PA-Ray Gricar ~ Central Pennsylvania Part 5

[christine2448]

Please continue here.

[SeekingJana]

Thanks, Christine. :)

JJ, I didn't realize he was with his first wife when there was an incident about him just going to a ballgame. Like I said, someone had him under their thumb at that point, at least.

I have never seen a photo of his ex wife to know what she looks like, but I have seen photos of Patti. For her age, an attractive lady, from what I could tell. She seemed petite, dark haired, that's about all I remember.

Regarding the car, the Mini is a stand out model of car in most of the USA. I notice Minis in Dallas. That's what I meant more than " expensive and flashy". It's really neither. A former boyfriend of mine bought a red Corvette with a personalized license plate that said Bbbbad ( from the song Bad To The Bone)- he was a cop having a mid-life crisis. That's an example of flash.
The Mini Cooper is merely standout because of its size and shape among other cars and because there were so few of them on the road at that time, especially.

Maria

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks, Christine. :)

JJ, I didn't realize he was with his first wife when there was an incident about him just going to a ballgame. Like I said, someone had him under their thumb at that point, at least.


It was his second wife, I'll abbreviate her as EG, because she hasn't been identified in most of the press stories. His first wife was Barbara Gray, who lives in State College and is Lara's mother.


I have never seen a photo of his ex wife to know what she looks like, but I have seen photos of Patti. For her age, an attractive lady, from what I could tell. She seemed petite, dark haired, that's about all I remember.


I have not either, but I've heard some descriptions.

Ms. Fornicola is by no means ugly, but she isn't a tall blond supermodel type either. She's maybe 5'6" with short black hair. She's not fat, but not skinny, either. And, while she does not look old, she didn't look like she was in early 20's either. I wouldn't describe her as a trophy wife/girlfriend type. Attractive, but not stunning. When I finally found her photo, I must admit to being surprised.


That's what I meant more than " expensive and flashy". It's really neither.

I know what you mean, but it's hard to characterize. It wasn't an economy car, but it was not a Corvette either. If you didn't know him, and I didn't, you'd kind of ask me what kind of a car I'd expect a 59 year old Republican DA would drive, a Mini Cooper would not come to mind. :)

Those people who actually know him didn't find anything odd in him buying the Mini and didn't think it was a midlife crisis.

And my thanks to Christine as well.

[Airplane]

The most commonly accepted reasons for Ray Gricar's disapparence are:

1) He was abducted and murdered.
2) He left of his own accord to start a new life.
3) He committed suicide.

I think all of those are possible as I just do not know what happened to him.

However, there is also the remote possibility that he simply went for a walk in the woods and keeled over with a stroke, heart attack, or something of the like. It does happen to even otherwise healthy people. After all, FloJo died in her sleep and she was not too many years removed from being an Olympic champion. I know it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.

[J. J. in Phila]

The most commonly accepted reasons for Ray Gricar's disapparence are:

1) He was abducted and murdered.
2) He left of his own accord to start a new life.
3) He committed suicide.

I think all of those are possible as I just do not know what happened to him.

However, there is also the remote possibility that he simply went for a walk in the woods and keeled over with a stroke, heart attack, or something of the like. It does happen to even otherwise healthy people. After all, FloJo died in her sleep and she was not too many years removed from being an Olympic champion. I know it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.


If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.

[Airplane]

If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.

The body might not have been found. Look at how long it took them to find Chandra Levy and she was in a park. It would have been possible for him to walk a couple of miles or more in any direction, cross the road, or any number of things that could keep him well hidden for a very long time. I realize that's it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2803044#post2803044)
This is incredibly shocking! Unfortunately, the link isn't working for me to be able to read it!

I don't find it too shocking, just interesting...

Mr. Gricar expressed an interest in making the drive unreadable a long time before he was planning to retire; the accounts make it look like a about a year prior to retirement. What is interesting is that he expressed this interest and the drive ended up unreadable and that he expressed this interest well before he disappeared.

This is exactly what I meant when I said that this is incredibly shocking to me. Wanting to know how to erase a hard drive is not mysterious. In conjunction with all of the other things we now know, it becomes very mysterious, IMO.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

i also believe that many people live lives of quiet desperation because they lack the courage to walk away from a life that is lacking and pursue their passions, whatever and whoever those passions may be.
Amen!!!!!!!!!!!

[J. J. in Phila]

The body might not have been found. Look at how long it took them to find Chandra Levy and she was in a park. It would have been possible for him to walk a couple of miles or more in any direction, cross the road, or any number of things that could keep him well hidden for a very long time. I realize that's it's highly unlikely, but I think it is a possibility.

They did use both blood hounds and a cadaver dog, with little luck. The dogs discovered Mr. Gricar's scent in the parking lot, but that's about it.

[Airplane]

They did use both blood hounds and a cadaver dog, with little luck. The dogs discovered Mr. Gricar's scent in the parking lot, but that's about it.

I think it's about as likely that he went for a walk and keeled over as it is that he committed suicide. Possible, yes. Probable, no. The suicide theory is about as probable as the went for walk and keeled over theory. They're both remotely possible, but simply not very likely.

[reb]

why is this thread in the located section if he has not been located?

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it's about as likely that he went for a walk and keeled over as it is that he committed suicide. Possible, yes. Probable, no. The suicide theory is about as probable as the went for walk and keeled over theory. They're both remotely possible, but simply not very likely.

The big question is, why no body. Possibly it was in the river, but that is still unlikely.

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

why is this thread in the located section if he has not been located?
The forum contains both missing & located threads, (title = Missing/Located Forum Discussion (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=60)). I've never really understood why missing & located are combined in this way.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it's about as likely that he went for a walk and keeled over as it is that he committed suicide. Possible, yes. Probable, no. The suicide theory is about as probable as the went for walk and keeled over theory. They're both remotely possible, but simply not very likely.


I give suicide about a 9% chance, murder 44%, walkaway 46%. I give about 1% for "everything else," including an accident.

[Lili]

If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.


IMO If he fell into the river on the day he disappeared he may never be found because, IIRC, the river was running high and rapid due to the recent heavy rains. Although a river search was done, a body could have been snagged or hung up on underwater obstacles. We had a local incident last spring when a fisherman disappeared. Because of the rains the creek was running a little high and fast. His body was passed several times by searchers until someone just happened to catch a glance between rocks. He was almost 7 miles from where he went in. But, unfortunately, I don't think that is what happened.

[J. J. in Phila]

If it was the woods (and there are some wooded areas in a park around where the Mini was found) the body would been found long ago.

It is possible that he had a health problem or accident and fell into the river, but why hasn't the body been found.


IMO If he fell into the river on the day he disappeared he may never be found because, IIRC, the river was running high and rapid due to the recent heavy rains.

There are some problems with that.

1. Most bodies are recovered from the Susquehanna. While there had been flooding in late March and early April, the waters were receding by mid April. It was still higher, but receding.

2. There are multiple dams on the Susquehanna, down river, where a body might be spotted.

3. The river runs through populated areas and is heavily used for recreation. Someone might have discovered the remains (case in point, the laptop was discovered though it wasn't necessarily tossed in on the weekend of 4/15/05).

4. The searching was phenomenal. The initial search was from the air, followed up by boats with a cadaver dog.

Is it possibly that Mr. Gricar fell, jumped (or walked) into the river, or that his murdered body was dumped into the river? Yes. Is it likely, probably not.

[SeekingJana]

I used to live on the banks of a major, fast moving, extremely deep US river. Bodies were ALWAYS found.

I have also lived on the Gulf of Mexico. Bodies were not always found there, but for reasons related to tides, predatory animals such as sharks and so forth.

I have read that the Sus. River was VERY shallow where Ray's laptop and hard drive was found, close to where his car was parked near the bridge over the river. I read on the CTV forum, when it was up and running well, that if he jumped, he probably wouldn't die, it was like jumping into a swimming pool. Maybe the description wasn't accurate, I don't know.

With the Benjaman Kyle case, I have been more aware of the reasons people leave their lives or disappear.
There are a couple of " What ifs" I want to throw out for discussion in this case, but I know that most people, like me, do have a lot of respect for Mr. Gricar, and for what they know about his life as stated in the media.

If it's OK, I will start a generalized thread about " Why and how do people disappear" in the JR. I don't want to disrespect Mr. Gricar and the question and hypotheses related to the question are not specific to his case, since we have a missing person only here.

[J. J. in Phila]

If you start another thread, please post the link here. I would be interested.

The Susquehanna was still high on the day Mr. Gricar disappeared. My guess, I wasn't there, was about 3 to 6 feet higher than when the laptop was found. Still, it would be unusual that a body would not be found, even unlikely.

[J. J. in Phila]

1. Most bodies are recovered from the Susquehanna. While there had been flooding in late March and early April, the waters were receding by mid April. It was still higher, but receding.



I have some more information on the level of the Susquehanna, sent to me by an area resident that was strolling along. :) It was based on personal observations (his) and gauge data.

The water was about 16 inches lower when the divers first searched it that it was on 4/15/05. It was very murky. This would have been the week of 4/17/05.

When the laptop was found, the water had dropped another 23 inches. This was July 30, 2005.

The water dropped another 3 inches when the hard drive was found. This was early October 2005.

In late September 2005, IIRC, there were heavy rains and the river went up a bit, but no flooding.

[J. J. in Phila]

Mr. Gricar discussed a second walkaway case with his friend and an ADA, Stephen Sloane. It was the case of fugitive Cambria County former judge, Joseph O'Kicki. Mr. O'Kicki fled the county to his ancestral home, Slovenia, in 1992. Mr. Gricar's family was also from Slovenia, and he had visited it.

Mr. Gricar had discussed two cases where someone voluntarily walked away, Hinckley Township, OH police chief Mel Wiley and former Cambria County judge, Joseph O'Kicki.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6371

A bit of information on O'Kicki:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9502E5D6143DF932A25750C0A9629582 60

[J. J. in Phila]

We had a brief shout out in Mr. Bosak's blog. :)

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6409

[J. J. in Phila]

I've tried to develop a witness list from published sources:


4/15/05 in or near Lewisburg

1. Woman at Museum 12:00 Noon, reported Centre Daily Times (CDT)

2. McKnight’s witness, c. 5:00 PM, includes Mini, CDT

3. Witnesses, Mini being moved in lot, c. 5:30-6:30 PM (multiple), CDT

4. Alvey, Remember When owner, in SoS, in the evening (after 6:00 PM), possibly 4/16/05, reported Daily Collegian (DC).

4/15/05 in Bellefonte

1. Fenton, Courthouse, metallic colored car, 3:00 PM,
CDT.

2. Grine, 3:00 PM or 4/14/05


4/16/05 in Lewisburg

1. Bennett, lunchtime, CDT

2. Workers, 2, saw RFG at the SoS, just after lunch, CDT

4/18/05 in Wilkes-Barre

1. Man at bar, Highland Avenue, evening, PPG. Called BPD 4/22/05

2. Bartender, identified after police checked

[J. J. in Phila]

Just published. One of the people that saw Mr. Gricar in Wilkes-Barre on 4/18/08 was a police officer.

http://community.centredaily.com/?q=node/6459

This was just under three days after Mr. Gricar was reported missing
Odds now:

Walkaway 48%, Murder 43%, Suicide 8%, Something Else 1%

[J. J. in Phila]

On the prior thread, I said:



I'm guessing that the second witness contacted the PSP or BPD. I'm told that he was not from the Wilkes-Barre area (and not from Centre County) and that he would be the type to have MEGA-credibility. I've heard, second hand of the account, and it would fit with someone trying to somewhat disguise his identity. They talked for about 5 minutes, so it wasn't just walking past the guy on a street.

Now, we have two witnesses that put Mr. Gricar in the same place, a bar in Wilkes-Barre, at the same time, the evening of 4/18/05. Both are sure and both got more than a fleeting glimpse of him. Both may have identified his voice. While the bartender is probably credible, the second witness has major credibility, on a number of levels. This is what would move my numbers.

This report was it.

[Bobbisangel]

It does sound like he just walked away from his old life. I don't think he would commit suicide because of his brother and the pain that he saw his nephews go through much less what it did to Ray. I think he just decided to start a new life and left everything behind including his car. Someone must have picked him up in the parking lot and that is why the dogs couldn't find his scent outside of the parking lot. I would also imagine that he had been socking money away for awhile maybe under someone elses name in some other city.

If he did just walk away I would bet that he has contacted his daughter sometime since and has sworn her to secrecy. He must have had his reasons for leaving but I don't think he would just disappear and leave his daughter never knowing where he is. That would be as bad as his brother committing suicide and his nephews having to cope with it.

This might be a case like Nick F. and we may never know what really happened to Ray.

[J. J. in Phila]

In September of 2005, Mr. Gricar's daughter passed a polygraph.

I still need to be convinced that this walkaway, though the more that comes out, the more likely it becomes.

Basically, the question is, if Mr. Gricar left Lewisburg, how did he get out? The Wilkes-Barre location is just over 70 miles from where the car was found. He didn't grow wings and fly there.

[J. J. in Phila]

Another tragedy associated with the Gricar case. The daughter of Robert Buehner, the Montour County District Attorney who called for the attorney general's office to take over the case, died Monday evening.

http://www.dailyitem.com/0700_the_danville_news/local_story_352001509.html?keyword=topstory

Very sad. :(

[txsleuth]

A new forum for discussion on the Ray Gricar case

http://tinyurl.com/cwq2vq

[J. J. in Phila]

The new address of the Centre Daily Times blog on the Gricar case, "Sporadic Comments" is here: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/

I have been outlining the evidence for the case over the last two months, and have a witness time line posted.

[txsleuth]

Sorry for the inconvenience folks....but the board I created just wasn't working properly, so I've found a new forum host here. Please visit & spread the word. Thanks, Politigal

http://raygricar.iboards.us/

[J. J. in Phila]

The fourth anniversary of Ray Gricar's disappearance will be 4/15/09.

[Pandora]

Detective: Gricar researched how to destroy hard drive
By Sara Ganim
BELLEFONTE — Before he disappeared April 15, 2005, former District Attorney Ray Gricar used his home computer to search the Internet for information on “how to wreck a hard drive,” “how to fry a hard drive,” and “water damage to a notebook computer.”

Ray Gricar's laptop computer at the Bellefonte Police Department on August 1, 2005. The computer was found missing the hard drive.

Tuesday, one day before the fourth anniversary of Gricar’s disappearance, Bellefonte Police Det. Matthew Rickard released information that raises the question as to why Gricar might have wanted to destroy that hard drive.

Gricar, who was planning to retire in eight months, went for a drive through Brush Valley, toward Lewisburg, on April 15, 2005, and hasn’t been heard from since.

What was believed to be his county-issued laptop computer hard drive was found in the Susquehanna River six months after he disappeared, separated from the computer itself, which was also found in the river.

Two FBI labs and Kroll Ontrack, a company that was able to recover data from hard drives on board Space Shuttle Columbia after it crashed, both evaluated the hard drive, but both attempts to recover information were unsuccessful.

The water damage from the Susquehanna River was too much.


More at link:
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1228044.html

[christine2448]

Tomorrow is the anniversay of Ray's dissapearance.....really baffling. I think of him so often...he and Tybee are the reasons I am here.


Where are you Ray????? Do we need to find you and put you at peace, or did you run and are OK? So many questions.

My thoughts are with Ray and all involved in the coming days.

[J. J. in Phila]

Detective: Gricar researched how to destroy hard drive
By Sara Ganim
BELLEFONTE — Before he disappeared April 15, 2005, former District Attorney Ray Gricar used his home computer to search the Internet for information on “how to wreck a hard drive,” “how to fry a hard drive,” and “water damage to a notebook computer.”

Ray Gricar's laptop computer at the Bellefonte Police Department on August 1, 2005. The computer was found missing the hard drive.

Tuesday, one day before the fourth anniversary of Gricar’s disappearance, Bellefonte Police Det. Matthew Rickard released information that raises the question as to why Gricar might have wanted to destroy that hard drive.

Gricar, who was planning to retire in eight months, went for a drive through Brush Valley, toward Lewisburg, on April 15, 2005, and hasn’t been heard from since.

What was believed to be his county-issued laptop computer hard drive was found in the Susquehanna River six months after he disappeared, separated from the computer itself, which was also found in the river.

Two FBI labs and Kroll Ontrack, a company that was able to recover data from hard drives on board Space Shuttle Columbia after it crashed, both evaluated the hard drive, but both attempts to recover information were unsuccessful.

The water damage from the Susquehanna River was too much.


More at link:
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1228044.html

The timing of this announcement is interesting.

[christine2448]

Why is this coming out NOW??

snips

Before he disappeared on April 15, 2005, former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar used his home computer to search the Internet for information on "how to wreck a hard drive" and "water damage to a notebook computer," police revealed Tuesday.

