!
As an aside, I hope Ann Rule considers writing another bestseller based on the facts of this case. No one would do a better job, as she’s known for writing fascinating true crime stories obout Narcissistic, Sociopathic female killers… Ann Rule rules!
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:08 AM
Straitfan,
Someone has already posted bond for Casey.....again! She will be out mid-morning!
Thinaire...what cell phone pictures of Caylee with bruises? I missed that somewhere along the way?
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 01:08 AM
what 2 yr old doesn't have bruises. I have three little girls who have had so many bumps and bruises it was crazy. And I have never hurt my kids!
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:09 AM
As regards to the Chloroform and why (I'm guessing here) someone would use it versus drugs, maybe because people that do things such as this know drugs could be detected in one's body even after death...
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:09 AM
If anyone using Casey's car? Are you serious?
I mean her parents' car that she was using while she was living at RM/JP/AH's apartment and then TL and his roommates place. Didn't I read on one of the other threads that Tony's car was at a repair place for a while? Did anyone other than Casey use her car? With or without her present. Who knows? So few facts known thus far in this case.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:10 AM
I'm sure you are right, but have they searched anyplace but the grandparents' house, ponds, and fields?
I wonder if they ever did any forensics in the apartments and cars of the friends and roommates at the apartments where she had been staying, or subpoenaed their computer records, phone records, or invited them to take a voluntary polygraph?
Likewise with some of the other people outside the family...
Why would they search any other place Seagull? The cadaver dogs hit on the Anthony's property and the trunk of Casey's car!
Why would they need to do forensics in the friend's apartment and cars?
All this could end IF Casey would tell the TRUTH!
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:10 AM
I'm sure you are right, but have they searched anyplace but the grandparents' house, ponds, and fields?
I wonder if they ever did any forensics in the apartments and cars of the friends and roommates at the apartments where she had been staying, or subpoenaed their computer records, phone records, or invited them to take a voluntary polygraph?
Likewise with some of the other people outside the family...
I understand what you're saying...but let the family go first with that polygraph and I might jump in with additional testing. Let's rule them out first. Makes the most sense...and it's been done countless times in other cases.
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:10 AM
Straitfan,
Someone has already posted bond for Casey.....again! She will be out mid-morning!
Thinaire...what cell phone pictures of Caylee with bruises? I missed that somewhere along the way?
Hi Trap,
I'd have to dig through all the old posts...but there is a legitimate source for that info...a hairdresser took cell phone pics of Caylee and turned them over to LE early on. Just too much 2+2+2+ adding up for me to see that halo over Casey's head :hand:
tiffertots
09-05-2008, 01:11 AM
anyway...it's past my bedtime...i'm outta here
goodnite to all
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:11 AM
I'm sure you are right, but have they searched anyplace but the grandparents' house, ponds, and fields?
I wonder if they ever did any forensics in the apartments and cars of the friends and roommates at the apartments where she had been staying, or subpoenaed their computer records, phone records, or invited them to take a voluntary polygraph?
Likewise with some of the other people outside the family...
They can't investigate the ENTIRE population of the US! They go way the leads take them!!! To bad Casey won't ever have $$$$ to reimburse the State of FL for their tax dollars.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:11 AM
Thanks Thinaire!
STEADFAST
09-05-2008, 01:12 AM
If Casey killed Caylee, I just can't see her being smart enough to hid the body as well as she has. If she has a drug problem then I can tell you they are not known to cover their tracks well.
Maybe that's why she didn't report Caylee missing. There are plenty of places around Orlando where you could put a body and no one would happen to run across it. Add the time you buy by not reporting the disappearance, time for aligators and animals to get to it. In regard to the trunk of her car, she didn't cover her tracks very well considering all the forensic evidence that has come out of it. Plus, she had possibly the worst cover story/alibi ever!
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:13 AM
I'm sure you are right, but have they searched anyplace but the grandparents' house, ponds, and fields?
I wonder if they ever did any forensics in the apartments and cars of the friends and roommates at the apartments where she had been staying, or subpoenaed their computer records, phone records, or invited them to take a voluntary polygraph?
Likewise with some of the other people outside the family...
To add, I'm sure they've looked at everyone's phone records. They would also have to have a reason to get a search warrant for evidence in friend's apartments...and without anyone coming forth and saying anything why would they look there?
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:13 AM
Hi Trap,
I'd have to dig through all the old posts...but there is a legitimate source for that info...a hairdresser took cell phone pics of Caylee and turned them over to LE early on. Just too much 2+2+2+ adding up for me to see that halo over Casey's head :hand:
I think it was also mentioned at the bond hearing or around that time (?)
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:14 AM
I heard the low bond was posted but I thought she was staying because of the 1/2 million??? Whose going to Babysit her a$$ this time??
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:15 AM
Straitfan,
I don't know who will be babysitting her! She doesn't have the Padilla's team this time protecting her! Can you imagine the mess of protesters that will show up now? Lord have mercy!
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:16 AM
I too have wondered about the use of chloroform. I am thinking that whatever they used to clean the trunk mixed and made chloroform. JMO
Very possible. Supposedly urine and chlorine can also create it. Like if someone threw a swim diaper in the trunk when leaving theapartment pool. But then you have to add in who had access to the laptop and was looking up the chloroform info, what kind of info exactly were they researching, when were they looking it up, etc.
Chloroform is also used in forensics supposedly, so is it possible this is how some got there (I'm not implying planting evidence, I mean just during routine forensics/research on the evidence.)
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:16 AM
They can't investigate the ENTIRE population of the US! They go way the leads take them!!! To bad Casey won't ever have $$$$ to reimburse the State of FL for their tax dollars.
