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blueclouds
03-25-2004, 06:46 PM
Interesting. The BTK Killer? Haven't heard of him. Maybe because he didn't do in 85 people.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040325_1316.html

blueclouds
03-25-2004, 10:43 PM
http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/8274790.htm

http://www.courttv.com/news/2004/0325/btkstrangler_ap.html

Apparently a palm print &/or finger print found on letter, being analyzed and submitted into National database.

Doyle
03-26-2004, 07:19 AM
After 25 years of silence, police have apparently heard again from the BTK Strangler, a serial killer who terrorized the city during the 1970s.

A letter sent last week to The Wichita Eagle contained information on a 1986 killing and included photos that appeared to be of the victim's body. Police are examining the letter for DNA and other evidence.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=10&u=/ap/20040325/ap_on_re_us/btk_strangler

mommyd
03-26-2004, 12:07 PM
I lived in Wichita about 3 years ago. I had no idea that a serial killer lived there until reading about the BTK case at The Crime Library.

I sure hope they can finally catch him. I really have to wonder, if he isn't in jail, has he REALLY stopped killing?

d

blueclouds
03-27-2004, 01:21 PM
Here's another link with further info. Looks like BTK sent pictures of the victims. Undoubtedly THE GUY.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/8269493.htm

blueclouds
03-27-2004, 01:22 PM
After 25 years of silence, police have apparently heard again from the BTK Strangler, a serial killer who terrorized the city during the 1970s.

A letter sent last week to The Wichita Eagle contained information on a 1986 killing and included photos that appeared to be of the victim's body. Police are examining the letter for DNA and other evidence.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=10&u=/ap/20040325/ap_on_re_us/btk_strangler


Hi Doyle, I had started a thread prior to this under "serial killer sends letter 25 years later"

Just wanted to let you know as I know how MODS don't like dual posts.

LvsAMystry
03-27-2004, 09:14 PM
This is definitely an odd one. I've read that police theorize that maybe he's been in jail all this time and only recently got out. This just doesn't seem plausible to me for one reason -- with his letter to the newspaper, he also sent along a photocopy of the victim's drivers license and photos of her deceased body. Where would one keep such items for 25 years without someone else finding them or looking? If he has these things from this victim, then he must have the same sort of things from the others also. I dunno. It also is creepy that he sent this along about a victim they didn't even know had been a victim of this killer, sorta like he wanted to be sure he got credit for that one, too. Classic serial perp it seems.

blueclouds
03-27-2004, 10:32 PM
I DUNNO LVSAMYSTRY, my dad is such a clutter king, he's finding things from my grade 1, 2 & 3 school years lately. That's over 25 years. If he hid items in his parents house, it is possible. OR if he dug a deep hole in a very remote place? Who knows. The question is, why is he choosing now to start writing again and did he stop killing all this time.

blueclouds
03-28-2004, 12:13 AM
A TIMELINE OF BTK Killings

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040327_615.html

Casshew
03-28-2004, 12:43 AM
I saw an A & E special on this BTK murdere with Bill Curtis (love him) a year or so ago.

The one with the children home was especially bad, they had stayed home from school sick that day.

The brother arrived home from school in the afternoon to find his parents both murdered and ran out of the house for help. When the police searched the also found his 9 year old brother dead on the floor of his room and his 11 year old sister hung from a pipe in the basement.

There was semen on the victims and through the house, they found the public telephone lines had been cut.

What a whack job this guy is and he gets off on sending letters to the media. They are going to get him this time!!!

I wonder how old he will be ~ was he in his 20's in the 70's? or in is 30 or 40's? This case is fascinating but they need to find him quick in case he decides to get some more jollies.

SieSie
03-28-2004, 03:07 AM
If anyone knows if there are any books or movies about about this BTK serial killer, please post it here. TIA.

I was too young in the 70's and have never heard of this case before either. Very interesting.

Been reading that police say they hadn't heard from him since like 1979 (?) or something, but if he just sent pictures of a victim murdered in 1986, then we know he wasn't in prison at that time. Maybe he served two sentences, for different things. The first one from 1980 - 1985 (guessing), he gets out on parole and then kills again in 1986. There may be more that we don't know of yet, but perhaps he does something stupid (besides the murder, obviously) and lands himself in jail again, this time for a longer time - and now he's back out again. Anything's possible, I guess.

Doyle
03-28-2004, 08:54 AM
from the crime library...
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/btk/index_1.html?sect=4

SieSie
03-31-2004, 01:04 AM
from the crime library...
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/btk/index_1.html?sect=4

Awesome link, I bookmarked it for further reading. :D Thanks!

Misty
04-28-2004, 10:36 AM
Here's an article highlighting this notorious serial killer -- Bind Them, Torture Them, Kill Them.

http://www.misty.angelcities.com/BTK1.html

Casshew
04-28-2004, 11:00 AM
Hi ya Misty :)

We have a thread going on this in "crimes in the news"... but I think Cold Cases is a better forum for it.

Here is the link http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6149 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6149)

Maybe Doyle can combine the threads...

I wonder if BTK has been in prison all these years?... I hope they crack this case soon.

Misty
04-28-2004, 11:44 AM
Oh darn, sorry, didn't see there was already a thread for this.

Casshew
04-28-2004, 11:48 AM
Oh darn, sorry, didn't see there was already a thread for this.It was not titled so anyone could find it! Anyway, cold cases is a better spot for it.... after 25 years.. it its not cold ~ I don't know what is!

smile22
05-01-2004, 05:03 PM
what if he had a safety deposit box or had someone hide the stuff for him and while he was in jail if he ever was called someone on the phone do they have the payphones tapt? he could have told them to send it out he could have wrote the letter and dated it on the exact day he wanted to send it out years later or he could have been in hiding so that they would forget which they dont and then come back out of hiding and strike again?

BirdieBoo
05-01-2004, 06:52 PM
If you make phone calls from jail you do not have "reasonable expectation of privacy" That means the phones may be tapped.

CaliKid
06-06-2004, 11:04 PM
They did a recent America's Most Wanted on the BTK killer who has recently re-emerged by sending a letter detailing his past crimes and using info only the killer would know. The people of Wichita must be scared to death. I hope LE is following up on all people who have been recently paroled.

Newswolf
06-24-2004, 04:20 PM
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBBFB99VVD.html

"WICHITA, Kan. (AP) - Investigators said Thursday that letters sent to police and a television station appear to be the latest communications from a serial killer who resurfaced this year after more than two decades of silence.
Wichita police received a letter earlier this month describing the 1974 strangulation of four family members - the earliest of eight deaths for which the killer known as the BTK strangler has claimed responsibility.

"We truly feel that he is trying to communicate with us," police Lt. Ken Landwehr said.

The FBI has also confirmed a letter received by Wichita television station KAKE, turned over to police on May 5, is an authentic BTK communication, Landwehr said"

Azlaw
06-24-2004, 06:31 PM
Is anyone familiar with this case? How many murders is he responsible for? Are there any leads or a profile?

aussieblue
06-25-2004, 02:04 PM
Here ya go azlaw,

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/unsolved/btk/index_1.html

The whole story is there.

~aussieblue~

Azlaw
06-25-2004, 06:40 PM
Thanks Aussie

I just read that 6 people on a BTK message board are being looked at as suspects. Here's the message board
http://forums.prospero.com/kr-kansas_news/start

Here is the news article
http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/9008370.htm

aussieblue
06-25-2004, 08:24 PM
Thanks for the links azlaw

I'm now over at that board reading, veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy interesting!!!

~aussieblue~

railbird
06-26-2004, 11:29 AM
Is anyone familiar with this case? How many murders is he responsible for? Are there any leads or a profile?

I had never heard of the BTK killer until a few months ago and if my recollection is correct, they had him responsible for seven killings; then, this past March he sent LE a letter and enclosed were a drivers license and pictures (post mortem) of an eigth victim from 1986.

This is terrifying. Where has this guy been for 20 odd years? Why has he resurfaced? Will he strike again?

VespaElf
06-26-2004, 05:44 PM
That message board is VERY interesting .I cant belive LE thinks BTK might actually be a poster there! OMG! Thats just crazy!!

The whole BTK thing is fascinating-I hope they find him!!!!!

VespaElf
07-23-2004, 01:46 PM
http://courttv.com/news/2004/0723/btkstrangler_ap.html



New BTK communication?

mysteriew
07-26-2004, 09:10 AM
has anyone ever considered that this guy may have been in and out of a mental hospital?
since breaking and entering seem to be a part of this person's pattern, it may be that he was incarcerated for b & e several times. but with the rage he displays it is also possible that he was in mental hosp. in either case he may have been living in a relatives home, and while he was in hosp or prison, his property was just stored. then when he got out, he had access to it again.
or he owned his property. another theory of mine is that he may have married and stopped the killings. then if something happened to the marriage then he killed again.

sontora
08-14-2004, 01:56 AM
Is anyone still researching this case? I would like to discuss this case.

Peekaboo
08-14-2004, 08:10 PM
I've been over at the board mentioned above (where someone said they have suspects) and it is very wierd over there. It looks like the troublemakers are just the usual trolls, but who knows.

Richard
10-30-2004, 10:33 PM
Kansas Serial Killer Resurfaces After 25 Years
By ROXANA HEGEMAN, AP

WICHITA, Kan. (March 27) - More than two decades have passed since a serial killer terrorized Wichita, strangling or stabbing seven victims and bragging about it to the media.

Police hadn't heard a peep from the killer in 25 years - until now.

This past week, a letter arrived at The Wichita Eagle with information on an unsolved 1986 killing, a copy of the victim's driver's license and photos of her slain body.

The letter, apparently from the killer known as the BTK Strangler, sparked increased demand around Wichita for home security systems.

But it also rekindled hope that modern forensic science can find some clue that finally will lead police to a killer most thought was dead or safely locked in prison for some other crime.

"I don't know why he does all of this, but I hope this will be his fatal mistake by resurfacing this way," Dale Fox, whose daughter Nancy was bound and strangled in December 1977, told The Associated Press.

The letter sent to the Eagle was the first clue that the 1986 killing of Vicki Wegerle might have been at the hands of BTK, an acronym the killer used for "bind, torture and kill."

Six of BTK's victims were strangled; one was stabbed to death. Four were members of one family - two children and their parents. Letters claiming responsibility for the slayings were sent to The Wichita Eagle and KAKE-TV.

The serial killer's first letter was found in a textbook at the public library; he went on to send poems and called police with details of Nancy Fox's slaying. In one letter, he taunted: "How about some name for me, it's time: 7 down and many more to go."

Detectives are looking through lists of inmates who have recently been released, in case the reason they had not heard from the BTK Strangler since 1979 is that he was in prison.

The latest missive arrived at the Eagle on March 19. It contained a single sheet of paper with a photocopy of Wegerle's driver's license and three pictures, each showing the victim in a slightly different pose. Relatives said the license was the only thing they know of that was missing from her home.

Police said they had no crime scene photographs of Wegerle's body because it was removed by emergency medical service workers before officers arrived.

Word about the letter leaked Wednesday night, and police confirmed Thursday they had linked it to BTK. Police will not say why they are convinced it came from BTK and the Eagle said it agreed not to publish several of the details in the letter that led police to the conclusion.

By Friday, police had received 365 tips through an anonymous phone line and e-mail address, said Lt. Ken Landwehr, who has worked the case for than 20 years.

At the same time, the number of calls to SecureNet Alarm Systems have increased almost ninefold since the new letter surfaced, public relations director Chuck Hadsell said.

Thousands of home security systems were installed in Wichita in the 1970s because of the BTK killings, and some of those customers want to update their systems, Hadsell said. For one thing, today's systems are triggered if phone lines are cut, a trademark of the BTK killings in the '70s.

The news struck so hard for Dale Fox that he broke down Thursday when film of his daughter's home was shown on television during a news report about BTK. His daughter's body was so bruised when he went to identify it that it was hard to recognize her.

"It was such a brutal murder," said Ruth Fox, Nancy Fox's stepmother. "To brutally murder someone like BTK has done to his victims, I have no mercy for him at all."

At first, the letter that arrived at The Eagle generated little interest.

"We get letters like this all the time, letters that are not news," said police reporter Hurst Laviana, who was assigned to check it out.

Laviana recognized Vicki Wegerle's name. "I kept thinking this isn't the typical crack letter," he said.

Police Capt. Darrell Haynes told him the letter was probably nothing, and he didn't give it to homicide detectives until Laviana reminded him three days later.

