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Janis396
11-05-2008, 09:21 PM
she planned this....she had to put that on a rag and put it over her ' face as struggled to get away ,finally going limp.

she was prepared to wait until caylee succumbed, because she persisted in aspixiating this child until it was ok to shut the trunk.

then she shut that trunk...she looked down at caylee laying there, and she shut that trunk.

it's over Casey...

Imagine how miserably hot it got in that closed up car at night? Can you imagine sleeping in a car with all the windows rolled up, in the summertime, in Florida? Even being at night, it had to be absolutely unbearable!!!

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:21 PM
Even IF (HUGE if) Casey did this "unwittingly", which I think they're trying to use in place of "unintentionally" - if it was accidental, etc....even overlooking the fact that she never called 911....where is the pain, the grief, the anguish for the loss of her little girl?????? That alone tells me this was no accident. She wanted to be rid of Caylee.

Or she just didn't give a chit and decided to take advantage of it. Looking at the pictures of her at Fusion, or even wrapped up at BlockBuster with TonE, doesn't look like pain, anguish or grief to me, I don't care how differently people grieve, that ain't it, in any shape form or fashion!

yosande
11-05-2008, 09:22 PM
Casey wanted for someone to adopt her unwanted child.
Cindy would not let her do that.
Cindy would not take over the mother role.
By the way, where is the father?
This is not the only case of motherly neglect and murder.

OK, maybe someone other than Casey wouldn't have abandoned her child, but, maybe she would.

Just asking, again...
KC had a support group in JG. If she had ever wanted to give her child up, she could have. She is a grown up and she knew she had the right to do that. This defense holds no water to me whatsoever. jmo
One of the roomates of TL said TL told KC that his apartment was no place for a lttle kid. He describes Caylee pounding on a drum or something and saying wake up Nate, IIRC. Caylee was no longer welcome there, and with CA angry with her about the stealing, the timing was right, besides, Caylee was beginning to talk and tell stories. CA was going to go get custody. So many things all coming together to encourage KC to do the worst thing she has ever done. So she did. and didn't look back.

Jolynna
11-05-2008, 09:22 PM
So how does someone 'unwittingly' give a baby an overdose (or any) sedatives?

I wouldn't call putting a rag saturated with chloroform over a baby's face giving her a sedative.

I really believe that is what KC did.

cyberborg
11-05-2008, 09:23 PM
Even IF (HUGE if) Casey did this "unwittingly", which I think they're trying to use in place of "unintentionally" - if it was accidental, etc....even overlooking the fact that she never called 911....where is the pain, the grief, the anguish for the loss of her little girl?????? That alone tells me this was no accident. She wanted to be rid of Caylee. She was freaking JOYFUL that month after Caylee died!

Well said.

Janis396
11-05-2008, 09:24 PM
Or she just didn't give a chit and decided to take advantage of it. Looking at the pictures of her at Fusion, or even wrapped up at BlockBuster with TonE, doesn't look like pain, anguish or grief to me, I don't care how differently people grieve, that ain't it, in any shape form or fashion!

We still have yet to see Casey shed a tear for Caylee, for herself YES, but not one single tear for her daughter. People who accidently kill their children don't act like that.

sweetmop
11-05-2008, 09:27 PM
I felt the same way, until she had a 4hr visit from the Pastor. I'm thinking there might be a slim possibility that she confessed to him....and I do mean slim.
I could never envision Casey being honest,but I had forgot about the 4 hour visit. You just never know.
Casey is alone day in and day out in that jail cell. Maybe her thoughts of what she did to her precious child got to her. Could that be?

Lady Angler
11-05-2008, 09:28 PM
Even IF (HUGE if) Casey did this "unwittingly", which I think they're trying to use in place of "unintentionally" - if it was accidental, etc....even overlooking the fact that she never called 911....where is the pain, the grief, the anguish for the loss of her little girl?????? That alone tells me this was no accident. She wanted to be rid of Caylee. She was freaking JOYFUL that month after Caylee died!

And why are they bringing this crap up NOW? We've already been told to toss out any thoughts that she was depressed, that she gave something lethal to Caylee, and that she's nothing other than the perfect mother!

DollyPardonMe
11-05-2008, 09:29 PM
KC should get Life in prison just for disposing of Caylee's Body & acting like nothing happened - Never mind the actual act of "Killing Caylee"

Crying here...I think she should get the death penalty just for that first handful of dirt she picked up to throw on little Caylee's face. End of story!

proudgrandma
11-05-2008, 09:29 PM
I hate to even post this but does anyone think Caylee was in the trunk dying or dead when KC and AL were in Blockbuster's ?

Another thing, I didn't read this entire thread yet but, do you think the A's were told to stay away from visiting KC so maybe the attorneys could find out something in order to set up a defense case?

I don't know how the defense usually handles cases like this so just call me dumb.
:confused::confused:

Short_Stuff
11-05-2008, 09:29 PM
On the relese of the new defense paper;
I'm trying to remain calm, but I am fed up with the Anthonys lies saying Caylee was being searched alive, and I'm fed up with the defense trying to get the public to pity Casey on her mentality.
She is not mentally ill or depressed. People who are depressed are not out partying!.
She researched Choloroform online. She knew darn well what it could do to little Caylee.
Now I'm sick of this. Caylee was a human being. Where are her rights?
I hope to God TES finds her, and I hope to God justice is done for little Caylee.
But sorry I will not pity Casey.
I will pity little Caylee.

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:29 PM
We still have yet to see Casey shed a tear for Caylee, for herself YES, but not one single tear for her daughter. People who accidently kill their children don't act like that.

No they don't. IF (Big If) it was an accident and she was afraid to tell Cindy, call 911 for whatever reason, I CAN NOT see how she could appear so happy in every pic and according to every interview of her friends. She would have been beside herself.

Janis396
11-05-2008, 09:30 PM
And why are they bringing this crap up NOW? We've already been told to toss out any thoughts that she was depressed, that she gave something lethal to Caylee, and that she's nothing other than the perfect mother!

Because the search is looming....once they find Caylee, all bets are off, no negotiating or pleading charges down. They're desperate to get the DP off the table before TES finds Caylee this weekend.

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 09:31 PM
Or as another poster mentioned, chloroform causes vomiting and headaches as it wears off. Can you imagine this baby being left alone in the dark, hot trunk and coming to, sick and vomiting, while her "mother" (and I use that term loosely) is God only knows where, partying her azz off. All unwittingly of course. :furious: Absolutely heartbreaking!

This is what nightmares are made of. My kids were scared of the "Boogeyman".
Caylee's Boogeyman was her Mother. I despise KC. :mad:

Capri
11-05-2008, 09:31 PM
ok, somebody please explain to me how they can throw that out there, without admitting they know that's what she did? I mean legally, how is this a possible request?

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:31 PM
I hate to even post this but does anyone think Caylee was in the trunk dying or dead when KC and AL were in Blockbuster's ?

Another thing, I didn't read this entire thread yet but, do you think the A's were told to stay away from visiting KC so maybe the attorneys could find out something in order to set up a defense case?

I don't know how the defense usually handles cases like this so just call me dumb.
:confused::confused:

Sadly, I think that could be a possibility. Either that or in the backyard of the A's.

Janis396
11-05-2008, 09:33 PM
I hate to even post this but does anyone think Caylee was in the trunk dying or dead when KC and AL were in Blockbuster's ?

Another thing, I didn't read this entire thread yet but, do you think the A's were told to stay away from visiting KC so maybe the attorneys could find out something in order to set up a defense case?

I don't know how the defense usually handles cases like this so just call me dumb.
:confused::confused:

Bolded by me. They probably don't want any videotapes of Casey's visits with CA and GA where she acts perfectly normal. It would blow their "mental illness" attempt right out of the water.

kiki the parrot
11-05-2008, 09:35 PM
ABA Death Penalty Guidelines

As upset as everyone is getting about this document, we should all be happy to see it as it shows she is receiving competent defense, which she has a right to. The defense in a capital case is required to do certain things to make sure every avenue that would keep their defendent alive has been pursued, including investigating avenues that the client may not agree with. Mental health has to be explored, family history, all mitigating circumstances have to be submitted as to why the client should not be executed (including age if relevant). Today's filing is simply a list of scenarios, most listed on this very website, as possiblities of what could have happened to Caylee that would not warrant the DP. They are not admitting anything. Plea deals have to be explored as well and if they are not it is a possible appeal basis for the client.

(bold mine)

ITA TY Red, a voice of reason. You're exactly right they're dotting their "I's" and crossing their "T's." I need to take a deep breath. JMO GO TES

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:35 PM
This is what nightmares are made of. My kids were scared of the "Boogeyman".
Caylee's Boogeyman was her Mother. I despise KC. :mad:

I know, when I REALLY start thinking about poor Caylee in the trunk, I truly get sick to my stomach. And Casey didn't even have the decency to put her baby "mama" in there with her. Absolutely as cold hearted as a person can be IMO. I despise her too and I don't like myself for feeling that way about anyone, but I can't help it.

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 09:35 PM
Or she just didn't give a chit and decided to take advantage of it. Looking at the pictures of her at Fusion, or even wrapped up at BlockBuster with TonE, doesn't look like pain, anguish or grief to me, I don't care how differently people grieve, that ain't it, in any shape form or fashion!

Both of my parents have died, My father-in-law, several Aunts and my husbands grandmother have all died, and I loved them all, dearly and imeasurably. I grieved for all of them, at different ages and times in my life but never, not one time did I go out and party my azz off.

minazoe
11-05-2008, 09:36 PM
you know that one shot they always show on NG of Casey with JB ? the one where she has on a white bouse and she is wiping away faux tears? does anyone see even a hint of redness in her eyes? I don't even see a tear...i have watched it again and again, over and over...it's like S-Peterson's tears in his fireside interview.

no, she's a narcissistic sociopath and cannot imagine why everyone is so hysterical over some little snot nose.

mandif3
11-05-2008, 09:36 PM
I think putting Caylee in the trunk of her car is just as horrible and giving her Xanax and/or chloroform. How do you put your baby in the trunk of your car....at NIGHT....out in a PARKING LOT....in the heat of the SUMMER....and leave her, walk away and go sleep peacefully in a nice comfy bed? HOW? :furious:

I agree with you 100%. I have a daughter who is 2 and a half and she wakes up at night sometimes still. Most toddlers do, needing comfort. I tear up thinking of the terror that Caylee must have endured. Just the thought of her waking up terrified and scared is heartbreaking. KC is a rotten monster of an animal. If it was such an accident then why didn't she confess along time ago? Why plead innocent and show a complete lack of emotion? Because its all about KC. I know it is awful to say but I feel tremendous hate for this woman!!!!!!!!!!!!

yosande
11-05-2008, 09:37 PM
:clap::clap: ITA. Unless you are giving the child exactly what the Dr said to give the child, I have no compassion. A parent is responsible for the child.
And I don't know of any doc that would tell a parent it's okay to give a kid xanax or chloroform. Casey is a HIGH SCHOOL DROP OUT, she would have NO CLUE about a "safe" amt to give a child. Hellsbells, they even tell ya now not to use the OTC kid cold meds.
KC is not stupid. You make it sound like she couldn't read. lol
I do hope she was stupid enough to put her in a container that kept the animals away, so evidence is preserved, and the truth of what she did to her daughter is revealed. Caylee deserves justice. jmo

Chilly Willy
11-05-2008, 09:38 PM
We really don't know that Casey chloroformed Caylee and then put her in the trunk. That's just ONE theory.

