View Full Version : Photos of the Couple - *WARNING: Graphic Images*
christine2448
09-19-2008, 08:36 AM
http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-1-Jane-Doe-police-sketch.jpg http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-2-John-Doe-police-sketc.jpg
christine2448
09-19-2008, 08:43 AM
http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-1-Jane-Doe-Police-Sketch-.jpg
Jane Doe - Police Sketch and Coroner's Photo
http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-2-John-Doe-Sketch-Photo.jpg
John Doe - Police Sketch and Coroner's Photo
badhorsie
09-27-2008, 11:46 AM
They almost look like brother and sister:confused:
They almost look like brother and sister:confused:
I agree, or closely related. :waitasec:
MaedchenX
09-27-2008, 02:15 PM
Yes they definitely look as though they may be related and I would not doubt that they are siblings. What caught me was that they both share a smiliar if not the same natural arch of the eyebrow, their size and shape of their lips as well as the general shape of the philtrum are also virtualy identical.
elepher50
10-02-2008, 06:29 PM
From my untrained eye they sure have a lot of the same facial features. I agree they are probably siblings.
Mysterylover
10-30-2008, 10:17 AM
http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-1-Jane-Doe-Police-Sketch-.jpg
Jane Doe - Police Sketch and Coroner's Photo
http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/6-2-John-Doe-Sketch-Photo.jpg
John Doe - Police Sketch and Coroner's Photo.....
So sad and so very long ago 1976...
How could these 2 people not be missed by someone, somewhere, in all this time?
Does anyone know the details of 'how' these 2 young people were killed?
where were they found in S.C, near the beaches or islands, near a college, apartments, in a city or back roads just WHERE in SC?....I noticed on the side of the picture it says Sumter, coroners office.
South Carolina has always had a lot of tourist for the beaches, fishing, boating, colleges as well as motorcycle rallys.
their height and weight and approx. ages, what were they wearing,
was it beach/summer cloths, swim suits, winter cloths, motorcycle cloths, work cloths, what type of clothing, expensive or average, shoes, jewelry, what's the details?
After 30 years it's time all the details get out, maybe a friend or family member will recognize them, unless they were from some other country..
kitbits
10-30-2008, 11:04 AM
So sad and so very long ago 1976...
How could these 2 people not be missed by someone, somewhere, in all this time?
Does anyone know the details of 'how' these 2 young people were killed?
where were they found in S.C, near the beaches or islands, near a college, apartments, in a city or back roads just WHERE in SC?....I noticed on the side of the picture it says Sumter, coroners office.
South Carolina has always had a lot of tourist for the beaches, fishing, boating, colleges as well as motorcycle rallys.
their height and weight and approx. ages, what were they wearing,
was it beach/summer cloths, swim suits, winter cloths, motorcycle cloths, work cloths, what type of clothing, expensive or average, shoes, jewelry, what's the details?
After 30 years it's time all the details get out, maybe a friend or family member will recognize them, unless they were from some other country..
hmmm...not sure if you saw this, but it had more of the specifics:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/index.html
MaryLiz
10-30-2008, 12:37 PM
So sad and so very long ago 1976...
How could these 2 people not be missed by someone, somewhere, in all this time?
Does anyone know the details of 'how' these 2 young people were killed?
where were they found in S.C, near the beaches or islands, near a college, apartments, in a city or back roads just WHERE in SC?....I noticed on the side of the picture it says Sumter, coroners office.
South Carolina has always had a lot of tourist for the beaches, fishing, boating, colleges as well as motorcycle rallys.
their height and weight and approx. ages, what were they wearing,
was it beach/summer cloths, swim suits, winter cloths, motorcycle cloths, work cloths, what type of clothing, expensive or average, shoes, jewelry, what's the details?
After 30 years it's time all the details get out, maybe a friend or family member will recognize them, unless they were from some other country..
Yes, there are several good articles throughout the thread about specifics. Kitbits posted the link to the very well done Crime Library story. The road they were found on though was a dirt road, off the beaten path. The type of road that probably only a local would know about.
Mysterylover
10-30-2008, 01:04 PM
hmmm...not sure if you saw this, but it had more of the specifics:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/index.html
Kitbits, Thank you. No, I had not seen the article. It was very informative, and answered many of the questions I had.
Let's hope with the internet and DNA the beautiful young people will be identified.
Too bad LE didn't take samples from the North Carolina man's CAR who owned the gun that was used to shot this couple. I believe he was their killer.
The 2 were found on a secluded Sumter County dirt road between Interstate 95 and S.C. 341.
The young girl, Jane Doe was,
5'5", 105 Lbs, brown hair, blue/green eyes, very long eye lashes, 18 to 20 years old,
pierced ears, no surgical scars, mole behind right leg (calf), Two small hair moles on left cheek, one small hair mole on right side of face.
No elaborate dental work. Missing upper and lower wisdom teeth on right. Has upper and lower wisdom teeth on left. Has fillings in all back teeth. If she were to smile, her teeth in the front would give an even appearance.
She was wearing a pair of Levi cut-off shorts, a pink knit halter that tied in the front, an unbleached muslin blouse, and a pair of wedge-heeled sandals, lavender, pink, and purple.
She was wearing three sterling silver rings described as Indian or Mexican costume jewelry. One was a band with red, white, and blue stones, one was an oblong black stone with three green flecks, and one was feather scroll with a rust and green stone.
The young male, John Doe,
6' 1/4", 155 lbs., brown hair, brown eyes, 18 to 22 years old but possibly older, 4" appendectomy scar, two 2" scars on right arm (shoulder area)
Very elaborate dental work with crowns and bridges. Crown on left front tooth, acrylic or porcelain. Fillings in most of upper teeth and has some missing teeth in top and bottom but noticeable in top back left. He is missing his wisdom teeth on the bottom in the back.
He was wearing faded Levi blue jeans,
a red T-shirt with "COOR'S America's fine light beer" on the front and "Camel Challenger GT Sebring 75" on the rear. The races are held in Florida.
A Bulova Accutron yellow gold watch, serial number H918803 was on his left arm and
a grey linde star ring in a 14 K yellow-gold mounting with the initials J.P.F. engraved inside the band was on his finger.
Had Grants Truck Stop matches in his pocket, from the mid-west......
They had been shot several times. An autopsy would later reveal both had been shot at close range in the back, chest and throat. The report also indicated the couple had been dead for less than 24 hours.
They had no money on them, but there were several clues that led investigators to believe that the couple might have been well-to-do or perhaps even from another country.
Investigators wondered if they had been hitchhiking cross country, or if they had been victims of a carjacking.
Mysterylover
10-30-2008, 01:26 PM
Yes they definitely look as though they may be related and I would not doubt that they are siblings.
What caught me was that they both share a smiliar if not the same natural arch of the eyebrow, their size and shape of their lips as well as the general shape of the philtrum are also virtualy identical.
A DNA test would answer this question and others about their ancestors, or possible country they can from ...would it be possible now?
Did LE keep the gun taken from the N.Carolina man?
Mysterylover
10-30-2008, 01:38 PM
Yes, there are several good articles throughout the thread about specifics.
Kitbits posted the link to the very well done Crime Library story.
The road they were found on though was a dirt road, off the beaten path.
The type of road that probably only a local would know about.
Mary-Beth,
This is the first I've heard or read anything about this sad case...
I believe their pictures did not make it to the right state or country Newspapers,
because someone would have recognized them from being in their class at SCHOOL, or college,.... wouldn't they have graduated in the "70's?
I suspect the killer pulled off the major highway on to the dirt road, just to shoot and rob the victims as he forced them out of his car, after midnight or later.
Can you post were I can read the articles you speak of?.. :detective:
MaedchenX
10-30-2008, 01:57 PM
A DNA test would answer this question and others about their ancestors, or possible country they can from ...would it be possible now?
I know I had read somewhere (doenetwork I believe) that the bodies had been exumed for DNA testing, the wait is agonizing. I hope they also pursue isotope analysis if possible so that their origins might be better established.
Mysterylover
10-30-2008, 02:04 PM
I know I had read somewhere (doenetwork I believe) that the bodies had been exumed for DNA testing, the wait is agonizing.
I hope they also pursue isotope analysis if possible so that their origins might be better established.
MaedchenX..That's good to hear..
MaryLiz
10-30-2008, 02:04 PM
Mary-Beth,
This is the first I've heard or read anything about this sad case...
I believe their pictures did not make it to the right state or country Newspapers,
because someone would have recognized them from high school, or college, wouldn't they have graduated in the "70's?
I suspect the killer pulled off the major highway on to the dirt road, just to shoot and rob the victims as he forced them out of his car, after midnight or later.
Can you post were I can read the articles you speak of?.. :detective:
If you go to the thread directly under this one, it says Mystery Couple Murdered South Carolina, Thread 2...go to page 5, post #108. There is a copy of the article that appeared last April in the National Post of Canada.
Also on that same thread, on page 3, post #72 is an article about the lone suspect they had in the case.
I think there are a few other ones from newspapers back in 1976 and over the years on anniversaries of the murders but I can't find them at the moment. If you have trouble finding them, let me know.
kitbits
10-31-2008, 05:54 AM
No probs, Letsthink...I really hope someone, someday recognises them--it's really bugging me to bits!
Also, I was thinking about that isotope test...would be great, were it possible.
And yeah...wish they'd hurry up with that DNA test...I'm sure I read on here that it was sent in 2007 to a lab in Texas that is backlogged with requests...frustrating!
Topaz
11-13-2008, 12:18 PM
I know this might sound silly, but is it possible they could be Spanish. Can you guys see a European look about them, especially a Spanish look?
Just a suggestion
Topaz
11-13-2008, 12:28 PM
I also realised something about John Doe's ring, that there are three names on it. I remember reading up on Spanish culture and they generally have three names, usually the first name and two surnames. I think the first surname tend to be the mothers maiden name.
Anyway, I realised that I may have posted in the wrong thread. So please feel free to move this post the correct one. I am still a newbie around here, so i was not sure where to post.
These suggestions may not be much help to you guys, but I just wanted to share my thoughts in case it does help?
Anubis
11-13-2008, 02:15 PM
I believe (based on looking at the photographs) that this was a Canadian couple. Her underarms and legs were not shaven. Neither was wearing underwear (sounds wierd but is fairly common in Canada/Europe). Also, there was no personal effects found with them so it seems to me this was a robbery. Also, the gun was found. Even though the serial number had been filed off, I wonder if they can do etch work (or have done) to reveal it. If the guy from the KOA campground was for real, I wonder why he took so long to come forward? Also, if it is true, and the young man's name was Jacques, and he was from Canada, it would imply Quebec or at least eastern Canada. If they did, in fact, come across country through Nebraska and across to SC, they would have passed through a lot of Indian territory which would explain her jewelry and the matchbooks in his pocket. I think it's pretty clear they were hitchhiking.