On Wednesday, police told Laviana the letter was authentic. It is being processed for fingerprints and DNA evidence, and evidence from the Wegerle homicide is being reprocessed using technology not available in 1986.

The return address on the letter said it was from Bill Thomas Killman - initials BTK. The address appeared to refer to a now-vacant building.

The letter was mailed in Wichita, Landwehr said Thursday. He said it contained no suggestion that the killer planned to strike again.

Wegerle's sister-in-law, Norma Wegerle, said the family often wondered whether BTK could have been involved in the killing.

"We just want it to be solved so we can get closure," she said. "There's hopefulness that somebody might actually be found. We want it to be solved."

Richard
10-30-2004, 10:37 PM
A Timeline of the BTK Killings

A timeline of the killings connected to the serial killer know as the BTK Strangler.

Jan. 15, 1974: Joseph and Julie Otero are strangled in their home along with two of their children, Josephine, 11, and Joseph Jr., 9.

April 4, 1974: Kathryn Bright, 21, is stabbed to death in her home. Police later conclude she was a BTK victim.

October 1974: The Wichita Eagle-Beacon receives a letter from a person claiming to have killed the Oteros, including details of the crime scene only the killer could have known.

March 17, 1977: Shirley Vian, 24, is found tied up and strangled at her house.

Dec. 8, 1977: Nancy Fox, 25, is found tied up and strangled in her home. The killer's voice is captured on tape when he calls a dispatcher to report the crime.

Jan. 31, 1978: A poem, referring to the Vian killing, is sent to The Wichita Eagle-Beacon.

Feb. 10, 1978: A letter from BTK is sent to KAKE-TV claiming responsibility for the deaths of Vian and Fox, as well as another unnamed victim. Police Chief Richard LaMunyon announces a serial killer is at large and has threatened to strike again.

April 28, 1979: BTK waits inside a home, but leaves before the 63-year-old woman who lives there returns. He later sends her a letter letting her know he was there.

Mid-1980s: A new BTK investigation is opened by a group known as "The Ghostbusters," who spend three years employing new techniques such as DNA testing, computer database searches and psychological profiles.

Sept. 16, 1986: Vicki Wegerle, 28, is strangled in her home.

March 19, 2004: A letter arrives at The Wichita Eagle containing a photocopy of Wegerle's driver's license and photos of her body. Police link it to BTK.

Richard
10-30-2004, 11:05 PM
Could the following three Unidentified Jane Does possibly be victims of BTK?

---------------------------------
Unidentified Caucasian Female

Located on November 1, 1980 in Walker County, Texas.
Cause of death was homicide. The girl was tortured, bitten on the back, sexually brutalized and then strangled.
The victim had been dead for six hours before she was found.

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 14 - 16 years old
Approximate Height and Weight: 5'0 - 5'3" (most likely 5'2"); 110 - 120 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Light brown hair past the shoulders, cut in wing fashion. Hazel eyes. A scar was present on her right elbow. Her ears were pierced. Her toenails was painted pink.
Dentals: Her teeth had been well cared for.
Clothing: She was wearing a rectangular-shaped pendant with a smoky blue stone on a gold chain (as seen in the victim's sketch above). She may have been wearing jeans and a yellow shirt. A pair of high-heeled sandals, 3" or 4" inch platforms with light brown straps, had been thrown beside the body.

Case History
The victim had been strangled, tortured and sexually assaulted. Her body was dumped on side of I-45 north, 2 miles north of Huntsville, TX.
The general condition of the body and her overall health and nutrition indicated she had probably come from a middle class home. There were no distinguishing marks or any identification with the body.
When the murder became known through media accounts, several people came forward and said they’d seen a teenager matching her description the day before her body was found.
A witness identified the victim as a girl who had been at the South End Gulf station around 6:30 p.m. Halloween night asking for directions to the Ellis prison unit. She had been wearing blue jeans, a yellow pullover sweater with big pockets that hung below her waist, and she was carrying high-heeled sandals in her hand. To the best of his recollection, she had been let out of a 1973 or ‘74 blue Chevrolet, possibly a Caprice, with a lighter colored top, which was being driven by a white male. She looked disheveled like she had been traveling and perhaps sleeping in her clothes.
She left the station, walking north on Sam Houston avenue. A waitress working at the Hitchin’ Post truck stop out on Interstate 45 said the girl came into the restaurant the same evening and again, asked for directions to the Ellis Unit, saying she had a friend there. A map was drawn for her and she departed. The waitress asked the girl how old she was and the girl responded 19. The witness claimed that was an obvious lie and she then asked her if her parents knew where she was. The young girl replied, "Who cares". The witness then stated she asked her where she was from. The girl replied Aransas Pass/Rockport, TX area. It has not been verified that the girl was the unidentified victim.

If you have any information concerning this young woman's identity, please contact:
Texas Department Of Public Safety 800-346-3243

NCIC Number: U-312231075
The Doe Network: Case File 91UFTX

----------------------------------
Unidentified African-American Female Child

Located on February 28, 1983 in St. Louis, Missouri
Cause of death was homicide; the victim was strangled.

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 8 - 11 years old (DOB circa 1972-75).
Approximate Height and Weight: 4'10"; 70 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: She was well-nourished. She had no scars, deformities or irregularities. Medium complexion.
Clothing: She was wearing a yellow v-necked sweater and 2 coats of red fingernail polish.

Case History
The victim was located in a vacant apartment building on Clemens Avenue in St. Louis, Missouri on February 28, 1983. Two men who were in the basement of the building discovered the young girl. She was lying face-down in the furnace room with her hands tied behind her back with red and white nylon rope. The victim had been sexually assaulted prior to being strangled, which was the cause of her death.
The victim's head had been removed with a large-bladed knife after her death. Her head has never been discovered. She had been killed elsewhere and brought to the vacant building after her death.
There were no signs of previous abuse on the victim's body. There was no specific features that would give clues as to her identity.
The St. Louis authorities have conducted extensive investigations into the victim's identity since 1983 and have received no clear leads. Her murderer(s) remain unknown, although several suspects have been under investigation. No arrests have been made in the case.

If you have any information concerning this young girl's identity or the circumstances surrounding her homicide, please contact: St. Louis Police Department, Detective Thomas Carroll 314-444-5371

NCIC Number: U-470002710
The Doe Network: Case File 54UFMO

-------------------------------
Unidentified Caucasian Female
Summerfield Jane Doe

Discovered on September 6, 1986 outside Summerfield, Saint Clair County, Illinois.
The victim had been strangled with a piece of her clothing.
The victim was located within 24 hours of death.

Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 16-21 years old. Estimated date of birth is 1960-1967.
Approximate Height and Weight: 4'11"; 110 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Curly brown hair; brown eyes. She had a mole on her upper left arm, a small scar on her left shoulder and a scar on the back of her right wrist (possibly from a burn). Small stature, wore children's size clothing.
Dentals: The victim had good oral hygiene with no stain or calculus. She had endodontic treatment in #9 at age 10-12 (early to mid 1970s); lateral incisor endodontics several years later and fabrication of 3-unit FPD; and loss of tooth #30 at very young age, with subsequent good alignment of #29 and #31 (only a 1mm diastema). Other oral findings include: both bridge abutments (maxillary left central and right lateral) had endodontic therapy, the right lateral has a Para Post build up; and right maxillary and left mandibular molars are only partially erupted. Occlusal amalgams have been placed on the maxillary right first bicuspid; the first and second molar and the left second molar; a mesio-occlusal on the left first molar; and occlusal fillings on the mandibular right second molar and left first and second molars. There are proximal mesial caries on the maxillary left first molar, distal of the mandibular first molar and mesial of the second molar. The presence or absence of #16 is unknown; endodontic treatment of #9 is wide fill; endodontic treatment of lateral incisor (#7) is not wide fill; fixed partial denture does not exhibit an access opening (probably fabricated after treatment of lateral incisor; timing of loss of #8 is unknown; alloy radiopacity suggests a base metal substructure; and when viewed from the occlusal, #4 is rotated clockwise. A base was placed under amalgams on #2, 3, 5, 18 and 31 that appears to be zinc phosphate or cement of similar radiopacity. Size of caries on #14, 15, 18 and 19 suggest the victim did not receive active dental treatment for several years prior to her death.
Clothing: She was wearing a salmon-colored bodysuit. She had a gold bracelet on her right wrist. A silver band ring with a clear stone in the middle and an a plain silver band were both worn on her right hand. On her left hand ring finger she wore an opal ring that had 4 opals with a clear stone center. Assorted clothing and jewelry she had been carrying in a travel bag was found at the scene.

Case History
The victim was found by a farmer harvesting corn just outside Summerfield. She had been strangled with a piece of her clothing, and her nude body was left in the cornfield.
Her pelvic area had been savagely slashed and mutilated by a killer who left behind relatively small, Western-style boot prints.
Investigators received a telephone call in August 2002, from a man who described a recent conversation with an acquaintance, a small-time burglar, who in 1986 lived in Summerfield. The caller said his acquaintance talked about killing a young woman and leaving her body in a field near Summerfield. The suspect is in state prison on an unrelated charge.
In 2001, investigators were contacted by a psychic who claimed that the victim came from North Carolina, but a probe of certain landmarks provided by the psychic led nowhere.
Another lead is that the victim may have been a follower of the rock band The Grateful Dead, and was in the metro-east because she was hitchhiking to the band's next concert.

If you have any information on the identity of this woman or the circumstances involved in her murder, please contact: St. Clair County Sheriff's Office,
618-277-3504

NCIC Number: U-214712509
The Doe Network: Case File 11UFIL

Dark Knight
10-31-2004, 08:11 AM
Unidentified Caucasian Female
Summerfield Jane Doe

Discovered on September 6, 1986 outside Summerfield, Saint Clair County, Illinois.
The victim had been strangled with a piece of her clothing.
The victim was located within 24 hours of death.

Investigators received a telephone call in August 2002, from a man who described a recent conversation with an acquaintance, a small-time burglar, who in 1986 lived in Summerfield. The caller said his acquaintance talked about killing a young woman and leaving her body in a field near Summerfield. The suspect is in state prison on an unrelated charge.

If you have any information on the identity of this woman or the circumstances involved in her murder, please contact: St. Clair County Sheriff's Office,
618-277-3504

NCIC Number: U-214712509
The Doe Network: Case File 11UFILWas the tip in 2002 ever followed up on?? Sounds like a good tip, but it's now been 2 years since then.

Also sounds like the truck driver serial killer who I believe was involved in my 1999 Unsolved Murder thread in this forum.

Dark Knight
03-07-2005, 01:45 AM
WICHITA -- The signs that he was tightly wound were there for many to see. He signaled his powerful need for control again and again, but even the people who say he bullied them had no inkling that he could be the man police are now calling a serial killer.

More: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20050306/ts_washpost/a10360_2005mar5 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20050306/ts_washpost/a10360_2005mar5)

Dark Knight
03-07-2005, 02:00 AM
PS: Pastor Clark needs to stop talking to the media and keep his thoughts to himself, for the sake of the victim's families, at least. Yes, we are all sinners and will be judged, but we are not all charged with 10 murders with torture. Just keep it to yourself, Pastor, and don't look at this like an opportunity to become famous. I defended his visiting him and his initial reasoning, but his public comments are pushing it with me.

Glad to see some others are now coming out and saying how evil this guy was acting in his everyday life. His harassing the woman dying of cancer for not mowing her lawn is disgusting!!!!

SieSie
03-07-2005, 02:07 AM
Margaret Farmer said her daughter's garage burned down a few years ago, and within a day Rader was demanding she pay to have the debris hauled off. "I don't know anyone on the street that didn't despise him," she said. "He acted like his word was the only law. Everyone else was supposed to do exactly as he said and when he said."
Source: Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20050306/ts_washpost/a10360_2005mar5)


"He nitpicked people to death. He was a total control freak," said Dee Stuart, a mayoral candidate in nearby Park City, where Rader lived.
Stuart said a friend of hers, whom she declined to identify, worked with Rader, a Park City compliance officer, and "filed grievance after grievance" against him. "She suffered through a constant barrage of belittling attacks from him," Stuart said. "No one was as smart as Dennis Rader."
Source: Yahoo News (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20050306/ts_washpost/a10360_2005mar5)

Very interesting how he could lead such a double life, and it makes you wonder why he was nice to some people and not others. He is one sick and evil person, that's for sure!