The countless hours LE has put into this case in hoping to find this child is simply amazing. G-d bless them.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:16 AM
I think as other posters have already well covered, LE is holding alot back as they well should.
Casey may get out on bond, but IMO if I were her? I'd feel safer in jail!
Lets not forget the cell phone picture of Caylee taken by the hairdresser with the bruises.
IMOO, from what we know, Casey had a lot of anger...there was a big fight the last day Caylee was seen...liars are huge cowards. Cowards take their anger and frustration on people they CAN hurt and get away with it...little helpless people that they are probably deathly jealous of.
Whatever defense leanings I want to dredge up...I just remember we are dealing with a shameless liar who would rob her family and friends blind...thats my starting point.
I have a brother who is a drug addict. He lies and he has robbed us blind but he would never harm a child. He lies and steals to pay for his drug habit. But he has never hurt anyone but himself physically.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:18 AM
To add, I'm sure they've looked at everyone's phone records. They would also have to have a reason to get a search warrant for evidence in friend's apartments...and without anyone coming forth and saying anything why would they look there?
Even though she had been living in those places and had had the child there? Even though that was her boyfriend and the only person she wanted to contact when she was arrested? I would think they'd be able to get a warrant no problem.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:18 AM
I mean her parents' car that she was using while she was living at RM/JP/AH's apartment and then TL and his roommates place. Didn't I read on one of the other threads that Tony's car was at a repair place for a while? Did anyone other than Casey use her car? With or without her present. Who knows? So few facts known thus far in this case.
Sorry, I never heard Tony having use of her car. How could she go to work then?
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:18 AM
Straitfan,
Someone has already posted bond for Casey.....again! She will be out mid-morning!
Thinaire...what cell phone pictures of Caylee with bruises? I missed that somewhere along the way?
Yay Trap, I found it...its in this article link down a few paragraphs...
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2008/7/23/casey_anthony_remains_in_jail.html
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:19 AM
Ditto Steadfast, thank God she wasnt smart enough to remove DNA evidence or she may never pay for this.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:19 AM
She seems to have been mostly working only for him helping with his promotions at the club at that stage, and cooking and cleaning at his apartment.
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:19 AM
I have a brother who is a drug addict. He lies and he has robbed us blind but he would never harm a child. He lies and steals to pay for his drug habit. But he has never hurt anyone but himself physically.
Sorry MCDRAW...I was more thinking of the POI when I wrote that...you are right...
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:20 AM
Maybe that's why she didn't report Caylee missing. There are plenty of places around Orlando where you could put a body and no one would happen to run across it. Add the time you buy by not reporting the disappearance, time for aligators and animals to get to it. In regard to the trunk of her car, she didn't cover her tracks very well considering all the forensic evidence that has come out of it. Plus, she had possibly the worst cover story/alibi ever!
You are correct. I just think people are giving Casey a little too much credit. I just don't see her as all that smart.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:21 AM
I have a brother who is a drug addict. He lies and he has robbed us blind but he would never harm a child. He lies and steals to pay for his drug habit. But he has never hurt anyone but himself physically.
God bless your brother.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:23 AM
Yay Trap, I found it...its in this article link down a few paragraphs...
http://www.cfnews13.com/News/Local/2008/7/23/casey_anthony_remains_in_jail.html
Thanks so much Thinaire!
I had never read that until now! That poor sweet Caylee. I cannot and don't want to imagine what terrible fate ended her precious life.
kwmred
09-05-2008, 01:24 AM
Very possible. Supposedly urine and chlorine can also create it. Like if someone threw a swim diaper in the trunk when leaving theapartment pool. But then you have to add in who had access to the laptop and was looking up the chloroform info, what kind of info exactly were they researching, when were they looking it up, etc.
Chloroform is also used in forensics supposedly, so is it possible this is how some got there (I'm not implying planting evidence, I mean just during routine forensics/research on the evidence.)
I think this myth was pretty much cleared up on Nancy Grace tonight. This was not a trace amount found in the car.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:24 AM
Even though she had been living in those places and had had the child there? Even though that was her boyfriend and the only person she wanted to contact when she was arrested? I would think they'd be able to get a warrant no problem.
Sure they would have gotten a search warrant if it were necessary! He only saw Caylee 2 or 3 times, WHY would he do anything, not to mention he was in NY during some of that time period which I am sure LE ck'd. Casey is the one who clearly just "wanted a man"
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:26 AM
Even though she had been living in those places and had had the child there? Even though that was her boyfriend and the only person she wanted to contact when she was arrested? I would think they'd be able to get a warrant no problem.
I agree on Tony's place...but Caylee hadn't been there for some time prior to her going missing. And if she was there, who better than Casey to say something. You can't expect LE to be psychic.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:27 AM
Sorry MCDRAW...I was more thinking of the POI when I wrote that...you are right...
No offense taken.
I don't know if Casey is a drug addict but if she is they are always making up lies. I just know what my family has dealt with. And we pressed charges for way less than what Casey has been charged with. So far her family has not impressed me. With Cindy's statement about TES, I have begun to wonder who is protecting who.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:27 AM
She seems to have been mostly working only for him helping with his promotions at the club at that stage, and cooking and cleaning at his apartment.
That's not what she told LE.
ETA: or Tony
I understand what you're saying...but let the family go first with that polygraph and I might jump in with additional testing. Let's rule them out first. Makes the most sense...and it's been done countless times in other cases.
I dunno, RR0004... Since Casey's a pathological liar, she might pass a polygraph. I wonder what a shrink would say about that? Are there any shrinks on the board?!
