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seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:04 PM
I've been surprised by the way it has quickly become almost impossible to say on any forum that you still think Caylee may be alive and/or that Casey may be innocent. Also, I've been surprised at the way the catch phrase "pathological liar" and "narcissistic personality" has been used so widely on TV in describing Casey, without any medical or psychiatric testing having been performed, just ascribing these terms to Casey and it becoming accepted as fact. I think there could be lots of possible reasons for the strange lack of cooperation and the strange misinformation provided by Casey to authorities. I think she could be in shock, could have had a trauma, could be recovering from drug usage or could even have been drugged, could have a seizure disorder or dissociative disorder, or it could be an innocent but out of control compulsive lying problem, or it could be for some other reason and none of these. But does not have necessarily to be "pathological lying/narcissistic personality". If it were that, wouldn't she make the lies make more sense, if you know what I mean?

So that's what I'm starting this thread for, for anyone who is still considering all the possibilities in this case equally.
So far, there's just the sniff tests and hair linked to Caylee, right? And the stain (in the trunk), still unidentified basically? But hair can get in a trunk on any blanket, toy, jacket, brush or whatever, that gets put there. And then it decomposes. Just ordinary hair that got there innocently, it decomposes just like a body would or any organic matter would. The same with various biological stains.

As far as the dog sniff tests go, I love dogs, and I know they have amazing senses, including their sense of smell, and they are very perceptive animals. I would love to believe like the media and popular culture that dogs are some kind of litmus test to tell us where a human corpse has been. But the two dogs signalled somewhat differently in the grandparents' backyard, right? So, what does that say in itself? They both were interested in the backseat area and trunk of the car. But what if Caylee and Casey had slept or lived in the car at some point in between friends returning from out of town, what if they'd spent a lot of time eating and being in the car, including diapers or whatever, sleeping in the car, hair brushing in the car, food in the car, whatever. What if dog sniff tests are really not that scientific, despite dogs' many wonderful qualities and the fact they do have pretty decent noses? Is any "sniff test" really that reliable? I'm not sure that all experts would say they are (whether dog or machine "sniff test".) I'd love to hear if anyone here knows, I know a lot of you all do know a lot!

For one thing, I know that dogs find the scent of different living people to be extremely different, we don't all smell the same to them at all, that's precisely how dogs can "track" where an individual has gone. We don't have one "human" smell. So how would the smell of humans be all one category when decomposing, you know? This so-called "human decomposition" smell that they love to keep repeating in the media. To dogs' noses, wouldn't we be more likely to smell different? Would body fluids or hair innocently deposited in a car which are then decomposing in the heat for some time smell different to a dog than a dead body having been there? To the human nose, I understand that decomposition (whether animal or human) has more or less the same characteristic scent, doesn't it? I know I've smelled it in the case of animals and it's an unmistakable smell, and I can't say that it was different between a squirrel or bird or raccoon or hermit crab. I've even known of an animal with a kind of gangrenous injury that had quite a bit of the decomposition smell even though it was alive. Could a dog's nose be misled by rotting pizza or other food deposits or other innocent decomposing stains or substances, decomposing sausage or chicken or cheese or whatever else might be on a pizza (all of those decomposing animal proteins)? Where is the actual proof of the scientific reliability and validity of cadaver dogs. Is it admissable as evidence in other developed countries?

In short, I'm still hopeful this little girl may be alive. I know her mother may or may not be troubled, immature, or disorganized (or it may only look that way knowing what we know so far), but I have not seen any motive for her mother to harm her, she didn't have a history of doing so and if Casey had actually wanted free of the child she could easily have left the child with her parents and just taken off. In the police interviews, all of the friends/acquaintances interviewed, even the one she'd stolen money from, said they could not imagine Casey harming Caylee and that her behavior toward Caylee had always been affectionate and normal and that there had always been a normal degree of caring about the child.

While I consider it possible that the child has died, I think there are still lots of possibilities in this case, and I think the authorities should be investigating everyone in Casey's social and on-off work circle, from anyone at the club to friends or acquaintances she stayed with and friends of those friends, because someone may hold the key to finding Caylee. I've followed a good part of the research done by websleuthers here on some of these avenues, and it's always so interesting and impressive. Anyway, here's a fence-sitter's thread, the one for the people who think the authorities should still be investigating EVERY avenue.... I didn't see another fence-sitters thread or one along these lines, if there is, please clue me in and I'll remove this one! Everyone's input very welcome here.

Betty Boop
08-31-2008, 11:18 PM
My husband would probably join this thread if he did message boards. We have some interesting arguments . . . um . . . I mean discussions . . . about this case.

I think it's good to have all views put forth. Thanks for starting this thread.
:)

Evan's Mom
08-31-2008, 11:19 PM
I would love to be convinced again.

seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:26 PM
Thank you Evan's Mom :)

LI_Mom
08-31-2008, 11:26 PM
But hair can get in a trunk on any blanket, toy, jacket, brush or whatever, that gets put there. And then it decomposes. Just ordinary hair that got there innocently, it decomposes just like a body would or any organic matter would. The same with various biological stains.


For the sake of accuracy....

Dr. Michael Baden explained that after death, a "band" forms around the hair that is not found in the hair of a living person. This is how they can tell if a hair came from a living or deceased person. The hair found in the trunk was tested & did have that 'band' present.

AutomaticAuttie
08-31-2008, 11:32 PM
Anjali Swienton of scilawforensics talks about false positive results on Nancy Grace which Dr. Baden does not bring up.

seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:32 PM
I really hope Caylee is alive and that she will be found very soon. I haven't abandoned the "left Caylee with Zani the nanny" possibility, to be honest. Despite Casey being unable to give a coherent story regarding where the nanny lived, etc, maybe she really did leave Caylee with this person. Maybe Casey was trying to lead investigators in the right direction but is afraid to tell the whole truth, or is confused, for whatever unknown reason. Or maybe Casey has had someone hide the child from her parents. Who knows at this point? I honestly haven't ruled anything out completely yet.

AutomaticAuttie
08-31-2008, 11:36 PM
How can they even tell if that is Caylee's hair?

RhondaIL
08-31-2008, 11:37 PM
For one thing, I know that dogs find the scent of different living people to be extremely different, we don't all smell the same to them at all, that's precisely how dogs can "track" where an individual has gone. We don't have one "human" smell. So how would the smell of humans be all one category when decomposing, you know? This so-called "human decomposition" smell that they love to keep repeating in the media. To dogs' noses, wouldn't we be more likely to smell different? Would body fluids or hair innocently deposited in a car which are then decomposing in the heat for some time smell different to a dog than a dead body having been there? To the human nose, I understand that decomposition (whether animal or human) has more or less the same characteristic scent, doesn't it? I know I've smelled it in the case of animals and it's an unmistakable smell, and I can't say that it was different between a squirrel or bird or raccoon or hermit crab. I've even known of an animal with a kind of gangrenous injury that had quite a bit of the decomposition smell even though it was alive. Could a dog's nose be misled by rotting pizza or other food deposits or other innocent decomposing stains or substances, decomposing sausage or chicken or cheese or whatever else might be on a pizza (all of those decomposing animal proteins)? Where is the actual proof of the scientific reliability and validity of cadaver dogs. Is it admissable as evidence in other developed countries?

Human decomp does not smell like animal decomp.

Cadaver dogs would not be misled by rotting pizza, raw rotting meat or human sweat. They are trained to locate the smell of decomposing human flesh.

jmo

seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:38 PM
For the sake of accuracy....

Dr. Michael Baden explained that after death, a "band" forms around the hair that is not found in the hair of a living person. This is how they can tell if a hair came from a living or deceased person. The hair found in the trunk was tested & did have that 'band' present.

thanks for this, is this a coloration band within the shaft of the hair or something to do with the follicle around the root of the hair? Was this part of the leak from the University of Tennessee that did some of the forensics? thanks for any link to this information. I heard one expert on TV saying that you can't tell the difference, that hair that the person lost while alive would appear the same as hair that decomposed with the body and then became detached. But I don't know who that expert was.

If Casey is charged with murder I imagine we'll be hearing experts on both sides.

AutomaticAuttie
08-31-2008, 11:39 PM
Human decomp does not smell like animal decomp.

Cadaver dogs would not be misled by rotting pizza, raw rotting meat or human sweat. They are trained to locate the smell of decomposing human flesh.

jmo

1 dog and possible human handler error.
2 dogs in the backyard, and did they find anything back there?

RhondaIL
08-31-2008, 11:39 PM
I really hope Caylee is alive and that she will be found very soon. I haven't abandoned the "left Caylee with Zani the nanny" possibility, to be honest. Despite Casey being unable to give a coherent story regarding where the nanny lived, etc, maybe she really did leave Caylee with this person. Maybe Casey was trying to lead investigators in the right direction but is afraid to tell the whole truth, or is confused, for whatever unknown reason. Or maybe Casey has had someone hide the child from her parents. Who knows at this point? I honestly haven't ruled anything out completely yet.

I am sorry Seagull, didn't you see today's headlines?

Investigator: Tests Indicate Body In Trunk Caylee
http://www.wesh.com/news/17353349/detail.html

seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:41 PM
How can they even tell if that is Caylee's hair?

I still haven't heard for sure if they can, if it was whole hair or very degraded hair. If it was very degraded then they have to use the mitochondrial DNA that they can take from smaller bits, instead of long sequences right? But the mitochondrial DNA will be identical to her mother's DNA?

When I hear of any body evidence in the car so far, it just sounds like it could be anybody's body basically, if a deceased body at all.

(Hopefully no one's.)

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:42 PM
Human decomp does not smell like animal decomp.

Cadaver dogs would not be misled by rotting pizza, raw rotting meat or human sweat. They are trained to locate the smell of decomposing human flesh.

jmo

As someone who has smelled a rotting corpse, I can verify that it smells NOTHING like animal, food, or plant decomp. AT ALL.

LiveLoveLaughLiza
08-31-2008, 11:43 PM
How can they even tell if that is Caylee's hair?


Through DNA testing.

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:44 PM
I still haven't heard for sure if they can, if it was whole hair or very degraded hair. If it was very degraded then they have to use the mitochondrial DNA that they can take from smaller bits, instead of long sequences right? But the mitochondrial DNA will be identical to her mother's DNA?

When I hear of any body evidence in the car so far, it just sounds like it could be anybody's body basically, if a deceased body at all.

(Hopefully no one's.)

The FBI states that the DNA is Caylee's. I don't really see what this post is about, since we do not have any information on exactly what the FBI tested. You are speculating about scientific tests being done on evidence that you have no information about. There has been no reporting of exactly what was tested.

krimekat
08-31-2008, 11:45 PM
Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed . . . [t]here was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

UPDATED: 8:50 pm EDT August 31, 2008: http://www.wftv.com/news/17340180/detail.html

seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:45 PM
Hi yes, I had seen that. So the machine sniff test also thinks something was decomposing in the trunk, and there was decomposing hair in the trunk. But one expert on (I think) Headline News said that there's no difference between hair that was in the trunk innocently and proceeded to decompose in the trunk, or hair from a corpse. I imagine we'll be seeing lots of discussion by experts on both sides on this if this ever goes to court.

jbar
08-31-2008, 11:46 PM
I have wondered this through out this case... so animal decomp smells different than human decomp? We had a rat/mouse die under our deck and omg the smell was horrible. Very particular, and disgusting. Kind of "beachy" or fishy smell - but not. Is human decomp different?

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:46 PM
thanks for this, is this a coloration band within the shaft of the hair or something to do with the follicle around the root of the hair? Was this part of the leak from the University of Tennessee that did some of the forensics? thanks for any link to this information. I heard one expert on TV saying that you can't tell the difference, that hair that the person lost while alive would appear the same as hair that decomposed with the body and then became detached. But I don't know who that expert was.

If Casey is charged with murder I imagine we'll be hearing experts on both sides.

Nope. The FBI conducted the DNA testing. Body Farm did air test.

seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:47 PM
As someone who has smelled a rotting corpse, I can verify that it smells NOTHING like animal, food, or plant decomp. AT ALL.

That's interesting, since other species seem to smell the same more or less as far as I know. Do you think it was maybe just because of the size of the body?

jbar
08-31-2008, 11:47 PM
I imagine we'll be seeing lots of discussion by experts on both sides on this if this ever goes to court.

Science doesn't lie. You can't fake science. I don't believe in a lot of things, but I do believe in science.

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:47 PM
I have wondered this through out this case... so animal decomp smells different than human decomp? We had a rat/mouse die under our deck and omg the smell was horrible. Very particular, and disgusting. Kind of "beachy" or fishy smell - but not. Is human decomp different?

It is COMPLETELY different. I have never in my life smelled anything like it--nothing like an animal at all. Very, very distinctive. A woman committed suicide in a next door apt. and the body sat there for a few days. My aunt's apt. was completely awash in the odor.

kathyn2
08-31-2008, 11:47 PM
Seagull, I am a scientific girl myself. You show me dna from hair with a ring that indicates a deceased person and I believe the person is dead. dna doesn't lie. Tonite LE is saying dna says it's caylee's hair and it is from a deceased Caylee. I wish it was different but my intelligence and scientific mind say it isn't so. DNA isn't hocus pocus to me.

AutomaticAuttie
08-31-2008, 11:47 PM
Through DNA testing.

Yes, I know that. What type of testing nuclear or mtDNA testing.

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:48 PM
That's interesting, since other species seem to smell the same more or less as far as I know. Do you think it was maybe just because of the size of the body?

Nope.

krimekat
08-31-2008, 11:49 PM
FBI test results show hair and a stain in the trunk of Casey Anthony's car belong to her daughter, 3-year-old Caylee Anthony.

http://www.wftv.com/news/17315205/detail.html

seagull65
08-31-2008, 11:50 PM
There has been no reporting of exactly what was tested.

Right, that's my point. But then the media has reported over and over that whatever it is, it means Caylee was dead in the trunk. I haven't seen any evidence reported yet that takes me to that conclusion. So I'm still hopeful that she is alive. I mean, I would expect for some DNA of Caylee's to be found in the trunk in a normal situation. It will be interesting to see what tests were performed and how conclusive they really are.