Verity
03-07-2005, 02:46 AM
PS: Just keep it to yourself, Pastor, and don't look at this like an opportunity to become famous.
Exactly right. Who is his boss?

Verity

Dark Knight
03-07-2005, 02:49 AM
Exactly right. Who is his boss?

Verity
God? lol!

Verity
03-07-2005, 03:07 AM
God? lol!
Yeah, right...lol

I meant something like this: http://www.lutheranworld.org/

Having read that Paula Rader was a founder of this Church, I was wondering whether it is an autonomous 501 (c) 3 non-profit, or part of a larger group.

Verity

Dark Knight
03-07-2005, 03:11 AM
Yeah, right...lol

I meant something like this: http://www.lutheranworld.org/

Having read that Paula Rader was a founder of this Church, I was wondering whether it is an autonomous 501 (c) 3 non-profit, or part of a larger group.

Verity
Interesting point about his wife being a founder of the church.

blueclouds
03-07-2005, 03:19 AM
PS: Pastor Clark needs to stop talking to the media and keep his thoughts to himself, for the sake of the victim's families, at least. Yes, we are all sinners and will be judged, but we are not all charged with 10 murders with torture. Just keep it to yourself, Pastor, and don't look at this like an opportunity to become famous. I defended his visiting him and his initial reasoning, but his public comments are pushing it with me.

Glad to see some others are now coming out and saying how evil this guy was acting in his everyday life. His harassing the woman dying of cancer for not mowing her lawn is disgusting!!!!
Thank you for that DK..... he does need to keep it between him and his parishoners IF they choose to talk about it.

There's CHRIST LIKE and there's a line even with that. CHRIST never shoved anything down the masses............he was always very gentle with his teachings.

Dark Knight
03-07-2005, 03:29 AM
Thank you for that DK..... he does need to keep it between him and his parishoners IF they choose to talk about it.

There's CHRIST LIKE and there's a line even with that. CHRIST never shoved anything down the masses............he was always very gentle with his teachings.
There is nothing wrong with being a good Witness by example, and by defending his actions, but he doesn't seem to be thinking of the repercussions of his public comments, sometimes, I guess.

txsvicki
03-07-2005, 03:39 AM
There is nothing wrong with being a good Witness by example, and by defending his actions, but he doesn't seem to be thinking of the repercussions of his public comments, sometimes, I guess.


I said it on another thread, but what if he is thinking and it's planned to get a lot of good things said out there so that any jury might be influenced. Also, I wonder how many people might have called the tip line about Rader, even if just for revenge. He did fit the profile that people put out in many ways.

KatzHome
03-07-2005, 09:46 AM
Very interesting how he could lead such a double life, and it makes you wonder why he was nice to some people and not others. He is one sick and evil person, that's for sure!
Simple ~ it's how every nasty, evil, mean spirited person manages to survive ~ the coward sucks up to those in a position of authority, and only bullies those he knows he can get away with doing it to. To everyone else, he's neutral until he has decided for certain which category to place them in. Freakin unbelievable that a woman filed multiple harassment charges against him ~ and still nothing was done. Actually, not all that hard to believe... Look around your workplace ~ all too often there is someone just like him, who manages to fly just under the radar of management.


I said it on another thread, but what if he is thinking and it's planned to get a lot of good things said out there so that any jury might be influenced. Also, I wonder how many people might have called the tip line about Rader, even if just for revenge. He did fit the profile that people put out in many ways.
I don't see what effect "influencing the jury" could have. DNA can prove this guy is the killer ~ I've read that he's confessed ~ this guy will die in prison. And that is too good of an ending for him.

I've heard about the poor cows that have been dying on their feet from exhaustion because the fields are too wet for them to lie down. The fields can't be drained because of the manure. It got me to thinking that there should be special prison cells for a guy like this. He should be placed in a 4'x4'x7' cement block hole and fed through a slot in the wall. And let him sit or stand in his own excrement until he finally dies.

ariel7
03-07-2005, 05:10 PM
PS: Pastor Clark needs to stop talking to the media and keep his thoughts to himself, for the sake of the victim's families, at least. Yes, we are all sinners and will be judged, but we are not all charged with 10 murders with torture. Just keep it to yourself, Pastor, and don't look at this like an opportunity to become famous. I defended his visiting him and his initial reasoning, but his public comments are pushing it with me.

Glad to see some others are now coming out and saying how evil this guy was acting in his everyday life. His harassing the woman dying of cancer for not mowing her lawn is disgusting!!!!

I Totally Agree.

And the comment he made about Rader still being part of the Body of Christ!
Disgusting!
God says we SHALL know them by their fruits...the fruits of this man
are corrupt. Depraved. Also, scripture says that no murderer hath eternal
life... Doesn't mean God can't save repentant murderers...of course he
can---there is nothing impossible with Him! But, D. Raders actions show him for what he is---a predator of the worst degree---truly a wolf among lambs. Even if they
link NO recent murders to him...just the taunting of the police and public lately is the sign of an unbroken, rebellious spirit. Imo.

mysteriew
03-07-2005, 07:35 PM
Dennis Rader is at least two strangely separate people. Maybe three. He's a Mr. Good Guy. Most of the people who knew him from boyhood, and Boy Scouts and Christ Lutheran Church knew him as a diligent and considerate friend.

He's also a Mr. Bad Guy.

As the Park City compliance officer, he harassed people frequently, some say.

He might also be something else, if police are right -- if he is the BTK serial strangler.

A trial or guilty plea will tell us that someday.

For now, the story of Mr. Good and Mr. Bad is strange enough.


http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/btk/11062626.htm

excellent article on the many faces of Dennis Rader/BTK

cecilia
03-07-2005, 07:43 PM
I Totally Agree.

And the comment he made about Rader still being part of the Body of Christ!
Disgusting!
God says we SHALL know them by their fruits...the fruits of this man
are corrupt. Depraved. Also, scripture says that no murderer hath eternal
life... Doesn't mean God can't save repentant murderers...of course he
can---there is nothing impossible with Him! But, D. Raders actions show him for what he is---a predator of the worst degree---truly a wolf among lambs. Even if they
link NO recent murders to him...just the taunting of the police and public lately is the sign of an unbroken, rebellious spirit. Imo.

Seems like a more mature pastor might not be so glib with the press -- it's such a hideous thing and caused so much suffering. If DR has confessed to LE and to the minister, not much is left to be said except to counsel DR to accept his sentence and see the consequences through -- God alone knows the rest.

mysteriew
03-07-2005, 07:46 PM
Thirty-one years after the first BTK attacks, Dennis Rader, 60, was charged last week with 10 counts of first-degree murder. Paula had been envied by women at her church for the way her husband doted on her, helping with her coat and always opening the car door. The possibility that her husband of 34 years might be BTK has left her "in quite a lot of shock," says Brent Lathrop, a friend of hers since elementary school and co-owner of the Snacks convenience store, where Paula has worked as a bookkeeper since 1985. She is not alone in her distress. Any sense of righteous satisfaction that a brutal killer might be off the streets came with questions about how Rader—a former scout leader, a pillar of his church, a devoted husband and dad—allegedly could be so skillful at leading a double life.....................................
The discovery process has just begun, and Rader is not scheduled to appear in court until March 15. In the meantime, he has to try to get used to prison food. One night at dinner, he found a pebble in his potatoes and told his lawyers that he considered it "extra protein."

His only regular human contact, apart from his lawyers and the prison guards, is with the characters of the book he is reading. It is a detective novel.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1034672-3,00.html

Ghostwheel
03-07-2005, 09:28 PM
Lots of possibilities here. Multiple personalities for one. Sociopath for another.

Hoping this doesn't come out wrong, but I've known many a person who I would call sociopathic whose only way to stay in line was through a church or religion of some sort. It was truly a crutch for them to get through life, like if they didn't have this set of rules to follow, they would just do anything and not care. Might account for his different behavior in the church?

luvbeaches
03-07-2005, 09:40 PM
I also believe the church minister needs to give it a rest. Up until I was in high school, I attended school with a gal named Rader (in Kansas). I wonder if it's any relation.

concernedperson
03-07-2005, 10:11 PM
He is damaging his congregation at this point. No one can be compared with BTK and come out as a good christian.

cecilia
03-07-2005, 10:50 PM
Lots of possibilities here. Multiple personalities for one. Sociopath for another.

Hoping this doesn't come out wrong, but I've known many a person who I would call sociopathic whose only way to stay in line was through a church or religion of some sort. It was truly a crutch for them to get through life, like if they didn't have this set of rules to follow, they would just do anything and not care. Might account for his different behavior in the church?

It's all about fooling people and making a persona -- sociopaths aren't under control, IMO, while in church - they follow their own rules ONLY, but they recognize a good cover when they see it and they'll use anything and anybody -- I've known (personally unfortunately) a pedophile and a murderer who were deacons, high profile, perfect attendance, etc., who when arrested used their church affiliation as a way to help their defense. They're also pretty successful at manipulating kind hearted sympathetic people, ministers included.
Although I think DR is likely to confess and go quietly rather than fight a really losing battle...

txsvicki
03-08-2005, 04:17 AM
Simple ~ it's how every nasty, evil, mean spirited person manages to survive ~ the coward sucks up to those in a position of authority, and only bullies those he knows he can get away with doing it to. To everyone else, he's neutral until he has decided for certain which category to place them in. Freakin unbelievable that a woman filed multiple harassment charges against him ~ and still nothing was done. Actually, not all that hard to believe... Look around your workplace ~ all too often there is someone just like him, who manages to fly just under the radar of management.


I don't see what effect "influencing the jury" could have. DNA can prove this guy is the killer ~ I've read that he's confessed ~ this guy will die in prison. And that is too good of an ending for him.

I've heard about the poor cows that have been dying on their feet from exhaustion because the fields are too wet for them to lie down. The fields can't be drained because of the manure. It got me to thinking that there should be special prison cells for a guy like this. He should be placed in a 4'x4'x7' cement block hole and fed through a slot in the wall. And let him sit or stand in his own excrement until he finally dies.


I know that it probably won't work, but they may be planning to claim that rader has multiple personality disorder and didn't know what he had done until the next day just like he said in the letter. This may be why he wants "to run his planned statement by his family first". He could be manipulating the preacher and planning on manipulating what his family, especially wife, tells about him. Raders only shot at anything less than prison would be a mental institution, maybe possible escape, who knows. He and his lawyers have nothing to lose.

KatzHome
03-08-2005, 04:34 AM
It's looking like you're right, Vicki ~ they're cooking up some sort of defense ~ Newsie posted an article ~ Unable to find someone to identify him now... DNA not always reliable...

I'm not buying his "the devil made me do it" defense ~ "the monster inside me" ~ or the "it was one of my multiple personalities" that did it ~ not me... THINK: What about the locked shed ~ why didn't one of the other personalities notify the authorities about "trophies" he kept there?

This "man" is despicable.

Dark Knight
03-08-2005, 05:28 AM
I Totally Agree.

And the comment he made about Rader still being part of the Body of Christ!

All Christians are part of The Body of Christ, in different ways. I think the Pastor is assuming that Rader's Christian beliefs and practices are legit, and not an act, so therefore he is just another sinning member of The Body. Perhaps Rader confessed his sins to the Pastor in jail, too, which would lead the Pastor to believe these things. If he is confessing to LE, why wouldn't he confess to the Pastor?

mysteriew
03-08-2005, 06:53 AM
http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/1343627.html

“He’s got the nerve to give everybody a thumbs up, like he was proud of something and everybody was just ‘booing’ him,” he said. “Of course they weren’t going to let him in the cells with us. So, they had him in processing about an hour and then he finally came out and gave everybody a thumbs up again as he left.”



An inmates view of BTK

Dark Knight
03-08-2005, 07:04 AM
http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/1343627.html

“He’s got the nerve to give everybody a thumbs up, like he was proud of something and everybody was just ‘booing’ him,” he said. “Of course they weren’t going to let him in the cells with us. So, they had him in processing about an hour and then he finally came out and gave everybody a thumbs up again as he left.”



An inmates view of BTK
Thanks, mysteriew! This was interesting:

Many people have asked us about how tall Rader is. David said he’s short, 5’4” or 5’5”, stocky, chubby and not in shape.

Lotta people who are short have control issues or anger issues. Napoleon Complex, or whatever. The stare and thumbs up comments are also quite odd.

peggy
03-08-2005, 10:11 AM
Thanks, mysteriew! This was interesting:

Many people have asked us about how tall Rader is. David said he’s short, 5’4” or 5’5”, stocky, chubby and not in shape.