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:29 AM
Hi Trap,
I'd have to dig through all the old posts...but there is a legitimate source for that info...a hairdresser took cell phone pics of Caylee and turned them over to LE early on. Just too much 2+2+2+ adding up for me to see that halo over Casey's head :hand:
I definitely do remember talk of that early on on some of the threads. I don't remember ever actually seeing a picture that showed it though. So far, all the pictures I've seen just show a healthy, happy looking child. Sometimes when people are going on about, she looks nervous in the video where she's looking at her book, she looks disturbed, her speech in the video is underdeveloped for her age, her speech is too sophisticated for her age, she looks tired, she looks abused, she looks this and that, I just have to laugh because she honestly looks perfectly normal and healthy to me. She looks healthier than a lot of toddlers you see nowadays, so many are too thin nowadays. And she is always dressed fine, clean, nicely groomed hair, etc. She looks well cared for in all the pictures.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:29 AM
Very possible. Supposedly urine and chlorine can also create it. Like if someone threw a swim diaper in the trunk when leaving theapartment pool. But then you have to add in who had access to the laptop and was looking up the chloroform info, what kind of info exactly were they researching, when were they looking it up, etc.
Chloroform is also used in forensics supposedly, so is it possible this is how some got there (I'm not implying planting evidence, I mean just during routine forensics/research on the evidence.)
Seagull,
We are not forensic scientists so we do not have these answers. You are wanting US to say that the police planted evidence of chloroform in the trunk of the car? According to LE, there were "substantial amounts" of chloroform in the trunk, not traces, like the poster mentioned above.
Was Casey's laptop with her when she was at her boyfriend's apartment? Why does it always have to be someone else to blame and not placing the blame where it should be? On Casey!
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:30 AM
God bless your brother.
Thank you. I will say it has been one of the toughest issues we have ever had to deal with as a family.
Ladytazz
09-05-2008, 01:30 AM
I was fence sitting up until the scientific evidence was announced. And when the FBI found significant amounts of chloroform in the trunk, and then the search term on the laptop, common sense said, "foul play!" But there are still many unanswered questions, so definitive conclusions can’t be drawn just yet.
This case is one big puzzle, and I look forward to the day when all the pieces fit together. Ladies and gentlemen, we’re just getting started!
As an aside, I hope Ann Rule considers writing another bestseller based on the facts of this case. No one would do a better job, as she’s known for writing fascinating true crime stories obout Narcissistic, Sociopathic female killers… Ann Rule rules!
I believe that Ann has stated that she doesn't write a book about a case until it has been completely resolved in a court of law. I agree this would be a great case for her.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:31 AM
That's not what she told LE.
ETA: or Tony
I know that's not what she told LE, and she also told her family adamantly in the jailhouse phone call that Tony had nothing to do with Caylee's disappearance....but still...
why wouldn't LE do forensics at those apartments, I'm just surprised.
what does ETA: or Tony mean?
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:32 AM
No offense taken.
I don't know if Casey is a drug addict but if she is they are always making up lies. I just know what my family has dealt with. And we pressed charges for way less than what Casey has been charged with. So far her family has not impressed me. With Cindy's statement about TES, I have begun to wonder who is protecting who.
MCDRAW,
Any person that could make such a statement about Texas Equusearch is either evil or spinning their own web of lies! Tim Miller is doing this out of the goodness of his heart. Tim Miller is taking a crime committed against his OWN daughter and turning it into a non-profit search and rescue organization! I really thought that Cindy couldn't sink any lower, but in my opinion, she sunk to the bottom when she made that statement about TES!
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:32 AM
I dunno, RR0004... Since Casey's a pathological liar, she might pass a polygraph. I wonder what a shrink would say about that? Are there any shrinks on the board?!
I read once if someone convinces themselves they are innocent...they could pass a polygraph.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:33 AM
MCDRAW,
Any person that could make such a statement about Texas Equusearch is either evil or spinning their own web of lies! Tim Miller is doing this out of the goodness of his heart. Tim Miller is taking a crime committed against his OWN daughter and turning it into a non-profit search and rescue organization! I really thought that Cindy couldn't sink any lower, but in my opinion, she sunk to the bottom when she made that statement about TES!
I agree!
kwmred
09-05-2008, 01:33 AM
As regards to the Chloroform and why (I'm guessing here) someone would use it versus drugs, maybe because people that do things such as this know drugs could be detected in one's body even after death...
I was just going to post this!!!
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:34 AM
Seagull,
We are not forensic scientists so we do not have these answers. You are wanting US to say that the police planted evidence of chloroform in the trunk of the car? According to LE, there were "substantial amounts" of chloroform in the trunk, not traces, like the poster mentioned above.
Was Casey's laptop with her when she was at her boyfriend's apartment? Why does it always have to be someone else to blame and not placing the blame where it should be? On Casey!
Everyone knows that it's possible that Casey is responsible, but this is the thread for the alternative theories. On this thread we're questioning all the other possibilities, who were ALL the people who had access, etc.
I said clearly in my post that I am NOT saying the police planted any evidence! Please read again :)
Pondering Mind
09-05-2008, 01:35 AM
You know one of the things that bother me most? The fact that I have never known of anyone who has lost a child, as I and many other posters here have (whether in death or kidnapping) who was not absolutly devastated. I realize that people react differently, but hearing that one phone call where Casey said she had to keep her composure to talk to investigators does not make sense. I ask anyone posting here with children or granchildren: Would It Even Be Possible For You To Stay Composed? For me, my world turned upside down and I wasn't composed, couldn't have been if my very life depended on it. I just wanted to die. Anybody relate?