Investigators previously disclosed that they had, through interviews, heard Gricar was talking about ways to erase a hard drive with friends and colleagues about 16 months before he disappeared. A box for such software was seen at his house around January 2004.
"The investigation learned early on that Mr. Gricar had, in fact, purchased software to accomplish this," Rickard said. "It was believed that pending Mr. Gricar's retirement, he may have wanted to erase his county-issued laptop computer prior to returning the laptop to the district attorney's office."

[christine2448]

So, preparing for retirement......or going.....where??

Police say Gricar might have been researching the topic because of his pending retirement. They believed he planned to keep the laptop computer. Authorities are still actively following leads in the case.

http://www.wrta.com/page.php?page_id=34663

[nittany90]

Ray Gricar's disappearance has always been interesting to me -- perhaps because as a young reporter, I interviewed him once as a PSU college kid. Perhaps because I live so close to where he was last seen and know the area, perhaps purely because of the mystery surrounding his disappearance. I was in Lewisburg that day, and have often run thru my mind, "could I have seen him, or his mini -cooper in that parking lot?" I don't think so, because, I knew who he was, what he looked like. But, that doesn't stop my mind from searching.

With the new info released in our local paper today, I must admit that my first instinct was to think, "hmmm....seems to point to a set up". But, the more I think about it, the more the new info means nothing to me. It has failed to shed any light on the mystery, in my mind.

So, he looked up how to erase a hard drive memory? He was planning to retire in 9 months -- I'm sure he had a lot of personal information on his DA laptop, that he wanted erased before handing it over to the next DA. In fact, he apparently purchased the erasing program in 2004. And, if he was setting up his disappearance, would he really have discussed the "how to's" with collegues and family members, only to have their testimony brought to light later? For a smart man, that would have been pretty dumb.

Maybe, the Montour County DA is right -- maybe he was looking to erase the very info that was the cause of his disappearance (ie, the foul play scenario).

And, if he set up his disappearance, it would have taken months (if not years) of advance planning. Yet, there has been absolutely NOT one shred of evidence pointing to that.

Four years later, still a mystery. But, the latest press release has not changed my mind. I still think he was the victim of foul play, possibly because of a drug case he was working on with the joint task force.

[christine2448]

maybe maybe, how, what??? I am just as confused today as when I was 4 yrs ago when I got the call from my sis that he went missing.:rolleyes::cool:

[J. J. in Phila]

Maybe, the Montour County DA is right -- maybe he was looking to erase the very info that was the cause of his disappearance (ie, the foul play scenario).

And, if he set up his disappearance, it would have taken months (if not years) of advance planning. Yet, there has been absolutely NOT one shred of evidence pointing to that.

Four years later, still a mystery. But, the latest press release has not changed my mind. I still think he was the victim of foul play, possibly because of a drug case he was working on with the joint task force.

I hat to disagree with Bob Buehner, but how on earth could a criminal have known that data was only on the laptop? How would he know where the laptop was?

In the case of long term things:

1. Mr. Gricar had a long term interest in the 1985 voluntary disappearance of Ohio police chief Mel Wiley. He was discussing the case, with which he had no personal involvement, at least eight years after it happened.

2. He had expressed an interest in erasing the drive 16 months prior to his disappearance.

3. He had registered the Mini Cooper in his girlfriend's name about 9 months before he disappeared.

[nittany90]

I hat to disagree with Bob Buehner, but how on earth could a criminal have known that data was only on the laptop? How would he know where the laptop was?

In the case of long term things:

1. Mr. Gricar had a long term interest in the 1985 voluntary disappearance of Ohio police chief Mel Wiley. He was discussing the case, with which he had no personal involvement, at least eight years after it happened.

2. He had expressed an interest in erasing the drive 16 months prior to his disappearance.

3. He had registered the Mini Cooper in his girlfriend's name about 9 months before he disappeared.

Bolded, respectfully by me
In all the articles I have read, I never heard this mentioned. Can you cite the source? That puts a very interesting spin on the case, I must admit.
TIA.

If it was a walk-away, how did he plan it/sock money away for it? I'm sure the PD has examined his financial records very, very closely (this would be my very first line of investigation). To my knowledge, there were no suspicious financial movements either before or after April 15.

And, this case has been shown on the national (perhaps international) media. If he's out there, why has no-one seen him? Or even, reportedly seen him, since those reports of him being in a bar in Wilkes-Barre, dressed in a suit?

Again, simply having the interest to erase a hard drive, doesn't seal the deal for me. I'm curious about it, too, and I'm sure a search for "how to" would should up on my computer. Coincidence, possibly?

And, if it was suicide by jumping off the bridge, it's hard to believe that his body would not have surfaced after all these years (when his laptop and hard-drive -much smaller items, did).

I just want some hard evidence, pointing one way or the other. But sadly, I think the case is about to be officially closed by the BPD. Just a feeling.

[nittany90]

JJ -
I've been reading your blogs on the CDT's website. It is obvious that your interest in, and research of, this case is amazing. Kudos to you. I have gotten the impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you are leaning toward the "walked away" theory.

With this in mind, I just had to post a couple of questions/comments for you.

1. About registering the mini-Cooper in Patty's name - I work for an attorney, and he advises that a married couple or a couple living together should NEVER have both names on the registration. Why? Liability issues. Exactly what Ray was reported to have offered for his reasoning. In case of an accident, the owner could be sued personally (after insurance limits had been exhausted). If, say, my husband was the cause of a serious accident, and the vehicles were registered in both our names, that asset could be taken in a lawsuit. Ray was an attorney, an attorney who liked to drive fast (by personal accounts). He knew the drill. It doesn't surprise me that he registered the car in Patty's name, should any potential liability claim come up (this wasn't out of character for him, either, from what I've researched -- he had very little assets registered to his name).

2. We've already discussed his questions/searches about how to kill a hard drive prior to his disappearance. He had legitimate reasons for wanting to erase his hard drive.

3. The eyewitness accounts in the bar in Wilkes-Barre. Eyewitness accounts are so often faulty (although I know it was a police officer, who you would think would be a better eyewitness). How do you explain the change of clothing? He left Bellefonte in jeans/blue jacket. The witness said he was wearing a suit at the bar. Patty said no suits were missing in his closet, and she knew because she did the laundry. Perhaps he bought a new one that Patty didn't know of? Plausible. But, if that behavior was out of character for Ray, I'd consider it suspect.

I admit, I haven't read all your blogs on the case. But some of the points you bring up show amazing research and thought. Are there any other pieces of evidence pointing you toward the walk-away theory?

Hind-sight is 20/20. Yes, knowing what we know now, those things might seem like evidence pointing to a set up for a walk-away. But, they can just as easily be explained away.

Last thought -- thru all your research, have you ever given serious thought to the possibility that there is another theory? I know it's far-fetched, but considering he was a DA, and on a joint task force with indictments bringing down a multi-million dollar drug ring, is it even feasible that he might have been put in the witness-protection program? That would explain why he:
1. took an unscheduled day off (out of character)
2. took his laptop with him (for others to professional erase and dump later)
3. left Lewisburg in another car (seems plausible).
4. No eyewitness reports of struggle on a busy street, in a busy college town on a Friday afternoon (there wouldn't have been a struggle).
5. Would also explain the lack of effort on the Bellefonte PD to do a thorough investigation (wouldn't the head honcho have to be in on it??)

Also, were his sunglasses and wallet ever found?

I dunno. Maybe it's crazy. Maybe I'm certifiable. I'm just throwing another possibility out there. Let me know your thoughts.

[J. J. in Phila]

Bolded, respectfully by me
In all the articles I have read, I never heard this mentioned. Can you cite the source? That puts a very interesting spin on the case, I must admit.
TIA.



Here: http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/426195.html It was reported in Mr. Bosak's old Q & A before that. I can give you exact date and time to within an hour when he heard from Sloane. :)

It's also mentioned in the "Sporadic Comments" blog found here: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/ That explains why this was an important clue.


If it was a walk-away, how did he plan it/sock money away for it? I'm sure the PD has examined his financial records very, very closely (this would be my very first line of investigation). To my knowledge, there were no suspicious financial movements either before or after April 15.


There are two entries on the same blog dealing some of the financial aspects.


And, this case has been shown on the national (perhaps international) media. If he's out there, why has no-one seen him? Or even, reportedly seen him, since those reports of him being in a bar in Wilkes-Barre, dressed in a suit?


One of folks that saw him was a police officer from out of town. There was a report in MI, a retired police officer. After the first year, there wasn't a lot of attention and someone familiar with how criminals hide could easily figure out how to.


Again, simply having the interest to erase a hard drive, doesn't seal the deal for me. I'm curious about it, too, and I'm sure a search for "how to" would should up on my computer. Coincidence, possibly?

And, if it was suicide by jumping off the bridge, it's hard to believe that his body would not have surfaced after all these years (when his laptop and hard-drive -much smaller items, did).

I just want some hard evidence, pointing one way or the other. But sadly, I think the case is about to be officially closed by the BPD. Just a feeling.


It doesn't seal the deal for me either. I give the odds, as of today, as:

Foul Play: 42% (-1)

Walkaway: 48% (n/c)

Suicide: 9% (+1)

Something Else: 1% (n/c)

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ -
I've been reading your blogs on the CDT's website. It is obvious that your interest in, and research of, this case is amazing. Kudos to you. I have gotten the impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you are leaning toward the "walked away" theory.

With this in mind, I just had to post a couple of questions/comments for you.

1. About registering the mini-Cooper in Patty's name - I work for an attorney, and he advises that a married couple or a couple living together should NEVER have both names on the registration. Why? Liability issues. Exactly what Ray was reported to have offered for his reasoning. In case of an accident, the owner could be sued personally (after insurance limits had been exhausted). If, say, my husband was the cause of a serious accident, and the vehicles were registered in both our names, that asset could be taken in a lawsuit. Ray was an attorney, an attorney who liked to drive fast (by personal accounts). He knew the drill. It doesn't surprise me that he registered the car in Patty's name, should any potential liability claim come up (this wasn't out of character for him, either, from what I've researched -- he had very little assets registered to his name).


Why not just registered in his name? She rarely drove it, by all accounts. Also, they were not married so he would lose the asset. I'm told that basically the Mini could have been taken in a hypothetical suit against him.


2. We've already discussed his questions/searches about how to kill a hard drive prior to his disappearance. He had legitimate reasons for wanting to erase his hard drive.


One of the ways specifically tossing it in the water. He may haver had legitimate reasons for wanting it erased, and returning it, but that wouldn't be an option after tossing it in water.


3. The eyewitness accounts in the bar in Wilkes-Barre. Eyewitness accounts are so often faulty (although I know it was a police officer, who you would think would be a better eyewitness). How do you explain the change of clothing? He left Bellefonte in jeans/blue jacket. The witness said he was wearing a suit at the bar. Patty said no suits were missing in his closet, and she knew because she did the laundry. Perhaps he bought a new one that Patty didn't know of? Plausible. But, if that behavior was out of character for Ray, I'd consider it suspect.


Or a rarely worn old suit. This sighting was in the evening of 4/18/05. That is enough time to change.


I admit, I haven't read all your blogs on the case. But some of the points you bring up show amazing research and thought. Are there any other pieces of evidence pointing you toward the walk-away theory?

Hind-sight is 20/20. Yes, knowing what we know now, those things might seem like evidence pointing to a set up for a walk-away. But, they can just as easily be explained away.


Yes, but let's say that a lot looks like a voluntary action (inclusive of suicide). He had a change in demeanor in the weeks before he disappeared and increased the pace of his work; that indicates he wanted to get things out of the way. The phone call led the police to an area 20-40 miles from where the car was found. He drove to an area out of the media market; he disappeared on a day when it make it harder to get the story out.

Some of those things could be coincidence, but I'd doubt all are.


Last thought -- thru all your research, have you ever given serious thought to the possibility that there is another theory? I know it's far-fetched, but considering he was a DA, and on a joint task force with indictments bringing down a multi-million dollar drug ring, is it even feasible that he might have been put in the witness-protection program? That would explain why he:
1. took an unscheduled day off (out of character)
2. took his laptop with him (for others to professional erase and dump later)
3. left Lewisburg in another car (seems plausible).
4. No eyewitness reports of struggle on a busy street, in a busy college town on a Friday afternoon (there wouldn't have been a struggle).
5. Would also explain the lack of effort on the Bellefonte PD to do a thorough investigation (wouldn't the head honcho have to be in on it??)


He was never a witness, the WPP tells the family, and frankly, there were better ways to handle it. I not only considered it, but there is a blog about it. :)

Gricar wasn't the prosecutor for the drug case; that was the state AG's Office and it was the current DA who actually prosecuted it.

He did take days off, including part of 4/14/05.


Also, were his sunglasses and wallet ever found?

I dunno. Maybe it's crazy. Maybe I'm certifiable. I'm just throwing another possibility out there. Let me know your thoughts.

No, sunglasses, wallet, keys and contacts were never found.

No, I've looked at a lot of stuff, including the possibility of a troll living under the bridge in Lewisburg. ;)

[Nowisthetime]

Nittany90, please use your reporter skills to inform the public that there are several long-time followers of Ray Gricar who do not believe he walked away or committed suicide.

Tell the public of the misdirections, smoke & mirrors, that are being spewed forth by LE about the disappearance of Ray Gricar.

Ask the public to question why LE only holds press releases 'to get the public's help' each year on the anniversary of the disappearance and brings out little "tidbits" of information then but at no other time.

Ask the public to question why supposedly 4-year-old information is just now coming to light; namely, strange "checks" on Ray Gricar's home computer. Ask the public if they believe a 60-year-old man would be using words like "fry a hard drive" if trying to find out how to erase a hard drive.

Ask the public to question the supposed "box" containing hard drive erasure material. First, Patty Fornicola "thought she remembered seeing a box" & Madiera stated there were rumors of such a box but none had been found. Next, came reports of "Gricar asking about how to erase a hard drive" (this "report" supposedly came from Steve Sloane). Now, LE "found the box", "Gricar searched for 'how to fry a hard drive" etc.

Ask the public to question why some are attempting to prove to the world that Ray Gricar walked away because of his "interest" in the story of Mel Wiley. (This "report" supposedly originated with Steve Sloane.) Karen Arnold is also being blamed for talking about Gricar's interest in Wiley; if you read her "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury" article, you will see that she never said that; in fact, she said the mention of Wiley in the office did not come from Gricar.

Ask the public to question why the onset of blobs & the latest news release are occurring near the upcoming election for DA.

Ask the public to question why Mr. Bob Buehner, friend & associate of Ray Gricar, does not believe Ray Gricar walked away or committed suicide and why he continues to press for an investigation into the possible/probable foul play involving Mr. Gricar.

Please, Nittany90.

[christine2448]

What about Carolynn? DIRC the name? Remember her, his long time associate who swore he was in PL at courthouse at time he was supposed to be in Lewisburg, NOT in his MINI.


:confused:

[Nowisthetime]

What about Carolynn? DIRC the name? Remember her, his long time associate who swore he was in PL at courthouse at time he was supposed to be in Lewisburg, NOT in his MINI.


:confused:

Carolyn Fenton told LE about seeing RG leaving the parking lot of the Centre Co. Courthouse on 04/15/05 around 3:00 PM. She was totally disregarded by LE because this sighting "didn't fit the timeline" that was established in Lewisburg. Ms. Fenton knew RG, which is something none of the other so-called "witnesses" could say. Yet, she wasn't believed while total strangers were . . . all to keep the investigation in Lewisburg & out of Bellefonte, IMO. The vehicle Ms. Fenton saw was a silver/gold metallic car. She was sure of the time due to the fact she was leaving the courthouse early and thought it was okay to do so since the DA was leaving also. This information was not made available to the public by LE until May 2006, a year after RG disappeared.

[nittany90]

Nittany90, please use your reporter skills to inform the public that there are several long-time followers of Ray Gricar who do not believe he walked away or committed suicide.

Tell the public of the misdirections, smoke & mirrors, that are being spewed forth by LE about the disappearance of Ray Gricar.

Ask the public to question why LE only holds press releases 'to get the public's help' each year on the anniversary of the disappearance and brings out little "tidbits" of information then but at no other time.

Ask the public to question why supposedly 4-year-old information is just now coming to light; namely, strange "checks" on Ray Gricar's home computer. Ask the public if they believe a 60-year-old man would be using words like "fry a hard drive" if trying to find out how to erase a hard drive.

Ask the public to question the supposed "box" containing hard drive erasure material. First, Patty Fornicola "thought she remembered seeing a box" & Madiera stated there were rumors of such a box but none had been found. Next, came reports of "Gricar asking about how to erase a hard drive" (this "report" supposedly came from Steve Sloane). Now, LE "found the box", "Gricar searched for 'how to fry a hard drive" etc.