This case has always bothered me. Even if his parents had disowned him, my God, wouldn't you want to at the very least identify your dead son??
Topaz
11-15-2008, 12:07 AM
Thanks for explaining some facts about their case to me. I didn't know this beore I posted. I agree, I don't understand why their parents at least didn't come forward, even if they were adopted, someone still should have came forward. Very puzzling case...
Lizza
11-26-2008, 10:14 PM
Just temporary visit.
Maria Vasquez Buenos Aires, missing with boyfriend or brother, since 14 May 1976
KivaSupporter
11-26-2008, 10:26 PM
Just temporary visit.
Maria Vasquez Buenos Aires, missing with boyfriend or brother, since 14 May 1976
Very interesting! Would you please post a link. Thanks.
Wow, she looks like a match!
JaneInOz
11-26-2008, 10:53 PM
Just temporary visit.
Maria Vasquez Buenos Aires, missing with boyfriend or brother, since 14 May 1976
Hi you're not referring to this Maria Vasquez from Buenos Aires are you ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/1752960.stm
If you are she has been found dead but before she died she gave birth and her son was adopted out.
If you are not referring to her then WOW what are the chances of two girls same name same time going missing ! spooky
prd2bokie
11-26-2008, 11:11 PM
WOW!!!! That's the closest match I've ever seen!!! I hope the one that's been found isn't her. It would be great to solve this.
MaedchenX
11-26-2008, 11:28 PM
More pictures here of both Maria Marta Vasques & her husband Cesar Amadeo Lugones: http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/pancartas/13556.jpg
http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/
"Servini de Cubria is also investigating the location of a third child, the son of María Vásquez Ocampo y César Amadeo Lugones. Both Vásquez Ocampo and Amadeo Lugones were seen at the ESMA. Vásquez Ocampo was two months pregnant when she was kidnapped, and gave birth to a baby boy in December 1976, according to the testimony of former navy captain Alfredo Scilingo."
Some more info about MV & CAL from : http://eaaf.typepad.com/pdf/1996_1997/02Argentina96_97.pdf
Also, google books has an account of their apprehension: http://books.google.com/books?id=NtZ3EvNYxjYC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=cesar+Lugones+father&source=web&ots=Wd8vmyCfnf&sig=QcsQI_g9X9cemxCEcCABf7UrGSM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result
"An ESMA task force kinapped Monica Mignone the daughter of Lanusse's former education minister, Emilio Mignone, on May 14th 1976. She had been doing Catholic charity work in one of Buenos Aires's slums and also holding a consciousness-raising classes for the poor. On the same day another task-force picked up Maria Vasquez Ocampo, daughter of a diplomat and one of Maria's coworkers, as well as her husband, Cesar Aedeo Lugones....All attempts to locate these women by their fathers was frustrated."
Theoretically, as it was known to have happened at least once, I wonder if Maria and Amadeo might have escaped from the ESMA detention center, or possibly bribed their way out. The resemblance is eerie. This would be an even more tragic ending than I think anyone could have ever imagined. I know it would be unbelievable, unbelievable that they escaped death in Argentina only to be killed in the United States, but I will go on record now that I think this very well could be a match.
MaryLiz
11-26-2008, 11:36 PM
Wow, Maria really does look like Jane Doe. I wish we could see a closer picture to see if she has the moles that were so prominent on Jane Doe's face. I am trying to picture her boyfriend with longer hair and w/o glasses to see a better resemblance to John Doe.
Someone e-mailed me a long time ago about the Dirty War in Argentina going on in the 70s, and a possible connection to the Mystery Couple. I never had a chance to look into further. I did say a long time ago though that I thought both of them had a South American look to them. I just haven't searched much in that area because of the comment John Doe made to the guy at the KOA Campground about being from Canada. Of course, that doesn't mean it's necessarily true, it could have just been a story he told the guy.
Good find about Maria.
prd2bokie
11-26-2008, 11:38 PM
Okay, I'm not sure what all this says but when I looked up Cesar's name and images, this is what came up.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/pancartas/13756.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/cgi-bin/memoria/wxis%3FIsisScript%3Dcampos.xis%26base%3Dunido%26ex presion%3Dte%3Dpancartas&usg=__NGV53dN9F3ahT--I2wOXVo8BZos=&h=2248&w=1632&sz=405&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=44wQFt11th2Z8M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3DC%25C3%25A9sar%2BAmadeo%2BLugones%26u m%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7SUNA%26sa%3DN
prd2bokie
11-26-2008, 11:46 PM
I checked it out some more and I don't think it means anything.
MaedchenX
11-26-2008, 11:49 PM
Okay, I'm not sure what all this says but when I looked up Cesar's name and images, this is what came up.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/pancartas/13756.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/cgi-bin/memoria/wxis%3FIsisScript%3Dcampos.xis%26base%3Dunido%26ex presion%3Dte%3Dpancartas&usg=__NGV53dN9F3ahT--I2wOXVo8BZos=&h=2248&w=1632&sz=405&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=44wQFt11th2Z8M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3DC%25C3%25A9sar%2BAmadeo%2BLugones%26u m%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7SUNA%26sa%3DN
Hi PRD, the first link of my post is to the page on Maria & Cesar that is listed at that particular site, which appears to be a commemoration of victims. If you scroll down you will see the names listed along side of the images, the man on the blue posterboard is not Cesar Amadeo Lugones but Ricardo Cesar Poce. Just to clarify :blowkiss:
The link for Maria & her Cesar at that same site is here (http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/pancartas/13556.jpg)
MaryLiz
11-26-2008, 11:51 PM
Okay, I'm not sure what all this says but when I looked up Cesar's name and images, this is what came up.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/pancartas/13756.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/cgi-bin/memoria/wxis%3FIsisScript%3Dcampos.xis%26base%3Dunido%26ex presion%3Dte%3Dpancartas&usg=__NGV53dN9F3ahT--I2wOXVo8BZos=&h=2248&w=1632&sz=405&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=44wQFt11th2Z8M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3DC%25C3%25A9sar%2BAmadeo%2BLugones%26u m%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7SUNA%26sa%3DN
Maria's husband was Cesar Lugones and the one you found was Ricardo Cesar Poce, so I think it's a different person. Interestingly, Poce LOOKS like the South Carolina John Doe!
Also, after reading further it says in one of the articles that Maria gave birth to her son in December 1976 so it definitely isn't our Jane Doe, as they were murdered in August 1976. The resemblance is uncanny though.
prd2bokie
11-26-2008, 11:53 PM
I know. I was all excited until I read further. Dang it.
JaneInOz
11-26-2008, 11:53 PM
Can no one see me ?
I posted a link to the article.
Jane Doe can not be Maria because Maria has been found and identified
Unless it is a different maria (as I said on my previous post)
MaryLiz
11-26-2008, 11:56 PM
Can no one see me ?
I posted a link to the article.
Jane Doe can not be Maria because Maria has been found and identified
Unless it is a different maria (as I said on my previous post)
Yes, I'm sorry Jane, I was just going to post something about the article you posted the link to. I read the articles out of sequence. Thanks for posting the link. Next time I'll read everything in order...LOL... I just got too excited also thinking it could have been a match. :)
prd2bokie
11-26-2008, 11:58 PM
I see you. I was just hoping it's not the same one. If you look at the last picture at the bottom, the guy with glasses has very full lips like Jock. Maed said they might have been kidnapped twice.
JaneInOz
11-27-2008, 12:04 AM
Lol I was just getting a tad paranoid thinking everyone has me on ignore ! lol
So our Jane Doe isn't Maria.....
Maria from the link I gave was kidnapped and killed but before that gave birth and the son given for adoption...
UNLESS there were TWO Maria's in 1976 that went missing ?
After all the photo in my link looks different to the girl in the photo that was posted to start with (slightly)
MaedchenX
11-27-2008, 12:07 AM
Can no one see me ?
I posted a link to the article.
Jane Doe can not be Maria because Maria has been found and identified
Unless it is a different maria (as I said on my previous post)
I read the article, not sure where you see that she has been identified? Maybe I missed it? From what I can tell she is still "disappeared" and presumed dead. Most of the information on their fates, I gather, is based on the testimony of individuals. I think this deserves further investigation.
ETA: From the caption beneath the photo-
"Maria Vasquez disappeared without trace - but what about her baby?"
I think people assume she is dead ("without a trace") there is no way to verify without her remains.
prd2bokie
11-27-2008, 12:09 AM
That's what I was reading too. They don't have a body.
MaedchenX
11-27-2008, 12:45 AM
To compare (sorry for large size):
http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp9/maedchenx/janedoe.jpg
http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp9/maedchenx/jondoe-1.jpg
I find the physical similarities chilling. Someone tell me I am insane and to snap out of it, because I am already trying to fit the peices together of how this could possibly have happened. And is it just me or does it appear that MMVO, like Jane Doe, have two moles around her mouth? Am I hallucinating?
prd2bokie
11-27-2008, 08:44 AM
I saw a mole on her left side (Jane) and saw a mole on Maria's right. I really think it could be a match though. What could be the harm in finding out? Sometimes things are hard to see in pictures.
JaneInOz
11-27-2008, 08:55 AM
OH GOOD GOD I think you have something
I have to go to bed I will re look at the article I read - Im sure the mother said the daughter was dead
will get back to you in the AM
The girl really looks like the dead Jane Doe
I think the nose may be a bit different on the boy ?
Chat tommorow x
MaryLiz
11-27-2008, 01:43 PM
I can't believe the resemblance. I THINK I see a mole but not sure. I wish Cesar didn't have glasses on so we could see his eyebrows. Jock's eyebrows are so bushy.
It did say in the article JaneInOz first posted that the mother found out Maria had been murdered but I can't find how she was ID'd either. I also read last night when I was going through the articles posted on here that Maria had given birth to her son in December 1976 and the Mystery Couple were murdered in August 1976, so I thought that would definitely rule Maria out. But I just went through the articles again and I can't find where it says she had her baby in December '76 at all now! I must had thought I saw that or something....:confused:
Anyway, I can't believe how much Maria looks like our Jane Doe!
JaneInOz
11-27-2008, 06:01 PM
Ok so on the link I posted on the previous page
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71448&page=2
The girl in that pic also named Maria Vasquez looks a little different to the Maria that Lizza posted.