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:35 AM
I definitely do remember talk of that early on on some of the threads. I don't remember ever actually seeing a picture that showed it though. So far, all the pictures I've seen just show a healthy, happy looking child. Sometimes when people are going on about, she looks nervous in the video where she's looking at her book, she looks disturbed, her speech in the video is underdeveloped for her age, her speech is too sophisticated for her age, she looks tired, she looks abused, she looks this and that, I just have to laugh because she honestly looks perfectly normal and healthy to me. She looks healthier than a lot of toddlers you see nowadays, so many are too thin nowadays. And she is always dressed fine, clean, nicely groomed hair, etc. She looks well cared for in all the pictures.
"WAS" well cared for....
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:36 AM
Are you sure LE said there were substantial amounts of chloroform, and that there is definitely no possible innocent explanation? Or was it the media who misconstrued that or are just hyping it up a bit? I'm pretty sure the LE have only couched their statements in very conservative terms so far.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:37 AM
Seagull,
We are not forensic scientists so we do not have these answers. You are wanting US to say that the police planted evidence of chloroform in the trunk of the car? According to LE, there were "substantial amounts" of chloroform in the trunk, not traces, like the poster mentioned above.
Was Casey's laptop with her when she was at her boyfriend's apartment? Why does it always have to be someone else to blame and not placing the blame where it should be? On Casey!
My problem with the chloroform search is again, I think she is being given too much credit. I just can't see her being able to follow the instructions. I would assume you would have to know a little about chemicals. I'm not saying she is innocent ( or guilty) just beginning to think she may have had help.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:37 AM
I'm sorry Seagull but it seems to me as if you are "hoping" we will say that urine & clorox, et al, will create chloroform. Dr. Kobilinsky on Nancy Grace said this WILL NOT happen.
Please carry on with the other theories.....
faefrost
09-05-2008, 01:38 AM
Very possible. Supposedly urine and chlorine can also create it. Like if someone threw a swim diaper in the trunk when leaving theapartment pool. But then you have to add in who had access to the laptop and was looking up the chloroform info, what kind of info exactly were they researching, when were they looking it up, etc.
Chloroform is also used in forensics supposedly, so is it possible this is how some got there (I'm not implying planting evidence, I mean just during routine forensics/research on the evidence.)
Several experts have come forward today to emphatically state that the chloroform vapors that the FBI detected in the trunk could only come from manufactured pure comercially available chloroform. The vapors could not come from an accidental mixing such as you describe. (I believe an accidental mixing would also release chlorine gas, which would be detectable. (and which was not detected) For the ammount of chloroform vapor they detected, there would have been enough chlorine released to in all liklihood kill the cars driver as well).
And lets be frank here. If it was possible for a pee soaked diaper to react with chlorinated pool water to create a substantial amount of chloroform vapor, then we would be seeing cases of it at every pool and waterpark across the world. A very nice shot at misdirection however. (hmmm now where have I heard dirty diaper theories before, or who keeps repeating them insesantly despite overwelming evidence to the contrary)
As far as test contamination at the FBI lab. 2 things work against that theory. The FBI lab uses chloroform in DNA labs. They detected chloroform vapors in the trunk of the car. Chances are the samples would never be in the same room as Chloroform in the FBI. But even given the extremely remote possibility of lab contamination, it still doesn't explain the computer searches and documents. Someone used Casey's computer to look up chloroform.
Once again we have various pieces of evidence coroborating and reinforcing each other. This greatly limits the possible and reasonable conclusions that can be derived from the evidence.
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:38 AM
Are you sure LE said there were substantial amounts of chloroform, and that there is definitely no possible innocent explanation? Or was it the media who misconstrued that or are just hyping it up a bit? I'm pretty sure the LE have only couched their statements in very conservative terms so far.
Have to leave this thread...Casey's possible defense does not interest me...
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:39 AM
Are you sure LE said there were substantial amounts of chloroform, and that there is definitely no possible innocent explanation? Or was it the media who misconstrued that or are just hyping it up a bit? I'm pretty sure the LE have only couched their statements in very conservative terms so far.
According to Nancy Grace, LE DID say "substantial amounts".
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:39 AM
You know one of the things that bother me most? The fact that I have never known of anyone who has lost a child, as I and many other posters here have (whether in death or kidnapping) who was not absolutly devastated. I realize that people react differently, but hearing that one phone call where Casey said she had to keep her composure to talk to investigators does not make sense. I ask anyone posting here with children or granchildren: Would It Even Be Possible For You To Stay Composed? For me, my world turned upside down and I wasn't composed, couldn't have been if my very life depended on it. I just wanted to die. Anybody relate?
You are right that it doesn't make sense (unless she really thought, whether correctly or not, that her child was safe or with a known person or was thinking the child would be returned.) Or, if she suffers from mental illness, (purely speculation, I'm not saying she does), or if she's addled from drugs, or if she's in shock, or has a cognitive problem that this is not even registering, etc etc.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:40 AM
I know that's not what she told LE, and she also told her family adamantly in the jailhouse phone call that Tony had nothing to do with Caylee's disappearance....but still...
why wouldn't LE do forensics at those apartments, I'm just surprised.
what does ETA: or Tony mean?
edited to add...she told Tony she was working for Universal IIRC.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:40 AM
Have to leave this thread...Casey's possible defense does not interest me...
I agree Thinaire....we may possibly be subpoenaed to testify!