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:50 PM
Also, I've been surprised at the way the catch phrase "pathological liar" has been used so widely on TV in describing Casey, without any medical or psychiatric testing having been performed, just ascribing these terms to Casey and it becoming accepted as fact.

I think there could be lots of possible reasons for the strange lack of cooperation and the strange misinformation provided by Casey to authorities. I think she could be in shock, could have had a trauma, could be recovering from drug usage or could even have been drugged, could have a seizure disorder or dissociative disorder, or it could be an innocent but out of control compulsive lying problem, or it could be for some other reason and none of these. But does not have necessarily to be "pathological lying/narcissistic personality". If it were that, wouldn't she make the lies make more sense, if you know what I mean?

So that's what I'm starting this thread for, for anyone who is still considering all the possibilities in this case equally.
So far, there's just the sniff tests and hair linked to Caylee, right? And the stain (in the trunk), still unidentified basically? But hair can get in a trunk on any blanket, toy, jacket, brush or whatever, that gets put there. And then it decomposes. Just ordinary hair that got there innocently, it decomposes just like a body would or any organic matter would. The same with various biological stains.

As far as the dog sniff tests go, I love dogs, and I know they have amazing senses, including their sense of smell, and they are very perceptive animals. I would love to believe like the media and popular culture that dogs are some kind of litmus test to tell us where a human corpse has been. But the two dogs signalled somewhat differently in the grandparents' backyard, right? So, what does that say in itself? They both were interested in the backseat area and trunk of the car. But what if Caylee and Casey had slept or lived in the car at some point in between friends returning from out of town, what if they'd spent a lot of time eating and being in the car, including diapers or whatever, sleeping in the car, hair brushing in the car, food in the car, whatever. What if dog sniff tests are really not that scientific, despite dogs' many wonderful qualities and the fact they do have pretty decent noses? Is any "sniff test" really that reliable? I'm not sure that all experts would say they are (whether dog or machine "sniff test".) I'd love to hear if anyone here knows, I know a lot of you all do know a lot!

For one thing, I know that dogs find the scent of different living people to be extremely different, we don't all smell the same to them at all, that's precisely how dogs can "track" where an individual has gone. We don't have one "human" smell. So how would the smell of humans be all one category when decomposing, you know? This so-called "human decomposition" smell that they love to keep repeating in the media. To dogs' noses, wouldn't we be more likely to smell different? Would body fluids or hair innocently deposited in a car which are then decomposing in the heat for some time smell different to a dog than a dead body having been there? To the human nose, I understand that decomposition (whether animal or human) has more or less the same characteristic scent, doesn't it? I know I've smelled it in the case of animals and it's an unmistakable smell, and I can't say that it was different between a squirrel or bird or raccoon or hermit crab. I've even known of an animal with a kind of gangrenous injury that had quite a bit of the decomposition smell even though it was alive. Could a dog's nose be misled by rotting pizza or other food deposits or other innocent decomposing stains or substances, decomposing sausage or chicken or cheese or whatever else might be on a pizza (all of those decomposing animal proteins)? Where is the actual proof of the scientific reliability and validity of cadaver dogs. Is it admissable as evidence in other developed countries?

In short, I'm still hopeful this little girl may be alive. I know her mother may or may not be troubled, immature, or disorganized (or it may only look that way knowing what we know so far), but I have not seen any motive for her mother to harm her, she didn't have a history of doing so and if Casey had actually wanted free of the child she could easily have left the child with her parents and just taken off. In the police interviews, all of the friends/acquaintances interviewed, even the one she'd stolen money from, said they could not imagine Casey harming Caylee and that her behavior toward Caylee had always been affectionate and normal and that there had always been a normal degree of caring about the child.

While I consider it possible that the child has died, I think there are still lots of possibilities in this case, and I think the authorities should be investigating everyone in Casey's social and on-off work circle, from anyone at the club to friends or acquaintances she stayed with and friends of those friends, because someone may hold the key to finding Caylee. I've followed a good part of the research done by websleuthers here on some of these avenues, and it's always so interesting and impressive. Anyway, here's a fence-sitter's thread, the one for the people who think the authorities should still be investigating EVERY avenue.... I didn't see another fence-sitters thread or one along these lines, if there is, please clue me in and I'll remove this one! Everyone's input very welcome here.


Um...could you tell us what an "innocent lying problem" would be? A pathalogical liar is not really a DSM-IV classification, it describes a person who lies about everything, especially things they don't "need to" (like to protect themselves from consequences).

RhondaIL
08-31-2008, 11:51 PM
I have wondered this through out this case... so animal decomp smells different than human decomp? We had a rat/mouse die under our deck and omg the smell was horrible. Very particular, and disgusting. Kind of "beachy" or fishy smell - but not. Is human decomp different?

The dead rat/mouse under your deck does not even come close.

MommaShark
08-31-2008, 11:52 PM
Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed . . . [t]here was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

UPDATED: 8:50 pm EDT August 31, 2008: http://www.wftv.com/news/17340180/detail.html

I'll continue to sit on the fence til I hear it from his mouth himself. Not trusting reporters on this one. I want to believe there is still a chance.

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:53 PM
Right, that's my point. But then the media has reported over and over that whatever it is, it means Caylee was dead in the trunk. I haven't seen any evidence reported yet that takes me to that conclusion. So I'm still hopeful that she is alive. I mean, I would expect for some DNA of Caylee's to be found in the trunk in a normal situation. It will be interesting to see what tests were performed and how conclusive they really are.

I'm just curious why in the world you think that A. The FBI is not an accurate source for information and B. It is so difficult to determine rather basic scientific information such as the difference in dead vs. live human tissue, and DNA identification?

jbar
08-31-2008, 11:53 PM
Whose mouth? Like do you mean on video? You think a reporter would misquote/lie about what LE said or did not say when the nation is watching?

kathyn2
08-31-2008, 11:53 PM
It's called DNA. Every single person's DNA is different. The accuracy of DNA testis is like 99.99999% The hair was tested for DNA and came back as Caylee's. Not only as Caylee's but a dead Caylee.

However, to truly judge someone guilty I would have to hear all the evidence in a court of law. At this point we are all speculating but from the dna of a dead caylee, a corpse in the trunk, casey never coming forth with info her daughter was missing ever, everything being a lie out of her mouth, I would say she killed her daughter. Either thru extreme neglect or on purpose. But to actually judge a case I would have to hear the whole case in a court of law.


How can they even tell if that is Caylee's hair?

AutomaticAuttie
08-31-2008, 11:54 PM
I'll continue to sit on the fence til I hear it from his mouth himself. Not trusting reporters on this one. I want to believe there is still a chance.

I am with you!

MommaShark
08-31-2008, 11:54 PM
I'm just curious why in the world you think that A. The FBI is not an accurate source for information and B. It is so difficult to determine rather basic scientific information such as the difference in dead vs. live human tissue, and DNA identification?

I think she is saying exactly what I say. Where is the briefing?? Why have we not been told. So why believe it until we hear it from the pd themself. I'm with you Seagul!

jbar
08-31-2008, 11:55 PM
However, to truly judge someone guilty I would have to hear all the evidence in a court of law.


Agreed. Caylee is dead, that is proven. Who killed her is still an unknown quantity.

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:55 PM
I think she is saying exactly what I say. Where is the briefing?? Why have we not been told. So why believe it until we hear it from the pd themself. I'm with you Seagul!

OCSO made the statement.

MommaShark
08-31-2008, 11:56 PM
I am with you!

OMG I'm not alone. I have been lurking today because I didn't want to face the mob. Thankyou for letting me know I am not crazy.

jbar
08-31-2008, 11:56 PM
So why believe it until we hear it from the pd themself.

A direct quote from a lead investigator on the case, is hearing it from the PD themselves. This is not a leak or unnamed source "close to the case".

MommaShark
08-31-2008, 11:56 PM
OCSO made the statement.

Where's the statement. Did you hear it?

EntreNous
08-31-2008, 11:57 PM
Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:. I posted this on another thread but now I see I should have posted it here. Sorry for that.

Each strand of human hair is made of three layers, the medulla,(the innermost "core"), the cortex, (the middle layer) and the cuticle (the outer layer). This outer layer looks like fish scales or feathers on a bird.

The hair of a living child would have a cuticle layer that lays down very, very smoothly. It's not been bleached or dyed and that very smooth cuticle is part of what gives a child's hair that very silky, shiny appearance.
The middle or cortex layer is a taupe/tan color. Even if the hair is pulled or cut off a living person and is no longer attached, it basically maintains its original form unless it is exposed to chemicals.

The hair that comes off a corpse has a roughed up cuticle. Not because it is detached but because his has been exposed to the decomposition chemicals that a dead body creates. This takes place in a corpse when the body starts to decompose, it breaks the chemical bonds in the hair. The cuticle layer will actually react to the decomposition fluid of the body and curl or "ruffle" up. Another thing that happens is that black rings will start to form in the cortex layer of the hair shaft which also can be easily detected under a microscope.

I know this because I'm a hairstylist and we actually had to study this when I was in school. We worked on this project for a few weeks. This was something that really stuck with me.

I can't believe I actually got to finally use that to help someone understand forensic evidence.

There is a lot more to it than that with hydrogen bonds and sulfur bonds but that's how it happens in basic terms. Hair doesn't just decompose like one would think in those terms. In order for it to show proof that it came from a cadaver it has to have been exposed to the body's decomposition chemicals, in other words it has to have been attached to the body's hair follicle at the time of death.

Think of it like dyed daisies. A shasta daisy doesn't grow blue but if you stick it in a glass of blue dyed water the daisy will absorb the blue dye and the petals, once white, will turn blue. Same basic principle.

Hope that helps.

krimekat
08-31-2008, 11:58 PM
I think she is saying exactly what I say. Where is the briefing?? Why have we not been told. So why believe it until we hear it from the pd themself. I'm with you Seagul!

LE does not have to tell us anything . . .

librarian_mama
08-31-2008, 11:58 PM
Where's the statement. Did you hear it?

Today Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed there was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

krimekat
08-31-2008, 11:59 PM
Where's the statement. Did you hear it?

Please read this link . . . http://www.wftv.com/news/17340180/detail.html

Today Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed . . . [t]here was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:00 AM
Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:. I posted this on another thread but now I see I should have posted it here. Sorry for that.

Each strand of human hair is made of three layers, the medulla,(the innermost "core"), the cortex, (the middle layer) and the cuticle (the outer layer). This outer layer looks like fish scales or feathers on a bird.

The hair of a living child would have a cuticle layer that lays down very, very smoothly. It's not been bleached or dyed and that very smooth cuticle is part of what gives a child's hair that very silky, shiny appearance.
The middle or cortex layer is a taupe/tan color. Even if the hair is pulled or cut off a living person and is no longer attached, it basically maintains its original form unless it is exposed to chemicals.

The hair that comes off a corpse has a roughed up cuticle. Not because it is detached but because his has been exposed to the decomposition chemicals that a dead body creates. This takes place in a corpse when the body starts to decompose, it breaks the chemical bonds in the hair. The cuticle layer will actually react to the decomposition fluid of the body and curl or "ruffle" up. Another thing that happens is that black rings will start to form in the cortex layer of the hair shaft which also can be easily detected under a microscope.

I know this because I'm a hairstylist and we actually had to study this when I was in school. We worked on this project for a few weeks. This was something that really stuck with me.

I can't believe I actually got to finally use that to help someone understand forensic evidence.

Thanks for the info. Very informative. We need more of that from the detectives in this case. None the less call me stupid, I still prefer to hold out hope until I can no longer.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:00 AM
Um...could you tell us what an "innocent lying problem" would be? A pathalogical liar is not really a DSM-IV classification, it describes a person who lies about everything, especially things they don't "need to" (like to protect themselves from consequences).

Usually "pathological lying" refers to calculated lying for a specific purpose. "Compulsive lying" often refers to lying for no purpose, in an uncontrolled way. For example, telling lies that will be found out easily. Some compulsive liars believe their own lies while they are telling them, (maybe kind of lost in the fantasy world they are creating), but afterward when they realize what they've said, they get into an ongoing situation of having to lie more and more to cover previous lies. They say compulsive liars may lie due to growing up with a constant fear of punishment, or because they grew up with a parent who had the same problem. Compulsive liars feel safer and more comfortable when they are lying than when they are telling the truth.
Pathological lying usually refers to purposeful lying, for self-serving purposes, and often with a disregard for the rights or well-being of others.

jbar
09-01-2008, 12:01 AM
Someone posted this on the "Osco confirms Caylee DNA" thread

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242005-145140/unrestricted/Collier_thesis.pdf

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:01 AM
Please read this link . . . http://www.wftv.com/news/17340180/detail.html

Today Sgt. John Allen with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department confirmed . . . [t]here was a dead body in the trunk of Casey Anthony’s car, and that body was Caylee.

I have read this. But I still did not hear it for myself. Nothing in this case has been open and shut. Not letting my gaurd down yet. Sorry guys.

RhondaIL
09-01-2008, 12:02 AM
Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:. I posted this on another thread but now I see I should have posted it here. Sorry for that.

Each strand of human hair is made of three layers, the medulla,(the innermost "core"), the cortex, (the middle layer) and the cuticle (the outer layer). This outer layer looks like fish scales or feathers on a bird.

The hair of a living child would have a cuticle layer that lays down very, very smoothly. It's not been bleached or dyed and that very smooth cuticle is part of what gives a child's hair that very silky, shiny appearance.
The middle or cortex layer is a taupe/tan color. Even if the hair is pulled or cut off a living person and is no longer attached, it basically maintains its original form unless it is exposed to chemicals.

The hair that comes off a corpse has a roughed up cuticle. Not because it is detached but because his has been exposed to the decomposition chemicals that a dead body creates. This takes place in a corpse when the body starts to decompose, it breaks the chemical bonds in the hair. The cuticle layer will actually react to the decomposition fluid of the body and curl or "ruffle" up. Another thing that happens is that black rings will start to form in the cortex layer of the hair shaft which also can be easily detected under a microscope.

I know this because I'm a hairstylist and we actually had to study this when I was in school. We worked on this project for a few weeks. This was something that really stuck with me.

I can't believe I actually got to finally use that to help someone understand forensic evidence.

