Evidence Discussion

[SleuthyGal]

What additional evidence are you aware of or have questions about? Let's discuss. Keep it factual, please. No theories.


Items seized/gathered from Cooper Home during SW execution:

1. Photographs of Brad Cooper
2. Cheek swabs from Brad Cooper
3. Prints of Brad Cooper
4. Brownish Green Vegetable material collected from 2001 BMW 325i
5. one sealed bag containing a green colored dress
6. one sealed bag containing a black colored sports bra and red colored shirt
7. one oval braided rug sealed in paper
8. one sealed envelope containing trace taping
9. one sealed bag containing one pair of blue and gray tennis shoes
10. one pair of 'corso-como' hi-heel shoes
11. one sealed envelope containing a pink colored object thought to be a nail
12. one sealed bag containing 2 gray colored seat covers
13. one sealed bag containing a gray colored seat cover
14. one sealed envelope containing a portion of green colored plastic
15. one sealed bag containing a pillow
16. one sealed bag containing bed linen
17. one sealed bag containing a white colored size XL 'Nike Dryfit' shirt
18. one sealed envelope containing hair
19. one sealed envelope containing hair
20. misc documents and writings
21. one canon DS 126131 camera, one sanrio camera and one Digipro carrying case
22. one IBM Thinkpad T43P laptop computer, one HP XW4400 workstation tower, on Macbook Pro laptop, and one Maxtor hard drive
23. one white pillow case
24. one item of child's clothing
25. one graduation program of NCSU commencement
26. two swabs from the exterior of driver's door handle 2001 BMW 325i
27. one swab from the interior of the driver's side door handle 2001 BMW 325i
28. hair from interior trunk lid, BMW 325i
29. grass from the right front seat, BMW 325i
30. hair from the bottom of front right bumper/spoiler, BMW 325i
31. trunk floor, 2001 BMW 325i
32. hair from left front tire well, 2001 BMW 325i
33. one pair of rainbow flip-flops

Digital/Computer Items seized from Brad Cooper Home:

1. IBM Thinkpad T43P laptop computer
2. One HP XW440 Workstation Tower
3. One Dell Dimension 8300 Tower
4. One MacBook Pro laptop computer
5. One Maxtor external hard drive
6. One Cruzer Micro 2.0 GB thumb drive
7. One Western Digital external hard drive

Items seized from BC Cisco office as detailed in search warrant:

1. Numerous misc documents containing writings
2. 'Cruzer' thumb drive
3. one 'sony' DVD-RW Disc
4. one telephone and charger
5. one external hard drive
6. six unopened envelopes
7. four 'sony' CD-R discs
Interviews revealed that Brad Cooper went to his office at least one time between the dates of 7/12 and 7/18.


Autopsy Report (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/09/29/3638836/CooperAutopsy.pdf)

[justthinking2008]

SG,

This thread is an excellent idea and may help clarify evidence from hearsay, do you think it would be possible to not theorize on this thread and just present the cold hard facts as they are known, not as they are suspected to be.

Thanks,

JT

[SleuthyGal]

I wonder if they determined if that 'pink nail' was in fact a nail and if, in fact, it was Nancy's.

Also, I remain very curious about the 'green piece of plastic.'

[SleuthyGal]

SG,

This thread is an excellent idea and may help clarify evidence from hearsay, do you think it would be possible to not theorize on this thread and just present the cold hard facts as they are known, not as they are suspected to be.

Thanks,

JT

I'm ALL for sticking to just the facts (not to be confused with "Just the Fax") of the case and staying on point with that, so yes I can do it, and hope everyone will agree to that as well. Good idea.

[RaleighNC]

I am interested in the "vegetable matter" taken from BC's car.

I most interested in the forensic evaluation of the computer harddrives from the FBI. If I remember correctly, that was the one piece of evidence that was noted that had not yet been received a few weeks ago.

I am also interested in the possible whereabouts of the second diamond stud earring, as the autopsy notes that she was found wearing one only.

[Skittles]

SG: Do you think it would be a good idea to copy the list of evidence taken from the home and Cisco into the first post of this thread while you can still edit it? I think someone put the list for each warrant in the legal documents thread way back.

[raisincharlie]

The evidence most interesting to me will be that related to the 325i BMW. in particular the hair removed from the front left spoiler and the front right wheel well as well as evidence obtained from the boot flooring removed from the 325i.

I am very interested in learning if this vehicle was searched at Scott Heider's house or if LE took it into custody and transported it to a secure location for testing and sampling.

ETA - that could be right front spoiler and left front wheel well - can't remember for sure.

[Skittles]

Done...edited post #1

Thanks! I see it was you who put it in the docs thread to begin with!

[SleuthyGal]

I'm interested in many things, not the least among them is what forensic evidence, if any, was found on items removed from the home: the cushion covers, the pillow, the sheets, the oval rug. Was there any physical evidence in the house to show/prove that Nancy did not leave her house alive the morning of 7/12?

[momto3kids]

SG...how do you feel about adding the autopsy report in your 1st post?

[momto3kids]

You mean the link to the report? Sure.
Is there any way to copy and post the actual findings? Or should we type it out? Just listing items like her toenail polish color, stomach contents, clothing, etc.

[chauncey7381]

I would like to know the type of Corso Como heels that were taken. Were they the stilletto, tall, pointy type, and what type of edges the heels have.

I also would like to know know where and if traces of the green plastic and tracing tape was found on her.

[SleuthyGal]

AUTOPSY REPORT (http://www.wral.com/asset/news/local/2008/09/29/3638836/CooperAutopsy.pdf)

Office of the Chief Medical Examiner
CB # 7580 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7580
Telephone 9199662253
REPORT OF AUTOPSY EXAMINATION
DECEDENT
Document Identifier B200803115

Autopsy Type: ME Autopsy
Name Nancy Cooper
Age 34 yrs
Race White
Sex F

AUTHORIZATION
Authorized By Michael J. Papez MD Received From Wake

ENVIRONMENT
Date of Exam 07/15/2008
Time of Exam 10:30
Autopsy Facility Office of the Chief Medical Examiner Persons Present Mr. Kevin Gerity, Mr. Clyde Gibbs, Dr. Gaffney-Kraft, Dr. Simmons, Mr. Bill Holloman, WE Jones, Wake CCBI

CERTIFICATION
Cause of Death: Asphyxiation

The facts stated herein are correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. Digitally signed by
John D. Butts MD 29 September 2008 16:22

DIAGNOSES
Decomposed human remains
Hyoid fracture

IDENTIFICATION
Body Identified By Dental Exam

EXTERNAL DESCRIPTION
Length 70 inches
Weight 132 pounds
Body Condition Decomposed
Rigor Absent
Livor Undetectable
Hair Long, brown
Eyes Decomposed
Teeth Present, natural, no restorations
These remains are received within two heavy duty body bags. They are those of a mature female lying supine on a white
sheet. She is clothed only in a elastic halter athletic style bra of black, gray and red coloration that is pulled up above
the breasts. There is a clear stone stud earring in the left earlobe. Pink polish is present on the toenails.