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:41 AM
I know that's not what she told LE, and she also told her family adamantly in the jailhouse phone call that Tony had nothing to do with Caylee's disappearance....but still...
why wouldn't LE do forensics at those apartments, I'm just surprised.
what does ETA: or Tony mean?
Sure Tony wants NOTHING to do with her now so she needs to worry about herself, to the general public he appears WAY more credible. BTW, working for him, thinking she wormed her way to that job along with the cooking and cleaning..
From a person to not have ONE single friend or family (well except her gang) standing up, speaks VOLUMNS!
I believe that Ann has stated that she doesn't write a book about a case until it has been completely resolved in a court of law. I agree this would be a great case for her.
Waz up, Ladytazz?!
Yes, Ann attends trials, investigates family history and any mental illness (Cindy's father and mother; George's father and mother), talks with friends, LE, etc. and then writes. I guess that's why her books are so good!
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:42 AM
Several experts have come forward today to emphatically state that the chloroform vapors that the FBI detected in the trunk could only come from manufactured pure comercially available chloroform. The vapors could not come from an accidental mixing such as you describe. (I believe an accidental mixing would also release chlorine gas, which would be detectable. (and which was not detected) For the ammount of chloroform vapor they detected, there would have been enough chlorine released to in all liklihood kill the cars driver as well).
And lets be frank here. If it was possible for a pee soaked diaper to react with chlorinated pool water to create a substantial amount of chloroform vapor, then we would be seeing cases of it at every pool and waterpark across the world. A very nice shot at misdirection however. (hmmm now where have I heard dirty diaper theories before, or who keeps repeating them insesantly despite overwelming evidence to the contrary)
As far as test contamination at the FBI lab. 2 things work against that theory. The FBI lab uses chloroform in DNA labs. They detected chloroform vapors in the trunk of the car. Chances are the samples would never be in the same room as Chloroform in the FBI. But even given the extremely remote possibility of lab contamination, it still doesn't explain the computer searches and documents. Someone used Casey's computer to look up chloroform.
Once again we have various pieces of evidence coroborating and reinforcing each other. This greatly limits the possible and reasonable conclusions that can be derived from the evidence.
Thanks Faefrost... great post I don't have the patience!
Remember the Scott Peterson trial? The law students on the various forums? Nuff said...
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:42 AM
According to Nancy Grace, LE DID say "substantial amounts".
But Nancy has been saying the child has to be dead from the first days of the investigation, before any leaks about evidence. For Nancy, Casey's inability to give a coherent story was already cased-closed evidence that she murdered the child. Nancy has been reporting all the evidence news in way stronger terms than the official statements.
kwmred
09-05-2008, 01:43 AM
Are you sure LE said there were substantial amounts of chloroform, and that there is definitely no possible innocent explanation? Or was it the media who misconstrued that or are just hyping it up a bit? I'm pretty sure the LE have only couched their statements in very conservative terms so far.
Not this time, they didn't. These results were confirmed by the FBI who have one of the most trusted labs in the world.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:44 AM
edited to add...she told Tony she was working for Universal IIRC.
According to TL.
Thinaire
09-05-2008, 01:44 AM
I agree Thinaire....we may possibly be subpoenaed to testify!
:silenced: Just reading this thread makes my old brain "see" someone taking notes on a yellow legal pad :innocent: "somewhere"
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:44 AM
I don't think Nancy Grace stated the child was possibly deceased until the air test results came back. Then when some of the FBI lab results came in, she stated she thinks this poor child is "probably" dead.
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 01:45 AM
I definitely do remember talk of that early on on some of the threads. I don't remember ever actually seeing a picture that showed it though. So far, all the pictures I've seen just show a healthy, happy looking child. Sometimes when people are going on about, she looks nervous in the video where she's looking at her book, she looks disturbed, her speech in the video is underdeveloped for her age, her speech is too sophisticated for her age, she looks tired, she looks abused, she looks this and that, I just have to laugh because she honestly looks perfectly normal and healthy to me. She looks healthier than a lot of toddlers you see nowadays, so many are too thin nowadays. And she is always dressed fine, clean, nicely groomed hair, etc. She looks well cared for in all the pictures.
I'd love to see a single posted fact on this thread regarding that same child's health today. A detailed list of supporting evidence would be nice. Validated, credible sightings? Leads pointing towards a living, breathing child, that actually can be investigated in an unimpeded manner? Facts supporting that Caylee is still dressed fine, is clean, well-groomed and is still being well-cared for?
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:45 AM
I think this myth was pretty much cleared up on Nancy Grace tonight. This was not a trace amount found in the car.
If anyone has a link to any authority clearing this up in definitive terms, please post it here. Nancy Grace does not count as an authority! That show is pure hype and sensationalism.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:46 AM
You know one of the things that bother me most? The fact that I have never known of anyone who has lost a child, as I and many other posters here have (whether in death or kidnapping) who was not absolutly devastated. I realize that people react differently, but hearing that one phone call where Casey said she had to keep her composure to talk to investigators does not make sense. I ask anyone posting here with children or granchildren: Would It Even Be Possible For You To Stay Composed? For me, my world turned upside down and I wasn't composed, couldn't have been if my very life depended on it. I just wanted to die. Anybody relate?
I've posted this very same sentiment on other threads. Even the fact that your child is missing (and you can't find them for 31 days) would render you immobile. You couldn't go out shopping at Target IMO...let's not forget that one of the checks she stole was used on July 15th (IIRC)...the very day she was picking her girlfriend up at the airport...I'd entertain other theories that are more plausible...but would really appreciate the truth from Miss C.
kwmred
09-05-2008, 01:46 AM
But Nancy has been saying the child has to be dead from the first days of the investigation, before any leaks about evidence. For Nancy, Casey's inability to give a coherent story was already cased-closed evidence that she murdered the child. Nancy has been reporting all the evidence news in way stronger terms than the official statements.