Welcome to the Caylee forum and some of our threads overlap on topic.

Thank you for explanation.

Chanler
09-01-2008, 12:05 AM
I'm just curious why in the world you think that A. The FBI is not an accurate source for information and B. It is so difficult to determine rather basic scientific information such as the difference in dead vs. live human tissue, and DNA identification?

Hi Librarian Mama; your caution is laudible: Guilt is determined by juries, not by crime sleuth posters. And, as you suggest, the FBI has been wrong more than once before. All that said, the strong lean seems to be towards death: The combination of the initial DNA report; the multiple reports of decomposition; the absence of Caylee sightings or communication; Casey's suspicous actions, conflicting statements, and lack of cooperation in the official investigation and search for her daughter.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:05 AM
The dead rat/mouse under your deck does not even come close.

A vietnam veteran friend of mine once told me that corpses in battlefields were often not too smelly, that the smell mainly depended on what or how much matter was in the bowel, basically, or whether the bowel was pierced. Just his opinion though.

Anais
09-01-2008, 12:05 AM
For the sake of accuracy....

Dr. Michael Baden explained that after death, a "band" forms around the hair that is not found in the hair of a living person. This is how they can tell if a hair came from a living or deceased person. The hair found in the trunk was tested & did have that 'band' present.

That's one excellent point, and there are too many others to list! IMO no psychological test or shrink needs to tell me that Casey is a pathological liar- SHE IS ONE!!! I don't know is she a narcissitic personality disorder but she's sure exhibits so many classic symptoms of this disorder!!!

Also do you realize that the only time-ONLY TIME this woman has shown any emotion in relation to this case etc. is when she cried for HERSELF AS SHE WAS SENT TO JAIL without bail. Very disturbing and quite sad. It sends a very clear and strong message to me as a mother of three boys.

I once lost my 3 year old son in a mall and I cannot tell you the hyseterical panic that I experienced.(thankfully for only 28 minutes.) It was the longest time in my life. I can understand you fence sitters for whatever your reasons. But I am absolutely certain with utter sadness that poor Caylee is past us now in heaven.

But to say that Casey isn't what and who she is, nope not going there. She knows where that poor child is yet refuses to disclose the info. Why do you think that is???!!! Because the child is no longer with us and she is continuing to fabricate the most ridiculous stories of all time. And I though Susan Smith was bad. At least she came clean!!!

*Kat*
09-01-2008, 12:07 AM
I am with you!

Me too! I know & see what everything points too but I'll be darned if I am losing hope. My fragile heart cannot allow me too. I am extremely jaded after having a child. I cannot fathom what happened so I choose not too. Besides, there is just so much info, parties involved, it leaves a glimmer of hope IMO. Please don't flame my gullibility.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 12:07 AM
Usually "pathological lying" refers to calculated lying for a specific purpose. "Compulsive lying" often refers to lying for no purpose, in an uncontrolled way. For example, telling lies that will be found out easily. Some compulsive liars believe their own lies while they are telling them, (maybe kind of lost in the fantasy world they are creating), but afterward when they realize what they've said, they get into an ongoing situation of having to lie more and more to cover previous lies. They say compulsive liars may lie due to growing up with a constant fear of punishment, or because they grew up with a parent who had the same problem. Compulsive liars feel safer and more comfortable when they are lying than when they are telling the truth.
Pathological lying usually refers to purposeful lying, for self-serving purposes, and often with a disregard for the rights or well-being of others.

So Casey was lying for no purpose, getting lost in a fantasy world, and just continued to lie because she was afraid she would get in trouble for lying?

You know, we're talking about the life of a little girl here. This wasn't Casey in the principal's office getting questioned about writing on a wall--these were detectives asking her where her precious baby was so that they could bring this angel home.

Your own definition of a pathological liar should have a picture of Casey beside it.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:08 AM
Thanks for the info. Very informative. We need more of that from the detectives in this case. None the less call me stupid, I still prefer to hold out hope until I can no longer.

Me, too. And I heard one scientist on Headline News say that hair decomposing on its own or still attached to a body after death both take on these decomposition characteristics. So I'm waiting to see what evidence will finally be presented, etc, and how experts will distinguish the two.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 12:09 AM
A vietnam veteran friend of mine once told me that corpses in battlefields were often not too smelly, that the smell mainly depended on what or how much matter was in the bowel, basically, or whether the bowel was pierced. Just his opinion though.

????? Yeah, I guess a corpse smells better in a field than it does closed in a trunk.

LiveLoveLaughLiza
09-01-2008, 12:09 AM
A vietnam veteran friend of mine once told me that corpses in battlefields were often not too smelly, that the smell mainly depended on what or how much matter was in the bowel, basically, or whether the bowel was pierced. Just his opinion though.

Then he never happened upon a body that had started to decompose. My father is a vetern of Vietnam and can to this day smell the rotting and decomposing humans. As others have stated....it is a smell you will never forget.....as much as you want to.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:10 AM
Me too! I know & see what everything points too but I'll be darned if I am losing hope. My fragile heart cannot allow me too. I am extremely jaded after having a child. I cannot fathom what happened so I choose not too. Besides, there is just so much info, parties involved, it leaves a glimmer of hope IMO. Please don't flame my gullibility.

The first time I heard about this case was when my 3 yr old daughter looked at the TV and said, "Mommy is that me?". I looked up and there was Caylee. Have been hooked since. I just don't want to believe until I have to.

magiemay
09-01-2008, 12:11 AM
Usually "pathological lying" refers to calculated lying for a specific purpose. "Compulsive lying" often refers to lying for no purpose, in an uncontrolled way. For example, telling lies that will be found out easily. Some compulsive liars believe their own lies while they are telling them, (maybe kind of lost in the fantasy world they are creating), but afterward when they realize what they've said, they get into an ongoing situation of having to lie more and more to cover previous lies. They say compulsive liars may lie due to growing up with a constant fear of punishment, or because they grew up with a parent who had the same problem. Compulsive liars feel safer and more comfortable when they are lying than when they are telling the truth.
Pathological lying usually refers to purposeful lying, for self-serving purposes, and often with a disregard for the rights or well-being of others.
Seagull Are you saying CA did not lie for her own benefit? purposful, self serving and with a disregard for the rights or well being of others? please explain as this is over my head!!!

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:11 AM
Right, I still don't have enough facts to know whether she's a pathological liar or if it's an innocent compulsive lying problem, or whether Casey is alive or not. So I will remain hopeful that she is alive unless the evidence becomes irrefutable. Of course even if the evidence finally proves that Caylee is no longer living (hopefully this is not the case), then there would be the next hurdle of whether Casey had anything to do with her death.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 12:12 AM
The first time I heard about this case was when my 3 yr old daughter looked at the TV and said, "Mommy is that me?". I looked up and there was Caylee. Have been hooked since. I just don't want to believe until I have to.

I also have a 3 year old daughter (that's her in my avatar smiling with her 3rd birthday cake in her mouth). That's why I cannot fathom calling 911 the SECOND I couldn't find her. I find the actions of the mother and family absolutely mind-boggling. They were never interested in finding this child.

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 12:13 AM
Right, I still don't have enough facts to know whether she's a pathological liar or if it's an innocent compulsive lying problem, or whether Casey is alive or not. So I will remain hopeful that she is alive unless the evidence becomes irrefutable. Of course even if the evidence finally proves that Caylee is no longer living (hopefully this is not the case), then there would be the next hurdle of whether Casey had anything to do with her death.

Well said.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:13 AM
Right, I still don't have enough facts to know whether she's a pathological liar or if it's an innocent compulsive lying problem, or whether Casey is alive or not. So I will remain hopeful that she is alive unless the evidence becomes irrefutable. Of course even if the evidence finally proves that Caylee is no longer living (hopefully this is not the case), then there would be the next hurdle of whether Casey had anything to do with her death.

Crap I'm in trouble because when we get to that hurdle, I will probably sit on this uncomfy fence again. :eek:

jd_martin
09-01-2008, 12:13 AM
Hi yes, I had seen that. So the machine sniff test also thinks something was decomposing in the trunk, and there was decomposing hair in the trunk. But one expert on (I think) Headline News said that there's no difference between hair that was in the trunk innocently and proceeded to decompose in the trunk, or hair from a corpse. I imagine we'll be seeing lots of discussion by experts on both sides on this if this ever goes to court.


Most of the so called experts on CNN/FOX are here to entertain people. Take one side while the other "Expert" Takes the other. I have Did research and their is quite a difference in a hair from a decomposed body and say one that i pull out of my head right now. This isnt a game to LE. If it was some kind of "junk science" do you think they would use it? judge allow it? And hair doesnt fall out of peoples head and decompose and produce chemicals that dogs hit on or body farm air tests test positive for decomposition.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 12:15 AM
Right, I still don't have enough facts to know whether she's a pathological liar or if it's an innocent compulsive lying problem, or whether Casey is alive or not. So I will remain hopeful that she is alive unless the evidence becomes irrefutable. Of course even if the evidence finally proves that Caylee is no longer living (hopefully this is not the case), then there would be the next hurdle of whether Casey had anything to do with her death.

What difference does it make to you which specific lying problem gave the police NO HELP IN FINDING HER DAUGHTER???????????? Have you read any of the 400 page docs? Her written statement to LE was all lies. There was no way to find Caylee with any of the information she gave LE. They proved she lied, and she was arrested for lying.

LiveLoveLaughLiza
09-01-2008, 12:15 AM
Librarian Mama sent you a pm.

jbar
09-01-2008, 12:15 AM
I second what Librarian Mama says. We were at a waterpark recently and I couldn't find my 8 year old for a few minutes. It was under 10 but felt like 30. I knew he was likely on a water slide, but I couldn't find him. I was ready to contact the park, authorities, etc. The actions of everyone in this family does not indicate normal functioning, and when you pair that with the now present scientific evidence, it's plain to see.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
Crap I'm in trouble because when we get to that hurdle, I will probably sit on this uncomfy fence again. :eek:

I will provide the cyber-pillow

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
Of course we don't know all the facts yet, but it looks like she probably stole the money from the friend, we don't know why yet. There are also all the strange statements to police. To me it looks more like a nervous breakdown, or confusion, trauma, shock....hard to tell. Like I say, I think if she were a pathological liar trying to deceive police she would make up stories that sound plausible. Not small lies that don't make sense and which are disproved very quickly. I have no idea what's going on with Casey, I hope they've had her in for medical tests, especially if that seizure did happen (was it earlier this year or in 2007?) But anyway, having had a breakdown or something and needing to pay back money to this friend, or being a murderer, there's a pretty great distance between the two. Even though stealing is serious, of course.

Tate
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
It is COMPLETELY different. I have never in my life smelled anything like it--nothing like an animal at all. Very, very distinctive. A woman committed suicide in a next door apt. and the body sat there for a few days. My aunt's apt. was completely awash in the odor.

Ewwwww... I just threw up a little in my mouth.

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
Do you still believe in Santa Claus too? I could discount the body farm saying they was a dead body in the car. I could discount the FBI saying there was DNA evidence saying Caylee's hair was in the trunk and it came from a dead person. I could discount the mother not telling anyone her daughter was missing for 31 days. I could discount the dogs hitting on the trunk. I could discount the mother saying a person that cannot be found to have existed took her baby. I could discount that her saying she told 2 other people about her missing in those 31 days even if one denies it and the other doesn't exist. I could discount a lot of things. BUT IN THE SAME CASE? I want her to be alive, too. I also want the tooth fairy to come and leave me money when I put my tooth under the pillow, but that isn't going to happen. Are the Anthony's posting here?

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 12:17 AM
[QUOTE=jd_martin;2596297]Most of the so called experts on CNN/FOX are here to entertain people. Take one side while the other "Expert" Takes the other. I have Did research and their is quite a difference in a hair from a decomposed body and say one that i pull out of my head right now. This isnt a game to LE. If it was some kind of "junk science" do you think they would use it? judge allow it? And hair doesnt fall out of peoples head and decompose and produce chemicals that dogs hit on or body farm air tests test positive for decomposition.[/Q


What did you find out in your research?

magiemay
09-01-2008, 12:17 AM
Right, I still don't have enough facts to know whether she's a pathological liar or if it's an innocent compulsive lying problem, or whether Casey is alive or not. So I will remain hopeful that she is alive unless the evidence becomes irrefutable. Of course even if the evidence finally proves that Caylee is no longer living (hopefully this is not the case), then there would be the next hurdle of whether Casey had anything to do with her death.
ok let me ask you just who is responsible I mean on CA won't speak can you explain that? would you not talk I know I would.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:17 AM
TY for the pillow. lol

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:19 AM
Do you still believe in Santa Claus too? I could discount the body farm saying they was a dead body in the car. I could discount the FBI saying there was DNA evidence saying Caylee's hair was in the trunk and it came from a dead person. I could discount the mother not telling anyone her daughter was missing for 31 days. I could discount the dogs hitting on the trunk. I could discount the mother saying a person that cannot be found to have existed took her baby. I could discount that her saying she told 2 other people about her missing in those 31 days even if one denies it and the other doesn't exist. I could discount a lot of things. BUT IN THE SAME CASE? I want her to be alive, too. I also want the tooth fairy to come and leave me money when I put my tooth under the pillow, but that isn't going to happen. Are the Anthony's posting here?

I personally gave up on Santa and the Tooth Fairy about 5 years ago. Only when I had to become both.:)

jbar
09-01-2008, 12:19 AM
I have no idea what's going on with Casey,


You are right. None of us do. ANd it's for the courts to sort out. But that's also totally seperate from what's going on with CAYLEE. THAT has been proven, scientifically.

magiemay
09-01-2008, 12:21 AM
Hey look it would not have to be my child it could be yours but you can jolly well believe I would sing like bird, Why well every day that went by was a less likely event of her being found alive!!! My land I sure hope if I ever lose my mind and do something really crazy and I do say crazy I have you in my corner.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:22 AM
What difference does it make to you which specific lying problem gave the police NO HELP IN FINDING HER DAUGHTER???????????? Have you read any of the 400 page docs? Her written statement to LE was all lies. There was no way to find Caylee with any of the information she gave LE. They proved she lied, and she was arrested for lying.