There is extensive infestation of the body with scattered fly eggs and active maggots. A variety of other insects including crickets and large numbers of ants are present. There is dark discoloration of the facial features with considerable
insect damage to the right side of the face and a portion of the neck. There is extensive infestation in the area of the genitalia. Some caked clay like dirt is present along the medial surface of the left upper leg, knee and lower leg. There
is insect scavenging deeper into the tissues in this area. The body is bloated with resultant overall discoloration. There is some drying of the fingers of the right hand, less so on the left. There is a tanned appearence to the skin of the lower
legs.

INJURIES
There is a faint linear mark across the central neck in the area of the thyroid prominence approximately 1.3" in length.

At the left margin there are several circular insect defects. Internally, there is dark discoloration of the anterior strap muscles on the left without definite evidence of hemorrhage.

There is marked congestion of the supraclavicular tissues on the left, but without obvious hemorrhage.

There is an area of abnormal flexibility in the distal portion of the right wing of the hyoid bone without accompanying hemorrhage. After stripping the periostium it is noted that the lateral surface of the bone is intact and that there is a
vertical linear fracture of the medial surface.

DISPOSITION OF CLOTHING AND PERSONAL EFFECTS
The following items are released with the body:
None

The following items are preserved as evidence:
Earring and halter top

PROCEDURES

Radiographs: Skull films are taken, they reveal no metallic objects save the earring. No dental restorations are noted.

Microbiology: None

Chemistry: None

Identification: The appearance of the teeth on dental photographs brought by law enforcement depicting the upper and lower teeth
from doctors Ferri and Lawrence, 431 Keisler Drive, Suite 200, Cary, NC 27518 are compared with the appearance and configuration of the teeth in the victim. The location, configuration and coloring of the teeth are identical. It is noted
that the accompanying x-rays show all teeth present save the four third molars and there are no restorations present; this matches the configuration of the teeth in the victim. The dental examination is repeated by Alan Samuelson, DDS who concurs in the identification.

Special Evidence Collection: A Sexual Assault Evidence Collection Kit is utilized and the items collected include pulled head hairs, pulled pubic hairs, oral swabs and smears, vaginal swabs and smears and a blood stain sample. Fingernail scrapings are collected at the request of law enforcement. The kit, scrapings, bra/halter, wrapping sheet and earring are turned over to WE Jones of the Wake CCBI on 7-15-08.

INTERNAL EXAMINATION

Body Cavities:
The pleural, peritoneal and pericardial cavities show no evidence of hemorrhage or ongoing pathology. Small collections of decompositional fluid are present in the pleural cavities.

Cardiovascular System:
Heart Weight 280 grams
The coronaries show normal distribution and no atherosclerosis. The myocardium is brownish without areas of discoloration or thinning. The valves are normally formed. The aorta and its major branches are intact without atherosclerosis. No blood remains in the vascular system save some in the pulmonary arteries. This is collected for DNA.

Respiratory System:
Right Lung Weight 410 grams
Left Lung Weight 380 grams
They show a normal configuration. They are partly collapsed. No areas of consolidation are noted. The pulmonary arteries contain some decomposed blood. No definitive clots are noted. The bronchi are clear. The trachea contains a small amount of fluid and debris. There is no edema of the epiglottis or larynx. There is darkening of the laryngeal and sublaryngeal epithelium with the suggestion of some fine petechial hemorrhages. The hyoid bone and thyroid cartilages
are intact save as noted. The tongue is unremarkable.

Gastrointestinal System:
The GI tract is intact throughout its length. The appendix is present. The stomach contains a small amount of reddish fluid and one fragment of what may be onion.

Liver:
Liver Weight 1070 grams
It is pale reddish brown without accentuation of the lobular architecture. The gallbladder contains a small amount of bile and the extrahepatic system appears intact.

Spleen:
Spleen Weight 155 grams
Soft but normally formed.

Pancreas:
Autolyzed, otherwise unremarkable.

Urinary:
Right Kidney Weight 110 grams
Left Kidney Weight 150 grams
The cortical surfaces are smooth. The ureters are intact. The bladder is empty.

Reproductive:
Uterus, tubes and ovaries are present and appear unremarkable. The cervix is unremarkable. Examination of the external genitalia shows considerable insect activity and some darkening, but no obvious trauma.

Endocrine:
The thyroid gland appears to be of normal size and configuration. The adrenals are unremarkable.

Neurologic:
Brain Weight 1180 grams
The meninges appear thin and delicate. There is no blood in the epidural, subdural or subarachnoid compartments. The right side of the brain is somewhat firmer and slightly drier in appearance than the left. Though markedly decomposed the brain is intact and multiple coronal sections reveal no evidence of any internal hemorrhage.

Skin:
Abnormalities as noted. The posterior neck is incised and no apparent hemorrhages are noted in the deeper musculature. There is dark discoloration of the anterior central frontal scalp. There is no subgaleal hemorrhage evident.

Immunologic System:
No lymphadenopathy noted.

Musculoskeletal System:
Abnormalities as noted.

MICROSCOPIC EXAMINATION
Microscopic Comment
Sections are autolyzed.

Cardiovascular:
There is no apparent scarring or inflammation in a heart section.

Respiratory:
No pneumonia evident in a lung section.

Liver:
There is no scarring or portal inflammation. There may be some mild fine vacuolation of the hepatocytes.

Genitourinary:
Kidney appears to be unremarkable.

Neurologic:
Brain section is unremarkable.

Musculoskeletal:
A section of strap muscle does not show obvious hemorrhage.