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:39 PM
ok, somebody please explain to me how they can throw that out there, without admitting they know that's what she did? I mean legally, how is this a possible request?

Your guess is as good as mine. It was said that the defense leaked this on purpose. If that's the case, I have no idea what they hoped to accomplish.

trafficsUP66
11-05-2008, 09:39 PM
I just signed on and this is the first Caylee thread I have read, I haven't read the about it. And I have always kind of thought that perhaps it was overdose, that she was using drugs as a babysitter. But with the defense throwing this out, in a way of throwing out some scenarios and see what will stick- more than anything it is making me wonder if the truth isn't worse. I do believe though that it is a sign that the defense is about to crack.

If this was an accidental OD, they could have taken it to trial and told a heart rending story, and most likely the jurors would have seen the little girl (KC) sitting there crying, talking about her pain and confusion and she never would have gotten the DP for a story of the accidental OD. So throwing this out there, I think is a sign that it is worse. And they don't want the full story told. I also think that they really fear the TES search. Which means the place is right.

But never in my life did I suspect that it would come to this. I never thought there would be any admissions at all from the defense.

Hi Everyone!
sorry if I'm too far behind on the thread--But
Been lurking since begnning of this case and like all here, highly affected by this little baby's demise.

And, I tend to believe also that it is much worse than mere over-dose--I have an awful feeling Caylee may have fought her mother upon entering that trunk & possibly why there is such a saturation of the chloroform--having spilled it during the struggle.

I keep thinking about the "accident" the invisible nanny had--with the broken arm, laceration and supposed concussion.
The "truth" in Casey's lies?

whittymom4
11-05-2008, 09:41 PM
Because she wasn't discovered by Casey till many hour later in the trunk of her car-how do you explain that to EMS. Also, this is really gross-suppose she woke up and tried to get out and couldn't. Suppose she fought as hard as her little body could to get out of a locked trunk-how do you explain that to EMS?:furious:Burn Casey Burn:furious:

That poor baby, it breaks my heart to think of her there alone and crying, she probably cried out for hours. So where was the car? I cannot believe someone walking by wouldn't hear her.

She would be confused and scared, the sedatives could make her sick and possibly halucinate. I still think she left the pizza for Caylee to eat in case she was hungry while mom was gone and she was locked in the trunk.

The state should do to KC exactly what she did to Caylee. But not kill her, I want her to sit in jail for the rest of her pathetic life and think about what she did! And if she did it for TL what a joke...she probably thought he was going to become some famous rich DJ Rapper whatever and she would be hanging out with stars... Sorry for rambling, this just makes me so upset. :curses:

Does anyone else get tears while typing? I have went through many boxes of tissues the last few months. It is just too sad...:cry:

impatientredhead
11-05-2008, 09:42 PM
Your guess is as good as mine. It was said that the defense leaked this on purpose. If that's the case, I have no idea what they hoped to accomplish.

The demand for info in this case is so high, I would guess that it was more likely leaked by someone who had access to it while it was being processed. I don't see what the benefit to the defense to leak it would be, don't think it would be beneficial to the prosecution either. Seems more opportunistic than strategic?

Janis396
11-05-2008, 09:42 PM
I agree with you 100%. I have a daughter who is 2 and a half and she wakes up at night sometimes still. Most toddlers do, needing comfort. I tear up thinking of the terror that Caylee must have endured. Just the thought of her waking up terrified and scared is heartbreaking. KC is a rotten monster of an animal. If it was such an accident then why didn't she confess along time ago? Why plead innocent and show a complete lack of emotion? Because its all about KC. I know it is awful to say but I feel tremendous hate for this woman!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't feel bad for feeling that way, you are so not alone in it!! I feel the exact same way. She has done the worst thing a human being can do (IMO) and that is cruelly murder an innocent child, a child that trusted and loved her. And she did it in a way that guaranteed Caylee a painful, terrifying death, and she left her to die all ALONE. And they say what she did doesn't meet the standards for the DP??? Omg, it's beyond evil.

minazoe
11-05-2008, 09:43 PM
dark...very dark indeed...yes I can see that...I can visualize that.

Leila
11-05-2008, 09:43 PM
Some folks have speculated that she and Caylee slept in the car.

I think that's a very likely scenario. If she and Cindy had a big fight as has been stated, Casey was angry and stomped out of the house with Caylee with no definite plans. She couldn't go to TL's as he didn't want Caylee staying overnight at his apt. She was just plan fuming mad, and probably drove around for a while, thinking of her options. She wanted to be out from under Cindy's thumb in the worst way.

Theonly1
11-05-2008, 09:43 PM
Wasn't it court ordered?

I don't know if this was answered yet but if you look at her original docket on the theft/child neglect charges you can clearly see that two different doctors saw her (court ordered psychiatrists). It's all there if you know how to find it on the Orange County Clerk's website (my orange clerk).

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:43 PM
We really don't know that Casey chloroformed Caylee and then put her in the trunk. That's just ONE theory.

But Chilly, if she dosed her with xanax and left her in the dark, hot trunk while she partied, would that be better?

believe09
11-05-2008, 09:44 PM
If Casey gave Caylee Xanax, she did not hand her a pill and say, here honey, here is a piece of candy. Because pills are distasteful and usually bitter. And Toddlers usually won't take a pill and swallow it-so if Casey gave Caylee Xanax as we have all believed from the moment we heard the name "Zanny" then she ground it up and put it into something that her child would eat or drink. And then maybe she chloroformed her for good measure; to prevent her from waking, to make it look like a kidnapping whatever.

But she sat with her child and said, "Finish up your drink Caylee honey" or held her while she smothered her with chloroform. And then drove around with her girl in the trunk of the car.

And then went on with her life.

And if these things are true, then I feel, God please forgive me, that Casey is a waste of space. Because she had choices....tons of them. It didn't have to be this way and why couldn't she see it? Just leave Caylee with mom and dad and never come home again....

I think Cindy threw both of them out that night-I think they had their blow out and Cindy kicked them both out of her house...she said get out and don't come back for a month. And when that month was over she wanted her grandaughter back, even though she knew in her heart of hearts that something had happened to her....

JMO.

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 09:46 PM
We really don't know that Casey chloroformed Caylee and then put her in the trunk. That's just ONE theory.

According to what was presented today and the wording ,it is a well thought out theory. One that Wsers came up with a long while back. The wording doesn't say anything about a cracked skull, drowning, broken bones etc so the theories are presented by KC's defense attys.

Chilly Willy
11-05-2008, 09:47 PM
But Chilly, if she dosed her with xanax and left her in the dark, hot trunk while she partied, would that be better?
Who says she did that? We DON'T know what happened. Casey may have never been alive in that trunk. Everyone is freaking out over a unsubstantiated theory.

Theonly1
11-05-2008, 09:47 PM
LP: if we have to drain every pond and gut every gator we will find Caylee

Gator-guttin'!! WOO Friggin' WHO! :)

:clap::clap::clap:

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:48 PM
The demand for info in this case is so high, I would guess that it was more likely leaked by someone who had access to it while it was being processed. I don't see what the benefit to the defense to leak it would be, don't think it would be beneficial to the prosecution either. Seems more opportunistic than strategic?

It does to me too, but as they were talking about on NG, why would they even put this on paper? Why wasn't it discussed in private where no one could even possibly overhear? SO MANY questions in the hands down strangest case I have ever followed!

Cerenity2u
11-05-2008, 09:48 PM
I could never envision Casey being honest,but I had forgot about the 4 hour visit. You just never know.
Casey is alone day in and day out in that jail cell. Maybe her thoughts of what she did to her precious child got to her. Could that be?

As horrible as KC is, I sure would like to believe that your theory could be right. In this case, I think anything is possible. It's never too late for KC to fess up and tell someone where Caylee is. It won't change the fact that she is a monster, and she should spend the rest of her life in jail for what she did, but what it will do is save all of the valuable resources, such has manpower, time, and money being spent on the upcoming search for Caylee (God Bless Tim, TE, LP and all the volunteers). Most important, it will bring closure to all of us who love Caylee, and she will finally get to be laid to rest properly.

MD MOMMY
11-05-2008, 09:50 PM
I think Tim knows full well how most of us feel.

And I'll put money TM has felt this way at least once during this entire thing. JMO.

Theonly1
11-05-2008, 09:50 PM
That poor baby, it breaks my heart to think of her there alone and crying, she probably cried out for hours. So where was the car? I cannot believe someone walking by wouldn't hear her.

She would be confused and scared, the sedatives could make her sick and possibly halucinate. I still think she left the pizza for Caylee to eat in case she was hungry while mom was gone and she was locked in the trunk.

:


Whatever happened to Caylee I pray it was FAST and that she didn't know what was happening to her. I pray to all that is holy that child did not suffer in a dark trunk banging away on the hood to get out. Or that she did not look into the eyes of her mother when she was killed.

CaliKid
11-05-2008, 09:52 PM
As horrible as KC is, I sure would like to believe that your theory could be right. In this case, I think anything is possible. It's never too late for KC to fess up and tell someone where Caylee is. It won't change the fact that she is a monster, and she should spend the rest of her life in jail for what she did, but what it will do is save all of the valuable resources, such has manpower, time, and money being spent on the upcoming search for Caylee (God Bless Tim, TE, LP and all the volunteers). Most important, it will bring closure to all of us who love Caylee, and she will finally get to be laid to rest properly.

I'd like to believe it too, but it's more likely that KC is contemplating her whole future sitting in a jail cell and hopes her attorneys can make a deal to spring her out of jail.

Lady Angler
11-05-2008, 09:53 PM
I don't know if this was answered yet but if you look at her original docket on the theft/child neglect charges you can clearly see that two different doctors saw her (court ordered psychiatrists). It's all there if you know how to find it on the Orange County Clerk's website (my orange clerk).