Ask the public to question why some are attempting to prove to the world that Ray Gricar walked away because of his "interest" in the story of Mel Wiley. (This "report" supposedly originated with Steve Sloane.) Karen Arnold is also being blamed for talking about Gricar's interest in Wiley; if you read her "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury" article, you will see that she never said that; in fact, she said the mention of Wiley in the office did not come from Gricar.

Ask the public to question why the onset of blobs & the latest news release are occurring near the upcoming election for DA.

Ask the public to question why Mr. Bob Buehner, friend & associate of Ray Gricar, does not believe Ray Gricar walked away or committed suicide and why he continues to press for an investigation into the possible/probable foul play involving Mr. Gricar.

Please, Nittany90.

I wish I could, but I am no longer an active reporter. I did some stringer work for area newspapers (The Daily Item, the CDT, The Standard-Journal), but am currently not working the field.
But -- let me assure you, that I hold some of the same questions as you. I think the whole thing has been fumbled from the very beginning. And, I do think (after years of reading) that RG was the victim of foul play. I believe BB -- I wish he could use his power to force a federal investigation.

Even though I'm no longer working for the public, I'm still an investigative reporter at heart. So, I will keep searching.

For the record - I don't think a 60-year-old computer "newbie" would refer to deleting data as "how to fry a hard drive". Language is totally wrong. But, would be typical for an IT or computer-literate individual to write. Going with this line of reasoning, who in that catergory would have had access to his home computer?? My guess is the list isn't very long. And why release this info now? A deliberate attempt to squash public concern about foul play? If so, why? Who would benefit from the public's disinterest?

You seem to very knowledgeable about the case, too (and just today, I read a lot of the your same concerns on another crime board). I have a question: If RG never made it to Lewisburg, why did the tracker dogs detect his scent outside of the car? I believe he was in Lewisburg, but I am at a loss as to why not one fingerprint could be located inside the mini-cooper, unless someone deliberately wiped down ALL of the prints.

Do you think PF is involved? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather discuss in private.

Since his car was found in Lewisburg, and several eyewitness accounts put him in Lewisburg on 04-15-05, why did Union County not investigate and prosecute the case? Why did BFD take jurisdiction?

Does the Luna case have anything to do with this case?

[Nowisthetime]

It's too bad you're no longer a reporter, dang it!

As far as the dog finding the scent in the parking lot. With all the other smoke & mirrors by LE, how do we know what was used to scent the dogs? Supposedly, LE picked up a piece of clothing at PF's house. Isn't it possible the dog scented the wrong person? I don't know much about dogs/scenting, but I will try to find out from an expert & let you know. A poster on another board was extremely learned about this; however, she was banned, the reason of which is unknown.

I don't know about PF. Normally, the SO would be the person investigated the most. She passed a polygraph . . . months after the disappearance. She was interviewed by a PSP profiler . . . who came up with "suicide". What I believe to be crucial info. was withheld from the public (the MW, the tan car, the construction worker) for a year because of 'concerns for the family'. Baloney!

I don't know why Union Co. did not investigate anything. According to Bellefonte PD Chief SW, they "would hold onto the case".

I also don't know if the Luna case is related. I found out about RG while reading about Luna. Strange that both were DA's, I believe both were murdered, & both ended up in PA.

If you have a week of spare time, go to the other board & read the "sticky links". Of course there won't be much from the CDT, as it's about all gone, but there are other references still there.

This is my opinion, to which I am entitled. I am here because I believe the readers here need to see an "alternative" theory as to what happened to Ray Gricar & why some of us don't believe he walked away.

[nittany90]

It's too bad you're no longer a reporter, dang it!

As far as the dog finding the scent in the parking lot. With all the other smoke & mirrors by LE, how do we know what was used to scent the dogs? Supposedly, LE picked up a piece of clothing at PF's house. Isn't it possible the dog scented the wrong person? I don't know much about dogs/scenting, but I will try to find out from an expert & let you know. A poster on another board was extremely learned about this; however, she was banned, the reason of which is unknown.

I don't know about PF. Normally, the SO would be the person investigated the most. She passed a polygraph . . . months after the disappearance. She was interviewed by a PSP profiler . . . who came up with "suicide". What I believe to be crucial info. was withheld from the public (the MW, the tan car, the construction worker) for a year because of 'concerns for the family'. Baloney!

I don't know why Union Co. did not investigate anything. According to Bellefonte PD Chief SW, they "would hold onto the case".

I also don't know if the Luna case is related. I found out about RG while reading about Luna. Strange that both were DA's, I believe both were murdered, & both ended up in PA.

If you have a week of spare time, go to the other board & read the "sticky links". Of course there won't be much from the CDT, as it's about all gone, but there are other references still there.

This is my opinion, to which I am entitled. I am here because I believe the readers here need to see an "alternative" theory as to what happened to Ray Gricar & why some of us don't believe he walked away.

The "wrong" scent -- PFs? I know she passed a polygraph, but I don't think she had an iron-clad alibi, right? Tell me what you know about the MW and the construction worker.
RE the Luna case -- in addition to the eerie similarities you already mentioned, they were both working on big heroin cases. And the Luna case has never been solved, either (LE can't decide whether the pen wounds were self-inflicted or not).

I am trying to catch up with the sticky links. Interesting that the nephew occassionally posts there, too.

Thanks for holding onto the case. You're not alone.

[Nowisthetime]

This appeared in May 2006, 1 yr. after RG disappeared.

Police revelations refocus attention on missing D.A.
Police seek 'construction-worker type.'

By Pete Bosak
pbosak@centredaily.com

BELLEFONTE -- Previously undisclosed news that missing former District Attorney Ray Gricar may have been seen talking to an unknown woman the day he disappeared set off media firestorm in Bellefonte today.

Bellefonte police Chief Sean Weaver and the lead investigator on the case, Darryl Zaccagni, said they have fielded calls all morning from national media, including Fox News' Greta Van Susteren.

Law enforcement officials were seeking to put a positive spin on the events, saying the information -- that a witness reported seeing Gricar talking to a woman in a Lewisburg antique mall on April 15, 2005, the day he disappeared -- is old news to investigators.

Zaccagni said he revealed the information this week, as Dateline NBC is preparing a story on Gricar, in hopes of finding the woman.

"This is definitely not a new revelation," Weaver said. "But we're hoping this national attention, in the form of Dateline NBC, will give us that one lead we need to find Ray."

Zaccagni revealed today that police are also looking for a "construction-worker type" who was seen leaning into the passenger side of a red Mini-Cooper -- the type of car Gricar drove -- in the parking lot of the Lewisburg antique mall.
(snip)

[J. J. in Phila]

Ask the public to question why supposedly 4-year-old information is just now coming to light; namely, strange "checks" on Ray Gricar's home computer. Ask the public if they believe a 60-year-old man would be using words like "fry a hard drive" if trying to find out how to erase a hard drive.


Mr. Gricar was 59 year old man whose two closest friends, Sloane and Walker, where in their 30's to early 40's, whose girlfriend was 40, and who had two nephews in their early 30's. Anyone doing a search would likely find the word "fry" or "fried" in relation to a bad or destroyed hard drive, and, if he were moderately bright (and Mr. Gricar was more than "moderately bright") incorporate them into the next search.



Ask the public to question the supposed "box" containing hard drive erasure material. First, Patty Fornicola "thought she remembered seeing a box" & Madiera stated there were rumors of such a box but none had been found. Next, came reports of "Gricar asking about how to erase a hard drive" (this "report" supposedly came from Steve Sloane). Now, LE "found the box", "Gricar searched for 'how to fry a hard drive" etc.


I don't know where you got Sloane, and Assistant District Attorney, but at least one of folks he spoke to wasn't from the DA's office; that was mentioned in a blog about six weeks ago.


Ask the public to question why some are attempting to prove to the world that Ray Gricar walked away because of his "interest" in the story of Mel Wiley. (This "report" supposedly originated with Steve Sloane.) Karen Arnold is also being blamed for talking about Gricar's interest in Wiley; if you read her "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury" article, you will see that she never said that; in fact, she said the mention of Wiley in the office did not come from Gricar.


A very unusual topic since the case was from Ohio and happened three years before Ms. Arnold became employed there. Even more unusual, Mr. Gricar did talk about the case with Sloane, who didn't start at the office until seven years late (and was almost immediately laid off).

Blog entry, about two months ago, on that, and the story was reported in 2007.


Ask the public to question why the onset of blobs & the latest news release are occurring near the upcoming election for DA.


I only know of one that started, Slamdunks, but he doesn't exclusively cover the Gricar case. In my case, I'm basically a continuation of the blog started by the reporter in the case Mr. Bosak, who started about six months ago when he moved out of the area; he covered it in a general crime blog before that. It was his suggestion that take it; the first time he suggested it, I said no. I'd done two "guest blogs" for him in November and December.

I'm not sure what other "blobs" you are referring to.


Ask the public to question why Mr. Bob Buehner, friend & associate of Ray Gricar, does not believe Ray Gricar walked away or committed suicide and why he continues to press for an investigation into the possible/probable foul play involving Mr. Gricar.

Please, Nittany90.

The main reasons are that he doesn't want to believe that his friend either walked away or committed suicide and perhaps, as I do, he has a problem with why Mr. Gricar didn't claim his pension. He may also be troubled by a woman being seen with him in Lewisburg.

I think that I have to ask why some posters want to specifically guide the discussion to only foul play, even to the point of stretching the facts a bit.

[J. J. in Phila]

The "wrong" scent -- PFs? I know she passed a polygraph, but I don't think she had an iron-clad alibi, right? Tell me what you know about the MW and the construction worker.
RE the Luna case -- in addition to the eerie similarities you already mentioned, they were both working on big heroin cases. And the Luna case has never been solved, either (LE can't decide whether the pen wounds were self-inflicted or not).

I am trying to catch up with the sticky links. Interesting that the nephew occassionally posts there, too.

Thanks for holding onto the case. You're not alone.

First, LE collected the scented item, so there was no "wrong scent." PEF went home after work and then to the gym. Frome everything that I've pieced together, she didn't have enough time to drive to Lewisburg and back, and then call RFG's cell phone.

She was checked initially and was my first suspect, until that theory fell under the weight of evidence.

As for Luna.

1. Luna left from the office.

2. Left his cell phone in the office and didn't call home.

3. Left late at night.

4. Drove substantially longer.

5. His body was found. Physical injuries known

6. Much blood in the car.

7. Car not parked, it was in a ditch.

8. In a sparsely populated area.

9. Luna was heavily in debt.

10. Money, evidence, missing from a case that Luna prosecuted.

11. Substantial age and race difference.

[nittany90]

JJ and Now --
Thanks to both of you for your replies. JJ, are you a reporter?
I personally benefit from both of your perspectives. You've both obviously been sleuthing a lot longer than I have, and although I am definitely leaning toward foul play, I respect and gather all the info out there, including differing perspectives. So, keep it up. In an effort to get to the truth, I'm anxious to prove or disprove any of the theories.
I am attempting to read all the stickies, any news stories/press releases I can get my hands on. I also have some interviews with some key players in the works. I don't have any grand illusions about solving the case, there's simply too many loose ends that I can't stomach. I'm not sure, with his respected position, why there hasn't been more attention on this case. I don't know why, I just NEED to sleuth.

Questions for either/both of you:

Was the FBI ever involved in the investigation?
Why did the case fall into BPD's jurisdiction, rather than Lewisburg's PD?
Does PF still work for the DA's office?
Have either of you attempted to get info from the PD? Any success?
Is it true that the BPD has refused to give family RG's cell phone records?
Clarify something for me -- Did PF call RG's cell? I had read reports that he had called her and advised that he wouldn't be home into time to let the dog out. What time did the phone call take place? Is there more than 1 phone call between them on 4-15-05?
Sloane -- JJ, you said he was laid off. I thought he was some kind of medical leave when RG disappeared??
JJ -- what are your impressions on the construction worker? Could he have left the ashes in the passenger side?
Who is the mystery woman? Any proof that RG was having an affair?
Was there, or was there not, fingerprints (not RG's or PF's) found on the outside of the mini-cooper?

[Nowisthetime]

I am definitely leaning toward foul play; in fact, I am leaning so far I am almost on the ground & have been for at least 3.5 yrs.! I tend to believe RG's family & his ex-wife that RG would not "walkaway" & leave his family, especially his daughter, to wonder what happened to him.

The FBI reportedly checked out RG's finances. The FBI should also have checked any fingerprint(s) found. The FBI reportedly checked the hard drive once it was discovered, but it was damaged to badly for them to gain any information from it.

The only explanation ever given as to why BPD got & kept the case is because RG was reported missing from Bellefonte.

PF does still work in the DA's office.

A poster on another board has contacted Matt Rickard; in fact, she sent him an email last week & got a reply. Yep, he still workin on the case.

To my knowledge, BPD has never officially released the phone records to anyone.

RG reportedly called PF at the courthouse on 04/15/05 from his cell phone, while on Rt. 192 at approx. 11:15 to 11:30 hrs. PF reportedly called his cell phone numerous times during the evening of 04/15/05 but got no response.

It is my understanding that Sloane was on sick leave a month or so ago & had been for some time.

Two women were reportedly checked out as the Mystery Woman; according to LE, neither of them had seen RG the weekend of 04/15. One of RG's wives, I believe, was contacted, but I don't remember exactly. A nurse he had dated at one time may have been the other so-called MW. There was a report, unsubstianted, that a man fitting RG's description had been in a shop at the SOS with a MW; according to the unsubstianted report, RG & the MW were inside the SOS, which is strange since the dogs did not track RG out of the SOS parking lot. (There is a good bit of info available on the MW.) I don't know of any affair RG may have been having, but I wish he had been.

Depending on what LE decides to tell at any given time, we have been told there were 5 prints, 5 sets of prints, 3 prints, 1 print on outside of driver's side window; I do not remember what M. Rickard's last report was, but I belive it was there were no prints found.

You know just about as much as anyone else. The information changes from time to time, so who knows???

[J. J. in Phila]

Questions for either/both of you:

Was the FBI ever involved in the investigation?
Why did the case fall into BPD's jurisdiction, rather than Lewisburg's PD?
Does PF still work for the DA's office?
Have either of you attempted to get info from the PD? Any success?
Is it true that the BPD has refused to give family RG's cell phone records?
Clarify something for me -- Did PF call RG's cell? I had read reports that he had called her and advised that he wouldn't be home into time to let the dog out. What time did the phone call take place? Is there more than 1 phone call between them on 4-15-05?
Sloane -- JJ, you said he was laid off. I thought he was some kind of medical leave when RG disappeared??
JJ -- what are your impressions on the construction worker? Could he have left the ashes in the passenger side?
Who is the mystery woman? Any proof that RG was having an affair?
Was there, or was there not, fingerprints (not RG's or PF's) found on the outside of the mini-cooper?

I am not a journalist. Mr. Bosak asked me at one point to take on his blog in December or January (it was well before he stopped), and one of the reasons I declined was that I wasn't a journalist. I've never even taken a class on journalism.

The FBI provided technical support, i.e. monitoring his financial records, but I've never of them being in the field.

It was with the BPD because that was where the report was made. I do have an LE source, but I don't want to say who or where. It's intermittent.

Once, a few years ago, I asked Tony Gricar about the phone records and he said it wasn't his decision.

PEF made a series of calls to RFG's cell phone when he didn't return home. RFG's call to the office was reported to be at 11:12 AM; it came from the Brush Valley area.

Sloane was laid off shortly after he started in 1992; I was referring to his conversation about Wiley. It look like it occurred at least 8 years after Wiley vanished.

If the mystery woman was known, she wouldn't be a mystery. :) I've been given the name of the person, and seen a photo, who they thought she was and can confirm that the person did know RFG. No time line was developed on her, but she was supposedly out of town visiting friends in greater NYC area when he disappeared. I've never thought of her as suspect but as a potential helper.

I only know of one witness that saw the construction worker, but there was construction at the Street of Shops across from the lot.

The cigarette smoke has a lot of possibilities.

I've heard numerous rumors of affairs, but rumors on this type are common for public officials. (I'm an ex politician and was supposedly sleeping with ten different women while I holding office.)

No readable prints were found in the car, and one of RFG was found on the outside.

[J. J. in Phila]

The FBI reportedly checked out RG's finances. The FBI should also have checked any fingerprint(s) found. The FBI reportedly checked the hard drive once it was discovered, but it was damaged to badly for them to gain any information from it.


The PSP did the print work.



Two women were reportedly checked out as the Mystery Woman; according to LE, neither of them had seen RG the weekend of 04/15. One of RG's wives, I believe, was contacted, but I don't remember exactly. A nurse he had dated at one time may have been the other so-called MW. There was a report, unsubstianted, that a man fitting RG's description had been in a shop at the SOS with a MW; according to the unsubstianted report, RG & the MW were inside the SOS, which is strange since the dogs did not track RG out of the SOS parking lot. (There is a good bit of info available on the MW.) I don't know of any affair RG may have been having, but I wish he had been.