SUMMARY AND INTERPRETATION
This was a 34 year-old woman who allegedly was last seen alive when she left her residence to go jogging on the morning of July 12th. Her largely unclothed remains were found on the afternoon of the 14th face down some distance from her residence. She had been in good general health and was reportedly a regular runner.

Autopsy examination revealed decomposed remains whose condition is consistent with the time interval she was reportedly missing. There was no evidence of any underlying medical conditions that might have caused her death. No serious physical injuries were identified but there was a fracture of the hyoid bone and other subtle trauma could have been masked by decomposition. Toxicological screens on fluid obtained at autopsy revealed an ethanol concentration of 60 mg/dL which could be the result of decomposition. No opiates, cocaine, oxymorphone or organic bases were found except caffeine. When discovered she was only wearing a halter top. Based on the history and autopsy findings it is in my opinion that she died as a result of external causes, homicidal violence, most likely asphyxia by strangulation.

DIAGRAMS
1. adult (front/back)
2. Neck and Shoulders

[justthinking2008]

I have extreme curisoty on two items, the red fluid in her stomach, the ME does not identify, and in the autopsy report he generally pointed out different fluids such as decomped blood and other fluids. He even theorizes the food fragment is onion, I find it strange he did not attempt a guess as to the fluid. Also the pillow holds my interest as I would like to know if some sort of carbon trace existed deep within the fibers of the pillow as to link it directly to the murder.

[justthinking2008]

I have a rather digusting question, I read in the autopsy report that she was brought into ME office in 2 body bags, was she in 2 pieces when she was found, does anyone know for a fact why 2 body bags had to be used. The autopsy report makes no other reference other than 2 bags.

[SleuthyGal]

I have a rather digusting question, I read in the autopsy report that she was brought into ME office in 2 body bags, was she in 2 pieces when she was found, does anyone know for a fact why 2 body bags had to be used. The autopsy report makes no other reference other than 2 bags.

No she was intact. It was due to decomposition and to make sure any 'leakage' or other decomp processes would be contained fully within. Kind of like when you double-bag your garbage just for extra strength (NOT to compare Nancy to garbage as she surely wasn't). Plus any evidence would be protected/double-protected and fully contained.

[SleuthyGal]

I want to know if LE ever resolved who called Brad's phone at/around 6:40am on 7/12 (or how it was done) and who used Nancy's cell phone on 7/12 (if her phone was used). If they can't answer those questions then that could help raise reasonable doubt. In addition I want to know if LE (still) thinks there could be an accomplice.

[Skittles]

Another question (well, two, actually) is did they find anything of interest on the green dress, and where is the orange dress Brad thought she might have worn?

[momto3kids]

On Monday the 14th of July, BC was helping with the search. He was wearing a North Face jacket, a so called beanie cap (1/2 baseball cap) and shorts. He led the LE to a shovel he discovered in some brush behind JJ.

[EnvoyDriver61]

Am I correct in supposing that she was found on her left side, since that side of her body is dirty and most of the drying, insect damage is on the right side of the body?

Also, I am curious regarding the darkening on the frontal scalp. Is that a result of possibly resting of the forehead on the ground after death, or is that discoloration from some trauma before death?

[runr]

Whoa, Nelly! I missed this info about BC "discovering" a shovel behind JJ during the search.

[garner_nc]

Should there be discussion on how the defense will refute or discredit some of the evidence?

[CyberPro]

NCSU,

I am not sure if your have been following along since the beginning, but if you were you would understand why the shovel was significant.

IIRC, Mom was actually present and participating in the search when BC, whom she did not know/recognize at the time, came out of the woods holding the shovel that he found. IIRC he was holding it like it might have been an important discovery, but it was later determined that it had likely been left behind by a construction crew. I seem to recall that he indicated that the shovel was important, or made some other allusion that did not ring true, and only after that did Mom find out who he was.

This smacks of trying to lay a false trail, like she might have been killed with the shovel or possibly buried with it. While on the surface, this is not incriminating, the combination of statements that BC made while holding the shovel, and body language was seriously askew. I welcome Mom to correct me if I have mis-stated what she saw/heard/felt.

So, it is in NO WAY hearsay, this was a personally witnessed event related by the person who witnessed it.

CyberPro

[SusieClue]

Wow! This info about the shovel is very interesting, indeed. I haven't been following very closely for awhile so I didn't know this. Yes, insinuating that she could be buried anywhere and never found... I bet Brad thought he had hit the mother lode when he found that shovel...or does anyone believe he planted it there?

The following question is OT of the shovel...and may be even OT of evidence (however, I think evidence of other undisclosed affairs would be HUGE for the prosecution):

Will the DA be allowed to subpeona the French girl that Brad seemed to have a fling with during his MBA trip? Sorry if already discussed. I just wanted to throw a tomato at my computer screen during his deposition when he said they never kissed. BULL$&^*! Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone knows how that works as far as bringing in a non-US citizen for a trial.

[momto3kids]

NCSU,

I am not sure if your have been following along since the beginning, but if you were you would understand why the shovel was significant.

IIRC, Mom was actually present and participating in the search when BC, whom she did not know/recognize at the time, came out of the woods holding the shovel that he found. IIRC he was holding it like it might have been an important discovery, but it was later determined that it had likely been left behind by a construction crew. I seem to recall that he indicated that the shovel was important, or made some other allusion that did not ring true, and only after that did Mom find out who he was.

This smacks of trying to lay a false trail, like she might have been killed with the shovel or possibly buried with it. While on the surface, this is not incriminating, the combination of statements that BC made while holding the shovel, and body language was seriously askew. I welcome Mom to correct me if I have mis-stated what she saw/heard/felt.

So, it is in NO WAY hearsay, this was a personally witnessed event related by the person who witnessed it.

CyberPro

CP,

You did great explaining it. Only a few corrections....BC actually came up the embankment right in front of my car to get the LE to take them to the shovel. The reason it was a red flag was this was an area that had been searched many times over, but he happened to locate a shovel.

I have posted the details in length a few times...if anyone wants to read about it I encourage them to do a search on WS.

The conversation with BC and how we figured out it was him, I have never told on WS and won't.