The article says
[B]
Marta's daughter Maria disappeared in 1976. After 8 years of searching and hoping, Marta finally learned that Maria had been killed. But she also learned that before Maria was murdered, she had given birth to a son who was subsequently adopted. After a long and frustrating search, Marta Vasquez is now sure she has found her missing grandson - a young man in his early 20s. But when she arrived, unannounced, at the office where he works, she was unprepared for his reaction.[/B
If she knows she has been killed / murdered then there must be a body ? yeah?
But Gosh when the comparison pics put up side by side by MaedchenX its spookily the same.
Marias nose etc compared to Jane Doe
The boy look at his lips on the Missing Man in the middle with glasses and then look at the lips on the John Doe body (not sketch)
see how the lip curls up on the left ?
So does one send these pics in the the LE and say what do you think LOL
If so go ahead and do it someone ! because they do look very very similar
(its just the whole mother saying Maria was murdered etc - but maybe its two different Marias?)
JaneInOz
11-27-2008, 06:07 PM
Here is this page !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCesar%2BLugones%26hl%3Den%26client%3D firefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DaSV
Caesar disappeared May 14th 1976
This was a page in foreign language that you hit the Transalte this page and it came up with this ...
Lay Catholics were militants. Estaban casados y María Marta tenía un mes de embarazo. And Mary were married Marta had a month of pregnancy.
Fueron secuestrados en su domicilio (Emilio Mitre No 1258 piso 11o departamento "D" de Capital) en la madrugada del 14 de mayo de 1976 por personal de la Armada uniformado. They were abducted from their home (Emilio No. 1258 Miter 11th floor apartment "D" Capital) in the early hours of May 14, 1976 by uniformed personnel from the Navy. Ese mismo día desaparecieron los militantes laicos Beatriz Carbonell de Pérez Weiss, María Esther Lorusso Lammle, Horacio Pérez Weiss, Mónica María Candelaria Mignone y Mónica Quinteiro That same day the militants lay disappeared Beatriz Perez Carbonell Weiss, Mary Esther LORUSSO Lammle, Horacio Perez Weiss, Monica Maria Candelaria Mignone and Monica Quinteiro
Pudo saberse por personas que compartieron su cautiverio y luego fueron liberados, que María Marta y César permanecieron detenidos-desaparecidos en la Escuela de Mecánica de la Armada. Could know by people who shared his captivity and then released, that Mary and Martha Caesar arrested and missing remained at the School of Mechanical Engineering of the Navy. Allí, según el ex marino Adolfo Scilingo, María Marta dio a luz un varón a mediados de enero There, according to former Marine Adolfo Scilingo, Marta Maria gave birth to a boy in mid-January
La pareja y su hijo continúan desaparecidos. The couple and their son are still missing.
Blah when you copy and paste it screws up the translation - just hit the link and you will see what it says better
Now its interesting that it says they were abducted 14th May and our dead Jane Do and John Do were found August but on that page it says it "was reported by marine that Maria gave birth January (1977) "
What if that was a LIE ?? a cover up that they were infact murdered OR they escaped and then were murdered But then was there any report that Jane doe was pregnant ? gave birth ? anything ?
This was another person kidnapped at the same time http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCesar%2BLugones%26hl%3Den%26client%3D firefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DaSV
KivaSupporter
11-27-2008, 07:02 PM
Today I read a number of articles written in Spanish.
They all say the couple was arrested but their bodies were never found. They are missing and presumed dead. As far as the baby is concerned, this information is coming from only one person, former Marine Adolfo Scilingo. Apparently, he had stated the baby was born in December and on another occasion he had said the baby was born in January.
Nobody knows for sure.
Mysterylover
11-27-2008, 07:03 PM
Here is this page !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCesar%2BLugones%26hl%3Den%26client%3D firefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DaSV
Caesar disappeared May 14th 1976
This was a page in foreign language that you hit the Transalte this page and it came up with this ...
Blah when you copy and paste it screws up the translation - just hit the link and you will see what it says better
Now its interesting that it says they were abducted 14th May and our dead
Jane Do and John Do were found August but on that page it says it "was
reported by marine that Maria gave birth January (1977) "
What IF that was a LIE ??
a cover up that they were infact murdered OR they escaped and then were
murdered But then was there any report that Jane doe was pregnant ? gave birth ? anything ?
This was another person kidnapped at the same time http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCesar%2BLugones%26hl%3Den%26client%3D firefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DaSV
Did the Mother ever see any proof of the deaths or was it just 'assumed'? IF NOT, it could have been a LIE..
Remember our Jane Doe and Jock Doe did show up just 141 miles from Fort Bragg at the Santee, SC , KOA.....dressing like American race fans.
IF they were smuggled out of their country, whether on military or public airlines, would they have had passports?...
Tracie5
11-27-2008, 07:28 PM
Wow, I think the resemblance is uncanny!
Taken from John Doe's vital stats page -
"They had no money on them, but there were several clues that led investigators to believe that the couple might have been well-to-do or perhaps even from another country."
And -
"Officials with Interpol as well as U.S. Customs investigators and immigration authorities also had been alerted. Contacts were made with agencies in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, and in the Mediterranean."
Something made LE think that they were perhaps of Latin descent.
The US is such a melting pot of people - What made LE think they could be from another country?
JaneInOz
11-27-2008, 07:35 PM
Today I read a number of articles written in Spanish.
They all say the couple was arrested but their bodies were never found. They are missing and presumed dead. As far as the baby is concerned, this information is coming from only one person, former Marine Adolfo Scilingo. Apparently, he had stated the baby was born in December and on another occasion he had said the baby was born in January.
Nobody knows for sure.
Kiva that is what I said in my post before...It could Easily be a Lie
MaedchenX
11-27-2008, 07:38 PM
I think I read where you are going with this Mysterylover. Now, I am no conspiracy theorist, and I really don't want to open any can of worms on what is surely a very sensitive subject for those family members of the disappeared who are still alive. Specifically, Maria's Mother and brother whom it seems are directly involved with the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madres_de_la_Plaza_de_Mayo)
It is my understanding that the circumstances of Argentina's Dirty War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_war) are still sensitive. Even though both the U.S. and Argentina have declassified documents relating to the disappearances and other activities, I am not sure how far I want to take this train of thought.
That said, some interesting information that I scoured up last night from various websites;
-Cesar was a Dr. of Veterinary Medicine
-Maria's Father was a diplomat who tried to have her released
-Speech given by Maria's mother to Human Rights Council(http://www.ngocongo.org/files/ngo_speaker_hls__marta_vasquez_eng.pdf), she seems like an incredible woman who has devoted her life to protecting the rights of others, I would hate for her to have to go through the kind of pain she suffered again, if there is any validity to this connection, and even if there is none.
-Declassified docs (http://www.desclasificados.com.ar/index.php?ref=http://www.desclasificados.com.ar/i.php?i=1605 <This site allows you to search for names, I can only barely navigate it as I have no romance language experience. A little Latin can only get you so far.)
I can see this as being a very difficult avenue to follow that will be met with much resistance because the circumstances are almost beyond belief, and would raise many uncomfotable questions for all parties. I would hate for this to bring any further pain to those involved.
JaneInOz
11-27-2008, 08:12 PM
On the link where the mother talks about Maria she says she has got in contact with the boy she believes to be Marias Son that was adopted but he does not want to know her.
According to that other translated page it said that she gave birth and that Maria and Caesar and baby dissapeared!
And as I said it was only one persons testimony that she gave birth
I wish the *adopted son* would consent to Dna for Marias Mother - it would certainly clear up a few things
Also from reading about their deaths ie 2 in the back and then turned over and one straight under the chin - it certainly sounds *professional* shall we say
JaneInOz
11-27-2008, 08:16 PM
I think I read where you are going with this Mysterylover. Now, I am no conspiracy theorist, and I really don't want to open any can of worms on what is surely a very sensitive subject for those family members of the disappeared who are still alive. Specifically, Maria's Mother and brother whom it seems are directly involved with the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madres_de_la_Plaza_de_Mayo)
It is my understanding that the circumstances of Argentina's Dirty War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_war) are still sensitive. Even though both the U.S. and Argentina have declassified documents relating to the disappearances and other activities, I am not sure how far I want to take this train of thought.
That said, some interesting information that I scoured up last night from various websites;
-Cesar was a Dr. of Veterinary Medicine
-Maria's Father was a diplomat who tried to have her released
-Speech given by Maria's mother to Human Rights Council(http://www.ngocongo.org/files/ngo_speaker_hls__marta_vasquez_eng.pdf), she seems like an incredible woman who has devoted her life to protecting the rights of others, I would hate for her to have to go through the kind of pain she suffered again, if there is any validity to this connection, and even if there is none.
-Declassified docs (http://www.desclasificados.com.ar/index.php?ref=http://www.desclasificados.com.ar/i.php?i=1605 <This site allows you to search for names, I can only barely navigate it as I have no romance language experience. A little Latin can only get you so far.)
I can see this as being a very difficult avenue to follow that will be met with much resistance because the circumstances are almost beyond belief, and would raise many uncomfotable questions for all parties. I would hate for this to bring any further pain to those involved.
It sounds so horrible :(
The military has admitted that over 9,000 of those kidnapped are still unaccounted for, but the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo say that the number is closer to 30,000, 500 of those given to military related families and the remaining number dead. The numbers are hard to determine due to the secrecy surrounding the abductions. Three of the founders of the mothers of the Plaza de Mayo have also "disappeared". After the fall of the military regime, a civilian government commission put the number of disappeared at close to 11,000.
MaryLiz
11-27-2008, 08:35 PM
The Dirty War in Argentina from the 70s was absolutely horrible. Actually, it was ShadeTreePI who posts on the Mystery Couple thread who e-mailed me months ago when she found out about the Dirty War and was thinking of it in regards to the Mystery Couple. I haven't read as much in-depth about it as I would like to, I hope to investigate it more a little later. But I think it certainly is worth looking into, especially with Jane Doe looking so much like Maria Vasquez.
And there are also varying dates of when Maria gave birth so I still think it's worth checking out.
The Dirty War is still a very painful issue from what I've read, and rightfully so. It only happened 30 years ago, still lots of people around who remember it and had family members killed or go missing. It should definitely be approached very delicately as far as investigating this to see if there could be any relation to the Does.
MB, you are right about Shadetree. She has done extensive research on the dirty war... hopefully she'll chime in.
FWIW the SC Jane Doe had never given birth. This is per the autopsy/coroner in Sumter.
JaneInOz
11-28-2008, 12:29 AM
MB, you are right about Shadetree. She has done extensive research on the dirty war... hopefully she'll chime in.
FWIW the SC Jane Doe had never given birth. This is per the autopsy/coroner in Sumter.