You bring up a very good and forgotten point. I remember when LP got Casey out of the pokey. I was floored that she was able to pass 2 evaluations to determine her release. Had she been found to be a danger to herself or others, she would not have been released regardless, bond paid or not. This fact is also what bothered me about the protestors. Had the community just flooded the court with calls, emails and letters saying they were scared of Casey being out of jail, the court would ave considered revocation. Although we're past that, it's infuriating to think some member of the defense team wants to play the nutso card now.

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 09:53 PM
Who says she did that? We DON'T know what happened. Casey may have never been alive in that trunk. Everyone is freaking out over a unsubstantiated theory.

You're right we don't know, but this DID come from the defense, not the prosecution. Everything, well most everything IS speculation for us at this point, but it is freaking me out because it is SO HORRIFYING and coming from the defense, plus the forensics, I *believe* something like this did happen. Well, I thought it before, but now....

MD MOMMY
11-05-2008, 09:53 PM
If Casey gave Caylee Xanax, she did not hand her a pill and say, here honey, here is a piece of candy. Because pills are distasteful and usually bitter. And Toddlers usually won't take a pill and swallow it-so if Casey gave Caylee Xanax as we have all believed from the moment we heard the name "Zanny" then she ground it up and put it into something that her child would eat or drink. And then maybe she chloroformed her for good measure; to prevent her from waking, to make it look like a kidnapping whatever.

But she sat with her child and said, "Finish up your drink Caylee honey" or held her while she smothered her with chloroform. And then drove around with her girl in the trunk of the car.

And then went on with her life.

And if these things are true, then I feel, God please forgive me, that Casey is a waste of space. Because she had choices....tons of them. It didn't have to be this way and why couldn't she see it? Just leave Caylee with mom and dad and never come home again....

I think Cindy threw both of them out that night-I think they had their blow out and Cindy kicked them both out of her house...she said get out and don't come back for a month. And when that month was over she wanted her grandaughter back, even though she knew in her heart of hearts that something had happened to her....

JMO.

Bolded by me.. IMO CA knew what KC was/is capable of. If they both left that night I see KC taking Caylee out of pure spite as a barganing chip. I do not see CA kicking a 2 3/4 year old out of the house..I just don't see it at all. CA may have even said "Caylee stays here" and KC wasn't having it. JMO.

MD MOMMY
11-05-2008, 09:56 PM
You're right we don't know, but this DID come from the defense, not the prosecution. Everything, well most everything IS speculation for us at this point, but it is freaking me out because it is SO HORRIFYING and coming from the defense, plus the forensics, I *believe* something like this did happen. Well, I thought it before, but now....

Not to mention we have no idea if KC was under a Dr.'s care prior to all of this for something..I will be interested to see if anything comes out about her past mental health.

shell610
11-05-2008, 09:56 PM
I am expecting her to confess and take them to the body within the next 2 days. Not out of feeling guilty but to save her own a$$ from the death penalty.

Regardless!!!! chloroform or not, if she put Caylee in the trunk in the hot Florida heat she would have died anyway. DP is too good for her, let her suffer in jail with the general public and think about what she did until she is old and grey and on her death bed. The inmates will take care of her. She will be in *ell dead or alive.

yosande
11-05-2008, 09:57 PM
I think that's a very likely scenario. If she and Cindy had a big fight as has been stated, Casey was angry and stomped out of the house with Caylee with no definite plans. She couldn't go to TL's as he didn't want Caylee staying overnight at his apt. She was just plan fuming mad, and probably drove around for a while, thinking of her options. She wanted to be out from under Cindy's thumb in the worst way.
I don't believe KC slept in an uncomfortable car seat, ever, at any time, but I hear those jail cots aren't comfy and warm.

Chilly Willy
11-05-2008, 09:59 PM
Bolded by me.. IMO CA knew what KC was/is capable of. If they both left that night I see KC taking Caylee out of pure spite as a barganing chip. I do not see CA kicking a 2 3/4 year old out of the house..I just don't see it at all. CA may have even said "Caylee stays here" and KC wasn't having it. JMO.
I agree with you completely. No way would Cindy have willingly allowed Casey to move out and take Caylee with her.

Chilly Willy
11-05-2008, 10:00 PM
You're right we don't know, but this DID come from the defense, not the prosecution. Everything, well most everything IS speculation for us at this point, but it is freaking me out because it is SO HORRIFYING and coming from the defense, plus the forensics, I *believe* something like this did happen. Well, I thought it before, but now....

The possibility of a chloroform overdose came from the defense, but nothing about Caylee being alive in a car trunk. We shouldn't jump to horrible conclusions.

Capri
11-05-2008, 10:06 PM
I agree with you completely. No way would Cindy have willingly allowed Casey to move out and take Caylee with her.

Unless she went to Lee's just for the night, Cindy might have agreed to that. It's in phone ping distance too.

kiki the parrot
11-05-2008, 10:08 PM
The possibility of a chloroform overdose came from the defense, but nothing about Caylee being alive in a car trunk. We shouldn't jump to horrible conclusions.

ITA TY Another voice of reason... (I will pass my oxygen mask...) JMO

Pondering Mind
11-05-2008, 10:08 PM
I agree with you completely. No way would Cindy have willingly allowed Casey to move out and take Caylee with her.

I don't think Cindy could have stopped her unless DFSS (or whatever it's called in Florida) was already involved. I am a guardian ad litem in S.C. and have had to deal with similar situations. She couldn't just say, No, you are not taking her without some kind of history, which Cindy said there was not.

Angel Who Cares
11-05-2008, 10:09 PM
Who says she did that? We DON'T know what happened. Casey may have never been alive in that trunk. Everyone is freaking out over a unsubstantiated theory.

But isn't the majority of what is posted a theory? That is what we r doing is bouncing ideas from each other back & forth! JMHO Except for docs etc. that are fact aren't theory! Re-visiting past subject matter r theories helps when new media reports come out. It also helps those who are new or those who haven't finished reading every thread. A lot that was brought up tonight DO point to a lot of theories that you & many fellow WS's have brilliantly posted.

God Bless TES & all of the volunteers!:blowkiss::clap:

Caylee Angel We are Trying Are Hardest To Find You! :blowkiss::angel:
You Are Loved By So Many People In The World!:grouphug::blowkiss:

Thinaire
11-05-2008, 10:13 PM
I think that's a very likely scenario. If she and Cindy had a big fight as has been stated, Casey was angry and stomped out of the house with Caylee with no definite plans. She couldn't go to TL's as he didn't want Caylee staying overnight at his apt. She was just plan fuming mad, and probably drove around for a while, thinking of her options. She wanted to be out from under Cindy's thumb in the worst way.

I remember the early reports of the fight being overheard by one of the neighbors...and also they stated that the fights at other times were loud.

A child gets so upset when adults fight that no doubt Caylee was crying and out of control also..just a theory...but being taken away by an angry KC from home and GP's...KC took her rage out on Caylee.

I surmise that Amy was possibly chloroformed by KC...and it was present because it was a double use tool for KC...use it to steal from those around her, and knock out her child quickly. I buy into the Xanax theory also...easily gotten.

Agree Leila...she either drove around the general vicinity of her house and Lee's, or wherever it was her friend said was KC's "place" to go...near the cell tower range.

In any case, someone in that family needs to step up and be a HUMAN being...

CaliKid
11-05-2008, 10:14 PM
We know that Caylee was DEAD in that trunk. We know that the last hours of her life, if she was chloroformed, were terrible. That she probably wondered why this woman who was supposed to love her was hurting her. It doesn't matter if she died in the car or not.

MD MOMMY
11-05-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't think Cindy could have stopped her unless DFSS (or whatever it's called in Florida) was already involved. I am a guardian ad litem in S.C. and have had to deal with similar situations. She couldn't just say, No, you are not taking her without some kind of history, which Cindy said there was not.

The post that we were referring to is the one that someone says they think possibly CA kicked Caylee and KC out of the house. We were saying we think CA put up a fight about KC taking Caylee. We were not saying there was anything she could do legally or otherwise to make KC leave Caylee behind. CA could certainly tell KC that she wasn't taking Caylee, KC just didn't by law have to listen. JMO.

galvino
11-05-2008, 10:17 PM
I still can't get past the earlier computer searches for chloroform-That shows some sort of pre-meditation, not just being pizzed at parents, storming out and searching for a way to knock your child out to sleep- the chloro would have already had to have been 'made'!

Chilly Willy
11-05-2008, 10:20 PM
I still can't get past the earlier computer searches for chloroform-That shows some sort of pre-meditation, not just being pizzed at parents, storming out and searching for a way to knock your child out to sleep- the chloro would have already had to have been 'made'!

From what LP said on NG, the only reason Casey used Chloroform was because she left her Xanax behind when she left the house.

believe09
11-05-2008, 10:21 PM
Bolded by me.. IMO CA knew what KC was/is capable of. If they both left that night I see KC taking Caylee out of pure spite as a barganing chip. I do not see CA kicking a 2 3/4 year old out of the house..I just don't see it at all. CA may have even said "Caylee stays here" and KC wasn't having it. JMO.

What plays in my head, MD, is Cindy's early statements about "I was giving them time to bond.." and things of that nature. There is something in that statement that my mind goes back too-like she feels guilty for letting Casey keep Caylee from her for that length of time (31 days), or those were the words she used when she last saw them...I am not being clear I know.

I know women like Casey with children...ok not exactly like Casey clearly, but I can envision a frustrated parent or parents saying look, it is time you grew up and took care of yourself and your child. Tough love, it is time to get out and find out what it is really like to parent and work etc....

But, because of something fundamentally wrong with Casey, instead of her crawling back to her parents with an "oh I am sorry, come rescue me" she killed her child and went on her way free as air.

George and Cindy might have actually started to believe that Casey was getting her life together and then as time went on and no Caylee anywhere, they had to start to wonder. jmo.

galvino
11-05-2008, 10:22 PM
From what LP said on NG, the only reason Casey used Chloroform was because she left her Xanax behind when she left the house.

Yeah- but she still had to google how to make it, make it, have it 'on hand'...it's not like she could pop in to CVS and pick some up because she left the house in a huff!

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 10:23 PM
ITA TY Another voice of reason... (I will pass my oxygen mask...) JMO

I'm gonna pass on the O2 but would love:drink: and a ciggie. My nerves are fried.:nerves:

impatientredhead
11-05-2008, 10:24 PM
What plays in my head, MD, is Cindy's early statements about "I was giving them time to bond.." and things of that nature. There is something in that statement that my mind goes back too-like she feels guilty for letting Casey keep Caylee from her for that length of time (31 days), or those were the words she used when she last saw them...I am not being clear I know.