[ncsu95]

Wow! This info about the shovel is very interesting, indeed. I haven't been following very closely for awhile so I didn't know this. Yes, insinuating that she could be buried anywhere and never found... I bet Brad thought he had hit the mother lode when he found that shovel...or does anyone believe he planted it there?

The following question is OT of the shovel...and may be even OT of evidence (however, I think evidence of other undisclosed affairs would be HUGE for the prosecution):

Will the DA be allowed to subpeona the French girl that Brad seemed to have a fling with during his MBA trip? Sorry if already discussed. I just wanted to throw a tomato at my computer screen during his deposition when he said they never kissed. BULL$&^*! Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone knows how that works as far as bringing in a non-US citizen for a trial.

Of course, this wouldn't make sense if he killed her, because he would have known where he dumped her...and obviously she would have been found. It wasn't like this was deep in the woods...it was on the edge of new development.

[Daphne69]

I'm interested in the item of child's clothing. I'm hoping it was taken because it may have had a stain on it and not because it was possibly used -- either to strangle NC or to clean up. I just find it to be an incredibly sad thought for the girls to be involved in even such a peripheral way to their mother's death.

[momto3kids]

Wow! This info about the shovel is very interesting, indeed. I haven't been following very closely for awhile so I didn't know this. Yes, insinuating that she could be buried anywhere and never found... I bet Brad thought he had hit the mother lode when he found that shovel...or does anyone believe he planted it there?



The shovel was located in an area no where near the location NC was found.

I posted this very question way back when I disclosed the shovel, and some thought it was planted. I do know it was determined to be a construction shovel by the LE. I have absolutely no idea if it was planted or for some reason a construction worker put it in the brush. We left shortly after.

[SleuthyGal]

The shovel was located in an area no where near the location NC was found.

I posted this very question way back when I disclosed the shovel, and some thought it was planted. I do know it was determined to be a construction shovel by the LE. I have absolutely no idea if it was planted or for some reason a construction worker put it in the brush. We left shortly after.

Perhaps the same shovel used by Casey Anthony in the disposal of Caylee's body? j/k. Shovels sure are getting a bad rap lately.

[garner_nc]

I have been playing around with google maps and internet explorer today to see if there was a way to tell where I searched for a body dump site just by using the mouse or arrow keys. Well - there is. The GPS coordinates of where you looked on a map are stored in the temporary internet files folder. So if BC located his house on the map and then used the mouse or arrow keys to move around on the map to scan nearby areas - all that activity is captured at each change in GPS coordinate. I assume he would have cleared his internet files trying to cover his tracks.

Unfortunately for him, stuff we delete off our PC's are not really deleted. This information would be easy to recovered. The easiest way to permanently delete information is to physically destroy the hard drive. There is special software you can buy that will scrub your hard drive but I doubt he has that.

Maybe this information was recovered by the FBI...Wait until the trial to find out.

[SleuthyGal]

Good research Garner! My company physically drills holes into hard drives before disposing of them...as they said there's no other good way, quickly and thoroughly and cheaply, to ensure the hard drive is really truly 'dead.'

[CW]

Heads up this will be the only WARNING given members here at WS will respect one another and will respect one anothers opinions. If I have to delete anymore rude/snide or tacky post the member who posted the deleted post will have their posting privileges suspended.
Thank You all.
WindChime

[Maja]

The shovel was located in an area no where near the location NC was found.

I posted this very question way back when I disclosed the shovel, and some thought it was planted. I do know it was determined to be a construction shovel by the LE. I have absolutely no idea if it was planted or for some reason a construction worker put it in the brush. We left shortly after.


Perhaps while disposing of NC he spotted a shovel, picked it up with gloved hand and planted it for later discovery...just a thought.

[Roy23]

Back from my latest banning.


Anyhow, what I am most interested in is just how LE knew that this was not a random case from the get go. I see how LE handled this case close to the vest and kept details out of the media. Very professional. But it was immediate that they stated this was not a random crime and the public was safe. I know we don't know much, but I totally believe they almost had this solved immediately after finding the body.

I think maybe evidence on or in the vehicle that tied to the disposal place or Nancy.

[SleuthyGal]

what I am most interested in is just how LE knew that this was not a random case from the get go. I see how LE handled this case close to the vest and kept details out of the media. Very professional. But it was immediate that they stated this was not a random crime and the public was safe. I know we don't know much, but I totally believe they almost had this solved immediately after finding the body. I think maybe evidence on or in the vehicle that tied to the disposal place or Nancy.

I think when LE first talked to JA and CC in front of Brad's house on 7/12, and then Brad came home and started telling them his story, they probably started to get that http://i33.tinypic.com/bhjbzl.jpg feeling that something wasn't quite right. Right from the word 'go' the info Brad was giving them didn't match what they learned from others. Combine that with their observations inside the house, the cars, etc. I think they saw early and obvious signs that this was not 'random,' and there was domestic discord in that marriage. Remember they noticed scratches on Brad's neck on 7/12, they noticed the car's trunk had been vacuumed, and the rest of the car was still messy. These are clues that something isn't making sense...and they go from there.

[reddress58]

I think when LE first talked to JA and CC in front of Brad's house on 7/12, and then Brad came home and started telling them his story, they probably started to get that http://i33.tinypic.com/bhjbzl.jpg feeling that something wasn't quite right. Right from the word 'go' the info Brad was giving them didn't match what they learned from others. Combine that with their observations inside the house, the cars, etc. I think they saw early and obvious signs that this was not 'random,' and there was domestic discord in that marriage. Remember they noticed scratches on Brad's neck on 7/12, they noticed the car's trunk had been vacuumed, and the rest of the car was still messy. These are clues that something isn't making sense...and they go from there.
...and we are not sure if these woman (and NC's family) gave LE information that was not published in affidavits, because of LE's request for silence. Such as: plans NC may have had that morning that BC does (did) not know about. If LE had several sources telling him that NC had plans to "escape", and the friends could give details, then that would be even more compelling reason to make it "not random". Just a thought since this theory has been brought up before.

[Roy23]

...and we are not sure if these woman (and NC's family) gave LE information that was not published in affidavits, because of LE's request for silence. Such as: plans NC may have had that morning that BC does (did) not know about. If LE had several sources telling him that NC had plans to "escape", and the friends could give details, then that would be even more compelling reason to make it "not random". Just a thought since this theory has been brought up before.