That puts paid to the theory that either it is Maria and the man who said She gave birth was a elaborate lie to conceal the truth and off put people OR
its the wrong person
And On the Dirty war - it couldnt have been more aptly named could it
*Shakes head in disgust*
prd2bokie
11-28-2008, 10:34 AM
I found this place that has pictures of people missing. I don't think anybody has posted it.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/smallm.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html&usg=__JIAhl80PEjiAubEMYgS63W1y5uk=&h=125&w=80&sz=4&hl=en&start=27&um=1&tbnid=j2oxKSz5qH87xM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=58&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMaria%2BMarta%2BVasquez%26start%3D20% 26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microso ft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7SUNA%26sa%3DN
MaryLiz
11-28-2008, 01:50 PM
I found this place that has pictures of people missing. I don't think anybody has posted it.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/smallm.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html&usg=__JIAhl80PEjiAubEMYgS63W1y5uk=&h=125&w=80&sz=4&hl=en&start=27&um=1&tbnid=j2oxKSz5qH87xM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=58&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMaria%2BMarta%2BVasquez%26start%3D20% 26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microso ft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7SUNA%26sa%3DN
My gosh, I can't believe there were THAT many people killed or missing. I was absolutely chilled looking at all those faces together in that memorial. I posted a link below to an article from the BBC in 2002 that says the "official investigation" concluded there were about 9,000 people killed. Human Rights organizations put the number at 30,000!
Thanks for posting that memorial with all the pictures, prd2bokie.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2206534.stm
JaneInOz
11-28-2008, 06:11 PM
I found this place that has pictures of people missing. I don't think anybody has posted it.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/smallm.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html&usg=__JIAhl80PEjiAubEMYgS63W1y5uk=&h=125&w=80&sz=4&hl=en&start=27&um=1&tbnid=j2oxKSz5qH87xM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=58&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMaria%2BMarta%2BVasquez%26start%3D20% 26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microso ft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7SUNA%26sa%3DN
Thank you for posting that I saw it in a small frame on wikipedia and couldnt find it large
BUT I have found the translated page of it
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DofC
When you click on the pic it tells you about the person
Its not the best translations but it gives you an idea. The red cross means they were found DEAD / MURDERED
Its just so so so sad :( and so freaking WRONG
God Just look at this story http://72.14.235.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/m/moran/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/muro2.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DofC&usg=ALkJrhi0VPMnDwIkk7W0HLMnD9H7isALpQ
JaneInOz
11-29-2008, 06:11 AM
Im not sure why there are two threads running but have you seen this on the other thread ?
http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/photos/gallery/index.html?id=407163
These photos are even MORE of the persons face to compare to Maria and Caesar
I havent done a side by side - but what do you think ?
prd2bokie
11-29-2008, 12:41 PM
I was wondering what the red cross meant. I'm glad you found a translated page. At first I thought the page could have been about anything, but a couple of things made me think it was about the war.
prd2bokie
11-29-2008, 01:05 PM
I just did a side by side and Maria and Jane look like twins. I see some similarities between the men but not like the women.
elliottness
12-15-2008, 07:04 PM
Were there any reports of two missing teenagers or young adults in this area at the time? Does anyone know if there are old newspaper archives online from this time period that might have this information?
elliottness
12-15-2008, 07:17 PM
I also realised something about John Doe's ring, that there are three names on it. I remember reading up on Spanish culture and they generally have three names, usually the first name and two surnames. I think the first surname tend to be the mothers maiden name.
Anyway, I realised that I may have posted in the wrong thread. So please feel free to move this post the correct one. I am still a newbie around here, so i was not sure where to post.
These suggestions may not be much help to you guys, but I just wanted to share my thoughts in case it does help?Isn't this true for Mexican culture, too?
elliottness
12-15-2008, 07:25 PM
Hey, everyone! Check out this link:
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/198umsc.html
The most interesting part is this tidbit:
"Months after the homicide, an employee of KOA campgrounds near Santee, S.C., called authorities, believing he had earlier made friends with the dead man, who went by the name 'Jock' according to documents in the case file.
Jock, or more likely, Jacques, stayed a few days at the campgrounds with his young female companion, then left for Florida. He and his girlfriend stopped at the campgrounds again on their way back.
The two men became friends. While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine. He was taking a vacation of sorts, traveling the country aimlessly.
Before leaving, he tried to pawn an expensive ring to the employee, who later told authorities that the ring had looked a lot like the one found on the mystery man.
Inside his pocket was a book of Grants Truck Stop matches, which could only be found in Idaho, New Mexico and Nebraska. Authorities think Jacques passed through these places on his travels."
elliottness
12-15-2008, 07:33 PM
Here is another link to Canadian physicians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Canadian_physicians
If Jacque's father was a prominent doctor in Canada then we might be able to find some biographical information on him that would mention him having a son named Jacques.
Mysterylover
12-16-2008, 08:52 AM
Elliottness...Good find.. this doctor was on the list with the first name Jacques...age would be right to have a grown son in 1976.
QUOTE:
Jacques Genest (born May 29, 1919, Montreal, Quebec) is a Canadian physician and scientist.
[edit]Honours
In 1963, he was awarded the Gairdner Foundation International Award.
In 1967, he was made a Companion of the Order of Canada.
In 1968, he was awarded the Royal Society of Canada's Flavelle Medal.
In 1991, he was made a Grand Officer of the National Order of Quebec.
In 1994, he was inducted into the Canadian Medical Hall of Fame.
In 1996, he was awarded the Quebec government's Prix Armand-Frappier.
[edit]External links
Jacques Genest at The Canadian Encyclopedia
This biography related to medicine in Canada is a stub. You can help
Wikipedia by expanding it.
Categories: 1919 births | Living people | Canadian physicians | Canadian Medical Hall of Fame | Canadian medical researchers | Fellows of the Royal Society of Canada | French Quebecers | Grand Officers of the National Order of Quebec | Companions of the Order of Canada | People from Montreal | Canadian medical biography stubs
elliottness
12-16-2008, 12:55 PM
Elliottness...Good find.. this doctor was on the list with the first name Jacques...age would be right to have a grown son in 1976.
QUOTE:
Jacques Genest (born May 29, 1919, Montreal, Quebec) is a Canadian physician and scientist.
[edit]Honours
In 1963, he was awarded the Gairdner Foundation International Award.
In 1967, he was made a Companion of the Order of Canada.
In 1968, he was awarded the Royal Society of Canada's Flavelle Medal.
In 1991, he was made a Grand Officer of the National Order of Quebec.
In 1994, he was inducted into the Canadian Medical Hall of Fame.
In 1996, he was awarded the Quebec government's Prix Armand-Frappier.
[edit]External links
Jacques Genest at The Canadian Encyclopedia
This biography related to medicine in Canada is a stub. You can help
Wikipedia by expanding it.
Categories: 1919 births | Living people | Canadian physicians | Canadian Medical Hall of Fame | Canadian medical researchers | Fellows of the Royal Society of Canada | French Quebecers | Grand Officers of the National Order of Quebec | Companions of the Order of Canada | People from Montreal | Canadian medical biography stubsI already looked at this person. My gut feeling tells me that the unidentified man's name is Jacques Paul or Jacques Pierre. I believe that his initials are JPF as identified on the ring that he wore. A lot of French men have the name Pierre so I'm guessing it could be Jacque Pierre. Again, this is pure speculation but I'd focus on prominent French or Canadian doctors whose last name begins with the letter "F."
vtgirl
01-07-2009, 02:58 PM
I found this missing 19 yr. old woman on the Jane Doe network at the following link
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1298dffl.html
Mysterylover
01-18-2009, 07:13 PM
I just did a side by side and Maria and Jane look like twins. I see some similarities between the men but not like the women.
prd2bokie...I agree, the shape and thickness of their eyebrows are identical..Maria Vasquez Buenos Aires, missing with boyfriend or brother, since 14 May 1976
These 2 females look like twins or sisters...imo
justthinkin
01-18-2009, 08:31 PM
prd2bokie & Mystery, I third it. They look like twins except wouldn't Maria be too old? She looks older than Jane Doe to me.
vtgirl, Rogers has a 3" scar on her neck. Doesn't match up with SC Jane Doe. I looked, and looked at Rogers myself. She went missing after SC Jane was dead, but that doesn't bother me. A girl with a 3" scar....probably no one kept close tabs on her.
I guess I'm going to harp on the disparity of the photos 'til I get some answers or some forensic artist takes pity on us, and does yet another sketch of each, based on the roadside photos, and the mouth open, head shot only photos.
Venom Goose
01-18-2009, 10:39 PM
Personally, I believe they're from Canada, most likely Quebec, considering the man's name of Jock/Jacques. I wish this was in Canadian papers or maybe even featured on The Fifth Estate. That might generate some clues.
justthinkin
01-19-2009, 05:41 PM
I found a famous Canadian physician who looks like our UID Jock. Has this been covered before elsewhere on WS? Can I mention a deceased person's name without getting banned? Can I mention the whole name in two separate posts? There's gotta be a way to get this out there.
Cymro
01-19-2009, 05:50 PM
If Maria is said to have given birth in December 1976, logically she ought to have been pregnant from March 1976. Would people around her have been aware of her pregnancy at the time of her disappearance in May?
She could have miscarried or had an abortion (especially as a result of mistreatment in detenion) but if Maria were Jane Doe, she'd have been pregnant within the last three months at most, and probably still pregnant at the time of her death. AFAIK there has been no comment on Maria's status.
I do think however that the disappeared of Argentina or other south American regimes may explain why there has been no missing persons report for a couple that surely would have been missed by someone. In that environment, a politically conscious couple that disappeared without a trace would have been assumed to have been taken by security services even if there were another explanation - and even if the security services denied doing so, it would be very dangerous to draw attention to the case even if you believed them.
Mysterylover
01-19-2009, 07:21 PM
Guys,
With the two 2-inch scars on Jacques shoulder, could he have played Ice Hockey in Canada?
I suspect some of his teeth were knocked out and/or injured in whatever sport he played..crown on front tooth.
aficionado:
a person who likes, knows about, and appreciates a usually fervently pursued interest or activity.....:Banane49:
Quote:
Unidentified White Male
Located on August 9, 1976 in Sumter, South Carolina.
An autopsy showed that the victim had been shot at close range in the back, chest and throat.
The couple had been dead for less than 24 hours.
Vital Statistics
Estimated age: 18 - 22 years old but possibly older.
Approximate Height and Weight: 6'1/4"; 150 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Brown eyes; brown hair.
Two 2-inch scars on his right shoulder area.... 4" appendectomy scar.
Tall and athletic looking.