Oh yes, I did read it. Her "lies" weren't coherent enough to me to even quite be lies. That, plus the thing about the seizure, plus the very bizarre and detached behavior ever since, plus now the bizarre letter to the young girl where Casey sounds so regressed it's more like she's a 12 year old herself, all of these things make me wonder whether Casey is in shock or is having some other medical or mental issue. Either that or she really is afraid of retribution if she tells who has Caylee or whatever. Of course it's possible that Caylee isn't alive and Casey knows what happened. That's only one of many possibilities at this point, though. My opinion only

jbar
09-01-2008, 12:22 AM
For those that need to hear it from OSCO's mouth directly... apparently they have gone on camera to make this statement. Please read this post...

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2596326&postcount=355

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:22 AM
You know a Seagl is no match for a vulture. The shark has your back. I'm sorry if people do not agree with my stance but unfortunately it is called an oppinion.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:23 AM
For those that need to hear it from OSCO's mouth directly... apparently they have gone on camera to make this statement. Please read this post...

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2596326&postcount=355

Once again I am waiting to hear this with my own two ears.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:24 AM
????? Yeah, I guess a corpse smells better in a field than it does closed in a trunk.

I don't imagine it would be too nice to smell either one, from a trunk in summer in Florida or in a steamy hot jungle in Vietnam. Very sad.

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 12:24 AM
For those that need to hear it from OSCO's mouth directly... apparently they have gone on camera to make this statement. Please read this post...

http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2596326&postcount=355

that link does not show any video?

jd_martin
09-01-2008, 12:25 AM
What did you find out in your research?

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242005-145140/unrestricted/Collier_thesis.pdf

This is about the same thing i found. This is a link brought over from another thread.

jbar
09-01-2008, 12:25 AM
Once again I am waiting to hear this with my own two ears.


My point is that apparently they ARE ON CAMERA. Search and you shall probably find...

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:26 AM
Hey look it would not have to be my child it could be yours but you can jolly well believe I would sing like bird, Why well every day that went by was a less likely event of her being found alive!!! My land I sure hope if I ever lose my mind and do something really crazy and I do say crazy I have you in my corner.


It would be agony, wouldn't it? I lost my little boy at a Disney resort in Orlando this May for about 15 minutes. It seemed like 15 hours. My husband and I were beside ourselves, running through the resort yelling his name. I can't even imagine what the Anthony's are going through. God bless Caylee.

magic-cat
09-01-2008, 12:26 AM
As the mother of six children, and having just had my first grandchild August 11th-2 days after Caylee's birthday, I have held on to hope against all odds that this sweet little girl would be found alive. I have followed the case and I have read the 400 pages released recently in totality and upon finishing those pages was utterly devastated for the first time in the realization that there was no way that Caylee was still with us. The lies that this woman has told are astronomical and unbelievable and completely unjustifiable.

A child, her child, is missing. She does not tell ANYONE for 31 days. When she is found out, she begins a long road of nothing but lies with no truth in between. There was no innocent lie involved in any of this. There was a little girl, 2 years old, and she was missing-so each and every lie was another step in the wrong direction away from finding Caylee.

It does not take a psychiatrist to determine that this woman is a liar. All it takes is an ability to read.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:27 AM
My point is that apparently they ARE ON CAMERA. Search and you shall probably find...

If you find it please let me know. I have searched for about 3 hours with no luck. You would think the media would be dying to break this video.

mkath59
09-01-2008, 12:28 AM
Do you still believe in Santa Claus too? I could discount the body farm saying they was a dead body in the car. I could discount the FBI saying there was DNA evidence saying Caylee's hair was in the trunk and it came from a dead person. I could discount the mother not telling anyone her daughter was missing for 31 days. I could discount the dogs hitting on the trunk. I could discount the mother saying a person that cannot be found to have existed took her baby. I could discount that her saying she told 2 other people about her missing in those 31 days even if one denies it and the other doesn't exist. I could discount a lot of things. BUT IN THE SAME CASE? I want her to be alive, too. I also want the tooth fairy to come and leave me money when I put my tooth under the pillow, but that isn't going to happen. Are the Anthony's posting here?

You said exactly what I was thinking but couldn't put in words.

I'm waiting for my knight in shining armor, too ;-)

CHICANA
09-01-2008, 12:28 AM
That's interesting, since other species seem to smell the same more or less as far as I know. Do you think it was maybe just because of the size of the body?

A person on a different site said they had smelled a dead body and that they really couldn't tell the difference between it and a dead animal.

magiemay
09-01-2008, 12:28 AM
Oh yes, I did read it. Her "lies" weren't coherent enough to me to even quite be lies. That, plus the thing about the seizure, plus the very bizarre and detached behavior ever since, plus now the bizarre letter to the young girl where Casey sounds so regressed it's more like she's a 12 year old herself, all of these things make me wonder whether Casey is in shock or is having some other medical or mental issue. Either that or she really is afraid of retribution if she tells who has Caylee or whatever. Of course it's possible that Caylee isn't alive and Casey knows what happened. That's only one of many possibilities at this point, though. My opinion only
You are either a very sheltered person or you are involved it has to be one or the other I mean she looked pretty coherent to me when she was out partying it up!!! And her child was missing.. I mean when do you think she would have told had her mother not went and tracked her down like an animal????

Tate
09-01-2008, 12:28 AM
????? Yeah, I guess a corpse smells better in a field than it does closed in a trunk.

LOL!!!!!! :clap:

DADSGIRL4EVER
09-01-2008, 12:28 AM
:clap:
Someone posted this on the "Osco confirms Caylee DNA" thread

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242005-145140/unrestricted/Collier_thesis.pdf

This is an amazing resource. Thank you for sharing it.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:29 AM
You said exactly what I was thinking but couldn't put in words.

I'm waiting for my knight in shining armor, too ;-)

I do believe in him. See he is true and you can stop waiting I already took him.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 12:29 AM
Oh yes, I did read it. Her "lies" weren't coherent enough to me to even quite be lies. That, plus the thing about the seizure, plus the very bizarre and detached behavior ever since, plus now the bizarre letter to the young girl where Casey sounds so regressed it's more like she's a 12 year old herself, all of these things make me wonder whether Casey is in shock or is having some other medical or mental issue. Either that or she really is afraid of retribution if she tells who has Caylee or whatever. Of course it's possible that Caylee isn't alive and Casey knows what happened. That's only one of many possibilities at this point, though. My opinion only

Reminds me of Anna Nicole Smith's final days . . . anyone remember the bizzare video that surfaced when she had her faced painted like a clown, talking like a kid, playing with a young girl . . .

Chanler
09-01-2008, 12:29 AM
Of course we don't know all the facts yet, but it looks like she probably stole the money from the friend, we don't know why yet. There are also all the strange statements to police. To me it looks more like a nervous breakdown, or confusion, trauma, shock....hard to tell. Like I say, I think if she were a pathological liar trying to deceive police she would make up stories that sound plausible. Not small lies that don't make sense and which are disproved very quickly. I have no idea what's going on with Casey, I hope they've had her in for medical tests, especially if that seizure did happen (was it earlier this year or in 2007?) But anyway, having had a breakdown or something and needing to pay back money to this friend, or being a murderer, there's a pretty great distance between the two. Even though stealing is serious, of course.

Hi, Seagull65. I admire your hopefulness, but I haven't read anything about Casey's behavior since Caylee was last seen that indicates "nervous breakdown...or trauma [or] shock". She has seemed confused, but it seems that she has always been a disorganized person whose stories fluctuated, sometimes with purpose and sometimes not.

jbar
09-01-2008, 12:29 AM
I can't take credit. I read it on another thread here.

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 12:29 AM
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-01242005-145140/unrestricted/Collier_thesis.pdf

This is about the same thing i found. This is a link brought over from another thread.

That is only one thesis. I will go through it and let you know what I think about it. Here's a couple of links that maybe you could take a look at.
http://www.themacdonaldcase.org/accuracy.html

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=275

Also, look up Anjali Swienton with scilawforensics and William C. Thompson

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:31 AM
You are either a very sheltered person or you are involved it has to be one or the other I mean she looked pretty coherent to me when she was out partying it up!!! And her child was missing.. I mean when do you think she would have told had her mother not went and tracked her down like an animal????

Fear can do strange things. Not saying I agree with her actions but then again I am not her so I can't say what she was feeling.

Tate
09-01-2008, 12:31 AM
Right, I still don't have enough facts to know whether she's a pathological liar or if it's an innocent compulsive lying problem, or whether Casey is alive or not. So I will remain hopeful that she is alive unless the evidence becomes irrefutable. Of course even if the evidence finally proves that Caylee is no longer living (hopefully this is not the case), then there would be the next hurdle of whether Casey had anything to do with her death.

Boy, I know the defense team would want you on the jury!!

krimekat
09-01-2008, 12:31 AM
A person on a different site said they had smelled a dead body and that they really couldn't tell the difference between it and a dead animal.

There is definitely a difference . . . if you have not experienced the smell of a decaying body, then go search it out! You will then know there is NO comparison to animal decomp or food that is spoiled . . .

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:32 AM
Reminds me of Anna Nicole Smith's final days . . . anyone remember the bizzare video that surfaced when she had her faced painted like a clown, talking like a kid, playing with a young girl . . .

HMMMM dugs make you do strange things.

EastSideOfSaddness
09-01-2008, 12:32 AM
I'll continue to sit on the fence til I hear it from his mouth himself. Not trusting reporters on this one. I want to believe there is still a chance.

I heard it from the detectives mouth on the news so far 2 times today. He confirmed all the media reports are accurate and that they have conclusive evidence that Caylee was in the trunk of her mom's car and was dead. He said now we are searching for a dead body.

Cindy also responded saying that she wanted an apology from the OCSO and that we should be searching for an alive Caylee.

jbar
09-01-2008, 12:32 AM
Again though, this isn't about Casey. We don't know yet who is the one who killed little Caylee - we can only assume with what information we have.

However, with Caylee, we do know the outcome based on the information we have. It's science!

Amity
09-01-2008, 12:34 AM
EntreNous wrote: Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:.

EntreNous,
Thank you so very much for this explanation and in layman's terms I can understand.:) Much Appreciated!

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:35 AM
I heard it from the detectives mouth on the news so far 2 times today. He confirmed all the media reports are accurate and that they have conclusive evidence that Caylee was in the trunk of her mom's car and was dead. He said now we are searching for a dead body.

I wish you could point me to a video. Because I need to hear it myself from the detectives. Even though I still would want to sit on the fence. Hate me for not wanting to believe that she is not with us anymore, if you want. Oppinions are like a$$h0le$ we all have them. That's what my father always said anyway.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:37 AM
Didn't you find Casey's statements to police very strange? Like saying, "Zenaida lived there (pointing to an old folks' home) on the second floor with her mother, and her roommate lived on the floor above her, the 3rd floor".....all that weird stuff. It doesn't make sense, it's incoherent.
Oh, but trust me, I was just as horrified as you at her not being able to give police concrete leads all this time.
Then it turns out this building she was pointing at for police was across from where she'd been staying with friends (Ricardo and JP's apartment where Amy also stayed). So, was she trying to clue the police in to anything? Is she confused and doesn't know the difference? It doesn't make any sense as a lie since they of course find out in 5 minutes that it's an old folks' home she's pointing at.

magiemay
09-01-2008, 12:37 AM
Fear can do strange things. Not saying I agree with her actions but then again I am not her so I can't say what she was feeling.
Fear of what??? The kidnappers ??? I mean in the beginning the nanny had her and she just loved Caylee so much per Casey that is. what was the fear I think maybe the only fear was people finding out she no longer had Caylee. what do you think? then the kidnappers came and they had her then ,Zanny had a sister Sam. Now was any of this incoherent????

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 12:38 AM
EntreNous wrote: Hi guys. I'm new to this forum but this is one question I can answer, prolly the only one :crazy:.

EntreNous,
Thank you so very much for this explanation and in layman's terms I can understand.:) Much Appreciated!

Welcome Amity!

Tate
09-01-2008, 12:38 AM
Do you still believe in Santa Claus too? I could discount the body farm saying they was a dead body in the car. I could discount the FBI saying there was DNA evidence saying Caylee's hair was in the trunk and it came from a dead person. I could discount the mother not telling anyone her daughter was missing for 31 days. I could discount the dogs hitting on the trunk. I could discount the mother saying a person that cannot be found to have existed took her baby. I could discount that her saying she told 2 other people about her missing in those 31 days even if one denies it and the other doesn't exist. I could discount a lot of things. BUT IN THE SAME CASE? I want her to be alive, too. I also want the tooth fairy to come and leave me money when I put my tooth under the pillow, but that isn't going to happen. Are the Anthony's posting here?

LOL!! I've been wondering the same thing!!

DADSGIRL4EVER
09-01-2008, 12:38 AM
I really wish I could agree with you Seagull. I unfortunately, do not share your views. I am not sure why you think a pathological liar has to make things up that sound plausible. Also, I don't think there could be a good reason for her stealing large amounts of money from family and friends. I would love to still have the hope that you do. Perhaps by understanding your views, we may be able to understand a little better where Cindy is coming from. I say that with respect, I am not trying to be sarcstic at all.

McDonough
09-01-2008, 12:39 AM
As someone who has smelled a rotting corpse, I can verify that it smells NOTHING like animal, food, or plant decomp. AT ALL.

My hubby is a funeral director and has sadly had much experience with badly decomposed bodies. He said that even a person who is uneducated in what human decomposition smells like would almost certainly know what they were smelling if they encountered it - human decomposition, in his own words, is the worst smell imaginable, especially is high heat is also a factor in the situation.

PoppyMcTwist
09-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Fear can do strange things. Not saying I agree with her actions but then again I am not her so I can't say what she was feeling.


The "My fear made me pole dance" defense.

IMO

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Fear of what??? The kidnappers ??? I mean in the beginning the nanny had her and she just loved Caylee so much per Casey that is. what was the fear I think maybe the only fear was people finding out she no longer had Caylee. what do you think? then the kidnappers came and they had her then ,Zanny had a sister Sam. Now was any of this incoherent????