Actually, there was only one person who matched the general description of the "mystery woman." Only one person saw him with her.

Two former girlfriends were checked a "nurse" and the "Harrisburg woman."

[nittany90]

I am not a journalist. Mr. Bosak asked me at one point to take on his blog in December or January (it was well before he stopped), and one of the reasons I declined was that I wasn't a journalist. I've never even taken a class on journalism.

The FBI provided technical support, i.e. monitoring his financial records, but I've never of them being in the field.

It was with the BPD because that was where the report was made. I do have an LE source, but I don't want to say who or where. It's intermittent.

Once, a few years ago, I asked Tony Gricar about the phone records and he said it wasn't his decision.

PEF made a series of calls to RFG's cell phone when he didn't return home. RFG's call to the office was reported to be at 11:12 AM; it came from the Brush Valley area.

Sloane was laid off shortly after he started in 1992; I was referring to his conversation about Wiley. It look like it occurred at least 8 years after Wiley vanished.

If the mystery woman was known, she wouldn't be a mystery. :) I've been given the name of the person, and seen a photo, who they thought she was and can confirm that the person did know RFG. No time line was developed on her, but she was supposedly out of town visiting friends in greater NYC area when he disappeared. I've never thought of her as suspect but as a potential helper.

I only know of one witness that saw the construction worker, but there was construction at the Street of Shops across from the lot.

The cigarette smoke has a lot of possibilities.

I've heard numerous rumors of affairs, but rumors on this type are common for public officials. (I'm an ex politician and was supposedly sleeping with ten different women while I holding office.)

No readable prints were found in the car, and one of RFG was found on the outside.

I thought Sloane was an ADA when Gricar disappeared? How, if he was laid off in 1992?

Care to elaborate on your "possibilities" regarding the cigarette smoke? Did this Mystery Woman/potential helper smoke?

Ex-politician, huh? Seems like you're very famous on at least one other website :rolleyes:

How do you know so much about a cold case from Ohio? Are you just interested in cold cases generally?

Anyway, thanks for the help. I'm off to read stickies again!

[J. J. in Phila]

I thought Sloane was an ADA when Gricar disappeared? How, if he was laid off in 1992?

Care to elaborate on your "possibilities" regarding the cigarette smoke? Did this Mystery Woman/potential helper smoke?

Ex-politician, huh? Seems like you're very famous on at least one other website :rolleyes:

How do you know so much about a cold case from Ohio? Are you just interested in cold cases generally?

Anyway, thanks for the help. I'm off to read stickies again!

Sloane was hired in 1992 and laid off in 1992. He went back in the spring of 2003.

I'm very famous on a lot of other websites. I've also held local public office three times. Municipal level. Interestingly, after both the BPD and Pete Bosak checked me out, the verdict was "pristine." :)

No, Mel Wiley was mention in Time in 1985. It became relevant when another poster asked me if there any cases where someone responsible walked away. I mentioned Wiley with another case, that set off a chain of events. I had to Google "Ohio Police Chief missing 1985 time" to find the name.

[nittany90]

Sloane was hired in 1992 and laid off in 1992. He went back in the spring of 2003.

I'm very famous on a lot of other websites. I've also held local public office three times. Municipal level. Interestingly, after both the BPD and Pete Bosak checked me out, the verdict was "pristine." :)

No, Mel Wiley was mention in Time in 1985. It became relevant when another poster asked me if there any cases where someone responsible walked away. I mentioned Wiley with another case, that set off a chain of events. I had to Google "Ohio Police Chief missing 1985 time" to find the name.

If you learned about the Mel Wiley case in 1985, how did you connect Gricar talking about Mel Wiley prior to his disappearance? Weird....

[Nowisthetime]

I think this pretty well sums up the "investigation" into the disappearance of Ray Gricar. I have no problem with LE not releasing important information; however, when they do, they ought to keep their stories straight. This is one example of the misinformation released to the public; there are others, including the "fingerprint" info.

The contradictions about the software seemed to have sprouted legs....they just keeps growing.

First, Patty Fornicola recalls seeing a software box but it isn't found.

Second, Madeira said there was no receipt or evidence that Gricar ever purchased any hard drive erasing software.

Rickard then says Gricar did indeed purchase the software.

And today, it's reported that Shawn Weaver said they found the software box a long time ago.

CDT journalist Sara Ganim says I need to look at the bigger picture.
Well folks - the picture ain't purty. Bellefonte apparently can't get their **** straight.

From the looks of it.....I think they're working overtime to try and sweep Gricar under the rug before the election of a new DA.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think this pretty well sums up the "investigation" into the disappearance of Ray Gricar. I have no problem with LE not releasing important information; however, when they do, they ought to keep their stories straight. This is one example of the misinformation released to the public; there are others, including the "fingerprint" info.

The contradictions about the software seemed to have sprouted legs....they just keeps growing.

First, Patty Fornicola recalls seeing a software box but it isn't found.

Second, Madeira said there was no receipt or evidence that Gricar ever purchased any hard drive erasing software.

Rickard then says Gricar did indeed purchase the software.

And today, it's reported that Shawn Weaver said they found the software box a long time ago.

CDT journalist Sara Ganim says I need to look at the bigger picture.
Well folks - the picture ain't purty. Bellefonte apparently can't get their **** straight.

From the looks of it.....I think they're working overtime to try and sweep Gricar under the rug before the election of a new DA.


First of all, Fornicola said she thought she had seen a box for the erasing software. LE reported that they found the box, but not that Fornicola had possession of it.

There are, obviously, selective released, but the story is the same.

I stated, at the beginning of the week, that I'd never e-mailed Detective Rickard; when I made the statement, it was accurate. I never said I didn't communicate with him.

[Nowisthetime]

Read today's 4:59 AM "The Daily Collegian" report on the views of the candidates for DA, a report that hasn't made it to the CDT at 10:00 AM!

[J. J. in Phila]

Read today's 4:59 AM "The Daily Collegian" report on the views of the candidates for DA, a report that hasn't made it to the CDT at 10:00 AM!

The one who said the most was Madeira. It's a political hot potato, and he is wearing oven mitts.

[Nowisthetime]

MM's response was more of the same. The only "new" info. was how he felt when he heard RG was missing.

Detailed . . . I think not!

[christine2448]

snips

As far as the dog finding the scent in the parking lot. With all the other smoke & mirrors by LE, how do we know what was used to scent the dogs? Supposedly, LE picked up a piece of clothing at PF's house. Isn't it possible the dog scented the wrong person? I don't know much about dogs/scenting, but I will try to find out from an expert & let you know.

This is my opinion, to which I am entitled. I am here because I believe the readers here need to see an "alternative" theory as to what happened to Ray Gricar & why some of us don't believe he walked away.


I have posted K9 training manuals here on the site somewhere....but you can google and find out a lot of info on K9, dog scent.

As far as your opinion, "to which you are entitled"..there are MANY who are unsure what exactly happened to Mr Gricar...actually, only those involved could possibly know. ;) We discuss it ALL here. Nice to have the interest in the case again, it's been 4 long years of allotta bout nothing...so little to go on!

Your interest and participation are greatly appreciated!!! :clap::blowkiss:

[nittany90]

Okay, this is for all of you. :)
Can you give me a link, an official cite, stating exactly what PF said Gricar relayed to her in that infamous "last phone call"? I've heard conflicting comments and generalities, but I'm looking to see if he ever actually precisely stated his destination for the day. "I'm taking the day off, on 192 headed toward Lewisburg to do some antiquing" or "I'm on 192, going to that little Street of Shops in Lewisburg".

Also, are there any evidence photos available showing the exact location in the SOS parking lot where the mini-cooper was found? I'm interested in pure logistics.

On a coincidental sidenote (JJ, this one is right up your alley) anyone have any idea how many red and white mini-coopers were registered to Lewisburg residents on April 15, 2005? I just happened to pass one (a very close match to Gricar's) on Rt. 192 in Lewisburg today Friday, April 17 at noon. What are the odds?

I say start at the beginning. All reports tend to show that Gricar was in Lewisburg around noon on Friday, 4-15-05. Weather pretty similar to today (then - 56, clear, slight wind blowing) (today, 65, clear, slight wind blowing). I just happened to end up at the SOS parking lot at 12:15 pm today. My impressions? There are 5 rows of parking spaces within the gravel/dirt parking lot on the corner of Water and St. John's Streets. Each row can comfortably hold 6 vehicles. That's a capacity of 30 vehicles in that one lot alone. In addition, there are several designated parking spaces on Water Street directly in front of the SOS, and more directly in front of the Park (on the same side of the SOS). Add 5 more spots on St. John Street, facing the SOS. Today (approximately noon, Friday mid-April) all spots were taken (roughly 40-45 vehicles crammed in a very small area). Assuming people's habits have not changed much over the last 4 years (and from the many, many times I've been on this street, I don't think they have), that means that we might conclude that the parking lot was pretty much the same at noon, Friday, April 15, 2005 (or am I leaping here?)

If there was any type of struggle, any type of eye-catching activity that we would expect from a man being forcibly removed during an abduction, WHY didn't anyone see anything? In the 10 minutes I stood there taking photos and taking it all in, there was pedestrian activity all around me. Not to mention, there is a house right on the edge of the parking lot. But, no-one saw anything? Of course, my limp theory does not preclude the calmness of a voluntary walk-away or a "casual" transfer between vehicles, or an average man taking a casual stroll down to the river with suicidal plans.

Another curious note. Directly beside the SOS, there is a small paved, driveway (sort of a back-entry for deliveries) sloping toward the river that is very secluded. The sloped area was not visible from the parking lot. It lead directly to the water. Also seemed to offer the very shortest path to the water. Hmmm...

And for the comments about offering different theories -- we all have one or more. The more we brainstorm, theorize, perhaps we can narrow down our theories to a reasonable conclusion. At least we can hope.

[Nowisthetime]

Check out this site; it has the most concise information that I know of ref. Ray F. Gricar.


http://politigal.googlepages.com/raygricar

[J. J. in Phila]

MM's response was more of the same. The only "new" info. was how he felt when he heard RG was missing.

Detailed . . . I think not!

The "new" information was the computer searches. It was an indirect way to remind the other candidates that he has information they do not.

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, this is for all of you. :)
Can you give me a link, an official cite, stating exactly what PF said Gricar relayed to her in that infamous "last phone call"? I've heard conflicting comments and generalities, but I'm looking to see if he ever actually precisely stated his destination for the day. "I'm taking the day off, on 192 headed toward Lewisburg to do some antiquing" or "I'm on 192, going to that little Street of Shops in Lewisburg".


Most of this was cited in the blog entry called "The Call About the Dog."

"Fornicola: And he called and said that, he said "I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Thanks. I love you." I said, "I love you too," and that was the last I heard from him."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

Some accounts say "heading for Lewisburg," and say "Honey," the dog.



On a coincidental sidenote (JJ, this one is right up your alley) anyone have any idea how many red and white mini-coopers were registered to Lewisburg residents on April 15, 2005? I just happened to pass one (a very close match to Gricar's) on Rt. 192 in Lewisburg today Friday, April 17 at noon. What are the odds?


Three including the one Gricar was driving. One had a Maryland plate. Note that I do not list reported sightings of a Mini in my witness list, only those sightings of him including those with the Mini.


I say start at the beginning. All reports tend to show that Gricar was in Lewisburg around noon on Friday, 4-15-05. Weather pretty similar to today (then - 56, clear, slight wind blowing) (today, 65, clear, slight wind blowing). I just happened to end up at the SOS parking lot at 12:15 pm today. My impressions? There are 5 rows of parking spaces within the gravel/dirt parking lot on the corner of Water and St. John's Streets. Each row can comfortably hold 6 vehicles. T

I do not have a specific time of 12:15 only around lunchtime.

The first sightings, in the early afternoon, were across from the Packwood Museum. The SoS parking lot sightings were between 5:30 and 6:30. Both clusters were multiple sightings. Mr. Gricar was also seen in the SoS during that period.

There is a blog on that as well, along with a combined witness list.

[nittany90]

Most of this was cited in the blog entry called "The Call About the Dog."

"Fornicola: And he called and said that, he said "I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Thanks. I love you." I said, "I love you too," and that was the last I heard from him."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

Some accounts say "heading for Lewisburg," and say "Honey," the dog.



Three including the one Gricar was driving. One had a Maryland plate. Note that I do not list reported sightings of a Mini in my witness list, only those sightings of him including those with the Mini.



I do not have a specific time of 12:15 only around lunchtime.

The first sightings, in the early afternoon, were across from the Packwood Museum. The SoS parking lot sightings were between 5:30 and 6:30. Both clusters were multiple sightings. Mr. Gricar was also seen in the SoS during that period.

There is a blog on that as well, along with a combined witness list.

Thanks, JJ for the cite. So, Patty didn't KNOW what he was wearing on Friday am (he was still in bed when she left for work). We're going on eyewitness testimony to explain what he was wearing on Friday in Lewisburg. Do you find it curious that he was reported wearing the same clothes as verified on the video camera the previous evening in Bellefonte? There were so many conflicting reports about Patty stating he had said "I'm on 192 headed toward Lewisburg" in his 11:12 am phone call, and I couldn't understand why, with that info, it would take PSP until 6:30 pm Saturday to find his mini.

Any idea on the exact spot the mini was found? I found a photo online indicating the spot, but it was the wrong season (evidenced by the outlying trees being in full-leaf status, but couldn't verify it's source (and I don't want to screw up my list of evidence without at least a reportable source). I'm interested to know, if sitting in his car/standing by his car, what he could have seen and couldn't have seen around him.

BTW, I don't have a specific time of 12:15 in Lewisburg either, only around noon. I just tried to pick a medium timeframe for my photos.

I've only skimmed your blogs (it's on my list of "to-dos", but with a husband and kids and job, I can only obsess so much) -- not to question you in the least (no offense meant), do you provide links to sources?

Have you visited the parking lot/SOS? Your impressions?

[J. J. in Phila]

[B]

Thanks, JJ for the cite. So, Patty didn't KNOW what he was wearing on Friday am (he was still in bed when she left for work). We're going on eyewitness testimony to explain what he was wearing on Friday in Lewisburg. Do you find it curious that he was reported wearing the same clothes as verified on the video camera the previous evening in Bellefonte? There were so many conflicting reports about Patty stating he had said "I'm on 192 headed toward Lewisburg" in his 11:12 am phone call, and I couldn't understand why, with that info, it would take PSP until 6:30 pm Saturday to find his mini.


The call was 20-40 miles from Lewisburg, and there dead zone between that area and Lewisburg. I actually did provide a link that showed LE was still checking out the possibility something happened in Brush Valley even after the Mini was found.

The photo was from Tony Gricar.


BTW, I don't have a specific time of 12:15 in Lewisburg either, only around noon. I just tried to pick a medium timeframe for my photos.

I've only skimmed your blogs (it's on my list of "to-dos", but with a husband and kids and job, I can only obsess so much) -- not to question you in the least (no offense meant), do you provide links to sources?

Have you visited the parking lot/SOS? Your impressions?

When it comes to the evidence, generally. A bit, "McKnight's witness," came from a LE source as to the time/location. (I actually had the blog on the 4/15 Lewisburg witnesses vetted by my sources before posting it.)

Some things are just so well known, e.g. the call was placed from Brush Valley, it isn't worth finding the 4-5 sources that say it. Generally, if you ask a question that is a bit obscure (like when Sloane started at the DA's office) I'll try to find a reference.

[J. J. in Phila]

On the clothing, the fleece was outerwear. I checked the temperature and it was in 50's that morning. There isn't anything unusual in wearing the same outer garment two days in a row, with similar weather condition.

I will wear jeans two days in a row as well.

[Nowisthetime]

Check out this site; it has the most concise information that I know of ref. Ray F. Gricar.

http://politigal.googlepages.com/raygricar

In case you missed it the 1st time.

[txsleuth]

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

[J. J. in Phila]

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

First, RFG asked about erasing the drive 14-16 months before he disappeared.

Second, it depends of who was had access to the laptop when the searches were made. If they are time stamped, and there is evidence that PEF was someplace else at the time, that explodes that theory.

[nittany90]

In case you missed it the 1st time.

Thank you. That's where I found TG's photo of the SOS parking lot.

[nittany90]

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

We know that either before or after his disappearance, PF had his passwords, because LE reported she was checking his personal email accounts for activity. Heck, this was reported by LE to be occuring less than 2 months after the disappearance (and before the lie detector tests). I'll try to find a link.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3781.html

WTH? LE allowing regular citizens (not to mention those very, very close to the investigation) monitor a missing person's online and financial activity? Just another screw up, IMO.