Lotta people who are short have control issues or anger issues. Napoleon Complex, or whatever. The stare and thumbs up comments are also quite odd.

Yes, his height really surprised me, thought he was about 6 feet, don't know why. Heard that also about short people (or is it just men) have a complex.

KatzHome
03-08-2005, 12:16 PM
That gun helped make him a "big man"

mysteriew
04-10-2005, 08:22 PM
Stone says there's an adage in her field: Not all psychopaths are serial killers, but all serial killers are psychopaths. While psychopaths as serial killers are a relatively rare phenomenon, there are people functioning in society who exhibit various degrees of psychopathic behavior in their daily lives, she said.

Psychopaths demonstrate antisocial behavior and an aggressive narcissism -- they use people through charm, intimidation or violence, she said.

"They have a parasitic lifestyle -- they live off people. Their whole mindset is domination over other people," she said. "Psychopaths are not necessarily criminal in their activities, but they are attracted to positions of power. In the corporate world, there are examples of psychopathic behavior where people use up their employees' life savings with no genuine concern about it. They have no anxiety about their behavior.

"Psychopaths see themselves as wronged. They can be paranoid, feel persecuted, feel a need for revenge. They harbor a lot of persecutory beliefs."

There also is a lot of thrill-seeking with psychopathic behavior, Stone said. Over time, there will be an escalation of their behavior because they've gotten sensitized to a certain act, but then have to "up the ante" to capture the thrill they seek, she said.

That may be the case with the alleged BTK Killer, who resurfaced with letters to the media after not being heard from in a while, Stone said.

"Psychopaths have a need for recognition, not just a need for attention," she said. "They have a sense of being invincible, of 'I can outsmart you.' They're taken in by their own narcissism. It's almost like a game."

Serial killers often take "souvenirs" from their victims -- a picture, jewelry, lock of hair -- to remind them later, Stone said. "They want to keep that image, the fantasy of that control going," she said.

"It's a misnomer to think that if we saw a psychopath, he would look odd. Often, that's not the case," she said. "A psychopathic individual can be a chameleon and learn to act a certain way. That advances their opportunity to engage in certain behaviors because who would suspect?"

Often, people think that childhood abuse can create psychopathy in adults, Stone said. Childhood trauma certainly can aggravate psychopathic tendencies, but it's not a cause-effect relationship, she said. Research over the last 10-15 years is supporting the notion that psychopathy is related to a genotype, she said.

Psychopaths also differ in that their intellectual and emotional understanding of things don't match. Stone said psychologist Robert Hare has a saying for this condition: Psychopaths know the words but don't know the music when it comes to emotions.

"They know intellectually what it is to be sad, but their empathy and regard for other people is not there," Stone said. "They can mimic the feeling, but they really can't put words to how they feel because they don't have that internal experience."

There is no known treatment for psychopaths; rather, behavior management is the course of action, Stone said. Psychopaths don't say, "I need help" because they see others as the cause of their problems; they don't have anxiety to prohibit their behavior, she said.

And studies have shown that group therapy not only doesn't work for psychopaths, it makes their behavior worse, Stone said. They use the therapy setting as practice for manipulating people.

One percent of the general population in the United States meets the criteria for psychopaths, Stone said. But the percentage is 15-20 percent in prisons because of the criminal activity psychopaths often engage in.

http://www.news-star.com/stories/041005/New_56.shtml

LazyCat08
04-10-2005, 08:34 PM
So scary!
I swear - I'm not even saying this to be mean.

When I read profiles of Scott Peterson, I realized that I was dating someone with psychotic personality traits!
Especially when it comes to the manipulative controlling behavior and the absence of emotions....
Don't need to explain why I'm not with him anymore, huh?:loser:

He tried to get me to move across the country and marry him - yeah - all I could think was ... I'm going to end up one of these wives murdered by her husband.....

Jack
04-12-2005, 11:05 PM
Thanks, mysteriew! This was interesting:

Many people have asked us about how tall Rader is. David said he’s short, 5’4” or 5’5”, stocky, chubby and not in shape.

Lotta people who are short have control issues or anger issues. Napoleon Complex, or whatever. The stare and thumbs up comments are also quite odd.


I read that the jails booking documents have his height listed at 5'11" and 195 lbs.

cecilia
04-12-2005, 11:27 PM
So scary!
I swear - I'm not even saying this to be mean.

When I read profiles of Scott Peterson, I realized that I was dating someone with psychotic personality traits!
Especially when it comes to the manipulative controlling behavior and the absence of emotions....
Don't need to explain why I'm not with him anymore, huh?:loser:

He tried to get me to move across the country and marry him - yeah - all I could think was ... I'm going to end up one of these wives murdered by her husband.....


Join the club :)
Your guy wasn't in Seattle was he?
Maybe we need some kind of virtual bulletin board to out these guys...

mysteriew
08-20-2005, 12:49 PM
The serial killer told her the draft was for a college class, according to court records. She didn't suspect him of being BTK, authorities say.

Once, years ago, Paula Rader, the wife of Dennis Rader, became scared when she found a draft of a disturbing poem in their home. It was about Shirley Vian Relford, a young mother strangled in 1977.

And right before her husband's arrest this past February, she told him he spelled "just like BTK."

That's part of what Rader told investigators about his wife after they arrested him, according to a 92-page court document filed by prosecutors Thursday. It details Rader's crimes and interviews with investigators after his arrest.

But authorities said Friday that there's no indication Paula Rader knew her husband was BTK.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/12431373.htm

concernedperson
08-20-2005, 01:05 PM
Thanks for that link. It was very revealing to me and showed how Rader set boundaries for his family..."his closet"...."his classes". It also showed he would have preferred to be a lone wolf but needed that mask of a family for his purposes.

Mrs. Rader was disturbed when she found the poem but he reconciled that for her and then later she mentioned he spelled just like BTK. I will bet deep in the recesses of her mind something was starting to jive but she must of thought herself horrible to even think that way. A form of denial.

The most chilling thing is that he had another victim lined up and if it hadn't been for road work she might not be alive now.He had it rescheduled for spring or fall of 05.....he did have a lot of patience and will to carry this "projects" through fruition. Plodding and relentless!!! So scary...

mysteriew
08-20-2005, 01:30 PM
In another article I read that he had already assigned a date to his next "project". It was in Oct. 2005. I think it was either the 24th or the 25th.

Chanler
08-20-2005, 03:03 PM
In another article I read that he had already assigned a date to his next "project". It was in Oct. 2005. I think it was either the 24th or the 25th.First of all, thanks so much, mysteriew, for all your discoveries and insights about this case.

I think that wives often manifest major league denial when they stumble on indications that their hubby might have a secret life. A social worker once told me that wives were much more likely to side with their husbands rather than accept their child's account of sexual abuse. And, without demeaning Mrs. Rader, I suspect that a woman who married a very formal, regimented person like DR would inclined to accept their version of almost anything.

spygirl
08-20-2005, 03:11 PM
Mrs. Rader was disturbed when she found the poem but he reconciled that for her and then later she mentioned he spelled just like BTK. I will bet deep in the recesses of her mind something was starting to jive but she must of thought herself horrible to even think that way. A form of denial.This is how I see it too, CP. Wouldn't something like that linger in the back of your mind forever? What about the murders which became public after Vian's, when hubby wasn't home while they were committed? Weren't some of his taunts and letters to LE made public? Certainly if she had seen them in the paper, she would have recognized his writing.

That's really weird. Gosh, I hope that she was just blissfully ignorant to all of this.

mysteriew
08-20-2005, 03:18 PM
This is how I see it too, CP. Wouldn't something like that linger in the back of your mind forever? What about the murders which became public after Vian's, when hubby wasn't home while they were committed? Weren't some of his taunts and letters to LE made public? Certainly if she had seen them in the paper, she would have recognized his writing.

That's really weird. Gosh, I hope that she was just blissfully ignorant to all of this.

She told him shortly before his arrest that he spelled just like BTK. But he presented such an "upright" image that I think she just didn't connect the dots. He had reasonable reasons for being out at those times. He used his church and scout activities to cover his absences. It is even speculated that the majority of the murders that took place during the day, were because that was time that he was supposedly accounted for. Even the night he spent at the church taking pictures of his victim- he was at a scout campout and sneaked out.

spygirl
08-20-2005, 03:31 PM
She told him shortly before his arrest that he spelled just like BTK. But he presented such an "upright" image that I think she just didn't connect the dots. He had reasonable reasons for being out at those times. He used his church and scout activities to cover his absences. It is even speculated that the majority of the murders that took place during the day, were because that was time that he was supposedly accounted for. Even the night he spent at the church taking pictures of his victim- he was at a scout campout and sneaked out.True; especially because he said the poem was part of a (criminal justice?) class he was taking. I wonder if they had discussed any of the other murders after they occurred. I wonder if he expressed any faux concern for his wife's safety after he murdered the woman down the street. Wasn't she the one he hid in the church basement after sneaking away from the scout campout? Marine Hedge, I think was her name.

spygirl
08-20-2005, 04:17 PM
I wanted to add, also, that any woman who has posted or read at crime sleuthing websites for a reasonable length of time, is naturally suspicious! So, in that respect, Mrs. Rader wouldn't be like us.

My dad was a lot like Rader.... ruled his home with an *iron fist* so to speak, never to be questioned. No one dared create any ripples in his pond. So I can understand Mrs. R's hesitancy to go through his things. He had to be exceptionally organized, so that anything she needed to look for, such as important papers, would be in an accessible place where she wouldn't need to rummage around.

Some women stay with men like that. It's hard to understand though, him being the sociopath he is. He doesn't strike me as being a warm, sensitive individual, even behind closed doors. 30 years she spent with him! Wow. Talk about tenacity.

I hope she can move on after all of this. I wonder if she will ever trust another man again, enough to become intimate. I hope that she will go public with her story. This has to be so hard on her, with so many skeptics scrutinizing her life with him. Did she work outside the home? If not, that presents a whole new set of challenges, especially for a woman accustomed to a certain lifestyle before all of this. I hope her kids are able to regain some semblance of normalcy.

I'm sure the community will be supportive of whatever efforts she makes to put this behind her, though in reality, she never, ever will be able to in full.

I'm glad that this forum doesn't attract a whole lot of attention, because it's just what he would have wanted. I watched most of Wednesday and Thursday's sentencing. He has such soulless eyes. Pits of emptiness.

concernedperson
08-20-2005, 04:27 PM
Spygirl, Mrs. Rader did work. I believe she did bookkeeping for a grocery store, if I am not mistaken she was working at his arrest time. She did not go back to work,however.

Greta's blog today mentions how she would love to interview Mrs. Rader. I would like to hear her take on it too but not until she is good and ready and for it benefit her.

ETA Greta's blog.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166216,00.html

Maybe So
08-20-2005, 05:32 PM
I don't know. Don't want to point fingers but the more I hear the more I think that his wife had an inkling....but just couldn't believe it was true. Too bad she wasn't curious enough to dig a little deeper into his secret places and absenses from home a little bit more. Of course perhaps she would have become his next project if she had said anything further to him than she already had.

If she had even bothered to compare his spelling to BTKs then I think she had some sort of suspicion in her mind. Perhaps if she had thought back she would have realized that he was away from the house at the time of every murder.

Certainly she was not convinced or she surely could not have fallen asleep at night knowing she was laying next to a monster.

I do feel sorry for her though...thinking back to being married to him and sleeping next to him must now be so repulsive.

Chanler
08-20-2005, 06:59 PM
I think that the murder incidents were infrequent; just seven events with ghastly consequences. We're all news junkies, so we probably have an exaggerated sense of how closely average people are following these cases. Most of us accept the essential honesty of the people we spend time with; we've all heard of stories of spouses being blindsided by the discovery that their husband or wife is having an affair. A woman I met was married to a pilot moonlighting as a drug smuggler; she had no inkling of his double life until his plane crashed with all the evidence aboard.


Similarly, the comment about Rader's spelling resembling BTKs is fascinating, but not suspicious, I think. Rader's transposition of letters is shared by a sizeable portion of the population. Apparently, she didn't recognize the handwriting.