I believe I said I was not her and I could not say what she was feeling.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 12:40 AM
My hubby is a funeral director and has sadly had much experience with badly decomposed bodies. He said that even a person who is uneducated in what human decomposition smells like would almost certainly know what they were smelling if they encountered it - human decomposition, in his own words, is the worst smell imaginable, especially is high heat is also a factor in the situation.

Yes--it was beyond description, and even though I had never smelled it before, there was no question what it was.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:43 AM
Reminds me of Anna Nicole Smith's final days . . . anyone remember the bizzare video that surfaced when she had her faced painted like a clown, talking like a kid, playing with a young girl . . .

I will never forget that.
One of the saddest things I've ever seen. And him filming it with amusement.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 12:46 AM
I wish you could point me to a video. Because I need to hear it myself from the detectives. Even though I still would want to sit on the fence. Hate me for not wanting to believe that she is not with us anymore, if you want. Oppinions are like a$$h0le$ we all have them. That's what my father always said anyway.

1) WESH-Channel 2 trumpeted that it had broken the news. Anchor Amanda Ober said, "For the first time, Orange County investigators go on the record: They tell WESH2 that recent FBI lab tests indicated Caylee Anthony's body was in her mother's trunk and that the child is dead. It's a story our Bob Kealing broke on WESH.com this afternoon."

2) WFTV-Channel 9 on Wednesday reported that the child was dead. WFTV promoted that coverage in an early evening newscast Sunday. WFTV also offered Allen on camera saying, "There was a dead body in the trunk of Casey's car and that body was Caylee."

3) WOFL-Channel 35 reported that Sgt. Allen would say, off camera, that the evidence suggests Caylee's dead body was in the car.

So, three Orlando stations apparently have LE confirming forensics . . . I bet video is on their sites.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:46 AM
The "My fear made me pole dance" defense.

IMO

that part of the character assassination has irked me throughout this case, too. Even if she worked as a stripper, or pole dancer, or prostitute, that would have nothing to do with being a murderer.

It's possible she thought or knew Caylee was with someone safe at the time, it's possible she's so confused and disintegrated that she forgets what's going on, it's possible she's in shock and doesn't really understand that Caylee is gone. I can't tell yet. She definitely mixes dates up completely, she said the 9th was the last she saw Caylee but Caylee was definitely fine until the 15th at least.

magiemay
09-01-2008, 12:46 AM
Let me tell you I have had the opportunity or should I say unfortunate opportunity to live with a person who was just like Casey it was so much like it my hubby said the other day you know who she sounds like and I said who he told me I said you know my friend and I just said that this morning, are they dangerous well lets just say he took his life and his girl friends you know why he was nailed to the wall to accept responsibility for actions he was involved in at the time. people with these problems are capable of killing their child or you if you cross her wrong make no mistake.

Chezhire
09-01-2008, 12:47 AM
Do you still believe in Santa Claus too? I could discount the body farm saying they was a dead body in the car. I could discount the FBI saying there was DNA evidence saying Caylee's hair was in the trunk and it came from a dead person. I could discount the mother not telling anyone her daughter was missing for 31 days. I could discount the dogs hitting on the trunk. I could discount the mother saying a person that cannot be found to have existed took her baby. I could discount that her saying she told 2 other people about her missing in those 31 days even if one denies it and the other doesn't exist. I could discount a lot of things. BUT IN THE SAME CASE? I want her to be alive, too. I also want the tooth fairy to come and leave me money when I put my tooth under the pillow, but that isn't going to happen. Are the Anthony's posting here?

ouch. although I am sadly in agreement with many other WSers (after several weeks of playing the devil's advocate about this precise issue,) I do applaud those with different opinions than I and so I personally find the above post was a little too sarcastic.

LI_Mom
09-01-2008, 12:47 AM
thanks for this, is this a coloration band within the shaft of the hair or something to do with the follicle around the root of the hair? Was this part of the leak from the University of Tennessee that did some of the forensics? thanks for any link to this information. I heard one expert on TV saying that you can't tell the difference, that hair that the person lost while alive would appear the same as hair that decomposed with the body and then became detached. But I don't know who that expert was.

If Casey is charged with murder I imagine we'll be hearing experts on both sides.

I can't remember what he said specifically.... all I remember was something about a "band" near the root of the hair that (and I think he might have said SOMETIMES) forms after a person dies.

It must be some kind of chemical reaction or something.

It seems to be a fairly new science & I'm sure we'll hear experts from both sides weigh in on the issue.

Like the 'sniff tests'.... also a very new science & I don't even know whether this has ever been presented to a jury yet. The body farm has isolated all the different particles that are released as a body decomposes & I suppose when they test air samples they look for all the various particles.

IIRC, they started testing this so they can build a machine that recreates what a cadaver dog smells. (And we thought only humans are losing jobs to machines?! lol)


Let's not forget that it wasn't THAT long ago that DNA testing was a brand new science & people said it would never hold up in courts.

Technology is growing by leaps & bounds & I'm sure forensics evidence will hold many great surprises for us in the future.


In any event, I think this will be a very interesting trial for the new science that might be introduced.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 12:47 AM
HMMMM dugs make you do strange things.

Drugs are bad!!!

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 12:47 AM
that part of the character assassination has irked me throughout this case, too. Even if she worked as a stripper, or pole dancer, or prostitute, that would have nothing to do with being a murderer.

It's possible she thought or knew Caylee was with someone safe at the time, it's possible she's so confused and disintegrated that she forgets what's going on, it's possible she's in shock and doesn't really understand that Caylee is gone. I can't tell yet. She definitely mixes dates up completely, she said the 9th was the last she saw Caylee but Caylee was definitely fine until the 15th at least.

Do you think she may have accidently had a lobotomy?

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 12:47 AM
Do you have a theory of where Caylee is, or why Casey, if she's innocent, isn't telling the truth about where she last saw her?

I wonder what you thought of the phonecall between Casey and Cindy when Casey was first in jail. Did you hear Casey's indifference toward her her mother, her brother, and her friend? She had an eye-rolling attitude at their fear and grief, and just wanted her boyfriend's phone number. She never mentioned Caylee except to whine when asked about her.

I'm trying to be open-minded and am curious what you think of these questions.

Another thing, don't you think there are $225,000.00 reasons for whoever had her bring her back? There have been no credible leads to finding this child. For $225,000.00 I would turn in my mother.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:48 AM
1) WESH-Channel 2 trumpeted that it had broken the news. Anchor Amanda Ober said, "For the first time, Orange County investigators go on the record: They tell WESH2 that recent FBI lab tests indicated Caylee Anthony's body was in her mother's trunk and that the child is dead. It's a story our Bob Kealing broke on WESH.com this afternoon."

2) WFTV-Channel 9 on Wednesday reported that the child was dead. WFTV promoted that coverage in an early evening newscast Sunday. WFTV also offered Allen on camera saying, "There was a dead body in the trunk of Casey's car and that body was Caylee."

3) WOFL-Channel 35 reported that Sgt. Allen would say, off camera, that the evidence suggests Caylee's dead body was in the car.

So, three Orlando stations apparently have LE confirming forensics . . . I but video is on their sites.

Have looked all I can find are the reports.

Shermie
09-01-2008, 12:48 AM
A person on a different site said they had smelled a dead body and that they really couldn't tell the difference between it and a dead animal.

What's your point?

Chezhire
09-01-2008, 12:50 AM
Oh yes, I did read it. Her "lies" weren't coherent enough to me to even quite be lies. That, plus the thing about the seizure, plus the very bizarre and detached behavior ever since, plus now the bizarre letter to the young girl where Casey sounds so regressed it's more like she's a 12 year old herself, all of these things make me wonder whether Casey is in shock or is having some other medical or mental issue. Either that or she really is afraid of retribution if she tells who has Caylee or whatever. Of course it's possible that Caylee isn't alive and Casey knows what happened. That's only one of many possibilities at this point, though. My opinion only

...together with the possibility that all of what you just mentioned could very well become the platform for the defense counsel to set up a diminished capacity/other similar defense.

pregodego2
09-01-2008, 12:50 AM
1 dog and possible human handler error.
2 dogs in the backyard, and did they find anything back there?

We don't know. Le doesn't offer everything in their hand right away, as we all know by now. Here's some food for thought:

1. The day the police were originally called, George was back there moving around the playhouse and looking under the slabs for any signs of "foul play" and Cindy was looking in the shed.

2. The dogs hit by the sandbox and it was later found out that Cindy had taken toys from the car and put them back in the sandbox.

It is VERY possible that either
a. caylee was buried back there then moved.
b. caylee's decomp dna or scent was on those toys from being in the car with her and caused hits.
c. George touched anything in that car that had decomp fluids on it and then went in the backyard and was touching the playhouse and the slabs - therefore transfering the scent.

here's some info: http://dogs.about.com/cs/searchandrescue/a/cadaver_dogs.htm


Cadaver Dogs are trained to locate and follow the scent of decomposing human flesh. Not a pretty thought, but their job is vital to both families of the victims, and to a justice system that ofttimes needs a body to prove a crime. These dogs work both on and off leash and are trained to detect the scent of decomposition that rises from the soil, same principle as when a dog knows where he last buried his bone.


Dogs must be trained as trailing dogs and air-scenting dogs. Trailing dogs follow a scent that has fallen on the ground. These dogs can pick out a human, or in the case of Cadaver dogs, a decomposing human's scent that was carried on a breeze, or "fallen" from a person carrying a body to it's location. Air-scenting is similar to trailing, but an air-scenting dog must be able to pick the scent out of a breeze and follow it to the source.


this site has great stuff! http://www.ilpwda.com/faqs.htm

The term "decomposition dog" better describes how dogs will indicate decomp human scent which includes blood, feces, urine or other material with human scent on it.


Is evidence searching the same as forensic evidence?

Terminology gets confusing, people use different words to mean the same thing or the same word to mean different things. We define evidence searching as an article with live human scent on it. Forensic evidence searching can be cadaver, decomposing human scent, or any body fluids from a deceased person. These scents can be on an article, the actual body, in the ground or residual. The main point is a forensic evidence dog is never looking for live scent.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:50 AM
Drugs are bad!!!

Mkay. Hey funny thought the teacher from southpark that said that wasn't his name Mr. Garrison? lol too funny. Where did that guy go by the way? He is a strange one.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 12:50 AM
stealing is definitely serious, I'm not arguing that. I once knew someone who had a nervous breakdown during her first year of college. She stole and ran up an enormous debt on her mother's credit card. She was charged with grand larceny. Luckily she was able to return most of it immediately, she got the treatment she needed and eventually paid the rest, I think her family also helped her a bit when they realized the state she was in. This was 20 years ago, she never had any problems after that.

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 12:51 AM
If mtDNA testing was done how could they tell between CA and Caylee's hair?

LiveLoveLaughLiza
09-01-2008, 12:51 AM
Do you think she may have accidently had a lobotomy?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you librarian mama, I need that.:blowkiss:

Gram2
09-01-2008, 12:51 AM
Deputies Not Ready to Confirm that Caylee is Dead
http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.html

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:54 AM
Deputies Not Ready to Confirm that Caylee is Dead
http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.html

Nice update. Thanks been to busy here the last hour.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 12:54 AM
HMMMM dugs make you do strange things.


Mkay. Hey funny thought the teacher from southpark that said that wasn't his name Mr. Garrison? lol too funny. Where did that guy go by the way? He is a strange one.

Who's that? Anthony's spokesperson who hasn't been speaking . . .

tee frickin' hee

Rlaub44
09-01-2008, 12:54 AM
Oppinions are like a$$h0le$ we all have them.

It is true that we are entitled to our own opinion, but how we process scientific fact is not a matter of opinion. While I haven't seen the video of LE stating the DNA results, I believe the media when they report information quoting a police source, by name, in his own words.

I really find it admirable that so many people are holding on to the hope that Caylee is still alive, but it is hard for me to understand going to the lengths of disbelieving the wealth of information put together; i.e., the cadaver dogs, the air test from the Body Farm, several witnesses smelling decomosition, and finally DNA results matching little Caylee post-mortem. Add to that the fact that Caylee has been missing for all these weeks and the picture is, unfortunately, all too clear for me.

As to who is responsible, that is for another post, but again, the totality of the evidence again, to me, speaks volumes. And that is just my opinion.

jd_martin
09-01-2008, 12:54 AM
stealing is definitely serious, I'm not arguing that. I once knew someone who had a nervous breakdown during her first year of college. She stole and ran up an enormous debt on her mother's credit card. She was charged with grand larceny. Luckily she was able to return most of it immediately, she got the treatment she needed and eventually paid the rest, I think her family also helped her a bit when they realized the state she was in. This was 20 years ago, she never had any problems after that.

Think its possible she learned her lesson? I know i have done crazy things in my life. And when i got caught and realized the consequences i straightened up real fast. I guess what im trying to say is Casey has a history of this crap. This isnt just a one time thing because she was sad.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:55 AM
It is true that we are entitled to our own opinion, but how we process scientific fact is not a matter of opinion. While I haven't seen the video of LE stating the DNA results, I believe the media when they report information quoting a police source, by name, in his own words.

I really find it admirable that so many people are holding on to the hope that Caylee is still alive, but it is hard for me to understand going to the lengths of disbelieving the wealth of information put together; i.e., the cadaver dogs, the air test from the Body Farm, several witnesses smelling decomosition, and finally DNA results matching little Caylee post-mortem. Add to that the fact that Caylee has been missing for all these weeks and the picture is, unfortunately, all too clear for me.

As to who is responsible, that is for another post, but again, the totality of the evidence again, to me, speaks volumes. And that is just my opinion.

Well maybe you should check local 6's latest update.

McDonough
09-01-2008, 12:55 AM
Yes--it was beyond description, and even though I had never smelled it before, there was no question what it was.

Hubby said the same thing. While in mortuary school he spent a few months embalming bodies at the Cook County morgue in Chicago, there he had his first encounter with hard core human decomposition. There were days that just being in a well ventilated room with one of these decomposed bodies made him want to throw away all of the clothes he was wearing as soon as he was finished with his duties - the smell lingers with you for a long time.

I also asked him about the car, why the smell of decomposition was there after the body had been removed. He said that when a body has been in a small enclosed space, especially in the extreme heat of a Florida summer day, the smell of decomposition will permeate any porpos surface and will linger for a very very long time after the body has been removed. Depending on how extreme the conditions are, there are times when removing the decomp smell would be absolutely impossible.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 12:56 AM
Seagull--can you direct me to the medical definition of a nervous breakdown? Is that a psychiatric term?