Was it ever determined if the bottled water (that was proven to be Gricar's) was taken from home (normal "brand" they bought and stocked at home) or do LE suspect it was purchased between Bellefonte and Lewisburg? I hope all the little mini markets between Bellefonte and Lewisburg were checked (for ID accounts and possible videotape evidence). Of course, it could have been left in his car from a previous trip, but to leave "trash" in his vehicle, seems out of character for Gricar.

Why, if it was a walkaway (and he had an accomplice) would he have allowed himself to be seen? Why deliberately go into the SOS, or on Market Street, just to be ID'd? Why not just sit in the car and wait for his accomplice? He was a smart man. He knew his disappearance would set off a local media frenzy. From where his car was supposedly parked, he had a clear view of all of the streets into the parking lot (hell, he could even see the Rt. 45 bridge from that location).

[J. J. in Phila]

Was it ever determined if the bottled water (that was proven to be Gricar's) was taken from home (normal "brand" they bought and stocked at home) or do LE suspect it was purchased between Bellefonte and Lewisburg? I hope all the little mini markets between Bellefonte and Lewisburg were checked (for ID accounts and possible videotape evidence). Of course, it could have been left in his car from a previous trip, but to leave "trash" in his vehicle, seems out of character for Gricar.


The tried to see where irt was purchased, but I've never heard the response.


Why, if it was a walkaway (and he had an accomplice) would he have allowed himself to be seen? Why deliberately go into the SOS, or on Market Street, just to be ID'd? Why not just sit in the car and wait for his accomplice? He was a smart man. He knew his disappearance would set off a local media frenzy. From where his car was supposedly parked, he had a clear view of all of the streets into the parking lot (hell, he could even see the Rt. 45 bridge from that location).

He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

No media, no police.

If it was a willing attempt to walk away, the police would spend time looking in Lewisburg and in the river. It was the second potential delaying tactic.

[nittany90]

The tried to see where irt was purchased, but I've never heard the response.



He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

No media, no police.

If it was a willing attempt to walk away, the police would spend time looking in Lewisburg and in the river. It was the second potential delaying tactic.

Second potential delaying tactic? Elaborate, please.

[txsleuth]

"who had access to the laptop when the searches were made" - ???

The searches were done on the *home* computer JJ.

[nittany90]

The tried to see where irt was purchased, but I've never heard the response.

He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

No media, no police.

If it was a willing attempt to walk away, the police would spend time looking in Lewisburg and in the river. It was the second potential delaying tactic.

Yes -- but he obviously had no "plan" to disappear that time. If walkaway is correct -- then he DID NOT plan to return this time, and therefore, should have been very cautious not to have an eyewitnesses to his presence. Now, if it was suicide he was planning, he would WANT witnesses to place him in Lewisburg on that day, or at the very least, not care if there were witnesses. But I have a hard time thinking a man who went there intending to kill himself, would have stopped in the SOS beforehand (and no body to me greatly lessens the suicide scenario).

[txsleuth]

JJ wrote this above:

He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

He failed to mention that Gricar was most likely separated from his then wife & in the process of a divorce...and may have possibly been on a date to Cleveland with girlfriend Patty Fornicola...hence the need for discretion.

[nittany90]

JJ wrote this above:



He failed to mention that Gricar was most likely separated from his then wife & in the process of a divorce...and may have possibly been on a date to Cleveland with girlfriend Patty Fornicola...hence the need for discretion.

Just because somebody did something ONCE in 59 years, doesn't mean he has a history of that behavior, and shouldn't be confused as such, JMO. Obviously, PEF was worried enough about his short absence to repeatedly call his cellphone and file a missing persons' report when he didn't return home in the timeframe she thought he should. And I guess she knows him better than any of us do.

[J. J. in Phila]

Second potential delaying tactic? Elaborate, please.


The first potential one was that cell phone call. It kept the police looking in Brush Valley. The Mini was actually discovered by accident.

I didn't mention separation because he was living with his wife, according to his friend, Steve Sloane. I'd also question how his then wife could have known he didn't return home that night unless she was living there. He was also at a Cleveland Indians ball game. A bit more stretching of the truth from some quarters.

I also did not claim it was a pattern, only that he had been incommunicado for 36 hours one, whereabouts unknown, and nobody called the police, that time. It may establish an expectation.

PEF could not checked his computer two months afterward; the computers were taken on 4/17/05. The may have routed his personal account to a different computer.

[nittany90]

The first potential one was that cell phone call. It kept the police looking in Brush Valley. The Mini was actually discovered by accident.

I didn't mention separation because he was living with his wife, according to his friend, Steve Sloane. I'd also question how his then wife could have known he didn't return home that night unless she was living there. He was also at a Cleveland Indians ball game. A bit more stretching of the truth from some quarters.

I also did not claim it was a pattern, only that he had been incommunicado for 36 hours one, whereabouts unknown, and nobody called the police, that time. It may establish an expectation.

PEF could not checked his computer two months afterward; the computers were taken on 4/17/05. The may have routed his personal account to a different computer.

Thanks for the info on the first delay tactic.

I didn't say she was checking his computer -- I said PF was monitoring his email accounts -- info provided by LE directly from the linked source. Only relevance, IMO, is that 1. she knew his passwords at some point 2. just more evidence of poor investigation tactics.

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks for the info on the first delay tactic.

I didn't say she was checking his computer -- I said PF was monitoring his email accounts -- info provided by LE directly from the linked source. Only relevance, IMO, is that 1. she knew his passwords at some point 2. just more evidence of poor investigation tactics.


I'll agree with the tactics, but I'm not sure that she had the passwords. They could have been reset, after the fact.

Note that I said potential delaying tactic. The call clearly had the effect of focusing LE on Brush Valley. I cannot say if this was the intent.

[nittany90]

I'll agree with the tactics, but I'm not sure that she had the passwords. They could have been reset, after the fact.

Note that I said potential delaying tactic. The call clearly had the effect of focusing LE on Brush Valley. I cannot say if this was the intent.

If LE's goal was to monitor Gricar's email accounts, why would they change his passwords after the fact (he wouldn't be able to get access without knowing the new passwords, and therefore, the monitoring would be a useless endeavor). No, I don't think they changed the passwords. So, if PF's monitoring his email accounts, it stands to reason that she must have been privy to the original password(s).

I'm not convinced a delay tactic was his intent. If he wanted to detract attention away from Lewisburg (accepting eyewitness reports that he was indeed there on 04-15-05), then why not make the call from Bellefonte and don't mention you're on Rt. 192? Why make the call from Brush Valley, or anywhere on 192 for that matter (if you want to keep people away from point B, you don't give them hints that you're at point A headed toward point B. You lead them in a whole different direction. At the very least, if distraction or delay was the goal, you'd say you were headed to point C.

[J. J. in Phila]

If LE's goal was to monitor Gricar's email accounts, why would they change his passwords after the fact (he wouldn't be able to get access without knowing the new passwords, and therefore, the monitoring would be a useless endeavor). No, I don't think they changed the passwords. So, if PF's monitoring his email accounts, it stands to reason that she must have been privy to the original password(s).


I'm not sure that she had access to any of his passwords before 4/15/05. The police did have his daughter monitoring his bank accounts.


I'm not convinced a delay tactic was his intent. If he wanted to detract attention away from Lewisburg (accepting eyewitness reports that he was indeed there on 04-15-05), then why not make the call from Bellefonte and don't mention you're on Rt. 192? Why make the call from Brush Valley, or anywhere on 192 for that matter (if you want to keep people away from point B, you don't give them hints that you're at point A headed toward point B. You lead them in a whole different direction. At the very least, if distraction or delay was the goal, you'd say you were headed to point C.


Well, first, the call was in a rural area 20-40 miles from where the Mini was found.

Second, it was in a sparsely populated area, without cell coverage beyond a point. It gave LE a focus point, which turned out to wrong. It clearly had that effect, if not that intent. That is where LE spent most of 4/16 searching. They even went back after the car was found in Lewisburg.

Third, it gave LE a record they could verify with electronic records.

In all seriousness, if I wanted to make sure that the police would be start searching some place I wasn't, I'd do that.

[nittany90]

Christine - First, I just wanted to tell you that in my voracious reading and digesting over the weekend, I came across your sister's story and your personal connection to Ray Gricar. Bless your sister and your family! :blowkiss: And thank you, thank you for continuing to keep Ray's memory alive here. I don't know what I believe yet, but the one thing that has remained constant over the last 20 years is my belief that Ray was a good man. So, thank you!

Now -- some questions.

Anyone have info/link that Lara had just recently reconnected with RG prior to his disappearance? Confirm she is adopted?

Anyone have a info/link to the report allegedly made to PSP in Milton about a tan vehicle following a red Mini-Cooper on 80 on 04/15/05? Or, has this info ONLY been linked to the psychic?

[nittany90]

JJ
Your blog states that the bartender was the first Wilkes Barre eyewitness (saw RG in suit, talked about Cleveland Indians, etc). Then, you later say that the 2nd eyewitness to the same scenario was an out-of-town, off-duty cop, kinda just passing thru. You've also said that the 2nd witness coming forth made it more credible to you (since he was a cop AND that that now, there were 2 identical eyewitness accounts).

On another blog, you supported your position by posting that "LE went to the location and asked the bartender: The police officer either called BPD or PSP".

From this article in the Philadelphia Daily News (05/13/05) the following was snipped:

"But on April 22, a man in Wilkes-Barre - some two hours east of Bellefonte - called police and said that he had conversed with a man who appeared to be Gricar on April 18, some three days after the D.A. went missing.

After local cops interviewed the man, they found another witness from the same establishment who also ID'd Gricar. Both witnesses said they were 100 percent certain it was the missing D.A.

The thing about the sighting that struck investigators is that the witnesses said the man talked about the Cleveland Indians - and they had been likely unaware when they went to authorities that Gricar indeed was a lifelong Indians fan.

But the Wilkes-Barre witnesses also said the man had been wearing a suit, even though Gricar was wearing jeans when he went missing."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

I think it was the PO who first reported the sighting. (The first call came in on 4/22 (4 days after the alleged sighting). I think the bartender came second, after being "found" by LE after hearing the PO's original story. Does the order of witnesses (supported by the article) have any bearing on how much credibility to give the sightings?

[nittany90]

Are there 2 Judge Grines on the bench in Centre County? The one I saw in a photo CANNOT possibly be the same one who knew Gricar for 25 years....could it be his son?

[Nowisthetime]

Christine - First, I just wanted to tell you that in my voracious reading and digesting over the weekend, I came across your sister's story and your personal connection to Ray Gricar. Bless your sister and your family! :blowkiss: And thank you, thank you for continuing to keep Ray's memory alive here. I don't know what I believe yet, but the one thing that has remained constant over the last 20 years is my belief that Ray was a good man. So, thank you!

Now -- some questions.

Anyone have info/link that Lara had just recently reconnected with RG prior to his disappearance? Confirm she is adopted?

Anyone have a info/link to the report allegedly made to PSP in Milton about a tan vehicle following a red Mini-Cooper on 80 on 04/15/05? Or, has this info ONLY been linked to the psychic?

Bellefonte, (PRWEB) June 5, 2005 -- Police investigating the disappearance of Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar are scouting nearby Milton for possible locations that could match recent descriptions given by psychic detective Carla Baron.

Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said Baron's description of a tan or brown vehicle following a Mini Cooper like the one Gricar drove along Route 192 on April 15 - the day he vanished - meshes with earlier, unreleased witness reports to state police in Milton.

Baron also has told investigators that at some point during Gricar's drive, the opportunity presented itself and a move was made to get Gricar into the tailing tan car. Baron believes someone leaned into the passenger side window of the Mini Cooper while smoking a cigarette to coerce Gricar from his car.

State police reports of witness accounts also note a similar scene, Zaccagni said. They describe someone leaning in to talk to the driver before the car pulls away abruptly.

"The little things have come back to be verified," he said.
(snip)

[Nowisthetime]

From "The River's Edge".

(snip)
In 1978, he and Barbara adopted a newborn girl, Lara. When Barbara was offered a position at Penn State in 1985, Ray took the opportunity to take some time off, opting to become a stay-at-home dad. They moved into a house near State College, Pennsylvania. This brief respite from the dark side of human nature was short-lived. Eventually, the darkness found him.
(snip)

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it was the PO who first reported the sighting. (The first call came in on 4/22 (4 days after the alleged sighting). I think the bartender came second, after being "found" by LE after hearing the PO's original story. Does the order of witnesses (supported by the article) have any bearing on how much credibility to give the sightings?


That is correct, however, the first witness that was identified by profession was the bartender. That was reported in the Post Gazette.

The witness who first called the police was the police officer. After the police officer called, LE checked the location and found the bartender.

I'm not sure that he was too "disconnected." Lara had some type of accident in the early 2000's, skiing I think. He flew out to help take care of her. And yes, she is adopted. I got that straight from Tony.

Here is a link to the article. http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/30/the-rivers-edge-homicide-suicide-hoax-a-prosecutor-vanishes-and-the-clues-point-everywhere-and-nowhere-at-oncethe-rivers-edge

Be careful on that sight, it just set off my antivirus.

I've communicated one or twice with the author. Seems like a good guy.

[J. J. in Phila]

Just in case there is problem with the site, the article, with additions, is found in James Renner's The Serial Killer's Apprentice.

[nittany90]

Bellefonte, (PRWEB) June 5, 2005 -- Police investigating the disappearance of Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar are scouting nearby Milton for possible locations that could match recent descriptions given by psychic detective Carla Baron.

Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said Baron's description of a tan or brown vehicle following a Mini Cooper like the one Gricar drove along Route 192 on April 15 - the day he vanished - meshes with earlier, unreleased witness reports to state police in Milton.

Baron also has told investigators that at some point during Gricar's drive, the opportunity presented itself and a move was made to get Gricar into the tailing tan car. Baron believes someone leaned into the passenger side window of the Mini Cooper while smoking a cigarette to coerce Gricar from his car.

State police reports of witness accounts also note a similar scene, Zaccagni said. They describe someone leaning in to talk to the driver before the car pulls away abruptly.

"The little things have come back to be verified," he said.
(snip)

Thanks!

[nittany90]

Just in case there is problem with the site, the article, with additions, is found in James Renner's The Serial Killer's Apprentice.

Thanks -- my anti-malware didn't like that site either. Is it available online or do I have to buy the book?

[nittany90]

That is correct, however, the first witness that was identified by profession was the bartender. That was reported in the Post Gazette.

The witness who first called the police was the police officer. After the police officer called, LE checked the location and found the bartender.

I'm not sure that he was too "disconnected." Lara had some type of accident in the early 2000's, skiing I think. He flew out to help take care of her. And yes, she is adopted. I got that straight from Tony.

Here is a link to the article. http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/30/the-rivers-edge-homicide-suicide-hoax-a-prosecutor-vanishes-and-the-clues-point-everywhere-and-nowhere-at-oncethe-rivers-edge

Be careful on that sight, it just set off my antivirus.

I've communicated one or twice with the author. Seems like a good guy.

So, just to clarify, the order that LE talked to witnesses and got their similar accounts was police officer then bartender. Police officer on 4/22 and bartender (sometime after 4/22 but before 4/29)?

Don't mean to seem dense -- I'm just on "gricar overload". :yow:

Anyone have any links from published reports on the Lewisburg witnesses (not from SOS)? I'm having a really hard time finding official attribution. And, if I can't attribute it to a source, I can't put in in my eyewitness database.

And, am I correct that all eyewitness sightings after April 18, have been discounted/rejected/unsubstantiated by LE?

[Nowisthetime]

Gricar family, friends hold on to hope

By Pete Bosak
pbosak@centredaily.com

BELLEFONTE -- One year after former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar disappeared, the man who replaced him said it will take a bit of good fortune to determine what became of the man.

"It would take that lucky stroke or fortuitous lead," District Attorney Michael Madeira said at a news conference Friday morning in Bellefonte. "We would take a stroke of luck."

Gricar took the day off on April 15, 2005. That day, he called his live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, to tell her he was taking a drive on state Route 192 toward Lewisburg. He has been neither seen nor heard from since. His car was found a day later in a parking lot in Lewisburg.

(snip)
Authorities say the investigation into the disappearance -- a probe that has involved Bellefonte police, State College police, state police, the state attorney general's office, the FBI, the Secret Service and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department -- is no closer to determining what happened to Gricar than it was a year ago.

"What is important for people to know," Madeira said, "is that over time, as the leads grow cold, the interest of law enforcement, my interest, as well as the public's interest in this case will not."

Darrel Zaccagni, the Bellefonte officer who has been leading the investigation, admits he is frustrated. "The leads are getting far and few between," he said. "So where do we go?"

Police have pursued a plethora of reported Gricar sightings, all discounted.
(snip)

[Nowisthetime]

Reports of Gricar sightings in Wilkes-Barre also have not panned out. Zaccagni said the most recent sighting of Gricar comes out of Michigan, and like other leads, officers are following up, even though there is a strong likelihood it will turn out to be yet another red herring.