Rader's notes and his bizarre final speech raise a fascinating point. Even if one disregards Rader's other proclivities and deeds, his brain circuitry is a mess. I'm not talking about his belief system, I'm talking about the way he forms even simple sentences and connects thoughts. Even though he had been preparing his "emotional" speech for weeks and spoke from notes, his monologue reads like the meanderings of somebody with a brain injury, not a college graduate. I wonder whether he has always been this way or whether his mental condition is degenerating.

concernedperson
08-20-2005, 07:37 PM
I think that the murder incidents were infrequent; just seven events with ghastly consequences. We're all news junkies, so we probably have an exaggerated sense of how closely average people are following these cases. Most of us accept the essential honesty of the people we spend time with; we've all heard of stories of spouses being blindsided by the discovery that their husband or wife is having an affair. A woman I met was married to a pilot moonlighting as a drug smuggler; she had no inkling of his double life until his plane crashed with all the evidence aboard.


Similarly, the comment about Rader's spelling resembling BTKs is fascinating, but not suspicious, I think. Rader's transposition of letters is shared by a sizeable portion of the population. Apparently, she didn't recognize the handwriting.

Rader's notes and his bizarre final speech raise a fascinating point. Even if one disregards Rader's other proclivities and deeds, his brain circuitry is a mess. I'm not talking about his belief system, I'm talking about the way he forms even simple sentences and connects thoughts. Even though he had been preparing his "emotional" speech for weeks and spoke from notes, his monologue reads like the meanderings of somebody with a brain injury, not a college graduate. I wonder whether he has always been this way or whether his mental condition is degenerating.

Yes, your observations are correct. He is experiencing some kind of burn out. The energy it took for years and years to keep up the facade and now to turn to meanderings is significant. Maybe he recognized the shortcomings and felt his lifes work was going to be diminished but he is on the decline.

I am seeing the same thing with my brother. I am 100% positive he is sociopath. He has been institutionalized earlier in June but I can't find him now. The system allows for anonymity.

These sociopaths can only run on regular for so long.

mysteriew
08-20-2005, 09:31 PM
Unless a wife is faced with concrete proof, she won't suspect the husband. Look at all the husbands who have affairs and wife is oblivious. To Rader that home image he presented was essential. Essential to his freedom and his fantasies. And to his personal image of perfect family.
What Paula saw, she probably looked at as quirks of his behavior. He liked his own space and didn't like anyone messing with his things. He kept it clean and organized, so she left it alone. She found the poem, but he had an excuse for it. Working on something for class- weird, but not alarming. He spelled like BTK (I actually wonder if that wasn't said jokingly). A lot of people can't spell. He went to work and church and scouting activities (with his son). A lot of men do. Nothing alarming there.
I'm sure she is probably kicking herself now, wondering about everything that was said and done since she had met him. Wondering why she didn't know. Looking back now, she may even see some things that were questionable. But really, if there is a serial in your city- would you be analyzing your hubby's behavior in comparision? A man you know, have kids with, argue with, eat with, sleep with? And those behaviors would be spread out over a number of years. Very slight hints, but nothing concrete vs. a man she thinks she knows very well.

spygirl
08-20-2005, 10:48 PM
Spygirl, Mrs. Rader did work. I believe she did bookkeeping for a grocery store, if I am not mistaken she was working at his arrest time. She did not go back to work,however.

Greta's blog today mentions how she would love to interview Mrs. Rader. I would like to hear her take on it too but not until she is good and ready and for it benefit her.

ETA Greta's blog.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166216,00.htmlTy, CP! ;)

concernedperson
08-20-2005, 10:53 PM
Ty, CP! ;)

We always need to help when we can.

spygirl
08-20-2005, 11:23 PM
Unless a wife is faced with concrete proof, she won't suspect the husband.Not I, called the wolf. I wouldn't need concrete proof. All I would need is a clue, and I would be on it.
But really, if there is a serial in your city- would you be analyzing your hubby's behavior in comparision? A man you know, have kids with, argue with, eat with, sleep with?Yes, I would. If I found a poem like that, lived with the man for however many years they were together by 1977, you bet I would poke around following the other murders. A woman knows her husband better than anyone. She picks up on every nuance. 30 long years they lived under the same roof. Think about it. Most of the time during a conversation I pick the thoughts right out of my fiance's head, and we have been together only 4 1/2 years. Sometimes all it takes to know what is on his mind is a simple matter of body language.

Ok, so LE interviewed her over the course of a couple of days. They know how to interrogate people. I don't disregard that. I imagine that given the circumstances, it was an intense interrogation as well.

Still, the two possible scenarios are bothersome: either she subconsciously chose to ignore the signs, or didn't notice them, period.

I'm sorry. Something about that just doesn't sit right with me. It isn't normal.

Until the time comes when she can really go into some real depth about that man as she knew him, this is just how I feel about the matter. It is not a harsh or prejudiced opinion; it's just all I have to go on at present.

spygirl
08-20-2005, 11:28 PM
We always need to help when we can.I'm really going to need it after my last post, lol!

:truce:

mysteriew
08-20-2005, 11:38 PM
I'm really going to need it after my last post, lol!

:truce:
ROFL! :laugh: So you have your opinion and I have mine. Doesn't mean I slap you, LOL........ Either of us could be right, or we could both be wrong. Or maybe it is split somewhere down the middle.
Doesn't have to stop us from guessing, or expressing our opinion though.

spygirl
08-20-2005, 11:43 PM
ROFL! :laugh: So you have your opinion and I have mine. Doesn't mean I slap you, LOL........ Either of us could be right, or we could both be wrong. Or maybe it is split somewhere down the middle.
Doesn't have to stop us from guessing, or expressing our opinion though.Peace, sister!

:)

Chanler
08-20-2005, 11:57 PM
Not I, called the wolf. I wouldn't need concrete proof. All I would need is a clue, and I would be on it.Yes, I would. If I found a poem like that, lived with the man for however many years they were together by 1977, you bet I would poke around following the other murders. A woman knows her husband better than anyone. She picks up on every nuance. 30 long years they lived under the same roof. Think about it. Most of the time during a conversation I pick the thoughts right out of my fiance's head, and we have been together only 4 1/2 years. Sometimes all it takes to know what is on his mind is a simple matter of body language.

Ok, so LE interviewed her over the course of a couple of days. They know how to interrogate people. I don't disregard that. I imagine that given the circumstances, it was an intense interrogation as well.

Still, the two possible scenarios are bothersome: either she subconsciously chose to ignore the signs, or didn't notice them, period.

I'm sorry. Something about that just doesn't sit right with me. It isn't normal.

Until the time comes when she can really go into some real depth about that man as she knew him, this is just how I feel about the matter. It is not a harsh or prejudiced opinion; it's just all I have to go on at present.Couples are incredibly diverse. One of my roommates in college told me that his parents never argued, but almost never talked. A woman I know has parents who only appear together in large "family" contexts; never share a meal or an evening out together. Another woman I know didn't learn that her husband was a transvestite until months after their marriage.

I have no doubt that you would spot a Rader if you were married to him, but, mercifully, he would never marry you. People like Rader gravitate to women who don't expect (or want) deep communication.

pacific
08-21-2005, 01:57 AM
His first murder was committed 3 years after he and Paula married - and it happened to be the same year that their first child was born. She had their daughter 3 years after that. I think she had powerful reasons to not want to believe that her husband could be BTK. However, having said that, I would bet that she did, in fact, have some short mental flashes, which accompanied what he calls her 'strong fear', for instance, upon finding his poem about Mrs. Vian. I would not be at all surprised if she actually entertained the idea of whether he could be BTK, over the years. However, how can a wife ask something like that, about her husband? I mean, BTK's behavior was so despicable.....heck, with 2 young children and not much education or a career of her own that was really capable of supporting her and the kids, I can well understand her hiding this in her own head. She may even have forgotten how she seriously considered the possibility, by now. But - and this is just my 2c - I think the thought did cross her mind, and likely a # of times. :eek:

Poor lady. She would have to have considerable problems of her own, I think, to be married to such a limited individual. :( I feel genuinely sorry for her, too, as she may stand to lose all she gained, at least financially, in her life.

She teaches me a powerful lesson: if you think or feel there is something wrong, you just may be right. And personally, I'd rather face it earlier, than be 57 years old, as she is now; and facing having all her $ taken away, as well as being left alone with 34 years of what.....memories of "my husband, the BTK strangler"?? How horrendous! God, I hope she gets some good therapy. She's gonna need it.

:twocents:

mysteriew
08-21-2005, 02:49 AM
Now if she would only write a book. That one I would like to read.

txsvicki
08-21-2005, 04:58 AM
I believe that Paula may have been suspecting Rader since he starting sending in communications last year. The subject was on the news and in the papers daily. People of the Wichita area were all talking about it. There were experts talking about what type of man btk could be and Rader fit alot of those profiles, especially being into bdsm. I think Paula may have been about to put it all together and is probably lucky to still be alive after her comment to Rader about the spelling. She must be pretty smart and observant because I really don't believe that just anyone would think that their own husband spelled like btk much less make a comment about it to him.

pacific
08-21-2005, 03:31 PM
Now if she would only write a book. That one I would like to read.
Oh man, I would love to read that one, too! What do you think are the chances that she will, eventually, write a book - her story? I kinda think she will not very likely write anything. However, if she loses all of her money invested in their home, well, I can then see her perhaps writing a book. I'd put the chances of our seeing a book by Paula Rader at about 10%...

:D

catlover
08-21-2005, 04:24 PM
I believe that Paula may have been suspecting Rader since he starting sending in communications last year. The subject was on the news and in the papers daily. People of the Wichita area were all talking about it. There were experts talking about what type of man btk could be and Rader fit alot of those profiles, especially being into bdsm. I think Paula may have been about to put it all together and is probably lucky to still be alive after her comment to Rader about the spelling. She must be pretty smart and observant because I really don't believe that just anyone would think that their own husband spelled like btk much less make a comment about it to him.
My personal belief is after reading somewhere the daughter's husband posting about his wife waking up nightly with screaming nightmares, that she may have went to a therapist and was hypnotized ,where she may have remembered getting into her fathers closet and seeing some things that scared her so bad that she repressed it out of fear of punishment for getting into daddy's closet as well as what she may have seen .Maybe she went to the police with her concerns and gave her dna ,which was reported at first. The police may have decided not to involve her any futher and changed the story as to how they got her dna

Chanler
08-21-2005, 05:28 PM
My personal belief is after reading somewhere the daughter's husband posting about his wife waking up nightly with screaming nightmares, that she may have went to a therapist and was hypnotized ,where she may have remembered getting into her fathers closet and seeing some things that scared her so bad that she repressed it out of fear of punishment for getting into daddy's closet as well as what she may have seen .Maybe she went to the police with her concerns and gave her dna ,which was reported at first. The police may have decided not to involve her any futher and changed the story as to how they got her dna
Thanks, catlover, for mentioning the daughter's nightmares. Obviously, the idea of sharing a bed with a man was deeply troubling to her. This is the passage from the website:

"Dec 27 2003:
Living with Kerri
I think this is going to shorten my life. I am either waking up with no covers, waking up with a psychotic woman looking for a monster, or some mexican person that could've broken in to murder us. Either that or she is just screaming because she thinks that in my peacful state of slumber that I am trying to mutilate her in some way. I have heard rumors that all women are completely insane when they sleep. I think the idea is to control every facet of their mans life. There was a week or so after we had been married about a month where I was woke up 3 times a night to some sort of dream event of some kind or screaming. Let me tell you, it just about destroyed me.

For this reason alone I can say that I am glad we didn't sleep together before we were married. I certainly could not have handled having my sleep ruined during college, as I didn't sleep but 4 hours a night on average. I even started sleeping on the futon because I had lost the strength to climb into my bed. Man, college was fun. Maybe I'll start staying up late and sleeping on the couch here in an attempt to recreate that always sleepy college atmosphere. One time in studio, I was so tired that I fell asleep standing up while talking to Trevor. Man, I was SOOO tired."

I think that it's entirely possible that Rader's poor daughter has some root fear of men derived from her childhood; who would not being raised by DR, even in his "good citizen" phase. But obviously neither she nor her husband seem to be connecting her nightmares to a Wichita's newly resurrected mass torturer killer. Otherwise, I doubt that he would have mentioned it in a website entry, especially one that is more about sleep-deprivation than the cause of his wife's nightmares.

I think that it's extremely unlikely that the daughter went to the police. The chronology of events indicates clearly, I think, when and why the polce would be approaching her; unless she was psychic, the timing would be an instance of extreme serendipity. Also, in his final statement, Rader himself alludes to the DNA sample and connects it to police procedure. Misrepresenting it in court papers (which Rader was privy to) could have strengthened the possibility of an appeal; which nobody wanted.