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 12:56 AM
If mtDNA testing was done how could they tell between CA and Caylee's hair?

Because Casey is alive and the hair came from a dead person?

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 12:57 AM
We don't know. Le doesn't offer everything in their hand right away, as we all know by now. Here's some food for thought:

1. The day the police were originally called, George was back there moving around the playhouse and looking under the slabs for any signs of "foul play" and Cindy was looking in the shed.

2. The dogs hit by the sandbox and it was later found out that Cindy had taken toys from the car and put them back in the sandbox.

It is VERY possible that either
a. caylee was buried back there then moved.
b. caylee's decomp dna or scent was on those toys from being in the car with her and caused hits.
c. George touched anything in that car that had decomp fluids on it and then went in the backyard and was touching the playhouse and the slabs - therefore transfering the scent.

here's some info: http://dogs.about.com/cs/searchandrescue/a/cadaver_dogs.htm






this site has great stuff! http://www.ilpwda.com/faqs.htm

So in a nutshell you are saying that dogs are correct 100% of the time? And the handlers have no room for human error?

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 12:57 AM
Rlaub44 after reading that I wanted to make sure you didn't take my quote wrong. Sounded a little harsh when I read it. sorry.

magic-cat
09-01-2008, 12:58 AM
What are the chances that there was a DIFFERENT dead body in Casey's trunk and that it was NOT her daughter? The odds are severely against such an outcome...

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:00 AM
What are the chances that there was a DIFFERENT dead body in Casey's trunk and that it was NOT her daughter? The odds are severely against such an outcome...

C'mon! We have all had the experience that when our car is towed to an impound lot, someone puts a corpse in the trunk and removes it when we pick it up.

PoppyMcTwist
09-01-2008, 01:01 AM
that part of the character assassination has irked me throughout this case, too. Even if she worked as a stripper, or pole dancer, or prostitute, that would have nothing to do with being a murderer.

It's possible she thought or knew Caylee was with someone safe at the time, it's possible she's so confused and disintegrated that she forgets what's going on, it's possible she's in shock and doesn't really understand that Caylee is gone. I can't tell yet. She definitely mixes dates up completely, she said the 9th was the last she saw Caylee but Caylee was definitely fine until the 15th at least.

You are correct. It is the "My confusion and disintegration forced me to pole dance" defense.

JMO

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:01 AM
Well maybe you should check local 6's latest update.


What are the chances that there was a DIFFERENT dead body in Casey's trunk and that it was NOT her daughter? The odds are severely against such an outcome...

I am so confused by this. Why can people believe she would kill her daughter but not someone else.

magic-cat
09-01-2008, 01:01 AM
Yeah, that happens to me everytime my car gets towed...they throw in a dead body and leave it there until I arrive to retrieve the car...

Come on folks...REALITY is closing in on you...PAY ATTENTION.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:02 AM
oops didn't mean the multi quote

Nore
09-01-2008, 01:02 AM
Science doesn't lie. You can't fake science. I don't believe in a lot of things, but I do believe in science.
-----------------
I believe they have used the same method on the DNA that is used on the skeletons of G.I.'s found in Viet Nam,Korea, and even WW!!..We had one returned to his home town in Southern Ohio. The hair remains in the grave etc. with the body and is also used.I think of the great job the dogs did finding bodies after 9/11,what heroes!..Nore

Amity
09-01-2008, 01:03 AM
Question about decomp------

I know the breakdown of a body starts almost immediately after death.
If it takes around 12 hours for a human body to be cool to the touch and takes almost a full month for adipocere to begin to appear, just what could they be testing as far as the 'stain' on the trunk's carpet?

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:04 AM
Let's not forget that it wasn't THAT long ago that DNA testing was a brand new science & people said it would never hold up in courts.

Technology is growing by leaps & bounds & I'm sure forensics evidence will hold many great surprises for us in the future.


In any event, I think this will be a very interesting trial for the new science that might be introduced.

And then years later they discovered about "chimerism", and how a person can have more than one DNA makeup within their body, meaning that some convictions based on DNA evidence have been wrong.

You're right about the new technology always emerging, it will be interesting to see what more than one expert/set of experts say about whatever evidence is presented. If any of it ever goes to court. Maybe we'll be blessed and Caylee will be found before then.

magic-cat
09-01-2008, 01:04 AM
I do not believe she ACTUALLY killed her daughter, except through negligence-like leaving her in the car or not watching her near the pool or in the tub or something-but the facts in this case are getting clearer and clearer by the day and they do not point to a LIVING Caylee but to a dead baby who was put in her mother's TRUNK rather than in an ambulance as MOST of us would do in a similar circumstance...

EastSideOfSaddness
09-01-2008, 01:04 AM
I wish you could point me to a video. Because I need to hear it myself from the detectives. Even though I still would want to sit on the fence. Hate me for not wanting to believe that she is not with us anymore, if you want. Oppinions are like a$$h0le$ we all have them. That's what my father always said anyway.

I wish you lived in Orlando so you could have watched the news earlier. I'm just relaying what I saw on the news with my 2 eyes and ears. If you wish not believe me, I don't care. I'm only reporting what was on TV 2 times today.

It is not my OPINION what I heard, it was on the news--that is all I was reporting. Hate you? I have no idea where you got that from or why you would feel this way. You can choose to believe whatever you want, I tend to side with science rather than faith.

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 01:05 AM
What is known about this "air" testing and how many court cases have used and won?

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:06 AM
Well maybe you should check local 6's latest update.

MommaShark: to be more credible, you could have supplied the link. http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.html

It is the ONLY Orlando media outlet reporting this . . .

Rlaub44
09-01-2008, 01:06 AM
Well maybe you should check local 6's latest update.

Just read it. I guess I am not surprised that unnamed deputies aren't confirming that she is no longer alive. However, they did not deny the results of the testing, either, so it still appears to me that the scientific data is valid, but these deputies are not in the position to interpret those results to the public to affirm that she is dead.

I suppose we will have to see what the official word is over the next few days, but I would be very surprised if they retract the initial confirmation.

magic-cat
09-01-2008, 01:06 AM
Question about decomp------

I know the breakdown of a body starts almost immediately after death.
If it takes around 12 hours for a human body to be cool to the touch and takes almost a full month for adipocere to begin to appear, just what could they be testing as far as the 'stain' on the trunk's carpet?

The lining of the nose and mouth oozes out in a fluid substance between 4 and 7 days after death as it "breaks down". In "tropical" climates this can occur more quickly...like in the trunk of a car in the Florida heat.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:06 AM
And then years later they discovered about "chimerism", and how a person can have more than one DNA makeup within their body, meaning that some convictions based on DNA evidence have been wrong.

You're right about the new technology always emerging, it will be interesting to see what more than one expert/set of experts say about whatever evidence is presented. If any of it ever goes to court. Maybe we'll be blessed and Caylee will be found before then.

Yes, we can always pray that Casey tells TES and LE where she dumped the body. But then, how can we ever be sure it's Caylee?

magiemay
09-01-2008, 01:07 AM
You are correct. It is the "My confusion and disintegration forced me to pole dance" defense.

JMO
As for the date thing with her saying the 9th she might have had a wrong date but she sure kept saying 31 days over and over isn't it just possible that if you don't have a real job don't have to pay bills so you don't know what day the rent is due 1 date is as good as another I mean why would you keep the 9th seperate from the 15th? this is my thinking I know when mom paid the bills all I kept up with was when was FRiday.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:08 AM
Do you think she may have accidently had a lobotomy?

Oh no! But seriously, I wouldn't rule out drugs or a breakdown of some kind. That's only speculation of course.

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 01:08 AM
MommaShark: to be more credible, you could have supplied the link. http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.html

It is the ONLY Orlando media outlet reporting this . . .

Now that sounds more like it!

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:08 AM
I wish you lived in Orlando so you could have watched the news earlier. I'm just relaying what I saw on the news with my 2 eyes and ears. If you wish not believe me, I don't care. I'm only reporting what was on TV 2 times today.

It is not my OPINION what I heard, it was on the news--that is all I was reporting. Hate you? I have no idea where you got that from or why you would feel this way. You can choose to believe whatever you want, I tend to side with science rather than faith.

I have not personally heard the science. Was not talking to you specifically about hating my oppinion. Sorry if you took offense.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:08 AM
What is known about this "air" testing and how many court cases have used and won?

It's never been used in court. I think it's a new science, and it's used for investigative purposes.

magic-cat
09-01-2008, 01:08 AM
What is known about this "air" testing and how many court cases have used and won?

ALL forensics used in LE today have been documented by UT-"The Body Farm"

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 01:09 AM
As for the date thing with her saying the 9th she might have had a wrong date but she sure kept saying 31 days over and over isn't it just possible that if you don't have a real job don't have to pay bills so you don't know what day the rent is due 1 date is as good as another I mean why would you keep the 9th seperate from the 15th? this is my thinking I know when mom paid the bills all I kept up with was when was FRiday.

Or she could have intentionally used the wrong date to throw LE off. In the documents she even claimed to have gotten a phone call from the Nanny on the 12th of June, when we all know now that Caylee was seen several times after the 12th.

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 01:10 AM
It's never been used in court. I think it's a new science, and it's used for investigative purposes.

Can't quote here but I thought I heard other WSers say that it has been used in court and won.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:10 AM
Oh no! But seriously, I wouldn't rule out drugs or a breakdown of some kind. That's only speculation of course.

She's had since July 15th to recover from whatever drugs caused her to lie and mislead LE. You're suggesting some sort of brain damage as her excuse for all the lies. Also, can you provide us with some examples of other cases where drugs have caused continuous lying?

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 01:12 AM
It's never been used in court. I think it's a new science, and it's used for investigative purposes.

It would never hold up alone and if in fact mtdna testing was it's not going to say if it is CA's or Caylee's hair.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:13 AM
Can't quote here but I thought I heard other WSers say that it has been used in court and won.

Sorry if I mistyped! I thought I had heard it on NG that it was new--I also don't have a quote.

nnglas
09-01-2008, 01:14 AM
It would never hold up alone and if in fact mtdna testing was it's not going to say if it is CA's or Caylee's hair.

Could you point me to one piece of evidence that says it wasn't Caylee's hair? Or that it didn't show she was dead?

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:14 AM
If mtDNA testing was done how could they tell between CA and Caylee's hair?

That's right.

So in that case, it's only the sniff tests.

I remain on the fence and hopeful that Caylee is alive and that her young mother's life will also not be ruined.

magiemay
09-01-2008, 01:15 AM
Or she could have intentionally used the wrong date to throw LE off. In the documents she even claimed to have gotten a phone call from the Nanny on the 12th of June, when we all know now that Caylee was seen several times after the 12th.
This is a good point but it is really unusual if you count back 31 days that is the last day anyone actually said they saw her, I don't know why she opted to tell the 31 days but it did land back on June 16 GA says they left home with the backpacks.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:15 AM
Totally off subject here. But I have just realized that I gave up having dinner tonight for The Food Network. I am on the CA+CA diet. Anyone else?

Tate
09-01-2008, 01:15 AM
She's had since July 15th to recover from whatever drugs caused her to lie and mislead LE. You're suggesting some sort of brain damage as her excuse for all the lies. Also, can you provide us with some examples of other cases where drugs have caused continuous lying?

I admire your temerity, Librarian_Mama. Keep fighting the good fight, and thanks for the laughs! Me: I can't take it anymore, so I'll bid you all goodnight...

Mama Bear
09-01-2008, 01:16 AM
Yeah, that happens to me everytime my car gets towed...they throw in a dead body and leave it there until I arrive to retrieve the car...

Come on folks...REALITY is closing in on you...PAY ATTENTION.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could not have been said any better. Total agree

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God bless Caylee

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:17 AM
I wish you could point me to a video. Because I need to hear it myself from the detectives. Even though I still would want to sit on the fence. Hate me for not wanting to believe that she is not with us anymore, if you want. Oppinions are like a$$h0le$ we all have them. That's what my father always said anyway.

Nobody's sipping on Hate-rade . . . :drink:

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:17 AM
Could you point me to one piece of evidence that says it wasn't Caylee's hair? Or that it didn't show she was dead?

One expert on Headline News said if hair just gets into the trunk innocently (like off a toy, coat, blanket or whatever) it will show the same signs of decomposition as hair that was attached to a dead body while decomposing and then fell off.

Also, if the sample was so degraded they couldn't get long DNA sequences but only short fragments, they said they might have had to use mitochondrial DNA, and that is identical in the mother or daughter so it could just as easily have been Casey's hair, if that is the case.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:18 AM
That's right.

So in that case, it's only the sniff tests.

I remain on the fence and hopeful that Caylee is alive and that her young mother's life will also not be ruined.

too late for that!!!!

Pondering Mind
09-01-2008, 01:19 AM
Oh no! But seriously, I wouldn't rule out drugs or a breakdown of some kind. That's only speculation of course.

Even with drugs she wouldn't be confused a month later about what she would have done with her child. And with a "breakdown" of some sort she wouldn't have been out partying. JMHO What do you think probably really happened?

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:19 AM
Question about decomp------

I know the breakdown of a body starts almost immediately after death.
If it takes around 12 hours for a human body to be cool to the touch and takes almost a full month for adipocere to begin to appear, just what could they be testing as far as the 'stain' on the trunk's carpet?

thanks for the info

LI_Mom
09-01-2008, 01:21 AM
And then years later they discovered about "chimerism", and how a person can have more than one DNA makeup within their body, meaning that some convictions based on DNA evidence have been wrong.



Yes, but that's SO rare, I don't think it comes up too often. Thankfully.

That's why LE tries to gather as much evidence as they can so a jury doesn't have to rely on any SINGLE piece of evidence to come to a conclusion.

If an overwhelming amount evidence or even circumstantial evidence STILL will point to a person's guilt.... they have to be willing to stop thinking it's ALL just some terrible coincidence & the evidence is solid.


I mean.... can't a defense attorney ALWAYS come up with some far fetched scenario that can POSSIBLY be true....... you know a one in a trillion possibility but still technically possible?