"We'll check it out," Zaccagni said.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/6/prweb247770.php

[J. J. in Phila]

So, just to clarify, the order that LE talked to witnesses and got their similar accounts was police officer then bartender. Police officer on 4/22 and bartender (sometime after 4/22 but before 4/29)?

Don't mean to seem dense -- I'm just on "gricar overload". :yow:

Anyone have any links from published reports on the Lewisburg witnesses (not from SOS)? I'm having a really hard time finding official attribution. And, if I can't attribute it to a source, I can't put in in my eyewitness database.

And, am I correct that all eyewitness sightings after April 18, have been discounted/rejected/unsubstantiated by LE?


There was one in Michigan that is a "maybe." He was "seen" with an elderly woman. Witness was a retired police sketch artist and I think his wife. I'm not thrilled about the conditions.

[J. J. in Phila]

Reports of Gricar sightings in Wilkes-Barre also have not panned out. Zaccagni said the most recent sighting of Gricar comes out of Michigan, and like other leads, officers are following up, even though there is a strong likelihood it will turn out to be yet another red herring.

"We'll check it out," Zaccagni said.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/6/prweb247770.php

Did it ever occur to you that "not panned out" could mean, "It doesn't tell us where he is currently?"

[Nowisthetime]

Gricar family, friends hold on to hope

By Pete Bosak
pbosak@centredaily.com

BELLEFONTE -- One year after former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar disappeared, the man who replaced him said it will take a bit of good fortune to determine what became of the man.

"It would take that lucky stroke or fortuitous lead," District Attorney Michael Madeira said at a news conference Friday morning in Bellefonte. "We would take a stroke of luck."

Gricar took the day off on April 15, 2005. That day, he called his live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, to tell her he was taking a drive on state Route 192 toward Lewisburg. He has been neither seen nor heard from since. His car was found a day later in a parking lot in Lewisburg.

"I've never given up hope," Fornicola, who still works in the district attorney's office, said at the news conference. "It helps me go on. I have to pull myself together because I have to go on."

Authorities say the investigation into the disappearance -- a probe that has involved Bellefonte police, State College police, state police, the state attorney general's office, the FBI, the Secret Service and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department -- is no closer to determining what happened to Gricar than it was a year ago.

"What is important for people to know," Madeira said, "is that over time, as the leads grow cold, the interest of law enforcement, my interest, as well as the public's interest in this case will not."

Darrel Zaccagni, the Bellefonte officer who has been leading the investigation, admits he is frustrated. "The leads are getting far and few between," he said. "So where do we go?"

Police have pursued a plethora of reported Gricar sightings, all discounted.

(snip)

[J. J. in Phila]

In "The River's Edge," Zaccagni said that the police can "definitely" put him Gricar in Lewisburg on Saturday, 4/16/05.

Sorry, but his statement puts it beyond that date.

[Nowisthetime]

The following article appeared in the CDT 2 years after RG's disappearance. To my knowledge, there was never a retraction for inaccuracies to this article.

Two years after Gricar vanished, police no closer to answers

Two years ago today, former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar vanished without a trace from an antiques mall in Lewisburg, his red and white Mini Cooper found abandoned the next day by police.

Investigators, while hoping they will get the break they need to determine what happened to the career prosecutor, concede the case has officially gone cold.

"I would say this is a cold case," said Centre County District Attorney Michael Madeira, who inherited the investigation into his predecessor's disappearance when he took office in January 2006, almost nine months after Gricar vanished.

"The family continues to hope, although hope may be waning," Madeira said. "Everybody hopes that there is some opportunity for a resolution. But that hope becomes less and less as time goes by."

Tony Gricar, spokesman for the family, said he now thinks it may never be known what became of his uncle on April 15, 2005.

"Short of a stroke of luck at this point, I don't think so," Tony Gricar said.

The day he vanished, a Friday, Ray Gricar telephoned his live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, to tell her he was taking the day off and going for a drive on state Route 192 toward Lewisburg.

There have been no credible sightings of him since that day.

(snip)
Still, Tony Gricar said, he and Lara are being realistic.

"Neither one of us believe he is still alive," Tony Gricar said.

Centre Daily News

Renner is an author, attempting to sell his books. His article "The River's Edge" was dissed as having numerous inaccuracies ref. the disappearance of Ray Gricar. He also wrote a book in 2006 ref. the killing of Amy Mehaljevic (unsolved murder in OH); the local LE was critical of the information contained in that book (Nov. 2006 Archived), "Bay Village Issued Press Release."

[J. J. in Phila]

Actually, BP had not read the Renner piece (at least in depth). He commented on it in his blog after the 2006 article. He was surprised how much Zaccagni told Renner.

[Nowisthetime]

Yep, that DZ was a "wealth" of information . . .

[J. J. in Phila]

Yep, that DZ was a "wealth" of information . . .

Actually, he didn't say a lot, which is what makes the comment so telling.

[Nowisthetime]

The Missing Person flyer, dated 2007, from BPD:

There have been “sightings" of Ray over the past two years (unconfirmed).

The Missing Person flyer from the FBI does not list sightings at all.

[J. J. in Phila]

The Missing Person flyer, dated 2007, from BPD:

There have been “sightings" of Ray over the past two years (unconfirmed).

The Missing Person flyer from the FBI does not list sightings at all.

Yet the officer investigating the case states that he was "definitely" in Lewisburg on 4/16/05, quoted here: http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13/...he-rivers-edge

I believe the officer over a flyer.

[Nowisthetime]

One would think most people would believe the information contained on an official FBI flyer. The same goes for an official flyer from any law enforcement agency. As noted above, the official Gricar FBI Missing Person flyer does not mention any sightings; the official Gricar BPD Missing Person flyer, taken from the FBI flyer, lists sightings (unconfirmed).

I'm not sure the words of any particular officer during an interview with a writer/author could be believed as much as an official FBI or LE flyer; one couldn't be certain whether they were the officer's words or those of the writer/author.

As of 2007, the official Gricar BPD Missing Person flyers lists "sightings" (unconfirmed), which far surpasses the writing of Renner.

[J. J. in Phila]

One would think most people would believe the information contained on an official FBI flyer. The same goes for an official flyer from any law enforcement agency. As noted above, the official Gricar FBI Missing Person flyer does not mention any sightings; the official Gricar BPD Missing Person flyer, taken from the FBI flyer, lists sightings (unconfirmed).

I'm not sure the words of any particular officer during an interview with a writer/author could be believed as much as an official FBI or LE flyer; one couldn't be certain whether they were the officer's words or those of the writer/author.

As of 2007, the official Gricar BPD Missing Person flyers lists "sightings" (unconfirmed), which far surpasses the writing of Renner.

But not the the person doing the actual investigation, who was quoted. The FBI, while providing technical support, wasn't the agency interviewing the witnesses. Sorry, try again.

You can try to spin it, but there were at least eight witnesses that saw Mr. Gricar in and around Lewisburg on 4/15/05, alone. Six of those, at least, saw him with the Mini.

[nittany90]

Actually, I've noticed a couple of curious things from the FBI and BPD official "missing" flyers. The date and location. For arguments sake, it could be argued that "Bellefonte PA" could either be his hometown, or his last known location. I'm taking the position that a "reasonable person" would assume it means his last known location, as is evidenced by the wording on other flyers listed on the FBI Missing website (take a look at Lori Ann Boffman's --very similar. Lists her missing from the county her car was found, not her county of residence). Why didn't they follow the same protocol for Ray?

Can we all agree that, none of those witnesses, or anyone it seems for that matter, saw Ray Gricar in his car at the SOS parking lot, right? And none of the sightings were corroborated by videotape evidence, right?

So, it could be argued that the last true, corroborated, hard piece of evidence we have of Ray Gricar definitely being alive, is him leaving the Courthhouse on Thursday night. After that, it's purely speculative, circumstantial evidence (PF's assertions of seeing and talking to him the morning of April 15, 2005 and her subsequent passage of a LD test, cellphone record confirmation that a call was made on his cellphone on 192 at 11:12 am to the DA's office, several eyewitness reports putting him in Lewisburg on April 15-16, 2005.)

And, IF the above assumption is true, why do LE and FBI both take the huge leap (or make a huge blunder) of listing his date of disappearance as April 15, 2005 from Bellefonte, PA?

My guess: #1 - LE knows more than they're telling (hard evidence) or, #2 -they're putting more stock in the circumstantial evidence of him being alive and well on April 15, 2005 and less stock on him going missing from State College. Otherwise, I would think then the date of disappearance on LE's official flyers would be a day earlier AND it would say from Lewisburg, or #3 - Both, or #4 - they didn't put much thought behind the facts when they created the missing flyer.

My guess is #3. But, after reading all of the LE missteps in this case, I could vote for #5 - ALL OF THE ABOVE.

[nittany90]

Can someone provide me an official link that states the date the home desktop computer was purchased???

TIA

[J. J. in Phila]

Can we all agree that, none of those witnesses, or anyone it seems for that matter, saw Ray Gricar in his car at the SOS parking lot, right? And none of the sightings were corroborated by videotape evidence, right?


At least two witnesses saw Mr. Gricar moving the car back and forth in the SoS parking lot between 5:30 PM and 6:30 PM on 4/15/05.

Mr. Gricar's scent was detected in that parking lot.

I do not have a specific date on the computer purchase, only around January 1.

[nittany90]

Just came across this today. Don't know that the date of the computer searches has hit the general public yet.

Chief Weaver told a reporter from WTAJ on April 15, 2009 that "a month before his disappearance" Gricar searched "how to fry a hard drive" and "water damage to computer" on his personal computer. Weaver also stated that a hard drive-erasing box was found opened, and he thinks Gricar used it to erase data on his laptop.

Besides the bombshell info pinpointing the actual date of the internet searches to "one month before his disappearance" -- this one interview with BPD has raised a few very important questions in my mind:

- If Weaver's right, and Gricar purchased and used the data-erasing software on his laptop, why would he need to do searches for the same info only a month before his disappearance?
- Is it possible that someone (other than Gricar) performed the searches on the home computer? Can LE prove that it was Gricar that performed the searches? How?
- Why does it, at least on the surface, appear that LE wants the public to believe that Gricar did the searches??
- Is the timing of these “new revelations” politically motivated? Does someone have an interest in making Gricar’s disappearance look planned and voluntary? To what end?
- Why did LE/DA’s office sit on this information for over 2 ½ years?
- Is there a receipt for "the box"?
- What is the proof that "the box" belonged to or was purchased by RG?
- -If LE didn't recover "the box" at the time the laptop was supposedly discovered missing, when did they find it? Where?
- right now there seems to be a concerted effort to link the software and the searches in the minds of the public (even though, they are truly two separate issues). And that just makes the reporter in me, go hmmmm....:waitasec:

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

[J. J. in Phila]

Besides the bombshell info pinpointing the actual date of the internet searches to "one month before his disappearance" -- this one interview with BPD has raised a few very important questions in my mind:

- If Weaver's right, and Gricar purchased and used the data-erasing software on his laptop, why would he need to do searches for the same info only a month before his disappearance?


Even looking at what was on the Internet at the time, most people say to destroy the drive. It would be possible to recover information from the drive even if data-erasing software is used; it would usually take a forensics recovery firm (like Kroll).


- Is it possible that someone (other than Gricar) performed the searches on the home computer? Can LE prove that it was Gricar that performed the searches? How?
- Why does it, at least on the surface, appear that LE wants the public to believe that Gricar did the searches??


From what MR said, no. I'd guess they have determined it was RFG.


- Is the timing of these “new revelations” politically motivated? Does someone have an interest in making Gricar’s disappearance look planned and voluntary? To what end?
- Why did LE/DA’s office sit on this information for over 2 ½ years?


If RFG was determined to have acted voluntarily, it is not a matter for LE or the DA's Office. The DA solving a high profile mystery doesn't hurt. I just that they will get a solution and not a "solution."


- Is there a receipt for "the box"?
- What is the proof that "the box" belonged to or was purchased by RG?
- -If LE didn't recover "the box" at the time the laptop was supposedly discovered missing, when did they find it? Where?
- right now there seems to be a concerted effort to link the software and the searches in the minds of the public (even though, they are truly two separate issues). And that just makes the reporter in me, go hmmmm....:waitasec:

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

That RFG was interested in erasing a drive was actually reported in the late summer of 2008. This is being hyped a bit.

[nittany90]

Even looking at what was on the Internet at the time, most people say to destroy the drive. It would be possible to recover information from the drive even if data-erasing software is used; it would usually take a forensics recovery firm (like Kroll).



From what MR said, no. I'd guess they have determined it was RFG.



If RFG was determined to have acted voluntarily, it is not a matter for LE or the DA's Office. The DA solving a high profile mystery doesn't hurt. I just that they will get a solution and not a "solution."



That RFG was interested in erasing a drive was actually reported in the late summer of 2008. This is being hyped a bit.

I'd really like to hear from a computer forensics investigator. I, in no way, consider myself an expert in computer forensics, but I am a pretty good observer. :rolleyes: In recent cases involving computer evidence, I have never heard an expert witness say that "PERSON A" did the computer search -- they only go so far as to say that the search originated from "PERSON A's computer/user ID". This doesn't help much if its a shared computer.

I'll have to research PA case statute, but I'm pretty sure that if the disappearance was "staged" and local/state/federal funds wasted in a fradulent investigation, the individual can be charged (if found). He's had plenty of time in the last four years to contact BPD and tell them, "hey, I'm safe, I just wanted a new life" -- I can guess since the investigation is ongoing, he hasn't done that. I don't think anyone can argue with the facts of the case (and that no resolution has been reached) that if indeed Gricar walked away, he staged his disappearance to at least look like a suicide.

LE releasing the facts that Gricar was interested in erasing a drive and then releasing that they have proof he actually erased it, is 2 completely different facts! Regardless of how long ago the information was reported, have the questions been answered? Are they relevant to the investigation? Not to mention that I have a problem with LE and the officials from the DA's office releasing conflicting information to the public (fingerprint evidence, eyewitness credibility, box, no box, etc. Sometimes I wonder if they even WANT this case solved. And if they don't, who benefits from that failure???

Just to be clear, I don't personally have a stake in whether or not the case is solved. Nor do I have to be proven right on whatever scenario I'm leaning toward. I'm just here evaluating the known evidence, asking the unasked questions, thinking of possible angles that might have been missed, so that those who do have a stake, can finally have some comfort in closure.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'd really like to hear from a computer forensics investigator. I, in no way, consider myself an expert in computer forensics, but I am a pretty good observer. :rolleyes: In recent cases involving computer evidence, I have never heard an expert witness say that "PERSON A" did the computer search -- they only go so far as to say that the search originated from "PERSON A's computer/user ID". This doesn't help much if its a shared computer.


What if the laptop was erased first. completely so the operating system would have to be reloaded.


I'll have to research PA case statute, but I'm pretty sure that if the disappearance was "staged" and local/state/federal funds wasted in a fradulent investigation, the individual can be charged (if found). He's had plenty of time in the last four years to contact BPD and tell them, "hey, I'm safe, I just wanted a new life" -- I can guess since the investigation is ongoing, he hasn't done that. I don't think anyone can argue with the facts of the case (and that no resolution has been reached) that if indeed Gricar walked away, he staged his disappearance to at least look like a suicide.


This has been discussed in Bosak's old blog. It is not criminal, though a civil suit could be filed, until the statute of limitation expires. I'm not sure that RFG, if he walked, made it look like suicide. We all, including me, just jumped to that conclusion.


LE releasing the facts that Gricar was interested in erasing a drive and then releasing that they have proof he actually erased it, is 2 completely different facts! Regardless of how long ago the information was reported, have the questions been answered? Are they relevant to the investigation? Not to mention that I have a problem with LE and the officials from the DA's office releasing conflicting information to the public (fingerprint evidence, eyewitness credibility, box, no box, etc. Sometimes I wonder if they even WANT this case solved. And if they don't, who benefits from that failure???

Just to be clear, I don't personally have a stake in whether or not the case is solved. Nor do I have to be proven right on whatever scenario I'm leaning toward. I'm just here evaluating the known evidence, asking the unasked questions, thinking of possible angles that might have been missed, so that those who do have a stake, can finally have some comfort in closure.

Well, they say they have it, and MR is noted for being meticulous, unlike his predecessor. I'll reserve judgment before I pronounce it impossible.

I don't have a stake in proving one or another scenario either. I don't have any scenario above 50%.

[Nowisthetime]

Just came across this today. Don't know that the date of the computer searches has hit the general public yet.

Chief Weaver told a reporter from WTAJ on April 15, 2009 that "a month before his disappearance" Gricar searched "how to fry a hard drive" and "water damage to computer" on his personal computer. Weaver also stated that a hard drive-erasing box was found opened, and he thinks Gricar used it to erase data on his laptop.