A dear friend and her sister were raised by a "functioning psychotic." Although he wasn't physically or sexual abusive to them, both of them bear deep marks of being raised by him. One of them has sleep problems including nightmares and the other has severe anger management problems. It doesn't surprise me that poor KR would have had night monsters.

concernedperson
08-21-2005, 07:42 PM
My personal belief is after reading somewhere the daughter's husband posting about his wife waking up nightly with screaming nightmares, that she may have went to a therapist and was hypnotized ,where she may have remembered getting into her fathers closet and seeing some things that scared her so bad that she repressed it out of fear of punishment for getting into daddy's closet as well as what she may have seen .Maybe she went to the police with her concerns and gave her dna ,which was reported at first. The police may have decided not to involve her any futher and changed the story as to how they got her dna

Excellent theory and a probability. Please keep posting as we need these insights. Wow, I am so glad you are here.

To add, I hope Paula does come forward....first and foremost for herself....and second that she sheds light on what is probably a closed situation and she was more than likely an outsider to it all. But tidbits will help others in retrospect. The little clues are often the ones that ultimately make a difference.

catlover
08-21-2005, 08:07 PM
Excellent theory and a probability. Please keep posting as we need these insights. Wow, I am so glad you are here.

To add, I hope Paula does come forward....first and foremost for herself....and second that she sheds light on what is probably a closed situation and she was more than likely an outsider to it all. But tidbits will help others in retrospect. The little clues are often the ones that ultimately make a difference.
Thank You,I just felt that it was strange about his Daughter and knowing kids will get into Mom and Dads things at one time or another curious about what is there and why they can't see it too.

BillyGoatGruff
08-21-2005, 10:45 PM
I wanted to add, also, that any woman who has posted or read at crime sleuthing websites for a reasonable length of time, is naturally suspicious! So, in that respect, Mrs. Rader wouldn't be like us.

My dad was a lot like Rader.... ruled his home with an *iron fist* so to speak, never to be questioned. No one dared create any ripples in his pond. So I can understand Mrs. R's hesitancy to go through his things. He had to be exceptionally organized, so that anything she needed to look for, such as important papers, would be in an accessible place where she wouldn't need to rummage around.

Some women stay with men like that. It's hard to understand though, him being the sociopath he is. He doesn't strike me as being a warm, sensitive individual, even behind closed doors. 30 years she spent with him! Wow. Talk about tenacity.

I hope she can move on after all of this. I wonder if she will ever trust another man again, enough to become intimate. I hope that she will go public with her story. This has to be so hard on her, with so many skeptics scrutinizing her life with him. Did she work outside the home? If not, that presents a whole new set of challenges, especially for a woman accustomed to a certain lifestyle before all of this. I hope her kids are able to regain some semblance of normalcy.

I'm sure the community will be supportive of whatever efforts she makes to put this behind her, though in reality, she never, ever will be able to in full.

I'm glad that this forum doesn't attract a whole lot of attention, because it's just what he would have wanted. I watched most of Wednesday and Thursday's sentencing. He has such soulless eyes. Pits of emptiness.
I wouldn't be surprised if his wife came from a dysfunctional family with a distant father as well. She may have lived with Rader and stayed with him all this time because she thought this was what married life was supposed to be, or didn't think she could do better.

BillyGoatGruff
08-21-2005, 10:49 PM
Thanks, catlover, for mentioning the daughter's nightmares. Obviously, the idea of sharing a bed with a man was deeply troubling to her. This is the passage from the website:

"Dec 27 2003:
II think that it's extremely unlikely that the daughter went to the police. The chronology of events indicates clearly, I think, when and why the polce would be approaching her; unless she was psychic, the timing would be an instance of extreme serendipity. Also, in his final statement, Rader himself alludes to the DNA sample and connects it to police procedure. Misrepresenting it in court papers (which Rader was privy to) could have strengthened the possibility of an appeal; which nobody wanted.
.
The court documents have stated that the DNA from the daughter came from a banked tissue sample, not the daughter herself, and they had to get a warrant for it. They were 99.9% Rader was their man, since they had his license plate from the Home Depot surveillance tapes. The DNA evidence simply made it 100%.

BillyGoatGruff
08-21-2005, 10:52 PM
My personal belief is after reading somewhere the daughter's husband posting about his wife waking up nightly with screaming nightmares, that she may have went to a therapist and was hypnotized ,where she may have remembered getting into her fathers closet and seeing some things that scared her so bad that she repressed it out of fear of punishment for getting into daddy's closet as well as what she may have seen .Maybe she went to the police with her concerns and gave her dna ,which was reported at first. The police may have decided not to involve her any futher and changed the story as to how they got her dna
The DNA was retrieved from a banked tissue sample. The daughter had nothing to do with handing it over, as it was obtained via a warrant. I suspect her nightmares and psychological trauma are more likely related to suppressed memories of sexual abuse, as Rader has discussed at length his fantasies re teaching a 10 year old girl about sex. And this was a man who acted on his fantasies.

Sassygerl
08-21-2005, 11:05 PM
Thank You,I just felt that it was strange about his Daughter and knowing kids will get into Mom and Dads things at one time or another curious about what is there and why they can't see it too.

I agree, especially around Christmas!!!! Kids snoop!

I sure hope in time the family will speak out, that is one book I'd love to read. Better yet an interview on TV would be interesting too!

BillyGoatGruff
08-21-2005, 11:14 PM
I agree, especially around Christmas!!!! Kids snoop!

I sure hope in time the family will speak out, that is one book I'd love to read. Better yet an interview on TV would be interesting too!
I think we'll find out eventually Rader was hell to live with, being controlling, domneering, and especially protective of "his" space. I bet his kids played at their friends houses and were never allowed to have sleep overs or friends in their house.

txsvicki
08-21-2005, 11:14 PM
Couples are incredibly diverse. One of my roommates in college told me that his parents never argued, but almost never talked. A woman I know has parents who only appear together in large "family" contexts; never share a meal or an evening out together. Another woman I know didn't learn that her husband was a transvestite until months after their marriage.

I have no doubt that you would spot a Rader if you were married to him, but, mercifully, he would never marry you. People like Rader gravitate to women who don't expect (or want) deep communication.


Remember the guy who came forward when btk was first caught? His mother had dated Rader and thought he was the nicest guy there was and had even named her son after him? This guy said that the boy's dad probably doesn't even know that she had named one of her sons after a former boyfriend. Rader could also have liked domineering women or those who do things on their own or the way they want. I just can't understand why no friends from way back in school or growing up have come forward to tell what type of person person Paula was, other than being sweet. I know her work friends really spoke well of her but no one has said if she is a really strong woman or shy or what.

pacific
08-21-2005, 11:16 PM
The DNA was retrieved from a banked tissue sample. The daughter had nothing to do with handing it over, as it was obtained via a warrant. I suspect her nightmares and psychological trauma are more likely related to suppressed memories of sexual abuse, as Rader has discussed at length his fantasies re teaching a 10 year old girl about sex. And this was a man who acted on his fantasies.
I agree with you. A young woman with a father like that, would be at very high risk of incest. When I saw here, about her having nightmares and screaming in her sleep, driving her husband batty, that speaks to me of 'post traumatic stress disorder'. That kind of problem is heavily correlated with incest survivors, and with children who repress memories, because it is too dangerous to be in touch with them, until they leave home & feel safe enough to recall a few things. Geez, I feel sorry for his daughter. What a load to have to carry through life: "my dad is BTK". :banghead:

mysteriew
08-22-2005, 12:24 AM
I am going to get slapped for this, but this thought occurred to me. I wondered why I felt so strongly that Rader did love his wife.
Throughout all he did, he stayed "faithful". He honored his marriage vows.
He had sexual fantasies, he masturbated beside victims, he tortured- but he didn't rape- though he threatened to. The testimony that was given was pretty explicit- but there was no hint that any type of sexual contact (oral, digital, or actual penetration) between Rader and his victims occured.
He was not sexually intimate with any of his victims. I think he did in his fantasies, but not in the murders.

No, I don't think he was capable of real love. But in his own fashion he loved or at least honored his wife.

Okay, Let the slap down proceed...............

Chanler
08-22-2005, 12:38 AM
Remember the guy who came forward when btk was first caught? His mother had dated Rader and thought he was the nicest guy there was and had even named her son after him? This guy said that the boy's dad probably doesn't even know that she had named one of her sons after a former boyfriend. Rader could also have liked domineering women or those who do things on their own or the way they want. I just can't understand why no friends from way back in school or growing up have come forward to tell what type of person person Paula was, other than being sweet. I know her work friends really spoke well of her but no one has said if she is a really strong woman or shy or what.
Thanks, txsvicki. I had completely forgotten about his old girlfriend. Dating can be deceiving: Divorce rates in the first year or two are very high.

I suspect that poor Paula married an even-tempered, job-focused guy who didn't drink, smoke, or cavort. She just happened to get a mass murder in the bargain.

Chanler
08-22-2005, 12:49 AM
I am going to get slapped for this, but this thought occurred to me. I wondered why I felt so strongly that Rader did love his wife.
Throughout all he did, he stayed "faithful". He honored his marriage vows.
He had sexual fantasies, he masturbated beside victims, he tortured- but he didn't rape- though he threatened to. The testimony that was given was pretty explicit- but there was no hint that any type of sexual contact (oral, digital, or actual penetration) between Rader and his victims occured.
He was not sexually intimate with any of his victims. I think he did in his fantasies, but not in the murders.

No, I don't think he was capable of real love. But in his own fashion he loved or at least honored his wife.

Okay, Let the slap down proceed...............
Thank you!!! the same thought has occurred to me. In this respect, Rader is a lot like sociopath/spy/churchgoing FBI agent Robert Hanssen who remained "faithful" to his wife even as he was distributing nude pictures and sex videos of her to his best friend. Hanssen lavished thousands of dollars and a car on a youthful club dancer but insisted that they couldn't have sex.

I think that Rader did "love" his wife and his children, although like all sociopaths, his attachments are poisoned by his secrets.

pacific
08-22-2005, 02:16 AM
I am going to get slapped for this, but this thought occurred to me. I wondered why I felt so strongly that Rader did love his wife.
Throughout all he did, he stayed "faithful". He honored his marriage vows.
He had sexual fantasies, he masturbated beside victims, he tortured- but he didn't rape- though he threatened to. The testimony that was given was pretty explicit- but there was no hint that any type of sexual contact (oral, digital, or actual penetration) between Rader and his victims occured.
He was not sexually intimate with any of his victims. I think he did in his fantasies, but not in the murders.

No, I don't think he was capable of real love. But in his own fashion he loved or at least honored his wife.

Okay, Let the slap down proceed...............LOL, not really something to 'slap you down' about, IMHO... :D The thing that so fascinates...and horrifies me about this guy, is these kinds of very obvious contradictions that would bother most of us greatly; but that, to him, are evidence of being at least partially a good person. Yes, he was "faithful" to his marriage vows, LOL. This reminds me a tad bit of the kind of thinking that Bill Clinton had.....about "what constitutes sex" and what the "meaning of the word *is*, is..." etc. Of course, Mr. Clinton and Mr. Rader cannot be compared. :bang: But it is this compartmentalization, where they are able to actually soothe themselves into thinking that they are following the 'letter of the law', that both crack me up and horrify me. But I do understand your point here.

I think I see many ways in which Rader was a "good" person. It's confusing as all-get-out, though...

One thing that drives me buggy about him is: how in hell did he go to church every week, truly feel that he was a "christian", and yet do this stuff? I mean, we all do bad things - churchgoers or not. But this.....THIS EXTREME, I will never understand. The "compartmentalization" in church-going serial killer is just too much for my tiny brain to handle. LOL.

:o :eek: :sick: :furious: :D Revulsion. Utter revulsion.....

mysteriew
08-22-2005, 02:44 AM
It is like I read somewhere. When confessing in court- Rader calmly went into a lot of detail about the murders. Yet he did not discuss masturbating over them. He could commit and calmly discuss one of the most obscene acts a human can do- murder of a child.......yet he couldn't discuss that he masturbated over her body. Such a mixture of prudishness and obscenity is unfathomable. And he didn't even seem to be aware of it.