Although both the woman and man were white, investigators described their skin as smooth, with olive undertones.
The man in particular was tall and athletic looking, possibly an aficionado of contact sports, judging by the suggestive scars on the BACK of his shoulder.
Clothing: He was wearing a pair of faded Levi blue jeans, a red t-shirt with Coors America's light beer on the front and Camel Challenger G-T Sebring 75 across the back.
It most likely came from the 1975 Coor's sponsored Sebring Races in Florida.
DNA: 6/2007 body exhumed for DNA testing.
Dentals: Available. Extensive dental work. Very elaborate dental work with crowns and bridges. Crown on left front tooth, acrylic or porcelain. Fillings in most of upper teeth and has some missing teeth in top and bottom but noticeable in top back left. He is missing his wisdom teeth on the bottom in the back.
justthinkin
01-20-2009, 10:06 PM
Does anyone have a clear black and white crime scene photo? The one I have is of poor quality, and the woman's head is blurred beyond recognition.
AMP1979
01-21-2009, 08:08 AM
Injuries that required teeth to be replaced and left scars on shoulders could also have been caused by car racing (wrecks).
JaneInOz
01-21-2009, 08:25 AM
Hi
I know i have been quiet in here but I have been reading both threads.
Although I still like the argentina angle for these two dear souls... the other thread that is going re these two has a guy whose likeness to jock is pretty amazing
BUT the one thing about jock is his hair is a definite side part
justthinkin
01-22-2009, 09:09 AM
Hi Jane,
I don't know about that part being right. In the morgue photo, his hair has been parted on the side,
but in looking closer, his hair is awfully uneven, one side much longer than the other. I'm not sure
how to account for that. I read that he had shoulder length hair, and in the lousy photo I have of
the crime scene, his hair does look that long, but it also looks bushy.
Here's something else that's really interesting. If you take the retouched morgue photo of Jock Doe
with his "blue" eyes open, and change the eyes to dark brown, you get a very different looking Jock/
Jacques Doe, I don't know who did the eyes open photos, but I've never seen Jock listed as having
any other eye color than brown. I think most likely he had dark brown eyes if you can rely on the
sketches at all.
glitterghost
03-11-2009, 11:57 AM
Now that is a serious resemblance. Can anyone do a side by side of the photos? I dont have Photoshop or else I would. I see the similairty in the jaw area the most. Too bad the long lost son is uncooperative b/c if he did a dna match VS the dead woman found in SC it would reveal if this is her or not.
Roselvr
03-16-2009, 11:40 AM
I'm gonna add this here because I don't see them in this post.
I found these 2 images, thought I left open where I found this one but must have closed it. I did save it..
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5794/southcarolinacouple.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=southcarolinacouple.jpg)
Then there is this version which I wish I could find larger
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5584/12johnjanedoecrimes.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=12johnjanedoecrimes.jpg)
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/12johnjanedoecrimes.jpg/1/w200.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img90/12johnjanedoecrimes.jpg/1/)
here is the link to enlarged version of the above, and includes dental charts. **WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES***
http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/photos/gallery/index.html?id=407163
These are crime scene photos, so definitely be forewarned about the graphic nature
I'm not seeing the resemblance between these two, I think they were boyfriend and girlfriend. Jane Doe's lips are much thinner than John's; her nose is thinner too and of a completely different shape. They both have brown hair, but that's where the similaries end in my opinion. John has wide, strong features, while Jane's are thinner and more delicate.
webrocket
12-21-2009, 09:23 PM
I never heard of this couple before. Having looked at the pictures, the comments and the links, I have a slightly different take of this couple.
I believe they were foreigners. Their resemblance to some of the Argentines is interesting in that most people in Argentina are an ethnic mix of Spanish and Italian blood. Argentine women, especialy of the upper classes, are very beauty conscious. I do not believe the couple is from Argentina, however, for two reasons. One, if they had just fled from a brutal military regime in their home country, I doubt that they would be driving or hitchhiking around the United States. Two, while Argentine customs may have changed over the years I cannot imagine an Argentine woman not shaving her legs.
I do not believe they are Italian nationals either. If the initials on the watch are in fact the man's, the letter J is not customarily used in the Italian language. John is Gianni. Joseph is Giuseppe. The month of June is Giungno.
The olive colored complexion certainly implies the Mediterranean area which would exclude their being Northern, Central or Eastern Europeans. I doubt based on their complexions that they were French Canadians.
This, in my book, leaves us with Spaniards, Portuguese or Mediterreanan French. I do not know what the customs of women were back then, but I suspect French women were the group least likely of the three to have shaved their legs back then. (the man was clean shaven so it is not that they did not have any razors at their disposal). The French ancestry would include former colonialists in North Africa.
So the question still remains how did this couple (probably French) of comfortable background get to the US, meander about and meet a violent death without anyone back home worrying about them?
webrocket
12-22-2009, 08:57 AM
I misstated one fact. The initials were not engraved on the man's watch, rather the ring.
As for the watch, I thought it was odd that they could not trace the serial number on the watch. This website provides an explanation:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~fotoplot/accdate.htm
If the information on this page is accurate, the serial numbers came from Swiss made Bulova Accutrons and there was no registry made of the serial numbers.
The ring was a synthetic sapphire made by the Linde Air Products Co which made the gems in Indiana. That does not mean the ring was purchased there. The company closed the Indiana plant in 1974. (I do not know if they continued to make the gems at another facility but it could imply that the man owned the ring for a few years before his death)
Finally, I think the man from KOA probably was telling the truth. My hunch that they were French did not include the KOA guy's information. They could have traveled from Mediterranean France to Quebec first before coming to the US. Perhaps the KOA guy mistook Canada for Cannes which is on the French Riviera.
In any event, I think the answer to their identity is probably to be found in Southern France. If the family was looking for them, any bulletins would have been in French long before the development of the internet so that could explain the absence of any matching missing persons reports online.
mistagee
07-10-2010, 09:51 PM
I do not believe these are Argentineans at all. Having family in Argentina, I can assure you that all women there shave, and that jewelry was not common for that time period. They also do not match the proposed photos. I believe they are French Canadians or Europeans. No one has said that they might be German, and they could very well be as many Germans do have those features as well. They might even have been involved in drug trafficking, which could explain the execution type murders. However, the likely scenario is tourist and hitching around the area. I cant believe no one from those tourist areas have recognized them. I think Canada may hold the key to resolving this case. They could also be American, as some hippies of the time didnt shave their legs either.
Stephani
07-30-2010, 01:29 PM
I find it so strange that the murderer didn't try to hide the bodies...just pulling them back into the brush would of probably left them undiscovered for some time I would think. They are just literally right in the road. Now, I do see a familial resemblance, not saying they couldn't just be friends or lovers. I don't know why I say this, but they do look like they are not from the US...
Dublin
08-03-2010, 03:59 PM
Not sure if this is the correct place to make a post but here goes.
I read on Doenetwork.org that the t-shirt worn by the male victim possibly came from the Coors races in Florida, but the 1975 race in the Camel GT Series was held in Leguna Secca, CA.
Mapping the route from Leguna Secca, CA to Grant's Truck Stop in Lupton, AZ is a pretty straight route.
I haven't yet researched the date the 1975 race to estimate the time
between the race and when the bodies were found.
Sorry if this information has already been posted somewhere.
parakeet
09-13-2010, 05:01 PM
Does anyone know if the DNA results on these 2 are back yet? Were they confirmed to be related or not?
Has the poster in the other thread had anymore discussions with Verna?
I was born & raised in Charleston, SC- not far from where this happened. I was born 2 years after these murders. I asked my mother if she remembered, and she said that was during her senior year in college, so she wasn't paying attention to the news. Anyways, my mom is an interlibrary loan specialist at a university. Her job is to locate and get copies of hard-to-find books and articles from all over the world. She can find the most obscure stuff. So if anybody has any newspaper articles about murders they need help locating, I can ask my mom to find them. I was thinking about getting her to find me copies of every article written about these 2.
parakeet
09-13-2010, 07:47 PM
Perhaps the initials engraved into the ring are not his, but hers. I've known a few people to engrave their significant other's name or initials into a wedding band or a special ring. They may even be the initials of somebody else special in his life- a mother, a best friend or an ex-girlfriend.
I do not believe these two were hitchhiking. The shoes Jane doe was wearing are not practical for long-distance walking. Maybe they picked up a hitchhiker and he shot them to steal their car.
I wonder if LE had gone to the media to ask if anybody who had driven that route the night of the murders had seen a hitchhiker. did they ask if there were customers at the fruit stand that may have seen these 2?
Maybe the perp was somebody known to them. they may have picked up somebody days or weeks before this happened and just rode around with the guy. Or it could be that one or both knew him from way back. I suppose if we all think up a million different scenarios, we'll eventually hit the nail on the head.
RubyRed
09-15-2010, 06:53 PM
Does anyone know if the DNA results on these 2 are back yet? Were they confirmed to be related or not?
Has the poster in the other thread had anymore discussions with Verna?
I was born & raised in Charleston, SC- not far from where this happened. I was born 2 years after these murders. I asked my mother if she remembered, and she said that was during her senior year in college, so she wasn't paying attention to the news. Anyways, my mom is an interlibrary loan specialist at a university. Her job is to locate and get copies of hard-to-find books and articles from all over the world. She can find the most obscure stuff. So if anybody has any newspaper articles about murders they need help locating, I can ask my mom to find them. I was thinking about getting her to find me copies of every article written about these 2.
bbm
Welcome. That is a great idea about getting articles on these two.
RubyRed
09-15-2010, 07:06 PM
There are six chapters to read but it is well worth it.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/index.html
German Girl 1966
10-29-2011, 08:53 AM
I have just found another interesting drawing of her in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Postmortem_Drawing_by_Harvey_Pratt.jpg
Lil'E
10-31-2011, 05:56 AM
I know it says that she was suspected as being a victim of Bundy but this girls stats match perfectly with the doe and the resemblence is so remarkable. What do you think? Bundy killed so many women that look like Julie could he possible mistaken her for someone else that he victimized?
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cunningham_julie.html
UncoolNegated
10-31-2011, 06:41 PM
If she doesn't have two moles on her left hand side of her face then it's not her.
I know it says that she was suspected as being a victim of Bundy but this girls stats match perfectly with the doe and the resemblence is so remarkable. What do you think? Bundy killed so many women that look like Julie could he possible mistaken her for someone else that he victimized?