Besides the bombshell info pinpointing the actual date of the internet searches to "one month before his disappearance" -- this one interview with BPD has raised a few very important questions in my mind:

- If Weaver's right, and Gricar purchased and used the data-erasing software on his laptop, why would he need to do searches for the same info only a month before his disappearance?
Exactly. That's the question on the minds of a lot of people.

-Is it possible that someone (other than Gricar) performed the searches on the home computer? Can LE prove that it was Gricar that performed the searches? How?
I don't know who anyone can prove it was Gricar to performed the searches. I'm not a computer expert by any means, but I don't see how it's possible, & neither do other people believe it's possible.

-Why does it, at least on the surface, appear that LE wants the public to believe that Gricar did the searches??
It's easier? The inv. appears to have been screwed up since the beginning: neighbors, best friends, & co-workers not interviewed; info. on the tan car/MW not released for an entire year; no sketch artist for the "witness" who supposedly "saw" the MW; removing the Mini before the dogs arrived on the SOS lot; seeing no holes in walls or blood as the reason for not searching the house; not fingerprinting the laptop case, etc.

-Is the timing of these “new revelations” politically motivated? Does someone have an interest in making Gricar’s disappearance look planned and voluntary? To what end?
Who know, but it's awfully strange that the "computer search" info. just hit the press when it "supposedly" was known 2 yrs. ago.

-Why did LE/DA’s office sit on this information for over 2 ½ years?
-Is there a receipt for "the box"?
-What is the proof that "the box" belonged to or was purchased by RG?
-If LE didn't recover "the box" at the time the laptop was supposedly discovered missing, when did they find it? Where?
-right now there seems to be a concerted effort to link the software and the searches in the minds of the public (even though, they are truly two separate issues). And that just makes the reporter in me, go hmmmm....:waitasec:
I don't know the answers to your questions. I am/never have been a reporter, but I have the same reaction, and so do others! Something smells bad!
http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

Your questions are the same questions being asked by others.

[nittany90]

Tell me more about LE moving the mini before the dogs arrived at the SOS parking lot. I hadn't come across that before. If that's true, no wonder the dogs didn't alert "beyond the car".

[J. J. in Phila]

Tell me more about LE moving the mini before the dogs arrived at the SOS parking lot. I hadn't come across that before. If that's true, no wonder the dogs didn't alert "beyond the car".

Both the witnesses (3-4) that saw RFG across from the Packwood Museum in the early afternoon, and those who saw him in the SoS lot (at least 2), saw him moving the Mini back and forth. There may not be anything nefarious in that.

[nittany90]

Both the witnesses (3-4) that saw RFG across from the Packwood Museum in the early afternoon, and those who saw him in the SoS lot (at least 2), saw him moving the Mini back and forth. There may not be anything nefarious in that.

LOL, JJ. I wanted to know more about LE removing the mini before the dogs arriving at the SOS parking lot, not about witnesses reporting that Gricar moved the mini.

But, while you're here, can u give me a cite on Judge Grine being the witness than corroborated Carolyn Fenton's sighting??

[nittany90]

.....and how you know the witness who saw Gricar at Raystown Lake was a doctor.....

TIA!

[Nowisthetime]

Tell me more about LE moving the mini before the dogs arrived at the SOS parking lot. I hadn't come across that before. If that's true, no wonder the dogs didn't alert "beyond the car".

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:DckCwS5meLYJ:www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385696/posts+ray+gricar+mini+cooper+milton&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

The Mini was found on the SoS lot on 04/16, approx. 6:30 PM.
It was then loaded onto a lowboy trailer & moved from the SoS lot to PSP headquarters for examination.
The dogs didn't arrive until 04/17, after the Mini had been removed.

(More will follow.)

[Nowisthetime]

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:DckCwS5meLYJ:www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385696/posts+ray+gricar+mini+cooper+milton&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

The Mini was found on the SoS lot on 04/16, approx. 6:30 PM.
It was then loaded onto a lowboy trailer & moved from the SoS lot to PSP headquarters for examination.
The dogs didn't arrive until 04/17, after the Mini had been removed.

(More will follow.)

Times Leader/AP Wire, Mark Scolforo
Sunday, 04/17/05

BELLEFONTE, Pa. - Police on Saturday found the car of Centre County's top prosecutor but no sign of the missing man, who failed to return home from a drive the day before, authorities said.

Bellefonte Police Chief Duane Dixon said state police found the red and white Mini Cooper belonging to District Attorney Ray F. Gricar, 59, of Bellefonte, at about 6:30 p.m. in a dirt parking lot on the outskirts of Lewisburg in Union County.
(snip)

Dixon said he planned to head to Lewisburg on Sunday to look at a surveillance tape from the store and talk to the owner. A police dog might be brought to the parking lot to try to pick up a scent, he said.

[txsleuth]

also this from FreeRepublic comments

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1385294/posts

To: TheOtherOne
I'd not seen this story til this morning, but since I'm a local I decided to get a couple pics for anyone interested.

(No one answered the phone at the local paper so a bit of guesswork was involved and if you're not satisfied I'll gladly refund your entire viewing fee)

Had to go to Walmart last night and on the route through Lewisburg (along Water St.) that avoids Saturday night town traffic I saw 5-6 cops standing outside their cars across from what the clueless AP writer called an 'antique store' on the 'outskirts' of town.
The LEO-mobiles I saw consisted of a couple staties, a couple locals, and an unmarked or two. The guys were standing around in the 'dirt lot' (actually gravel-covered) talking and it struck me at the time as a huddle prior to swooping somewhere.

The location is actually on the east end of L'burg, next to the river, and the 'store' is a large building formerly owned by Pennsylvania House Furniture, currently called the 'Street of Shops' and home to around 40 craft/antique vendors frequented mainly by tourists/folks visiting Bucknell kids/etc.

The first pic is the lot where all the cops were and where the car is said to have been found (on the left, with the 'store' across the street).

On the way back home after snapping that one, the thought occurred that if the car had been taken anywhere it'd likely be to the local State Police barracks, which is about a 1/2mi from my house, and voila, one red MiniCooper.

So, the car was taken to the Barracks Saturday night per this local.

The dogs were brought in to search the lot on Sunday.

[J. J. in Phila]

LOL, JJ. I wanted to know more about LE removing the mini before the dogs arriving at the SOS parking lot, not about witnesses reporting that Gricar moved the mini.


Sometime Saturday evening. The dogs were brought in around noon Sunday.


But, while you're here, can u give me a cite on Judge Grine being the witness than corroborated Carolyn Fenton's sighting??

I think a link is in the comments for the blog on it. It was reported in the Q & A and in PB's old blog. I also checked with PB.

Note Grine stated that he saw RFG in a car not the Mini on either 4/14 or 4/15. It is not absolute corroboration.

Edit: Here is the link http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:neFfHWMEimMJ:community.centredaily. com/%3Fq%3Dnode/5949+%22Just+Gricar%22+Grine&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[J. J. in Phila]

The "doctor" was reported in PB's blog, though there was an earlier account that RFG was seen at Lake Raystown.

[nittany90]

A big thank you to everyone who posted the cites.

[nittany90]

The "doctor" was reported in PB's blog, though there was an earlier account that RFG was seen at Lake Raystown.

Yes. I'd already tracked down the sighting at Raystown Lake -- I just couldn't find any official source regarding the "doctor".

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes. I'd already tracked down the sighting at Raystown Lake -- I just couldn't find any official source regarding the "doctor".

I'd discussed that with him before disclosure and that was the only thing he'd heard.

A "doctor" could refer to a Ph D., which is fairly common in the area, so I'm not sure it was a physician. That's my guess, not PB's.

I'll say this, PB knew this case cold and had great contacts.

[nittany90]

I'd discussed that with him before disclosure and that was the only thing he'd heard.

A "doctor" could refer to a Ph D., which is fairly common in the area, so I'm not sure it was a physician. That's my guess, not PB's.

I'll say this, PB knew this case cold and had great contacts.

I'm in no way discounting or downplaying Bosak's knowledge or sources, (some of the best, most in-depth articles were by his hand) but did the identity of the witness show up in any published articles, officially attributed to LE? Call me a skeptic. Just because it shows up in a blog, does not make it so. That said, I also understand that sometime, you have your sources "off record" and this may be one of those cases.

I have a source "off record" who says FBI is more involved than the public is aware of.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm in no way discounting or downplaying Bosak's knowledge or sources, (some of the best, most in-depth articles were by his hand) but did the identity of the witness show up in any published articles, officially attributed to LE? Call me a skeptic. Just because it shows up in a blog, does not make it so. That said, I also understand that sometime, you have your sources "off record" and this may be one of those cases.

I have a source "off record" who says FBI is more involved than the public is aware of.

Nothing published outside of the blog, but I know his source.

The FBI has been involved, but so far as I've heard, they were not interrogating or evaluating the PA witnesses. I could see where they might have greater involvement, though I have not heard of any.

[nittany90]

Nothing published outside of the blog, but I know his source.

The FBI has been involved, but so far as I've heard, they were not interrogating or evaluating the PA witnesses. I could see where they might have greater involvement, though I have not heard of any.

Sorry. I didn't mean to connect FBI involvement directly to the PA witnesses (or any witness, for that matter) - simply to the investigation itself.

[J. J. in Phila]

Sorry. I didn't mean to connect FBI involvement directly to the PA witnesses (or any witness, for that matter) - simply to the investigation itself.

The question regarding the witnesses has been raised elsewhere. Even early on, the FBI was involved in the monitoring of some accounts.

[nittany90]

also this from FreeRepublic comments

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1385294/posts

To: TheOtherOne
I'd not seen this story til this morning, but since I'm a local I decided to get a couple pics for anyone interested.

(No one answered the phone at the local paper so a bit of guesswork was involved and if you're not satisfied I'll gladly refund your entire viewing fee)

Had to go to Walmart last night and on the route through Lewisburg (along Water St.) that avoids Saturday night town traffic I saw 5-6 cops standing outside their cars across from what the clueless AP writer called an 'antique store' on the 'outskirts' of town.
The LEO-mobiles I saw consisted of a couple staties, a couple locals, and an unmarked or two. The guys were standing around in the 'dirt lot' (actually gravel-covered) talking and it struck me at the time as a huddle prior to swooping somewhere.

The location is actually on the east end of L'burg, next to the river, and the 'store' is a large building formerly owned by Pennsylvania House Furniture, currently called the 'Street of Shops' and home to around 40 craft/antique vendors frequented mainly by tourists/folks visiting Bucknell kids/etc.

The first pic is the lot where all the cops were and where the car is said to have been found (on the left, with the 'store' across the street).

On the way back home after snapping that one, the thought occurred that if the car had been taken anywhere it'd likely be to the local State Police barracks, which is about a 1/2mi from my house, and voila, one red MiniCooper.

So, the car was taken to the Barracks Saturday night per this local.

The dogs were brought in to search the lot on Sunday.

P'gal --
I'd love to see the photos the local took. They're not available on the link anymore.

[nittany90]

I posted these questions originally on another board, but duplicating my post here for more insight.

Does anyone know what medical condition Steve Sloane suffered from, for which he was on medical leave, during the time of Gricar's disappearance?

And what do we know about his friend, Ed Walker?

Links, please.

And, does anyone know if anything significant came to light during the investigation from December, 2005 to March, 2006 to make Lara believe Gricar was not coming back? Enough to petition the PA Supreme Court, asking that they de-activate his PA license? Only a few months after working to have it re-instated (December, 2005) after it was automatically de-activated in November for non-payment in July, 2005? Something so significant to make her actively seek the de-activation rather than simply allowing it to automatically de-activate again if she failed to pay the $175 renewal fee by July 1, 2006 (just a few months later)? Wasn't it still being reported in March, that LG still believed her father was alive?

Or was it something so simple, that since he hadn't been around to earn his 12 hours of continuing education over the last year, that she thought she should be proactive and cancel his bar license? Doesn't seem the rational action of someone who even held onto the slightest hope that her father was still alive, and coming back.

And if not, what happened between December, 2005 to March, 2006, to change her mind that Gricar wasn't coming back?

Is it significant or irrelevant to the investigation?

[J. J. in Phila]

You asked so nice, I'll say it twice. :)

I don't have a link, but TG mentioned a car accident in regard to the 2005 injury.

For EW, you might want to check the alumni directory.

It involved the continuing education requirement. http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread....hreadid=737159

I might suggest you read the quote from their attorney in full.

[Nowisthetime]

Have any of the posters or lurkers to this board ever seen a link to this:

"Second, by all accounts, there were people in the home before RFG was reported missing, for hours."

If so, would you please post the link. Thanks.

[J. J. in Phila]

Have any of the posters or lurkers to this board ever seen a link to this:

"Second, by all accounts, there were people in the home before RFG was reported missing, for hours."

If so, would you please post the link. Thanks.

PEF and the police taking the report. Remember them?

[txsleuth]

Zaccagni thought RG was just on a night out....

Police didn't come to the home until Saturday.

[J. J. in Phila]

Zaccagni thought RG was just on a night out....

Police didn't come to the home until Saturday.

They took the report after the call. Remember?

[txsleuth]

Police didn't go to the home until Saturday.

[J. J. in Phila]

Police didn't go to the home until Saturday.

I am not sure of that. LE got the call sometime after 11:00 PM on 4/15. They may have gone to the house to take a report.

[txsleuth]

The Glasgow family has teamed with Let's Bring them Home and is offering a $100,000 reward in this unsolved case. This case is extremely similar to the case of missing DA Ray Gricar of Centre County, PA IMO. His car was found abandoned some distance from his home too...and that's where the investigation centered.

http://findjohnglasgow.com/news.shtml

Like Gricar, Glasgow went missing in the same clothing he was wearing the night before. He didn't do his usual routine the morning he disappeared...didn't shower, didn't make coffee, etc. And like Gricar, his vehicle was found abandoned with his cellphone some distance away.

[txsleuth]

J Karen Arnold (who is running for District Atty)'s message to Democrats...well worth the read

http://arnoldforda.org/8.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Here are actual election results: http://tiny.cc/1Frro

[dreamweaver]

Here are actual election results: http://tiny.cc/1Frro
===============
and what are the actual election results?

[J. J. in Phila]

===============
and what are the actual election results?

Stacey Parks Miller won with more tha 57% of the vote; J. Karen Arnold had less than 20% of the vote.

[J. J. in Phila]

Another missing person in Lewisburg. Rev. Jose "Joe" Rosa, 52, a Mennonite pastor. He last seen about a half mile from his residence; both locations are within a two mile radius of the Lewisburg sightings of Ray Gricar.

http://www.dailyitem.com/0100_news/local_story_144231525.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Brief update: The Rosa disappearance does not appear to be related to the Gricar disappearance.

[pittsburghgirl]

Brief update: The Rosa disappearance does not appear to be related to the Gricar disappearance.

Do you have a source for this update?

[J. J. in Phila]

A complaint had been filed against him on the same day that he disappeared.

http://www.standard-journal.com/articles/2009/05/27/news/doc4a1d5e58e694d278014735.txt

An editorial about it:

http://www.dailyitem.com/0110_editorials/local_story_148231534.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Pastor Rosa has now been charged criminally, which provides a very strong motive for him not being there.

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/state/pennsylvania/20090610_ap_missingpapastorchargedwithindecentassa ult.html

[J. J. in Phila]

There is an excellent blog on the Sporadic Comments blog on the Gricar case. I did not write it. It is a guest blog by a blogger called Slamdunk. I recommend it, especially if you don't like my blogging style.

It can be found here: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/

[J. J. in Phila]

For anyone interested, I am doing a series of indexes of blog entries that I've done on the Gricar case, including discussions of theories, suggestions for things to start the investigation, and a summary of the evidence. They are cross linked. You can find the blog here, under the title Sporadic Comments on the Gricar Case: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/

I have attempted to be thorough and, personally, I think that foul play and walkaway are by far the two most likely possibilities.

[If this link violates policy, please delete it. You have my apologies in advance.]

[J. J. in Phila]

For some unknown reason, "Sporadic Comments on the Gricar Case" is down.

I received a message from TXSlueth last night indicating that one of her comments was deleted. An approved comment from "TXslueth" and two from "Erasernut," along with two of my responses were lost (a third post from Erasernut was off topic and not approved). As indicated "TXslueth" contacted me and was invited to re-post.

I noticed that both the blog titles would not appear; my photo was also missing.

I have e-mailed the editor and technical support person at the CDT earlier on 9/1/09. I have had no explanation, but it could be a technical problem. I know that, as of this morning, at least some people could read it.

I indicated that I would be doing this series, titled "The Investigation," and would cover both the conduct of the police and the District Attorney, in late July of 2009. What I had planned to write about was not unknown.

To date, I have had no complaints from the editor. I have not received any "suggestion" from him not to write about any topic. Had I had any complaints from the editor, I would have been more than willing to either pull a particular entry or reword things. (I write a lot in real live and do deal with editors. I do get re-written and am use to it.)