Jonslatenites
08-22-2005, 03:18 AM
The serial killer told her the draft was for a college class, according to court records. She didn't suspect him of being BTK, authorities say.

Once, years ago, Paula Rader, the wife of Dennis Rader, became scared when she found a draft of a disturbing poem in their home. It was about Shirley Vian Relford, a young mother strangled in 1977.

And right before her husband's arrest this past February, she told him he spelled "just like BTK."

That's part of what Rader told investigators about his wife after they arrested him, according to a 92-page court document filed by prosecutors Thursday. It details Rader's crimes and interviews with investigators after his arrest.

But authorities said Friday that there's no indication Paula Rader knew her husband was BTK.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/12431373.htm

Interesting, and she couldn't figure out that it was his voice? :hand: Or she chose not to??? :silenced:

mysteriew
08-22-2005, 03:24 AM
Interesting, and she couldn't figure out that it was his voice? :hand: Or she chose not to??? :silenced:

LE interviewed her for several hours and said she cooperated. They were satisfied that she knew nothing about Rader being BTK. Immediately after being questioned she left the area, and just recently got a divorce. Neither she nor their children have been to see Rader according to reports from the media. Neither she nor the kids have made a public statement.

pacific
08-22-2005, 01:43 PM
Interesting, and she couldn't figure out that it was his voice? :hand: Or she chose not to??? :silenced:
LOL. I know what you mean. I have thought this in the same way you have, *many times*. <snort> :waitasec: :crazy: Well, as a priest friend has said to me, "Denial is very powerful in the human being."

YEOWZAA!!! :banghead: :crazy:

YellowDog
08-22-2005, 02:03 PM
Don't you find it strange that as many times as BTKs voice was played on radio and television in the Wichita area that neither his wife or his children picked up on it?

Most of us can recognize the voice of a person whom we know almost immediately when we hear it on the telephone. I can recognize voices of friends I haven't talked to in years when they call.

mysteriew
08-22-2005, 02:08 PM
Don't you find it strange that as many times as BTKs voice was played on radio and television in the Wichita area that neither his wife or his children picked up on it?

Most of us can recognize the voice of a person whom we know almost immediately when we hear it on the telephone. I can recognize voices of friends I haven't talked to in years when they call.

Did you connect his voice with the voice we all heard confessing? It might be interesting to find the link with the 911 call and compare it to his voice confessing.

YellowDog
08-22-2005, 02:16 PM
Did you connect his voice with the voice we all heard confessing? It might be interesting to find the link with the 911 call and compare it to his voice confessing.


I hadn't really thought about that because I wouldn't have known what his voice sounded like on a day to day basis. But I think if I'd had constant contact with him vocally over a long period of time, I'd pick up on it. It really didn't sound like he tried to disguise his voice at all.

Could that be what set the daughter's nightmares off? Hearing his voice and not connecting the dots until she was sleeping?

jilly
08-22-2005, 02:42 PM
I think we'll find out eventually Rader was hell to live with, being controlling, domneering, and especially protective of "his" space. I bet his kids played at their friends houses and were never allowed to have sleep overs or friends in their house.

I agree. You just don't turn a controlling personality on and off.

BillyGoatGruff
08-22-2005, 03:44 PM
It is like I read somewhere. When confessing in court- Rader calmly went into a lot of detail about the murders. Yet he did not discuss masturbating over them. He could commit and calmly discuss one of the most obscene acts a human can do- murder of a child.......yet he couldn't discuss that he masturbated over her body. Such a mixture of prudishness and obscenity is unfathomable. And he didn't even seem to be aware of it.
Prudishness mixed with intense/extreme sexual perversion is often a component of a certain sub-species of psychopathic personality. It's also a hallmark of a certain type of child molester. It's also known, in less extreme cases, as hypocrisy. Shining examples would be Fathers Shanley & Geoghan, Rabbi Whatisface, and that Texas preacher who murdered his wife so he could play the field.

BillyGoatGruff
08-22-2005, 03:45 PM
I agree. You just don't turn a controlling personality on and off.
I think we'll get a picture from his friends, family and co-workers of a man who was distant, condescending , and a real azz-hole. But no one had a clue as to how huge an azz-hole he truly was.

txsvicki
08-22-2005, 10:50 PM
Thanks, txsvicki. I had completely forgotten about his old girlfriend. Dating can be deceiving: Divorce rates in the first year or two are very high.

I suspect that poor Paula married an even-tempered, job-focused guy who didn't drink, smoke, or cavort. She just happened to get a mass murder in the bargain.


I think Rader's whole life revolved around his sexual fantasies and then later the murders and planning more murders. Rader had no need of running around or cheating. It was of no use to him. I wouldn't doubt that Rader couldn't really even have normal sex without fantasizing about killing someone. Yuck. Poor Mrs. Rader.

Bobbisangel
08-23-2005, 03:59 AM
I wonder if Rader and his wife had a normal sex life or if he was perverted with her. He seemed to be pretty dysfunctional sexually. If it took watching people die for him to get aroused then I wonder if he was impaired with his wife. If so, I wonder how he explained that to her. "Sorry honey but I can't even get it up unless I can torture, bind, and then kill you first." I doubt that he could have sex with his wife while holding a picture of one of his victims.

It just doesn't seem that he could be so crippled sexually when he murdered people and then be completely normal sexually with his wife. Looking back now his wife no doubt understands a lot of things that she hadn't before. He probably blamed her for his sexual problems....keeping her self esteem down on the ground....now she knows who was at fault and why. Poor woman.

mysteriew
08-23-2005, 04:27 AM
With his prudishness, I think Rader was one of those who goes by the old southern standards. You don't take a "bad" girl home to mama, but the "bad" girls are the ones you play with. To him, the victims were the "bad" ones he played with. My guess is that Paula was "on a pedestal". He probably treated her honorably as long as she kept her place, knew that he wore the pants in the family, kept a clean house, cooked and took care of his kids (helped to create the perfect family image). And she was probably one of those women who totally accepted that. She probably thought he was reserved (non-experimental) and maybe had a low sex drive. He was probably reserved and maybe somewhat distant at home (macho image) but somehow I feel that he probably treated her well. The only way that image would have cracked, is if she threatened to leave for some reason, or had had an affair, or made fun of him, or talked bad about him. But as long as she helped with the perfect family image, it was in his best interest to be thought of as a loving husband. Think about what the church members said about him after his arrest. Think about the pastor's loyalty after the arrest. Think of the shock that Paula and the children have displayed. None of that would have been so apparent, if he had been seen as a cruel, sadistic husband.

Thundar
08-23-2005, 01:07 PM
Think about what the church members said about him after his arrest. Think about the pastor's loyalty after the arrest. Think of the shock that Paula and the children have displayed. None of that would have been so apparent, if he had been seen as a cruel, sadistic husband.
Rader himself admitted that he was "compartmentalized." He went from the site of a kill, cleaned up, changed clothes, and stepped right back into his family man, church going side. Scarey!! I remember Rader made some remark about Pastor Clark not being able to understand the different sides to Rader's life. I bet nobody who "knew" him can understand those different sides.

txsvicki
08-24-2005, 10:25 PM
LE did state something along the lines "when he didn't have a willing partner" for bondage. This is practically saying that he did have a partner at times for binding him and whatever.

BillyGoatGruff
08-25-2005, 04:29 PM
LE did state something along the lines "when he didn't have a willing partner" for bondage. This is practically saying that he did have a partner at times for binding him and whatever.
Doesn't mean it was his wife.
Hell, the perv probably spent a good deal of time tying up Boy Scouts as part of his Scout Master duties, teaching them how to tie knots.

Sassygerl
08-25-2005, 06:31 PM
Doesn't mean it was his wife.
Hell, the perv probably spent a good deal of time tying up Boy Scouts as part of his Scout Master duties, teaching them how to tie knots.

Or maybe his daughter. I'm still curious about Kerri's husbands blog that talked about her waking him up every night with her screaming...she was having nightmares. This was written before he was captured.

He also had his Barbie collection that obviously occupied him some.....twisted!

Becba
08-25-2005, 06:58 PM
LE did state something along the lines "when he didn't have a willing partner" for bondage. This is practically saying that he did have a partner at times for binding him and whatever.His wife was likely submissive in personality and became submissive in bed.
It is obvious they did not play out his fantasies to much extent or she would be dead.
His obsession involved dead bodies and masterbation. Not much need for a willing partner when he didn't seem to require a living person during the actual sex. Likely, he spent most of his time playing with himself in his fantasy world and rarely had sex with his wife. When he did sleep with her it was probably as Rader attempting to be a normal guy.
I gotta say, with all the drawings and photos and such, she had to have none he had a strange side to him.

concernedperson
08-25-2005, 07:21 PM
His wife was likely submissive in personality and became submissive in bed.
It is obvious they did not play out his fantasies to much extent or she would be dead.
His obsession involved dead bodies and masterbation. Not much need for a willing partner when he didn't seem to require a living person during the actual sex. Likely, he spent most of his time playing with himself in his fantasy world and rarely had sex with his wife. When he did sleep with her it was probably as Rader attempting to be a normal guy.
I gotta say, with all the drawings and photos and such, she had to have none he had a strange side to him.

As much as I feel Paula was a victim in this I am beginning to "see" another side.But that side may not be what we know.....how many people actually go to crime forums to learn? Do they just live their lives wondering with no resolve, no understanding and no resolve. Do they think they are crazy? Most would just say....oh, that is my family, nutty....but so is everyone else's. I am cutting some slack here but there are clues if someone wanted to follow them. The problem is most people let it slide.

Becba
08-25-2005, 07:46 PM
As much as I feel Paula was a victim in this I am beginning to "see" another side.But that side may not be what we know.....how many people actually go to crime forums to learn? Do they just live their lives wondering with no resolve, no understanding and no resolve. Do they think they are crazy? Most would just say....oh, that is my family, nutty....but so is everyone else's. I am cutting some slack here but there are clues if someone wanted to follow them. The problem is most people let it slide.I think she was "trained" not to question Rader over the years. Not to say he beat her, just that if you never get a satisfactory answer out of someone you learn it's does no good to ask.
She was happy with her life. She had a husband, 2 kids, a home, her church etc.
As long as he didn't abuse her or the kids, why rock the boat?
He couldn't have been emotionally supportive. Over the years she likely became conditioned to the gap in their relationship and accepted it as how things were to be. He was controlling acording to many people that ran into his nitpicking about dogs and saw him actually measure their grass with a ruler. I can see her feeling it was better to turn a blind eye than have to deal with him. He only sees his side of things, as apparent by his confession. To raise an issue would get her no where.
I think questioning him about the poem was an indication she knew the closed off side of him could be hiding something sinister. She just did not want to pursue it. As you say, she just let it slide.

txsvicki
08-26-2005, 12:44 AM
Doesn't mean it was his wife.
Hell, the perv probably spent a good deal of time tying up Boy Scouts as part of his Scout Master duties, teaching them how to tie knots.

That's not in the context of how they, LE, said it, it's in the transcripts. No prostitutes, s&m clubs, or anyone has stepped forward claiming to have been a willing partner for Rader.

He was very orderly and putting things in order,
8 taking photographs of that. He would -- he would take
9 these dolls, tie them up. He would actually paint on
10 them to make them look older, whether it be pubic
11 hair, eyelashes, darker hair on some occasions. And
12 then he would tie them up and photograph them in
13 different types acts so he could fantasize between his
14 kills. He could use this as a fantasy rather than --
15 because he did not have a compliant partner right
16 then, he would use these dolls to feed his sexual
17 fantasy, he would state.

Becba
08-26-2005, 01:25 AM
That's not in the context of how they, LE, said it, it's in the transcripts. No prostitutes, s&m clubs, or anyone has stepped forward claiming to have been a willing partner for Rader.
It is hard to say what goes on in a couples bedroom. I just don't see his wife putting up with any real bondage. Perhaps mild role playing.

Did Paula deny him sex for months at a time?
I do know when Paula was pregnant with one of her children Rader did kill. I don't remember which child or victim now. A comparison of the birth dates and killings does match up though. ( I lost all my links for research)
I thought it was horrid he would kill with a pregnant wife. Now I think this may have been what the LE was referring to. They may have not had sex in the later months of her pregnancies. Even her being pregnant may have been a turn off and he went into his trolling mode.

txsvicki
08-26-2005, 04:54 AM
Yes, but compliant means submissive. I see that transcript in the context of how it's used, fantasy and bondage. When he did not have a submissive partner, he used the dolls which he tied up. I think Rader would have killed no matter what kind of sex he was getting or how much at home especially since he was hanging himself and animals long before ever marrying. But on the other hand, the investigator says that this is what Rader stated. Surely Rader doesn't think that all his victims were actually submitting. There's no telling what he meant by that. Maybe even trying to give his wife a bad name, which I think he has tried to do in some of his statements.