I think this case is going to be fascinating when we hear ALL the evidence LE has AND when we finally get to hear the defense's case.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:21 AM
I admire your temerity, Librarian_Mama. Keep fighting the good fight, and thanks for the laughs! Me: I can't take it anymore, so I'll bid you all goodnight...

You're welcome! Have a great night.

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 01:22 AM
One expert on Headline News said if hair just gets into the trunk innocently (like off a toy, coat, blanket or whatever) it will show the same signs of decomposition as hair that was attached to a dead body while decomposing and then fell off.

Also, if the sample was so degraded they couldn't get long DNA sequences but only short fragments, they said they might have had to use mitochondrial DNA, and that is identical in the mother or daughter so it could just as easily have been Casey's hair, if that is the case.

At first some of the DNA information was vague but it was very clear today when the guy from the sheriff's dept said DNA was linked to Caylee and it was from a dead Caylee.

LiveLoveLaughLiza
09-01-2008, 01:22 AM
I admire that a few are still holding onto faith that Caylee may still be alive, but……

I also feel that a few that are arguing/stating opinions that Caylee may still be alive and in the same post say that Casey may not be at fault or support her, verges on soiling the memory of a beautiful innocent baby girl.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:23 AM
She's had since July 15th to recover from whatever drugs caused her to lie and mislead LE. You're suggesting some sort of brain damage as her excuse for all the lies. Also, can you provide us with some examples of other cases where drugs have caused continuous lying?

I'm sorry I don't have any links for you about drug addictions and lying/stealing, but I think most people will tell you in their experience that lying and stealing are frequent results of drug addiction. Again, I don't know that Casey ever used drugs. Her friends said only occasional marijuana use and not to the point of much intoxication, and no other drugs. I think one guy who didn't seem to know her as well (not one of the ones she'd lived with or anything) said he thought it was possible she could have used other drugs just because of the club scene. Again, my opinion only and I don't know if she was ever a drug user.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:24 AM
One expert on Headline News said if hair just gets into the trunk innocently (like off a toy, coat, blanket or whatever) it will show the same signs of decomposition as hair that was attached to a dead body while decomposing and then fell off.

Also, if the sample was so degraded they couldn't get long DNA sequences but only short fragments, they said they might have had to use mitochondrial DNA, and that is identical in the mother or daughter so it could just as easily have been Casey's hair, if that is the case.

Oh, OK...LE and the FBI are gathering information from HNN? Did LE say that the sample was degraded? Did they verify use of mito DNA?

BeanE
09-01-2008, 01:24 AM
Also, if the sample was so degraded they couldn't get long DNA sequences but only short fragments, they said they might have had to use mitochondrial DNA, and that is identical in the mother or daughter so it could just as easily have been Casey's hair, if that is the case.

I knew all along it was Casey in the trunk.

cwgrlfromhell
09-01-2008, 01:24 AM
I keep hoping against hope. I want Caylee to be alive, but the evidence is mounting. I just keep going back to the fact she didn't report her missing for weeks! As the mom of two kiddos....I would have been on the phone with 911 as soon as I couldn't find her. CA seems to be lacking the maternal instinct. I just keep asking WHY didn't she report her missing!??

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:26 AM
I'm just confused as to why they would report one thing to one channel and different to another. It's a conspiracy.
http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.html

nnglas
09-01-2008, 01:26 AM
One expert on Headline News said if hair just gets into the trunk innocently (like off a toy, coat, blanket or whatever) it will show the same signs of decomposition as hair that was attached to a dead body while decomposing and then fell off.

Also, if the sample was so degraded they couldn't get long DNA sequences but only short fragments, they said they might have had to use mitochondrial DNA, and that is identical in the mother or daughter so it could just as easily have been Casey's hair, if that is the case.

If and Might? Who said the sample was degraded? All I am saying is that there is so much evidence that she was dead in the trunk and no evidence that she wasn't. Instead of attacking scientific proof, perhaps they should produce some of their own. As a matter a fact, we would not even be having this conversation if they would just produce a live Caylee.

Honestly it doesn't sound like your arguement makes any sense. You don't sound as if you want to reasonable about it at all. You seem to me that you would not believe any scientific evidence that this child is dead. So basically short of a dead body you will believe this child is alive. And that is fine with me. However perhaps you should say that in you post so other will not waste their time trying to reason with you. If you choose to fly in the face of reason with blind baseless faith.... be my guest.

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 01:27 AM
Sometimes I think that even if we had poor Caylee's body recovered and video of Casey killing her that some people will never believe it. I just thought they were all Anthony's.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:27 AM
I'm sorry I don't have any links for you about drug addictions and lying/stealing, but I think most people will tell you in their experience that lying and stealing are frequent results of drug addiction. Again, I don't know that Casey ever used drugs. Her friends said only occasional marijuana use and not to the point of much intoxication, and no other drugs. I think one guy who didn't seem to know her as well (not one of the ones she'd lived with or anything) said he thought it was possible she could have used other drugs just because of the club scene. Again, my opinion only and I don't know if she was ever a drug user.

Yes, I'm sure lying and stealing are common in drug users. You are making the point that Casey has had some sort of drug reaction/"nervous breakdown" combo and that explains her not reporting the "kidnapping" for a month; her lack of knowledge of her nanny's phone number, address, wherabouts; lies about every single thing that pertains to the only thing LE cares about: Where is Caylee?

So, if you are not actually making that point, what IS your point?

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:31 AM
I admire your temerity, Librarian_Mama. Keep fighting the good fight, and thanks for the laughs! Me: I can't take it anymore, so I'll bid you all goodnight...


Just a reminder, this is the thread for people who want to discuss all the other theories of what may have happened, not only the theory that Caylee is dead. (Even granted that that is one possibility.) The problem with most boards on this case is that there are people who want to prevent anyone discussing the other possibilities. So that's what this thread is for. For anyone who isn't interested in the other theories (other than Caylee is dead and Casey is guilty), there are a whole bunch of other threads here you can use.

Have a great night and thanks for the great information everyone.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:31 AM
This thread needs a name change. The Big Casey Debate. Seagull have they changed your mind at all?

LI_Mom
09-01-2008, 01:32 AM
too late for that!!!!

ITA!

No matter what happens as far as Caylee goes, Casey's life is pretty much destroyed by now.

So far she's facing 17 years in jail & I don't think the prosecution will show her ANY leniency for these charges.... not after the way she lied to LE and the Feds!



I'd love to hear that Lee is finally able to get through to her & make her understand that she should do everything she can to make it easier on herself. I just don't see a jury showing her any mercy if she goes with some crazy story about how some nanny/kidnapper/friend took Caylee.

librarian_mama
09-01-2008, 01:34 AM
Just a reminder, this is the thread for people who want to discuss all the other theories of what may have happened, not only the theory that Caylee is dead. (Even granted that that is one possibility.) The problem with most boards on this case is that there are people who want to prevent anyone discussing the other possibilities. So that's what this thread is for. For anyone who isn't interested in the other theories (other than Caylee is dead and Casey is guilty), there are a whole bunch of other threads here you can use.

Have a great night and thanks for the great information everyone.

Nobody has prevented anyone else from discussing anything, actually. A discussion of theories involves an exchange of ideas. I think what you're looking for is agreement with your opinions.

I, too, must call it a night~everyone have a great one!

LI_Mom
09-01-2008, 01:35 AM
Just a reminder, this is the thread for people who want to discuss all the other theories of what may have happened, not only the theory that Caylee is dead. (Even granted that that is one possibility.) The problem with most boards on this case is that there are people who want to prevent anyone discussing the other possibilities. So that's what this thread is for. For anyone who isn't interested in the other theories (other than Caylee is dead and Casey is guilty), there are a whole bunch of other threads here you can use.

Have a great night and thanks for the great information everyone.

Ooops! Guilty as charged.... I hijacked your thread. Sorry 'bout that, Seagull.

Sleep well. :)

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:36 AM
Nobody has prevented anyone else from discussing anything, actually. A discussion of theories involves an exchange of ideas. I think what you're looking for is agreement with your opinions.

I, too, must call it a night~everyone have a great one!

I think the thread was for those on the fence. I think your mind is already made up. Most seemed to just want to convince others to believe what they believe.

BeanE
09-01-2008, 01:36 AM
Sometimes I think that even if we had poor Caylee's body recovered and video of Casey killing her that some people will never believe it. I just thought they were all Anthony's.

Not always a case of *believing* it or not. Can be a case of denying it. Even consciously. Some people enjoy being contrary. Some people enjoy jerking other people's chains. Some people particularly enjoy it in relation to a charged situation.

Disgusting when that situation is beautiful little 2 year old baby who's dead.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:37 AM
If and Might? Who said the sample was degraded? All I am saying is that there is so much evidence that she was dead in the trunk and no evidence that she wasn't. Instead of attacking scientific proof, perhaps they should produce some of their own. As a matter a fact, we would not even be having this conversation if they would just produce a live Caylee.

Honestly it doesn't sound like your arguement makes any sense. You don't sound as if you want to reasonable about it at all. You seem to me that you would not believe any scientific evidence that this child is dead. So basically short of a dead body you will believe this child is alive. And that is fine with me. However perhaps you should say that in you post so other will not waste their time trying to reason with you. If you choose to fly in the face of reason with blind baseless faith.... be my guest.


It's a very circumstantial case so far, with limited and debatable DNA findings. It will be interesting to see what the experts on all sides say about the sniff tests and which type of DNA they were able to get.

Yes, actually, this thread is intended for people who want to discuss all the possible theories, not just the theory that Caylee is dead. I do consider that to be one possibility. There's not much evidence yet though, only hair (which could be from a living Caylee, or could even be Casey's hair), and sniff tests. So I'm glad it's still not absolutely proved that Caylee is dead, she could still be alive. I sure hope she is.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:39 AM
BeanE,
I'm not sure which thread your post would be appropriate on that you just posted, probably not on any of the threads here, but it is not appropriate on this thread.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:40 AM
Not always a case of *believing* it or not. Can be a case of denying it. Even consciously. Some people enjoy being contrary. Some people enjoy jerking other people's chains. Some people particularly enjoy it in relation to a charged situation.

Disgusting when that situation is beautiful little 2 year old baby who's dead.

I don't find it all disgusting that someone doesnt want to say this child is dead until they know for sure. I think it's the way society needs to be. IMO

Mama Bear
09-01-2008, 01:40 AM
I keep hoping against hope. I want Caylee to be alive, but the evidence is mounting. I just keep going back to the fact she didn't report her missing for weeks! As the mom of two kiddos....I would have been on the phone with 911 as soon as I couldn't find her. CA seems to be lacking the maternal instinct. I just keep asking WHY didn't she report her missing!??

I agree being the mother of four young children where are Casey's maternal instincts. It seems as thou she has none at all or for what ever reasons she never really bonded with her child. I also just keep asking myself why she never reported her missing. It really never was Casey to pick up the phone and call 911 it was GM. I believe that if GM never found her and confronted her Casey had no intentions of reporting her missing. I agree the evidence is mounting to a very sad out come. It brings tears to my eyes to even say this but I believe Caylee is no longer with us.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God Bless That Little Angle

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:41 AM
Ooops! Guilty as charged.... I hijacked your thread. Sorry 'bout that, Seagull.

Sleep well. :)

Yeah, I, too, hijacked this thread . . .

CHICANA
09-01-2008, 01:41 AM
This is a new article that was posted 40 minutes ago. Maybe the fence sitters aren't trying to be contrary, just hopeful.

Deputies Not Ready To Confirm Caylee Is Dead
http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.html

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:42 AM
Oh, OK...LE and the FBI are gathering information from HNN? Did LE say that the sample was degraded? Did they verify use of mito DNA?

There hasn't been any confirmation yet.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:43 AM
This is a new article that was posted 40 minutes ago. Maybe the fence sitters aren't trying to be contrary, just hopeful.

Deputies Not Ready To Confirm Caylee Is Dead
http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.html

Thankyou. Wouldn't want to offend someone by hoping a beautiful little girl might possibly (even if slim) be alive.

jd_martin
09-01-2008, 01:44 AM
BeanE,
I'm not sure which thread your post would be appropriate on that you just posted, probably not on any of the threads here, but it is not appropriate on this thread.

You are not going to get too far playing "boss" I dont see anything wrong with what he said. Cindy is that you?
Just because you start a thread doesnt deem ownership.

BeanE
09-01-2008, 01:44 AM
BeanE,
I'm not sure which thread your post would be appropriate on that you just posted, probably not on any of the threads here, but it is not appropriate on this thread.

Thanks for sharing. Feel free to report it.

JBean
09-01-2008, 01:45 AM
This is a new article that was posted 40 minutes ago. Maybe the fence sitters aren't trying to be contrary, just hopeful.

Deputies Not Ready To Confirm Caylee Is Dead
http://www.local6.com/news/17356214/detail.htmlSo even LE won't make the leap yet. Sounds like they are the ones doing a little flip flopping now. Very interesting.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:45 AM
I don't find it all disgusting that someone doesnt want to say this child is dead until they know for sure. I think it's the way society needs to be. IMO

Thank you
We can keep hoping so far. Fingers crossed it continues.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:46 AM
Thanks for sharing. Feel free to report it.

This is the thread for fence-sitters, undecideds, who want to be able to discuss all the theories/possibilities, without being harrassed.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:46 AM
Thank you
We can keep hoping so far. Fingers crossed it continues.

I respect you for not going with the flow. More people need to be like you.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:47 AM
You are not going to get too far playing "boss" I dont see anything wrong with what he said. Cindy is that you?
Just because you start a thread doesnt deem ownership.

Of course not, but that's the subject of this thread. There are so many other threads people who are not fence-sitters can discuss on.

AutomaticAuttie
09-01-2008, 01:47 AM
So even LE won't make the leap yet. Sounds like they are the ones doing a little flip flopping now. Very interesting.

I think it's called bluffing to get her to talk. JMO

nnglas
09-01-2008, 01:47 AM
It's a very circumstantial case so far, with limited and debatable DNA findings. It will be interesting to see what the experts on all sides say about the sniff tests and which type of DNA they were able to get.