At the time it went down, it was the highest rated blog on the CDT site; I am unaware of any complaints.

While I can read the blog, if you go to it you will see: "This community member's page is currently being reviewed by the editors." I asked for a review and I don't know if this is it or not.

In short, I don't know what happened either. Please, before we jump to any conclusions, let's wait until we see what happened.

[J. J. in Phila]

The blog is back up and the cause appears to have been a technical problem.

As I have indicated, I have had no complaints from the editor and would be happy to let him review any entry or listen, at least, to any changes he'd suggest. He has made no request to do either to date.

I really think that, if you missed my blog, you should say thank you to the Centre Daily Times.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here are some photos of the Lewisburg site:

http://picasaweb.google.com/LookingforRay

[J. J. in Phila]

Michael T. Madeira was decisively defeated in his bid for reelection as Centre County District Attorney by Stacy Parks Miller.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1608060.html

Madeira's handling of the Gricar case was an issue.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm very happy to report that SPM has mentioned renewed emphasis on the RFG case.

http://www.centredaily.com/116/story/1610279.html?storylink=omni_popular

I have some reason to believe it is more than lip service.

[J. J. in Phila]

For anyone following the investigation aspect of the case, the only two developments were that PEF was investigated more thoroughly than previously reported and McKnight and Buehner were more involved in the early investigation (i.e. April-May, 2005).

[Patience]

Here is the FBI's page on The Ray Gricar case. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family during the holidays and always.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/gricar_rf.htm


THE DETAILS

For almost twenty years, Ray Frank Gricar has served as the District Attorney for Center County, Pennsylvania. On the morning of April 15, 2005, he called his girlfriend and told her that he was going to go for a drive in his red and white Mini Cooper automobile along state Route 192 in Penns Valley, Pennsylvania. He was reported missing when he did not return. The car was located in a parking lot in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, near the Susquehanna River, on April 16, 2005; however, Gricar has not been located.
REMARKS

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray. He was last seen wearing a blue fleece jacket, jeans, and tennis shoes. He has ties to Ohio and California.

Individuals with information concerning this case should take no action themselves, but instead immediately contact the nearest FBI Office (http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) or local law enforcement agency. For any possible sighting outside the United States, contact the nearest United States Embassy or Consulate (http://www.fbi.gov/contact/legat/legat.htm).


| Philadelphia Field Office (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fo/phwanted.htm) | Kidnapping and Missing Persons Investigations (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/kidmiss.htm) |

[webrocket]

I don't think for one second this was foul play.

[dreamweaver]

Here is the FBI's page on The Ray Gricar case. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family during the holidays and always.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/gricar_rf.htm


THE DETAILS

For almost twenty years, Ray Frank Gricar has served as the District Attorney for Center County, Pennsylvania. On the morning of April 15, 2005, he called his girlfriend and told her that he was going to go for a drive in his red and white Mini Cooper automobile along state Route 192 in Penns Valley, Pennsylvania. He was reported missing when he did not return. The car was located in a parking lot in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, near the Susquehanna River, on April 16, 2005; however, Gricar has not been located.
REMARKS

Ray Gricar may also use the names Ray Lange or Ray Gray. He was last seen wearing a blue fleece jacket, jeans, and tennis shoes. He has ties to Ohio and California.

Individuals with information concerning this case should take no action themselves, but instead immediately contact the nearest FBI Office (http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm) or local law enforcement agency. For any possible sighting outside the United States, contact the nearest United States Embassy or Consulate (http://www.fbi.gov/contact/legat/legat.htm).


| Philadelphia Field Office (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fo/phwanted.htm) | Kidnapping and Missing Persons Investigations (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/kidmiss.htm) |

So the FBI thinks Ray Gricar staged his own disappearance.
He threw his own laptop into the river.
And just walked away.
Interesting. I wonder what else they know that we do not know.

[J. J. in Phila]

In case anyone is interested, there are now updated indexes on the Sporadic Comments blog on the CDT website.

http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/

[J. J. in Phila]

So the FBI thinks Ray Gricar staged his own disappearance.
He threw his own laptop into the river.
And just walked away.
Interesting. I wonder what else they know that we do not know.

The report was out for a few years, and the FBI, so far as I know, is not the investigating agency. It is the Bellefonte Police along with the Pennsylvania State Police.

The report doesn't give any indication of that they have formed an opinion.

Even knowing a few (and not much) things that have not been released, I'm aware of any additional evidence that points to walkaway. That said, there are red flags waiving that should be checked, that might point to murder, or walkaway.

[dreamweaver]

The report was out for a few years, and the FBI, so far as I know, is not the investigating agency. It is the Bellefonte Police along with the Pennsylvania State Police.

The report doesn't give any indication of that they have formed an opinion.

Even knowing a few (and not much) things that have not been released, I'm aware of any additional evidence that points to walkaway. That said, there are red flags waiving that should be checked, that might point to murder, or walkaway.

When I first read of his disappearance, I thought murder.
For some reason, ... this was my thinking at the time...
he went to meet someone. From his job or his personal live,
didn't matter to the theory....
Then that person killed him and dumped him in the river.

But, if he walked away.
Does anyone know if he took a large sum of money out before that day? If he cashed in a CD?
Was he mixed up in any kind of rumored scandal?

[J. J. in Phila]

When I first read of his disappearance, I thought murder.
For some reason, ... this was my thinking at the time...
he went to meet someone. From his job or his personal live,
didn't matter to the theory....
Then that person killed him and dumped him in the river.

But, if he walked away.
Does anyone know if he took a large sum of money out before that day? If he cashed in a CD?
Was he mixed up in any kind of rumored scandal?

Nothing immediate or in the 2.5 years prior to that; his divorce was settled at that point. Over that period, the was about $16,000 that LE could not account for, e.g. money taken in cash from a checking account. That works out to about $100-150 a week, which is not unusual.

The media reported that his assets were just over $100 K when he disappeared.

LE never checked prior to his divorce and since 1998, he had been making, in salary, more than $100 K per year. It is unlikely that he would have lost everything in that divorce (and he did have car prior to buying PEF the Mini). There is a red flag from that period.

I think his financial situation was outlined on the fourth thread posted here and there was a blog on it under the "Known Evidence."

In my year end blog, which should be up this afternoon, I'll be mentioning the odds I give on what happened. There has been no real change this year.

[luthersmama]

When I first read of his disappearance, I thought murder.
For some reason, ... this was my thinking at the time...
he went to meet someone. From his job or his personal live,
didn't matter to the theory....
Then that person killed him and dumped him in the river.

But, if he walked away.
Does anyone know if he took a large sum of money out before that day? If he cashed in a CD?
Was he mixed up in any kind of rumored scandal?

It has been awhile, but my recollection is that he had not withdrawn cash, BUT the amount of funds in his accounts was very small considering his salary and his lifestyle. It made me wonder whether he had been systematically stashing money off shore for years with the intention of walking away some day

[J. J. in Phila]

It has been awhile, but my recollection is that he had not withdrawn cash, BUT the amount of funds in his accounts was very small considering his salary and his lifestyle. It made me wonder whether he had been systematically stashing money off shore for years with the intention of walking away some day

Your recollection is quite correct. :) (Boy, do I love being able to say that to a poster on a message board.)

There was an asset liquidation with RFG's divorce in 2001-02; he sold the house, for example. That is common and totally expected.

There is, however, an element there that raised a red flag. Likewise, the titling of the Mini (which was an asset) has raised a red flag, even with those people who think it is murder.

Keep this in mind, this was not an amicable divorce, and one of the causes that I've heard about was money. I have heard other causes.

Something else, the second Ms. Gricar did work, though perhaps well less than full time, but the household income was higher than just RFG's public salary.

[J. J. in Phila]

There has been no political or personal scandal suggested; I have not heard about one.

The possibility of a lover has been raised. Mr. Buehner, the DA from Montour County, actually suggested, very early on (May-June 2005), to check motels for someone matching the description of the "Mystery Woman." Mr. Buehner thinks he was meeting someone in Lewisburg.

The occasional poster Tokuen, who is thought to be RFG's first wife, posted this comment:

http://pod01.prospero.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=kr-centretm&tid=1192

Gricar had apparently courted a few women over the years.

The impression that I've gotten was that he wasn't exactly a monk. It isn't exactly a scandal for an unmarried male to like women.

[webrocket]

This voluntary departure, which I believe it was, is far more complex than skimming some money in the years post-divorce.

[J. J. in Phila]

This voluntary departure, which I believe it was, is far more complex than skimming some money in the years post-divorce.

I'm far from sure that it was voluntary departure.

It would be very complex and it would involve those pre-divorce years. It would also take brilliance to pull it off so successfully.

[J. J. in Phila]

As of today, I'd give the odds on what explains the disappearance of Mr. Gricar as follows:

Walkaway

48%

Foul Play

42%

Suicide

9%

Something Else

1%

In short, I don't have one theory that I would say is likely.

[luthersmama]

I have also expressed the thought before that Ray may have had a really big skeleton in his closet. The same closet he may have been locked in for a long time. He prosecuted sex crimes, and made a name for himself in that arena. His interest in theater and his general appearance sets off my "gaydar". I often wonder whether the person he walked away with was male and/or someone who figured into one of his prosecutions, either as a victim, witness or defendant.

OK, he was married, had a daughter and a girlfriend. That doesn't rule out having a same sex relationship on the side.

In central PA, a gay/bi prosecutor who came out would be tarred and feathered, IMHO. If he had a relationship with someone connected with a case, he would be toast.

[carbuff]

Yeah, it kind of seems to have some characteristics of that sort of situation...

[J. J. in Phila]

I have also expressed the thought before that Ray may have had a really big skeleton in his closet. The same closet he may have been locked in for a long time. He prosecuted sex crimes, and made a name for himself in that arena. His interest in theater and his general appearance sets off my "gaydar". I often wonder whether the person he walked away with was male and/or someone who figured into one of his prosecutions, either as a victim, witness or defendant.

OK, he was married, had a daughter and a girlfriend. That doesn't rule out having a same sex relationship on the side.

In central PA, a gay/bi prosecutor who came out would be tarred and feathered, IMHO. If he had a relationship with someone connected with a case, he would be toast.

I've communicated with people who know/knew him, and they uniformly say no. RFG was not a monk and his closer friends will say that, but he was married twice and living with his girlfriend at the time he disappeared.

Also, he was retiring in 8.5 months; he wasn't planning to run for anything or even practice law after he retired. Even if he was gay, or bi-sexual, there was no reason to cover it up. It's not illegal. People might look funny at him, but he'd be retired. On top of that, the county contains a college town, and Obama carried it in 2008, and Bush just barely carried it.

[J. J. in Phila]

From what I'm hearing, the DA has gotten rid of about half the prosecutors.

[J. J. in Phila]

For those following the case, and related issues, the newly sworn in DA, Stacy Parks Miller, has been "cleaning house" at the office.

Out:

ADA Steve Sloane
[RFG's closest friend at the office, often commented on the case, hired by RFG in 1992]

ADA Karen Kuebler
[Hired by RFG in c. 2000]

ADA Carolyn [Fenton] Larrabee
[Hired by Mark Smith after RFG vanished; she is the one that saw him in the metallic colored car behind the Courthouse on the afternoon of 4/15/05.]

Legal Secretary Kristin Ergott

Resigned last week:

Patty Fornicola, to take a job at DUI court.
[W/VA, clerk, and RFG's girlfriend, whom he was living with when he vanished. She is the one that got the call from him on 4/15/05 while he was in the Brush Valley area.]

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1708234.html

As far as I know, the only two ADA's that worked for RFG left are Smith and Nathan Boob.

[J. J. in Phila]

I changed the title of the blog on 1/1/10 to "Sporadic Comments on Ray Gricar."

You can find it here: http://tiny.cc/SCORGCDT

I made some other changes:

1. Under the Blog Roll (on the right) there are links to, among other things:

A. An "Index of Indexes" with includes an index of the known evidence, the theories, and a detailed chronological account of the investigation.

B. A link to the sight photos of Lewisburg from my trip there in late July of 2009.

2. An e-mail address where you can e-mail me. I might even respond if I'm in a good mood. ;)

I have commented on the usefulness of Webslueths for research, especially because it is archived. Often times, I can see public reaction to news stories by looking at the comments.

I will add that while this post is blatant self-promoting, :) , I do not work for the Centre Daily Times and am not compensated for doing the blog by anyone.

If you are interested, drop by.

[txsleuth]

for anyone's who is interested - here is an archived list of posts from the Ray Gricar board at Court TV (which the moderator there has now closed)

http://boards.insessiontrials.com/archive/index.php/f-127.html

and here is my google site on the case

http://sites.google.com/site/raygricar/

[webrocket]

I think the dude just wanted to vanish and I'd say he did a good job at it.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think the dude just wanted to vanish and I'd say he did a good job at it.

You may be right. I will admit to being skeptical, however.

[Decatur Doll]

If he left voluntarily--what has been referred to as "walk-away"-- it would almost seem as if he had assistance. How could he have gotten out of Lewisburg, a small college town in the middle of nowhere, without someone helping him? Public transportation does not exist extensively as in urban areas and it is impossible to rent a car without a credit card. Hitchhiking seems unlikely, because there would be too much of a risk that someone would remember him. Walking, hiking, out of town also bears that same risk. So it seems more likely that he had to have someone meeting him to give him a ride out of town--IF IT WAS A WALK-AWAY! Who could/would possibly give him a ride?

[webrocket]

If he left voluntarily--what has been referred to as "walk-away"-- it would almost seem as if he had assistance. How could he have gotten out of Lewisburg, a small college town in the middle of nowhere, without someone helping him? Public transportation does not exist extensively as in urban areas and it is impossible to rent a car without a credit card. Hitchhiking seems unlikely, because there would be too much of a risk that someone would remember him. Walking, hiking, out of town also bears that same risk. So it seems more likely that he had to have someone meeting him to give him a ride out of town--IF IT WAS A WALK-AWAY! Who could/would possibly give him a ride?

He could have paid cash for a used car and had it waiting for him there in Lewisburg as he dumped his real car. Whether he registered the car under someone else's name or put fictitious plate on it, who knows.

In the grand scheme of details in an exit strategy, this one seems simple.

[pittsburghgirl]

Why would anyone on the verge of retirement just walk away from pension or 401K/403B benefits or from Social Security? He's a grown man; all he had to do was finish his term and move on.

[J. J. in Phila]

Decatur Doll and Webrocket, your questions are the ones I've been asking.

Pittsburghgirl, there are very serious question on the asset situation. He had, for years, made in excess of $100,000, but had just over $100,000 in his account. Some of that was covered in the fourth part of the Gricar thread.

Mr. Gricar didn't have a 401K, but his daughter will get his pension benefits.

[J. J. in Phila]

I've done blogs on both Mr. Gricar's assets and pension.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is an early post on RFG's assets and income:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39539&page=13

I think the blogs on it will give you greater insight.

[webrocket]

I really don't care what happened to Gricar. He took off plain and simple.

Prosecutors in places like NYC, DC, Detroit or LA are not murdered by street gangs they put behind bars. NO ONE would rub out Gricar for any case he used to work on.

[Mia]

I really don't care what happened to Gricar. He took off plain and simple.

Prosecutors in places like NYC, DC, Detroit or LA are not murdered by street gangs they put behind bars. NO ONE would rub out Gricar for any case he used to work on.

I totally agree. I've just been reading up on this case and my instinct is that he took off too. He left his pension/accounted for money behind so his daughter would have something, clearly. And I know this is a small thing, really, but on the day he was last seen wasn't he seen wearing the same clothes as the night before? What does that tell you? He was up all night...couldn't sleep...excited, perhaps. And took off bright and early the next day. True, that someone would assassinate Gricar for prosecuting them is too farfetched and unrealistic. This guy was a DA for 20 years, very smart, knew exactly what he needed to do to disappear without a trace, and pulled it off without a hitch. Many will continue to question his motivations, and I have no idea what they were, why he would want to disappear. There are countless reasons. Only he knows, really. But I am sure this guy is most definitely alive. IMO, of course.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm undecided, overall.

One theory that I had early on was that RFG was lured to Lewisburg and murdered, because he was a prosecutor. Tony Gricar referred to it as someone doing a "slow burn," someone with a grudge. Now, I think that is very unlikely.

One thing, however, that does keep me up at night was that Mr. Gricar might have met someone, possibly a lover. There was a "Mystery Woman" seen with him at one point in Lewisburg.

On theory that I have is that he went to Lewisburg to meet this "Mystery Woman," which he did. Either there was some argument and this "Mystery Woman" killed him, perhaps in a fit of rage, or that she had a significant other that showed up after she left.

I think it is a real possibility, but so is walk away, or drive away. I have theories and some evidence for both, but not strong evidence for either. :(