I think it is more than that. That was a bold move to tell the public that because of a few inconsistancies. I think they had evidence of a struggle or something connecting the vehicle to the dump site from the day that Nancy was found. But they waited until all the evidence came in. I guess we will find out one day.

What I was totally wrong about is that I really felt that Brad would commit Harry Carey before he went to jail. I knew when I saw the depositions that he had something to hide. What a loser to kill the mother of your small children. Why not just divorce? He cared more about his money than the welfare of his own children. That is what this whole case is going to be about. Money.

[raisincharlie]

I think it is more than that. That was a bold move to tell the public that because of a few inconsistancies. I think they had evidence of a struggle or something connecting the vehicle to the dump site from the day that Nancy was found. But they waited until all the evidence came in. I guess we will find out one day.

What I was totally wrong about is that I really felt that Brad would commit Harry Carey before he went to jail. I knew when I saw the depositions that he had something to hide. What a loser to kill the mother of your small children. Why not just divorce? He cared more about his money than the welfare of his own children. That is what this whole case is going to be about. Money.

Roy - as I recall Chief Bazemore gave an explanation of why LE was saying this was not a random occurrance. If I am recalling correctly that explanation was provided in the July 14th 630 pm press conference. It is either at just after the 6 minute mark or just after the 11 minute mark in the presser video. She did not however say anything about any evidence which may have made them think so but rather spoke about what was missing to make them decide it was not random. Truth is, it was probably a comnination of the two - what was witnessed in the home, and what events were missing that would signify it as a random event. Hope after your review that her description will help you.

[Roy23]

Roy - as I recall Chief Bazemore gave an explanation of why LE was saying this was not a random occurrance. If I am recalling correctly that explanation was provided in the July 14th 630 pm press conference. It is either at just after the 6 minute mark or just after the 11 minute mark in the presser video. She did not however say anything about any evidence which may have made them think so but rather spoke about what was missing to make them decide it was not random. Truth is, it was probably a comnination of the two - what was witnessed in the home, and what events were missing that would signify it as a random event. Hope after your review that her description will help you.

i think it is going to be some evidence that solidified that Charlie. That is why they ignored the witness who saw Nancy supposedly. That is my opinion at least.

[raisincharlie]

i think it is going to be some evidence that solidified that Charlie. That is why they ignored the witness who saw Nancy supposedly. That is my opinion at least.

I agree with you Roy - I think LE saw some immediate red flags when they entered the home on the 12th. I really don't think Brad was quite ready for LE to show up at 3pm that afternoon. I don't think LE ignored the lady who claimed she thought she saw Nancy. I simply think the lady who made the claim felt more should have been done to respond to her directly. Which IMO is a pretty small thought given they were searching for Nancy and this woman didn't know where Nancy was. A murder case changes everything and who knows what LE saw and or collected at the location where Nancy was found. Perhaps Nancy's clothes were there and those clothes did not include a light colored t-shirt as the woman described. Its possible and it certainly would rule out what the woman claimed Nancy was wearing, thus ruling out her claim. More important things to do if her description didn't match up would you agree ?

[Roy23]

I agree with you Roy - I think LE saw some immediate red flags when they entered the home on the 12th. I really don't think Brad was quite ready for LE to show up at 3pm that afternoon. I don't think LE ignored the lady who claimed she thought she saw Nancy. I simply think the lady who made the claim felt more should have been done to respond to her directly. Which IMO is a pretty small thought given they were searching for Nancy and this woman didn't know where Nancy was. A murder case changes everything and who knows what LE saw and or collected at the location where Nancy was found. Perhaps Nancy's clothes were there and those clothes did not include a light colored t-shirt as the woman described. Its possible and it certainly would rule out what the woman claimed Nancy was wearing, thus ruling out her claim. More important things to do if her description didn't match up would you agree ?


No doubt about it. It could also be that they tied the vehicle to something at the dump site immediately. It sure does seem that JA may not have given Brad all the time he needed. In any case, you can bank they got something big at this point anyway.

[runr]

10-01-2008, 11:16 AM runr Scenario that may fit details as known at this point---------------------------------------------------
I am of the opinion that a small number of NC's friends were aware that NC planned to LEAVE BC that Sat. AM, and the ruse/story was that she had plans to paint at 8AM after "going for a run."

I think that her friends knew the whole plan and covered for her safety (and the children's) and that is why NC was like, "Whatever," when MH asked her the night before about BC playing tennis with him in the AM.

She intended to be gone by then with the kids, not "gone" as the events actually happened.
************************************************** *****
I think may still be the reason why, without a thorough (sp?) exam of the house and car, LE was able to so quickly look no further than BC.

[SleuthyGal]

I am of the opinion that a small number of NC's friends were aware that NC planned to LEAVE BC that Sat. AM, and the ruse/story was that she had plans to paint at 8AM after "going for a run."

I think that her friends knew the whole plan and covered for her safety (and the children's) and that is why NC was like, "Whatever," when MH asked her the night before about BC playing tennis with him in the AM.

I've heard that same rumor.

[garner_nc]

^^I think if that was the fact then the affidavits from at least one of her friends would have stated that she was "leaving" that Saturday. None of her friends stated that, therefore I find it unlikely she was leaving that Saturday morning.

Leaving soon - Yes. Just not the Saturday she went missing

[fran]

I've heard it said that 'sometimes the lack of evidence, is the evidence.

Having said that, IMO, the (sudden) cleaning of the house by the suspect that fateful morning may be a piece of evidence LE has.

The {proof} that he did NOT normally do housework is, IMO, from Nancy's own mouth, via taped message played at the child custody hearing. That, AND added to what Nancy's sister witnessed first hand when she would stay with Nancy and the statements by Nancy's friends as well. IMO, those will most likely impeach Brad's words that he always helped around the house, as stated in his affidavits.

PLUS,........IMO, I don't believe for one minute that Brad would wash the floor of that house on his hands and knees. (see tape #7, used 'rag' to wash floor) THUS, the lack of a mop (to test for forensics). (ala, Peterson case, 'mop' SP used AFTER Laci went missing confiscated by LE)

All LE needs is info from Nancy's friends and family that Nancy did use a mop and the absence of a mop in the home (with hardwood floors) COULD possibly be 'circumstantial evidence' to a jury that Brad dumped the mop that morning while he was 'alleged' to have been looking for Nancy. (dumped with 'other' things that could be used to prove a crime was committed in the home)

JMHO
fran

[piedmont]

I'm wondering what damning evidence LE has. If the trunk bottom tested positive for something, that would clench it. I can't imagine BC saying anything in an email that could prove guilt.