Don't you mean Casey's pack of lies. She wasn't incoherent by any means. She was perfectly calm and composed. Even when her mother showed up to fetch her, she was sticking to the lie that Caylee was fine and with the fake nanny.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:47 AM
Yes Pondering Mind, would never be able to maintain composure and if Casey was my child, she would be talking or else.. I would MAKE sure no one posted bond.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:47 AM
I'd love to see a single posted fact on this thread regarding that same child's health today. A detailed list of supporting evidence would be nice. Validated, credible sightings? Leads pointing towards a living, breathing child, that actually can be investigated in an unimpeded manner? Facts supporting that Caylee is still dressed fine, is clean, well-groomed and is still being well-cared for?
I know it's so important to you that she be dead, PotatoHead. Heaven forbid anyone should keep hope until evidence to the contrary is presented officially.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:48 AM
Don't you mean Casey's pack of lies. She wasn't incoherent by any means. She was perfectly calm and composed. Even when her mother showed up to fetch her, she was sticking to the lie that Caylee was fine and with the fake nanny.
incoherent means not making sense, it doesn't mean upset.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:48 AM
But Nancy has been saying the child has to be dead from the first days of the investigation, before any leaks about evidence. For Nancy, Casey's inability to give a coherent story was already cased-closed evidence that she murdered the child. Nancy has been reporting all the evidence news in way stronger terms than the official statements.
She first thought it to be "trace amounts" then researched and found LE said "substantial".
wildflowerTN
09-05-2008, 01:50 AM
I know it's so important to you that she be dead, PotatoHead. Heaven forbid anyone should keep hope until evidence to the contrary is presented officially.
That is really unfair..I guess PotatoHead is going to be the one to put Caylee in a coffin.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:51 AM
I know it's so important to you that she be dead, PotatoHead. Heaven forbid anyone should keep hope until evidence to the contrary is presented officially.
Casey could always talk (coherently). That would work.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:51 AM
You know one of the things that bother me most? The fact that I have never known of anyone who has lost a child, as I and many other posters here have (whether in death or kidnapping) who was not absolutly devastated. I realize that people react differently, but hearing that one phone call where Casey said she had to keep her composure to talk to investigators does not make sense. I ask anyone posting here with children or granchildren: Would It Even Be Possible For You To Stay Composed? For me, my world turned upside down and I wasn't composed, couldn't have been if my very life depended on it. I just wanted to die. Anybody relate?
I am sorry for your loss. I can only imagine and NO I could not be composed.
Pondering Mind
09-05-2008, 01:51 AM
You are right that it doesn't make sense (unless she really thought, whether correctly or not, that her child was safe or with a known person or was thinking the child would be returned.) Or, if she suffers from mental illness, (purely speculation, I'm not saying she does), or if she's addled from drugs, or if she's in shock, or has a cognitive problem that this is not even registering, etc etc.
I guess I am getting off topic and should move on, but I guess I just feel after 31 days she would not know that Caylee was ok, how could she? Wouldn't the GP have some clue about any mental illness/drugs etc. If it was that bad, she couldn't hide it, I've been around enough to know that. And as far as shock, I was 16, my ex husband 20 when my son died of SIDS and I found him in his crib. We were in SHOCK but still managed to call 911. It just was something even at that young age that we didn't give a secong thought to not doing. Sorry, I'll move along now. JMHO
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:51 AM
Not this time, they didn't. These results were confirmed by the FBI who have one of the most trusted labs in the world.
If you can come up with a link for that, please post it here. Of course they are one of the most trusted labs in the world, but I've only heard it stated in the media outlets that the evidence is conclusive, or that there were large amounts of chloroform in the trunk, I have not heard any authority state it in terms anywhere near that strong so far.
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 01:52 AM
Several experts have come forward today to emphatically state that the chloroform vapors that the FBI detected in the trunk could only come from manufactured pure comercially available chloroform. The vapors could not come from an accidental mixing such as you describe. (I believe an accidental mixing would also release chlorine gas, which would be detectable. (and which was not detected) For the ammount of chloroform vapor they detected, there would have been enough chlorine released to in all liklihood kill the cars driver as well).
And lets be frank here. If it was possible for a pee soaked diaper to react with chlorinated pool water to create a substantial amount of chloroform vapor, then we would be seeing cases of it at every pool and waterpark across the world. A very nice shot at misdirection however. (hmmm now where have I heard dirty diaper theories before, or who keeps repeating them insesantly despite overwelming evidence to the contrary)
As far as test contamination at the FBI lab. 2 things work against that theory. The FBI lab uses chloroform in DNA labs. They detected chloroform vapors in the trunk of the car. Chances are the samples would never be in the same room as Chloroform in the FBI. But even given the extremely remote possibility of lab contamination, it still doesn't explain the computer searches and documents. Someone used Casey's computer to look up chloroform.
Once again we have various pieces of evidence coroborating and reinforcing each other. This greatly limits the possible and reasonable conclusions that can be derived from the evidence.
As well, the chloroform that is used in DNA testing is extremely strictly regulated and monitored during all phases of manufacturing these testing formulas. Were you to visit a company that creates forensic testing kits/solutions/chemicals, you would have to pass through multiple levels of security. Chemicals such as morphine, chloroform, etc. are most heavily restricted and stored in a very tightly controlled environment.
Each and every single batch has it's own unique (well documented) signature.