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cunningham_julie.html
CarlK90245
11-04-2011, 03:51 PM
Here's my facial reconstruction for this couple:
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Facial%20Reconstructions%20001/2372001620045078242_zpscad9b7e1.jpg
annemc2
11-04-2011, 11:16 PM
WOW, CarlK! Amazing. Looks just like the pm pics...but you've somehow managed to breathe life into them. I don't know if it's the eyes or what. It's amazing. As always, nice work!!
sktrsmw
11-07-2011, 02:56 AM
The man has a definite French Canadian look to him.
Dutchie
11-07-2011, 05:14 AM
In the morgue pics they look French. I'm Dutch and am used to seeing Europeans and if I hadn't already seen the speculation on this couple, just by looking at their facial features I would say they were most likely French.
I can't see the skin tone or I would say also possibly Portuguese (who also have fine facial features). But then the skin tone would be more olive.
They don't look German, Dutch or northern European (Scandinavian). They are too finely built.
websurfer
03-27-2012, 12:38 PM
http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-1-Jane-Doe-police-sketch.jpg http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-2-John-Doe-police-sketc.jpg
Christopher Martin king
on The Doe network case #4071DMCA
and the female this young lady?
nancy perry Baird
#2630DFUT
they look similar to the couple ..
could DNA be done on them?
to match? Or not?:please:
websurfer
03-27-2012, 12:41 PM
[quote=CarlK90245;7318670]Here's my facial reconstruction for this couple:
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Facial%20Reconstructions%20001/2372001620045078242_zpscad9b7e1.jpg
Please see their profiles in The Doe Network
cases #'s
#2630DFUT
and
#4071DMCA
they really resemble them and their descriptions do not mention much as far as noticeable birthmarks and body identification marks.
Even so, they went missing before this couple was found .
:waitasec::twocents:
Reality Orlando
03-27-2012, 12:57 PM
Christopher Martin king
on The Doe network case #4071DMCA
and the female this young lady?
nancy perry Baird
#2630DFUT
they look similar to the couple ..
could DNA be done on them?
to match? Or not?:please:
Christopher King really resembles this picture. Not sure about the girl as the moles are nor apparent in either photo.
canadiantake
05-18-2012, 04:18 PM
The man has a definite French Canadian look to him.
That is exactly what I was thinking! Also, it was said that the couple had olive complexions. Many Quebecois have a degree of First Nations or Metis heritage. Perhaps this was misinterpreted as contributing to the olive tone?
On another note, I came across several discussions/articles saying that back in 2009, DNA from family members of the missing Yakimchuks (a couple who left Edmonton, Alberta to attend a wedding in Montreal, Quebec and disappeared: profiled by Venom Goose in 2008 under the 1970s missing person forum here: CANADA Canada - Ron Yakimchuk, 27, & Terry Pettit, 23, Edmonton AB, 12 June 1973 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community) was submitted to a University who has access to bones belonging to the South Carolina mystery couple. I was excited at this prospect. Here is a link to the article:
http://www.unsolvedcanada.ca/index.php?topic=2936.0
I was especially interested because of the following similarities:
"Sumter County police estimated the victims were between 18 and
26. Terry, a former Edmonton Journal reporter, was 23 when she disappeared. Ron, former editor of a rogue University of Alberta student newspaper, was 27.
The female South Carolina victim was an estimated five-foot-six and
105 pounds, with brown hair and blue-green eyes. Terry was five-foot-four, 120 pounds with blond hair and blue-green eyes.
The male victim was estimated at six feet tall, 150 pounds with brown eyes and brown hair. Ron was six feet tall, 150 pounds with brown eyes and black hair.
Years after the bodies were found, a Canadian connection was revealed. A man whose wife worked at a nearby campground said he played pool there with a camper he thought was one of the victims. He told the sheriff that the man said he was formerly a teacher from Canada. Ron Yakimchuk was a teacher."
However, examining the photos shows that it is probably not them. Here are the Yakimchuk's missing posters, if anyone cares to have a look for themselves.
Ron Yakimchuk: http://www.albertamissingpersons.ca/images/stories/library/data_files/YAKIMCHUK_Ronald.pdf
Terry (Pettit) Yakimchuk: http://www.albertamissingpersons.ca/images/stories/library/data_files/YAKIMCHUK_Theresa.pdf
I have been unable to find any information on the DNA match results, but I am guessing they were negative, or there would be reports of the mystery having been solved.
If anyone has more information, or ideas, i'd love to hear them.
brit1981
06-24-2012, 02:24 PM
I may be in a minority here, but I actually think Terry does look like the jane DOE. I think the shorter hair and the big glasses throw you at first, but if you look at her bone structure there is a similarity. However I cannot see terry and Ron disappearing of their own free will like that, without telling their friends.
8truthseeker8
06-25-2012, 01:02 PM
Brit1981,
I agree. Take away the glasses and I think that they look a lot alike.
And he definitely looks like Sumpter John Doe
brit1981
06-29-2012, 02:47 PM
I definitely think they look very similar to the mystery couple Another thing I thought of was that a witness said they thought the man called himself jock. I admit this is really graspy at straws (and cheap rubbish ones with holes in the sides at that), but what if Ron just shortened his surname to "chuk" which might sounds a bit like Jock if said with an accent. Ok now I have written it I realise how silly that sounds.
The things that go against it being Ron and Terry are 1) the circumstances Ron and Terry disappeared in do not lend themselves to turning up in Southern USA a few weeks later 2) Rons description mentions no scars 3) where are Jane Doe's glasses 4) surely with DNA and dental work they would ahve been identified by now.
kdblaisdell
06-29-2012, 08:36 PM
I don't think chuk sounding like jock is that much of a stretch. I knew a man named Mac for a few years. It wasn't until I saw him write his name that I realized he was actually Mike. Everyone called him Mac. Gotta love southern accents.
Lera213
06-29-2012, 10:15 PM
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/index.html
In the article (link posted above) it stated they think that this couple had attended some type of race in Florida at one point.
I also noticed doing a google search that a detective on the case posted pictures of the jewlery and asked about a Grant's trucks stop in NM area.
Well there is a small town in Florida called "Grant" and they did in the 1970's have a truck stop and I'm pretty sure it was called "Grant's truck stop"
Also since he was looking in NM because the jewlery looked to be native american, and their looks could fit that....I was thinking more on the line of they are indeed brother and sister, and maybe Military Brats. Sumter has an Air Force Base, and several are also in NM, Florida too. With the dental work, perhaps this is why nothing has turned up on the dental work because it was a Military Dentist that did the work.
Back then if a child was missing, the parent would have notified the on base police, now if they were older (which they were) I can see police telling the parents they ran away and police never even filed a report.
What she was wearing was A-typical wear of what I was wearing at the time also. During 1974 it wasn't unheard of hitchiking across the country to go to concerts, or auto racing. In 1973 my sister picked up two girls that hitched a ride from Ill all the way to Cocoa Beach Fla just to hang out for the summer. They had no money or anything. This wasn't a rare occurence during this era either.
Either this couple are Native American, left a tribe area, and no family, or Military Brats. The only thing is the hair on her legs not shaved, and she is wearing shorts. Only girls at that age doing that were Euopeans.
Lera213
06-30-2012, 01:35 AM
I think when we all search out to match this person with someone else we should remember that this Jane Doe had some serious lush lashes. If you look at the crime scene photo's it is almost like if she had on false eyelashes. Even the investigator noted how thick and long they were.
To me the picture of them on the side of the road, both had left arm out. To me, it could indicated they had their thumbs out. Well maybe. Interesting case.
So what ethinic background would give such big thick eyelashes? Spain, and French is my guess.
Swamp Fox Trot
06-30-2012, 11:05 PM
So what ethinic background would give such big thick eyelashes? Spain, and French is my guess.
Vazquez Ocampo = Spanish
Swamp Fox Trot
06-30-2012, 11:10 PM
BUT the one thing about jock is his hair is a definite side part
The coroner's assistant fixed their hair, but I'm sure she had some basis in reality for where she parted it. Pictures of César Lugones also show the hair parted way on the side.
Swamp Fox Trot
06-30-2012, 11:18 PM
FWIW the SC Jane Doe had never given birth. This is per the autopsy/coroner in Sumter.
According to her mother, María Marta had lost two pregnancies. As far as I can tell the only person to say she actually gave birth at ESMA in December 1976 was Adolfo Scilingo. He recanted his testimony at his 2005 trial, saying he never even worked at ESMA.
Swamp Fox Trot
06-30-2012, 11:28 PM
More pictures here of both Maria Marta Vasques & her husband Cesar Amadeo Lugones: http://www.memoriaabierta.org.ar/pancartas/13556.jpg
http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/lugones/
"Servini de Cubria is also investigating the location of a third child, the son of María Vásquez Ocampo y César Amadeo Lugones. Both Vásquez Ocampo and Amadeo Lugones were seen at the ESMA. Vásquez Ocampo was two months pregnant when she was kidnapped, and gave birth to a baby boy in December 1976, according to the testimony of former navy captain Alfredo Scilingo."
Some more info about MV & CAL from : http://eaaf.typepad.com/pdf/1996_1997/02Argentina96_97.pdf
Also, google books has an account of their apprehension: http://books.google.com/books?id=NtZ3EvNYxjYC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=cesar+Lugones+father&source=web&ots=Wd8vmyCfnf&sig=QcsQI_g9X9cemxCEcCABf7UrGSM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result
"An ESMA task force kinapped Monica Mignone the daughter of Lanusse's former education minister, Emilio Mignone, on May 14th 1976. She had been doing Catholic charity work in one of Buenos Aires's slums and also holding a consciousness-raising classes for the poor. On the same day another task-force picked up Maria Vasquez Ocampo, daughter of a diplomat and one of Maria's coworkers, as well as her husband, Cesar Aedeo Lugones....All attempts to locate these women by their fathers was frustrated."
Theoretically, as it was known to have happened at least once, I wonder if Maria and Amadeo might have escaped from the ESMA detention center, or possibly bribed their way out. The resemblance is eerie. This would be an even more tragic ending than I think anyone could have ever imagined. I know it would be unbelievable, unbelievable that they escaped death in Argentina only to be killed in the United States, but I will go on record now that I think this very well could be a match.
It is possible they were rendered to Miami (maybe New York) to help identify other "subversives." Condor operatives did that elsewhere. Also, the FBI gave the junta a list of suspected Montoneros living in the United States.
CarlK90245
07-25-2012, 02:01 PM
Tear Drop e-mailed me a couple more photos of the Sumpter County Jacques Doe. I told him I'd upload them to my Webshots account so that they can be posted here. (Looks like I am going to have to revise my reconstruction.)