I know women like Casey with children...ok not exactly like Casey clearly, but I can envision a frustrated parent or parents saying look, it is time you grew up and took care of yourself and your child. Tough love, it is time to get out and find out what it is really like to parent and work etc....

But, because of something fundamentally wrong with Casey, instead of her crawling back to her parents with an "oh I am sorry, come rescue me" she killed her child and went on her way free as air.

George and Cindy might have actually started to believe that Casey was getting her life together and then as time went on and no Caylee anywhere, they had to start to wonder. jmo.


Yep, I think Cindy planned to file for custody but knew the way things were she would really have no justification to do so. So she had to let Casey try to do things on her own, Cindy would document each and every failure to use against her in court, but things completely blew up in her face.

Chilly Willy
11-05-2008, 10:25 PM
Yeah- but she still had to google how to make it, make it, have it 'on hand'...it's not like she could pop in to CVS and pick some up because she left the house in a huff!

I agree, it's not something a person just happens to carry around in their purse. However, in LP's theory, the chloroform was used only because Xanax was not available - meaning the computer searches do not show premeditation.

Thinaire
11-05-2008, 10:25 PM
I still can't get past the earlier computer searches for chloroform-That shows some sort of pre-meditation, not just being pizzed at parents, storming out and searching for a way to knock your child out to sleep- the chloro would have already had to have been 'made'!

Thats why I think KC had already used it before...on Amy to steal from her. You sure would not need much in a small closed bottle.

It reminds me of when George stated that there was a bottle of "cleaning fluid" in the trunk...anything these people say after weeks of lies and outright crazy statements makes my hink meter go nuts.

Was George going to try and answer ahead of time for a bottle of "cleaning fluid?"

galvino
11-05-2008, 10:29 PM
I agree, it's nothing something a person just happens to carry around in their purse. However, in LP's theory, the chloroform was used only because Xanax was not available - meaning the computer searches do not show premeditation.


Then why the heck were the searches on the computer? That smacks of at LEAST premeditation of drugging her daughter... I doubt KC was looking that up so she could enter a project in the local hs Science Fair!

cocoamom
11-05-2008, 10:29 PM
Sorry if already posted but I think this "leaked" because they know (GA's behavior last week staring into the woods, CA's post on her site, etc) that we will find Caylee this weekend. They know where we are searching and know thousands of people will show up! They know we are close! They are scared so they are trying to take the sting/shock out of the announcement by the press when TES or LE tells them WE FOUND HER!!

PS Xanax, Chloroform, whatever - to purchase either one, think about giving either to Caylee for ANY reason takes minutes at the least, not seconds. Computer searches, opening the bottle, finding cloth to pour on, etc. Premeditated!! Something not premeditated seems to me to be an immediate accident - like I dropped my bottle of pills and didn't clean it up right away and she got into them while I was in the bathroom staring at my "hot body". I bet she mixed Xanax in juice (or KOOL-AID) to get her to drink it!

MD MOMMY
11-05-2008, 10:31 PM
What plays in my head, MD, is Cindy's early statements about "I was giving them time to bond.." and things of that nature. There is something in that statement that my mind goes back too-like she feels guilty for letting Casey keep Caylee from her for that length of time (31 days), or those were the words she used when she last saw them...I am not being clear I know.

jmo.

I guess I look back to how long supposedly KC stole from her family. I don't see anyone putting up with that unless there is a darned good reason. I think that reason was Caylee. I see KC using Caylee as a poker chip to her parents. I think CA knew full well what KC was capable of. I firmly believe the comment by RP in his interview about CA saying KC was a sociopath. GA admitted that he thought something was fishy about her job. IMO they all walked on egg shells around her for one reason..that being Caylee. JMO.

Janis396
11-05-2008, 10:31 PM
Then why the heck were the searches on the computer? That smacks of at LEAST premeditation of drugging her daughter... I doubt KC was looking that up so she could enter a project in the local hs Science Fair!

Hahhaaaa! Good one :clap:

galvino
11-05-2008, 10:33 PM
Gloria Allred (and her 'pins') really gets on my nerves most of the time, but I agree with her tonite.

galvino
11-05-2008, 10:34 PM
Hahhaaaa! Good one :clap:


Especially since she dropped out of HS---- maybe for 4H and the State Fair. Gawp!!!! :crazy:

Janis396
11-05-2008, 10:37 PM
Especially since she dropped out of HS---- maybe for 4H and the State Fair. Gawp!!!! :crazy:

I was going to say that, too! But I got tired of being told there's a chance she pretended she graduated and the A's were none the wiser...yeah, right, whatever!!!! I try and live in the real world, ya know?

tx_Dot
11-05-2008, 10:39 PM
That would contradict the popular theory that Casey killed Caylee on the evening of the 15th and then spent the night at Lee's.

I don't think KC spent the night @ Lee's.....I think she spent the night (15th)in her car, close by, texting, talking to Tony most of the night.......prolly drugged Caylee so she would sleep & not make noise........the early call from the A's house was CA calling KC after the big fight from the night before.

Capri
11-05-2008, 10:39 PM
well if the A's defense team were leaking this to see how it would go over...I'd say they might want to go back and rethink it.

Janis396
11-05-2008, 10:42 PM
I don't think KC spent the night @ Lee's.....I think she spent the night (15th)in her car, close by, texting, talking to Tony most of the night.......prolly drugged Caylee so she would sleep & not make noise........the early call from the A's house was CA calling KC after the big fight from the night before.

Yep, that's exactly what I think happened, too. In Lee's interview, he even said Casey would park near the house and stake it out, watching for when her parents came and went. That's why the pings indicate she was at "home" that night.

MD MOMMY
11-05-2008, 10:45 PM
Yep, that's exactly what I think happened, too. In Lee's interview, he even said Casey would park near the house and stake it out, watching for when her parents came and went. That's why the pings indicate she was at "home" that night.

Agree..I don't think she was in the home that night. KC has to much pride, if true, to have her mother strangle her and stay in that house..no way. I even think she has to much pride to stay in that house after being confronted about anything she didn't feel like dealing with. JMO.

Jolynna
11-05-2008, 10:46 PM
We know that Caylee was DEAD in that trunk. We know that the last hours of her life, if she was chloroformed, were terrible. That she probably wondered why this woman who was supposed to love her was hurting her. It doesn't matter if she died in the car or not.

I think most of us are hoping Caylee died painlessly. Being alive in the car trunk means Caylee was scared and suffered for a length of time.

Personally, I think the chloroform did what Casey intended for it to do. I think Caylee was dead before going in the trunk.

Maybe the defense anticipates if Caylee is found her hair will show evidence of the chloroform. It is kinda hard to say the nanny did it when your client's computer turns of searches for how to make chloroform.

distracted
11-05-2008, 10:47 PM
Then why the heck were the searches on the computer? That smacks of at LEAST premeditation of drugging her daughter... I doubt KC was looking that up so she could enter a project in the local hs Science Fair!

And if those searches took place in the middle of May, as they have been hinted to have occurred, then it most definitely is premeditation.

The date of those searches is key here. She cannot deny or excuse them.

okiedokietoo
11-05-2008, 10:47 PM
I agree, it's not something a person just happens to carry around in their purse. However, in LP's theory, the chloroform was used only because Xanax was not available - meaning the computer searches do not show premeditation.
I don't know - there might be a fine line there if she was looking for chloroform online and knew how dangerous it was from the warnings on the websites and then used the chloroform because of not having Xanax -

tx_Dot
11-05-2008, 10:48 PM
Allred - if it WAS an accident as they now claim, why no 911 call? Why no call for help? That's a huge problem for them to overcome.


Hmmmm..........will the next defense 'bombshell' explain how someone *accidently* searched Chloroform on KC's computer ???

Im On It
11-05-2008, 10:50 PM
So how does someone 'unwittingly' give a baby an overdose (or any) sedatives?

Probably wasn't the first time she gave Caylee a sedative, and the poor thing must've built up a tolerance...a little more, a little more, a little more...then this. Nancy Grace isn't the only one who isn't trying to curse tonight.:furious:

Janis396
11-05-2008, 10:51 PM
Hmmmm..........will the next defense 'bombshell' explain how someone *accidently* searched Chloroform on KC's computer ???

Well, according to Kobi, you can "accidently" even make a batch of chloroform and not even know it!

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 10:53 PM
Thats why I think KC had already used it before...on Amy to steal from her. You sure would not need much in a small closed bottle.

It reminds me of when George stated that there was a bottle of "cleaning fluid" in the trunk...anything these people say after weeks of lies and outright crazy statements makes my hink meter go nuts.

Was George going to try and answer ahead of time for a bottle of "cleaning fluid?"

Amy's "sleepwalking" and the missing money and complete change of clothes when she "woke" up? I remeber that. Hinkey meters goin' like a fan.

DotsEyes
11-05-2008, 10:54 PM
ABA Death Penalty Guidelines

As upset as everyone is getting about this document, we should all be happy to see it as it shows she is receiving competent defense, which she has a right to. The defense in a capital case is required to do certain things to make sure every avenue that would keep their defendent alive has been pursued, including investigating avenues that the client may not agree with. Mental health has to be explored, family history, all mitigating circumstances have to be submitted as to why the client should not be executed (including age if relevant). Today's filing is simply a list of scenarios, most listed on this very website, as possiblities of what could have happened to Caylee that would not warrant the DP. They are not admitting anything. Plea deals have to be explored as well and if they are not it is a possible appeal basis for the client.

You saved me a post. Thanks.

galvino
11-05-2008, 10:55 PM
OK Ya'll-

I am really PRAYING that Tim & TES find this precious baby- not only does she need to be found and brought to rest, but I am so SICK to death of all of the spin and carp going on. The only way to stop madness (at least part of it) is to find her. I'd rather argue motive, means and opportunity than the remote possibilities the defense and family are throwing out there!

galvino
11-05-2008, 10:57 PM
Well, according to Kobi, you can "accidently" even make a batch of chloroform and not even know it!

Yeah- I did that when I peed in my diaper and then went swimming in the pool!

tx_Dot
11-05-2008, 10:57 PM
Yep, that's exactly what I think happened, too. In Lee's interview, he even said Casey would park near the house and stake it out, watching for when her parents came and went. That's why the pings indicate she was at "home" that night.


Wonder if LE has re-checked the "secret place" that Kio took them to ?? It's not too far away, might be a lot of evidence there, left by one person that waits there until her parents leave the house.

Thinaire
11-05-2008, 10:57 PM
Amy's "sleepwalking" and the missing money and complete change of clothes when she "woke" up? I remeber that. Hinkey meters goin' like a fan.