If anyone would like links to a few top-notch companies to explore - PM me.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 01:52 AM
:silenced: Just reading this thread makes my old brain "see" someone taking notes on a yellow legal pad :innocent: "somewhere"
LOL!!! I have a "few thoughts as to the options" myself.
RR0004
09-05-2008, 01:54 AM
If anyone has a link to any authority clearing this up in definitive terms, please post it here. Nancy Grace does not count as an authority! That show is pure hype and sensationalism.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-casey-anthony-jail-090308,0,7110266.story
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/03/fla.missing.girl/?iref=hpmostpop (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/03/fla.missing.girl/?iref=hpmostpop)
ETA: oops sorry...it's not LE
MCDRAW,
Any person that could make such a statement about Texas Equusearch is either evil or spinning their own web of lies! Tim Miller is doing this out of the goodness of his heart. Tim Miller is taking a crime committed against his OWN daughter and turning it into a non-profit search and rescue organization! I really thought that Cindy couldn't sink any lower, but in my opinion, she sunk to the bottom when she made that statement about TES!
Like mother like daughter... Cindy has a PH.D in manipulation but Casey has a Master's. However, Casey is only 2 credits shy of getting her PH.D and will easily graduate with honors by October...
kwmred
09-05-2008, 01:55 AM
incoherent means not making sense, it doesn't mean upset.
incoherent
Adjective
1. unable to express oneself clearly
2. not logically connected or ordered: an incoherent argument
incoherence n
seagull65
09-05-2008, 01:55 AM
I guess I am getting off topic and should move on, but I guess I just feel after 31 days she would not know that Caylee was ok, how could she? Wouldn't the GP have some clue about any mental illness/drugs etc. If it was that bad, she couldn't hide it, I've been around enough to know that. And as far as shock, I was 16, my ex husband 20 when my son died of SIDS and I found him in his crib. We were in SHOCK but still managed to call 911. It just was something even at that young age that we didn't give a secong thought to not doing. Sorry, I'll move along now. JMHO
I agree with you very strongly that Casey's behavior and detached manner are very strange and that all of her statements to police have been very strange and don't even make sense. There could be a lot of causes for that, and I don't know which one it is yet.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 01:55 AM
I know it's so important to you that she be dead, PotatoHead. Heaven forbid anyone should keep hope until evidence to the contrary is presented officially.
Seagull,
NO ONE Here wishes that Caylee is dead, absolutely no one! We have all prayed, cried, hoped.....with all our hearts that she is found alive. To say this to PotatoHead is very hurtful and disrespectful.
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 01:55 AM
If anyone has a link to any authority clearing this up in definitive terms, please post it here. Nancy Grace does not count as an authority! That show is pure hype and sensationalism.
Multiple links over in the chloroform thread posted earlier tonight.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 01:56 AM
I know it's so important to you that she be dead, PotatoHead. Heaven forbid anyone should keep hope until evidence to the contrary is presented officially.
There is always hope until the body is discovered. But even while having hope, you have to face reality. It just isn't looking good for Caylee. I wish it were different but there is too much pointing toward her death. And not enough toward her still being alive. JMO
Pondering Mind
09-05-2008, 01:58 AM
I am sorry for your loss. I can only imagine and NO I could not be composed.
Thanks-I lost my now 23 yr old son (who has a 3 yr old daughter of his own) in toys r us for about 10 minutes once and thought I was going to have a heart attack! He didn't even hear them calling him on the intercom! Whew..
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 01:59 AM
I know it's so important to you that she be dead, PotatoHead. Heaven forbid anyone should keep hope until evidence to the contrary is presented officially.
Actually, it is very, very, very important to me that she be given a proper right of passage. Else I wouldn't bother.
And it is important that 'bullying' people will voice their opinions right back - with facts - in hopes that CAYLEE gets justice.
Your statement above was far more rude than any humorous jab previously sent your way by me.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 02:01 AM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-casey-anthony-jail-090308,0,7110266.story
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/03/fla.missing.girl/?iref=hpmostpop (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/03/fla.missing.girl/?iref=hpmostpop)
ETA: oops sorry...it's not LE
At the first link I only saw the Orlando sentinel saying that the FBI had found chloroform in the trunk (but not what amount, etc, like we were discussing). I couldn't open the second link. But if anyone can find a link where an FBI spokesperson or legal authority is actually saying that large amounts of chloroform were discovered and that they definitely could not have resulted from forensics work or from urine/chlorine mixture, etc, please post it here. (There's a lot of discussion about this on the previous pages of this thread.)
Thanks for those links though
ThoughtElf
09-05-2008, 02:02 AM
I know it's so important to you that she be dead, PotatoHead. Heaven forbid anyone should keep hope until evidence to the contrary is presented officially.
p.s. present a single piece of "evidence" - not a single supporting word that Caylee is alive, vs. picking apart the prosecution's case and building the defense, and I'll be the first one to personally get on my knes and apologize profusely to you.
Until then... I'll watch, read and if so moved, I'll speak up.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 02:02 AM
Actually, it is very, very, very important to me that she be given a proper right of passage. Else I wouldn't bother.
And it is important that 'bullying' people will voice their opinions right back - with facts - in hopes that CAYLEE gets justice.
Your statement above was far more rude than any humorous jab previously sent your way by me.
I'm afraid not. You should have a look over your posts.
shergal
09-05-2008, 02:02 AM
Is it just me, OR do these two seem like the same person???!?!?!?!
Amen, Dejablue. They certainly have similar styles of posting.