Becba
08-26-2005, 07:27 AM
Yes, but compliant means submissive. I see that transcript in the context of how it's used, fantasy and bondage. When he did not have a submissive partner, he used the dolls which he tied up. I think Rader would have killed no matter what kind of sex he was getting or how much at home especially since he was hanging himself and animals long before ever marrying. But on the other hand, the investigator says that this is what Rader stated. Surely Rader doesn't think that all his victims were actually submitting. There's no telling what he meant by that. Maybe even trying to give his wife a bad name, which I think he has tried to do in some of his statements.
No Idea but i think submisive in the purest form to BTK meant dead.
Dead body.
No role playing. No physical reaction. Just a dead body was what he liked.

BillyGoatGruff
08-26-2005, 07:06 PM
I think she was "trained" not to question Rader over the years. Not to say he beat her, just that if you never get a satisfactory answer out of someone you learn it's does no good to ask.
She was happy with her life. She had a husband, 2 kids, a home, her church etc.
As long as he didn't abuse her or the kids, why rock the boat?
He couldn't have been emotionally supportive. Over the years she likely became conditioned to the gap in their relationship and accepted it as how things were to be. He was controlling acording to many people that ran into his nitpicking about dogs and saw him actually measure their grass with a ruler. I can see her feeling it was better to turn a blind eye than have to deal with him. He only sees his side of things, as apparent by his confession. To raise an issue would get her no where.
I think questioning him about the poem was an indication she knew the closed off side of him could be hiding something sinister. She just did not want to pursue it. As you say, she just let it slide.
I can easily imagine him raining down a stream of verbal abuse on her if she did question him: "You're stupid", "You're crazy", ""Who are you to think that?", "You don't know what you're talking about", "What are you, an idiot?"
etc. etc. etc.

BillyGoatGruff
08-26-2005, 07:07 PM
Yes, but compliant means submissive. I see that transcript in the context of how it's used, fantasy and bondage. When he did not have a submissive partner, he used the dolls which he tied up. I think Rader would have killed no matter what kind of sex he was getting or how much at home especially since he was hanging himself and animals long before ever marrying. But on the other hand, the investigator says that this is what Rader stated. Surely Rader doesn't think that all his victims were actually submitting. There's no telling what he meant by that. Maybe even trying to give his wife a bad name, which I think he has tried to do in some of his statements.
Actually, as deluded as this man seems to be, he might have considered what he did to these women as "consensual". Since he didn't have to kill them to tie them up, in his mind they "let him" do it to them. Ick.

concernedperson
08-26-2005, 07:37 PM
Actually, as deluded as this man seems to be, he might have considered what he did to these women as "consensual". Since he didn't have to kill them to tie them up, in his mind they "let him" do it to them. Ick.

Actually, this is brilliant.And another avenue to explore.

pacific
08-27-2005, 03:47 AM
He said in court, I believe, that Shirley Vian and he had together given toys to her children, in the bathroom, while "they" went into another room. I got the chilling sense that Rader felt that Shirley was somehow accompanying him willingly... :eek: Talk about self-delusion!

When they discussed the murders of the Otero family, I had the impression that what he got the most pleasure from, was watching his victim die slowly while he masturbated. Josie Otero, age 11, for instance. He hung her just far enough off the floor so that she could reach the floor with her tip-toes. He watched her slowly struggle and hang to death. He loved this. He masturbated.

I'm not sure what he got out of the dead bodies themselves, such as his taking Marine Hedge's dead body to the church, to photograph it. Is that where he got most of his sick needs met? By being with dead bodies, masturbating or whatever? I thought that his necrophilic stuff had more to do with helping him to remember the 'pleasure' of killing them, slowly.....and how that was linked to his sexuality.

I understand why he feels he is a Christian. How on earth he could hang himself as a hobby before marriage, yet never share this little pastime with his wife-to-be, before their wedding day, is beyond me. He is about as insane as I can imagine. He is also sane enough to know very well what NOT to tell. But the disservice he did to his wife-to-be was so appalling. I lack words for it.

:banghead:

doranchak
08-26-2013, 07:29 AM
Here is an article about finding words in the puzzle BTK sent to a Kansas TV station in 2004:

http://www.zodiackillerciphers.com/?p=454

2Hope4
09-01-2013, 05:15 PM
Still think there must be more victims. How did he curb his urges to kill for so many years? Hmmmm....

Mrs G Norris
09-01-2013, 05:18 PM
Still think there must be more victims. How did he curb his urges to kill for so many years? Hmmmm....

If it correct that he 'stopped killing' during the years the DP was applicable in Kansas, and 'resumed killing' when it no longer was then yeah, I think it's more a case of 'convenient confessing' also.

wfgodot
09-01-2013, 05:37 PM
Rader's last known killing was in 1991. Kansas reinstated the death penalty in 1994, having not carried out that punishment since 1965.

Bargle
09-02-2013, 02:34 PM
I've been reading up on BTK again lately. Both the DA at the time and profiler John Douglas say there are no gaps in BTK's past where he could have committed other murders. He plotted other ones, but never carried them out.

Make of that what you will.

wfgodot
01-20-2014, 09:46 PM
Dedicated Wichita police commander Ken Landwehr laid to rest (http://www.kansas.com/2014/01/18/3236920/dedicated-detective-police-commander.html). (Wichita Eagle)

Blondie in Spokane
01-21-2014, 08:35 AM
Oh Wf.....thanks for posting this....I had no idea he died and I'm so sorry to hear that! I read all the info I could find and watched every documentary about BTK years ago and was fascinated! Ken Landwehr was so impressive in catching BTK. I loved his laid back but tough-as-nails demeanor.

RIP Ken!

(This case terrified me!)

Backwoods
04-20-2014, 12:30 AM
BTK describes his own crimes

Editor's note:This article contains graphic and disturbing material.



Dennis Rader's description of his crimes — in letters to police that have just been released to reporters — was far uglier than the emotionless account he gave in court ....



A letter detailing how BTK killed his first four victims portrays a family in terror. ...


Another communication details how Rader developed violent sexual fantasies.


Police caution that he could be lying in both communications....


more at: http://www.kansas.com/2005/07/16/19134/btk-describes-his-own-crimes.html

Take a clue from the editor's note -- this is pretty awful.

This is an older article, but since it seems the BTK thread has not had a lot of activity, thought it might be appropriate to post even now.

CloudProud
04-30-2014, 09:23 AM
New here but have info on the real reason BTK made contact with the WPD after all those years. Not sure if I should post here or on a new thread? I will post on here sorry but this is the first thing that came up in the BTK search. I know why Raider made contact with the WPD, he had contact with the witness that saw him and scared him off all those years ago. Made him leave the house on the West side of Wichita all those years ago. He knew him as soon as their eyes meet that day at work. Shortly after that BTK started making contact with the WPD, if you could of seen the way he locked onto the witness at work that day like I did you would of thought if he could have he would of killed him right then there on the spot.

They both knew who each other were my friend told me about scaring off the intruder from his house and how his family thought that it was BTK. They gave a report to the WPD, and how they were completely blown off by investigators. He also gave me several other bombshells, like how he had seen Raider at the former Wichita Public Library extension in the old Westlink mall. It was closed years ago when the new library was built stalking one of the Women he BTK killed. He talked about cords from blinds that were left out to dry disappearing from the church behind the same library and talking to someone in the police telling them that a man matching Raiders description was seen by the children stealing them? Again blown off by the police as if they didn't want to find this guy or take what was being said by the witness as real.

Finally me and my friend both have tried contacting the FBI, KBI, WPD, several crime investigators about what my friend knows about the case and no one will even bother to return a call or a simple email. They could of stopped BTK/Raider all those years ago, my friend the witness doesn't want to become famous but does want to know why no one bothered to do any follow up or care? Raider came to his house and was going to murder him and his family that day he was scared off due to him and the number of loaded guns in the house. He picked the wrong house to talk his way into that day he would of never left it alive that day if he would of tried anything. I am holding back the details of what happened that day until my friend tells me that he is cool with my posting the story of what went on in the house on West Wichita, and at the Wichita Public Extension Library.

This is not the only serial killer he has come into contact with over his life so he wants to keep his privacy. He knows that there are some that follow BTK are not the right kind of fans. Also feels like there are issues with the investigation by the Police dropping the ball in a big way. Lets call it the witness that is inconvenient to the WPD others. I left out a lot of facts and info to this to give people a chance to ask questions about what happened and if someone wants to know what really happened the day BTK came to kill my friends family, his connection to them, the stalking, my friend leaving town and then coming into contact with Raider all those years latter.

Maybe people don't care now that BTK is in prison, but this could've been taken care of a lot sooner if someone would of taken some time to listen. They still don't have all the fact, then again people don't seem to care about things like that, they seem to get in the way of things phony heroes and egos, lies about shoulda, woulda, couldas, by the WPD, others. Feel free to ask any questions this is not the only one I will be commenting on. I have info on some of the others I have been investigating. Missing persons, and happy to help is I am able so are my friends if we can. Again new to the site so sorry if I should of started a new string for the new BTK info to get people interested. CP

Redbird
04-30-2014, 11:01 AM
Am very curious to know how one could be unfortunately enough to come in contact with not one but two serial killers if one was not in LE.

Hekattee
10-07-2014, 06:26 AM
He is writing a book and says that the proceeds will be going to the victims' families. Personally, I think this is an insult and a way of him of courting the media again.

http://news.sky.com/story/1348273/btk-killer-writing-book-to-help-families

SurfieTX
12-09-2014, 10:54 AM
Kerri Rawson, the daughter of BTK serial killer Dennis Rader, broke the family’s nine-year silence Thursday and talked about her father’s 10 murders.

An interview by writer Stephen King about the upcoming movie “A Good Marriage” prompted her to break the self-imposed silence, she said.

The movie, adapted from one of King’s short stories, is about a wife who suddenly discovers her husband is a serial killer. Rawson, 36, learned on Wednesday that the movie was inspired by her father and her family.

“He’s exploiting my father’s 10 victims and their families,” she said.

She said she, her brother and her mother didn’t know that her father was BTK until the FBI told her in February 2005, shortly after Dennis Rader’s arrest.

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/article2251870.html#storylink=cpy

OkieGranny
02-21-2015, 12:32 PM
Feature article on Kerri, discussing her life as the child of a serial killer:

http://pubsys.kansas.com/static/BTK/index.html


Kerri asked friends: “Don’t tag our children” on Facebook. When friends asked why, she didn’t know how to answer them. She told some of them that “my dad did something terrible.”

“What?”

“Just Google me.”

And they would. And then: “Oh.”

There are two kinds of friends, Darian said later. “The kind that when we told who Dennis was, they’d just say, ‘That’s super-weird, but it doesn’t change the way we think about you guys.’

“And then there’s the other kind... who perhaps think this thing defines you.”

bessie
02-26-2015, 06:57 PM
Good article here about Rader written by a criminologist. (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/how-psychopaths-hide-in-plain-sight--a-psychological-analysis-of-serial-killer-dennis-rader-10067795.html)

How psychopaths hide in plain sight – a psychological analysis of serial killer Dennis Rader
David Wilson
Tuesday 24 February 2015

[...]
‘Geographically stable’, as opposed to ‘transient’ serial killers, are usually caught quite quickly but, despite the fact that Rader killed entirely within Wichita and its environs, he escaped justice for over 30 years. He also took long breaks between his murders so that, for example, there was almost eight years between his murder of Nancy Fox in December 1977, which he described as his “perfect hit” and Marine Hedge – his next victim - in April 1985.

This too is unusual for serial killers - they don’t usually switch on and then off again their desire to kill. Killing is a compulsion for them, propelling them ever onwards to more victims and often in increasingly bizarre circumstances. This might make it appear that they want to be caught. Nothing can be further from the truth although, by the time that justice finally catches up with them, they have become so divorced from reality that they often simply don’t realise how strange their behaviour has become. They therefore take risks and impulsively throw their plans – their modus operandi, their criminological “signature” out of the window because they believe that this is no longer going to deliver a kill.

(continued at the link with interesting discussion following in the comments section.)