KC did claim she was an "event PLANNER!" :)

Thinaire
11-05-2008, 10:59 PM
Wonder if LE has re-checked the "secret place" that Kio took them to ?? It's not too far away, might be a lot of evidence there, left by one person that waits there until her parents leave the house.

YES, and you can run through alot of gas staying in the car and idling waiting for a place to go...or back into the parents house after they leave.

txsvicki
11-05-2008, 11:00 PM
I don't know where LP comes up with his ideas, but it doesn't make much sense to make someone sleep all night in a trunk with chloroform just because they don't have any pills. Chloroform would be used to kill a person instead of wanting to knock them out for hours and hours with it.

Jolynna
11-05-2008, 11:03 PM
From what LP said on NG, the only reason Casey used Chloroform was because she left her Xanax behind when she left the house.

You don't have to make Benedryl.

But that wouldn't have solved Casey's dilemna of what to do with Caylee every night after June 16 when she wanted to play "wife" with Tony.

I disagree with LP's accident theory. Casey wasn't even rattled when she and Tony were at Blockbuster.

I think Caylee's murder was planned.

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 11:04 PM
Sorry if already posted but I think this "leaked" because they know (GA's behavior last week staring into the woods, CA's post on her site, etc) that we will find Caylee this weekend. They know where we are searching and know thousands of people will show up! They know we are close! They are scared so they are trying to take the sting/shock out of the announcement by the press when TES or LE tells them WE FOUND HER!!

PS Xanax, Chloroform, whatever - to purchase either one, think about giving either to Caylee for ANY reason takes minutes at the least, not seconds. Computer searches, opening the bottle, finding cloth to pour on, etc. Premeditated!! Something not premeditated seems to me to be an immediate accident - like I dropped my bottle of pills and didn't clean it up right away and she got into them while I was in the bathroom staring at my "hot body". I bet she mixed Xanax in juice (or KOOL-AID) to get her to drink it!

Be safe this weekend. I will shoot some prayers your way, better folks than me are prayin' for ya'll so I know you will be in good hands. Just wanted you to know me and mine will be thinking about all of you and hoping for the best.
PS I agree with your quote.

cyberborg
11-05-2008, 11:05 PM
:laugh:
Well, according to Kobi, you can "accidently" even make a batch of chloroform and not even know it!
:rocker:

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 11:07 PM
Yeah- I did that when I peed in my diaper and then went swimming in the pool!

Don't cha just hate it when that happens, and then you pass out and you wake up, all your friends are standin' around laughing at you laying there in your wet diaper all hopped up on chloroform.

Yea right Kobi.

Thinaire
11-05-2008, 11:07 PM
I don't know where LP comes up with his ideas, but it doesn't make much sense to make someone sleep all night in a trunk with chloroform just because they don't have any pills. Chloroform would be used to kill a person instead of wanting to knock them out for hours and hours with it.

I don't know either TX Vicki...I kind of listen to LP and file it in the unknown file...he may know more, have better sources, but his statements in the past have been pretty out there at times.

I see KC, if there was a fight, using chloroform in a RAGE to quiet a crying, possibly hysterical little girl that was upset witnessing a huge fight and being yanked out of her home. Or sadder even, hurt by her mother to the point that she could not stop crying.

It was already in her mind re: the computer searches (guessing here) about missing kids...so rage made it possible to take that next step.

Jolynna
11-05-2008, 11:07 PM
I guess I look back to how long supposedly KC stole from her family. I don't see anyone putting up with that unless there is a darned good reason. I think that reason was Caylee. I see KC using Caylee as a poker chip to her parents. I think CA knew full well what KC was capable of. I firmly believe the comment by RP in his interview about CA saying KC was a sociopath. GA admitted that he thought something was fishy about her job. IMO they all walked on egg shells around her for one reason..that being Caylee. JMO.

I 100% agree.

distracted
11-05-2008, 11:07 PM
ABA Death Penalty Guidelines

As upset as everyone is getting about this document, we should all be happy to see it as it shows she is receiving competent defense, which she has a right to. The defense in a capital case is required to do certain things to make sure every avenue that would keep their defendent alive has been pursued, including investigating avenues that the client may not agree with. Mental health has to be explored, family history, all mitigating circumstances have to be submitted as to why the client should not be executed (including age if relevant). Today's filing is simply a list of scenarios, most listed on this very website, as possiblities of what could have happened to Caylee that would not warrant the DP. They are not admitting anything. Plea deals have to be explored as well and if they are not it is a possible appeal basis for the client.

Thank you for this.

cyberborg
11-05-2008, 11:07 PM
You don't have to make Benedryl.

But that wouldn't have solved Casey's dilemna of what to do with Caylee every night after June 16 when she wanted to play "wife" with Tony.

I disagree with LP's accident theory. Casey wasn't even rattled when she and Tony were at Blockbuster.

I think Caylee's murder was planned.

ITA. :bang:

tx_Dot
11-05-2008, 11:08 PM
YES, and you can run through alot of gas staying in the car and idling waiting for a place to go...or back into the parents house after they leave.

LOL.....I don't think KC *buys* much gas.....Truth be known, prolly the 4 gal. she stole friday (20th) was the same gas that ran out on friday (27th).

butwhatif?
11-05-2008, 11:08 PM
And if those searches took place in the middle of May, as they have been hinted to have occurred, then it most definitely is premeditation.

The date of those searches is key here. She cannot deny or excuse them.

Not if she says she wanted the chloroform for another reason- for partying, sex, to cure herpes(thats my favourite ;))
The context of the search is important. If she just googled 'how to make chloroform' then it could go either way. But if it was more specific, like 'how much to give a 2yr old', or 'effects of chloroform on children' or the search before that was how to sedate a child etc- then that would definately show premeditation...JMO

Thinaire
11-05-2008, 11:09 PM
Don't cha just hate it when that happens, and then you pass out and you wake up, all your friends are standin' around laughing at you laying there in your wet diaper all hopped up on chloroform.

Yea right Kobi.

Then the zombie squirrels are crawling all over your car as the dead bodies are dropping from the sky? :crazy: Don't know about y'all but in our small town its happens every night...

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 11:13 PM
Then the zombie squirrels are crawling all over your car as the dead bodies are dropping from the sky? :crazy: Don't know about y'all but in our small town its happens every night...

Apparently, it happens in Or-lawn-doe too.

ExpectingUnicorns
11-05-2008, 11:13 PM
This is what I've anticipated 'from Day One.' I've asked over and over, HOW CAN THE DEFENSE DEFEND AGAINST PREMEDITATION W/OUT ADMITTING TO AN ACCIDENT? Here, it seems, is our answer. JMO

You have been consistent. Now, I believe with you!

essies
11-05-2008, 11:18 PM
Amy's "sleepwalking" and the missing money and complete change of clothes when she "woke" up? I remeber that. Hinkey meters goin' like a fan.

Ya know I've often wondered why Amy had a change of clothes on when she woke up. Do you think Casey actually put a rag over her face or maybe put a crushed up Xanax in her drink. So many, many why's in this case- just hope we get an answer to most of them. But, I'm sure years from now there will still be elements to Miss Casey and her choices in life that will baffle us.:waitasec:

ExpectingUnicorns
11-05-2008, 11:22 PM
:crazy: Only problem is that in the end all you are left with are dirty hands and the smell.

. . . and hopefully, the truth!

momMass713
11-05-2008, 11:22 PM
Does anyone think that if KC did use chloroform to sedate Caylee and then left the rag in the trunk she did not realize the rag would kill her. But then again I have heard nothing of a rag in the trunk, unless she got rid of it, only high levels of chloroform in the trunk. I still think Caylee suffered and I cannot deal with the last days of this precious child.

magic-cat
11-05-2008, 11:22 PM
So how does someone 'unwittingly' give a baby an overdose (or any) sedatives?

PRECISELY! Uh, what were you doing giving a TWO YEAR OLD BABY sedatives, and that is PLURAL, not SINGULAR as in ONE??? Did Caylee have a 'scrip for Xanex Casey, or did you or someone that you knew? How is it that Caylee managed to ingest and overdose on MULTIPLE sedatives? Where were you? Did you lay them out on her plate with her LUNCH that day? Or did you crush them up for her in her SIPPY CUP? I knew that you had drugged her and over-dosed her! I knew it! But it was not this ACCIDENT that you are now CLAIMING to save your hide. You gave her too much on purpose and you know it and we all know it, and I pray to God that they DO seek the death penalty in your case, even if you do not get sentenced to it in the end, JUST SO YOU WILL KNOW what it is like to have the POTENTIAL of YOUR life ending SOON so you will have a CLUE what it IS that you have robbed Caylee of. Her future is gone and yours should be as well. So was it after you gave her the chocolate milk and Xanex COCKTAIL that you placed the chloroform soaked rag over her face and sent her into eternity? Did you even make sure she was DEAD before you put her in the trunk? You SICKEN me and I hope against all odds that something OF Caylee is found in this upcoming search so you can be proven to be the monster that I already KNOW that you are!:furious:

distracted
11-05-2008, 11:25 PM
Not if she says she wanted the chloroform for another reason- for partying, sex, to cure herpes(thats my favourite ;))
The context of the search is important. If she just googled 'how to make chloroform' then it could go either way. But if it was more specific, like 'how much to give a 2yr old', or 'effects of chloroform on children' or the search before that was how to sedate a child etc- then that would definately show premeditation...JMO

I don't think the context is a deal breaker because they found chloroform in the trunk. Had they not, it would definitely matter.

strach304
11-05-2008, 11:31 PM
I could never envision Casey being honest,but I had forgot about the 4 hour visit. You just never know.
Casey is alone day in and day out in that jail cell. Maybe her thoughts of what she did to her precious child got to her. Could that be?

Casey's only concern or thoughts are about her own a$$. Her lawyer has been feeding her a load of "they have no evidence" "don't say a word to anyone about anything" I'll get you out of here, etc. Yeah, ask Scott Peterson how well all that worked. His only regret is that he got caught imo Casey is the same.

karenmamo
11-05-2008, 11:38 PM
That would contradict the popular theory that Casey killed Caylee on the evening of the 15th and then spent the night at Lee's.