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Postmortem%20Photos/2815868210045078242S600x600Q851.jpghttp://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Postmortem%20Photos/2003367470045078242S600x600Q851.jpg
Bobby88
07-25-2012, 02:43 PM
Tear Drop e-mailed me a couple more photos of the Sumpter County Jacques Doe. I told him I'd upload them to my Webshots account so that they can be posted here. (Looks like I am going to have to revise my reconstruction.)
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Postmortem%20Photos/2815868210045078242S600x600Q851.jpghttp://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Postmortem%20Photos/2003367470045078242S600x600Q851.jpg
These are much better! However, I'm still troubled by how different Jock and Jane look in each postmortem photo. It's as if each photo is of a different individual altogether. I've looked at a lot of UID postmortem pics and never have I seen so many variations on what are supposed to be the same individuals.
I am not familiar with this case but am helping my sister find the man who kidnapped her and her boyfriend in 1971 in SC. They were hitchhiking and the man picked them up and held them in his house on Parris Island. He molested my sister many times, she was just 14. Her boyfriend was 17. The whole story is rather gruesome and the details are horrific. He made them believe they were going to jail because the police were looking for them. They didn't think they were going to escape alive, but they did. He took them by car and dropped them off on the side of the highway, telling them to forget his name and tell no one. Recently my sister has contacted authirties to help track this monster down. They believe he did escalate in his violence as most of these types do. Could this man be the same man that murdered this couple?
CarlK90245
07-25-2012, 10:49 PM
(Looks like I am going to have to revise my reconstruction.)
...
Here is the revision.
http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q697/Carlkopp90245/Facial%20Reconstructions%20001/2372001620045078242_zpscad9b7e1.jpg
Swamp Fox Trot
07-26-2012, 08:41 PM
I am not familiar with this case but am helping my sister find the man who kidnapped her and her boyfriend in 1971 in SC. They were hitchhiking and the man picked them up and held them in his house on Parris Island. He molested my sister many times, she was just 14. Her boyfriend was 17. The whole story is rather gruesome and the details are horrific. He made them believe they were going to jail because the police were looking for them. They didn't think they were going to escape alive, but they did. He took them by car and dropped them off on the side of the highway, telling them to forget his name and tell no one. Recently my sister has contacted authirties to help track this monster down. They believe he did escalate in his violence as most of these types do. Could this man be the same man that murdered this couple?
Have you ruled out the infamous serial killer Pee Wee Gaskins?
Swamp Fox Trot
07-26-2012, 08:42 PM
These are much better! However, I'm still troubled by how different Jock and Jane look in each postmortem photo. It's as if each photo is of a different individual altogether. I've looked at a lot of UID postmortem pics and never have I seen so many variations on what are supposed to be the same individuals.
I was thinking the same thing.
Swamp Fox Trot
07-26-2012, 08:43 PM
In the color pic, does it look like John Doe was a regular glasses wearer? Like César Amadeo Lugones.
Bobby88
07-27-2012, 12:39 AM
In the color pic, does it look like John Doe was a regular glasses wearer? Like César Amadeo Lugones.
Now that you mention, it does. He appears to have a small indentation near the bridge of his nose where it looks like a nose-piece would have been on a pair of glasses.
Have you ruled out the infamous serial killer Pee Wee Gaskins?
The person that abducted them was stationed at Parris Island and lived on base at the time. My sister said he wore a white uniform.
Swamp Fox Trot
07-30-2012, 12:38 PM
In the crime scene photo the hair on his face seems to have been brushed upwards; the hair on the top of his head is swept back. Wouldn't this be consistent with removal of a hood? Isn't it a bit unusual for the hair next to his temple to be pointing straight up?
amber1
08-01-2012, 01:14 AM
After reading through the thread, I am convinced they are both Canadians, originally from Canada on a road trip, perhaps a road trip that was brought on by this man's father disowning him for not wanting to be in the medical field. Most likely they were just driving around the US aimlessly, maybe for fun.
I don't believe the girl was a wife or relative, I think it was his girlfriend. I don't think they look too much alike, but if they are both French, than of course they will bear similar traits. I wish they could circulate this story through out Canada. Someone has to be looking for them.
I also wonder if the couple was rich? You'd have to have some type of money to be going across the US aimlessly. I'm sorry if this answer has been posted, but were any personal belongings found of theirs? Was the motive a robbery?
Hoping to see this case solved!
websurfer
08-02-2012, 09:22 AM
Have you ruled out the infamous serial killer Pee Wee Gaskins?
I had never heard of him but he sure would be in the right area to do this.plus I read he was connected to Carnivals and seemed to like to kill both male and female.:tyou:
I did a web search thank you for mentioning him.
amber1
08-02-2012, 11:11 PM
Does anyone remember by SC or VA those cases where couple went missing or were found deceased, and they thought it was a serial killer? But they didnt know who? I wonder if they could be connected, they are in the right place and time wise as well
Reannan
08-02-2012, 11:12 PM
After reading through the thread, I am convinced they are both Canadians, originally from Canada on a road trip, perhaps a road trip that was brought on by this man's father disowning him for not wanting to be in the medical field. Most likely they were just driving around the US aimlessly, maybe for fun.
I don't believe the girl was a wife or relative, I think it was his girlfriend. I don't think they look too much alike, but if they are both French, than of course they will bear similar traits. I wish they could circulate this story through out Canada. Someone has to be looking for them.
I also wonder if the couple was rich? You'd have to have some type of money to be going across the US aimlessly. I'm sorry if this answer has been posted, but were any personal belongings found of theirs? Was the motive a robbery?
Hoping to see this case solved!
Thanks Amber for your thoughts.. I have chased the Canadian angle for years. This couple is much more complicated, in my opinion. I do not think it was a simple robbery either. They are definitely iternational, IMHO. The answer to this couples identity may be a political problem....but it is time for them to have a name. Thank you for your interest .....that is what needs to happen for this couple
amber1
08-04-2012, 10:54 AM
I would agree with you as well...it seems they were shot almost execution style, except for in the neck, chest and back instead of the head! I assumed they were shot on their knees from behind if I remember right?
Reannan
08-06-2012, 04:50 PM
Since we have the new picture, I went back to the Desaparecidos Wall Of Memories, and looked through the pictures again. The following man, Eduardo Guerci, worked for the Navy in Argentina as a computer person - which was pretty high tech for 1976. When I searched more about him, I found that he disappeared with his girlfriend, Patricia Faraoni. She was a medical student and they both went missing around July 20, 1976. Eduardo's brother launched an investigation, and from what I can determine when I translate the link below, Eduardo was declared a deserter, even though it appears he was kidnapped. Did he and Patricia make it out of the country? Here are their pictures. He looks like a better candidate than she does, IMHO. Just throwing it out there for the opinion of all of you.
http://www.desaparecidos.org/arg/victimas/g/guerci/
Reannan
08-06-2012, 05:46 PM
Here is a picture I did with Eduardo Garcia and Patrica Faraoni compared with the UID in a single grouping. Should have done that earlier. :banghead:
Swamp Fox Trot
08-06-2012, 10:10 PM
I would agree with you as well...it seems they were shot almost execution style, except for in the neck, chest and back instead of the head!
Similar to the execution of Ché Guevara in Bolivia. Félix Rodríguez talked to him for some time and specifically ordered his men not to shoot him in the head. I believe the Sumter pair were also interrogated beforehand.
amber1
08-08-2012, 11:02 AM
I am surprised they have not been identified with as good of photos they have of these two.
Blue.Line
08-10-2012, 08:37 PM
I've followed this case for several years and this is the first time I've seen those two new photos of "Jacques" I wonder is there are any more of "Jane" similar floating around? It would be nice to be able to have different angle shots, and more of the actual crime scene itself.
Swamp Fox Trot
08-28-2012, 04:54 AM
Notice the pronounced asymmetry of the nose and the crooked teeth, the dark circles under the eyes, the eyeglass marks. Remember there may be some swelling in the postmortem pic.
~n/t~
08-28-2012, 06:01 AM
I never heard of this couple before. Having looked at the pictures, the comments and the links, I have a slightly different take of this couple.
I believe they were foreigners. Their resemblance to some of the Argentines is interesting in that most people in Argentina are an ethnic mix of Spanish and Italian blood. Argentine women, especialy of the upper classes, are very beauty conscious. I do not believe the couple is from Argentina, however, for two reasons. One, if they had just fled from a brutal military regime in their home country, I doubt that they would be driving or hitchhiking around the United States. Two, while Argentine customs may have changed over the years I cannot imagine an Argentine woman not shaving her legs.
I do not believe they are Italian nationals either. If the initials on the watch are in fact the man's, the letter J is not customarily used in the Italian language. John is Gianni. Joseph is Giuseppe. The month of June is Giungno.
The olive colored complexion certainly implies the Mediterranean area which would exclude their being Northern, Central or Eastern Europeans. I doubt based on their complexions that they were French Canadians.
This, in my book, leaves us with Spaniards, Portuguese or Mediterreanan French. I do not know what the customs of women were back then, but I suspect French women were the group least likely of the three to have shaved their legs back then. (the man was clean shaven so it is not that they did not have any razors at their disposal). The French ancestry would include former colonialists in North Africa.
So the question still remains how did this couple (probably French) of comfortable background get to the US, meander about and meet a violent death without anyone back home worrying about them?
Yes we shaved our legs 30 years ago. That said, if anyone wants to explore the possibility that this couple is french Canadian from Quebec, there were a couple of political unrests in the 70's.
1) FLQ Movement - some underground operations.
Here is a wiki link but there is a lot of information on the web.
Front de libération du Québec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2) PQ - Separatist Movement - Many English Quebecers fled after the PQ went into power fearing Quebec separation from Canada. Again, I'm linking wiki but there are other articles on the web
Parti Québécois - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
3) Explore the mob angle. There was a big hijacking of an armoured "Brinks" truck in 1976 which surpassed the well known Crime of the Century Boston Brinks truck. The robbery netted $2.7 million in cash and 29 boxes containing a total of $5,000 worth of Olympic gold coins.
This link talks about the Irish mob but there was a french Canadian connection as well.
http://mafiatoday.com/canadian-mafia/montreals-ruthless-irish-mobsters-chronicled-in-new-book-by-darcy-oconnor/
In the first two scenarios I can perhaps see family members looking for their loved ones publicly. In the third, I'm not so sure.
Anyway, my :twocents: worth.
ETA: I agree with you regarding the initials. There is no "J" in the Italian alphabet. I'm guessing if his name is Jacques, his middle initial can be Pierre, Paul, Phillipe. However, not a common abbreviated name with Jacques. Most with JP initials are Jean-Paul, Jean-Pierre, Jean-Phillipe
~n/t~
08-28-2012, 06:45 AM
The letter "F" and the Spanish connection, maybe?