Trapshooter
09-05-2008, 02:05 AM
At the first link I only saw the Orlando sentinel saying that the FBI had found chloroform in the trunk (but not what amount, etc, like we were discussing). I couldn't open the second link. But if anyone can find a link where an FBI spokesperson or legal authority is actually saying that large amounts of chloroform were discovered and that they definitely could not have resulted from forensics work or from urine/chlorine mixture, etc, please post it here. (There's a lot of discussion about this on the previous pages of this thread.)
Thanks for those links though
Seagull,
I don't think there is a verification link. If I am not mistaken, the FBI gave out this information to LE and the media but are holding the actual documents until a court hearing.
MCDRAW
09-05-2008, 02:05 AM
Thanks-I lost my now 23 yr old son (who has a 3 yr old daughter of his own) in toys r us for about 10 minutes once and thought I was going to have a heart attack! He didn't even hear them calling him on the intercom! Whew..
I have had a scare like that, when my then two year old who is autistic decided to hide in the middle of some clothes. She could hide, not make a move or a sound for hours. I was terrified. There was only one way in and one way out so I had to make sure I stood where no one could get out the door with her. My son who was 5 found her. After that she staid in a stroller. Again I am sorry about the son you lost from SIDS. That's tough especially for a 16 year old.
seagull65
09-05-2008, 02:06 AM
Thanks-I lost my now 23 yr old son (who has a 3 yr old daughter of his own) in toys r us for about 10 minutes once and thought I was going to have a heart attack! He didn't even hear them calling him on the intercom! Whew..
We lost our son for 15 minutes last May at a Disney resort. It felt like 15 hours, it was absolutely awful. We're were very, very shaken. We were obviously very lucky to find him, he was just fine. I've read similar things from so many parents. I can't even imagine what it's like when hours turn into days, and even longer, like what the Anthonys are going through. I can't imagine the anguish.
Pondering Mind
09-05-2008, 02:09 AM
I agree with you very strongly that Casey's behavior and detached manner are very strange and that all of her statements to police have been very strange and don't even make sense. There could be a lot of causes for that, and I don't know which one it is yet.
Seagull, I wish I held out the same hope that you do and respect your opinion, I just "feel in my gut" that all is not well with this precious little girl Caylee. My prayers are with her, wherever she is tonight.
Jolynna
09-05-2008, 02:09 AM
At the first link I only saw the Orlando sentinel saying that the FBI had found chloroform in the trunk (but not what amount, etc, like we were discussing). I couldn't open the second link. But if anyone can find a link where an FBI spokesperson or legal authority is actually saying that large amounts of chloroform were discovered and that they definitely could not have resulted from forensics work or from urine/chlorine mixture, etc, please post it here. (There's a lot of discussion about this on the previous pages of this thread.)
http://www.wesh.com/news/17397494/detail.html
Expert Deems Possible Chloroform Discovery Significant
Chemist Jeff Flowers, who has testified in state and federal court as an expert, said positive tests for vaporized chloroform mean those results could not have come from anything else -- not cleaning products, not human body fluids or a mixture of anything else.
Flowers said it had to have been pure chloroform, WESH 2's Bob Kealing reported.
"It could not have come from a chemical reaction in the trunk. It's impossible," Flowers said.
Flowers said chloroform can be found in very small amounts in everyday liquid cleaning products. But, he said, chloroform cannot vaporize or get in to the air unless large amounts of it are present.
"That solvent could knock out the driver of the car. It's a very dangerous thing to have that material in your car," Flowers said.
Straitfan
09-05-2008, 02:10 AM
seagull65,
Could you please give a legit reason for defending Casey so profoundly? Do you have another theory and if so could you give your theory? Also, why are you so defensive against LE? Is is past experience or just this particular case?
Thanks
chicoliving
09-05-2008, 02:14 AM
I don't know where any of you got the idea it was OK to talk about other members on the forum. It is a direct violation of the Terms of Service to "out" anyone no matter who you may think that poster could be.
Now would be a good time to review some of the rules.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159
Tricia
09-05-2008, 02:23 AM
thanks for this, is this a coloration band within the shaft of the hair or something to do with the follicle around the root of the hair? Was this part of the leak from the University of Tennessee that did some of the forensics? thanks for any link to this information. I heard one expert on TV saying that you can't tell the difference, that hair that the person lost while alive would appear the same as hair that decomposed with the body and then became detached. But I don't know who that expert was.
If Casey is charged with murder I imagine we'll be hearing experts on both sides.
Dear Seagull,
Thank you for starting this thread... . It's not easy coming to a big board like this and posting a position that is very much in the minority.
Please, everyone do not JUMP on people because they have a different opinion. This case is the most emotional case I have ever seen.
I will start timing people out for a couple of weeks, right off the bat, if I read any more rude posts. On both sides.
Please understand the moderators and I do not like being the heavies here. But we have got to allow a difference of opinion as long as it is within TOS.
End of story.
Thank you again Seagull.
Tricia
Tricia
09-05-2008, 02:29 AM
Thank you, JBean. Oh, they have done both of those things many times already. But I've never hit an alert button on anyone before and just don't do it. I just leave the board before doing that, it's not worth it. If the moderators of a website care they can easily see what certain people are doing repeatedly on the threads to other users. These posters are continually off topic on this thread. But what can you do? Anyway, onward....
Please Seagull, you HAVE to hit the Alert button. We are getting around 9 thousand posts A DAY and we have 5 moderators. There is no way for us to "see" what posters are doing.
This is the first time I have had a chance to be on this thread. When I read the first couple of pages I thought it looked like all was well so I skipped around and found your post.
If you don't hit the Alert we can't stop it.
Thanks,
Tricia
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