Link, please? :)

Truthwillsetufree
11-05-2008, 11:42 PM
Ya know I've often wondered why Amy had a change of clothes on when she woke up. Do you think Casey actually put a rag over her face or maybe put a crushed up Xanax in her drink. So many, many why's in this case- just hope we get an answer to most of them. But, I'm sure years from now there will still be elements to Miss Casey and her choices in life that will baffle us.:waitasec:

Xanax wouldn't affect a person as to not waking up,remembering changing clothes etc. Folks make Xanax out like some big knock out drug, it isn't. The younger crowd like it because it enhances the effects of alcohol. It is highly addictive. Some people take this on a daily basis to treat anxiety disorders or panic attacks, so I don't believe KC was giving Amy Xanax. I might believe chloroform, as the things I have read, it will "Knock you out". Now, giving it to a 2 3/4 year old, different story. The information states to NEVER give Xanax to a child under 18 years of age. JMO.

http://www.drugs.com/xanax.html

strach304
11-05-2008, 11:48 PM
You're right we don't know, but this DID come from the defense, not the prosecution. Everything, well most everything IS speculation for us at this point, but it is freaking me out because it is SO HORRIFYING and coming from the defense, plus the forensics, I *believe* something like this did happen. Well, I thought it before, but now....

It makes sense since they are getting more discovery from the prosecution. They now know that there is evidence Caylee was in the trunk dead and the chloroform searches and whatever else investigators have uncovered. That's why that particular scenario was included?

Bree0372
11-06-2008, 12:10 AM
Not if she says she wanted the chloroform for another reason- for partying, sex, to cure herpes(thats my favourite ;))
The context of the search is important. If she just googled 'how to make chloroform' then it could go either way. But if it was more specific, like 'how much to give a 2yr old', or 'effects of chloroform on children' or the search before that was how to sedate a child etc- then that would definately show premeditation...JMO

I remember at one point it was said that she searched for "uses of chloroform". :mad:

shotzie
11-06-2008, 12:11 AM
Do you think the Defense got the documents early and it showed how much evidence LE has to prove how Caylee died, that's when the Death Penalty Lawyer got involved and knew he had to start the BS about Casey being bi-polar, depressed or whatever they are going to say.
and was it a Rumor Baez is off the case?

If they don't go after that DP ;I will be :furious: just thinking of poor Caylee in a Trunk is frightening, then whatever else Casey did. It sickens me. She needs to pay.

Then take Cindy and put in jail for all the obstruction she has done, since Lying is a Crime Cindy.


Please get Justice for Caylee and bring her body home for a burial.

RIP Caylee

TURBOTHINK
11-06-2008, 12:13 AM
Xanax wouldn't affect a person as to not waking up,remembering changing clothes etc. Folks make Xanax out like some big knock out drug, it isn't. The younger crowd like it because it enhances the effects of alcohol. It is highly addictive. Some people take this on a daily basis to treat anxiety disorders or panic attacks, so I don't believe KC was giving Amy Xanax. I might believe chloroform, as the things I have read, it will "Knock you out". Now, giving it to a 2 3/4 year old, different story. The information states to NEVER give Xanax to a child under 18 years of age. JMO.

http://www.drugs.com/xanax.html

She could have also used one of the date rape drugs. They flow like candy in clubs.

TURBOTHINK
11-06-2008, 12:22 AM
Kobi: this is legal strategy but they didn't need to put it in writing

He sees his "expert" fees for court going down the drain.

TURBOTHINK
11-06-2008, 12:26 AM
It's pretty damn obvious that the Baez Law Firm has no internal communication. One attorney finally points to Caylee being dead by the accidental hand of an over depressed and oversexual young mother while another lawyer states Caylee is alive.

Pass around that Zanax bottle- we're all going to need one.

While their PR man (Todd Black) talks about a dead Caylee.

This is the best example of the right hand not knowing what the left was doing as I have ever seen.

LetJusticePrevail
11-06-2008, 12:28 AM
Can anyone confirm if I'm correct in that, the prosecution has to reveal whether they're seeking the death penalty by 11/24. That was in NG's show intro and I thought the announcer said 11/24.

Truthwillsetufree
11-06-2008, 12:28 AM
She could have also used one of the date rape drugs. They flow like candy in clubs.

Yes, Rohypnol (sp) Ruffies, I hear are easily available in some club scenes.

EasyGruuvin
11-06-2008, 12:54 AM
No matter who it is..I cannot honestly see KC honestly telling anyone anything!!! I think the lawyers may have figured it out, but the truth coming from KC..I don't think so

Perhaps she confessed to the clergyman who visited her recently ? Do you think he possibly said the right things to get her to tell him ?

Unsolved
11-06-2008, 01:11 AM
Can anyone confirm if I'm correct in that, the prosecution has to reveal whether they're seeking the death penalty by 11/24. That was in NG's show intro and I thought the announcer said 11/24.

Yes, in the written transcript of tonights NG show, it does say 11/24:

The clock ticking down on the state`s announcement whether the death penalty will be sought, deadline November 24

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/05/ng.01.html

nancy botwin
11-06-2008, 01:18 AM
Does anyone think that if KC did use chloroform to sedate Caylee and then left the rag in the trunk she did not realize the rag would kill her. But then again I have heard nothing of a rag in the trunk, unless she got rid of it, only high levels of chloroform in the trunk. I still think Caylee suffered and I cannot deal with the last days of this precious child.

I do think the rag theory is very plausible. I've always believed there's a pretty good chance Casey put Caylee in the trunk and/or drugged her without actually premeditating/intending to cause her death. Even if Casey believes this sort of scenario is an "accident," the law does not. It's still Murder 1, and rightfully so, IMO.

EasyGruuvin
11-06-2008, 01:23 AM
LP: if we have to drain every pond and gut every gator we will find Caylee

That IS what he said and it made me ill, but the sad fact is, it could be what actually happened to little Caylee , I have feared this all along ,
God bless the child..

EasyGruuvin
11-06-2008, 01:28 AM
Then you missed my laugh of the night.

When NG massages Kobe's ego by bogusly saying something about him posessing the power and the intellect to refute the evidence-- and he "humbly" says "yes" while tipping his glasses up to acknowledge her "flattery".

Priceless! LMAO.

Cracked me up ! That made my day , he was beaming....

Cara's Mom
11-06-2008, 01:46 AM
Accidental? After you deliberately buy or make chloroform?

SommerSunshine
11-06-2008, 01:52 AM
That poor baby, it breaks my heart to think of her there alone and crying, she probably cried out for hours. So where was the car? I cannot believe someone walking by wouldn't hear her.

She would be confused and scared, the sedatives could make her sick and possibly halucinate. I still think she left the pizza for Caylee to eat in case she was hungry while mom was gone and she was locked in the trunk.

The state should do to KC exactly what she did to Caylee. But not kill her, I want her to sit in jail for the rest of her pathetic life and think about what she did! And if she did it for TL what a joke...she probably thought he was going to become some famous rich DJ Rapper whatever and she would be hanging out with stars... Sorry for rambling, this just makes me so upset. :curses:

Does anyone else get tears while typing? I have went through many boxes of tissues the last few months. It is just too sad...:cry:

Bolded by me. Sorry; I'm so far behind on this thread. The answer is yes. In fact I'm sitting here on the couch fighting back tears so my husband won't think I'm crazy. I have a 2 1/2 year old, and just the thought of anything like this at all makes me want to curl up in bed and cry for hours. I can't wait to hug him in the morning.

Cara's Mom
11-06-2008, 01:55 AM
Are they trying for a PPD defense also? That is pure BS.

Personally, if anyone was going to have PPD it should have been me. My first kid had colic for 3 months. She cried from 10am to 10pm every day. I spent 3 months in a rocking chair with her. by the end of each day, I could easily have pulled all my hair out. I did not have the support system that she had.

Wow, we have lived the same life! I was at my wits end and I too, lacked the support and I got through it-no PPD here!

Mom of Five
11-06-2008, 02:03 AM
QUOTE=Truthwillsetufree;2905512]Don't cha just hate it when that happens, and then you pass out and you wake up, all your friends are standin' around laughing at you laying there in your wet diaper all hopped up on chloroform.

Yea right Kobi.[/QUOTE]

:smiley4:[ :clap::clap:

butwhatif?
11-06-2008, 02:09 AM
Yes, in the written transcript of tonights NG show, it does say 11/24:

The clock ticking down on the state`s announcement whether the death penalty will be sought, deadline November 24

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0811/05/ng.01.html

Thanks for the link...there is some really interesting stuff in there.
One thing has me scratching my head yet again.....

GRACE: Come on. It`s out there. I`ve got it right here, quotes from the memo where they actually say -- first of all, they talk about her risky behavior, a string of relationships with men, spending money she didn`t have, writing bad checks. And they go on to say an unwitting overdose of sedatives may have resulted in Caylee`s death? After they`ve led police on a wild goose chase, lambasted them for not searching for Caylee alive, and now we get this?

Are they talking about the Amy checks?
Didnt she plead not guilty to the fraud charges? If this is in the memo her attys are admitting her guilt while putting in a not guilty plea.:waitasec:
I know Kc used CA's credit cards, but did she use her checkbook too? Did she ever have her own checkbook?
I want that memo!!!!!

DollyPardonMe
11-06-2008, 02:19 AM
Cracked me up ! That made my day , he was beaming....

I have xray vision and her fingers were actually crossed underneath her desk!
:woohoo:

Chilly Willy
11-06-2008, 04:56 AM
Link, please? :)
There is no link. The theory that Casey spent the night at Lee's on the 15th has been expressed many times on this forum. I disagree with that theory.

diablo
11-06-2008, 05:50 AM
So how does someone 'unwittingly' give a baby an overdose (or any) sedatives?

Casey will say she learned about chloroform form Ricardo. And made some herself to try it for fun, and/or use in sex.
Afterwards she "accidentally" left the rag in the trunk, and later Caylee got in there - or was placed in there - and accidentally overdosed. Then the panic set in and she disposed of the body.

This is their only hope to avoid DP.

dimples37398
11-06-2008, 06:05 AM
I had PPD as well with my middle child who is now 6 years old. I had just turned 24 and was a military wife and had a 2 year old son as well. We were in Kansas where there really wasn't much around...It was my first time away from my family for any long amount of time. We were about 16 hours or so away from Georgia, by car, and my husband had just got back from Saudi Arabia after being over there for 16 months, so we were getting reaquainted and dealing with who did what as far as discipline and my 2 year old.

I realized I needed help pretty quick, and spoke up and told my hubby. I did wait too long, to the point I had to go in the hospital just for medication to start working. After about 1 1/2 weeks I started feeling normal enough to take care of myself and both kids. My hubby and I started counseling, and I did counseling by myself. It was very very hard and I don't minimize the situation of PPD, but I got through it without family except for my hubby. It can be done, and another thing they told me when I first got help for it was that after 1 year Post Birth they don't consider it PPD anymore.

HTH

DebC
11-06-2008, 07:00 AM
Probably wasn't the first time she gave Caylee a sedative, and the poor thing must've built up a tolerance...a little more, a little more, a little more...then this. Nancy Grace isn't the only one who isn't trying to curse tonight.:furious:

I agree. Every time I see the photo of her in the green dress and headscarf, I think that this child has shadows under her eyes that shouldn't really be there.