1975 Oct 30, Juan Carlos (37) assumed power in Spain after General Franco, near death, gave him control.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/30/newsid_2464000/2464945.stm)
1975 Nov 20, After nearly four decades of absolute rule (1936-1975), Spain's General Francisco Franco died, two weeks before his 83rd birthday. Juan Carlos, grandson of King Alfonso, was his designated successor and the monarchy was restored. In 2002 Gabrielle Ashford Hodges authored "Franco: A Concise Biography."
(SFC, 11/12/96, p.A12)(SFEC, 10/5/97, p.A17)(AP, 11/20/97)(SSFC, 4/21/02, p.M4)
1975 Nov 22, Juan Carlos was proclaimed king of Spain.
(AP, 11/22/97)
1976 Nov 18, Spain's parliament approved a bill to establish a democracy after 37 years of dictatorship.
(AP, 11/18/97)
http://timelines.ws/countries/SPAIN_B.HTML
Did some of his kin flee?
coopzoo
08-28-2012, 07:05 AM
Here is a picture I did with Eduardo Garcia and Patrica Faraoni compared with the UID in a single grouping. Should have done that earlier. :banghead:
The resemblance is striking...
~n/t~
12-04-2012, 11:17 AM
So sad and so very long ago 1976...
How could these 2 people not be missed by someone, somewhere, in all this time?
Does anyone know the details of 'how' these 2 young people were killed?
where were they found in S.C, near the beaches or islands, near a college, apartments, in a city or back roads just WHERE in SC?....I noticed on the side of the picture it says Sumter, coroners office.
South Carolina has always had a lot of tourist for the beaches, fishing, boating, colleges as well as motorcycle rallys.
their height and weight and approx. ages, what were they wearing,
was it beach/summer cloths, swim suits, winter cloths, motorcycle cloths, work cloths, what type of clothing, expensive or average, shoes, jewelry, what's the details?
After 30 years it's time all the details get out, maybe a friend or family member will recognize them, unless they were from some other country..
The timeline is a bit off but what about this man from Argentina?
http://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/ustedlosvio/yves.h1.jpghttp://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-2-John-Doe-police-sketc.jpg
http://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/seguimosbuscando.php#
amber1
12-04-2012, 12:35 PM
The timeline is a bit off but what about this man from Argentina?
http://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/ustedlosvio/yves.h1.jpghttp://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-2-John-Doe-police-sketc.jpg
http://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/seguimosbuscando.php#
I'm not going to lie, this gave me chills! Very similar.
~n/t~
12-04-2012, 02:03 PM
His name is Yves Alain DOMERGUE born in France. If he used the name Jacques and had a french accent, I think this is our John Doe.
IMO
ETA: How do we submit a possible match?
~n/t~
12-04-2012, 02:12 PM
http://www.trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-1-Jane-Doe-police-sketch.jpghttp://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/ustedlosvio/SIDARAVICIUSIngrid2.jpghttp://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/ustedlosvio/SIDARAVICIUSIngrid.jpg
Jane Doe? http://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/seguimosbuscando.php#
rob525
12-04-2012, 03:37 PM
I see similarities but I don't see the moles and it appears the missing person is 37? If so that would seem to rule it out. I do admit though that when I saw the photos I thought "wow this could be her"
Reannan
12-04-2012, 11:41 PM
His name is Yves Alain DOMERGUE born in France. If he used the name Jacques and had a french accent, I think this is our John Doe.
IMO
ETA: How do we submit a possible match?
I was hopeful also... but according to this article, the bodies of Yves and his girlfriend Cristina were found by a group of high school students who were investigating the missing people from the Dirty Wars. Hmmm.... honestly, this story always sounded a bit fishy to me, but that is what happens after being here on WS's for a long, long, time. Yves and Cristina are REALLY good candidates for the John and Jane Doe from SC.... but... here is the news:
http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/metro/view/20100728-283583/Argentine-students-crack-three-decade-old-murder-mystery
Magnum P.E.
12-05-2012, 05:56 PM
His name is Yves Alain DOMERGUE born in France. If he used the name Jacques and had a french accent, I think this is our John Doe.
IMO
ETA: How do we submit a possible match?
I thought I replied to this last night but apparently not!
Yves Alain Domergue was known to be alive in Argentina in September 1976. This is too late to be Jacques, who was found in August.
Yves and his girlfriend were kidnapped and killed, then dumped by the roadside in a manner eerily similar to that of the Sumter County Does. Their remains were IDed in 2010.
He certainly does look a lot like Jacques, but his girlfriend does not look like Jane at all.
Monroe12
12-06-2012, 05:58 PM
Am I seeing an image that isn't there? Or does the pictures of this guys right ear not really show...an actual ear? I kept thinking I was seeing a sort of "mirage".....to me if looks like he has no ear. Just me?
thelocator77
12-27-2012, 11:18 PM
These two do look very similar to the victims.
I read about this on TDN and I believe these 2 are related and either came from europe or canada. Its hard to believe they haven't been identified.
Szabo
02-14-2013, 07:01 PM
I've only now just started reading about this case, but one thing I'd like to add about the woman's infamous unshaven legs, could it be they had simply be on the road for a number of weeks and she hadn't been able to shave them?
Also to the person who said it was common here in Europe not to wear underwear, I have no idea where you've heard that.
webrocket
03-05-2013, 09:27 PM
the man was able to shave his face as he was clean shaven when he was murdered so they had access to a razor in the not to distant past.
I've only now just started reading about this case, but one thing I'd like to add about the woman's infamous unshaven legs, could it be they had simply be on the road for a number of weeks and she hadn't been able to shave them?
Also to the person who said it was common here in Europe not to wear underwear, I have no idea where you've heard that.
Irish_Eyes
03-17-2013, 01:50 AM
I have not kept up too well on this thread, but I did remember at one time someone suggested they looked Argentinian, and maybe fled the troubles there, or I've also heard people think they are French or Canadian.
Circumstantially, it doesn't make much sense for the girl to be Marie Anne Erize, but for sure they look a lot alike. I mention it because Marie Anne was an Argentine model with French ancestry....at least if my translation is correct from what I've been reading....if you Google her name you will see lots of images of her. She disappeared in 1975. She was apparently kidnapped by 3 men and forced into a vehicle. She is presumed deceased and I think there is little chance this is her. I only mention the resemblance to say I think you are on the right track with the French or Argentine angles.
Swamp Fox Trot
03-20-2013, 12:16 PM
Like the Lugones pair, Marie Anne Erize came from a privileged background and was drawn to work with the poor with Liberation Theology priests. However she was not abducted until 15 October 1976, two months after the SC Does were found.
imnotfussy
05-29-2013, 09:12 PM
I believe the girl may be Laurie Lynn PARTRIDGE, who has been missing since December 4, 1974. Ignore what it says her hair colour is on the doenetwork, it appears they've had a problem with data entry so there are hundreds of entries with incorrect hair colour. Her hair colour is clearly brown or brown with a reddish tinge.
http://doenetwork.org/cases/71dfwa.html
I also have a theory that his name may be "Jean-Paul" or "John-Paul". Jock is commonly the name for John. He looks very familiar. I'm currently scouring international sites, although I tend to think Quebec is the most likely scenario, given what he'd previously said about himself.
imnotfussy
05-29-2013, 09:13 PM
The resemblance between these two is remarkable, it's a really good fit in terms of the pictures.
The timeline is a bit off but what about this man from Argentina?
http://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/ustedlosvio/yves.h1.jpghttp://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/notorious_murders/classics/mystery_couple/2-2-John-Doe-police-sketc.jpg
http://www.exdesaparecidos.org.ar/aedd/seguimosbuscando.php#
imnotfussy
05-30-2013, 04:25 AM
I think you will find that that information is incorrect. The supposition that he was still alive mid-September 1976 is based on Yves brother saying that's when he received a postcard from his brother (Ref: http://globalnation.inquirer.net/cebudailynews/metro/view/20100728-283583/Argentine-students-crack-three-decade-old-murder-mystery). Yet as we all know a postcard can be faked, it can also be sent some time after a person's death.
There was nobody that witnessed the alleged abduction of Yves and Christina, it was just surmised. It's more than possible their parents arranged for them to get across the border into the USA ... staying in Argentina would have been a sure death for them both.
Supposedly Yves and Cristina's body's were found late September 1976. There was a couple that were shot and murdered 3 days after the alleged disappearance of the couple. They were buried at the time. There were no attempts to identify them then.
The John & Jane DOE were found August 9,1976, having been recently murdered. There didn't seem to be any sign of a struggle on their body's, there were no injuries. There was evidence in their stomach's that they had recently eaten ice-cream. I wonder if someone, their murderer's offered to buy them ice-cream, but the ice-cream was drugged with something to render them unconscious. Their deaths seem to have all the hallmarks of an assasination.
Now the body's of the unknown couple in Argentina had been lying there for years and the fingerprints of the man had been determined not to match Yves fingerprints. Then all of a sudden they do DNA testing, which in a country of great corruption I believe it would suit their purposes to be able to say that this couple were dead, rather than have it found out that they were assasinated on foreign soil in a political assassination. It would have been easy to get genetic material from the John & Jane DOE in Sumter, South Carolina at that time. Either that or the laboratory faked the supposed match.
I'm quite convinced now that the couple were Yves and Cristina - they are a very obvious match in looks. Now Cristina didn't have the two moles on her face, but these can be surgically removed easily enough, or covered with makeup.
As for all the conversation about legs being shaved or not ... sheesh, when one is dating they shave their legs, when not they often don't. If they've been in a relationship for a long time also they're less likely to shave. And as for a man letting a woman use his shaver on her legs, most men wouldn't allow it as it blunts the raver and then he's more likely to cut his face when he shaves. It's really neither here or there, it's no big deal. Sheesh, I haven't shaved mine for ages! Some women go through stages where they are always done, sometimes we get sick of it and don't do them for ages. No big deal and I don't see it crucial to the investigation at all.
I think Cristina does look like the gf if you compare the autopsy photo's and photo's taken at the scene of the crime to her ... it's pretty clear to me it's her.
I thought I replied to this last night but apparently not!
Yves Alain Domergue was known to be alive in Argentina in September 1976. This is too late to be Jacques, who was found in August.
Yves and his girlfriend were kidnapped and killed, then dumped by the roadside in a manner eerily similar to that of the Sumter County Does. Their remains were IDed in 2010.
He certainly does look a lot like Jacques, but his girlfriend does not look like Jane at all.
Charlie99909
06-14-2013, 11:34 AM
Wow Carl, those "newer" photos of Jock are amazing. Wasn't he shot in the neck?
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