[hroark2112]

I've heard it said that 'sometimes the lack of evidence, is the evidence.

Having said that, IMO, the (sudden) cleaning of the house by the suspect that fateful morning may be a piece of evidence LE has.

The {proof} that he did NOT normally do housework is, IMO, from Nancy's own mouth, via taped message played at the child custody hearing. That, AND added to what Nancy's sister witnessed first hand when she would stay with Nancy and the statements by Nancy's friends as well. IMO, those will most likely impeach Brad's words that he always helped around the house, as stated in his affidavits.

PLUS,........IMO, I don't believe for one minute that Brad would wash the floor of that house on his hands and knees. (see tape #7, used 'rag' to wash floor) THUS, the lack of a mop (to test for forensics). (ala, Peterson case, 'mop' SP used AFTER Laci went missing confiscated by LE)

All LE needs is info from Nancy's friends and family that Nancy did use a mop and the absence of a mop in the home (with hardwood floors) COULD possibly be 'circumstantial evidence' to a jury that Brad dumped the mop that morning while he was 'alleged' to have been looking for Nancy. (dumped with 'other' things that could be used to prove a crime was committed in the home)

JMHO
fran

That will get you past the GJ. That won't get you to "beyond a reasonable doubt" at trial, IMO.

He'll appeal to any male on the jury who has ever screwed up and done stuff out of the ordinary (i.e. cleaning the house, doing dishes, doing laundry) to get back in his wife's good graces. Kind of a "Look honey...I even scrubbed the floor on my hands & knees!!" thing. That won't sway the women on the jury, but it will sway most of the men!

[fran]

That will get you past the GJ. That won't get you to "beyond a reasonable doubt" at trial, IMO.

He'll appeal to any male on the jury who has ever screwed up and done stuff out of the ordinary (i.e. cleaning the house, doing dishes, doing laundry) to get back in his wife's good graces. Kind of a "Look honey...I even scrubbed the floor on my hands & knees!!" thing. That won't sway the women on the jury, but it will sway most of the men!

It's not any one thing that's going to convict him. It's the totality.

FWIW, Scott Peterson tried that tactic, something to the effect of "Laci was always washing the floor," YET her friends said she wasn't that particular, (especially just the day after the maid had been there!) It was also suspicious that he was vacuuming over and over the area of the washing machine and dryer..........Oh, yeah, also FWIW, there were BOTH men and women on his jury and they ALL thought he was guilty! ;)

One piece at a time, one circumstance at a time,............there is NO coincidence when it comes to murder.:waitasec:

Just sayin',
fran

[La.Sandy]

Hi. This is my first post so go easy on me. I have been reading since the beginning of this case and just got the nerve to register and post.

Question for you smart people. Could it be that Brad slept with the girls that night because he suspected NC was going to flee with them. Did he search NC's room while she was still at the party and find something that made him keep the girls in his room that night? It seems like we heard that NC slept with the girls every night (maybe in friends' affidavits?). Was the first we heard of BC and NC taking turns in BC's depostion? BC was grilled about details of that night--bedtime routine, etc. and I got the feeling that they didn't believe this story. Were the girls really sleeping in NC's room after all? What have the girls said about that night and their usual bedroom routine?

Any thoughts?

[raisincharlie]

Hi. This is my first post so go easy on me. I have been reading since the beginning of this case and just got the nerve to register and post.

Question for you smart people. Could it be that Brad slept with the girls that night because he suspected NC was going to flee with them. Did he search NC's room while she was still at the party and find something that made him keep the girls in his room that night? It seems like we heard that NC slept with the girls every night (maybe in friends' affidavits?). Was the first we heard of BC and NC taking turns in BC's depostion? BC was grilled about details of that night--bedtime routine, etc. and I got the feeling that they didn't believe this story. Were the girls really sleeping in NC's room after all? What have the girls said about that night and their usual bedroom routine?

Any thoughts?

Hi La.Sandy

Good first post. You are right, some of Nancy's friends did indeed say that Nancy was the one who slept with the girls, along with her keys. I think some of your ideas are very good. I do believe Nancy was getting close to leaving and it is quite possible that Brad did some snooping. A previous fiancee posted an affidavit saying that she found out Brad was sneaking into her apartment after they broke up so I suspect he would have snooped on Nancy as well. He did get in her car and confiscate the children's passports. So it appears he can be and was sneaky for his own reasons.

I have always thought there was something odd about Brad claiming to be sleeping in the same bed as his two little girls at night. Actually I found it pretty darn creepy and alarming to be honest. I have also found his claims to always be playing with children to be odd as well. I think there was much in Brad's deposition that Alice Stubbs wasn't buying.

[per_curiam]

Hi, La Sandy. Your scenarios could be. I wonder if Brad was sleeping with them after Nancy came home, after she was killed, because she wouldn't be sleeping with the girls after she got home if she was dead! Maybe after he killed her he slept with the girls to keep them from looking for their mom.

Don't you wonder how people like Brad Cooper, Scott Peterson and the like can walk around looking like "so what"? If I do anything terrible, you're going to know it because I won't be able to lie and get by with it. These guys act like the death of their wife is like making another peanut butter sandwich. Just an everyday occurrence, no big deal to them.

[La.Sandy]

Ah, per_curiam, some more creepy possibilities! Brad is way to "cool" to me. I agree with you.

[per_curiam]

You know, Brad Cooper is a big, long guy. The girls probably had a double bed, or they could've had twin beds. I don't know. But can you imagine big huge Brad sleeping with the two girls regularly? He's too much into himself to do that. He'd probably rather sleep alone. I don't think it's a good idea to be sleeping with them anyway. All my assumptions aren't worth p-diddly, but that's what I'm thinking.

If anyone ever had to sleep with our kids when they were very young, it was me. Husband had to get up very early, so he needed his undisturbed sleep.

I'd think the pediatricians would have mentioned to quit sleeping with the girls along with getting Katie off the bottle. I'd also think that Nancy would be aware that giving milk to a chld, especially in the bottle at night would contribute to dental caries in a big way. Ever seen "nursing bottle mouth"? Black rotted teeth. I wonder what Nancy's friends knew of Katie's nightly habits, drinking milk from a bottle when she awoke? Or is this Brad's big story of convenience?