Patty G
11-06-2008, 07:51 AM
Nancy's 11/5/08 Show Transcript and Video (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2906077&postcount=81)

Crabcake23
11-06-2008, 07:55 AM
Well if the defense is admitting that if she died it would have been an accidental overdose, you can bet that it was not.

100% agree. If it were an accident, then why wait 31 days to call 911? There you go. Premeditated, all the way.

KC needs to be "accidentally overdosed" and stuck in a trunk for 2.6 days. Just sayin.

Elley Mae
11-06-2008, 07:55 AM
I agree. Every time I see the photo of her in the green dress and headscarf, I think that this child has shadows under her eyes that shouldn't really be there.

I've noticed that as well, considering that she supposedly went to bed at 7:30ish (according to Cindy).

Lexington
11-06-2008, 07:58 AM
I don't think KC spent the night @ Lee's.....I think she spent the night (15th)in her car, close by, texting, talking to Tony most of the night.......prolly drugged Caylee so she would sleep & not make noise........the early call from the A's house was CA calling KC after the big fight from the night before.

This is what I think also. I also think that Caylee was dead before any of those phone calls, text messages were made, probably killed in a fit of rage.
I can see her being so shook up by what she had just done that she reached out via her cell from her car, not to confess what she did, but just to make human contact.

Elley Mae
11-06-2008, 08:04 AM
Was it not said by someone that she would park and (stalk) the house. I wonder if she did this at a lot of places?

Crabcake23
11-06-2008, 08:17 AM
a rag?? left in the trunk?

That doesn't make any common sense to me. They're now claiming that it was a chloroform soaked rag left in the trunk and then Caylee was placed in the trunk and accidentally killed this way? Am I reading today's story right?

Because if so, then that raises many questions. One does not just conveniently have a chloroform soaked rag in a car's trunk, and then place their child in that same trunk for whatever reason they're going to allege now, "accidentally" killing her and then neglect to report it for 31 days. No.

Premeditated murder. KC is a monster. Pure and simple.

Pink Panther
11-06-2008, 08:21 AM
Hoping for some documents today! :)

Inana
11-06-2008, 08:26 AM
I really believe Caylee died in the A's house and was placed in the trunk, already dead, on the 16th.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, Casey called Cindy more times on June 16-18 than she had for several weeks prior. And after that she called her being more pleasant saying they were in jacksonville or the story of the accident involving her imaginary friends.

Inana
11-06-2008, 08:28 AM
That doesn't make any common sense to me. They're now claiming that it was a chloroform soaked rag left in the trunk and then Caylee was placed in the trunk and accidentally killed this way? Am I reading today's story right?

Because if so, then that raises many questions. One does not just conveniently have a chloroform soaked rag in a car's trunk, and then place their child in that same trunk for whatever reason they're going to allege now, "accidentally" killing her and then neglect to report it for 31 days. No.

Premeditated murder. KC is a monster. Pure and simple.


It makes more sense to me that once Caylee had died in the house and was put in the trash bag/bags, the chloroform rag was tossed in too, along with anything else she may have used to clean up the scene.

Crabcake23
11-06-2008, 08:50 AM
It makes more sense to me that once Caylee had died in the house and was put in the trash bag/bags, the chloroform rag was tossed in too, along with anything else she may have used to clean up the scene.

Yes, that makes the most sense to me. Killed in the house, then put in the trunk with the evidence. Not placed in the trunk to die or to be just "sedated".

OMG, how can KC do this and not even confess to it? I guess I don't understand how a sociopath thinks.

But you know what? It will be interesting to see the defense spin this one. Like, who conveniently has chloroform in the house?

Edam
11-06-2008, 09:20 AM
I agree. Every time I see the photo of her in the green dress and headscarf, I think that this child has shadows under her eyes that shouldn't really be there.

Nonsense! What about all the pictures that don't show shadows under her eyes?

My friends' child has shadows under her eyes and I assure you, there is nothing sinister about it.

Pegster57
11-06-2008, 09:30 AM
I wonder how/where she put her in the trunk without being seen? If she had ever done it before, wouldn't Caylee have mentioned it to someone? It would have been frightening to be placed in there or wake up in there.

What baffles me is that the evidence points to her having searched for the chloroform ahead of the June 15/16 date. I agree she may have used it on Amy or during sex and had it already made up and ready to go. I don't think she would have been able to get all the ingredients in one days' time to make it a spur of the moment decision. LP's idea that she used it because she forgot to take the Xanax when she left makes sense. I also think she killed her the night of the 15th, especially if they slept in the car. Wouldn't Caylee mention that to George the next morning? It would have been unusual, I'd think. I agree with other posters that she left in a rage, Caylee was probably crying and carrying on that she wanted her grandma (her "real" mom in almost every sense) and Casey lost it and wanted her to shut up.
Either that or she really did go back to the house on the 16th and the flurry of calls was Casey looking for a babysitter (didn't she even call JG and ask if he'd babysit?) and when she couldn't find a sitter, hey - let's try the chloroform. It worked like a charm on Amy...

I just hope if they find the body Casey has to view the remains.

My hubby says she is a dead woman. He says if she goes to prison she will get killed, and if she doesn't she will get killed.

Skully
11-06-2008, 09:30 AM
It makes more sense to me that once Caylee had died in the house and was put in the trash bag/bags, the chloroform rag was tossed in too, along with anything else she may have used to clean up the scene.

I agree, and it took a calculated effort for what she did. She had been drugging her child and she had to research how to make the chloroform and then carry out the steps to make it, and then fight a 2 yr old child to administrate it. I see the DP, no matter how they sugar coat it.:mad:

This stuff is nasty, I don't think it is like in the movies. This was home made stuff, so thing to cut the smell, let alone the burn effect of inhaling this into your body:mad:

jerchers
11-06-2008, 09:40 AM
If she told the truth about what happend to Caylee- where she put her--I would go for life in prison no patrole. Just to put this thing to rest and bring Caylee home. This family is a disgrace and once and for all end all the lies. That poor baby if there is a hell the Anthony will meet there.

DebC
11-06-2008, 09:59 AM
Nonsense! What about all the pictures that don't show shadows under her eyes?

My friends' child has shadows under her eyes and I assure you, there is nothing sinister about it.

You could well be right Edam. It just crossed my mind when I saw that photo. (And the fact that Caylee doesn't have the shadows in all her photos).

SeriouslySearching
11-06-2008, 10:05 AM
It sounds to me like the defense team is simply taking the evidence found and devising a story around it to lessen the severity of the murder charge, imo. They really don't have much to work with in this case as I still do not believe that Casey has told them anything to the effect of sedating the child. It is just their theory they are throwing out in hopes the body is not found and they can temper the aggravating circumstances. They know that LE has the proof Caylee is dead and was in the trunk. It appears they are not going to be able to convince the jury otherwise so they have to work it into the case of accidental overdose. (I don't believe it ever happened.)

I think when they find Caylee, they will possibly find physical injuries to indicate a much different scenario took place. Their defense then will be completely out the window and the death penalty will move forward according to the evidence found at that time.

future criminologist
11-06-2008, 10:08 AM
I posted this in another thread before I realized it was being discussed over here, so sorry for the double post here but - are these attorneys retarded? seriously. they can't say she was taken by kidnappers and still alive AND OD'd and dead. she can't be alive and dead at the same time! so which is it, defense? you gotta stick with a story here. and if you're saying she's dead, then the Anthonys just look like a bunch of a-holes for sticking with the 'alive" statements. either way - I don't see how CA could possibly look sympathetic to a jury. she has no credibility whatsoever and would be a disaster on the stand - does this girl even know how to tell the truth?

SeriouslySearching
11-06-2008, 10:10 AM
Dark shadows under the eyes are not uncommon in a fairskinned child. Allergies alone can cause them. I don't think there is anything there to indicate she had been abused or drugged prior to her disappearance.

Blink34
11-06-2008, 10:12 AM
Dark shadows under the eyes are not uncommon in a fairskinned child. Allergies alone can cause them. I don't think there is anything there to indicate she had been abused or drugged prior to her disappearance.

Very true, boyblinkette gets them at the height of the season

Anais
11-06-2008, 10:13 AM
Dark shadows under the eyes are not uncommon in a fairskinned child. Allergies alone can cause them. I don't think there is anything there to indicate she had been abused or drugged prior to her disappearance.

I know this for a fact as my oldest son had them all the time. However when I look at the last video of Caylee and compared side to side with other photos etc. of her IMO she looks more than a tired baby girl with dark shadows. I also notice serious thinning of her hair and a spacey llok about her that goes beyong tired etc. Something is off about her.

I just have this gut feeling about it!

TxLady2
11-06-2008, 10:14 AM
You're right we don't know, but this DID come from the defense, not the prosecution. Everything, well most everything IS speculation for us at this point, but it is freaking me out because it is SO HORRIFYING and coming from the defense, plus the forensics, I *believe* something like this did happen. Well, I thought it before, but now....


Keep in mind that the defense is not saying this IS what happened... they are only throwing out a possible defense for Casey, to keep the DP off the table. I don't understand why everyone is so emotional over this information, the defense team is just doing what a defense team does... trying to keep Casey from getting the DP. None of us KNOW what happened and probably won't until the trial. IF there IS a trial. For all we know, she could take a plea and get a lesser sentence, and thus, no trial, just sentencing.
And I also want to add... IF Caylee's body is found this weekend, that still may not tell us how she died, because enough time has passed that there won't be much left except bones. A cause of death might not be determined now since there won't be anything to test. I hate to say this, but we may never know exactly what happened to Caylee.

Salem
11-06-2008, 10:26 AM
Dark shadows under the eyes are not uncommon in a fairskinned child. Allergies alone can cause them. I don't think there is anything there to indicate she had been abused or drugged prior to her disappearance.

Except it appears her hair was falling out. If you compare the video pictures of Caylee at the GGparents on July 15th with earlier pictures, especially those of her doing the dance that is on You Tube, it is pretty clear that her hair was thinning at the temples, at least to me. I think this shows Caylee was being given something for a period of time.

If I knew how to get still shots from the videos, I would post a comparison, however I am just not that talented. :confused:

Salem

Salem
11-06-2008, 10:28 AM
I know this for a fact as my oldest son had them all the time. However when I look at the last video of Caylee and compared side to side with other photos etc. of her IMO she looks more than a tired baby girl with dark shadows. I also notice serious thinning of her hair and a spacey llok about her that goes beyong tired etc. Something is off about her.

I just have this gut feeling about it!

Anais - thank you! You are the first person so far that has also seen this thinning of the hair (at least that I know about). It has bothered me from the beginning.