Yes, actually, this thread is intended for people who want to discuss all the possible theories, not just the theory that Caylee is dead. I do consider that to be one possibility. There's not much evidence yet though, only hair (which could be from a living Caylee, or could even be Casey's hair), and sniff tests. So I'm glad it's still not absolutely proved that Caylee is dead, she could still be alive. I sure hope she is.

First let me say that I will post on any thread on this website that I see fit. I have been registered on this site since 2006 and will not bow down to people who have been her for only this case. We are supposed to be able to discuss all possibilities. And that is what I am doing. Don't get upset because I don't agree with you. I understand that this thread is for other theories. The problem with your theory is that it has no factual basis whatsoever. What makes you think that DNA evidence is limited and or debateable. Not one person has said that the sample was degraded. I'm not talking about the sniff test. If you discount the sniff test then fine, but how can you discount the DNA. There is no proof that anything was wrong with the test or the sample.

So what is your limited and debateble evidence?

Cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk
Sniff test saying decomposed body in the car
DNA test saying Caylee decomposed in car
The fact that there is no live Caylee being produced
All of the contradictory statements made by mother
Mother's lack of trying to find or help find Caylee

And with that you believe that she isn't dead? Or is it like an earlier poster said, people just want to be contrary.

BeanE
09-01-2008, 01:47 AM
I don't find it all disgusting that someone doesnt want to say this child is dead until they know for sure. I think it's the way society needs to be. IMO

Thanks for sharing. I completely agree. I'm afraid, though, that I can't discern a correlation between my post and your response, if one was intended.

jd_martin
09-01-2008, 01:48 AM
This is the thread for fence-sitters, undecideds, who want to be able to discuss all the theories/possibilities, without being harrassed.

I think you need to re read the post you are complaining about. It contains opinions just like ALL of the posts on this forum.

LiveLoveLaughLiza
09-01-2008, 01:51 AM
Of course not, but that's the subject of this thread. There are so many other threads people who are not fence-sitters can discuss on.

I thought the definition of a fence sitter was one who had not made their mind up either way.......you and a few others are only stating one side, not both.

By definition, are you sitting on the fence?

ETA: sit on the fence
to delay making a decision when you have to choose between two sides in an argument or a competition

Talison
09-01-2008, 01:51 AM
I am so confused by this. Why can people believe she would kill her daughter but not someone else.

Probably because they know that her daughter is the one missing. Has someone else in Casey's life been reported missing? Whether or not Casey is capable of killing someone else doesn't really factor into the equation, so I'm not sure what's so confusing here.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:51 AM
Of course not, but that's the subject of this thread. There are so many other threads people who are not fence-sitters can discuss on.

Check out the Newbie Thread and you will see that everyone has an opportunity to post on any thread . . . with a title like this thread, no wonder there are so many different opinions . . . sorry seagull, but you will not gain any respect with trying to keep other's opinions out of specific threads . . .

JMHO, though . . . Websleuthing since Laci Peterson Case

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:52 AM
I think it's called bluffing to get her to talk. JMO

I think so too.

OriginalJerseyGirl
09-01-2008, 01:52 AM
One expert on Headline News said if hair just gets into the trunk innocently (like off a toy, coat, blanket or whatever) it will show the same signs of decomposition as hair that was attached to a dead body while decomposing and then fell off.
But the innocent hair wouldn't cause the trunk to smell like a dead body.

Ladytazz
09-01-2008, 01:52 AM
I just want to say one thing. We have lots of evidence (some circumstansal, some scientific) that says that Caylee is dead. Is there any evidence that says she is alive? Because I would really like her to be and I would love to be shown wrong.

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:52 AM
I think you need to re read the post you are complaining about. It contains opinions just like ALL of the posts on this forum.

I have to say the post seemed more like an attack on those who don't want to conform to her beliefs. Maybe I took it wrong.:confused:

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:53 AM
I thought the definition of a fence sitter was one who had not made their mind up either way.......you and a few others are only stating one side, not both.

By definition, are you sitting on the fence?

ETA: sit on the fence
to delay making a decision when you have to choose between two sides in an argument or a competition

Nice . . .

mkath59
09-01-2008, 01:54 AM
I just want to say one thing. We have lots of evidence (some circumstansal, some scientific) that says that Caylee is dead. Is there any evidence that says she is alive? Because I would really like her to be and I would love to be shown wrong.

Yes, Cindy says so

BeanE
09-01-2008, 01:54 AM
This is the thread for fence-sitters, undecideds, who want to be able to discuss all the theories/possibilities, without being harrassed.

I'm sorry. I'm new here. I didn't realize we were allowed to dictate who posts or doesn't in a thread, or what is or isn't posted in a thread.

I also was under the distinct impression that only the admins determined what is or isn't harrassment. Matters not, I certainly wouldn't harrass anyone here.

Thank you for clarifying things for me. I depend on you old-timers to let me know the rules :)

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 01:54 AM
Not always a case of *believing* it or not. Can be a case of denying it. Even consciously. Some people enjoy being contrary. Some people enjoy jerking other people's chains. Some people particularly enjoy it in relation to a charged situation.

Disgusting when that situation is beautiful little 2 year old baby who's dead.

Post in question. I still think it's a little rude. BeanE it's your opinion but it seems a little harsh.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 01:55 AM
I thought the definition of a fence sitter was one who had not made their mind up either way.......you and a few others are only stating one side, not both.

By definition, are you sitting on the fence?

ETA: sit on the fence
to delay making a decision when you have to choose between two sides in an argument or a competition


That's right, this is the fence-sitters thread, for people who are still unsure.
(I've stated that I agree one possibility is that Caylee is no longer alive, even than Casey was involved.)

LiveLoveLaughLiza
09-01-2008, 01:55 AM
Yes, Cindy says so

Are you serious?

*asked in a serious manner*

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:55 AM
This is the thread for fence-sitters, undecideds, who want to be able to discuss all the theories/possibilities, without being harrassed.

Should be the basis of ALL THREADS . . . not just this one . . .

Gram2
09-01-2008, 01:56 AM
I just want to say one thing. We have lots of evidence (some circumstansal, some scientific) that says that Caylee is dead. Is there any evidence that says she is alive? Because I would really like her to be and I would love to be shown wrong.


I would be thrilled if she's alive. I just can't believe that she's dead. So far, they haven't shown that Casey did anything to Caylee.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:57 AM
First let me say that I will post on any thread on this website that I see fit. I have been registered on this site since 2006 and will not bow down to people who have been her for only this case. We are supposed to be able to discuss all possibilities. And that is what I am doing. Don't get upset because I don't agree with you. I understand that this thread is for other theories. The problem with your theory is that it has no factual basis whatsoever. What makes you think that DNA evidence is limited and or debateable. Not one person has said that the sample was degraded. I'm not talking about the sniff test. If you discount the sniff test then fine, but how can you discount the DNA. There is no proof that anything was wrong with the test or the sample.

So what is your limited and debateble evidence?

Cadaver dogs hitting on the trunk
Sniff test saying decomposed body in the car
DNA test saying Caylee decomposed in car
The fact that there is no live Caylee being produced
All of the contradictory statements made by mother
Mother's lack of trying to find or help find Caylee

And with that you believe that she isn't dead? Or is it like an earlier poster said, people just want to be contrary.

You go, girl . . . but I do believe the point is to be obstinate. Cindy, are you here?

Pondering Mind
09-01-2008, 01:57 AM
I think the thread was for those on the fence. I think your mind is already made up. Most seemed to just want to convince others to believe what they believe.

I'm sorry but IMHO it would as though it is your mind is made up...not ON the fence at all. It sounds as if you are doing exactly that, trying to "convince others to believe what you believe" despite the FACTS. It is a very hard thing for all of us to accept the fact that Caylee is dead, I can only imagine how hard it is for the GP. I have lost a child many years ago of SIDS and I somehow convinced myself all the way up until the time that he was embalmed, that he was in a coma or something and would wake up. It was only after that had taken place that I knew he wouldn't wake up, and I was forced to accept the truth that he was gone. At some point denial only prolongs the agony. Sorry, didn't mean for all that to come out, just somehow felt it needed to.

krimekat
09-01-2008, 01:58 AM
I just want to say one thing. We have lots of evidence (some circumstansal, some scientific) that says that Caylee is dead. Is there any evidence that says she is alive? Because I would really like her to be and I would love to be shown wrong.

Ladytazz -- this would be a super thread title!!!

jd_martin
09-01-2008, 02:00 AM
Sometimes I think that even if we had poor Caylee's body recovered and video of Casey killing her that some people will never believe it. I just thought they were all Anthony's.

And this is the quote that BeanE was responding to. Sounds like a generalized response to a generalized statement to me. Didnt hear any name calling. Seems if you took offense then its not the OP's problem.

mkath59
09-01-2008, 02:01 AM
Are you serious?

*asked in a serious manner*

not in the least

MommaShark
09-01-2008, 02:01 AM
I'm sorry but IMHO it would as though it is your mind is made up...not ON the fence at all. It sounds as if you are doing exactly that, trying to "convince others to believe what you believe" despite the FACTS. It is a very hard thing for all of us to accept the fact that Caylee is dead, I can only imagine how hard it is for the GP. I have lost a child many years ago of SIDS and I somehow convinced myself all the way up until the time that he was embalmed, that he was in a coma or something and would wake up. It was only after that had taken place that I knew he wouldn't wake up, and I was forced to accept the truth that he was gone. At some point denial only prolongs the agony. Sorry, didn't mean for all that to come out, just somehow felt it needed to.

My mind can't be made up I don't know the outcome. I just choose to hope she is still alive until proven otherwise. I could care less what anyone else thinks. Just don't argue with me because I choose to wait until I make my decision. She could be dead... She could be alive... Nothing wrong with holding out hope. I am very sory about your loss. Would never wish that on anyone.

nnglas
09-01-2008, 02:01 AM
I'm sorry but IMHO it would as though it is your mind is made up...not ON the fence at all. It sounds as if you are doing exactly that, trying to "convince others to believe what you believe" despite the FACTS. It is a very hard thing for all of us to accept the fact that Caylee is dead, I can only imagine how hard it is for the GP. I have lost a child many years ago of SIDS and I somehow convinced myself all the way up until the time that he was embalmed, that he was in a coma or something and would wake up. It was only after that had taken place that I knew he wouldn't wake up, and I was forced to accept the truth that he was gone. At some point denial only prolongs the agony. Sorry, didn't mean for all that to come out, just somehow felt it needed to.

Pondering, I am so sorry for your loss. I totally agree with you. I too wanted to believe that she is still alive, the facts just don't support it.

Prayers for Caylee.

CHICANA
09-01-2008, 02:03 AM
So even LE won't make the leap yet. Sounds like they are the ones doing a little flip flopping now. Very interesting.

Also interesting that this flip is posted late at night while the Caylee is dead flip comes out prime time. Let's see what tomorrow brings.
I could definitely be wrong, as it does happen every now and then, but I've always thought that the DNA was inconclusive. I think they're bluffing now and releasing a bunch of maybes and not facts. I can't buy the body farm tests showing decomp without a source for the decomp. It there was decomp "air" in the car it stands to reason there was a direct source and I don't think hair is going to cut it.
Even if Caylee wasn't in the car, she could still be dead, but then we'd also know they were basing their investigation on their perceptions and not fact.

seagull65
09-01-2008, 02:05 AM
I'm sorry. I'm new here. I didn't realize we were allowed to dictate who posts or doesn't in a thread, or what is or isn't posted in a thread.

I also was under the distinct impression that only the admins determined what is or isn't harrassment. Matters not, I certainly wouldn't harrass anyone here.

Thank you for clarifying things for me. I depend on you old-timers to let me know the rules :)

That's right, only the admins determine if there has been harrassment, if anyone hassles a thread so much or is continually rude and someone finally pushes the red button.
Obviously no one dictates who posts on a thread, but there is an "on topic" rule, just so the threads remain easy to use.
I am a newbie, too . :) Great site, I'm always amazed at the information I find here.

EastSideOfSaddness
09-01-2008, 02:06 AM
I think it's called bluffing to get her to talk. JMO

Would they really bluff something like this? Gosh, that'd be pretty sick. Anyone know if LE bluffs to media about someone being dead or not?

krimekat
09-01-2008, 02:07 AM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70013

so help us out, seagull -- provide us some of your ideas instead of "trolling".

Looking forward to your posts.

jd_martin
09-01-2008, 02:07 AM
Also interesting that this flip is posted late at night while the Caylee is dead flip comes out prime time. Let's see what tomorrow brings.
I could definitely be wrong, as it does happen every now and then, but I've always thought that the DNA was inconclusive. I think they're bluffing now and releasing a bunch of maybes and not facts. I can't buy the body farm tests showing decomp without a source for the decomp. It there was decomp "air" in the car it stands to reason there was a direct source and I don't think hair is going to cut it.
Even if Caylee wasn't in the car, she could still be dead, but then we'd also know they were basing their investigation on their perceptions and not fact.

They are not basing their results on just a hair. When a body decomposes it releases chemicals into the air. And whatever these chemicals they where testing for have shown up in that trunk. Remember there was a stain in the trunk too.

BeanE
09-01-2008, 02:07 AM
Post in question. I still think it's a little rude. BeanE it's your opinion but it seems a little harsh.

Certainly not intended. Just looking at all sides. Mulling over other perspectives. You know.

DAWN TREADER
09-01-2008, 02:08 AM
I'm sorry but IMHO it would as though it is your mind is made up...not ON the fence at all. It sounds as if you are doing exactly that, trying to "convince others to believe what you believe" despite the FACTS. It is a very hard thing for all of us to accept the fact that Caylee is dead, I can only imagine how hard it is for the GP. I have lost a child many years ago of SIDS and I somehow convinced myself all the way up until the time that he was embalmed, that he was in a coma or something and would wake up. It was only after that had taken place that I knew he wouldn't wake up, and I was forced to accept the truth that he was gone. At some point denial only prolongs the agony. Sorry, didn't mean for all that to come out, just somehow felt it needed to.

For Pondering Mom :rose:

EntreNous
09-01-2008, 02:09 AM
And thank you guys for reading it. I really love the work you're all doing over here. I personally stayed away from this one. I just couldn't bare this case.:(