[momto3kids]

Hi. This is my first post so go easy on me. I have been reading since the beginning of this case and just got the nerve to register and post.

Question for you smart people. Could it be that Brad slept with the girls that night because he suspected NC was going to flee with them. Did he search NC's room while she was still at the party and find something that made him keep the girls in his room that night? It seems like we heard that NC slept with the girls every night (maybe in friends' affidavits?). Was the first we heard of BC and NC taking turns in BC's depostion? BC was grilled about details of that night--bedtime routine, etc. and I got the feeling that they didn't believe this story. Were the girls really sleeping in NC's room after all? What have the girls said about that night and their usual bedroom routine?

Any thoughts?

Welcome La Sandy!

I actually listened last night for the 1st time to some of depo #7 where he talks about this. I found some things quite interesting. As soon as I heard him speak of this I was questioning where he really was when she came home.

This stood out to me...

a) he mentions he had moved out of his and Nancy's bed quite awhile back because Bella had slept between him and NC and Bella moved too much for him. This was before he moved out permanently this past winter.
b) most kids habits of twisting and turning in the bed don't change too fast, all my kids were years before they stopped doing this.
c) interesting he was in the middle of the two girls and not on the edge. Bella was only turning 2 and she was on the edge? Even if the bed was against the wall I always feared suffocation with a young child.
d) he says it was very dark in the room, but NC opened the door to check on them. The hallway light was on, and she opened and shut the door. He knew the time it was when asked by Stubbs. I guess he had a watch that lit up, because if he doesn't this will be a part of the evidence that can hurt him IMO.

[AmarilloByAM]

The sleeping in the bed with the girls part is weird no matter which angle you look at it ... part of his trying to prevent Nancy from leaving with the girls in the middle of the night you think?

[momto3kids]

The sleeping in the bed with the girls part is weird no matter which angle you look at it ... part of his trying to prevent Nancy from leaving with the girls in the middle of the night you think?
I really don't think she was going to leave in the middle of the night. At the custody hearing JA had her calendar presented and it had JA helping NC to organize her home on Sunday the 13th.

She had intentions of leaving, but I feel she was going to do it legally correct. On this forum alone I have noticed different answers to different questions, one being if she could or couldn't get into Canada without the girl's passports. IMO it was too risky to try it, only to loose the girls to BC who she was trying to flee from.

[Star12]

Since it was Pinochi-nose that said he was sleeping with the girls, and that Katie had a bottle........ :liar: :liar: :liar:

It's so difficult to believe someone who is a proven liar. It's so dificult to believe someone whose credibility is waay beyond suspect. It's so difficult to believe someone whose main focus is only himself.

What is it they say? You can't con a con? I hope he makes lots of new friends who don't believe a word he says, either. (He's not a convict yet, but like Krista, I think he will be).

(If he was sleeping with the girls, if Katie did have a bottle, it would have only been because he either didn't want to or didn't know how to deal with the children at bedtime).

And BTW, I don't think anyone would have questioned those children about any aspect of Nancy's disappearance or murder.

[fran]

Welcome La.Sandy! :)

I agree with others, I don't know that Brad was sleeping with the girls that night.

mom, I too re-listened to the tape #7 and what I find interesting is the minute by minute detail BC gives of that last night and the next day that Nancy went missing, yet..............BC couldn't remember if the girls went to school on that Friday or even that past week at all!:rolleyes:

I also listened to the questions BC was asked about that last morning. They say 'a lawyer doesn't ask a question they don't know the answer to.' At the end of the day, IMO, BC is going to regret that filmed deposition. It's going to come back to bite him during his murder trial, just watch! :eek:

JMHO
fran

[SleuthyGal]

His recall of some details is microscopic; his recall of other events is vague...all within the same timeframe. I wouldn't be able to remember the tiny details about things--can't even remember what I ate yesterday, for instance.

I find it strange that he slept w/the girls and in the same bed. Didn't these kids have their own room? I'm not buying his account of that night...actually I don't know what is the truth and what is a lie since he's been caught lying about many things.

[momto3kids]

I hope they know the watch he says he wore and find there is NO way he could tell the time on it unless the hands were lit or the face lit for him to see.

Otherwise he wasn't in the girls bed when NC got home to be able to know the time. Maybe to read a book, but to sleep there for approx 7 hrs? Naw, I don't buy it at all.

[momto3kids]

BC couldn't remember if the girls went to school on that Friday or even that past week at all!:rolleyes: A little compelling huh? But yet he helped NC most mornings until 9am to get the girl's in the car. I can understand if this was a Mon or Tues in question, but Friday and he can't remember?:bang:

At the end of the day, IMO, BC is going to regret that filmed deposition. It's going to come back to bite him during his murder trial, just watch! :eek:
I hope to be sitting there when it comes back to bite him in the :butthead:

JMHO
fran

Red is mine.

Don't forget the Dreft! He remembers the name of a specific detergent that MOST households have never had or used? This is a man who rarely did laundry. I have to wonder why Dreft stands out in his mind?:waitasec:

[garner_nc]

Maybe he saw the Dreft and knew that with his "HE" washer that he could not use it. Maybe his thought process was "Crap, out of Tide. All we have is Dreft, can't use that, off to HT I go."

Maybe that is why he remembered it.

[ncsu95]

His recall of some details is microscopic; his recall of other events is vague...all within the same timeframe. I wouldn't be able to remember the tiny details about things--can't even remember what I ate yesterday, for instance.

I find it strange that he slept w/the girls and in the same bed. Didn't these kids have their own room? I'm not buying his account of that night...actually I don't know what is the truth and what is a lie since he's been caught lying about many things.

I don't find memory stuff to be strange. Some people can remember names, numbers, etc...but forget what they had for lunch. I remember dates very well, but forget other things that you would think I should remember.

[ncsu95]

Maybe he saw the Dreft and knew that with his "HE" washer that he could not use it. Maybe his thought process was "Crap, out of Tide. All we have is Dreft, can't use that, off to HT I go."

Maybe that is why he remembered it.