Salem

countzero
11-06-2008, 10:34 AM
After tossing most of the night I thought about this question this morning and I haven't read it brought up here yet.

I didn't hear exactly WHO leaked the memo, although it was referred that JB team did it. Doesn't the defendant have to approve what the defense attorney does and publicly disseminates? I know when the state offers a plea deal the attorney presents it to the defendant and the defendant has the final decision to take it or not. The attorney has to do what the defendant wants, giving advice on whether the deal is good or not, the decision is still the defendants.

So wouldn't KC have to approve the new attorney coming in from Miami to create the 30 page document on why KC should not get the DP. Listening to Kobi and NG toss around the facts and Kobi saying the defense made a wrong move leaking this memo, it leads me to know that KC, GA/CA/LA also know the fact that Caylee is deceased and have known since June that KC did it.

TM and his group will find Caylee.

DebC
11-06-2008, 10:39 AM
Very true, boyblinkette gets them at the height of the season Don't allergies cause the eyes to swell so they look puffy? Caylee's eyes are quite noticeably sunken in that photo.

SeriouslySearching
11-06-2008, 10:54 AM
Don't allergies cause the eyes to swell so they look puffy? Caylee's eyes are quite noticeably sunken in that photo.Not neccessarily. The skin is very thin underneath the eyes. The bluish color or the dark shadows are only indicative of a concentration of blood vessels. There doesn't have to be swelling present. It isn't like a bruise at all. Lack of sleep or restless sleep can cause the darkness, too. It is hereditary, by the way. My grandmother had the same problem along with every blonde in my family. (Concealer is our friend.)

As far as the thinning of Caylee's hair around the temples, there could be various reasons for it and none of it sinister. Some children literally rub or pull their hair in their sleep causing the same affect. I don't see anything which strikes me as unhealthy about Caylee in any of her photos. She looks to be a normal and very healthy child for her age in size and weight.

justbeachy
11-06-2008, 11:03 AM
I'd like to see a photo comparison of the thinning hair issue. We have a pool and my kids are in it constantly. Caylee swam a lot, right? They have a chlorine pool, I believe...they'd have to...it's above ground. I think it can only be chlorine. Chlorine is very damaging to hair (which is why we got a salt system for our pool) so I wonder if she has damage to her hair from that. It dries it out and can cause a lot of breakage (could be perceived as thinning). I'd have to see the photos for myself to get an idea of what we are talking about, though.

As for the dark circles, my son has these SO bad. The doctors insist it is his allergies that causes them. They are called "shiners" according to the pediatrician. I sometimes forget how noticeable it is until I see a photo of him. They can make his eyes look sunken due to the dark shadowing. My daughter also had them when she was young, but it is getting better as she gets older.

impatientredhead
11-06-2008, 11:34 AM
After tossing most of the night I thought about this question this morning and I haven't read it brought up here yet.

I didn't hear exactly WHO leaked the memo, although it was referred that JB team did it. Doesn't the defendant have to approve what the defense attorney does and publicly disseminates? I know when the state offers a plea deal the attorney presents it to the defendant and the defendant has the final decision to take it or not. The attorney has to do what the defendant wants, giving advice on whether the deal is good or not, the decision is still the defendants.

So wouldn't KC have to approve the new attorney coming in from Miami to create the 30 page document on why KC should not get the DP. Listening to Kobi and NG toss around the facts and Kobi saying the defense made a wrong move leaking this memo, it leads me to know that KC, GA/CA/LA also know the fact that Caylee is deceased and have known since June that KC did it.

TM and his group will find Caylee.


The rules are different in a capital case. There are requirements laid out by the ABA that the defense is required to meet regardless of what the client wants. They have to pursue all routes of possible mitigating factors that might keep their client of death row (mental, family history, drug abuse, etc), they are required to find out what plea deals are available to the client... the client does not have to take the deal or agree to the defense plan but the preliminary work MUST be done. I posted a link to the rules somewhere, but can't remember the thread at the moment. But they definitely do not need Casey's approval to file the request to remove the DP from the table. They did not lay out their defense in that document or admit any wrongdoing on her part. Defense would not be doing their job if they didn't follow these steps and would compromise her trial (as well as their standing as a qualified capital defense attorney).

SleuthyMama
11-06-2008, 11:40 AM
Even IF (HUGE if) Casey did this "unwittingly", which I think they're trying to use in place of "unintentionally" - if it was accidental, etc....even overlooking the fact that she never called 911....where is the pain, the grief, the anguish for the loss of her little girl?????? That alone tells me this was no accident. She wanted to be rid of Caylee. She was freaking JOYFUL that month after Caylee died!

The other thing I wanted to mention in relation to this (I apologize if someone has already stated it) is that one evening on NG, I cannot remember which, in talking about the chloroform searches, it was stated, I think by Natisha Lance, that when the NG producers did their own chloroform search, on almost each page that was returned there were warnings all over the place about keeping the stuff AWAY FROM CHILDREN. So how they think they will get away w/ saying that Casey "accidentally" od'd Caylee is beyond me. The minute you see that those warnings are all over the page is the minute you have to know for sure it was intentional MURDER.

Just MOO, of course.

SleuthyMama
11-06-2008, 11:54 AM
I guess I look back to how long supposedly KC stole from her family. I don't see anyone putting up with that unless there is a darned good reason. I think that reason was Caylee. I see KC using Caylee as a poker chip to her parents. I think CA knew full well what KC was capable of. I firmly believe the comment by RP in his interview about CA saying KC was a sociopath. GA admitted that he thought something was fishy about her job. IMO they all walked on egg shells around her for one reason..that being Caylee. JMO.


ITA. I know the Anthony's get a lot of grief for their behavior and by no means am I a fan of theirs but I agree with you, Mommy. They allowed so much to happen before, during and after this horrible tragedy all because they were afraid of losing contact with their precious Caylee.

countzero
11-06-2008, 11:57 AM
The rules are different in a capital case. There are requirements laid out by the ABA that the defense is required to meet regardless of what the client wants. They have to pursue all routes of possible mitigating factors that might keep their client of death row (mental, family history, drug abuse, etc), they are required to find out what plea deals are available to the client... the client does not have to take the deal or agree to the defense plan but the preliminary work MUST be done. I posted a link to the rules somewhere, but can't remember the thread at the moment. But they definitely do not need Casey's approval to file the request to remove the DP from the table. They did not lay out their defense in that document or admit any wrongdoing on her part. Defense would not be doing their job if they didn't follow these steps and would compromise her trial (as well as their standing as a qualified capital defense attorney).


Thanxs for the explanation. There are simply too many threads overlapping at times that it is confusing what info is in what thread. You have answered my question . :clap:

Sometimes NG is great at getting her guests to explain the "rules" and other times she forgets we lay people don't know the "rules" and she just goes into full legal mode. Thankfully, we have many here, like you, that can explain it clearly.

LI_Mom
11-06-2008, 12:24 PM
I guess I look back to how long supposedly KC stole from her family. I don't see anyone putting up with that unless there is a darned good reason. I think that reason was Caylee. I see KC using Caylee as a poker chip to her parents. I think CA knew full well what KC was capable of. I firmly believe the comment by RP in his interview about CA saying KC was a sociopath. GA admitted that he thought something was fishy about her job. IMO they all walked on egg shells around her for one reason..that being Caylee. JMO.

ITA.

Thus the feelings of guilt they all must feel for NOT taking concrete steps to protect Caylee.

Sadly, they still seem to WISH that if they'll just play along with Casey she'll eventually tell them the truth so they might have some closure.

This family has to stop allowing Casey to hold them all hostage. It's too late for them to save Casey & the sooner they admit that to themselves, the better it will be for everyone... even for Casey.

JADEPRINCESS
11-06-2008, 12:54 PM
Sigmund Freud: There is NO such thing as an accident, meaning your subconscious deliberately knows what we are doing but won't admit it to our conscious, in an attempt to mask the intent.
If the Defense is even bringing up the "possibility", you know that's the actual scenerio, they are just testing the waters concerning the death penalty.
I want to see Casey executed on Pay-Per-View!
The memo leaked was done so accidentally, on purpose, I suppose, such an insult to our intelligence.

Maat
11-06-2008, 01:06 PM
There is nothing accidental about giving a child chloroform and putting her in a trunk so that you can play, drink and be with your boyfriend. She had to go out of her way to get the chloroform, she clearly knew the dangers of it because of the web sites she looked up, and she sought no help for Caylee. I hope the prosecutors go for the death penalty.

minazoe
11-06-2008, 03:15 PM
shes a sneaky scurvey spider.

to ever suggest that chloroforming your child is a gentle attempt at sedation is absurd.
to suggest that a 2 year old could be safley chloroformed , yet die accidentally is ridiculous.

to suggest that Casey somehow accomplished this without malice is just plain buffoonery.

passionflower
11-06-2008, 03:57 PM
IMO, defense KNOWS that they canNOT win this one!
Little Caylee didNOT climb in the trunk of car and OD by herself.........
Cold hearted KC did it so she could party! OD KC , an eye for an eye so to speak.
and then all the "A" family covers up for this selfish 'spiteful beach"..........IMO
PRAY they find little Caylee for a Christian burial! not to rot away in a swamp.
BTW, CindyA ..........KC still "mother of the year"?

TURBOTHINK
11-06-2008, 05:05 PM
Did you guys here it said: KC is too YOUNG for the DP!! WTH????

No..........Caylee was TOO YOUNG for the DEATH PENALTY.............

kiki the parrot
11-06-2008, 11:42 PM
Caylee's decomp is connected to KC's trunk. And a search for how to make chloroform is connected to the computer. For all the talk of chloroform-soaked rags though, and poisoned chocolate milk, there is to date nothing specifically linking chloroform to Caylee. Nor is there anything remotely indicating Caylee was ever alive while inside the trunk. Please remember KC has probably stonewalled her own defense too, who are therefore every bit as much in the dark as we are. They are providing this to the Court in their duty to spare her DP--but it represents neither their defense, nor any explanation given by KC, nor the totality of evidence. As explained by others here the defense is just doing it's job by simply providing a list of conceivable, hypothetical scenarios which would not warrant the death penalty. What I learned today from latest docs, especially interview w/ GA has only made me more convinced this was likely drowning due to negligence... but everyone's forgetting that even the mention of "sedatives" or overdose is merely one of a collection of plausible unpremeditated scenarios in which Caylee COULD have potentially lost her life. So... as agonizing as I know this is, we really do need to await the totality of evidence and avoid rushing to judgment. JMHUO

okiedokietoo
11-07-2008, 12:14 AM
well that took all the fun out of this forum......
IMO everyone that posts on here is speculating...unless you post a link to news website etc