Right...murders his wife and then is worried about using dreft in a high end washer. :waitasec:

[per_curiam]

Do men wear watches anymore? Don't they use their cellphones and computers to tell time? I thought watches were "old fashioned". He'll just say he had his watch on the bedside table, if he doesn't say he was wearing it. Let's look for pics of Brad with his watch on, K&B! Put that on your website.

[CyberPro]

Do men wear watches anymore? Don't they use their cellphones and computers to tell time? I thought watches were "old fashioned". He'll just say he had his watch on the bedside table, if he doesn't say he was wearing it. Let's look for pics of Brad with his watch on, K&B! Put that on your website.

I cannot speak for all mankind, but I have my watch on 24/7...

CyberPro

[momto3kids]

Maybe he saw the Dreft and knew that with his "HE" washer that he could not use it. Maybe his thought process was "Crap, out of Tide. All we have is Dreft, can't use that, off to HT I go."

Maybe that is why he remembered it.

NC was the one who asked him to go for detergent per his depo.

IF NC had done the 1st load, since he said it had just completed when he got back from buying the milk, why wouldn't NC ask him to get detergent when he went to buy milk?

IF he did the 1st load, he knew they were out and had over 4 loads to do as he states he had done.

IMO, NC was dead at this time. The story is another tale of his.

[fran]

Red is mine.

Don't forget the Dreft! He remembers the name of a specific detergent that MOST households have never had or used? This is a man who rarely did laundry. I have to wonder why Dreft stands out in his mind?:waitasec:

Perhaps that's just it! He MAY have done one or two tubs of clothes with the Dreft and because it was powdered it may not have all rinsed out of the clothes, thus leaving white marks. Who knows, maybe that's why he went and got the HE detergent!?:waitasec:

Just a thought,
fran

PS.....FWIW, Dreft is supposed to be good for delicates and hand washing which may be the reason Nancy had it there. BC was most likely disgusted when that's all he could find and he had 5 or 6 tubs of clothes to wash! ;)

[per_curiam]

I was looking at the videos from HT once more. I can't see if Brad is wearing the same collared shirt in each visit. One visit definitely shows a dark collared shirt under his sweater (or is that a jacket?). Looks like a golf shirt collar. Are they even the same jeans in each visit? In one visit the jeans look light on the thighs, as if they are faded, and bunched a bit over the tops of his shoes. In the sandals visit, the jeans may not be as bunched over the shoes bec. of the sandals being low cut.

I tried to watch for any signs of a sore hand or arm (from all of Brad's supposed activities, if he had wrangled with Nancy, had to haul a body manually). He originally picked up the milk with one hand then switched. He carried the Tide with one hand. I didn't really get enough "feelings" on that one! Wish there was a way to pause the videos from HT. Is there?

Mom, don't you think you need to make another trip to HT and ask them to enhance their videos? :blowkiss: I need one of those Rent a Geek guys.

[momto3kids]

I was looking at the videos from HT once more. I can't see if Brad is wearing the same collared shirt in each visit. One visit definitely shows a dark collared shirt under his sweater (or is that a jacket?). Looks like a golf shirt collar. Are they even the same jeans in each visit? In one visit the jeans look light on the thighs, as if they are faded, and bunched a bit over the tops of his shoes. In the sandals visit, the jeans may not be as bunched over the shoes bec. of the sandals being low cut.

I tried to watch for any signs of a sore hand or arm (from all of Brad's supposed activities, if he had wrangled with Nancy, had to haul a body manually). He originally picked up the milk with one hand then switched. He carried the Tide with one hand. I didn't really get enough "feelings" on that one! Wish there was a way to pause the videos from HT. Is there?

Mom, don't you think you need to make another trip to HT and ask them to enhance their videos? :blowkiss: I need one of those Rent a Geek guys.

As for the sandals, I wonder why they didn't take the sandals during the SW. It appears to be the same ones he wore the day he was shopping at HT while I was. I couldn't look him too many times in his eye's, so I looked down and noticed his sandals, and his huge tattoo. These sandals could also have had something on them if used to go to the dump site.

Of course they can be different ones, but why not take all the dark ones, just in case???

[SleuthyGal]

What happens if you use non-HE detergent in a HE washer? HE washers were out for some time before Tide and others made a special formula just for them.

[ncsu95]

Do men wear watches anymore? Don't they use their cellphones and computers to tell time? I thought watches were "old fashioned". He'll just say he had his watch on the bedside table, if he doesn't say he was wearing it. Let's look for pics of Brad with his watch on, K&B! Put that on your website.

I don't wear a watch...never have.

[caryresident]

http://www.kurtzandblum.com/CM/Investigation/Suspicious-Necklace.asp

[ncsu95]

Do men wear watches anymore? Don't they use their cellphones and computers to tell time? I thought watches were "old fashioned". He'll just say he had his watch on the bedside table, if he doesn't say he was wearing it. Let's look for pics of Brad with his watch on, K&B! Put that on your website.

http://media.canada.com/8b155442-1233-4729-a252-c06490ca0f9f/nancy.jpg

[ncsu95]

As for the sandals, I wonder why they didn't take the sandals during the SW. It appears to be the same ones he wore the day he was shopping at HT while I was. I couldn't look him too many times in his eye's, so I looked down and noticed his sandals, and his huge tattoo. These sandals could also have had something on them if used to go to the dump site.

Of course they can be different ones, but why not take all the dark ones, just in case???

How far off of the pavement was the body found? I don't believe it was raining that day (or the day before), and from what I saw of the site, it didn't look like much to actually get on a person. Unfortunately, it's a "great" dump site because it's close to populated area (quick to get to), paved (no tire tracks), and fairly obscure due to no houses back there yet.

[Star12]

How far off of the pavement was the body found? I don't believe it was raining that day (or the day before), and from what I saw of the site, it didn't look like much to actually get on a person. Unfortunately, it's a "great" dump site because it's close to populated area (quick to get to), paved (no tire tracks), and fairly obscure due to no houses back there yet.

http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f201/SkittlesView/Cooper%20site/?action=view&current=PDRM0631.jpg

Thanks to Skittles, here's a good photo of the dump site. In case it doesn't show up, there is a wonderful resource on the front page, of photos.

[Maja]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29527344.html

Wonder if BC has a copy of this movie? Look how close the time is for both women...

The murderer in this case was not charged with 1st degree intentional murder either...